#clojure – 2013-11-08

2013-11-08

00:01	amalloy	thanks! yeah, i'm taking a look. lots of options to consider at the moment, but at first glance it looks interesting
00:05	bitemyapp	what a fun meetup.
00:06	bitemyapp	arohner: hey if you can get amalloy to move to the Yay! that'd be a win for the Clojure community here :)
00:06	arohner	Yay?
00:06	bitemyapp	arohner: you live in the Yay! Area.
00:06	bitemyapp	s/Yay!/Bay/g
00:06	arohner	ah.
00:06	arohner	kind of. I also 'commute' from Austin
00:06	bitemyapp	I was showing people the ugly guts of some code I'd worked on recently.
00:06	bitemyapp	arohner: really? I didn't know that.
00:07	arohner	amalloy: where do you live?
00:07	bitemyapp	arohner: how do you like Austin?
00:07	arohner	it's great
00:07	bitemyapp	I've been considering Austin as a post-SF option.
00:07	amalloy	arohner: LA, but i grew up in the bay area
00:07	arohner	it's cleaner, quiter, nicer and cheaper than SF. The only thing SF has is a better startup community
00:07	bitemyapp	I don't need the startup community per se, just office space and internet.
00:08	bitemyapp	I do like being able to see my fellow Clojurians though.
00:09	arohner	meh. the clojurians are more concentrated at cons than they are locally. even in SF
00:10	bitemyapp	I wish I could go to the conj this year.
00:10	bitemyapp	maybe I'll make to /West
00:10	bitemyapp	make it to*
00:11	arohner	Has /West's location been announced yet?
00:11	jtoy	how can I "undeclare" something?
00:11	bitemyapp	jtoy: what are you doing that needs that?
00:12	amalloy	yeah, that is super-suspcious, jtoy
00:12	jtoy	i use declare foo in one ns and then later use defn foo but get an errore that foo is already declared
00:12	jtoy	i know circular dependency is bad, and i will move it later, sometimes hyou need it though
00:12	bitemyapp	good lord. fix your :require to use namespaces.
00:13	bitemyapp	(:require [my.namespace.rocks :as muh-namespace])
00:13	bitemyapp	muh-namespace/WOOHOO
00:13	bitemyapp	(defn WOOHOO)
00:13	bitemyapp	jtoy: also better nomenclature is called for.
00:13	jtoy	i want to override the old foo though
00:13	bitemyapp	jtoy: stop. no. don't.
00:13	bitemyapp	you're writing code like a meth-addled Ruby user. stop.
00:14	bitemyapp	jtoy: briefly: http://i.imgur.com/TGUbao2.jpg
00:14	indigo	bitemyapp: gem install hairball?
00:14	bitemyapp	indigo: precisely.
00:15	bitemyapp	indigo: I like the Haskell community's way of handling this. anything prefixed with "acme-*" is a Bad Idea (TM)
00:15	bitemyapp	so if you use an acme library, you deserve what you get.
00:15	jtoy	if its completely bad, clojure wouldnt have added declare
00:15	indigo	http://hackage.haskell.org/package/acme-php perfect
00:15	bitemyapp	jtoy: forward declarations don't do what you think.
00:16	amalloy	jtoy: for one namespace to put things into another namespace is evil
00:16	indigo	Oh ew
00:16	jtoy	maybe clojure shouldnt have allowed it then?
00:16	amalloy	also, clojure is turing-complete, so it allows you to do all sorts of evil things
00:17	bitemyapp	jtoy: you are seriously misapprehending what Clojure provides out of necessity as somehow meaning your cockamamie design anti-pattern is encouraged.
00:17	bitemyapp	jtoy: stop. no. don't. Learn how to write Clojure properly. please.
00:17	jtoy	found it: (ns-unmap ns sym)
00:17	bitemyapp	god fucking
00:17	jtoy	bitemyapp: good
00:17	indigo	bitemyapp: Maybe it's chord ;P
00:17	bitemyapp	jtoy: I'm hoping cosmic rays corrupt your code.
00:17	indigo	jtoy: Are you writing a Starcraft clone
00:17	bitemyapp	that just enough bits are flipped that CRC can't save you.
00:18	amalloy	indigo: different guy
00:18	bitemyapp	indigo: I think jtoy actually predates that guy.
00:18	indigo	Ah
00:18	indigo	Hehehe
00:18	bitemyapp	which explains why he's been able to figure out how to smash namespaces whereas I think chord was still at, "HOW DO I VECTOR"
00:19	jtoy	whatever, i write tons of production clojure code
00:19	epichero	I don't
00:19	bitemyapp	jtoy: a lot of really dumb people write tons of production PHP too, doesn't make it a good idea.
00:19	jtoy	hacking is all about using things in ways the system wasnt intended to
00:20	bitemyapp	jtoy: slogans won't save you
00:51	scizo	Does anyone know if this is to be expected with core.async: (clojure.core.async/timeout 100) => ClassCastException java.lang.Double cannot be cast to java.lang.Long java.lang.Long.compareTo (Long.java:50)
00:51	scizo	??
00:51	lazybot	scizo: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
01:13	firesofmay	Hi, Is there a way to push a jar on clojars which is 31mb? Its giving me an error saying file too large and limit is 19.5mb. Any idea?
01:21	amalloy	firesofmay: putting a 30mb jar on clojars is bonkers
01:22	amalloy	you don't include all the dependencies, just your own code
01:24	firesofmay	amalloy it's a java project that I need to write clojure wrapper for: https://github.com/navaneeth/calabash-ios-java
01:25	firesofmay	amalloy any idea on how I can get it to include in my clojure project?
01:28	firesofmay	amalloy I just looked into the jar, he is including all the gems inside of it since he is using jruby to interop with ruby calabash library.
01:28	firesofmay	amalloy hence the size is so big. :-/
01:29	amalloy	just because their project is badly organized doesn't mean yours has to be. find a version of it on maven, or publish it to clojars yourself, and then depend on it
01:30	firesofmay	amalloy He doesn't have it on maven. And that's what I was trying to do, push their project to clojars.
01:32	amalloy	i don't know how to help you with a jar packaged in this way
01:36	firesofmay	amalloy cool thanks.
02:23	SegFaultAX	Off-topic: I've heard more about grails in the last 2 - 4 weeks than I have... basically ever.
02:24	justin_smith	people still use groovy, wow
02:26	SegFaultAX	justin_smith: Seems to be trending up a bit lately as well.
02:27	devn	muhoo: oh man!
02:28	devn	wouldn't it be cool to have karma linked to dollars
02:28	justin_smith	sad trolls, broke, living under bridges
02:29	devn	justin_smith: wha?
02:29	justin_smith	if karma was linked to dollars
02:29	devn	oh, haha
02:29	lpvb	can I have two keys to the same value in a map
02:29	devn	the sad thing is that people would initially tip them
02:29	devn	because that's how trolls work
02:30	devn	lpvb: to the same value? yes.
02:30	justin_smith	lpvb: no, the new value kicks out the old one
02:30	justin_smith	err
02:30	justin_smith	don't mind me, I'm wrong
02:30	lpvb	devn: how do I do that
02:30	muhoo	justin_smith: it's the new economy man.
02:31	devn	lpvb: {:a 1 :b 1}
02:31	devn	lpvb: are you asking if it's possible to have: {:a 1 :a 2}?
02:32	muhoo	,(assoc {:a 1 :b 2} :a 42)
02:32	clojurebot	{:a 42, :b 2}
02:32	lpvb	um. more like {:a (SomeObject.) :b (SomeObject.)}
02:32	lpvb	except they refer to the same object
02:32	devn	so why are you concerned about that?
02:32	justin_smith	(let [x (Object.)] {:a x :b x})
02:32	justin_smith	,(let [x (Object.)] {:a x :b x})
02:32	clojurebot	{:a #<Object java.lang.Object@1eb6bba>, :b #<Object java.lang.Object@1eb6bba>}
02:33	justin_smith	notice they have the same identity
02:33	devn	lpvb: what are you trying to accomplish?
02:33	lpvb	just curious
02:34	lpvb	seems like a layer of indirection to have a binding to x just to get it to bind to :a and :b
02:35	lpvb	could I use a macro to create my own syntax
02:35	muhoo	lol @ circleci "You don't? I'd never have guessed from the way you disabled JavaScript! You're probably so far from our target racket we can't even see you from our run-down San Francisco offices."
02:35	lpvb	like {[:a :b] (Object.)}
02:35	justin_smith	,((fn [x] (assoc x :b (:a x))) {:a (Object.)})
02:35	clojurebot	{:b #<Object java.lang.Object@1ce28a>, :a #<Object java.lang.Object@1ce28a>}
02:36	justin_smith	no need for a macro
02:36	justin_smith	a function suffices
02:37	justin_smith	lpvb: that would not be a macro, it would be a fork of the reader
02:37	justin_smith	macros obey certain rules about calling position etc.
02:37	justin_smith	and even reader macros need the #<something> notation
02:37	justin_smith	so you would need a brand new reader
02:40	justin_smith	,(get {[:a,:b] :value} [:a :b])
02:40	clojurebot	:value
02:40	justin_smith	[:a :b] is already a legal key
02:40	lpvb	well not necessarily {}, instead (defmacro multi-key-map [key-matrix vals] ...)
02:40	justin_smith	like I said, no need for a macro
02:40	justin_smith	I did it with a function above, if you notice
02:41	justin_smith	don't do a macro when a function suffices
02:41	devn	or do, and then refactor it
02:41	devn	or not
02:41	justin_smith	heh
02:41	devn	sometimes a macro is fine
02:42	devn	use your judgement
02:42	justin_smith	what I'm saying is a macro is hard to develop
02:42	justin_smith	if you have a working function, and wish you had a new syntax, make a macro
02:42	devn	so are protocols and types
02:42	devn	there are no rules for when to write macros
02:42	justin_smith	if you want a functionality, then make a function first, make a macro after that
02:42	devn	just do what you think is right
02:42	justin_smith	OK, it's my opinion
02:42	devn	exactly
02:43	justin_smith	I've butted my head against too many libraries that were annoying to use because they exposed macros for things but not functions
02:43	justin_smith	macros don't compose very nicely
02:43	devn	like which ones?
02:43	justin_smith	compojure
02:43	justin_smith	korma
02:43	devn	why didn't those work for you?
02:43	devn	you needed them to compose why?
02:44	devn	defroutes was too much to handle?
02:44	justin_smith	like I said, macros compose poorly
02:44	justin_smith	not difficult to handle
02:44	justin_smith	difficult to compose with
02:44	devn	you are complaining about how something you don't actually need to be composable, isn't composable
02:44	justin_smith	we wanted routes to be defined in a db
02:44	justin_smith	integrating that with a macro, means oh, now I need to write a macro
02:44	justin_smith	I do need it to be composible, because I need to extend it
02:45	devn	so look at the body of the macro and decompose it
02:45	devn	problem solved
02:45	justin_smith	yeah, I could just copy and paste instead of using libraries, sure
02:46	devn	im not sure i understand
02:46	justin_smith	I have a db with a page model
02:46	justin_smith	I want the frontend guy to be able to use the CMS to define the route he needs
02:46	justin_smith	because he knows 0 clojure, but he knows the page that needs to exist
02:47	justin_smith	now, if I am using compojure, in order to define a route based on data fro mthe db, I need to write a macro, since defroute is a macro
02:47	honza	does anyone have any ideas about how many client connections a ring-based compojure app can handle?
02:48	justin_smith	similar to how in order to have the first arg to def be coming from a variable, you need to write a macro
02:48	devn	justin_smith: the 90% case isn't you
02:48	justin_smith	right
02:48	devn	that's life
02:48	devn	all the functions you need to build up what defroutes does are there
02:48	devn	it's not a huge macro
02:48	devn	it's a convenience macro
02:48	devn	so what?
02:48	justin_smith	OK
02:49	devn	it's 2 lines, literally
02:50	justin_smith	I'll never say "don't ever use macros", and I hope you don't think that is what I meant
02:51	justin_smith	but personally I often find them annoying
02:51	devn	nah, im just on a one man crusade to try and give macros some press that isn't all doom and gloom all the time
02:51	muhoo	justin_smith: i call it macro infection.
02:51	bitemyapp	muhoo: what? @ circleci
02:51	bitemyapp	justin_smith: composability uber alles and all that.
02:51	muhoo	if you're dealing with somethign that's a macro, you need to write a macro to deal with it
02:51	devn	heh
02:52	muhoo	then you need to write macros to deal with that, ad infinitum
02:52	devn	muhoo: im sorry, but dude, think about every other language feature
02:52	devn	if you use transients a lot, you call persistent a lot!
02:52	devn	it's not a surprise
02:52	devn	i don't see why people harp on that and not other aspects
02:52	muhoo	true, there are a few other areas where this happens.
02:52	devn	you uses a protocol! no you have to implement it!
02:53	devn	used*
02:53	devn	now*
02:53	justin_smith	devn: the libraries I try to use don't pass me transients - if they did I would be complaining
02:53	muhoo	bitemyapp: if you visit circleci with noscript on, it gives you a snarky little diatribe and a recruiting pitch :-)
02:53	devn	justin_smith: i hear what you're saying, it just, IMO is a personal, stylistic choice
02:53	justin_smith	if I couldn't use the libraries I want without implementing a big pile of protocols, I would complain about that too
02:53	devn	justin_smith: then dont use them
02:53	muhoo	basically "if you are the kind of person who uses noscript, you'll probably love this product"
02:54	devn	meanwhile, everyone else uses compojure
02:54	muhoo	clever
02:54	justin_smith	devn: its just that there are a lot of gratuitous macros out there
02:54	devn	justin_smith: i hear you man, i really do
02:54	muhoo	btw, IIRC, there are ways to define routes in compojure without the defroutes macro
02:54	muhoo	been a while tho
02:54	devn	but either write it better or quit complaining
02:54	justin_smith	I am sure there are
02:55	devn	you can't deny that everything is there in compojure. fork it and turn those macros into fns
02:55	muhoo	in terms of composing routes, so far pedestal looks the most flexible. but i don't quite understand it yet
02:55	muhoo	devn: have a look. i'm pretty sure you can do it without forking
02:55	devn	or that.
02:56	bitemyapp	muhoo: that's pretty funny
02:56	justin_smith	devn: since a coworker of mine wrote this, can I keep complaining now? https://github.com/caribou/polaris
02:56	bitemyapp	muhoo: I thought you were adding the "run-down San Francisco offices" part, that you weren't just makes it bette.r
02:56	muhoo	bitemyapp: yeah, smart dev marketing
02:56	justin_smith	its a routing lib that doesn't use macros
02:56	muhoo	soma, fwiw, is not "run down"
02:56	devn	thank jesus
02:56	devn	no more macros
02:56	devn	now i can sleep at night
02:57	muhoo	25 years ago soma was "run down".
02:57	devn	now it just smells like pee
02:58	muhoo	wait until the rains come. most of SF smells like pee until the rains clean off the streets. couple weeks from now it'll smell nice
02:58	muhoo	bummer about cities in mediterranean climate: no rain from spring until winter.
02:58	devn	seattle manages to have a big city without a bum pee smell
02:58	devn	impressive stuff
02:59	muhoo	seattle last i was there was pretty rainy most of the year. or maybe i was thinking of portland
02:59	justin_smith	seattle has frequent rain, reinforcing muhoo's point
02:59	justin_smith	both
02:59	bitemyapp	muhoo: I'm conflicted. I work for a fantastic company but I'm practically crawling up the walls to get out of SF.
02:59	bitemyapp	muhoo: live in Ingleside, work in SOMA.
02:59	muhoo	K/T
02:59	devn	im thinking about heading out to SF
02:59	devn	err...i /am/ heading out to SF
03:00	devn	just taking my time about it
03:00	devn	leases :(
03:01	muhoo	bitemyapp: i think you'd enjoy nyc or boston
03:02	muhoo	devn: have lots of money before you come here tho.
03:06	muhoo	justin_smith: also, http://www.booleanknot.com/blog/2012/09/18/routing-in-compojure.html fyi
03:07	devn	man, i wish clojure.core didn't have macros in it. it really spoils the whole language.
03:08	justin_smith	muhoo: I do know how to use compojure
03:08	devn	okay, sorry, sorry -- i will quit bringing up macros now
03:08	muhoo	justin_smith: someone was talkign about using compojure without defroutes macro, i thought it was you, sorry
03:08	justin_smith	I was
03:08	bitemyapp	muhoo: I lived in NYC before SF, left quite intentionally.
03:09	bitemyapp	muhoo: I think I want nature near at hand.
03:09	bitemyapp	muhoo: I miss bonfires.
03:09	justin_smith	the code isn't compojure until you get to defroutes, it is vanilla clojure up to that point
03:09	bitemyapp	the main problem with compojure, incidentally, is the macros.
03:09	bitemyapp	wrt composability.
03:09	bitemyapp	I need a generic purely functional router and compojure's macros fuck me over.
03:10	justin_smith	bitemyapp: did you see my link to polaris above?
03:10	justin_smith	I don't know if it is what you need, but we did put some thought into it
03:10	devn	bitemyapp: heh, you too?
03:11	muhoo	well, pedestal, once i can find energy/time to read all its docs and play with it, looks pretty awesome.
03:12	devn	why don't people complain about (defn) in clojure?
03:12	justin_smith	muhoo: if I could sell my frontend guys on clojure, pedastal seems like it could be cool
03:12	justin_smith	devn: we do complain about people using it as anything but a top level form
03:12	justin_smith	it isn't meant to compose
03:12	muhoo	i was goign to just use the routing and not mess with teh cljs stuff
03:12	muhoo	it looks pretty modular if i was reading the docs right
03:15	devn	justin_smith: how about when-not, cond, lazy-seq, if-not, and, or, if-let, when-let, binding, with-bindings, io!, dotimes, doseq, with-open, forb
03:15	devn	for*
03:15	devn	the list goes on
03:16	devn	do you use or? gasp -- does it compose!?
