#clojure – 2013-09-11

2013-09-11

00:00	clj_newb_2345	how do I get clojure.edn ?
00:00	clj_newb_2345	what line do I need to add to my lein project.clj ?
00:00	bbloom	nothing
00:00	clj_newb_2345	clojure.edn/read-string is NOT available at my repl
00:01	bbloom	so (require 'clojure.edn)
00:03	clj_newb_2345	(worked now
00:03	clj_newb_2345	thanks :-)
00:10	clj_newb_2345	one more dumbass question: what is the clojurescript counterpart to edn?
00:13	amalloy	c'mon, clj_newb_2345, that is not hard to google
00:13	clj_newb_2345	actually, "clojurescript edn" brings up surprisiiiiogly little documentation
00:13	dnolen	clj_newb_2345: what counterpart is needed. EDN is like JSON
00:14	bbloom	let's play bbloom's favorite game!
00:14	dissipate_	amalloy, i thought #clojure was google?
00:14	bbloom	it's called: "Have you tried grep?"
00:14	clj_newb_2345	bbloom: what would I grep for?
00:14	clj_newb_2345	what code base would I grep over?
00:14	bbloom	git clone github.com/clojure/clojurescript
00:15	bbloom	considering clojure.edn is baked in to your repl, the primary repository is a good guess
00:16	clj_newb_2345	your suggestion is not completely unreasonable
00:16	sdegutis	Thanks
00:16	bbloom	clj_newb_2345: i'll give you one more hint: try "defn" is a likely hit
00:17	bbloom	dnolen: although now that i mention it, we probably should have a clojure.edn namespace in cljs
00:17	bbloom	dnolen: trying to bring clj & cljs closer together
00:17	coventry`	clj_newb_2345: google(clojurescript intext:edn) is the trick.
00:17	dnolen	bbloom: perhaps, but that's more churn, cljs.reader predates clojure.edn
00:18	bbloom	dnolen: grumble grumble. who does that rich hickey guy think he is using a different namespace than the cljs team :-)
00:19	xeqi	if only there was a nice plugin to a build tool to paper over the differences with feature expressions
00:20	bbloom	:-/
00:20	dissipate_	bbloom, you realize these issues would go away if there was a pure clojurescript framework that allowed you to put client and server code in the same file? look at the opa framework.
00:21	dissipate_	"Write simultaneously the frontend and backend code, in the same language, within the same module. Even better: the Opa Slicer automates the calls between client and server. No more manually written AJAX calls or value serialization!"
00:21	dissipate_	but we can't have nice things because running javascript server side is blasphemy!
00:22	bbloom	you've totally misunderstud the goals and tradeoffs selected for clojurescript
00:26	xeqi	dissipate_: while I haven't seen anything that chooses where to run the code for you, there are libs to make the http calls hidden, like shoreleave
00:26	xeqi	or pedestal
00:27	dissipate_	xeqi, that's certainly an improvement
00:27	coventry`	The study required to understand pedestal would leave no time for trolling.
00:30	dissipate_	coventry`, hmm, and what's the payoff for all that study?
00:32	xeqi	bbloom: I was refering to https://github.com/lynaghk/cljx incase there was any confusion
00:32	coventry`	Anyone got ready-made code for walking a tree and changing one symbol to another where ever it appears?
00:32	bbloom	xeqi: i'm familiar with it
00:33	dnolen	dissipate_: I think the value proposition of things like are Opa (similarly Meteor) are grossly overstated
00:35	dissipate_	dnolen, seems good for rapid prototyping in any event, no?
00:36	dnolen	dissipate_: doesn't look any worse or better than ClojureScript in that regard IMO
00:39	dnolen	dissipate_: actually reading over the docs, it looks worse - but of course it's always hard to say w/o actually using. Doesn't seem to have a good async story outside of the small part of many apps that is client/server comm
00:43	coventry`	Why is there zip/vector-zip as well as zip/seq-zip? Is it faster?
00:45	dissipate_	dnolen, i wouldn't use opa. the database stuff is way too heavily integrated and seems to promote accessing the database wherever you please.
00:46	coventry`	Is loop the best way to walk a tree with zip, as in the examples at http://clojure.org/other_libraries#Other%20included%20Libraries-Zippers%20-%20Functional%20Tree%20Editing%20(clojure.zip) ?
00:47	dissipate_	good god, someone needs to fix those URLs.
00:47	Pupnik_	its just irc
00:49	dissipate_	coventry`, http://bit.ly/14E0MYX you are welcome
00:50	bbloom	coventry`: recur is definitely the way to go with zippers b/c that's kinda half the point of them
00:50	bbloom	coventry`: zippers reify the context of your traversal as a data structure.
00:50	bbloom	coventry`: generally, that context is stored in your program's evaluation stack!
00:52	coventry`	bbloom: Got it, thanks. It just looks ugly, but not as ugly as traversing the tree myself, and easier than writing inner and outer functions for walk.
01:16	amalloy	bbloom: i dunno, lazy-seq functions seem to work pretty well with zippers
01:17	bbloom	amalloy: sure, capturing the context for delayed (or repeated) execution is the other half the point :-)
01:33	clj_newb_2345	does clojure have a built in binary tree? i.e. I want a sorted list of items where I can do insertion / deletion in logn time
01:33	clj_newb_2345	I don't think vectors provide this, as they tend to be O(n) time insert/delete
01:34	bbloom	(doc sorted-set)
01:34	clojurebot	"([& keys]); Returns a new sorted set with supplied keys. Any equal keys are handled as if by repeated uses of conj."
01:35	bbloom	it's built on a persistent red black tree
01:35	clj_newb_2345	this doesn't seem to support (insert after n/2-th element)
01:35	clj_newb_2345	so I'm trying to mirrot the DOM tree
01:36	clj_newb_2345	actually, now that I think about it
01:36	clj_newb_2345	what I really want is a doubly linked list
01:37	clj_newb_2345	since why do I want O(log n_) time insert/delete when I can have constant time insert/delete ?
01:37	bbloom	clj_newb_2345: b/c you get to keep persistence and the tree's generally shallow enough to be amortized constant
01:39	clj_newb_2345	hm
01:39	clj_newb_2345	so what is the "correct" way to mirror a dom tree
01:39	clj_newb_2345	dom trees have the notion of NodeList
01:39	bbloom	it's impossible to have a doubly linked list that is also fully persistent w/ structural sharing. not that that means there is never a use for a double linked list, but it's highly unlikely you need that compared to a persistent structure
01:39	bbloom	how could there possibly be a "correct" way? different representations make different trade offs
01:39	clj_newb_2345	I think I can get away with a zipper, since I only walk up/down the list one item at a time
01:40	clj_newb_2345	so I have a representation, which is: left: list of nodes, right : list of nodes, cur : current node
01:40	clj_newb_2345	where "left" is stored in reverse order
01:40	dissipate_	bbloom, what about a sorted map?
01:42	bbloom	gotta run
01:42	dissipate_	clj_newb_2345, http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/sorted-map
01:50	Raynes	amalloy: Answer to why lazybot was down: because f*** you, that's why.
02:25	fredyr	ls
02:25	lazybot	boot home lib lost+found media mnt opt proc root sbin selinux srv swap sys
02:25	fredyr	:o
02:25	fredyr	sry seems like i'm tired, mixing up the windows
02:42	andyfingerhut	Do you know if/how Clojure+Ring+Compojure web servers with multiple instances share session state between them? Or do they rely on load balancers that usually cause same client to go to same server?
02:48	fredyr	i don't know how it is done w/ ring/compojure, but there are a couple of common choices
02:48	fredyr	first as you said, you can have sticky sessions
02:49	fredyr	or otherwise a shared session cache of some kind
02:49	fredyr	usually database backed or a distributed cache like memcached
02:50	andyfingerhut	fredyr: Thanks. Do you know which events typically cause that session cache to be updated? i.e. would it pretty much need to be updated on every user request?
02:55	fredyr	don't really think that's needed
02:56	SegFaultAX	I had bangers and mash for dinner... and it was amazing. Just saying.
03:00	fredyr	andyfingerhut: to answer your question, no i don't really know specifically for ring
03:02	andyfingerhut	fredyr: Thanks. Haven't done any web dev before, and just learning a little bit about it. Bought Dmitri Smotnikov's new Web Development with Clojure book and going through that.
03:04	fredyr	nice
03:04	fredyr	i'm sure you'll get better answers once the americans wake up also
03:04	fredyr	:)
03:12	s4muel	andyfingerhut: the basic idea is that yes, you wrap your application handler in ring's wrap-session, essentially just a handler fn that reads the :session for a request. you update it by sending (an updated copy of) the :session back in the response
03:13	s4muel	check out the ring wiki, there's a whole page on it. in terms of session storage, there's stuff built into ring, and whatever your app server might provide too (for larger stuff).
03:19	andyfingerhut	s4muel: Thanks. So ring by default will use an in-memory session store. That is sufficient if you have a single web server, I can see. fredyr mentioned memcached or a database as a potential storage for session state if you have many web servers. Do you know how often such a session store is updated typically?
03:28	SegFaultAX	andyfingerhut: It really depends on the application. Session can be used for all kinds of stuff.
03:28	SegFaultAX	Server-side memory store and cookie stores are quite common.
03:29	SegFaultAX	Typically the main thing in there is the identifier for a user (perhaps the primary key on the users table)
03:29	SegFaultAX	But other information you might want to cache could be in there. Stuff you access often that changes slowly.
03:30	clj_newb_2345	does clojurescript support "format" ?
03:30	clj_newb_2345	i.e. the clojure format command
03:31	andyfingerhut	If the web app implemented a "shopping cart", and the user could add another item to it with every request, would that typically be implemented by putting the shopping cart items in the session, or in some database that was accessed via the user id?
03:32	fredyr	clj_newb_2345: it does
03:34	clj_newb_2345	fredyr: what namespace is it in, what is it called?
03:35	SegFaultAX	andyfingerhut: In the database.
03:35	fredyr	clj_newb_2345: i believe it's straight in core
03:35	fredyr	,(format "%.3f" 2.0)
03:35	clojurebot	"2.000"
03:36	clj_newb_2345	in clojurescript ...
03:36	fredyr	yeah, but i believe it is the same in clojurescript
03:36	fredyr	it uses goog.string instead of the java.lang.String though
03:37	SegFaultAX	andyfingerhut: Generally don't trust highly valuable data to something that isn't persisted.
03:37	SegFaultAX	andyfingerhut: If the server crashed, for example, you'd lose your shopping cart.
03:38	SegFaultAX	andyfingerhut: Furthermore when using cookies as your session store, don't store anything private or really anything at all of value.
03:38	andyfingerhut	Makes sense. Wasn't sure how "highly valuable" shopping cart data is, but it certainly would annoy customers if they were lost a noticeable fraction of the time.
03:39	SegFaultAX	andyfingerhut: A good rule of thumb is to never put anything in the session that can't be resurrected from the primary data store.
03:39	SegFaultAX	andyfingerhut: In memory session stores also have some other rather important problems to consider.
03:52	ddellacosta	how do I access a protected member within a gen-class method (fn) definition? I've tried (.member this) and it says that it doesn't exist…is it even possible?
03:56	tomjack	can I do `lein new $NAME` if $NAME is two letters long?
03:57	fredyr	tomjack: $ lein new ts
03:57	fredyr	Generating a project called ts based on the 'default' template.
03:58	tomjack	I should have explained the question better, but wasn't sure how to
03:58	tomjack	I know it works, I mean I would feel like an asshole pushing that to clojars
03:59	SegFaultAX	Just give it an artifact group.
03:59	SegFaultAX	com.tomjack/fu
03:59	tomjack	ok
03:59	fredyr	you should probably include `core` somewhere also
03:59	tomjack	but (ns fu.ba) ?
03:59	fredyr	:)
04:00	SegFaultAX	Also, I laughed at this so hard: https://github.com/mperham/sidekiq/blob/master/lib/sidekiq.rb#L25
04:00	SegFaultAX	I don't know why.
04:00	tomjack	so we stick to RDN for GAV, but in ns's?
04:01	tomjack	er, "reverse-dns"?
04:08	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: that ruby method is hi-larious
04:09	SegFaultAX	ddellacosta: Yup
04:18	ucb	SegFaultAX: heh that made me chuckle
04:18	ucb	just finished listening to This is Water by DFW, so I'm in a gloomy/pensive mode. Otherwise I would've really laughed at that method :)
04:19	muhoo	that's an amazing lecture
04:21	ucb	muhoo: yeah. I only recently came across the audio.
04:22	muhoo	i've never seen a video of it, just the audio.
04:22	muhoo	i discovered when he died. so sad that he was so ill. brilliant guy.
04:23	ucb	indeed
04:23	ucb	I don't think I've ever witnessed so much clarity packed in such a small amount of time
04:23	SegFaultAX	ucb: Link?
04:24	ucb	SegFaultAX: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1640144/This%20Is%20Water%20by%20David%20Foster%20Wallace%20Full%20Speech-PhhC_N6Bm_s.mp4
04:24	SegFaultAX	Thanks!
04:24	ucb	no worries
04:24	muhoo	also here, looks like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI
04:26	ucb	muhoo: I made a copy just in case :)
04:28	SegFaultAX	muhoo: The number of views on that video is pissing me off.
04:28	SegFaultAX	65,534
04:28	fredyr	hah
04:29	ucb	ODD kicks in it seems
04:29	muhoo	odd?
04:30	ucb	(see what I did there?)
04:33	ddellacosta	I cannot get :exposes-methods working at all in gen-class. What is the meaning/order of the arguments in that hash-map?
04:33	ddellacosta	it's not clear to me which is the name of the parent method I want to expose, and it's not clear what the other arg is meant to be, or where it occurs
04:33	muhoo	know what pisses me off?
04:34	muhoo	,(let [foo (atom {})] (-> 1 @foo :ugh))
04:34	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$deref>
04:34	muhoo	uh, i'm only passing 1 arg to deref
04:35	clgv	muhoo: no you are not.
04:35	muhoo	(-> 1 blah) passes only one arg, which is 1, to blah
04:36	clgv	muhoo: @foo expandes to (deref foo)
04:36	muhoo	,(doc ->)
04:36	clojurebot	"([x] [x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
04:36	ucb	muhoo: shouldn't it be (-> 1 (blah)) ?
04:36	clgv	,(read-string "@foo")
04:36	clojurebot	(clojure.core/deref foo)
04:36	clgv	muhoo: hence you get ##(read-string "(-> 1 @foo :ugh)")
04:36	ucb	e.g. (-> 1 (@the-ref) :ugh)
04:36	muhoo	clgv: ah, macro expansion
04:36	lazybot	⇒ (-> 1 (clojure.core/deref foo) :ugh)
04:37	ucb	,(let [a (atom {})] (-> 1 (@a) :ugh))
04:37	clojurebot	nil
04:37	ucb	right
04:37	muhoo	surprising
04:37	ucb	,(let [a (atom {1 {:ugh :yay}})] (-> 1 (@a) :ugh))
04:37	clojurebot	:yay
04:37	ucb	there
04:37	clgv	muhoo: no. not normal macro expansion. it is a reader macro so to say
04:39	muhoo	thanks, makes a bit more sense now.
04:48	SegFaultAX	ucb: Wow
04:48	SegFaultAX	That was awesome.
04:48	ucb	SegFaultAX: INORITE
04:49	SegFaultAX	I'm going to listen to it again tomorrow.
04:49	SegFaultAX	That was awesome.
04:49	ucb	I just did today :)
04:49	SegFaultAX	Thanks for sharing.
04:49	ucb	it's one of those things I like to do periodically, just to remind myself of the awesomeness
04:49	ucb	no worries, glad you liked it
04:49	SegFaultAX	On that note, I must sleep.
04:49	SegFaultAX	Night all.
