#clojure – 2013-10-14

2013-10-14

00:01	marco1	Anyone use the worker option in a pedestal aspect? Their example uses regex pattern objs, but I don't think edn supports #"regex"
00:07	Roxxi	cd ..
00:07	Roxxi	ls
00:07	lazybot	bin boot data dev etc proc selinux sys tmp usr
00:07	Roxxi	>.<
00:11	marco1	cd /bin
00:34	muhoo	irc shell
00:35	muhoo	~aot is Ahead Of Time compilation
00:35	clojurebot	Ok.
00:36	muhoo	~aot
00:36	clojurebot	http://i.qkme.me/3vb225.jpg
00:36	muhoo	fack
00:36	brehaut	~aot
00:36	clojurebot	http://i.qkme.me/3vb225.jpg
00:36	muhoo	ffs
00:36	brehaut	~aot
00:36	clojurebot	http://i.qkme.me/3vb225.jpg
00:36	muhoo	~aot is chese
00:36	brehaut	hah
00:36	clojurebot	Alles klar
00:36	muhoo	~aot
00:36	clojurebot	http://i.qkme.me/3vb225.jpg
00:36	muhoo	~aot is Ahead Of Time compilation
00:36	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
00:36	muhoo	-_-
00:37	brehaut	muhoo: you just have to accept that clojurebot is enterprise ready, and no one person can understand how any a feature works ;)
00:38	muhoo	it's on github somewhere, i thought
00:38	brehaut	it is
00:38	muhoo	is that factoid hardcoded or something?
00:38	brehaut	https://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/
00:38	muhoo	~hardcoded is aot
00:38	clojurebot	c'est bon!
00:38	muhoo	~hardcoded
00:38	clojurebot	hardcoded is aot
00:38	brehaut	no, its just a very complex system
00:38	muhoo	~hardcoded is not aot, says yoda
00:38	clojurebot	Ok.
00:38	brehaut	factoids are a multimap
00:39	brehaut	and theres an inference engine
00:39	brehaut	the command pipeline is also built on Arrows
00:39	brehaut	and its parser is only documented in the fnparse rules
00:40	muhoo	i actually have no idea what you're talking about
00:40	muhoo	how do you send a message to someone?
00:40	muhoo	in this bot?
00:40	muhoo	it has a store-and-forward capability IIRC
00:40	brehaut	i think thats lazybot's $mail
00:41	brehaut	just to confuse things ;)
00:42	brehaut	muhoo: http://ro-che.info/ccc/12
00:45	muhoo	wow, that is the geekiest comic i've ever seen
00:45	brehaut	pretty much yeah
00:45	brehaut	~arrows
00:45	clojurebot	arrows is http://ro-che.info/ccc/12.html
00:45	brehaut	well lol
00:46	muhoo	http://ro-che.info/ccc/21
00:46	muhoo	like... talk about a niche audience
00:46	brehaut	hah yeah
00:46	brehaut	turns out yes, applicative is now a superclass of monad
01:02	lynaghk`	hugod: ping
02:21	frozenlock	Cljs version 0.0-1909 and higher break the domina function node. :-/
02:55	logic_prog	in datomic free edition's in memory databse -- does it somehow survive machien reboots, or is all data lost when the machine reboots?
02:58	rhg135	one small question, for serversockets, i have a series of clients which arent known till runtime and isn]t mutable in a conventional sense (you can]t change it) but its not static either (it depends on who connects), is there an interface more appropriate than ISeq?
02:59	marcopolo2	rhg135: how are you going to be interacting with it?
03:00	rhg135	just loop on it with doseq and dispathing a thread on the new sockets
03:00	rhg135	since it's .accept returns a socket to the client
03:01	rhg135	and it blocks till a connection
03:01	rhg135	something like (repeatedly #(.accept this))
03:02	marcopolo2	yeah ISeq sounds fine to me
03:03	rhg135	ok
03:03	francis	logic_prog: I belive you can persist to disk with free
03:03	rhg135	i wasn't sure since it's indeterminate
03:11	marcopolo2	rhg135: well you could have it wrapped in an atom if you are going to update it's value
03:11	rhg135	i'm thinking of of having a fn that returns (repeatedly #(.accept socket)) since i see no way to implement Seqable on ServerSocket
03:11	marcopolo2	and then calling a thread on each fn?
03:12	rhg135	marcopolo2: i can]t change it (save closing the socket) from the server, only who connects, and yes
03:12	rhg135	threads
03:13	marcopolo2	why do you need to do multiple accepts on the same socket?
03:13	rhg135	.accept opens a new socket
03:14	marcopolo2	ah okay
03:14	rhg135	thats how servers work, open a new socket per client
03:15	marcopolo2	I wasn't familiar with that interface
03:15	rhg135	in python i used a generator but threading is a pita and it was ugly
03:21	rhg135	here]s the code https://bitbucket.org/rhg135/jimpy/src/b9f81cf11bb736f5f48d96f8dcabbf39a9516db3/jimpy/server/utils.py?at=newserver#cl-123
03:21	rhg135	thats essentially the idea
03:22	rhg135	but id like that server on the jvm
03:23	rhg135	i don't really like python, but i started writing the client part and the jvm is too slow to start for a client-side lib
03:29	Foxboron	rhg135: i could go like "Hey! There is a LISP on python that complies down too Python AST!"
03:31	rhg135	i did try nodejs, but clojurescript failed me and when i asked here i got no help twice so i just went with python (which i used before clojure and haskell)
03:31	Foxboron	rhg135: check out Hy :)
03:31	rhg135	Foxboron: i saw it but it seemed abandoned
03:32	rhg135	oh
03:32	rhg135	Hy?
03:32	TEttinger	check out Shen then
03:32	Foxboron	rhg135: yeah Hy.https://github.com/hylang/hy
03:34	rhg135	Foxboron: the main issue i've had with python is concurrency not syntax
03:35	Foxboron	rhg135: yeah, it is a hell :/
03:35	rhg135	that said, it looks interesting
03:35	rhg135	any easy way to run a repl?
03:35	Foxboron	"Hey lets make a thread! Just gotta subclass threading.Thread, rewrite run...then..hmm..make it a deamon so it dosnt fuck up..hmm...oh bugs!" \o/
03:35	Foxboron	rhg135: pip install hy
03:35	Foxboron	hy
03:36	rhg135	and i can connect to it from, say, vim?
03:36	Foxboron	rhg135: Sadly no vim plugins yet. I'm actually suppose to be fixing that, along with a nrepl for hy D:
03:37	rhg135	yeah an nrepl'd be nice
03:37	rhg135	but no biggie
03:37	rhg135	python is worse for that
03:37	Foxboron	rhg135: it runs, compiles and works along side python code :)
03:38	Foxboron	so its awesome anyway IMO
03:38	rhg135	so it]s just a lisp dialect?
03:38	Foxboron	rhg135: yeah it is.
03:38	rhg135	any special features?
03:39	Foxboron	ayou can import hy directly into python, and vica versa
03:39	Foxboron	and macros
03:39	rhg135	hmm, macros
03:39	Foxboron	been talks about trying to implement some TCO'ish things using generators
03:39	Foxboron	but i am not sure what the status on that is
03:39	rhg135	but concurrency still would be a pita
03:40	Foxboron	rhg135: its still python :/ concurrency is a living hell.
03:40	rhg135	but anyway for the server i do want it on the jvm
03:41	rhg135	it]s looking as i have to seperate client and server
03:42	rhg135	idk, but the python vm doesnt feel as if it is meant to run a chat server
03:42	rhg135	think like freenode, but based on JIM not iRC
03:43	TEttinger	JIM?
03:43	TEttinger	jabber IM?
03:43	rhg135	JIM.HACKPAD.COM
03:43	rhg135	JIM{ JSON IM
03:43	rhg135	grr
03:43	rhg135	caps
03:44	TEttinger	rhg135, looks nice
03:45	rhg135	Nathan is writing one on nodejs
03:45	rhg135	im not sure whether to trust itll work
03:46	rhg135	for one the guy likes c++
03:47	rhg135	and my python one is broken mysteriously
03:53	rhg135	actually i do know why; it isn't launching new threads until i interrupt the main thread; again python concurrency is a pita
03:58	echo-area	Leiningen told me two checksums about an artifact, but none of which is the same as the on in the maven repo, what could be the reason?
03:59	echo-area	Could not transfer artifact XYZ from/to REPO (ADDRESS): Checksum validation failed, expected CHECKSUM1 but is CHECKSUM2
03:59	echo-area	This is the error I get
03:59	TEttinger	well they may have incorrectly hashed their file, or used the wrong checksum for the file
04:00	TEttinger	try a different version?
04:00	TEttinger	which artifact, I can check? lein dependency line?
04:00	echo-area	Of leiningen or what?
04:00	TEttinger	no, the artifact
04:00	echo-area	No, it's a private artifact here
04:00	TEttinger	oh
04:01	TEttinger	well ask whoever made it, he may have done something wrong
04:01	echo-area	And another guy tried maven, got similar warnings about checksums, but one of them at least was correct
04:02	echo-area	Okay, thanks
04:56	echo-area	Is it possible to make process of leiningen finding dependencies verbose?
04:59	hyPiRion	echo-area: you could try `DEBUG='y' lein deps :verify`
04:59	echo-area	Thanks
05:28	logic_prog	is there any implementation of frp (functional reactional programming) in clojurescript?
05:28	logic_prog	I'm not looking for a javascript wrapper, I'm looking for a clojurescript codebase to read / learn from
05:28	piranha	logic_prog: http://github.com/tailrecursion/javelin
05:29	logic_prog	ha, was just looking at it
05:29	logic_prog	be nice it was tied into dom elmenets too :-)
05:29	logic_prog	s/it/if it
05:29	piranha	logic_prog: github.com/tailrecursion/hoplon
05:29	piranha	:)
05:29	piranha	look at the 'dox' branch right now
05:29	piranha	there are some docs
05:30	logic_prog	wait what?