03:16	muhoo	~gentlemen
03:16	justin_smith	do I need to say a fifth time that I use macros and I am not saying they shouldn't exist?
03:16	clojurebot	You can't fight in here. This is the war room.
03:17	devn	im just dying, gentles.
03:17	devn	im sick of hearing people bitch about macros all the time
03:17	devn	it's negative crap
03:18	abaranosky	bitemyapp: hey dude, have you seen Frege? What are your thoughts on it?
03:18	devn	abaranosky: hey dude
03:19	abaranosky	devn: hey!
03:19	devn	how goes it?
03:19	abaranosky	good :)
03:19	devn	what have you been hacking on lately?
03:20	bitemyapp	abaranosky: I've watched it for a few years, not used it yet. I was thinking of recommending it to KirinDave.
03:20	bitemyapp	abaranosky: because his company is using Clojure, but only for the JVM. A number of engineers there are Haskellers.
03:20	devn	oh man, i wanna meet KirinDave
03:20	abaranosky	devn: mostly work, but also I have some side stuff both public and private
03:20	bitemyapp	devn: he's a nice person, easy to talk to.
03:20	devn	yeah, he's a midwestern gent
03:20	devn	we've chatted on the interwebs here and there
03:21	abaranosky	most recent stuff publicly was updating my print-foo library to support a code walking print-debugging macro
03:21	bitemyapp	devn: I'm from the midwest, maybe that's why I got along with him? :)
03:21	devn	i think there's something to it
03:21	devn	abaranosky: cool -- i didnt meant to put you on the spot
03:21	devn	i am 99% work mode at the moment
03:21	abaranosky	bitemyapp: I love Clojure, but Haskell on the JVM could tip myself in favor of it as the Clojure-Java interop is an important part of why I like Clojure so much
03:22	devn	ive been working on some cool stuff, but very busy reading and applying
03:22	bitemyapp	my output spiked recently, but after I release Simonides and do some misc work such as on Revise, I'll go dark again so I can moonlight on something business related.
03:22	bitemyapp	ucb: hi!
03:22	abaranosky	devn: I don't mind :)
03:22	bitemyapp	abaranosky: for my part, I've used Haskell and Clojure concurrently, with the bias being on the Clojure side...but I'm losing my patience with not having a type-checking "assistant".
03:22	devn	bitemyapp: bipolar disorder is what that's called
03:23	devn	OMG I'm Productiiiiiiiiiiivvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
03:23	abaranosky	bitemyapp: I'll play around with Frege and see what I can see there
03:23	bitemyapp	abaranosky: cool. Hopefully I'll get a chance to poke around too. I'm a little _ of the unicode comp, but we'll see.
03:23	ucb	bitemyapp: !
03:23	bitemyapp	devn: well when I say going dark, it's so I can work on something else, not so I can stop working.
03:24	bitemyapp	it's just something private as opposed to open-source-able.
03:24	abaranosky	yeah, I've got some top-secret ninja-level code project I've been working on for months now.
03:24	devn	bitemyapp: i have a similar thing at the moment, 3 of them actually :\
03:25	devn	2 startups and a lib
03:25	abaranosky	seems like we should all just team up on our uber-private stuff :P
03:25	devn	let's make an org
03:25	abaranosky	hehe
03:25	bitemyapp	abaranosky: how interesting is adwords campaign optimization to you? :P
03:25	abaranosky	www.closedsource.org
03:25	devn	bahaha
03:25	bitemyapp	www.no-cooties-allowed.lel
03:25	devn	COSS
03:26	abaranosky	bitemyapp: honestly... its moot. Literally all my time is taken up right now.
03:26	devn	Costly Open Source Software
03:26	justin_smith	abaranosky: parked
03:26	abaranosky	parked?
03:26	abaranosky	wasat mean?
03:26	devn	he's referring to the domain name
03:26	abaranosky	ha
03:26	justin_smith	has a default placeholder page on it
03:26	bitemyapp	...why would frege expect me to have a binary named "java7" on my path?
03:27	abaranosky	bitemyapp: do you use Emacs for Haskell stuff? Should I etup haskell-mode or is there a more preferred way to work with Haskell?
03:27	devn	abaranosky: with the lights off
03:27	bitemyapp	abaranosky: I use Emacs for Haskell stuff, yes. haskell-mode + scion were the standard way last I heard.
03:27	devn	in Yi
03:27	bitemyapp	some people use EclipseFP supposedly.
03:27	devn	Is Yi still around?
03:28	bitemyapp	devn: nah, leksah.
03:28	devn	ah
03:28	abaranosky	on another note, I was recommended to checkout Amethyst on OSX, and am enjoying it
03:28	devn	what's that?
03:28	abaranosky	it's an XMonad clone for OSX
03:28	devn	oh dude, i have something you want
03:28	devn	unless you have it
03:28	devn	do you have ShadowKiller?
03:29	devn	it gets rid of those drop shadows between windows
03:29	abaranosky	devn: just heard of it yesterday
03:29	devn	makes it flat
03:29	abaranosky	I tried installing it, but nothing seemed to happen so I gave up :\
03:29	abaranosky	I'll try again
03:29	devn	abaranosky: where'd you find it?
03:29	devn	their page where they used to host it is dead
03:29	justin_smith	that they chose the name shadowkiller over peterpan tells you something about the developers
03:29	abaranosky	same dude who recommended Amethyst over Twitter
03:30	devn	gotcha
03:30	bitemyapp	abaranosky: what? puffnfresh?
03:30	abaranosky	lemme see, I forgot :(
03:30	bitemyapp	$99 it's PuffnFresh
03:30	devn	so i have a ticket to the conj
03:30	devn	i have a flight
03:30	devn	and i have nowhere to stay
03:30	devn	not sure how that's going to work out
03:30	devn	but we'll see
03:31	abaranosky	@malfario - pay up
03:31	bitemyapp	abaranosky: damn.
03:31	abaranosky	devn: nice... 6 of us from Staples Innovation Lab (formerly Runa) will be there too
03:31	bitemyapp	abaranosky: you need to follow puffnfresh. Can I offer dinner in lieu of $99? :P
03:32	abaranosky	:)
03:32	abaranosky	bitemyapp: already follow puffnfresh
03:34	bitemyapp	abaranosky: you should probably start with the Language doc, here: https://github.com/Frege/frege/releases
03:34	bitemyapp	http://www.frege-lang.org/doc/frege/Prelude.html
03:35	bitemyapp	abaranosky: I'm going to just alias *.fr files to haskell-mode for now.
03:35	bitemyapp	I can't do anything about that damn unicode.
03:35	abaranosky	I'm going to try to do anything with Frege first :)
03:36	abaranosky	I know some Haskell but haven't really done much with it in a couple years
03:36	bitemyapp	the primary point of interest for Frege for Haskellers is that it has the type hierarchy done right.
03:36	abaranosky	bitemyapp: is there a good link to "get started"?
03:36	bitemyapp	Ostensibly: https://github.com/Frege/frege/wiki/Getting-Started
03:36	abaranosky	bitemyapp: you mean they fixed some of the cruft in the heirarchy?
03:36	bitemyapp	I don't think anything is "good" right now. Dragons yonder and all that.
03:37	abaranosky	which fixes are there?
03:37	bitemyapp	abaranosky: da.
03:37	abaranosky	I might like a Clojure-Frege combo, with Clojure for parts that I don't mind breaking a little more often
03:37	abaranosky	rofl
03:38	bitemyapp	abaranosky: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Functor-Applicative-Monad_Proposal
03:38	bitemyapp	anything related to this, Frege has supposedly fixed all in one go.
03:38	abaranosky	how'd the interop?
03:38	abaranosky	how's *
03:39	bitemyapp	It seems to take a similar attitude to Clojure, where it leverages the interop aggressively and makes it seamless but still has its own "thing" going on.
03:39	abaranosky	cannot complain about that approach in theory
03:39	bitemyapp	the main caveat I would submit with regards to Frege is that I have no idea how you can make purity and laziness efficient on the JVM
03:40	bitemyapp	I'm sure it's possible, but I'm not aware of any "strategies" like what Clojure does that would work in Frege.
03:40	bitemyapp	for example, you cannot do without TCO for obvious reasons.
03:40	bitemyapp	so your functions have to be abstracted, so far as I'm aware anyway.
03:41	bitemyapp	and possibly that means the JIT won't know how to inline things as nicely?
03:41	bitemyapp	this is conjecture though.
03:41	abaranosky	bitemyapp: yep all good questions
03:41	bitemyapp	abaranosky: fuck it, I'm starting #frege
03:41	abaranosky	let's do this
03:44	TEttinger	clojure isn't exactly blazing-fast a lot of the time either. I think the success of languages like clojure and ruby (even pre-JIT ruby) shows that a usable, easy-to-reason-about language can do well even if it isn't C-doing-pointer-arithmetic fast.
03:45	TEttinger	although most clojure code I see IS a lot better written than the little ruby I have seen
03:47	abaranosky	Ruby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
03:48	nightfly	ruby...
03:50	abaranosky	I'm not the biggest ruby fan, I guess
03:51	TEttinger	it was my first language, I wrote just a little bit of it
03:51	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: can you tell me more what you meant by "you cannot do without TCO for obvious reasons. so your functions have to be abstracted...?" I'm curious.
03:52	TEttinger	I really prefer clojure to just about everything else these days
03:53	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: Clojure is fast partly because it generates the vanilla JVM bytecode for the invocation of static methods.
03:53	justin_smith	ddellacosta: I think that means that idiomatic Haskell style programming uses recursion extensively, and since the jvm cannot do actuallo TCO, in order to not break the stack you need to implement TCO, which means your functions cannot be normal JVM callable objects, you need a layer that does that transform
03:53	ddellacosta	Ruby is nicer for scripting. Came back to it recently after writing Clojure for more than a year, when writing a git hook, and found my Clojure experience had really changed how I used Ruby--and made it a lot nicer
03:53	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: the trade-off is that the JVM static methods are "stackful" and cannot be TCO'd.
03:54	ddellacosta	bitemyapp, justin_smith: gotcha...found this too while I was at it: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19462314/why-cant-tail-calls-be-optimized-in-jvm-based-lisps
03:54	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: you cannot TCO your "functions" unless they are not stackful invokestatic JVM methods. Which means you might not be benefiting from the JVM as much as you'd like.
03:54	abaranosky	ddellacosta: "Ruby: The Good Parts" :)
03:55	ddellacosta	bitemyapp, justin_smith: thanks, those comments were all helpful. :-)
03:55	ddellacosta	abaranosky: yeah, there are nice parts to it! It does have some Lisp-y and Smalltalk-y elements, after all.
03:55	bitemyapp	justin_smith: to say that Haskell users use recursion extensively is an understatement :)
03:55	justin_smith	true
04:01	Sonderblade	bitemyapp: i think i use recursion less in haskell than other languages, in most circumstances you can use some smart code combinator instead of recursion imho
04:03	epichero	Gee, a programmer using recursion..
04:09	lpvb	how do I define my own types and match against them? say I want a slightly different vector type only different in name and I want a (myvector?) function
04:09	lpvb	so I can differentiate between normal vectors and myvector
04:10	abaranosky	`instance?`
04:10	justin_smith	lpvb: generally with the jvm you are working in terms of classes rather than types, defrecord is a handy way to handle it
04:10	lpvb	?
04:10	justin_smith	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/defrecord
04:12	justin_smith	lpvb: the link I just pasted shows how to use defrecord and instance? together
04:12	justin_smith	also if you really want to switch behavior based on type, there is defmulti
04:13	justin_smith	but I find things easier if I avoid all of these featuers and stick to vanilla datatypes and functions
04:13	abaranosky	no need to make a defrecord for a vector type
04:13	justin_smith	usually at least
04:13	abaranosky	defrecords model map-like things
04:13	justin_smith	yeah
04:13	abaranosky	better to use deftype
04:13	lpvb	justin_smith: thanks
04:14	justin_smith	abaranosky: ok, cool. I had never really found a use for deftype, but I guess that is the usecase
04:15	abaranosky	justin_smith: it'd be especially egregious to make a vector type be map-like
04:15	justin_smith	abaranosky: I just imagined the vector would be one field in it
04:15	justin_smith	even with deftype the vector is a field hiding in it, no?
04:16	abaranosky	yeah that's true
04:17	abaranosky	but you get other kinds of equality semantics built into defrecords that you probably don't want
04:17	justin_smith	OK
04:18	justin_smith	as in structural equality?
04:19	abaranosky	Not sure, I don't often need to use either enough to be expert at the idiocincracies of each
04:19	justin_smith	as a preference, I generally would prefer structural equality and keyword based access of all my fields - and my understanding is that that is what differentiates defrecord from deftype
04:20	justin_smith	plus default constructors from a map
04:20	justin_smith	agreed, I usually don't need either, and actually avoid them if I don't need them
04:22	justin_smith	really, the pedantic way to make your own vector subclass would likely be to use gen-class with :extends, but that makes iterative development difficult
04:23	lpvb	sounds like there's not a perfect way to do what I want o.o
04:24	ddellacosta	what is the "official" use of bang in regards to side-effect-having functions? In clojurescript, for example, I've been using ! to signify a function that will actually manipulate the DOM. Would this be appropriate? I remember reading someone suggesting that, with regard to the meaning of "!," there are side-effects, and then there are side-effects...
04:24	justin_smith	making new types and dispatching on them is not a normal way to do things in most clojure code I have seen; a lot of us seem to prefer using generic and very general datastructures - fewer types and more functions on them
04:24	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: strictly speaking, it has to do with STM.
04:24	bitemyapp	swap! for example.
04:25	justin_smith	bitemyapp: atoms are STM? I thought they were not.
04:25	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: swap! or reset! make a lot of sense to me; I'm just not sure how to transfer that to a general concept. Seems like I'm doing something similar when I'm setting a class in the DOM, for example
04:26	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: I use a more liberal interpretation and use bangs as an impure warning.
04:26	justin_smith	ddellacosta: notice that aset is not aset!
04:26	bitemyapp	justin_smith: I thought so too but I'm riffing off something tbaldridge said about bang meaning STM-unsafe or something.
04:26	lpvb	justin_smith: so you're saying I should dispatch on keywords perhaps? [:contains-data 1 2 3] [:contains-different-data 1 (Object.) 3] ?
04:26	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: yah, I have been doing the same. Just wanted to get a sense of what the consensus is, if any such thing exists in Clojure-land
04:26	ddellacosta	justin_smith: sorry, what do you mean? re: aset/aset!
04:27	justin_smith	ddellacosta: aset destructively alters a jvm array
04:27	justin_smith	there is no aset!
04:27	ddellacosta	justin_smith: ah, I see what you're saying: even something w/o a ! can be impure
04:27	justin_smith	bitemyapp: http://clojure.org/concurrent_programming this lists atoms and STM as separate things
04:27	bitemyapp	justin_smith: I didn't say I disagree
04:27	ddellacosta	justin_smith: that's exactly why I'm asking, actually--what are the actual (implied) semantics of "!" ?
04:28	bitemyapp	I said the atom functions were marked with bang because they were STM unsafe according to tbaldridge, not because atoms are STM.
04:28	justin_smith	bitemyapp: and I wasn't intending to argue, just citing a source
04:28	bitemyapp	you don't need STM to make atomic changes to a single thingy.
04:28	ddellacosta	why would we not use it with aset--because we know that is java interop, or something? Confusing
04:29	ddellacosta	lpvb: what about core.match or core.typed?
04:29	bitemyapp	I can't believe I'm quoting this
04:29	justin_smith	I think ! is for things otherwise pure? that is why I thought of aset, because arrays like the dom are never pure
04:29	bitemyapp	"The names of functions/macros that are not safe in STM transactions should end with an exclamation mark. (i.e. reset!)"
04:29	justin_smith	I could be wrong
04:29	bitemyapp	please don't make me do that again.
04:29	ddellacosta	haha, didn't mean to get you guys going...
04:30	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: no no, I'm just whining about having to quote batsov's guide as an explanation of the bang.
04:30	justin_smith	bitemyapp: quoting what? I am interested
04:30	ddellacosta	but, this is exactly the problem with "!" I guess. It's not clear. Hrm.
04:30	justin_smith	ddellacosta: not getting going, its something I am as curious about as you are
04:30	ddellacosta	justin_smith: yeah, I was kinda joking. ;-)
04:30	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: it's clear to me. the official meaning is, "don't use in a transaction"
04:30	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: yeah, I guess your point is that it is limited--but you also said that you use it for functions that are impure, generally, no?
04:31	lpvb	ddellacosta: that's not going to work, I don't want to check my whole vector to see if the data is of one type to deal with or another type to deal with differently
04:31	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: yes, because I wouldn't want those functions used in STM either, even if it's not strictly impossible.
04:31	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: I do as well. So it seems like informal usage is separate from "official" (such as it is) usage
04:31	ddellacosta	hmm, okay
04:31	bitemyapp	'ish
04:32	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: you're a smart guy, I'm sure you'll do what makes sense for your code.
04:32	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: haha, thanks for your confidence in me. :-)
04:32	justin_smith	lpvb: maybe more like {:context "foo" :contents [1 2 3]} {:context "bar" :contents [\a \b \c]}
04:33	justin_smith	but if types are really what you want, deftype and defstruct are not too difficult to use
04:33	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: but seriously, I'm really just curious if anything exists like a consensus about how to use it. That helps, thanks.
