#clojure – 2013-09-18

2013-09-18

00:53	glosoli	got very silly question here, I have read about deftype and defrecord and it was marked that it compiles down to Java classes, so it got me wondering, what to does clojure code compiles by default?
00:54	callen	fucking netsplits.
00:54	rplaca	clojure compiles to Ja classes all over the place, but not so explicitly as with defrecord and deftype
00:55	rplaca	s/Ja/Java
00:55	glosoli	rplaca: so that's what got me wondering, what's does explicit stand for in such context ?
00:55	TEttinger	glosoli, yeah, if AOT isn't on, you can take a look at the compiled bytecode and what names it gave it in... classes/ , was it?
00:55	rplaca	well, you get a class with a defined set of fields and methods and a name that is "your" name
00:56	TEttinger	stuff like core$_main$iter__18__22$fn__23$fn__24.class
00:56	rplaca	otherwise, things like functions compile to classes, but Clojure picks the names and interfaces that they implement
00:57	rplaca	and the "standard" datatype are predefined classes
00:57	rplaca	that you just use without having to think about it much
00:58	glosoli	interesting thanks!
00:58	rplaca	glosoli: np. enjoy!
02:12	callen	rplaca: if at all
02:21	indigo	Hm, apparently Windows thinks clj files are "Windows Shell Common Dll"s :P
02:23	R_Macy	Silly question, is the dash in front of a function symbol a convention (to show it's private) or language feature? how about a * following a function symbol.
02:23	R_Macy	(I don't mean my-thing, but rather my-thing*)
02:28	R_Macy	In other words, (defn- foo []) is analogues to (defn -foo [])?
02:29	heath	cross-posting we are
02:29	heath	ban him! ;)
02:29	R_Macy	ha
02:33	R_Macy	got an answer to foo* thanks heath (http://www.cliki.net/naming%20conventions)
02:33	R_Macy	still trying to figure out -foo
02:34	heath	https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/rzvMp44ZN0I
02:34	R_Macy	ah so - signifies an entry point
03:19	hhenkel_	Is there a good way (other then multiple if clauses) to check for multiple values in a datastructure and fail if one is missing?
03:20	ambrosebs	hhenkel_: what kind of datastructure?
03:21	ambrosebs	hhenkel_: usually (every? pred coll) works well
03:22	hhenkel_	ambrosebs: a simple map...i'll check "every".
03:23	ambrosebs	hhenkel_: clojure.set has lots of tools that are probably useful too.
03:23	hhenkel_	ambrosebs: how would I notify a user what explicit value is missing there?
03:23	ambrosebs	hhenkel_: (set/difference (set expected) (set actual))
03:24	ambrosebs	\
03:25	hhenkel_	ambrosebs: Ah, that looks exactly like what I've been looking for. Thanks!
03:26	aaelony_	trying to understand the monoid function and why (clojure.core.reducers/fold (clojure.core.reducers/monoid max #(Double/NEGATIVE_INFINITY)) (clojure.core.reducers/map inc (range 10))) works but (clojure.core.reducers/fold (clojure.core.reducers/monoid (juxt min max) #(Double/NEGATIVE_INFINITY)) (clojure.core.reducers/map inc (range 10))) does not....
03:26	ambrosebs	hhenkel_: keep in mind the set ops don't do input validation, it's up to you to ensure you only pass sets.
03:29	hhenkel_	ambrosebs: Yes, thanks, that's a good hint.
03:49	ambrosebs	What is a MetaExpr in the Compiler.java?
03:54	borkdude	yay, my Emacs.app is finally working from brew, using the same live pack as from my other machine :) thanks for the help yesterday evening
03:54	chord	what projects are you guys working on?
03:57	chord	anyone there?
03:59	ucb	hey chord
04:00	chord	we should work on starcraft clone written in clojure
04:00	chord	you gonna help?
04:01	ucb	nah, no time
04:01	ucb	thanks for the offer though
04:02	chord	no time what?
04:02	chord	wtf you wasting your time on
04:02	ucb	heh
04:02	ucb	nice try
04:03	chord	tell me what you're using your time on?
04:04	chord	so you're doing nothing
04:04	chord	tons of free time?
04:05	borkdude	spending time on nothing can be very nice, meditation
04:05	borkdude	it's actually very difficult to do it
04:29	chord	someone talk
04:29	chord	channel is totaly dead
04:32	muhoo	in nrepl.el, is there some way to be able to hit RET on a line in an nrepl error stack trace and go to that line in the file?
04:32	muhoo	cause i'm sure tired of doing it manually :-/
05:14	muhoo	zzzzzz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypKP1BvRZaM
05:25	hhenkel	Why do I get an "IllegalArgumentException Duplicated Key" if I alter the example from http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/merge to have to keys "b" ?
05:26	hhenkel	The text states that this case would be handlet, doesn't it?
05:27	fredyr	the example already has two :b keys doesn't it?
05:27	fredyr	did you add two inside of the map literal perhaps?
05:28	clgv	,(merge {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} {:b 9 :d 4 :b 20})
05:28	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: :b>
05:28	clgv	that?
05:28	clojurebot	that is dumb
05:28	clgv	lol
05:28	ucb	heh
05:28	fredyr	hah
05:28	fredyr	clgv: yeah, that's what i meant
05:28	clgv	,{:b 9 :d 4 :b 20}
05:28	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: :b>
05:28	clgv	&{:b 9 :d 4 :b 20}
05:29	clgv	oh that one is lazy again
05:29	clgv	fredyr: hhenkel: there was a discussion about modifications concerning that behavior on the ML - but I do not recall what they decided finally
05:30	hhenkel	fredyr: You're right my fault....I have to be more attentive...
05:30	fredyr	:)
05:30	fredyr	easy thing to miss
05:32	clgv	hhenkel: fredyr: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md#210-set-and-map-constructor-functions-allow-duplicates
05:32	fredyr	clgv: at least python does allow it -- prolly more of the dynamic languages
05:33	clgv	fredyr: the above notes describe the distinction between literal and constructor functions
05:36	fredyr	,(hash-map :b 1 :a 9 :b 9)
05:36	clojurebot	{:a 9, :b 9}
05:37	fredyr	seems like a pretty good choice
05:38	djcoin	Anyone know how to have the doc of some functiosn in lighttable ? (is it possible to have a nice dialog box somewhere to show the doc when hitting some keys ?)
06:33	hashcat	I wrote ((fn [x y] '(+ x y)) 10 20) and expect it return '(+ 10 20), but it give me '(+ x y)
06:34	hashcat	How can I replace symbols in list?
06:34	llasram	&((fn [x y] `(+ ~x ~y)) 10 20)
06:34	llasram	Oh, no lazybot
06:34	llasram	,((fn [x y] `(+ ~x ~y)) 10 20)
06:34	clojurebot	(clojure.core/+ 10 20)
06:35	hashcat	Thanks
06:35	llasram	hashcat: OOC, what's the higher-level thing you're trying to achieve?
06:36	hashcat	llasram, play with genetic programming
06:37	llasram	Interesting
06:37	hashcat	I'm planning to implement it on distributed system
06:39	hashcat	I'm reading avout and swarmiji for that
06:50	wei_	compojure's (response/file-response "index.html" {:root "resources/public"}) doesn't seem to work inside an uberjar. is there a workaround?
07:04	wei_	to answer my question above: (response/file-response (.getPath (clojure.java.io/resource "public/index.html"))) works inside an uberjar
07:04	muhoo	hmm this seems a stupid name for this function. and doesn't it already exist somehwere under a better name? (defn munge-map-vals [f m] (zipmap (keys m) (->> m vals (map f))))
07:05	ambrosebs	muhoo: probably should be called update-vals
07:06	ambrosebs	muhoo: it's probably around in some utility libs.
07:06	clgv	muhoo: yeah update-vals would be better and using reduce-kv to build the new map faster
07:10	wei_	^ oh wait, actually it doesn't work inside an uberjar :(
07:12	llasram	muhoo: I've seen a similar function named `map-vals` in a few places, including prismatic's plumbing
07:14	muhoo	thanks
07:16	muhoo	ah https://github.com/bendlas/plumbing/blob/master/src/plumbing/core.clj#L32
07:17	mrchance	hi! how do I read all forms from a file? Do I really have to create a PushbackReader, read from it in a loop and wait for exceptions?
07:17	muhoo	i wonder how many clojure utility libraries there are out there. one for every clojure programmer, maybe?
07:17	muhoo	(hell, i have one)
07:17	llasram	mrchance: You can provide a value to return on EOF vs exception, but otherwise -- yes
07:18	mrchance	wow, that is pretty bad. Better than nothing though. Thanks!
07:19	mrchance	@muhoo: I have one too, and every other clj programmer I know does as well
07:19	llasram	mrchance: Well, but your loop can be just (->> (repeatedly ...) (take-while ...))
07:19	mrchance	:)
07:19	muhoo	ooh neat (fn-> foo bar) instead of #(-> % foo bar)
07:19	clgv	mrchance: you could only have one clojure form in that file though - vector or map, containing everything
07:19	mrchance	@llasram: yeah, it's not that bad
07:19	TEttinger	couldn't you just eval?
07:19	mrchance	@clgv: I want to analyse cljs files to autoextract externs
07:20	mrchance	So no single form per file
07:20	llasram	mrchance: BTW, on IRC one generally doesn't prefix people's handles with `@` -- the convention is to just refer to their name by itself
07:20	clgv	ah ok^^
07:20	clgv	might have been a config file scenario ;)
07:20	mrchance	good to know ^^ pretty new to it
07:21	muhoo	a lot of people are used to the twitter machine instead
07:22	mrchance	Hehe, I actually don't use that, don't know what part of my brain produces the @s
07:22	mrchance	Maybe subconcious twitter influence
07:22	clgv	hmm the for-map of plumbing seems pretty non idiomatic using the atom
07:23	mrchance	ah, speaking of non-idiomatic: I want to use clojure.walk to extract the symbols
07:24	clgv	mrchance: maybe the macro expansion walking from zach tellmann or the one of tools.reader is a better fit
07:24	mrchance	hm, yeah
07:24	mrchance	the clojure.walk only seems to have rewrite capabilities
07:24	mrchance	little strange to rewrite the datastructure itself to extract something
07:24	clgv	but it will delete emtadata
07:25	mrchance	thats no problem for me
07:25	clgv	ok.
07:25	clgv	oh, you just want to walk the code unexpanded?
07:26	mrchance	hm, maybe expanded would be nicer, but I see that could be problematic with cljs
07:27	mrchance	Guess interfacing to verbose js libs would be a common usecase for macros
07:28	mrchance	well, I just need a list of all extern functions and members, so I guess I could just process the macro definitions as well
07:30	mrchance	it's really ugly that we have to do the externs by hand
07:30	mrchance	Does anyone know of a project to address this?
