#clojure – 2013-10-25

2013-10-25

00:11	sritchie	hey all --
00:11	sritchie	do you guys have a rec for functional reactive programming libraries for Clojurescript?
00:12	tbaldridge	sritchie: I'd look into core.async. You'll probably find that it's much more sensible than FRP
00:13	sritchie	tbaldridge: okay, that's fair. I've been following dnolen's examples
00:13	sritchie	just trying to figure out how all of the pieces fit together
00:13	tbaldridge	sritchie: FRP tends you put you into a world where you have to put everything into a FRP world. Core.async makes it easier to mix event streams into existing code.
00:15	sritchie	cool. just found a good todo list example
00:15	sritchie	should be perfect
00:21	bitemyapp	seangrove: not yet, but there have been rumblings of cljx.
00:21	ddellacosta	sritchie: not that I disagree with tbaldridge--I've found core.async a real blessing--but this is useful if you want to investigate FRP in Clojure(/Script) further: http://kevinoncode.blogspot.jp/2013/05/a-short-survey-on-state-of-functional.html
00:22	bitemyapp	sritchie: I'm with tbaldridge. I had a pretty easy time mixing core.async into a work project without having to remodel everything in terms of FRP
00:23	sritchie	good to know - I'll go core.async, and play with FRP in Scala (in the upcoming coursera class)
00:23	sritchie	one more qq, as it looks like we've got some clojurescript folks around -
00:23	justicefries	ooh, mind linking to the coursera class?
00:23	sritchie	sure, one sec
00:24	sritchie	This is the "intro the scala" course on Coursera, supposedly really good: https://www.coursera.org/course/progfun
00:24	sritchie	I'm at Twitter, and a bunch of folks here took this and loved it
00:24	sritchie	and this is the sequel, Principles of Reactive Programming: https://www.coursera.org/course/reactive
00:25	sritchie	Erik Meijer wrote that Reactive Manifesto, and Odersky wrote scala, so good instructors
00:25	sritchie	one more qq - lein-cljsbuild seems to be the tool of choice?
00:25	sritchie	and it looks compatible with cljz?
00:25	sritchie	err
00:25	sritchie	cljx
00:25	bitemyapp	sritchie: lein-cljsbuild is the tool of choice.
00:26	bitemyapp	sritchie: I would just mention that cljs isn't required to experiment with core.async if that is exclusively what you have in mind.
00:26	sritchie	bitemyapp: yup, I've played with it in clojure - I'm working on a race timing system,
00:27	sritchie	and want to update my app to show live results on each race page
00:27	sritchie	so core.async + websockets + cljs seems like the way to go there
00:27	seangrove	sritchie: Sounds like a pretty good match, yeah
00:28	sritchie	Just trying to figure out if the right way to start sharing code; looks like cljsbuild's crossovers will do it
00:28	sritchie	and I'm not seeing pitches for cljx; but I'll play with both
00:28	bitemyapp	Erlang users have to be pissed that their concurrency model is getting co-opted into a marketing campaign for a different language.
00:28	sritchie	it's exciting to be back coding more clojure!
00:28	bitemyapp	pi-calculus not-withstanding
00:29	sritchie	haha
00:29	bitemyapp	sritchie: if I know Haskell and Clojure, what do you think I would get out of learning more Scala?
00:29	bitemyapp	you seem best positioned to know out of most here.
00:30	sritchie	bitemyapp: if you know Haskell already… the eye opener for me was an understanding of the type system, but that won't be new for you
00:30	bitemyapp	The primary utility of Scala over Haskell for me would be the JVM, which is fine, but I'm wondering what I could learn.
00:30	sritchie	yes, for sure
00:30	sritchie	learning Scala taught me a lot about proper object oriented design
00:30	bitemyapp	sritchie: I've already been poking my nose around Scalaz. I'm a Fluokitten nut in Clojure too :P
00:31	bitemyapp	proper OOP? I think you just tripped over the Clojure anti-shibboleth. ;)
00:31	sritchie	haha
00:31	sritchie	I was terrible at writing these libraries when I first started, not trusting the type system;
00:31	sritchie	but I find myself using records and protocols in Clojure much more heavily now
00:31	bitemyapp	I think given the history of the compiler, I wouldn't trust it either >:P
00:31	sritchie	:)
00:32	sritchie	as a way to write Clojure libraries that are extensible by the user
00:32	bitemyapp	sritchie: multimethods are fine too ;_;
00:32	technomancy	when I was playing with OCaml, it seemed like the whole point of using records was to get exhaustiveness checks from pattern matches
00:32	technomancy	which was very cool
00:33	technomancy	but not applicable at all to untyped clojure
00:33	bitemyapp	technomancy: seems like a cherry-picking of what Haskellers use monads for.
00:33	bitemyapp	pretty interesting.
00:33	sritchie	technomancy: yeah, you end up just hoping you don't forget one of the damned types, and adding nodes only with much thought
00:34	technomancy	sritchie: does scala give you exhastiveness checks on matches too?
00:34	sritchie	yup
00:34	technomancy	handy
00:34	sritchie	you can do algebraic data types with the pattern of
00:34	sritchie	sealed trait A; case class B extends A; case class C extends A;
00:34	sritchie	"sealed" means that all implementations are found in that file
00:35	technomancy	does typed clojure cover core.match yet?
00:35	technomancy	that could be a stretch goal =)
00:35	sritchie	:) I haven't played with core.typed yet; really excited that Ambrose has gotten so much support, though
00:37	sritchie	bitemyapp: so, yeah, JVM, object oriented design, learning to lean on type inference and type classes;
00:37	sritchie	bitemyapp: another thing that Scala does really well (not sure what it maps to in Haskell) is implicit parameters
00:37	sritchie	which took a while to learn to think about
00:38	sritchie	basically, a function can declare that it takes some parameter of type T implicitly (or many parameters); the type system has a series of scopes that it searches for declared variables of that type
00:38	sritchie	and the process works recursively
00:38	sritchie	it's type-safe dependency injection, basically
00:38	sritchie	and you can make the type system do a hell of a lot of work for you
00:38	technomancy	compiler-enforced dynamic binding?
00:39	sritchie	yeah, that's one way of putting it -
00:39	sritchie	folks use this to pass around little environments, say by taking an implicit Config object on all methods -
00:40	sritchie	then it can be used in the functions, but you don't have to actually pass it in each time
00:40	bitemyapp	oh whoa.
00:40	sritchie	we use it in the work I've been doing to build up these Monoid instances to do aggregation in analytics
00:41	sritchie	here's one example (then I'll shut up about Scala in this channel :)
00:41	bitemyapp	sritchie: I'm enjoying this!
00:41	sritchie	say my function takes an (implicit monoid: Monoid[V])
00:41	sritchie	(a monoid is an interface with "plus", so it can add two Vs together to get a third V… super simple, not a Monad, just an Adder)
00:42	bitemyapp	sritchie: Haskell does have this in case you were wondering.
00:42	bitemyapp	"Implicit parameters: dynamic scoping with static types", J Lewis, MB Shields, E Meijer, J Launchbury, 27th ACM Symposium on Principles of Programming Languages (POPL'00), Boston, Jan 2000
00:42	sritchie	okay, cool, shame on me to think they're missing any of this business :)
00:42	sritchie	a function that takes an implicit Monoid[V] basically "asks" the compiler for an instance of a Monoid for whatever V you actually used
00:43	bitemyapp	You know people wise-crack about how Emacs has an option or key combo for everything? GHC's compiler flags are like that.
00:43	sritchie	nice
00:43	sritchie	so if I called that function with V = Map[String, Long],
00:43	sritchie	the compiler would go do a search and find a function I wrote that declares the Monoid[Map[K, V]]
00:44	bitemyapp	type constraints on implicit parameters in Haskell are optional, due to the Damas Milner.
00:44	sritchie	(which is basically (partial merge-with <some-monoid-on-V>)
00:44	bitemyapp	so the compiler will go on similar "search", but it'll do so with the most generalizable Damas Milner type signature for the function.
00:44	bitemyapp	you can constrain with a specified type if desired though.
00:44	sritchie	and then that function ALSO implicitly takes a Monoid[V]; so the compiler goes and finds that, and passes the final one in the the function I wanted.
00:44	sritchie	bitemyapp: okay, wild
00:45	bitemyapp	it does require pausing for a moment to think about the most general applicable typeclass for your function is though.
00:45	bitemyapp	leads to pretty reusable code, which is nice, since anybody can implement something for the same typeclass.
00:45	bitemyapp	doesn't have to be a specific impl or anything.
00:46	sritchie	Scala does that with different implicit scopes
00:46	bitemyapp	sritchie: are monoids common to your work because commutative operations are useful in your work?
00:46	sritchie	so you can override the default Monoid[Int]
00:46	sritchie	bitemyapp: yeah, we built this MapReduce library called Summingbird that uses them for that reason
00:46	sritchie	http://github.com/twitter/summingbird
00:46	bitemyapp	I knew you worked on Summingbird, was just wondering in general.
00:47	sritchie	bitemyapp: so we as library implementers have been trying to solve the systems issues in terms of the algebraic properties of the V,
00:47	bitemyapp	sritchie: how much cross-talk is there between Summingbird and Cascalog/Cascalog 2?
00:47	sritchie	and yeah, commutativity and associativity
00:47	dobry-den	What's the go-to method for writing the function (foo "ffff") -> 65535
00:47	sritchie	bitemyapp: after Summingbird was released I found a few days and rewrote the guts of Cascalog to make the planner implementation generic;
00:47	sritchie	which means that before clojure/conj we'll have a Storm planner
00:48	dobry-den	(unsigned numbers)
00:48	bitemyapp	sritchie: one of the things I like about writing Haskell is that I can often just "guess" at the correct code and let the compiler inform me as to how to write what I meant. Do you find Scala lends itself to this as well?
00:48	bitemyapp	also, how do you deal with the slow compile times? this is a genuine concern if I'm doing the "mash build, get type error" event loop.
00:48	sritchie	bitemyapp: it still has java stack trace awfulness, but yes;
00:48	bitemyapp	I'd heard about fsc but didn't know how much it helped.
00:49	sritchie	and the same loveliness with refactorings and large code changes as well
00:49	bitemyapp	sritchie: oh pish. I write Clojure. I eat stacktraces taller than my desk for breakfast.
00:49	sritchie	haha
00:49	bitemyapp	sritchie: what about compile times? Does fsc help? Do you use anything for this?
00:49	bitemyapp	a build cluster? :P
00:49	sritchie	no, it's freaking terrible
00:49	sritchie	on our large internal projects
00:49	sritchie	it's absolutely abysmal
00:49	bitemyapp	there's nothing to help with this?
00:50	sritchie	there is,
00:50	coventry	dobry-den: ##(Long/parseLong "ffff" 16)
00:50	lazybot	⇒ 65535
00:50	sritchie	and Ensime + Emacs does a really good job
00:50	sritchie	but we have an old pythonish build system at Twitter compiling our Scala,
00:50	sritchie	and it's just not good at incremental compilation
00:50	bitemyapp	Ensime...handles the incremental compilation for you?
00:50	dobry-den	coventry: How about for bigintegers?
00:50	sritchie	bitemyapp: yeah
00:50	sritchie	I think a lot of folks just use Intellij, which does use Zinc under the hood for incremental compilation
00:50	bitemyapp	Whoa.
00:51	bitemyapp	Brava my Emacs brethren, brava.
00:51	sritchie	yup, no compelling reason to leave emacs yet, even for Scsala
00:51	sritchie	for java, hell yeah
00:51	bitemyapp	sritchie: when you say pythonish build system...is this standing in for what people use sbt for?
00:51	coventry	dobry-den: Don't know.
00:51	sritchie	bitemyapp: yes
00:51	sritchie	whoops, gotta run for some dinner --
00:51	sritchie	back soon
00:51	sritchie	fun talking about this stuff!
00:52	bitemyapp	sritchie: please do come back. I have to go to a birthday thing but look forward to speaking to you more!
