#clojure – 2013-09-09

2013-09-09

00:00	arrdem	justin_smith: however a question that I've seen a few times is symbol replication in order to expose more structured APIs. This means that one way or another you wind up with (def foo my.other.ns/foo) repeated a bunch of times in order to get all the bits you want in one place
00:00	justin_smith	yeah, I just wondered if there was some subtlety I was missing there
00:00	arrdem	justin_smith: this is also A Bad Idea.
00:01	justin_smith	I think that comes from the .h/.c convention (and other variations on this), people wanting data / structure in one file and code / functionality in another
00:02	arrdem	yeah... (to the rest of the chan) for this reason why don't we have a (defn-) when we have (def-)?
00:03	justin_smith	(def- fn [] ...) is easy enough to use
00:03	arrdem	ah. defn- is a thing.
00:03	justin_smith	well I formated that wrong, but
00:03	justin_smith	I think it is def- that is not a thing
00:04	justin_smith	frankly I rarely think I need either
00:04	coventry`	technomancy: Special-casing it worked nicely. Thanks.
00:04	arrdem	yep. def- is not a thing.
00:04	arrdem	but you can def ^:private to the same effect.
00:05	arrdem	so... if you want to hide something you can? shrug
00:21	justin_smith	technomancy: any tips on using a jni lib installed via apt? I am getting weird issues and don't know if it is because of misconfiguration or a broken .deb or what
00:38	amalloy	justin_smith: tip #1: a clearer description of the problems than "weird issues" will help technomancy (or whoever) figure it out
00:46	dobry-den	What's the simplest way to write a map { :topic/created #inst "2013-09-07..." :topic/name "test" } to an edn file so it actually appears just like that, #inst and all?
00:48	cgag	pr-str i think
00:49	dobry-den	cgag: yeah thanks, that works
01:48	callen	http://euroclojure.com/2013/speakers/
01:48	callen	seriously, read it ^^
01:49	jack_rabbit	k
01:58	s4muel	that's quite a list.
01:58	callen	s4muel: read Tellman's bio.
01:58	ztellman	stole it from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Menard,_Author_of_the_Quixote
01:58	s4muel	I did, and laughed at the 'discarded as too easy' bit
01:59	s4muel	ah, the more you know.
02:00	ztellman	most of my bios are quotes from stories that I just read
02:00	ztellman	saves me having to figure out what the right amount of humblebrag is
02:00	callen	ztellman: never enough humble or brag in a well executed humblebrag.
02:00	callen	ask aphyr, he's really good at it.
02:01	ztellman	I'll ask for notes tomorrow
02:01	callen	ztellman: now you've pointed me to something fun to read. Thanks :)
02:01	ztellman	if you've never read borges, also check out Library of Babel, The Aleph, Lottery of Babylon, and Funes the Memorious
02:02	ztellman	also Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius
02:02	ztellman	(that's one title)
02:03	technomancy	I usually put "greatest sword fighter in the world" in the bios I submit
02:03	callen	ztellman: I haven't but he was on my list, I'll bump him up after I finish HMS Surprise. Thanks :)
02:03	SeanCorfield	callen: several of those bios are pretty funny but ztellman's takes the biscuit! (hi zach)
02:04	s4muel	the program page on euroclojure leaves much to the imagination
02:04	ztellman	technomancy: this is before you realize, midway through your talk, that your chances of being the biggest badass in the world have been stolen by an Aleutian with a grudge?
02:04	callen	technomancy: have you read The Expanse series?
02:04	ztellman	SeanCorfield: hey, it's been a while, I keep missing the SF meetups
02:04	ztellman	I should fix that
02:04	technomancy	ztellman: always nice to have the pressure ease up
02:04	technomancy	callen: I don't think so
02:04	callen	ztellman: I went to the last one, great conversations. I've resolved to start going more, you should too.
02:05	callen	technomancy: one of the characters is a coffee fiend supposedly. Thought it might be a character you could identify with properly.
02:05	SeanCorfield	ztellman: I'm taking a break from the SF meetups - after running them for two years
02:05	SeanCorfield	Amit is not so wrapped up in Runa now (he's doing Zolodeck) and has more time so I've yielded to him for a while
02:05	ztellman	SeanCorfield: will you be at StrangeLoop or the Conj?
02:06	SeanCorfield	both
02:06	ztellman	cool, we should catch up
02:07	ztellman	thankfully I'll only be listening at this one, so I have plenty of time
02:07	SeanCorfield	yup... lots of conferences this year: PyCon, Clojure/West, MongoSF, cf.Objective(), LambdaJam, Strange Loop, Clojure/conj :)
02:07	ztellman	gotta say, EuroClojure is going to be the high point for me, but that's only because I get to expense a trip to Berlin
02:08	ztellman	StrangeLoop's lineup looks amazing, as usual, though
02:08	SeanCorfield	Yeah, company's sending me to that... going to the conj on my own dime
02:08	SeanCorfield	EuroClojure looks like fun...
02:09	SeanCorfield	I'm off to England at the end of the month... for a cat show... :)
02:09	ztellman	wow, transatlantic travel with a pet
02:09	ztellman	that sounds fun
02:09	SeanCorfield	Next year, I'll probably speak at Scotch on the Rocks in Edinburgh in June, as my once a year tript to the UK
02:09	SeanCorfield	Nah, we don't take cats overseas - my wife is judging in Solihull, so we'll go see my family
02:10	ztellman	aha
02:10	SeanCorfield	We're making a run at an International Winner with a kitten right now over here in the US tho' :)
02:11	ztellman	what are cats judged on?
02:12	SeanCorfield	each breed has a written standard - there are 70+ breeds
02:13	SeanCorfield	it's all about conformation
02:13	SeanCorfield	except for "HouseHold Pets" - they're judged on beauty / cuteness :)
02:13	ztellman	are there activities they perform, or is it just conformation in appearance?
02:14	SeanCorfield	just conformation, although agility exists as a separate competition
02:14	SeanCorfield	http://catagility.org/
02:14	ztellman	Cat agility is fun for you AND your cat
02:14	ztellman	TIL
02:14	SeanCorfield	are you "just" attending both strange _and_ the conj?
02:15	SeanCorfield	^loop
02:15	ztellman	that and EuroClojure
02:15	SeanCorfield	ah, but you're speaking at EC...
02:16	ztellman	oh, I see, "just" attending
02:16	ztellman	yes, not speaking at either
02:17	ztellman	last year kind of wrecked me, especially the Conj
02:17	ztellman	I proposed a talk on writing a Go AI before I had written one
02:17	callen	egads.
02:17	SeanCorfield	and they accepted it :)
02:17	ztellman	it was a backup proposal
02:17	ztellman	I mean, in retrospect, of course that's the one they'll choose
02:17	SeanCorfield	I submitted three talks to cf.Objective() 2013.. and they accepted all threee..
02:17	callen	SeanCorfield: lol.
02:18	ztellman	but I was focused on the other one, which is the one I'm giving at EuroClojure this year
02:18	callen	ztellman: what's the talk aboot?
02:18	ztellman	callen: pure pretention
02:18	ztellman	it's called "States and Nomads: Handling Software Complexity"
02:18	callen	pretension?
02:18	callen	...nomads?
02:18	ztellman	basically Borges, Deleuze, and others as they relate to software
02:19	callen	monads...or nomads?
02:19	ztellman	no typos, nomads
02:19	ztellman	and not state, states
02:19	SeanCorfield	"States and Nomads"... cute :)
02:19	ztellman	I thought so
02:20	ztellman	btw, as a PSA, redefining 'and' and 'or' is not a very good idea when you're still writing a namespace: https://github.com/ztellman/automat/blob/master/src/automat/core.clj#L71
02:20	ztellman	the amount of time I've spent debugging something before realizing I need to use clojure.core/and
02:20	ztellman	I swear
02:21	callen	FSA compiler for Clojure?
02:22	ztellman	basically
02:24	ztellman	strongly influenced by Ragel: http://www.complang.org/ragel/
02:24	SeanCorfield	The last few years have made me a bit more cautious about proposing topics for conferences...
02:24	callen	I was going to ask.
02:25	callen	I don't believe I've ever given a talk.
02:25	callen	outside of my own company, anyway.
02:25	ztellman	SeanCorfield: yeah, I dunno, it forces me to crystallize certain ideas that would probably remain vague and unspoken without the pressure of the talk
02:26	ztellman	but it's pretty stressful
02:26	SeanCorfield	I got too adventurous one year and gave five talks at one conference(!) and spoke at three others as well.. way, way, way, too much!
02:26	ztellman	wow
02:26	callen	SeanCorfield - John Bunyan of our time.
02:26	ztellman	yeah, I ran into Nathan Marz a few months back, and he suggested just giving the same talk everywhere
02:27	ztellman	but I think I'd have to create some Storm-equivalent before that flies
02:27	SeanCorfield	Sometimes proposing an off the wall talk can really be a good thing to further your understanding but conferences can be a bit random about what they accept at times :)
02:27	callen	SeanCorfield: part of the problem is knowing what they're already tired of seeing by the time they look at your proposal.
02:28	ztellman	"man, another Go AI?"
02:29	SeanCorfield	I submitted "Learn you a what for great good" as an off the wall polyglot talk, "ORM, noSQL, and Vietname" and "Humongous MongoDB"... and all three got accepted so I had to create a lot of material
02:29	SeanCorfield	I should have just submitted the ORM talk (I don't like ORMs :)
02:29	ztellman	it seems unfair to accept all of them, honestly
02:29	ztellman	the assumption can't be that you've assembled the talk before submitting the proposal
02:29	SeanCorfield	But at least I got to talk about Clojure in the polyglot talk again
02:31	SeanCorfield	for next june's conference, the hint has been that a clojure talk would be accepted, so i mustn't grumble :)
02:31	ztellman	still, three talks
02:32	SeanCorfield	ztellman: the assumption is that you can deliver whatever you propose :)
02:32	ztellman	SeanCorfield: I'll keep that in mind in the future, I guess
02:32	ztellman	anyway, out for the night
02:32	callen	I wouldn't have expected them to accept multiple proposals either.
02:33	SeanCorfield	i've had two talks accepted at several conferences over the years... occasionally three... depends on the conference and the topics...
02:34	SeanCorfield	and I've picked up other speakers' topics when they've dropped out... which is not recommended to be honest
02:38	callen	SeanCorfield: re: cat agility - how do you convince the cat to obey you?
02:38	callen	I've scarcely been able to get them to visit me when I didn't have food in my hand :(
02:38	SeanCorfield	depends on the cat :)
02:39	SeanCorfield	we have a girl who was one of the first "clear rounds" on iCAT
02:39	SeanCorfield	and then she lost interest
02:39	SeanCorfield	so they do what _they_ want
02:39	SeanCorfield	but that cat loves car rides and hotels, and going out to dinner at restaurants with patios
02:40	callen	that's adorable ;_;
02:42	SeanCorfield	https://sphotos-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/554171_10151756477516055_1613185053_n.jpg that's our girl in her walking harness at the local mexican restaurant
02:42	SeanCorfield	she did iCAT precisely once...
02:42	callen	SeanCorfield: SO CUTE X_X
02:43	callen	okay, enough cats in Clojure. rubs temples must focus.
02:43	SeanCorfield	http://bangles.com/mystique/ <-- more cuteness (the same cat)
03:00	callen	https://gist.github.com/sritchie/6440578
03:08	TEttinger	SeanCorfield, damn that's a good cat. my tuxedo cat knows a command, bite and claw you unpredictably.
03:11	SeanCorfield	the current kitty we're running to championship https://sphotos-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1186771_645271042158938_913519589_n.jpg
03:12	SeanCorfield	callen: what was that apropos? thrift rings a bell but i can't remember what it is?
03:12	callen	SeanCorfield: nothing in particular. I'm kind of obsessed with Instaparse lately.
03:12	callen	SeanCorfield: Thrift is a protocol.
03:13	SeanCorfield	ah, yes... instaparse did seem cool... haven't had a use for it yet tho'...
03:13	callen	SeanCorfield: I might have an @work reason to use it soon.
03:15	callen	I might need a semi-custom query language to wrap datalog/datomic
03:15	callen	to that end, if anybody knows of a SQL parser in Clojure, let me know :)
03:36	ddellacosta	any experiences with Docker + Clojure app deployments?
03:45	SegFaultAX	ddellacosta: I've been toying with a project at work to use docker in our build server.
03:45	SegFaultAX	ddellacosta: Which for us is pretty damn close to deployment.
03:46	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: close enough for me…heh. Liking it? Bad things?
03:46	SegFaultAX	Docker is really amazing, but there are a few things I don't really get yet because I've only been doing it a very short while.
03:46	SegFaultAX	I don't really get how image maintenance works yet.
03:47	SegFaultAX	Like if I build an image off of x1, y1, and z1, and then at some point in the future I need to update them to x2, y3, z2 or whatever...
03:48	SegFaultAX	What I /want/ to do is create an image stack using the ubuntu base, tooling, and all the runtime stuff I need. Then at the highest level are my application images.
03:48	ddellacosta	hmm, interesting
03:48	SegFaultAX	I just don't really grok yet how that works with deeply nested stacks of images.
03:48	ddellacosta	gotcha. So, on a surface level, it remains compelling enough that you'll keep playing with it to see if it can server your needs…to kind of sum up.
03:49	SegFaultAX	ddellacosta: Yup.
03:49	ddellacosta	*serve
03:49	SegFaultAX	The other thing that isn't clear is security.
03:49	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: okay, that is useful info.
03:49	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: howso?
03:49	SegFaultAX	It provides excellent isolation, but I don't really know enough about the security model to say if it's safer than manually setting up lxc.
03:50	SegFaultAX	You should check out aufs, it's pretty sick.
03:50	ddellacosta	okay.
03:51	ddellacosta	are you talking about: http://aufs.sourceforge.net?
03:51	SegFaultAX	Probably.
03:51	ddellacosta	haha, okay.
03:51	ddellacosta	thanks for the info SegFaultAX.
03:51	SegFaultAX	It's the docker filesystem.
03:51	ddellacosta	ah, I see
03:52	SegFaultAX	I mean to say that's what docker uses.
03:52	ddellacosta	gotcha: http://docs.docker.io/en/latest/terms/filesystem/
03:52	SegFaultAX	Anyway, it provides really excellent filesystem-level isolation.
03:53	SegFaultAX	ddellacosta: The idea I have in my head that just seems so sexy is being able to have my build server turn my application into a docker image which it then pushes up to a private repo. Then I just signal all my servers to pull down the latest image.
03:53	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: that is so exactly the kind of thing I was thinking
03:54	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: which is why I wanted to ask about it
03:54	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: ideally I could have a setup for CI/integration tests too
03:54	SegFaultAX	I'm working on it in my 20% time.
03:54	SegFaultAX	Along with a few other projects.
03:54	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: which could be just a different set of configs w/same Clojure project
03:54	ddellacosta	yeah, that sounds super cool
03:56	SegFaultAX	ddellacosta: In my mind, docker is to servers as java is to applications.
03:56	SegFaultAX	As long as the JVM is there, I don't have to care about whatever is under me, it'll just work.
03:56	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: totally, that's a good analogy
03:57	SegFaultAX	That's not to say docker won't have its shortcomings (java certainly does) but it allows us to build and deploy our applications at a higher level of abstraction.
03:57	SegFaultAX	Heroku is essentially LXCaaS
03:57	SegFaultAX	Docker makes that attainable for us mere mortals.
03:57	ucb	SegFaultAX: I take it you're using docker in prod and liking it?
03:58	arrdem	LXCaaS?
03:58	ddellacosta	yeah, was going to ask the same
03:58	SegFaultAX	arrdem: LXC as a service.
03:58	SegFaultAX	ucb: Not in prod yet, no. But in my 20% time I've been working on a project to use docker in our build environment.
03:59	SegFaultAX	ucb: I'm still pretty fresh so I don't fully grok everything yet, but it's been pretty awesome so far.
04:01	ucb	SegFaultAX: cool. The reason I'm asking is because we considered it but deemed it to early to put in prod (I didn't do the assessment mind you so I don't know the details.)
04:02	SegFaultAX	ucb: Build environment seems like a good beta for that. Each build is run in its own docker instance, the artifact of which is a deployable image.
04:02	SegFaultAX	Not to say we'll start using it in prod, but that's the test to see if it's even viable.
04:07	ro_st	Cljs 0.0-1877 doesn't seem to be available yet?
04:08	ro_st	dnolen: is 0.0-1877 up? lein isn't finding it
04:08	ro_st	super keen to try your perf improvement!
04:14	ambrosebs	can anyone think of an inner class in the Java standard lib? just need to test core.typed's inner class syntax.
04:15	opqdonut	Map$Entry
04:15	ambrosebs	opqdonut: cheers
04:18	hyPiRion	Gurr, the EuroClojure lineup is too good, and the plane tickets are cheap too.
04:19	hyPiRion	My wallet will not like me for doing this
04:22	ro_st	hyPiRion: you'll regret not going far more than you will regret going
04:24	hyPiRion	ro_st: yes, which is why my wallet is crying at the moment
04:24	hyPiRion	Just need to find a hotel first
04:29	ddellacosta	woah, EuroClojure
04:29	ddellacosta	wonder how much a ticket would be…hrmm
04:30	SegFaultAX	Ticket + Hotel + Food probably around $2500
04:30	SegFaultAX	If you're going for the conference plus a little sight seeing.