05:30	logic_prog	i have to read the examples
05:31	logic_prog	I don't understand https://github.com/tailrecursion/hoplon/tree/dox
05:31	logic_prog	how ishe embedding clojurecript into a web html file?
05:32	logic_prog	this is fucking insane
05:32	logic_prog	by insane I mean genius
05:32	ro_st	at bottom, it's all just text
05:33	logic_prog	https://github.com/tailrecursion/hoplon/blob/master/doc/Design.md is genius
05:33	logic_prog	who is tailrecursion?
05:34	ro_st	Alan Dipert and co
05:34	logic_prog	this person should be renamed michangelo-davinchi-raphael
08:39	maris`	why does clojure print strings from maps without quotes around them ?
08:40	maris`	(print {:s "hi"})
08:41	maris`	omg pprint does it correctly :-)
08:41	augustl	is there a way for a multimethod to have the same body for different dispatch values, other than extracting the body to a separate function?
08:42	hoeck	maris`: (prn {:a "hi"})
08:43	hoeck	maris`: print prints for human consumption, prn prints `readably` (for the clojure reader)
08:45	hoeck	augustl: you could also modify you dispatch function
09:04	mpenet	I just upgraded to the latest nrepl and it now wont launch. Anyone had issue recently?
09:04	mpenet	issues*
09:05	mpenet	jack in works but I end up in a broken repl (I also use nrepl-ac btw, I ll try without it)
10:02	CookedGr1phon	hey, I'm building an app on android and midje doesn't work properly on the device, so I want to exclude all my test files from the build which goes onto my device
10:03	CookedGr1phon	I made a separate midje profile in my project.clj
10:03	CookedGr1phon	but I can't seem to stop it trying to build the test/* folder's contents
10:03	CookedGr1phon	I have set :source-paths and test-paths appropriately, but it's still doing it. Any ideas?
10:04	mdrogalis	CookedGr1phon: Not sure, sorry. :/
10:13	CookedGr1phon	mdrogalis: very odd. I have moved them to another directory not named test/ and it works fine
10:13	mdrogalis	CookedGr1phon: Huh, interesting.
10:30	Morgawr	does anybody know of any academic papers/studies on clojure and its concurrency models? Some references I could have that aren't just Hickey's talks on youtube or clojure.org articles or random blog posts? (not that they aren't interesting, it's just that I read them all already :P )
10:35	mdrogalis	Morgawr: Maybe look up some stuff on Multiversion Concurrency Control and Snapshot Isolation? Obviously not exactly Clojure, but the underlying stuff is the same.
10:36	Morgawr	mdrogalis: yeah, thanks. I was mostly looking for Clojure-related stuff but that's certainly a good stepping stone. Gotta write a position paper about an academic study/paper I wanted to write about clojure performance and concurrency model
10:37	Morgawr	so I gotta find good excuses to present to my tutor :P
10:38	CookedGr1phon	I feel I should probably plug my colleague's new book at this point :P http://pragprog.com/book/pb7con/seven-concurrency-models-in-seven-weeks
10:39	CookedGr1phon	which should give a nice overview, and a lot of the examples are clojure based
10:44	mdrogalis	CookedGr1phon: Looks worth a read. :)
10:44	si14	lynaghk: ping
10:44	Morgawr	CookedGr1phon: will check it out ;)
11:00	scape_	Little confused by simpledateformat parsing: (.parse (java.text.SimpleDateFormat. "mmddyyyy") "04121985") ;results in #inst "1985-01-12T05:04:00.000-00:00"
11:01	scape_	(.parse (java.text.SimpleDateFormat. "yyyymmdd") "19850322") ;results in #inst "1985-01-22T05:03:00.000-00:00"
11:01	scape_	what am I doing wrong with month?
11:03	andrewmcveigh\|wo	scape_: months are usually MM
11:03	andrewmcveigh\|wo	scape_: mm = minutes
11:04	scape_	aha
11:04	scape_	thank you
11:04	andrewmcveigh\|wo	np
11:20	hardliner_	scala or clojure?
11:20	bbloom	surely you must realize that's trolling in either #scala or #clojure, right?
11:22	drguildo	does anyone have any idea what would prevent the nrepl prompt appearing when i do nrepl-jack-in?
11:23	drguildo	i've tried disabling all the hooks in my init.el but it didn't help
11:24	gfredericks	bbloom: your last night fipp idea that I just saw is quite interesting; thanks :)
11:24	AimHere	drguildo, might you have a (-main) function in your project and it's trying and failing to compile it?
11:27	RoboClaudio	Hello hello everyone!
11:27	drguildo	AimHere, i doubt it, it's done it with every project i've tested including "lein new test"
11:27	hardliner_	hello
11:27	RoboClaudio	I'm having a blast learning clojure right now, and I'd like to introduce the language to a friend of mine who is not a programmer
11:27	hardliner_	is it true that the creator of clojure is hikki?
11:27	gtrak	gfredericks: did you ever write up those macro-generating macros you were messing with somewhere?
11:27	francis	R
11:28	RoboClaudio	any recommendation for a resource? Something like "clojure for non programmers"
11:28	francis	RoboClaudio: Clojure was the first language I learned. I reccomend 4clojure
11:28	RoboClaudio	I do believe that clojure would be a good first language, this friend is smart, and he would like to contribute to my clojure projects
11:28	RoboClaudio	francis: oh great
11:29	francis	Sorry for misspelling ect. ect. Not on my native keyboard layout right now
11:29	hardliner_	francis: do you use qwerty?
11:29	francis	hardliner_: colmak
11:29	RoboClaudio	francis: you really never had any sort of C, or ruby or anything like that before? How much to you use Clojure now?
11:30	francis	RoboClaudio: I program clojure everyday
11:30	francis	RoboClaudio: I tried out other languages first, but settled on clojure. It was the first language I learned beyond some VERY basic programs.
11:31	RoboClaudio	That's very comforting. I personally use Haskell, Go and JS for work, but Clojure (with some love for core.typed) for personal stuff, and I think it's great.
11:32	francis	RoboClaudio: How do you like haskell?
11:32	RoboClaudio	francis: which sort of applications do you work on?
11:32	francis	RoboClaudio: Webapps
11:32	francis	RoboClaudio: nothing fancy
11:33	RoboClaudio	francis: I really like haskell, especially within teams. The purity and type safety make very good guards for large programs.
11:33	tbaldridge	have you tried using Clojure for "large programs" ?
11:34	RoboClaudio	francis: great, thanks so much for the feedback, you're comforting my feeling that clojure is good for beginners.
11:35	RoboClaudio	tbaldridge: I didn't have the chance, I only use Clojure within side projects, and haven't wrote anything bigger than a few thousands loc :(
11:36	endou	RoboClaudio: I feel think you can do pretty much in a few thousands loc with clojure, what's your opinion on that?
11:37	tbaldridge	RoboClaudio: it might be something to investigate. I've found that the claims of "type safety guard against poor programming" to be a fairly weak argument. In practice, I very, rarely hit problems that typing would help with.
11:38	RoboClaudio	endou: true, but working alone removes my ability to judge how it is with teams. So far I'm personally very satisfied, especially because of the readability of my programs. I don't have to go through beautifiers and the like, it's just clear.
11:38	tbaldridge	And I find that the restrictions (even) Haskell's type system put on the programmer are bit restrictive.
11:38	xeqi	tbaldridge: I like it as a set of unit tests I don't have to write
11:39	tbaldridge	xeqi: perhaps, but with Haskell, can you have the option to use these "tests" on only half your code?
11:40	pandeiro	how do i get nrepl to show eldoc-like documentation inside a clojure buffer?
11:40	RoboClaudio	tbaldridge: I understand, but I found this (& purity) to be quite helpful when I could jump in a project without spending too much time making sure I don't break everything. I'm far from being a Haskell guru but I could get up and running very fast at work
11:40	pandeiro	and how do i kill a lein repl :headless process?
11:41	xeqi	tbaldridge: Haskell's type system can affect the semantics of the program, so no
11:41	RoboClaudio	typed clojure seems to be a very good middleground between the funny language for hacking and the tough thing you can use at work
11:42	RoboClaudio	convincing my previous boss of using clojure on a project was incredibly hard
11:43	RoboClaudio	tbaldridge: do you have the chance to use clojure at work?
11:44	tbaldridge	Yes I do, and I only have a passing familiarity with Haskell, so I am biased.
11:44	tbaldridge	Perhaps someday I'll go and learn me some Haskell for great good.
11:45	RoboClaudio	haha this is the book that got me into it!
11:45	RoboClaudio	tbaldridge: did you have to convince your boss or was it a clojure shop?
11:46	scriptor	RoboClaudio: how did you convince your boss in the end?
11:46	tbaldridge	RoboClaudio: I work for Cognitect, so I was hired to work on Clojure in the first place.
11:47	bbloom	tbaldridge: surely somebody had to convince relevance back when they were predominently a rails shop ;-)
11:48	francis	RoboClaudio: Is there any reason that haskell isn't a lisp other than some ill-defined notion of readability. Or, is there anything to be gained by using syntax other than sexps?
11:48	RoboClaudio	scriptor: I lamentably failed, because of the lack of static typing and the sources of help in the local language (I live in Japan)
11:48	RoboClaudio	tbaldridge: that sounds great!
11:49	tbaldridge	bbloom: well the full story is here: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Clojure-tips Basically Stu went out looking for a language that solved his complaints with Ruby and Java.
11:49	scriptor	francis: it's a descendant of ML, so you'll have to ask why that didn't use sexp's
11:49	bbloom	tbaldridge: cool
11:50	francis	scriptor: You wouldnt happen to know the answer to that would you?
11:50	scriptor	part of the reason may be that it's heavily based on mathematical notation
11:50	RoboClaudio	scriptor was faster
11:50	ambrosebs	RoboClaudio: hopefully Typed Clojure is good ammunition for next time.
11:51	RoboClaudio	ambrosebs: I left that company since then, and I do believe it's going to be way easier with the current one.
