#clojure – 2013-11-15

2013-11-15

00:01	swarthy	I'm confused by #'x, i see that it expands to (var x). Is (var) something like a pointer to an object?
00:02	bitemyapp	swarthy: yes but vars are transparent when used.
00:02	bitemyapp	swarthy: vars are how you create references to values
00:02	bitemyapp	swarthy: symbols are how you name vars.
00:03	bitemyapp	swarthy: vars and symbols used to be a singular concept in Common Lisp, Hickey had to separate the two in order to make Lisp-1 + full macros work.
00:04	swarthy	so this is the seperation of identity and value then? (def x 4) thus x == 4 and (var x) == x itself
00:04	swarthy	do I understand that right?
00:04	bitemyapp	well, identity traditionally has been "are these the same pointer?"
00:05	bitemyapp	pretty sure vars are isomorphic in this case, vars are equal if they share the same value, and they're only identical if they're the same var.
00:06	bitemyapp	but they don't have to actually SHARE the same value, just BE the same value.
00:07	swarthy	i see. So this would be used in something like STM maybe. To check if the new and old are the same value before committing the identity of the var to its new value.
00:07	swarthy	i'm trying to understand why something like this exists
00:07	ambroseb_	Ember-: danneu: core.typed has nothing to do with how generic your code is. It catches type errors in your code, no matter what abstraction level you use.
00:08	swarthy	bitemyapp: I'm coming from here: http://mmcgrana.github.io/2010/08/clj-http-clojure-http-client.html very last item (def request...)
00:08	swarthy	bitemyapp: wondering what the #'core/request signifies
00:08	TimMc	swarthy: A var is a mutable pointer; a symbol is the name of a var. (Symbols don't have to name vars, of course.)
00:08	bitemyapp	swarthy: that's indirection so it doesn't retain the original value
00:08	bitemyapp	swarthy: so you can dereference it upon use
00:09	bitemyapp	swarthy: often needed for things like app reloading...
00:09	bitemyapp	swarthy: think about it, without indirection, how can you swap things out so your server uses the new handler code?
00:09	bitemyapp	vars are why you can overwrite/monkeypatch arbitrary data.
00:09	bitemyapp	even if you shouldn't abuse that as a first-order programming methodology.
00:10	bitemyapp	swarthy: is it all beginning to come together now?
00:10	swarthy	yes it is more tangible at least
00:10	swarthy	thanks!
00:10	bitemyapp	swarthy: you have a REPL. Take your weapon, strike down your unknowns.
00:10	bitemyapp	swarthy: test it!
00:10	bitemyapp	swarthy: experiment!
00:12	swarthy	ah i see. (def x 5) (def y #'x) (println @y)
00:20	TimMc	(inc bitemyapp)
00:20	lazybot	⇒ 12
00:25	sshack	Can anyone here help me out with a simple clojure problem.
00:26	Adeon	only after you present your simple clojure problem
00:26	sshack	I've got a leon project with a few different files. foo.bar, foo.baz. I run a leon repo and it loads foor.bar namespace, but then I cannot access foo.baz namespace no matter what I try.
00:27	sshack	foo.baz/quux (use 'foo.baz) both spit out errors.
00:28	sshack	I am clearly missing something. Can anyone give me some pointers?
00:28	swarthy	What are the errors?
00:37	sshack	Exception lib names inside prefix lists must not contain periods clojure.core/load-lib
00:39	swarthy	paste the code you are tyring to run/execute and the error on refheap.com. I'm still new myself so I'll need to see as much as possible to help
00:45	swarthy	sshack: this may be helpful to you - http://blog.8thlight.com/colin-jones/2010/12/05/clojure-libs-and-namespaces-require-use-import-and-ns.html
00:47	sshack	See, even what I think are fully qualified function calls don't seem to work.
00:47	swarthy	so you 'lein new myapp' then cd myapp then 'lein repl' (+ 1 2)
00:48	swarthy	do you get 3?
00:48	sshack	Yeah. It's only my own functions that have this problem.
00:49	swarthy	where have you saved these files? When you (use) or (require) those files in they need to have a (ns) declaration that co-responds to the directory structure. And that directory structure needs to be on your java classpath.
00:49	sshack	myapp/foo.clj
00:50	sshack	erm src/myapp/foo.clj
00:51	sshack	https://www.refheap.com/20900
00:52	sshack	https://www.refheap.com/20901 <- With code this time.
00:54	swarthy	I don't think your testapp.foo is compiled.
00:54	swarthy	I'm trying to figure out how to do that at the repl.
00:55	swarthy	try (compile 'testapp.foo)
00:55	swarthy	then what you did before
00:57	sshack	Okay, now that is stupid.
00:59	sshack	So why do I have to compile this?
00:59	swarthy	Clojure is a compiled language.
00:59	swarthy	but also try (use 'foo.bar :reload-all)
01:00	swarthy	replace foo.bar with what you have
01:00	sshack	And why wasn't that mentioned in any tutorial somewhere?
01:00	swarthy	You should use LightTable when you are first getting started.
01:00	swarthy	It will make working with it all super easy.
01:02	swarthy	The way clojure works is that you write a mystuff.clj which gets compiled to a series of .class files. .class files are what the JVM uses for bytecode. Doing all of this manually at the repl is a pain. So most people use Emacs or some other editor to do it for them. I suggest LightTable again, it is free and very easy to use.
01:02	swarthy	You just open your project folder. then press ctrl-enter to evaluate your code
01:02	swarthy	and the results show up right next to it
01:02	sshack	I'm still missing something as I know I've done this in the past.
01:02	sshack	Yeah, I know about lt.
01:03	swarthy	What do you know you have done?
01:04	sshack	Loaded all my code and called functions in a different ns.
01:07	swarthy	you could (require 'myapp.foo) then (myapp.foo/bar x) should work
01:08	swarthy	or (require '[myapp.foo :as foo]) then use (foo/bar x)
01:11	`cbp_	why is haskell so hard lol
01:12	`cbp_	worst syntax ;-;
01:17	danneu	i could never find a good workflow with haskell
01:17	danneu	especially when i'm used to evaluating the line i'm looking at in a file with cloclo
01:23	brainproxy	cloclo?
01:23	sshack	swarthy Right. So my problem seems to come down entirely to my code vs others code.
01:24	sshack	I can use/require other peoples code and iw works perfectly. But clojure seemingly just won't find my code at least at the repl.
01:24	sshack	But that's enough for tonight. I"m starting to make mistakes.
01:25	swarthy	yeah, ask tomorrow during the day. More experienced people will be around and I am sure they can sort you out!
01:41	bitemyapp	arrdem: alright, Linux machine gets a monopoly on the KVM for awhile, I need to get some work done ^_^
01:41	bitemyapp	arrdem: stealing your idea (mostly)
02:16	Ember-	ambroseb_: yes, I know that
02:16	Ember-	but type checking can do sanity checking for you
02:17	Ember-	if your function just wants map as a parameter and nothing else will do then type checking is way to go
02:17	Ember-	and that was the original problem mentioned
02:18	Ember-	that guy was worried that if he writes more clojure code into single codebase he will lose track of what his functions should take as parameter
02:18	Ember-	and I tried to tell him that he needs to change the way he thinks about his function signatures in general
02:18	Ember-	but there are cases when you need to be explicit and that's a great place for either contracts or typed clojure
02:19	Ember-	where typed clojure of course is way more comprehensive choice
02:45	ambroseb_	Ember-: I don't understand the thinking that just because we're in a dynamic language most of our functions should have some defined behaviour for any parameter type. I'd say the overwhelming majority of functions (both library & user defined) have more specific types than Any as parameters, so it's a valid concern to lose track of this information.
02:45	ambroseb_	whether these functions blow up or have undefined behaviour on weird input is another matter
02:51	bitemyapp	ambroseb_: interfaces that actually need to handle such a thing usually break out into discrete type dispatch eventually anyway
02:52	Ember-	ambroseb_: I agree what you say, maybe I expressed myself badly
02:52	bitemyapp	there's a pretty narrow range of things that truly dynamic functions can express that are awkward in a static type system and that range gets narrower by the year.
02:53	Ember-	what I was trying to say that it is a good thing to be able to accept many different datastructures if that's what your function takes
02:53	Ember-	when it makes sense
02:53	Ember-	and in clojure world you usually want to pass around datastructures
02:54	Ember-	when I've taught Clojure for Java programmers I've noticed that is the no. 1 problem they are facing
02:54	Ember-	they have hard time to grasp the fact that in Clojure you want to operate on data structures, not on some specific types containing your data
02:54	bitemyapp	Ember-: that doesn't actually happen very often.
02:54	bitemyapp	at best, you're writing functions for data that is vaguely "mappy" or vaguely "iterable"
02:55	bitemyapp	these are concepts trivially reified in a static type system that isn't made of ass and fail like Java's
02:55	Ember-	bitemyapp: true, but that doesn't mean that isn't a good thing when it's possible
02:55	bitemyapp	then when somebody passes a "mappy" thing or "iterable'ish" thing to your function that doesn't satisfy all of your constraints, you can fuckin' fix it instead of getting cryptic exceptions.
02:56	bitemyapp	Ember-: you get a lot more mileage out of knowing things than you do not knowing things.
02:56	Ember-	of course
02:56	bitemyapp	Ember-: dynamic type systems are like wearing a blind fold so that when you scoop food out of random bowls into your mouth you don't have to know what you're eating
02:56	Ember-	like I said, I expressed myself badly obviously
02:56	bitemyapp	Ember-: there are many wonderful things about Clojure, none of them have to do with having a primitive type system.
02:57	Ember-	and that must be the reason why I said typed clojure is great, right?
02:57	Ember-	I do know all of these things
02:57	bitemyapp	this conversation isn't for just you and I
02:57	bitemyapp	sometimes I expound on things just to disseminate ideas
02:58	bitemyapp	same reason I tweet things.
