#clojure – 2013-09-04

2013-09-04

00:04	callen	seangrove: gads that was ages ago. Irish pub on Clement by Laurel Heights.
00:30	futile	hey isnt someone in here a literature nerd?
00:31	futile	i just read The Raven to the kids and it was fantastic and im lookin for recommendations of similar short poems to read to them
00:39	Xorlev	futile: Anything by Shel Silverstein. I'm also a fan of "Poetry 180", a compendium by Billy Collins who himself is a very accomplished poet.
00:41	brainproxy	futile: I like Hopkins
00:42	brainproxy	there was a little collection of some of his poems, "Immortal Diamond"
00:43	futile	btw what i loved mostly about the raven was all the alliterations and rhyming and perfect timing
00:44	brainproxy	probably Hopkins most famous short poem: http://www.potw.org/archive/potw29.html
00:45	brainproxy	"Spring and Fall"
00:45	brainproxy	for something more epic, Chesterton's "The Ballad of the White Horse" might fit the bill
00:45	brainproxy	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ballad_of_the_White_Horse
00:46	brainproxy	https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ballad_of_the_White_Horse
00:46	futile	chesty!
00:47	futile	oh man i didnt know he was a poet too, thought he was just a catholic hero
00:47	brainproxy	quite the poet
00:49	brainproxy	his novel "A Man Who Was Thursday" is lesser read but is a real classic imo
00:49	futile	LOL: "The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected."
00:49	brainproxy	*The Man...
00:49	futile	brainproxy: thanks for this ill have to check him out more thoroughly :)
00:50	brainproxy	np
00:50	futile	i think he was one of the people who convinced me that you dont have to sacrifice intellectual integrity to believe in catholicism
00:50	futile	<3
00:51	technomancy	a "lesser read"???
00:51	lazybot	technomancy: Oh, absolutely.
00:51	technomancy	bollocks
00:55	futile	technomancy: you can only say that if you lived in UK for > 80% of your life
00:56	technomancy	I grew up in the commonwealth; leave me alone =P
00:56	futile	hey i dont make the rules
00:57	futile	(inc brainproxy)
00:57	lazybot	⇒ 2
00:59	brainproxy	what is wrong with "lesser read" (I'm a yank btw)
01:01	technomancy	I think Thursday is his best work
01:01	futile	welp, time to eat cookies and try to make progress in this immutable recursive descent Clojure parser.
01:02	futile	technomancy: depends what he meant by "lesser read", could very well mean less popular
01:02	amalloy	futile: is there a reason you aren't just using something already built? there are some excellent parsers in clojure
01:02	brainproxy	fair enough; most people I've met that have even heard of Chesterton have read "Orthodoxy" or his biography of Francis, the Father Brown novels, etc.
01:02	amalloy	eg, instaparse arrived on the scene to great fanfare a couple months ago, and looks great
01:02	seabre	parsatron is pretty cool
01:03	brainproxy	I've met few that have read Thursday, but that may be Americans
01:03	futile	amalloy: well part of it is that its a learning experience
01:03	futile	amalloy: thats probably a big part. another part is that i want to preserve source locations for each token and i didnt think any existing ones do it fully.
01:06	futile	amalloy_: and thirdly learning another parser lib seems like it might be just as difficult as writing a clojure parser
01:07	brehaut	futile: do you know BNF? you know instaparse
01:07	futile	i do not
01:07	futile	not well enough to write it reliably
01:09	technomancy	brainproxy: oh, I interpreted "read" as a noun rather than a verb
01:09	technomancy	which is I guess what futile said
01:09	technomancy	as you were
01:09	futile	technomancy: no i also interpreted it as a noun
01:10	futile	technomancy: i still thought "a lesser read" could regard the "popularity" attribute rather than "quality"
01:10	futile	thats how i interpreted it.
01:18	callen	brehaut: Instaparse is maaaaaaaagic
01:18	callen	<3
01:19	futile	is instaparse self-hosting yet?
01:19	callen	futile: you'd probably learn more from learning an existing parser through-and-through than you would writing a recursive descent parser.
01:19	callen	the old saw about recursive descent parsers was that those were the lines simple enough to be written in sharpie on the side of a 2 liter coke bottle.
01:20	callen	those were the parsers*
01:21	futile	callen: i wrote a simple lisp parser in C once successfully
01:21	futile	i just think it was really badly done and i want to learn how to do it smarter.
01:21	futile	so im reading about it
01:22	brehaut	futile: https://github.com/brehaut/inc-clojure-brush/blob/master/shBrushClojure.js#L64-L385
01:23	futile	brehaut: thats similar to what i had before, but now i want to do it in idiomatic clojure
01:23	brehaut	idiomatic clojure would be dont write a recursive decent parser by hand when there are good tools already in existence ;)
01:24	futile	i came up with this trick to emulate "read" and "peek"... (partition 2 1 [:end] string)
01:34	seabre	I can't read "came up with this trick" without thinking about this and its variations: http://www.oneweirdkerneltrick.com/paperfigs/vapnik.jpg
01:34	seabre	Thanks internet.
01:37	futile	seabre: parsers hate me!
01:38	seabre	lol
01:38	futile	become a parent in 280 days with this one weird trick
01:39	futile	aw its not on knowyourmeme
02:13	futile	going unconscious for few hours
02:14	Raynes	Where will you be when the LSD hits?
02:15	Raynes	http://imgur.com/r/funny/Fr3V0St
03:42	hhenkel_	Good morning everyone, what is the best way to check a string for a substring or regex?
03:44	fredyr	,(.contains "coool" "ool")
03:44	clojurebot	true
03:45	hhenkel_	fredyr: oh, that's easy...I was thinking about much more complicated stuff...thanks!
03:45	fredyr	:)
03:47	hhenkel_	fredyr: Is that also usable with a regex?
03:47	fredyr	(.matches "ceaol" "c[aeo]{3}l")
03:47	fredyr	you'll have to use matches then
03:47	fredyr	,(.matches "ceaol" "c[aeo]{3}l")
03:47	clojurebot	true
03:48	hhenkel_	fredyr: ah, okay. Thanks again!
03:48	fredyr	sure np
03:50	fredyr	the java String docs is useful for these things btw
03:50	fredyr	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/String.html
03:51	hhenkel_	fredyr: another question regarding "matches", you're not using #" " syntax there for regex. is that because it is a java function.
03:53	hhenkel_	Oh, i meant ? not . at the end of the sentence... ;)
03:53	fredyr	yes the String api takes strings for regexes and not java.util.regex.Pattern
03:56	hhenkel_	okay
03:58	fredyr	the Patterns are great when you want to take apart a string
03:58	shaungilchrist	what is state of the art for cljs pprint?
04:00	fredyr	,(let [[a b c d] (re-matches #"(c)([aeo]{3})(l)" "coool")] [a b c d])
04:00	clojurebot	["coool" "c" "ooo" "l"]
04:04	sheldonh	g'damn! clojure's map applies over multiple collections. hot
04:15	ambrosebs_	bbloom: check the mailing list...
04:52	sheldonh	is there a core function that does (partial apply concat)?
05:08	ddellacosta	sheldonh: just coming to Clojure?
05:08	ddellacosta	oh, I guess you wrote that like an hour ago, d'oh
05:08	ucb	heh
05:08	ddellacosta	haha
05:09	ucb	I actually read sheldonh's comment as hash-maps being applicable to multiple collections :(
05:14	sheldonh	ddellacosta: yup :)
05:15	ddellacosta	sheldonh: all I wanted to say was, I expect you'll have a lot of those "hot!" moments from now on. ;-)
05:15	ucb	does nrepl support who-calls?
05:15	ddellacosta	ucb: I didn't think of that...
05:15	ucb	nrepl.el even
05:15	ddellacosta	ucb: sorry, what's who-calls?
05:16	ucb	ddellacosta: I have a history for misreading things
05:16	ddellacosta	ucb: haha, I do too, so don't feel bad.
05:16	ucb	ddellacosta: say you're looking at the definition of a function, you want to know where it's used, i.e. who-calls the fn?
05:16	ddellacosta	ucb: pooh, gotcha. Yeah, I dunno, sorry. But that sounds pretty freaking handy.
05:16	ddellacosta	pooh = oooh on spellcheck
05:16	ucb	that's because it is :)
05:17	ucb	heh
05:17	ddellacosta	hahaha
05:17	ucb	my phone's spellchecker corrected hope to hippie
05:17	ddellacosta	nice
05:17	ddellacosta	something poetic about that one
05:17	ucb	ended up telling my friend "hippie you can come"
05:17	ddellacosta	hahahaha, seriously, just laughed out loud at that
05:17	ddellacosta	good thing I had nothing in my mouth
05:17	ucb	I laughed too
05:17	ucb	he never texted back
05:17	ddellacosta	ucb: hahahahahahaha
05:17	ucb	so there goes another relationship ruined by technology
05:18	ddellacosta	ucb: he's lost
05:18	ddellacosta	hahaha
05:18	ucb	heh
05:18	ddellacosta	brilliant
05:20	fredyr	:)
05:20	clgv	can I query attributes of nested maps in monger?
05:25	NeedMoreDesu	I use http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9694754/clojure-how-to-get-the-path-of-a-running-jar-root-source-directory rplevy's solution and have problems with whitespaces. What can I do?
05:27	ddellacosta	NeedMoreDesu: what do you mean, problems with whitespaces?
05:28	NeedMoreDesu	%20 in their places
05:29	ddellacosta	NeedMoreDesu: still confused. %20 is where?
05:30	NeedMoreDesu	#<URL file:/D:/folder1/folder2/new%20folder/xxx-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone.jar>
05:31	NeedMoreDesu	It's "new folder"
05:31	ddellacosta	NeedMoreDesu: okay, so, you need that as a string with spaces replacing the %20?
05:32	NeedMoreDesu	Hmmm.. solving problem so directly? Never thoght about that lol.
05:33	ddellacosta	,(java.net.URLDecoder/decode "new%20folder")
05:33	clojurebot	"new folder"
05:33	ddellacosta	…for example. Still not sure exactly if that does what you need, but it's the simple answer as to how to get those %20s (and anything else URL encoded) out of the string.
05:34	ddellacosta	NeedMoreDesu: are you in Japan, btw, or is your handle unrelated to Japanese?
05:35	hhenkel_	How would one change values of a vector? Situation is, I got a ref to a map and within that map I got a vector. Now I'm checking if the values matching a specific regex and if it does, I want to change the value.
05:35	NeedMoreDesu	ddellacosta: might be related, since I have japanese locale.
05:35	hhenkel_	I tried the following, but assoc seems to be the wrong thing: (let [bla ["${actions.FreePhysicalMemorySize}" "${actions.FreeSwapSpaceSize}" "${actions.TotalPhysicalMemorySize}"]] (doseq [x bla] (if (.matches x "^\\$\\{.*\\}") (let [tmp-atom (atom x)] (swap! tmp-atom assoc tmp-atom "blabla")))))
05:36	ddellacosta	NeedMoreDesu: just curious, since I'm in Japan. Always interested to hear if there are an folks in Japan using Clojure.
05:36	hhenkel_	What would be the best solution for that?
05:36	ddellacosta	hhenkel_: please use refheap, do not paste code into IRC
05:36	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel_: (if (.matches x #"...") blabla x)
05:37	ddellacosta	hhenkel_: also, don't know why you need an atom for that, just use loop and recur
05:37	NeedMoreDesu	ddellacosta: Sorry, I'm not from japan, just used it to avoid crash problems in some jp games >_>
05:37	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel_: together with map: (map #(if (= "foo" %) "bar" %) ["some" "foo" "bar" "baz"])
05:37	ddellacosta	NeedMoreDesu: ah, okay...haha
05:37	hhenkel_	ordnungswidrig: ? I learned earlier on that this is a java function and therefore string regex are used. This part works.
05:38	Anderkent	NeedMoreDesu: what are you planning to do with the url? the path is right for a folder with spaces in it, it's how spaces are encoded for urls
05:38	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel_: you want to update some values in a list, right?
05:38	hhenkel_	ddellacosta: Thouht if I want to make a persistent change to a list I need a atom or ref, don't i?
05:39	hhenkel_	ordnungswidrig: yes.
05:39	ddellacosta	hhenkel_: sure, but if you are doing it inside a doseq it defeats the purpose
05:39	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel_: the most easy is to use map, like above, you can then use update-in to update a list which is a map vaue.
05:39	Anderkent	NeedMoreDesu: if you want to get a filesystem path from that, do (.getAbsolutePath (File. my-url)) for example
05:39	NeedMoreDesu	Anderkent: I used it as input to clojure.java.io/file. ddellacosta's solution works.
05:40	Anderkent	you can just pass it to file without modifying it
05:40	sheldonh	ddellacosta: fortunately, i dipped into haskell last year, so it's not completely overwhelming. someone here recommended 4clojure.com, which i've been enjoying enormously
05:40	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
05:40	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel_: i'll put together an example, wait a minute
05:40	ddellacosta	sheldonh: I love 4clojure, I gotta get back to it myself. Welcome! I need to get into Haskell myself, now that you mention it...
05:40	hhenkel_	ordnungswidrig: okay, thanks. my ? was regarding the (.matches ...) as that part works for me.
05:41	sheldonh	ddellacosta: it's not a great first functional language, imho, because you have to absorb functional programming and algebraic types all at once. but with clojure under your belt, i bet you'll have a lot of fun with haskell :)
05:41	clgv	hhenkel_: there is `re-matches` to get rid of the unnecessary interop
05:42	ddellacosta	sheldonh: ah, good to know. Yeah, I've heard it's kind of a major mind bender. Looking forward to learning more.
05:42	NeedMoreDesu	hhenkel_: you change values of a vector with assoc, just like maps.
05:42	NeedMoreDesu	assoc, get, update-in works
05:42	hhenkel_	clgv: okay, fredyr pointed me to .matches earlier on.
05:43	clgv	hhenkel_: for basic takss look for a clojure function first ;)
05:43	clgv	*tasks
05:43	ordnungswidrig	https://www.refheap.com/18292
05:43	hhenkel_	clgv: I had much more complicated stuff in mind, so that was allready a good thing... ;)
05:44	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel_: saw that link?
05:44	clgv	hhenkel_: the matches is likely to be slow if used very often because the compiler does not know that `x` is a string. the clojure function avoids this for you
05:45	clgv	the `(.matches ...)`
05:45	sheldonh	ddellacosta: advice from my limited haskell experience: stop at least 2 hours before bed time :)
05:45	amalloy	there's really no reason to use .matches and an ugly double-escaped string instead of re-matches and a regex literal
05:45	hhenkel_	ordnungswidrig: Yes, thanks. I think it takes me some time till I totaly understand what going on. Thank you!
05:45	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel_: more ideomatic would be https://www.refheap.com/18293
05:46	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel_: decompose your problem!
05:47	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel_: 1.) define a function that replaces the regexed-matches. 2.) define a function that maps this function over the vector 3.) apply this second function on the map value using update-in
05:48	hhenkel_	ordnungswidrig: Divide and conquer...I'll try but currently I'm fighting with the missing knowledge vocabular.
05:48	clgv	hhenkel_: do you want to build a templating system? if so, you should know there are already several libs for that
05:48	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel_: we're here to help
05:49	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel_: you need to understand, that you cannot update a list or vector. You will always be returned a new instance.
05:50	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel_: to be honest, there are ways for in-place modification but these should be reserved for performance sensitive application
05:50	ddellacosta	sheldonh: point taken!
05:50	hhenkel_	clgv: Nope, I'm trying to learn clojure and what I'm trying to do is 1) read an edn, 2) look at all values of the config I read if they are like "${firstpart.secondpart} 3) go to {"firstpart{ "secondpart" "test"} and get the value test and insert it instead of the "variable".