00:52	dobry-den	coventry: nevermind, (BigInteger. 1 (hex-decode "ffff")) -> 65535
00:52	dobry-den	yeah, dumb question but ive been staring at my mess of hex/bytes/int converter functions for too long
00:53	coventry	Hmm, where would you find the docs for that? It's not on http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/math/BigInteger.html
00:53	dobry-den	coventry: yeah i was just there and saw this constructor: BigInteger(int signum, byte[] magnitude)
00:53	dobry-den	i guessed that 1 for signum is positive, 0 is negative
00:54	coventry	Ah, I see.
00:54	dobry-den	im new to working with bytes/hex/number-overflow so ive been rewriting my code to just pretend everything is a biginteger
01:13	dobry-den	What would a Typed Clojure workflow look like? Do you add annotations as you go or are annotations more helpful when you want to 'solidify' your code?
01:15	bitemyapp	dobry-den: I'd recommend adding them as you go.
01:48	marcopolo2	how does the cljs hash function work?
02:03	marcopolo2	nvm source code was pretty helpful
02:32	arrdem	is there a compelling reason to use something besides clojure.tools.reader for EDN?
02:34	muhoo	arrdem: clojure.edn/read-string is what i use
02:35	muhoo	or other things in clojure.edn namespace. is either included in 1.5.1 or as a transitive dependency of things i always include, not sure which
02:36	muhoo	what's the tool of choice for creating api docs from a library that doesn't come with api docs?
02:36	arrdem	muhoo: ok thanks. I knew there was tools.reader, but I couldn't find data.edn. yay naming consistency.
02:42	arrdem	ugh. If I want function literals I'm stuck with "real" clojure, arn't I.
02:43	Apage43	meaning #(do stuff here) ? yeah, those aren't "in" EDN
02:43	Apage43	oh fun
02:44	muhoo	just use read-string
02:44	arrdem	hey guys, chord is begging to get unbant :P
02:45	arrdem	Okay. fooie.
02:45	muhoo	not the edn version. it evals, IIRC, and that's something to consider the security issues of.
02:46	muhoo	,(doc read-string)
02:46	clojurebot	"([s]); Reads one object from the string s. Note that read-string can execute code (controlled by read-eval), and as such should be used only with trusted sources. For data structure interop use clojure.edn/read-string"
02:46	arrdem	yeah so the issue I'm running into is that I need configuration files with embedded code. I really don't want to build a DSL, so that's probably just embedded clojure.
02:46	arrdem	the security risks of having a directory of plugin source files that are assumed safe are obvious, but I fear unavoidable.
02:47	Apage43	that's leiningen, riemann
02:47	Apage43	your "configuration" is just a clojure program
02:48	Apage43	What's the trust model here?
02:49	arrdem	Apage43: user provided configs eval'd on the users host. AKA none.
02:49	Apage43	I mean, if you don't actually have any reason to prevent input from any particular class of source from executing code, don't bother. It's a headache.
02:50	arrdem	Okie doke... (load-file) it is :D
02:51	Apage43	Hell, it's a feature :)
02:52	arrdem	haha. If I really decide that I care I'll create a sandboxed ns and (load-file) in there. some other day once the prototype works.
04:38	ChongLi	yeah I keep dying to eels
04:38	ChongLi	oops
05:18	dobry-den	Anybody on OSX Mavericks notice process `distnoted` taking up large chunk of memory?
05:21	vijaykiran	dobry-den: yup - it has been like that since betas
05:22	vijaykiran	I keep killing it every now and then
05:27	dobry-den	i keep feeling like i have 5 zombie jvms running
05:28	dobry-den	not sure why i upgraded. it was an impulse at 4am. anything to procrastinate sleep, even potentially breaking my environment
05:29	dobry-den	but frankly the only thing ive noticed amiss aside from distnoted is Alfred
05:30	dobry-den	"define <word>", "spell <word>" no longer work which i depend on for sounding coherent on the internet
05:59	deg	What is the compiler trying to tell me when lein jar suddenly starts failing on the first line of my program with "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/tools/reader/reader_types/Reader, compiling:(server.clj:1:1)"
06:01	mercwithamouth	has anyone tried Cider out yet? it's built on top of emacs-live....
06:02	mercwithamouth	i'm having a hard time understanding what it actually is...emacs-live seems overly damn complete
06:02	mercwithamouth	ahh just an update to nrepl...m
06:02	mercwithamouth	nm*
06:17	CookedGryphon	Hi, I'm trying to reflect all the public fields of some POD java objects
06:17	CookedGryphon	bean does exactly what I want, but isn't available on this platform
06:18	CookedGryphon	clojure.reflect is available and I can get a list of the symbols I want off the class but am having trouble turning that into a way of accessing the field on the object
06:35	broquaint	FYI my nrepl/cider problem was resolved by removing the *.elc files.
06:37	ambrosebs	technomancy: core.typed support for core.match will happen
06:38	ambrosebs	CinC really helps, played around a bit already http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2zts1hW19k
07:43	Viesti	dunno if it is even worth asking, but is there a way to find references to a symbol in nrepl.el, like a counterpart to nrepl-jump
07:44	supreme__	Hi, has anyone used moving average to smoothen out "hotness" over time for "topics"?
07:44	supreme__	like topic A got 10 hits but they happend 50 minutes ago and topic B has only 8 hits but they all happend 5 minutes ago, then topic B is more "hot"
07:44	supreme__	is moving average a good choice for this?
07:45	supreme__	without overdoing it and using something like Storm
08:18	corecode	looking for people interested in creating a good open-source schematic capture + layout system in clojure. plz take a number, everybody will get in.
09:14	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: You start work awfully early for being a west-coaster. :P
09:15	tbaldridge	mdrogalis: I work on EST time, so yeah, I tend to start early.
09:16	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: I suppose you get to finish early, so that's good. :)
09:40	dobry-den	datomic has been the perfect database for modeling the bitcoin blockchain
09:42	dobry-den	not so much h2 though -_-
09:47	dobry-den	i wonder how they stand on granting something like open-source licenses for datomic
09:48	mdrogalis	dobry-den: You can use the free edition for open source.
10:51	silasdavis	I want every thread in my application to have its own s3 client
10:51	silasdavis	what's a nice way of doing this?
10:53	mdrogalis	silasdavis: Are you using futures?
10:54	silasdavis	I'm using a scheduledtaskexecutor
10:54	silasdavis	through at-at
10:54	silasdavis	so.. um, no?
10:55	silasdavis	currently I'm doing a lot of passing s3-client around
10:55	silasdavis	which I don't particularly like
10:59	mdrogalis	silasdavis: You could use thread-local bindings I suppose.
11:01	silasdavis	so use a set! statement in the head of my thread's main function?
11:02	mdrogalis	silasdavis: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7387098/threadlocal-counter-in-clojure
11:31	noncom	hi, what is the idiomatic way to get a subvector from a vector by indices. for example, i have a vector and i want a subvector which starts at index 5 and goes up for 10 positions, ending on index 15
11:32	noncom	drop-take?
11:38	nathanic	noncom: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/subvec
11:58	seangrove	cemerick: We have an html page we use for developing that has a few dom elements and the generated javascript - it's not clear how I can get austin to open up that page. Am I misunderstanding the usecase for austin?
11:59	cemerick	seangrove: this is the page that contains/loads your app?
11:59	seangrove	Yes
12:00	seangrove	With piggieback, we call `(repl/connect "http://localhost:9000/repl")` from it
12:00	cemerick	seangrove: in that use case, _you_ open that page in your browser.
12:00	cemerick	Just like the classic browser REPL, except you don't have to mess with port numbers, can have multiple browser REPLs running, etc.
12:02	seangrove	cemerick: Do I open the page in the window that opens from running `(cemerick.austin.repls/exec :exec-cmds ["open" "-ga" "/Applications/Google Chrome Canary.app"])`? Navigating away seems to (obviously) break the connection
12:02	cemerick	seangrove: no, that's solely for "headless" REPLs that still have your project's code on the classpath, etc.
12:02	seangrove	Say my page is on http://localhost:3001/example.html and the repl env has opened on http://localhost:59554/2305/repl/start
12:03	seangrove	Ok, let me re-read
12:03	cemerick	There's two use cases; the classic browser-connected REPL one is detailed @ https://github.com/cemerick/austin/tree/master/browser-connected-repl-sample
12:04	seangrove	cemerick: Wait, do I want the classic browser-connected REPL? I'm manipulating the dom and rendering templates to see how they look.
12:07	cemerick	seangrove: Yeah, you need your app open and initiating the connection so you can see it behaving, etc.
12:07	cemerick	The headless option is fine for automated testing of DOM manipulations and such, but none of that is going to be human-visible, etc.
12:08	seangrove	cemerick: Yeah, sorry, I thought I was doing the project repl
12:12	seangrove	cemerick: Also, while you're around, this patch look like the right way for cljsbuild to hook into analyzer warnings? http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-636
12:18	cemerick	seangrove: yeah, something like that would work, though I flinch at more dynamic vars floating around. I'd prefer to have all warnings and the result of compilation (i.e. the analysis or a string of js) bundled into a return value, but I don't know that anyone (including dnolen) has the stamina to write/review such a sweeping change at the moment.
12:18	cemerick	Also, I'd like to hear what ambrosebs and Bronsa need in this area before running full bore into anything.
12:20	seangrove	cemerick: Yeah, I suppose the iterative warning-callback approach isn't as nice as a complete datastructure with the results of the compilation at the end.
12:22	cemerick	seangrove: it goes along with the nature of things at the moment, since everything is done on a form-by-form basis, but we really want to think of compilation/analysis as a per-file (maybe per-namespace) thing.
12:23	cemerick	Just having gotten done tweaking around how the reader interacts with the analysis of ns forms, the imperativeness left a strong impression. :-)
12:32	seangrove	cemerick: Also, thank you so much for everything you've done, you're hugely responsible for cljs being usable at all
12:32	cemerick	seangrove: thanks, just hacking the underbrush I come across :-)
12:33	cemerick	Just wait 'til my stuff breaks, then you won't be so happy! ;-)
12:33	seangrove	cemerick: Oh your stuff breaks all over the place, hence my recent issues ;)
12:34	cemerick	hah, well
12:34	seangrove	One difference I've notice while in the cljs-nrepl.el vs jvm-nrepl.el envs though is that when in ns example.a in the repl, and evaulating a form in example.b's buffer, the form is evaulated in the repl in example.a, which causes plenty of problems
12:35	yeoj___	what's the proper way to wrap "new's" of class names, when it comes to java interop?
12:35	seangrove	I just switch namespaces with C-c M-n, but I often trip over this, and with the newcomers around me, they're really running into a lot of these things I've just learned to work around
12:35	yeoj___	for instance, new OutputStreamWriter(new FileOutputStream("outfilename"), "UTF-8")
12:36	seangrove	yeoj___: (OutputStreamWriter. (FileOutputStream "outfilename") "UTF-8")
12:36	seangrove	Woops, a period at the end of the FileOutputStream too
12:37	yeoj___	ahh, ok.
12:37	yeoj___	seangrove: thanks.
12:39	cemerick	seangrove: That should work, but I haven't looked into how cider sends "eval expression" operations. Feel free to open a ticket on piggieback describing the observed problem.
12:40	seangrove	cemerick: Will do, would like to start helping out a bit more on the cljsbuild/piggieback side
12:40	seangrove	cemerick: What did you do around the namespaces? I've noticed quite a few problems with them actually
12:41	cemerick	seangrove: not sure what you mean; do around namespaces where?
12:42	seangrove	You mentioned you tweaked how the reader interacts with the analysis of ns forms
12:43	cemerick	seangrove: oh, that change is still just on HEAD, hasn't been released yet
12:50	poppingtonic	hello
12:50	dnolen	cemerick: yeah I think anything major should probably wait for integration with standard analyzer and backend tools
12:51	poppingtonic	cemerick: I'm reading your book, and it's amazing. Thanks. :)
12:53	cemerick	dnolen: Yeah. Though, I will be adding a hack in cljsbuild v2 to be able to fail on different warnings based on grepping the output.
12:53	poppingtonic	how do I get pprint to work? 1.5.1
12:54	cemerick	Dirty, but I need builds to fail when there's particular classes of problems. Right now, automated deployment processes can leak out busted .js without a peep.
12:54	dnolen	cemerick: why wouldn't you just use what seangrove is working on?