04:33	lpvb	justin_smith: can I just attach meta data to a vector instead?
04:34	justin_smith	,(with-meta [1 2 3] {:context "a"})
04:34	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
04:34	justin_smith	maybe
04:34	justin_smith	I don't know how well metadata is preserved by various functions
04:34	justin_smith	you would probably need to do a lot of bookkeeping to keep reattaching it
04:35	justin_smith	wheras with a defstruct / deftype it keeps the class that identifies it
04:35	ddellacosta	yeah, metadata seems like it wouldn't necessarily be very reliable. You'd end up re-making your own type system, poorly
04:36	justin_smith	lpvb: on another level, if the reason you want to differentiate these vectors is what they have in them, you can sometimes do the dispatching on the part of the code that touches the contents
04:37	justin_smith	and in practice, for me at least, I know what types I am dealing with, or what union of types, because I know where they came from
04:38	justin_smith	worst case I need to do a postwalk conjing #(class %) into an atom of a set
04:38	justin_smith	and see what all was in there
04:38	justin_smith	then make sure I cover those classes
04:39	justin_smith	but I don't know your design, so there could of course be other concerns
04:43	justin_smith	I'm calling it a night, seeya
05:19	smiler	I'm having some trouble with clojurescript and source maps (I think). The cljs-references have the wrong path generated. It ends up being something like "http://localhost:8080/home/smiler/src/myproject/target/thebuild-id/myproject/myfile.cljs" and the webserver will ofcourse generate a 404 for that file.
05:19	smiler	It should strip "/home/smiler/src/myproject/" away from that path.
05:53	WWWest	Hi all
05:53	WWWest	does anyone have a good link on proper/clean error handling in clojurescript?
05:55	WWWest	For example, I remember reading something about exceptions not being caught if they happen in a lazy seq. So... how do you deal with this? What about clean up functions?
06:29	clgv	WWWest: I expect that this behavior of exception in lazyseq realisation is the same as in clojure
06:29	clgv	WWWest: but to be able to give you a hint you need to be more specific
07:02	Jarda	hmm
07:02	Jarda	how can I use clojure.walk in clojurescript?
07:02	Jarda	now I get [14:02:31.721] TypeError: clojure.walk is undefined @ http://localhost:3000/js/app.js:40045
07:09	Jarda	oh, I can't use with full path
07:09	Jarda	need to refer them in require
08:07	bruceadams	?
08:36	TimMc	`cbp: Hmm, what's up?
08:40	`cbp	TimMc: I though you were gonna ask me something yesterday
08:49	TimMc	Oh, I don't remember that.
08:49	TimMc	To the logs!
08:50	TimMc	Right! You were looking for projects.
08:51	`cbp	TimMc: yeah!
08:52	`cbp	TimMc: unfortunately i have to go again! hah
08:52	`cbp	I'll be back in about 1 hour =p
09:07	cemerick	dnolen: any idea how to convince GClosure to not inline exported scalars used in function bodies?
09:14	noncom\|2	if, using core.async, i create a (go (loop-recur)) block inside a call to a method of a proxied Java object, enabling the communication of the proxied object via the publicated channel with the rest of the program, creating a (sub) there, what will happen to the sub and the involved channel upon the proxied object being GCed ?
10:07	`cbp	TimMc: hi, sorry about that. Were you gonna tell me something?
10:26	TimMc	`cbp: Oh, just curious what sorts of projects you're interested in. Large, small? Collaborations, contributions to existing large projects, or new projects? Libraries, or apps?
10:26	dobry-den	WWWest: maybe you can collect some ideas from http://swannodette.github.io/2013/08/31/asynchronous-error-handling/
10:27	TimMc	And of course there's always the Swearjure compiler, if you want to do some purely algorithmic useless programming. :-P
10:28	`cbp	TimMc: heh, anything is good really. As long as I learn something and preferably be productive at the same time
10:29	nDuff	noncom\|2: I'm not sure I follow the scenario -- how are you proposing to have an object GC'd that you can still reference, without explicit use of weak references?
10:30	TimMc	Oh, well, then not Swearjure.
10:30	TimMc	I mean you'll learn something about compilers (and Clojure) for sure, but the end result is just a toy for scaring people.
10:30	`cbp	it does sound really fun though
10:31	noncom\|2	nDuff: well, the object has a method `initialize` which i override with proxy and install the core.async communications to talk with the objects insides. so you are saying that in that case the object won't be GC'd since it is referenced by core.async.. but it is not, it is only that inside the method there is a (go (loop-recur)) thing which influences the objects aggregated properties..
10:32	TimMc	https://github.com/timmc/swearjure/blob/master/src/org/timmc/swearjure.clj is the start of it. I probably have more locally. It needs some more designing to make pre-swearjure functions first-class (you need to do a transform on the args to call them properly).
10:32	TimMc	But if you want to do something useful, you should probably try to contribute work to an existing email client to make it easy for peopel to use encryption. :-P
10:32	noncom\|2	then i just lose any references to the object from my program, but the go-loop-recur still functions inside the objects method... ?
10:35	nDuff	noncom\|2: Can you provide a SSCCE?
10:38	dobry-den	`cbp: If you're interested in Bitcoin, I've been implementing it in Clojure
10:40	indigo	dobry-den: Ooh, that's cool
10:41	wedr	indeed
10:42	`cbp	unfortunately ive never been involved with anything related to bitcoin before :P
10:43	dobry-den	same
10:43	noncom\|2	nDuff: i hope i have properly shown what i am trying to do here: https://www.refheap.com/20602
10:43	noncom\|2	core.async is still ne for me so i might be mistaken somewhere
10:43	noncom\|2	s/ne/new
10:44	noncom\|2	updated the refheap to make the actual call for the init
10:45	noncom\|2	oops, and corrected the reset state form to be valid
10:45	noncom\|2	sorry
10:51	dobry-den	though i'm ready for someone to write the O'Reilly book on Datomic.
10:52	dobry-den	but instead of an animal on the cover, just hickey's hair
10:52	nDuff	noncom\|2: Runnable code would be a substantial improvement; the obfuscation you're doing there obscures some important details.
10:56	noncom\|2	nDuff: ok, i will, but some time later, can't do it right now, gotta a task to do..
10:56	noncom\|2	thanks!
10:56	noncom\|2	i will write you when i see you
10:57	rkneufeld	Alex Robbins, are you here sir?
11:13	danielszmulewicz	dobry-den: +1 (Hickey's hair on O'reilly cover)
11:18	dobry-den	Tangela
11:22	jtoy	can i store hiccup code in a file to render?
11:24	joegallo	jtoy: as opposed to?
11:24	dobry-den	jtoy: yeah, you can read clojure datastructures from a file
11:24	joegallo	:)
11:24	dobry-den	but i dont see the point
11:26	dobry-den	being able to evaluate your template code with the ease in which you can evaluate (+ 1 1) is baller
11:26	dobry-den	within the same file, i mean
11:38	devn	anyone know if this is documented anywhere?
11:38	devn	,(class (merge {:c 3 :d 5} (array-map :q 33 :r 99)))
11:38	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
11:38	devn	,(class (merge (array-map :q 33 :r 99) {:c 3 :d 5}))
11:38	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
11:39	llasram	devn: What's the confusion?
11:39	devn	I guess I didn't really know what to expect in this case. Can anyone explain why persistentarraymap wins in both cases?
11:39	llasram	,(class {:c 3 :d 5})
11:39	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
11:39	devn	err whoops
11:39	devn	haha
11:40	BobSchack	devn for small hashmaps < 4 I think clojure uses array maps
11:40	devn	so i guess im concerned about whether or not i lose order guarantees
11:40	devn	BobSchack: ahhhh
11:40	devn	so I need a bigger sample to see the real behavior here
11:41	danielszmulewicz	b
11:41	BobSchack	dven http://clojure.org/data_structures#Data Structures-ArrayMaps
11:41	justin_smith	,(class (zipmap (range 3) (range)))
11:41	imok20	hey everyone! I'm struggling with the best way to get something like this (https://gist.github.com/ihodes/7373834) to work. I'd like to define a bunch of functions from a (rather long) list of lists—not quite sure how to do this with the way clojure resolves defs (i mean, the obvious solution is just writing out the defs for each/having some elisp write it out for each, but that's no fun)
11:41	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
11:41	justin_smith	,(class (zipmap (range 30) (range)))
11:41	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap
11:42	devn	ah man, bummer
11:42	devn	im gonna lose order guarantees when i assoc
11:43	justin_smith	imok20: why not put them all in one data structure and look them up, instead of making a top level definition for each one?
11:44	BobSchack	devn you could you use php arrays :) They maintain order
11:44	devn	bahahaha
11:44	imok20	justin_smith: that could work, but i'm not a fan of the UX for that. i'm thinking that might be the reasonable thing to do though
11:45	devn	imok20: so you expect what to come out the other side?
11:46	justin_smith	imok20: what about instead of defining respond-100 respond-101 ... you define respond, which takes a number and returns the response for that number ((respond 100) ...)
11:46	devn	you just want to intern a bunch of vars?
11:46	BobSchack	devn https://github.com/flatland/ordered
11:46	devn	,(intern ns 'foo "bar")
11:46	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
11:47	devn	#'my.ns/foo
11:47	devn	foo => "bar"
11:47	devn	but i think justin_smith is giving you good advice, FWIW
11:47	imok20	justin_smith: I have the same picky objection haha. i guess there's just no way to do it in a way that provides the UX i want without writing out all the defs at the top level.
11:48	imok20	devn: i want e.g. respond-100, respond-101, … respond-404, …
11:48	imok20	defined in the ns
11:48	Wild_Cat`	imok20: how about (respond 100)?
11:48	justin_smith	Wild_Cat`: that was my suggestion he just rejected
11:49	devn	i don't understand what's wrong with that
11:49	Wild_Cat`	justin_smith: whoops, my bad. I need more coffee.
11:49	devn	seems like a pretty reasonable "UX"
11:49	devn	it's damn near the same thing
11:49	devn	and it's simpler
11:49	imok20	devn: it's fine, just not what i'd like. i think i'll probably go with the earlier suggestion of a map -> fn lookup
11:49	Wild_Cat`	well, I can see how you'd lose tab-completion in the REPL, but OTOH if respond is a map and not a function, it's "better"
11:49	Wild_Cat`	(because now you can print it out)
11:50	imok20	i wanted to make sure i wasn't missing something obvious, haven't written much clojure for 3 years…
11:50	imok20	thanks for the help!
11:50	Wild_Cat`	,(let [respond {100 "Continue" 200 "OK"}] (respond 100))
11:50	clojurebot	"Continue"
11:51	imok20	Wild_Cat: that's not what the fn i've posited does
11:51	imok20	that would be a fine solution for doing that, but not what i'm doing unfortunately
11:51	silasdavis	um does clojure use multiple cores some of it's library functions by default?
11:51	silasdavis	multiple threads
11:51	silasdavis	I should say
11:52	silasdavis	because I'm seeing 600% cpu usage on what I thought was a single-threaded application written in clojure
11:52	justin_smith	silasdavis: it should use more than one core if you have them, unless you prevent the jvm from using more than one core
11:52	silasdavis	I'm just wondering where the other threads are coming from
11:52	justin_smith	silasdavis: what kind of app?
11:52	dobry-den	Does anybody else use 'hello' instead of \"hello\" in docstrings?
11:53	devn	imok20: (defmacro defresponse [[code msg]] `(def ~(symbol (str "respond-" code)) ~msg))
11:53	devn	(defresponse [100 "hello there"])
11:53	justin_smith	silasdavis: some things are implicitly threaded, ie. ring makes a new thread for each request
11:53	devn	the macro police will sound the sirens, but don't pay any attention -- if you want to do that, that's a way to do it
11:53	dobry-den	i think i'm going to start using those pretty unicode quotation marks in docstrings
11:53	imok20	devn: right, but i can't map that across a list of codes/messages and have them all defined at compilation time
11:54	imok20	can i?
11:54	imok20	wouldn't that be the same issue of being unable to resolve the symbol if i mapped that as in https://gist.github.com/ihodes/7373834
11:54	justin_smith	imok20: not with a map, but with a top level doseq you could, maybe
11:54	devn	imok20: try it :)
11:55	justin_smith	but anything but defs at the top level is asking for trouble
11:55	imok20	my impression was only do was treated specially at the top level
11:55	imok20	i'll give it a whirl
11:55	imok20	justin_smith: why do you say that?
11:55	justin_smith	because then loading the ns has side effects
11:56	justin_smith	it isn't always a problem of course
11:56	justin_smith	but it can be a source of trouble
11:56	imok20	justin_smith: but well-defined side-effects isomorphic to having just defined those fns by hand, right?
11:57	justin_smith	frankly I am not 100% certain a doseq is guaranteed to be fully run at ns load time in a clean way - but if all it does is def some vars it could be OK - I really don't know
11:57	silasdavis	justin_smith, but things like map, update-in and so on are not right?
11:57	justin_smith	I do know I have gotten weird bugs by trying to do things other than def at the top level
11:57	devn	imok20: give it a whirl! :)
11:58	silasdavis	are the persistent data structure constructors multi-threaded?
11:59	dnolen	ClojureScript 0.0-2024 going out, fixes a regression around source maps
11:59	justin_smith	I wouldn't put it past the optimizer to realize two forms in your function body do not rely on one another in any way and can thus be done in parallel - but I don't know that clojure actually does that
12:04	devn	dnolen: awesome.
12:08	seangrove	technomancy spreading his propaganda... "there's no reason lein shouldn't have a debugger built-in"
12:09	seangrove	All part of his plan to ultimately have the clojure language subsumed into the lein project, and have all copyright assigned to him
12:09	devn	heh
12:10	justin_smith	we are working on a standalone debugger, with a browser based UI, that would connect to and debug other clojure projects from the outside
12:10	seangrove	justin_smith: As long as there's an explicit API so other frontends can be built, that seems brilliant
12:11	justin_smith	we are using the same dt-thread interface that jvisualvm etc. use
12:11	devn	imok20: (doseq [[code msg] http-status-codes] (intern ns (symbol (str "respond-" code)) msg))
12:11	justin_smith	I can see about keeping the json api generic
12:12	justin_smith	but it is already built on top of a very generic api
12:12	justin_smith	just one that doesn't have friendly enough clojure tooling yet (imo)
12:13	imok20	devn: okay, will try. doseqing over the forms with the macro did not work, i don't think?, I got "nth not supported on this type: Symbol", though the macro itself does work. will try this now
12:15	imok20	nice, using doseq instead of map works. so do is treated specially at the top level too, i guess? nice
12:15	imok20	thanks :)
12:15	justin_smith	map does nothing if nothing uses its output
12:15	devn	imok20: y/w
12:15	justin_smith	so a map at the top level does nothing
12:15	imok20	justin_smith: not at compile-time
12:16	imok20	(i guess?)
12:16	imok20	so yeah, i guess it'd be a total no-op no matter what since it's lazy, too
12:16	justin_smith	that's what I am saying: the only reason map evaluates anything at the top level of the repl is the implicit print
12:16	justin_smith	if you prevent that you see the same behavior
12:17	justin_smith	,(do (map println (range 10)) nil)
12:17	clojurebot	nil
12:17	justin_smith	,(map println (range 10))
12:17	clojurebot	(0\n1\n2\n3\n4\n5\n6\n7\n8\n9\nnil nil nil nil nil ...)
12:18	imok20	yeah, which i totally should've caught. living getting back into clojure, though. developing and setting things up is SO much easier now
12:18	imok20	(and if anyone is curious, the final working solution is: https://gist.github.com/7374418)
12:20	devn	imok20: welcome back
12:20	imok20	(well, i added a ! to the end of my def-form)
12:20	imok20	den: thanks :)
12:20	imok20	devn *
12:21	justin_smith	one gotcha with something that clever is that usually in order to check out a definition in some ns, you would expect to find a form declaring that defintion in the ns - so now someone needs to dig a bit deeper to find out how something was defined ("someone" here including editors and things like `source` or `doc` that are used in the repl or by the editor to provide tooling)
12:23	imok20	justin_smith: true, definitely. and there will be a nice big comment there to help with greping for it. i just can't be bothered to write out a correct defn for each fn; even the status codes and text were all grabbed and formatted by javascript from a w3 web page :) i'm all about the lazy.
12:26	justin_smith	imok20: but I don't grep to find definitions, I use the source command in the repl
12:26	justin_smith	and so does my editor
12:27	justin_smith	similar issues for the ability of stack traces to list a line number
12:27	justin_smith	or even function names I think
12:28	seangrove	bitemyapp: Seems like DaaS could be done now pretty nicely
12:29	seangrove	Might be a fun (few) weekend hack sometime if you're up for it
12:29	totos	Hello is there something wrong with my-reverse ? (defn my-reverse [x] (if (nil? (rest x)) (first x) (cons (my-reverse (rest x)) (first x)))) '(1 2 3 4 )
12:30	rasmusto	totos: check out rest vs next
12:31	totos	rasmusto: oh thanks
12:31	rasmusto	totos: alternatively, you could replace nil? with empty?
12:32	totos	rasmusto: nice , thanks again :)
12:39	muhoo	what libraries, if any, are people using for fsm's in clojure?
12:39	justin_smith	also, a destruction like [h & t :as x] avoids the multiple first / rest calls
12:39	justin_smith	*destructuring
12:41	totos	justin_smith: i always forget that in clojure
12:44	noncom\|2	what was the best way to filter [nil nil] pair ot [whatever nil] pairs from a {} ?