05:50	clgv	ordnungswidrig: well phrased like that you cannot update any immutable data structure ;)
05:51	ordnungswidrig	clgv: huh, I first read "immortal".
05:51	clgv	haha
05:52	hhenkel_	ordnungswidrig: I'll try to find my way around the immutible data structures but I'm spoiled by oop... ;)
05:52	clgv	ordnungswidrig: I think you meant that you cannot update lists efficiently meaning in constant time.
05:52	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
05:52	hhenkel_	I'm off for lunch. Read you later.
05:52	clgv	*elements in lists I wanted to say
05:52	ordnungswidrig	clgv: you cannot?
05:53	clgv	except from the first element ok ;)
05:53	Apage43	I get to spend this week implementing mutable data structures that will be hit from multiple threads, in C++. I am not excited.
05:53	hyPiRion	Apage43: oh dear
05:54	clgv	Apage43: is there nothing in boost for that?
05:54	hyPiRion	Apage43: For hash maps, do the HAMT/Concurrent tries from Bagwell, http://skillsmatter.com/podcast/scala/parallel-algorithms-data-structures
05:55	Apage43	The guy here needs to be an ordered map of some sort
05:57	hyPiRion	oh dear =/
05:57	hyPiRion	It's possible with the HAMTs, but it's a bit of thinking I think.
05:58	Apage43	If I could manage both figuring that and grokking how to do this well with no GC, it'd really be perfect, since one of the things we want is to be able to get a snapshot of the thing.
06:00	hyPiRion	Oh, then the concurrent tries are a great fit. But the GCing is a bit iffy, yes.
06:00	hyPiRion	Apage43: A single week only? =/
06:01	Apage43	possibly more =P
06:01	Apage43	(realistically more)
06:01	Apage43	but the made up number is a week
06:25	ddellacosta	what does the double-dot function do in clojurescript?
06:25	ddellacosta	(.. something fn1 fn2) ?
06:26	ddellacosta	it seems a bit like doto or -> but not sure exactly what is going on
06:26	ddellacosta	can't find it in docs
06:26	hyPiRion	ddellacosta: macroexpand it
06:27	hyPiRion	,(macroexpand-1 '(.. something f1 f2))
06:27	clojurebot	(.. (. something f1) f2)
06:27	hyPiRion	,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(.. something f1 f2))
06:27	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
06:27	ddellacosta	hyPiRion: um, can I do that with CLJS?
06:27	hyPiRion	ddellacosta: I will guess the macro also exists in cljs
06:28	hyPiRion	it's just a chaining of .call functions
06:28	ddellacosta	…is it in Clojure too? only ever seen it in CLJS
06:28	ddellacosta	oh well, look at that
06:28	ddellacosta	nevermind.
06:29	ddellacosta	hyPiRion: I guess I don't see why you'd use this over ->
06:29	clgv	yes it is. pretty useful :D
06:29	ddellacosta	hyPiRion: I guess it's more concise if you are doing java interop
06:29	hyPiRion	yeah
06:29	ddellacosta	well then, I learned me somethin' new. Thanks hyPiRion.
06:30	hyPiRion	np
06:31	hyPiRion	,(.. "string" (substring 2) (equals "ring"))
06:31	clojurebot	true
06:42	hhenkel_	ordnungswidrig: regarding the immutability. What would you suggest then when I read a edn file as a config and want to manipulate the config? I thought of having a ref to the config...
06:43	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel_: what does manipulate mean? do you need to change once (after reading) or again and again?
06:43	hhenkel	ordnungswidrig: once after I read the config from file I want to make some kind of "variable substitution".
06:44	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel: then you build a function that returns the data substituted
06:45	clgv	is there already a lib implementing a query language similar to the stuff for DOMs for nested clojure data structures?
06:46	ordnungswidrig	clgv: get-in?
06:47	clgv	ordnungswidrig: no that is only map/vector access.
06:48	hhenkel	ordnungswidrig: okay, so I build a function returning the altered data and assign it to a new binding? Or I read the config in a function and also alter it there and use that to initially bind the data to a name?
06:48	ordnungswidrig	I would simple bind the final result like that (def config (substitute-all-the-vars (read-config-from-file "config.edn")))
06:49	hhenkel	ordnungswidrig: hmm, okay that sounds reasonable...I find it really hard to switch my thinking on how to implement stuff.
06:50	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel: once you switched it will be even harder to look back. :)
06:52	hhenkel	ordnungswidrig: It allready starts, currently I have to teach python to one of my coworkers.... :(
07:01	hhenkel	ordnungswidrig: one final question regarding the code you provided. In the example you know where ("[:a]") to alter the text. In my situation I have to loop through the whole map ("tree") to find the values that I want to alter. Is there also a nicer way to do it?
07:03	ordnungswidrig	hhenkel: you need up changes multiple keys?
07:04	clgv	hhenkel: if it is a map-tree you can use clojure.walk but be careful with metadata
07:04	ordnungswidrig	there is also fmap in the ns algo.generic
07:04	hhenkel	ordnungswidrig: yes, as it is a "user" provided config there maybe the chance that more "variables" need to be altered.
07:06	ordnungswidrig	,(clojure.algo.generic.functor/fmap inc {:a 1 :b 2})
07:06	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.algo.generic.functor>
07:11	hhenkel	clgv: Looking at the description at clojure docs I don't understand how to enhance the example with the multiply 10 so that it works with a "tree"
07:14	clgv	hhenkel: dont know how your "tree"s are defined
07:18	hhenkel	clgv: more or less like this: { :hosts { :host1 { :protocol "http" :port 9101 :actions [ "action1" "${actions.action2}" ]}}}
07:18	clgv	hhenkel: and you want to replace only leaf-nodes?
07:19	hhenkel	My current assumption is that only values could contain "variables" to make life easier.
07:19	hhenkel	But in theory it could also be possible to have keys that need to be replaced.
07:22	clgv	hhenkel: well clojure (pre/post)walk will walk all clojure collecions so these are inner nodes and all non-collections (say "atoms") are leafs
07:23	clgv	hhenkel: prewalk calls the given function before walking the children, postwalk does so after.
07:26	Anderkent	clgv: you mean clojure.walk/walk? I don't think that goes into maps
07:26	clgv	Anderkent: it does
07:26	Anderkent	,(clojure.walk/walk #(do (println %) (if (= % "$foo") "bar" %)) #(do %) {:a {:b "$foo"} :c {:d :f}})
07:26	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
07:26	Anderkent	blah
07:26	clgv	&(use 'clojure.walk)
07:26	lazybot	⇒ nil
07:26	Anderkent	,(clojure.walk/walk #(do (println %) (if (= % "$foo") "bar" %)) #(do %) {:a {:b "$foo"} :c {:d :f}})
07:26	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
07:26	Anderkent	,(use 'clojure.walk)
07:26	clojurebot	nil
07:26	Anderkent	,(clojure.walk/walk #(do (println %) (if (= % "$foo") "bar" %)) #(do %) {:a {:b "$foo"} :c {:d :f}})
07:26	clojurebot	[:a {:b $foo}]\n[:c {:d :f}]\n{:a {:b "$foo"}, :c {:d :f}}
07:27	Anderkent	walk is for sexps afaik
07:27	clgv	&(postwalk (fn [x] (if (integer? x) (inc x) x)) {:a {:b 1}})
07:27	lazybot	⇒ {:a {:b 2}}
07:27	clgv	Anderkent: there you go ^^
07:28	Anderkent	ah, I see. So the inner given to walk should recurse, I suppose
07:28	Anderkent	,(clojure.walk/postwalk-replace {"$foo" "bar" :c :notc} {:a {:b "$foo"} :c {:d :f}})
07:28	clojurebot	{:a {:b "bar"}, :notc {:d :f}}
07:29	Anderkent	cool
07:29	hhenkel	clgv: so, prewalk executes before it traverses and postwalk first traverses and then executes?
07:30	clgv	hhenkel: sounds about right, yes
07:31	Anderkent	also look at how ugly walk is because of this stupid idea that emptying a MapEntry gives nil.
07:31	clgv	&(pewalk (fn [x] (if (instance? clojure.lang.MapEntry x) (when (integer? (val x)) x) x)) {:a {:b 1 :c "bla"}})
07:31	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: pewalk in this context
07:31	clgv	&(prewalk (fn [x] (if (instance? clojure.lang.MapEntry x) (when (integer? (val x)) x) x)) {:a {:b 1 :c "bla"}})
07:31	lazybot	⇒ {}
07:32	clgv	&(prewalk (fn [x] (if (instance? clojure.lang.MapEntry x) (when (or (map? x) (integer? (val x))) x) x)) {:a {:b 1 :c "bla"}})
07:32	lazybot	⇒ {}
07:32	clgv	ok nvm
07:33	clgv	&(prewalk (fn [x] (if (instance? clojure.lang.MapEntry x) (when (or (map? (val x)) (integer? (val x))) x) x)) {:a {:b 1 :c "bla"}})
07:33	lazybot	⇒ {:a {:b 1}}
07:45	sheldonh	when you use defn in 4clojure, it says "You tripped the alarm! def is bad!" i have been assuming that it means "def is bad in 4clojure". yes?
07:46	Anderkent	sheldonh: yes, sandboxed environments dont let you def stuff
07:46	Anderkent	,(def bad-boy 1)
07:46	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
07:46	sheldonh	thanks :)
07:49	clgv	Anderkent: not necessarily, you can setup your sandboy with clojail allowing `def` and just cleaning up all namespaces every 10mins or so
07:50	clgv	*sandbox
07:50	clgv	Anderkent: would be really useful. but both clojurebots mistrust us too much to do that ;)
07:51	sheldonh	you server, your rules ;)
07:55	clgv	sheldonh: btw. 4clojure literally copies your code at the position of the __
08:01	sheldonh	clgv: three cheers for referential transparency :)
08:02	sheldonh	destructuring lazy, infinite sequences. hohoho!
08:12	sheldonh	it'll be very interesting coming back to my first round of 4clojure solutions, armed with the learning from same
08:17	clgv	no clojure 1.5 on 4clojure :(
08:22	borkdude	Is it possible to enforce a constraint on a string field in Datomic, to be always lowercase?
08:24	clgv	borkdude: are there any constraints for attribute values possible?
08:24	borkdude	clgv don't know, this is what I'm asking I guess :)
08:25	clgv	borkdude: well, if it were than the had to be part of the schema right?
08:25	augustl	borkdude: no, you need to wrap datomic to handle that
08:25	augustl	the datomic peer lib compares more to the raw mysql lib than an actual "useful" data storage lib :)
08:26	augustl	I hope they add validation tx functions at some point though, not just fact creation tx functions
08:27	clgv	augustl: since you seem to have some datomic value let me ask the following question: when exactly do transactions in datomic fail?
08:27	augustl	you can throw exceptions in your own tx functions. There is also some validation in place. I'm not sure if it's all explicitly documented.
08:28	augustl	but if you refer to a symbol/attribute that doesn't exist you'll get an error, and so on
08:28	ro_st	is there a variant of group-by that removes the key from the seq?
08:29	clgv	augustl: ok I meant failure for trying to commit confliciting changes to the same entity for example
08:30	augustl	clgv: there's not a lot of conflict that can happen :)
08:30	augustl	in more recent versions you'll get a failure if you transact in a fact that matches the existing fact (i.e. set the username to what the username already is set to)
08:31	clgv	augustl: hmm. so if to peers hammer at the same attribute with entirely different values I have different points in the db history where the value was correct for one of them
08:31	clgv	*two peers
08:32	augustl	clgv: the transactor gets to decide which one wins, since writes are single threaded
08:32	clgv	or does a transaction fail when I try to update an entity based on the db at time point 1 and the db already is at timepoint 5?
08:33	augustl	what you describe is optimistic locking - you'd nede to implement that yourself (I've done it for one of my systems once)
08:34	clgv	hmm well I think I need a better description how the transactions work in datomic. one video and the webpage were not sufficient it seems
08:34	augustl	a tx consists of the facts only, datomic doesn't care about the state of the peer that created it
08:34	augustl	clgv: in short, it's a single queue of transactions that gets processed one at a time
08:35	augustl	this is the only way to guarantee 100% consistency
08:35	clgv	yeah so much I know.
08:35	ro_st	you can write functions that run inside your tx which can query into the database as it is during that tx, and you can throw exceptions if they don't like what they see
08:36	augustl	clgv: my Datomic knowledge is accreted through #datomic, various videos, blog posts, and having talked to Rich Hickey at a conference once :)
08:36	clgv	so the commiters need to make sure that they do not post conflicting facts?
08:36	augustl	clgv: "conflicting facts" - what do you mean by that?
08:36	clgv	augustl: in a logic sense of the problem domain of the facts.
08:36	ro_st	clgv: you can always go back in time to see what the facts were in the past
08:37	augustl	the only conflict I'm aware of is that you transacton contains a fact that matches the existing fact
08:37	augustl	anything else is just written
08:37	clgv	ro_st: yes but that wont help if most of the time two peers write conflicting facts such that the problem model in the db is rubbish
08:37	augustl	so the conflict is in your interpretation of the data, not in datomic itself?
08:38	clgv	yes
08:38	ro_st	clgv: unless you had transactor functions that checked your problem model prior to commit
08:38	augustl	also keep in mind that a transaction is fully atomic. You won't see some values from one transaction and other values from another
08:38	ro_st	you can give your transactor process extra jars in its class path if you need to call out to domain logic
08:38	clgv	e.g. you calculate the average of a set of numbers and then someone change this set of numbers right before your commit
08:38	augustl	(assuming you have two transactions for the same attributes and the same entities, but setting different values)
08:38	augustl	clgv: that you would have to do in a transactoin function to be able to have it consistent
08:39	ro_st	if you really, really wanted to, you could validate your whole problem model / database inside every transaction
08:39	clgv	augustl: so for large calculation you would have a compare and swap function as transactor function or similar?
08:39	ro_st	nothing stopping you from doing that. it'll make transactions much slower to process, of course, but you would always have a consistent model
08:40	ro_st	if your checks are inside a transactor function, the data can not change until that transaction completes or errors out. transactor is serial. one at a time
08:40	augustl	clgv: the transaction function is pure. It gets the database as of the point right before that transaction (single threaded so it's 100% consistent) then you query that database, compute your value, and from the tx function return your transaction, such as [[:db/add the-entity-id :the-attr computed-value]]
08:41	augustl	in addition to the db it gets passed any arguments, so if you in a peer do [:my-fn 123] you'll get the db and 123 passed to the tx fn my-fn
08:41	augustl	see: stored procedures ;)
08:42	clgv	augustl: ah ok interesting. thank you :D
08:42	augustl	..which is why datomic is probably not a good fit if you need a lot of writes and this computation takes a long time
08:42	clgv	augustl: that means stored procedures are used more often than in sql databases?
08:43	augustl	clgv: yeah. You can't do chatty client-side transactions with datomic
08:43	ro_st	you'd only want to use transactor functions when you need consistency. otherwise, do your work in the peers
08:44	augustl	only transaction functions with isolation level 9000 :)
08:45	augustl	an alternative is to do something like reading the db as of now, which is immutable and "consistent", compute the compound value somewhere, and store it in a different database than datomic
08:45	augustl	or perhaps use a cache instead of storing it normalized in the db
08:46	clgv	augustl: datomic stores `many`-relation attributes as sets right? so I can not have duplicate values in there?
08:47	ro_st	you can have multiple entities with the same value on a given attribute, and then relate those entities as a set
08:48	ro_st	eg a group entity with 3 user entities all with the :name "Mike"
08:48	clgv	ok let me rephrase: I need to get multiple values that are equal for that attribute for the following calculations
08:48	clgv	is :db.cardinality/many only possible for :db.type/ref?