04:49	ucb	night
04:50	supersym	good morning :)
04:50	clgv	ucb: what is he talking about? ;)
04:51	ucb	clgv: DFW's "This is Water" speech
04:51	ucb	DFW = David Foster Wallace
04:51	muhoo	a man of infinite jest
04:54	clj_newb_2345	the following is almost certainly a bad idea, but I want to try it anyway
04:55	clj_newb_2345	is there a way I can setup to have "(refresh)" called once every second
04:55	clj_newb_2345	(refersh is referring to clojure.tools.namespace/refresh)
04:55	clj_newb_2345	actually, I want it to be sent over emacs
04:55	clj_newb_2345	whenever I do a write
04:56	clgv	clj_newb_2345: fire up a future with an infinite loop that Thread/sleep for a second and then calls refresh
04:56	clj_newb_2345	yes, this is what I wnat: to add in a hook to my emacs, so that on every write, it sends nrepl a "(refresh)"
04:56	clj_newb_2345	no, I no longer want one per second
04:56	clj_newb_2345	I'd like it to work via emacs write hook
04:56	clj_newb_2345	or something like cljsbuild
04:56	clj_newb_2345	to monitor that when a *.clj file has been modified
04:56	supersym	use a watcher
04:56	clgv	cant help you there. I have no knowledge about elisp and emacs internals ;)
04:57	supersym	me neither, I'd use a watcher for that in pedestal
04:57	clj_newb_2345	https://github.com/derekchiang/Clojure-Watch ?
04:57	clj_newb_2345	actually, this was moditivated by pedestal
04:57	clj_newb_2345	how does pedestal do it?
04:57	supersym	let me have a look
04:58	schmir	clj_newb_2345: take a look at https://github.com/schmir/.emacs.d/blob/master/setup-clojure.el, it may help you with executing code from emacs
04:58	clj_newb_2345	if you don't mnind, could you (1) refactor the code, (2) post it to git up, and (3) add it to clojars so I can just add it to my project.clj :-)
04:58	supersym	https://github.com/konrad-garus/pedestal-routing/blob/master/dev/dev.clj#L82
04:59	ddellacosta	I cannot get this to work: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9060127/how-to-invoke-superclass-method-in-a-clojure-gen-class-method, any ideas? I just keep getting exceptions like "No matching field found: bar for class foo."
04:59	clj_newb_2345	most likely a type issue
04:59	clj_newb_2345	i.e. clojure won't auto convert a char to a int for you
05:00	clj_newb_2345	so if it expects an int, and you pass it a char, it "can't find the function"
05:01	ddellacosta	clj_newb_2345: are you responding to me?
05:01	supersym	ddellacosta: did you lein compile?
05:01	ddellacosta	supersym: yes.
05:01	ddellacosta	supersym: I've been going to the extreme of deleting the class files to make sure that's not it, but anyways, my exceptions change so I'm pretty sure it's unrelated anyways.
05:02	supersym	ah
05:02	ddellacosta	this further adds to the confusion: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1027?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel#issue-tabs
05:02	supersym	I had that last part all too often as well
05:02	clj_newb_2345	https://github.com/ibdknox/watchtower + (refresh) should suffice
05:02	ddellacosta	just really not sure how this is supposed to work, but at this point I've tried all sorts of variations, so I'm deeply perplexed.
05:03	supersym	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3318671/clojures-gen-class-and-double-arrays
05:03	ucb	ddellacosta, supersym, clj_newb_2345: you have to keep in mind that tools.namespace/refresh doesn't play nice with aot
05:03	ucb	ugh
05:03	ucb	wrong context probable
05:03	ucb	probablY
05:03	clj_newb_2345	ucb:ucb: why do I want gen-class / aot ?
05:03	supersym	its not exactly what your problem is, but that should help you check a few things
05:03	supersym	ucb: yep :)
05:03	ucb	clj_newb_2345: I'm not saying you do; I just barged in a conversation and made an arse of myself.
05:04	clj_newb_2345	hmm
05:04	supersym	that I know as well
05:04	clj_newb_2345	does "file system watchers" basically just poll ?
05:04	clj_newb_2345	or do they something clever and get push notifications from the OS?
05:06	ddellacosta	supersym: hmm, thanks but not sure this is going to help--I'm having trouble just deciphering how to get access to a parent's protected method. It seems like I'm not successfully exposing it, even using expose-methods. I can successfully create and override methods otherwise, however--there's no issues there.
05:09	clj_newb_2345	hmm, can (refresh) only be called from the lein repl>
05:09	clj_newb_2345	Exception in thread "Timer-0" java.lang.IllegalStateException: Can't change/establish root binding of: ns with set at clojure.lang.Var.set(Var.java:233) at clojure.lang.RT$1.invoke(RT.java:239)
05:10	ddellacosta	oh, fer #$!@s sake, I forgot to pass the right args into the parent method
05:12	supersym	:)
05:14	dissipate_	can someone explain why you need the 'apply' function in this: https://www.refheap.com/18531
05:14	dissipate_	why not just '+' without the 'apply'?
05:15	TEttinger	dissipate_, numbers is a collection
05:15	fredyr	,(+ [1 2 3 4])
05:15	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: Cannot cast clojure.lang.PersistentVector to java.lang.Number>
05:15	fredyr	,(apply + [1 2 3 4])
05:15	clojurebot	10
05:17	ddellacosta	omg…could it really be…working…? Is it true??
05:17	lazybot	ddellacosta: Definitely not.
05:17	ddellacosta	lazybot: you are one tough customer.
05:17	ddellacosta	way to be a downer, you damn bot
05:18	dissipate_	TEttinger, I see, thanks
05:19	TEttinger	fredyr thanks for the example
05:19	TEttinger	np dissipate_
05:19	fredyr	np
05:48	sdegutis	So, I got pretty far in my Lisp interpreter tonight. Now I'm stuck at the hard part.
05:48	sdegutis	Scoping.
05:49	sdegutis	For anonymous functions, it's confusing since there's 2 scopes, the calling scope and the definition scope, and I don't understand how lookups are split between these two. How does Clojure do this?
05:50	sdegutis	Maybe it's just as simple as putting the definition scope at the tail of the calling scope's parent-chain.
05:53	jjttjj``	+
05:54	sdegutis	jjttjj``: ?
05:54	fredyr	sdegutis: you just merge them together into one env
05:55	sdegutis	fredyr: Okay. And the caller-env should have precedence, right?
05:55	fredyr	right, shadowing bindings that are in both
05:55	sdegutis	So in Clojure it would be (merge definition-env caller-env)
05:55	sdegutis	Cool.
05:55	jjttjj``	sdegutis: ignore that
05:56	sdegutis	jjttjj``: I'm trying!
05:57	fredyr	sdegutis: have you looked at paip? the environment stuff is explained pretty good there
05:58	sdegutis	http://norvig.com/paip.html ?
05:58	fredyr	yes
05:58	sdegutis	fredyr: nope, will check it out, thanks
05:58	fredyr	sure
05:59	fredyr	i implemented a (very!) basic scheme interpreter in clojure over the summer based on that
06:00	sdegutis	fredyr: on github?
06:00	fredyr	nah
06:00	fredyr	but its like 40 loc
06:00	fredyr	so i can put it in a gist
06:00	fredyr	if you want
06:00	sdegutis	that'd be really nice of you :)
06:03	fredyr	https://gist.github.com/fredyr/6521407
06:03	fredyr	here u go
06:03	sdegutis	Woo, thanks :)
06:04	fredyr	oh, i see now that i used a ref instead of an atom for the global env :S
06:04	fredyr	so disregard that if you please
06:04	sdegutis	fredyr: heh will do
06:06	fredyr	looks nice
06:06	sdegutis	fredyr: heh, you name things like i do.. "maybe-add"
06:07	fredyr	oh i think that one might be courtesy of Norvig though
06:07	sdegutis	ah
06:07	fredyr	but i do like it anyways
06:08	fredyr	begin is like do in scheme
06:08	fredyr	and just as in clojure you have an implicit begin inside of lambdas
06:08	sdegutis	right
06:10	sdegutis	fredyr: your lambdas never get a called-at-env, they only house the defined-at-env
06:11	fredyr	isn't (ext-env parms args env) exactly that?
06:11	fredyr	env is the called-at
06:12	fredyr	and parms+args is defined-at
06:12	fredyr	or maybe i'm misunderstanding
06:13	sdegutis	fredyr: the 'env' (last arg of ext-env) that you just mentioned is only bound as the second arg to interp
06:14	sdegutis	and in this case, the call to interp is where the lambda is defined.
06:14	fredyr	but called-at-env is the global-env at the top level
06:15	fredyr	and if you have lambdas inside lambdas you get extended local versions
06:16	sdegutis	fredyr: well i could be mistaken, but i think you're mistaken
06:16	sdegutis	either way, it's not that important :)
06:16	fredyr	i don't think i understand what you mean exactly
06:17	fredyr	but it's entirely possible i'm wrong
06:17	sdegutis	im not 100% sure i do either.
06:18	fredyr	what i was trying to say earlier, but wasn't very clear, is that the lambda code is interpreted with env bound to the extended env
06:18	sdegutis	all i can say is, i think your code will probably fail with this code: (((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y)) 1) 2)
06:18	sdegutis	right
06:18	sdegutis	sanity check: ##(+ 1 2)
06:18	lazybot	⇒ 3
06:19	sdegutis	sanity check: ##(((fn [x] (fn [y] (+ x y))) 1) 2)
06:19	lazybot	⇒ 3
06:19	sdegutis	ok just making sure
06:19	sdegutis	,(((fn [x] (fn [y] (- x y))) 1) 2)
06:19	fredyr	right, i see your point
06:19	clojurebot	-1
06:19	sdegutis	fredyr: dont mind me :)
06:19	fredyr	but i think the key here is that the lambda gets interpreted with (interp code (ext-env parms args env))
06:20	sdegutis	fredyr: i think your solution might work on account of it being mutable.
06:20	sdegutis	i havent ran it though..
06:20	fredyr	i'm about to
06:20	fredyr	:)
06:20	fredyr	i wanna test your let w/ lambda construct
06:23	sdegutis	you mean ##(((fn [x] (fn [y] (+ x y))) 1) 2) ?
06:23	lazybot	⇒ 3
06:23	sdegutis	my goal is to get that working right now, God help me.
06:25	fredyr	thankfully, it works like a charm!!
06:26	fredyr	i updated the gist
06:27	sdegutis	fredyr: woot
06:27	sdegutis	fredyr: i cant say i fully understand how
06:27	sdegutis	fredyr: but on the other hand, i also cant say im capable of understanding how at this hour
06:28	fredyr	:)
06:30	sdegutis	yay i got it working
06:31	sdegutis	not sure my solution is super good but whatever
06:31	fredyr	cool
06:31	sdegutis	https://github.com/sdegutis/Beowulf/blob/master/Beowulf/BWFunction.m#L17-L20
06:31	sdegutis	and https://github.com/sdegutis/Beowulf/blob/master/Beowulf/BWEnv.m#L40-L45
06:32	sdegutis	im not 100% sure right now that envs need parents, but i vaguely think they probably should seeing as im setting them in some places.
06:32	clj_newb_2345	when a blah.clj file is reloaded, does its old go-blocks get killed?
06:32	clj_newb_2345	or do they continue to run?
06:34	sdegutis	clj_newb_2345: refheap.com it
06:42	sandbags	if i'm just html scraping is there an advantage to using enlive over clj-tagsoup?
06:42	wei_	I'm having trouble reading json POST params server-side. the params appear as an InputStream under :body in the request map, but when I read with slurp it's empty. any ideas?
06:42	sandbags	they're the two options (even if i think enlive is actually built on tagsoup) that seem to come up most often searching for clojure html scraping
06:45	cgrand	sandbags: enlive defaults to tag soup but you can opt for jsoup
06:45	sandbags	cgrand: ah, the author himself :)
06:46	sandbags	i get the feeling enlive is a complete solution
06:46	sandbags	for parsing & templating
06:46	sandbags	right now i'm definitely still a newbie so, in general, trying to reduce complexity of what i'm doing
06:47	sandbags	would you recommend clj-tagsoup (or jsoup) as a simpler alternative for the single use-case?
06:48	cgrand	(-> "http://..." e/html-resource (e/select [:#some-id])) to scrape a specific id
06:48	sandbags	hrmm... that does look enticingly simple :)
06:48	sandbags	sold
06:48	cgrand	sandbags: you d'ont have to learn the template stuff (which is 90% of enlive) to scrap
06:49	sandbags	yeah my concern was mostly about separating the two concerns but your example is pretty compelling :)
06:49	sandbags	thanks
06:49	clgv	clj_newb_2345: very likely they continue running, except there is some special implementation for that exact case in the lib
07:01	sandbags	for a tool i am writing that i'll be putting on github i need a way of configuring a username/password and some other details (but the creds are the reason).. i'm thinking the easiest approach is to use an EDN file containing a configuration map. is there anything better?
07:02	sdegutis	fredyr: what do you think of macro scopes? they should probably have the same kind of scoping rules as lambdas, right?
07:04	clgv	sandbags: define "better"! maps are used in leiningen for config as well
07:05	sandbags	clgv: i suppose by better i mean, more standard, more appropriate, "the clojure way" if that helps
07:05	clgv	sandbags: having config in maps is a clojure way
07:05	sandbags	but, thinking about it, i guess project.clj is just a map
07:05	sandbags	oh wait
07:05	sandbags	no a function call
07:05	clgv	yes it is
07:05	sandbags	:)
07:05	clgv	some macro magic for convenience
07:06	sandbags	but in my case a map would work fine... i guess i was just looking to see if there were shreaks of "No! No! You must do XYZ instead!" :)
07:06	sandbags	thanks clgv
07:06	wakeup	hi
07:06	wakeup	:)
07:06	clgv	if there are no special requirements just go for config map. since you do not have to implement anything additional for that you can easily change when requirements for the config are introduced
07:07	clgv	sandbags: ^^
07:07	sandbags	clgv: thanks
07:08	sandbags	here's something i'm having trouble googling up... if i want to package some of my own code as a private library and include it via project.clj
07:09	wakeup	Is there something like GNU readline (but with an LGPL/MIT license) available to clojure?
07:09	sandbags	is that possible, without publishing to clojars or maven?
07:09	clgv	sandbags: you can set up a privaten maven repository
07:10	sandbags	clgv: will i find myself clawing my eyes out long before i have a working solution? (I hear nothing much good about maven)
07:10	clgv	sandbags: I had success with "Apache Archiva". I also heard that "Artifactory" works
07:10	sandbags	i guess i was hoping there was a project.clj short-hand for "find library in ~/blah"
07:11	clgv	sandbags: no eyes clawing here, but I invested 2-3 hours to set it up
07:11	clgv	sandbags: do you have only one development machine?
07:11	sandbags	two
07:11	clgv	sandbags: well. then you will need a private repository
07:11	sandbags	well i can easily put the code in Dropbox
07:12	sandbags	i mean, i might just do that and symlink it into these projects
07:12	sandbags	since i suspect 2-3hr for you might be a monumental yak shaving party for me
07:12	clgv	not necessarily, since I did not use anything like that before.
07:13	sandbags	or i guess, i suppose, i could just put it on clojars and endure the shame of anyone ever reading it :)
07:14	clgv	sandbags: just have a look at the "apache archiva" page to see if it might be easy enough to setup
07:15	sandbags	(reading that now, thanks)
07:15	clgv	and maybe also the artifactory one
07:35	wakeup	Maybe a little OT: Imaine a propritary application, which includes a shell script that contains a pipeline like like 'somegplprg \| somepropritaryprog'. Is that violating the GPL?