12:45	justin_smith	,(into {} (remove (comp nil? second) {:a 0 :b nil :c 1 :d nil}))
12:45	clojurebot	{:a 0, :c 1}
12:45	justin_smith	maybe?
12:46	jtoy	can I use hiccup templates in files and render those?
12:46	justin_smith	noncom\|2: or did you want ,(into {} (filter (comp nil? second) {:a 0 :b nil :c 1 :d nil}))
12:47	jtoy	i dont see it being used like that
12:47	technomancy	jtoy: hiccup templates are functions, and functions can go in files
12:47	justin_smith	,(into {} (filter (comp nil? second) {:a 0 :b nil :c 1 :d nil}))
12:47	clojurebot	{:b nil, :d nil}
12:47	noncom\|2	wow, the first one !
12:48	noncom\|2	also, afaik a {} only allows for a single key of nil, how do i remove it from a {} if i have say {nil nil :a 1 :b 2} ?
12:48	justin_smith	noncom\|2: my code was just checking the values, not keys
12:49	justin_smith	you could make a version that also checks for the key being nil
12:49	noncom\|2	yes, that is task 1, but checking for keys is task 2 - so i have 2 tasks.. one is solved :)
12:49	justin_smith	,(dissoc (into {} (remove (comp nil? second) {nil :blarg :a 0 :b nil :c 1 :d nil})) nil)
12:49	clojurebot	{:a 0, :c 1}
12:49	justin_smith	that's what dissoc is for :)
12:50	justin_smith	but at that point you probably want to refactor and not do a one liner
12:50	noncom\|2	right. i just wasn't using (comp) uch in my expertise... so that's a good start for it, thanks!
12:50	noncom\|2	s/uch/much
12:50	jtoy	technomancy: do i need to do anything special to read in the files or just use eval?
12:50	technomancy	jtoy: require is the best way
12:51	justin_smith	noncom\|2: yeah, my main usage of comp is to do deeper inspection of a structure for a predicate
12:51	technomancy	you can use load-file if for some reason you don't want the file to have a proper namespace, but there are basically no good reasons to do this
12:51	muhoo	~fsm
12:51	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
12:52	justin_smith	muhoo: core.async go blocks generate an fsm behind the scenes
12:52	imok20	justin_smith: I guess adding metadata while interning it might help some of those?
12:52	justin_smith	dunno if that helps you at all or not
12:52	justin_smith	imok20: yeah, it absolutely would
12:52	justin_smith	imok20: just makes the solution a little more complex
12:53	imok20	justin_smith: any suggestions as to what is important metadata?
12:53	muhoo	justin_smith: interesting idea. not sure it'd help for this tho
12:53	justin_smith	imok20: you can look at what defn generates
12:53	muhoo	i've got a crazy complex login process that has to be managed, with lots of possible states and transitions, and i'd like to keep it relatively organized and maintainable
12:54	justin_smith	imok20: (source defn) will help with that :)
12:54	imok20	justin_smith: touché
12:55	justin_smith	imok20: it uses a local called m to build up the metadata in a let form
12:55	justin_smith	so you could look at what goes in m
13:00	justin_smith	lol
13:01	cark	i'm trying to test the sourcemap thing but it looks like lein can't find clojurescript 2024 yet, how long usually until a version shows up on maven ?
13:01	devn	cark: http://build.clojure.org/
13:02	devn	it looks like it should be out there?
13:02	cark	couldn't find it on search.maven.org
13:02	seangrove	cark: Yeah, not listed on http://search.maven.org/#browse%7C-334501002
13:02	devn	dnolen: might have a better idea
13:02	Bronsa	yeah it takes a while for a release to hit maven
13:02	devn	i have limited experience with maven releases
13:03	devn	cark: in the meantime you could always just grab the source and built it yourself
13:03	cark	devn : just like me =)
13:03	devn	build*
13:03	devn	it's pretty straightforward
13:03	cark	yep, just asking here in case it's only a matter of minutes
13:03	devn	nod
13:03	dnolen	cark: probably will show in maven central later in the day - ./script/build if you want to install it locally
13:03	devn	is bootstrap still needed dnolen?
13:04	cark	dnolen: ah nice i'll try that
13:04	cark	thanks !
13:04	dnolen	devn: no
13:04	devn	dnolen: oh. cool. so can that guy get rm'd?
13:04	dnolen	devn: well not for installing it locally anyway, for dev boostrap still needed
13:05	devn	oh, that's what i meant -- sorry
13:05	devn	dnolen: what needs work in cljs these days?
13:05	dnolen	devn: lots of stuff, you can see in JIRA :)
13:06	devn	:) i'll take a peek
13:06	seangrove	Interesting recruiter email just showed up: https://gist.github.com/sgrove/7b40265b91948d8f26be
13:07	seangrove	dnolen: Are you in their database? Seems they have a few with more than 5 years of cljs experience :P
13:07	devn	seangrove: i have a hunch on who sent that :)
13:07	seangrove	devn: I don't like to shame though, so I just redacted it ;)
13:08	dnolen	heh
13:08	devn	seangrove: interesting post btw on the clojure mailing list
13:08	devn	apple looking for a clojure contract-to-hire
13:08	devn	i wonder why
13:08	technomancy	itunes drm =(
13:08	muhoo	yep
13:08	devn	sad
13:09	seangrove	devn: hrm, didn't see that one at all. Interesting stuff.
13:09	devn	oh, i got you confused
13:09	bitemyapp	seangrove: yes, but I'm still not going to do it. :P
13:09	devn	i was thinking of seancorfield
13:09	devn	my bad
13:09	muhoo	the strong correlation between lucrative and evil is not a new phenomenon, though it remains just as sad.
13:11	devn	how do you guys know it's DRM?
13:11	muhoo	says someone who just realized the bluecoat webproxies on his mobile isp's network can be used to do an MITM attack and sniff ssl traffic
13:12	devn	i know they mentioned itunes, but i guess i dont remember seeing anything about DRM, but i only skimmed it
13:12	muhoo	and probably are, in fact, being used for that
13:12	bitemyapp	o_O
13:12	technomancy	devn: I haven't actually used itunes, but I'm assuming that's plumbed all the way through the server-side components
13:14	TimMc	muhoo: THat's the flip side of compressors, yes.
13:14	devn	oh, sweet -- datomic pro starter
13:14	devn	awesome news.
13:15	devn	time to deploy to heroku with pg
13:15	bitemyapp	devn: yeah that's what seangrove was talking about.
13:16	muhoo	devn: i was just going to say that
13:16	devn	im excited to play with pro on heroku
13:16	muhoo	but datomic is so resource heavy, both the transactor and the peer, i dunno how it'll work on heroku
13:16	devn	shrug -- it'll be a fun experiment, but yeah you may well be right
13:16	devn	some tweaking is probably in order to the default settings
13:16	muhoo	i've had to use 8GB VPS'es for both
13:17	muhoo	then again, why use pg, dynamodb seems pretty cheap
13:17	bitemyapp	you could run it on Heroku.
13:17	bitemyapp	just require tweaking the JVM opts.
13:18	muhoo	the transactor though?
13:18	muhoo	hmm, could run the transactor on a vps, the backend on dynamo, and various front-ends with peers on heroku
13:18	muhoo	limit of 2 peers though.
13:20	bitemyapp	if you're good at writing reasonably efficient Clojure code, 2 peers can serve a lot of people.
13:20	bitemyapp	muhoo: we've got one peer running a data warehouse, for example.
13:29	Raynes	Wikipedia is down. I just became a janitor.
13:29	Raynes	http://xkcd.com/903/
13:30	muhoo	a friend coined the word "googlectual" --> someone who appears smart but is just really fast with the searches
13:34	TimMc	help what is a janitor
13:35	bitemyapp	muhoo: welcome to how I answer 90% of the questions on IRC
13:36	DidYouTryGoogle	bitemyapp: Do you want this name?
13:37	bitemyapp	TimMc: only half.
13:38	muhoo	$google google
13:38	lazybot	[Google] http://www.google.com/
13:38	seangrove	TimMc: Shapeshifter!
13:38	bitemyapp	TimMc: I want that nick to swoop in in an automated fashion whenever somebody asks a Google'able question.
13:38	muhoo	$google just fucking google it
13:38	lazybot	[Just Fucking Google It] http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/
13:38	TimMc	Sounds like you want an AI.
13:39	seangrove	bitemyapp: Why not add a lazybot command, `$google <handle>` that'll respond with a link containing a google query for whatever the handle last said?
13:39	muhoo	seangrove: the #debian bot has something like that
13:39	bitemyapp	seangrove: that's a good idea.
13:39	seangrove	muhoo: Damn those debians, always one step ahead.
13:39	muhoo	you can msg factoids to people to dismiss them efficiently
13:39	bitemyapp	Efficient Dismissal sounds like a metaphor for forced suicide.
13:40	bitemyapp	Fall on your sword, sir.
13:40	muhoo	#debian was quite a bar brawl at one time
13:40	TimMc	The best bot I've ever seen was fajita in #apache.
13:40	yogthos	I guess feudal Japan had efficient dismissal all figured out then :P
13:40	TimMc	It was amazing watching people come in and ask a question, get answered by fajita, thank the bot, and leave.
13:41	seangrove	Wow, that's pretty cool
13:42	muhoo	works great for projects with lots of peopel asking very repetitive n00b questions
13:42	bitemyapp	muhoo: I miss those days.
13:42	TimMc	nod I don't know if it would work as well for a programming language channel.
13:42	muhoo	bitemyapp: feudal japan?
13:42	bitemyapp	muhoo: hahahaha, the IRC bar brawls.
13:42	justin_smith	~lazy
13:42	clojurebot	lazy is hard
13:44	stuartsierra	While we're on the subject of bots, some automatic links to http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/FAQ might be useful. #bash does this to great effect.
13:45	muhoo	one of the nicer bots i've seen was the one in #openwrt, which would post new forum posts or issues and issue-update statuses
13:45	bitemyapp	stuartsierra: that could use expanded, haha.
13:45	muhoo	so bugs got attention lightning fast, and got closed quickly too
13:46	TimMc	muhoo: Wouldn't help too much here; only a couple of people actually have the power to address bugs.
13:47	TimMc	Oh, might help on the contribs, I guess.
13:47	muhoo	TimMc: yeah, maybe in #leiningen
13:48	technomancy	yeah, issue opening announcements would be cool in #leiningen
13:48	TimMc	lazybot, get on it
13:48	technomancy	lazybot has a few github integration features; couldn't be too difficult
13:49	muhoo	it pulls in tentacles, right?
13:49	technomancy	undoubtedly
13:49	logic_prog	are there any DSLS in clojure for writing code in NativeClient or ASM.js ?
13:49	justin_smith	natural language processing that decits that 1) something was expected to happen that did not happen and 2) the person was using map
13:49	justin_smith	*detects
13:50	muhoo	a laziness alarm
13:52	muhoo	hmm, this is making me curious to see what kibit is like these days
13:54	TimMc	justin_smith: println + map or for without dorun or doall
13:54	TimMc	Follow refheap and gist links too.
13:55	justin_smith	well once it is checking out code it doesn't need NLP, it can just slurp it up as edn or something
13:56	muhoo	huh, kibit hates (->> ...)
13:56	justin_smith	make a markov chain bot, and feed it all the best libraries, then just let it generate new code
13:56	TimMc	Isn't that how you code? That's what I do.
13:57	justin_smith	bonus, the code that doesn't compile you just use as the body of spam emails
13:57	justin_smith	no bit wasted
13:57	mtp	sounds like a plan to me
13:58	bitemyapp	we use printouts of the non-compiling code to bury the houses of recruiters and trap them inside
13:58	bitemyapp	then the bonfire starts
13:58	seangrove	bitemyapp: Might help some people on hn if you post some snippets about your ops experience with datomic
13:59	muhoo	(:require [million-monkeys "0.1.0"])
13:59	seangrove	Seems quite a few people are interested
13:59	TimMc	huh, is the one in clojure automancy> undoubted quickly a couple on few gist new could best links
13:59	technomancy	kibit would be a cool nrepl-discover op if it didn't have bad opinions about when
13:59	TimMc	^ based on the last page of IRC
14:00	seangrove	technomancy: Please ban jaiiii for spam...
14:00	justin_smith	technomancy: what does kibit think of when?
14:00	technomancy	seangrove: huh?
14:00	seangrove	technomancy: Just getting private spam msgs :P
14:00	technomancy	justin_smith: it thinks single-branch ifs are wrong and should be when instead
14:01	muhoo	kibit bitchd at me for (if (do and suggested when, FYI
14:01	justin_smith	that's true!
14:01	justin_smith	that is exactly what when is for
14:01	bitemyapp	seangrove: I commented.
14:01	bitemyapp	seangrove: if people ask me questions, I'll answer them.
14:01	technomancy	justin_smith: http://p.hagelb.org/lies.gif
14:01	muhoo	yeah, but when i wrote the code, i intended there to be an else :-P
14:01	justin_smith	OK, then what is when for?
14:01	TimMc	"laziness bugs got attentacles"
14:02	muhoo	,(doc when)
14:02	clojurebot	"([test & body]); Evaluates test. If logical true, evaluates body in an implicit do."
14:02	technomancy	justin_smith: side-effecting conditionals
14:02	justin_smith	???
14:02	lazybot	justin_smith: Yes, 100% for sure.
14:02	justin_smith	the mind boggles
14:02	llasram	Even lazybot agrees
14:02	technomancy	lazybot: botsnack
14:02	lazybot	technomancy: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
14:02	technomancy	justin_smith: so you think it's a design bug that if is variadic?
14:02	justin_smith	no
14:02	justin_smith	but I think one branch if is better as when
14:03	justin_smith	it's more explicit
14:03	technomancy	it's definitely more explicit
14:03	bitemyapp	seangrove: I don't actually know what aspect of ops with Datomic was unpleasant for you.
14:03	technomancy	it tells the reader: side effects here; watch out. implicit do.
14:03	bitemyapp	to my mind, the migration story is considerably more painful and that's why I'm working on that toolkit.
14:04	muhoo	so far the only thing kibit complained about other than the single-armed if, is pos? instead of (< 0). i consider that a win.
14:04	TimMc	technomancy: So you disagree with using the output of a when as a return value?
14:04	bitemyapp	seangrove: also datomic pro starter isn't redistributable, so DAAS is still a no-go.
14:04	bitemyapp	muhoo: that's pretty good.
14:05	technomancy	muhoo: wait it complained about pos?
14:05	technomancy	TimMc: yes
14:05	bitemyapp	kibit needs a fix sounds like?
14:05	muhoo	it complained about (< 0), suggested pos?
14:05	seangrove	bitemyapp: That's not distribution though, is it?
14:05	bitemyapp	ohhhh
14:05	technomancy	muhoo: oh, ok
14:05	bitemyapp	seangrove: it's a bit of a dodge to claim otherwise.
14:05	bitemyapp	seangrove: I already have a number of people that hate me, I don't want to add Rich Hickey to that list.
14:05	TimMc	technomancy: You'd prefer (if foo (+ foo 5) nil) then?
14:05	seangrove	bitemyapp: Well, gpl vs agpl I suppose
14:06	technomancy	TimMc: no, that's silly. nil is unnecessary
14:06	justin_smith	technomancy: the way I have always used when is to distinguish "action or nothing" from "action or alternative" - I have never connected it to side-effecting
14:06	TimMc	Harrumph.
14:06	justin_smith	but I can totally see how it could be seen that way
14:06	technomancy	justin_smith: that's a common mistake
14:07	technomancy	you don't need a whole new top-level macro to distinguish something as trivial as 1 vs 2 branches when you already have if
14:07	muhoo	[(pos? ?foo)] looks weird tho in a query
14:07	TimMc	We should have a 3-armed if.
14:07	justin_smith	I don't like single armed ifs because I waste precious seconds trying to verify there really isn't a second condition
14:07	technomancy	even elispers (who are notoriously sloppy about imperative code) use when for side-effects
14:07	bitemyapp	TimMc: k-armed bandit.
14:07	TimMc	(if foo (println "true") (println "false") (println "I reject the boolean binary system"))
14:08	muhoo	TimMc: (defn vishnu [& arms]...)
14:08	technomancy	anyway, I'm not going to use kibit till it fixes that
14:08	justin_smith	TimMc: clearly the last would be if foo = FileNotFound
14:08	TimMc	:-)
14:11	bitemyapp	muhoo: kibit just cleaned up my code a fair bit.
14:11	bitemyapp	muhoo: it complained about Halloway's code too, hahahaha
14:11	muhoo	ooh, it also caught a (when (not ..)) . nice little lint, that is.
14:12	muhoo	my yak is completely bald now
14:12	justin_smith	yaks grow new hair very fast
14:12	justin_smith	and don't think you can't shave a bald yak
14:13	muhoo	(defproject yak-nair "0.1.0" ..)
14:13	patchwork	technomancy: Is there overhead in the implicit do for 'when?
14:13	patchwork	Why should it be avoided?
14:13	technomancy	patchwork: it's all about communicating intent
14:14	muhoo	my god you gys are still OCD'ing the when
14:14	patchwork	muhoo: I brought it up again
14:14	justin_smith	INTENT IS VERY IMPORTANT MUHOO
14:14	technomancy	muhoo: I'm just bitter because I want a linter that doesn't give me bad advice
14:14	muhoo	patchwork: naughty
14:14	muhoo	we could go on about juxt for a while
14:14	muhoo	~juxt
14:14	stuartsierra1	"implicit do" has no overhead, for what it's worth.
14:14	clojurebot	juxt is the bestest option though if it doesn't weird you out
14:15	technomancy	juxt is completely uncontroversial in its splendour
14:15	bitemyapp	seangrove: nobody's asked any questions :P
14:15	justin_smith	juxt for president
14:15	stuartsierra1	(WTF is up with my router dropping connections?)