11:52	ambrosebs	RoboClaudio: good :)
11:52	RoboClaudio	oh yeah :)
11:52	mdrogalis	ambrosebs: You should take your $30k and put it all on black.
11:52	mdrogalis	What could go wrong?
11:53	ambrosebs	mdrogalis: what does that mean?
11:54	RoboClaudio	he's probably referring to the gamble of using something as new as typed clojure
11:54	RoboClaudio	* in a corporate environment
11:54	mdrogalis	ambrosebs: A patently bad idea. 'putting it all on black' means betting all your money on a 50/50 chance in Roulette.
11:54	ambrosebs	heh
11:54	mdrogalis	RoboClaudio: Nope. Just being dumb. D:
11:54	RoboClaudio	mdrogalis: got me :p
11:54	mdrogalis	I literally meant you should gamble with it.
11:54	mdrogalis	:)
11:54	ambrosebs	you will never see me in a casino ;)
11:55	scriptor	imagine how much good one night in vegas could do for clojure
11:55	mdrogalis	I went in one once. Good God, I wanted to hand out flyers about the odds on slot machines.
11:55	mdrogalis	Do you people even know what you're doing?!
11:55	mdrogalis	Hah, scriptor
11:58	RoboClaudio	I was in a hospital last week, and as I was in emergency room, I had no access to my computer & cell phone. I wrote some clojure code on paper for some side project to kill boredom.
11:58	RoboClaudio	When I got home, I just typed my code in, and it just worked. That thing made my coworkers laugh and wonder about how cool is clojure.
11:58	mdrogalis	Your parens balanced?
11:58	RoboClaudio	F*CK YEAH
11:59	mdrogalis	Human-paredit mode.
11:59	RoboClaudio	trust me, you have time in the hospital
11:59	RoboClaudio	I had to stay in the same bed all day, couldn't even walk
11:59	RoboClaudio	well, I still can't, but now I'm at home
12:00	scriptor	I never close my parens when I'm coding on paper
12:00	scriptor	it's like a god-awful mishmash of python and lisp
12:00	RoboClaudio	coworkers tell me I could have done this with Haskell, and I wouldn't have to worry about those parens
12:00	RoboClaudio	scriptor: Aww
12:00	RoboClaudio	:)
12:02	tbaldridge	I have to admit, talks like this scare me away from Haskell http://www.infoq.com/presentations/molog It's a 30 minute talk about all the nasty hacks they had to do to get a half-working version of miniKanren. Something that's about 200 lines of scheme.
12:05	RoboClaudio	well I have to say Haskell is far from being a convenient language for everything. I'm lucky enough to have used it only in projects where it made sense
12:05	bbloom	tbaldridge: part of the problem is trying to get the logic variable hackery past the type checker
12:05	bbloom	tbaldridge: the result is very limited type checking :-/
12:05	RoboClaudio	ohh
12:06	bbloom	tbaldridge: I enjoyed the "Oleg's permission" bit. If Oleg says you can bypass the type system, then you're good!
12:07	ambrosebs	bbloom: that's gold
12:07	scriptor	can typed clojure do any sort of type inference yet?
12:08	bbloom	ambrosebs: did you see that thing about "rational types" with negative & fraction types to go along with sum & product types?
12:08	ambrosebs	bbloom: no what is that?
12:09	ambrosebs	scriptor: it never will
12:09	scriptor	gotcha
12:09	bbloom	ambrosebs: www.cs.indiana.edu/~sabry/papers/rational.pdf‎
12:10	ambrosebs	bbloom: wow!
12:10	arrdem	RoboClaudio: welcome to #clojure, where you get to lurk with library & tool developers :D
12:11	RoboClaudio	arrdem: Right, or the people making my life better.
12:11	tbaldridge	That's the nice thing about #clojure, all the cool kids hang out here.
12:11	bbloom	ambrosebs: i haven't managed to make any sense of it yet. what makes you say wow so quickly? :-P
12:11	scriptor	I think rich hickey even shows up here from time to time
12:11	ambrosebs	bbloom: it's more "wtf"!
12:11	bbloom	haha
12:12	arrdem	scriptor: Rich I think is 2nd or 3rd for all time messages sent to #clojure
12:12	ambrosebs	bbloom: what the hell is a fractional type
12:12	scriptor	interesting
12:12	ambrosebs	:)
12:12	scriptor	must've had a ton of discussion here in the olden days
12:12	arrdem	scriptor: but I haven't de-aliased for away nicks yet
12:14	bbloom	ambrosebs: i dunno but sabry is generally worth attempting to understand :-)
12:15	indigo	http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/229/a/6/rich_hickey_by_emareaf-d5bevsm.png wat
12:17	benmoss	indigo: apparently drawn with https://github.com/ema-fox/artengine
12:17	benmoss	thus the tribute
12:18	rishisadhir	Can someone let me know why (use 'seesaw.core) brings up a FileNotFoundException? All the code examples online seems to just be able to 'use it without any issues.
12:18	xeqi	does anyone know any oss projects using clj-webdriver?
12:18	indigo	Haha
12:19	clgv	rishisadhir: that definitely works if you have specified the dependencies in your project.clj correctly before you fired up the repl
12:19	rishisadhir	Thanks clgv
12:23	seangrove	xeqi: We use it for some functional tests
12:23	srruby	I'm transforming a parse tree created by instaparse. So far I've been using postwalk to "edit" the tree. I'm thinking maybe I should use refs as some of the nodes need to be pointers to other nodes. I'm also looking at zippers. Currently I've been able to do what I want with postwalk, but some of my code looks clumsy. Any advice ? Thanks, John
12:26	xeqi	seangrove: do you start a jetty server as part of your test suite to run against?
12:27	arrdem	srruby: what are you trying to get out of the parse tree?
12:27	xeqi	I've got example of doing that using clj-http and some libs that only talk http. Was hoping to find one that did it for clj-webdriver
12:28	xeqi	writing a blog entry, so collecting references
12:30	srruby	arrdem: The source is a textual dsl for music notation. I need to transform the parse tree to a similar legacy json format. There are some calculations involving assigning rhythms to beats and notes. I also need pointers in a few places.
12:37	noidi	xeqi, we're using clj-webdriver as well. we deploy the application to a production-like environment and then run the tests against it.
12:38	noidi	so there's no special test server. the end-to-end tests test server provisioning and the deployment process as well as the application itself.
12:43	Morgawr	how do I use clojure.core.reducers? I tried using (require '[clojure.core.reducers]) in my repl just to test stuff but it says "cannot find the namespace" or something like that
12:43	Morgawr	do I need to import something specific with lein? I thought they were shipped with the clojure core
12:43	Morgawr	like strings
12:44	Morgawr	okay
12:44	Morgawr	I'm an idiot
12:44	Morgawr	I wrote "reuducers" instead of reducers
12:44	Morgawr	nevermind =_=
12:44	unsymbol	:3
12:46	hardliner_	is clojure for hikkikimories?
12:46	wedr	hardliner_: yep
12:48	hardliner_	wedr: when you go out from home last time?
12:49	unsymbol	til : hikikomori :)
12:50	arrdem	is there a better way to achieve this sort of result? https://www.refheap.com/19800
12:51	wedr	hardliner_: today, cause im working as consulter
12:51	hardliner_	wedr: so you are not hikkikimori
12:51	wedr	hardliner_: no, im not
12:51	hardliner_	wedr: they are sitting at home
12:51	hardliner_	all the time
12:51	wedr	im wannabe hikkimori
12:51	hardliner_	he-he
12:52	hardliner_	why?
12:52	clojurebot	hardliner_: because you can't handle the truth!
12:52	hardliner_	why?
12:52	clojurebot	why is startup slow is busy compiling the `for` macroexpansion
12:52	wedr	hardliner_: cause i hate consulting
12:52	wedr	hardliner_: i want work remotely
12:52	hardliner_	wedr: go software development
12:52	wedr	hardliner_: im software developer
12:52	hardliner_	and consultant?
12:53	wedr	hardliner_: yes, java enterprise and so on
12:53	wedr	you know
12:53	Morgawr	mm.. weir
12:53	Morgawr	weird
12:53	Morgawr	I did (reduce + (map inc (range 1 1000000))) and it took like 14 seconds
12:53	mtp	what is enterprise
12:53	Morgawr	then I did (reduce + (r/map inc (range 1 1000000)) and it didn't complete, not sure if I ran into a deadlock or it was just very slow
12:53	Morgawr	(waited like 10 minutes)
12:54	Morgawr	this is not normal, is it?
12:54	hardliner_	wedr: i'm c++ monkey
12:55	rasmusto	arrdem: (if (pred map) (update-in map path arg ...) map) ? doesn't seem like you'd have to wrap it in a function
12:55	wedr	mtp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_software
12:55	arrdem	rasmusto: the reason to wrap it is so that I can use it in ->
12:55	arrdem	rasmusto: that's the real question.. mid -> conditional updates.
12:55	rasmusto	arrdem: okay, looks reasonable then
12:55	rasmusto	arrdem: see also cond->
12:56	hardliner_	wedr: do you have dress code?
12:56	arrdem	rasmusto: oh right. we have that as of 1.5...
12:56	Morgawr	http://www.morgawr.eu/p/1381767636.png the last command seems to either block or explode in computational time to something very unreasonable...
12:56	rasmusto	arrdem: seem better than making a function that works only for -> (and not ->>)
12:57	rasmusto	arrdem: 1.20 is NOT the latests: warning!, use 1.30 docs instead
12:59	Morgawr	http://www.morgawr.eu/p/1381767851.png oh well, looks like it finished :D .... :(
13:06	llasram	Morgawr: FYI, you might consider using a text paste service like refheap.com instead of images...
13:07	arrdem	llasram: but he's trolling for our IPs...
13:07	Morgawr	arrdem: lol
13:07	Morgawr	llasram: I find it easier when I'm not pasting code
13:07	Morgawr	sorry
13:07	Morgawr	(I have a script that takes screenshot and uploads it automatically)
13:08	arrdem	Morgawr: refheap.el?