07:32	hashcat	llasram: I found a better solution
07:33	hashcat	(cons 'fn (cons '[x y] '((+ x y)) ))
07:34	mrchance	hi ejlo ^^
07:35	clgv	hashcat: you can just build lists normally. no need to use lowlevel cons. equivalent to your above expression: (list 'fn '[x y] '(+ x y))
07:35	hashcat	then I can manipulate the list and eval it during run-time
07:35	hashcat	clgv: Thanks
07:36	hashcat	`(+ ~x ~y) is not going well during run-time
07:37	clgv	hashcat: for fixed templates it should be suitable
07:37	hashcat	clgv: I agree
07:38	clgv	,(let [x 'a, y 'b] `(+ ~x ~y))
07:38	clojurebot	(clojure.core/+ a b)
07:41	tgoossens	Is there a clean way (in existing library) to do this (completely conceptual): (map [:name :country] persons)
07:41	tgoossens	instead of (map #(vector (:name %) (:country %)) persons)
07:42	tgoossens	(i'm just searching a more concise notation for doing the described concept)
07:43	AimHere	If there's no pressing reason to call your function 'map', you could knock up a tiny little macro or function to do it
07:43	andrewmcveigh\|wo	tgoossens: (map (juxt :name :country) persons)
07:43	tgoossens	interesting
07:43	AimHere	Or what he said
07:43	tgoossens	fantastic
07:44	tgoossens	i need to google that (juxtaposition)
07:44	andrewmcveigh\|wo	yep, can be very usefull ;)
07:44	tgoossens	amazing
07:44	tgoossens	thanks a lot
07:45	andrewmcveigh\|wo	np
07:50	seangrov`	I'm thinking about a cljs helper function for error reporting, maybe extending errbit to support this:
07:51	hashcat	is there any alternative to default clojure intepreter?
07:51	hashcat	direction keys behave silly
07:52	seangrov`	Catch the error, send it to your error-reporting service, along with some metadata about what version of your code you're using - then the error-reporting service looks up the source map for the given version (that you've uploaded as part of your deploy process), and all errors are reported in original line numbers/symbols
07:52	seangrov`	It's got to be the obvious next evolution of airbrake/rollbar/errbit and friends, but I don't think any support this properly right now
07:53	seangrov`	Proxino was going to do it, but I don't know what their status is
07:57	seangrov`	I guess rollbar does support it, actually
07:57	seangrov`	Should check it out
08:51	ciphergoth	When using lein repl :connect to a URL, you can authenticate by putting the username and password in the URL. Is there any other way to provide the username and password?
08:59	emil0r	does anyone know how to make the lobos library correctly migrate migrations defined in another project that is in one of your dependencies? i've already tried to redefine lobos.migration/migration-namespace and it's not working when it's from a dependancy. works fine as long as it's inside the project itself
09:38	borkdude	yep, juxt
09:46	clgv	hashcat: what do you mean? the repl? there is leiningen which offers a pretty decent repl via `lein repl`
10:07	mikerod	where could I find the performance properties of doing something like (conj (sorted-set :e :d :c) :a) ?
10:08	mikerod	I haven't came across much information on how "insertions" work on these sorted data structures
10:09	ambrosebs	mikerod: I don't know, but conj is supposed to be the fastest way to do it.
10:11	mikerod	ambrosebs: Hmm I see. I could analyze the source for a while I suppose. I guess I'd assume it is a "fairly" efficient mechanism, as opposed to just resorting a whole new collection.
10:11	mikerod	That much is obvious after a quick glance.
10:11	ambrosebs	mikerod: all of Clojure's data structures use structural sharing to some degree.
10:11	hyPiRion	sorted-sets are just persistent rb-trees afaik, they have O(log n) time complexity for insertion
10:12	mikerod	ambrosebs: yeah that is a good point.
10:12	mikerod	hyPiRion: thanks, it does look like the are rb-trees
10:18	ciphergoth	I'm trying to use "lein repl :connect https://..." to connect to a Heroku instance. It prints "Connecting to nREPL at https://..." and then hangs. When I ^Z and kill it, it prints "Welcome back!" before it dies. How can I diagnose what's going on?
10:20	aatifh	Hi, has anyone ever tried django xadmin(https://github.com/sshwsfc/django-xadmin) and managed to run it successfully? I really liked the themes and plugins but facing some issues. Thanks in advance.
10:21	aatifh	Humble apology. Wrong channel!
10:33	ambrosebs	Bronsa: should jvm.tools.analyzer reset the current namespace to clojure.core or user (or similar) before analyzing a file?
10:33	ambrosebs	Bronsa: how does CinC handle it?
10:34	dnolen	ambrosebs: fwiw in CLJS we reset to cljs.user
10:35	ambrosebs	dnolen: ok. That's good enough for me.
10:35	Bronsa	ambrosebs: Compiler.java only relies on the current value of ns and so does CinC
10:35	ambrosebs	Bronsa: hmm ok :)
10:35	clj_newb_2345	if I have 1 quad-core Xenon, the JVM can use all 4 cores. If I have 2 Quad-Core Xenon on Ubnutu Linux, does the JVM use all 8 cores, or is each "linux process" limited to just 1 CPU?
10:36	ambrosebs	Bronsa: I find the ns form is usually in some random namespace after I analyze a file.
10:36	dnolen	ambrosebs: CLJS is a bit odd if we ever intend to support (load-file ...)
10:36	ambrosebs	dnolen: yes, I just considered that.
10:37	Bronsa	ambrosebs: what do you mean?
10:38	Bronsa	ambrosebs: fwiw clojure special-cases the resolution of `ns` to clojure.core/ns
10:38	ambrosebs	Bronsa: I mean the :env of the first form that's analyzed claims it's from the current namespace.
10:38	ambrosebs	Bronsa: which is a bit odd.
10:40	Bronsa	well, if ns is user and you encounter (ns foo), the form (ns foo) is effectively in the user namespace
10:42	ambrosebs	Bronsa: yes. Is that how load works in Clojure?
10:42	Bronsa	ambrosebs: yeah, it just evals all the form of the file in the current ns
10:43	ambrosebs	it doesn't sound like something I need to worry about then.
10:43	clgv	clj_newb_2345: you can use all cores
10:43	clj_newb_2345	even across different CPUS?
10:43	clj_newb_2345	linux + java just handles this for me behind the scenes?
10:43	jtoy	how does one redeploy with ring and not have the site hang while its deploying? on rails for example you can let teh old process contineu to run until the new one is fully up
10:43	clgv	your operating system linux does it
10:43	jtoy	with ring I kill the old process, then start the new process, that is at least 30 seconds on my box
10:48	clgv	jtoy: the technical problem is the exclusive use of the port right?
10:50	clgv	jtoy: you could have a "facade process" on the actual port that forwards to your application. when you make the target application configurable you can let the old one running, start the new one, switch and kill the old one
11:01	TimMc	It's called a reverse proxy.
11:03	clgv	TimMc: ah thx ^^
11:04	jtoy	clgv: is there any library that does this already?
11:05	clgv	jtoy: no idea.
11:05	arrdem	jtoy: what are you proxying? http?
11:06	TimMc	You can even see some repeat prefixes: Kingmaxj1w6 Kingmaxm3o8 Helloxaod97 Hellodgjm30
11:06	TimMc	Bah, wrong channel.
11:06	jtoy	arrdem: yes htttp, I do have nginx in front currently
11:06	arrdem	jtoy: nginx can do some selective proxying, but I've also used clj-proxy
11:08	jtoy	arrdem: ist caleld selective proxying?
11:08	arrdem	jtoy: I don't remember, but it's in the sample configs site
11:08	jtoy	ok, thanks
11:11	jtoy	arrdem: I dont see anything called clj proxy, is it a different library?
11:13	arrdem	jtoy: sorry I always get the name wrong. it's ring-proxy.
11:13	arrdem	$google ring-proxy
11:14	arrdem	jtoy: this https://github.com/tailrecursion/ring-proxy
11:15	arrdem	jtoy: I'm sure that nginx is impericaly faster, but that's really easy to get running.
11:20	jtoy	arrdem: yeah, i will probably use nginx, i just wanted to see how it would work through pure clojure
11:20	silasdavis	how do you test if a value is callable?
11:21	arrdem	silasdavis: &(fn? #(:foo %1))
11:21	mdrogalis	,(doc ifn?)
11:21	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x implements IFn. Note that many data structures (e.g. sets and maps) implement IFn"
11:21	silasdavis	thanks
11:21	mdrogalis	I think IFn <-> Callable ?
11:21	arrdem	,(doc fn?)
11:21	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x implements Fn, i.e. is an object created via fn."
11:22	silasdavis	mdrogalis, so all methods are nil-returning IFns?
11:23	silasdavis	uhm 'pure methods' I mean
11:26	mdrogalis	silasdavis: Eh?
11:26	mdrogalis	Confused :)
11:26	arrdem	,(cannuc? 'mdrogalis)
11:26	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: cannuc? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:27	silasdavis	I'm wondering about whether a void java method would implement IFn in clojure
11:27	mdrogalis	arrdem: No sir. :)
11:27	silasdavis	or whether only explicit implementers of IFn would
11:27	mdrogalis	silasdavis: No, I'm afraid not.
11:27	mdrogalis	Yeah, the latter.
11:28	silasdavis	in which cast callable != IFn
11:28	mdrogalis	Must be the latter then.
11:29	silasdavis	(I was only actually after ifn? in this case anyway)
11:29	mdrogalis	Ah, try this.
11:30	mdrogalis	,(instance? java.util.concurrent.Callable inc)
11:30	clojurebot	true
11:30	mdrogalis	That should do it.
11:38	manutter	Are there any libs that let you set up arbitrary events, register handlers, and then trigger the events? I'm thinking server-side, not anything javascripty
11:45	egghead	manutter: you wight want to check out rxjava for clj, or core.async
11:46	manutter	Thanks, I've looked at core.async but not rxjava, I'll check it out.
11:47	manutter	I'm working on something similar, I'm just checking for other libs that might overlap with what I'm doing.
11:48	egghead	ah, then you might want to also look at lamina
12:04	BlankVerse	how do I reload a clojure android app in repl(using lein droid)
12:07	manutter	egghead: cool, thanks much. Gonna look at lamina some more in any case. :)
12:07	clgv	if I have a long running process in a thread that prints to stdout which is sent from nrepl server to my nrepl client. after the client disconnects, does the nrepl server still attempt to send the output to the client?
12:09	clgv	ok the answer is, it dies with socket closed exception...