14:15	technomancy	juxt has a plan for the economy
14:15	justin_smith	juxt for industry
14:15	justin_smith	juxt for the dead
14:15	technomancy	(well, it has N plans, and it's going to apply them all)
14:15	muhoo	juxt for the hell of it!
14:16	stuartsierra1	With liberty and juxt for all.
14:16	muhoo	juxt for shits and giggles
14:16	yazirian	when is not simple. when complects branching and do!
14:16	mattmoss	juxt do it?
14:16	cark	dnolen : looks like there's some kind of regression with clojurescript 2024
14:16	technomancy	yazirian: cond for secretary of state!
14:16	bitemyapp	cark: https://github.com/cark/data.lenses == you?
14:16	cark	dnolen : compiler loops when compiling an alts! form from core.async
14:17	cark	bitemyapp: yes
14:17	yazirian	technomancy: need more wood behind fewer ->'s
14:17	bitemyapp	cark: much love <3
14:17	cark	bitemyapp: didn't know anyone was using it =) glad to have 1 (one) user !
14:17	llasram	clojurebot: juxt is completely uncontroversial in its splendour
14:17	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
14:17	bitemyapp	~juxt
14:17	clojurebot	juxt is usually the right answer
14:18	cark	dnolen: i have a minimal example https://gist.github.com/anonymous/7376057
14:18	bitemyapp	clojurebot: juxt in Haskell is sequence, and is equally magical.
14:18	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
14:19	justin_smith	hmm, what about using and instead of a when that is not about side effects
14:20	technomancy	justin_smith: using or/and for side-effecty things is super sketchy
14:20	technomancy	for exactly the same reason in the other direction
14:20	justin_smith	no when it ISN'T about side effects
14:21	justin_smith	when for the side effect thigs, and for the non-side-effect
14:21	technomancy	sure, I mean the choice to use or/and means it's about return value; it's gross to do otherwise
14:21	Apage43	If I use or for side effects is usually (or thing-i-wanted (log "THING BROKE SRY"))
14:21	llasram	Some of these statements have a "when's on first" vibe going on
14:21	justin_smith	OK, just trying to be sure I have a more clear idiom for what I used to use "when" for
14:21	justin_smith	llasram: definitely
14:22	dnolen	cark: looking into it
14:22	technomancy	llasram: "c.c/when" helps
14:22	cark	dnolen: thanks !
14:23	stuartsierra1	`when` is (if condition (do body)) 'nuff said
14:23	bitemyapp	guys. Doesn't merit this much omphalophilia.
14:23	patchwork	RIP when-for-single-armed-ifs : (
14:23	llasram	When Wen went "when," "when"'s "do" didn't do what When wanted his "do" to do
14:23	technomancy	buffalo?
14:24	llasram	A much more versatile word
14:24	TimMc	navel-gazing, I think
14:24	devn	^
14:24	technomancy	bitemyapp: I'm allowed to; it says so on my twitter profile =P
14:24	devn	"Mommy, how do I be perfect all the time?"
14:24	patchwork	Better than omphalophobia, so much unnecessary suffering
14:25	TimMc	Relatedly, how do folks handle the situation of logging conditions that are checked in an if or when? Here's something moderately gross: https://gist.github.com/timmc/7376199
14:25	TimMc	It's annoying to split stuff out into a containing let.
14:26	bitemyapp	TimMc: bindings + AOP
14:26	bitemyapp	if you want maximum evil.
14:27	bitemyapp	Which I optimize for.
14:27	devn	heh
14:27	technomancy	TimMc: doto+prn \m/
14:27	justin_smith	not to be confused with doto pr0n
14:28	stuartsierra1	TimMc: `spy` ?
14:28	TimMc	Not for debugging, for production logging.
14:28	TimMc	"I took this branch because..."
14:29	bitemyapp	TimMc: just need a if-logged
14:29	bitemyapp	an if-logged*
14:29	llasram	Which parses apart boolean expressions in the conditional?
14:29	bitemyapp	TimMc: so that instead of the check macro, you pass three forms at the top
14:29	gfredericks	are there any good examples of libs using metadata for not-compiler-stuff?
14:30	technomancy	gfredericks: nrepl-discover!
14:30	bitemyapp	expr, true-log-message, false-log-message
14:30	bitemyapp	then true-branch, false-branch.
14:30	technomancy	gfredericks: robert-hooke too
14:30	gfredericks	technomancy: let me back up; metadata on values, not vars/other-references
14:30	technomancy	gfredericks: leiningen test selectors
14:30	technomancy	oh =(
14:30	llasram	gfredericks: I use metadata in abracad to annotate data structures with additional Avro-specific information
14:30	technomancy	who does that
14:30	TimMc	bitemyapp: In this case there are multiple reason for false.
14:30	technomancy	gfredericks: lein profile merges
14:30	gfredericks	technomancy: I did it in this haystack lib
14:30	gfredericks	technomancy: oh nice
14:31	TimMc	Oh, maybe this is a case for 3-armed if. :-P
14:31	bitemyapp	llasram: you have the most serious-sounding last name I have ever heard.
14:31	llasram	haha
14:31	bitemyapp	TimMc: oh, okay.
14:31	llasram	bitemyapp: Yeah, it may be a bit much. My wife and I are considering alternatives :-)
14:31	gfredericks	wat what is it? lasram?
14:31	gfredericks	laser-arm?
14:31	TimMc	Bockrath-Vandegrift
14:31	gfredericks	LL Cool. Asram?
14:31	llasram	gfredericks: Since marriage+hyphenation, yeah
14:32	technomancy	Vandebrock sounds cool
14:32	bitemyapp	llasram: oh, one of those is your wife's name?
14:32	gfredericks	llasram: marriage+hyphenation is maybe the worst last name I've heard all day
14:32	llasram	haha
14:32	llasram	bitemyapp: Yah
14:32	hlship	I spend my life a hotels, etc., explaining that "Lewis" is not my middle name, it's the first word in my last name.
14:33	TimMc	llasram: Alternatives for a baby name?
14:33	justin_smith	you'd think that now that now that we can have spaces in file / directory names this would extend simply to surnames
14:34	hlship	I remember an agument w.r.t. name validation with a client years ago. Said spaces were not allow; I grabbed my friend, Todd Van Hoosier, from the next cube as a counterpoint.
14:34	TimMc	Or just a name change for yourselves?
14:34	llasram	TimMc: Alternatives for something else to change our last name to. We were lazy and never made the name-change legal, so there's still time to decide to do something else
14:35	llasram	But yeah, Vanderbock, or Bockvand are in the running
14:35	technomancy	http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/ <3
14:35	bitemyapp	hlship: this is why when I make a form for names, it's a single unvalidated string field.
14:35	bitemyapp	just... Name:
14:35	llasram	I liked the one about the people with the last name "Test"
14:35	bitemyapp	that's it. I'm not going to try to structure it because it's fucking impossible.
14:36	justin_smith	validation for anything humans attach significance to outside software is just silly
14:36	justin_smith	*structural validation
14:36	TimMc	bitemyapp: "How should your name be displayed on our site? ___ How should we address you? ___"
14:36	justin_smith	you can of course check that two things are equal, whatever
14:36	technomancy	"What do you mean we can't name our son after the empty string? it's our favourite data structure!"
14:36	bitemyapp	TimMc: username and name, right thur.
14:36	justin_smith	lol
14:36	TimMc	Depends on the site, but yeah.
14:37	bitemyapp	technomancy: you see an empty string, Perl users see endless POSSIBILITIES
14:37	TimMc	technomancy: Naing my firstborn U+FEFF
14:37	TimMc	*Naming
14:37	bitemyapp	"" can mean anything you want to! Postmodern programming!
14:37	justin_smith	brb changing my name to #<Object java.lang.Object@243d81d5>
14:37	justin_smith
14:37	technomancy	bitemyapp: byte-order-mark hagelberg
14:37	hlship	bitmyapp: #37 is one of the primary reasons behind the Obamacare debacle, I suspect. The user facing web site is inconsiquential compared to the work to integrate all the dozens of differents systems and organizations involved.
14:37	bitemyapp	technomancy: I wonder how many times I've been reamed by an errant BOM
14:37	TimMc	You got BOMed.
14:37	dnolen	cark: oh, what cljsbuild are you using?
14:38	hlship	man, my typing is awful today
14:39	TimMc	bitemyapp: Did NLP for a year or so; BOM everywhere. :-/
14:39	cark	dnolen: it's 0.3.3 ...
14:39	jjido	TimMc: had an issue recently with a file starting with FEFF and containing FFFE
14:39	cark	dnolen: man i would hate to be bothering you for such silly problem
14:39	gfredericks	I have a babby in my lap right now; should I rename him before it's too much trouble?
14:39	dnolen	cark: yeah you definitely got to be on 1.0.0-alpha2, but there might still be problem, but please switch and try yourself as well
14:39	technomancy	gfredericks: at least perused the unicode multilingual plane before you do anything rash
14:39	TimMc	gfredericks: May I recommend something from the third listing from http://birdandmoon.com/naturenames.html ? :-D
14:39	llasram	gfredericks: Just rename the baby to one of the BOMs
14:39	technomancy	*peruse
14:40	cark	dnolen: i'll come back to you in a moment
14:40	justin_smith	gfredericks: I always say the future is ungooglable names - pick a name that is so search engine optimized that nobody will be able to find anything relevant in a search engine
14:40	bitemyapp	gfredericks: how's programming with a baby in your lap?
14:40	justin_smith	think ipad, brittany spears nude, download, local teens, that kind of thing
14:40	gfredericks	what is a BOM
14:40	bitemyapp	gfredericks: better or worse than programming with a cat?
14:40	bitemyapp	gfredericks: byte order mark
14:40	dnolen	cark: k I can confirm it's an issue even w/ latest cljsbuild
14:40	gfredericks	justin_smith: okay so maybe PRISM?
14:41	justin_smith	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte_order_mark
14:41	justin_smith	gfredericks: yeah, that is a good baby name
14:41	TimMc	justin_smith: Gender-ambiguous names are good too. That confuses gender-aware name-matchers.
14:41	technomancy	one weird trick fredericks
14:41	justin_smith	right
14:41	llasram	TimMc: My firstborn will now be named Hellbender, regardless of gender
14:41	TimMc	snrk
14:41	gfredericks	ooh what about naming with typos
14:41	justin_smith	free ipad smith
14:41	TimMc	Jhon Smith
14:41	gfredericks	I suppose that's hard to distinguish from stupid novelty spelings
14:42	bitemyapp	llasram: brilliant. I work with somebody named Alaric.
14:42	justin_smith	you could go with a meme that is guaranteed to be unkown and obscure in the future, but still full of irrelevant search results
14:42	justin_smith	shibe
14:42	cark	dnolen : indeed same problem with cljsbuild 1.0.0-alpha2, still works in 2014 and not in 2024
14:42	TimMc	A good first name would be "The", pronounced "tay".
14:42	bitemyapp	memes were a thing even in 1960: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/MAD-alfie-1960.jpg
14:43	gfredericks	TimMc: that has all the best attributes of names
14:45	dnolen	cark: I gotta run for a bit, it's very strange and I'm not sure it's not an issue w/ core.async, will probably need tbaldridge's help on this one
14:45	cark	dnolen: ok, thanks for your help
14:45	yazirian	It's pronounced as-WEE-pay!!
14:47	hlship	llasram: My friends were going to name their son "Rhys Danger Newman" but chickened out and now regret it (their parents discouraged them from "Danger is his middle name").
14:47	cark	dnolen: there is definitively something strange with require-macro and core.async, when i :refer alts! i get a warning, i have to refer alt! instead ...
14:48	bitemyapp	hlship: brilliant. What a lost opportunity.
14:48	dnolen	cark: alts! is not a macro
14:48	quile	hlship: I actually know someone who did give their child the middle name "Danger"
14:48	cark	dnolen: ah that would be why =)
14:48	technomancy	I have a friend who changed his last name to Danger
14:49	technomancy	he actually uses Clojure
14:49	quile	ha
14:49	dnolen	cark: and you must require it from core.async same for <! >!
14:49	gfredericks	technomancy: I choose to assume you're talking about Tim Dysinger and will now change how I refer to him
14:49	technomancy	gfredericks: not gonna stop you
14:50	gfredericks	Middlename Lastname Firstname
14:50	gfredericks	trying to figure out the best name to instigate "Who's on first"-like conversations
14:50	dnolen	cark: core.async definitely needs to be updated for 2024 anyhow, it relies on some details that have changes around ns aliases and other things
14:51	dnolen	cark: so you'll have to wait anyhow
14:51	cark	dnolen: righht, i fixed minimal example, and still does not work. No problem about waiting, was only giving a test run to latest clojurescript
14:51	patchwork	gfredericks: Just name him when
14:53	jemendja	hello
14:54	TimMc	gfredericks: Mymiddlename ...
14:55	gfredericks	"What's ___ ___"
14:55	dnolen	cemerick: hrm, did you handle the require-macros alias case in your patch?
14:55	gfredericks	maybe "What's Your Name"
14:56	gfredericks	then when somebody asks you the question you can decide whether to respond with "Yes?" or "Yes it is."
14:56	cemerick	dnolen: AFAIK, yes. I believe there was either a test case for that, or I added one. Been using :require-macros :as with good results since?
14:56	dnolen	cemerick: seems busted for me if I alias and do ::m/foo
14:58	cemerick	dnolen: oh, for keyword resolution. Hrm, I might be able to believe that. This is in a REPL, or in general?
14:58	dnolen	cemerick: doesn't work in a source file
14:58	TimMc	gfredericks: My First Name Has Three Words
14:58	cemerick	dnolen: file a ticket, assign it to me, I look into it this weekend
15:00	TimMc	"What's your name?" "My First Name Has Three Words" "Well, what are they?" "My First Name" "Yes, that's what I'm asking..."
15:00	dnolen	cemerick: done
15:02	cemerick	dnolen: thanks; I have something else for your consideration
15:03	cemerick	dnolen: right now, ^:export on a definition of a scalar (e.g. `(def ^:export some-value 42)`) doesn't really work; GClosure advanced inlines the value in functions that reference the def, so any external set!'s on that property are effectively no-ops. I have a working patch.
15:04	cemerick	This seems like a worthwhile fix/enhancement, but I know you have certain optimization objectives that it _might_ conflict with...
15:05	dnolen	cemerick: seems to that is GClosure bug
15:05	dnolen	seems to me
15:05	cemerick	dnolen: I thought it was too, but ^:export currently isn't doing a couple of things it should be. Hashed it out on SO with a GClosure contrib.
15:06	cemerick	My patch currently only makes changes to how non-defn symbols are exported, but we may want to apply the same thing to those as well.
15:07	cemerick	e.g., the same problem would occur with a fn that returns an exported fn; the former will always return the same fn, even if the latter's property is set!'d
15:07	dnolen	cemerick: seems like a fine enhancement, we're not going to ^:export anything in core.cljs anyhow
15:07	cemerick	dnolen: OK, I'll put up a draft patch, add tests once you OK the general approach
15:26	Raynes	ibdknox: ping
15:28	danielszmulewicz	technomancy: ping
15:31	jjido	what is GClosure?
15:32	Raynes	Google Closure
15:32	Raynes	$google google closure
15:32	lazybot	[Closure Tools — Google Developers] https://developers.google.com/closure/
15:35	jjido	is it Javascript?
15:37	mikerod	from the REPL can you get a defrecord/deftype/defprotocol to be written to a .class file?
15:37	mikerod	- so that you could view it
15:39	gfredericks	Raynes: did you just tell some clojure code to search google for something called "google closure"?
15:45	danielszmulewicz	`lein uberjar`complains about not finding a dependency only present in the dev profile. I thought `lein uberjar`was excluding dev profile. What gives?
15:51	cmiles74	I wonder if the issue is that it's compiling, which requires the dependencies from the "dev" profile.
15:53	xeqi	danielszmulewicz: so its complaining about not finding a dependency you don't expect to be there?
15:54	danielszmulewicz	xeqi: Yes, I don't expect `lein uberjar`to complain about a development time dependency.
15:54	danielszmulewicz	xeqi: I must be doing something stupid, though.
15:55	danielszmulewicz	xeqi: I'm always confused with lein profiles
15:56	danielszmulewicz	xeqi: Could not locate clojure/tools/namespace/repl__init.class or clojure/tools/namespace/repl.clj on classpath
15:56	cmiles74	danielszmulewicz: perhaps you accidentally referenced a development time dependency in your code somewhere. Thus at compile time it's reaching out for those functions.
15:57	danielszmulewicz	xeqi: Yes, might be. I'll check again.
15:59	danielszmulewicz	cmiles74: Oops, sorry. Should have replied to you.
16:00	cmiles74	danielszmulewicz: :-P
16:00	danielszmulewicz	cmiles74: No. Definitely no reference whatsoever. However, `lein clean` fixed the problem.
16:00	`cbp	bitemyapp: bja never contacted you again? If not and you're busy that's ok. I'll take a stab at it this weekend. Move all the connection stuff inside the agent and some error handling for that right?
16:00	danielszmulewicz	That is not good.
16:00	justin_smith	danielszmulewicz: I have been seeing more and more of those
16:01	justin_smith	to the point that I make a ritual of lein clean now
16:01	danielszmulewicz	justin_smith: Sad.
16:01	justin_smith	yeah
16:02	technomancy	danielszmulewicz: that's why I added profile-level isolation to lein
16:03	technomancy	so dev-time AOT can't affect deploys
16:03	danielszmulewicz	technomancy: That's excellent news. So I should upgrade to what?