04:30	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: probably have someone I can stay with. Mostly worried about plane tix
04:30	SegFaultAX	If you just want to go for the conference and live frugally otherwise, probably less than $2k
04:31	sontek	I was looking at conj today, they don't have the talks listed yet though
04:31	sontek	Pretty cheap for a conference though
04:31	ddellacosta	belch, too much this year probably…will save up to finally attend a Clojure conference in 2014 I guess. ;-(
04:32	ddellacosta	belch = blech, freaking spellcheck
04:32	sontek	http://clojure-conj.org/
04:36	ddellacosta	sontek: unfortunately, that one would probably cost me even more to fly to
04:36	scottj	I think it's an awesome venue for the Conj. If you fly into reagan you can't get more convenient than that
04:36	ro_st	i went to CW in Portland this year. was worth the 27 hours it took to get there
04:36	scottj	(granted having it in the town you live in is probably better)
04:36	ro_st	definitely going next year again
04:37	ddellacosta	just too much $…sigh
04:37	ddellacosta	can't wait until they start having Clojure conferences in Asia. That'll be the day...
04:39	hyPiRion	ddellacosta: That would actually be neat. Are there any major Clojure players (companies) in Asia?
04:39	scottj	hyPiRion: nope. just httpkit
04:39	ddellacosta	hyPiRion: none whatsoever that I know of
04:39	hyPiRion	:/
04:40	scottj	the author of httpkit is in Shanghai iirc
04:40	ddellacosta	Beijing if this is to be believed: https://github.com/shenfeng
04:40	scottj	ahh, yeah
04:41	scottj	ddellacosta: where are you?
04:41	ddellacosta	scottj: Japan, a development wasteland
04:41	ddellacosta	scottj: I'm being harsh, but not that harsh
04:42	ddellacosta	crap, I saw some company in China using a shit-ton of Clojure and now I can't remember the link
04:43	ro_st	they do Ruby there, don't they? -grin-
04:44	ddellacosta	ro_st: the hilarious thing about the Ruby community here is that it's all old-school, non-Rails folks, other than the foreigners they've imported (generalizing…kind of...)
04:45	ddellacosta	ro_st: what I find mostly here are PHP folks doing web dev from like 10 years ago, Java folks doing bank-related stuff, and the sad suckers doing game dev
04:46	ddellacosta	everyone gets paid shit, and works 60+ hour weeks
04:46	ddellacosta	I'm generalizing.
04:46	ddellacosta	Sorta bitter…sorry. haha
04:46	ro_st	that sounds horrible
04:46	ro_st	no innovation?
04:47	ddellacosta	ro_st: ah, I'm making it out to be worse than it is. There are definitely some folks who are really into doing cool, interesting stuff. I think it's just less common than, say, Silicon Valley, because naturally folks gather where the money is.
04:48	ro_st	i'm sure those people are there. you just need to find them and hang out
04:48	ro_st	start a Clojure UG
04:48	ddellacosta	ro_st: most definitely! I'm lazy, and have no one to blame but myself. I am going to the Hacker News Tokyo meet up on Weds. though, maybe I'll mention something about starting a Clojure UG/meetup/etc.
04:49	ro_st	absolutely. cmdrdats and i run the Clojure UG in Cape Town, South Africa. well worth the effort
04:49	ddellacosta	now that you mention it, I haven't searched for Japanese Clojure groups recently, let me see...
04:49	ddellacosta	ro_st: cool! Very good to know. Yeah, I'm sure it's worth it.
04:49	ro_st	hard work, and sometimes thankless, but in the long run, worth it
04:50	ucb	ddellacosta: if you're depressed about the state of affairs where you are, you should pay me a visit. Mostly sharepoint/.NET developers up here.
04:50	ddellacosta	ucb: where are you?
04:50	ucb	ddellacosta: Aberdeen, Scotland
04:50	ro_st	what's the current status of Clojure CLR?
04:50	ro_st	abandoned?
04:50	ddellacosta	ucb: honestly, I have nothing to complain about, I like living here. Just miss the U.S. dev culture sometimes (I'm an American).
04:51	ucb	ddellacosta: I know what you mean. There are quite a few cool things going on down in Edinburgh, but it's all pretty much monopolised by the oil industry up here (and their bloody share points!)
04:51	ddellacosta	ucb: haha, gotcha.
04:52	ucb	:)
04:52	hyPiRion	ucb: Hah, monopolised by the oil industry?
04:52	ucb	hyPiRion: absolutely. Aberdeen is (allegedly) the oil capital of Europe.
04:53	hyPiRion	ucb: That's more of an Aberdeeen thing, not Scotland itself, right?
04:53	ucb	hyPiRion: yeah, that's why I said that there are cool things going on in Edi/Gla. And until recently Dundee was a games-dev hive.
04:53	ro_st	oil be roight back
04:53	ucb	(until the big companies went bust)
04:54	hyPiRion	ah
04:55	ucb	for instance, in Edinburgh you've got startups like SkyScanner and big companies like Amazon. There used to be (don't know if it's still going) a startup that had built their product in erlang too (hyper numbers).
04:55	ucb	hyper numbers even
04:59	hyPiRion	Over here it's generally just Java, and perhaps some Scala.
04:59	hyPiRion	I wouldn't be surprised if I could count the amount of Clojure programmers on two hands.
05:01	sheldonh	when you use (=) to compare something of unknown value against something of known value (i.e. actual and expected), is there a convention for which comes first)?
05:03	ucb	hyPiRion: I'd be surprised if I could use more than a single finger to count the number of clojure programmers up here ;)
05:03	ro_st	we use known first by convention
05:03	hyPiRion	ucb: Well, I don't mean professionally :p
05:03	ucb	hyPiRion: me neither
05:04	hyPiRion	oh :(
05:04	sheldonh	ro_st: thanks
05:10	ucb	hyPiRion: yeah, oh well. :)
05:10	ucb	there's always IRC and stuff
05:29	jave	hello
05:32	ucb	hey jave
05:58	Apage43	ucb: The guy who built hypernumbers was a coworker of mine for a while, nowadays he's at mozilla.
05:59	ucb	Apage43: interesting. Does that mean that HN is dead? (well, vixo now)
06:00	Apage43	ucb: probably. At least in the sense of being an erlang shop.
06:00	ucb	right
06:00	ucb	shame
06:02	Apage43	or the current guy seems to just be working on it by himself
06:03	ucb	I hardly know Gordon for that matter :)
06:03	Apage43	current guy is gordon
06:03	Apage43	old guy who worked on it way back was dale
06:04	ucb	oh, right, dale
06:04	ucb	it did sound weird that Gordon was with mozilla now
06:04	Apage43	yeah ha
06:05	Apage43	Dale worked at Couch(One,Base) for a while, which is how I know him.
06:05	ucb	ah, I see. You sill work for CouchOne/Base?
06:06	Apage43	Yep.
06:06	Apage43	(That is we were working for Couchone, which became Couchbase after acquisition)
06:06	ucb	cool
06:06	ucb	right.
06:07	Apage43	quite a bit of erlang here.
06:08	ucb	yeah, no kidding :) Erlang and C/C++ I take it?
06:08	Apage43	Pretty much.
06:09	Apage43	a number of the extra tools that ship with it are python, but the server itself is erlang and C/C++
06:09	sheldonh	cool. you could call your staff directory Couchface.
06:13	Apage43	no clojure though (but I do use it for internal tools. Basically if noone tells me something has to be in any particular language it winds up being in Clojure.)
06:17	ucb	Apage43: nice :)
06:38	glosoli	hey, what's some good library for authentication ?
06:39	hyPiRion	$google clojure friend
06:39	hyPiRion	Oh lazybot's still down
06:39	sheldonh	that is a very big hammer answer to a very poorly defined question
06:40	sheldonh	(but i'm probably just knee-jerking to big libraries for small jobs)
06:40	glosoli	well I need to control authentication of users for my web app, with various restriction rules for certain users on certain routes hmm
06:41	glosoli	not sure how to be more detailed emm
06:41	glosoli	I could add that I am using Ring and Compojure
06:41	hyPiRion	glosoli: https://github.com/cemerick/friend should work then
06:41	glosoli	thanks
06:43	sheldonh	if it ends up feeling big, but you still want a library, take a look at https://github.com/noir-clojure/lib-noir
06:44	glosoli	ok thanks, gonna check it out
07:34	TEttinger	hey #clojure: if I (declare width) and then have a function to initialize width, (defn init [w] (def width w)) , will that def act as I want it and fill up the declared variable name?
07:36	clgv	TEttinger: thats wrong usage. def's are always toplevel
07:36	TEttinger	clgv, thanks
07:36	clgv	TEttinger: if you really must, you can use alter-var-root but I suppose you should change your implementation to a more idiomatic one.
07:37	TEttinger	how should I do this... I need to initialize the array stuff in the main program, but main imports this other module, and the other module needs to use main's array stuff after it's been initialized
07:37	zRecursive	,(doc ->)
07:37	clojurebot	"([x] [x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
07:37	clgv	TEttinger: do you really need that global value? if so for some kind of registry you can use an atom or ref as its value
07:37	hyPiRion	Pass it as a value.
07:38	TEttinger	it is only so other functions can have access to a worldmap once it's generated
07:38	clgv	TEttinger: sounds like circular dependencies which you should resolve
07:38	TEttinger	hyPiRion, you're probably right
07:39	TEttinger	actually that would be a better policy
07:39	TEttinger	just pass around one state variable, mutate the state if needed, pass it on? continuation passing style, kinda
07:39	hyPiRion	yeah
07:40	hyPiRion	TEttinger: In case it turns into a bit of an overhead to pass around, put dynamic vars into their own namespace, and on initialization do (binding [width w] (run-game-here))
07:40	clgv	sounds better that way ^^
07:40	hyPiRion	Won't handle mutation though, but it's at least good for constants
07:40	TEttinger	well unfortunately it needs much more than width, the width is so it can make sense of a 2d array...
07:41	hyPiRion	(binding [width w array arr] ...) then
07:41	hyPiRion	in either case, you can put everything in a map
07:44	TEttinger	ok, so hyPiRion, you're saying I should have a 3rd namespace that just has state, and is probably the only place with state, and just use bindings to the dynamic vars when needed? will the bindings stop once the scope ends on binding ?
07:45	TEttinger	ohhh
07:45	TEttinger	I get it now
07:45	TEttinger	it's looking up the variable, when it's bound it finds the right one
07:45	hyPiRion	TEttinger: yeah, that's how I tend to do it for CLI apps where those variables doesn't vary.
07:45	TEttinger	these will change, just not often
07:46	hyPiRion	ah. Well, I'd put those in an atom then
07:47	TEttinger	yeah, I can just def an atom with a default value and then have init give it a real value. easy
07:54	TEttinger	thanks hyPiRion
07:54	hyPiRion	np
08:40	muhoo	wat? i'm confused. i'm enqueuing stuff into a lamina channel, and getting stack overflows.
08:40	muhoo	oh, it's all one thread :-/
08:40	muhoo	dammit.
08:41	mdrogalis	Mooorning.
08:45	arrdem	grrrr don't say that
10:12	borkdude	does anyone know how to run one single feature with lein cucumber? say I have a x.feature in features/subdir
10:25	vijaykiran	borkdude: lein cucumber features --name "FEATURE NAME" seems to work :)
10:27	borkdude	thanks
10:46	gfredericks	would a clojure.lang.ErrorInfo class be appropriate?
10:54	silasdavis	can I do better than (merge original (into {} key-value-pairs))?
10:55	gfredericks	,(merge {1 2} [[3 4] [5 6]])
10:55	clojurebot	{[3 4] [5 6], 1 2}
10:55	gfredericks	o_O
10:56	silasdavis	yeah I was hoping that would work
10:56	gfredericks	oh dear
10:56	gfredericks	I think that happens because merge relies on the anomolous feature of conj
10:56	silasdavis	,(merge {1 2} '([3 4] [5 6]))
10:56	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
10:57	silasdavis	,(merge {1 2} '((3 4) (5 6)))
10:57	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
10:57	shoky	,(into {1 2} [[3 4] [5 6]])
10:57	clojurebot	{1 2, 3 4, 5 6}
10:57	kaw	,(into {1 2} [[3 4] [5 6]])
10:57	clojurebot	{1 2, 3 4, 5 6}
10:57	gfredericks	,(into {1 2} [[3 4] [5 6]])
10:57	clojurebot	{1 2, 3 4, 5 6}
10:57	gfredericks	silasdavis: ^ howsabout that?
10:57	silasdavis	kaw, shoky yeah I was hoping to do better than that, see above
10:58	silasdavis	oh, yeah I don't need merge
10:58	silasdavis	,(into {1 2} [[1 4] [5 6]])
10:58	clojurebot	{1 4, 5 6}
10:58	silasdavis	fine, duh, thanks
10:58	gfredericks	oh man I don't think I've ever been more unoriginal than that
11:01	silasdavis	hah, leading question
11:01	silasdavis	not to worry
11:03	gfredericks	I really like this catch-data lib I wrote a few months back
11:07	jjttjj`	anyone know of any good emacs packages that would demonstrate sending clojure code to nrepl in elisp? I'm blanking out here beyond clojure-test-mode
11:10	bja	jjttjj`: nrepl.el
11:11	technomancy	jjttjj`: nrepl-discover too
11:11	jjttjj`	Cool thanks!
11:12	jjttjj`	f
11:32	serycjon	:exit
11:33	konr	:wq
11:34	ambrosebs	is there anything special in the leiningen dependency string needed to download the "slim" Clojure jars from sonatype?
11:34	ambrosebs	"1.5.1-slim" doesn't seem to work.
11:37	squidz	with cljsbuild there are different builds that you can specify like {:builds :dev {...} :prod {...}..., but how do I specify I want to run only that which is in the :prod build?
11:37	xeqi	ambrosebs: try [org.clojure/clojure "1.5.1" :classifier "slim"]
11:39	TimMc	slim has docstrings and stuff removed?
11:39	ambrosebs	(inc xeqi)
11:39	ambrosebs	thanks
11:39	llasram	lazybot is still sick?
11:40	hyPiRion	yes
11:40	ambrosebs	TimMc: just AOT.
11:40	llasram	Poor thing
11:40	ambrosebs	TimMc: I'm not using it, just working out how to make a core.typed slim jar.
11:40	ambrosebs	seems to work!
11:41	silasdavis	,(clojure.set/union [2 4 5] [2 4])
11:41	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set>
11:41	llasram	silasdavis: all the clojure.set functions require their arguments to be sets
11:41	silasdavis	if that's the case don't you think it should throw an exception
11:42	silasdavis	rather than doing something unexpected
11:42	silasdavis	would be useful if it did a union and returned the input type, or at least a seq..
11:42	silasdavis	?
11:42	hyPiRion	Well, first you need to require clojure.set
11:42	hyPiRion	,(require 'clojure.set)
11:42	clojurebot	nil
11:42	silasdavis	,(clojure.set/union [2 4 5] [2 4])
11:42	clojurebot	[2 4 5 2 4]
11:43	hyPiRion	union is essentially a pretty way of saying into.
11:43	hyPiRion	with some speed tweaks
11:45	justin_smith	,(clojure.set/union #{:a} #{:b} #{:c})
11:45	clojurebot	#{:a :c :b}
11:45	justin_smith	,(into #{:a} #{:b} #{:c})
11:45	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$into>
11:46	llasram	silasdavis: Potentially, but GIGO is a pretty firmly embedded Clojure error-handling idiom
11:46	coventry`	justin_smith: union uses (reduce into).
11:46	coventry`	(For more than two arguments.)
11:47	justin_smith	it uses reduce conj for two args
11:47	coventry`	Yeah, I'm trying to figure out why that is.
11:47	mimieux	Hi all!
11:49	silasdavis	llasram, that's fair enough if it is garbage, but taking a union on non-sets is quite useful
11:50	bmabey	tbaldridge: this report is more for you but jira automatically assigned it to Rich: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/ASYNC-22
11:50	silasdavis	,(clojure.set/union #{2 4 5} [2 4])
11:50	clojurebot	#{2 4 5}
11:50	coventry`	Oh, into does (reduce conj) too, but there's some extra logic...
11:50	silasdavis	,(clojure.set/union [2 4] #{2 4 5})
11:50	clojurebot	#{2 4 5}
11:51	tbaldridge	bmabey: yeah, that's a bug, there's about 20 different versions of (. ) and I missed a few.
11:51	coventry`	,(clojure.set/union [2 4 5] #{2 4})
11:51	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set>
11:51	tbaldridge	bmabey: in the mean time, why not use (Numbers/add 1 2) ?
11:51	mimieux	Given the following (fn [& {:keys [host port]}] (println (str host ":" port)), is there a way to apply the following map {:host "localhost" :port 5555}?
11:51	mimieux	to match the fn args?
11:52	silasdavis	,(clojure.set/union [2 4 5] #{2 4})
11:52	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set>
11:52	silasdavis	,(clojure.set/union [2 4] #{2 4 5})
11:52	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set>
11:52	silasdavis	oh times out does it
11:52	bmabey	tbaldridge: I would if I was writing the code by hand but this other form is being emitted by another macro
11:52	silasdavis	,(require '[clojure.set :as set])
11:52	clojurebot	nil
11:52	silasdavis	,(clojure.set/union [2 4 5] #{2 4})
11:52	clojurebot	[2 4 5 2 4]
11:52	coventry`	Anyway, that form returns [2 4 5 2 4], because set orders the arguments by length.
11:52	silasdavis	,(clojure.set/union #{2 4 5} [2 4])
11:52	clojurebot	#{2 4 5}
11:53	coventry`	Seems a little sketchy. :-)
11:53	silasdavis	,(clojure.set/union [2 4] #{2 4 5})
11:53	clojurebot	#{2 4 5}
11:53	silasdavis	,(clojure.set/union [2 4 5] #{2 4 5})
11:53	clojurebot	[2 4 5 2 4 ...]
11:53	silasdavis	coventry`, yes!
11:54	silasdavis	is there a forum for suggesting improvements to core libraries?