07:39	jamii	I would have expected this to work: (case (class 1) java.lang.Long :ok)
07:40	jamii	Since (identical? java.lang.Long (class 1)) => true
07:41	vijaykiran	wakeup: In your proprietary app do you bundle the GPL program ?
07:41	jamii	Ah - https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure-dev/AB6A9u7ohSc
07:43	sm0ke	hello, i am just fresh to clojure and lisp in general. I am having hard time figuring out what to write in place of what i used to write in oop langs? For E.g. ..
07:43	sm0ke	An api which creates a object with some vals and then invoke functions on it?
07:44	ucb	sm0ke: can you be more concrete?
07:45	sm0ke	umm i am not sure... its hard to figure out where to start when all i have is functions!!
07:46	sm0ke	is defining records equivalent to oop in clojure?
07:46	ucb	sm0ke: you'll probably want to forget about oop for a while while you learn clojure
07:47	ucb	just think in terms of functions that operate on data structures
07:47	ucb	and you'll be fine :)
07:49	sm0ke	thanks... thats a start
07:50	TEttinger	sm0ke, have you seen 4clojure? good way to start
07:50	TEttinger	4clojure and clojuredocs
07:52	TEttinger	sm0ke, if you don't have it already, https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen is vital to clojure dev :) handles projects and can be used for all sorts of related things as well
07:52	sm0ke	TEttinger: i think i have some basic knowledge of clojure.. But my question is more about software design patterns!
07:52	TEttinger	ohhh
07:53	sm0ke	sounds boring but..i bet there must be some standard way to write clojure system
07:54	TEttinger	sm0ke, yeah think of it kinda like C, you have a main function (the top-level, and also -main in some cases) and everything gets called in order.
07:54	sm0ke	i was thinking exactly the same thing...but feared you guys will kick my ass if i say do i think like programming in C :P
07:54	TEttinger	sm0ke, if you're collaborating with people, you have namespaces that correspond to java namespaces
07:55	TEttinger	well C and Clojure are both not OOP
07:55	mathiasp	I'm puzzled: I wrote a small script to convert a simple csv to an html file, using enlive, running in immutant. The test.csv and the template are UTF-8, I have set JAVA_TOOL_OPTIONS=-Dfile.encoding=UTF8, and <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" /> in the template, and still I get iso-8859-1 in the output. Maybe even something else, recode complains when trying to convert the result to utf-8. Any ideas how I
07:55	mathiasp	can find out where this happens? It happens in the template and in the csv content. I'm stumped.
07:55	TEttinger	in some ways that's a big advantage
07:57	TEttinger	mathiasp, that is odd. some programs occasionally depend on terminal encoding too
07:57	TEttinger	if you use pipes then terminal encoding matters I think
07:57	TEttinger	windows has it as an ugly isssue
07:57	mathiasp	TEttinger: nope, I'm using konsole on FreeBSD, with utf-8 as encoding...
07:58	TEttinger	mathiasp, it's a small script right? can you pastebin?
07:58	cgrand	mathiasp: you have to set the charset/content-typ on the ring response map for the ring handler to pick the correct encodng
07:58	TEttinger	or listen to cgrand since he knows what he's talking about...
07:58	TEttinger	...and I don't...
07:59	sm0ke	i am finding this answer helpful http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5232654/java-to-clojure-rewrite
08:00	mathiasp	TEttinger: good, I'll do that :) @cgrand. thanks, I didn't try that since the response heeader showed utf-8, but now i will try it
08:01	sm0ke	https://speakerdeck.com/stilkov/clojure-for-oop-folks-how-to-design-clojure-programs .. i think i am not alone
08:01	TEttinger	sm0ke, good finds
08:02	TEttinger	clojure's built-in data structures are wonderful. advice #1 in that stack overflow post is on target for sure
08:03	tcrawley	mathiasp: if that doesn't work, and it smells like an Immutant bug, come see us in #immutant and we'll see what we can figure out
08:06	TEttinger	sm0ke, part that was hard for me learning clojure was the concurrency primitive stuff. coming from java, my instinct was to make every possibly mutable thing a ref, but it is generally better to just use clojure's immutable persistence and return/use new values (good performance on this too).
08:06	TEttinger	I've found atoms are pretty simple to use, but they all have uses of course
08:08	sm0ke	dont know what ref is but atom seems to be a paranoid's variable :)
08:09	TEttinger	something like that.
08:10	sm0ke	sorry i am just a newbie ..
08:10	TEttinger	a ref is a reference, it can only be modified in a dosync block IIRC
08:10	TEttinger	but
08:10	TEttinger	it can be read outside of it at any time
08:11	TEttinger	so you can have a ref being updated by multiple threads, each one waits for dosync to finish before starting its own modifications
08:11	sm0ke	sounds horrible
08:12	sm0ke	something like a sync {} block in java i guess
08:12	TEttinger	yeah ref is kinda verbose for simple modifications. but it's easier than manual locks.
08:16	TEttinger	sm0ke, in my clojure game, I really barely use anything other than atoms (I don't need multithreading because so much has to happen on the swing thread), and I barely use atoms either. for total performance intensive stuff I use raw arrays, but I didn't need the speed of arrays for most other stuff.
08:17	TEttinger	also, when you create a java object from clojure, it acts like it does in java, mutable
08:18	sm0ke	game in clojure?
08:18	sm0ke	are there enough libraries?
08:18	TEttinger	clojure has all of java's libs
08:19	TEttinger	I'm only using 3 or so total deps.
08:19	sandbags	sm0ke: have you seen https://leanpub.com/fp-oo ?
08:19	sm0ke	but i gues using java libs without syntactic sugar isnt as nice!?
08:20	sm0ke	sandbags: thanks ill have a look
08:27	Kototama	hi, how can I use ~/.lein/init.clj to define a function for my REPLs sessions? This won't work: http://cljbin.com/paste/52305b42e4b0cc31d37fe96e
08:30	supersym	sm0ke: this is something recent people have been working on the web side of things http://rigsomelight.com/2013/08/12/clojurescript-core-async-dots-game.html
08:30	supersym	for the rest, I don't think Java is famous for its game engines either
08:30	supersym	jmonkey or something I know of
08:40	czpqw	hey guys, has anyone tried playing with libgdx + clojure?
08:40	sm0ke	nice!! supersym
08:50	dcunit3d	whats up?
08:50	dcunit3d	i'm looking at the 4clojure problemsets
08:51	dcunit3d	specifically, the black-box testing problem, where you're trying to determine the type of a sequence (map/set/vector/list) without using reflection
08:52	dcunit3d	but the last test for this question requires that you distinguish each empty sequence type (http://www.4clojure.com/problem/65#prob-title)
08:52	dcunit3d	(= [:map :set :vector :list] (map __ [{} #{} [] ()]))
08:53	dcunit3d	is there any way to do that without try/catch
08:54	dcunit3d	i mean maps/sets always return nil when you ({} 1) or (#{} 1), but doing this with ([] 1) or ('() 1) will blow up
08:57	hyPiRion	dcunit3d: how do you get an empty version of the current collection?
08:57	clgv	,(doc empty)
08:57	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns an empty collection of the same category as coll, or nil"
08:58	clgv	dcunit3d: you got a hint per private message to avoid a spoiler for others ;)
09:00	dcunit3d	clgv: thanks
09:00	dcunit3d	hyPiRion: it's passed into the function
09:00	clgv	np
09:00	clgv	,(type (empty (range 10))
09:00	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
09:01	clgv	,(type (empty (range 10)))
09:01	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList
09:02	hyPiRion	dcunit3d: it was a hint :)
09:02	hyPiRion	,(= () (empty (range 10)))
09:02	clojurebot	true
09:03	hyPiRion	whoops
09:03	mdrogalis	Hahah
09:04	hyPiRion	oh right, yesh. Something about empty and conj and things
09:05	clgv	I also like manutter51's solution ^^
09:42	squidz	i'm reading into the new schema library and see that you can compose type shapes with using def like (def verb s/String). I also noticed that you can define using defrecords, but I can't figure out what the difference/advantage would be using one over the other? Can somebody enlighten me?
09:49	glosoli	is there something basic in Compojure to just cause reload of current route ?
10:15	supersym	you mean after you changed the route / file content the server reloads that?
10:16	supersym	https://github.com/pedestal/samples/tree/master/auto-reload-server
10:16	supersym	see how they did it ;)
10:18	sandbags	cgrand: enlive++ thanks again
10:27	xeqi	hiredman: did you write a clojurescript nrepl client?
10:32	deech	Hi all, how do I load use a generated class `(:gen-class ...)` from the repl? The file is in my source tree and I've restarted the REPL but I get a SOURCE_PATH error.
10:33	TEttinger	deech, is the class listed in project.clj as one of your aot'ed namespaces?
10:33	TEttinger	I think aot is needed for all gen-class using ns s
10:34	deech	TEttinger: I don't know how to do that.
10:34	TEttinger	deech, are you using leiningen?
10:34	deech	yes
10:34	clojurebot	yes isn't is
10:35	llasram	clojurebot's been hitting the sauce a little early again
10:35	TEttinger	:aot [deech.core] ;; this would be in your project.clj
10:35	llasram	deech: Backing up a level though, why do you want a generated class?
10:35	TEttinger	for whatever ns you need gen-class to be seen with I think
10:35	deech	TEttinger: Ok, got it.
10:35	TEttinger	also, what llambda
10:36	deech	I've got it to compile my core.clj file.
10:36	TEttinger	llasram said
10:36	TEttinger	you don't usually need gen-class for pure-clojure code
10:36	TEttinger	there are totally cases for it though
10:36	deech	TEttinger: because I need to extend a Java class that has multiple constructors. And I need to pass that extended class as a constructor argument to a class that I'm proxying.
10:37	TEttinger	ah.
10:37	TEttinger	devilish
10:37	llasram	deech: For that I would suggest writing a small Java stub which exposes the exact Java surface you need and then calls into your Clojure code
10:38	deech	TEttinger: So it compiled my deech.core, but I have another in the deech namespace with the gen-class that isn't getting picked up.
10:38	deech	llasram: Why is that a better approach? Not contradicting, just curious.
10:38	TEttinger	oh, it was a vector, you're supposed to just have all the namespaces to aot listed in the vector, sorry
10:39	TEttinger	also, the easy way is
10:39	deech	TEttinger: I have :aot :all in my project.clj. That's not enough?
10:39	TEttinger	:aot :all yeah
10:39	TEttinger	that works
10:39	TEttinger	ok, maybe it can't find the java source you're extending?
10:39	TEttinger	lein javac ?
10:40	TEttinger	java interop where another language has to imitate java... is a tricky business
10:40	llasram	deech: It gives you exact control over the Java surface you're exposing to the Java APIs which expect something which doesn't map well to Clojure semantics
10:41	deech	TEttinger: That's possible, but all dependency which contains the jar which contains the class that I'm extending is available if I start up the repl.
10:41	deech	llasram: Ah, thanks.
10:41	TEttinger	I've googled similar issues in the past. llasram is right I think, and it probably won't be a large java class to write
10:41	llasram	deech: From a practical argument, gen-class is semi-abandoned, and rhickey has moved to advocate the approach I've described
10:42	deech	llasram: Good to know. Thanks!
10:42	deech	Is there some document which shows how to include Java files in a Clojure project?
10:43	llasram	deech: lein has some docs...
10:43	llasram	Here you go: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/MIXED_PROJECTS.md
10:43	deech	llasram: Will do. Thanks again!
10:43	gfredericks	wait wait why does not-empty exist if seq is supposed to be the idiom for emptiness testing?
10:44	supersym	deech: http://blog.jayfields.com/2011/12/clojure-java-interop.html thats pretty elaborate as well on Java/clj interop
10:45	deech	supersym: Nice!
10:45	llasram	deech: And here's an example project using the specific approach I've personally found works the best: https://github.com/damballa/abracad/blob/master/src/java/abracad/avro/ClojureDatumReader.java
10:46	danielszmulewicz	Is Clojure prone to dependency hell (via maven/leinigen)?
10:46	deech	llasram: Whow.
10:46	kaw	:gen-class is semi-abandoned? What's the standard approach to creating a jar with a -main that can be used on the command line now?
10:47	deech	llasram: That'll take a bit to digest. :)
10:48	llasram	kaw: When I say `semi-abandoned` I mean that the kind of elaborate constructions it lets you generate seem to be considered a dead-end. If you just want a class with a static main you can invoke from the command line, it's still a reasonable approach
10:48	kaw	Ah, okay
10:48	kaw	Yeah, that's pretty much what I use it for
10:48	llasram	kaw: Alternatively, you can just use the `clojure.main` class. If you do `java ... clojure.main -m my.name.space ARGS...` you get essentially the same results
10:50	kaw	I think I prefer the other way for consistency with other command-line jars
10:51	llasram	kaw: There's also https://github.com/timmc/lein-otf
10:51	llasram	The benefit of that (and of core.main) is that you don't need AOT
10:52	llasram	I've come around personally to the opinion that anything which requires AOT is a Clojure design smell
10:52	squidz	if I use :foreign-libs in my cljsbuild which refers to a simple js file that contains console.log("test"), should that be printed out after compiling with lein cljsbuild once?
10:57	andrewmcveigh\|wo	llasram: that link to abracad came just at the right time for me. Been messing around with AOT/compile order for the last 30 mins and getting nowhere. Thanks!
10:58	danielszmulewicz	I have an issue I don't know what to make of it. I have a project that stops working if I add a particular dependency. I just note that the dependency references data.json, which is also being used elsewhere in the project. The error message I get is: No such var: json/write-str. But json/write-str is present in data.json! I don't understand.
10:58	danielszmulewicz	The error jumps very early, when I do `lein repl`for example
10:59	danielszmulewicz	How should I go debugging this?
10:59	TEttinger	danielszmulewicz, could they be using different versions?
10:59	llasram	andrewmcveigh\|wo: Hope it actually helps! :-)
10:59	TEttinger	also, make sure you're referring to data.json as json
11:00	danielszmulewicz	TEttinger: yes, but I played with the versions, making them match, still same error
11:00	andrewmcveigh\|wo	Yeah, I think it will. :)
11:00	TEttinger	it would help to see some code though, if possible
11:00	danielszmulewicz	TEttinger: Yes, they are referring data.json as json
11:00	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Re: dep hell; it makes dependencies easy, which leads to lots of tiny libraries, which can cause problems if they don't e.g. sanely use semantic versioning. But in my experience it isn't worse than anything else (Python, Ruby, etc)
11:01	danielszmulewicz	TEttinger: gladly, but what code?
11:01	andrewmcveigh\|wo	llasram: just deleting an old :gen-class block made me smile.
11:01	danielszmulewicz	llasram: no version locking like in ruby, isn't that a detriment?
11:01	TEttinger	danielszmulewicz, I guess the code that's throwing the error, and maybe project.clj in a gist
11:01	supersym	also tried `lein deps :tree`?
11:01	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Have you used `lein deps :tree` ?
11:01	llasram	heh
11:01	danielszmulewicz	llasram: yes
11:01	supersym	to see if there are dependency conflicts
11:01	llasram	supersym: jinx!
11:01	supersym	what
11:01	supersym	ffs lol
11:02	danielszmulewicz	supersym: the thing is that all recent versions of data.json have the fn write-str defined
11:02	llasram	danielszmulewicz: I've come the opinion that the leinigen/maven way is the worst possible dependency version-resolution system, except for all the others :-)
11:03	danielszmulewicz	TEttinger: the code that's throwing the error is in a dependency, not in my project
11:03	danielszmulewicz	TEttinger: in liberator.clj
11:03	TEttinger	maybe you have a weird version in ~/.m2 ?
11:03	TEttinger	ok, what's the project, liberator.clj ?
11:03	danielszmulewicz	TEttinger: yes, that's possible
11:03	llasram	danielszmulewicz: For a particular set of dependencies and versions, you will consistently and always get the same resolved set of dependencies+versions, exactly like Gemfile.lock
11:04	danielszmulewicz	TEttinger: I did `lein install`for the other dependency. IS that how I can reference a library locally?