16:03	technomancy	unfortunately it was too invasive for a point-release, so it defaults to being off, but you can (and should) enable it with :target-path "target/%s" in your user profile
16:05	danielszmulewicz	OK then. And it's available in Leiningen 2?
16:05	technomancy	yeah
16:07	danielszmulewicz	technomancy: :target-path "target/%s" Is this slash percent s? What is the meaning?
16:08	technomancy	danielszmulewicz: :target-path gets the current profile set spliced in with format
16:08	technomancy	so when the uberjar profile is active, the target-path will be different from your regular dev target-path
16:08	technomancy	that way it's impossible to have dev-time classes affect uberjars
16:09	danielszmulewicz	OK, and to confirm: that goes to system-wide user profile (~/.lein/profiles.clj), yes?
16:10	technomancy	right, unless you want to make extra sure everyone on the project is also isolating their own hacking too
16:11	danielszmulewicz	then you would put it in project.clj?
16:12	danielszmulewicz	in that second case, I mean
16:12	technomancy	yeah
16:14	danielszmulewicz	technomancy: thanks a lot. I feel bad for complaining, you're so helpful. Leiningen feels sometimes like black magic.
16:15	technomancy	any time AOT is involved, things get yucky
16:15	danielszmulewicz	technomancy: I suppose.
16:15	danielszmulewicz	technomancy: tough nut to crack.
16:16	technomancy	I actually included that profile isolation change in a release, but it broke existing workflows that hard-coded target-path =(
16:16	technomancy	so it had to be rolled back
16:18	llasram	guilty
16:18	llasram	What do you recommend for not hard-coding the target path?
16:18	technomancy	llasram: look in the project map if possible
16:18	llasram	Hmm
16:19	llasram	Unfortunately the part of the meta-build which needs to find the uberjar is written in Ruby
16:20	llasram	But -- `lein pprint` maybe?
16:20	technomancy	yeah, that would work
16:21	technomancy	I think the output of uberjar also includes the path written to?
16:21	technomancy	yeah, best to use that
16:22	llasram	It does, but that's problematic for me, actually
16:23	llasram	Oh, but maybe has the same problems as running `lein pprint`
16:24	llasram	Yep
16:25	llasram	I'm building .debs using `fpm` under `fakeroot`. But I can't run `lein` under `fakeroot`. In my meta-build, the uberjar and the .deb building steps are separate `rake` tasks which actually end up running in separate processes
16:26	llasram	I guess I can stash the path from `lein uberjar` or `lein pprint` in an environment variable or something
16:33	bitemyapp	Any suggestions for how I could clean up this mess of a let body and cond? https://www.refheap.com/20613
16:33	bitemyapp	I'm not really happy with that.
16:34	je	I have a project containing both clj and cljs using newest cljs version (0.0-2014). My project depends on a lib, depending on clj-http, depending tools.reader 0.7.7. This makes cljsbuild fail with "Unable to resolve var: reader/alias-map in this context" even though the cljs part doesn't use this lib.
16:34	je	I can come around this issue by patching clj-http 0.7.8-SNAPSHOT with tools.reader 0.7.10 and but it in my local maven repo, but is there a better other way?
16:35	dakrone	je: tools.reader is an optional dep for clj-http, you can exclude it
16:35	technomancy	boy, sure would be cool if you could read safely without an external dependency
16:35	technomancy	=\
16:36	rrc	is there any more elegant way to handle this reduction which requires threding the accumulator? I really want to comp the two fns, but they take two args while returning only the accum http://git.io/zdO_OA
16:37	dakrone	technomancy: it certainly would, wouldn't it...
16:37	dakrone	:P
16:38	dakrone	:)
16:38	justin_smith	bitemyapp: that may or may not be clearer if you named the (and ...) values that cond is checking in the let
16:39	justin_smith	depends if those and conditions actually describe things with reasonable names I guess
16:39	rlb	If I want to autogenerate a bunch of sexps but don't want any symbol qualification, is there any better approach than just liberal use of ~'foo?
16:41	llasram	rlb: Auto-gensyms via e.g. foo# aren't an option?
16:41	justin_smith	(and many? map? (not coll?)) = map-into-many; (and many (not map?) coll?) = sequential-into-many
16:41	justin_smith	etc.
16:42	rlb	llasram: I want to generate, say (let [foo ...] (case ...)) for output to a file, with no namespace qualifications.
16:42	rlb	i.e. I don't want cloljure.core/let, etc.
16:42	rlb	clojure.core/let
16:43	llasram	I think bbloom's backtick will let you do what you want: https://github.com/brandonbloom/backtick
16:43	rlb	but I'd also prefer not to have to have (~'let [...] (~'case ...
16:43	rlb	llasram: ok, thanks -- I'll take a look.
16:45	TimMc	bitemyapp: core.match on [many? map? coll? one?] with values like [true true false _] :-P
16:45	bitemyapp	justin_smith: sorta.
16:46	bitemyapp	TimMc: it really does beg pattern matching doesn't it?
16:46	TimMc	Almost.
16:46	je	dakrone: thanks it worked, I didn't know of :exclusions ... now I do :D
16:46	bitemyapp	I think it's a pretty clear case where pattern matching would be a boon.
16:46	TimMc	Or heck, maybe it does.
16:47	bitemyapp	the first (and many? map? (not coll?)) would turn into (given: [many? map? coll? one?]) - [true true false _]
16:47	TimMc	My suggestion started off as somethign awful where you would assign either a prime or 1 to each conditional and multiply them together, then dispatch on the product.
16:47	llasram	...
16:47	bitemyapp	[true false true _] [false false _ true] [false true _ false]
16:47	TimMc	...but not all conditions were used in each clause, so it actually evolved into something useful-ish.
16:47	justin_smith	TimMc: assign powers of two and dispatch on the sum
16:47	bitemyapp	jesus christ lol
16:47	dakrone	je: cool :)
16:48	TimMc	justin_smith: That's no better, right?
16:48	justin_smith	heh, at least with that one you can bit mask if you don't care about one of the conditions
16:48	TimMc	Oh wait, it would actually work...
16:49	bitemyapp	I'm using core.match, not the loony bitmasking solution :P
16:49	justin_smith	classic old school C programming
16:49	bitemyapp	but clever!
16:49	TimMc	Just give coll? and one? the same prime, since many? is always true for one and false for the other.
16:49	llasram	bitmasks are the best
16:49	danielszmulewicz	In my project, I have a java source file that I compile with `lein compile`and when I run my app with `lein run` or at the repl all is fine. Now I'm trying to do `lein uberjar` and it gives a java.lang.ClassNotFoundException when compiling the clj source file that references the java classes. How can I solve this?
16:50	TimMc	:-D :-D :-D
16:50	justin_smith	"I'm code from the '80s"
16:50	deech	Hi all, I'm using core.match and I'm having an issue where code that compiles (and loads) fine when I do `lein repl ...` fails to compile with a `lein compile`.
16:50	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Probably not the problem, but FYI Java compiles via the `lein javac` task, not `lein compile`
16:51	deech	Could this be core.match related or should I look elsewhere?
16:51	danielszmulewicz	OK, thanks. Will try this too.
16:51	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Which version of Leiningen?
16:51	danielszmulewicz	llasram: 2.3.2
16:52	llasram	Are you explicitly setting :prep-tasks ?
16:52	TimMc	justin_smith: I think this would work: https://www.refheap.com/20615
16:52	TimMc	You do have to do masking, still.
16:52	danielszmulewicz	llasram: No. I should, right?
16:53	TimMc	...in which case there's no purpose in using 5 for both coll? and one?, but whatever.
16:53	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Not unless you have something special. But if you were, and hadn't included `javac`, then you might get the error you're seeing
16:53	bitemyapp	wasn't there a Clojure library that randomly fucked with your code to verify test coverage?
16:53	danielszmulewicz	I'll try this :prep-tasks ["compile" "javac"]
16:54	bitemyapp	does anybody remember the name of that library?
16:54	TimMc	There's heckle in Ruby...
16:54	llasram	danielszmulewicz: I would actually counter-suggest that :-)
16:54	TimMc	That might get you closer in a search.
16:54	bbloom	rlb: the "template" macro (or template-fn function) in backtick is exactly what you want
16:54	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Do try `lein with-profile +uberjar pprint` and check :prep-tasks
16:55	bitemyapp	sadly "heckle Ruby clojure" didn't get me very far.
16:55	TimMc	bitemyapp: Alo, I feel there's an opportunity in your previous question to use a Karnaugh map macro.
16:55	bbloom	dnolen: in theory, clojurescript macros could use backtick to resolve symbols against the namespaces var ... i might implement that
16:57	TimMc	bitemyapp: Previous #clojure discussion: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2012-01-29.html#11:02
16:57	dnolen	bbloom: hm, backtick is pretty small, wouldn't want to add a dependency but if you wanted to just get that code in ClojureScript sure
16:57	bbloom	dnolen: oh i wasn't proposing adding a dependency
16:57	bitemyapp	TimMc: I asked because I just did that (sabotaged the code to test the code breaks)
16:57	bbloom	dnolen: and the reader technically already does this
16:57	TimMc	...and that points further back in the logs...
16:58	bbloom	in theory, i could tweak tools.reader & expose it the same was as backtick
16:58	dnolen	bbloom: yeah was gonna say, perhaps we can get this into tools.reader
16:58	danielszmulewicz	llasram: Why counter-recommend? Your initial hint did the trick. I Included :prep-task in the uberjar profile and now it works. The java source file was compiled before the clj source files, and I got my standalone jar wich launches fine. Kudos to you.
16:58	TimMc	Apparently abedra is the person to heckle to get a clojur eheckle tool.
16:59	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Oh, because the defaults should work just fine. Since they aren't, something else is going on. If you're happy where you are, I'll leave you to it though :-)
17:01	TimMc	("Saboteur" or similar was the right keyword.)
17:03	TimMc	`cbp: ^ You should write a Clojure version of Ruby's Heckle, a sabotage-based code coverage tool. Algorithmic, teaches you about Clojure, useful to others.
17:04	TimMc	There's your project.
17:04	`cbp	hi TimMc ok
17:05	TimMc	clojurebot: A good project is a heckle clone for clojure (sabotage-based test-testing tool)
17:05	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
17:06	TimMc	I'm going to start storing project ideas in clojurebot.
17:06	`cbp	clojurebot: what is a good project?
17:06	clojurebot	No entiendo
17:08	danielszmulewicz	llasram: You are probably correct. But again, I hardly understand how to drive leiningen in a scenario with both java and clojure source files.
17:10	llasram	danielszmulewicz: It should mostly Just Work (tm). You need to set :java-source-paths, but that should be it
17:10	llasram	(well, and :source-paths, if you want java and clojure as subdirs under `src`, but you get the idea)
17:11	TimMc	clojurebot: a good project?
17:11	clojurebot	Huh?
17:11	TimMc	clojurebot: a good project
17:11	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
17:11	TimMc	:-(
17:11	`cbp	nice
17:11	swarthy	danielszmulewicz: I just did that for the first time yesterday, use a java lib in clojure. https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/doc/MIXED_PROJECTS.md helped me get it
17:11	TimMc	clojurebot: A good project
17:11	clojurebot	A good project is a heckle clone for clojure (sabotage-based test-testing tool)
17:11	TimMc	Aww, don't tell me it's case-sensitive...
17:13	danielszmulewicz	llasram: yes, java-source-paths was set. It's fixed now. And I don't know what the problem was. Yuck feeling.
17:13	danielszmulewicz	swarthy: Thanks, that's what I should have read in the first place.
17:14	swarthy	danielszmulewicz: np, its not as complicated as it seems at first. Getting the directories right is the hard part, then it's easy.
17:15	danielszmulewicz	swarthy: Anything else besides keeping the directories separate, and properly referenced inj :java-source-paths and :source-paths?
17:16	seangrove	bbloom: Quite a bit of patience you showed on the hn thread
17:16	bbloom	seangrove: which one?
17:16	seangrove	bbloom: Any chance you'll end up the new Cognitect dev relations?
17:16	bbloom	heh, unlikely
17:16	seangrove	bbloom: Datomic Starter Pro
17:17	bbloom	i just want more people to build systems w/ rich's ideas in them :-)
17:18	seangrove	bbloom: Ah, sorry, dev. evangelist, obviously ;)
17:19	bbloom	if anybody wants to write me a check for schooling fools on the internet, i'll happily cash it
17:19	justin_smith	danielszmulewicz: your IRC client sends occasional control characters
17:20	seangrove	Well, thought it was nice of your to explain things the way you did
17:20	justin_smith	like and (they show up as ^\ and ^H in my client)
17:20	danielszmulewicz	justin_smith: Oh, really? I'm using Colloquy. What are you using?
17:20	justin_smith	erc / emacs
17:20	TimMc	I see it in irssi.
17:20	danielszmulewicz	justin_smith: Maybe I should too.
17:20	justin_smith	I saw: "justin_smith: Oh, really? I'm using Colloquy. What are you using?"
17:20	justin_smith	err, maybe you don't see the control char when I send it either
17:21	danielszmulewicz	justin_smith: No, I don't see it.
17:21	justin_smith	I saw: "justin_smith: Oh, really? I'm usi^\ng Colloquy. What are you using?"
17:21	justin_smith	just odd, I don't know
17:21	danielszmulewicz	Now I see.
17:21	justin_smith	I replaced the control char with the way emacs displays it, but as ascii
17:21	danielszmulewicz	Is it only me?
17:21	justin_smith	yup
17:22	danielszmulewicz	wow
17:22	llasram	Well, and justin_smith
17:22	justin_smith	when I do it intentionally :)
17:22	llasram	Yes :-)
17:22	danielszmulewicz	llasram: :-)
17:22	TimMc	Hmm, what's the correspondence between the displayed ^H and the actual code?
17:22	danielszmulewicz	so ERC is the recommended irc mode for Emacs, are there contenders I should examine?
17:23	seangrove	danielszmulewicz: irssi, of course
17:23	mtp	rcirc, circe
17:23	TimMc	Oh right, ^H is ASCII 0x08...
17:24	danielszmulewicz	I can't believe it's a level playing field. Surely there must be some understanding of which is the superior one? (snark)
17:24	justin_smith	TimMc: emacs says (when I investigate it) " character: C-h (displayed as C-h) (codepoint 8, #o10, #x8)"
17:24	justin_smith	good old m-x describe-char
17:25	seangrove	justin_smith: Also like M-x what-face
17:25	danielszmulewicz	Who recommended circe? Last update is 8 years ago.
17:25	seangrove	Different purpose, but found it pretty useful recently for fixing unreadable text that I've put up with for the past four years
17:26	TimMc	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caret_notation
17:26	`cbp	Well that wouldve definitely come in handy back when i was modding color themes
17:26	justin_smith	seangrove: describe-face?
17:27	seangrove	justin_smith: Also good, but ultimately I just use it with M-x customize-face
17:27	seangrove	I suppose describe-face has a link right there though, nice.
17:28	TimMc	^\ is apparently Field Separator
17:29	llasram	argh, JVM's lack of unsigned integers
17:34	TimMc	They're called chars. :-P
17:35	llasram	haha
17:35	llasram	Unfortunately not applicable to my immediate situation
17:35	TimMc	unsigned shorts
17:36	bbloom	aren't JVM chars 16 bits?
17:36	llasram	Oh man. I hope someone got K&R to put their signatures on a pair of short pants. Then that person could wear around their K&R signed shorts
17:37	dnolen	cark: figured out what was going on cutting a new CLJS release that will work with core.async now
17:38	TimMc	bbloom: Yes?
17:38	bbloom	er dir, you said short, not byte
17:38	bbloom	ignore me
17:38	TimMc	Actually, I can't remember if you can do match on chars in Java.
17:39	justin_smith	,(+ \a \b) ; will be an error
17:39	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
17:40	TimMc	Looks like if you try to do math on chars, the Java compiler upcasts them implicitly to int.
17:41	deech`	Hi all, using core.match I'm having an issue where my project fails to
17:41	deech`	build (with an IndexOutOfBounds Exception) on the first compile but
17:41	deech`	compiles and works on the second.
17:41	deech`
17:41	deech	Crap.
17:41	deech`	Sorry.
17:41	TimMc	...but you can totally do ++ on a char
17:42	TimMc	https://www.refheap.com/20617
17:42	Morgawr	mmm
17:42	Morgawr	,(every? false? '())
17:42	clojurebot	true
17:42	Morgawr	,(every? true? '())
17:42	clojurebot	true
17:42	Morgawr	is this a bug or intended or...?
17:43	TimMc	Intended.
17:43	Morgawr	what's the rationale behind this?
17:43	deech	Let me try again. I'm having an issue where some core.match code fails to compile with an IndexOutOfBounds Exception on the first pass but passes on the second and works fine. Has anyone seen this before?
17:43	TimMc	Morgawr: Can you find a value for which the predicate fails?
17:43	deech	Apologies for the noise before.
17:43	justin_smith	,(every? even? []) ; Morgawr
17:43	clojurebot	true
17:44	Morgawr	TimMc: by docs "Returns true if (pred x) is logical true for every x in coll, else false." 'pred' is not true for every x because there is no x, I'd say it's ambiguous wording (I get what you're saying though)
17:44	justin_smith	Morgawr: it is the base case of a recursive function, when handed an empty sequence
17:44	Morgawr	justin_smith: that makes sense
17:44	Morgawr	how would I elegantly handle the case where the sequence might be empty?
17:44	TimMc	Morgawr: The predicate is "vacuously satisfied". "For every" is misleading.