12:54	cemerick	dnolen: If you decide to merge it, I'll use it. :-)
12:55	cemerick	But, that's a month out anyway. Hoping to finish cljsbuild v1.0 early Nov.
12:55	poppingtonic	cemerick: doesn't pprint work out of the box? I can't get to use it for the game-of-life example.
12:55	dnolen	cemerick: heh, we need a stop gap, I'm pretty sure seangrove's thing'll make it in.
12:56	cemerick	Then we can start ripping things up into some simpler/easier bits.
12:56	cemerick	poppingtonic: glad you're liking the book. My coauthors were instrumental. :-)
12:56	cemerick	poppingtonic: Have you done (require 'clojure.pprint), or similar?
12:57	poppingtonic	cemerick: I get this: "CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: requie in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1:1) "
12:58	cemerick	poppingtonic: you misspelled 'require'
12:58	poppingtonic	because it's a misspell :)
12:59	poppingtonic	works.
13:02	cemerick	poppingtonic: :-)
13:04	poppingtonic	cemerick: Thank you.
13:10	seangrove	ddellacosta: I wasn't really talking about the library ecosystem (I think that's a different story that'll improve on its own) re: cljs tooling challenges
13:10	ddellacosta	seangrove: sorry if I digressed. Was thinking generally about the beginner story, as you put it
13:12	seangrove	ddellacosta: Quick start guide could definitely be updated
13:12	seangrove	With a lein template, there's probably a one-liner someone could copy/paste and have a full lein cljs app running and open in their browser
13:12	seangrove	The step after that is tough though...
13:13	rads	I noticed with lein-cljsbuild 0.3.4, when I use "lein cljsbuild auto", it sometimes fails with an error and stops the process. this means I have to fire up a new JVM every time this happens. is there a way to keep it recompiling even when there's an error?
13:13	ddellacosta	yeah, I think a template is part of it
13:13	ddellacosta	^^ haha
13:13	ddellacosta	sorry, just funny timing
13:14	ddellacosta	seangrove: but yeah, don't mean to suggest it is a simple fix--was really just trying to brainstorm. Twitter maybe not best place for that.
13:14	technomancy	rads: `lein do cljsbuild auto, cljsbuild auto, cljsbuild auto, cljsbuild auto` =)
13:16	technomancy	there are a bunch more actually useful higher-order lein plugins that should exist, but I just want to write lein-ski
13:16	rads	I see, so the answer is, restarting the process is out of the scope of lein-cljsbuid?
13:17	technomancy	sorry, I haven't actually used lein-cljsbuild. ignore me. =)
13:18	cemerick	rads: that's a recent regression; use 0.3.3 until it's fixed for v1.0
13:18	poppingtonic	cemerick: the ghastly exception returns: "CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: pprint in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1:1) "
13:18	cemerick	rads: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/issues/249
13:18	cemerick	poppingtonic: you've probably switched namespaces
13:19	rads	cemerick: oh cool. I was thinking it was intentional after reading gh-234. good to hear it's not
13:19	rads	ty!
13:21	gfredericks	technomancy: how usable would leiningen be w/o maven?
13:21	gfredericks	as a "run tasks in deployment" kind of tool
13:21	technomancy	gfredericks: without aether you mean?
13:22	gfredericks	e.g., if I have all the jars for lein itself already on the machine somewhere, and ditto for the project, can I do a reasonable subset of lein things without it using maven?
13:23	justin_smith	gfredericks: no dependencies list, and manually put each jar in the classpath via resource-paths or source-paths ?
13:23	gfredericks	well the dependencies list will still be in the project.clj, but presumably no need to read it
13:23	technomancy	gfredericks: depends how deeply you're interested in mangling lein I guess?
13:24	gfredericks	technomancy: just trying to get a feel for how much work that would be to enable
13:24	justin_smith	gfredericks: then you would need to create the classpath including all those jars in some other way, right?
13:24	technomancy	gfredericks: you could (ns leiningen.core.classpath) (def get-classpath (constantly ["/some/" "/coll" "/of" "/paths"])) (ns user) (defproject ...)
13:24	technomancy	maybe
13:25	gfredericks	hmmm
13:25	gfredericks	interesting; thanks
13:26	technomancy	probably better to dump everything in :resource-paths and leave :dependencies empty though
13:28	gfredericks	ideally wouldn't have to muck with the project.clj to make this work
13:28	gfredericks	but I'm leaning toward abandoning the idea altogether
13:36	cemerick	gfredericks: what's your original pain?
13:51	dnolen	if somebody has time it would be nice to test this one on a non-Windows box - http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-637
14:01	seangrove	dnolen: I can check it out later today
14:01	dnolen	seangrove: thanks much
14:02	dobry-den	does byte-array of a single byte have an endianness (even though it can't be expressed with a single byte), or does it have no endianess.
14:03	dobry-den	nevermind. painful to read my own question. is ["a"] sorted a-z or z-a?
14:04	znDuff	dobry-den: How is it "sorted" in any sense at all?
14:04	dobry-den	znDuff: I would say it's sorted in the way it would be sorted had it one more byte of info
14:04	justin_smith	dobry-den: I don't think endianness comes into play, bytes are always signed 8 bit in the jvm no?
14:05	znDuff	...but vectors are ordered, so the sorting is user-defined.
14:05	dobry-den	yeah, the context is weird
14:05	justin_smith	it is only when you coerce a byte array into some other type that endianness is even a factor, and "a" is not a byte
14:06	dobry-den	that was me judging myself with an analogy
14:06	dobry-den	in my codebase, i decided to represent all bytes as vectors of hexstr pairs
14:06	justin_smith	ok, but 8 bit things are immune to all concerns of endianness
14:07	justin_smith	just remember to do the signed conversion
14:08	dobry-den	in my head, endianness describes a collection of 8-bit things.
14:08	justin_smith	right, but if each one is 8 bits, endianness does nothing
14:08	justin_smith	now if the question is "what is the endianness of a double when stored as a byte array" - that may be getting at what we want
14:09	justin_smith	but that is not the byte's endianness - it is the object being converted to byte
14:31	dobry-den	justin_smith: thanks. that reminded me that endianness only matters in that it describes how to interpret the bytes that represent something (when there's more more than 1 byte)
14:39	justin_smith	np
14:42	dobry-den	the eternal `util` namespace is like a function waiting room for abstractions/extractions that will probably never happen
14:44	mdrogalis	I used to think that, but on projects of bigger size, little things emerge.
14:44	mdrogalis	Simulant as a util ns.
14:44	mdrogalis	Has*
14:45	dobry-den	yeah i think a util namespace is a solid place to put some things until you can see the patterns that lead to abstractions
14:48	dobry-den	im just looking at my util namespace right now and it's starting to feel like a massive CSS file i keep telling myself im gonna refactor
14:50	dobry-den	but i think the uneasiness comes from other languages where a large file means im probably coupling things together
14:50	dobry-den	in clojure ive found it usually more trouble than it's worth to try and organize prematurely
14:51	em-dash	I started porting clojure's persistent data structures to objective-c: https://github.com/emmanuel/clojure-objc
14:51	em-dash	I conceived the effort as a start towards a full implementation of Clojure in Objective-C. My intentions were self-pedagogical, but I have some hopes that the effort will be more widely useful.
14:52	dnolen	em-dash: how will that work w/o GC? (honestly curious)
14:52	em-dash	Now I'm taking a look around and trying to get a sense of what's out there
14:52	em-dash	dnolen: reference counting
14:52	em-dash	ARC, specifically
14:53	em-dash	though, frankly, I may be completely oblivious to major issues on that front
14:53	em-dash	The underlying storage of pointers is managed by NSArray (persistent vector) & NSPointerArray (persistent hash map)
14:54	poppingtonic	I need a little help figuring out why pprint won't work. This is basically what's happening every time: https://www.refheap.com/20169
14:54	dobry-den	em-dash: i like this kind of stuff m8.
14:54	em-dash	both of which provide ARC retain/release management of their contents (when the content is objc objects)
14:54	mdrogalis	dobry-den: I hear that.
14:54	dobry-den	it's my kind of yak shaving
14:56	em-dash	dobry-den: you and me both :D
14:56	`cbp	poppingtonic: you need to call it like clojure.pprint/pprint
14:57	poppingtonic	em-dash: can you help me out?
14:57	poppingtonic	hi :)
14:57	em-dash	poppingtonic: one bit of irony is, I don't know clojure well (yet)
14:57	poppingtonic	oh, `cbp: thanks. works quite well.
14:58	`cbp	poppingtonic: or you need to require like (require '[clojure.pprint :refer [pprint]])
14:59	poppingtonic	`cbp: that's even better! I was wondering if (require x) has syntax like the (:require x) during namespace creation. Like (:require 'clojure.pprint :as pprint)
15:00	poppingtonic	em-dash: you and me both :)
15:02	`cbp	poppingtonic: they're practically the same thing
15:02	justin_smith	poppingtonic: yes it does - if you look at almost any well used clojure project on github you will see them doing that in their namespace definitions
15:02	em-dash	dnolen: re: your question about memory management/GC, I'd love to chat through what considerations one should bear in mind. I think that ARC will work for the persistent collections, but I am far from an expert there.
15:03	poppingtonic	justin_smith: Well, I have seen that pattern many times from the projects I've cloned.
15:09	em-dash	and... I've got to run for a bit...
15:28	jtoy	how would I convert BytesInputStream into a string? str and other methods I have tried dont seem to work
15:29	noonian	jtoy: i think you can use slurp
15:29	noonian	,(doc slurp_
15:29	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
15:29	noonian	,(doc slurp)
15:29	clojurebot	"([f & opts]); Opens a reader on f and reads all its contents, returning a string. See clojure.java.io/reader for a complete list of supported arguments."
15:30	justin_smith	jtoy: apply str
15:33	jtoy	slurp worked but apply str didnt work in this situation,thx
15:34	justin_smith	ok, interesting
15:34	justin_smith	maybe I was thinking of something different, I thought that had worked for me before
15:35	jtoy	justin_smith: it could be the library i am using
15:35	jtoy	that is acting differently
15:36	justin_smith	I see now I wasn't using a BytesInputStream - is that something from org.httpkit?
15:36	jtoy	justin_smith: yes, exactly
15:36	noonian	(apply str blah) would be for converting a seq of chars to a string for instance
15:36	noonian	or turning a seq of strings into a single string
15:37	justin_smith	I misremembered
15:37	justin_smith	I was using (String. bytes)
15:37	justin_smith	or, more exactly (String. bytes "UTF-8")
15:38	jtoy	justin_smith: are slurp and (String. bytes "UTF-8") equivalent here?
15:39	justin_smith	String. works for me with bytes where str and (apply slurp ...) do not- but I don't know that it would be identical to slurp
15:39	justin_smith	errr... make that (apply str ...) above, sorry
15:39	justin_smith	,(slurp (.getBytes "hello"))
15:40	clojurebot	"hello"
15:40	justin_smith	,(String. (.getBytes "hello"))
15:40	clojurebot	"hello"
15:40	justin_smith	,(str (.getBytes "hello"))
15:40	clojurebot	"[B@1f2929c"
15:40	justin_smith	,(apply str (.getBytes "hello"))
15:40	clojurebot	"104101108108111"
15:40	justin_smith	so yeah, String. and slurp seem to be doing something similar
15:43	noonian	i just like reading the word 'slurp' in my code :p
15:44	coventry	Yay, http://clojure-log.n01se.net/ is back.
15:58	dobry-den	How can you check for value equality regardless of the sequence type? (= [:a [1]] '(:a '(1)))
16:02	shoshin_	ping. i came across this snippet of code recently, i didn't understand this fully.
16:02	shoshin_	(every? identity (mapv (fn [x] (println x))[1 2 3 4 5]))
16:02	shoshin_	returns 1 2 3 4 5 false.
16:03	shoshin_	this is form (every? identity ...) used for iterating over a collection?
16:03	coventry	shoshin_: ##(nil? (println "foo"))
16:03	lazybot	⇒ foo true
16:03	hiredman	,(doc every?)
16:03	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns true if (pred x) is logical true for every x in coll, else false."
16:03	hiredman	,(doc identity)
16:03	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns its argument."