08:49	augustl	clgv: you can have cardinality/many for any attribute
08:49	ro_st	it's totally possible for any of the types you can use
08:49	clgv	I want an attribute with :db.type/double and :db.cardinality/many
08:49	augustl	I'm not actually sure about how equality is determined. I would guess the same as Clojure sets
08:49	clgv	augustl: that would be a problem
08:51	augustl	clgv: you could always use entities, of course, and store the doubles as attributes on that entity
08:52	clgv	with size explosion :/
08:53	ro_st	entities are basically just longs, clgv
08:54	clgv	ro_st: that means I double the size per double value...
08:55	ro_st	way more than double the size
08:55	ro_st	datomic stores each datom at least 3 times. and each datom is four scalar values
08:56	augustl	clgv: keep in mind that entities are not stored in Datomic. Entities are just derived from the facts in the index
08:57	augustl	which is why you get an emity entity instead of nil when you do (datomic.api/entity db some-eid-that-does-not-exist)
08:57	augustl	so actually the storage space is pretty much the same :) You just have two facts instead of one - one for the ref, and one for the double value
08:59	clgv	equality semantics are the same as in clojure. so no choice but to store them as byte array :(
09:01	augustl	..or to use an extra entity :)
09:02	clgv	no. that is more complicated than just one call to convert to byte-array and one call to convert back to double-array
09:03	clgv	I dont want to query for the single values anyway.
09:03	augustl	clgv: sure thing, just wanted to be pedantic ref "no choice but to" :)
09:03	clgv	I'd wish all 4 clojure data structures could be plain values
09:05	augustl	would be nice if datomic could store lists and such, but you'd soon get problems with the fact that Datomic doesn't like large values
09:06	clgv	augustl: yeah that should be fixed as well. ;)
10:24	clgv	augustl: 2 seconds per transactions for importing data into datomic seems slow to me. what am I doing wrong
10:24	clgv	?
10:26	augustl	clgv: depends on your transaction and your data
10:26	augustl	what kind of workload are we talking about?
10:27	clgv	augustl: the transaction is a tree of entities summing up to 1,3MB when serialized to bytes
10:27	augustl	sounds about right to me, maybe, perhaps :)
10:27	augustl	I've got little experience with large transactions
10:28	clgv	should I try to put more then one of those entity trees in the transaction?
10:28	augustl	do you have any large attributes? Or is it you I discussed this with in #datomic yesterday? :)
10:28	augustl	s/attributes/single values/
10:28	clgv	I'd have to import for 2 days with that speed
10:29	clgv	augustl: yes that was me. I got rid of the large binary attributes. now all binary attributes are below 20K
10:30	clgv	augustl: I use the recommended setting ratios for 4g RAM for 8g
10:32	augustl	sounds like a job for the people that know what they're talking about. That would be the relevance peeps in #datomic. All I can say is that datomic trades write speed with consistency
10:43	hhenkel	I'm still struggling with postwalk, what do I have to do to get back the altered tree and not nil? https://www.refheap.com/18305
10:47	Anderkent	hhenkel: you must return the unaltered node if your condition doesn't match
10:47	clgv	hhenkel: your else-case has to return something
10:47	Anderkent	right now you're saying 'if it's a string replace test with TEST, otherwise return nil'
10:48	Anderkent	also, never ever make one-armed ifs. If you want nil for the else-clause, use when.
10:51	clgv	hhenkel: https://www.refheap.com/18308
10:58	ddellacosta	what's the inverse of filter?
10:59	clgv	ddellacosta: remove
10:59	ddellacosta	clgv: d'oh, obvious. Many thanks!
10:59	clgv	&(remove odd? (range 10))
10:59	lazybot	⇒ (0 2 4 6 8)
10:59	ddellacosta	lazybot just made a cool guy smiley at me.
10:59	ddellacosta	curse you lazybot!
11:00	Anderkent	(0
11:00	clgv	8)
11:07	hhenkel	clgv: Your code gives me errors, it seems like there is one bracket in the wrong position.
11:07	hhenkel	But I think I got it fixed...now I have to check what you changed...
11:08	hhenkel	Anderkent: okay...I'll try to remember that.
11:08	clgv	I added one `%` and removed the unnecessary `do` - it was supposed to end up in the else branch of your `if`
11:11	hhenkel	clgv: Thanks, it is now working, very good hint that the else is causing the nil, wasn't aware of that.
11:14	noncom	is this an intended behavior of (ns)? : https://www.refheap.com/18311
11:15	noncom	when i got hey/pool and it fully behaves like a namespace inside a namespace, I was surprised
11:15	gfredericks	noncom: I don't think it's a "namespace inside a namespace", it's just a namespace that happens to have a / in its name
11:16	gfredericks	which would probably cause you some trouble but is apparently not checked for
11:16	sandbags	anyone recommend a CSV parsing library? I can see 3 on clojars.org but no details (e.g. api docs) about any of them
11:16	gfredericks	sandbags: data.csv works fine for me
11:17	sandbags	amusingly that is not one of the ones listed by clojars :)
11:17	noncom	gfredericks: why does it create hey/pool and not pool as i have specified?
11:18	gfredericks	noncom: because of how ` works
11:18	sandbags	ah, i see data.csv is at maven
11:18	gfredericks	,`pool
11:18	clojurebot	sandbox/pool
11:18	Anderkent	noncom: because ` namespaces all symbols
11:18	gfredericks	noncom: ^
11:18	sandbags	thanks gfredericks
11:18	gfredericks	sandbags: np
11:18	noncom	ok, how do i make it in the macro not to be prepended there?
11:18	Anderkent	use ' not `
11:18	gfredericks	sandbags: yeah the core libs don't get deployed to clojars
11:18	Anderkent	or do `~'symbol
11:18	sandbags	is data.csv a core lib?
11:18	Anderkent	,`~'pool
11:18	clojurebot	pool
11:18	gfredericks	sandbags: yeah
11:19	sandbags	i'd have expected it to be core.data.csv or somehting
11:19	sandbags	maybe i am missing something about the convention
11:19	gfredericks	Anderkent: `~' is an interesting emoticon
11:19	sandbags	was there some way i could have known it was a core lib?
11:19	noncom	what is the diff between ' and ~' in this case?
11:19	gfredericks	sandbags: the naming convention includes data., java., and maybe some others
11:19	Anderkent	the difference is that with ~' everything else will be properly namespaced, whereas with ' nothing will be namespaced
11:19	clojurebot	Ok.
11:19	sandbags	ah, so it's kind of an informal thing
11:19	sandbags	"learn the prefixes for core"
11:19	gfredericks	:)
11:19	sandbags	ok
11:20	Anderkent	,`(+ 1 ~'nothing)
11:20	clojurebot	(clojure.core/+ 1 nothing)
11:20	sandbags	also am i missing where this stuff is documented?
11:20	Anderkent	,'(+ 1 nothing)
11:20	clojurebot	(+ 1 nothing)
11:20	gfredericks	sandbags: the clojure github page would give you a sense for what exists
11:20	sandbags	or is the documentation "read the source" ?
11:20	gfredericks	sandbags: I don't know of a good resource for contrib libs except for that diaspora page
11:21	sandbags	okay i'm just used to (spoiled maybe) by ruby gems where, typically, the rdoc is published
11:21	gfredericks	$google where did contrib go
11:21	lazybot	[Where Did Clojure.Contrib Go - Clojure Development] http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
11:21	sandbags	so at least you tend to have easy access to the api docs
11:21	noncom	hehe, well, thanks! i'll go do more things with that.. :)
11:22	gfredericks	sandbags: the rdocs are all published in the same place?
11:22	Anderkent	wait what? data.csv is not a core lib. it lives in a separate jar
11:22	gfredericks	Anderkent: "contrib lib" is probably what I should have said
11:22	gfredericks	I did not mean that it's distributed with the clojure jar
11:22	sandbags	okay so it's easy enough to rustle up the docs
11:22	noncom	,'(+ 1 'nothing)
11:22	clojurebot	(+ 1 (quote nothing))
11:22	Anderkent	yeah that's kinda different.
11:23	sandbags	i do wish more of them came with examples, but i guess you can always find something to complain about :)
11:23	noncom	,'(+ 1 ~'nothing)
11:23	clojurebot	(+ 1 (clojure.core/unquote (quote nothing)))
11:23	Anderkent	sandbags: I don't think there's a 'list of all clojure.org' projects, but they are usually well documented. data.csv doesnt have that rich an api nayway: http://clojure.github.io/data.csv/
11:23	gfredericks	noncom: shameless plug: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/macros-clojure-west-2013
11:24	Anderkent	I guess you can just take a look at https://github.com/clojure to see all org.clojure/* projects
11:24	sandbags	Anderkent: yep i was able to rustle that page up (but thanks, in any case, for the link) i guess it's maybe a case of finding my feet
11:24	sandbags	and having the right instinct about where to look
11:24	Anderkent	my workflow when I find a lib is usually
11:24	sandbags	although i would have thought that some kind of consolidated search over clojars and maven would be useful
11:25	hanDerPeder	does anyone know if clj-webdriver is actively maintained?
11:25	Anderkent	lein try org.clojure/data.csv , (require '[clojure.data.csv :as c]) (c/<tab completion>)
11:25	Anderkent	and see what comes up :P
11:25	gfredericks	sandbags: well I don't think "maven" is a thing you can search over. But it could be better than it is, yeah
11:25	sandbags	:)
11:25	sandbags	gfredericks: i meant search.maven.org
11:25	Anderkent	you can search maven, but that's not usually what you want to do
11:26	Anderkent	and you can't trust mvn central anyway
11:26	sandbags	good to know :)
11:26	xeqi	I believe sonatype is calling that "central"
11:26	Anderkent	central's broken by design, and you should really strive to use sonatype/clojars instead of central whenever you can
11:26	sandbags	btw Anderkent, why do you quote your vector in that require?
11:27	Anderkent	sandbags: because it's not in the ns macro
11:27	xeqi	Anderkent: can you expand on the "broken by design" ?
11:27	Anderkent	xeqi: there's no access control. Once you have push to mvn central, you can push to any group/artifact, and even overwrite versions
11:27	sandbags	Anderkent: (answer-expand-1 "because it's not in the ns macro")
11:28	xeqi	Anderkent: ah, right
11:28	Anderkent	sandbags: the ns macro quotes symbols for you, so (ns (:require [foo.bar :as zip])) works.
11:28	Anderkent	but if you try ##(require non.quoted.symbol)
11:28	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: non.quoted.symbol
11:28	Anderkent	it will not work.
11:28	futile	well of course writing my parser was so hard, i forgot to split it into a tokenize phase and parse phase
11:28	Anderkent	##(require clojure.java.io)
11:28	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.java.io
11:28	sandbags	ah, you're using (require ...) not (ns ... (require ...)) i see
11:28	Anderkent	##(require 'clojure.java.io)
11:28	lazybot	⇒ nil
11:28	Anderkent	yep
11:28	futile	thats super functional, too. how could i be so silly.
11:28	sandbags	I am finding require to be the bane of my existence at the moment
11:29	noncom	gfredericks: thanks for the reference! seems like that presentation will be very informative for me
11:29	sandbags	i have to use it often but I cannot, yet, internalise the rules for writing it properly
11:29	Anderkent	sandbags: you should use :require within ns form. And you rarely should have a non-ns require in your code
11:29	sandbags	i did smile when i watched Chas Emerick's talk about clojure issues
11:29	Anderkent	it only really comes up in the repl
11:30	sandbags	Anderkent: i meant "ns require" rather than the require function
11:30	noncom	sandbag: what were the issues?
11:30	sandbags	maybe just my brain getting old
11:30	sandbags	noncom: i just find it hard to remember the rules for writing a require correclty
11:30	sandbags	and, almost every time, have to refer back to a previous time ive done it or one of my books
11:30	Anderkent	right. you'll learn it eventually, but in general you only need (ns (:require [full.lib.name :as alias] ...))
11:31	noncom	sandbags: there are "two different" require, :require in the ns form and (require)
11:31	Anderkent	all the other stuff like :refer is optional :)
11:31	hhenkel	Anyone around who can explain why the string "${part2.test2.1}" get replaced with "TESTTEST" using (clojure.string/replace % #".*" "TEST") ?
11:31	sandbags	i'm better than i was, but it's just the thing i hit every time i am writing code
11:31	noncom	although they are the same ultimately
11:31	hhenkel	Hmm, seems like .+ is better....?
11:31	sandbags	what's the difference between (ns (:require ...)) and (ns (require ...)) btw?
11:31	sandbags	i find i am using them interchangably
11:32	noncom	futile: what is that parser you're talking about?
11:32	futile	a parser
11:32	futile	noncom: im pissing everyone off by writing my own Clojure parser in Clojure
11:32	Anderkent	hhenkel: it does seem like a bug.
11:32	futile	im also using my own testing lib to do it
11:32	ToxicFrog	hhenkel: .* is zero or more of any character. .+ is one or more. The .* might be matching the empty string at the start or end.
11:32	noncom	sandbags: (:require) is simply a parameter to ns macro, it is not a function call
11:32	noncom	(require) is a function call
11:33	ToxicFrog	I've run into similar issues with java's regex library returning spurious empty string matches.
11:33	clgv	sandbags: you should be using (:require ...) within `ns`
11:33	sandbags	clgv: ok, i've no idea quite where I got the (ns (require ...)) pattern from, presumably misreading something
11:33	sandbags	thanks guys
11:33	noncom	noncom: as (ns) is a macro, the list (:require [stuff :as s]) does not get parsed until it is pulled apart inside (ns)
11:33	Anderkent	sandbags: it should be (:require) not require :)
11:34	noncom	(ns (require)) is definitely not what you want, yeah
11:34	sandbags	Understood :)
11:34	sandbags	unfortunately it seems to work (for some value of work involving not raising any errors and doing some kind of require)
11:35	noncom	futile: cool! i think that everybody should welcome Clojure parser in Clojure?
11:35	sandbags	so it wasn't obvious IWDIW
11:35	Anderkent	hhenkel: ##(.replaceAll "a" ".*" "FOO")
11:35	lazybot	⇒ "FOOFOO"
11:35	Anderkent	so I guess it's a java thing
11:35	futile	noncom: they say i should use instaparse or something that already exists
11:35	Anderkent	basically the .* matches twice - first for the entire string, then the empty string
11:35	futile	noncom: which generally is good advice, but not when the goal is to learn how to write a parser
11:35	xeqi	futile: you should write your own monadic parser combinator library
11:35	futile	ahhhh!!!!
11:36	sandbags	xeqi: hand him a big smelly yakk and a razor why don't you!
11:36	arcatan	you should write your own applicative parser combinator library
11:36	xeqi	fine fine, you can stick with an applicative functors .... blah
11:37	hhenkel	Anderkent: yeah, seems like you're right.
11:37	sandbags	hrmm.. i can't seem to google this up: I'm running a lein new template app in LightTable... does the process have some concept of what folder it comes from?
11:37	futile	xeqi: Be that word our sign of parting, nerd or fiend!
11:37	noncom	i think those are good advices. btw i saw good material on how to write them. for sure i seen much on the topic but for scala
11:37	sandbags	so that I can locate a file in the project root folder
11:37	futile	xeqi: Leave no parenthesis as a token of that lie thy soul hath spoken!
11:38	noncom	sandbags: try (System/getProperty "user.dir")
11:38	technomancy	http://timberglund.com/blog/2012/08/03/the-maven/
11:38	sandbags	noncom: nice, thanks
11:38	technomancy	futile: ^
11:38	futile	technomancy: oh it has a video too??