11:54	AimHere	,(clojure.set/union '(2 4) #{2 4 5})
11:54	clojurebot	#{2 4 5}
11:54	AimHere	,(clojure.set/union '(2 4) [2 4 5])
11:54	clojurebot	[2 4 5 2 4]
11:54	silasdavis	,(clojure.set/union '(2 4 5) #{2 4 5})
11:54	clojurebot	(5 4 2 2 4 ...)
11:54	silasdavis	,(clojure.set/union '(2 4 5 6) #{2 4 5})
11:54	clojurebot	(5 4 2 2 4 ...)
11:54	AimHere	It's just conjing the elements of one onto t'other
11:54	silasdavis	,(clojure.set/union '(2 4 5 6) #{2 4 5 7 8})
11:54	clojurebot	#{2 4 5 6 7 ...}
11:55	AimHere	And hoping that the result is still a set
11:55	AimHere	,(clojure.set/union [[:a :b] [:c :d]] {:foo :bar})
11:55	clojurebot	[[:a :b] [:c :d] [:foo :bar]]
11:55	AimHere	,(clojure.set/union {:foo :bar} [[:a :b] [:c :d]] )
11:55	clojurebot	[[:a :b] [:c :d] [:foo :bar]]
11:56	silasdavis	yeah and it's using the count to decide the order
11:56	silasdavis	it makes sense from the implementation, but it's not very nice for a consumer
11:57	AimHere	,(clojure.set/union [:foo :bar] {:a :b, :c :d} )
11:57	clojurebot	[:foo :bar [:a :b] [:c :d]]
11:57	AimHere	,(clojure.set/union [:foo :bar] {:a :b, :c :d :e :f} )
11:57	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword>
11:58	AimHere	I think I'll just use clojure.set/union for set unions and nothing else
11:58	silasdavis	,(#(into #{} %1 %2) [2 3 4 5] [2 3 4])
11:58	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$into>
11:59	seangrov`	dnolen: re: the warnings, I meant it as a warning to anyone with existing code. It's a small change, and not much of a big deal. Not proposing any warnings be emitted from the compiler.
11:59	silasdavis	,(#(into (into #{} %1) %2) [2 3 4 5] [2 3 4])
11:59	clojurebot	#{2 3 4 5}
11:59	silasdavis	would that be such a bad union implementation?
11:59	Chousuke	for vectors? I don't think you can get any better
11:59	Chousuke	unless the vectors are sorted already
12:01	hyPiRion	the easiest one is probably just (defn union [& colls] (reduce into #{} colls))
12:02	AimHere	hyPiRion, The actual implementation doesn't look all that different from that
12:03	AimHere	hyPiRion, except in the case where there are only two collections
12:04	hyPiRion	or one, or zero.
12:05	silasdavis	what would be the best way to propose a change, do they accept pull requests?
12:06	coventry`	http://clojure.org/contributing
12:11	seangrov`	ClojureCup looks like fun http://clojurecup.com/
12:16	dnolen	seangrov`: oh got it, yes, thanks for bringing it up!
12:29	xeqi	ambrosebs: are you making the "normal" core.typed lib contain :aot'd code?
12:29	ambrosebs	xeqi: yes
12:29	xeqi	are there issue with that and changing clojure versions?
12:32	ambrosebs	xeqi: I'm not sure.
12:32	xeqi	for some reason I have an understanding that code :aot'd on 1.5.1 might not work on 1.4, or say 1.6. but I can't find any reference for that
12:32	ambrosebs	Ok, I'm targeting 1.5.1 atm so I haven't tested others.
12:36	clgv	xeqi: thats right there were some problems with changed implementation API. compiling with java 7 and running on java 6 (or earlier) wont work as well
12:38	ambrosebs	good to know.
12:42	dnolen	tbaldridge: we might need to clean up some things in core.async to account for keywords change in ClojureScript?
12:43	tbaldridge	dnolen: I assume identical? no longer works?
12:43	dnolen	tbaldridge: it no longer works, if you want to compare keywords you have to use keyword-identical?
12:43	dnolen	tbaldridge: or just use =
12:44	tbaldridge	dnolen: yeah, it kindof stinks that we'll have to take the performance hit there, but I guess it can't be helped
12:45	dnolen	tbaldridge: I'd expect the hit to be pretty small based on my tests with ArrayMap. From what I tell a much bigger hit from all these superflous fns that showed up after bumping Closure.
12:45	tbaldridge	dnolen: I'm not sure that we will need to change it. the only place I use identical? with keywords is with compile-time constants. I don't think we'd ever get a runtime keyword in those places.
12:46	tbaldridge	dnolen: oh yeah, that we should also take a look at.
12:46	tbaldridge	or should we just wait for a better code generator in the compiler?
12:47	dnolen	tbaldridge: CLJS ANF pass to optimize away these extra fns is on my todo list
12:48	dnolen	tbaldridge: to be clear you just can't use identical? with keyword anymore, doesn't matter if compile time constants because of incremental compilation
12:48	dnolen	tbaldridge: we only generate the constants table under advanced optimizations
12:48	dnolen	tbaldridge: thus the tests fail under simple because of presence of identical? + keywords usage
12:48	dnolen	tbaldridge: pretty sure if we fix those, everything will work again
12:50	silasdavis	Is there a more succint way of writing:
12:50	silasdavis	,(mapcat (fn [[k vs]] (map (fn [v] [k v]) vs)) {:a [1 2 3] :b [4 5 6]})
12:50	clojurebot	([:a 1] [:a 2] [:a 3] [:b 4] [:b 5] ...)
12:50	silasdavis	sort of an associative expansion
12:51	silasdavis	I mean in terms of higher order functions
12:51	ucb	silasdavis: you could try with (fn [[k vs]] (interleave (repeatedly k) vs)) instead of the map
12:52	xeqi	&(for [[k vs] {:a [1 2 3] :b [4 5 6]} v vs] [k v])
12:52	ucb	(mapcat (fn [[k vs]] (interleave (constantly :a) vs) {:a [1 2 3] :b [4 5 6]})
12:52	silasdavis	ucb, yes think I prefer that, thanks
12:52	xeqi	,(for [[k vs] {:a [1 2 3] :b [4 5 6]} v vs] [k v])
12:52	clojurebot	([:a 1] [:a 2] [:a 3] [:b 4] [:b 5] ...)
12:52	ucb	eek, constantly I think
12:52	ucb	,(doc constantly)
12:52	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns a function that takes any number of arguments and returns x."
12:52	ucb	,(doc repeatedly)
12:52	clojurebot	"([f] [n f]); Takes a function of no args, presumably with side effects, and returns an infinite (or length n if supplied) lazy sequence of calls to it"
12:53	ucb	:/
12:53	silasdavis	(repeat k)
12:53	ucb	I always forget which one it is ...
12:53	ucb	,(doc repeat)
12:53	clojurebot	"([x] [n x]); Returns a lazy (infinite!, or length n if supplied) sequence of xs."
12:53	ucb	yeah, that one :)
12:53	tbaldridge	dnolen: yeah, perhaps I'll figure out a better way to do looping then. As in tight loops we'll be executing a ton of identical? checks (one per SSA block).
12:54	tbaldridge	I can always make a singleton object and then do identical? on that.
12:54	silasdavis	xeqi, that's nice thanks
12:59	dnolen	tbaldridge: yes but like I said I did months of perf testing between in master and possible keyword changes before landing - tight loop array scans where we call keyword-identical? at least 7 million times takes still < 95msec
12:59	dnolen	tbaldridge: so I think cost is going to be negligible
13:00	tbaldridge	dnolen: okay, perhaps the perf is different in CLJS then. On the JVM, moving from = to identical? was one of the first things that jumped out at me when I ran the profiler.
13:00	dnolen	tbaldridge: yes = is a bit hit because not fast fail.
13:01	dnolen	tbaldridge: if perf is the most important think keyword-identical? fits the bill
13:01	dnolen	s/think/thing
13:17	silasdavis	inverse to my last request, can anyone do better than:
13:18	silasdavis	,(reduce (fn [acc [k v]] (update-in acc [k] (partial cons v))) {} [[:a 1] [:a 2] [:a 3] [:b 4] [:b 5] [:b 6]])
13:18	clojurebot	{:b (6 5 4), :a (3 2 1)}
13:18	silasdavis	to factor the expansion
13:20	sdegutis	Is there any doc containing the rationale for why technomancy made project.clj not just be a data-structure but actual code? Do that many projects/plugins need to compute values within it?
13:23	dissipate__	sdegutis: he's clearly out of control and must be stopped
13:24	sdegutis	There could be a perfectly legitimate reason.. I'm just wondering if the rationale is documented anywhere.
13:26	mdrogalis	sdegutis: Yeah I always wondered it myself sdegutis
13:26	sdegutis	I think it would be easier for IDEs to parse if it was just a Clojure-map in a file that's implicitly wrapped in (quote).
13:27	sdegutis	Not that this can change now, but I'm thinking for the future.
13:28	xeqi	sdegutis: I've seen uses where computed values are important, but google is failing me
13:28	xeqi	also, lein plugins can alter the project map, so for an IDE to get the real map used, it would have to reimplement the plugin mechanism
13:28	callen	dnolen: is there a document that outlines the "what you should know" semantic differences between Clojure and ClojureScript? And perhaps more relevantly, which of those differences are and aren't likely to change in the future.
13:28	sdegutis	xeqi: I've seen uses where they're used, such as to compute the version from a version.clj file, but that isn't necessary, just (questionably) conveneitn.
13:29	dnolen	callen: the github wiki
13:29	sdegutis	xeqi: Oh, that's sneaky.
13:29	xeqi	or just use the leiningen.core.project api
13:29	callen	dnolen: thanks
13:29	xeqi	sdegutis: or nicely extendable
13:29	sdegutis	xeqi: Oh yeah, I suppose I can use that from an external project. Thanks :)
13:30	danielszmulewicz	Is there a leiningen API? I would like to get a list of locally installed leiningen plugins programmatically.
13:30	sdegutis	xeqi: Implicit things always make me raise an eyebrow. Not that they're not good, I just use extra caution with them.
13:31	xeqi	danielszmulewicz: as in the ones specified by :plugins in the project map?
13:31	danielszmulewicz	Actually, I would like to know those in profiles.clj
13:31	danielszmulewicz	but yes, under the :plugins key
13:35	xeqi	danielszmulewicz: there are some private functions in https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/leiningen-core/src/leiningen/core/project.clj that might be useful. but profile handling is the ugliest part of lein's code base. Maybe hyPiRion or technomancy would have a better idea
13:36	danielszmulewicz	xeqi: right, I'm perusing the docs, thanks.
13:36	xeqi	danielszmulewicz: what would you do with a list of plugins from each profile?
13:37	danielszmulewicz	xeqi: I'm depending on a particular plugin, if it is not found, I want to halt the program
13:38	xeqi	danielszmulewicz: can you add that plugin to your plugins :dependencies to make sure its there?
13:39	danielszmulewicz	xeqi: yes, you see, I'm depending on environ plugin, it needs to be set both in the dependencies, and in the profiles for added functionality
13:39	danielszmulewicz	xeqi: https://github.com/weavejester/environ
13:41	callen	clojure.walk is...really nice.
13:41	danielszmulewicz	xeqi: I wrote a template for global use. That template defines `environ` in the dependencies, so that's good. But I also want users to configure their profiles.clj as per the plugin.
13:42	danielszmulewicz	xeqi: if that makes sense...
13:42	xeqi	I don't understand the last sentence
13:43	xeqi	if you need profiles set up a certain way, why not have the template add them to the project.clj?
13:43	danielszmulewicz	xeqi: right, that would work too. I'm stoopid.
13:44	callen	every time I use :refer :all I end up regretting it.
13:45	danielszmulewicz	xeqi: thanks. That's the best solution.
13:45	xeqi	danielszmulewicz: np
13:55	dnolen	callen: I don't really forsee any other big changes that aren't specifically related to ClojureScript in ClojureScript. These latest round of changes are something we've been pondering for more than a year
13:55	znusgy	hello -- I'm using map-key in seesaw and it works until I change focus to another window and back again (https://gist.github.com/anonymous/6498817) -- any idea why?
13:56	zphds	am goofing around with clojure.async. Is a 'go' block without '!<', '>!', 'alts!' as same as a 'thread' block?
13:56	zphds	since both of them return a channel
13:56	callen	dnolen: cool. Thanks for all your work :)
14:06	danielszmulewicz	I published a new template on clojars which is a fleshed out example of Stuart Sierra's reloaded workflow. A blog post will be published in the coming days, but you can already see/test it with: `lein new reloaded2 my-app`. I would love to have confirmation that `lein with-profile production run` successfully starts a server on port 8000. Thanks.
14:09	muhoo	OT, but is there a simple commandline linux tool that'll decode ics or exchange vcalendar into readable human text?
14:11	callen	muhoo: http://tewok.com/software/vcal-2.2
14:15	glosoli	ah this damn ac-nrepl was driving me nuts believing that it was Emacs who caused various crashes
14:15	danielszmulewicz	I remember reading an announcement of a new project that draws a chart of namespaces in svg. Alas, I can't remember the name. Anyone?
14:16	danielszmulewicz	glosoli: still no company equivalent?
14:16	glosoli	danielszmulewicz: what's no company equivalent emm
14:16	danielszmulewicz	glosoli: company is the rival of autocomplete
14:17	danielszmulewicz	http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CompanyMode
14:17	danielszmulewicz	glosoli: http://company-mode.github.io/
14:17	Raynes	glosoli: I gave up on ac-nrepl after many long days of blood sweat and tears.
14:17	glosoli	danielszmulewicz: wow thanks, gonna check this out
14:17	glosoli	Raynes: Yeah, but for me it was different I sincerely believed it was Emacs fault lool
14:19	danielszmulewicz	glosoli: I think it was Steve Purcell who said there was no reason that autocomplete in the nrepl should depend on ac.
14:19	justin_smith	oddly, I recently switched to using ac and ac-nrepl, and have yet to see an issue
14:19	callen	technomancy: can I get you to push limit-break to clojars?
14:20	glosoli	danielszmulewicz: correct me if I am wrong, Company Mode is a replacement for Ac yes ?
14:20	borkdude	I have trouble finding an element with clj-webdriver containing a   "//tr[td[normalize-space()='€${nbsp}1,00']]" doesn't seem to do it. any advice?
14:21	danielszmulewicz	glosoli: yes, and it's pretty fine one, too. Although I stopped bothering with autocomplete modes.
14:21	glosoli	danielszmulewicz; thanks for suggetions!:) gonna try it now
14:22	danielszmulewicz	glosoli: just remember it won't work in the nrepl
14:22	danielszmulewicz	glosoli: and there's no clojure I believe
14:22	glosoli	danielszmulewicz: hmm damn :D
14:23	danielszmulewicz	glosoli: Ah, I found it: https://github.com/clojure-emacs/ac-nrepl/issues/30
14:24	danielszmulewicz	glosoli: but I think company-mode can use ac as a back-end
14:26	ystael	danielszmulewicz: regarding the svg namespace graph, you may be thinking of itmmc/nephila ?
14:26	ystael	*timmc
14:27	danielszmulewicz	ystael: thanks! that's the one! Spot on!
14:28	muhoo	yay, emacs, M-x icalendar-import-file :-)
14:28	glosoli	danielszmulewicz: I don't seem to get the concept of company hmm it's supposed to be similar to ac-nrepl if it had clojure backend or what ?
14:28	callen	muhoo: you didn't try the link I sent? :(
14:29	danielszmulewicz	glosoli: it's supposed to be like ac (autocomplete), not ac-nrepl
14:29	glosoli	danielszmulewicz:Not that I am ware of, but what's so wrong with ac (autocomplete0?
14:29	danielszmulewicz	glosoli: it's a global autocompletion framework.
14:30	danielszmulewicz	glosoli: I never said anything was wrong with it.
14:30	glosoli	danielszmulewicz: aa I might be assuming too much most of the times, sorry :)
14:30	danielszmulewicz	glosoli: :-)
14:30	TimMc	danielszmulewicz: It doesn't do SVG yet, but maybe someone will send me that pull request. (Probably an easy enhancement.)
14:31	danielszmulewicz	TimMc: Oh, I've mixed it up (I must have though about liberator's svg tracing output). Never mind, png is mighty fine too :-)
14:32	dissipate__	i have a book reading plan: clojure programming -> on lisp -> let over lambda -> learn you a haskell. anyone have any other recommendations?
14:32	danielszmulewicz	dissipate_: start with "on lisp"
14:32	danielszmulewicz	dissipate_: it's the most important one of the three (not talking about haskell)
14:32	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: i thought that was an intermediate/advanced book?
14:33	callen	dissipate__: do not start with on lisp.
14:33	dissipate__	hehe
14:33	callen	dissipate__: start with clojure programming.
14:33	callen	dissipate__: I would consider doing Joy of Clojure after Clojure Programming, were I you.
14:33	amalloy	&(shuffle '(CP OL LoL LYAH))
14:33	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: no, "on lisp" is about the philosophy of lisp, it's very gradual and beginner's friendly
14:33	dissipate__	callen: so my plan is good?
14:33	amalloy	Raynes: where is lazybot?
14:33	callen	dissipate__: yes, but I'd add JoC. It's exceptional.
14:33	callen	amalloy: being lazy, apparently.
14:34	danielszmulewicz	+1 for the joy of clojure
14:34	callen	amalloy: you'll get your thunks later.
14:34	dissipate__	callen: isn't JoC weak on macros?
14:34	Raynes	amalloy: MIA. I'll put out a BOLO for him.
14:34	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: yes it is
14:34	danielszmulewicz	for macros read "on lisp"
14:34	callen	dissipate__: JoC is so you don't write code other people hate and learn Clojure idioms and philosophies. macros are included, but they're just one tool in the toolbox.