16:03	coventry	shoshin_: ##(every? odd? '(3 5 7))
16:03	lazybot	⇒ true
16:04	shoshin_	yeah. i understand what every? and identity do separately.
16:04	shoshin_	but what exactly is happening in this code here?
16:04	shoshin_	coventry, hiredman ^^ :)
16:05	coventry	println is printing out the vector elements, then returning nil, so you end up with a list of nills, passed through identity to every?, which then returns false when it hits the first nil.
16:07	shoshin_	coventry a list of nils?
16:07	coventry	,(mapv (fn [x] (println x))[1 2 3 4 5])
16:07	clojurebot	1\n2\n3\n4\n5\n[nil nil nil nil nil]
16:08	shoshin_	coventry oh. okay. got it.
16:08	shoshin_	thank you!
16:08	shoshin_	is it an effective way to iterate over a collection?
16:09	coventry	You need to be more specific. It can be.
16:10	shoshin_	coventry the collection here is a vector of URLs and the anonymous function is used to determine if they are valid URLs or not.
16:10	coventry	shoshin_: Try it and see.
16:13	sritchie	anyone here using the piggieback repl?
16:14	technomancy	~anyone
16:14	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
16:14	bitemyapp	sritchie: I see piggieback mentioned regularly.
16:16	sritchie	bitemyapp: was curious about the workflow for having a clojure + clojurescript repl up at the same time
16:19	bitemyapp	sritchie: seangrove recently got somebody rolling with such a setup, I don't think anything is stopping you from having two nrepls.
16:19	sritchie	nice
16:19	sritchie	boom
16:23	sveri	hi, i am trying to include the java recaptcha library, but i get a java.lang.ClassCastException when i run my code, i think that i use the java lib wrong in the clojure sense, can someone hint me how to do it right please? here is the code: http://pastebin.com/Xk1jQY7B
16:24	cmajor7	is "https://github.com/pauldorman/clj-ldap" the way to go with LDAP in Clojure? thx
16:28	coventry	sveri: http://clojure.org/java_interop You are trying to call a java object as if it were a clojure one. You need to learn about the . notation.
16:28	gfredericks	is it weird that sorted sets don't support nth?
16:29	sveri	coventry: ok, i will have a look at it, thank you
16:29	bitemyapp	gfredericks: no
16:31	gfredericks	bitemyapp: why is that?
16:33	bitemyapp	gfredericks: sets fall under "blind seq'ing and membership checks". nth-ness isn't meaningful and relies on the exact composition of the entire set.
16:33	bitemyapp	sets are not associative by position.
16:34	bitemyapp	so between the overly data-dependent nature of what an nth against a sorted set will get you, and that they aren't associative by position, I don't think it makes sense.
16:34	bitemyapp	It would just, no offense, lead to brittle code.
16:34	coventry	lists aren't associative by position either, are they?
16:35	bitemyapp	coventry: vectors are, but lists don't suffer from the data dependence total re-ordering of all values that sorted sets do.
16:35	technomancy	yeah, i dont buy that
16:35	bitemyapp	all your shit gets shuffled to the right if a "least" value gets added to the sorted set
16:35	gfredericks	total re-ordering?
16:35	gfredericks	oh
16:36	bitemyapp	sorry, not re-ordering. The shuffle/waterfall effect from shoving things around.
16:36	bitemyapp	lists get cons'd predictably and vectors get conj'd predictably.
16:36	bitemyapp	conjing onto the end of a vector doesn't invalidate the "nth-ness" of all preceding values.
16:37	bitemyapp	I'm less concerned with the validity of nth'ing lists, it has practical value and is less brittle than sorted set nth, but vectors are the best example.
16:37	bitemyapp	gfredericks: does my position make sense?
16:37	gfredericks	I can definitely see the distinction
16:38	coventry	Sometimes that's exactly the data dependence you'd want though. Sometimes you want to know the 5th lowest element in a set.
16:38	technomancy	it feels like an attempt to retroactively justify the behaviour though =)
16:38	gfredericks	the particular reason this has come up for me is when doing algorithms on undirected graphs, where I represent an edge as #{a b}
16:39	gfredericks	and I kept wanting to destructure the edge without caring which thing came out first
16:39	gfredericks	(let [[a b] #{1 2}] ...)
16:41	gfredericks	I somewhat understood it failing for regular sets; then it failed for sorted sets and my other eyebrow went up
16:42	stuartsierra	gfredericks: You can call `seq` on the set and then destructuring will work
16:42	gfredericks	yep
16:42	bitemyapp	technomancy: it makes perfect sense to me, I'm not bending over backwards here.
16:42	TimMc	I'm surprised it doesn't call seq automatically.
16:42	gfredericks	that's what I ended up doing
16:54	l3dx	I'm playing around with compojure and trying to fetch both a url param and the body content of the request. Here's what I got -> http://pastebin.com/wzNLSARk
16:56	l3dx	probably a newbie error
16:58	znDuff	l3dx: would you mind posting that somewhere without the ads? pastebin.com is something of an eyesore for folks not running adblock.
16:59	l3dx	znDuff: oh, I didn't know
16:59	l3dx	give me a sec
17:01	l3dx	https://gist.github.com/tskardal/c4141b519a0e591ff159
17:04	znDuff	l3dx: thanks; just a moment while I get set up to validate what I remember about compojure's destructuring syntax.
17:14	znDuff	l3dx: https://gist.github.com/charles-dyfis-net/6e7362a50e043ae7b327
17:14	znDuff	l3dx: note the :as keyword
17:15	TimMc	I've been using Clojure's PersistentHashMap from Java, and now I'm getting some bullpucky about contains? not being supported on PersistentList: https://www.refheap.com/20171
17:16	TimMc	All I did was change some internal dependencies internal to my project; is there something I should be doing to initalize Clojure?
17:18	l3dx	znDuff: ah, thanks! :)
17:19	stuartsierra	TimMc: `contains?` was never supported on PersistentList.
17:19	znDuff	l3dx: ...by the way, you can do that kind of experimenting in Light Table, if it makes the feedback loop a bit quicker. :)
17:20	stuartsierra	TimMc: Clojure 1.5 changed `contains?` to throw an exception if you try to call it on something it doesn't support, instead of returning nil.
17:20	TimMc	stuartsierra: But if I put static { RT.init(); } near the top of one of my main Java files, the error goes away.
17:21	stuartsierra	TimMc: Then I have no idea what's going on. :)
17:21	TimMc	(And RT.init() chides me for calling it.)
17:21	dnolen	nice core.logic video from tbaldridge - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHZ8iqswiCw&feature=youtu.be&a
17:21	l3dx	znDuff: I'll check it out
17:22	TimMc	stuartsierra: But to your knowledge I should just be able to use PHM and Util such?
17:22	TimMc	*and such
17:22	stuartsierra	TimMc: Theoretically yes, although those APIs are not stable across Clojure versions.
17:23	stuartsierra	TimMc: But that stack trace looks like an error in Clojure code caused by calling `contains?` on a list.
17:23	coventry	Yeah, I'm curious what file it's trying to load.
17:23	TimMc	Yeah, haven't really dug into what's going on there.
17:26	TimMc	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/clojure-1.5.1/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L5364
17:27	TimMc	(contains? @loaded-libs lib)
17:27	stuartsierra	loaded-libs is a set
17:27	TimMc	So you claim. :-P
17:27	hiredman	TimMc: you shouldn't call init, the satic init for RT will take care of that
17:28	TimMc	hiredman: It was a debugging step.
17:28	stuartsierra	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/clojure-1.5.1/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L5271-L5274
17:28	TimMc	And yet.
17:29	TimMc	I mean, it should be a set...
17:32	stuartsierra	TimMc: Check if you somehow have multiple versions of Clojure on the classpath.
17:34	rurumate	,(count (clojure.lang.Var/getThreadBindings))
17:34	clojurebot	9
17:35	rurumate	what is this, and why is it 9?
17:36	jacktasia	is there a way to convert a string (code from a file) to something that can be used by clojure.pprint/write?
17:36	coventry	jacktasia: Convert a string to a clojure datastructure? Maybe read-string is what you're after?
17:36	stuartsierra	,(doc get-thread-bindings)
17:36	clojurebot	"([]); Get a map with the Var/value pairs which is currently in effect for the current thread."
17:36	rurumate	in my repl, it's 26
17:37	jacktasia	coventry: thanks, i've tried read-string but it seems to only take the first line of the string
17:37	rurumate	,(let [afasdf 1328767658] (count (clojure.lang.Var/getThreadBindings)))
17:37	stuartsierra	rurumate: It's the set of thread-local Var bindings currently in effect. The REPL sets a bunch of thread-local bindings automatically.
17:37	clojurebot	9
17:37	gfredericks	,(->> (get-thread-bindings) (keys) (map str))
17:37	clojurebot	("#'clojure.core/err" "#'clojure.core/print-length" "#'clojure.core/out" "#<Var: --unnamed-->" "#'clojure.core/ns" ...)
17:37	stuartsierra	Tools like Leiningen and nREPL set a bunch more bindings.
17:38	TimMc	stuartsierra: Pretty darn sure.
17:38	jtoy	im trying to do some basic macros with korma, could anyone let me know what I am doing wrong: https://www.refheap.com/20172
17:39	coventry	jacktasia: It will take the first form. You could do something like ##(read-string (str "[" "(1 2 3) {4 5 6 7}" "]"))
17:39	lazybot	⇒ [(1 2 3) {4 5, 6 7}]
17:40	gfredericks	jtoy: you have feeds as a keyword in the not-macro example
17:40	gfredericks	but it'll be a symbol with your macro
17:40	gfredericks	so you should get the same error as having used (table feeds)
17:40	coventry	jacktasia: But actually, you probably want clojure.edn/read-string
17:41	pjh_	hey ben, welcome to the clojure channel
17:43	jtoy	gfredericks: I thought that might be the issue, I also tried with this but got the same error https://www.refheap.com/20172
17:45	rurumate	stuartsierra: thanks for the insight; I'm trying to make sense of the mess that (macroexpand '(go (<! c)) produces
17:45	stuartsierra	rurumate: Ha! Talk to tbaldridge.
17:48	tim_	rurumate: short answer: http://hueypetersen.com/posts/2013/08/02/the-state-machines-of-core-async/
17:48	jtoy	anyone else know what I am doing wrong with this macro definition ? https://www.refheap.com/20172
17:49	rurumate	tbaldridge: gee thanks, that's exactly what I'm brooding over!
17:49	tbaldridge	jtoy: the argument to (table ...) is a kw, not a symbol
17:50	tbaldridge	rurumate: if you want the long answer, there's about 2 hours of video on the subject here : http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLxWPHbkxjR-G-y6CVoEHOw
17:51	jtoy	tbaldridge: i tried with symbol, keyword, and passing directly in and get the same error
17:52	jtoy	(table (keyword ~ent))
17:52	dnolen	tbaldridge: nice core.logic video
17:52	rurumate	tbaldridge: that's so cool
17:52	tbaldridge	dnolen: thanks.
17:53	jtoy	the error always says it is this line : (deftable feeds)
17:56	gfredericks	jtoy: you want to convert it to a keyword at macroexpand time
17:56	gfredericks	so ~(keyword (name ent))
17:57	jacktasia	coventry: thanks clojure.edn/read-string works but it still with only the first form...and ##(read-string (str "[" "(1 2 3) {4 5 6 7}" "]")) doesn't seem to work for me
17:57	lazybot	⇒ [(1 2 3) {4 5, 6 7}]
17:57	gfredericks	jtoy: i.e., you want to insert a keyword into the code, not write code that calls the keyword function
17:58	jtoy	gfredericks: ah, i see, i need to study that more
18:00	jacktasia	conventry: or are you saying just wrap the code in []?
18:00	coventry	jacktasia: Leave off the ## prefix. That is just a way to tell lazybot to report the result of evaluation here.
18:01	mattmoss	Maybe I'm missing something obvious... but how can I "functionally bind"? What I mean is being able to do something like: (let [{:keys ids} (reduce #(assoc % %2 (str %2)) {} ids)] a)
18:01	mattmoss	But where the (str %2) is some non-trivial result.
18:01	gfredericks	jtoy: shameless plug: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/macros-clojure-west-2013
18:02	mattmoss	And that last 'a' would be a larger body, able to make use of any ident found in ids.