11:04	TEttinger	uhhh don't google liberator
11:04	danielszmulewicz	TEttinger: :-)
11:05	TEttinger	I didn't honestly know that there was a class of pillow called "adult pillows", nor that one is the liberator.
11:05	danielszmulewicz	llasram: I noticed that the order in which you reference the dependencies play a role
11:06	supersym	btw danielszmulewicz you know about cheshire?
11:06	supersym	I always tend to use that
11:06	TEttinger	which library is throwing the error?
11:06	xeqi	danielszmulewicz: what do you mean by "reference a library locally"?
11:06	danielszmulewicz	llasram: if you have two dependencies that use a third party library of different versions, the first one in the list "wins"
11:07	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Yep. But consistently wins
11:07	llasram	danielszmulewicz: If there are problems, you resolve them via adding dependencies / exclusions
11:07	TEttinger	can you file an issue on the lib you're using?
11:07	danielszmulewicz	xeqi: I mean that I have a project I want to use as a library. It is not in clojars or maven, so I did `lein intall`, and then used the local copy in my .m2 repo
11:08	danielszmulewicz	Is this correct?
11:08	llasram	~guards
11:08	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
11:08	xeqi	yep, that should allow lein to resolve the project coordinates
11:08	llasram	danielszmulewicz: If you absolutely need to, but it's counter-recommended, because now your build is tied to your local system
11:09	danielszmulewicz	llasram: what are you suggesting for private libraries?
11:09	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Have a private artifact repository
11:09	supersym	you can take a clojars account
11:09	supersym	sorry :P
11:10	llasram	danielszmulewicz: For personal use, you can ^^ use clojars, or setup a repository in S3. W/in a company etc you can run archiva or nexus
11:11	danielszmulewicz	llasram: good, will do. thanks
11:12	danielszmulewicz	A ticket was opened on liberator: https://github.com/clojure-liberator/liberator/issues/14
11:12	danielszmulewicz	I have the same message
11:12	danielszmulewicz	However, without that local library, everything works fine
11:12	danielszmulewicz	The error only appears when I add the dependency
11:13	danielszmulewicz	It doesn't make sense, does it?
11:13	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Just double checking -- you compare `lein deps :tree` w/ and w/o your dep and have the same data.json version dependencies in both cases?
11:14	danielszmulewicz	llasram: yes
11:14	llasram	Yep -- that makes no sense :-)
11:14	danielszmulewicz	llasram: And write-str is present in all versions by the wa
11:14	danielszmulewicz	y
11:14	TEttinger	check .m2 see if something's wrong
11:15	danielszmulewicz	Yes, I suspect it's what lein install does. First question, should I aot :all or not?
11:15	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Idea: is the extra dep an uberjar which may contain the same namespace?
11:16	danielszmulewicz	the extra dep is https://github.com/ianbarber/clj-gapi by the way
11:16	danielszmulewicz	And it's not on clojars
11:16	danielszmulewicz	just github
11:17	danielszmulewicz	so if i want to bring this in my project, I need to do lein install and put it on a private repo, right? Are there extra steps?
11:18	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Convince the original project author to deploy a release to clojars :-)
11:18	danielszmulewicz	in other words, clj-gapi and liberator both use data.json, not the same version by default, but all versions have write-str so I don't understand the error
11:18	danielszmulewicz	llasram: yes, it's Ian Barber from Google, I'll ask him
11:21	danielszmulewicz	you were discussing aot compilation before, I'm trying to understand when it's required. I understand it's required for an uberjar, but outside of that scenario, are there other use cases?
11:21	llasram	danielszmulewicz: If you can fire up a REPL w/in the project w/ the dep, you should be able to use clojure.java.io/resource to find the file which will loaded for the data.json namespace
11:22	danielszmulewicz	llasram: good idea
11:23	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Using AOT compilation also means any `gen-class` (and semi for `deftype`) classes have real class files on disk, and thus may be loaded via e.g. Class/forName or other reflection methods
11:24	llasram	AOT does also improve load time, and (IMHO) makes sense as a deployment optimization
11:25	danielszmulewicz	llasram: OK, so the usual thing is to generate the core class with the main method, and the rest can be left as clojure source code?
11:26	llasram	danielszmulewicz: It definitely seems to be a common approach. Lately I've mostly been just adding wrapper scripts which launch via `clojure.main`, but it's pretty 6 vs half-dozen
11:27	danielszmulewicz	llasram: cool
11:40	danielszmulewicz	OK, I'll be redoing it from scratch. My purpose is to add clj-gapi in an existing, working project. I clone clj-gapi from github (https://github.com/ianbarber/clj-gapi). I type `lein install`.
11:40	danielszmulewicz	The message I get is : Implicit AOT of :main will be removed in Leiningen 3.0.0.
11:41	danielszmulewicz	But it does create the jar.
11:41	llasram	Oh... Oh!
11:41	llasram	Hmm
11:42	llasram	What's in the JAR? Did the AOT'd class files for everything end up in the dep?
11:42	danielszmulewicz	No, at this point only :main is aot'd.
11:43	llasram	Yeah, but so one of the big problems w/ AOT is that it has to transitively AOT compile everything mentioned by the AOT'd namespace
11:43	llasram	Which means AOTing anything usually means AOTing everything, including all of Clojure itself and all of your deps
11:44	llasram	If those end up in the resulting JAR, the AOT'd versions will be on the classpath, and preferred over the source versions provided by other JARs
11:45	llasram	danielszmulewicz: The JAR should be under target/ after you do the `lein install`. Just `unzip -l` it (or whatever is appropriate for your platform) to list the contents
11:45	danielszmulewicz	llasram: OK, so first question, can I add clj-gapi as a pure clojure source code dependency
11:46	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Yeah. Just modify the project.clj to either remove the :main key+val or add ^:skip-aot metadata to the namespace symbol
11:46	danielszmulewicz	llasram: now that I like.
11:46	llasram	It looks like the original author only marked it as :main out of inexperience
11:47	akmeena	,(into-array String ["foo"])
11:47	clojurebot	#<String[] [Ljava.lang.String;@4790c>
11:48	akmeena	How to denote a java array's class in clojure?
11:48	danielszmulewicz	llasram: you helped solve my problem. I bow to you, sir.
11:48	llasram	akmeena: For what purpose? Metadata type-hinting?
11:48	danielszmulewicz	llasram: it works now.
11:49	mpenet	,(doc make-array)
11:49	clojurebot	"([type len] [type dim & more-dims]); Creates and returns an array of instances of the specified class of the specified dimension(s). Note that a class object is required. Class objects can be obtained by using their imported or fully-qualified name. Class objects for the primitive types can be obtained using, e.g., Integer/TYPE."
11:49	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Awesome! Glad to hear it
11:50	TEttinger	akmeena, uh... it's a bit odd. you can type hint an array in 1 dimension with ^booleans I think, but 2d needs ^"[[Z"
11:50	danielszmulewicz	llasram: half aot'd projects are a sure way to shoot yourself in the foot, isn't it? But it must happen a lot among users who are not experts in java. Talking about incidental complexity. Clojure was meant to free us from it!!!
11:50	TEttinger	which is the JVM code for boolean 2d array
11:50	TEttinger	and can be gotten with a call, let me find it
11:50	akmeena	llasram: specefically I need to pass the class in gen-class's constructor spec
11:50	akmeena	so I can't use a function to return class since that's a macro.
11:51	llasram	danielszmulewicz: Well, there are good reasons technomancy wants to deprecate :main being implicitly AOTed :-)
11:51	TEttinger	akmeena, array of...what?
11:51	akmeena	URL's
11:51	TEttinger	just strings? ok
11:52	devn	http://emareaf.deviantart.com/art/Rich-Hickey-321501046 -- lol, not a flattering image
11:52	llasram	akmeena: You can hint as e.g. ^"[Ljava.net.URL", but
11:52	danielszmulewicz	llasram: Right. God bless him, by the way. He's doing an awesome job.
11:53	llasram	if you scroll back / look at the recent log, this just came up, and I highly recommend just writing a Java stub to call your Clojure for anything more complicated than a static `main()` method
11:54	akmeena	So no way to denote it using a symbol?
11:55	TEttinger	^"[Ljava.lang.String" or ^"[Ljava.net.URL"
11:55	TEttinger	err
11:55	TEttinger	wait is this a type hint?
11:58	akmeena	TEttinger: :constructors {[[Ljava.net.URL ...
11:58	TEttinger	uh
11:59	TEttinger	actually I don't know if [[ is right. also it may need to be in a string
11:59	TEttinger	,(class (make-array java.lang.String 5 3))
11:59	clojurebot	[[Ljava.lang.String;
11:59	TEttinger	so that's a 2D array of strings
11:59	TEttinger	,(class (make-array java.lang.String 5))
11:59	clojurebot	[Ljava.lang.String;
11:59	TEttinger	1D is only one [
12:00	TEttinger	but that should be in double quotes I think, otherwise it becomes a weird vector
12:01	akmeena	I'll try a string there.
12:06	jml	I'm working on an edn implementation, where's the best place to raise questions?
12:07	mimieux	Hi all!
12:08	mdrogalis	jml: Probably here.
12:09	mimieux	How would be a function with the same arity but different type args? (fn ([^Boolean arg] arg) ([^String arg] arg))
12:10	opqdonut	that's not really possible
12:10	opqdonut	using just a function
12:10	jml	ok. first up: edn strings can span multiple lines, and also can contain escape characters '\n'. But the equality section says that strings are equal to strings with the same edn representation
12:11	jml	which means that "foo\nbar" is not equal to "foo
12:11	jml	bar"
12:11	opqdonut	you should either do (fn [arg] (cond (instance? Boolean arg) arg (instance? String arg) arg))
12:11	opqdonut	or use a protocol or multimethod
12:11	opqdonut	mimieux: ^
12:11	jml	because the representation is different (escape char vs literal)
12:12	mimieux	opqdonut: Ok, I see.
12:12	mimieux	thanks
12:13	jml	second, it's not clear whether a reader should attempt to decode strings into unicode
12:14	mdrogalis	There are a lot of things that aren't clear about EDN. :/
12:28	llasram	jml: Can you elaborate on "decode strings into unicode"?
12:29	jml	llasram: how do you know if a string you get should be interpreted as a sequence of literal bytes or as human-readable text?
12:31	llasram	jml: Interesting that the EDN spec doesn't mention Unicode... I'd argue that Clojure's handling of strings is that they are pretty clearly sequences of Unicode codepoints, not arbitrary bytes
12:31	llasram	modulo the JVM 16-bit char wackiness
12:32	jml	llasram: if that's the case (and it's a reasonable guess), then it doesn't have an obvious way of sending literal bytes.
12:32	jml	#base64 "r0flcopter"
12:33	llasram	jml: Yep. And that's a known limitation of Clojure reader data
12:33	jml	llasram: ah, interesting.
12:34	jml	'#bytes (72, 101, 108, 108, 111, 32, 119, 111, 114, 108, 100)' perhaps
12:35	llasram	Yeah. It's not clear what the best approach would be. Maybe different ones for different situation :-)
12:36	jml	well, the prob with those is that they aren't very compact.
12:37	jml	the newline thing is perhaps more obviously a bug in the spec
12:38	ambrosebs	wow, nanopass compilers session at clojure conj! https://twitter.com/alandipert/status/377825887397216257
12:41	alandipert	ambrosebs: have you studied/used nanopass?
12:42	ambrosebs	alandipert: no, I'm looking at your links
12:42	ambrosebs	I just know Andy Keep is a boss.
12:43	ambrosebs	bbloom: are you familiar with nanopass compilers? ^^
12:43	supersym	haha
12:45	jml	anyway, I've filed https://github.com/edn-format/edn/issues/59 and https://github.com/edn-format/edn/issues/58 if anyone is interested in pursuing further.
13:00	alandipert	ambrosebs: chris frisz pointed me at a paper and i was enthralled, i did a little spike into a static clj and came to the realization that the real trick with compilers is organizing their insides. the nanopasses aren't unlike ring middlewares
13:14	je	why is the both a clojure.xml and clojure.data.xml they seem to have some overlap?
13:14	bbloom	ambrosebs: yeah, read the dissertation the other day
13:15	bbloom	will definitely go to that talk :-)
13:15	ambrosebs	bbloom: was it you messing around with multipass CLJS compilers?
13:16	bbloom	ambrosebs: i've been discussing with dnolen how to move away from our monolithic two-pass compiler to something easier to maintain and extend
13:16	ambrosebs	ah nice
13:19	bbloom	alandipert: yeah ring middleware is a reasonable analogy
13:25	alandipert	kovas: hi!
13:25	kovas	alandipert: word
13:25	kovas	psa: still drinking my first coffee
13:26	dcunit3d	has anyone used gloss?
13:28	llasram	dcunit3d: A tiny bit
13:34	dobry-den	Is there a simple way to lazily read objects from an edn file?
13:36	saml	(read-from (edn-file) lazily)
13:36	callen	bbloom: wouldn't the trade-off be compile time though?
13:37	llasram	dobry-den: Something like: (take-while #(not (identical? ::eof %)) (repeatedly #(edn/read {:eof ::eof} pbr)))
13:37	llasram	dobry-den: (where `pbr` is a PushbackReader instance)
13:38	bbloom	callen: yes, however, if you read the dissertation they talk about "micropass" compilers which are basically the naive approach & how their nanopass approach recovers much of that lost performance
13:38	bbloom	callen: also, in our case, it's worth pointing out that google closure compiler is already highly modular into passes & is, in fact, quite slow
13:38	alandipert	callen: i don't think, necessarily, esp. in light of persistent data. also with discrete pieces there may be ways to parallelize in ways previously very hard
13:39	bbloom	callen: CLJ is far easier to analyze than JS, so we could dramatically speed up the optimization process by doing CLJ-level tree shaking before doing JS level optimizations
13:40	bbloom	in short, they generate record data structures from grammars & then generate traversal code from pass configuration
13:41	callen	bbloom: seems reasonable. Thanks.
13:41	callen	bbloom: I actually need to simplify the parser in Selmer but haven't had time to attack it lately.
13:41	alandipert	also, easier CinC! (maybe?)
13:41	callen	It's a raw recursive descent parser and could be a lot nicer given a GLL
13:42	bbloom	alandipert: shrug i don't think that it would help there much, since Compiler.java is already monolithic & step one would be to just port it over more or less unchanged
13:44	alandipert	bbloom: it just seems to me that w/ nanopasses it would be much easier to target new things, possibly building on existing passes
13:45	alandipert	esp. a target in JS's ballpark, like java
13:46	bbloom	alandipert: i mean the compiler backend is like 800 lines of code. Targeting a new platform isn't the hard part, it's all the work around the standard library, macro system, interop code, build infrastructure, performance optimizations, etc
13:47	bbloom	alandipert: sure, a nanopass compiler would mean that the compiler could be 500 lines instead of 800 lines
13:47	bbloom	but shrug no big deal really
13:47	bbloom	the big win is in being able to share optimizations across backends
13:47	alandipert	i'm taking those into account, the things you list seem to map to passes
13:47	dcunit3d	llasram: i'm trying to find some examples. i'm looking on clojuresphere and found a few good projects there. i'm trying to parse data from the MNIST handwritten digits database, which is in a fairly simple format.
13:48	saml	http://cufp.org/conference/sessions/2013/t7-luke-vander-hart-clojure-tutorial is this worth taking it?