12:23	BlankVerse	(use 'foo.bar :reload-all) should reload and display changes made to foo.bar..
12:24	BlankVerse	(use 'org.stuff.clojuroid.main :reload-all)
12:24	BlankVerse	nil
12:24	BlankVerse	should it return nil?
12:25	BlankVerse	(load-file "src/org/stuff/clojuroid/mail.clj")
12:25	BlankVerse	ErrnoException open failed: ENOENT (No such file or directory) libcore.io.Posix.open (Posix.java:-2)
12:33	clgv	BlankVerse: yes, it should return nil
12:45	BlankVerse	clgv: it means the module is reloaded?
12:45	clgv	BlankVerse: there will be exceptions if something went wrong
12:45	BlankVerse	clgv: on the repl?
12:46	BlankVerse	or logcat
12:46	clgv	BlankVerse: tools.namespace is a library that tries to do proper reloading
12:46	clgv	I dont know what logcat is
12:47	clgv	,(let [f (fn [] (throw (Exception.)))] (f))
12:47	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception>
12:47	BlankVerse	its android logger , my clojure repl is running on android and I am trying to reload my clojure app from repl
12:47	clgv	looks similar to this ^^ in the repl ;)
12:47	BlankVerse	clgv: ok, this comes when i do (load-file "src/org/stuff/clojuroid/mail.clj")
12:48	clgv	BlankVerse: oh, I never used clojure on android. in normal clojure you'd usually see the exception reported in the repl
12:49	moquist	lein says "Could not reserve enough space for object heap / Could not create the Java virtual machine." googling gave me "-d64 -XX:MaxHeapSize=256m" opts for java, and that works if I already have a .jar. But now 'lein uberjar' gives me the same message, and adding ':jvm-opts ["-d64" "-XX:MaxHeapSize=256m"]' to my project.clj didn't help... I'm not sure what to try next.
12:49	coventry2	BlankVerse: I notice that you have "(use 'org.stuff.clojuroid.main)" in your first form, but are loading mail.clj in the second one. (Might be behind; I was reading from the IRC log.)
12:51	coventry2	moquist: Try running "DEBUG=true lein uberjar" to make sure the options are getting passed through.
12:51	moquist
12:51	moquist	oops, wrong window focused...
12:52	moquist	coventry2: that just told me "Leiningen's classpath: :/home/moquist/.lein/self-installs/leiningen-2.1.2-standalone.jar", in addition to the same message
12:53	BlankVerse	coventry2: ah thanks a lot!
12:53	moquist	coventry2: I'm assuming lein doesn't get as far as reading project.clj, since the JVM never starts.
12:54	coventry2	Yeah, I guess so.
12:54	BlankVerse	now , it give java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: complete.core
12:54	moquist	coventry2: FWIW: http://pastebin.com/qS0VE3f6
12:55	coventry2	moquist: Try passing the opts in the env var LEIN_JVM_OPTS.
12:55	moquist	coventry2: YAY! That's what I was looking for.
12:55	moquist	I was looking around for java env vars, but didn't look for lein env vars.
12:56	moquist	coventry2: many thanks.
12:56	coventry2	lein is just a bash script. Easy to read.
13:09	`cbp	If I have a defprotocol on namespace A, a defrecord + extend-type on namespace B, and I wanna use those methods on namespace C what do I have to import/require?
13:09	`cbp	This is confusing me so much :P
13:14	maleghast	Anyone know how to set up a Clojure / Compojure web app to treat all strings as UTF-8..?
13:14	mdrogalis	`cbp: I believe you need to require the protocol from A, and important the defrecord from B.
13:14	mtp	maleghast: what are the defaults?
13:15	maleghast	I am unsure, but the app in question is receiving UTF-8 text and mis-rendering it
13:17	`cbp	I am requiring the protocol + method from A, requiring B, importing the defrecord from B and it's not working :P
13:17	justin_smith	`cbp: I think it is import a, require b
13:18	justin_smith	since a definies the java thing (the protocol), and all you need from b are functions that create the records (so require suffices)
13:19	`cbp	extend-type puts the record methods on the namespace that created has the defprotocol though
13:23	maleghast	mtp: I have to log off in a couple of minutes… Thanks anyway, I'll do some Googling ;-)
13:23	slpsys_	part
13:23	amalloy	maleghast: utf-8 is the default character encoding when java converts bytes to chars/strings
13:24	amalloy	your app is probably receiving text encoded in some other way, not utf-8
13:24	amalloy	or serving it right and your browser is mis-rendering it
13:24	maleghast	amalloy: ok, the payload I'm getting is serialised with MessagePack - I will look there...
13:26	justin_smith	`cbp: http://sprunge.us/iHZH?clojure minimal example I just cranked out of how to do it
13:26	justin_smith	you use ns.protocol in the defstruct ns/protocol-method to invoke it
13:30	mheld	is there an analogous command for lein/compojure to 'rake routes' in the ruby/rails world?
13:31	weavejester	mheld: Remind us what that does :)
13:32	mheld	weavejester: tells us what routes are defined
13:32	weavejester	mheld: In that case, no, at least not in Compojure's case. The routing mechanism for Compojure is very flexible, but essentially opaque.
13:33	indigo	mheld: Ah, using Clojure for web as well? ;)
13:34	weavejester	I think there is room for a routing library that's data-based. One that could be queried, but one that's less flexible than Compojure.
13:34	weavejester	Pedestal has something like that, but I don't think it's a separate library.
13:35	mheld	indigo: yeah!
13:35	mheld	weavejester: over time, I do wish to contribute to the web-ness of clojure but for now I just need to finish this project ;-)
13:39	`cbp	justin_smith: thanks I have something wrong but I dont know what :P
13:41	justin_smith	`cbp: was the example I pasted unclear?
13:41	justin_smith	I guess I didn't have the requires and imports
13:42	`cbp	justin_smith: I tried it on a repl adding the requires and imports as I have them and it works so that's why I don't know what's wrong :P
13:42	indigo	mheld: Yeah I'm just getting started in it... it's such a relief after what I do at work
13:42	justin_smith	a.Foo would be imported, a/bar and b/->baz would be required
13:43	dobry-den	rasmusto: Dude this is great. ~/dotfiles with a `make link`.
13:43	rasmusto	dobry-den: <3
13:44	`cbp	justin_smith: import doesnt work on defprotocol
13:44	rasmusto	dobry-den: glad it worked for you :)
13:49	mheld	why is it so hard to figure out how to accept JSON with my clojure app!?
13:50	mheld	god damn it
13:50	Apage43	accept json?
13:50	konr`	what framework are you using?
13:50	augustl	mheld: cheshire.core/parse-string? :)
13:50	Apage43	^^
13:51	justin_smith	mheld: there is also a ring middleware for incoming json
13:51	augustl	or parse-stream
13:51	mheld	justin_smith: I've been trying to use it but alas, none of the json gets parsed
13:51	augustl	mheld: what exactly is the problem?
13:51	mheld	I'll poke around with cheshire
13:51	augustl	note that most servlet containers expose the :body as a read once stream
13:51	augustl	mheld: ^^
13:52	dobry-den	why use chesire instead of just clojure.data.json/read-str
13:52	justin_smith	`cbp: user> (import (a Foo)) => a.Foo
13:52	justin_smith
13:52	Apage43	if you're using the middleware, it'll only take effect if you send stuff as Content-Type: application/json (or similar)
13:52	justin_smith	dobry-den: clojure.data.json is terrible
13:52	dobry-den	justin_smith: in what way?
13:52	seangrove	Seems like a complicated way to tokenize + parse https://github.com/AdamBrodzinski/RedScript/blob/master/lib/compile.js
13:52	ro_st	justin_smith: are you sure? stuartsierra has worked on it recently
13:52	justin_smith	dobry-den: the api is unstable
13:52	konr`	clojure.data.json can't serialize dates, uuids etc
13:53	ro_st	konr`: isn't that true of JSON generally?
13:53	mheld	curl -X POST localhost:3000/pingbacks -d{hi:'marc'} -> (POST "/pingbacks" {body :body} (create-pingback body)) doesn't return anything (create-pingback is just an identity function right now)
13:53	Apage43	curl -X POST -H "Content-Type: application/json"
13:53	technomancy	ro_st: there's no standard way to do it, but that shouldn't mean it's impossible
13:54	mheld	Apage43: that did it
13:54	ro_st	what i mean is, JSON doesn't support like edn does
13:54	mheld	Apage43: gracias
13:54	justin_smith	ro_st: I have seen cheshire be much more sensible with data coercions than data.json
13:54	konr`	ro_st: yes, but cheshire can transform an UUID into its string without much hassle
13:54	ro_st	you have to roll your own
13:54	Apage43	and whatever other doodads you hit that API with should have ways to set the request body content type as well
13:55	justin_smith	ro_st: roll your own, or just use cheshire who rolled it for you
13:55	`cbp	justin_smith: it tells me "interface a.Foo is not a protocol" when I try to import
13:55	technomancy	of course the idea of keeping a UUID around as a separate type distinct from strings in your codebase itself is fairly suspect anyway unless you're concerned about memory usage
13:55	ro_st	wasn't aware chesire added that
13:56	augustl	stringly typed programs ftw :)
13:56	ro_st	heh
13:56	Apage43	the nice thing about cheshire is you can extend it
13:56	ro_st	we're lucky enough to use EDN everywhere
13:56	Apage43	so if you have some wacky type buried in a big nested map, you can just teach cheshire about the type rather than try to fix it on the way in
13:57	jtoy	can anyone tell me why when I run this code, it never prints out and results is always an empty list: https://www.refheap.com/18767
13:57	ro_st	that's handy
13:57	jtoy	I know it has to do with laziness, but im not sure how to fix it
13:57	`cbp	curse clojure error messages :(
13:57	ro_st	jtoy: wrap (for) in (doall)
13:57	ro_st	nothing consumes the result of the for and so the laziness is never realised
13:58	ro_st	or do thing (for ..)] (println thing) ...
13:58	konr`	ro_st: what do you use on the front-end?
13:59	ro_st	cljs :-)
13:59	jtoy	ro_st later on in my code I do run (/ (reduce + (map :precision results) ) k) which should realize it?
13:59	dobry-den	in a real app youd consume `results`. so id just wrap (doall results) temporarily to see it
13:59	konr`	any specific library/framework?
13:59	amalloy	ro_st: if results is empty, wrapping it in doall won't make a difference
13:59	ro_st	konr`: a shoreleave-pubsub + enfocus lashup
14:00	dobry-den	yeah that's a good point, wouldnt it be LazySeq if that was so
14:00	ro_st	next iteration will be a pedestal app
14:00	ro_st	amalloy: true
14:00	konr`	cool! I've been trying to push cljs here as well :)
14:00	ro_st	konr`: the awesome bit is really reusing code server/client
14:01	ro_st	the same code that produces the data on the client also consumes it on the server
14:02	justin_smith	`cbp: can you paste a simple repl session that creates the error you are getting?