18:02	mattmoss	ids being a vector like: [:a :b :c]
18:11	Raynes	Ow! My back!
18:12	stuartsierra	Was there ever an answer on how to prevent Leiningen from injecting 'test'-scoped dependencies into the pom.xml it generates?
18:16	staafl	good evening
18:16	staafl	i'm solving this: http://www.4clojure.com/problem/28#prob-title
18:16	staafl	is there a concise way to check if sth is a list OR a vector
18:18	mattmoss	(or (list? x) (vector? x)
18:19	mattmoss	with closing paren
18:20	staafl	mattmoss, nothing built-in?
18:20	justin_smith	seqential? is close, but maybe not quite it
18:21	staafl	justin_smith, it seems to work nicely
18:21	staafl	that's the catch?
18:21	mattmoss	staafl: Those are all builtins. And fairly concise, I'd say. Though you could define a new function if you like: (defn list-or-vector? [x] (or (list? x) (vector? x))) and then just use (list-or-vector? x)
18:21	justin_smith	maybe java arrays and bytevectors
18:21	justin_smith	those may be also sequential?
18:21	jacktasia	coventry: thanks that worked - although now i have to strip off the extra brackets, but i can't get pprint-write to go into a variable. i thought print-str would work but doesn't
18:21	AimHere	Both lists and vectors have the java.util.List type
18:21	mattmoss	seq? or sequential? is close, but means something different, methinks
18:22	AimHere	,(seq [3 4 5])
18:22	clojurebot	(3 4 5)
18:22	AimHere	,(seq? [3 4 5])
18:22	clojurebot	false
18:22	justin_smith	staafl: acutally those are not sequential?
18:22	justin_smith	,(sequential? (into-array (range 34)))
18:22	clojurebot	false
18:23	justin_smith	,(sequential? (.getBytes "hello"))
18:23	clojurebot	false
18:23	justin_smith	those surprise me
18:23	staafl	for my purposes, sequential? will do nicely
18:23	justin_smith	but they mean sequential? does what you want
18:23	justin_smith	yeah
18:23	staafl	yeah
18:23	mattmoss	staafl: sequential? may be what you want, but you may have meant a different question than what you asked.
18:24	mattmoss	,(sequential? #{1 2 3})
18:24	clojurebot	false
18:24	staafl	mattmoss, in general it'd be nice to be able to check if something is "iterable"
18:24	justin_smith	seq
18:24	staafl	being a total newb i don't know if sequential is the proper word for it
18:24	justin_smith	err not seq
18:24	mattmoss	,(map sequential? ['(1 2 3) [1 2 3] #{1 2 3} {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} (seq 1 2 3)])
18:24	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$seq>
18:24	justin_smith	iterable would be coll?
18:25	mattmoss	,(map sequential? ['(1 2 3) [1 2 3] #{1 2 3} {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
18:25	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
18:25	mattmoss	danngit
18:25	justin_smith	(map coll? [[] '() {} #{}])
18:25	mattmoss	(map sequential? ['(1 2 3) [1 2 3] #{1 2 3} {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}])
18:25	mattmoss	,(map sequential? ['(1 2 3) [1 2 3] #{1 2 3} {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}])
18:25	clojurebot	(true true false false)
18:25	justin_smith	,(map coll? [[] '() {} #{}])
18:25	clojurebot	(true true true true)
18:25	justin_smith	coll is for things you can iterate with map etc.
18:25	justin_smith	*coll?
18:26	staafl	justin_smith, looks quite useful
18:26	staafl	and good to know, anyway for this little exercise either will do nicely
18:26	justin_smith	not quite complete though
18:26	mattmoss	staafl: Okay, yeah, "iterable" is different than "list or vector". coll? sounds close (http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/coll_q)
18:26	justin_smith	,(map identity (.getBytes "hello"))
18:26	clojurebot	(104 101 108 108 111)
18:26	justin_smith	,(coll? (.getBytes "hello"))
18:26	clojurebot	false
18:27	justin_smith	so there is something missing still to finding if you can map on something
18:27	staafl	mattmoss, i indicated the limited scope of my question :-)
18:27	staafl	btw, how do i hook into the repl startup process
18:27	staafl	i want to change the prompt
18:27	jacktasia	coventry: nvm (with-out-str) is what i was looking for
18:27	justin_smith	so what is the more general version of coll? that would also return true for a jvm array you can map over? I wonder
18:28	AimHere	,(instance? java.util.List [:a :b :c])
18:28	clojurebot	true
18:28	AimHere	,(instance? java.util.List #{:a :b :c})
18:28	clojurebot	false
18:28	stuartsierra	(try (seq x) true (catch Exception _ false)))
18:28	justin_smith	really, no way without a try/catch?
18:30	stuartsierra	`seq` is defined as a bunch of special cases for things like Java arrays, so there's no one predicate that defines what it works on.
18:30	justin_smith	good to know, thanks
18:31	stuartsierra	Some things are "sequable" but are not really collections, e.g. Strings.
18:32	justin_smith	heh, at that point, why not make namespaces and classes sequable too (just kidding lets not actually do that)
18:34	stuartsierra	If you want the gory details: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/c32511a4073edc7e7a38d47e097fb9e0c2b0a3f5/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L480
18:35	staafl	there is no reason not to consider a string a collection
18:35	staafl	a read-only collection of chars
18:35	justin_smith	a namespace is a collection of vars
18:36	justin_smith	a class is a collection of methods and fields
18:36	stuartsierra	staafl: It depends on your use case. E.g. ##(flatten [1 [2] "345"])
18:36	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 "345")
18:37	staafl	hmm
18:37	stuartsierra	justin_smith: Clojure's Namespace is essentially a map in an Atom.
18:37	dnolen	,(doc coll?)
18:37	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x implements IPersistentCollection"
18:37	justin_smith	stuartsierra: I kind of assumed that was hiding under there somewhere :)
18:38	`cbp	bitemyapp: ping
18:45	nicholas_	hey, I want to write a simple json API, writing to postgres
18:45	nicholas_	what's a good framework for that? I'm thinking of using Luminus
18:46	bitemyapp	`cbp: pong
18:46	bitemyapp	`cbp: I was discussing connection life cycle management strategies with yogthos last night, he seemed to think what I had in mind made sense.
18:46	bitemyapp	`cbp: you know the current state of things isn't thread-safe at all right?
18:47	yogthos	can confirm :P
18:47	bitemyapp	actually, you don't even need threads to cause a race condition, just one query that is slower than the next.
18:47	bitemyapp	`cbp: did you have a question/desire?
18:47	bitemyapp	I was hoping to get the connection management stuff done this weekend. (I'm still at work atm)
18:48	`cbp	bitemyapp: yeah i was gonna ask you if you had any ideas regarding the connection handling
18:49	bitemyapp	`cbp: I most certainly do. I can either outline them ahead of time or provide a report/commits after I'm done experimenting.
18:49	bitemyapp	`cbp: I want to get the test harness up, move the commented queries to their own tests, and then reproduce a race condition
18:49	bitemyapp	then start hammering out the connection stuff based on the design I have in mind.
18:50	bitemyapp	`cbp: the main change is simply that (run ...) will take two arguments instead of one - you'll pass the connection object directly. No implicits/globals.
18:50	`cbp	I'm writing some tests but nothing interacting with the db so far
18:50	bitemyapp	`cbp: just beware, I might have to make sweeping changes for testability and/or the conn mgmt stuff.
18:51	`cbp	that's ok
18:51	bitemyapp	`cbp: also, I'm refusing to do any client-side connection pooling. I don't think it's a good idea, I don't think it's a good idea for Revise/RethinkDB, and RethinkDB provides a conn pooling service to run on each client anyway.
18:51	bitemyapp	I may consider a conn reconnect/retry mechanism though.
18:51	`cbp	Oh ok
18:51	bitemyapp	something with backoff -> exponential backoff or something.
18:52	bitemyapp	or just failure after so many tries. Whatever.
18:52	bitemyapp	`cbp: langohr has something like what I am talking about where if the connection is lost it'll attempt to bring it back up.
18:54	`cbp	rdb has different kind of queries, start, continue and so on. The start queries are working. But I'll prolly wait to see what you have in mind to implement the others
18:54	`cbp	what you have in mind regarding the connections*
18:54	`cbp	since that's part of the send fn
18:55	bitemyapp	`cbp: yeah, you'll want to wait until I hammer out some of that. I'm thinking of a conn object that you pass around, possibly arbitrating query results through an agent that delivers into promises returned by the API
18:56	bitemyapp	`cbp: queries and their results are matched by the unique number associated with the protobuf message and dissoc'd out of the "on-deck" hash-map associated with the connection object
18:56	bitemyapp	`cbp: "parallelization" insofar as that's a thing basically just means firing up more connections with can be m-n mapped through the pooling servers RethinkDB provides.
18:56	bitemyapp	the agents aren't a guarantee, it's just an idea.
18:56	staafl	,(map char (range (int \a) (int \d)))
18:56	clojurebot	(\a \b \c)
18:56	staafl	how do I turn this into "abc"?
18:57	bitemyapp	staafl: (apply str ...)
18:57	staafl	bitemyapp, neat, thanks
18:57	bitemyapp	`cbp: a while loop and a dedicated thread are equally as possible as an agent. NO SINGLETONS THOUGH.
18:58	staafl	any way to create an operator section with the first operator
18:58	staafl	being on the left
18:58	staafl	I mean, something like (partial > 0) is misleading
18:59	bitemyapp	I want people to be able to use arbitrary databases/connections with their queries. I hate the unnecessary global singleton crap people do.
18:59	staafl	it's (0>) but looks like (>0)
18:59	bitemyapp	staafl: that's prefix notation for you.
18:59	bitemyapp	staafl: if you speak it out loud, it makes more sense.
18:59	`cbp	Yeah ofc
19:00	staafl	bitemyapp, you're right, but I don't want to risk confusing someone or myself
19:00	technomancy	staafl: with < and > in particular just think of it as args-in-increasing-order? and args-in-decreasing-order? respectively
19:00	technomancy	because they're variadic
19:01	staafl	technomancy, I don't like thinking
19:01	technomancy	this could be a problem
19:01	bitemyapp	sritchie: without necessarily wanting to confuse Scala's actual "apply" method, is there a way to do something like Clojure's apply in Scala?
19:01	staafl	i'll just use #(> 0 %1)
19:01	technomancy	or pos?
19:01	staafl	technomancy, i mean i don't like having to think :-)
19:01	staafl	or forcing others to do it
19:01	sritchie	sort of - you can call "tupled" on a function
19:02	sritchie	and it returns a version that takes one arg that's a tuple
19:02	sritchie	then you can pass the return of another func in directly
19:02	sritchie	makes composition easier
19:02	technomancy	staafl: it's part of learning lisp
19:02	technomancy	staafl: everyone who knows clojure already reads it that way
19:04	`cbp	bitemyapp: good stuff. Let me know if you need any help understanding the smoke signals you need to send to rdb for it to accept a connection
19:04	bitemyapp	`cbp: dude, I tackled that nonsense when I first started Revise.
19:04	bitemyapp	`cbp: I hate that.
19:04	bitemyapp	`cbp: hopefully I don't need to bug you. Thanks :)
19:04	`cbp	bitemyapp: yeah they also changed it since last time hah
19:05	`cbp	They like to make backward incompatible changes
19:05	bitemyapp	sritchie: well, tupled is fine, but can the arguments just be Object typed?
19:05	staafl	,(filter Character/isUpperCase "aAaA")
19:05	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: isUpperCase in class java.lang.Character, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
19:05	staafl	some help with the syntax here
19:05	sritchie	bitemyapp: nope, not that I know of
19:05	sritchie	those patterns go out the window
19:06	bitemyapp	hum.
19:06	bitemyapp	sritchie: I will meditate on this. Thank you.
19:06	`cbp	The queries are fns so it should be very easy to add some preconditions or even typed clojure on them
19:07	`cbp	staafl: ##(filter Character/isUpperCase "aAaA")
19:07	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: isUpperCase in class java.lang.Character
19:07	`cbp	er ##(filter #(Character/isUpperCase %) "aAaA")
19:07	bitemyapp	`cbp: you could define a typed clojure HMap for a document coll but the database isn't going to enforce it.