02:58	Ember-	I've written clojure professionally and while doing that I've faced situations where I want to be extremely strict about the parameters my function can take
02:58	Ember-	but I've also faced situations where all I care is some little thing in the parameter and rest can be whatever
02:59	Ember-	the latter has always been more generic and used in more places
02:59	bitemyapp	you always care, it's just a question of how much you're thinking about it
02:59	bitemyapp	the only time you truly don't care about your parameters or data you're using is when you're not actually using them
02:59	Ember-	yeah, if you don't care then you don't need that function
02:59	bitemyapp	you're always relying on something to be true
02:59	bitemyapp	the question is how specific and well thought out those things are
03:00	Ember-	yes, but my original statement comes from the guys coming from static typed world
03:00	Ember-	especially java guys
03:00	bitemyapp	java doesn't represent anything good or interesting about static type systems
03:00	Ember-	since they just can't think that's a real option to not be completely strict
03:00	bitemyapp	Java as a language is a vehicle for hate, fear, and human misery.
03:00	Ember-	hehe
03:01	Ember-	it has many, many things done wrong
03:01	Ember-	but it is better than some alternatives :)
03:01	Ember-	take PHP for example
03:01	Ember-	or C++
03:02	Ember-	everything is relative to where you compare it
03:02	Ember-	if you compare java to clojure or haskell then yes, I agree with you completely
03:03	bitemyapp	Clojure doesn't meaningfully have a type system, so it doesn't belong on that spectrum.
03:03	Ember-	especially to haskell since we were talking about static typing
03:03	bitemyapp	Clojure has a type system like a bald man has a hair style.
03:04	Ember-	but this conversation is pointless, we obviously think likewise
03:04	Ember-	I need to work :P
03:04	bitemyapp	Ember-: I need to write Haskell code, soothe my soul :P
03:05	Ember-	bitemyapp: feel sorry for me, I'm writing Java
03:05	Ember-	my last project was with Clojure :(
03:05	Ember-	oh, and it's a legacy system
03:05	bitemyapp	Ember-: I'm sorry to hear that. My current project (wrapping up right now) at work is in Clojure, next one is likely to involve Clojure but I can't be sure how much.
03:05	Ember-	so, legacy system written in Java
03:06	bitemyapp	There's some legacy at my company, but it's Python and a startup so only so much pain is possible.
03:06	Ember-	I've tried to convince the customer that certain parts would make sense if it was in Clojure (which it would)
03:06	Ember-	but they think that's something bad and hipster
03:06	Ember-	same as they think WebLogic is great
03:07	Ember-	even though I presented them with arguments that it isn't and it's actually just costing them a lot of money for nothing
03:07	Ember-	and making our lives more miserable
03:07	bitemyapp	Ember-: you need to find a new customer or rejigger that relationship yo.
03:07	bitemyapp	Life is too short to write Java.
03:07	Ember-	fortunately I get out of this project by the end of the year
03:07	bitemyapp	Good.
03:08	bitemyapp	Ember-: my current life improvement goal is getting out of the bay area. I've heard good things about Seattle, Portland, and Austin.
03:08	bitemyapp	I don't know how soon a departure could happen, it's looking like a 1-2 year goal.
03:08	Ember-	well, I live in Finland :)
03:09	bitemyapp	Ember-: I don't know if I would be very happy working as a programmer outside of the US.
03:10	bitemyapp	I guess there are some Haskell and Clojure companies outside of the US, but it can be harder to find.
03:10	Ember-	bitemyapp: very true
03:11	Ember-	but fortunately in Finland Clojure is raising it's head hard
03:11	Ember-	quite a many companies have either started using it or are considering
03:11	Ember-	Haskell is still in minority
03:11	bitemyapp	Ember-: JVM host for Clojure helping there I imagine?
03:12	bitemyapp	I think people overestimate the usefulness of being on the JVM, personally, but if it sells it sells.
03:13	TEttinger	bitemyapp, it's been a pretty huge selling point for me, since I learned Java before any lisps
03:14	TEttinger	it does let me back into comfortable mutable java libs for tasks where that makes sense
03:14	bitemyapp	TEttinger: I came to Clojure from Python and learned Haskell concurrently. The JVM was a wash for me. It seems to have helped bootstrap some libraries more quickly, but a lot of the libraries have ugliness hiding under the covers.
03:14	TEttinger	yes.
03:15	bitemyapp	I could name a few that have given me grief as a result
03:15	TEttinger	but would it be better anywhere else?
03:15	bitemyapp	TEttinger: Python and Haskell's libraries were typically a clean break except in the case of some underlying C, pretty happy with that.
03:16	TEttinger	my only real issue with clojure on the JVM is that a significant group of end users do not have any sort of java installed, and bundling a JVM is ugh.
03:16	bitemyapp	Another reason I'm meh about the JVM is that I really like having fast-starting binaries.
03:16	bitemyapp	or scripts.
03:16	TEttinger	that too.
03:17	bitemyapp	I do a lot of odd-and-end scripting/automation/binary distribution/dev-opsy stuff
03:17	bitemyapp	Clojure is...not great for that.
03:17	bitemyapp	I end up setting up a REPL and trying to do what I need to do in "batch"
03:17	bitemyapp	which works okay up to a point, but it's not really what I want.
03:22	Ember-	bitemyapp: indeed, that's the reason
03:22	Ember-	and the fact that you can call java code from clojure easily
03:22	Ember-	so there's an existing ecosystem
03:23	Ember-	sure, a lot of java code is so bad when you think it from clojure side of things that you don't want to call it
03:23	Ember-	but that is a compelling argument anyway for management
04:30	ambrosebs	isn't the docstring for iterate incorrect?
04:30	ambrosebs	,(doc iterate)
04:30	clojurebot	"([f x]); Returns a lazy sequence of x, (f x), (f (f x)) etc. f must be free of side-effects"
04:30	ambrosebs	(class (iterate + 1))
04:30	ambrosebs	,(class (iterate + 1))
04:30	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
04:30	ambrosebs	that's not a LazySeq
04:33	ambrosebs	the implementation looks fishy
04:33	ambrosebs	(cons x (lazy-seq ...)) vs (lazy-seq (cons x ...))
04:34	ambrosebs	second arity of reductions has the same problem
04:40	ambrosebs	Cons is just as lazy as LazySeq right?
04:40	ambrosebs	so this is probably not a problem.
04:41	ambrosebs	from a typing perspective, I'm not sure what to give the return type of iterate as
04:41	ambrosebs	I guess ISeq or ASeq
04:41	ambrosebs	in fact LazySeq sounds optimistic for any sequence operation return type
04:42	ambrosebs	like Cons, LazySeq is just an implementation of ASeq
04:44	clgv	ambrosebs: no. you are right. cons is not lazy. the first element of that sequence is already realized
04:44	ambrosebs	clgv: well it's already realised by passing to iterate.
04:44	ambrosebs	but yes
04:45	clgv	ambrosebs: yeah that's true. but we are arguing about the properties of the return value
04:46	clgv	ambrosebs: I wonder if that is supposed to be some (pre-mature?) optimization
04:46	ambrosebs	clgv: it seems unlikely, the first arity of repeat has the same idiom but backwards
04:47	ambrosebs	I think it's just an unintentional inconsistency. The big question for me: what does the documentation mean exactly by "returns a lazy sequence".
04:47	clgv	ambrosebs: well, than I'd regard it as an error but with most likely no practical implications
04:48	clgv	ambrosebs: the documentation clearly shoots for the behaviour repeat exposes
04:49	ambrosebs	There are Seqs that are never lazy at all right? So a "lazy sequence" must mean a LazySeq I guess
04:49	ambrosebs	I mean, a partially lazy Cons is even incorrect, but yea.
04:50	ambrosebs	Hmm actually is there an implementation of ISeq that is eager?
04:51	ambrosebs	probably not relevant.
05:10	clgv	ambrosebs: yes. PersistentList implements ISeq ;)
05:11	ambrosebs	clgv: :)
07:08	djpowell	Hmm, sourcemaps don't work on Windows, under advanced mode, or various other combinations of options
07:09	djpowell	Seems to be to do with the relative path munging and backslashes and stuff
08:08	jamiei_	Does anyone know how to set the series labels for a multiple series time series chart with incanter? Setting the :series-label property does not produce the outcome I expect.
08:56	danielszmulewicz	IRC is quiet because everybody's at the clojure_conj?
08:56	danielszmulewicz	:-)
08:56	danielszmulewicz	jealous
08:56	Ember-	no, I'm cursing Java code
09:00	mdrogalis	danielszmulewicz: Correct.
09:01	danielszmulewicz	mdrogalis: :)
09:04	clgv	danielszmulewicz: it's wakeup time for those in GMT - 8 I guess ;)
09:06	danielszmulewicz	Oh right. I always forget
09:30	ambrosebs	is it clojure_conj because it sounds like conf, or (into conference people) ? :)
09:31	cark	because it's conj'ing people together ?
09:31	mdrogalis	Hah, ambrosebs
09:31	echo-area	Which http client would you suggest? http-kit, clj-http, or http.async.client?
09:32	ambrosebs	cark: (into conference people) is the same as (apply conj conference people) :)
09:32	cark	if a little obfuscated !
09:34	cark	you know what, i never used conj with more than one item to be conj'ed
09:34	cark	didn't even know it was possible
09:34	cark	been using clojure since before 1.0
09:34	cark	...
09:35	mdrogalis	I recently learned you can do:
09:35	mdrogalis	,(assoc [1 2] 0 3)
09:35	clojurebot	[3 2]
09:35	mdrogalis	Had no idea assoc could do that.
09:35	cark	,(get [1 2] 1)
09:35	clojurebot	2
09:36	cark	i'd say it's vectors that can do it
09:36	mdrogalis	You get my point :P
09:36	cark	hehe yep
09:38	philandstuff	vectors are Associative
09:42	clgv	ambrosebs: no, `into` uses transients and is more efficient ;)
09:42	clgv	ambrosebs: I thought the "conj"ing together people might be the reason...
09:43	clgv	ambrosebs: is there a "clojure cons" in front of the toillets at "clojure conj"? ;)
09:44	ambrosebs	clgv: :)
09:47	Aim_Here	The "clojure dissoc" happens when people decide to form squabbling factions and excommunicate each other from the Clojure community
09:47	cark	disj !