13:08	Morgawr	arrdem: I know I could use a paste service but using paste tool for structured text that doesn't have anything directly to do with code feels weird to me
13:08	Morgawr	but yeah, I'll do that in the future, sorry
13:09	mtp	reading a screenshot of text is weird to the rest of us
13:10	arrdem	mtp: <fighting pants> SPEAK FOR YOURSELF SAH </fighting pants>
13:10	Morgawr	mtp: point taken
13:11	mtp	flashbacks to tech-support days, with Word docs full of screenshots of terminals
13:11	Morgawr	sounds like PTSD :P
13:12	mtp	maybe
13:12	mtp	:)
13:27	bitemyapp	technomancy: I enjoyed your OCaml write-up, thanks for doing that :)
13:28	bitemyapp	technomancy: how would you feel about a Haskell compare-contrast for grench? (not your labor, mine)
13:37	technomancy	bitemyapp: that'd be interesting. I wonder if it would create confusion for users though.
13:38	bitemyapp	technomancy: it'd be a semi-private/quiet experiment. Between the two of us, I think I've done more Haskelling and I want to compare contrast.
13:38	bitemyapp	technomancy: I look at either potential result as a win, either Haskell does well and that's cool or I get a new cudgel for tormenting puffnfresh with.
13:39	technomancy	seems like a lot of work to go to for just a throw-away program, even though I'd certainly be interested in reading a write-up. but if it's something you'd have fun with then go for it =)
13:40	bitemyapp	technomancy: I wanted something not-Clojure to do. my head rattles from the parens inside if I turn too quickly.
13:51	technomancy	you forgot the firstworldproblems hashtag there buddy =)
13:52	bitemyapp	technomancy: haha, too true.
13:52	bitemyapp	technomancy: the reason for the head-rattling is I've been doing Clojure at work and at home, so I'm more clj-inundated than usual.
13:53	rasmusto	I really like pprint/print-table, but I want to make it parsable, is there something in edn for me?
13:58	bitemyapp	Alright Timbre, this shit: "java.lang.NullPointerException: null" is getting old.
13:58	Morgawr	mm.. I'm trying to write a map with some heavy computation and I want it to be realized (non-lazy), I try (time (doall (map myfunction mycoll) nil)) in the repl because I don't want it to print any values (too cluttered) and it finishes right away
13:59	Morgawr	isn't doall supposed to enforce realization?
13:59	technomancy	bitemyapp: did you try the paaaaaatch?
13:59	Morgawr	oh
13:59	bitemyapp	technomancy: oh frick.
13:59	Morgawr	nvm I realized the problem
13:59	rasmusto	Morgawr: what was the problem?
13:59	Morgawr	(doall (myfun) nil) means that it doesn't actually enforce (myfun)
13:59	bitemyapp	technomancy: let me give it a whirl. What's the most direct way, checkout?
13:59	rasmusto	oh, the nil was returned right away?
13:59	Morgawr	rasmusto: yea
14:00	rasmusto	gotcha
14:00	Morgawr	because the second form of doall takes [n coll]
14:00	Morgawr	to realize 'coll' n times
14:00	technomancy	bitemyapp: lein install from a checkout
14:00	Morgawr	but it was seeing 'coll' as 'nil' :P
14:00	Morgawr	(do (doall (mymap)) nil) is what I needed
14:00	Morgawr	(I know it's ugly but it's just some quick repl hacking to test stuff)
14:00	llasram	Morgawr: Or `dorun`?
14:00	rasmusto	Morgawr: uh, I thought doall just took a lazy seq in an implicit do?
14:01	bitemyapp	technomancy: the good news is, I have my repro because I just nailed this error in production, so I have a regression I can poke at.
14:01	bitemyapp	well, fake production. Not real production.
14:01	bitemyapp	you get my meaning -_-
14:02	Morgawr	llasram: derp
14:02	Morgawr	llasram: thanks for the tip, I didn't even know that :P
14:02	Morgawr	rasmusto: you can pass a number to doall to specify how much of the sequence you want to realize
14:03	rasmusto	Morgawr: ah, didn't see that
14:10	Raynes	bitemyapp: I don't see the problem.
14:10	Raynes	bitemyapp: Obviously null.
14:11	Raynes	What part of null do you not understand? null.
14:11	bitemyapp	Raynes: the hilarious part is it swallows all my logging information from Timbre, making it impossible to know what broke.
14:11	bitemyapp	thanks Obama.
14:12	Raynes	I bet it's running better than the convernemtn.
14:12	Raynes	wat how did that happen
14:12	Raynes	government
14:12	scriptor	interesting typo
14:19	llasram	Raynes: You may want to get that stroke looked at
14:19	Raynes	llasram: Indeed.
14:20	llasram	Raynes: Do you happen to use the Dvorak keyboard layout?
14:20	Raynes	llasram: I barely use the qwerty layout.
14:20	llasram	hah
14:21	Raynes	I'm the second fastest typist in Geni at the moment, yet nobody understands how I even manage to produce words given that I type with like two fingers on each hand.
14:21	scriptor	what's your typing speed?
14:21	Raynes	110-115ish
14:21	technomancy	the supple fingers of youth
14:22	arrdem	yall type so fast...
14:24	dnolen	this is a pretty tricky/fun performance enhancement ticket for ClojureScript http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-619
14:25	bitemyapp	technomancy: yes, that fixed it.
14:25	bitemyapp	Raynes: I do 80-90 WAM typically, 100-105 if I'm paying attention.
14:26	bitemyapp	technomancy: now I have useful stacktraces again.
14:26	Raynes	bitemyapp: My typical speed is something like 85-95.
14:26	Raynes	bitemyapp: But if I care, I can hit 110-115 pretty easily.
14:26	bitemyapp	welp. pushin' this to quasi-prod so I can know wtf is going on.
14:26	bitemyapp	Raynes: I don't think I could crack 110 unless I practiced. I don't type properly (home row)
14:27	Raynes	bitemyapp: What I was just saying is that I don't do that either.
14:27	Raynes	I don't do anything even remotely resembling that, in fact.
14:27	Raynes	My hands literally hover above the keyboard.
14:27	Raynes	I hunt and peck, but at 200 miles per hour. :P
14:27	Raynes	(and without looking at the keyboard, of course)
14:28	technomancy	isn't that just pecking then?
14:28	Raynes	Sure. My fingers still hunt.
14:28	noncom	when you do that does it look like that? : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T7FKrJvgCk
14:28	bitemyapp	my fingers hunt some, but they hover in orbits on the left and right-hand sides so that I have easier access to symbols.
14:29	jonasen	dnolen: I don't really understand what you mean in CLJS-619. What do you mean with IFn implementations for different arities? Doesn't IFn already support that?
14:29	Raynes	noncom: Not really.
14:30	dnolen	jonasen: it does not, IFn is a fiction at this point - it just emits .call and .apply methods
14:30	technomancy	bitemyapp: thanks for the report; will try to get a release out today.
14:30	dnolen	jonasen: with the obvious perf hits around & args
14:31	jonasen	dnolen: what's the alternative?
14:31	dnolen	jonasen: IFn implementors have .cljs$core$IFn$_invoke$arity$ for each arity
14:32	dnolen	jonasen: since it's a bear to implement all 20 arities, I think it may be ok to use JS prototypes here to get default implementations
14:32	dnolen	jonasen: this means calls collections as functions will get much, much, much faster
14:32	dnolen	jonasen: and it would be possible for multimethods to not be so slow
14:32	bitemyapp	technomancy: aweeeessssooome. Thank you :)
14:34	pandeiro	how can i kill a repl process started with lein repl :headless?
14:34	jonasen	so ([42 43] 1) would emit <persistent-collection>..cljs$core$IFn$_invoke$arity$1(1)
14:36	jonasen	dnolen: instead of cljs.core.PersistentVector.fromArray([42, 43], true).call(null, 1);
14:36	dnolen	jonasen: yep
14:36	jonasen	dnolen: I think dart does this?
14:37	dnolen	jonasen: and that will get even faster when we emit constant tables w/ pre-allocated data structures
14:37	dnolen	so (if (#{1 2 3} 1) ...) could be very fast
14:38	Raynes	bitemyapp, noncom, technomancy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZWxIyxxtis
14:38	Raynes	In case you care.
14:39	dnolen	jonasen: re: multimethods, currently 100X slower than Clojure JVM
14:39	bitemyapp	Raynes: yeah, you type a lot like I do.
14:39	jonasen	dnolen: I haven't really looked at how multimethods work... But I'm a happy user of them :)
14:40	Raynes	bitemyapp: But on a better keyboard! :D
14:40	Raynes	:p
14:40	jonasen	so making them faster +1 from me
14:40	bbloom	dnolen: is anything blocking the constant tables any more? we have the :constant? flag and we have the keyword table. can't we just glue those together pretty easily?
14:42	bitemyapp	Raynes: I type on a fairly flat wired apple keyboard. I've grown accustomed to these things.
14:43	dnolen	jonasen: they are pretty simple, at least the ClojureScript implementation - skimming the source, there's a lot of room for improvement.
14:44	dnolen	bbloom: we never actually merged in the :constant? work in your branch
14:52	bbloom	dnolen: scratches head really? it's been a while, i forgot heh
14:53	Raynes	bitemyapp: I'm fairly accustomed to my macbook keyboard, but I <3 my das.
14:53	bbloom	dnolen: ooooh yeah, heh
14:53	arrdem	upvotes for the das!
14:53	Raynes	bitemyapp: You should consider getting a CM quickfire rapid.
14:53	bbloom	ok, well i guess i need to bring that up to date at some point
14:53	Raynes	It's super cheap (if you care about that), but is mechanical and doesn't suck.
14:53	Raynes	My flatmate got one of those recently. Enjoys it quite a bit, I hear.
14:53	bitemyapp	Raynes: I've gotten so used to the low-travel Apple keyboards that I don't know if I'd want to do that except as a gaming keyboard.