13:48	bbloom	alandipert: a lot of optimizations in Compiler.java are very java specific
13:48	bbloom	alandipert: there are a few things that are more general than JS in compiler.cljs
13:48	bbloom	alandipert: like tag inference
13:50	llasram	dcunit3d: There's also some examples in the gloss wiki. I don't really have a corpus of examples to point you to which would be better than ones you've probably already got
13:50	alandipert	i envision passes that do more platform-specific opt. are just just closer in the chain to final emission than the general optimizations
13:50	llasram	dcunit3d: If you run into trouble, ztellman is frequently on this channel
13:50	llasram	Oh, and is here now apparently
13:50	ztellman	yes, I got dinged
13:50	llasram	hah
13:51	dcunit3d	cool
13:51	ztellman	but yeah, let me know if you have any questions re: gloss
13:51	bbloom	alandipert: yeah, absolutely. all i'm saying is that spinning up a new backend is actually pretty easy & i actually probably easier to do with a monolithic backend, since we already have a model to follow.
13:52	bbloom	alandipert: don't get me wrong. i'd rather see lots of small passes, just don't think that easier new backend is a motivation for that. i'm much more interested in shared analysis & optimization + easier reasoning about those things.
13:52	ztellman	alandipert: did you score tickets to StrangeLoop?
13:53	alandipert	ztellman: yeah man and i'm amped!
13:53	ztellman	cool, see you there
13:53	alandipert	bbloom: dream big :-)
13:53	bbloom	alandipert: if you wanna dream big, then you should talk to tbaldridge about doing an SSA intermediate target & compiling that to JVM or JS :-)
13:54	mdrogalis	ztellman: Did anyone ever reply to your tweet about Java getting booted from Script Bowl?
13:54	alandipert	bbloom: gclosure does my SSA ;-)
13:54	ztellman	mdrogalis: nope, but I wasn't really serious
13:55	bbloom	alandipert: for alternative backends? :-P
13:55	mdrogalis	ztellman: I got a good laugh out of it, anyway.
13:58	alandipert	bbloom: SSA could be a pass, no? multiple passes even
13:59	alandipert	ztellman: are you gonna be there for ELC or workshops?
14:00	ztellman	alandipert: ELC
14:00	bbloom	alandipert: conversion to SSA would be a pass & then there are many SSA optimization you (or LLVM or whatever) could perform. then you'd have an SSA->target code generation pass
14:01	bbloom	alandipert: let me be clear: smaller simpler passes are a very good thing that will make the compiler better in many many ways
14:02	bbloom	alandipert: however in terms of time-to-CinC, i don't think it will make anything faster or dramatically easier, since the problems are practically unrelated to the complexity of the code generator which is the (currently) final and most platform specific pass
14:02	bbloom	alandipert: there are lots of little optimizations that we can do that will make our lives easier for code generation
14:03	bbloom	alandipert: for example, we talked about ANF transform which will mean we don't need to do those (function() { })() scope thinggies in JS. similar simplifications would be available for the JVM
14:05	bbloom	so yeah, nanopass would benefit code generation to some extent, but not nearly to the same degree as analysis & optimization
14:05	alandipert	bbloom: i guess i feel differently re: CinC, as i see conforming to target platform idioms/constraints as a kind of optimization, made easier when the compiler framework isn't allowed to make many assumptions about target
14:05	bbloom	bb in a bit
14:05	alandipert	bbloom: oh hey are you strangelooping btw? would be awesome to hang again
14:05	bbloom	i'll be at the conj, but probably not strange loop
14:05	bbloom	brb
14:23	mmitchell	Could anyone here recommend a Clojure validation lib? Kinda looks like bouncer and validateur are the main choices? Anyone here have experience with either of them?
14:31	Leonidas	Is there a better solution for something linke (if (contains? @cache (first args)) (@cache (first args)) …)?
14:32	Leonidas	I'm kinda annoyed by having to do the cache lookup basically twice.
14:32	metellus	if-let
14:32	Leonidas	thanks
14:32	tbaldridge	Leonidas: look up clojure core.cache https://github.com/clojure/core.cache
14:32	Bronsa	Leonidas: if-let + find
14:32	bbloom	Leonidas: you shouldn't deref (the @) twice in a row if somebody else can invalidate the cache out from under you
14:32	Leonidas	tbaldridge: that's overkill, my cache is just a Map :)
14:32	tbaldridge	Leonidas: has memorizing wrappers, if you need that.
14:32	tbaldridge	kk
14:33	Leonidas	tbaldridge: jup, I was playing with a recursive memorizing macro :)
14:33	Leonidas	bbloom: yup, I was thinking about this too. Not likely to happen, since the cache is local, but something I'd better avoid in any case :)
14:45	ToBeReplaced	where can i learn the difference between ILookup and Associative?
14:46	ToBeReplaced	nvm, just looking at the java works
14:47	ToBeReplaced	I'm wondering if maybe we should document that more... I don't like when libraries say "accepts a map" when they mean "ILookup"
14:48	ToBeReplaced	or worse when "accepts a map" doesn't accept records
14:57	tbaldridge	ToBeReplaced: who does that? (maps not records)
15:01	ToBeReplaced	tbaldridge: clj-http
15:01	tylere	Is there any way to get something sort of paredit-like in intellij for closure? E.g. something that constantly reformats code alignment and keeping everything pared up.
15:02	ToBeReplaced	tbaldridge: try (client/get "http://www.google.com" {:connection-manager (make-reusable-conn-manager)})
15:02	ToBeReplaced	then do it again with the map as a record
15:03	tbaldridge	ToBeReplaced: ick, I'd love to know why that bug exists
15:05	ToBeReplaced	tbaldridge: maps are functions, records aren't
15:06	nDuff	tylere: ...it exists, but it's not as good as the canonical emacs implementation.
15:06	supersym	/join #linguistics
15:06	tbaldridge	, (do (defrecord Foo [x]) (:x (->Foo 42)))
15:06	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
15:06	tbaldridge	ToBeReplaced: it works in a real repl
15:07	mdrogalis	Can anyone expand on what Rich is trying to say at 8:20? http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Design-Composition-Performance
15:07	ToBeReplaced	do it the other way aroud ((->Foo 42) :x)
15:08	mdrogalis	Is he advocating using constructs like deftype more for problem logic and maps/sets for solution logic?
15:08	tbaldridge	ToBeReplaced: ah I see
15:08	mdrogalis	Like, I get the idea. I just don't get how to put it into practice.
15:08	Bronsa	ToBeReplaced: that has nothing to do with Associative or ILookup, it's because record don't implement IFn (I wonder why)
15:09	ToBeReplaced	right; the issue is that clj-http requires your "m" to implement IFn ... where a reasonable guess woudl have been you just need Associative
15:11	ToBeReplaced	Bronsa: my point was more that we use "map" everywhere, and that's a pain, because sometimes I just want to pass an ILookup or a Record, and i tend not to know if it will work
15:11	tbaldridge	mdrogalis: the gist is that we should not conflate data with code.
15:12	tbaldridge	mdrogalis: so yes, use maps,sets,vectors for data. Only resort to deftype/defrecord when you need better performance.
15:13	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: I find that conclusion kind of conflicting. It's not that I disagree with your first statement, but I was always under the impression that deftype was there to carve out abstractions in the problem space.
15:14	hiredman	deftype is not abstract at all
15:14	dnolen	bbloom: http://vimeo.com/74314050, great stuff from Jonathan Edwards
15:14	bbloom	dnolen: love that guy! will definitely watch it soon
15:15	tbaldridge	mdrogalis: not really. You can do good abstraction via pure data and multimethods. It's just that these things were way to slow to build an entire language off of (like cljs)
15:15	dnolen	mdrogalis: protocols carve out the abstractions, deftype fills in the blanks
15:15	tbaldridge	dnolen: lol, just got an email for that video
15:15	mdrogalis	dnolen: What does fill in the blanks mean?
15:16	dnolen	mdrogalis: ISeq is the big idea, the 20 deftypes that implement it make it work
15:16	mdrogalis	I kind of find that maps are so flexible in Clojure that the 'how to navigate' the map bit seeps through my entire program.
15:16	mdrogalis	So I think that's where I get tripped up about it.
15:17	mdrogalis	dnolen: Yeah, I suppose I shouldn't read too hard into the English idiom.
15:17	dnolen	mdrogalis: it can be problem in larger programs, core.typed and Prismatic's Schema look promising solutions
15:18	mdrogalis	dnolen: Was considering core.typed. It becomes a jungle after a while for sure.
15:18	tbaldridge	mdrogalis: yeah, I'm not saying "don't use protocols", there are times however, when I'm coding and I step back and say "Oh My....I'm using protocols like I would in OOP". And that's just wrong. So perhaps if you spend the first part of a project writing 20 protocols each with 5 members, you're doing it wrong.
15:19	dnolen	mdrogalis: it just depends on how much discipline you apply and what your timeline is. generally you don't have time to uniformly apply discipline, so you need something else
15:19	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: I recall someone, maybe Stu Halloway, driving home the point about that. I believe he was noting that protocols should have 1-3 functions ish.
15:20	mdrogalis	The topic would probably make a really good blog post on the front of more abstract design topics.
15:20	callen	I've done a really good job of avoiding protocols.
15:21	callen	but I'm not allergic to multimethods either.
15:22	asteve	what is going on here: (let [[a & other-a :as ab] @a-b])?
15:22	mdrogalis	Well, example in core.async: https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/async/impl/buffers.clj#L16
15:22	mdrogalis	Was that in the name of performance?
15:23	tbaldridge	mdrogalis: yes
15:23	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: The alternative being a multimethod?
15:24	callen	core.async is out on the hairy edge though. I'd argue most clojure users would be better served with multimethods.
15:25	callen	core.async only needs to be implemented once, you shouldn't use the unusual constraints and priorities of one library to inform design principles for your Twitter clone.
15:25	tbaldridge	mdrogalis: yeah, I wouldn't use core.async as a good example of idiomatic clojure code. The core.async CLJS code doubly so. We take tons of shortcuts in the name of performacne.
15:25	tbaldridge	*performance
15:26	mdrogalis	Got'cha. Yeah, definitely noted that the rest of the code is off-par. That one bit caught my eye though.
15:28	callen	technomancy: used paredit on my coworker's machine who is learning Clojure, immediately turned around and installed paredit on mine as well.
15:37	technomancy	sweet
15:39	technomancy	won't say I told you so
15:39	technomancy	but everyone else told you so
15:40	callen	technomancy: I used paredit twice, once before Clojure and once briefly after. It was finickier back then.
15:40	callen	I figured I'd end up using it eventually, just didn't know when.
15:41	dissipate__	anyone use counterclockwise with eclipse?
15:41	technomancy	~anyone
15:41	clojurebot	anyone is anybody
15:41	callen	dissipate__: nope never.
15:41	technomancy	dammit clojurebot
15:42	dissipate__	:(
15:42	callen	dissipate__: one of the philosophies of Clojure is that you should concern yourself with queries and results - values. Not "places".
15:43	callen	dissipate__: if you have a question, ask it. Don't concern yourself with how many "nouns" you can possibly derive arbitrary information from.
15:43	cored	hi
15:43	`cbp	Hello, what do people do when they wanna prevent getting/updating non-existing keywords on maps/records?
15:43	callen	cored: hi.
15:43	callen	`cbp: prevent?
15:43	cored	why isn't this equal (= '(:a :b) (conj '(:a) :b))
15:43	`cbp	callen: Like I'd rather they throw an exception than return nil
15:43	tbaldridge	`cbp: they don't. Sometimes I want extra keywords on a record
15:44	cored	callen: hello
15:44	callen	`cbp: that's pretty bad style. You might be trekking into core.typed territory perhaps?
15:44	callen	if you need to statically define a "this and only this" shape of a map.
15:44	tbaldridge	`cbp: in general clojure programmers prefer to let people do what they want.
15:44	`cbp	callen: Is it? I just seem to waste so much time sometimes hunting down misstyped keywords :(
15:44	callen	tbaldridge: except ask bad IRC questions. that's verboten.
15:45	tbaldridge	callen: touche
15:45	callen	`cbp: core.typed helps a lot with misstyped keywords. If you must throw an exception on a non-existent keyword, make it dev-only.
15:46	`cbp	callen: Ok I'll check it out. Sry for the bad questions :P
15:46	callen	`cbp: my vote is a debug/dev-only macro that throws as the alternate to a "get" or core.typed
15:46	callen	`cbp: I wasn't talking about your question.
15:47	`cbp	callen: oh ok
15:47	callen	`cbp: yours was fine and is pretty common/standard to learning the "we're all consenting adults" attitude of Clojure.
15:47	callen	I really really do not like Python-esque "throw on non-existence" behavior.
15:47	callen	really. Really. It's an obnoxious default.
15:47	tbaldridge	(inc callen)
15:47	lazybot	⇒ 9
15:48	dnolen	anybody want to lend a helping hand tracking this bug http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-586
15:48	dnolen	I've constructed a minimal repo after what's described in the ticket (see last comment), I cannot reproduce the issue at all
15:50	`cbp	callen: Oh btw I'm _still_ working on it :P. Just had to put some extra hours at work these last 2 weeks. Good news though, no more windows whining
15:50	callen	my attitude is that if you must catch situations where you want to enforce map shape, you might as well do it at compile-time with ambrose's baby. The awkward middle-territory of runtime exceptions just makes me stabby.
15:50	callen	`cbp: still working on what?
15:50	`cbp	callen: the sync stuff
15:50	callen	`cbp: http://hugoduncan.org/post/alembic_reloads_your_project_clj_dependencies/
15:51	callen	`cbp: are you doing it differently from hugod's alembic?
15:51	cored	read the documentation on the repl
15:51	`cbp	callen: I had no idea it existed I'll read it
15:51	callen	`cbp: I thought I emailed it you as a heads up.
15:51	cored	but it's still kinda weird, the parameter for the new item in the conj function is in the end; at first glance it's implies to me that th eitem will be added to the end of the list
15:52	cored	but it's get joined at the first element
15:52	callen	cored: conj is a generic "add to coll" function. If you need to worry about the "placeness" then think about the data type you're passing it.
15:52	callen	vector -> tail, list -> head
15:53	`cbp	callen: Got no email :(
15:53	jonasen	dnolen: I can reproduce
15:53	callen	`cbp: oh balls. I have no idea who that email went to then. Sorry!
15:53	dnolen	jonasen: can you gist your steps? It doesn't matter which file I modify I don't see the issue.
15:54	cored	callen: oh, great way to remember this, thanks
15:54	callen	`cbp: you should sync up ( http://i.imgur.com/wjANVCD.jpg ) with me on IRC more often :)
15:54	dnolen	jonasen: being able to copy and paste your steps will remove any variables here
15:54	cored	callen: which means I can use a vector or a list with the same function?
15:54	jonasen	https://www.refheap.com/18555
15:54	jonasen	dnolen: ^
15:55	callen	cored: http://i.imgur.com/RInU1Nr.jpg
15:55	muhoo	any clues as to anything i can do to mitigate lots of "Unexpected end of ZLIB input stream." in clj-http?
15:57	jonasen	dnolen: copy/paste messed up some of the commands but I hope you can follow it
15:57	coventry`	asteve: That is assigning the value from dereferencing a-b to ab, the first value of that to 'a' and the rest to other-a. http://clojure.org/special_forms#Special%20Forms--Binding%20Forms%20(Destructuring)
15:57	callen	muhoo: are you holding onto the head?
15:58	asteve	coventry`: ah, thank you
15:58	`cbp	callen: Its pretty much what I had. I just had a bit more care when needing auth for a repo + you could specify a profile on mine. The issue with conflicting dependencies remains though, and I have so far not much of an idea on how to solve it
15:59	dnolen	jonasen: so you had to touch two files to trigger?
15:59	callen	muhoo: is Accept-Encoding being set?
16:00	`cbp	I had a dream where you could switch profiles on the repl, like suddenly (sync! :1.2) :P
16:01	jonasen	dnolen: i don't know. no warnings when I touched the first file so I tried the other...