14:35	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: i'll get to 'on lisp'
14:35	callen	dissipate__: you really need to cool your fucking jets on the macros. They're not the end-all be-all.
14:35	ystael	<- read JoC, writes code other people hate anyway
14:35	mtp	macros are a good tool
14:35	Raynes	lols
14:35	mtp	they are not for everything
14:35	callen	I love macros, but I don't eagerly seek excuses to use them either.
14:35	dissipate__	ok, so it is: clojure programming -> joy of clojure -> on lisp -> let over lambda -> learn you a haskell
14:35	callen	dissipate__: excellent.
14:35	mtp	i would move On Lisp to the end
14:36	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: "on lisp" will teach you everything important about lisp, then read "joy of clojure" which is clojure specific but also very philosophical
14:36	Raynes	Ugh, no.
14:36	callen	danielszmulewicz: nope.
14:36	mtp	CljPr -> LoL -> Joy -> LYAH -> On Lisp
14:36	mtp	but that's just me. :)
14:36	callen	mtp: LoL needs to be later and preferably after On Lisp.
14:36	dissipate__	mtp: isn't let over lambda an advanced text?
14:36	callen	dissipate__: quite.
14:36	Raynes	dissipate__: Just read Programming Clojure or JoC or both. Don't read On Lisp first, please. There is no reason to read a book with examples in a different Lisp when there are excellent books already available for Clojure specifically.
14:36	mtp	really?
14:36	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: yes, very hardcore
14:37	callen	LoL is really just a more advanced On Lisp IMHO
14:37	mtp	I only flipped through LoL; it seemed rather practical and down-to-earth to me
14:37	mtp	my head is kind of on upside-down, though :)
14:37	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: cool. i'm loading these up on my kindle paper white.
14:37	danielszmulewicz	Clojure is built on the shoulders of a giant, and that giant is Lisp
14:38	callen	danielszmulewicz: what part of On Lisp did you like best?
14:38	Raynes	More importantly, why isn't there a homebrew formula for these silly opinions?
14:38	danielszmulewicz	callen: everything I should say
14:38	callen	you can't learn Clojure without learning Lisp in the process, so it's best to just learn Clojure so you don't spend your first year(s) of Clojure writing CL'ish Clojure (like I did)
14:38	danielszmulewicz	Raynes: ah, you still feel hurt
14:38	callen	danielszmulewicz: really? lets get specific. What was your favorite part?
14:39	callen	I know what mine was. What's yours?
14:39	danielszmulewicz	I sense a vendetta here
14:39	ystael	is there actually useful information in Let Over Lambda? i was put off early on by the incredibly smug tone and never went back to it
14:39	Raynes	I'm less hurt as I am surprised that you're giving such bad advice to people at the moment.
14:39	callen	ystael: you're not missing much unless you're a CL fascist like me.
14:39	Raynes	If you're learning Clojure, read a Clojure book. Don't read a book on macros for another Lisp. Read that later when you need to learn more.
14:39	danielszmulewicz	Just voicing my opinion, and respecting other's too
14:39	callen	OL and LoL are best for firming up Lispy/macro patterns after you've been writing Clojure for awhile.
14:40	danielszmulewicz	it's all good
14:40	dissipate__	Raynes: unfortunately, AFAIK, there are no in depth macro books in clojure :(
14:40	Raynes	Because you don't need them.
14:40	callen	that's doing a disservice to JoC. I think it covers them sufficiently.
14:40	dissipate__	Raynes: why not?
14:40	callen	you seriously should not be diving into heavy-duty macro-ology. Clojure is powerful enough to have more than one tool in the box.
14:40	Raynes	Because you don't.
14:40	Raynes	You just simply do not use macros that often, and usually if they're so complex you need a whole book to be written on the topic, you're screwing something up somewhere very badly.
14:41	dissipate__	Raynes: so clojure programming + joy of clojure is enough?
14:41	danielszmulewicz	Agreed, you don't jump in writing macros
14:41	Raynes	Yes. And then On Lisp will still be there after you've learned Clojure.
14:41	Raynes	It has lots of good stuff to teach, but it's not somewhere you start.
14:41	callen	dissipate__: I'd say so. You should go off and just use Clojure for awhile after reading CP and JoC. You can decide later if you have something else you want to learn.
14:42	dissipate__	Raynes: hmm, strange. everyone keeps saying one of the main features of lisp/clojure is macros. :P
14:42	kaw	Hm, I'm trying out core.typed, should I be able to typecheck (defn f [xs] (map str xs)) as [(NonEmptySeqable Number) -> (NonEmptySeqable String)]?
14:42	Raynes	It's a selling point. Macros allow you to do amazing things, dissipate__.
14:42	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: you can peruse them all and develop a sense of what's best for you
14:43	Raynes	It's just that you don't need to do that level of metaprogramming that often, and when you do you usually don't need super complex stuff to do what you want.
14:43	callen	dissipate__: macros make things possible that aren't in other languages in the form of libraries, but you only need to write core.async once.
14:43	Raynes	Macros are to be avoided unless they are expressly needed.
14:43	kaw	I first tried it as just Seqable, but then I'm not allowed to pass it to reduce, so I think I need it to understand that map preserves nonemptiness
14:43	callen	you should make a concerted effort to exhaust other possibilities before resorting to them.
14:43	Raynes	And usually they're just a colorful layer on top of a function-based API.
14:43	dissipate__	Raynes: that's good to know. so these advanced texts on macros are mostly for theoretical exploration?
14:44	callen	dissipate__: partly. you need to understand that CL users used macros a lot because they didn't have much else to work with.
14:44	Raynes	danielszmulewicz: There is no vendetta here. I'm not dismissing your opinion, I'm worried that it is a damaging opinion for this new Clojure developer. Please take no personal offense.
14:44	callen	dissipate__: they had to fashion their own bizarre universes from macros and banging things together in order to get things done.
14:44	callen	we have better tools now
14:44	ztellman	2001: A Clojure Odyssey
14:44	dissipate__	callen: so in clojure functions are used a lot more?
14:45	Raynes	Tons tons tons more.
14:45	Raynes	Functions in Clojure are the bee's knees, its legs, and potentially its arms.
14:45	dissipate__	that's good since they are easier to compose
14:45	Raynes	</eminem quote>
14:45	callen	dissipate__: much.
14:46	danielszmulewicz	Raynes: No problem, it is the homebrew reference here that made me think so, and the youtube video that you sent me showing the feeling of entitlement you display regarding the community. I appreciate that, too, mind you, but there is a diversity of opinion that needs to be maintained and respected.
14:46	dissipate__	BTW, has anyone gained any insights into clojure/lisp by learning haskell?
14:47	nDuff	dissipate_: Haskell is worth learning for insight into pure functional programming -- which is certainly relevant in Clojure.
14:47	callen	dissipate__: some, but I wouldn't worry about it for now.
14:47	Raynes	danielszmulewicz: Entitlement?
14:47	Raynes	Do elaborate.
14:47	callen	I really want to see the video.
14:47	callen	my morning needs this.
14:48	Raynes	I do recall sending him a video, but I don't know what it is and certainly can't imagine how it could show 'entitlement'
14:48	callen	well if either of you can dredge up a link, I'd be appreciative.
14:48	dissipate__	callen: yeah, i'm definitely not worrying about haskell for quite awhile. the haskell community seems steadfastly committed to native binary executables.
14:48	danielszmulewicz	Raynes: Well, that's how I interpreted the video, but I'll be glad to hear your intention…
14:49	dissipate__	callen: when i even inquired about developing an interpreter or a JVM compiler, they snapped at me in #haskell.
14:49	callen	lol.
14:49	callen	dissipate__: they do that a lot.
14:50	callen	dissipate__: if you want to make them really mad, write trivial applications in terms of unsafePerformIO
14:50	dissipate__	i pointed out that a huge chunk of industry has moved away from native binary executables. i guess they don't care.
14:50	callen	and do all your control flow in Cont
14:50	danielszmulewicz	Raynes: it was a family guy video, you don't remember?
14:50	Raynes	Oh wait!
14:50	callen	dissipate__: they don't. I wouldn't mind native binaries sometimes, but yeah, they're kinda defensive.
14:50	Raynes	danielszmulewicz: Are you sure it was a family guy video and not a Me Myself and Irene video of Jim Carrey taking a dump on someone's lawn?
14:50	technomancy	to me haskell and ocaml are interesting because they produce native binaries
14:51	dissipate__	callen: no web development shop i know of is doing native binaries.
14:51	tbaldridge	(inc technomancy)
14:51	ztellman	Raynes: what on earth is going on in this conversation
14:51	lazybot	⇒ 74
14:51	glosoli	heh I actually loved how some guy in haskell room spent hour convincing me to use Emacs, it all ended up very well lol
14:51	kaw	Hmm, anyone have any idea about my question about core.typed? I'm guessing there's probably some way to get (reduce g (map f xs)) to typecheck?
14:51	danielszmulewicz	Raynes: Same scenario, different video
14:52	callen	ztellman: I'm a little confused but I know the origins of this one, it's pretty great.
14:52	callen	trying really hard not to break out into rasping, hacking laughter at the office right now.
14:52	coventry`	Welcome back, lazybot.
14:52	Raynes	danielszmulewicz: Regarding the Homebrew formula, callen and I were simply taken by surprise that even after numerous core Clojurescript developers kept telling you that a cljs formula was a bad idea you kept at it for no particular reason other than to seemingly just get a strange victory. You can see how that feels a little like having someone do bad things to your lawn, right?
14:52	dissipate__	technomancy: but industry has moved firmly away from native binaries. i'm no fan of industry but there are advantages to virtual machines and interpreters. at least have the option of using one of those.
14:53	technomancy	dissipate__: who cares what "the industry" is doing?
14:53	technomancy	if you want ML on a VM, you use F#
14:53	danielszmulewicz	Raynes: That's why I'm saying feeling of entitlement, you equate clojure community with your private lawn
14:53	dissipate__	technomancy: apparently we do, that's why we aren't using common lisp, and compiling to the JVM, right?
14:53	Raynes	danielszmulewicz: I said 'our', not 'my'.
14:54	Raynes	Feel free to change it to 'theirs'. I don't use cljs.
14:54	danielszmulewicz	Raynes: Our is mine too
14:54	technomancy	dissipate__: it's good for somethings and bad for some things
14:54	technomancy	I'm glad there are options
14:54	rhg135	i'm wondering how equality on strings work being java objects
14:54	technomancy	if every good language targetted the JVM it would be horrible
14:54	dissipate__	technomancy: would haskell be ruined if there was a good interpreter written for it that was ported to a number of architectures?
14:55	hyPiRion	rhg135: first you check if they have the same pointer, then length, then char-by-char. (I would guess)
14:55	technomancy	I don't know anything about haskell specifically
14:55	rhg135	so it's inefficient?
14:55	Raynes	There is no entitlement here danielszmulewicz. That's exactly why we requested core devs comment on it instead of pretending we were the end all and be all of opinions on the matter. You're singling me out for no particular reason. When people started disagreeing with you, that became their lawn. You continued and… now the… lawn… We should stop with the lawn metaphors.
14:55	dissipate__	shrug, maybe the native binary thing bugs more more than it should
14:56	hyPiRion	How would it be more efficient?
14:56	Raynes	Anyways, we've been clogging up this channel with nonsensical stuff that is said and done for a bit too long already.
14:56	Ember-	you can download haskell compiler for multiple platforms, I fail to see the problem here
14:56	muhoo	alright, i'm puzzled by a mundane matter: why at-at jobs just disappear from the schedule queue even though they are still running,and blocking, AFAICT
14:56	callen	danielszmulewicz: you had active ClojureScript devs saying it was a bad idea in the thread. Have you even so much as looked at the source to the compiler?
14:56	callen	muhoo: need a little more context.
14:56	Ember-	VM is great to have but it is not an ultimate solution which suits into every situation
14:56	muhoo	zombie functions that can't be killed
14:56	coventry`	muhoo: Have you seen this? http://code.nomad-labs.com/2011/12/09/mother-fk-the-scheduledexecutorservice/
14:56	callen	muhoo: at-at?
14:56	dissipate__	Ember-: never said it was. i'm just saying, have it as an option.
14:56	muhoo	coventry`: yeah, i posted it here last night :-/
14:57	dbe	Is 'vec' more efficient then 'apply vector'? Why does 'vec' exist, is it just a shortcut?
14:57	Raynes	ztellman: It's Monday, man.
14:57	Ember-	dissipate__: different language then, you usually design your language based on a fact if you're going to run it on top of a VM or not
14:57	muhoo	at-at does use that service, and i am wrapping all my functions, that's not the problem
14:57	dissipate__	Ember-: for instance, you can compile python scripts to native binaries.
14:57	ztellman	Raynes: lawn metaphor Monday
14:57	Raynes	Yes.
14:57	callen	,(vector "abc")
14:57	clojurebot	["abc"]
14:57	callen	,(vec "abc")
14:57	clojurebot	[\a \b \c]
14:57	Ember-	sure, that doesn't make em fast (python built as binaries that is)
14:57	Ember-	and you lose the portability
14:57	tbaldridge	dissipate__: not exactly...it's more like bundling them with the interpreter vm
14:58	dbe	callen, Huh. Interesting.
14:58	Ember-	and yes, I was thinking that too
14:58	muhoo	the problem is that i've got a long-running function, i know it blocks forever, it's gotten itself into a weird lop state, and it's not showing up in the pool at all
14:58	Ember-	that python binaries have just the vm with em
14:58	dbe	,(apply vector "abc")
14:58	clojurebot	[\a \b \c]
14:58	callen	muhoo: what pool? is this a library?
14:58	Raynes	callen: I think he is talking about samaaron's at-at.
14:58	dissipate__	Ember-: that's true. i realize there is a difference compiling for native vs. VM. native executables just feels old to me i guess. i haven't done native executables for years.
14:58	muhoo	i am indeed
14:59	Raynes	https://github.com/overtone/at-at
14:59	Raynes	callen: ^
14:59	Ember-	dissipate__: neither have I but that doesn't mean I would never do those
14:59	muhoo	and sam does not appear to be about at this hour of the day/night/etc
14:59	Ember-	there is very much place for native apps
14:59	Ember-	and it would be horrible to make all those ppl making native apps to just use c or c++
14:59	Ember-	:)
14:59	dissipate__	Ember-: yep, systems programming. but haskell is not good for that either.
14:59	mattmoss	c++ ftw yah woot
15:00	mattmoss	don't deny haterz
15:00	mattmoss	lolz
15:00	rhg135	ohnoez
15:00	hyPiRion	$seen lazybot
15:00	lazybot	lazybot was last seen joining on #eleventhbit 24 minutes and 39 seconds ago.
15:00	Ember-	I for one am typing this message in iterm which has a ssh connection to my server running irssi
15:00	hyPiRion	Ohai, it's back
15:00	muhoo	oh wait, maybe he sends them off to a different thread and doesn't hold on to the return vals. or maybe scheduledwhateverthign does
15:00	Ember-	all native apps
15:00	Raynes	hyPiRion: You just found a bug.
15:00	Ember-	I see no point in doing that stuff with vm based software
15:00	Raynes	hyPiRion: The channel is ##eleventhbit, not #eleventhbit.
15:00	Ember-	maybe irssi, but well... Not really
15:01	Ember-	VM has an overhead always, you don't create small utility apps with it
15:01	hyPiRion	Raynes: wehey, everyday usage
15:01	ToxicFrog	Ember-: I do!
15:01	rhg135	i agree
15:01	Ember-	in my opinion: VM based languages for "big" apps, native for performance critical or small apps
15:01	ToxicFrog	But they talk to the remote systems, so the ~5 seconds to start up the JVM is inconsequential compared to the time it takes to make 20+ HTTP round trips.
15:01	rhg135	the jvm is way too slow to start for scripts et al
15:01	dissipate__	Ember-: that's true. everything has tradeoffs.
15:02	danielszmulewicz	Raynes: Oh, here's the link you've sent me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGOzOfMMuYQ
15:02	ToxicFrog	Ember-: also, not all VMs are as slow to start up as the JVM. Try any Lua implementation, for starters.
15:02	Raynes	Ah!
15:02	dissipate__	rhg135: yep. that eliminates clojure from being used as a scripting language. but there is Racket.
15:02	Ember-	yes, and dart vm starts in under 200 ms
15:02	muhoo	hmm well in this case the error may have been caused by catching without rethrowing something. but still.
15:02	rhg135	ik
15:02	Raynes	danielszmulewicz: The video is pretty funny though, right?
15:02	Raynes	:)
15:02	coventry`	Is it possible to infer from the organization of clojure/test/clojure/test_clojure/ which test files pertain to core.clj?
15:02	rhg135	the jvm is awesome tho
15:02	Ember-	there's the memory penalty too with VMs
15:02	hyPiRion	well, the clojure jvm implementation is at least a bad fit for scripting
15:02	danielszmulewicz	Raynes: Yes, but showing clear signs of entitlement imho
15:03	Raynes	danielszmulewicz: lol, okay man.
15:03	Ember-	small long running apps each having their separate VM is not such a good idea
15:03	hyPiRion	Clojure itself may be a better fit if some native implementation existed
15:03	danielszmulewicz	Raynes: cool
15:03	Ember-	even if memory is cheap these days
15:03	Ember-	but anyway, I'm not bashing VMs, not at all
15:03	rhg135	llvm clojure needs to be a thing
15:03	Ember-	like I said, I do 95% of my coding with VM based languages such as Clojure or Java
15:04	Ember-	but I do recognize the need for native apps beyond system level programming and imho saying that they are irrelevant today is just being ignorant
15:04	Ember-	no offence
15:05	rhg135	mhm
15:05	tbaldridge	rhg135: I've done a ton of work on that subject, the more I work on it, I'm less convinced that it's a good idea
15:05	rhg135	how so?