09:48	mdrogalis	Heh
09:53	uruviel	Hey, what would be the good way of matching rules for unknownly deep maps with core.logic? Say unify ?p with {:foo {:bar {:baz p}}} or {:foo {:baz p}}
09:56	ambrosebs	uruviel: sounds like a recursive conde? it's been so long since I've used core.logic, that's all I've got :)
09:57	hiredman	uruviel: I like recursive goals with feature rec, I assume you are matching something tree like, like the output of clojure.xml/parse
09:59	arrdem	echo-area: clj-http is what I see getting the most use... but they all do the same job.
09:59	uruviel	ambrosebs: thank, I'll take a look. basically what I'm after is that I have some input map (from XML or JSON) and want to trigger some rules based on "what kinda looks like" (i.e. I'd like to be as ignorant as possible about the structure of the data)
09:59	uruviel	*thank you
09:59	echo-area	arrdem: I got the same idea on a stackoverflow page. Thank you!
09:59	uruviel	I thought core.logic might be an interesting fit, I looked into core.match but it doesn't seem to handle nested maps that well
10:14	uruviel	hiredman: is there some documentation on recursive goals somewhare? (been a while since I did logic programming, and even that was in prolog)
10:35	mikerod	why are dynamic bindings in `binding` bound in parallel as opposed to sequential, like `let`
10:35	mikerod	I'm just curious in the motivation in working opposite to `let`
11:02	technomancy	mikerod: IIRC it's only possible to do it efficiently for let
11:05	zerokarmaleft	hmm, wouldn't it have more to do with the difference b/w binding and let wrt lexical scope rather than efficiency?
11:06	technomancy	IIRC to do it efficiently dynamically you have to push bindings as a whole
11:06	technomancy	because binding macroexpands to push-thread-bindings?
11:10	zerokarmaleft	technomancy: yea, all the value-exprs-to-be-bound have to be evaluated before push-thread-bindings
11:24	clgv	it is amazing how badly you miss clojure when you have to use R to extract data from their binary "Rdata" format...
11:26	mikerod	so it is just more efficient to push-thread-bindings in bulk?
11:27	pjstadig	there are some sticky issues with popping bindings if you push them one at a time
11:27	pjstadig	like if you get an exception poping one of the bindings, then what do you do with the rest
11:28	pjstadig	but probably it's more to do with efficiency i guess
11:30	technomancy	it's actually more surprising to me that you can let-bind efficiently one at a time
11:47	mikerod	interetsing
11:47	mikerod	interesting*
11:49	danneu	Adding a slight background and underline to clojure function-names in definitions is life-changing
11:51	mikerod	danneu: visually?
11:51	danneu	http://i.imgur.com/Cen1sIG.png
11:52	danneu	no more hunting for the fn name
11:52	mikerod	yeah, that makes it a bit more obvious
11:53	danneu	might even make it <marquee>
12:15	danneu	putting tests in ^{:test _} meta is also pretty awesome in the early stages of a project. that way functions are portable in a time when you're not yet sure how you're going to actually split up namespaces or what your abstraction will look like
12:15	danneu	(while my monologue is on the subject of recent things i've started doing)
12:17	danneu	feel free to siphon some of my awesomeness into your own projects.
12:17	danneu	plenty to go around
12:17	xificurC	hi i'm trying to install cider for emacs 24 on slackware 14 with no luck. package-install throws an "Error during download request: not found" and el-get-install doesn't show cider as an option, only nrepl
12:18	technomancy	xificurC: nrepl.el from marmalade still works well
12:19	xificurC	technomancy: so theres no need to go for cider? I was out for a couple of months
12:21	danneu	xificurC: id just roll with nrepl
12:22	technomancy	I don't think there's any need to switch unless there's a specific bug you're running into that's been fixed in the past few weeks
12:22	xificurC	I remember now that I couldnt get nrepl working well on this machine before, sigh
12:23	xificurC	i think the best i could do was run an nrepl session via leiningen and then jack in
12:23	xificurC	nope, I dont have leiningen, must have been another machine.. and leiningen wont install either
12:24	danneu	i dont think that's so painful a workaround if you really have to do that
12:24	danneu	as long as everything's operational after that like nrepl-eval-buffer
12:24	technomancy	I doubt cider will have fixed that
12:25	danneu	xificurC: what would actually happen when you'd nrepl-jack-in?
12:25	xificurC	danneu: that aws on a different machine, i have bigger problems here :)
12:26	xificurC	gosh im a noob at slackware
12:28	danneu	you must be pretty patient if youre willing to set up a development environment on an OS you're not so familiar with
12:28	xificurC	ill have to update jdk first but the tarball md5sum is failing
12:29	arrdem	danneu: he'll fit in nicely... as evidenced by chord we have the patience of saints here.
12:29	xificurC	danneu: i got clojure or common lisp running on slackware,win xp, win 7 and maybe even pcbsd
12:31	xificurC	so you cant wget jdk, thats a nice one
12:31	danneu	arrdem: good point
12:32	xificurC	that explains the md5sum failure and why the jdk tarball had 175kB. A small implementation indeed
12:33	danneu	i dont know why i so quickly dismissed the wooly yaks that graze on the plains of OS idiosyncrasies
12:34	xificurC	and I already have 2 jdks on my machine, how brave of me
12:35	xificurC	shouldnt leiningen compile on 7u21?
12:40	xificurC	how can i uninstall a previous version of nrepl?
12:41	mpwd	xificurC: Maybe try rm -r the offending directory in ~/.m2/repository/
12:42	mpwd	Does anyone know the fastest JSON parsing library for clojure?
12:43	mtp	is json parsing a measurable bottleneck in your code?
12:43	mtp	until that is 'yes', i wouldn't bother fretting over finding the fastest one
12:45	indigo	Oh PHP https://www.refheap.com/20921
12:45	notsteve	mpwd: have you tried the clojure version? https://github.com/clojure/data.json it's a pretty save bet
12:46	indigo	mpwd: Cheshire is pretty good too https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire
12:51	arrdem	indigo: .... WTFPHP
12:51	indigo	arrdem: I know right
12:52	arrdem	indigo: it's great because I can't even justify it at all. I'm really really curious why that's the case.
12:54	indigo	arrdem: Yeah... I have no idea as well. Maybe some backwards compat crap?
12:55	indigo	Maybe I should ask in ##php
12:55	indigo	:P
12:56	S11001001	arrdem: null converts to 0
12:57	S11001001	oh, no, that doesn't make sense.
12:58	`cbp	anyone using http-kit websockets, i use the .toString method on channels to log connections but sometimes I get clients like #<AsyncChannel 0.0.0.0/0.0.0.0:8080<->null> why would that be
13:10	indigo	arrdem: I asked and they just redirected me to the comparisons operator page :\|
13:11	S11001001	indigo: they probably did you a favor; the php docs are about the only sane thing in php land
13:11	mpwd	mtp: No, but we are using it for serialization and there are several libraries, so I just wanted the fastest. I figure I'll just go with cheshire
13:11	indigo	Hehe yep
13:11	arrdem	S11001001: haha yeah that's why I'm entertained by this.
13:12	arrdem	indigo: is nil < -Inf ?
13:13	indigo	arrdem: For which language
13:14	S11001001	arrdem, indigo: ah, I see. The 2nd case is applicable: left operand is null, right is anything: convert to bool, false < true
13:14	arrdem	indigo: php
13:15	arrdem	S11001001: okay. that makes sense at least.
13:15	indigo	arrdem: True
13:17	arrdem	,(#'clojure.pprint/cl-format "~b" -1)
13:17	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: clojure.pprint/cl-format in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:17	indigo	I was all "nil.. Ruby? Clojure?"
13:17	arrdem	,(do (use 'clojure.pprint) (cl-format "~b" -1))
13:17	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
13:19	xificurC	so it only took an hour or two to get nrepl running
13:19	arrdem	,(do (use 'clojure.pprint) (cl-format nil "~b" -1))
13:19	arrdem	clojurebot: ping
13:19	clojurebot	"-1"
13:19	clojurebot	PONG!
13:19	devn	anyone know where exp and pow come from in overtone?
13:26	`cbp	yogthos: hi
13:35	upwardindex	Any way to make git a little bit more smart with sexps ?
13:38	joegallo	http://wandrian.net/2012-03-11-1727-custom-git-hunk-headers-for-lisp.html this is useful
13:38	joegallo	it's just a minor improvement, though
13:39	joegallo	there are also some command line flags you can use to ignore whitespace changes, which make it easier to deal with the addition of a wrapping form that changes indentation on a bunch of lines
13:47	upwardindex	joegallo: thank you that will help a bit
13:50	pjstadig	upwardindex: i find this useful
13:50	pjstadig	i forget what it does https://github.com/pjstadig/new.dotfiles/blob/master/.gitconfig#L23
13:51	pjstadig	it helps git find a useful chunk of text to show at the top of a diff
13:51	pjstadig	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3409526/customizing-headings-in-git-diff
13:51	joegallo	yeah, technically what pjstadig has is the same setup as i have.
13:52	joegallo	which is an amazing coincidence
13:52	pjstadig	haha, yeah that is an amazing coincidence
13:52	pjstadig	if only i actually read chats before i opened my big mouth
13:56	joegallo	heh, no worries, brotha
13:57	arrdem	didn't someone put together a custom git frontend that actually stored Clojure code structurally rather than textually?
13:57	arrdem	woulda sworn I saw that on HN a few months ago...
13:58	pjstadig	arrdem: don't know. rich did codeq
14:01	bitemyapp	arohner: that was Codeq which is built on Datomic.
14:01	bitemyapp	errr...arrdem ^^
14:02	bitemyapp	arrdem: also Seangrove made a web frontend to that I believe.
14:02	arrdem	bitemyapp: ah. that makes sense.
14:02	bitemyapp	arrdem: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/Fs6AHk5hA_k
14:02	arrdem	I really want to play with that...
14:02	bitemyapp	arrdem: http://blog.datomic.com/2012/10/codeq.html
14:03	bitemyapp	arrdem: so go play with it
14:03	arrdem	soo many yaks so little time..
14:04	danenania	does the closure compiler munge object keys created with (js-ob)? getting an error only in advanced mode that seems to be caused by munging
14:05	danenania	if so, is there a way to stop it doing so? can i annotate string keys with ^:export?