14:02	konr`	using shoreleave, right?
14:02	konr`	any specific reason you are trying pedestal-app?
14:04	augustl	angular and ember has shown that separating generating data to represent UI state and updating DOM elements is awesomesauce. Pedestal works similarly, except clojure, and with great architecture, and functional :)
14:05	ro_st	konr`: pedestal-app is a slam dunk for our app
14:06	ro_st	it does properly the things that i ended up doing (very) naively in our current app
14:06	ro_st	event sourcing user data, using queues to ship data back and forth, etc
14:07	ro_st	i just did it badly because i used loads of atoms and pubsub and essentially made some clojure spaghetti :-)
14:08	ro_st	still, it's only 2k loc of spaghetti instead of the 11k of google closure spaghetti i had written before finding clojure
14:09	noncom	if i do (spit "some-file.file" (str "hello\nhow\nare\nyou?)), the resulting file contains the string like it is here, with the \n characters in it. how do I make them into real newlines?
14:09	`cbp	justin_smith: ... lol
14:10	AimHere	noncom > You sure? It works the way you intend it to, for me
14:11	konr`	noncom: strange, (spit "/tmp/foo" (str "hello\nhow\nare\nyou?")) did create a file with newlines here, too
14:11	`cbp	justin_smith: Apparently I had an error somewhere else and the protocol cache (didn't know about that) never updated so it never found the methods I defined. I did lein clean after fixing that other error and everything starts working -_-
14:11	noncom	hmmm, maybe it's because you're on linux and i am on windows?
14:11	AimHere	How are you reading the file?
14:11	noncom	windows uses \n\r
14:12	noncom	i am not reading, i want to write a string to a new file
14:12	AimHere	I think it's \r\n, but it's been a while
14:12	AimHere	Yeah, but it might be that the way you're reading the file is turning the 'newlines back into '\n's
14:12	AimHere	The windows thing is more likely though
14:13	`cbp	justin_smith: thanks for your help :P
14:13	noncom	oh i just open it with an editor..
14:13	justin_smith	`cbp: I think maybe some stuff technomancy has been doing with trying to reduce startup time has been making lein clean more neccissary. That's just speculation on my part though. Maybe I am doing more protocol and macro changes than usual lately.
14:14	callen	`cbp: stop using protocols unnecessarily :P
14:14	justin_smith	`cbp: no prob
14:59	mdeboard	Anyone else in this datomic deal at strangeloop
14:59	mdeboard	please stand up and announce yourself
15:01	konr`	what datomic deal?
15:01	mdeboard	datomic intro session
15:02	callen	so. jealous.
15:02	callen	not only is Rich talking about core.async, but there's a datomic session? :(
15:11	callen	That sad, sad moment when you realize you're going to have to write a manual loop/recur instead of using clojure.walk/walk for your problem. http://i.imgur.com/wQPAsdN.gif
15:24	bracki_	How do I look up docs on thing like # or @?
15:25	mdrogalis	bracki_: Those symbols are sugar for dispatch-macro and deref.
15:26	mdrogalis	bracki_: Also, the dispatch macro, being a reader macro, is a little special. It doesn't have a ClojureDoc bit associated with it.
15:26	Bracki	So what is the dispatch-macro useful for?
15:27	coventry	Bracki: You can get the nomenclature for them out of tools.reader: https://github.com/clojure/tools.reader/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/reader.clj#L543
15:27	mdrogalis	Bracki: Utilizing the Lisp Reader.
15:27	Bracki	mdrogalis: what?
15:27	mdrogalis	Control+f for Dispatch (#) http://clojure.org/reader
15:29	Bracki	So take #'f for example. All it does is expand to (var f). Why is that useful?
15:31	mdrogalis	Bracki: That's really just sugar. It becomes useful when you want to extend Clojure itself.
15:31	mdrogalis	The quote after the hash is meaningful.
15:31	mdrogalis	I can put another character after the hash and make it mean whatever I want.
15:31	mdrogalis	#(inc %) <- The ( after the # is significant, in the same manner.
15:31	coventry	mdrogalis: I thought clojure doesn't really have reader macros.
15:32	mdrogalis	coventry: It has one, but it doesn't support user defined reader macros.
15:32	mdrogalis	Just one extensible one.
15:33	coventry	Can you give an example of giving whatever character follows # an arbitrary meaning?
15:33	TimMc	data-readers
15:33	TimMc	But it doesn't have the kind of control you're thinking of.
15:33	mdrogalis	,#uuid "803e1294-c4bd-4c89-bbbf-501f992caffb"
15:33	clojurebot	#uuid "803e1294-c4bd-4c89-bbbf-501f992caffb"
15:34	mdrogalis	#xxxxuuid "803e1294-c4bd-4c89-bbbf-501f992caffb"
15:34	mdrogalis	UUID is defined too.
15:34	mdrogalis	The xxx one failed because thats not defined.
15:34	coventry	Oh, OK, I thought you meant something more general than that.
15:34	TimMc	No, it failed because you forgot the comma. :-P
15:34	mdrogalis	TimMc: lolol Facepalm Nice.
15:34	TimMc	,#xxxxuuid "803e1294-c4bd-4c89-bbbf-501f992caffb"
15:34	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: No reader function for tag xxxxuuid>
15:34	mdrogalis	Thanks
15:34	mdrogalis	Warning: Fatigue has indeed set in.
15:35	seangrov`	,#{1 1 1 1 1 1 3 3 3 3 2}
15:35	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: 1>
15:37	Bracki	,#'
15:37	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
15:37	Bracki	,#'partial
15:37	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/partial
15:38	mdrogalis	#' is sugar, no meaning on its own.
15:38	mdrogalis	`var`, on the other hand, does.
15:39	seangrov`	,(var partial)
15:39	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/partial
15:39	Bracki	,(doc var)
15:39	clojurebot	I don't understand.
15:39	seangrov`	It's just common(-ish) to want to grab vars, hence there's a built-in reader macros to make the syntax more terse
15:40	bja	is there a way to determine what namespace I'm running in for my clojurescript code?
15:40	seangrov`	bja: Namespaces aren't available at runtime in cljs, sadly
15:40	Bracki	When do I need vars?
15:40	seangrov`	I'm not totally clear why not, if it's just an implementation detail or it's fundamentally not possible
15:41	bja	is there a way I could find out where I'm running (or what required me) from google closure library?
15:41	Bracki	http://clojure.org/special_forms#Special Forms--(var symbol) is not very helpful.
15:42	seangrov`	bja: What are you trying to do?
15:42	bja	figure out the namespace my function is in for logging purposes
15:42	seangrov`	Ah, well, there's ns in clojure, but not clojurescript, I believe
15:44	coventry	I wonder if you could just persuade the cljs ns macro to drop a ns var in the specified namespace.
15:45	seangrov`	coventry: Interesting idea!
15:48	seangrov`	I don't know what ns offers in clj-jvm though, I suppose it may have some special properties that js objects don't have
15:51	timsg	anyone use org-babel much? the documentation's a bit weird, I'm trying to figure out how to eval source blocks that contain noweb refs
15:52	dnolen	timsg: probably more responses to that question in #emacs
15:54	timsg	dnolen: yeah, I'll look there
16:00	AimHere	Hmm. Being a good little functional programmer, I want to send a function as a parameter to a method in a class declared using gen-class, but apparently I have to declare the arguments beforehand; Since (class <function name>) returns just the name of the function, that's not really useful. Is there a way of doing this that I've missed, or will I have to use some clunky workaround?
16:01	coventry	seangrov`: People might expect (binding [ns ns] foo) to execute foo in ns, which might be bad.
16:01	`cbp	Is there a way to clear the protocol method cache? :(
16:04	`cbp	freaking protocols just lead to madness and despair
16:05	TimMc	AimHere: The function will be called from Clojure?
16:05	AimHere	Yeah
16:05	TimMc	You could describe it as a Fn, or even just an Object.
16:06	Apage43	,(supers (fn []))
16:06	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: sandbox$eval29$fn__30 cannot be cast to java.lang.Class>
16:06	muhoo	`cbp: it seems less janky on cljs
16:06	Apage43	,(supers (class (fn [])))
16:06	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.Fn clojure.lang.AFn java.util.Comparator java.util.concurrent.Callable clojure.lang.AFunction ...}
16:07	muhoo	not sure why. maybe because then you're not fighting the jvm, i guess
16:07	AimHere	Phew, I was worried I might have to dig up some boneheaded java pattern to wrap the function in!
16:11	`cbp	Apparently I was requiring/importing in the wrong order or heck i don't know :P
16:11	`cbp	I should write this down somewhere
16:38	squidz	would there be an easy way to export a csv file with clojurescript?
16:38	squidz	I dont' really want to add an additional library if I can keep it simple
16:41	nDuff	squidz: there's more to CSV than just comma separation -- there are quoting and escaping rules and such.
16:42	nDuff	squidz: ...if you want something that really does it right, a third-party library is probably the right approach. If you just want to split lines by commas, well, that's trivial. :)
16:43	squidz	nDuff, it doesnt have to be fancy i will only have number values along with a header
16:43	dnolen	squidz: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14964035/how-to-export-javascript-array-info-to-csv-on-client-side ?
16:43	squidz	and the first column will be text(kind of like a vertical header), but other than that everything will be numeric
16:44	squidz	thanks dnolen that is exactly what I was looking for.
16:46	rasmusto	is there a consensus on whether to keep example code in source clj files? I'd like to have good documentation in docstrings, but runnable snippets make sense too
16:47	rasmusto	Should I put (comment) blocks after the code I want examples for or use separate namespace (or something else)?
16:49	coventry	rasmusto: It's nice if you can make tests out of the examples.
16:51	hyPiRion	rasmusto: http://stevelosh.com/blog/2013/09/teach-dont-tell/
16:53	lpetit	hello
16:53	lpetit	I have weird behaviors while using zippers
16:54	lpetit	I don't know exactly how, but I've managed to get a loc whose node is nil, that's weird
16:56	dnolen	rasmusto: I think people generally try to avoid the clutter. I like it in the early stages of development.
16:57	rasmusto	coventry: Okay, I like the idea of unit tests that double as documentation
16:58	rasmusto	hyPiRion: will give it a read, I saw it a while back but didn't finish :)
16:58	amalloy	lpetit: what's weird about a nil node? depending on what kind of zipper you've defined, that's perfectly reasonable, right?