19:07	lazybot	⇒ (\A \A)
19:07	bitemyapp	`cbp: clj-schema might be a better fit. Maybe.
19:07	bitemyapp	kinda almost want both.
19:08	staafl	`cbp, so the anon function is the only way?
19:08	`cbp	No i mean something like (table 1) will throw some obscure protocol buffer error
19:08	justin_smith	staafl: yeah, jvm methods are not first class functions, so you can't use them as first class values
19:09	staafl	that's unfortunate
19:09	`cbp	So that error doesn't get caught until it gets compiled into protocol buffers
19:09	technomancy	staafl: it really is =\
19:09	justin_smith	it's either we expect more than methods provide, or reduce what we can do with functions, right?
19:10	justin_smith	*what we can expect of functions
19:10	staafl	justin_smith, what do functions do that methods can't?
19:10	`cbp	So we could throw something like table expects a string, keyword or var kind of thing
19:10	justin_smith	staafl: they are objects, you can make collections of them, provide them as arguments to callable things...
19:11	staafl	justin_smith, oh, I see
19:11	staafl	I forgot the jvm doesn't have delegate types
19:12	justin_smith	which is basically what #(.method %) gets you, right?
19:13	`cbp	Although type checking the schema sounds interesting.
19:13	staafl	justin_smith, yeah. and wrapping them implicitly would have been bad for perf
19:13	staafl	it makes sense as a design decision
19:15	bitemyapp	`cbp: core.typed doesn't "enforce" anything
19:15	bitemyapp	`cbp: it's purely voluntary. If we want table to spew on bad inputs, that's clj-schema or some-such and tossing an exception at runtime.
19:15	bitemyapp	core.typed will only help the people using core.typed.
19:15	justin_smith	staafl: I am not sure, but I think even with implicit wrapping the discrepency would come up somewhere - and be more surprising because more rare
19:16	bitemyapp	although forcing an invocation of core.typed at macro-expansion time could be cute, I don't think that's wise.
19:17	`cbp	bitemyapp: I'm only mentioning it to have better error messages than what the protobuf compiler gives you when you call a query with incorrect arguments. Not so much to enforce a schema
19:17	bitemyapp	`cbp: I know, but you can use clj-schema for basic runtime type checking.
19:18	bitemyapp	simplest thing to do is (when-not (string? table-name) (throw (Exception. "fuck you man, table names are strings")))
19:20	`cbp	bitemyapp: Well I'll be writing some tests and some docs hopefully we can release a 0.1.0 this weekend eh?
19:21	`cbp	bitemyapp: thanks for your help :)
19:22	justin_smith	,(assert (string? \f) "fuck you")
19:22	clojurebot	#<AssertionError java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: fuck you\n(string? \f)>
19:22	justin_smith	maybe easier?
19:24	bordatoue	could anyone tell me how overloading is handled in clojure, for example if I want to call indexOf(char ), how would i do it in clojure (.indexOf "ABCD" \A) seems to refers to indexOf(String)
19:25	hlship	So I noticed that type hints on method parameters for protocols
19:25	hlship	do not trickle down to the extend
19:26	justin_smith	bordatoue: what would the working java implementation look like?
19:26	hlship	(defprotocol Writer
19:26	hlship	"May receive strings, which printed, or stored."
19:26	hlship	(write [this s] "Writes the string to the Writer."))
19:26	hlship	(extend-protocol Writer
19:26	hlship	;; Appendable is implemented by StringBuilder and PrintWriter.
19:26	hlship	Appendable
19:26	hlship	(write [this ^CharSequence s] (.append this s)))
19:26	hlship
19:26	noonian	bordatoue: overloading by number of arguments is the only way to do it with basic functions, if you want to dispatch on type then you need to use protocols
19:26	hlship	I'd rather have the ^CharSequence type hint up in the defprotocol
19:27	bordatoue	so how would you call IndexOf(char) in clojure ?
19:27	hlship	but that generated reflection warnings inside the extend-protocol
19:27	bordatoue	using java interop
19:27	`cbp	bordatoue: can you provide a java example? It's pretty much the same thing in clojure
19:28	noonian	bordatoue: (.indexOf "foobar" \b)
19:28	noonian	,(.indexOf "foobar" \b)
19:28	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: indexOf for class java.lang.String>
19:28	noonian	hmm
19:29	justin_smith	noonian: I tried that too, that's why I was asking what the working java invocation looked like
19:29	`cbp	bordatoue: im looking here http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/String.html and theres no indexOf(char ..)
19:29	dnolen	hlship: not possible, I doubt something like that would be
19:30	bitemyapp	`cbp: yep, I'd like that.
19:30	justin_smith	,(.indexOf "ABCD" (int \A))
19:30	clojurebot	0
19:30	bitemyapp	A release this weekend would be glorious.
19:30	bordatoue	I am just trying to figure how clojure would decide which method to call if it is overloaded with different parameter type
19:30	justin_smith	notice the docs say int!
19:30	hlship	really, not possible? Seems like you could capture the type hint meta data from the method decl in the defrecord, and "apply" it inside the extend. The trick would be to handle conflict.
19:30	justin_smith	,(.indexOf "ABCD" (int \C))
19:30	clojurebot	2
19:30	noonian	ah
19:30	noonian	must cast it to an int
19:30	justin_smith	bordatoue: answer above, cast to int
19:30	hlship	e.g., what happens if the extend changes its mind and applies its own type hint.
19:30	bordatoue	justin_smith: ok, thanks .. is it because char are actually int
19:30	bitemyapp	justin_smith: even better.
19:30	justin_smith	javadoc clearly shows the arg is an int
19:30	hlship	but that could be resolved by having the local type hint merge with the protocol-supplied type hint
19:30	bitemyapp	I should make a macro for "fuck you" assertions.
19:31	hlship	anyway, why do you think it is impossible, rather than not implemented?
19:31	hlship	BTW, have you been in Portland, OR lately? 'cause I saw your dopplerganger recently.
19:32	noonian	me too...
19:32	justin_smith	SMALL WORLD
19:32	noonian	lol
19:32	`cbp	bitemyapp: also let me know if you think the responses are parsed acceptably. Dunno if you've tried that stuff yet
19:32	justin_smith	hlship: oh, now I realize who you are
19:32	hlship	is that a good thing or a bad thing?
19:33	dnolen	hlship: what I mean is that seems to go against the grain, specifying a type hint at the protocol level.
19:33	hlship	I do make it difficult with my bizarre handle, "hlship"
19:33	dnolen	hlship: type hints are only about performance
19:33	bordatoue	does typing \A resove to an int in clojurexb
19:33	justin_smith	hlship: we hung out after the last pjug :)
19:33	noonian	,(type \A)
19:33	clojurebot	java.lang.Character
19:33	hlship	dnolen: to me, it means that each implementation of the protocol may duplicate the type hint.
19:34	bitemyapp	`cbp: not yet, been hammocking the connection stuff.
19:34	bitemyapp	I'll surely let you know when I expand the test cases.
19:34	bordatoue	so in java 'A' is resolved to int, while in clojure it is not resolved to int
19:34	dnolen	hlship: protocols aren't primarily a interop feature, type-hinting is all about interop, and in a pretty gross way
19:34	`cbp	bitemyapp: okies well ill stop bothering you now
19:34	dnolen	avoiding reflection
19:35	hlship	ah, so it's about priorities.
19:35	hlship	I see avoiding reflection as a high priority, especially in code to be reused.
19:35	bitemyapp	`cbp: it's no problem at all. I'll be able to start poking things tonight (FRIDAY FRIDAY FRIDAY FRIDAY FRIDAY) :)
19:35	bitemyapp	`cbp: for now, back to tuning the JVM.
19:35	noonian	bordatoue: i think it's because \H in clojure is a java Character, not a primitive java char
19:35	dnolen	hlship: but it's a host-y thing. avoiding reflection is completely irrelevant for ClojureScript for example.
19:36	hlship	You see that in Tapestry, where I've gone to some herculean efforts to avoid runtime reflection with tons of bytecode generation (at runtime)
19:36	dnolen	hlship: in anycase, I don't see this idea going anywhere.
19:36	hlship	I like runtime bytecode when you know what all the types are ...
19:36	hlship	yep, I'll let it go
19:36	hlship	but I do tend to define protocols as much as for "taming" interop as for anything else
19:38	hlship	justin_smith: Yep, I just barely made my bus that night. I'm trying to make it back out for some Clojure, Java, Functional users groups, but its been hard. Everyone at home has this nasty cold, and our nanny broke her ankle and caught the flu.
19:38	hlship	When I see people doing amazing things in code lately, my first reaction is "that person has no kids"
19:38	justin_smith	you mentioned
19:38	bitemyapp	hlship: do you want counter examples, or do you need to believe that?
19:38	noonian	hlship: lol
19:39	hlship	Just let me believe it.
19:40	bitemyapp	hlship: okay. I'm here if you ever decide being inspired to greater things is more valuable than embracing pillow-topped failure.
19:40	hlship	My 3.5 yo demands a lot of attention, and my 9 month-old has a burning need to be held while awake and often while asleep
19:40	bitemyapp	hlship: do you swaddle the 9 m/o?
19:40	bitemyapp	especially for sleep?
19:40	hlship	she's actually a great sleeper
19:41	hlship	we swaddled when she was younger
19:41	hlship	now she gets out of them, even the velcro ones, just like big brother
19:41	noonian	i'm thankful i don't even know what 'swaddling' means :p
19:42	bitemyapp	noonian: you should be wondering why a 25 year old single young man knows.
19:43	wink	I never heard that word either
19:44	bitemyapp	noonian: wink: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaddling boom, knowledge bomb.
19:44	bitemyapp	Works great on kids that really want to be held.
19:44	wink	yeah, I looked it up already
19:44	noonian	noooo!
19:44	bitemyapp	noonian: don't be such a baby :)
19:44	noonian	now I know what it means as a 24 year old single young man... :(
19:44	xuser
19:47	`cbp	:-O I thought bitemyapp was older
19:48	benkay	here's to having kids while you still have the energy to chase 'em
19:48	bitemyapp	`cbp: I started working at 18, dropout. Started coding before that.
19:51	benkay	(another thing to keep in mind about kids is that the fraction of your income they demand is likely constant no matter when you have 'em, and seeing as the integral of their cost is going to be a function of your income...
19:51	benkay	...sooner will be cheaper)
19:52	hlship	Oops. Missed that memo. Had first kid at 46.
19:52	rasmusto	having derivatives is an integral part of a healthy life
19:52	hlship	No wait, I was 44.
19:52	bitemyapp	Area under the curve of the cost of kids.
19:52	hlship	Still, late start.
19:52	bitemyapp	benkay: couldn't you just like, raise them as if they were living in a third world country?
19:53	bitemyapp	then the percentage drops.
19:53	znDuff	Hmm.
19:53	benkay	even kids get on the hedonic treadmill, bitemyapp.
19:53	hlship	True, but your income tends to increase over time and your ability to (for example) control your emotions in the face of unreasoning 3 year old tantrums and contents of wills is quite valuable.
19:53	benkay	keeping up with itty-bitty joneses.
19:53	bitemyapp	benkay: yeah but the paycheck isn't theirs to spend.
19:54	benkay	there are two camps of parenting: a - that having kids makes adults, and b - that only adults should make kids
19:54	bitemyapp	I'm not in either camp.
19:54	hlship	Probably early 30's is better than 40's, but I wouldn't want to do this in 20's. I know I wasn't adult enough then. Not now, either, but I can fake it better.
19:54	benkay	(obviously it's a spectrum)
19:55	noonian	either way, if you never want to grow up - don't have kids
19:56	bitemyapp	what if you want to spread your genetic material but don't find kids interesting in their own right?
19:56	bitemyapp	become a conquering barbarian?
19:56	benkay	introduce yourself to the pickup community?
19:57	bitemyapp	Ick.
19:57	znDuff	(currently starting with a new tutoring student)
19:57	bitemyapp	benkay: I mean more in the sense of absentee parenting.
19:57	bitemyapp	znDuff: I've always found tutoring very rewarding.