14:06	danenania	apparently i can't annotate string keys
14:08	bitemyapp	danenania: don't do that.
14:08	bitemyapp	danenania: wait, nevermind, you're doing something else, sorry.
14:11	seangrove	arrdem: Not perfect, might be fun for you to play with http://www.jidaexplorer.com/
14:12	arrdem	seangrove: haha thanks for the link
14:12	seangrove	... or Codeqsplorer
14:13	arrdem	idk. I feel like structural version control is a good thing, and I also have this feeling that issue tracking and version control should be integrated into a single system.
14:13	technomancy	arrdem: I've read a bit about it, but last I checked all the research in the area of tree-aware version control was around XML =\
14:14	arrdem	vc backed support for literate as long as I'm dreaming...
14:14	seangrove	danenania: I don't think that closure will munge string keys
14:15	danenania	seangrove: just discovered that apparently it does unless using aset/aget http://squirrel.pl/blog/2013/03/28/two-ways-to-access-properties-in-clojurescript/
14:15	arrdem	technomancy: that's most unfortunate...
14:15	technomancy	indeed
14:16	seangrove	danenania: Very interesting, I was just looking at the implementation of js-obj, but that explanation makes sense
14:17	bitemyapp	arrdem: issue tracking is a workflow issue and people are too persnickety about it. Version control should be neutral territory.
14:17	bitemyapp	arrdem: "complecting" things together instead of making composable tools isn't the answer.
14:18	bitemyapp	Having too much shit rolled into the same thing is part of what made Fossil terrible.
14:18	seangrove	arrdem: I agree with bitemyapp, but I would very much like to see what a structurally-aware vc looks like
14:18	bitemyapp	structurally aware VC would be great, I just don't think you need to throw JIRA into it.
14:19	seangrove	Yeup.
14:19	arrdem	bitemyapp: I guess so. Really all I want is an issue tracking system that integrates nicely with my entirely emacs/zsh based workflow. The real answer is probably to just run a $ROOT/.git and an ignored $ROOT/issues/ with a seperate .git...
14:19	bitemyapp	arrdem: that's org-mode dude.
14:20	seangrove	Hrm, pondering storing edn in a postgres field vs figuring out how to use the native hstore...
14:20	technomancy	bitemyapp: only if you want to get issue reports from emacs users only
14:20	technomancy	"it's a feature, not a bug"
14:20	arrdem	^ this
14:20	arrdem	wait. no. ^^^ that.
14:20	bitemyapp	I didn't know other people were a prerequisite.
14:21	technomancy	bitemyapp: spoken like a bona-fide CL hacker!
14:21	bitemyapp	seangrove: is it a simple KV query pattern or do you need to query the contents?
14:21	bitemyapp	technomancy: well, I legitimately didn't know arrdem needed anybody but himself to use his issue tracking.
14:21	technomancy	bitemyapp: maybe I'm projecting my own desires
14:21	technomancy	wouldn't be the first time
14:21	arrdem	bitemyapp: I don't, but technomancy's got my number on this one.
14:22	seangrove	bitemyapp: k:v with arrays as values, I'm thinking. Querying is nice, but not a requirement. I'll have some background workers chewing through the database constantly updating queryable fields
14:22	seangrove	arrdem: I don't know if it's a tome as much as a blackhole
14:22	technomancy	arrdem: https://github.com/technomancy/edgestow <- doesn't actually work, but
14:22	seangrove	It just keeps going
14:23	bitemyapp	seangrove: then either way can work, but the reason for using HStore is so you query against the contents.
14:23	technomancy	seangrove: org is another whole emacs within emacs
14:23	bitemyapp	you could make a structural version control system as long as you decided on some universal concepts
14:23	bitemyapp	and made a language plugin system
14:23	seangrove	bitemyapp: Yeah, I'm wondering if it's going to be a nightmare to figure out how to use hstore from clojure and thus should be put off until later...
14:24	arrdem	technomancy: this is evil. I love it.
14:24	technomancy	seangrove: I tried using hstore from clojure a while back
14:24	technomancy	it was pretty awkward
14:24	technomancy	had to pull in a crazy adapter class from a random openstreetmap jar
14:24	technomancy	maybe it's gotten better?
14:24	bitemyapp	technomancy: not especially.
14:25	seangrove	technomancy: Sounds like I should 100% avoid it then, thank you for that anecdote
14:25	bitemyapp	seangrove: in a situation where you want to store edn, you're generally looking at a datomic or document store oriented access pattern.
14:25	technomancy	https://github.com/heroku/buildkits/blob/master/project.clj#L15
14:25	technomancy	this was like a year ago
14:26	seangrove	bitemyapp: Yeah, it's occurred to me. I've got a live demo coming up Monday and need to get things done, but I'll have to sit you down and talk about the schema/workload and hear your thoughts on bringing datomic in the mix
14:26	bitemyapp	`cbp: so, projects. Made any decisions as to what you want to work on?
14:26	`cbp	bitemyapp: nope =p
14:27	seangrove	technomancy: Thanks again, really saved my day/weekend I think.
14:27	technomancy	np
14:27	technomancy	the new json stuff looks nicer, but no idea re: jdbc support
14:27	bitemyapp	`cbp: lightweight composable SQL library, possibly with hstore/json support etc
14:28	bitemyapp	`cbp: let me dig up my list
14:28	`cbp	maybe a haskell-powered blog and get my dissertation done at the same time!
14:28	bitemyapp	`cbp: there's grom
14:28	bitemyapp	`cbp: http://github.com/bitemyapp/grom/
14:28	seangrove	technomancy: Yeah, pvh got me on on a pg kick a few years ago and definitely love it, but it can be hard to take advantage of a lot of the pg-specific features from clojure
14:28	bitemyapp	`cbp: grom is an nREPL client in Haskell
14:29	technomancy	oh yeah pvh is super helpful
14:29	bitemyapp	I'm a big fan of PostgreSQL myself.
14:32	seangrove	technomancy: He's definitely not long on clojure though. Laughed at me quite a few times when we switched over.
14:32	technomancy	M-x eyeroll
14:32	bitemyapp	`cbp: I had an idea for Erlang style OTP in Clojure, but I think Immutant is kinda covering that
14:32	seangrove	I would have thought you and mark would have done a better job indoctrinating the faithful there :P
14:32	bitemyapp	seangrove: from what?
14:32	bitemyapp	seangrove: mark went over to the Go camp a long time ago
14:32	technomancy	seangrove: I'm not really "there"
14:33	technomancy	there's a pretty huge disconnect between remotes and locals
14:33	bitemyapp	`cbp: Scala School for Clojure, Wrap ssh/jsch with something nicer (core.async?), Swagger support
14:33	bitemyapp	`cbp: Leiningen test selectors in the REPL
14:33	technomancy	bitemyapp: well
14:34	technomancy	bitemyapp: all of `lein test` turned into a library, really
14:34	bitemyapp	`cbp: SMTP -> Database/Search Engine
14:34	technomancy	test selectors alone would be a bit half-assed
14:34	bitemyapp	`cbp: zero-config in-memory lucene index (Clucy?)
14:34	seangrove	technomancy: Ah, bummer to hear that. Used to be the top place I wanted to work.
14:35	bitemyapp	`cbp: any of those strike you?
14:35	technomancy	yeah, it's been a bit disappointing
14:35	`cbp	bitemyapp: maybe i'll let the dice roll
14:35	bitemyapp	`cbp: erruh?
14:35	indigo	bitemyapp: The Lucene index sounds fun
14:35	indigo	Lucene is sexy
14:35	technomancy	clojurebot: 2d12
14:35	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
14:35	technomancy	=(
14:36	bitemyapp	indigo: next on my list is getting Simonides launched.
14:36	technomancy	hiredman: what's the dice command?
14:36	bitemyapp	if noprompt can get a fucking internet connection, we'll pair on Grom.
14:36	bitemyapp	~roll
14:36	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
14:37	arrdem	$roll 2d6
14:37	bitemyapp	seangrove: know of any frontend testing (automated) stuff that is more baked than this: https://github.com/pandeiro/ghost ?
14:37	arrdem	dang
14:38	seangrove	bitemyapp: We use clojurescript.test and selenium/taxi + Sauce Labs
14:38	bitemyapp	oh right, of course.
14:39	`cbp	hmm porqué no los tres
14:39	`cbp	prolly start with lein test as a ser- er library
14:39	cmiles74	bitemyapp: I have a pull request out to clj-webdriver (taxi
14:39	cmiles74	bitemyapp: ) to include PhantomJS support.
14:40	bitemyapp	`cbp: like technomancy said, that's sort of a library already. The question is how to extend it.
14:40	bitemyapp	or make it nicer. or something.
14:40	bitemyapp	cmiles74: hrm, that would be nice.
14:40	bitemyapp	cmiles74: it's too bad casper et al are kinda ghetto.
14:41	`cbp	ok uhm lucene then
14:41	bitemyapp	`cbp: https://github.com/weavejester/clucy
14:41	bitemyapp	`cbp: ah, he already has support for a memory-index.
14:41	bitemyapp	haha, hum.
14:41	`cbp	gg
14:42	cmiles74	bitemyapp: clj-webdriver is a step in the right direction, but it's still not really fun.
14:42	bitemyapp	cmiles74: yeah.
14:43	bitemyapp	`cbp: want to write Haskell? :P
14:43	`cbp	bitemyapp: I'm having a bit of a hard time with it honestly hah
14:43	bitemyapp	`cbp: tried Yann Esposito's tutorial?
14:43	bitemyapp	`cbp: http://yannesposito.com/Scratch/en/blog/Haskell-the-Hard-Way/
14:43	`cbp	i'll need a few weeks to grok it probably
14:43	`cbp	yeah im following that
14:44	bitemyapp	`cbp: s'all good.
14:44	`cbp	one of the examples there didnt work and so i asked in #haskell and left even more confused
14:44	`cbp	:-p
14:44	bitemyapp	`cbp: which?
14:46	`cbp	bitemyapp: the example right before 3.2.3 i think
14:47	`cbp	bitemyapp: ill probably try to add lazyness to revise this weekend
14:47	bitemyapp	`cbp: that's a really good idea.