17:44	Morgawr	TimMc: true
17:45	Morgawr	I just spent 2 hours trying to understand why my code was failing and this was the reason, very frustrating D:
17:45	justin_smith	(and x (every? pred? x))
17:45	justin_smith	(and (seq x) (every? pred? x))
17:45	justin_smith	that is the semantics you want I think
17:45	Morgawr	justin_smith: alright, thanks
17:46	TimMc	Morgawr: In first-order logic, "For all X, Y is true" is equivalent to "There does not exist an X such that Y is false"
17:46	Morgawr	TimMc: I hear ya
17:47	Morgawr	I mean, I understand what you're saying and it makes perfect sense
17:47	Morgawr	just that the docs should probably mention this, it can be frustrating
17:48	hfaafb	http://i.imgur.com/782Kl7u.png
17:49	justin_smith	,(= Double/NaN Double/NaN)
17:49	clojurebot	false
17:49	TimMc	Morgawr: Base-cases, they're tricky.
17:49	Morgawr	TimMc: yup
17:52	justin_smith	,(= Double/NaN)
17:52	clojurebot	true
17:52	justin_smith	another weird base case
17:52	justin_smith	(since it is the value that is not = to itself)
17:53	TimMc	I don't know if I'd call that a base case.
17:53	justin_smith	(= x) for any x is true
17:53	justin_smith	because it is a base case
17:53	justin_smith	,(= Double/NaN Double/NaN)
17:53	clojurebot	false
17:53	justin_smith	,(= Double/NaN)
17:53	clojurebot	true
17:53	TimMc	Oh, missed the unary execution.
17:55	justin_smith	since = is always true for one arg, as the base case of the recursion
17:55	TimMc	I'm annoyed that (=) is an error.
17:55	TimMc	That should be the base case.
17:55	OscarZ	hi guys.. how u guys think Clojure is gaining up popularity ?
17:55	OscarZ	its a bit hard to judge
17:56	TimMc	E_BAD_PARSE
17:56	TimMc	Are you asking if you think it is, or how it is? :-)
17:57	TimMc	I keep hearing about it getting used in different places, and the channel has been growing, so those are evidence for growth.
17:57	OscarZ	maybe you have a good understanding of it as some of you have been on this channel for years.. i guess the activity on this channel is some kind of indicator
17:58	muhoo	wait for the clojure survey results to come in?
17:58	muhoo	http://cemerick.com/2013/11/05/2013-state-of-clojure-clojurescript-survey/
17:58	TimMc	673 nicks now; I think it was at 300-400 a couple years ago.
17:59	OscarZ	muhoo: thats exactly what i asked for :)
18:00	OscarZ	TimMc: I think thats good :)
18:00	Morgawr	clojure #1
18:01	OscarZ	would be interesting to hear from you guys of the good and bad things about Clojure.. whatever it was that you switched from
18:01	Morgawr	I switched from C haha, pretty big jump
18:01	OscarZ	most probably coming from Java, C#, python I'd imagine
18:01	OscarZ	maybe Ruby
18:02	TimMc	OscarZ: You should search for past years' surveys.
18:02	OscarZ	Morgawr: hehe i guess so
18:04	OscarZ	TimMc: I will surely check those out.. you dont have any personal experiences you'd like to share?
18:06	TimMc	Not in particular?
18:07	OscarZ	Thats ok.. reading up on the surveys.. interesting stuff..
18:08	bitemyapp	seangrove: there, questions are being answered.
18:09	bitemyapp	OscarZ: the only thing I don't like about Clojure is that the type system doesn't do much to help you out. The other 99% I'm happy with.
18:10	dnolen	ClojureScript 0.0-2030 going out, mostly to address core.async issues
18:11	tbaldridge	bitemyapp: are you really complaining that a dynamic language doesn't provide type safety?
18:12	justin_smith	gfredericks: fnu lnu http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/07/15/nyregion/unidentified-defendants-have-bedeviled-courts-for-decades.html
18:13	justin_smith	"At any given time there can be hundreds of Fnu Lnus in the court system."
18:13	seangrove	tbaldridge: Just sounded like he was mentioning a piece he misses
18:13	seangrove	bitemyapp: Nice answer by the way, liked it a lot.
18:13	lpvb	on https://github.com/daveray/seesaw
18:14	lpvb	it says replace version with the tag below
18:14	lpvb	I don't see a version number
18:14	OscarZ	bitemyapp: what kind of problem is it usually in practice? is it that there isnt as nice code completion features in IDE or just that its easy to use objects of the wrong type?
18:14	justin_smith	lpvb: the version number is in project.clj
18:14	justin_smith	which is on the top level of the project
18:15	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: the world is not enough.
18:15	bitemyapp	OscarZ: 80-90% of the errors I run into and have to spend time resolving could be caught by a proper type system.
18:15	bitemyapp	OscarZ: that's true of most languages though.
18:15	lpvb	justin_smith: "1.4.5-SNAPSHOT"
18:16	lpvb	do i use the whole string
18:16	justin_smith	lpvb: yeah
18:16	justin_smith	also, you can search clojars.org to see various versions available
18:17	justin_smith	https://clojars.org/seesaw
18:17	OscarZ	im not that familiar with language design.. but couldnt you have kind of optional type system.. you could enforce types on some functions?
18:17	tbaldridge	OscarZ: may I welcome you to #clojure, here you will meet bitemyapp a converted Haskell programmer who still pines the loss of his old love.
18:17	justin_smith	lpvb: that shows "1.4.4" being the most recent actually, that could be the newest actually built nad deployed
18:17	lpvb	justin_smith: clojars is where the dependencies come from?
18:17	technomancy	OscarZ: yes, you can. people are working on it, but it's still a work in progress.
18:18	justin_smith	lpvb: it is a repository that lein uses by default to find deps, yeah
18:18	justin_smith	but you can use others
18:18	OscarZ	tbaldridge: hehe.. im a long time Haskell lurker as well
18:18	OscarZ	from the other side of the static/dynamic language spectrum
18:18	technomancy	OscarZ: you can't have it as nice as HM on the JVM though
18:18	lpvb	how about that apache one that maven uses?
18:18	tbaldridge	OscarZ: and just to provided the opposite view. I've found that having to think about my program twice is quite annoying. Once to think about how to code it, once more to get it to fit a type system.
18:18	lpvb	does leiningen use that too
18:18	bitemyapp	OscarZ: I use Clojure and Haskell concurrently. It should be noted that I use Clojure, not Haskell, at work.
18:19	bitemyapp	OscarZ: and that I find Clojure very productive. So the truth is more subtle than tbaldridge likes to paint it.
18:19	lpvb	clojure is my python as Haskell is to C++
18:19	bitemyapp	I end up thinking about my Clojure code at a type level anyway. "Twice" is meaningless. I just want to know what makes sense, what works, what doesn't, and reduce my TTS and TTF
18:19	OscarZ	thats an interesting combination
18:19	tbaldridge	bitemyapp: hey, someone has to add hyperbole to this channel, might as well be me.
18:20	bitemyapp	TTS: time-to-solution - TTF: time-to-fix
18:20	Morgawr	mmm.. I have a set like #{:a :b :c} and a map like {:a function :b function :c function :d function} (etc etc), I want to take all the elements in the first set and apply them to a variable x iteratively (like ->) based on their function in the map
18:20	bitemyapp	a compiler that can say something useful about your code and prevent whole classes of errors can improve both of those numbers.
18:21	Morgawr	so in that case it would be (-> x ((:a map)) ((:b map)) ((:c map)) )
18:21	Morgawr	how do I do this elegantly?
18:21	justin_smith	Morgawr: (map (apply juxt (vals (select-keys function-map key-set))) args)
18:22	bitemyapp	GOD DAMMIT
18:22	tbaldridge	(inc justin_smith)
18:22	lazybot	⇒ 10
18:22	bitemyapp	justin_smith: I nearly had it.
18:22	tbaldridge	for use of juxt
18:22	Morgawr	(inc justin_smith)
18:22	lazybot	⇒ 11
18:22	Morgawr	that's pretty damn great
18:22	OscarZ	if you write a function in clojure.. i guess you almost always have a good understanding of what the input should be... why not some kind of "ad hoc" validation patterns that the compiler could catch ?
18:22	Morgawr	thanks
18:22	bitemyapp	justin_smith: is map what he wants? not reduce?
18:22	justin_smith	hmm
18:22	bitemyapp	OscarZ: well that kinda happens. There's core.typed and there are runtime schema validators.
18:22	Morgawr	yeah probably reduce
18:22	justin_smith	depends what he meant by iteratively
18:22	Morgawr	they build on top of each other
18:22	Morgawr	like ->
18:23	bitemyapp	I was writing the reduce version, and you took the wind out of my sails :(
18:23	Morgawr	but yeah, just with that idea you gave me good points to work on, thanks
18:23	justin_smith	OK, I was close
18:23	technomancy	OscarZ: you can, but it's nicer when computers can do grunt work for you
18:23	bitemyapp	technomancy: you might almost think that was the point of computers...
18:24	rasmusto	computers deserve a break sometimes
18:25	tbaldridge	OscarZ: if I write a function, and I know what it should be given, why should I have to fit it into the validation pattern of the compiler. Now if I want to change the function, I have to change the validation pattern as well.
18:26	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: have you written code in an ML or Haskell?
18:26	benkay	,ping
18:26	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ping in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:26	tbaldridge	bitemyapp: yes
18:26	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: you're painting this picture of whips and chains that just doesn't happen.
18:26	S11001001	ugh
18:26	benkay	i'll take it
18:27	tbaldridge	bitemyapp: I would be interested in a Haskell/ML variant with a sexpr syntax. That's actually one of the worst turnoffs of those languages for me.
18:29	bbloom	tbaldridge: have you tried Shen? It's kinda in the Haskell/ML family of semantics
18:29	bbloom	http://shenlanguage.org/
18:30	imok20	does anyone do simple, (cheap?) hosted datomic?
18:30	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: I'd be down for that too.
18:31	benkay	DaaS
18:32	jcrossley3	if i have a multi-arity function defined in a protocol, is it possible to define one arity in one map, and a different arity in another map, and then merge them somehow to pass to extend?
18:32	OscarZ	in those Clojure surveys theres exactly the same question I was after "What have been the biggest wins for you in using Clojure?"
18:32	OscarZ	interesting stuff
18:32	tbaldridge	imok20: you should probably read the Datomic Terms-of-Service (http://www.datomic.com/datomic-pro-edition-eula.html)
18:33	OscarZ	I think they should also add "minimalism, simplicity, reduction of cognitive load on irrelevant shit" as an option
18:34	imok20	tbaldridge: it looks as though it would allow for it, less the "cheap" request
18:34	benkay	all web-hosted EULAs should be hashed and have a link to previous versions.
18:34	Morgawr	justin_smith: ended up using (reduce #(%2 %1) state (vals (select-keys func-map func-keys)))
18:34	tbaldridge	imok20: read the Restrictions section, subsection (c) and (d)
18:36	imok20	tbaldridge: sub subsection (n) in the same subsection seems to indicate otherwise (given the definition for OEM in the Definitions section)
18:36	tbaldridge	imok20: the free version does quite a bit, and can be included in OSS projects. And then new Pro Starter version released today is free, and has many of the Pro features while still being free.
18:36	tbaldridge	Ah yes, you can contact Cognitect and get a OEM license.
18:37	imok20	tbaldridge: certainly, but I'd just love someone to host datomic similar to how MongoHQ hosts MongoDB or Heroku hosts postgres
18:37	tbaldridge	Wow, that previous comment was poorly constructed on my part.
18:37	imok20	just makes things much easier. i'd like to not have to manage an EC2 instance of my own
18:37	tbaldridge	yes, that would be nice.
18:37	imok20	but no one does, i suppose? :(
18:38	tbaldridge	imok20: currently, no
18:38	technomancy	imok20: very risky to build a with that level of vendor lock-in
18:38	imok20	someone here: do this, i'll be y our first customer
18:38	technomancy	build a business
18:39	benkay	because we really need more MongoHQ-type organizations.
18:39	benkay	this tradeoff between convenience and quality is rarely actually examined
18:40	imok20	benkay: maybe so. however, i love to write application code and not manage servers; i don't have the time or interest in managing a db server myself, and when building a small product and testing it out, trying to raise some revenue, etc, having a hosted version is a wonderful thing.
18:42	justin_smith	Morgawr: nice
18:43	benkay	imok20: look into Orchestrate.
18:43	Morgawr	justin_smith: thanks for using juxt though, I learned about a great function today
18:44	Morgawr	my problem is that I keep forgetting about this stuff, I should write these down
18:44	OscarZ	whats the web development framework focus on clojure ? are there any clearly popular ones atm ? I noticed there is a framework called Pedestal by Rich Hickey & the guys ?
18:44	OscarZ	I did some experimenting on Ring a while back
18:45	Morgawr	OscarZ: pedestal looked interesting, it seems to be an aggregator of good clojure libraries/middleware for web dev, though I never tried any (not a web dev myself)
18:45	justin_smith	many people don't like "frameworks", there are a bunch of different libraries that people combine
18:45	justin_smith	ring, compojure
18:46	muhoo	benkay: immutable licenses?
18:46	imok20	benkay: That looks pretty interesting; I'd love to learn more about it. Signed up to their list. Do you know anything more about them?
18:46	OscarZ	There I first realized the beauty of Clojure... after wrapping up a simple CRUD application I was looking at the code and thinking... "is it all really there?" :D
18:47	OscarZ	Morgawr: ok .. I should probably check that out
18:47	justin_smith	OscarZ: http://www.luminusweb.net/ luminus combines a nice set of deps
18:47	OscarZ	I also used Datomic database in my testing which was cool too
18:47	muhoo	OscarZ: so far i've had that experience with three languages: scheme, python, and clojure. fun to have a 50-line program that is easy to understand and works.
18:47	muhoo	like "whoa, really, is that all? that's it?" fun.
18:48	OscarZ	justin_smith: oh yeah, that sounds familiar too
18:49	OscarZ	Datomic with its Datalog query language was quite amazing too... messy SQL joins could be expressed much more elegantly...
18:50	OscarZ	not sure if it has some limitations that I dont understand
18:52	OscarZ	but these guys are onto something.. they have a programming language, a database (kinda) and a web framework, all built on functional programming concepts
18:52	OscarZ	maybe its the platform of the future :)
18:52	muhoo	THE FUTURE
18:53	muhoo	OscarZ: anyway, have fun playing around with the stuff. looking at it and forming judgements on it is not as much fun as actually using it
18:55	OscarZ	muhoo: well.. i wasnt making judgements, just thinking aloud.. they are all cool and exciting technologies
18:56	OscarZ	just that I know from experience how much momentum the old shitty technologies can have :(
18:59	patchwork	Okay, clojurescript dom manipulation showdown: domina vs dommy vs enfocus vs singult
18:59	patchwork	! I can't believe there are already four contenders
18:59	patchwork	Although is that because cljs is still new and a clear winner has not yet emerged?
19:00	patchwork	Anyway, anyone have thoughts on which is best so far?
19:00	patchwork	Leaning towards enfocus...
19:01	seangrove	patchwork: dommy, without a doubt
19:01	seangrove	Enlive has its charm though, it's just a very different style
19:01	bitemyapp	(don't use enlive)
19:03	akurilin	bitemyapp, Should I not use korma's support for a naming strategy since that functionality is now deprecated in jdbc 0.3 ?
19:03	patchwork	jdbc naming strategy is deprecated?}
19:04	patchwork	What do you do instead?
19:04	akurilin	https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc/blob/3d3c402f65eb9db1fca055f1a0fe3d6db0889215/src/main/clojure/clojure/java/jdbc.clj#L1115
19:04	akurilin	patchwork, I generally pass transformer functions into query/execute!
19:04	akurilin	but now that I'm doing a hybrid with korma, was hoping to get away with that
19:05	akurilin	in Korma right now you can have a bunch of translators when declaring a table, but I was hoping to get away with that at the DB declaration level
19:05	bitemyapp	I don't have any strong opinions here.
19:06	patchwork	So it is being deprecated without some kind of replacement functionality??
19:06	lazybot	patchwork: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
19:06	patchwork	lazybot: I wish you actually knew what you were talking about
19:09	patchwork	prismatic blog is doooooooooooooooown
19:16	dnolen	huh with paredit and lispindent SublimeText 2 ain't so bad for basic Clojure coding.
19:20	muhoo	patchwork: i've played with dommy and domina and prefer dommy
19:21	patchwork	muhoo: I was trying to read about it but the site is down : (
19:22	patchwork	This project already has domina involved for some reason, but I need to do some templating and domina doesn't have that
19:22	patchwork	Is it too mad to have domina and dommy on the same page?
19:22	patchwork	Seems excessive
19:23	patchwork	And on the other hand, singult looks pretty cool: https://github.com/lynaghk/singult
19:30	akurilin	I guess I was mixing things up a bit. The DB-level naming strategy is just for key names, whereas table-level transform lets you change result set contents.
19:30	akurilin	in addition to key names
19:31	patchwork	akurilin: RIght. I use the naming strategy quite a bit
19:31	patchwork	I am sad to hear it is deprecated
19:31	akurilin	patchwork, yeah I'm completely obsessive over the whole underscore to dash translation thing.
19:32	akurilin	so it's quite convenient for me
19:32	patchwork	akurilin: For awhile we had underscores for key names and dashes for everything else. It was maddening
19:32	patchwork	the naming strategy was a godsend
19:33	bitemyapp	akurilin: I don't mess with any of the names or transform anything.
19:33	patchwork	bitemyapp: So you freely mix underscores and dashes?
19:34	bitemyapp	patchwork: using the word "freely" there makes an implication that isn't accurate.