16:58	coventry	FWIW, it says that relying on tests for documentation is a terrible idea. :-)
16:59	rasmusto	dnolen: I have a bunch of namespaces that I gitignore that have fragments of my runnable code in them, I tried to keep them out of controlled files, but now I want to be able to share
17:00	rasmusto	dnolen: I also had the "benefit" of being the only one writing code in its early stages, so those snippets didn't need to be shared until now
17:00	dnolen	rasmusto: I don't see the point most people won't look at your source
17:01	lpetit	amalloy: well, yes, with my zipper, my guess is that it's not: https://gist.github.com/laurentpetit/6615228
17:01	rasmusto	dnolen: true, I think I'll go the teachable unit test route, which should benefit me personally in the long run
17:02	lpetit	amalloy: I think I should only get nodes which are Strings, or maps, a-la zip.xml map
17:02	lpetit	Contemplating creating a t-shirt named "Zippers: you're doing it completely wrong", at least addressed to me ;-)
17:03	tbaldridge	lpetit: it doesn't help that zippers need to be re-written (using protocols). I said I'd do it once, never did.
17:03	lpetit	tbaldridge: never too late ;-)
17:20	crocket	Is there a good way to handle modularity in clojure?
17:21	tbaldridge	crocket: namespaces?
17:22	crocket	tbaldridge, namespaces don't solve modularity problem.
17:22	crocket	namespaces solve name collision problem only.
17:22	tbaldridge	please explain the problem you are trying to solve
17:22	tbaldridge	"handle modularity" is too broad
17:22	hyPiRion	explaining what you mean by modularity would help
17:24	bja	fwiw, I figured out how to find my current namespace in clojurescript: https://gist.github.com/emidln/bd33d9c0b40d20f60508
17:25	crocket	I have OSGi in mind when it comes to modularity.
17:29	tbaldridge	crocket: perhaps look into using queues with multiple servers/JVMs. Allows you to start/restart/update nodes on the fly without taking down other parts of the system
17:30	crocket	tbaldridge, queues?
17:30	crocket	Do you mean network queues?
17:32	tbaldridge	crocket: yes, kafka, ZeroMQ, RabbitMQ, etc.
17:32	crocket	tbaldridge, ZeroMQ is my bet.
17:32	tbaldridge	if you don't need reliable/durable message passing
17:32	crocket	However, using OSGi would be easier to work with than ZeroMQ in general.
17:33	tbaldridge	crocket: but it also is a slightly outdated model in which it is cheaper to put everything on one server. If that JVM/server dies, you loose everything and what good is modularity then?
17:33	crocket	tbaldridge, modularity still holds.
17:34	crocket	fault tolerance isn't the only benefit.
17:34	crocket	Being able to swap a module on the fly is good.
17:34	crocket	Being able to mix and match is good, too.
17:34	tbaldridge	crocket: not as good as being able to swap an entire server on the fly.
17:35	crocket	tbaldridge, I think OSGi and Message queue can be used together for maximal modularity.
17:35	crocket	What about akka?
17:36	tbaldridge	actor systems are like the system I described, but it attaches the queues to the processes. So if the process dies, you loose the queue.
17:37	crocket	tbaldridge, Why is OSGi a slightly outdated model?
17:38	tbaldridge	The old model assumed that you would run monolithic servers in-house. These days with AWS and other cloud services, it's not uncommon to run many small VMs. With smaller VMs you can start/stop the entire machine at will.
17:38	tbaldridge	no need for all the overhead/complexity of a module system.
17:39	tbaldridge	Even then, some companies these days will kill the entire VM (even delete the disk) on a software upgrade.
17:39	crocket	tbaldridge, You're talking in terms of administrator.
17:39	crocket	That's valid case.
17:40	crocket	However, in developers' point of view, code modularity can be harder with ZeroMQ.
17:40	tbaldridge	or even on a hour by hour basis, see Elastic Bean Stalk, the load balancer has the power to kill/start nodes as the load on the cluster changes
17:40	tbaldridge	*Beanstalk
17:40	tbaldridge	crocket: why do you need code modularity?
17:41	crocket	tbaldridge, coders need code modularity.
17:41	tbaldridge	why?
17:41	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
17:41	tbaldridge	thanks clojurebot
17:41	crocket	non-modular code is difficult.
17:42	tbaldridge	Right, that's where namespaces come in, imo. Or even in-process queues like core.async. Functional programming also helps as each function is isolated from the state of the system.
17:42	tbaldridge	It's also very common in Clojure to split out your system into many smaller libraries, that helps as well. No need for a complicated module management system.
17:42	crocket	tbaldridge, namespaces don't solve modularity problem.
17:43	crocket	tbaldridge, namespaces solve a part of it, name collisions.
17:43	crocket	name collision is a symptom of non-modularity.
17:43	tbaldridge	crocket: they also allow you to logically split out your code into smaller parts
17:44	TimMc	UUIDs solve all name collisions.
17:44	crocket	tbaldridge, I'll have to experiment with ZeroMQ and OSGi and see which works.
17:45	crocket	tbaldridge, a complicated module management system helps you deal with managing library dependencies. But I'm not aware of tradeoffs yet.
17:45	jstew	/
17:45	crocket	To get a hand in tradeoffs, I have to use it.
17:46	tbaldridge	crocket: take a look at lein, library dependencies is what it was designed to handle.
17:46	crocket	tbaldridge, Do you use message queues a lot for modularity?
17:47	tbaldridge	crocket: yes, both for inter-process/VM communication, as well as inner-process. See http://github.com/clojure/core.async for the latter
17:48	crocket	tbaldridge, What do you use for IPC?
17:48	tbaldridge	core.async
17:48	tbaldridge	ah sorry, wrong thing
17:49	tbaldridge	ZeroMQ if I don't need reliable message passing, RabbitMQ if I do.
17:49	tbaldridge	or even just plain old REST if I don't need a queue
17:49	crocket	meh
17:49	crocket	tbaldridge, What do you mean by REST?
17:50	tbaldridge	as in I structure my code as a collection of services that serve up HTTP, with EDN as the transport.
17:52	tbaldridge	crocket: also think about what it would be like to build Systems the way NetFlix does it: any node should be able to fail at any time.
17:52	tbaldridge	So they actually have a script called Chaos Monkey that randomly kills servers, if problems occur, you have issues with your design: http://techblog.netflix.com/2012/07/chaos-monkey-released-into-wild.html
17:53	crocket	tbaldridge, How do they manage processes?
17:53	tbaldridge	they don't, they manage servers. They run on AWS, and have many, many VMs. The script kills the entire VM.
17:54	crocket	oh jesus
17:54	crocket	I don't have a luxury of many VMs.
17:55	crocket	I'm a poor man left with a single server.
17:55	tbaldridge	So back to your original question, everyone builds their Clojure systems differently, that's my preferred approach.
17:56	crocket	tbaldridge, Do they use OSGi with clojure?
17:57	tbaldridge	no. also see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/Ro9WO0USGTM
17:57	rasmusto	lazybot: wb
17:58	crocket	tbaldridge, REPL?
17:58	tbaldridge	http://tryclj.com/
17:58	tbaldridge	that's a repl
17:59	crocket	How is REPL related to OSGi?
17:59	lazybot	rasmusto: Thanks.
18:00	tbaldridge	crocket: Clojure is a dynamic language, so they're stating in that mailing list thread that OGSi is somewhat hindered by the fact that Clojure programmers can re-define functions at a whim
18:00	tbaldridge	It's even possible to to fire up a REPL on a remote box and dig around in the service while it's running
18:02	bja	exceptions to my system get flagged in sentry with information that makes it possible for me to repl in and recreate the scenario on the fly
18:02	bja	I'm pretty sure I can't go back to doing it another way
18:07	crocket	tbaldridge, If you need to build a big program from modules, OSGi is still an answer.
18:14	tbaldridge	crocket: I'm just saying, I've seen Clojure used in some really massive systems. I have yet to hear of anyone using OSGi in production
18:19	jtoy	is this the recommended way to serialize clojure objects? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1288877/what-would-be-the-correct-way-to-serialize-this-java-object-in-clojure i see it is 4 years old
18:23	Apage43	jtoy: I wouldn't. Use pr-str and clojure.edn/read-string
18:24	jtoy	Apage43: cool, I will try that, the object is maps of maps, i think that should be fine ,the other issue is it is about a gig in size
18:24	Apage43	http://clojure.github.io/clojure/branch-master/clojure.edn-api.html http://clojure.github.io/clojure/branch-master/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/pr-str
18:48	TimMc	brehaut: I have been infected with a taste for dubstep. D-:
18:49	brehaut	TimMc: that sounds unhealthy!
18:49	jave	hello
18:50	TimMc	It's all technomancy's fault. He pointed me to a chiptune-ish album that had some dubstep hiding in it.
18:50	wink	which one? :P
18:51	brehaut	lol
18:51	wink	more for the chiptune part actually
18:51	brehaut	TimMc: you sure it wasnt just a malfunctioning hard disk?
18:51	Raynes	TimMc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjx1PVdsVvk Take one of these twice a day.
18:51	callen	brehaut: if 20-somethings are stomping the floor, it's dubstep. If a greybeard is stomping the floor, a server's hard drive is failing.
18:52	callen	The More You Know ☆彡
18:52	wink	lol
18:53	jave	if I'm going to expose a number of clojure methods to java with :gen-class, what is the convention? Do I wrap functions with new functions with - in front of the name?
18:59	mlb-	why is my test-atom not "Hello {:msg \"hello world\", :type \"log\"}" ? https://gist.github.com/mlb-/6616629
19:01	danielszmulewi-1	howdy
19:02	amalloy	mlb-: `for` is lazy. it is never correct to see (for ... (doseq ...))
19:03	noonian	hi danielszmulewi-1
19:03	mlb-	amalloy: so I'd want nested `doseq`s?
19:04	TimMc	brehaut: No, I haven't moved on to the really hard stuff yet.
19:04	TimMc	I mean, I did experiment with catting /dev/hda to /dev/snd back in college, but never again.
19:05	brehaut	TimMc: you need to run it throguh an envelop filter and a beat synced parametric EQ and it'll be bang on
19:05	noonian	mlb-: yes that should fix it. because you don't do anything with the return value of publish (which is a lazy seq) after you call it, its evaluation is never forced
19:07	mlb-	noonian: your explanation helps, thanks =]
19:08	dbasch	what's a better way to do this? (map #(map read-string %) [["1", "2"] ["3", "4"]])
19:08	dbasch	trying to convert a list of pairs of numeric strings to pairs of numbers
19:10	callen	dbasch: golf or "better"?