11:38	lazybot	futile: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
11:39	technomancy	it is. a masterpiece.
11:40	futile	heh wow
11:40	futile	"Leave my project's build unbroken!—quit my central source code store!"
11:41	futile	shoulda said "quit my DVCS store"
11:43	sandbags	hrmm... am i missing a function for appending to file paths? or (it's been a long time since I did any Java) is this because the JVM abstracts all path separators to "/" so you can just use (str ...) ?
11:44	sandbags	(and literal "/"'s i mean)
11:44	Anderkent	sandbags: java.nio.file.Path?
11:45	futile	so um, i really think my testing lib has advantages over the existing options. is that grounds enough to ANN it on the mailing list?
11:45	Anderkent	yeah, it's not like anyone reads it
11:45	Anderkent	;P
11:45	noncom	futile: try and see! it's free :D
11:46	noncom	sandbags: i use (str) to concat strings
11:46	futile	i guess im concerned because ive announced 2 other testing libs already, to a loud negative critical reaction
11:46	sandbags	noncom: ta
11:47	Anderkent	well, we can't promise you'll have a positive reaction... But the problem is probably not in the announcing, but rather in something inherent to the lib
11:47	noncom	futile: well, maybe it is worth to have someone test your libs prior to announcement then
11:48	noncom	i too had that sloppy feeling posting an announcement recently
11:48	futile	Anderkent: the first time the problem was that the lib was kind of a rude (and stupid) plan, of trying to unify all the testing libs with one backend.
11:48	muhoo	i am deeply suspicious of any "unifying" effort
11:48	futile	the second time, the problem was that i had already announced the first one, so people were already not so fond of my releasing a testing lib.
11:48	muhoo	without even reading the details of what it's trying to unify.
11:49	sandbags	futile: perhaps, as an alternative strategy, see if someone else can prove your testing library on their project and do a co-announcement?
11:49	futile	sandbags: thats a good idea
11:50	dnolen	squidz: I fixed the set bug from yesterday
11:50	noncom	sandbags: also it is worth putting "/" in (str prefix "/" my-path) for safety, since "folder//folder2" is treated ok, what you cant say of "folderfolder2"
11:50	futile	Even if nobody else uses it but me, I'll be happy with it. And that's why I think I should consider announcing it.
11:50	sandbags	noncom: yep
11:51	noncom	futile: i think that whatever comes up, it is for your benifit
11:51	futile	Ooooh, I know why I can't announce this comfortably... it's because the main reasons I like it are sharply contrasted with the competition (by design).
11:52	noncom	you mean it is different from the peers?
11:53	futile	For example, you don't write tests at the top-level of a file (unlike in Expectations), and I like the assertion style better than Midje's or Speclj's.
11:53	futile	noncom: no, I mean the reasons I like it are because it does things differently than peers
11:54	futile	And that makes me a huge asshat.
11:55	noncom	futile: well, when i come into such a position, i write a short document which outlines and describes all the benifits
11:55	sandbags	so it seems like i am still struggling with damn requires
11:56	noncom	then read it several times
11:56	noncom	and think if i can present the outline points as a win
11:56	noncom	then, if i can manage tht, usually people react good
11:56	noncom	sandbags: whatsup?
11:56	futile	I think "referential transparency" might be the shortest way of describing why I wanted it in the first place.
11:57	arohner	futile: link to the lib(s)?
11:57	sandbags	something about the moving parts between what you put in project.clj, what you (ns (:require ...)) in your own code, the lack of error trapping in how project.clj is parsed, the issue of getting the right version numbers, and LightTable not necessarily reporting whatever problems do get trapped properly
11:57	futile	arohner: https://github.com/sdegutis/nevermore
11:57	futile	But I gotta rename it.
12:00	noncom	sandbags: i find lighttable not suitable for me yet. it is a little unresponsive yet. as for moving parts... idk, you do not have to move anything between project.clj and (ns)... what are you doing?
12:00	sandbags	i am sure this probably all becomes subconscious at some point
12:00	sandbags	but as a beginner it has the feeling of being a huge piece of grit in my eye
12:00	sandbags	often making me feel functionally illiterate
12:01	sandbags	noncom: i mean how i put "org.clojure/data.csv" in project.clj but I require clojure.data.csv
12:01	sandbags	and how i can be looking at the API docs saying it's v1.3 but v1.3 isn't actually released so it won't load
12:01	noncom	heh
12:02	sandbags	and how if i mess up editing my project.clj so that i end up with [[lib1 "ver" lib2 "ver"]] instead of [[lib1 "ver"][Lib2 "ver"]] it will just silently fail
12:02	noncom	well, there is no direct relation between whaat you put in project.clj and what you put in ns. don't look for parallels there. names ofcourse match, but technically there is no conenction
12:02	sandbags	noncom: this is my point
12:03	noncom	yeah all that was happening to me too
12:03	sandbags	right now most of my problems with bootstrapping clojure is not learning to "Think functional, you cannot think objects and translate" but "Why the fuck won't this library require now?"
12:04	sandbags	like i say, i presume at some point i'll just internalise all the mucking about and will no longer notice it any more
12:04	sandbags	but it seems like a less than ideal setup right now
12:04	noncom	if i use (defmacro m [x] '(+ 1 ~x)) how do i make it to resolve x as the param?
12:04	sandbags	of course i suspect that all the people who could sand this down have long since stopped noticing and are working on more interesting problems :)
12:05	noncom	sandbags: right. i noticed that phenomenon to be widely spread over ppl
12:05	clgv	noncom: unquote unly works with backtick (defmacro m [x] `(+ 1 ~x))
12:05	clgv	*only
12:05	noncom	clgv: so no way?
12:05	futile	sandbags: I haven't run into that issue.
12:06	sandbags	as to LightTable it's for sure still very much a work in progress but as someone who has abandoned all hope of learning emacs (even if my RSI didn't make it a non-starter) i am finding it a generally very productive environment to work in
12:06	clgv	noncom: see the example above. that work
12:06	clgv	sandbags: did you try eclipse+counterclockwise?
12:06	sandbags	clgv: no
12:06	noncom	clgv: but i cant use backtick because it will incorrectly resolve (ns boo) to (ns current-ns/boo) :(
12:06	clgv	sandbags: you should
12:06	futile	sandbags: I've also found that paredit helps me avoid a lot of those kind of pitfalls, because it balances parens for me and makes my code structure obvious.
12:06	noncom	sandbags: i use ccw, give it a try
12:07	clgv	noncom: what exatly do you want to do
12:07	sandbags	futile: i am hoping for paredit in a future version of LT, it looks amazing
12:07	futile	sandbags: but at the same time, I sympathize that emacs is too painful for someone who just wants to write Clojure, that's why I'm writing my own IDE now.
12:07	sandbags	clgv: i may have been too scarred by use of Eclipse in a past life
12:07	clgv	ccw has most of paredit as well ;)
12:08	sandbags	i no longer remember anything about it, i just feel a deep pain somewhere around my kidneys when I read its name
12:09	Anderkent	eclipse invariably is a huge pain, but still better for clojure than intellij. If you're not willing to take the vim/emacs plunge, I guess it's the best option
12:09	sandbags	I often use Vim but never managed to get a working Vim+Clojure setup
12:09	noncom	clgv: https://www.refheap.com/18316
12:10	sandbags	i've given up trying to learn emacs... 3 attempts is enough (even if my RSI makes it not a great choice)
12:10	Anderkent	noncom: that's the correct resolution
12:10	sandbags	other than bits of paraedit what would CCW give me that you can't live without?
12:10	sandbags	what's the main selling point?
12:10	noncom	Anderkent: yes, sorry, it is corerect, but not what i need
12:10	Anderkent	if you want to strip out the namespace then you need to do `(+ 1 ~@'x)
12:11	Anderkent	eh wait that's not right
12:11	clgv	sandbags: what do you use right now?
12:11	sandbags	i'd like paredit sure but otherwise, barring the Codemirror versino of Vim isn't complete, i'm not finding myself missing that much in LightTable
12:11	noncom	sandbags: ccw is heaven
12:12	sandbags	well i guess i should probably give it a try
12:12	sandbags	does it have a debugger?
12:12	noncom	what is debugger?
12:12	sandbags	LT is making some steps through it's watches
12:12	sandbags	but i would, occasionally, like to be able to single-step
12:12	sandbags	although i have no idea how that would work with clojure code
12:12	sandbags	where so much can be happening in "a line"
12:12	noncom	i do not know, i never use that kind of debug
12:12	clgv	noncom: does `x` contain 'boo at compile time?
12:13	sandbags	ah the joys of starbucks wi-fi and 200mb downloads
12:13	noncom	clgv: well, i am not sure...
12:14	Anderkent	noncom: what exactly are you trying to do
12:14	clgv	noncom: that is a problem. with macros you always have to now or specify what is known at compile time and what shall be done at compile time
12:15	clgv	noncom: given an example macro call and the desired expansion of the macro call
12:16	squidz	dnolen: awesome. When do you think I will be able to use it?
12:16	noncom	well, you see, that macros, `z` in the refheap post is called from a string that is passed through (eval (read-string s)) first
12:16	Anderkent	on runtime or compile time?
12:16	noncom	that (eval (readstring s)) happens inside the namespace where z is defined
12:17	noncom	Anderkent: runtime... :( ?
12:17	Anderkent	right, so you're calling z like (z evalled-string), not (z {:literal :map})
12:17	noncom	yes
12:17	Anderkent	and you want to extract a symbol from evalled string on runtime and call ns on it
12:17	Anderkent	why is it a macro?
12:18	Anderkent	why not just (defn z [dict] (ns (:param dict))) ?
12:18	noncom	hmmm...
12:18	clgv	noncom: the use of `eval` there probably adds to your confusion ;)
12:18	noncom	clgv: sure :)
12:19	noncom	well, really.. why is this macro...
12:19	clgv	noncom: cant you make a minimal viable gist that should run if the macro was implemented correctly?
12:19	noncom	must defn be better
12:20	sandbags	okay Java interop isn't so hideous after all
12:20	noncom	clgv: well, idk, that refheap contained all the idea i think, except the eval. a map is read from the string and a namespace is created from one of its params...
12:20	Anderkent	noncom: as I said. Just make it a function. Trying to force it to be a macro for no reason is just additional pain
12:21	Anderkent	sandbags: yeah it's pretty convenient. I find myself firing up clojure repl just to explore java libs etc.
12:21	Anderkent	easier than trying to write java :P
12:21	sandbags	well i've not written any Java since about 2005 so i'd have to agree with you there
12:21	sandbags	although i am somewhat surprised more of the IO stuff isn't wrapped
12:22	sandbags	i mean, it's not so hideous to write (.exists (io/file "path")) but...
12:22	noncom	that puzzled me too
12:22	noncom	why so?
12:23	Anderkent	yeah, lack of nice wrappers for io/nio is slightly painful
12:23	Anderkent	but i guess it's mostly because it's tedius work to create them
12:23	sandbags	i guess, to be fair
12:23	Anderkent	clojure.java.io is already pretty nice :)
12:23	sandbags	i'm really complaining about writing ".exists" rather than "exists?"
12:24	gfredericks	sandbags: (-> "path" io/file .exists)
12:24	Anderkent	something like file/exists? rather than exists?, probably :P
12:24	futile	ok, renamed my testing lib
12:24	clgv	noncom: sorry cant help you then. usually you describe a macro as follows. example call (when-let [x (do-sth)] (inc x) expansion: (let [x (do-sth)] (when x (inc x))) [<--- not the expansion of clojure.core/when-let ;) ]
12:24	futile	no more trying to steal technomancy's naming approach
12:24	sandbags	gfredericks: yes that's quite nice ... still haven't quite internalized the -> and ->> macros yet
12:24	clgv	noncom: given that information it is much much easier to help
12:24	gfredericks	sandbags: once you do they become indispensible
12:24	shaungilchrist	sandbags: this was just posted on the mailing list http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxE5wDbt964
12:25	sandbags	thanks
12:25	noncom	clgv: you mean the real context of use? but it is the context. i just ommited reading the string from the file and thats it... i am experimenting with creating namespaces through eval
12:25	Anderkent	it's a slippery slope. You start with -> and ->>, couple weeks till <<- and -<>, and two months later you find yourself with -<><:p and -!> all over the place!
12:26	Anderkent	noncom: it's less about the context and more about the purpose
12:26	Anderkent	there's nothing that requires dynamically created namespace to be done within a macro. (defn new-ns [config] (ns (:ns-sym config)) (def k 1)) does exactly what you want, as far as I can tell
12:27	sandbags	this is the kind of thing i mean ... Eclipse "Help > Install New Software" because I always look for actions like that in a bloody help menu
12:27	clgv	noncom: you provide a macro implementation try and nothing more..
12:27	Anderkent	sandbags: yes. Eclipse is horrible in that way.
12:27	dnolen	squidz: probably next week some time, there a few more patches I would like to get in.
12:27	sandbags	clojurians do seem to be on a sigil bender lately
12:27	Anderkent	sandbags: wait until you try to unisntall some plugin. The only way I found to do it is to go help -> install new software -> find the 'what is already installed?' link -> proceed to do actual uninstal
12:27	sandbags	at least that's my perception as someone reasonably new to the platform
12:28	squidz	dnolen: cool thanks for the quick work
12:28	noncom	oh there was a long talk here recently, i believe on monday.. on why i do this. i do a research project on linguistics where i also research computer languages.. i research self-referencing properties of languages.. as for why i went the macro way.. probably coz im clojure noob :)
12:29	sandbags	macro's are enticing because they're one of the reasons you're there in the first place
12:29	noncom	no-no, eclipse is beautiful that way! see, you could be installing the plugins manually, by copying jars and writing property files, but Eclipse is there to HELP you install new software
12:29	sandbags	but as with many people i've taught Ruby... you have to check your desire for massively inappropriate metaprogramming
12:30	Anderkent	macros bring complexity, if you can do something with a function you shuold always choose that
12:30	dnolen	sandbags: wrapping Java piecemeal is a futile task, CLJS same problem because the enormity of the DOM, generally not worth it unless you're adding real value ie some real abstraction beyond wrappers.
12:30	Anderkent	only when there's significant benefit shuold you consider writing a macro
12:30	clgv	sandbags: in clojure dev I hardly use any eclipse menu ;)
12:31	sandbags	dnolen: yeah on reflection i am bound to agree with you
12:31	sandbags	it was kind of a knee-jerk reaction
12:31	sandbags	oh god i am not sure i can use Eclipse
12:32	sandbags	this is bringing back horrible nightmarish familiarity
12:32	noncom	me too, i just have the editor, the project tree and the repl
12:32	sandbags	of software designed by people who should clearly should have nothing to do with the design of software
12:32	sandbags	indeed who should be actively disbarred from the profession
12:32	Anderkent	sandbags: c'mon, i bet it didnt even hang on you yet
12:33	rasmusto	Anderkent: it's not the software hanging that he's worried about
12:33	sandbags	it's trying its best
12:33	noncom	dnolen: can a robot do that? (wrapping i mean)
12:34	Anderkent	you could generate the bindings that mirror classes one to one, but what's the point
12:34	Anderkent	it'd only make sense to wrap stuff if you improve the api
12:34	sandbags	"Problem occurred. Creation problems. Invalid project description."
12:34	sandbags	there is no field for project description
12:34	dnolen	noncom: think about the differences between hosts, it really is pointless - file handling in Java is sync, file handling in Node is not.
12:35	dnolen	noncom: these sorts of things better handled in well thought out libraries
12:35	dnolen	noncom: with specific goals
12:35	Anderkent	sandbags: what kind of project are you importing? mvn or lein?
12:35	sandbags	i am trying to create one
12:35	noncom	yeah, right..