14:54	bbloom	dnolen: ah but f80956 did make it in
14:54	technomancy	I'm kind of afraid that once my mechanical keyboard arrives I'll just be filled with disgust at everything else
14:55	Raynes	bitemyapp, technomancy: It's really easy to go from a good keyboard to a shitty apple keyboard.
14:55	bitemyapp	technomancy: which did you get?
14:55	Raynes	In my experience anyways.
14:55	arrdem	technomancy: it isn't so much disgust at anything else.. you just miss the feel when not using it.
14:55	bbloom	dnolen: https://github.com/brandonbloom/clojurescript/commit/b02b07fe888ffc8554469148cb35afdceabcd348 doesn't seem too scary if that would help :-P
14:55	technomancy	bitemyapp: ergodox
14:55	bitemyapp	I've owned mechanical keyboards before, I just don't own one right now.
14:55	bitemyapp	technomancy: too hardcore for me.
14:55	dnolen	bbloom: yep, that's the bit that's missing
14:56	technomancy	arrdem: going from my thinkpad to a macbooklike chicklet filled me with disgust though
14:57	arrdem	technomancy: idk. I can still type on my friends macbooks and my Samsung Series 9, I just miss the clicking feeling to the point that I've been known to lug a Das around campus with me.
14:57	technomancy	I got rid of my series 9 =(
14:57	arrdem	Q_Q
14:57	arrdem	technomancy: you traded up to a Crackbook Air didn't you, trator.
14:58	technomancy	arrdem: not a chance. got my old thinkpad repaired.
14:58	jonasen	dnolen: bbloom: I read the log from a couple of days back when you were discussing cljs "static fields" with cemerick... I just want to mention that I support your side of the argument: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure-dev/Ge5uEqlUcJk/E-PnFQ9lefoJ
14:59	bbloom	jonasen: ::thumbs up::
15:00	dnolen	jonasen: yes I remember
15:00	dnolen	jonasen: that's why I pinged you when I changed it, I realized you were right because otherwise identifying namespaces is more complicated in CLJS.
15:01	dnolen	jonasen: we can special case the convention for deftypes, but it just seems like a JVMism to me, not a Clojure-ism.
15:02	jonasen	dnolen: I think it's important to follow clojure semantics as close as possible but _not_ interop semantics
15:02	bbloom	dnolen: i get a test failure on master right now
15:02	jonasen	interop is obviously different between platforms
15:02	bbloom	dnolen: Error: Assert failed: (= (-> s reader/read-string .valueOf) (-> s reader/read-string pr-str reader/read-string .valueOf))
15:03	bbloom	under V8. out/core-advanced-test.js:1090
15:03	dnolen	bbloom: hrm, running them, tests pass for me.
15:03	bbloom	i did a clean & a bootstrap, then ran them & get that
15:04	dnolen	bbloom: trying
15:06	dnolen	bbloom: no failing tests, clean + bootstrap
15:06	bbloom	on 09488be2?
15:06	dnolen	bbloom: yes
15:06	bbloom	odd....
15:07	dnolen	bbloom: or a bug, that's an #inst test
15:09	bbloom	dnolen: #_ing it out: all the other tests pass for me
15:09	gphilippart	hi
15:09	jonasen	dnolen: bbloom: I haven't been able to run the test suite for a long time and I have not been able to figure out what the problem is. I've got a special testing branch where I have commented out https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/test/cljs/cljs/core_test.cljs#L1725-L1726
15:10	dnolen	jonasen: so that line causes tests to not run for you?
15:10	gphilippart	Can anyone give me a hand on a simple atom probem ?
15:10	bbloom	dnolen: run ${V8_HOME}/d8 and tell me what version you've got
15:10	bbloom	gphilippart: don't ask to ask. just ask
15:10	dnolen	version 3.22.11 (candidate)
15:10	dnolen	I built a couple of days ago
15:10	gphilippart	yeah, right
15:10	bbloom	dnolen: hmm, i've got 3.10.2.1
15:11	gphilippart	I expect reset! to respect lazyness but (reset! commands (cycle (concat (repeat 6 "UP") (repeat 6 "DOWN")))) realizes the lazy seq that comes out of (cycle x)
15:12	jonasen	dnolen: core_test.cljs doesnt compile for me with #queue literals. But the weird thing is that #queue [1 2 3] works in script/repljs
15:12	gphilippart	where commands is an atom of course
15:12	bbloom	jonasen: have you run script/boostrap ?
15:12	jonasen	bbloom: yes
15:12	bbloom	and script/clean? :-)
15:13	jonasen	bbloom: yep, several times :)
15:13	bbloom	shrug
15:13	bbloom	i'm updating my v8 now
15:13	bbloom	seeing if that helps my issue
15:14	amalloy	gphilippart: no it doesn't
15:14	bbloom	dnolen: anyway. i remembered the other thing that is blocking the constants table for data structures....
15:14	amalloy	perhaps your repl is realizing the sequence in order to print it for you
15:14	dnolen	jonasen: seems like a reader problem maybe? what version of tools.reader is in your lib directory?
15:14	bbloom	dnolen: it's the fact that all the deftypes get mixed in with their implementations. we'd have to sort all the deftypes to the top, basically
15:14	bbloom	b/c the fields/constructor needs to come before the constants table
15:14	jonasen	so #queue [1 2 3] works in script/repljs but _not_ script/repl
15:14	bbloom	which is needed throughout the bootstrapping process
15:15	dnolen	jonasen: seems like a classpath thing?
15:15	dnolen	bbloom: we already emit constant_table.js in the right place
15:15	dnolen	after the standard lib, before all user libs
15:16	dnolen	oh
15:16	jonasen	dnolen: Yes, probably. Does #queue literals work for you in script/repl?
15:16	gphilippart	amalloy : seems I'm bitten by the repl realizing lazyseqs.
15:16	gphilippart	how do you know it's still lazy ?
15:17	dnolen	bbloom: oh you're talking about making it work for user deftypes too ... lower priority I think.
15:17	amalloy	gphilippart: because it would be absurd for it not to be. that is just not how things work
15:17	amalloy	reset! doesn't have any magical properties that reach inside of objects and somehow make them non-lazy; it just sets a pointer
15:18	bbloom	dnolen: hmmm… i didn't consider differentiating core and user deftypes…
15:18	dnolen	jonasen: yes #queue [1 2 3] works for me in repljs
15:19	gphilippart	amalloy : yeah it sounded absurd to me as well, yet my ring handler blocks on this call. I might have missed something.
15:19	jonasen	dnolen: it works for me to in repljs, but not in repl (i.e., script/repl)
15:20	dnolen	jonasen: which is the Clojure repl, why should it work there?
15:20	jonasen	dnolen: ok, just wanted to check
15:21	dnolen	jonasen: compile-file* in compiler.clj binds reader/data-readers to tags/cljs-data-readers
15:21	dnolen	jonasen: where reader is tools.reader
15:23	pandeiro	anyone use ring-middleware-format? besides setting the Accept: header what must a request do to trigger the automatic response serialization?
15:24	noonian	pandeiro: you should get response serialization on any route that you wrapped with wrap-format-response, if you don't specify one it should default to json I think
15:32	bitemyapp	If I find the person responsible for putting this: ["[]"] - in my schema, I'm going to beat them to death with a banana.
15:33	pandeiro	noonian: i am doing something like (-> (site (context root [] my-routes)) (wrap-restful-format)) - do i need to call wrap-format-response? i thought it was included in wrap-restful-format
15:34	jonasen	dnolen: I can compile core_test.cljs from the repl using cljs.compiler/compile-file*. I can also read #queue literals in script/repljs. But I can not read #queue literals when running script/test..
15:34	noonian	pandeiro: wrap-restful-format does both, but if you wrap routes with wrap-response that are supposed to return html and not json I've encountered problems
15:35	noonian	so I switched to using wrap-restful-params for everything, and only wrap-restful-response on the actual routes I am returning non-html data from
15:35	dnolen	jonasen: hmm weird ... maybe we need to setup that binding around analysis as well?
15:35	bbloom	dnolen: jonasen: ugh. v8 takes forever to compile. how do people actually write software like this?
15:36	dnolen	bbloom: yeah forever
15:36	bbloom	IMO, 1 second is the upper bound for how long ANYTHING should take to compile
15:36	gphilippart	amalloy: I put a very simple ring app (20 lines) here : https://github.com/gphilipp/gilles-elevator/blob/master/src/gilles_elevator/core.clj. When I go to localhost:8081/reset, the browser returns the whole realized list, and the CPU goes wild. It's just a reset!. What's the issue ?
15:36	dnolen	bbloom: trying compiling Mercury sometime, 8 hours or something like that
15:37	dnolen	erg updated nrepl, stopped worked
15:37	dnolen	nrepl.el
15:37	amalloy	ring is trying to interpret the result of your reset! as a valid ring response
15:37	technomancy	bitemyapp: https://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-stacktrace/tree/0.2.7
15:37	arrdem	dnolen: yeah melpa's nrepl is b0rken
15:37	noonian	pandeiro: for instance you can return a sequence of strings and ring renders it as html, if you call wrap-restful-response that will be converted to a json array, at least if its a vector
15:37	dnolen	arrdem: how to fix?
15:38	arrdem	dnolen: idk. I wound up pulling nrepl from my packages and `git clone`ing the master. that worked.
15:38	arrdem	dnolen: another fix is to use the marmalade version.