19:10	dbasch	"better" as in less ugly
19:12	callen	dbasch: write a mmap function that doesn't map memory but maps a twice-nested list :)
19:13	`cbp	and hide it in the closet
19:13	rasmusto	dbasch: ,(map (partial map read-string) [["1" "2"] ["3" "4"]])
19:13	rasmusto	heh
19:13	dbasch	rasmusto: that's marginally better I suppose
19:14	dbasch	btw, the output of that goes into this ugly function, which could really use improvement: https://www.refheap.com/18775
19:14	callen	recursion without loop/recur?
19:14	callen	brave.
19:15	AimHere	,(walk #(mapv read-string %) identity [["1" "2"] ["3" "4"]])
19:15	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: walk in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
19:15	AimHere	,(clojure.walk/walk #(mapv read-string %) identity [["1" "2"] ["3" "4"]])
19:15	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
19:15	callen	AimHere: good idea!
19:15	rasmusto	I've got a new way to walk.walk/walk
19:16	callen	dbasch: walk is a more general solution, but I don't know how much pretty you'll get?
19:16	callen	prettier*
19:28	dbasch	I want to believe this is a bit better, thoughts? https://www.refheap.com/18779
19:42	`cbp	dbasch: maybe this: https://www.refheap.com/18780 :P
19:42	jmonetta	hey guys! is it possible to shadow a special form with a macro in clojure?
19:42	`cbp	jk
19:42	dbasch	`cbp: thanks
20:02	rasmusto	jmonetta: I think that's what most of the special forms become, so yes
20:02	jmonetta	rasmusto: thx for your answer
20:03	jmonetta	I was trying to do some code walk with replacements
20:03	jmonetta	with our clojure macrolet definitions
20:03	rasmusto	jmonetta: ex: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L4083
20:04	jmonetta	and I think it's specially avoiding macrolets to shadow special forms
20:06	jmonetta	like (macrolet [(if [test then-form else-form] `(if ~test (do (print "then") ~then-form) (do (print "else") ~else-form))))] (if 1 5 6))
20:06	jmonetta	that doesn't work
20:06	jmonetta	the macrolet doesn't expand the if special form
20:07	jmonetta	looking at the source it's supposed to protect the users
20:07	jmonetta	but I think this doesn't allows you to do some code walking/replacing using macrolets as in common lisp
20:11	rasmusto	jmonetta: interesting, that's beyond what I know
20:12	coventry	fn is not a special form, strictly speaking. That redefinition is over an earlier clojure definition https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L42
20:12	jmonetta	hmm I was pretty sure that was allowed in CL, but now it's giving me an error :(
20:12	coventry	The special form is fn*
20:14	jmonetta	http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap5.html
20:14	jmonetta	"Code-Walking with Macrolet"
20:15	jmonetta	that's what I'm trying to accomplish
20:16	cespare	If you wanted to do a loop over squares how would you do that?
20:16	cespare	I can construct a lazy seq of squares, but it's more typing than just squaring the number inside a (while true ...) loop.
20:16	Apage43	where is this macrolet from? is it the clojure.tools.macro macrolet?
20:17	Apage43	(the one you're using, not the CL one)
20:18	coventry	Clojure doesn't macroexpand forms which start with one of its special forms: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L6475
20:18	cespare	ah, iterate is what I want, I think.
20:19	jmonetta	I'm using clojure tools macrolet
20:19	jmonetta	[org.clojure/tools.macro "0.1.2"]
20:19	jmonetta	that one
20:20	Apage43	ah, but the problem as coventry points out is in clojure.core/macroexpand-1
20:23	Apage43	but, the way I read clojure.tools.macro it should not be using that to expand the macrolets
20:23	Apage43	only to expand regular macros
20:23	Apage43	(that is, you should be hitting this branch https://github.com/clojure/tools.macro/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/macro.clj#L75-L76 )
20:25	jmonetta	let me check
20:25	jmonetta	thx
20:26	cespare	Why does (newline) cause flushing but printf with a newline at the end does not?
20:27	mtp	because (newline) causes flushing
20:27	mtp	pretty much
20:27	cespare	java's dumb, got it
20:28	mtp	uhhh, no
20:28	mtp	the definition of the function "newline" includes "flush the output buffer"
20:28	cmatheson	does (println) also flush? i always have to (println (format)) but i would rather printf
20:28	mtp	afaik
20:28	cespare	mtp: where is this definition?
20:28	cespare	mtp: I'm reading the docs and it just says that it prints a newline, and notes that it's equivalent to System.out.println()
20:29	mtp	huh, i could be wrong
20:29	cespare	cmatheson: that's exactly the annoyance i'm having
20:29	cespare	i was excited to discover printf, then sad to discover that i need to revert to (println (format )) after all
20:29	mtp	not sure how you can derive "java is dumb" from "these two functions do different things", though
20:31	cespare	well, it's directly exposing the java behavior afaict, which apparently doesn't flush even if the input ends with a newline.
20:40	noprompt	;_;
20:43	AimHere	That's what loop/recur is for - there would be no need for it if you could only remember what the rotten sequence function you really need is called...
20:44	callen	noprompt: not even mapcat's actual implementation in core uses loop recur :P
20:44	callen	you guys know there's a way to query the bot for functions that produce the desired output given example input, right?
20:45	AimHere	How clever is it?
20:45	noprompt	callen: fuck that i'll just query "lessons learned from writing horrible clj code"
20:45	callen	it's like a runtime Hoogle for Clojure.
20:45	callen	AimHere: it works fine but it's sometimes more inclusive than you want if you don't give a specific enough example.
20:45	noprompt	callen: haha, it should be called "Cooger"
20:46	AimHere	Well does it do that Byrd/Friedman thing of spitting out the first 50 functions that evaluate to 6?
20:46	noprompt	i'll say it again, recognizing you've written some bad code is the first step on the road to recovery.
20:46	AimHere	Or does it just look for named clojure functions!
20:46	cespare	how would I reload a library inside lein repl? (If i just lein installed a new version)
20:47	noprompt	cespare: are you using emacs with nrepl?
20:47	cespare	noprompt: nope
20:47	noprompt	errm... load-file?
20:47	noprompt	load?
20:48	callen	cespare: (require '[clojure.tools.namespace.repl :refer [refresh]]) (refresh)
20:49	callen	noprompt: done.
20:49	noprompt	cespare: he/she may not be using clojure.tools.namespace
20:49	callen	use clojure.tools.namespace.
20:49	noprompt	callen: like this (use 'clojure.tools.namespace)?
20:49	noprompt	lol
20:49	callen	if you need to go spear fishing you'd better have a fucking stick.
20:49	noprompt	callen: dude, i'll choke a fish out with my bear hands.
20:50	callen	bare hands?
20:50	noprompt	that's right bear hands
20:50	callen	bear hands seems to work too.
20:50	cespare	callen: ok, i can use clojure.tools.namespace, but I wasn't before
20:50	callen	change your lein profiles for :user :dependencies to include c.t.n
20:50	cespare	callen: is that something I should put in my user project thingy
20:50	callen	cespare: profiles.
20:50	callen	cespare: ~/.lein/profiles.clj
20:50	cespare	callen: yes that.
20:50	callen	noprompt: I can loop you into the loop.
20:50	callen	cespare: yes. do that.
20:51	callen	noprompt: http://thinkrelevance.com/blog/2013/06/04/clojure-workflow-reloaded
20:51	callen	I hate that he's decided to claim this as his own, but whatever. Do it anyway.
20:51	noprompt	callen: yeah, i've read that.
20:51	callen	well...do it.
20:51	callen	c.t.n.r is amazing.
20:52	noprompt	i don't like putting my name on stuff or taking ownership. i don't even like licenses or copyrights.
20:52	callen	it's great for re-running tests with too
20:52	noprompt	it feels icky.
20:52	rasmusto	callen: would it be better to have it as a per-project thing? (in terms of sharing code or w/e)
20:52	noprompt	still i've done these things.
20:52	callen	noprompt: I think Sierra got tired of being the Stuart the Lesser. Needed to put his name on something.
20:52	callen	rasmusto: no.
20:52	callen	rasmusto: it's a local dev tool.
20:52	callen	you shouldn't be writing code that uses c.t.n.r
20:52	rasmusto	callen: kk
20:53	callen	it's just repl dev.
20:53	callen	it's an Emacs macro for me.
20:53	callen	I use terminal REPL for running tests (up arrow, hit enter)
20:53	callen	and Emacs REPL for experimentation/dev
20:53	noprompt	stuart sierra's talks trick me in to thinking i actually understand them.
20:53	noprompt	but i like them anyway.
20:54	cespare	callen: so how do i figure out the version of c.t.n.r that I should use? When I search clojars for that, nothing comes up. It's also not in the readme.
20:54	callen	hg commit -m "primary keys that aren't really primary."
20:54	noprompt	callen: that's how i run tests too.
20:55	rasmusto	cespare: it says 0.2.4 on github
20:55	cespare	rasmusto: that's for c.t.namespace
20:55	callen	clojars is...not how you should be finding packages :P
20:55	cespare	callen: ok, please enlighten me
20:55	callen	there's a lot of proxy packages on there from forks.
20:55	cespare	i'm new to this
20:55	callen	official github repo -> lein line
20:55	noprompt	callen: it's a nice sanity check to make sure you don't have anything weird going on after long Emacs sessions.
20:55	callen	[c.t.n "0.2.4"] line from the README.md
20:55	justin_smith	I checkout out my clojure app in jvisualvm, and saw 600k+ instances of class character
20:56	cespare	callen: i did that. That didn't give me c.t.n.r
20:56	justin_smith	is this normal? is it something weird about my app?
20:56	cespare	I assume that's a different package?
20:56	callen	noprompt: I bounce between the two REPLs.
20:56	rasmusto	cespare: https://github.com/clojure/tools.namespace#releases-and-dependency-information
20:56	callen	justin_smith: I've only done runtime profiling in YourKit, can't say.
20:56	callen	doesn't sound right though :)
20:56	noprompt	callen: term repl/emacs nrepl?
20:56	callen	yeah.
20:56	justin_smith	yeah, that represents quite a bit of ram
20:56	cespare	ok, i must just be requiring it incorrectly.
20:57	noprompt	callen: usually that's what i have going on but i seldom use the term repl.
20:57	rasmusto	cespare: oh, maybe I'm the one out of the loop, just read your last comment
20:57	callen	noprompt: I experiment in emacs nrepl, start firming up the implementation in the buffer for my actual code file, test from emacs nrepl until it seems to work. Then I write a test and start hammering the terminal REPL.
20:57	cespare	callen: I get a filenotfoundexception when I do your require line, even though I clearly have the package (lein repl printed stuff abouting downloading c.t.n from central)
20:57	callen	it's like a meta-loop of development behavior.