12:35	Anderkent	don't do that. Create the project on filesystem, then import into eclipse
12:35	sandbags	of course! i should have realised :)
12:35	Anderkent	i mean I guess ccw probably gives you some kind of creator
12:35	Anderkent	but why learn all that
12:36	noncom	Anderkent: I can say that creating clojure projects with ccw works for me now..
12:36	noncom	there was a trouble with the creator in past versions
12:36	sandbags	oh wait... this "workspace" business.. does this need to be a folder that Eclipse can own?
12:36	noncom	yes
12:36	Anderkent	sandbags: yes. But your projects can live outside the workspace
12:36	noncom	:)
12:37	Anderkent	I just put them in ~/.eclipse/workspaces/XXX
12:37	sandbags	i am not sure i can use software that i am going to actively hate this much, even if it does have paredit
12:37	Anderkent	treat a workspace as a config set
12:37	gfredericks	bbloom: I am curious about your "only extend protocol if you own the protocol or the type" guideline
12:37	gfredericks	in particular this one case I am handling
12:37	gfredericks	and what you think is wrong with it
12:38	sandbags	"No projects are found to import"
12:38	Anderkent	sandbags: did you pick the right type? (clojure/leiningen project I assume)
12:38	sandbags	is there some CCW specific import?
12:39	Anderkent	yes, it will be under clojure
12:39	sandbags	i don't seem to have Clojure under the import tree
12:39	Anderkent	do you have ccw installed? :P
12:39	sandbags	apparently
12:39	Anderkent	lemme fire up eclipse
12:39	Anderkent	(back in 10 mins)
12:40	noncom	sandbags: first, create empty project by New->General->Empty project, specify its folder as the folder of the proj you just created with lein. Right click on it and Configuration -> turn into clojure project..
12:40	noncom	or turn into lein prject.. i dont remember
12:40	Anderkent	yuck no don't do that
12:40	Anderkent	eclipse will do stupid stuff to your filesystem
12:40	Anderkent	like create ~/bin or w/e
12:40	sandbags	i definitely have CCW as I have File>New>Clojure Project
12:40	clojurebot	excusez-moi
12:40	noncom	but it was the official instruction
12:40	sandbags	well perhaps i shouldn't sound so definitive
12:41	sandbags	who knows? maybe i have half of CCW
12:41	sandbags	and it's severed head is wandering around someone in the upper regions of memory
12:42	Anderkent	hm, you're right that it doesn't have import
12:42	Anderkent	that's weird
12:43	noncom	Anderkent: if i do "(defn z [dict] (ns (:param dict)))" as you adviced, it gives "ClassCastException clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol"
12:43	noncom	i believe it treats (:params dict) as a list
12:43	noncom	coz it quotes it..
12:43	noncom	?
12:43	Anderkent	ah yes
12:43	sandbags	well this is great, i have now created a new Clojure project
12:43	sandbags	and... where the hell is it?
12:43	futile	ha
12:43	noncom	sandbags: is it in the file explorer?
12:43	sandbags	oh i see, i need the workbench
12:43	noncom	of the eclipse i mean
12:44	sandbags	how is this thing not better? this seems like exactly the experience i had last time i tried Eclipse
12:44	sandbags	how can almost 10 years not improve a thing AT ALL?
12:44	sandbags	that or it wither and die
12:44	technomancy	ten years ago it didn't support clojure =)
12:44	sandbags	it supposes that people are using this piece of shit and living with it
12:45	noncom	sandbags: i believe that most of your current feelings are induced by the destructive imprint from the past
12:45	sandbags	and how is it SO FUCKINGGGGGGGGG SLOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
12:45	sandbags	i am on a 1.7GHz i7 with 8GB of RAM and an SSD, it shouldn't take several seconds to open a file containing 5 lines of text
12:45	Anderkent	it's not slow, your machine is slow! At least you have the minimum 16GB ram right?
12:45	sandbags	ah well, there we go
12:45	Anderkent	ah, 8gb ram is your problem
12:45	noncom	ahah
12:45	Anderkent	you're in java land
12:45	sandbags	i'll try it on the Mac Pro later
12:46	technomancy	ed doesn't waste space on my timex sinclair you guys.
12:46	opqdonut	just use emacs and nrepl
12:46	sandbags	noncom: you could well be right
12:46	sandbags	opqdonut: non e possiblé
12:46	sandbags	but i have to say i am feeling a lot better about LightTable's shortcomings right about now :)
12:46	technomancy	sandbags: you've done the obvious stuff like a split keyboard and moving ctrl to the right of the A key, right?
12:46	Anderkent	noncom: now htat I think about it, it might well be impossible to do what you want without something like eval
12:47	technomancy	(re: rsi)
12:47	sandbags	technomancy: yeah i have caps lock mapped to ^ as a regular habit
12:47	sandbags	technomancy: i just can't get along with emacs
12:47	noncom	Anderkent: err... what would be the way with eval?
12:47	technomancy	just making sure
12:47	sandbags	i've tried several times
12:47	sandbags	technomancy: thx :)
12:48	Anderkent	noncom: (defn redefine-ns [dict] (eval `(ns ~(:param dict))))
12:48	noncom	ohoh
12:48	opqdonut	instead of eval you can always just do what ns expands to
12:49	Anderkent	technomancy: to the right of a key?
12:49	Anderkent	i guess you don't like your s's
12:49	Anderkent	sandbags: just use vim!
12:49	Anderkent	:P
12:49	sandbags	Anderkent: i do!
12:49	sandbags	well, for the most part
12:49	technomancy	Anderkent: derp
12:49	pbostrom	noncom: (defn z [dict] (let [sym (:param dict)] (ns sym)))
12:49	rasmusto	sandbags: have you tried vim-fireplace?
12:50	sandbags	rasmusto: i have not
12:50	Anderkent	pbostrom: that won't work, (ns sym) will declare namespace claled sym
12:50	Anderkent	fireplace is ok
12:50	Anderkent	you still need to ctrl-z to a real repl from time to time
12:50	rasmusto	sandbags: it's worth a shot, I can't speak to it vs eclipse though
12:50	Anderkent	but that's cool
12:50	Anderkent	sandbags: also vim-paredit
12:50	sandbags	i am already two steps from deleting eclipse again
12:50	Anderkent	must have
12:50	opqdonut	noncom: I'm not sure what you're trying to do, but this might help: https://gist.github.com/opqdonut/6439400
12:50	pbostrom	doh
12:50	rasmusto	Anderkent: real repls are overrated
12:51	sandbags	i can't imagine what it can do that would be worth living in such an application
12:51	Anderkent	sandbags: me I was looking to switching to evilmacs
12:51	rasmusto	sandbags: vim-sexp is a paredit-lite, if you like doing more vimmish editing
12:51	sandbags	and i think i've caught it before i fall into Stockholm syndrome
12:51	Anderkent	but reconfiguring all the bindings for nrepl-el etc to work with my ingrained vim motions is a real pain
12:51	noncom	thanks to you who have proposed solutions, i am currently inspecting them..
12:51	Anderkent	and evil doesn't work with paredit
12:52	Anderkent	which is a huge pain
12:52	rasmusto	Anderkent: the automatic insertion stuff works fine, not so much the movement commands. But there's definitely a lot of overlap
12:52	Anderkent	(dd etc. unbalance parens)
12:53	Anderkent	i wish i knew how to get YouCompleteMe to work with fireplace/paredit though :(
12:53	Anderkent	then I'd be happy in vimland
12:53	futile	Does Clojure have something like C's enum?
12:53	noncom	futile: in which sense?
12:54	rasmusto	Anderkent: <c-x><c-o> isn't good enough?
12:54	futile	Giving names to auto-incrementing numbers.
12:54	Anderkent	rasmusto: no, I like to have fuzzy completition all the time, without having to prompt for them
12:54	futile	I could enumerate through an indexed list of names and do (def) but that feels a bit odd.
12:54	rasmusto	Anderkent: ah, ok. Have you used autocomplpop?
12:55	rasmusto	(I love typing that btw)
12:55	Anderkent	no. I tried YouCompleteMe, which looks similar except it's not written in viml and 3 years old
12:55	Anderkent	but it doesn't quite work
12:55	noncom	futile: idk meybe there is a lib.. but you could easily write a code for that.. create a {} where name is a key and number is the valie
12:56	futile	noncom: so "no"?
12:56	futile	ok
12:56	futile	thanks
12:56	Anderkent	futile: the fact that enums have numbers in java is an implementation detail and you shouldn't really have to use that
12:56	rasmusto	Anderkent: fireplace handles setting up omnicomplete to work with nrepl, and autocomplpop just makes autocomplete trigger while you're typing
12:56	futile	Okay better question:
12:56	Anderkent	rasmusto: right, YouCompleteMe does something similar except it also uses its own identifier-based completion system
12:57	futile	Is there a way in Clojure to create a bunch of unique-per-process constants?
12:57	Anderkent	which is cool in theory but doesnt seem to work with clojures omnifunc
12:57	futile	I suppose I could just do (def foobar) and take #'foobar, right?
12:57	Anderkent	futile: process or thread?
12:57	rasmusto	Anderkent: k, that was my impression. You should try out fireplace + <c-x><c-o> (w/ autocomplpop maybe). It works well from my experience
12:57	gfredericks	(defmacro C-enum [syms] (cons 'do (map-indexed (fn [i sym] `(def ~sym ~i)) syms)))
12:57	futile	Anderkent: I only mean I don't need it to be persisted between different times of running my app.
12:58	technomancy	futile: gensym
12:58	futile	Anderkent: It should be the same on all threads.
12:58	Anderkent	yeah gensym sounds right
12:58	gfredericks	futile: ^ how's about that macro?
12:58	futile	technomancy: But then it becomes a string. Isn't that inefficient to compare two strings?
12:58	futile	gfredericks: hmm
12:58	Anderkent	gensym gives a symbol, symbols are interned
12:58	technomancy	,(gensym)
12:58	clojurebot	G__31
12:58	Anderkent	symbol comparison is reference equality
12:58	futile	Oh nice! gensym it is then.
12:59	Anderkent	just dont use prefixes
12:59	futile	This should work excellently for representing different token types.
12:59	TimMc	futile: Why not keywords?
12:59	futile	TimMc: I want compile-time errors.
13:00	TimMc	That's what I was afraid of.
13:00	TimMc	"Giving names to auto-incrementing numbers." is not "I want compile-time errors."
13:00	futile	Wait, I vaguely remember some email thread a month ago about how keywords are interned but symbols aren't, on account of metadata...
13:01	futile	TimMc: sorry, I'll work on asking better questions
13:01	TimMc	Symbols are not interned, but they use interned strings.
13:01	futile	ah
13:01	rickmode	leiningen question: Is there a way to disable the AOT that's needed for a main when launching a REPL?
13:01	futile	So the interned strings are ref-compared then?
13:01	futile	works for me
13:01	Anderkent	futile: well, they're .equal compared but .equal checks for reference equality first
13:01	Anderkent	I'd assume
13:03	Anderkent	,(let [target (gensym "foo1")] (loop [attempt (gensym "foo")] (if (= target attempt) :broke-it (recur (gensym "foo")))))
13:03	clojurebot	:broke-it
13:04	Anderkent	just saying D
13:04	pbostrom	noncom: one more attempt (defmacro z [dict] (let [s (:param dict)] `(ns ~s)))
13:04	clgv	rickmode: yes search for lein-otf
13:04	Anderkent	pbostrom: that only works if dict is a literal map
13:05	rickmode	The main and AOT config for my project is only useful with an uberjar (which seems like the normal case), so I'd like to avoid it at the REPL
13:06	rickmode	clgv: ok, I'll check that out
13:06	clgv	rickmode: the author of it is online right now (TimMc) ;)
13:07	noncom	yeah, trying, still exploring..
13:09	noncom	mimicking macroexpandlooks the closest now..., but `(ns ~s) may also work..
13:09	clojurebot	I don't understand.
13:10	clgv	noncom: you can try those in repl as well ##(let [s 'bla] `(ns ~s))
13:10	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/ns bla)
13:14	solussd	why cant I put metadata on a list?
13:15	clgv	solussd: you can ##(let [l (with-meta '(1 2 3) {:awesome true})] (meta l))
13:15	lazybot	⇒ {:awesome true}
13:15	rhg^2	0.it's a jav interface
13:15	rhg^2	i forget which
13:16	solussd	but I couldnt ##(let [l ^{:type :thing} (list 1 2 3)] (meta l))
13:16	lazybot	⇒ nil
13:16	rhg^2	java objects don't usually have it tho
13:16	noncom	i have succeeded with the way of expanding ns to its macroexpand. now i will also try the `(ns ~s) way..
13:16	clgv	solussd: there is a difference between compile time meta data and runtime metadata
13:16	solussd	ack- right.. i'm being stupid
13:16	Anderkent	solussd: ^{} puts metadata on the (list 1 2 3) list for the compiler to see
13:16	clgv	solussd: ^{...} is compile time meta data
13:17	solussd	thanks!
13:35	sandbags	any feedback about this code i've written https://gist.github.com/mmower/b755a0b6f88292d9cec2 (it's pretty short)... looking mainly for comments on style/good practice
13:37	sandbags	the one thing i certainly noticed was that i'm using (get-in ...) to create a default empty vector for a key if it's not been seen before
13:37	mdrogalis	sandbags: It's a little long and does a few different things, but mostly looks good to me :)
13:37	sandbags	and then (assoc-in'ing) with that vector conj'd later and i wondered if it was possible to combine the two
13:37	justin_smith	sandbags: a loop where you keep grabbing the rest can be trivially made into a more idiomatic reduce
13:38	sandbags	mdrogalis: thanks... how would you see it being split up?
13:38	justin_smith	the first rows / rest rows becomes implicit with a reduce, you just get the next row on each call to the reducing function
13:38	sandbags	justin_smith: hrmm.. yes.. i'll think about that thanks
13:38	kaw	Hey, does anyone know what this error from attempting to use clojurecheck might be caused by? Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: Cannot recur across try, compiling:(clojurecheck/core.clj:311:17)
13:38	mdrogalis	sandbags: Not sure, just have time for a quick glance.
13:38	justin_smith	also, when you are using reduce, you can talk out the doall (since reduce is not lazy)
13:39	sandbags	mdrogalis: i guess what i am asking is whether you'd extract the inner part that processes the rows into a function
13:39	sandbags	at which point i guess you're pretty close to the reduce
13:39	kaw	Followed by around 100 lines of stack trace mostly from within clojure.lang, I don't know if any part of that is interesting?
13:39	sandbags	since it pulls the op out of the plumbing
13:39	sandbags	justin_smith: ah, that's definitely a benefit
13:40	justin_smith	I say take the fn out of the plumbing if you would ever use it in another context, otherwise make in an anonymous fn inside the reduce call
13:40	sandbags	justin_smith: yep i think that's what i will try, thanks again
13:41	mdrogalis	sandbags: Yes.
13:42	kaw	I mean, I can see it's an error about using recur across try, but I assume clojurecheck worked at some point, so might it be something like a version issue, or a mistake in how I'm using it?
13:42	sandbags	mdrogalis: ta
13:45	kaw	Oh, it looks like that was disallowed in 1.3, so I guess clojurecheck hasn't been updated to work with 1.3
13:45	kaw	Is there any quickcheck-like for Clojure that's up-to-date?
13:47	s4muel	kaw: https://github.com/reiddraper/simple-check
13:50	kaw	s4muel: Aha, I'll check that out, thanks
13:53	callen	are there any semi-authoritative benchmarks on core.async that I should be aware of?
13:53	callen	All I can find is the thread-ring'ish benchmark dnolen did.