14:47	`cbp	bitemyapp: also a `do` query
14:52	`cbp	or uh something similar i can't quite remember what i wanted
14:52	`cbp	the python driver had something i wanted
14:53	bitemyapp	`cbp: I fixed that Haskell program.
14:53	bitemyapp	`cbp: do you want to see?
14:54	bitemyapp	`cbp: data Complex a = Complex { real :: a, img :: a} <--- I made it parametric and removed the typeclass qualifier.
14:54	bitemyapp	λ> real c
14:54	bitemyapp	1.0
14:54	bitemyapp	it was referring to an "a" that hadn't been passed to the type constructor (parametric type constructor)
14:54	bitemyapp	I don't know why his code was data Complex = ...
14:55	`cbp	oh so it was a bug?
14:55	bitemyapp	`cbp: his fuck-up, not yours.
14:55	`cbp	I imagined maybe this code is on previous version
14:55	bitemyapp	I'm figuring out how to reintegrate the typeclass qualification now, but it "just works" now.
14:55	`cbp	bitemyapp: do you have a paste?
14:55	`cbp	or i guess its just that line
14:56	bitemyapp	it's just that line.
14:56	bitemyapp	data Complex = Num a => Complex { real :: a, img :: a} -- old
14:56	bitemyapp	data Complex a = Complex { real :: a, img :: a} -- new
14:56	bitemyapp	the problem is "a" can be anything right now
14:56	bitemyapp	so I need to figure out how to readd the Num constraint.
14:58	bitemyapp	`cbp: you can do this too: data Complex a b = Complex { real :: a, img :: b}
14:58	bitemyapp	tho I don't know why you would.
14:58	bitemyapp	I'm figuring out why my typeclass qualification makes the type decl existential.
15:01	bitemyapp	sorry, GADT issue.
15:01	bitemyapp	`cbp: that specific syntax actually got deprecated.
15:01	bitemyapp	`cbp: Yann's tutorial is probably getting long in the tooth.
15:01	`cbp	bitemyapp: yeah that's what i figured
15:01	bitemyapp	or not.
15:01	bitemyapp	sigh.
15:02	`cbp	lol
15:02	bitemyapp	`cbp: #haskell can't agree on what #haskell thinks about Yann's tutorial.
15:02	bitemyapp	answers to come when they stop arguing.
15:03	arrdem	is the argumet worth watching?
15:03	bitemyapp	arrdem: no, they're right.
15:03	bitemyapp	you don't constrain the types of your data
15:03	bitemyapp	you constrain the types of your functions.
15:03	bitemyapp	`cbp: ^^
15:04	bitemyapp	noprompt: long time no see.
15:04	bitemyapp	noprompt: the age of Grom is upon us.
15:05	bitemyapp	noprompt: Prepare thyself and thy Salad: http://yannesposito.com/Scratch/en/blog/Haskell-the-Hard-Way/
15:05	`cbp	oh uhm
15:05	`cbp	ok
15:06	noncom	,(keyword "aaa bbb")
15:06	clojurebot	:aaa bbb
15:06	`cbp	how does grom work
15:06	noncom	why are keywords with space allowed?
15:06	hiredman	clojurebot: 1d6
15:06	clojurebot	No entiendo
15:06	hiredman	3d6+5
15:06	clojurebot	13
15:06	noncom	{(keyword "a b") 3}
15:06	hiredman	there we go
15:06	bitemyapp	2d12
15:06	clojurebot	12
15:06	danneu	If you've (case (int x) ...) and your case-preds are 1, 2, 3, then how can you resolve the reflection error where (int x) is an int, but 1 2 3 are longs?
15:06	bitemyapp	nice.
15:06	noncom	,{(keyword "a b") 3}
15:06	clojurebot	{:a b 3}
15:07	`cbp	1d6
15:07	clojurebot	6
15:07	noncom	,{(keyword "a b") (keyword "c d")}
15:07	clojurebot	{:a b :c d}
15:07	hiredman	danneu: remove (int x)
15:07	bitemyapp	,(get {(keyword "a b") 3} (keyword "a b"))
15:07	clojurebot	3
15:08	noprompt	bitemyapp: zomg, the salad jokes last night.
15:08	bitemyapp	noprompt: Grom will eat your salad and take your land.
15:08	noncom	so why keywords with spaces are alowed? that ruined my world today
15:08	danneu	hiredman: haha, yeah. i'll just do that. the function it's dispatching uses (int _) for a dumb reason
15:08	technomancy	...
15:08	bitemyapp	noprompt: https://github.com/bitemyapp/grom/ all glory to grom!
15:08	noprompt	bitemyapp: eff, i'm gonna be in hell for a little while. javascript.
15:09	bitemyapp	technomancy: twitter.
15:09	technomancy	bitemyapp: I saw
15:09	hiredman	danneu: it seems unlikely that that is the reflection warning though
15:09	bitemyapp	noprompt: I'm sorry to hear that. Write Fay instead and compile to JS!
15:09	`cbp	noncom: how did it ruin your day
15:09	noprompt	bitemyapp: if i could write in an alt-js lang believe me i would be cljs.
15:10	noncom	`cbp: boiled to a simple example, i was trying to get the key :a from the map readout, which did not exit, and was :a b instead
15:10	noprompt	bitemyapp: the best thing i can do right now is use mori.
15:10	noprompt	bitemyapp: however, i'm still writing clj/cljs at home.
15:10	noncom	`cbp: i could not find where was i wrong
15:10	`cbp	noncom: oh :-)
15:10	noncom	the data was coming from elsewhere so i had no guess that that can happen
15:10	teslanick	Javascript isn't so bad; it's remarkably expressive for having a stupid java-like syntax.
15:11	seangrove	teslanick: Nope, it's pretty bad.
15:11	noprompt	teslanick: what seangrove said.
15:11	seangrove	It's tolerable in small doses, but it's to be carefully monitored.
15:12	noprompt	it's magnified after a full year of clj/cljs.
15:12	noprompt	javascript is a bit more tolerable than python i'll say that.
15:13	bitemyapp	noprompt: don't get me started about Python's fake closures.
15:14	nenorbot	bitemyapp: what's wrong with Python's closures?
15:14	poppingtonic	I've noticed that, the more I immerse myself in Clojure, the harder it gets for me to parse Python.
15:14	teslanick	he told you not to get him started ;)
15:15	nenorbot	Just genuinely curious :)
15:20	noprompt	dnolen: will cljsbuild automatically compile js that uses closure too?
15:21	noprompt	^ or if anyone else has an answer to that question.
15:26	OscarZ	I'm looking at memoize function here: http://clojure.org/atoms .The function will be called recursively, I'm wondering about the scope of "mem" .. wouldnt there be a new copy of mem for each function call ?
15:27	Raynes	OscarZ: mem is defined outside of the anonymous function.
15:27	OscarZ	obviously not.. but how does that work..
15:27	`cbp	OscarZ: it's a closure
15:27	Raynes	OscarZ: The returned function closes over 'mem'. That's what a closure is.
15:27	OscarZ	oh.. right.. the "fn" part ?
15:28	Raynes	Yes. That's an anonymous function, which memoize returns.
15:28	TimMc	nenorbot: Yeah, I keep hearing people whinge about Python's closures, but I still haven't heard an explanation.
15:28	OscarZ	thanks.. it makes sense
15:36	seangrove	Hrm, what's the clojure method of converting clojure datastructures to edn? I see clojure.edn/read-string for reading
15:36	`cbp	seangrove: pr-str
15:36	justin_smith	seangrove: usually pr-str suffices
15:37	justin_smith	or pr with a stream argument
15:37	seangrove	Ah, yes, sorry, my example I was using in the repl was slightly off
15:37	seangrove	pr-str was doing its job fine, pebkac
15:43	arrdem	hum... looking at using core.logic for a strategy system. Should I be pushing predicates into c.c.l instead of writing them in stock Clojure?
15:56	adhollander	cd
16:01	TimMc	ls
16:01	lazybot	boot data dev home lost+found opt root sbin selinux swap tmp
16:09	pjstadig	rm -rf /
16:10	TimMc	pjstadig: You'll need a --no-preserve-root
16:16	also	what clojurescript compiler options (versions? something?) would cause it to emit javascript like "cljs.core.constant$keyword$7" instead of "cljs.core.Keyword(null, "else", "else", 1017020587)"
16:16	hyPiRion	TimMc: we should totally implement Swearjure in https://github.com/alandipert/gherkin
16:16	also	i get cljs.core.constant$keyword$7 running bin/cljsc and the other from lein-cljsbuild
16:17	also	i think i'm using r2030
16:18	bitemyapp	seangrove: are we still doing Lava?
16:21	bitemyapp	seangrove: if so, is that today or tomorrow?
16:21	TimMc	hyPiRion: Yeah, I'm definitely waiting for Clash or whatever Clojure-on-bash gets called. :-P
16:21	TimMc	Are you at the conj?
16:22	seangrove	bitemyapp: tomorrow, and if you're not going into your office on Saturday, we can find a more in-the-middle place to meet. Must be bars somewhere in the middle.
16:22	technomancy	TimMc: are you???
16:22	lazybot	technomancy: Oh, absolutely.
16:22	seangrove	I believe SF has the highest number of bars per-capita in the states
16:22	hyPiRion	TimMc: yep
16:23	TimMc	technomancy: Nope.
16:23	technomancy	sadface.jpg
16:23	TimMc	Yeah, I should go some time.
16:23	TimMc	Too busy this year.
16:24	bitemyapp	seangrove: I won't be at the office, but the office isn't a bad epicenter because I have unparking next to it.
16:24	biggbear	does "lein repl" reads the file project.clj? and if so how to include in there libraries like clojure.pprint. Please
16:24	seangrove	also: Very strange
16:25	technomancy	biggbear: clojure.pprint is a namespace, not a library
16:25	augustl	doing algorithm basics on coursera. Are there any papers/blog posts/.... about the persistent data structures in Clojure?
16:25	pjstadig	augustl: yes
16:26	pjstadig	http://lmgtfy.com/?q=phil+bagwell
16:26	bitemyapp	pjstadig: that's just mean :(
16:27	bitemyapp	pjstadig: it's not actually that obvious that Clojure's data structures are based on Bagwell, rather than Okasaki's work.