19:58	znDuff	bitemyapp: nod. Last time I was seriously devoted to it, though, I had a job I hated. Harder to balance today.
19:59	benkay	bitemyapp: should be easy. find someone who wants to raise your spawn for you
19:59	bitemyapp	benkay: a stay at home parent?
19:59	benkay	but i gotta wonder why even bother
19:59	benkay	why expend the resources if you don't care about kids in the first place?
20:00	bitemyapp	benkay: what could possibly be more hilarious than creating a bunch of people that are half-me?
20:00	bitemyapp	I could bring about the apocalypse if I made enough of them.
20:00	benkay	i guess if that's your preferred capex model go for it
20:01	benkay	if i were just burning dollars for the sake of it i'd spend it on elaborate masquerade balls
20:01	benkay	or trolling silicon valley
20:01	benkay	i do have visions of teaching mine javascript and css at a young age
20:02	benkay	tdd etc
20:02	benkay	offering them the staggering sum of 20/hr to work for me
20:02	hlship	Are protocol methods and rest arguments not compatible?
20:05	noonian	hlship: i don't think so, googling shows threads from 2011 about it not being supported so probably not unless there's been a change
20:06	bitemyapp	benkay: there is that too.
20:07	benkay	bitemyapp: i mean, whatever happened to the grand tradition of training one's offspring in the fine arts of one's business?
20:07	benkay	ones'
20:07	noonian	i'm pretty sure logic and programming will be part of the core curriculum by the time any of my future offspring would be old enough to start school
20:08	znDuff	noonian: doesn't mean it's going to be taught properly.
20:08	noonian	znDuff: thats true
20:08	bitemyapp	noonian: yeah I don't trust those people. I'd rather raise my own FP uber-henchpeople.
20:09	bitemyapp	then I'll name them all Alexandra and Alexander so I can never get their names wrong.
20:09	noonian	lol
20:10	noonian	if i had 2 kids iraise each of them totally differently
20:10	bitemyapp	it is galling how many times I make a minor change to an upstart init config and I end up facepalming at my own stupidity.
20:11	bitemyapp	Can I get type-checked init configs?
20:11	bitemyapp	yeesh.
20:11	technomancy	uuuuugh upstart
20:11	bitemyapp	I mean, I've got some fairly stable configs that are in version control, but god help me if I need to do something slightly different.
20:11	bitemyapp	technomancy: remind me why these people feel the need to make their own daemons for everything?
20:12	technomancy	I dont even
20:12	znDuff	...hell, will take anything over SysV init
20:13	technomancy	systemd terrifies me
20:13	bitemyapp	znDuff: I didn't like sys v either, I used to flirt with BSD for that reason.
20:13	lando23	hi there guys. i'm new to clojure and trying to solve a little synthetic problem. i'm a bit stuck was wondering if i could ask some questions.
20:13	bitemyapp	technomancy: I don't know a lot about it - what terrifies you about it?
20:14	technomancy	bitemyapp: binary logging format? from the mind that brought you pulseaudio and is out to prove how smart he is? what could go wrong
20:14	noonian	lando23: go for it
20:14	bitemyapp	technomancy: oh GOD
20:14	bitemyapp	both of those reasons are horrifying.
20:15	lando23	the problem is that i have a list that looks like [2 10 10 1 2 3] with the interpretation that the first number denotes the number of players N, the next N numbers are the players score, and the numbers after that are score changes to each player in turn.
20:15	technomancy	the problem is he actually is really clever
20:15	bitemyapp	somehow I'm not surprised systemd is popular in Arch-land.
20:15	technomancy	so he sorta gets away with it
20:15	bitemyapp	Those people always seemed kinda impractical.
20:15	technomancy	yeah, there is a definite neophilia in arch-land
20:16	technomancy	fedora people should know better though
20:16	lando23	i've started with lein repl and (def input [2 10 10 1 2 3])
20:16	averell	at least pulseaudio is not the default there...
20:16	lando23	next i defined a function to get the number of players: (defn numPlayers [input] (take 1 input))
20:17	lando23	next i defined a function to get the initial scores: (defn scores [input] (take (numPlayers input) (rest input)))
20:17	technomancy	averell: well it took like four years, but pulse is actually very stable now.
20:18	lando23	at this point i'm totally stuck. it feels like a reduction problem.
20:18	technomancy	but I don't have to write pulseaudio scripts to launch music programs, so all that complexity isn't as problematic as it is with systemd
20:18	bitemyapp	technomancy: does Heroku use Ubuntu on AWS?
20:18	technomancy	bitemyapp: yeah, with chef =\
20:18	bitemyapp	lolchef.
20:18	technomancy	for things that can't be self-hosted
20:19	znDuff	technomancy: shrug. With my ops hat on, a lot of the functionality there is hugely sensible and long-overdue -- particularly the launch-on-demand containers and such.
20:19	noonian	lando23: if i were you i would make my scores function take a map instead of a vector so you don't have to keep track of all that by convention
20:19	bitemyapp	technomancy: at least Ubuntu insulates you from the craziness of Arch.
20:19	lando23	noonian: thanks, any pointers appreciated. I'm a professional programmer learning clojure in my free time.
20:19	technomancy	bitemyapp: people don't use arch when money is on the line
20:19	noonian	{:num-players 4, :scores [1 0 4 9], ...}
20:19	bitemyapp	technomancy: I've said as much to Arch users before and they got really cranky.
20:19	bitemyapp	if I can't get my laptop's wireless to work on Arch, why would I deploy a server on it??
20:19	lazybot	bitemyapp: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
20:20	bitemyapp	sigh.
20:20	noonian	or {:players [{:score 4, ...}]}
20:20	technomancy	bitemyapp: job security
20:20	znDuff	technomancy: once, in my younger/more foolish days, I was part of an organization that ran Gentoo in production.
20:20	znDuff	technomancy: Including Oracle on Gentoo.
20:20	technomancy	whoa
20:20	znDuff	...including support for RAC clusters.
20:20	lando23	i'm trying to assume that my input is constrained to a vector - and perhaps produce that map
20:21	lando23	i can use destructuring for num-players but the rest is tricky
20:21	znDuff	technomancy: ...Oracle's support contracts, incidentally, _do_ continue to operate even on platforms they don't support -- they just try as hard as they can to demonstrate things to be the platform's fault.
20:21	noonian	if you really want to take a flat vector as args, i'd make a seperate function that just converts that to the map
20:22	technomancy	znDuff: as if using oracle on a supported platform wasn't bad enough
20:22	lando23	noonian: okay, but then how do i iterate over the inputs and modify the starting score?
20:22	bitemyapp	znDuff: that's insane.
20:23	noonian	(let [[num-players & rest-args] args, scores (take num-players rest-args), other-args (drop num-players rest-args)] ...)
20:23	noonian	lando23: you shoulnd't have to modify anything if you're making your game functionallty
20:23	znDuff	technomancy: Indeed. One of our major investors insisted.
20:23	znDuff	(on Oracle, that is)
20:23	lando23	when i say 'modify' i mean 'produce a new value' :)
20:24	noonian	if you really want to modify stuff and treat your games world as a mutable structure then i would suggest sticking the whole thing into an atom and use swap! to update it
20:24	noonian	ah
20:24	znDuff	...why in the world they'd insist on software costs dwarfing our hardware costs I still don't understand, but... eh.
20:24	lando23	no i really want to learn immutable functional programming
20:24	noonian	thats why a map would be way easier
20:24	noonian	assoc is meant for that
20:25	technomancy	lando23: (let [[n & r] input] scores (take n r) changes (drop n r)] ....)
20:26	technomancy	there's probably a way to destructure take and drop together in one line
20:26	noonian	lando23: why do you want the input to be constrained to be a vector?
20:26	lando23	thanks. but i'm still not sure how to model the central problem of iterating over the score changes and create new scores that reflect the changes
20:26	technomancy	lando23: if you're constrained in your input you shouldn't let that constrain your internal representation
20:26	lando23	i was thinking of adding string parsing and command line support later on. also, it's the simplest possible representation.
20:27	noonian	lando23: you're game will probably be a recursive function, and each time it make the recursive call you would pass in a slightly different vector or map as the input
20:27	noonian	lando23: also, those variables could be entirely seperate parameters which would probably make the code simler
20:27	noonian	simpler*
20:30	noonian	if you just took a vector maps as the input where each map represents a player i think it would be much easier to reason about, num-players is just (count players)
20:31	lando23	vector maps?
20:32	lando23	this gets to the thing that's hurting me i think: my fingers ache to define types for the players, but how do you define data structures in clojure? is it all just maps and vectors?
20:33	technomancy	clean code is all just maps and vectors, yes
20:33	technomancy	fast code sometimes is more
20:33	noonian	lando23: for the most part, you could write a function called 'player' for instance, that takes an initial score or w/e and returns a map of {:score score, ...}
20:34	lando23	conceptually I see it as some sort of reduce function that initializes on the first N+1 elements, and then proceeds to produce a new game state for each score change.
20:34	noonian	what do you mean initializes?
20:35	lando23	the game has a variable number of players with variable starting scores
20:35	noonian	i would just take a vector of players as an argument, or a map with a :players key
20:36	noonian	then just write an initialize fn that takes the values from your ui, or serialized state, or however initial values are determinied, and creates that vector or players and then pass that result to your game when you start it
20:36	lando23	perhaps i need a higher order function that initializes a game function
20:41	noonian	here's an example that just increments every players score each round, it would never terminate so your game logic should do more than this like printing to the screen and updating the state based on user input or w/e: https://www.refheap.com/20175
20:42	noonian	excuse the poor indentation, tabbing is different on refheap than what i'm used to
20:44	noonian	players would be something like [{:name "player0", :score 3}, {:name "player1", :score 17}]
20:44	lando23	thanks noonian. a) didn't know about ref heap, b) didn't know about update-in, c) thanks
20:44	noonian	yeah, no problem
20:45	noonian	instead of update-in in that example you could also do (assoc player :score (inc (:score player)))
20:46	noonian	update-in gets really nice when you need to update maps within maps
20:49	lando23	is there a difference between ref heap and gist?
20:49	noonian	refheap is written in clojure :p
20:49	Raynes	Every single thing is different about them.
20:49	Raynes	They're written by different people in different languages with different designs at different domains...
20:50	Raynes	Refheap is to gist as oranges are to apples.
20:50	noonian	^ wrote refheap
20:50	Raynes	Yeah, I'm a pretty big fan of oranges.
20:50	lando23	:)
20:53	lando23	so noonian your code doesn't quite capture my intent. it looks like your code will only increment a score by one - i would like to increment a score by a variable amount. also, i notice that you define 2 functions but never invoke them.
20:53	lando23	it's not clear to me where the scoring input would go
20:55	lando23	i think the function i want is one that advances state - perhaps with two numbers, a player index and a core - and then returns a new state
20:55	lando23	then the problem devolves into successive application of that function - in a reduce
20:55	lando23	score, not core
20:57	lando23	something like (update-in (players active-player-index) [:score] (+ score))
20:57	lando23	where active-player-index and score are the parms
20:59	noonian	1 sec, working on a more in-depth example
20:59	lando23	(defn game [players]
21:00	lando23	(if (empty? players)
21:00	lando23	true ; exit game
21:00	lando23	(let [players-with-new-state (game-logic players)]
21:00	lando23	(recur players-with-new-state))))
21:00	lando23	that recur will loop back to 'game' right?