15:06	ToxicFrog	Ember-: time -v cat /dev/null: 2.5MB resident, 0s. echo 'os.exit(0)' \| time -v luajit: 3MB resident, 0s. echo '(System/exit 0)' \| time -v lein repl: 350MB resident, 7s.
15:06	ToxicFrog	Some VMs are entirely suitable for small apps.
15:06	rhg135	python runs ok
15:06	tbaldridge	rhg135: a lot of clojure assumes a highly optimized compiler (JIT) and a super fast GC. HotSpot will regularly recompile portions of your code as it runs. Doing that with LLVM is super hard. Also, LLVM's GC support is pretty poor.
15:07	rhg135	true
15:07	mtp	i read 'highly opinionated' compiler :)
15:07	rhg135	maybe that's why c++ sucks so much
15:07	rhg135	well paertly
15:08	coventry`	I've cloned core.clj into a separate namespace, and I want to run the clojure test suite using it. Is there a way to bind clojure/core in the namespace infrastructure to my new namespace? If not, I can just eval the tests in the context of the new ns, but a safe way of doing that kind of rebinding would be pretty cool.
15:08	ToxicFrog	I mean, yes, if you're operating at google scale things are different, a 2% increase in resource usage can mean you mean dozens or hundreds of additional machines - but for most things, optimizing for shorter development time and fewer bugs will be better for both you and for the user than optimizing away a few tens of milliseconds of startup time or a few megabytes of memory usage.
15:09	rhg135	meh
15:09	rhg135	the jvm is working great
15:09	hyPiRion	ToxicFrog: in addition, a faster development cycle means that you can optimize the code "earlier on"
15:09	rhg135	how about clojurescript
15:10	hyPiRion	consequently, it's a bit hard to compare these things. Like apples and oranges.
15:10	rhg135	v8 is getting fast
15:10	tbaldridge	rhg135: yep, I've seen people do scripting with clojurescript. Good idea imo.
15:10	rhg135	yea
15:10	dnolen	rhg135: CLJS is slowly moving towards bootstrapping, will be interesting to see what people do when we get there.
15:10	rhg135	js isn't just for web imo
15:10	ToxicFrog	(all that said, I hate hate HATE the long startup times of anything written in clj)
15:11	rhg135	ToxicFrog, cljs
15:12	ToxicFrog	rhg135: how easy is that to deploy outside the browser?
15:12	rhg135	in some respects i think nodejs and v8 could eclipse some reasons we use the jvm
15:12	hiredman	you know, you can write shebang style scripts in clojure, rich added support for #! as a "comment" just for that purpose
15:13	ToxicFrog	To end users without a clojure install, I mean
15:13	tbaldridge	hiredman: doesn't really get around the startup times though
15:13	ToxicFrog	With clj I can 'lein uberjar' and get something anyone with a JVM can use
15:13	hiredman	tbaldridge: sure
15:14	hiredman	but when me script is something cron runs at midnight, what do I care?
15:14	mdrogalis	hiredman: Wait, can you elaborate?
15:14	rhg135	idk, i use bash a lot
15:14	mdrogalis	I wasn't aware #! had any meaning, or seen it anywhere.
15:14	mdrogalis	(In context of clj)
15:14	mikerod	,(reify java.util.List (isEmpty [_] true))
15:14	clojurebot	#<AbstractMethodError java.lang.AbstractMethodError: sandbox$eval29$reify__30.iterator()Ljava/util/Iterator;>
15:15	mikerod	(reify java.util.Collection (isEmpty [_] true))
15:15	rhg135	and since i do like a zillion things on this box it does matter
15:15	mikerod	,(reify java.util.Collection (isEmpty [_] true))
15:15	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval59$reify__60 sandbox$eval59$reify__60@1f2507f>
15:15	noonian	I use lein exec so I can run clojure scripts as normal executable scripts, still has the long startup but I don't care that much
15:15	mikerod	Hmm, why does (reify java.util.List (isEmpty [_] true)), throw the AbstractMethodError?
15:15	supersym	mdrogalis: I sure haven't seen it anywhere either
15:15	hiredman	mdrogalis: you know what a shebang line is?
15:16	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/hiredman/3422228 is valid clojure and valid shell
15:16	mdrogalis	hiredman: Si
15:16	supersym	oh nice
15:16	mdrogalis	Huh, no kidding. I never knew.
15:16	mdrogalis	Thanks for the bit of knowledge.
15:17	hiredman	yeah, well, no one seems to use it
15:20	dissipate__	anyone know when the next edition of the 'joy of clojure' is coming out?
15:20	rhg135	not soon enough lol
15:21	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: you can grab it with a 45% off coupon now
15:21	tbaldridge	all that being said, I really want OCaml on the JVM with a s-expr syntax
15:21	technomancy	tbaldridge: have you tried Yeti?
15:21	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: on which site? safari books?
15:21	technomancy	just curious
15:21	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: manning
15:22	tbaldridge	technomancy: no, but I've done stuff with F# I assume they are similar.
15:22	technomancy	yeah, F# is probably more polished
15:22	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: what's the coupon?
15:22	callen	yeah but who wants to miss out on the opportunity to use the Abominable Snowman language?
15:23	danielszmulewicz	dissipate: http://weblogs.java.net/blog/manningpubs/archive/2013/09/03/clojure-changes-way-you-think-joy-clojure-2e-45
15:23	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: mlfogus2jn is the coupon
15:23	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: cool, thanks!
15:23	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: welcome
15:23	nDuff	hiredman: the $0 should be quoted -- otherwise it won't work correctly when run from a directory with whitespace or glob expressions in its name.
15:24	muhoo	this is fucked. at-at is probably not what i want, after spending a day integrating it.
15:24	bbloom	tbaldridge: what is it about ocaml you want precisely?
15:24	danielszmulewicz	muhoo: quartzite?
15:24	patchwork	muhoo: What do you need to do?
15:25	tbaldridge	bbloom: the type system...and eff's handlers, but that's not Ocaml I know.
15:25	tbaldridge	bbloom: I'm a odd sort of guy that couldn't give a crap about types when it comes to "correctness", but there are times I want to write an entire library with types for performance alone.
15:25	muhoo	neither lamina
15:26	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: strange, the second edition is flagged as 'early access' with 'pre-order' http://www.manning.com/fogus2/
15:26	ztellman	muhoo: what are you trying to do?
15:26	bbloom	tbaldridge: yeah, i hear ya
15:26	glosoli	dissipate__: it is
15:26	bbloom	tbaldridge: have i managed to sell you on the handlers idea? :-) it's good stuff right?!
15:26	muhoo	ztelllman, patchwork: a simple work queue, serializing access to a network connection, and allowing me to send jobs from one job without getting into stack overflow
15:27	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: yes, it's not out yet, you're entering the meap program, so you can read it electronically, you'll get it shipped in December
15:27	muhoo	and allowing me to STOP the thing if it gets out of hand too
15:27	tbaldridge	bbloom: oh yeah, I'm sold. Not sure that it's possible in a dynamic language though. At least not as nicely as its done in eff
15:27	glosoli	dissipate_: I have it :) ItMost of the chapters are finished, CLJS is not :) moreover, a lot of reviewing is required to be done
15:27	ztellman	muhoo: is there a timing component?
15:27	ztellman	why at-at?
15:27	bbloom	tbaldridge: it is definitely possible. i have it working in an interpreter
15:27	glosoli	dissipate_: Other than that, it's awesome book I am reading through atm :)
15:27	bbloom	tbaldridge: it's just slow as hell b/c it manually maintains it's own stack frames
15:27	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: ah, i see. i'll pick it up in december then. i'm busy with 'clojure programming' anyways.
15:27	muhoo	ztellman: yes, i need to insert a delay between each network request
15:28	ztellman	muhoo: use a simple queue, and a consumer that sleeps?
15:28	dissipate__	glosoli: are you going to wow us all with your idiomatic clojure? :P
15:28	bbloom	tbaldridge: you'd need to completely defunctionalize in order to determine whether or not you need to capture multi-shot continuations, or if simple long jumps are enough, etc
15:28	ztellman	it has to be an unbounded queue, if jobs are enqueueing sub-jobs
15:28	glosoli	dissipate_: I am just beginner :) I couldn't wow anyone
15:28	muhoo	ztellman: i had that. i was using lamina/enqueue and channels.
15:28	dissipate__	glosoli: have you gone through 'clojure programming' yet?
15:29	muhoo	the problem was massive stack overflows when a task i popped off of the channel then pushed a new function onto the channel
15:29	bbloom	tbaldridge: i'm not convinced that types are the best path to that sort of optimization tho. i'm much more interested in abstract interpretation for that goal, since that's what you need to do to optimize effects anyway
15:29	glosoli	dissipate_: Like half of it, I did not like it :) No offense to anyone
15:29	muhoo	my general async/concurrency chops are weak though. i'm sure i'm doing something wrong
15:29	dissipate__	glosoli: how about 'clojure in action'?
15:29	ztellman	muhoo: right, that's because in lamina the enqueue and receive can happen on the same thread
15:29	glosoli	dissipate_: Never tried that one
15:30	ztellman	so instead have a separate thread on a normal java queue
15:30	tbaldridge	bbloom: yeah, I haven't dug into it that deep yet.
15:30	ztellman	a separate thread consuming from a queue, that is
15:30	glosoli	dissipate_: I am sure I will finish Clojure Programming at some point :) Might be bad mood at that time that complicated my feelings for that book
15:30	muhoo	ztellman: i had that. just a consumer thread. but there was some problem with it, i don't recall. i should go back and try that.
15:30	dissipate__	i have clojure programming. i'm getting joy of clojure and clojure in action.
15:31	ztellman	muhoo: if you're doing blocking reads, you should be safe
15:31	muhoo	ztellman: safe from what, specifically?
15:31	dissipate__	glosoli: which part did you stop reading?
15:31	ztellman	muhoo: recursion from enqueueing sub-tasks
15:32	ztellman	so @(read-channel ch) is fine, (run-pipeline (read-channel ch) …) may cause grief
15:32	glosoli	dissipate_: I would need to check it was something after running graphics mazze or something in repl, I couldn't recall now, it was like couple weeks ago
15:32	ztellman	gotta run, let me know if that helps
15:33	dissipate__	glosoli: have you done any haskell?
15:34	glosoli	dissipate_: I have have gave some thoughts on Learn You Haskell, read couple pages, seemed interesting enough, will continue to read more in weekend I guess
15:34	muhoo	ztellman: right
15:34	glosoli	dissipate_: still, it's more like out of interest, not that I have any actual use for it
15:34	muhoo	ztellman: thanks. i haven't been using pipelines.
15:34	dissipate__	glosoli: same here. i do want to learn haskell as well though since it is supposed to be the most amazing FP language.
15:35	nDuff	dissipate_: personally, I'm not a big fan of Clojure in Action.
15:35	technomancy	nDuff: same
15:35	dissipate__	nDuff: what's your beef with it?
15:35	muhoo	ztellman: ah, i see what i may have been doing wrong. i was using receive-all instead of looping @(read-channel ch) in a thread
15:36	muhoo	ztellman: i.e. i had (future (lamina/receive-all ch #'pop-req))
15:36	glosoli	dissipate_: I do barely care in statements such as " most something" , they are usually overrated
15:36	muhoo	ztellman: should that work? or was that a dumb thing to do?
15:37	nDuff	dissipate_: lots of focus on using specific libraries for specific practical purposes, but isn't particularly portable/useful knowledge. The O'Reilly book and JoC are both much better uses of time.
15:37	technomancy	"The Joy of Connecting to MySQL Databases" as per fogus
15:37	technomancy	(he wasn't talking about that book, but it's a great name)
15:38	dissipate__	nDuff: that's the point of the book though. to get you going with common industry based tasks like writing a web app.
15:38	nDuff	dissipate_: ...if you can't do that already with the tools given in JoC and Clojure Programming, they've failed you.
15:38	dissipate__	glosoli: haskell is based on deep mathematical theories. we should stand in awe of it. :P
15:39	technomancy	I read the sample chapter on multimethods and I was more confused at the end of it than before I started
15:39	glosoli	dissipate_: And yet there is future to disapprove stuff all the time heh
15:39	technomancy	that was an early draft though; final edition might have been better
15:39	nDuff	dissipate_: moreover, any book that glosses over "how to use a specific bunch of libraries" gets outdated as soon as those libraries do.
15:39	dissipate__	nDuff: true. but books based on a certain version of the language like 'clojure programming' can get outdated as well
15:39	technomancy	nDuff: also the choice of libraries looked a bit like "here's a bunch of stuff the author wrote"
15:40	silasdavis	is there a map values so you can do (map-values update map) rather than (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (update v)]) map))
15:40	silasdavis	?
15:40	nDuff	dissipate_: shrug. Anyhow -- I read it, and considered my time spent doing so wasted. YMMV.
15:40	silasdavis	or something better than the last monstrosity
15:41	dissipate__	nDuff: yeah, i'm much more interested in clojure programming and joy of clojure for sure.
15:41	technomancy	silasdavis: that's commonly considered a strange omission from clojure.core
15:41	Bronsa	silasdavis: you can either use reduce-kv or zipmap
15:41	timsg	anyone know of good libraries for extending destructuring? the core macro's kind of gnarly
15:42	timsg	well, function, strictly speaking
15:42	dissipate__	nDuff: should we just be happy that people are bothering to write about clojure in any event?
15:42	nDuff	dissipate_: sure, but that's not to say that all things that are written are worth reading.
15:43	Bronsa	silasdavis: (zipmap (keys the-map) (map update (vals the-map))) or (reduce-kv (fn [m [k v]] (assoc m k (update v)) {} the-map))
15:43	devn	i wrote some macros like that awhile ago, what are you interested in doing in particular that you cant do now?
15:47	mdrogalis	technomancy: There was a good question posed earlier. Why a macro in the Lein project file, and not a pure data structure?
15:47	upwardindex	In the pedestal tutorial app, I created a :dec transform in addition to the :inc transform on my-counter. Later the tutorial binds the inc button to all transforms of my-counter. Is it possible to bind to only one tranform?
15:48	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: there's an upcoming title focusing on web development: http://pragprog.com/book/dswdcloj/web-development-with-clojure
15:50	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: And there's another initiative geared towards beginners: http://www.braveclojure.com/
15:51	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: thanks, bookmarked!
15:52	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: what's your opinion of 'clojurescript: up and running'?
15:53	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: I haven't read it.
15:55	ystael	dissipate__: I have read "clojurescript: up and running" and it did exactly what I wanted -- namely, it relieved me of the task of piecing together documentation from the web and figuring out what was outdated or inconsistent.
15:56	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: There's something else I'll mention only for the sake of it. Clojure in Small Pieces. A literate version of Clojure. You read it like a book but it actually compiles into Clojure source. Tom Daly is the author, famous for being a literate programming advocate.
15:56	danielszmulewicz	It's free too: http://daly.axiom-developer.org/clojure.pdf
15:57	dissipate__	ystael: that sounds useful
15:59	danielszmulewicz	ystael: thanks. sounds useful indeed
15:59	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: that looks great, thanks.
15:59	ystael	dissipate__: however, this was immediately after the book's release -- it is entirely possible that the book is now less consistent and up to date than you would want.
15:59	ystael	i don't know, as i haven't done much with cljs since then.
15:59	danielszmulewicz	ystael: yeah, things move fast with cljs
16:00	dissipate__	does anyone know where i can get the video to this talk: http://lanyrd.com/2013/clojurewest/sccgmc/ (winning the war on javascript)
16:00	ztellman	muhoo: yeah, that means that when you enqueue you'll immediately enter the receive-all callback
16:00	coventry`	upwardindex: Can you post your behavior.clj? Which git tag are you at?
16:00	ztellman	so enqueueing a sub-task is basically recursion
16:00	cemerick	has anyone been able to get server-sent events working over gzip response compression? It seems that none of the typical implementations of the latter flush partial output, not very helpful for SSE's and the like.
16:00	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: Don't know, but Bodil's talks are grea
16:00	danielszmulewicz	t
16:01	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: i'm interested in the tools she used to win the war
16:01	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: she wrote her own die. catnip
16:01	ztellman	cemerick: what are you using for gzip?
16:01	ztellman	there should be ways to flush the compressor
16:01	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: ide
16:02	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: https://github.com/bodil/catnip
16:02	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: BTW, is bodil a man by birth?
16:02	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: wouldn't think so
16:02	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: hailing from Sweden
16:03	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: she sounded like a he in one of her talks.
16:03	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: Norway sorry
16:03	upwardindex	coventry`: It would be tag 2.0.11 but with a behavior.clj that has both inc and dec as such: https://www.refheap.com/18481
16:03	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: yeah, she has a deep voice
16:03	rigger	hmm, she has stuff on vimeo and youtube from last year, but nothing newer
16:03	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: ah i see. i enjoyed her talk on introduction to FP concepts.
16:04	danielszmulewicz	dissipate__: top notch presenter
16:04	dissipate__	danielszmulewicz: yep, i agree.
16:06	cemerick	ztellman: so far, tried amalloy's middleware, the jetty util filter, and the gzip support baked into tomcat's connector. It looks like Tomcat has a filter that uses a FlushableGzipOutputStream, which sounds promising.
16:07	cemerick	ztellman: .flush on the JDK's gzip impl apparently only just started working in v7 shrug http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4813885
16:07	ztellman	cemerick: ha, didn't know that
16:08	cemerick	ztellman: was quite the suprise when my app was trying to stream SSEs to the browser, and nothing showed up until the stream was exhausted 10 minutes later, yet curl was getting stuff dripped to it properly.
16:08	coventry`	upwardindex: Sorry, not going to be much help.