13:59	danlentz	is there a "top" type in clojure? i.e. similar to T in CL? (for method dispatch using #'type)
14:00	augustl	callen: it's in snapshot so I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a lot of that around yet
14:00	callen	augustl: should I not use it in production? :P
14:00	augustl	callen: not sure tbh. If it works it works, I guess. What could possibly go wrong, etc :)
14:01	llasram	danlentz: For multimethods you can use :default (or a default value you define your self for the particular multimethod). For protocols and manual reference-based dispatch, in JVM Clojure you can use Object.
14:01	danlentz	wouldd that be java.lang.Object?
14:02	dnolen	callen: what type of benchmark specifically are you looking for? at this point I find it highly unlikely to be a bottleneck
14:02	danlentz	cool tis kindly. :default should do nicely.
14:03	callen	dnolen: I don't know how else to put this, so I'll just say it - I have to do a thesis defense'ish of Clojure, Datomic, and things like core.async. It would be nice if I could demonstrate how incredibly roundabout and backwards it is to (ab)use RabbitMQ in Python as a local backchannel in your processes.
14:03	callen	dnolen: to that end, things like latency and throughput would make the case wrt performance, the case for simplicity might require more de-programming of them.
14:04	technomancy	python doesn't have a j.u.c queue equivalent?
14:04	callen	technomancy: there's a Queue, but it doesn't really behave the way you think.
14:07	dnolen	callen: oh I can't speak broadly about the perf of Clojure JVM async, I suspect it's very, very good seeing as rhickey reviewed most of that code - most of the recent work tbaldrige and I did was just trying to get things close to the JVM modulo threads.
14:11	callen	dnolen: do I have any reason to be concerned vis a vis using core.async in production?
14:11	noncom	so alright, the macroexpand way worked fine! the other way that was proposed requires much quoting/unqoting and stuff. i got lost in that, especially when i add more instructions. but i am sure it will work if done correctly. i will explore it some time later
14:12	callen	obviously it's a permanent rolling snapshot.
14:12	callen	dnolen: API and functional stability being the main thing in mind.
14:21	coventry	Would it make sense for the (fn) macro to throw an error if the condition-map has keys other than :pre or :post?
14:22	muhoo	aren't :pre and :post just metadata?
14:22	muhoo	and {:pre [()]} is just sugar, IIRC?
14:22	callen	that was my understanding as well.
14:23	coventry	muhoo, callen: Not necessarily: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L4120 http://clojure.org/special_forms#Special Forms--(fn name? [params* ] condition-map? exprs*)
14:25	callen	so it's actually yanking them out and mapping assertions across them. nifty.
14:25	coventry	(I.e., if the body has more than a single map, and the first element is a map, that is taken as the condition-map.)
14:26	coventry	In other words, if you had some other map in there by accident, fn would silently eat it.
14:27	callen	nom nom.
14:31	dnolen	callen: high level api seems relatively stable, the only thing I know of coming down the pipe is read/write only ports
14:31	sdegutis	With such smart people in here, I wonder what would happen if you all spent a whole 8 hours working on the same project together. I bet it would be really awesome.
14:42	callen	sdegutis: doesn't work that way.
14:42	callen	sdegutis: you can't put 9 mothers together and get a baby in 1 month.
14:42	callen	sdegutis: but I'm sure the channel collectively appreciates the compliment :)
14:43	callen	dnolen: okay, I'll just take it for granted that given the people involved, it'll be fine. Thanks.
14:44	sdegutis	callen: I've only heard of that book, not read it. But that's the example I hear every time it's referenced.
14:46	callen	sdegutis: it's the most clear way to express the thought.
14:46	sdegutis	callen: I just see so much collective potential in here, it's exciting to think of how it could all be used.
14:46	callen	it merits a read.
14:46	sdegutis	callen: have you read the book?
14:47	callen	yes, it's one of the better ones I've read on the abstract nature of software projects.
14:47	sdegutis	Cool, I might have to check it out.
14:49	Brand0	apparently I'm a moron
14:49	sdegutis	Nope.
14:49	sdegutis	I don't think anyone in #clojure is capable of being such.
14:50	sdegutis	The language has a certain barrier to entry that prevents it.
14:51	Brand0	lol
14:51	shaungilchrist	sdegutis: I have wondered in the past if there was a well defined spec in which each function has a clearly defined input and output (and perhaps a definition of non-standard lexically available functions) if something like that would be possible
14:52	sandbags	justin_smith: so i followed your advice --> https://gist.github.com/mmower/d170188fcf88d8208ee8
14:52	shaungilchrist	like to the point each person is working on one function at a time and may have no knowledge of how it fits into the whole scheme til the end
14:52	shaungilchrist	they just deliver a working function that meets the spec
14:53	shaungilchrist	I think it would work for trivial things where a grand vision is not required e.g. a dr mario clone or something to that effect
14:53	sandbags	the one thing that bothers me now is having to use get-in as well as assoc-in
14:53	sandbags	i feel like i want an assoc-in that also takes a default value
14:54	sandbags	no
14:54	sandbags	that makes no sense
14:54	sdegutis	shaungilchrist: as long as the bigger picture is well-defined in advance, I think that would be a really fun and feasible project.
14:55	sdegutis	shaungilchrist: I mean the architecture and all the details of each function's inter-operation, like you said.
14:55	rasmusto	sandbags: how about update-in?
14:55	sandbags	a ha!
14:55	sandbags	rasmusto: that is i think exactly what i was after, thanks
14:56	rasmusto	any time
14:56	shaungilchrist	It would be called fn-quilt and people would jump into the site and just grab a fn here or a fn there and write them on their lunch breaks contributing to a tapestry beyond their imagination
14:56	sdegutis	Is it possible to model an entire tree in an immutable fashion, whose deep nodes need to change (mutate) in response to events?
14:57	callen	sdegutis: zippers.
14:57	sdegutis	The only way I can think of is by writing some kind of walking function which walks the whole thing, mutates the deep part needs the change, and returns the whole thing, but that seems difficult.
14:57	callen	sdegutis: zippers.
14:57	sdegutis	callen: Thanks I'll google it.
14:57	sdegutis	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.zip/zipper
14:58	sdegutis	This comes with Clojure?
14:58	callen	sdegutis: yes.
14:58	sdegutis	Sounds like I'm not the first person to have this problem.
14:58	callen	zippers are important, people really need to become comfortable with them.
14:58	sdegutis	(Nor second.)
14:58	callen	sdegutis: I've needed zippers at least 3 different times in the last ~9 months and zippers are the basis of more than one templating library in Clojure.
14:59	ToxicFrog	Why is using a zipper for this a better choice than associ-in?
14:59	sdegutis	callen: The could use some more advertising, I've never heard of them until now. I've seen "zip" namespace in clojuredocs but assumed it was some specialized versions of &&(doc zip)
14:59	sdegutis	,(doc zip)
14:59	clojurebot	Huh?
14:59	technomancy	~zip
14:59	clojurebot	zip is not necessary in clojure, because map can walk over multiple sequences, acting as a zipWith. For example, (map list '(1 2 3) '(a b c)) yields ((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))
14:59	sdegutis	technomancy: yeah that
14:59	sandbags	rasmusto: yep, update-in worked a charm thanks again ... now i just have to try and remember about it :)
14:59	sdegutis	ToxicFrog: because I generate the deep-location dynamically
15:00	sdegutis	ToxicFrog: or rather, I find the deep-location dynamically and don't have it up-front.
15:00	ToxicFrog	Aah.
15:00	rasmusto	sandbags: I usually have at least 3 clojure cheatsheet tabs open at any given point
15:00	sdegutis	callen: Can you write a blog intro on zippers? I don't know where to start in the 'zip' namesapce.
15:00	sandbags	rasmusto: :)
15:00	ToxicFrog	Because generating it dynamically is fine as long as you have the whole path ready when you call assoc-in.
15:00	ToxicFrog	,(inc sdegutis)
15:00	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: sdegutis in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
15:00	ToxicFrog	(inc sdegutis)
15:00	lazybot	⇒ 1
15:01	sdegutis	Why?
15:01	clojurebot	sdegutis: because you can't handle the truth!
15:01	sdegutis	Oh.
15:01	callen	sdegutis: zippers are kind of annoying to learn, and doubly so to teach.
15:02	callen	sdegutis: you might be able to bribe me into writing a blog post on them if you work on something I care about.
15:02	sdegutis	callen: I work on nothing to be cared about, and even if I did, I come with no credibility that would make such a project seem feasible.
15:03	sdegutis	callen: All I can do is show a working product that people may care about, but by that point the deed's already done and it's too late for such a blog post.
15:04	callen	sdegutis: that's my point, you'd have to put aside other things and work on something I care about to win the labor it would take me to write a blog post explaining zippers.
15:04	callen	labor-for-labor trade.
15:04	sandbags	but how long would he have to work on it for? :)
15:05	callen	sandbags: that's a matter of negotiation and figuring out which item on my to-do list he wanted to do.
15:05	sdegutis	callen: Are you content with your Clojure editor?
15:06	callen	sdegutis: I'm an old-timer Emacs user, what do you think?
15:06	sdegutis	callen: Then you won't care about my project. So there's nothing left to do but part ways.
15:08	etehtsea	https://gist.github.com/etehtsea/ec7fca0f9539a0e398f7 why concat causes stackoverflow?
15:09	callen	sdegutis: well you're not going to get my labor for free. :P
15:09	sdegutis	callen: Then I'll have to read the docs myself. And if I figure it out, I'll probably have to write a blog post about it.
15:11	sdegutis	Actually I might not even need zippers.
15:11	callen	I've seen a lot of people write code that got them halfway to zippers, wasting a lot of time in the process.
15:12	sdegutis	Considering my tree-building phase is actually 2 steps, I'll probably need to rebuild the tree instead of just modifying the node that changed.
15:12	sdegutis	But the tree-builder will get called about 10 times per second, so it needs to be efficient and fast. Hmm.
15:14	noncom	is there a way to save the state of the whole clojure environment?
15:14	noncom	and then restore it...?
15:15	callen	noncom: you want smalltalk/CL style images? god help you.
15:15	sdegutis	noncom: Why do you want that?
15:16	noncom	yeah, i guess that kind of thing. i would explore the possibility to clone the environment on multiple computers
15:16	noncom	so it would be the same one.
15:16	nDuff	etehtsea: the literal (not Clojure-y, not efficient, but smallest-change) answer is to use (vec (last parts)) instead of just (last parts)
15:16	noncom	i can imagine doing run-time sync, but what about if i am to rise a new node
15:20	nDuff	etehtsea: ...you could use (doall last-parts) in the same way.
15:20	etehtsea	nDuff or smth like this (mapcat vec [(first parts) [e] (last parts)])
15:20	etehtsea	nDuff, thanks
15:21	augustl	noncom: the closest thing I can think of is to get the environment to where you want it, and fork the processes from that, and use the forked processes for actual work
15:21	augustl	that won't store the env to disk of course
15:21	noncom	ideally i would like to transfer it over network :)
15:22	augustl	should be possible to model your system so all state is stored as clojure values, which is easy to serialize
15:22	noncom	right, and the program part can be transfered as sources
15:22	augustl	then again, stuff like databases is typically the solution to these kinds of problems :)
15:23	noncom	yeah
15:26	nDuff	etehtsea: ...but yeah -- it's not the initial concat that's overflowing the stack, but the attempt to realize the concat-based lazy sequence.
15:38	augustl	is there any generic library around for doing a immutable data structure that is implemented with periodic merges, rather than the STM's approach of merging immediately? Not sure if my quesiton actually makes any sense.. Mostly thinking of the way datomic keeps a tx log and merges the tx-es into the datomic data structure periodically, for performance.
15:39	augustl	I've never written any code like that so for all I know there's no generic way to do it anyway :)
15:41	bbloom	augustl: such a merge is gonna be pretty data-specific
15:42	augustl	bbloom: that makes sense
15:43	gtrak	augustl sounds a lot like cache coherence, maybe that's a useful way to think about it?
15:44	augustl	gtrak: I'll look that up, thanks :)
15:44	hyPiRion	augustl: You can do it the other way around though. The concurrent hash tries by Bagwell are mutable, but gives you the possibility to take snapshots. So instead of doing periodic merges, you do periodic snapshots.
15:44	augustl	I like immutability :)
15:44	hyPiRion	Granted, this only makes sense if you are writing a lot more than you are reading
15:45	augustl	I see
15:45	augustl	afaik datomic has no mutable components for achieving its periodic merges. Not that Datomic is a prime example of write scale anyway.
15:48	coventry	I'd be grateful if someone could look this over before I submit a pull request. It is a patch to core.clj to sanity check fn's condition-map. https://github.com/coventry/clojure/compare/add-fn-condition-map-sanity-checking
15:49	dnolen	coventry: note you can't submit pull requests
15:50	coventry	Oh. :-)
15:52	coventry	Is it worth sending the patch to clojure-dev?
15:53	coventry	Oh, here we go. http://clojure.org/patches
15:53	mdrogalis	Can ask the Clojure-dev mailing list if in doubt.
15:54	hyPiRion	you need to sign the CA to post there though, unless that has changed recently
15:54	dnolen	coventry: you need to send in a CA, open a ticket in a JIRA and attach a patch.
15:55	coventry	Thanks, everyone. Will do.
15:55	hyPiRion	You can, however, open a ticket in JIRA without a CA
15:56	squidz	what is the clojurescript type ChunkedCons? it isn't supposed to support next?
15:57	squidz	I mean is it supposed to support he protocol INext ? I'm not sure what the type is supposed to be
15:58	noncom	is there a way to know all namespaces that are currently loaded into a clojure system?
15:59	dnolen	squidz: it doesn't support INext which probably an oversight
15:59	squidz	okay so it is supposed to support it?
16:01	mdrogalis	noncom: ,(doc all-ns)
16:01	mdrogalis	I dont know how to use clojurebot :(
16:01	noncom	,(doc all-ns)
16:01	clojurebot	"([]); Returns a sequence of all namespaces."
16:01	dnolen	squidz: probably, http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-585
16:01	hyPiRion	mdrogalis: ##()
16:01	lazybot	⇒ ()
16:01	mdrogalis	Ah D:
16:01	dnolen	squidz: what were you doing where you wanted this?
16:01	dnolen	squidz: also how are you calling next?
16:01	noncom	## is the syntax for inline to-be-evals?
16:01	dnolen	squidz: next directly or through the protocol?
16:02	noncom	,(all-ns)
16:02	clojurebot	(#<Namespace clojure.uuid> #<Namespace user> #<Namespace clojure.core> #<Namespace sandbox> #<Namespace clojure.repl> ...)
16:02	dnolen	squidz: next directly or through the -next protocol fn, rather
16:02	noncom	cool!
16:03	squidz	dnolen: here is the error I am getting https://www.refheap.com/18332 that is outputted from google chrome
16:03	dobry-den	Can anyone point me in the right direction if I have a CLI blog.jar utility that I want people to be able to download and invoke like "blog new blogname". how would i get around invocation like `java -jar blog.jar new blogname`.
16:04	dnolen	squidz: yes, but what is the code that causes the error?
16:05	dobry-den	Or I guess does anyone know of a Homebrew package that wraps a .jar that I can look at
16:06	squidz	dnolen: I still have to try and find a minimal example that reproduces it
16:06	squidz	that is not dependent on other libraries etc.
16:07	xeqi	dobry-den: you could create an executable that does the call for you, like a shell script and .exe equivalent
16:09	dobry-den	xeqi: of course. thanks.