15:38	pandeiro	noonian: gotcha.. and the middleware should work fine with (context "foo" [] foo-routes), right? right now i'm getting 0-length responses for some reason
15:38	arrdem	dnolen: but that's only 0.2.0, not 0.2.3 which is Master ToT
15:38	amalloy	try reading the ring SPEC to see what a ring handler is supposed to return
15:39	amalloy	$google clojure ring spec.md
15:39	lazybot	[ring/SPEC at master · mmcgrana/ring · GitHub] https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/SPEC
15:39	technomancy	melpa =\
15:39	bbloom	dnolen: ok, on latest V8: tests run
15:39	bitemyapp	technomancy: thank you :)
15:39	noonian	pandeiro: that usually means you need to wrap it in ring.util.response/response
15:39	dnolen	bbloom: ok good to know
15:39	dnolen	bbloom: all the JS engines on the bleeding edge are crazy finicky
15:39	pandeiro	noonian: huh b/c the ring-middleware-format README says just return a clojure data structure
15:40	dnolen	bbloom: they've on failed inexplicably at one time or another
15:40	dnolen	they've all
15:40	bbloom	heh
15:40	noonian	pandeiro: basically, handlers need to return maps, otherwise format-response is looking in the :body key presumably, and getting nil for the value
15:40	pandeiro	noonian: ah ok
15:40	pandeiro	compojure magic confused me there
15:40	noonian	pandeiro: yeah, the :body should contain a clojure datastructure, maps to json objects, vectors to arrays, etc
15:41	gphilippart	amalloy : thx, I wrapped my call into a do block, and return a "reset everything" string.
15:41	gphilippart	seems to do the trick
15:41	gphilippart	I get it now
15:44	dnolen	arrdem: grr, still not working for me, I get a hung process when using nrepl.el
15:44	arrdem	dnolen: the brand new one from github?
15:46	dnolen	arrdem: yeah, HEAD is busted, I git reset back to the 0.2.0 commit
15:46	arrdem	dnolen: ... weird that's not the behavior I'm seeing. I'm sitting at a4f90f2d25985396e760e6c889d9dcb19deddeca happily.
15:47	dnolen	arrdem: yeah, well at least it's working for me now, thanks for the help
15:47	arrdem	ugh someone is gonna have to figure out what's going on here eventually...
16:15	al-maisan	hello there! I get "Exception in thread "async-dispatch-916" java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: No more than 1024 pending puts are allowed on a single channel. Consider using a windowed buffer." when using core.async with a lot of go routines .. ist this a hard limit..?
16:16	BobSchack	pretty much https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/main/clojure/cljs/core/async/impl/channels.cljs#L57
16:17	tbaldridge	al-maisan: yep, pending puts/takes create a unbounded buffer (a bad thing), Use a larger buffer, or use a windowed one.
16:18	tbaldridge	or at least without that assert they create a unbounded buffer.
16:18	al-maisan	will try a larger buffer .. thanks tbaldridge and BobSchack !
16:20	amalloy	i wouldn't just increase the buffer size without at least examining why you need more than 1024 buffered writes. it seems more likely to be a bug in your code than a limitation you're really bumping up again
16:21	amalloy	like, two thousand different go blocks all writing to the same place? doesn't sound good
16:26	pepijndevos	Should I use core.monad or protocol-monads?
16:28	al-maisan	amalloy: I actually forgot to set the buffer size in first place
16:28	amalloy	pepijndevos: i don't think core.monad exists. algo.monad?
16:28	al-maisan	amalloy: I have a program that spawns 50K go routines that all write results to the same channel
16:29	pepijndevos	amalloy, yes.
16:29	tbaldridge	al-maisan: that's going to be a bit of a problem for several reasons. but, what do you need 50k go blocks for?
16:29	pepijndevos	everyone at eeuroclojure seems to tak about the state monad
16:30	pepijndevos	so while I'm in my place with proper wifi, I though i'd check it out
16:30	lynaghk	si14: pong
16:30	amalloy	pepijndevos: i would for sure not use algo.monad. i probably would learn haskell rather than try to use protocol-monads, but at least protocol-monads is conceptually sound; last i checked, it doesn't violate the monad laws
16:30	pepijndevos	haha
16:31	pepijndevos	I did some haskell actually
16:31	pepijndevos	but yea, the prevailing opinion seems to be that most advanced monads only make sense with a type system
16:32	pepijndevos	I just have some clojure code that I think could benefit from the state monad, so I want to try that
16:32	amalloy	i'm inclined to agree, but don't have enough experience that you should take my opinion seriously
16:32	al-maisan	tbaldridge: just kicking the tyres of core.async .. I have similar code working in golang
16:32	pepijndevos	what a stunning amount of documentation...
16:33	amalloy	that's jimduey for you, pepijndevos
16:33	amalloy	monads also suffer from lack of TCO, because you end up with a lot of nested calls to bind that could be optimized but aren't on the jvm
16:33	al-maisan	tbaldridge: what is a more "reasonable" number of go routines to be used with core.async?
16:33	tbaldridge	al-maisan: yeah, the reasoning for the limitation is that a) it's mostly pointless. Very few people need to do that in production. 2) it normally indicates a flaw in the logic of the program.
16:34	al-maisan	tbaldridge: err .. how about embarrassingly parallel problems?
16:35	tbaldridge	al-maisan: use reducers. core.async is a concurrency library, not a parallelism library. Or just spin up X number of threads/gos where X is the number of CPUs. Any more than that, and you're going to kill performance due to book keeping.
16:35	pepijndevos	amalloy, ouch... that might be a problem
16:35	pepijndevos	meh, probably not
16:35	tbaldridge	Notice how very few (if any) raytracers spin off a thread for every pixel. They spin up CPU+2 threads and then process the pixels in blocks
16:35	al-maisan	ok, will look at reducers .. thanks tbaldridge !!
16:38	bitemyapp	pepijndevos: I like that people use the opportunity to go to a Clojure conference and be surrounded by Clojurians to talk about things Haskellers do :)
16:38	AimHere	Isn't gossipping about people of other languages exactly what Clojurians do?
16:38	AimHere	At least in conferences
16:39	AimHere	They get some Scala dude in to talk about Scala. They get Byrd and Friedman to talk about Kanren and Prolog, they all bitch about Java
16:39	muhoo	there's been a weird envy/cross-pollination between haskell and clojure for a while
16:40	al-maisan	tbaldridge: yeah, ideally I'd like to fire up all the tasks in separare go routines and let the run time take care of things
16:40	al-maisan	tbaldridge: the golang runtime is handling huge numbers of go routines just fine
16:40	scriptor	muhoo: both ways?
16:40	muhoo	scriptor: mostly one way AFAICT
16:40	dnolen	al-maisan: the problems you'll encounter with your approach is no different than in core.async, Erlang, Haskell sparks, etc
16:40	tbaldridge	al-maisan: so does core.async, the problem is putting all the values into the channel. But like I said, you'll get better performance by doing things slightly differently
16:41	tbaldridge	al-maisan: for instance, spin up 10 gos to do processing, then use one more go to spool items into the channel.
16:42	al-maisan	thanks for the suggestions tbaldridge .. will try that
16:42	dnolen	al-maisan: here's a simple go program that breaks down
16:42	dnolen	https://gist.github.com/swannodette/6981382
16:42	dnolen	easily portable to core.async, Erlang, Haskell where it will also ... break down
16:46	pepijndevos	the tests and source code arn't terribly helpful to understand how to use the state monad.
16:46	al-maisan	dnolen: I am clojure rookie and just trying to replicate what I had working in golang very nicely (https://github.com/freizeit/exercises/tree/master/cj-a-store-credit/golang)
16:47	al-maisan	dnolen: just experimenting with core.async at this point ..
16:49	al-maisan	dnolen: when I spawned 50K go routines (all writing to the same result channel) in golang the runtime handled that just fine .. hence my questions whether that would be the case in core.async as well
16:49	al-maisan	but never mind
16:51	dnolen	al-maisan: yes I understood what you're trying to do. But my gist shows precisely where allowing unbounded queues behind the scene allows things to fall apart.
16:51	al-maisan	sure .. point taken
16:51	dnolen	al-maisan: core.async could also allow it, but it does not - different philosophy
16:51	al-maisan	gotcha
16:52	tbaldridge	al-maisan: since it's an artificial limit, we don't mind removing it at some point, but we haven't seen a good use case yet.
16:56	coventry	bitemyapp: "git blame --retribution=banana-beat-down"
16:56	mercwith1mouth	lol
16:56	bitemyapp	coventry: it's unconscionable.
16:57	bitemyapp	meanwhile, I'm knee-deep in nested-reduce-hell.
16:57	bitemyapp	can't figure out how a root binding got ghosted out of existence by all my (next (reduce ...)) calls.
17:00	bitemyapp	Somewhere out there a Haskeller is mocking me mercilessly.
17:01	muhoo	i saw a post recently by a guy who listed all the reasons why using a queue is a bad idea.
17:01	muhoo	googled, haven't been able to find it. but it was basically "yeah, nice hammer, too bad that's not a nail"
17:02	tbaldridge	muhoo: WHERE!?! someone is wrong on the internet....
17:02	Morgawr	man, I just read http://swannodette.github.io/2013/07/12/communicating-sequential-processes/ this... hell, I've always seen you guys talk about core.async but never really cared about it... it's amazing :V
17:02	bitemyapp	muhoo: in what use-case?
17:02	bitemyapp	muhoo: RabbitMQ has solved a goodly number of problems for something I'm working on right now.
17:02	dnolen	Morgawr: it's pretty cool
17:03	Morgawr	dnolen: yes
17:03	muhoo	tbaldridge: bitemyapp: wish i could find it. there was a list of cases where, if you are doing x, y, or z, you don't want a queue
17:03	bitemyapp	there are some aspects of queues I find awkward/annoying, I can't say I'd be upset if it just turned into a lazy-job-processing database coll instead.
17:03	Morgawr	definitely going to use this for my next gamedev challenge in clojurescript :P
17:03	tbaldridge	bitemyapp: the more I use RabbitMQ the more I love it.
17:03	bitemyapp	muhoo: that sounds...really useful. Please save the links you find next time :P
17:03	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: I'm...not really there with you on that. More like familiarity breeding contempt. It's still useful though.
17:04	bitemyapp	RMQ technically does its job fine, I just find the semantics of how AMQP based queues work annoying at times.
17:04	tbaldridge	explain?