16:09	cemerick	though, AFAICT, no gzip filters/middlewares I've looked at so far do any kind of flushing, so that eager behaviour is just the way it is...
16:09	upwardindex	coventry`: no worries, probably something touched on later in the tutorial
16:10	ztellman	cemerick: I guess it only matters in the case of SSE, though
16:11	Raynes	dissipate__: Holy shit did you actually say that.
16:11	Raynes	o_o
16:11	dissipate__	Raynes: say what?
16:12	tbaldridge	dissipate__: that highly offensive comment about Bodil, you do know that many of the members of the Clojure community hang out here right?
16:12	mtp	why does it matter what someone was at birth
16:12	Raynes	dissipate__: Just… taken by surprise...
16:12	mtp	were you there for their birth? does it affect you in any way?
16:12	dissipate__	tbaldridge: sorry to offend. i was actually inquiring to avoid offending.
16:13	mtp	dissipate__: step 1: if someone identifies as a thing, they are that thing.
16:13	mtp	step 2: there is no step 2.
16:13	Raynes	But you just added a step 2.
16:13	Raynes	:(
16:13	mtp	no, i added a lack of a step 2. :)
16:14	dissipate__	mtp: i was inquiring to make sure i didn't say something offensive when referring to a gender specific thing
16:14	tbaldridge	dissipate__: my point is, I can't think of a single good reason why anyone should ever ask a question like that in a public forum.
16:15	mtp	dissipate__: you /didn't need to inquire/
16:15	mtp	you had all the information you needed in the word 'she'
16:15	mtp	<:\|
16:15	dissipate__	mtp: in retrospect, you are right. my apologies.
16:15	mtp	thank you
16:16	tbaldridge	so, the weather is nice in Denver this time of the year.
16:16	mtp	i'm also not right, i'm left. :)
16:16	mtp	what's the weather like in Denver?
16:16	cemerick	rkneufeld: Have you been using any gzip compression in your SSE-based services w/ Pedestal?
16:16	dissipate__	tbaldridge: one time i inadvertently asked a gay man if he was in the dating market for women, that was embarrassing (didn't know he was gay). i'm trying to avoid that.
16:17	danielszmulewicz	yippie! first ever edition of read-eval-print-love just got in the mail: http://readevalprintlove.fogus.me/sakura/
16:17	mtp	ask fewer questions, listen more
16:17	mtp	think things through, then ask if you still don't understand
16:18	tbaldridge	cemerick: I don't know if it matters, but Pedestal exposes SSE via a interface that gives you a (send-msg) function. Each call to that function flushes the stream.
16:18	tbaldridge	I'm not sure how gzip fits in with that, however.
16:19	aphyr	as a gay dude, I'd much rather be asked in person, or mistaken for straight, than have my sexuality discussed in an IRC channel.
16:19	aphyr	<back to clojure>
16:20	cemerick	tbaldridge: yeah, the gzip bits are generally lower-level than that. AFAICT, gzip and SSEs don't mix at all, at least pre-JDK7, and using any of the gzip methods I've looked into so far. Was just curious if anyone there had combined the two successfully given pedestal's SSE emphasis.
16:20	dissipate__	mtp: someone in another technical community i was in touch with went through a sex change and told me about their reasons and their story. it helped me understand them better.
16:21	hyPiRion	then you should know that it is a very personal thing
16:21	ztellman	dissipate__: if you're curious about a person, talk to them
16:22	technomancy	mdrogalis: you can actually do (def project {}) if you like =)
16:22	technomancy	but you have to quote all your dependency symbols, so it's pretty annoying
16:23	Bronsa	or just quote the :dependencies vector?
16:23	technomancy	sure
16:23	technomancy	and plugins, etc.
16:23	hyPiRion	or just quote the whole map
16:24	bbloom	(def project (merge '{normal map here} (some-dynamic-bit-here)))
16:24	technomancy	and there are defaults that are merged in even beyond profile stuff, (which you have to include yourself if you def project) so I think it would be a bit misleading to have it just as a map
16:24	technomancy	also I'm not sure it would work if you put relative paths in the raw project map. defproject adds in absolute paths
16:25	mdrogalis	technomancy: Never knew! Thanks :)
16:26	technomancy	mdrogalis: but when it was written read-eval was secret functionality. I might do it differently now that it's documented
16:26	technomancy	well... maybe documented is the wrong word. it's no longer shrouded in absolute secrecy.
16:27	mdrogalis	technomancy: #=?
16:28	hyPiRion	~#=
16:28	clojurebot	https://twitter.com/richhickey/status/134645361796055040
16:29	technomancy	mdrogalis: yeah
16:30	mdrogalis	Hah
16:31	naeg	is there a way to only allow certain keys in a (defn)?
16:31	naeg	with (defn f [first & ...]) it will take any key
16:31	technomancy	naeg: you need preconditions for that
16:32	mdrogalis	Yeah, my thoughts exactly
16:32	naeg	not getting that one?
16:33	rasmusto	naeg: something like this maybe? {:pre ((set (keys args) #{:my :allowed :args}))}
16:33	mdrogalis	naeg: Are you familiar with preconditions in general?
16:33	rasmusto	naeg: oops, I'm missing a paren there after '(keys args)
16:33	mikerod	I'll try once more, :) Can someone give some explanation of why
16:33	mikerod	,(reify java.util.List)
16:33	clojurebot	#<AbstractMethodError java.lang.AbstractMethodError: sandbox$eval57$reify__58.iterator()Ljava/util/Iterator;>
16:33	mikerod	,(reify java.util.Collection)
16:33	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval87$reify__88 sandbox$eval87$reify__88@55e5f4>
16:34	tbaldridge	mikerod: because the reify implements Iterator, clojurebot is trying to print the elements
16:34	naeg	isn't it a bit "unsafe" to simply take any key without letting the user know? what's the idea behind it?
16:34	rasmusto	naeg: here's a good reference about :pre/:post in general: http://blog.fogus.me/2009/12/21/clojures-pre-and-post/
16:35	tbaldridge	naeg: if you aren't trying to read that key, it has no effect. how is that unsafe?
16:35	mikerod	tbaldridge: does this apply to the REPL as well then?
16:35	tbaldridge	mikerod: probably
16:35	naeg	rasmusto: but that's additional work I'd have to do whenever I use keyword args
16:35	mikerod	tbaldridge: ah, that could certainly make some sense.
16:35	rasmusto	naeg: in certain cases it could be? It's basically left up to you to enforce
16:35	technomancy	naeg: yes, I often avoid & in favour of multiple bodies in order not to lose arity checking
16:35	rasmusto	naeg: you could write a macro
16:35	mdrogalis	naeg: https://gist.github.com/MichaelDrogalis/6500824
16:36	mdrogalis	Alright, I'm done for today. See you guys.
16:36	naeg	my question is purely theoretically - see here: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/1m1opf/parameter_lists_in_common_lisp_and_clojure/
16:36	nDuff	naeg: that doesn't look like a question
16:37	naeg	the first comment
16:37	Bronsa	tbaldridge: that's not quite it
16:37	nDuff	naeg: what part of that is a question? It's a comparison.
16:37	coventry`	Why does tools.reader need all this complex logic? Can't it just run (eval) on the form it reads in on line 381? https://github.com/clojure/tools.reader/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/reader.clj#L377
16:37	nDuff	naeg: ...anyhow -- Clojure's keyword args aren't so great, because the JVM doesn't have support for good keyword args.
16:37	Bronsa	tbaldridge: it's because there's a print-method defined for j.u.List and not one for j.u.Collection
16:38	naeg	nDuff: oh, i was refering to my question. whether it isn't unsafe to quietly take any key when using & in the args list
16:38	coventry`	Sorry, s\|tools.reader\|tools.reader/read-eval\|
16:38	nDuff	Ahh.
16:38	naeg	and I came to that question through this comparison. I just thought that there has to be some reason why clojure does it that way
16:39	technomancy	naeg: it's a trade-off; clojure chooses flexibility/speed over safety usually
16:39	tbaldridge	naeg: there's a difference there, Clojure really never attempts to hold your hand. It takes the opinion that garbage-in = garbage-out.
16:40	naeg	I like most of the design aspects/ideas in clojure (still learning though), but this seems odd to me
16:40	naeg	especially because I'm a huge fan of keyword args in general
16:40	tbaldridge	nDuff: or just don't hand garbage to your functions, no reason to create more work for yourself :-P
16:40	nDuff	naeg: That behavior stays close to what the underlying platform can do efficiently.
16:41	technomancy	naeg: there are a lot of cool things you can do with free-form maps that are a lot more difficult with fixed records, but you do have to be more careful.
16:41	Bronsa	coventry`: I just reimplemented it how LispReader.java does, I have absolutely no idea why it's like this in that implementation though
16:42	coventry`	Bronsa: Thanks.
16:42	bbloom	Bronsa: maybe a staging issue? probably don't want the circular dependency between the reader & the compiler
16:43	hiredman	the eval of read-eval is a restricted subset of eval
16:43	Bronsa	bbloom: I don't really see how circular dependencies could be a problem in this case, more likely it's just to limit its power or something like that
16:44	bbloom	Bronsa: i mean it can call arbitrary static methods right? isn't that basically arbitrarily powerful?
16:44	bbloom	f
16:44	coventry`	Bronsa: All tools.reader tests seem to run fine if you replace the if starting on line 382 with (eval o), assuming the source file and running 'lein test' is the right way to test that.
16:45	coventry`	modifying the source file
16:45	hiredman	coventry`: the restrictions on what can be evaled are by design
16:45	naeg	I hope you guys are ok with me stealing your knowledge and putting it on reddit without giving credit - if otherwhise, please let me know
16:46	Bronsa	coventry`: yes, but I didn't want to make #= do more than what one would expect knowing the limitations of LispReaders' #=
16:46	callen	ah that feel when you actually have users.
16:48	Bronsa	hiredman: bbloom is it unlikely the assumption that #= cherry-picks some eval features because those are the only needed when printing objects to embed them?
16:48	Bronsa	only ones*
16:48	naeg	thanks for the info
16:48	coventry`	callen: I'm not complaining, just curious.
16:49	coventry`	naeg: Why not give a cite? http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2013-09-09.html#16:35f
16:49	bbloom	Bronsa: i dunno anything about the history of #=, but it seems like an exceedingly bad idea that i can only imagine was a temporary hack :-P
16:49	callen	coventry`: huh?
16:49	tbaldridge	(inc bbloom)
16:49	lazybot	⇒ 16
16:50	technomancy	bbloom: probably why it was kept secret for so long
16:50	coventry`	callen: never mind.
16:50	technomancy	only really came out once they realized people were using the reader on untrusted data
16:50	callen	coventry`: :(
16:51	coventry`	callen: Thought you were referring to this conversation. Hence, never mind.
16:51	bbloom	read-eval, and it's involvement in print-dup, is a symptom of a confluence of bigger problems partially solved by tagged literals & some other mechanisms, but largely unaddressed
16:52	callen	coventry`: oh sorry.
16:56	coventry`	Oh, I see. Didn't realize how limited the evaluation in #= is.
17:12	MisterSinister	Hi folks. Could someone help me do something with Leiningen?
17:12	rasmusto	~anyone
17:12	clojurebot	anyone is anybody
17:13	rasmusto	oh
17:13	MisterSinister	Lol, nice one. :P
17:14	MisterSinister	Anyways, is there some way to automatically have Leiningen add certain dependencies to its project file without me having to input them manually? Essentially, I want it to include those dependencies into the project file as soon as it's created.
17:15	technomancy	MisterSinister: right now the best you can do is create a new template
17:15	MisterSinister	And how do I do that?
17:15	technomancy	I would take a patch to make the default templates check the user profile to see which default dependencies it sholud insert
17:15	technomancy	MisterSinister: `lein help templates`
17:15	MisterSinister	Thanks - I'll look at that.
17:16	technomancy	sure
17:20	MisterSinister	Another question - generic.arithmetic. If I use, rather than require, it into my Clojure program, will it break anything?
17:22	coventry`	(use) is great for exploration, but when you're writing something complex it's nice to have an easy way to account for everything in the current namespace.
17:23	noprompt	dnolen: thanks for your core.async posts. they've really helped me a lot this weekend.
17:23	dnolen	noprompt: glad to hear it
17:24	noprompt	dnolen: have you tried pairing watches with channels?
17:24	dnolen	noprompt: I have got around to that, seems like a good idea for some use cases
17:25	dnolen	s/have/haven't
17:25	noprompt	dnolen: i was trying to figure out how to do some kind of data-bindingish stuff that way.
17:25	tbaldridge	noprompt: paired with (sliding-buffer 1), they'd work quite nicely, imo
17:26	noprompt	tbaldridge: i'll try it out.
17:26	noprompt	once things started clicking, i got really excited.
17:26	Apage43	you can sometimes write with :use at first and then have https://github.com/technomancy/slamhound sort you out later
17:27	MisterSinister	Is everything technomancy writes some kind of literary reference?
17:27	technomancy	everything newer than 2008
17:28	noprompt	off topic but one thing i discovered this weekend were js/HTMLCollection and js/NodeList. those are kind of scary.
17:28	MisterSinister	So basically, slamhound just does all the namespace-making work for you?
17:28	MisterSinister	By the looks of it?
17:28	technomancy	sometimes it has to guess
17:29	Apage43	kinda. It can guess what you're using, but I tend to make sure I've typed things that are actually there so it doesn't have to
17:29	Apage43	for me it's generally useful to cleanup things i'm requiring but no longer using
17:29	MisterSinister	Last thing. How would I include stuff from clojure-contrib?
17:29	noprompt	on the other hand i'm wondering if you couldn't observe them some how for changes since they are "live" lists.
17:29	MisterSinister	Like, what do I add to dependencies?
17:30	timsg	Anyone know how to access the doc strings sometimes attached as metadata to namespaces?
17:30	noprompt	not sure if that makes any sense or not.
17:30	technomancy	MisterSinister: same as any lib: rad the readme
17:30	bbloom	MisterSinister: judging from your questions, it sounds like you're trying to eliminate the work of adding depedencies and namespace requires. are you just trying to approximate a rails-style auto-require so you don't need to manually specify those things?
17:30	technomancy	read
17:31	MisterSinister	bbloom: It's basically that, if I happen to want to add a lot of stuff from elsewhere that I use often, it'd be nice if any project I create with Leiningen comes preloaded with them. So I don't have to tell it manually to add seesaw, stuff from clojure-contrib, my own utilities etc. every time I make a new project.
17:33	Apage43	,(meta (clojure.lang.Namespace/find 'clojure.core))
17:33	clojurebot	{:doc "Fundamental library of the Clojure language"}
17:33	bbloom	MisterSinister: but you also mentioned :use instead of :require -- I think you might be prematurely generalizing. unless you often create new projects w/ exactly the same dependencies
17:33	technomancy	do you really only work on GUI projects?
17:33	Apage43	^ timsg
17:33	bbloom	MisterSinister: seems like a place where copy-paste is your friend :-P
17:34	MisterSinister	bbloom: Unrelated question. I wasn't quite sure if :use-ing a file that contains a multimethod named * would cause problems with core Clojure, which has a function named *.
17:34	MisterSinister	technomancy: An example.
17:35	noonian	in general, I find it much cleaner to :require namespaces :as something, and then explicitly :refer to any function names that I don't want to have to namespace qualify
17:36	noprompt	one thing i'm confused about is when should i use put! instead of >! etc?
17:36	technomancy	MisterSinister: that can happen. you'll get a warning.
17:36	tbaldridge	noprompt: use put! when you don't want to wait for the response. >! for when you want to wait
17:36	technomancy	better to stick to require
17:37	tbaldridge	noprompt: put! is async put, >! is sync put
17:37	bbloom	MisterSinister: you can use (:refer-clojure :exclude [+ *])
17:37	bbloom	in your ns form
17:37	bbloom	to avoid that warning within the one namespace
17:37	tbaldridge	noprompt: be careful though, because the channel you are put!'ing into may be full, and then you'll just pile up a ton of pending puts, finally resulting in an error
17:37	MisterSinister	bbloom: Would that mean I have to define methods + * for Number if I want to add numbers?
17:38	MisterSinister	+ and *
17:38	tbaldridge	noprompt: https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/main/clojure/cljs/core/async/impl/channels.cljs#L57
17:38	bbloom	MisterSinister: you can refer to the clojure ones by full qualification: clojure.core/+
17:38	bbloom	MisterSinister: or you can use an alias:
17:38	tbaldridge	where MAX-QUEUE-SIZE is currently 1024
17:38	MisterSinister	bbloom: Thanks, that helps.
17:38	noprompt	tbaldridge: so would you recommend considering sliding-buffer in situations where you want to use put! ?
17:38	bbloom	(:refer-clojure :as clj :exclude [* +])
17:38	bbloom	clj/+
17:38	bbloom	or even rename them:
17:39	tbaldridge	noprompt: most of the time, yes.
17:39	bbloom	(:refer-clojure :rename {+ core+})
17:39	MisterSinister	I'm still a noob at Clojure. :P
17:39	bbloom	(doc refer)
17:39	clojurebot	"([ns-sym & filters]); refers to all public vars of ns, subject to filters. filters can include at most one each of: :exclude list-of-symbols :only list-of-symbols :rename map-of-fromsymbol-tosymbol For each public interned var in the namespace named by the symbol, adds a mapping from the name of the var to the var to the current namespace. Throws an exception if name is already mapped to something else in the current
17:39	tbaldridge	noprompt: perhaps not when it's closely tied to the use of take!, but yeah, put! is only ever really used at the edges of your program
17:40	tbaldridge	noprompt: also note that this is an anti-pattern: (go (>! c 42)) as that's exactly the same as put!
17:40	MisterSinister	Alrighty, thanks everyone! That helps.