16:27	pjstadig	turns out the results aren't that great, they don't surface any papers
16:27	pjstadig	http://lampwww.epfl.ch/papers/idealhashtrees.pdf
16:27	bitemyapp	dammit
16:27	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
16:27	bitemyapp	beat me to the punch.
16:28	augustl	pjstadig: thanks!
16:28	pjstadig	sure
16:29	pjstadig	augustl: i don't think there are any papers on clojure's persistent vectors, but there's the rrb trees paper which kinda explains them http://infoscience.epfl.ch/record/169879/files/RMTrees.pdf
16:29	pjstadig	and adds some features to them
16:30	augustl	iirc Clojure is unique in that they're completely immutable?
16:30	augustl	or is it transients that makes Clojure unique?
16:31	technomancy	augustl: clojure is different from many implementations in that the performance characteristics don't degrade over time
16:31	technomancy	also efficient functional vectors are quite rare
16:32	augustl	perhaps reading the damn code is enough for a good understanding - after the coursera algorithms course, that is
16:32	pjstadig	augustl: implementing them will be the most illuminating
16:32	pjstadig	reading the code second best
16:32	pjstadig	(aside from reading the papers)
16:32	also	seangrove: it's :emit-constants
16:32	also	seems to be true for my lein-cljsbuild, false for cljsc
16:33	augustl	pjstadig: are there C implementations? Would be fun to toy with that
16:33	seangrove	also: That's the source of the problem? I've never seen that flag.
16:33	augustl	memory management aside..
16:33	also	i think it's this: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojurescript/bSFK6CEE3PE
16:34	pjstadig	augustl: you need GC for persistent datastructures to work, which could is possible in C
16:39	technomancy	nice round of applause for juxt at the conj
16:39	bitemyapp	technomancy: wait, are you watching?
16:39	bitemyapp	technomancy: is there a stream?!
16:40	technomancy	bitemyapp: I'm ... present
16:40	technomancy	in, you know, meatspace
16:40	biggbear	technomancy: thanks, i guess you have to require clojure.pprint in the project.clj -> repl-options -> init?
16:40	bitemyapp	technomancy: oh, I didn't know. ;_;
16:40	bitemyapp	technomancy: who used juxt?
16:41	technomancy	biggbear: yeah; there's no way afaik to refer it everywhere though
16:41	technomancy	bitemyapp: alan dipert had a juxt in his lisp-in-bash impl
16:42	technomancy	and the current speaker said it was his favourite function
16:42	bitemyapp	technomancy: I just documented this code which uses juxt: (into {} (map #((juxt :db/id identity) %) (db->schema db)))
16:43	technomancy	\m/
16:43	technomancy	bitemyapp: wayt
16:43	technomancy	wait
16:43	bitemyapp	technomancy: wut
16:44	pjstadig	wat
16:44	technomancy	what is going on with the #()
16:44	technomancy	were you just checking to make sure I'm paying attention?
16:44	bitemyapp	technomancy: this is production code.
16:44	S11001001	technomancy: needs to meet quota of eta expansion
16:45	bitemyapp	technomancy: I remember it breaking before I did that, but I can remove it and see if the arity is kosher.
16:45	bitemyapp	in the absence of a type system keeping me honest, cargo cult rules the day.
16:46	noncom	how do i better parse huge trees in recursive manner with element types (but not java types) that require different parsers AND avoid StackOverflow exception? example: https://www.refheap.com/20932
16:46	technomancy	bitemyapp: or you know... a repl?
16:47	bitemyapp	technomancy: I did use it in a REPL
16:47	bitemyapp	that's how I knew to add the wrapper >:)
16:47	bitemyapp	let me test again tho
16:47	technomancy	I don't see how it can make a difference in a map over one coll
16:47	justin_smith	noncom: at parse time you could build a DAG in terms of elementa-ids and connections to them in one map and elements by id in another map, and then construct the tree out of the DAG after you are done parsing
16:48	justin_smith	that way everything can go in the heap
16:48	bitemyapp	I still need a library that randomly fucks with my functions to test my coverage.
16:49	bitemyapp	I end up doing manual "negative" tests before proceeding with a change that I am running the tests to verify.
16:49	bitemyapp	ahhh and the negative test failed. Fuck me in the beard.
16:49	technomancy	._.
16:53	bitemyapp	nicferrier: Scala is so good because everyone can just pretend it's Java. #thatsagoodthingright?
16:55	noncom	justin_smith: i got it but still have two questions: 1) why parsing to build the maps wont cause SO?, 2) what's DAG?
16:55	justin_smith	Directed Acyclic Graph
16:55	justin_smith	a standard data structure
16:55	noncom	ah
16:55	justin_smith	you don't need to use the stack to build the data
16:56	noncom	right
16:56	justin_smith	that's why I suggest the connections map / elements map implementation
16:56	noncom	i can use an atom instead of the stack, am i right?
16:56	justin_smith	right
16:56	justin_smith	or a ref
16:56	noncom	cool!
16:57	noncom	thanks!
16:57	justin_smith	n/p
16:57	justin_smith	there is still the trick of changing the non-tail-recursive descent into a linear non stack-building (or minimally stack-building) version
16:58	justin_smith	but the DAG will help with that
16:58	noncom	yes, DAG is a radical approach
16:58	bitemyapp	hello 90s.
16:58	bitemyapp	Totally Radical!
16:59	justin_smith	radical in the old sense as well: it is very primitive, you can build most other data structures out of one :)
16:59	bitemyapp	technomancy: bare juxt is fine.
16:59	bitemyapp	technomancy: good catch.
16:59	technomancy	bitemyapp: yw =)
17:00	noncom	sorry me no native english, radical i mean that it is totally impure when i was first thinking pure, but let it go
17:00	noncom	no tailcall optimisation makes the mutable approach the best here
17:01	noncom	justin_smith: you said "most", what datastructures it can't help to build?
17:02	justin_smith	noncom: just hedging my bet
17:02	justin_smith	:)
17:02	noncom	:D
17:02	justin_smith	it could be that it is a basis for every possible data structure, for all I know
17:03	justin_smith	hmm.. I guess you could build a cyclic graph out of multiple acyclic graphs, so the obvious answer to that question is ruled out...
17:03	noncom	yeah.. everything is described in terms of relations..
17:04	justin_smith	but of course you cannot build a DCG out of a single DAG
17:06	TEttinger	hypergraphs man
17:07	justin_smith	ahh, I figured something like that existed
17:07	justin_smith	TIL, thanks
17:08	TEttinger	justin_smith, hypergraphs are barely used and the one implementation I have found is awfully slow.
17:08	TEttinger	but in theory, they can be used to implement I believe any data structure
17:09	justin_smith	yeah, when an article on a data structure has this much math in it I usually figure it doesn't have much use outside haskell programming :)
17:09	justin_smith	*much practical programming use
17:09	noncom	can a prolog program be considered a hypergraph?
17:10	justin_smith	there is probably a linear transform from turing machine to hypergraph
17:10	TEttinger	yeah. I might look up data literals to see if I can make http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/LinkedHashMap.html have some nice syntax sugar for Clojure.
17:12	justin_smith	I have been working on a pure clojure quad-tree implementation, so I can use it in clojure or clojurescript for packing algorithms
17:12	justin_smith	for extra credit I decided not to use any geometry libs and relearn all my 2d geometry by implementing it out of bare clojure
17:13	bitemyapp	justin_smith: whyyyyyyy?
17:13	amalloy	TEttinger: why would you want that mutable data structure to have nice clojure sugar? there's already an immutable analogue to that at org.flatland/ordered
17:14	justin_smith	because I want to be better at geometry, to inform my packing algorithms :)
17:14	noncom	TEttinger: you mean clojure is going to have a LHM literal?
17:14	noncom	justin_smith: so the lib was ok? recently i've been thinking of octrees in clojure for 3d...
17:15	justin_smith	well the libs I could find all used interop
17:15	justin_smith	and I want my code to be runnable on the client
17:15	justin_smith	or the server
17:15	justin_smith	which rules out just using a js or java based lib
17:16	seangrove	Hrm, wish there was an easy way to tail the nrepl-server buffer when it's spewing tons of text
17:16	seangrove	I have to keep mashing M->
17:16	justin_smith	also, nothing wrong with polishing one's weapon, so to speak
17:16	bitemyapp	justin_smith: definitely not. Your reasons make sense.
17:17	justin_smith	seangrove: there is an emacs mode I once found for that - similar to auto-revert mode but for buffers that are getting inserted to by other elisp
17:17	Glenjamin	hi guys, random question: how do you pronouce ".clj" ?
17:17	seangrove	justin_smith: Interesting, couldn't find it from a bit of googling
17:17	hfaafb	see el jay
17:17	bitemyapp	seangrove: auto-revert-tail-mode not working because it's not a file?
17:18	bitemyapp	seangrove: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Reverting.html
17:18	bitemyapp	seangrove: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AutoRevertMode
17:18	justin_smith	I don't think auto-revert does what you expect when there is no file
17:18	seangrove	bitemyapp: Yeah, it's not a file, hence the trouble
17:19	amalloy	Glenjamin: usuall see el jay, indeed, although occasionally clidge is convenient
17:19	justin_smith	culje?
17:19	bitemyapp	seangrove: the code in that emacs wiki page has a goto-char thing, might be able to set up a timer for that.
17:19	Glenjamin	i realised i was thinking of it as "kludge" in my head, which doesn't really fit :D
17:19	seangrove	bitemyapp: I'll check it out, thanks
17:21	justin_smith	bitemyapp: yeah, that's what the snippet I lost was doing, (goto-char (point-max)), followed by sit-for in a loop
17:22	justin_smith	(while also doing things by making sure this was being done in the right buffer etc. - for extra credit you could even skip the whole thing if the buffer is not visible)
17:23	justin_smith	no, not sit-for
17:23	justin_smith	run-at-time
17:41	TEttinger	noncom, I just found https://github.com/flatland/ordered , which does what I wanted anyway
17:42	JohnCMadison_	Can anyone point me to the replacement of dissoc-in?