16:01	callen	`cbp: I'm getting close to needing that, but not quite yet.
16:02	dnolen	jonasen: yep can't reproduce
16:02	jonasen	dnolen: weird
16:03	jonasen	dnolen: I only need to touch core.cljs to get the warnings
16:05	dnolen	jonasen: yep can't repro
16:07	dnolen	jonasen: ok, typo in my require ns, can repro now. Thanks!
16:14	asteve	is clojuredocs.org deprecated?
16:16	noprompt	asteve: it's a bit outdated, but the majority of the reference is still relevant.
16:16	asteve	you can choose between 1.2.0 and 1.3.0 is that referring to clojure versions or clojuredoc versions?
16:16	mdrogalis	asteve: Clojure versions.
16:16	asteve	because it claims 1.3.0 is the latest stable on some modal where the clojure.org claims 1.5.1 is the latest stable
16:17	mdrogalis	asteve: The latter is correct.
16:18	noprompt	asteve: i would look at this http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.core-api.html
16:18	asteve	noprompt: thank you
16:19	asteve	mdrogalis: thank you as well
16:19	mdrogalis	:)
16:21	callen	asteve: clojuredocs is hella out of date.
16:21	callen	It will be replaced soon.
16:22	asteve	it was outdated in the late 90s? :)
16:23	callen	asteve: hella is Yay!speak, not 90s.
16:23	asteve	I remember using it in the 90s and then I stopped
16:23	asteve	I'm glad I stopped
16:23	asteve	:)
16:26	danielszmulewicz	I always thought that interactive and incremental development at the REPL was as prevalent with Clojurians than with other Lispers, but after reading about Stuart Sierra reloaded patern, where you reload the whole system after modifying code, I'm starting to wonder if things are different in Clojureland. I thought I'd ask here first to see what other people are doing.
16:27	danielszmulewicz	What's your workflow like?
16:27	callen	danielszmulewicz: like Sierra's.
16:27	callen	Mostly.
16:28	danielszmulewicz	Interesting.
16:28	callen	I used to have persistent sessions in Common Lisp but I got tired of worrying about it.
16:28	rhg	load a repl, code, reload and repeat
16:28	callen	it got almost Erlang-esque. yuck.
16:28	danielszmulewicz	You don't do incremental development at all
16:28	danielszmulewicz	?
16:28	callen	that's...not true at all.
16:28	callen	sierra's model of development is incremental
16:28	callen	it's just not especially stateful.
16:28	danielszmulewicz	ok
16:29	callen	which helps to keep local dev in sync with prod.
16:29	danielszmulewicz	rhg: you reload and when it's broken, what do you do?
16:29	coventry`	I do a lot of experimentation in a long-running repl without reloading, but I am not currently tracking a lot of complex state.
16:29	rhg	broken how?
16:30	danielszmulewicz	rhg: when the system is messed up
16:30	seangrove	Just wanted to double check, sohuld we change the Clojure license?
16:30	rhg	i also sometimes just evaluate short snippets
16:30	danielszmulewicz	coventry`: so you keep track of state mentally?
16:30	callen	seangrove: er, what?
16:30	callen	seangrove: you mean in the default project.clj or something else?
16:31	seangrove	callen: Just the mailing list again :P
16:31	seangrove	Also, we should consider a white-space clojure syntax
16:31	rhg	state is unneeded 90% of the time
16:31	mdrogalis	That number is scientifically well-founded.
16:32	danielszmulewicz	callen: so you never C-c C-k a buffer at the repl? I should ask if you're an emacs user first I guess?
16:32	rhg	or maybe more
16:32	coventry`	danielszmulewicz: No, actually I am just throwing the state away on each run, so I guess what I'm doing is a little like Sierra's workflow, but accidentally.
16:32	callen	danielszmulewicz: I do C-c C-k all the time.
16:32	callen	danielszmulewicz: I've been using Emacs for over a decade. How else would I do CL?
16:34	danielszmulewicz	callen: so how often do you C-c C-k and when do you reload the whole?
16:34	danielszmulewicz	system?
16:34	callen	(inc seancorfield)
16:34	lazybot	⇒ 5
16:35	callen	I refresh when I've changed a bunch of code and I'm too lazy to manually eval individual forms.
16:35	callen	I don't "reload" strictly speaking.
16:35	callen	I C-c C-k whenever I enter a new namespace.
16:36	danielszmulewicz	callen: cool. So when you do refresh, how do you do it?
16:36	callen	the same way Sierra does...
16:36	danielszmulewicz	callen: right, so you design your application in such a way that you can reload the whole system at the repl
16:36	callen	it doesn't take much "design"
16:37	callen	good habits in general will end up meshing naturally with how Sierra develops.
16:37	callen	unless you've got really strange constraints that are probably contrived.
16:37	danielszmulewicz	callen: how prevalent is this strategy you reckon in the community?
16:37	callen	I don't really care how many people use it/
16:37	callen	I care that people continually improve how they work.
16:38	danielszmulewicz	coventry`: when you throw away the state, how do you do it? Sierra style or you just restart the REPL?
16:39	callen	restarting the REPL is really annoying.
16:39	callen	anybody that had killing/restarting the REPL as part of their workflow needs the am-blamps.
16:40	danielszmulewicz	callen: :-)
16:40	rasmusto	callen: Is there a way to tell nrepl to stop running w/e infinite loop I sent the repl into? (from nrepl.el or otherwise)
16:41	coventry`	danielszmulewicz: I'm re-evaluating clojure.core and test-clojure into gensym'd namespaces. I effectively just throw those namespaces away. That is the extent of my state at the moment.
16:41	coventry`	rasmusto: C-c C-b.
16:41	callen	coventry`: IIRC you're working on something kinda weird anyway.
16:42	rasmusto	coventry`: thank you
16:42	dnolen	ok pretty sure I have a fix for CLJS-568, cut another release 1878
16:42	seangrove	callen: Ah, beat me too it
16:42	seangrove	C-c C-b is also awesome for a hung cljs repl
16:42	danielszmulewicz	coventry`: Interesting. But makes me more curious.
16:43	dnolen	if anybody wants to help me please try reproducing the error with 1878 http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-586
16:43	callen	seangrove: in the silly thread?
16:43	dnolen	thanks!
16:43	seangrove	callen: woops, meant coventry`
16:43	coventry`	danielszmulewicz: I'm working on a debugging tool. I want to make sure that all of clojure can run under it without breaking/breaking the tool.
16:43	noprompt	dnolen: have the new compiler optimizations made it in?
16:43	noprompt	dnolen: it's like laser beams fast now. i love it.
16:43	coventry`	seangrove: no worries.
16:43	callen	seangrove: you saw the silly license thread right?
16:43	seangrove	callen: Yeah, just a small sigh when it comes up
16:43	dnolen	noprompt: nope, it'll probably be while before I get around to it, but it my list of todos
16:43	danielszmulewicz	coventry`: oh, I see. That must come with its own challenges.
16:44	seangrove	If it changes that's cool, but I don't care much one way or another
16:44	callen	"IRC, where we discuss the mailing list", "mailing list, where we discuss the JIRA"
16:44	dnolen	noprompt: it won't be a dramatic difference, but at least we know we won't have that overhead to consider when benchmarking
16:44	coventry`	danielszmulewicz: Yes, it's quite challenging and fun.
16:44	seangrove	callen danielszmulewicz: But I agree with the repl bits - there's rarely much state to "throw away"
16:45	dnolen	noprompt: glad to hear, these kind of details make a lot of difference I think.
16:45	danielszmulewicz	seangrove: there's components like databases, servers, that's state too
16:45	seangrove	dnolen: Will check the bug out
16:46	dnolen	seangrove: thanks!
16:46	danielszmulewicz	coventry`: wouldn't be related with ritz, would it?
16:46	callen	danielszmulewicz: and there are smarter ways to manage those components than def'ing a dynamic db var.
16:46	noprompt	dnolen: it's exciting stuff. not having to wait a few seconds before refreshing the browser makes a huge difference.
16:46	dnolen	noprompt: agreed
16:46	seangrove	danielszmulewicz: Sure, but they can either be recreated or don't have to be touched. Every now and then something like the jetty server can be annoying, but you come up with functions that handle it fine
16:46	coventry`	danielszmulewicz: Yes, but if you're routinely testing at the repl with those resources, you're probably not working in the most efficient way.
16:47	coventry`	danielszmulewicz: No, not related to ritz. This is pure-clojure.
16:47	danielszmulewicz	callen: Yes, I suppose you mean sierra style. I agree it's a good strategy.
16:47	noprompt	dnolen: the seconds lost waiting for builds can really have an impact on the workflow.
16:48	callen	danielszmulewicz: sometimes. the point is to pause to reflect on what you actually want.
16:48	callen	Sierra's workflow is a reflection of that process, not reified perfection-in-itself as a workflow.
16:48	noprompt	garden is going to support clojurescript soon. :-) i'm super excited about htat.
16:48	danielszmulewicz	callen: fair point
16:48	noprompt	or rather, be available to use from clojurescript.
16:49	dnolen	noprompt: yep - it really wasn't CLJS was slow, just the way incremental builds worked. The fact that analyzer can get through about 15000 lines of Clojure ~1second on my machine ain't bad IMO.
16:49	dnolen	er ClojureScript
16:50	noprompt	dnolen: that's amazing.
16:53	callen	seancorfield: thanks for that MEAP coupon :)
16:53	callen	snagged me a JoC 2ed
16:53	danielszmulewicz	coventry`: not sure what you mean with routinely. I'm spending much time at the REPL testing stuff out, then I write what works in buffers, reload the system eventually, it's an iterative process. I'd love to know more about your approach.
16:56	coventry`	danielszmulewicz: The code for talking to those resources should be very simple. Most of the stuff you test at the repl should be with pure functions and data you would get from those resources.
16:56	seangrove	dnolen: This is the warning output from the current build https://www.refheap.com/60e1e83393484e38f22626947
16:56	danielszmulewicz	coventry`: oh, yes, we're in agreement.
16:57	seangrove	Will try with the 1878 release
16:57	dnolen	seangrove: that looks like completely different bug that 568
16:57	dnolen	seangrove: those are GClosure warnings, not CLJS compiler ones
16:58	dnolen	seangrove: will need a different ticket for that and a minimal case
16:58	seangrove	dnolen: Ok then, nevermind about it
17:00	dnolen	seangrove: might be a dependency ordering on recompile issue ... perhaps lynaghk's spelunking in Closure Compiler might deliver something more sensible than what's in closure.clj
17:01	seangrove	dnolen: I think that's what it was before, I was thinking about looking at it sometime soon
17:02	dnolen	seangrove: things definitely get out of order under incremental compilation, though I haven't encountered issues with that myself.
17:03	coventry`	What's the right way to get the unqualified symbol from the qualified? Like (symbol (last (str/split (name 'clojure.core/partial) #"/")))?
17:04	Bronsa	coventry`: ##(symbol (name 'foo/bar))
17:04	lazybot	⇒ bar
17:05	seangrove	dnolen: Yeah, I just haven't used incremental compile because of it. It broke early in my cljs days, and I just do everything via repl almost. I wouldn't mind using it though, so I'll check into it later
17:06	coventry`	Bronsa: Heh, I had "clojure.core/partial" as a string when I was testing out name. Thanks.
17:06	seangrove	Where is lynaghk's research on the compiler?
17:06	dnolen	seangrove: you'll have to ask him in person, not written up anywhere as far as I know
17:08	callen	It's a pity the pro license for Datomic doesn't let me disclose benchmarking results...
17:08	callen	Very nice stuff. :)
17:08	patchwork	callen: How does it prevent you disclosing benchmarks?
17:09	patchwork	That seems counterproductive
17:09	callen	It's pretty normal/standard for a product like Datomic, or .NET, to disallow disclosure of benchmarks.
17:09	callen	Well, considering how bad most people are at designing benchmarks, it makes sense to me.
17:09	patchwork	So it seems like they would provide their own in that casxe
17:09	patchwork	*case
17:10	callen	They could. I suspect they're busy/popular enough that they don't need to engage in 10gen-esque self-promotion though.
17:10	callen	hard to tell as an outsider though.
17:10	callen	Either way, super-pleased.
17:11	patchwork	Theme of the week: Everyone talking about evidence they can't show people…
17:11	kaw	Is there a way to suppress warnings for cljsbuild that aren't coming from my own code? I'm getting this every time I compile: http://lpaste.net/1592370575374811136
17:12	kaw	Alternatively, a way to eliminate those warnings, if they're something I can/should eliminate without digging into the domina code
17:12	bbloom	dnolen: lol! "pretty much incomprehensible to, you know, regular people"
17:12	callen	patchwork: well. I can't. I'm going to show my coworkers in ~2.5 hours but they're the only ones who'll know how awesome Datomic is I guess :)
17:13	callen	I'm tempted to adapt that Yahoo test for Datomic and see what it spits out.
17:14	asteve	this might be slightly OT but I'm needing help understanding defbolts and storm, I figured some people in here may use storm. here's the question: what is the purpose for ["word"] for a defbolt like (defbolt sentences ["word"] [tuple collector]...)
17:15	callen	asteve: an aside, if you aren't already, you should be following sritchie.
17:15	sritchie	asteve: that's the name of the stream that the bolt outputs
17:15	sritchie	asteve: so, other bolts can subscribe using that name
17:16	asteve	is that written in the docs somewhere that I've missed?
17:17	sritchie	asteve: I guess nathan talks about it here...
17:17	sritchie	https://github.com/nathanmarz/storm/wiki/Clojure-DSL
17:17	sritchie	but that whole page is confusing even for me
17:17	bbloom	dnolen: as soon as he showed that red/blue arrow, i knew exactly where he was going. i agree big time.
17:18	dnolen	bbloom: good stuf
17:18	dnolen	f
17:18	asteve	heh, well I'm glad I'm not the only one; thanks sritchie
17:18	sritchie	asteve: :) for sure
17:19	callen	sritchie: is there a clojure equiv to summingbird?
17:19	sritchie	callen: not yet, but I did a bunch of work on Cascalog 2 that pushes it in that direction
17:20	asteve	so, on another related note, I'm battling with upgrading storm for 0.5.2 to 0.8.2 and I'm getting a type casting errors for a number that I believe should be a long
17:20	sritchie	Cascalog 2 generalizes the execution platform idea...
17:20	callen	I was about to ask if Cascalog 2 was intended to accomplish that.
17:20	sritchie	callen: yup
17:20	rasmusto	any preference for auto-complete+ac-nrepl vs the nrepl.el default completion?
17:20	callen	sritchie: very cool. Thanks for your work :)
17:20	sritchie	so the datalog planning engine generates an immutable DAG,
17:20	asteve	I'm getting long cannot be cast to double and double cannot be cast to long when I attempt to use .getLong and .getDouble on the tuple
17:20	sritchie	and then a platform compiles that down to a physical plan, like a Cascading plan
17:23	bbloom	dnolen: so i subscribe to these same ideas as edwards, but i'm a little more radical in my stance. instead of dynamic/static split, i want arbitrary stages with a sliding scale of dynamic/static
17:23	bbloom	dnolen: in general, yes, stages go from more dynamic to more static. but that might not always be the case
17:23	coventry`	rasmusto: I just use hippie-expand or dabbrev, or whatever comes with emacs. But emacs-live seems to have some good autocomplete functionality. Never played with it myself. http://vimeo.com/22798433
17:24	rasmusto	coventry`: thanks, will take a look
17:24	bbloom	dnolen: also, i advocate for "capabilities" as a mechanism for controlling access to various features. so for example if you have first class environments, that's pretty dynamic & hard to optimize, but if you don't ever give the first-class-environment module to the next stage, then you can treat that entire stage as being sans first class environments. just as one example
17:24	tbaldridge	bbloom: I still question if it really makes things any simpler with the half-dynamic stuff. And he basically side-stepped the whole template error message thing by putting error message construction on the user.