17:05	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: listing my grievances is more like a blog post or a skype call than a drive-by on IRC.
17:05	bitemyapp	it might elucidate the matter quickly that I'm using it as a job queue, not a message queue though.
17:06	tbaldridge	bitemyapp: well let me know when that happens. For what I use it for (durable, reliable, messaging) it seems to work well, but there are many tasks I would not use it for.
17:06	bitemyapp	usually whenever I mention that I'm using RMQ as a job queue, people go, "ohhhh" at my grumpiness surrounding it.
17:10	bitemyapp	I'm just going to start adding types to my program until it makes sense.
17:11	tbaldridge	rofl, that's going on twitter.
17:11	dnolen	Morgawr: this is a pretty cool writeup of using core.async to do a Dots clone http://rigsomelight.com/2013/08/12/clojurescript-core-async-dots-game.html
17:12	dnolen	Morgawr: a good one a pong variation http://ragnard.github.io/2013/10/01/clojurecup-pong-async.html
17:12	dnolen	Morgawr: and I heard weavejester was talking about core.async for games at EuroClojure
17:13	Morgawr	dnolen: daamn so much to read, thanks! :P
17:15	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: you laugh, but it'll probably help.
17:16	bitemyapp	I hope.
17:18	hfaafb	is there a web interface that compiles cljs to js
17:18	hfaafb	to sate curiosities
17:18	muhoo	hfaafb: cljsfiddle?
17:18	scriptor	to see the resulting js?
17:19	dnolen	hfaafb: http://cljsfiddle.net
17:19	hfaafb	thanks :)
17:19	dnolen	hfaafb: http://himera.herokuapp.com/index.html also
17:20	dnolen	hfaafb: note neither are particularly informative since the JS we generate is optimized for further processing by Google Closure Compiler
17:20	scriptor	how do you check the version of cljs you're running?
17:20	dnolen	scriptor: there's no way to do that at the moment
17:20	scriptor	is the herokuapp one otherwise up-to-date?
17:20	hfaafb	ahh do any of these show the resulting js?
17:22	xeqi	does cljsfiddle let you write macros?
17:22	jonasen	xeqi: no
17:23	dnolen	hfaafb: in Himera you can always just wrap your expression in an (fn [] ...)
17:24	jonasen	xeqi: with some sandboxing and custom cljs it would probably be possible
17:24	dnolen	hfaafb: so (fn [] some-expr)
17:24	jonasen	xeqi: but I haven't experimented with that at all yet
17:24	xeqi	jonasen: np, I was just going to raise concerns about sandboxing
17:26	hfaafb	much appreciated dnolen
17:26	benmoss	hfaafb: also no, not really. you can sorta see it if you look at the EDN response on cljsfiddle
17:27	benmoss	oh, better answer :)
17:28	jonasen	I could (should?) add a tab where you can see the generated js... that would probably be a useful feature
17:28	jonasen	in cljsfiddle that is
17:28	dnolen	jonasen: it would be useful for debugging yes, I had to use the DOM inspector to debug
17:33	dnolen	hfaafb: the CLJS version Himera uses is pretty cold now, cljsfiddle very up to date.
17:34	bitemyapp	Okay, so today's lesson was: maintain symmetry in nested reductions.
17:34	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: done without types ^^ just thinking :P
17:36	dnolen	jonasen: oh rad, you keep improved cljsfiddle, console much appreciated
17:36	dnolen	s/improved/improving
17:37	jonasen	dnolen: yes, its not finished yet :)
17:37	letslearn	hello, i hope it is ok to ask n00b questiosn here. I am going through the clojure koans series and am kinda tripped up with the functions portion. The one i am having trouble with is this one specifically
17:37	letslearn	"Higher-order functions take function arguments" (= 25 ((fn [f] (f 5)) (fn [n] (* n n))))
17:38	letslearn	I am not certain what is happening here. It is that - ((fn [f] (f 5)) is returning 5 ?
17:40	letslearn	So, to prove that, I tried (= (fn [f] (f 5))5) in the repl and it gave me false. So, I am confused
17:41	AimHere	letslearn, (fn [f] (f 5)) takes a function and applies it to 5
17:41	letslearn	applies it to 5?
17:41	AimHere	letslearn, So ((fn [f] (f 5)) inc) would increase 5
17:41	letslearn	oh
17:42	jonasen	dnolen: I'm also planning to implement C-x-e (etc) key bindings so you can do "emacs-like" interactive development... Paredit is another thing I'd like to add but I'm hoping idbknox will implement that (and release it) for lighttable.
17:42	AimHere	The function being passed happens to be one that squares the number that's passed to it
17:42	scriptor	applies it = called with
17:42	AimHere	Yes
17:42	AimHere	Sorry
17:42	scriptor	f applied to 5 = f is called with 5
17:42	dnolen	jonasen: C-x-e would be slick
17:42	letslearn	aah ok
17:42	scriptor	just clarifying
17:42	letslearn	thank you! AimHere and scriptor
17:42	dnolen	jonasen: did kovasb do a stand alone paredit thing? or least bits of it?
17:43	dnolen	s/did/didn't
17:43	AimHere	,(apply #(* x x) 5)
17:43	jonasen	did he?
17:43	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
17:43	AimHere	,(apply #(* % %) 5)
17:43	jonasen	for codemirror?
17:43	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
17:43	AimHere	Gah
17:43	dnolen	jonasen: oh I was thinking of this - http://github.com/achengs/subpar
17:43	hyPiRion	,(apply #(* % %) [5]) ;?
17:43	clojurebot	25
17:44	jonasen	dnolen: Thanks! I'll definitely take a close look at that!
17:44	letslearn	ok
17:46	letslearn	, ((fn [f] (f 5)) -) ; ?
17:46	clojurebot	-5
17:46	letslearn	thanks Aimhere, i think i get it now
17:47	bitemyapp	core.typed ended up being too noisy to be helpful in my use-case. Look forward to seeing it improve though.
17:54	mgaare	nrepl.el is broke
18:54	technomancy	why does lein-cljsbuild tell everyone to use hooks?
18:58	Raynes	technomancy: Too much phonics?
19:00	technomancy	undoubtedly
19:03	bitemyapp	I love it when I forget to comment my cond/case :elses so I remember what the fuck I was assuming at that point in time about the :else case
19:47	Morgawr	mm.. I'm trying to connect to an nrepl from lighttable and it's not working :(
19:48	Morgawr	I open the connect bar, add connection to nRepl (started from lein repl in my project), input localhost:<port> where port is the one provided by lein nrepl
19:48	rasmusto	Morgawr: is the project using clojure 1.5.X?
19:48	Morgawr	yes
19:48	Morgawr	1.5.1
19:48	Morgawr	it just says "connecting...." forever
19:48	rasmusto	that was the first thing that I ran into, idk what you're seeing, hm
19:53	rasmusto	can I use edn/read-string and (with-out-str (clojure.pprint/pprint somestuff)) safely?
19:53	Morgawr	uff, can't get it to connect ;_;
19:54	bitemyapp	Morgawr: I've never had any trouble in Emacs :)
19:54	rasmusto	well, if lighttable can't connect, can nrepl.el connect at least?
19:54	Morgawr	mmm.. I don't think it's an LT problem... when I kill the nrepl from the command line the "connecting..." is dropped
19:54	Morgawr	so maybe it's a problem from leing, idk
19:55	Morgawr	do I need to add some special flag to lein or somethnig?
20:02	Morgawr	does it have to be started in :headless mode from lein in order to be able to connect locally from LT?
20:03	rasmusto	Morgawr: that shouldn't matter.
20:04	rasmusto	Doesn't LT fire up its own repl if there isn't one running?
20:04	Morgawr	yes it does
20:04	Morgawr	but I want to connect to my own nrepl
20:09	rasmusto	i wonder if its a leiningen .nrepl-port thing
20:09	technomancy	if .nrepl-port gets written, you should be able to connect
20:10	technomancy	you can always test with `lein repl :connect` to see whether it's a client issue or not
20:15	Morgawr	technomancy: ehh, I did "lein repl :connect <port>" and it worked
20:15	Morgawr	but inside LightTable it doesn't
20:16	Morgawr	I really don't know why, it's so annoying
20:17	technomancy	yeah, no idea, sorry
20:24	rasmusto	Morgawr: what version of leiningen are you using?
20:26	Morgawr	2.1.3
20:28	rasmusto	I'm on 2.2.0, and I can connect to a new repl using LT
20:29	Morgawr	that might be the thing, how do I update lein?
20:29	rasmusto	lein upgrade
20:30	rasmusto	hmm, it looks like .nrepl-port and target/repl-port are both created with this version, I'm not sure what 2.1.3 did
20:30	Morgawr	rasmusto: ok, trying now :)
20:32	Morgawr	nah, still no good :(
20:32	rasmusto	you restarted the repl, right?
20:33	Morgawr	rasmusto: yeah ofc
20:33	rasmusto	:) just making sure. I've missed doing that personally
20:33	rasmusto	hrm, and you have both a .nrepl-port and target/repl-port file?
20:34	bitemyapp	arrdem: you watch SC2!?
20:34	Morgawr	rasmusto: where should I look for them?
20:35	rasmusto	Morgawr: on the machine that you're running the repl on
20:35	Morgawr	yeah but which folder :P in the lein project or in lein root?
20:35	rasmusto	oh, I guess I didn't understand, how are you attempting to connect to the repl with lt?
20:35	rasmusto	the root of the project where you run `lein repl`
20:35	Morgawr	I just run LT -> connections -> add connection from nRepl -> localhost:port
20:36	rasmusto	ah, okay. hrm
20:36	Morgawr	but yeah, it's not a big deal, I found a better way with dealing with this
20:36	Morgawr	by using the integrated LT repl
20:36	Morgawr	I was having a problem with an infinite loop (main game loop) so I just spawned that in another thread
20:36	Morgawr	and now it works perfectly :P no need for remote repl
20:39	rasmusto	Morgawr: hm yeah, I'm having some issues with the remote repl thing too
20:40	arrdem	bitemyapp: you bet your drones I do
20:41	bitemyapp	arrdem: do you play too?