16:09	dobry-den	`blog` would just be a function that sends commands to an underlying .jar
16:18	squidz	dnolen: i'm not sure why the ChunkedCons is being created. It is from core.async channel that contains holds json data
16:20	dnolen	squidz: what else is in the stack trace? something must be calling -next
16:21	squidz	dnolen: forgot to paste the stack trace here it is https://www.refheap.com/18332
16:22	dnolen	squidz: what 10953, what's the code there?
16:24	cored	hello
16:24	squidz	dnolen: https://www.refheap.com/18332
16:28	dnolen	squidz: what is the name of the fn that code is in :)
16:28	squidz	dnolen: core.hash_set
16:37	squidz	dnolen: if you figure out a fix, can you let me know so that I can use it until it is merged into the next clojruescript version
16:40	vmarcinko	hello, just a clojure noob question... i finished the books on clojure, and i mostly udnertsnad the syntax, but now i want to find out how to best architect the application. In my (until now OO) apps, I usually distinguish in my mind between command and query methods on my servcie layer. Commands have side-effects. In clojure, or maybe it should gbe general rule, it is good to try to separate side-effects of such
16:40	vmarcinko	command functions in such way that one should try to have as bigger piece of that function body as pure functions, and then, at the very end, to perform side-effect function, right?
16:41	vmarcinko	in other words, body of such command functions should be:
16:42	vmarcinko	some-pure-fn1
16:42	vmarcinko	some-pure-fn2
16:42	vmarcinko	some-pure-fn3
16:42	vmarcinko	and then...
16:42	dnolen	squidz: your bug should go away in next release, hash-set has change
16:42	vmarcinko	side-effect-fn
16:42	dnolen	squidz: still ChunkedCons should probably implement INext to avoid this altogether
16:43	squidz	dnolen: okay is there anything I can do to get my code working until the next release?
16:44	dnolen	squidz: what are you passing to set? a large vector?
16:45	squidz	yes exactly
16:46	squidz	dnolen: but I it needs to be a set because I use interesection with the results
16:47	dnolen	squidz: are you using 1859?
16:48	squidz	1859?
16:48	dnolen	squidz: what version of ClojureScript
16:49	squidz	oh i'm not sure, is there a quick way to find out?
16:50	dnolen	squidz: you should specify it explicitly
16:50	dnolen	squidz: in :dependencies in project.clj, [org.clojure/clojurescript "0.0-1859"] is what you should be using
16:51	dnolen	squidz: it would help if you can confirm this issue exists in that version
16:51	squidz	okay
16:51	dnolen	squidz: make sure to remove an intermediate compiled artifacts, rm -rf target or whatever
16:52	squidz	I assume a lein clean lein cljsbuild clean will remove everything
16:52	patchwork	vmarcinko: Yes in general, I try to separate functions with side effects from pure functions as much as possible, and wait until the last possible moment to impose side effects. Your approach seems sound if you need side effects, but also you could just have all of the pure stuff happening in one function and pass off the result to another function that does side effects
16:53	squidz	i'm not sure whether I was using an externally built version of clojurescript or maybe a verson provided by lein cljsbuild (if it does that)
16:54	vmarcinko	patchwork: but what if I need to have result of some side-effecting function in the middle of some top level business function, so I could continue to do the processing? is it normal then to have this top level fucntion body something like:
16:54	vmarcinko	some-pure-fn1
16:54	vmarcinko	side-effect-fn1
16:54	vmarcinko	some-pure-fn2
16:55	vmarcinko	final-side-effect-fn?
16:55	dnolen	squidz: probably whatever cljsbuild pulls in, fortunately that behavior is not long for this world
16:55	patchwork	vmarcinko: Sure, as long as you encapsulate as much as you can in the pure functions
16:55	squidz	dnolen: seems to have not changed. Is there a way to view the version being used. And will specifying the version in my projects dependencies take precedence over lein cljsbuild
16:56	patchwork	vmarcinko: Once you are on the business layer there is likely to be a lot of side effects, but you can still design most of your code to be transformations and then execute your side effects with the results of these pure transformations
16:56	vmarcinko	patchwork: i know that its good to separate side-effect fns from the pure ones, but my question was more is it good practice to try to pull this side-effecting functions to surface (upper layers) as much a s possible?
16:57	patchwork	vmarcinko: Yes, it is
16:57	dnolen	squidz: what you specify takes precedence.
16:57	patchwork	delay your side effects as long as possible
16:57	vmarcinko	ok, thanx
16:58	squidz	dnolen: okay so I specified version 0.0.1859, and lein seems to have downloaded it and be using it, but the problem isn't any different
16:59	vmarcinko	patchwork: though i dunno if it goes somewhat against layering principle, because I dunno if top-level business function should care about some side-effects because these side-effects should maybe best be hidden from top-layers, no?
16:59	dnolen	squidz: ok I can repro
16:59	dnolen	squidz: I'll try to push another release soon
16:59	dnolen	squidz: a minimal case is this, (set (map inc (into [] (range 100))))
16:59	dnolen	squidz: to avoid you need to convert your result into a vector before you call set
17:00	squidz	ah okay, is it the size of the vector that makes a difference
17:01	sdegutis	Is there a side-effecty variation of (binding) that's thread-local?
17:02	dnolen	squidz: no, it's the ChunkedSeq/Cons results from calling a seq operation on a vector
17:02	dnolen	ChunkedCons just doesn't implement INext, that's what needs fixing.
17:02	squidz	dnolen: okay, thank you for the help, converting to a vector before set seems to quickfix for now.
17:05	sdegutis	Oh, looks like (set!) is what I want.
17:19	asteve	so, I've been fighting Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.RT.mapUniqueKeys([Ljava/lang/Object;)Lclojure/lang/IPersistentMap; for a few days now
17:19	asteve	I'm attempting to upgrade a project from 1.2 t .15.1
17:19	asteve	to 1.5.1*
17:20	asteve	lein deps :tree shows [org.clojure/clojure "1.5.1"]
17:21	sandbags	hrmm... i'm trying to use hiccup/html passing it a vector of elements i've built up. But it's expecting its arguments to be passed directly, not in a vector ... however html is a macro so I can't use apply. anyone know any tricks for handling this situation?
17:21	sdegutis	Some of Clojure's features seem like they were invented to make Datomic work, like tagged literals.
17:21	sandbags	i.e. it wants (html [:p "foo"] [:p "bar"]) rather than (html [[:p "foo"] [:p "bar"]])
17:21	technomancy	sdegutis: nonsense; every app needs uuid literals
17:22	hyPiRion	sandbags: You sure about that? I'd think both works just fine
17:22	technomancy	for example, I use uuid literals to identify all the factorials I generate in production
17:22	hyPiRion	*both would work
17:22	sandbags	hyPiRion: well not 100% but i tried it and got an error about [ some long vector ] not being an element, maybe i did it wrong
17:23	sdegutis	technomancy: true but do they need to be stored in EDN?
17:23	coventry	asteve: What version of clojure is reported by "lein repl" in that project?
17:23	riley526	sandbags hyPiRion: I remember (html [[:p "asdf"] [:p "qwerty"]]) not working for me either.
17:24	hyPiRion	riley526: yeah, confirmed that it's not working here either.
17:24	asteve	coventry: REPL-y 0.1.9 and Clojure 1.5.1
17:24	sandbags	hyPiRion: https://gist.github.com/mmower/4a5840897b6c0c8f96c5
17:24	technomancy	sdegutis: well technically they don't but the fibonacci ones definitely do
17:25	sdegutis	touché
17:25	sandbags	i guess maybe i could use a macro to do this?
17:25	sandbags	using the splicing quote?
17:25	sandbags	is this... a legitimate time to reach for a macro? :)
17:25	riley526	sandbags: I think I ended up using (into [:base-elem] ...) to work around it
17:26	riley526	really annoying though
17:26	sandbags	riley526: i'm not sure i understand
17:26	sandbags	or, rather, i am sure that i don't :)
17:27	sandbags	the problem seems to be that i can't pass a vector at all
17:27	sandbags	so i'm not seeing how injecting elements into one gets me further?
17:27	coventry	asteve: Do you get the same error if you run the code in the repl?
17:27	riley526	sandbags: In my case, I often wanted to run (html) on a vector of other elements I had compiled, but (html) doesn't take a vector. so I compiled the elements into a parent element instead of a bare vector.
17:28	asteve	coventry: it's a storm project and I don't fully understand how to run it locally
17:28	riley526	sandbags: doesn't solve the problem, but it's what I ended up with.
17:29	sandbags	ok, thx
17:29	riley526	(html (into [:div] [[:p "abc"] [:p "def"]]))
17:30	gfredericks	"The reader, and the Clojure data representations, have utility on their own in many of the same contexts one might use XML or JSON etc."
17:30	hyPiRion	sandbags, riley526: There's a better solution, actually. Try out (html (seq [[:p "asdf"] [:p "qwerty"]]))
17:30	coventry	asteve: Oh, so "lein repl" is not executing in the context where you're getting the error? Try (core/spit)ing clojure-version to somewhere you can read it, from that context.
17:30	hyPiRion	I knew it was possible, but didn't know the incantation
17:31	riley526	hyPiRion: oh snap
17:31	riley526	well there you go
17:31	noprompt	riley526, sandbags you could always use a list instead of a vector and that should also work.
17:31	sandbags	hyPiRion: oh ho ho
17:31	sandbags	nice, thank you
17:31	noprompt	(list [:el "foo"] [:el "bar"])
17:32	riley526	I'm practically brand new to hiccup and clojure in general, so most of these simple solutions don't come naturally yet.
17:32	noprompt	not as nice as a vector though but i think that should work if i remember the source correctly
17:32	sandbags	hyPiRion's (seq <vec>) seems to work also
17:32	coventry	asteve: Actually, (clojure-version) (it's a function.
17:32	asteve	coventry: thanks, doing that now
17:32	sandbags	which allows me to work with vectors and just convert at the end
17:33	noprompt	oh snap! multi-term! yay, now i (almost) never need to leave emacs.
17:38	rurumate_	what happens in clojurescript when I define a var with a name that contains a minus sign, like (defn ^:export sudo-make-payment-button [] (alert "Syntax error")) ? The - is special syntax in javascript no?
17:40	noprompt	rurumate_: the symbol would be rendered as sudo_make_payment_button in javascript.
17:40	sandbags	okay this is nice... it's certainly taken me a few hours but i've done some useful work in Clojure this afternoon that I'd normally have done in Ruby. Learned quite a bit, and have some reasonable I think (for my level of experience) code to show for it.
17:40	noprompt	sandbags: that's how i started. :)
17:41	sandbags	it feels good not to be defining methods on object and pretending I have functions :)
17:43	noprompt	rurumate_: you also notice symbols like create-user! will be rendered as create_user_BANG_ etc.
17:44	rurumate_	noprompt: yo thanks mate
17:45	noprompt	rurumate_: yo dawg i gacho back bra' ;)
17:45	noprompt	:
17:45	noprompt	:P
17:47	noprompt	rurumate_: seriously though, it's definitely worth looking at the emitted code in with, say, :optimizations :whitespace.
17:50	coventry	Hmm, there's a whole bunch of special forms mentioned in ##(map (comp name first) (seq clojure.lang.Compiler/specials)) which do not appear in <clojure.org/special_forms>. Glad I found that snippet.
17:50	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! class clojure.lang.Compiler is bad!
17:51	coventry	...and no easy way to tell which arguments to them get evaluated and which are special, without reading Compiler.java, for many of them.
17:51	parametrization	howdy all.
17:53	callen	parametrization: hi
17:54	noprompt	callen: hi
17:54	callen	noprompt: hi
17:56	rurumate_	sandbags: are you only pretending to have functions?
17:56	parametrization	I've just picked up a tiny project at work, done in clojure. Most of my work involves java, javascript, and the occasional shell or perl script. I'm trying to figure out what folks use for development. I don't think I'm going to have the time to learn the EMACS sufficiently, so I'm wondering if anyone uses something other than the EMACS? I'm using lein, if that makes a difference.
17:57	noprompt	this looks so awesome http://oldcomputers.net/oldads/80s/apf.jpg
17:57	brehaut	coventry: two points: i dont thing they are all special forms, just special (eg, i dont think & is a special form, but it is special), and some of the special forms are actually implemented with form* names and tehn have macros wrapping them up with all the swanky features we want
17:57	sandbags	rurumate_: unless we're arguing over the semantics of a method as a function with an implied self, yes
17:57	talios	mourning brehaut
17:57	brehaut	hat talios
17:58	brehaut	s/hat/hey/
17:58	nDuff	parametrization: editor choice is covered in the annual survey, if you want to get an idea of what folks use.
17:58	nDuff	parametrization: ...emacs _is_ far and away the home of the best tooling, but it's certainly not your only choice.
17:58	nDuff	parametrization: http://cemerick.com/2012/08/06/results-of-the-2012-state-of-clojure-survey/
17:58	talios	ide sluts all of you ;)
17:58	rurumate_	sandbags: I'd rather have functions
17:58	parametrization	Thanks, I don't know much about this community ATM, I'll click the link and RTFM for a bit, thanks!
17:59	brehaut	coventry: the docs should probably should mention the deftype stuff however
17:59	parametrization	Thanks nDuff.
17:59	sandbags	rurumate_: apparently so would I since, despite my liking Ruby very much, I am here in Clojureland
18:00	rurumate_	sandbags: what drove you away from glorious rubyland?
18:00	coventry	brehaut: Thanks, good point. I'm trying to make a macro which wraps everything evaluable in the macroexpansion up in a tracing form, so this list is actually more useful to me than the clojure.org/special_forms page. I agree that that page is pretty good for regular clojure use.
18:01	rurumate_	dont they have functions there?
18:01	sandbags	rurumate_: nothing drove me away, i still like Ruby, but I was drawn to clojure as a Lisp i might actually use
18:01	sandbags	and by a desire to really understand FP
18:01	noprompt	parametrization: the clojure community is full of good people. your in a safe place.
18:01	sandbags	i've been an OO programmer for longer than i care to remember, maybe i'm feeling the straightjacket was a little too tight
18:02	sandbags	at least it is now... we'll see over time
18:02	noprompt	parametrization: people here are typically very friendly and helpful.
18:02	sandbags	if Clojure ever gets its "Rails" and the influx of bodies that come with it that'll be an interesting test of community
18:03	parametrization	noprompt I was just telling my team about the lack of condescension up in here :)
18:03	rurumate_	sandbags: I heard they write the opening paren after the function name in non-lisp-land..
18:04	sandbags	rurumate_: in ruby-land they often do not write the paren at all!
18:05	noprompt	sandbags: it'd be a shame if that's what it would take to get people to pay more attention to it.
18:05	rurumate_	I've heard that parens are very rare in pythonland..
18:05	coventry	"Here's zero bucks, kid. Go hit gnu.org and buy yourself a real development system."
18:05	sandbags	noprompt: that's life
18:05	sandbags	noprompt: gravity is as gravity does
18:06	noprompt	sandbags: at least it'd be a shame to me. it bums me out when people won't try out a new language unless 90% of the thinking they'd ever have to do is already done for them.
18:06	callen	sandbags: it's already easy to make web apps in Clojure, you don't really need a shake-n-bake framework or discrete culture around such a framework to accomplish the same things.
18:06	sandbags	noprompt: that's not why i think Rails became popular but that's probably off-topic here
18:06	callen	as a result, people just kinda do their thing.
18:06	sandbags	callen: it was already easy to make web apps in Ruby
18:07	callen	they share knowledge through various channels, people get educated, but it's a bag of tools. Not one big "thing" you have to buy into whole-sale.
18:07	sandbags	but my point was not "Rails" as in Rails but "Rails" as in an app/framework that is widely popular and draws a lot of attention
18:07	callen	sandbags: pre-rails Ruby and the current state of Clojure are not comparable at all.