17:24	sritchie	callen: I'm speaking about it at clojure/conj, btw
17:25	sritchie	so I'll have to have the storm planner done by then :)
17:25	bbloom	tbaldridge: still watching. will comment on that in a sec
17:25	callen	another reason to go to the conj. hrrrm
17:30	bbloom	tbaldridge: ambrose just wrote a whole thing about witnesses for types in core.typed :-) http://frenchy64.github.io/2013/09/08/simple-reasoning-assertions-core-typed.html
17:32	bbloom	tbaldridge: i think that it's a pretty reasonable approach. we've got the same issues in clojure where you fuck up and give a number instead of a map or something and you get a stack trace from deep in the app
17:32	bbloom	tbaldridge: if you just add an (assert (number? x)) somewhere, you're fine. you don't need to (assert (number? x) "Some friendly message") necessarily
17:33	dnolen	bbloom: tbaldridge: I agree with the idea that witnesses sound reasonable - sounds close to contracts and blame stuff
17:33	bbloom	tbaldridge: he alluded to it, but an even better solution is the "blame calculus" which is what folks are researching both for dynamic types AND things like concepts
17:33	dnolen	hello world in ClojureScript now generates 49 lines of pretty printed advanced compiled code
17:33	dnolen	I don't think we can actually get much smaller than that :)
17:33	bbloom	tbaldridge: it's funny, but creating inhabited generics is roughly the same as evaluating dynamically typed code :-P hence the same tech works on both
17:39	tbaldridge	bbloom: and is also the same tech used in the PyPy tracing JITs. bytecode tracing -> partial evaluation of the bytecode -> static type the byte code -> remove mallocs -> generate machine code.
17:40	scriptor	dnolen: wait, the days of 4000 lines of generated js are over?
17:40	bbloom	tbaldridge: haha yeah, that too! I'm telling you, partial evaluation & specialization via abstract interpretation is a big fucking idea :-)
17:40	dnolen	scriptor: absolutely not
17:40	dnolen	scriptor: but the dependencies in core.cljs are very clean now, you get what you use.
17:42	rasmusto	coventry`: ac-nrepl is pretty easy to setup, I'll go with this for now :)
17:43	coventry`	rasmusto: Oh, is it ac-nrepl? People were complaining about that here the other day. http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2013-09-09.html#14:15
17:44	rasmusto	coventry`: haha, no blood/sweat/tears here, but I'll take that under advisement
17:46	callen	ac-nrepl is really slow sometimes.
17:46	callen	people should still try it out, but z0mg it drives me nuts sometimes.
17:46	rasmusto	callen: it's all backgrounded though, right?
17:46	callen	it slows down my namespace switching hardcore.
17:46	callen	rasmusto: if it is, I haven't noticed.
17:48	rasmusto	callen: ah, I see what you're saying, typing "def" and waiting will make it chug a bit
17:49	callen	no, I mean nrepl-set-ns blocks for awhile when I'm using ac-nrepl.
17:49	callen	which sucks because my work-style is to jump from ns to ns when I'm testing assumptions.
17:49	callen	I don't do everything in (ns user) like some people.
17:49	rasmusto	callen: me either, I usually just do a c-c c-k and go from there
17:50	rasmusto	(which might be bad)
17:50	callen	I do the same.
17:50	callen	C-c M-n + C-c C-k
17:50	rasmusto	oh, does c-c c-k not change your namespace automatically?
17:51	callen	hrm. lets find out.
17:51	coventry`	rasmusto: no.
17:51	callen	nope.
17:52	callen	it just reloads the vars in that buffer.
17:52	callen	in their respective namespaces.
17:52	rasmusto	oh, you're talking about the repl namespace
17:53	rasmusto	if I want to run code "on the repl" I just drop it into a namespace that requires/uses the namespace with the code that I want
17:53	rasmusto	which is probably where my workflow is a bit strange
17:53	coventry`	rasmusto: It's awfully handy to be able to just type forms in and hit enter, sometimes.
17:54	rasmusto	coventry`: is it more handy than having those forms in a persistant buffer and just have to take one more step to delete it afterwards?
17:55	coventry`	Yes. I don't usually want a record of every dumb thing I tried. When I get the result I want, that goes in a unit test.
17:56	coventry`	If I learn something substantial along the way about the right/wrong way to do things, that goes in my org-mode notes. :-)
17:56	rasmusto	coventry`: okay, gotcha
17:56	rasmusto	coventry`: are you talking about undo history?
17:58	coventry`	No, I mean using the repl window. E.g. https://www.refheap.com/18560
18:00	rasmusto	coventry`: alright. I appreciate the advice. I bootstrapped my own goofy workflow, so its good to hear how other people do things :)
18:16	callen	,(get (Object.) :a)
18:16	clojurebot	nil
18:16	callen	yeah aphyr wasn't kidding.
18:18	technomancy	,(get nil :a)
18:18	clojurebot	nil
18:19	technomancy	wow
18:19	callen	clearly a function after my own heart.
18:19	hiredman	,(assoc nil :a 1)
18:19	clojurebot	{:a 1}
18:19	callen	,(assoc (Object.) :a 1)
18:19	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Object cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Associative>
18:20	callen	but nil can? d00d.
18:20	technomancy	yeah_whatever.jpg
18:35	dnolen	CLJS folks I've backed out format/printf - http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/48c8d0fafc18375876e10caf960a7c7da27ac308
18:36	dnolen	if I hear a lot of complaints I'll bring it back in but I can't imagine that people used it for much given it extremely limited capabilities
18:36	dnolen	it cannot be optimized away by GClosure because of it's horrendous design
18:36	dnolen	so it'll take some convincing for me to move it back in
18:38	dnolen	this also delivers an extremely clean core.cljs as far as dependencies go - a CLJS program that doesn't use core.cljs now only consists of 10 lines of code.
18:39	sdegutis	I remember saying "I like the idea of Clojure but the JVM startup time just isn't worth it"... back when I was using Bundler. (lol)
18:39	technomancy	grenchman!
18:39	sdegutis	you keep saying that word
18:39	sdegutis	i do not think it means what you think it means
18:39	technomancy	it's a fun word
18:40	sdegutis	technomancy: it reminds me of grinch and henchmen every time i read it
18:40	sdegutis	brehaut: heh
18:40	technomancy	that's no good; it should remind you of a high-school skinhead band
18:40	sdegutis	it succeeds in failing at that
19:03	callen	technomancy: I like typing grench :P
19:03	technomancy	grench grench grench
19:04	devn	gwrench
19:07	noprompt	GRENCH-MU-MU-MU-MAAAAAAAYAAAAANA!
19:09	noprompt	M-x james-hetfield-mode
19:10	noprompt	grench-a. may-na.
19:13	callen	noprompt: I don't think most Clojure users are confronted with the Java that often unless they're tackling weird/arcane problems.
19:13	noprompt	callen: in reference to the tweet?
19:14	noprompt	callen: when i wrote it i was thinking more of ClojureScript/JavaScript because interop is more in your face there.
19:14	noprompt	grizninch
19:15	noprompt	technomancy: the next lib i come up with needs a ridiculous name.
19:15	noprompt	i always wanted a lib called "blood"
19:16	technomancy	please do
19:16	noprompt	i stole "shodan" from system shock.
19:17	technomancy	https://clojars.org/shodan <- this one?
19:18	technomancy	(yes, duh)
19:18	technomancy	apparently your lib has connected to freenode
19:19	technomancy	SHODAN: please don't kill us
19:19	sdegutis	technomancy: but is grenchman production-ready?
19:20	noprompt	technomancy: there's a clip on youtube with all the S.H.O.D.A.N. quotes.
19:20	technomancy	sdegutis: we are rolling out a full factory run of grenchman units next week
19:21	noprompt	technomancy: be sure to have a counter somewhere on the README that says "X days without an accident."
19:21	sdegutis	shodan... is that the lib that somehow made me end up on the GlaDOS wikipedia page?
19:21	noprompt	sdegutis: haha! yeah! that happened to me too!
19:21	sdegutis	:D
19:22	sdegutis	i havent played portal or portal 2, but ive heard all her quotes. pretty funny stuff.
19:22	noprompt	sdegutis: did you ever play the system shock games?
19:23	sdegutis	only post-SNES games i ever played were Morrowind and Halo 1.
19:23	rasmusto	@_@
19:24	technomancy	the first system shock may have been contemporary to the SNES
19:24	callen	noprompt: yeah that's true.
19:24	noprompt	apparently @polask_1 just started following me. wow. imagine it beautiful girls following me on twitter.
19:24	noprompt	oh. wait. aww. it's a spammer. this day is ruined.
19:24	technomancy	yeah, 1994. predates Marathon even, wow.
19:25	sdegutis	and the only non-post-SNES games i really played were Super Metroid and 7th Saga
19:26	sdegutis	oh wait, how could i forget Final Fantasy 7.. i played that one a ton too
19:26	noprompt	super metroid was, as they say in basketball, a "slam dunk."
19:26	sdegutis	noprompt: that comes from basketball? no wonder they looked at me awkwardly at the last superbowl thing
19:27	technomancy	noprompt: I haven't actually played SS1; how does it compare to the second?
19:27	noprompt	was there ever a "First Fantasy"?
19:27	rasmusto	noprompt: this is the only "slam dunk" game IMO: http://www.talesofgames.com/related_game/barkley-shut-up-jam-gaiden/
19:27	noprompt	technomancy: i don't remember much about it. it didn't leave as much as an impression on me as the second one.
19:28	noprompt	technomancy: going through the wikipedia article brought up old memories and now i'm thinking of replaying them.
19:28	technomancy	noprompt: the second is pretty haunting
19:28	technomancy	lots of sheer panic moments
19:29	noprompt	sci-fi horror is such a great genre.
19:30	noprompt	"Irrevocable Fantasy"
19:30	sdegutis	heh
19:30	noprompt	rasmusto: hey remember NBA Jam? where you could, like, dunk from half court.
19:31	rasmusto	noprompt: you mean, "from downtown"?
19:31	noprompt	YES!
19:31	rasmusto	pippin/grant was overpowered
19:31	s4muel	he's on fiiiire!
19:31	s4muel	nba jam was the shit.
19:32	s4muel	BOOMSHAKALAKA!
19:32	sdegutis	alright, that was some pretty high quality bonding, thanks yall. time to hack on a datomic project
19:32	noprompt	there it is. there's the lib name. "shakalaka"
19:32	rasmusto	I knew it would come out eventually
19:33	rasmusto	"sjakalaka"
19:34	sdegutis	i wanted to name all my projects after FFVII stuff. my IDE is named Leviathan and my music app is named Bahamut.
19:34	sdegutis	but i think there's probably legal reasons i cant do that.
19:34	sdegutis	fortunately both those names already come from mythology so i can keep them. but I probably cant, say, name a new lib "Materia"
19:35	Bronsa	why not. "materia" means "matter" in italian
19:35	noprompt	sdegutis: so if i name my kid Bahamut, Squaresoft is gonna sue me?
19:35	noprompt	or worse, sue my kid?
19:35	s4muel	noprompt: no but your kid is going to be pissed that you named him after such a lowball materia
19:35	brehaut	you could probably name your kid squaresoft and they couldnt do anything
19:36	sdegutis	noprompt: no but if you call it Sephiroth they might
19:36	s4muel	noprompt: name your kid Quadra Magic.
19:36	sdegutis	oh man.. such an awesome materia
19:37	kovas	Bronsa: hows CinC coming? seeing a steady stream of commits
19:38	sdegutis	so i named my lisp interpreter Beowulf. i think its gonna catch on.
19:38	Bronsa	kovas: it's near, it's left to emit fn/deftype/reify and then it should be usable
19:38	kovas	thats awesome
19:38	Bronsa	there's an issue with loop/recur tag inference and primitive support is not exactly tested yet
19:39	kovas	definitely looking forward to studying it once its ready
19:39	noprompt	if technomancy didn't take grenchman i'd name my lisp interpreter that.
19:39	kovas	yeah hard to nail every little thing on the first try...
19:39	kovas	any idea what the compilation speed is gonna be like in comparison with the java version?
19:40	Bronsa	to be honest, I think it's going to be pretty slow.
19:40	sdegutis	noprompt: you have one too?
19:40	Bronsa	I havent done any performance work
19:40	kovas	i guess im wondering if its like 10x slower, or a 100x
19:40	Bronsa	kovas: there's plently of room for performance enhancements though
19:40	kovas	if its within the 10x ballpark, some perf improvements should close the gap
19:40	noprompt	sdegutis: oh. i've only written toy lisp interpreters. i helped out with the rouge project for a while.
19:41	noprompt	Bronsa: is that the Clojure to C compiler?
19:41	kovas	Clojure-In-Clojure
19:41	Bronsa	noprompt: no, it's a clojure to jvm compiler written in clojure
19:41	tufflax	where is cinc hosted?
19:41	`cbp	o_O
19:41	tufflax	or, where is the repo?
19:41	noprompt	Bronsa: that sounds cool?
19:41	Bronsa	https://github.com/Bronsa/CinC
19:42	noprompt	s/\?/./
19:42	kovas	Bronsa: once u get it working, putting some comments in would be very helpful :)
19:42	Bronsa	kovas: yeah, I know :)
19:42	Bronsa	documentation is going to be my main priority once I get everything to work
19:43	kovas	probably more value in that than on polishing the perf etc
19:43	kovas	awesome man
19:43	sdegutis	noprompt: ah right, mines probably at toy-level too, but i hope to use it for scripting mac apps: https://github.com/sdegutis/Beowulf/tree/master/Beowulf (doesn't need to be super efficient just for scripting)
19:43	Bronsa	probably more value than in the project itself kovas :)
19:43	sdegutis	i got it to do these things so far: https://github.com/sdegutis/Beowulf/blob/master/BeowulfTests/BeowulfTests.m
19:43	technomancy	Sephiroth is a hasidic concept referring to the names of God
19:43	kovas	yeah i think of the clojure code as a comprehensible explanation of the compilation process
19:43	kovas	no way i was gonna read the java
19:44	Bronsa	kovas: CinC is obviously never going to replace the java implementation but it's probably going to be real usefull for experiments/understanding how the compiler works
19:44	Bronsa	yeah, Compiler.java is a mess.
19:44	kovas	Bronsa: I'm not so sure about that statement
19:44	sdegutis	technomancy: only if you spell it differently though :)
19:44	kovas	Bronsa: I think the killer app would be better error messages
19:45	kovas	Bronsa: but who knows what technology is more possible with CinC
19:45	tufflax	And having IPersistentMap etc be protocols? That would be nice
19:47	Bronsa	tufflax: CinC is only a port of the compiler, not a full self-hosting implementation of clojure
19:47	Bronsa	that's going to be a lot more work :P
19:47	brehaut	sdegutis: i should mention, that javascript is painfully optimized for one shot runtime performance on webpage load; theres soem pretty horrible crap going on to achieve it
19:48	Bronsa	kovas: I have an open issue for that, it's going to take me a while but that's definitely something I want to try and do
19:48	kovas	Bronsa: yeah thats down the line, but still this is an important project for the long term
19:48	sdegutis	There are 2 things that make ObjC kind of crappy for something like Clojure.. one is that you can't tell when you should use nil or [NSNull null], and another is the lack of runtime reflection on functions, or being able to generate them properly with the right args.
19:48	kovas	(CinC)
19:49	Bronsa	kovas: right now my schedule is: make it work by the end of the GSoC (the end of the week :P), write extensive documentation, performance enhancements/error messages
19:49	sdegutis	Although I have a fix for that which should work in 99% of cases, and just have strange bugs if you try to do something super-fancy.