17:44	TimMc	JohnCMadison_: update-in + dissoc
17:44	JohnCMadison_	ok
17:44	JohnCMadison_	i wonder why
17:44	JohnCMadison_	thanks TimMc
17:45	TimMc	IIRC, it may not work properly at the top level.
17:45	TimMc	&(update-in {:a 1 :b 2} [] dissoc :a)
17:45	lazybot	⇒ {nil nil, :a 1, :b 2}
17:45	TimMc	:-(
17:45	bitemyapp	JohnCMadison_: I don't think people really agreed on what it should be mean for unmaterialized/partially materialized paths.
17:45	TimMc	&(update-in {:a 1 :b 2} [:does :not :exist] dissoc :a)
17:45	lazybot	⇒ {:does {:not {:exist nil}}, :a 1, :b 2}
17:45	bitemyapp	I think amalloy have disagreed on the semantics before :)
17:46	TimMc	^ Yeah, there's some weird results.
17:46	bitemyapp	TimMc: might as well just use a function that returns nil
17:46	JohnCMadison_	ok. right. better to have no function than a buggy one
17:46	bitemyapp	it wasn't buggy
17:46	bitemyapp	it was a philosophical dispute.
17:46	JohnCMadison_	ah
17:47	bitemyapp	there wasn't a way to get everybody to agree on a single well-defined behavior.
17:47	TimMc	bitemyapp: Do you recall a case where you disagreed?
17:47	bitemyapp	TimMc: do you want me to recount amalloy and I's discussion, or what I think it should do?
17:48	TimMc	I'm guessing there would be some argument about what happens when you dissoc the last key in a map (although it's pretty clear to me.)
17:48	TimMc	bitemyapp: Recount, if you can.
17:48	bitemyapp	there are like 2-3 different things
17:48	TimMc	I'll search if you can't.
17:48	bitemyapp	one is whether it should short-circuit the nested path if it encounters a key along the way that doesn't exist
17:48	bitemyapp	whether it should nil the value out or remove the attribute properly
17:49	bitemyapp	whether removing the final key in a map should result in {} or nil (I prefer the former, result here depends on the last issue somewhat)
17:49	bitemyapp	TimMc: amalloy mostly discussed the nesting issue
17:49	bitemyapp	and I*
17:49	TimMc	They all seem pretty straightforward to me, but I can see where argument would arise.
17:49	TimMc	(yes, remove, {})
17:50	TimMc	For some decisions, you would end up with a recursive modification.
17:50	bitemyapp	TimMc: so the two of us agree at least.
17:50	TimMc	(dissoc-in {:a {:b {:c 4}}} [:a :b :c]) would result in nil, e.g.
17:51	bitemyapp	oh, no.
17:51	bitemyapp	I wouldn't want that.
17:51	Apage43	,(assoc nil :a 1)
17:51	clojurebot	{:a 1}
17:51	TimMc	Neither would I, that's the consequence of...
17:51	bitemyapp	(dissoc-in {:a {:b {:c 4}}} [:a :b :c]) should return {:a {:b {}}}
17:51	Apage43	well
17:51	Apage43	the problem with that
17:52	Apage43	is
17:52	TimMc	(mu, mu, nil)
17:52	bitemyapp	Apage43: Clojure gives no fucks about nils.
17:52	Apage43	if my initial thing is a sorted-map
17:52	Apage43	and I dissoc it empty and the assoc onto the thing I dissoced from
17:52	Apage43	I don't want it to become a different type of map in the middle there
17:52	bitemyapp	Apage43: that's why we're saying don't return nil. Or at least I am.
17:52	TimMc	Nod I am not a fan of Clojure's pretending nil is a meaningful collection.
17:53	TEttinger	so is the solution to toplevel update-in to just use update?
17:53	bitemyapp	TimMc: I'm not a fan of anything-goes compilers.
17:53	TEttinger	oh there is no update
17:54	TimMc	&(update-in {} [] assoc 1 2)
17:54	lazybot	⇒ {nil {1 2}}
17:54	Apage43	...
17:54	TimMc	sigh
17:54	TimMc	I'm pretty sure update-in has a buggy base case.
17:54	Apage43	such surprising
17:54	`cbp	haah wat
17:54	bitemyapp	so type safe, wow, pretty error
17:56	TimMc	If I (update-in ..map.. [..path..] assoc 1 2), then (get-in ..map.. [..path.. 1]) should return 2
17:56	TimMc	Err, that second ..map.. should really be the first expression.
17:56	bitemyapp	TimMc: that sort of symmetry would certainly be nice.
17:57	bitemyapp	grumble grumble.
17:57	TimMc	&(update-in {:a {:b {:c 4}}} [:a :b :c] dissoc :c)
17:57	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentMap
17:57	TimMc	&(update-in {:a {:b {:c 4}}} [:a :b] dissoc :c)
17:57	lazybot	⇒ {:a {:b {}}}
17:57	TimMc	Other than the short-circuiting and the base case, I think update-in + dissoc does the right thing.
17:58	Apage43	other favorite thing is the clojure.set functions that will totally give strange answers if you feed them collections that aren't sets
17:58	bitemyapp	Apage43: does Golang even have sets?
17:59	Apage43	probably not
17:59	bitemyapp	Serious question (in the stdlib)
17:59	bitemyapp	lol.
17:59	Apage43	not that I can find
17:59	TimMc	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-373
18:05	Apage43	bitemyapp: just maps.
18:05	bitemyapp	http://www.philandstuff.com/2011/10/25/learning-monads-in-clojure-a-warning.html
18:05	bitemyapp	Apage43: sweet bros, just use dem keys.
18:05	Apage43	and that's part of the language. the stdlib doesn't have any extra collections of any sort.
18:06	bitemyapp	Apage43: hnnnnngggggg
18:07	Apage43	since they'd just be bags of interface{}
18:07	Apage43	oh, interface{}
18:08	bitemyapp	Apage43: great work guys.
18:14	TEttinger	bitemyapp: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11914692/functional-doge.png
18:15	noprompt	such typesafe
18:15	TEttinger	wow
18:15	`cbp	¬_¬
18:19	bitemyapp	`cbp is distressed to be surrounded by such dorks.
18:19	bitemyapp	TEttinger: <3
18:34	TEttinger	similarly terrible, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11914692/dogejure.png
18:36	Morgawr	TEttinger: http://doge.ufeff.pw/?n=128 this is how you do it :P
18:36	TEttinger	there we go
19:40	arrdem	bitemyapp: Morgawr just out memed you, you gonna take that?>
19:41	bitemyapp	arrdem: I will wait and lurk.
19:41	bitemyapp	arrdem: Prepare yourself...the category theory memes are coming...
19:41	john2x	oooh shibe. http://github.com/john2x/shibebot
19:41	arrdem	(inc john2x)
19:41	lazybot	⇒ 1
19:41	arrdem	(inc Morgawr)
19:41	lazybot	⇒ 1
19:42	arrdem	(inc TEttinger) ; for effort
19:42	lazybot	⇒ 6
19:42	toothpick`	(dec arrdem)
19:42	lazybot	⇒ 5
19:42	bitemyapp	john2x: lmfao.
19:45	john2x	heh. I had to kill the bot, as it was getting way too many downvotes and getting banned too fast.
19:45	bitemyapp	john2x: :(
19:46	arrdem	john2x: haha it looks like it was pulling 75% downvotes :P
19:49	danenania	does anyone have experience with shoreleave? having csrf troubles with ring.middleware.anti-forgery... __anti-forgery-token is defined in my cookies, but not getting added to requests with remote-callback or rpc macro
19:58	echo-area	Is it strange if I'm using defrecord but also create a function mk-my-record?
20:00	bitemyapp	echo-area: not at all, Haskellers do something comparable all the time.
20:00	echo-area	bitemyapp: Thanks
20:00	bitemyapp	mostly so they can constrain the input types to a specific use-case without constraining the type of the record.
20:00	echo-area	And another question: Is it idiomatic to use Agents with Records?
20:00	bitemyapp	echo-area: egads
20:01	echo-area	What?
20:01	clojurebot	What is sampling a random integers betwen 2, 12 s..t. P(X = i) = (7-\|i-7\|)/36
20:01	echo-area	What does "egads" mean?
20:01	bitemyapp	$google egads
20:01	lazybot	[Urban Dictionary: egads] http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=egads
20:02	echo-area	Hmm, sorry
20:02	bitemyapp	it's fine.
20:02	echo-area	And thank you :)
20:02	bitemyapp	np
20:02	bitemyapp	echo-area: I generally just use maps with agents.
20:03	echo-area	Yes, but I made a protocol
20:03	bitemyapp	echo-area: well, only way to know is to try it, but make a serious attempt of breaking it.
20:03	echo-area	I see. Learn from experience :)
20:05	bitemyapp	echo-area: the reason for my discomfort is that if the record definition gets reloaded or something, the agents will persist stale versions of the record
20:05	bitemyapp	echo-area: it makes interop awkward and generally multimethods + maps suffice for what you'd want to do.
20:05	bitemyapp	multimethods also let you avoid fucking with your data.
20:07	echo-area	Ah, that's indeed better. I'll go switch to those. Thank you!
20:07	echo-area	I think this is important especially if the data structure is surely going to be changed shortly
20:08	bitemyapp	that's the easiest time I've ever had convincing somebody not to fuck their data with protocols.
20:08	echo-area	Good for both of us :)
20:19	arrdem	bitemyapp: YOU WILL NEVER BREAK ME
20:20	seangrove	Seems like not all #inst methods are created the same...? Or should I be able to all (.getYear #inst "2013-08-31T23:49:19.000000000-00:00") any time I get #inst back?
20:20	seangrove	,(.getYear #inst "2013-08-31T23:49:19.000000000-00:00")
20:20	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
20:21	seangrove	Well, it works if I copy/paste it into the repl, but in other cases it's a java.sql.Timestamp, and I get the error "No matching field found: getDayOfYear for class java.sql.Timestamp"
20:21	seangrove	Which is just bonkers, because I think java.sql.Timestamp subclasses java.util.Date, which does have the method .getYear
20:22	justin_smith	wait, do you want getYear of getDayOfYear?