20:57	noprompt	callen: i don't like using nrepl-jack-in because sometimes i want to connect to another repl session
20:57	callen	cespare: reload the repl
20:57	rasmusto	cespare: er, nm, maybe that's the right thing
20:57	callen	noprompt: I don't do nji
20:57	cespare	callen: I did
20:58	noprompt	callen: it's alla 'bout strait M-x nrepl
20:58	callen	[org.clojure/tools.namespace "0.2.4"]
20:58	cespare	callen: yes that's what I have.
20:58	callen	I had 0.2.3
20:58	callen	try 0.2.3
20:58	cespare	callen: I'm in a project though, and the project doesn't have it.
20:58	callen	doesn't matter
20:58	cespare	callen: maybe i need to switch namespaces or something?
20:58	callen	I only have it in profiles.
20:58	callen	...no
20:58	cespare	k, no idea then.
20:58	callen	try 0.2.3
20:59	callen	check your ~/.m2
20:59	callen	noprompt: I do the testing -> terminal REPL flow because it's faster than checking multiple assertions manually
20:59	cespare	0.2.3 doesn't work, looking in ~/.m2
20:59	callen	it lets me set up a batch of assumptions.
20:59	muhoo	i asked this earlier, not sure if there was an answer: how does one in nrepl.el hit RET on a line in an nrepl error stacktrace and go to that file and line?
21:00	muhoo	because, it doesn't do that, and i'm thinking it probably should.
21:00	callen	muhoo: mouse-click definitely does it to me sometimes.
21:00	cespare	callen: how is this organized? find ~/.m2 -name namespace doesn't come up with anything
21:00	callen	let me throw an error and find out.
21:00	noprompt	callen: one thing i do like about testing in emacs vs the term is that failing tests get highlighted. that's always nice. especially with is.
21:01	noprompt	callen: i've got a lot of tests that use are too but i almost wanna switch them back to let/is so i can get see precisely the failing test.
21:02	callen	muhoo: goes to the top of the file if I give it a file for me. Not directly.
21:02	muhoo	mouse click does squat for me, RET does squat too.
21:02	callen	oh it definitely prompts me.
21:02	callen	it just isn't very helpful.
21:03	callen	noprompt: my workflow is 50% experimental, 50% test driven.
21:03	callen	I don't really write tests first, they happen after I've formulated assumptions about what should and shouldn't happen based on the earlier experimental stage.
21:03	callen	I don't like baking my assumptions into tests until I understand the data and the code I'm interacting with.
21:04	callen	I don't write that many tests either.
21:05	callen	I've got 16 tests for 400 LOC on what I'm working on right now.
21:05	callen	16 assertions, 7 tests, sorry.
21:06	cespare	callen: ok, i found 0.2.3 and 0.2.4 in my .m2
21:07	cespare	callen: I've also verified that inside there, tools/namespace/repl.clj exists (in the jar), which is exactly the file that shows up with a FileNotFoundException when I require
21:07	noprompt	is there an fn that's equivalent to [(filter pred coll) (remove pred coll)]?
21:07	rasmusto	callen: how do I get it to use the :user profile when I launch a repl? cespare: yeah, I'm getting something similar
21:07	callen	my code also tends to form a push-down stack of helper/component fns push down the root fn that forms a more proper part of the API
21:08	hyPiRion	noprompt: split-with I think
21:08	noprompt	i'm not looking for split-at or split-with
21:08	callen	rasmusto: I don't know what's going on with you guys.
21:08	callen	noprompt: wat
21:08	noprompt	hyPiRion: split-with is take-while/drop-while
21:08	rasmusto	noprompt: #(juxt filter remove) ?
21:08	noprompt	rasmusto: bam! nice.
21:08	noprompt	:)
21:09	noprompt	callen: yeah, no, that couldn't possibly be sane right
21:09	callen	oh I see.
21:09	noprompt	:P
21:09	callen	wow, a good excuse to use juxt.
21:09	callen	bravo rasmusto.
21:09	noprompt	juxt is the shit legends are made of.
21:09	callen	that was today's juxt quota.
21:09	rasmusto	callen: I slurped it over from yesterday's quota
21:10	callen	I used juxt, however inappropriately, yesterday.
21:10	callen	turned it into destruct :(
21:10	callen	I used a group-by and a projection function today.
21:12	cespare	callen: rasmusto works if it's in the project.clj, btw
21:13	noprompt	rasmusto: that was the highlight of my day.
21:14	callen	well wtf happened to Leiningen profiles?
21:15	rasmusto	callen: yeah, I was trying to do a `lein with-profile user repl` or somesuch
21:15	noprompt	(def divide (juxt filter remove))
21:16	rasmusto	hahaha, I actually used (juxt filter remove) in my code today without thinking about it
21:16	rasmusto	irc is a powerful influence
21:19	muhoo	oh, that was exciting, and stupid. i upgaded to nrepl 1.8 and now i get no stacktrace at all :-/
21:19	rasmusto	hrm, I'll give c.t.n.r a shot tomorrow
21:19	noprompt	i wanna make async regex patterns
21:20	callen	rasmusto: if I really wanted to, I could use "juxt filter remove" instead of my group-by :P
21:20	callen	noprompt: wtfffff are you doing?
21:20	callen	async...regex...what?
21:20	muhoo	ah, there's a nrepl-popup-stacktraces variable
21:20	noprompt	callen: yeah, lol
21:21	muhoo	and... RET does something, it says "No error here". so that's an improvement.
21:21	noprompt	callen: think about checking m1\|m2\|m3 blah blah concurrently
21:22	cespare	rasmusto: callen it happens with any library, not just c.t.n.r. Maybe I'm not using lein profiles correctly?
21:22	noprompt	callen: i saw this it kinda inspired me to mess around https://github.com/coreperf/rejit
21:23	noprompt	callen: normally i have no clue what i'm doing. i just go in to rabbit holes for the hell of it.
21:23	callen	hrm. using apply and flatten in the same line. I have something horribly wrong.
21:23	callen	have done*
21:23	callen	muhoo: yak-shaving advanced mode?
21:24	callen	I...am going to replace my flatten with mapcat identity and pretend it's somehow better. k? k.
21:24	amalloy	ITYM "using flatten", callen. nothing wrong with apply
21:24	amalloy	uh, yes, that is generally ~100x better
21:25	callen	where's the 100x coming from? (serious question)
21:25	amalloy	although (apply concat xs) is more popular than (mapcat identity xs)
21:25	amalloy	oh, just that about 1% of the time flatten is a good choice, and 100% of the time concat is
21:25	noprompt	(apply concat xs) is nice.
21:26	noprompt	<3 concat
21:26	noprompt	<3 mapcat
21:26	callen	Simplified example: (apply hash-map (flatten [[:a 1]])) -> (apply hash-map (mapcat identity [[:a 1]]))
21:26	callen	second one is what it got replaced with.
21:26	amalloy	callen: those both make me want to throw up
21:26	amalloy	(into {} [[:a 1]])
21:26	callen	amalloy: it's the result of group-by.
21:26	callen	oh SON OF A BITCH
21:26	noprompt	yeah i was just about to say into
21:26	amalloy	well, have fun. i'm off
21:27	callen	should've known to use into from your goddamn 4clojure answers.
21:27	muhoo	into is the shiznit
21:27	muhoo	almost as cool as juxt
21:27	noprompt	"red elf needs food badly"
21:27	callen	muhoo: almost.
21:27	noprompt	well that's my queue to go eat.
21:28	cespare	cue?
21:28	muhoo	no, he's using core.async to eat
21:28	cespare	or did you see a line of people walk by, who are all going to go eat, and you're about to join them
21:28	noprompt	cespare: i tend to Ms. pell stuff because it's funny to me.
21:29	callen	cespare: maybe he lives in Soviet Russia and must queue for potatoes.
21:29	callen	hahahaha. who I kidding. no afford potatoes.
21:29	noprompt	muhoo: that's a funny thought.
21:29	muhoo	(def food (java.util.concurrent.SynchronousQueue.))
21:29	noprompt	(put my-mouth (<! food))
21:29	muhoo	noprompt: yeah, much nicer
21:30	callen	BWAHAHAHAHA. Passing tests.
21:30	muhoo	i really should get on the core.async bandwagon. the syntax sugar is so nice
21:30	noprompt	muhoo: you could probably model the whole eating process if you took the time to wire it up.
21:30	callen	muhoo: I use it for testing RabbitMQ in my unit tests cleanly.
21:30	noprompt	that'd be funny.
21:30	callen	muhoo: core.async propagates the state cleanly (without globals) from the callbacks to the unit test fns.
21:31	muhoo	though lamina does the job, core.async seems so much slicker.
21:31	muhoo	it has that rhickey simplicity thing baked in
21:31	callen	Lamina is very good at what it does, but I think core.async is better suited for "lightweight" uses like mine.
21:31	noprompt	muhoo: i've only recently be using it on the client side.
21:31	callen	I think core.async is going to be my go-to (ha ah!) library for marshalling callback state and behavior.
21:32	noprompt	cyallater
21:32	callen	without, you know, smacking global state around.
21:32	callen	noprompt: latah.
21:33	cespare	how can I see my classpath?
21:33	cespare	inside lein repl
21:35	cespare	ok...so the things in my ~/.lein/profiles.clj just aren't in my classpath.
21:36	callen	bizarre.
21:36	callen	cespare: which profile are you using?
21:36	callen	are you overriding the profile in your project.clj?
21:36	cespare	The one in my profiles.clj is called :user, but I don't see anything about profiles in my project.clj
21:37	cespare	how do I see the current profile?
21:37	cespare	ok, trying out lein-pprint for teh debugz
21:38	cespare	oooooooooooooooh, nvm
21:38	cespare	i see what I done
21:38	cespare	everyone carry on
21:39	callen	cespare: ...what'd you do?
21:39	cespare	callen: added the library to :plugins, not :dependencies ><
21:40	callen	cespare: happens to the best of us :)
21:41	cespare	ok, pop the stack, back to the previous problem now that I can reload my library
21:54	cespare	callen: btw, that refresh thing doesn't actually reload the library that I reinstalled with lein repl
21:54	cespare	still gotta restart lein repl
21:55	coventry	cespare: Check out pomegranate. I hear good things about alembic for this, too.
22:01	callen	alembic is more "whole" than pomegranate in the sense that it's less hassle to use and can synchronize with the project.clj
22:01	callen	alembic is what I use.