20:42	arrdem	bitemyapp: I'm not competitive but I do play.
20:42	bitemyapp	arrdem: I've been thinking about getting back into it.
20:42	rasmusto	that game stresses me out
20:42	bitemyapp	rasmusto: that sounds about right.
20:42	arrdem	bitemyapp: I had a lot of fun back in HS playing 2v2s with a Masters buddy of mine
20:42	bitemyapp	arrdem: want to do 2v2s sometime?
20:42	arrdem	bitemyapp: but I never really enjoyed 1v1s
20:42	arrdem	bitemyapp: I'm down.
20:42	bitemyapp	I love 2v2s.
20:42	bitemyapp	arrdem: what region do you play on?
20:43	rasmusto	i need too much coffee to sustain 100+ apm, and my strategy goes out the window at that point
20:43	arrdem	bitemyapp: NA
20:43	arrdem	rasmusto: lol I've made 116 before, but I _feel_ like I'm flying at that point.
20:43	bitemyapp	arrdem: how should I ping you to play later?
20:43	arrdem	rasmusto: my normal max is about 85-90
20:43	rasmusto	i have inflated zerg apm too, so I cheat
20:44	bitemyapp	I have the most experience with Zerg, but playing Z really burns my tail.
20:44	arrdem	zerg APM is _not_ inflated.
20:44	bitemyapp	I need to finish switching to something else.
20:44	arrdem	bitemyapp: please please please be Protos
20:44	arrdem	muta/ling/bling is my specialty
20:44	arrdem	hydra/roach is my alternate
20:44	rasmusto	arrdem: its not? I thought that auto-repeat on unit building counted
20:44	bitemyapp	arrdem: P is my second best race an the one I was trying to transition to. We can do ZP 2s.
20:44	bitemyapp	and*
20:45	bitemyapp	arrdem: what tier are you?
20:45	bitemyapp	technomancy: kekekekekekeke
20:45	arrdem	bitemyapp: sounds good. I just finished midterms as you can tell by my ranting about church numerals. email me later and we can get something going.
20:45	arrdem	bbl lock picking
20:45	scriptor	time to make a clojure lounge channel
20:45	arrdem	technomancy: my appologies
20:46	rasmusto	scriptor: clounje
20:46	bitemyapp	rasmusto: ew
20:46	arrdem	scriptor: #clojure is the #clojure-offtopic
20:46	technomancy	arrdem: no this is legit; I just had a bad pattern match
20:46	scriptor	though I guess #emacs is pretty loungy
20:46	rasmusto	#emacs is where I go for politics
20:46	rasmusto	it hasn't worked out too well so far...
20:47	arrdem	technomancy: you should explain that in english... IRC modes are one of the many things I don't grok yet.
20:48	bitemyapp	arrdem: http://www.dslreports.com/faq/8037
20:48	rasmusto	bitemyapp: what isn't on dslreports.com?
20:48	arrdem	bitemyapp: ah. that's what I thought it meant.
20:48	technomancy	arrdem: just that I thought for a moment it was that "everyone in this room is terrible. please help me write a starcraft clone in clojure" troll
20:49	technomancy	and I was getting an itchy trigger finger
20:49	bitemyapp	LOL
20:49	bitemyapp	I actually totally forgot about that guy.
20:49	arrdem	HUEUEUEUE
20:49	bitemyapp	arrdem: wrong game, that BRs ruined Dota/Dota2/HoN/LoL not SC2.
20:49	rasmusto	he's probably laughing on the way to the bank as we speak
20:49	arrdem	bitemyapp: I think in his 48hrs chord equaled my cloutjure score...
20:49	bitemyapp	in SC2 they can't hide behind their teammates so they get face-smashed back into the MOBAs.
20:50	bitemyapp	arrdem: http://cloutjure.com/ ?
20:50	scriptor	I wish EE/RoN style RTS's
20:50	scriptor	someone should make one in clojure
20:50	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah... the DB has scores but the website doesn't
20:51	arrdem	ok. phew.
20:52	arrdem	{ "#clojure" : { "nick" : "chord", "posts" : NumberLong(719) } }
20:52	bitemyapp	wtf is a NumberLong?
20:52	arrdem	bitemyapp: mongodb weirdness
20:52	arrdem	bitemyapp: hey. we didn't have time to get neo4j working.
20:53	arrdem	bitemyapp: I practically DDoS'd our server and was still looking at 8hrs too slow to input the data.
20:54	technomancy	oh dear; is that to get around JSON's being coupled to JS broken numerics?
20:54	technomancy	wait no; I actually don't want to know the answer
20:54	bitemyapp	arrdem: you know I work on Korma, got a RethinkDB client started, and have been doing Datomic at work right?
20:54	bitemyapp	technomancy: the answer is yes, btw.
20:54	arrdem	technomancy: yeah... sadly that answer is yes.
20:54	bitemyapp	arrdem: there are a number of things you could do to avoid using MongoDB :(
20:54	arrdem	bitemyapp: no I did not. you should teach me to use a DB that sucks less.
20:55	bitemyapp	arrdem: I would be happy to. I should actually finish the Korma Clojure Cookbook chapter
20:55	bitemyapp	arrdem: then you could be one of my test subjects for the chapter.
21:47	dobry-den	I read that you should only throw Exceptions for external catastrophies, not for known hazards like user-input error.
21:47	dobry-den	Then what do you do when your library user's input was invalid?
21:48	technomancy	dobry-den: IMO there are places it's fine to throw for user error
21:48	technomancy	stuff like users trying to access things they don't have permissions for
21:49	technomancy	I wouldn't do it for badly formatted input though
21:50	dobry-den	technomancy: Compass' compiler produces an error "Cannot determine position of: <user-input>" and I'm wondering how that translates. Do you generally subclass your own Exception named after your library?
21:50	hyPiRion	I think Instaparse throws, actually.
21:51	technomancy	dobry-den: no; definitely don't subclass exception
21:51	technomancy	use ex-info
21:51	hyPiRion	In general, you just throw ExceptionInfo or RuntimeException.
21:52	dobry-den	thanks
22:57	scanlonman	Hey everyone, I just began 4clojure.com and am on problem 23 (http://www.4clojure.com/problem/23). Basically, the question wants me to reverse a sequence without using reverse or rseq
22:57	scanlonman	My question is -- is that possible to do in a method with only one argument?
22:57	scanlonman	All of the solutions I was thinking of had two arguments with a bootstrap method containing one argument
23:03	Raynes	It is indeed possible.
23:05	brehaut	,(partial reduce +)
23:05	clojurebot	#<core$partial$fn__4190 clojure.core$partial$fn__4190@23578d>
23:05	brehaut	,((partial reduce +) [1 2 3])
23:05	clojurebot	6
23:06	brehaut	,((partial reduce + 0) [1 2 3])
23:06	clojurebot	6
23:10	brehaut	scanlonman: ^ is a hint for you
23:10	scanlonman	Thank you!
23:11	brehaut	you might also find http://clojure.org/data_structures contains useful information
23:15	scanlonman	Are there any other recommended guides to learning Clojure? I've mostly just been using 4clojure and googling some methods when I need to find something out
23:15	scanlonman	I've googled around a bit and found the Clojure cheat sheet and Clojure in 15 minutes which were pretty useful
23:15	brehaut	that is the recommended method
23:15	scanlonman	Okay thanks!
23:15	scanlonman	Just need to get in the functional programming mindset :)
23:15	brehaut	the clojure.org website contains a lot of useful information but many beginners find it a bit overwhelmingly terse
23:17	danlentz	brehaut: just like clojure :)
23:17	brehaut	danlentz: i dont buy it. i have to type partial out in full!
23:18	danlentz	I have the hardest time remembering to shorten substring to subs
23:18	brehaut	you can jsut use .substring if you prefer
23:18	Raynes	Nothing wrong with it, in fact.
23:28	danlentz	i come from common-lisp where long symbols like 'multiple-value-bind are the norm
23:29	danlentz	nice when reading code, excruciating at times to type
23:30	brehaut	doesnt CL also have caaddaaddr
23:31	danlentz	with clojure's terse syntax I find I am able to make mistakes much more efficiently than in C
23:31	danlentz	CL
23:31	brehaut	i suspect that is familiarity more than anything
23:32	danlentz	y it was a dumb joke I was just kidding
23:32	brehaut	oh ok
23:34	danlentz	regarding CXXX..R I forget how many are defined by the standard. I think it is up to 10 A's and D's
23:34	brehaut	oh really? i thought it was jsut a reader macro expanding it out
23:35	danlentz	You'd have to be quite insane to actually use them, but at times there are a few notable ones like CADDR CDADDR that you find turning up more frequently
23:36	danlentz	nope they are functions
23:36	brehaut	thats something of a relief
23:38	danlentz	there is a book called let-over-lambda by doug hoyte that goes over the implementation of a very elegant macro that will define the CXR functions to any depth you want
23:39	danlentz	is really just an example of the macro writing technique, not a suggestion you them in practice
23:39	brehaut	right
23:39	brehaut	i think ive read a bit of that book. it gets very macros very fast
23:40	danlentz	hoyte does things with macros I never even imagined
23:41	danlentz	really strange new concepts like 'sub-lexical scope' is one off the top of my head
23:42	danlentz	it took me several years to digest the whole book -- starting at "I don't understand a damn thing in this book!"
23:56	tsantos	Is there an equivalent to (some pred coll) where it's sorta the opposite so it would be more like (matches? item pred-1 pred-2…)? I'm not sure I'm making this clear...
23:57	coventry	tsantos: Something like (some (every-pred p1 p2 ...) coll)?
23:57	danlentz	tsantos: any?
23:58	tsantos	well, I'm just interested to see of item passes any of the predicates
23:59	tsantos	(or (string? elem) (keyword? elem) (symbol? elem)) works but I was wondering if there was a simpler way of putting it.