19:34	bitemyapp	More like, "carefully"
19:34	bitemyapp	specifically, there's a distinction between what came from the database and what's internal.
19:34	patchwork	bitemyapp: Right. So you accept the mental load. Are you the only one working on the project?
19:34	bitemyapp	of course...it would be easier to track such things and keep them straight if one had a useful type system...
19:35	patchwork	I found I was able to keep track of it all, but when anyone else had to use it they suffered
19:35	patchwork	It caused suffering
19:35	patchwork	and Angst
19:36	seangrove	patchwork: Why are you explosing datgbase details to the rest of your code?
19:36	patchwork	seangrove: Not database details, but the maps that came back from queries were used in other places
19:37	patchwork	Access to those keys used a different convention than every other name in the system
19:37	bitemyapp	patchwork: I'm not the only person.
19:37	patchwork	seangrove: At some point data from the db has to be used somewhere in code
19:38	seangrove	patchwork: I don't think we have any sql/db access outside of a few namespaces that provide the interface to get data for the rest of the system. So called "models", but not quite as much.
19:38	patchwork	seangrove: So at some point you translate those keys into some other structure?
19:38	seangrove	patchwork: Yes, external to those namespaces
19:39	bitemyapp	It's good to see I represent a non-trivial fraction of the support load for Cognitect.
19:39	devn`	So, I don't have a place to stay for the conj yet.
19:40	devn`	Not sure what I'm gonna do now. You may see me sleeping in the hotel lobby.
19:40	patchwork	seangrove: So you just translate them later rather than use the jdbc to translate them for you, in a way (without really knowing the details of what you are working on)
19:40	noonian	can i assume that (keys m) and (vals m) will always return keys and vals in the same order for a given map m? i.e. (zipmap (keys m) (vals m)) will always = m?
19:40	patchwork	noonian: No
19:40	noonian	lame :p
19:40	noonian	patchwork: thanks
19:40	bitemyapp	noonian: hey
19:41	patchwork	In practice they usually do, but clojure maps are semantically unordered
19:41	bitemyapp	noonian: don't rely on ordering in any form in unordered maps.
19:41	noonian	bitemyapp: yo
19:41	bitemyapp	noonian: k? k.
19:41	justin_smith	patchwork: but isn't the same map always deterministic?
19:41	noonian	thats what I thought
19:41	justin_smith	it's only deterministic when you add or remove a value, no?
19:41	patchwork	justin_smith: It is like undefined behavior in C
19:41	bitemyapp	wouldn't seq'ing over the map keep the keys and vals together?
19:41	patchwork	The implementation could change at any time
19:42	noonian	i think the question is really will (seq m) always give the same order for the same m
19:42	patchwork	and then if you were relying on that behavior your code would be broken
19:43	justin_smith	patchwork: so at some point there may exist a clojure version where (zipmap (keys m) (vals m)) is not equal to m
19:43	justin_smith	but afaik order is stable until you add or remove values
19:43	patchwork	justin_smith: Right… for now
19:43	devn`	If anyone 'round these parts wants to offset some of the hotel cost or is generous enough to share a room: I'm going to be out late most nights. If that sounds like something you could put up with, let me know.
19:43	patchwork	But semantically, it is undefined
19:44	patchwork	So it is not something any self-respecting code should depend on
19:44	noonian	so zipmap is not for dealing with existing maps, but only for creating maps from seqs where you can count on the order
19:44	justin_smith	noonian: I think so
19:45	noonian	(defn keys-and-vals [m] (let [pairs (seq m), ks (map first pairs), vals (map second pairs)] [ks vals]))
19:46	justin_smith	also, if you want the keys and the vals you are likely better off doing something like (reduce (fn [[ks vs] [k v]] [(conj ks k) (conj vs v)]) [[][]] mp)
19:46	noonian	then zipmap with that lol
19:46	devn`	So, I realize there's no order guarantee for maps, but in a two element map, for all the tests I've messed with, I'm not getting any ordering issues.
19:46	justin_smith	my version only walks the seq once :)
19:46	devn`	Is it reasonable to expect the order won't be weird for 2 element maps?
19:46	noonian	devn`: yeah, but the map implementation will change depending on how large it is i believe
19:46	noonian	arraymap and treemap iirc
19:47	patchwork	devn`: Don't make any assumptions about order in maps
19:47	patchwork	because at some point in the future your code will break and people will die
19:47	devn`	noonian: nod -- i have a huge list of maps that someone else wrote to a file. I could search and replace { -> [ and } -> ], but I was just curious if for 2 element maps I could get away with it, assuming the keys and values are all the same.
19:48	metellus	you probably could, but it would be a coincidence
19:49	noonian	devn`: well, if you care about the order of the key value pairs in the map i wouldn't, i don't care about order, just that for a given index in keys and vals they would belong to the same key value pair
19:50	noonian	but if it works it works :P
19:50	devn`	yeah, i care about order -- i should just quit beating this issue to death
19:50	patchwork	devn`: It may work now, but not in a month
19:50	devn`	im navel gazing
19:50	metellus	if you care about order why not use a sorted-map
19:50	noonian	if it works for you today and you trust it enough, i would do that then re-serialize it as a sequence :P
19:51	devn`	i just like working with maps before converting it back to CSV. but in any event, someone already posted a link to a flatland project which provides maps with order guarantees
19:51	devn`	so uhh, ill use that
19:51	devn`	metellus: because the headers won't match
19:52	devn`	unless i write them out by hand to match the sorted-map just before coercing maps bac to vecs
19:52	devn`	anyway, don't mind me, just trying to fit a square peg into a round hole
19:52	metellus	ah
19:52	devn`	because i really dislike treating csv rows like vectors
19:53	devn`	i like to zipmap and operate, and then coerce back to proper rows that clojure.data.csv expects
19:53	dnolen	super newbie friendly post on ClojureScript http://swannodette.github.io/2013/11/07/clojurescript-101/ using mies
19:53	dnolen	feedback welcome
19:53	devn`	dnolen: I loved your last post
19:53	devn`	I didn't know about mies
19:53	dnolen	devn`: just trying to make it easier for people who just want to try it without going through config hell
19:54	devn`	dnolen: a couple of my coworkers have been tinkering simply because of your last post
19:54	dnolen	devn`: that's great to hear!
19:55	bitemyapp	devn`: you don't like destructuring vectors?
19:55	bitemyapp	devn`: weirdo :)
19:55	bitemyapp	dnolen: is there a "mies" for piggieback/austin?
19:55	devn`	bitemyapp: there are a TON of columns
19:55	bitemyapp	devn`: sad-face. Gotcha.
19:56	devn`	bitemyapp: this is basically just me doing ETL in clojure
19:56	dnolen	bitemyapp: haven't tried piggieback/austin yet, but there probably should be - Lein templates are really cool
19:56	devn`	so it's nice to dissoc, assoc, etc. to combine with another giant CSV
19:56	devn`	but that messes up order
19:57	dnolen	feel free to give my post some HN love
19:57	bitemyapp	dnolen: a lot of the pain people have with cljs centers around trying to get the interactive workflow working reliably in piggieback/austin.
19:57	bitemyapp	dnolen: upboated :)
19:57	devn`	dnolen: one note. even if you don't have mies you can just run the command, right?
19:57	dnolen	bitemyapp: sure but that's for someone else to solve - I got enough tutorials to write of my own.
19:57	dnolen	devn`: that is correct
19:57	devn`	The way you write "you can follow along if..." makes it sound like it's a prerequisite
19:58	devn`	I think it's good to explain what it is though
19:58	dnolen	devn`: good point removed
19:58	devn`	err you don't say "if" you say "by"
19:58	devn`	i like that you explain what it is though, because otherwise im like: "why does lein mies work?"
19:59	justin_smith	devn`:
19:59	justin_smith	,(->> rand repeatedly (partition 4) (take 20) (map (juxt identity #(apply hash-map %))) (map #(map (comp flatten seq) %)) (map #(apply = %)) set)
19:59	clojurebot	#{true false}
19:59	justin_smith	sometimes it works, sometimes not
19:59	justin_smith	for two element maps
19:59	devn`	justin_smith: i've moved on. I'm just lamenting facts of life.
19:59	justin_smith	ok, I was actually surprised to see evidence that even with two elements the ordering would sometimes change
20:00	devn`	yeah, it was a little surprising to me as well -- i don't recall seeing those things switch order on the REPL ever
20:00	noonian	thanks dnolen, i'm hoping to dive into core.async shortly in cljs
20:00	bitemyapp	justin_smith: Science. I like it.
20:01	patchwork	justin_smith: For your next experiment, dereference an uninitialized pointer in C
20:01	justin_smith	sure thing
20:01	justin_smith	result: #{crash, nothing, wtf}
20:02	patchwork	I love undefined behavior
20:02	doctorinserenity	Are there reasonable ways to print edn with tagged types or should I just not bother with that for now?
20:03	justin_smith	doctorinserenity: doesn't every edn input unambiguously result in a single type?
20:04	justin_smith	that is to say, when would the reader find any type ambiguity in edn input?
20:04	doctorinserenity	justin_smith: edn input works fine, I'm asking about outputting it
20:05	justin_smith	the point being the read will be deterministic, so why tag the output?
20:05	justin_smith	or do you mean tagging in the function producing the output?
20:07	dnolen	noonian: nows a good time things are getting solid
20:07	doctorinserenity	say you want to send some edn to an API using tagged types for convenience
20:08	justin_smith	an edn reader will always get the same types from the same edn
20:08	justin_smith	no tagging needed - so you want tagging in the input function that uses the edn, not the edn itself
20:09	doctorinserenity	justin_smith: not sure what you're getting at
20:09	justin_smith	type tags help functions not dispatch at runtime
20:10	justin_smith	nothing in the edn file itself will prevent the edn reader from dispatching at runtime
20:10	justin_smith	because it generates multiple types by definition
20:11	justin_smith	*help methods not dispatch at runtime
20:13	bitemyapp	Just released the first public version of my Datomic migration toolkit: https://github.com/bitemyapp/brambling
20:13	justin_smith	doctorinserenity: also, more to the point, edn has no facility for metadata https://github.com/edn-format/edn
20:14	doctorinserenity	by tags I mean user defined types
20:14	doctorinserenity	not metadata
20:14	justin_smith	oh shit, sorry
20:15	doctorinserenity	it seems like a nice idea and easy to use as long as you're reading edn
20:15	doctorinserenity	but a mess when producing it
20:16	bitemyapp	https://news.ycombinator.com/newest I too, have something that I would like upboats for :)
20:16	justin_smith	doctorinserenity: java.util.Date prints out a readable edn tag
20:17	doctorinserenity	justin_smith: I know
20:17	justin_smith	so there is likely a way to specify a to-string that is edn readable
20:18	akurilin	Ah, you can't with-redef defn- functions huh?
20:19	justin_smith	doctorinserenity: another lead is that pr-str results in the readable forms of things, while str does not
20:20	justin_smith	doctorinserenity: and for that, you want to extend the print-dup multi-method for your type
20:20	justin_smith	I had to do some digging for that one
20:25	doctorinserenity	justin_smith: thanks!
20:25	justin_smith	np, sorry I misunderstood at first
20:37	ToxicFrog	What in the entire hell is this
20:37	ToxicFrog	If I run my program with 'lein run', it works fine
20:38	ToxicFrog	If I 'lein uberjar' and then run the jar, the output is truncated
20:38	ToxicFrog	...but only if I have it output to stdout
20:39	ToxicFrog	If I explicitly (.close out) it's fine.
20:41	Raynes	gfredericks: Yes, I did.
20:45	xeqi	ToxicFrog: makes me think you are using a library that doesn't (flush) out when you expect it to
20:46	ToxicFrog	xeqi: the surprise is that OS doesn't flush on exit()
20:46	lpvb	seesaw is much easier than my implentation of swing abstraction. I should avoid reinventing the wheel
20:47	earle	hi
20:53	lpvb	I need to have an integer scale factor for my gui, so I need a mutable variable to hold the scale factor, how do I do that in clojure?
20:55	justin_smith	lpvb: you can use an atom and swap! or reset! to update it
20:55	ea-	why not just make a function to determine scale?
20:55	ea-	or set! an atom
20:56	justin_smith	ea-: you may be thinking of reset!, set! does not working atoms
20:56	justin_smith	*work on
20:58	ea-	yeah reset!
20:58	justin_smith	I like how talking about atoms makes us seem so excited
21:03	akurilin	Is there any way I can profile a clojure.test run to see which exact call the system is hanging on?
21:04	akurilin	As in, something I'm calling is intermittently taking forever.
21:04	amalloy	akurilin: if it's hanging, you can use jstack
21:04	justin_smith	akurilin: you could connect with jdb or cdt to see where it is in the stack
21:05	justin_smith	amalloy: cool, I did not know about jstack
21:05	akurilin	To be accurate, it's something that occasionally takes an extra 10 seconds to run as opposed to 0. I originally thought it was wrap-session running out of entropy, but I'm not so sure now.
21:05	akurilin	Hence I'm thinking profiling rather than an actual debugger, unless I can break at the right time
21:06	justin_smith	yeah, that does sound like a job for proper profiling
21:06	justin_smith	jvisualvm is a simple way to do that
21:07	akurilin	justin_smith, I'll look into that, thanks.
21:07	justin_smith	akurilin: the trick with jvisualvm is you may need the process to be open but not running so you can connect and profile a few runs - so your best bet would likely be to run the tests from the repl (start repl; connect and turn on profiling; run tests from the repl a few times)
21:08	akurilin	justin_smith, got it, makes sense.
21:21	akurilin	Is Korma's prepare a reasonable place to convert joda to sql.time?
21:31	gfredericks	akurilin: you might be able to avoid converting altogether
21:31	gfredericks	if korma has a protocol or something
21:32	akurilin	gfredericks, something along the lines of cheshire's custom serialization?
21:33	gfredericks	yeah
21:34	gfredericks	I've done that with korma before but A) I think it took patching and B) that was a long long time ago
21:41	bja	in cljs am I allowed to have a namespace with only the ns definition and a defmethod?
21:41	bja	trying to figure out why my defmethod doesn't exist in the output js
21:46	bja	it seems that unless I actually refer to the namespace with just a defmethod in it, it isn't picked up by the cljs compiler
21:46	bja	has anyone else encountered this behavior?
21:49	amalloy	bja: you have to require the namespace at some point, or the code won't be loaded at all. in that case there will be no method defined, of course
21:54	bja	amalloy: thank you. that makes complete sense when I consider it that way.
21:54	muhoo	is there any special magick required to get source maps in cljs with austin/nrepl stacktraces?
22:07	seangrove	muhoo: You mean inside of nrepl.el, or in the browser?
22:15	irctc	hello,
22:16	irctc	I have a one page webapp written in cljs
22:16	irctc	and im having performance problems
22:16	irctc	any advice?
22:16	irctc	bottleneck is data structiure manipulations for vectors, maps, sets
22:16	irctc	structure*
22:17	ea-	url?
22:17	clojurebot	something
22:17	irctc	only running locally at the moment
22:18	irctc	I'm looking for general
22:18	irctc	clojurescript perf advice
22:20	seangrove	irctc: Profile, possibly drop down to using native Javascript objects
22:20	seangrove	Probably don't need to do that, but with such a vague problem, really can't help much
22:20	irctc	I've identified the actual problem in my case
22:20	irctc	i'm adding data to a large map
22:21	irctc	I'm looking into using transients
22:21	irctc	or just dropping into js
22:21	dee5	Hello, how do I represent the space character?
22:21	irctc	but any general pointers would be nice before i get started
22:21	irctc	on the server i would just stick on type hints and call it a day
22:22	dee5	nevermind (:
22:23	seangrove	irctc: Not sure at all, but sounds like it'd be vary useful for the rest of us if you documented your experience
22:27	seangrove	irctc: Also, are you testing performance with advanced compilation?
22:53	akurilin	bitemyapp, I think you were saying something about defn- the other day.
22:54	akurilin	bitemyapp, is it possible to still override a function in a different namespace if it's defined with defn-?
22:54	Shiro-Ichida	So, I'm new to Clojure. I installed lein and made a new project. I can run the main with lein run but if I do lein repl it gives me an exception, java.net.ConnectException: Connection timed out: connect
22:55	akurilin	More specifically, I'd love to override default-fk-name to be able to support the users -> user_id FK scenario
22:55	jared314	Shiro-Ichida: what OS?
22:55	Shiro-Ichida	I looked online and apparently you can increase the timeout, so I tried that, but it didn't seem to do anything.
22:55	Shiro-Ichida	Windows, installer.
23:20	dobry-den	I had to yakshave so far back to implement some elliptic curve math that i was watching a 7th grade classroom youtube vid on slope-intercept form
23:21	dobry-den	scary
23:54	gtuckerkellogg	trying out cider, but it seems not to work :(
23:54	muhoo	seangrove: in nrepl.el
23:55	muhoo	akurilin: you could do alter-var-root stuf, i think, but it sounds sketchy and monkey-patchy to me
23:56	seangrove	gtuckerkellogg: Yeah, it's not ready. I don't know what the idea with the change was, but Cider is rough around the edges. If you're not already very comfortable with nrepl.el, I wouldn't recommend the switch.
23:56	gtuckerkellogg	i was comfortable with nrepl
23:56	gtuckerkellogg	but cider -- which i'm enthusiastic about -- gives me a REPL buffer but no prompt, in the simplest demo context
23:58	gtuckerkellogg	my inferior-lisp-buffer is nil
23:58	bitemyapp	akurilin: it's possible to override private vars. Don't.
23:59	akurilin	bitemyapp, so my option is to fork it?