22:01	callen	cespare: refresh is for reloading existing code, not fucking with your classpath :)
22:02	cespare	callen: i don't need my classpath to change
22:02	cespare	i'm debugging a library. I make a change and lein install it. Then in my test project's repl, i want to reload
22:06	coventry	cespare: You need a lein checkout dependency. https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/TUTORIAL.md#checkout-dependencies
22:10	cespare	coventry: ah perfect, thanks
22:20	cespare	What's this about? #<FileNotFoundException java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/tools/macro__init.class or clojure/tools/macro.clj on classpath: >
22:21	callen	cespare: you've now exceeded your free IRC support plan limit, please enter credit card number to continue at a rate of $15 per question.
22:21	SegFaultAX	So I finally have a case where I need to introduce a concrete type (well multiple, for different implementations of a protocol). What's the current accepted standard? deftype, defrecord, gen-class?
22:21	coventry	You can get your classpath by running "DEBUG=true lein repl" or with pomegranate.
22:22	callen	SegFaultAX: I'm dubious you needed a protocol to begin with. >:)
22:22	SegFaultAX	callen: Why?
22:23	callen	almost nobody ever does and would be better served with multimethods.
22:23	SegFaultAX	Well in this case it's more like an interface. multimethod isn't a good fit.
22:23	callen	that's what multimethods are for too.
22:24	SegFaultAX	Cool
22:24	SegFaultAX	Anyway, what's the current best practice. I seem to recall defrecord not being popular anymore or something...
22:25	callen	structs are deprecated, not records.
22:25	SegFaultAX	Ah ok, that's right.
22:25	callen	records aren't maps and don't share structure.
22:26	SegFaultAX	I thought the whole point of records is that they are persistent maps.
22:26	`cbp	defrecord if you wanna have map compatibility, deftype otherwise i guess
22:26	callen	defrecord is preferred in the "general" case.
22:26	callen	`cbp: the map compatibility is superficial, they do not share structure the way maps do.
22:26	callen	deftype is more barebones than defrecord. If it looks and smells like a map, you want defrecord.
22:27	SegFaultAX	I don't know if "superficial" is the right word. It implements all the right interfaces, the fact that it doesn't use structural sharing is an implementation detail.
22:27	SegFaultAX	Which is mostly irrelevant.
22:28	callen	well, churn some records in a loop and see how irrelevant it is :)
22:28	callen	http://cemerick.com/2011/07/05/flowchart-for-choosing-the-right-clojure-type-definition-form/
22:28	callen	you should note that this is specifically for defining a type in Clojure, not for defining interfaces.
22:29	callen	if all you're doing is defining an interface, not a type associated with a protocol, then you don't necessarily need protocols.
22:29	SegFaultAX	1 protocol. 3 distinct implementations.
22:30	SegFaultAX	callen: Are you thinking definterface?
22:30	callen	no :(
22:30	callen	I'm thinking Clojure code that doesn't give a damn about Java crap.
22:31	SegFaultAX	No Java interop required.
22:31	callen	then why are you using protocolsssssss
22:31	callen	I never thought having used CLOS in Common Lisp would be superseded by a situation where I'm telling people YAGNI. I thought CLOS was the ultimate flouting of YAGNI, but it has been overcome.
22:32	callen	SegFaultAX: protocols are explicitly about dispatching on type and only type. If types and the associated Java-ness aren't an important part of what you're doing...then don't make an interface that dispatches on type...
22:33	callen	the only other reason to use protocols is "performance"
22:33	Apage43	beh, this is reminding me I have some code I should be using multimethods on
22:33	callen	and I swear to god I am going to start going after people that claim that as an excuse without a benchmark showing dispatch was a non-trivial part of the runtime.
22:34	Apage43	right now its covered in functions that are nothing but a big-assed (cond)
22:34	callen	Apage43: lol. I applaud you for your restraint though.
22:35	callen	premature multimethods/protocols is worse than having a cond.
22:35	SegFaultAX	As I said, in this case it's more about documenting the interface.
22:35	Apage43	the only reason I really want to do it is to make it easier to read
22:36	callen	SegFaultAX: can't write docs unless it's prefaced with a defprotocol? Do you have a prescription for that?
22:37	bja	callen: refactoring tends to flow from if->cond->multimethods
22:37	bja	with a correlation to people requesting more features
22:37	SegFaultAX	callen: More like "if you want to implement a new one of these thingies, this is the minimum interface you need to adhere to"
22:38	SegFaultAX	Protocols are a good in-code form of documentation for that.
22:38	callen	bja: me gusta
22:38	callen	SegFaultAX: orrrrr multimethods.
22:39	callen	I want you to swallow your insanity for the whole 30 minutes it would take to just do it in multimethods just so you see how it feels.
22:39	SegFaultAX	callen: Yes, I understand your opinion on multimethods.
22:39	bja	multimethods are like slingshot. best used in small doses, lest I remember that throw+ is just a super convenient multi-level-escape-capable flow-control method
22:40	Apage43	I've only ever used slingshot with clj-http, to catch some HTTP errors but not others
22:41	bja	and the last time I did that I lost several hours refactoring the resulting "slingshot-enabled" code to be readable in the following days/weeks/months
22:41	callen	bja: multimethods are not dangerous the way slingshot is.
22:41	callen	they're simpler than protocols half the time.
22:42	bja	I figured out how to log the namespace in my console.log messages from clojurescript today
22:42	bja	that was actually pretty exciting
22:43	callen	bja: black triangle?
22:44	ambrosebs	is there a good reason why Clojurescript cannot be AOT compiled?
22:44	SegFaultAX	callen: While I don't need Java interop, type based dispatch is /exactly/ what I'm after.
22:45	bja	ambrosebs: isn't that basically what happens? you AOT compile it to javascript instead of .class files
22:45	SegFaultAX	If I used multimethods, I'd just invent something like dispatching on type anyway.
22:45	ambrosebs	bja: I mean cljs.compiler.
22:46	SegFaultAX	callen: Generally I agree with you, but in this case protocols does actually seem warranted.
22:46	callen	SegFaultAX: then go forth with my blessing, but know that it'll fuck with your REPL anyway.
22:46	callen	and if they're mappy data structures, use defrecord.
22:46	SegFaultAX	callen: How so? I thought defrecords and deftypes can be freely re-eval'd?
22:46	callen	you'll be torn limb from limb if you use defstruct.
22:47	Apage43	SegFaultAX: they can
22:47	callen	SegFaultAX: they can
22:47	Apage43	but you wind up with two classes with the same name
22:47	Apage43	which is Fun (TM)
22:47	SegFaultAX	Actually in this case deftype is sufficient.
22:47	callen	DOdl;kfhmklnflhknf
22:47	callen	don't.
22:47	bja	callen: no. the black triangle was a couple months ago. this just improves my debuggering immensely. Since I can now write (??? interesting-value) and end up with something like "my.first.namespace: (foo (bar baz))" in the console log
22:47	bja	err, debugging
22:47	callen	debuggering? are you oppressing homosexuals?
22:47	SegFaultAX	callen: No no, definitely not using defstruct.
22:47	callen	bja: very illiberal of you :\|
22:48	callen	SegFaultAX: use defrecord anyway >:)
22:48	xeqi	ambrosebs: you mean compiled and distributed as a library?
22:48	danielszmulewi-1	Just use tools.namespace and read the warnings: https://github.com/clojure/tools.namespace#warnings-for-protocols
22:48	SegFaultAX	What if I only /ever/ have like 3 fields, you reckon the overhead is worth it?
22:48	Apage43	(you'll have things like instances of the pre-reeval class and the post-reeval class behaving differently, and such)
22:48	bja	SegFaultAX: I find it to be
22:48	Apage43	and not being considered to be the same type
22:48	ambrosebs	xeqi: Basically. I'm jumping through hoops to get Clojurescript working with my AOT code.
22:48	Apage43	or .equals to each other
22:49	callen	SegFaultAX: you should use defrecord by default. deftype is for when you need the chainsaw.
22:49	SegFaultAX	Understood.
22:49	callen	ie, your name is aphyr.
22:49	SegFaultAX	callen: Thanks!
22:49	SegFaultAX	And the rest of you, thanks! :)
22:49	xeqi	ambrosebs: ack, I was thinking you meant your own code, not the compiler.. hmm
22:49	ambrosebs	xeqi: sorry. I only use the compiler ;)
22:51	callen	SegFaultAX: pretty sure Stuart Sierra's workflow handles how to manage things like protocols cleanly in a REPL workflow.
22:51	SegFaultAX	callen: Ok thanks. I pretty much just looked at the flowchart, I'll give the article a closer read.
22:52	Apage43	the main thing is you just gotta be careful with old instances hangin around
22:52	Apage43	if you make sure you don't do that, you're pretty much alright
22:52	SegFaultAX	Apage43: Was that to me?
22:53	Apage43	in general, about the topic of protocols and REPLs
22:53	Apage43	to whoever cares :)
22:53	SegFaultAX	Why would objects just arbitrarily hang around?
22:54	Apage43	I personally have scratch names all over the place when I'm REPLing
22:54	SegFaultAX	Apage43: Memory is cheap. ;)
22:54	Apage43	I might reload a protocol and forget the instance I created of it earlier and gave a name to was from before I reloaded it
22:55	Apage43	or you might have a "on-app start" function in your app that builds its initial state, and if that instantiates some things and you don't rerun it after you reload a protocol definition
22:56	Apage43	it could get hairy
22:58	danielszmulewi-1	Apage43: at which point you restart a new REPL...
22:59	SegFaultAX	danielszmulewi-1: Like... ew
23:00	danielszmulewi-1	SegFaultAX: exactly... anathema
23:11	chord	anyone here?
23:13	akurilin	Am I correctly understanding that a maybe monad would be one decent way to solve the issue of having a lot of conditionals in my ring handlers that make sure the result of each subsequent operation isn't nil?
23:17	weavejester	akurilin: In Clojure 1.5, there is the some-> function that fulfils a similar role.
23:17	chord	just use haskell
23:18	akurilin	weavejester, awesome, thanks for the tip. I always forget about those as I'm always on clojuredocs. That github wiki from the google groups seems to have it though.
23:26	marco1	for clojurescript, what's the equivalent of: someObj["func"]() ?
23:27	gfredericks	((aget someObj "func")) last time I used cljs
23:29	marco1	Thanks!
23:31	danielszmulewicz	weavejester: you nightbird :-)
23:31	weavejester	danielszmulewicz: I code better at night, but I'm just about getting to bed :)
23:32	danielszmulewicz	weavejester: same here, my friend
23:32	danielszmulewicz	weavejester: already in bed :-)
23:32	Raynes	Owl.
23:37	john2x	"((aget someObj "func"))" it's not possible to do ((:func someObj)) in cljs?
23:46	chord	lets make a game with clojure ok