17:40	noprompt	interesting
17:41	bbloom	tbaldridge: well exactly the same but even slower! :-P
17:41	tbaldridge	bbloom: correct
17:41	coventry`	Is ##(instance? clojure.lang.IFn (fn [] 1)) a reliable way to test that a value is callable?
17:42	lazybot	⇒ true
17:42	bbloom	coventry`: ##(doc ifn?)
17:42	lazybot	⇒ "([x]); Returns true if x implements IFn. Note that many data structures (e.g. sets and maps) implement IFn"
17:42	coventry`	bbloom: Thanks.
17:42	MisterSinister	Yeah, as I recall, all IFns implement both Runnable and Callable.
17:42	noprompt	so is put! the analogue of go's ->
17:43	bbloom	noprompt: no
17:43	bbloom	noprompt: go's -> is like >!
17:43	bbloom	noprompt: in go, you'd have to do: go function() { x -> c }
17:43	bbloom	if my syntax is right
17:43	tbaldridge	noprompt: put! is the analogue to (go (>! c 42))
17:43	bbloom	func () ....
17:44	noprompt	tbaldridge: oh! right! ok i get it now.
17:44	hyPiRion	it's the other way around, bbloom
17:44	hyPiRion	go func() { chan <- elem }
17:44	hyPiRion	(just fyi)
17:45	noprompt	so is (go (<! c 42)) the same as (take! c 42)?
17:47	noprompt	oh whoops nm
17:48	noprompt	sorry for all these questions, i'm trying to understand this.
17:50	bbloom	hyPiRion: dur, right. thx
17:59	maximus_	Is there any way to pretty print java objects from clojure?
17:59	maximus_	For debugging purposes?
18:01	noprompt	callen: did you see this https://github.com/stanaka/dash-at-point#readme
18:01	dissipate__	does anyone know if qi has been ported to clojure?
18:01	ivan	http://readevalprintlove.fogus.me/ Dylan is a lisp?
18:03	technomancy	dissipate__: I think someone is working on it, but the license makes it hard to care.
18:03	dissipate__	technomancy: ah, i didn't know qi was tied up with a proprietary license. :(
18:04	technomancy	there's a pretty epic "I wasn't able to make money with my OSS so I'm gonna take my toys and go home" rant re: qi
18:09	dissipate__	technomancy: what kind of legal issues would arise if qi's type system was ported into clojure's core?
18:09	Raynes	None, because that's almost certainly not going to happen :p
18:09	technomancy	I think qi doesn't have the same interop goals as clojure
18:10	dissipate__	technomancy: or rather, ported into core.typed
18:10	technomancy	so they have a lot more freedom to build out the type system
18:10	dissipate__	Raynes: sorry, meant core.typed
18:12	dissipate__	Raynes: i want to bring all of APL into Clojure's special forms.
18:14	dnolen	ivan: yep
18:16	ivan	interesting, I should have schooled myself with wikipedia
18:17	Raynes	noprompt: How's things?
18:17	noprompt	Raynes: ok. still busy as hell outside of work. hoping things settle down soon. :-/
18:17	noprompt	Raynes: u?
18:18	Raynes	noprompt: Sorry for all the Github pinging. You're probably thinking you broke everything. Not the case, I'm just explaining to Tony Batchelli why there is a version of fs that doesn't work on Java 7.
18:18	Raynes	Er, java 6.
18:18	Raynes	MONDAYS, MAN.
18:18	Raynes	Nothing for 'em.
18:19	Raynes	noprompt: I'm fine. Have a roommate all of a sudden.
18:19	SegFaultAX	Raynes: It's definitely a Monday. We've already had to do 2 reverts on our code. :(
18:19	Raynes	SegFaultAX: I'm fixing merge conflicts. :(
18:20	clj_newb_2345	I need to build a single page app that uses websockets. What clojure libraries should I be using?
18:20	clj_newb_2345	(I need sockets since I need the server to push updates to the client and I don't want to use comet / long polling hacks)
18:21	noprompt	Raynes: oh, no worries. :-) glad i didn't break anything. i try really hard not to. :-P
18:21	francis_wolke`	clj_newb_2345: http-kit serverside and socket.io client side is what I use. Also, google closure has a websocket implementation.
18:21	Raynes	clj_newb_2345: lamina has websocket stuff that I think coworkers use for things and stuff.
18:21	clj_newb_2345	google closure was a messy for me
18:21	clj_newb_2345	I'm already using http-kit on server side
18:22	callen	noprompt: I did now. Thanks.
18:22	francis_wolke`	clj_newb_2345: socket.io is much less so. I can post a refheap of the code if you'd like
18:22	clj_newb_2345	francis_wolke`: sure that'd be great
18:22	clj_newb_2345	also, what "gui library" do you use clinet side?
18:23	clj_newb_2345	I've been looking at backbone, angular, ember
18:23	clj_newb_2345	and not sure how they're different
18:23	noprompt	Raynes: just read the thread. has fs been bumped to the next major version?
18:23	Raynes	noprompt: No.
18:23	SegFaultAX	I personally wouldn't use ember against a non-rails backend.
18:23	noprompt	Raynes: what does it need to get there?
18:23	Raynes	noprompt: One moment.
18:24	SegFaultAX	Not that ember is rails specific, not at all. But I don't see the benefit unless you're taking advantage specifically of Rails integration.
18:24	clj_newb_2345	no, I'm using clojure on the backend
18:24	SegFaultAX	Then again, I we use marionette which is a whole new level of brain damage.
18:24	clj_newb_2345	probably either monger, redis, or datomic
18:24	clj_newb_2345	backbone.marionette?
18:25	SegFaultAX	clj_newb_2345: Yes.
18:25	francis_wolke`	clj_newb_2345: refheap.com/18483
18:25	SegFaultAX	clj_newb_2345: Backbone by itself is pointless.
18:25	Raynes	noprompt: https://github.com/Raynes/fs/issues/47 This is a big deal. The API needs to be audited to make sure all the functions are consistent in argument ordering and what they return (everything should return a File object and not a string unless it absolutely does not make sense, because you don't want to chain functions and make a new File object every time and then convert it to a string every time, that's silly).
18:25	SegFaultAX	clj_newb_2345: It doesn't provide nearly enough functionality to justify using it alone.
18:26	Raynes	noprompt: The more complicated issue and the one I've been lazy about is https://github.com/Raynes/fs/issues/38
18:26	noprompt	Raynes: yeah i remember that one.
18:26	Raynes	noprompt: If you want to take a look at that second one at some point, you'd definitely be jumpstarting a new fs dev cycle.
18:26	callen	noprompt: oh yeah man, this dash-at-point thing is pimp. it even prefixes the language type. NICE WORK
18:26	Raynes	:p
18:26	callen	noprompt: thanks for sharing that :D
18:29	callen	noprompt: how has clang been treating you?
18:29	clj_newb_2345	francis_wolke`: thanks
18:31	noprompt	Raynes: ok. i've got a few things in the queue i need to take care of, but i'd like to help that situation out.
18:31	Raynes	noprompt: Appreciated. No worries. You're not obligated to do anything. :)
18:32	noprompt	callen: clang isn't too bad. i submitted a few small patches last week. i was also messing with it along side mrhyde.
18:32	callen	noprompt: I might end up using it, so I'm keeping my ear to the ground.
18:33	noprompt	callen: but the whole thing just feels hakish. it feels like there's a better way.
18:34	ystael	lo
18:34	ystael	sorry
18:34	callen	noprompt: I saw that it smacked the $parse around to inject cljs compat. something to think about.
18:35	noprompt	callen: yeah, that's actually one of neat things.
18:36	noprompt	callen: i'm using it on a project right now and it works fine but, like i said, it feels hackish.
18:36	akurilin	Hey folks, is there a best practice for packaging errors for REST-style APIs? I'm now using :body {:error {:param-name ["present" "numeric"]}} etc, wondering if there's a better way or if perhaps something is going to bite me down the line.
18:36	noprompt	callen: but feelings are for rubyists.
18:36	noprompt	:-P
18:36	callen	noprompt: I feel similarly...about Rubyists...
18:36	coventry`	Somehow, I've gotten a repl into a state where (fn [] 1) DWIW, but (defn tst [] 1) results in "No such var: G__212620/fn". I have been mucking around with dumping clojure.core into new namespaces, but at the repl ns is not G__212620, and (var defn) gives #'clojure.core/defn. Any ideas what could be going on?
18:37	callen	akurilin: use HTTP status codes as applicable, return errors formatted using internal error codes and messages in the same protocol/style the normal API uses.
18:38	akurilin	callen, assuming I'm already doing the http codes right, should I basically come up with my own internal error schema?
18:39	noprompt	this is my new favorite quote " Oh, holy shit, here is an IRC server, written in fucking javascript, and it's 400 lines of code."
18:39	callen	akurilin: more or less, just follow the pattern of the protocol you're using and stick to it.
18:39	lgs32a	coventry: game over i guess.
18:39	amalloy	coventry`: try macroexpanding the defn, and see if it looks suspicious
18:39	akurilin	callen, I'm not sure what that means tbh.
18:40	clj_newb_2345	somewhat off topic -- I have an app in clojurescript; how do I get the javascript console on chrome on nexus 7 when I view the page?
18:40	lgs32a	coventry: does defn work in other namespaces
18:40	callen	akurilin: if it's predominantly a JSON API, then return JSON.
18:40	coventry`	amalloy. Oh, duh. Thanks. (def tst (G__212620/fn ([] 1))) I must have eval'd something in the wrong namespace...
18:41	akurilin	callen, I see, thanks!
19:02	noprompt	dnolen: i noticed that with links and form submissions you need to do a "regular" listen + preventDefault. is there reason why?
19:03	noprompt	dnolen: iow. it seems like by the time i pull the event off the channel it's to late to call .preventDefault.
19:09	MisterSinister	I think there's something about defrecord I'm not getting.
19:10	MisterSinister	Since I keep getting this error here:
19:10	MisterSinister	CompilerException java.lang.ClassFormatError: Duplicate method name&signature in class file...
19:10	MisterSinister	I'm trying to have the record implement a protocol, and it keeps giving me this error.
19:11	coventry`	What's the right way to eval into a different namespace. I have been using (binding [ns ns]), but keep running into strange behavior like ##(let [ns (create-ns (gensym))] (binding [ns ns] (require '[clojure.core :as d]) (d/inc 0)))
19:11	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! pop-thread-bindings is bad!
19:11	coventry`	(Which complains about no such namespace d)
19:17	dnolen	noprompt: yep, there's no way around that since moving thing through channels is async and there's no guarantee when they will actually get delivered.
19:18	dnolen	noprompt: if you look at my autocompleter stuff you'll see that these kinds of cases must be specially handled. IMO listen needs to take an atom or something like that to communicate event suppression.
19:18	callen	is it common to expect a burst of activity on a channel with nothing happening later and then timeout the "taking" from the channel?
19:19	dnolen	noprompt: annoying but not so different from JS where you going to have to this kind of thing via mutable state flag of some kind.
19:19	callen	specifically to funnel data from a callback to somebody else. or should I just use an atom?
19:19	technomancy	callen: IRC channel or something else? =P
19:19	callen	core.async
19:19	callen	technomancy: didn't you hear? this is #core.async every time, all the time.
19:20	noprompt	dnolen: it's only a minor annoyance. but then again i guess that's what abstraction is for.
19:20	dnolen	callen: not sure what you mean by "nothing happening"
19:20	callen	dnolen: nobody is going to put into the channel after the initial burst.
19:21	callen	I'm sanity-checking that this is a problem-modelling mismatch
19:21	dnolen	callen: like to handle the case if somebody doesn't take?
19:21	callen	the problem with using an atom for this is that I have to set some kind of await boolean to know when it's done.
19:21	callen	dnolen: it's to funnel data from a callback with a closed over channel to somebody else who gets handed the channel.
19:22	callen	but the burst of data is a one-off.
19:22	callen	it's not a persistent relationship.
19:24	callen	I'm just marshalling a seq of data from a callback that will begin recv'ing and funneling the data but only "once".
19:24	callen	by all means tell me if I'm doing something dumb.
19:25	dnolen	callen: I guess I don't see a problem?
19:25	callen	It felt like I might be doing something wrong.
19:26	callen	dnolen: believe it or not, I doubt myself sometimes ;)
19:28	dnolen	noprompt: in general you have little control over at point you convert from host event into core.async event - this is where issues around host event loop interaction and host resource management appear
19:36	dnolen	noprompt: if you built some kind of framework you could always prevent default or something like that - but I think that would just end up being more surprising. Better to just take the coordination atom as an extra parameter
19:36	noprompt	dnolen: what do you mean by "coordination atom"?
19:37	dnolen	noprompt: just an atom you can bang on to trigger prevent default
19:38	noprompt	dnolen: like with a watch?
19:38	noprompt	dnolen: this is very new ground for me. :-/
19:40	dnolen	noprompt: look at html-menu-events http://swannodette.github.io/2013/08/17/comparative/
19:40	dnolen	noprompt: in my design listen takes an extra fn parameter which can interact with the event before it enters a channel
19:41	noprompt	dnolen: reading...
19:43	dnolen	noprompt: the problem is we want to allow tab key to trigger menu item selection, not HTML input field blur - very similar to the issues you're describing
19:43	dnolen	noprompt: so if the menu is open we reset! allow-tab to true and suppress the browsers default behavior, this is all before we write the event into the channel for the rest of the system to consume.
19:48	clj_newb_2345	what is the clojurescript alternative to jquery?
19:49	nDuff	clj_newb_2345: cljs _can_ be used with jQuery.
19:49	clj_newb_2345	ya
19:49	clj_newb_2345	but suppose for rthe sake of purity
19:49	clj_newb_2345	I wnated pure clojurescript
19:49	dnolen	clj_newb_2345: I don't recomment it personally, GClosure doesn't pretty much everything need w/o adding another 32 of Gzipped code
19:50	nDuff	clj_newb_2345: Using Google Closure would actually be a bit closer, since cljs is relying on it already (and has support for its package mechanism).
19:50	nDuff	clj_newb_2345: ...though if you want something that's cljs all the way down, I don't know that that exists.
19:50	dnolen	clj_newb_2345: GClosure does everything I mean
19:50	clj_newb_2345	dnolen: are you not recommenting jquery, or are you not recommending google closure?
19:51	clj_newb_2345	dnolen: even for mobile apps?
19:51	clj_newb_2345	actually, i'm stupid, i should mention taht i'm targeting the iphone and the nexus 4
19:51	dnolen	clj_newb_2345: not recommending it ever with CLJS
19:51	clj_newb_2345	dnolen: is "it" jquery or is "it" google closure?
19:51	clj_newb_2345	I'm getting confused by the anarmorphic macros
19:51	dnolen	clj_newb_2345: I don't recommend jQuery.
19:51	clj_newb_2345	I understand now. :-)
19:51	dnolen	clj_newb_2345: unless you're depending on jQuery UI, which I also don't recommend
19:52	clj_newb_2345	dnolen: so you recommend google closure instead ?
19:52	dnolen	clj_newb_2345: yep
19:52	clj_newb_2345	actually, I was wondering if someon refactored out pedestal's rendering libraries
19:52	dnolen	clj_newb_2345: thought it doesn't have have usable widgets, but I'm comfortable writing those myself.
19:52	clj_newb_2345	I like this idea of just sending "diffs" and the right htings happening
19:52	dnolen	your mileage may very
19:56	dissipate__	dnolen: is there a pure clojurescript widget toolkit?
19:57	dissipate__	i haven't been able to find one
19:57	dnolen	dissipate__: there is not
19:57	dissipate__	dnolen: why did you recommend google closure widgets?
19:58	dnolen	dissipate__: I specifically did not recommend them
19:58	dnolen	dissipate__: but there's a single JS widget library I would recommend, they're all abominations for the most part
19:58	dnolen	"there's not a single"
19:59	dissipate__	member:clj_newb_2345 member:dnolen: member:so you recommend google closure instead ?
19:59	dissipate__	[member:dnolen member:clj_newb_2345: yep
19:59	dnolen	dissipate__: over jQuery, nothing to do w/ widgets
19:59	clj_newb_2345	wtf is this whole "member:" thing?
19:59	clj_newb_2345	https://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs/blob/master/doc/tutorial-01.md <-- my next readig project
19:59	dnolen	if you use jQuery for basic DOM facilities and cross-browser quirks, GClosure is just as good and optimizable
19:59	clj_newb_2345	anyone recommend against it?
20:00	dnolen	clj_newb_2345: it looks pretty good
20:01	dissipate__	clj_newb_2345: my IRC client is a clojure REPL, members of the chat are labeled as such.
20:08	llambda	hm is it okay to use lein-serve in production? e.g. serve-headless?
20:08	llambda	er ring-serve, rather
20:09	technomancy	llambda: it's possible, but uberjars are way easier
20:10	technomancy	easier not to screw up
20:10	llambda	technomancy: yeah i'm actually compiling it into an uberjar
20:11	dissipate__	anyone know if this site is up to date? http://www.clojure-toolbox.com/
20:11	technomancy	llambda: if you use lein in production (whether lein run or lein ring) you have to be careful to add trampoliniing and removing the default profiles
20:11	llambda	i guess i want something that bootstraps and runs the ring server for me, so i just stuck the call to serve-headless into -main and then compiled an uberjar
20:12	technomancy	llambda: https://github.com/technomancy/syme/blob/master/src/syme/web.clj#L140
20:12	llambda	ah so it is better to use run-jetty directly, technomancy?
20:12	technomancy	IMO it's better. others disagree.
20:13	llambda	i'm inclined to go with your opinion :)
20:13	llambda	thank you for the advice!
20:13	technomancy	np
20:21	danielszmulewicz	technomancy: I'm running `lein with-profile production task`, is this sufficient to "remove the other profiles" or is there additional things to do?