21:01	noonian	yes
21:01	lando23	also i'm sensing that dashes are used instead of camel case in clojure :
21:02	noonian	here's a more complete example that is meant to terminate, but is still untested: https://www.refheap.com/20177
21:02	noonian	yes, thats true
21:03	noonian	you can give any number of arguments to your "modify" function in update-in
21:04	Foxboron	"Clojure isnt a real LISP!" "Why?" "It dosn't got a real debugger!" sighs
21:04	noonian	also, i forgot to implement amount-to-increase-score heh
21:09	lando23	doseq! aha
21:10	lando23	can you explain the indentation convention? i'm a little confused about what governs that
21:10	lando23	and what is ->
21:13	noonian	-> is awesome
21:14	noonian	the indentation is messed up on those refheaps, heres a pretty good style guide for Clojure: https://github.com/bbatsov/clojure-style-guide
21:15	noonian	,(doc ->)
21:15	clojurebot	"([x] [x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
21:16	noonian	not a great doc string, but it feeds the value of the initial expression as the first argument to the next expression recursively
21:20	lando23	Raynes: ref heap is using hard tabs, contradicting the style guide. FYI
21:22	technomancy	~guards
21:22	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
21:23	lando23	noonian: thanks
21:24	noonian	lando23: oops, because i used the threading macro '->' i shouldn't have left player there as the first argument to update-in since the threading macro would be putting that there for me
21:24	noonian	welcome
21:25	lando23	i always like to use things in the "simplest way that will work", and came up with this: (+ 1 2 (-> 3)) much to my surprise, it evaluated to 6, what I expected! yay
21:25	noonian	heh, you don't need (-> 3) there
21:26	noonian	(-> 3) gets re-written by the macro to be 3
21:26	lando23	ho
21:26	lando23	oh
21:26	noonian	+ takes any number of args
21:26	seangrove	(-> (+ 3 4) (* 7) -)
21:26	lando23	so what is the simplest use of ->
21:26	seangrove	,(-> (+ 3 4) (* 7) -)
21:26	clojurebot	-49
21:27	lando23	,(-> (+ 2 4) (* 7) -)
21:27	clojurebot	-42
21:27	noonian	(-> {} (assoc :foo 5) (assoc :bar "bar"))
21:27	noonian	,(-> {} (assoc :foo 5) (assoc :bar "bar"))
21:27	clojurebot	{:bar "bar", :foo 5}
21:27	lando23	i like that example
21:27	noonian	although you can do it all in 1 assoc
21:27	lando23	it reads like "successive application"
21:27	noonian	you mainly need it when you are nesting a bunch of forms
21:28	noonian	it will clean that up and take up less horizontal space
21:28	lando23	wait i have to try and hack the clojurebot
21:28	lando23	,(quit)
21:28	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: quit in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
21:28	lando23	oh well :
21:28	lando23	,(doc ->)
21:28	clojurebot	"([x] [x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
21:29	lando23	,(assoc {} :a 2)
21:29	clojurebot	{:a 2}
21:29	noonian	,(-> 5 inc (* 4 (+ 2 7)))
21:29	clojurebot	216
21:29	noonian	,(-> 5 inc (* 4) (+ 2 7))
21:29	clojurebot	33
21:30	lando23	,(5 inc)
21:30	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
21:30	noonian	it turns inc into (inc)
21:30	lando23	so the arrow kind of switches the function and it's argument
21:30	noonian	that last expression is the same as (+ (* (inc 5) 4) 2 7)
21:31	noonian	,(+ (* (inc 5) 4) 2 7)
21:31	clojurebot	33
21:31	lando23	,(-> 5 inc 2
21:31	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
21:31	lando23	(-> 5 inc 2)
21:31	nightfly	,(-> 5 (inc 2))
21:31	clojurebot	#<CompilerException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$inc, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
21:31	noonian	that will turn into (2 6)
21:31	nightfly	,(-> 5 (inc))
21:31	clojurebot	6
21:31	nightfly	,(-> 5 inc)
21:31	clojurebot	6
21:31	nightfly	,(-> 5 inc inc inc inc inc inc inc inc)
21:31	clojurebot	13
21:32	gfredericks	,(reduce #(%2 %1) 1 (repeat 1000000 inc))
21:32	clojurebot	1000001
21:32	lando23	,(inc (inc(inc(inc 5))))
21:32	clojurebot	9
21:32	gfredericks	I have a hard time imagining that I just made clojurebot do a million things
21:32	nightfly	,(reduce #(%2 %1) 1 (repeat 1000000000 inc))
21:32	gfredericks	and also clojurebot is probably thousands of miles away from me
21:32	technomancy	, (macroexpand-1 '(-> 1 inc inc)) ; macroexpand is your friend
21:32	clojurebot	(clojure.core/-> (clojure.core/-> 1 inc) inc)
21:32	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
21:33	lando23	,(doall(print "what the heck is this anyway?") (reduce #(%2 %1)))
21:33	clojurebot	what the heck is this anyway?#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$reduce>
21:33	gfredericks	technomancy: macroexpand is your acquaintance; a friend would make the code look a bit saner
21:34	lando23	thanks for the help noonian. i'll no doubt be around again.
21:34	noonian	lando23: #(+ % 10) is syntactic sugar for (fn [x] (+ x 10)), its reader syntax for an anonymous function
21:34	lando23	clojure is just so....strange
21:34	noonian	lol
21:34	noonian	for sure, take care
21:34	lando23	so the percent sign is a placeholder
21:35	noonian	yeah
21:35	noonian	i think you can do %1 and %2 also but i hardly ever use that syntax
21:35	gfredericks	you can
21:35	gfredericks	and %&
21:35	lando23	#() is easily confused with #{} :/
21:35	gfredericks	lando23: # signals some sort of special syntax
21:35	gfredericks	it's used in a variety of ways
21:35	lando23	doesn't it denote a hashmap?
21:35	gfredericks	with curly braces, yes
21:36	noonian	#{1 3 4} is a literal for a set
21:36	noonian	(set 1 2 3)
21:36	gfredericks	oh right of course
21:36	noonian	er, (set [1 2 3])
21:36	lando23	ha. well enjoy. cya
21:39	iguano	http://www.theweeklypay.com/index.php?share=19844/
21:40	mtp	i prefer not to
22:10	bitemyapp	sritchie: can you make your own data type literals in Scala? I know of the prebaked ones. How flexible is it?
22:13	bitemyapp	sritchie: more saliently, can I make stuff that looks like reader macros?
22:16	sritchie	bitemyapp: for the first one, do you mean algebraic data types?
22:18	sritchie	bitemyapp: Scala 2.10 does have this, I think
22:18	sritchie	check out the string interpolation macro stuff:
22:18	sritchie	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15329027/string-interpolation-and-macro-how-to-get-the-stringcontext-and-expression-loca
22:18	ticking	\n
22:20	bitemyapp	muh-lud macros in Scala are scurry.
22:20	justin_smith	clojure reader macros and string interpolation macros look like totally different things
22:23	bitemyapp	sritchie: can I embed a Scala REPL that I can connect to into a running Scala service?
22:27	bitemyapp	Seeing some stuff like: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12630018/scala-initialize-repl-environment - but nothing like nrepl so far.
22:28	sritchie	bitemyapp: I don't think that's possible as of now
22:28	sritchie	nor do I know how to do it -
22:29	sritchie	since the repl is maintaining an environment of type information as well as evaluated code, so it gets pretty confusing
22:29	bitemyapp	sritchie: yeah I found the interpret + type information stuff hella confusing.
22:30	sritchie	the forms are just nesting deeper and deeper
22:30	bitemyapp	sritchie: would a resident compiler with runtime bytecode execution lead to something easier to understand?
22:31	sritchie	oh man, who knows...
22:31	sritchie	at that point, I just fire up a clojure repl
22:33	bitemyapp	sritchie: the point isn't the REPL, the point is that I'm used to being able to plunge my hands into the guts of my applications ala Clojure embedded nREPL, Common Lisp, and Erlang.
22:33	sritchie	yes, of course
22:33	bitemyapp	I don't regard logging as being "good enough", even if I do it anyway.
22:33	sritchie	I've just let those desires die as I work more with Scala
22:34	bitemyapp	hum. Guess I'll just have to hope people adopt core.typed.
22:34	sritchie	that's my plan, anyway
22:35	bitemyapp	sritchie: you're hoping to use more Clojure?
22:35	sritchie	bitemyapp: yes, I'll be releasing Cascalog 2.0 this weekend, then spending more time in that codebase -
22:35	sritchie	I'm shifting my work life around to have more Clojure time
22:35	bitemyapp	oh that's exciting.
22:35	sritchie	more info on that next week
22:35	sritchie	yeah! definitely exciting
22:35	bitemyapp	I look forward to it :)
22:35	sritchie	hence this clojurescript exploration today
22:36	sritchie	core.async is awesome
22:36	sritchie	(two separate new awesome tools for me)
22:37	bitemyapp	sritchie: ambrose started on core.typed for CLJS
22:37	bitemyapp	core.typed for core.async with typed channels could be cool. (don't need to wait on CLJS for that)
22:39	sritchie	or a Cascalog core.async planner implementation that takes channels as sources and returns a new channel that "solves" for its inptuts
22:39	sritchie	inputs*
22:39	bitemyapp	Dreamy.
22:39	bitemyapp	There are some cascalog features I want in Datalog.
22:39	sritchie	oh yeah?
22:39	sritchie	not the other way around?
22:39	sritchie	looking for a good cljs repl experience, now...
22:39	bitemyapp	Datalog in Datomic is pretty spare right now.
22:40	sritchie	ah, yeah
22:40	bitemyapp	Cascalog is more featureful and completely developed.
22:41	sritchie	probably time to look more at datomic
22:41	bitemyapp	Datomic's lack of certain features has made some query patterns awkward/painful for my coworkers.
22:41	bitemyapp	er, Datalog in Datomic
22:42	justin_smith	bitemyapp: does that mean cascalog would be a better choice, or is there some other consideration like performance?
22:43	bitemyapp	justin_smith: I don't think Cascalog would know how to use the indexes.
22:43	justin_smith	I mean for me, not using either yet?
22:43	bitemyapp	they're two very different things.
22:43	bitemyapp	Datalog is a generic unification-based query language. It's somewhat...spare if you don't tack stuff on it.
22:44	sritchie	justin_smith: Cascalog is for writing Hadoop
22:44	sritchie	for now
22:44	bitemyapp	Datomic is OLTP, Cascalog is OLAP on Hadoop.
22:44	bitemyapp	two totally different workloads, but a lot of the needed query semantics overlap.
22:44	justin_smith	ok, shows how much I know, thanks
22:44	bitemyapp	Cascalog is how I stayed sane when I managed a Hadoop herd.
22:44	sritchie	justin_smith: haha, no totally reasonable question
22:45	sritchie	justin_smith: especially since Cascalog COULD have a local-only implementation,
22:45	sritchie	and probably will soon
22:46	bitemyapp	but even if it did, and it worked on the same nested vector format Datalog expects, I'm pretty sure Datalog uses special knowledge of the database indexes in Datomic.
22:46	justin_smith	my use case is a system that used to be a php orm, then moved to a rails based one, and now is translated to clojure - and I would like something more sane than orm that still allows integrating a cms to display of web pages
22:47	justin_smith	already we are not doing full fledged oo orm, but the old design still shows through in places - I was thinking some datalog implementation would help with some of our problems
22:47	bitemyapp	justin_smith: you can use straight-up datalog for that (bacwn)
22:48	bitemyapp	I've been considering writing a library for Datalog->SQL && SQL->Datalog
22:48	justin_smith	cool
22:49	justin_smith	so what is the storage backend with bacwn?
22:51	bitemyapp	justin_smith: <INSERT YOUR CODE HERE>
22:51	justin_smith	ahh, ok
22:51	justin_smith	so it just does the in-memory representation and querying, no serialization?
22:52	bitemyapp	justin_smith: https://github.com/tailrecursion/bacwn/blob/master/src/clojure/fogus/datalog/bacwn/impl/database.clj
22:52	justin_smith	hah, I have that file open right now
22:52	bitemyapp	presently, yes, but you can just make it an interface to anything you want.
22:52	justin_smith	I was just wondering if there was a hidden storage layer I was too daft to see
22:52	bitemyapp	which is why I'm considering the datalog <> SQL thingy.
22:52	bitemyapp	datalog tends to be abstracted from storage.
22:52	justin_smith	right, it's coming together
22:53	justin_smith	ok, my deploy is finally working, I'm headed home
22:53	justin_smith	see y'all around
22:53	bitemyapp	justin_smith: cheers.
23:24	iguano	http://www.theweeklypay.com/index.php?share=19844/
23:26	yedi	http://z.caudate.me/learning-angular-js-through-macros/
23:26	yedi	what do you guys think about purnam?
23:42	jared314	yedi: I wish he had samples on the purnam read me comparing normal clojurescript js interop syntax with his lib
23:42	jared314	yedi: nm, I just needed to scroll more