20:22	seangrove	justin_smith: Yes, that could be my problem.
20:23	justin_smith	,(.getDayofYear (java.util.Date.))
20:23	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: getDayofYear for class java.util.Date>
20:23	seangrove	I think I was calling getDayOfYear :P
20:23	justin_smith	,(.getYear (java.util.Date.))
20:23	clojurebot	113
20:23	seangrove	Please excuse me, and thank you for being nice debugging rubber duckies
20:23	justin_smith	/quacks.
20:23	justin_smith	err
20:24	seangrove	Also, upon inspection, getYear seems to be a bit strange
20:24	seangrove	"Returns a value that is the result of subtracting 1900 from the year that contains or begins with the instant in time represented by this Date object, as interpreted in the local time zone."
20:25	justin_smith	hysterical raisins
20:25	seangrove	Why the arbitrary 1900?
20:25	justin_smith	from back when people wanted to store a year in 7 bits
20:26	justin_smith	or some kind of madness like that
20:26	noonian	you just found the y2k bug :)
20:29	arrdem	justin_smith: gotta have that sign bit mon
20:30	justin_smith	"as we fully intend to have a new language to replace this one in two years, the year field will be represented as a single bit"
20:31	arrdem	waaat
20:31	justin_smith	hyperbolizing the attitude of the '70s - that they didn't need a bigger datatype because people would be upgrading anyway
20:37	gws	another favorite developer pastime: taking opaque identifiers and forcing them into some arbitrary box because, well, "that's what it looks like": http://techcrunch.com/2009/06/12/all-hell-may-break-loose-on-twitter-in-2-hours/
21:10	xuser	What's the purpose of the 'when' here? https://www.refheap.com/20940
21:10	justin_smith	it only executes the body if pred is true
21:10	justin_smith	it is like a single arm if
21:10	justin_smith	with no else
21:11	justin_smith	it is weird - I guess in some cases nil or false would be passed in as pred
21:12	xuser	justin_smith: yeah, I guess is testing for a nil pred, thanks
21:16	xuser	just haven't got to the part in the book where they explain 'when',
21:16	justin_smith	,(when true :ok)
21:16	clojurebot	:ok
21:16	justin_smith	,(when false :ok)
21:16	clojurebot	nil
21:16	xuser	justin_smith: is it a matter of style to use 'when' when there is no else?
21:17	justin_smith	yeah - though some will also specify that when should only be used for side effects
21:17	noonian	i've never used when
21:17	justin_smith	,(when true (print :a) (print :b) :c)
21:17	clojurebot	:a:b:c
21:17	justin_smith	with if you would have needed a do statement
21:18	justin_smith	noonian: I got into the habit with common lisp of using when for all my single arm ifs
21:18	xuser	Ok
21:18	noonian	i guess its nicer than an iff because if you have use an explicit do in an if if you want to have more than one form
21:18	justin_smith	it can be - like any other macro the main usage is to make your code clear
21:18	egghead	oh nice I didn't know when had an implicit do
21:18	noonian	well i screwed that sentence up royally
21:37	arrdem	justin_smith: why for side effects?
21:37	justin_smith	it's a style argument
21:37	justin_smith	that technomancy for example is wont to make
21:38	justin_smith	because null has an implicit do
21:38	justin_smith	otherwise, you can use or
21:38	justin_smith	err
21:38	justin_smith	I mean and, of course :)
21:38	justin_smith	,(and true :hello)
21:38	clojurebot	:hello
21:38	justin_smith	,(and nil :hello)
21:38	clojurebot	nil
21:39	justin_smith	and do, which is for chaining many statements and only returning the last value, is clearly only for side effects
21:48	`cbp	bitemyapp: damn it I implement functions which are already implemented but with another name :(
21:48	`cbp	this is embarassing
21:49	`cbp	i'll sweep them under the rug after the next patch....
21:50	bitemyapp	`cbp: happens to the best of us :)
21:50	bitemyapp	`cbp: at least you're so productive you forget your own work!
21:50	bitemyapp	`cbp: also, you know what time it is, right?
21:50	`cbp	bitemyapp: :-o
21:51	bitemyapp	`cbp: it's time.
21:51	`cbp	i think there's another patch t.t
21:51	bitemyapp	`cbp: hopefully they nerf the spirit fuckers.
21:51	bitemyapp	or huskar.
21:52	bitemyapp	`cbp: well get the patch going, what's the ETA?
21:52	`cbp	bitemyapp: wanna play LoL
21:52	`cbp	i have one guy that doesnt play dota
21:53	bitemyapp	`cbp: sacrifice him to Molech, then fire up DotA2
21:53	`cbp	=o
21:54	bitemyapp	`cbp: why don't they have DotA2?
21:54	`cbp	bitemyapp: they've never played it nor installed it
21:55	bitemyapp	`cbp: today is the day.
21:55	bitemyapp	`cbp: they'd be better get started downloading too :)
21:55	bitemyapp	`cbp: also we should do voice. Do you typically use mumble, teamspeak, or in-game?
21:55	bitemyapp	I guess in-game is easiest.
21:55	bitemyapp	arrdem: wakie wakie
21:56	arrdem	bitemyapp: wat
21:56	bitemyapp	arrdem: DotA2 time.
21:56	arrdem	oh r we dotaz
21:56	bitemyapp	arrdem: confiscate a computer
21:56	`cbp	bitemyapp: skype
21:56	arrdem	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OzWIFX8M-Y
21:56	`cbp	i have all of those though
21:57	arrdem	bitemyapp: I'm playing on my box. hang on plugging back in & gearing up
21:57	arrdem	s/box/ss9/
21:57	bitemyapp	arrdem: what's an ss9?
21:58	`cbp	bitemyapp: 30 min
21:58	`cbp	bitemyapp: i have 2 guys on lol maybe 1 guy on dota
21:58	bitemyapp	`cbp: tell the two on LoL to skip drinking for a night or two and use the money for DotA2
21:59	`cbp	i think they avoid dota on principle
21:59	bitemyapp	`cbp: well they're not friends.
21:59	arrdem	bitemyapp: how are we VOIPing?
21:59	bitemyapp	arrdem: I think cbp wants Skype.
22:00	bitemyapp	arrdem: the thing is, if we're playing DotA2, we can just use in-game.
22:00	bitemyapp	arrdem: which if we don't have a full team of 5, we should do.
22:00	bitemyapp	arrdem: so no need I think.
22:00	arrdem	good point that... gimme a minute to pacman -R this cancer and find my USB headset
22:00	`cbp	1d2
22:00	clojurebot	2
22:00	bitemyapp	arrdem: what's ss9?
22:01	bitemyapp	1d1
22:01	clojurebot	1
22:01	bitemyapp	1d0
22:01	bitemyapp	AHA
22:01	arrdem	bitemyapp: sorry. samsung series 9
22:01	bitemyapp	arrdem: what gfx chip?
22:01	bitemyapp	1d9000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
22:01	bitemyapp	1d10000000000000000000
22:01	bitemyapp	1d10000
22:01	clojurebot	2434
22:01	bitemyapp	1d100000000000000000000
22:01	bitemyapp	1d100000000
22:01	bitemyapp	1d100000
22:01	clojurebot	21888
22:02	arrdem	bitemyapp: intel integrated like a bau5
22:02	bitemyapp	hrm.
22:02	bitemyapp	arrdem: that runs DotA2?
22:02	arrdem	bitemyapp: somehow
22:02	bitemyapp	arrdem: Valve are fucking wizards.
22:02	arrdem	bitemyapp: on Linux too...
22:02	bitemyapp	arrdem: that might actually be helping your case.
22:02	arrdem	goddamn black magic
22:02	`cbp	bitemyapp: i thought u played dota more
22:03	`cbp	er lol
22:03	bitemyapp	no
22:03	bitemyapp	arrdem: according to Valve, they were able to make their in-house game engines run better on Linux
22:03	bitemyapp	`cbp: I only tried out LoL recently, I'm not a fan.
22:03	`cbp	oh
22:03	bitemyapp	it's a treadmill grinding game, no likey.
22:03	arrdem	gimme a a min... I gotta figure out how to change my alsa I/O standard device
22:03	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
22:04	`cbp	casual ;)
22:04	bitemyapp	that too
22:05	`cbp	are you trying to play on gentoo or something
22:05	bitemyapp	also I can't last hit for shit in LoL
22:05	`cbp	no i was calling you a casual
22:05	arrdem	clojurebot: ping
22:05	clojurebot	PONG!
22:06	bitemyapp	`cbp: oh fuck you I used to play HoN.
22:06	bitemyapp	`cbp: HoN was briefly the nectar of the MOBA gods
22:06	xuser	you guys don't play counter strike? ;)
22:06	`cbp	i did for a bit
22:06	`cbp	too many games though
22:07	bitemyapp	xuser: I got tired of losing. I'm better at more tactical shooters.
22:08	arrdem	meh. lemme try a different headset, Arch doesn't like this one
22:08	bitemyapp	arrdem: :(
22:08	xuser	I just played dota when it all started inside warcraft frozen throne ;)
22:08	bitemyapp	xuser: I used to play it then too
22:08	bitemyapp	I didn't get respectable at the game until HoN though.
22:08	arrdem	xuser: I'd totally be a rabit MW:O fan if the devs didn't suck
22:09	egghead	why does this block: (take 300 (reduce + (range)))
22:09	egghead	oh nvm
22:09	egghead	derps
22:09	bitemyapp	egghead: way2go
22:09	`cbp	no one saw that
22:09	`cbp	actually i screenshotted
22:09	bitemyapp	lol `cbp
22:09	arrdem	egghead: logged chan what up
22:10	egghead	nuuu
22:10	bitemyapp	arrdem: what's your Steam account again?
22:12	arrdem	bitemyapp: eradicator5999 or cator5999 I forget
22:14	bitemyapp	arrdem: what kind of bullshit is that.
22:14	bitemyapp	arrdem: sent you my steam name
22:15	arrdem	bitemyapp: I think I got you. there are two of you.
22:16	arrdem	badass. headset online.
23:41	sritchie	hey all - do you guys know if it's possible to turn on http compression using http-kit?