20:21	technomancy	danielszmulewicz: that's enough for profiles, but you probably want trampoline too
20:21	danielszmulewicz	technomancy: so that leiningen exits the jam?
20:22	danielszmulewicz	jvm
20:22	devn	good evening
20:22	technomancy	yeah
20:22	danielszmulewicz	technomancy: thanks.
20:22	technomancy	in the past some profile settings interacted badly with trampoline... all the known bugs have been fixed
20:22	devn	technomancy: is syme back and working?
20:22	technomancy	but uberjars are always going to be simpler
20:22	technomancy	devn: i've used it a couple times since you mentioned the issues
20:22	devn	awesome
20:23	devn	i think i might give it a try with someone i'm working with tomorrow
20:24	Raynes	devn: How's things?
20:24	technomancy	I want to toss out the DB and replace it with a write-only event log
20:26	technomancy	I should probably do that to clojars first tho
20:27	devn	Raynes: pretty good
20:27	devn	you?
20:27	clojurebot	you are likely to be eaten by a grue.
20:27	technomancy	clojurebot: botsnack
20:27	clojurebot	Thanks, but I prefer chocolate
20:42	coventry`	What's the right way to catch an IllegalArgumentException? E.g., ##(try (take 2 'foo) (catch Exception e nil))
20:42	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! catch is bad!
20:42	coventry`	(That fails to catch the IllegalArgumentException from trying to seq 'foo, in my hands.)
20:42	coventry`	Hmm, why is catch dangerous?
20:44	technomancy	it's dangerous to expose in an arbitrary-eval bot
20:44	callen	technomancy: embrace danger!
20:44	callen	excitement!
20:45	coventry`	I'm curious about how catch could be used maliciously.
20:46	technomancy	you could construct a loop that would never exit
20:47	coventry`	,((fn [] (recur)))
20:47	coventry`	Hope I didn't break it.
20:47	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
20:49	coventry`	How is throw different?
20:49	coventry`	/worse?
20:49	coventry`	Even if I try to catch IllegalArgumentException, it fails. Bizarre.
20:52	xeqi	technomancy: I've been using datomic-free lately in a project, and it would work well for the clojars event logs as well
20:52	akurilin	callen, regarding your comment on handling ring app configs, do you expose that config map through a function or a var? I'm wondering if there would be perf implications if I were to make that map anew each time from dozens of (env) calls. I could memoize it as well, although I wonder if there's ever a scenario where I'd want to change things.
20:53	technomancy	xeqi: strongly object to introducing a proprietary dependency
20:53	callen	akurilin: I implicitly memoize it by def'ing a map and using it as if it were an fn.
20:53	callen	akurilin: I use weavejester/environ with it.
20:54	callen	xeqi: <3
20:54	callen	xeqi: I like datomic, but a proprietary dependency in a community resource like clojars is a little scurry.
20:55	akurilin	callen, sounds good, thx!
20:55	callen	technomancy: talk to me about event logs.
20:55	callen	technomancy: I love this stuff. Live for this stuff. Whatcha need stranger?
20:55	technomancy	callen: I need like a week to sit down and just make it work =)
20:55	technomancy	well, we could use some review
20:55	xeqi	callen, technomancy: agreed, just found it humorous how similar the ideas are
20:56	technomancy	xeqi: if we had a nontrivial amount of data I might be more inclined to look for other options
20:56	callen	xeqi: is he planning to write an event sourcing system?
20:56	technomancy	callen: it's already written =)
20:56	technomancy	it's just not fully switched on
20:57	xeqi	technomancy: whats left to implement? I thought I had gotten all the writes to the files in and the atom cache working for the tests
20:57	xeqi	ah
20:57	callen	technomancy: gerd dermert
20:57	technomancy	I'm just not sure I trust it yet
20:57	callen	technomancy: write tests.
20:58	xeqi	technomancy: ah, fun w/ a staging environment
20:58	technomancy	I'm not good at that like xeqi =)
20:58	callen	I heard if you write enough unit tests you can prove god doesn't exist.
20:58	technomancy	the cool thing is both code paths co-exist
20:58	callen	or at least, that's what Rubyist told me.
20:58	callen	what a*
20:58	technomancy	so we could run another instance that reads from the event stream or something on another port
20:59	technomancy	argh; gotta go but we should talk event streams some time
21:04	ddellacosta	callen: trying to think of the appropriate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy quote for unit tests + existence of god
21:05	ddellacosta	ANYHOO, please someone tell me if it is bad to assume I can rely on the ordering of the set of collections returned from juxt?
21:06	callen	ddellacosta: it's best to avoid relying on ordering unless you're willing to force an ordering explicitly and potentially also reify it in the collection type.
21:07	callen	ddellacosta: in this case, it's unlikely to hurt you though.
21:08	ddellacosta	callen: yeah, I knew you were gonna say that. I mean, I'm doing something like: ((juxt (partial map :k1) (partial map :k2) (partial map :k3)) some-map). I figure that, since we the functions will move through the map in the same order it's okay, but...
21:09	ddellacosta	callen: I gotta figure out whether or not it is worth it to really do it The Right Way in this case or not...
21:09	callen	I must be getting too predictable. Time to start randomly giving destructive advice.
21:09	callen	ddellacosta: all else fails, leave a comment warning.
21:10	callen	;; forgive me, this relies on implicit ordering. Feel free to egg my house if this ruins your day.
21:10	ddellacosta	callen: haha, no, it's more to say, I knew someone was going to say that.
21:10	callen	ddellacosta: it's okay, I'll give more interesting advice in future.
21:10	ddellacosta	callen: haha, perfect.
21:10	callen	I need to start spreading the gospel of #=
21:10	ddellacosta	callen: nothing wrong with being the voice of reason, you know.
21:11	ddellacosta	callen: woah, what is #=? haven't seen that one
21:11	ddellacosta	#_ makes me mad
21:11	ddellacosta	heh
21:13	xeqi	ddellacosta: #= is read-eval, basically clojure might eval code as part of reading it
21:13	ddellacosta	xeqi: thanks. That reader syntax is a pain to Google.
21:14	`rhg	#= ftw
21:14	`rhg	so many holes lol
21:15	xeqi	`rhg: have you found an arbitrary code execution with read-eval false in 1.5+?
21:15	`rhg	no
21:15	`rhg	but some cba to bind it
21:16	mange	ddellacosta: Could you use (apply map vector (map (juxt :k1 :k2 :k3) some-seq-of-maps)) instead?
21:16	francis_wolke`	`rhg: cba?
21:17	`rhg	i stole it from an english dude
21:17	`rhg	means could but im too lazy
21:17	ddellacosta	mange: oh wow, let me try that, may just do it
21:17	francis_wolke`	k
21:18	callen	`rhg: most polite rendering I've seen.
21:18	`rhg	:D
21:20	ddellacosta	mange: super cool. what's awesome about your snippet is that it is a shorter, better way to do what I was doing anyways, which was group those values together so I could clojure.string/join them. I was calling interleave, then partition…you just saved me two steps. Thanks!
21:21	`rhg	clojure does that
21:22	ddellacosta	`rhg: not sure what you meant by that, but feel like I probably agree
21:22	`rhg	makes simple work best
21:22	ddellacosta	`rhg: ah. Yep, agree
21:23	`rhg	i dont really like the jvm, but clojure is so addictive
21:24	mlb-	How can I refer to an anonymous function inside said functions declaration?
21:24	xeqi	mlb-: (fn scoped-name [] ... (scoped-name ...))
21:24	hyPiRion	or just recur, in certain cases.
21:25	mlb-	hyPiRion: yeah... don't wanna have to take the time to rewrite function in TCO style
21:25	mlb-	xeqi: I assume scoped-name is only in the anonymous function's scope?
21:25	hyPiRion	,(recur) ;D
21:25	mtp	write it that way in the first place :)
21:26	mtp	bnew
21:26	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
21:26	mtp	errrrrrp
21:26	xeqi	mlb-: yes
21:26	mlb-	xeqi: awesome, thanks
21:27	mlb-	mtp: haha, I'm certainly no stranger to doing that, but I'd prefer to keep this "simple" for my non-functionally oriented coworkers =]
21:28	callen	`rhg: ditto, but I'm warming to the JVM
21:28	callen	modulo start time.
21:28	callen	having something "hella fuckin' fast" is cool.
21:29	`rhg	same
21:52	drusellers	What does the idiom of naming a symbol with a postfix '*' mean (i.e. https://github.com/cemerick/friend-demo/blob/master/src/clj/cemerick/friend_demo/http_basic.clj#L16)
21:53	`rhg	almost, but not quite
21:54	sdegutis	drusellers: I've seen it mean "this is a private thing that the non-suffixed version uses internally" and "this is a lower-level version of the non-suffixed thing" and "this is a version of the non-suffixed thing that has other args or somehow behaves slightly differently"
21:54	drusellers	sdegutis: ok, that makes sense in the context of my link as well.
21:54	drusellers	thank you
21:55	callen	drusellers: it's nothing to do with being private.
21:55	xeqi	sdegutis: did you see technomancy's awnser about why project.clj is not just a data structure?
21:55	sdegutis	xeqi: never
21:55	drusellers	callen: not in the terms of defn, but more of a way to notate it. especially in this case of using a macro. eh?
21:56	drusellers	defn-
21:56	callen	drusellers: it sometimes mean it represents a slightly lower level component of an API, but it's closer to indicating a "counterpart", like insert vs. insert, in Korma insert is a macro, insert is the function counterpart to insert that does the real heavy-lifting.
21:56	callen	drusellers: defn- is private, but * as a notation has absolutely no connection with being "private".
21:56	drusellers	callen: agreed
21:56	drusellers	callen: notation of something lower level
21:56	callen	drusellers: slightly. I would emphasize the "counterpart" part.
21:56	callen	drusellers: I encourage people to use the * fns in Korma.
21:56	drusellers	callen: ok cool
21:56	callen	when the macros don't suit them, that is.
21:57	callen	anything meant to be private, will be.
21:57	sdegutis	xeqi: Ah, just read now: http://logs.lazybot.org/irc.freenode.net/%23clojure/2013-09-09.txt
21:57	callen	drusellers: it's an old pattern from other Lisps.
21:57	Apage43	in clojure.core, let* is the actual built in thing that binds names to values, and let is a macro that adds all the destructuring goodness (among other things), same for fn* and fn
21:57	sdegutis	Although I wonder why the defaults come from under project.clj rather than being merged over it.
21:58	drusellers	callen: excellent
21:59	drusellers	sdegutis: thank you as well
21:59	xeqi	sdegutis: can you explain the orientation metaphor
22:00	sdegutis	xeqi: Actually, never mind it. It might not make sense.
22:16	akurilin	Assuming MVC, how do people generally organize nested routes? Do you make a separate controller for those, or do you stuff everything in the parent controller?
22:17	callen	akurilin: define nested? I use (context ...) when there's a route prefix.
22:18	sdegutis	akurilin: I don't do MVC. I do FI.
22:18	akurilin	as in users/favorites or something like that
22:18	sdegutis	Where I = Interface, usually HTTP, and F = Feature, i.e. my own personal code.
22:18	callen	akurilin: so you have multiple things under "users/*"?
22:18	callen	akurilin: if that's in fact what you mean, then what I said applies. route prefix.
22:19	callen	use context in this case.
22:19	callen	if not, please elaborate.
22:21	akurilin	callen, right, I want both /users and /users/favorites to be valid resources, which I assume is possible in compojure. Sounds like context is the way to go.
22:21	callen	akurilin: yes it is.
22:25	akurilin	There seems to be an interesting trade-off where if you let each "controller" define its own routes, you now can only find out a subroute exists by looking at that individual controller.
22:25	akurilin	As opposed to having one centralized place where all the routes are defined. Which is possible, but now you have to reference each controller's functions from there.
22:26	akurilin	The latter approach is actually tempting. Define something like routes.clj and have everything in there for the entire web all.
22:26	callen	akurilin: you probably want to centralize the routes. It makes reorganization and seeing where things live easier. It's also more idiomatic to Compojure.
22:26	akurilin	*app
22:26	callen	I usually do my routes per-file at the bottom, but that can work too.
22:28	akurilin	callen, that's what I do now as well, and my point is that it looks like that'd make existence of nested routes tricky to spot.
22:28	coventry`	The form defining clojure.core/clojure-version fails when you run it under clojure.tools.trace/trace-forms with a complaint that it find "baseLoader". Why is this? https://www.refheap.com/18486
22:28	coventry`	"it can't find "baseLoader""
22:28	akurilin	my refactoring todos list grows at a much higher rate than the items get checked off :\|
22:29	callen	akurilin: are you relatively new to Clojure and Clojure web projects?
22:29	akurilin	callen, For sure.
22:29	callen	If so, that's pretty normal.
22:30	callen	There aren't any prescriptive frameworks in popular use with Clojure (Pedestal doesn't count and new people shouldn't be using it), so people learn the idioms the hard way.
22:30	callen	The book by yogthos should address some of that.
22:30	akurilin	callen, it's on the reading list for sure, I'm all about cherry picking
22:30	callen	as thou wilt. Just mentioning.
22:31	callen	akurilin: we need to grab a meal sometime.
22:31	akurilin	callen, would love to.
22:31	callen	I'm sick at the moment, but assuming I don't actually perish, I could do something later this week.
22:32	akurilin	callen, tuesdays and thursdays are usually busy, but other than that I'm sure I'm a few blocks away from you. 9th and Market.
22:33	callen	akurilin: you see my PM?
22:42	ghena1986	http://bit.ly/183GBEv
22:43	akurilin	What are people's thoughts on the Stack Exchange API? I'm tempted to use it as reference for my own Compojuring. http://api.stackexchange.com/docs
22:43	akurilin	Would be nice to have someone confirm that it's a good role model.
23:09	callen	akurilin: looks reasonable.
23:20	coventry`	This is interesting. You have to parse-and-eval forms one at a time. You can't batch up the parses for evaluation, because of the reader evaluation. ##(do (defrecord mrk [b]) #user.mrk{:b 1})
23:21	coventry`	Oh, is lazybot dead again?
23:21	coventry`	,(do (defrecord mrk [b]) #user.mrk{:b 1})
23:21	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Record construction syntax can only be used when read-eval == true>
23:21	muhoo	i played around with bishop, used in a project, but now wonder if it's just too much incidental complexity
23:21	muhoo	REST in general feels that way to me sometimes, like it's forced.
23:24	coventry`	Does clojure have a better way to de-chunkify lazy seqs than fogus described in <http://blog.fogus.me/2010/01/22/de-chunkifying-sequences-in-clojure/>, these days?
23:25	sdegutis	Wow. It just hit me that Clojure is actually a serious competitor to Java now for many many tasks.
23:26	egghead	sdegutis: if you ignore the adoption curve
23:27	amalloy	coventry`: i wouldn't use fogus's approach - it's slightly more performant than, say, (defn unchunk [coll] (lazy-seq (when-first [x coll] (cons x (unchunk (rest coll)))))) but a lot less readable
23:27	sdegutis	egghead: I'm only talking technically.
23:28	sdegutis	It's not just some makeshift duct-taped thing strapped on top of Java. It's legit.
23:28	egghead	sdegutis: technically I'd say it's already beaten java, at least in feature set & expressiveness
23:28	sdegutis	egghead: Yeah, for most apps that I can think of, I'd use Clojure over Java.
23:29	callen	muhoo: I straddle the line between REST and RPC in most of my apps.
23:29	callen	muhoo: I'm generally not comfortable with REST APIs in terms of how they express and communicate state.
23:31	coventry`	amalloy: Thanks, that's great.
23:34	Sorella	Hello, people. I'm writing a CLI that may use different templates, which are in turn represented as folders. These folders are located in the same directory as the JAR file. I need to copy one of those folders to the current-working-directory, what's the best way to do this? Is there a function/binding that tells me where the JAR is running from so I can get a path to the resources?
23:34	coventry`	I should start looking in useful for these kinds of things.
23:35	justin_smith	Sorella: (io/resource "path/relative/name")
23:35	justin_smith	bonus. that works from inside the dir before making the jar, or from inside the jar after shipping and loading in another project
23:36	justin_smith	clojure.java.io/resource, that is
23:37	Sorella	justin_smith, does that work for resources that are outside of the JAR? I have a directory with `app.jar templates/`.
23:37	justin_smith	it works for anything in classpath / resource path
23:38	clj_newb_2345	besides datomic, is there any database taht supports fast "versioning" ? i.e. I can easily say "I want to run this query -- on waht the datbase looked like 2 commits ago"
23:38	coventry`	What is a unit of code-in-a-file called in clojure? A module? (Coming from python.)
23:39	clj_newb_2345	function ?
23:39	justin_smith	a file? usually one ns per file is the convention
23:39	coventry`	I guess I can just call this "eval-file". Thanks.
23:39	Sorella	justin_smith, oh, awesome. Thanks :)
23:43	justin_smith	coventry`: http://clojure.org/compilation says that each file, each fn, and each gen-class will produce a class file
23:44	ddellacosta	hmm, just loading timestamps via cljs.reader in IE8 makes it barf? Anyone know a better way to handle this? I get "timestamp month field must be in range 1..12 1<=0<=1…"
23:44	ddellacosta	*#@$! IE8
23:52	callen	ddellacosta: inst?
23:53	ddellacosta	callen: sorry, what about it? I'm using it, if that's what you're asking. There's just something weird going on with cljs.reader, inst, and IE8. I'm going to track it down and file a bug report, if appropriate
23:53	callen	ddellacosta: test on Himera?
23:54	ddellacosta	callen: yah, one sec
23:54	ddellacosta	good idea
23:57	zanes	callen: Can you say more about your discomfort with REST and how it expresses and communicates state?