19:50	Bronsa	and hopefully get to standardize the AST between CinC/clojurescript/jvm.tools.analyzer, I'll have to talk with dnolen/ambrosebs for that
19:50	kovas	cool. Id love to see a talk on it at some conference someday
19:50	kovas	i think most people don't realize this project is happening
19:51	kovas	yet
19:51	Bronsa	yeah, to be honest I havent really publicized it, I want to wait until it's complete/cleaned up before releasing it and announcing it properly
19:52	kovas	yup makes sense
19:53	sdegutis	Bronsa: it'll still need the JVM though to run, right? (or node)
19:53	Bronsa	yes
19:55	noprompt	i'm not very good at "selling" clojure.
19:55	sdegutis	noprompt: thats cuz its free
19:55	noprompt	:)
19:56	sdegutis	noprompt: I've found that nobody starts giving Clojure a serious look until they're finally fully fed up with other languages.
19:57	rhg	is just a raw (let ...) ok for side effect code or should i do (do (let ...))?
19:57	sdegutis	noprompt: And no matter what language it is, people are usually content with whatever inconsistencies or poor abstractions of convolutions it has, whether it's C++ or Ruby or Python or Perl or Common Lisp
19:58	rasmusto	rhg: let has an implicit do
19:58	rhg	ik
19:58	rhg	i mean for style
19:58	rasmusto	rhg: ok, can't speak to style :)
19:58	noprompt	sdegutis: a friend of mine pinged me saying "i need a new platform for web development".
19:58	rhg	ya
19:59	rasmusto	rhg: maybe put it in a function with a ! in the name
19:59	s4muel	rhg: (defn side-effecty-fn! [] (let ...
19:59	s4muel	hive mind
19:59	rasmusto	hive mind!
20:00	rhg	its a multimethod, not my choice
20:03	rhg	basically it calls alter-meta! to insert a key and returns the value of the key
20:06	squidz	does anybody know why i'm getting this schema errror https://www.refheap.com/18562
20:07	sdegutis	My wife and I can't figure out what the Grenchman comic is referencing.
20:07	sdegutis	She pointed out that it's Simon Cowell, that part I didn't get.
20:07	sdegutis	But still..
20:07	technomancy	hint: it is a hyperlink
20:08	sdegutis	Oh. heh.
20:09	squidz	something is wrong with the stacked-power-form map. When I type in a simpler map it works, but I can't figure out why that map throws that error
20:09	rhg	https://www.refheap.com/18563
20:09	rhg	its the fn
20:10	squidz	rhg: what fn?
20:11	technomancy	sdegutis: you might have to go back a bit to get context
20:11	rhg	the multimethod im extending
20:11	technomancy	achewood is very high-context humor
20:11	sdegutis	oh
20:15	rhg	actually my real intent is a cache of sorts, maybe a global memoized html-resource fn, but thatd remove the ability to easily remove something from cache
20:15	clojurebot	Alles klar
20:16	technomancy	clojurebot: say something unexpected
20:16	clojurebot	No entiendo
20:16	rhg	ah
20:18	rhg	i had it not cache and even on my inet a few requests took too long
20:21	rhg	has anybody used core.cache?
20:21	ddellacosta	rhg: yes
20:21	rhg	hmm
20:25	hiredman	rhg: I would be surprised if anyone uses core.cache directly, I imagine most people who use it actually use core.memoize
20:25	rhg	ah
20:25	sdegutis	How should macros work in an interpreted (minimal) version of Clojure?
20:25	rhg	thx
20:27	sdegutis	I figured they should just be functions that have different evaluation rules: they're called with their args un-eval'd, and the return result gets eval'd. Should be that simple, right?
20:27	sdegutis	noprompt: rouge looked really neat btw, I wonder why it didn't gain much traction
20:27	sdegutis	And why rouge.io is dead
20:28	R_Macy	haha, so the discussion is somewhat relevant with the problem I'm about to has for help with
20:28	R_Macy	I'm getting the following stack trace: No such var: clojure.core.cache/through, compiling
20:28	R_Macy	When trying to: lein with-profile production trampoline run -m app.web
20:29	R_Macy	%/has/ask
20:29	R_Macy	Poking around on the web, and not seeing anything obvious
20:29	rhg	hmm, core.memoize may really help here
20:29	noprompt	sdegutis: we just stopped working on it.
20:30	noprompt	sdegutis: simple as that.
20:30	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
20:30	sdegutis	noprompt: heh
20:30	technomancy	hrm; I thought I had a dumb defmacro working in bus scheme
20:30	technomancy	but I can't find it
20:30	hiredman	R_Macy: you are refering the name clojure.core.cache/through with out loading the clojure.core.cache namespace
20:30	noprompt	sdegutis: also, i couldn't understand some of the code so i wasn't sure how to do things i wanted to do.
20:30	sdegutis	noprompt: happens to the best of projects
20:31	sdegutis	(or something)
20:31	R_Macy	hiredman leiningen must be doing, because I definitely am not
20:31	R_Macy	this is almost a base leiningen heroku template with minor modifications
20:32	noprompt	installing software and setting up a server is boring.
20:32	s4muel	R_Macy: And you've got org.clojure/core.cache in your project.clj dependencies?
20:32	technomancy	R_Macy: if it works in a repl then it must be pulled in by your dev deps or something
20:32	R_Macy	I'll try adding it to my deps
20:32	technomancy	you need to declare it explicitly if you use it directly
20:35	R_Macy	Very odd, I must be using a project that depends on it implicitly
20:35	R_Macy	including it in project.clj worked, thanks for the help
20:35	technomancy	it's not that odd
20:36	R_Macy	I think it's odd that it wasn't included in the template that has projects that depend on it
20:37	aka	noprompt: you've obviously never done a bunch of cocain with a drunk stripper and provision a server before.
20:38	noprompt	aka: wut? where is that going down?
20:38	noprompt	aka: that sounds neat.
20:38	technomancy	R_Macy: it's not a dependency of the heroku template
20:38	aka	noprompt: it's the only way to provision
20:38	noprompt	aka: i knew i was doing something wrong.
20:40	noprompt	what am i doing with my life?
20:40	aka	Well now you know. I like to think I might have changed your life for the positive.
20:40	noprompt	aka: i think so.
20:41	aka	I like to think I did something good for the stripper and did a decent deploy too. We both know I didn't.
20:43	aka	Anyone have a suggestion for a library for creating and altering torrent files?
20:43	noprompt	aka: the sad thing is i stopped drinking months ago. now, no one calls or texts.
20:43	noprompt	aka: perhaps cocaine and strippers will get me out of this sober funk.
20:44	aka	noprompt: I'm just getting out of my stop drinking heavy for a few years phase. I was pulling a real noprompt for a few years but I'm snapped out of it now.
20:44	s4muel	...six weeks later: that didn't go as planned.
20:45	aka	How many times has a night ended in a total blackout after starting with a proclamation of absolute sobriety?
20:45	noprompt	technomancy: cartilage head.
20:45	aka	More times than not I'm afraid.
20:52	noprompt	wow. yeah i just stopped drinking cause it was expensive and distracting.
20:52	geoffeg	I feel like this is much, much more complicated than it needs to be. Any suggestions? https://gist.github.com/geoffeg/6531708
20:55	noprompt	geoffeg: use a multimethod
20:55	aka	I'm finally getting into some serious development with clojure after about a year of full intentions to play with it. I'm curious if there is any value in using a lib like 0mq and proto buffers, or if I should try to enjoy some of the more "pure" facilities that clojure provides to handle that. Anyone have a suggestion in regards to that? I'm building a system that will be processing data in parallel locally
20:55	aka	but communicating to other nodes as well as distributing "large" files to all the nodes.
20:55	noprompt	geoffeg: also use keywords. {:cat "meow"}
20:56	noprompt	geoffeg: also break up your code in to smaller functions that have a purpose.
20:56	technomancy	aka: if you can use a centralized message broker your architecture will be dramatically simpler
20:56	aka	agreed
20:57	geoffeg	hmm, i tried it as a multimethod yesterday and decided it wouldn't work for some reason i can no longer remember :)
20:58	geoffeg	i'll try again
20:59	technomancy	you can try 0mq, but unless you have really unique requirements I would recommend against it for your first clojure project
20:59	geoffeg	something to do with needing to pass different params to the methods than was passed into the mutlimethod
21:03	callen	don't use 0mq for your first clojure project, yeesh.
21:03	aka	To be clear I am very comfortable with 0mq is the only reason I'm dragging it into this. Ideally this system wouldn't require a central message broker but I'm thinking I'll go that route. wow my life just got about 10x easier just from that little talk.
21:04	callen	aka: well, if that's kosher, you might as well go the whole way and use the core.async 0mq library for Clojure.
21:04	aka	Anything I should know about protocols before I dig in?
21:05	technomancy	don't use protocols on your first clojure project either
21:05	technomancy	or rather, on your first non-oo project
21:06	aka	Great, I don't get to do anything cool. I guess this app will just have to work instead.
21:07	technomancy	sorry; if you wanted fresh and exciting try #elixir-lang =)
21:07	aka	lol
21:07	noprompt	aka, technomancy is actually giving good advice. he gave me the same advice when i first came here and i'm glad he did.
21:08	aka	Yeah I am def not arguing it.
21:08	noprompt	no. fuck that. we're arguing now.
21:08	technomancy	I still haven't worked on any projects that justified use of protocols
21:08	aka	It is a little frustrating when people don't let you shoot yourself in the foot.
21:08	aka	yeah you're right I'm pissed
21:08	aka	right?
21:09	technomancy	also for goodness sake don't write any macros
21:09	aka	I probably just have a limited misunderstanding of what protocols are and what they provide
21:09	noprompt	technomancy: how would you do something like hiccup or garden w/o asking map?, vector?, or checking keys/meta?
21:09	noprompt	just out of curiosity.
21:09	noprompt	oh and btw, this an an argument. we're totally arguing right nwo.
21:10	noprompt	*now
21:10	bbloom	noprompt: what's wrong with asking map? vector? etc?
21:10	technomancy	noprompt: hiccup doesn't have any runtime polymorphism afaik
21:10	noprompt	bbloom: hiccup uses protocols.
21:10	technomancy	isn't it all precompiled into functions that take strings?
21:10	aka	oh sweet I have to use hiccup then
21:10	noprompt	whoops, that was @ technomancy
21:11	noprompt	bbloom: i don't think there is anything wrong with map? vector? etc?
21:11	aka	noprompt: could you do me a favor and spell "now" correct the first time when we are arguing
21:11	aka	it would me a lot
21:11	noprompt	aka: oh wut? oh no you didn't. that's it dawg the glove are off nwo.
21:11	noprompt	*now
21:12	callen	noprompt: are you trying to dethrone me as resident belligerent Clojure user?
21:12	noprompt	technomancy: so the record/protocol stuff is for perf?
21:12	technomancy	noprompt: yes
21:12	noprompt	or as i like to call it, "PERF madness"
21:12	bbloom	noprompt: and interop with java's interfaces
21:13	noprompt	bbloom, technomancy so should i go an pull out all the protocols/records in Garden?
21:13	technomancy	noprompt: what's Garden?
21:13	bbloom	it's also useful if you need to do some horrible dependency injection-style nightmare thing where you have alternate Whateverers that implement Whateverable
21:13	aka	man I love fighting on irc... I'm just tuff as shit on here
21:14	bbloom	which i've only never needed when interoping with broken ass libraries :-P
21:14	noprompt	technomancy: it's a Clojure -> CSS lib like hiccup
21:15	technomancy	noprompt: don't fix what isn't broken, but it doesn't sound like a good fit
21:16	callen	noprompt: yes
21:16	noprompt	technomancy: well, hypothetically here.
21:16	callen	noprompt: rip them all out. Do it for Lord Satan.
21:17	noprompt	technomancy: seriously. some insight would be nice. i feel like people never give me honest opinions. :-/
21:18	callen	I'm always honest.
21:18	technomancy	noprompt: I don't know anything about CSS
21:18	noprompt	i'm not gonna get "butt hurt" as they say.
21:18	callen	noprompt: protocols and records are probably unnecessary in Garden and you should remove them if you're willing to actually do so.
21:18	noprompt	s/$they$/"\1"
21:18	technomancy	if you were just starting, I would first ask if you really need polymorphism, and if you were really sure you did I'd tell you to use multimethods, which are a lot more flexible
21:19	technomancy	because I can't imagine dispatch ever being a bottleneck
21:19	noprompt	callen: i would be willing to.
21:19	callen	just use maps and functions. If you need polymorphism - maps and multimethods.
21:19	callen	and be sure of whether or not you actually need polymorphism.
21:20	noprompt	CSS has a lot more to it than HTML.
21:20	callen	I understand CSS just fine.
21:20	sdegutis	noprompt: alternatively you can use protocols and defrecords
21:20	technomancy	(css [:h1 :h2 [:a {:text-decoration "none"]]) ;-> "h1 a, h2 a{text-decoration:none}"
21:20	sdegutis	noprompt: or Ruby
21:20	noprompt	i could represent things as maps sure. but then during the compilation i'd be constantly frisking every map checking for keys.
21:21	noprompt	sdegutis: that's what we're talking about.
21:21	aka	You guys make it sound like adding unneeded complexity is a bad thing :)
21:21	callen	^^ do ho ho ho
21:21	sdegutis	noprompt: sounds like protocols and defrecord is what you want
21:21	callen	probably not.
21:21	technomancy	^ I would have structured this as {[:h1 :h2] {:a {:text-decoration "none"}}} because you're mapping several things to one value
21:21	noprompt	sdegutis: that's what i have. that's what were talking about not having.
21:21	noprompt	technomancy: unfotunately order matters in CSS
21:22	sdegutis	noprompt: oh, ok. why go away from protocols and defrecord?
21:22	technomancy	noprompt: ah, gotcha. yeah, I don't know the semantics enough to comment on polymorphism
21:23	sdegutis	noprompt: heh yeah, I got bit when translating my CSS to garden, because I often get lazy and do "margin: 30px; margin-left: 20px;"
21:24	noprompt	sdegutis: that's why i tell people to use multiple maps if order matters.
21:24	sdegutis	noprompt: oh I didn't realize you could do that, cool
21:24	noprompt	sdegutis: i think you can also use an ordered map too but that doesn't "look cool"
21:24	sdegutis	:D
21:24	sdegutis	it will once you define a reader macro for it
21:25	noprompt	sdegutis: oh yes, there's that. :)
21:25	noprompt	sdegutis: i have reader macros defined for the unit functions like #px
21:26	seangrove	noprompt: https://github.com/flatland/ordered
21:26	noprompt	technomancy: but is that the idea? to check for specific keys, etc?
21:26	seangrove	You could write a custom reader if you wanted it to look cool
21:27	sdegutis	noprompt: I tried to use those but wasn't finding that they helped any
21:27	sdegutis	Maybe with a better syntax highlighter they would have helped.
21:27	noprompt	sdegutis: everyone has things that work/don't work for them.
21:27	sdegutis	Unfortunately I can't allocate any spare time to work on my own IDE that might be able to fix that, because I've got to spend all my energy converting our site from MongoDB to Datomic.
21:31	noprompt	sdegutis: really the idea was to have a format as the base to build on top of. ideally garden stylesheets should look like clojure code.
21:36	sdegutis	noprompt: ah that makes sense
21:37	noprompt	sdegutis: in fact, i plan to update the README to encourage people to use the at-media function instead of the meta directly.
21:37	sdegutis	hmm interesting idea
21:37	noprompt	sdegutis: i've been making a lot of changes to the lib over the past couple weeks and there are lots of breaking changes in v1.0.0
22:05	coventry`	Why is import* interned as clojure.core/import* rather than just import*, like all the other special symbols?
22:15	clj_newb_2345	are there any clojure libraries for sending android push notifications ? (without having to install an ap on the android device)