18:07	sandbags	callen: i was not comparing them so that's fine
18:07	callen	Clojure as a community embraces libraries that stand alone. There wasn't a good library ecosystem for making web apps in Ruby back then.
18:08	sandbags	yes sorry maybe i wasn't clear
18:08	callen	it's a mistake to believe that because things like Sinatra, which isn't Rails, exist now, that they somehow existed before Rails did. They didn't.
18:08	sandbags	i wasn't implying that Clojure needs an equivalent to Rails the web framework
18:08	noprompt	sandbags: the down side of text. we can't here your voice or see your facial expressions.
18:08	callen	Ruby web + the usual attendant libraries that come with writing web apps was a wasteland.
18:08	callen	I only used Ruby for dev-ops back then and I could tell it was bad.
18:09	callen	Rails, for all people like to complain about it, brought a lot of lifeblood into the Ruby community.
18:09	sdegutis	Where does set! live?
18:09	callen	sdegutis: in the gateless gate, through which one must pass.
18:09	sandbags	callen: which is more the point i was driving at
18:09	noprompt	(var set!)
18:09	noprompt	,(var set!)
18:09	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: set! in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:09	brehaut	sdegutis: its a special form
18:09	brehaut	sdegutis: it exists in the compiler
18:09	callen	sandbags: my point is that the conditions that precipitated and necessitated Rails do not exist in the Clojure community.
18:09	sdegutis	brehaut: oh, neat.
18:09	sandbags	and what the side-effects of that life-blood might be
18:10	noprompt	brehaut: well that's good to know. :)
18:10	sdegutis	And (set!) works just like (binding)?
18:10	callen	given that the conditions for such are nonexistent, it's not a very interesting question at all
18:10	sandbags	yes okay, let's leave it there
18:10	sdegutis	With the obvious difference of being side-effecty.
18:10	asteve	ClassCastException java.lang.Class cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn user/eval1144 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
18:10	asteve	so, where to begin with this one?
18:10	brehaut	sandbags: heres some tools in clojure that draw in people in the way rails did: core.logic, core.async, clojurescript, datomic…
18:11	callen	brehaut: yep. Datomic is why we're getting Clojure at my company.
18:11	sandbags	brehaut: i don't have any numbers but i'd find that surprising
18:11	callen	sandbags: how long have you been writing Clojure?
18:11	sandbags	but i'm here and i have no skin in this game so :)
18:11	brehaut	sandbags: theres also all the stuff in clojure core, persistent structures, STM, etc etc
18:12	noprompt	callen: "lifebood"
18:12	brehaut	sandbags: dont confuse a lack of library for _your_ niche interest for everyone elses
18:12	sandbags	i suspect we're talking at cross-purposes
18:12	sandbags	brehaut: ?
18:12	callen	sandbags: how long have you been writing Clojure?
18:12	sandbags	callen: on and off i guess about 3 months
18:13	callen	sandbags: yeah, best to let this conversation die then.
18:13	callen	sandbags: you don't have a frame of reference for where the community's been or where it's headed.
18:13	sandbags	fine by me
18:13	brehaut	sandbags: your are arguing that something rails-esque (big, shiny, attractive) should exist to draw people to clojure. Im saying that there are a wide range of those things already, they just may not be the specific shiny thing you are drawn to
18:13	noprompt	sandbags: yes let us drain the so-called "lifeblood" from the matter.
18:13	callen	brehaut: stop. seriously.
18:13	brehaut	callen: you are right. i should be working
18:14	callen	brehaut: I don't care what you do alternately, I'd just prefer to avoid bikeshedding in this channel if possible.
18:16	noprompt	c'mon you guys. let's not fuss. we just told that other guy that we are nice people.
18:16	sdegutis	One great thing about Clojure is that I understand everything that's going on.
18:16	noprompt	you're making making me look liar.
18:16	noprompt	lol
18:16	sdegutis	I love that about Clojure code I read and write.
18:16	callen	sdegutis: really?
18:16	rasmusto	sdegutis: everything is a strong word
18:16	sdegutis	When I see a given function, I usually don't have to dive very deep to know what it's doing.
18:17	riley526	ah, "referential transparency"
18:17	callen	you'd be surprised how often a library has dark corners that aren't referentially transparent.
18:17	sdegutis	I mean besides domain-specific functions. If it uses those, there's obviously no way of knowing what it's doing without digging.
18:18	sdegutis	But I love that the vast majority of code uses functions straight out of clojure.core that I already know.
18:18	sandbags	sdegutis: do you mean that there's less that is implicit in your code?
18:19	noprompt	callen: yes, i've seen these "dark corners" you speak of. even the syntax highlighting changes.
18:19	rasmusto	sdegutis: I guess "knowing how the functions are used" is a bit different than knowing everything that's going on under the hood
18:19	sdegutis	And the transformation-functions mentality means any third-party lib's doc-strings are usually plenty sufficient to see how it fits into the code I'm reading.
18:19	callen	noprompt: libraries often have to commit deeper evils in order to be nice to use.
18:20	noprompt	callen: yes. like loop/recur, transients, and the dreaded ^:dynamic var.
18:21	noprompt	so dark are these that poison the hearts of men.
18:21	callen	loop/recur isn't evil.
18:21	callen	transients aren't evil either, they just require a good reason to be used.
18:21	riley526	why is loop/recur evil?
18:21	callen	noprompt: you lack imagination. I could show you such wonderful horrors.
18:21	callen	riley526: it's not.
18:21	callen	I just said it isn't.
18:21	technomancy	riley526: it's low-level
18:21	technomancy	it doesn't belong in application-level logic
18:22	noprompt	riley526: it's not. i'm just heckling callen.
18:22	riley526	I can see the low-level argument
18:22	callen	what constitutes low-level/high-level necessary/unnecessary depends on what you're writing.
18:22	callen	If you're aphyr or ztellman, you probably have a good reason.
18:22	callen	if you're not, then you don't.
18:23	callen	really simple actually.
18:23	riley526	a noob clojurian like myself will reach for it all the time though
18:23	riley526	unfortunately.
18:23	callen	that hasn't been my experience.
18:23	ztellman	as much fun as it is to be the poster boy for questionable Clojure usage
18:23	callen	ztellman: but you have an excuse, so it's okay.
18:23	ztellman	I'd tend towards the answer of use loop/recur when it's simpler than function composition
18:23	ztellman	which it is, sometimes
18:23	technomancy	loop/recur means either "I need crazy perf" or "I haven't thought through my problem in terms of sequences"
18:24	technomancy	or "I'm doing I/O" maybe
18:24	noprompt	riley526: no need to talk down about yourself. use the best tools in your toolbox. nothing wrong with doing what you know best.
18:24	ztellman	sometimes it's more indirect to express operations in terms of sequence operators
18:24	noprompt	riley526: unless of course that's, you know, meth or something.
18:24	ztellman	technomancy: do you disagree?
18:24	technomancy	ztellman: can't say I've had that experience
18:24	noprompt	technomancy: "crazy perf". i love it.
18:24	riley526	noprompt: lol, sure. I'm just recognizing inexperience.
18:25	technomancy	but I've been out of the loop for a while
18:25	ztellman	technomancy: especially when you're updating an accumulator that drives behavior
18:25	technomancy	ztellman: usually the source of updates can be expressed as a sequence though
18:25	technomancy	like having a board game as reducing a board over a seq of moves
18:25	technomancy	even if the moves haven't happened yet
18:26	noprompt	i could definitely use some tips on how to eliminate loop/recur stuff with the new garden version i'm working on. :S
18:26	technomancy	(defn go [] (reduce play (init-board) (interleave player-1-moves player-2-moves)))
18:26	technomancy	(though you can't actually do that in go because of ko)
18:27	ztellman	haha, I'm dreading going back to my go implementation
18:27	ztellman	that code got messy in places
18:27	ztellman	mostly for performance reasons, though
18:27	noprompt	technomancy: what would you call loop/recur + transients? "perf madness"?
18:28	technomancy	noprompt: the silver lining of the cloud that is JVM startup time is that I almost never need to care about perf in leiningen
18:28	technomancy	any optimizations I make will have the looming spectre of startup time shadowing their glory
18:28	dissipate__	technomancy: time to go to another language?
18:29	noncom	noprompt: i had these thoughts. i would call it "use java here".
18:29	technomancy	I can count on one finger the number of times I've turned on warn-on-reflection
18:29	technomancy	dissipate__: well, yes: https://github.com/technomancy/grenchman/blob/master/grench.ml
18:30	dissipate__	technomancy: oh hell no. why not haskell?
18:30	technomancy	dissipate__: https://mobile.twitter.com/technomancy/status/367661164433383424?p=v
18:31	TimMc	pffft
18:31	dissipate__	technomancy: you got me there. :P
18:32	technomancy	ocaml lets you distribute smaller native binaries too, but unfortunately that's only true if you don't use the Jane Street libs
18:32	technomancy	this program is nearly all IO anyway
18:35	sdegutis	What's a good language for when you want to write something quickly that executes quickly and starts up quickly and can do high-level things like encode/decode JSON and such?
18:37	technomancy	OCaml is kinda crappy at JSON actually
18:37	brehaut	technomancy: thats ok, most languages are
18:37	hiredman	needs type classes
18:40	s4muel	Hi all...I'm working with a crappy nested datastructure and wondering if this is the 'idiomatic' way to arrive at the result. https://www.refheap.com/18334
18:41	technomancy	sdegutis: some of that depends on whether you can assume an existing runtime
18:41	s4muel	it is the result i want, it just seems kind of messy. But then again, I'm new here.
18:43	technomancy	sdegutis: if you can't, racket would be my suggestion; you can get a 700kb distributable that starts in 200ms without the headache of reading json from a static type system
18:45	noprompt	s4muel: i don't see anything "wrong" with that. of course it really depends on the problem you are trying to solve.
18:46	noprompt	s4muel: if you're using 1.5.1+ you can use mapv instead of the (vec (map combo
18:46	dnolen	s4muel: why is the latter data desirable over the former in your case?
18:47	s4muel	noprompt: thanks, that's the kind of thing i was looking for.
18:48	sandbags	thanks for all the help earlier & conversation folks. g'night
18:51	s4muel	dnolen: Going into a different structure with different keys, etc. This seemed easier to do some destructuring in one function and then go from there with anything else I have to write. It captures all the data I'm interested in.
18:52	dnolen	s4muel: so you want to access your data structure via numeric indexes?
18:52	s4muel	Although it might be better to create another map.
18:53	dnolen	s4muel: yeah that's what I was wondering
18:53	s4muel	I just thought about that -- I was focusing more on the destructuring of the original response
18:53	s4muel	Thanks :)
19:32	powrtoc	I'm playing with core.async at the REPL and wondering why if I (def c (chan 1)) then run (<!! c) and press CTRL-C to interrupt the repl in emacs... next if I do (future (>!! c 10) (prn "done")) it prints done... which seems to indicate the channel hasn't synchronised and has lost my message as the next read op (<!! c) blocks immediately
19:32	powrtoc	any ideas?
19:32	powrtoc	does core.async handle interrupts/threads properly?
20:03	lgs32a	did anybody here get clojurec to work?
20:04	lgs32a	e. g. pass the tests?
20:05	llambda	what's the best way to reference a local clojure project as a dep in another project? preferably via lein :)
20:05	lgs32a	llambda: lein install
20:05	llambda	cool, thanks
20:05	lgs32a	then simply use it in project.clj under dependencies
20:06	llambda	also i'll be distributing this to my team via a private repo on github. what's the best way for them to use it in their projects?
20:06	llambda	clone and do the same or is there an easier way?
20:06	lgs32a	hmmmz a maven repository?
20:15	coventry	llambda: It's also useful to symlink the local project in checkouts/ under the dependent project. That way, lein immediately picks up changes. https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/TUTORIAL.md#checkout-dependencies
20:24	llambda	coventry: thank you, that's very helpful!
20:28	squidz	something like [{:key "a" :val "a"} {:key "b" :val "b"} {:key "c" :val "c"}] -> [[m1 m2] [m2 m3] [m1 m3]] where the m[i] are the three input maps
20:29	squidz	what would be a good way to get all possible combinations of an array of javascript object>? each javascript object looks like {key: a val: 1} and I want all non repeating combinations of an array of those types of objects
20:30	squidz	something like [{:key "a" :val "a"} {:key "b" :val "b"} {:key "c" :val "c"}] -> [[m1 m2] [m2 m3] [m1 m3]] where the m[i] are the three input maps
20:32	brehaut	,(let [l [{:key "a" :val "a"} {:key "b" :val "b"} {:key "c" :val "c"}]] (for [a l b l] [a b]))
20:32	clojurebot	([{:key "a", :val "a"} {:key "a", :val "a"}] [{:key "a", :val "a"} {:key "b", :val "b"}] [{:key "a", :val "a"} {:key "c", :val "c"}] [{:key "b", :val "b"} {:key "a", :val "a"}] [{:key "b", :val "b"} {:key "b", :val "b"}] ...)
20:33	brehaut	,(let [l [{:key "a" :val "a"} {:key "b" :val "b"} {:key "c" :val "c"}]] (for [a l b l :when (not= a b)] [a b]))
20:33	clojurebot	([{:key "a", :val "a"} {:key "b", :val "b"}] [{:key "a", :val "a"} {:key "c", :val "c"}] [{:key "b", :val "b"} {:key "a", :val "a"}] [{:key "b", :val "b"} {:key "c", :val "c"}] [{:key "c", :val "c"} {:key "a", :val "a"}] ...)
20:34	squidz	brehaut: yes that works when working with clojure datastructes but not clojurescript structures
20:34	squidz	i mean javascript objects
20:35	brehaut	squidz: you want javascript objects inside the seq?
20:36	noprompt	squidz: you could always use js->clj or write a custom macro. worse you could extend ILookup, etc to object.
20:36	squidz	yes the input are js objects and the output pairs need to be too
20:37	squidz	I had exaclty the example you have, but js-objects seem to be tricker with equality
20:37	noprompt	squidz: also remember you have the google closure libraries at your disposal too like goog.object etc.
20:38	squidz	I dont't want to convert if I can avoid it, like I said the input is already js objects and the output should be too
20:49	lgs32a	does somebody know a librabry that can parse http-link escapes like %20 to what they actually mean, e.g. space
20:52	lgs32a	nevermind, remembering .net.URI
20:55	coventry	,(do (defn & []) (defn silly-buggers [& args] [& args]) (silly-buggers))
20:55	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
20:56	callen	"SANBOX"
21:00	seangrov`	callen: It will never be fixed.
21:01	yedi	anyone know of a good article about how to do basic user authentucation in web apps? i've done it b4, but I want to know if there are certain best practices that i'm currently not aware of
21:01	callen	seangrov`: I actually submitted a PR to fix it.
21:01	technomancy	use bcrypt
21:01	callen	seangrov`: it got merged. it was never deployed.
21:02	technomancy	^ the extent of my knowledge
21:02	callen	yedi: use bcrypt. don't store important information in cookies without encryption.
21:02	callen	if you want to be really elite use scrypt.
21:02	yedi	scrypt works too right?
21:02	yedi	oh word
21:02	technomancy	delegate to another site with oauth if you can get away with it
21:03	callen	I...wouldn't do that.
21:03	callen	users tend to hate you if you force oauth on them without it being purposeful.
21:03	callen	there needs to be a reason other than, "I refuse to write 4 lines of code for a login functionality"
21:05	yedi	4 lines of code is a little bit of an understatement,,,
21:05	coventry	Yeah, there's the password reset functionality.
21:16	tufflax	Is there a nicer way of doing (if x (conj xs x) xs)? x can never be false, just nil
21:20	bbloom	tufflax: that seems nice enough to me, but what about (cond-> xs x (conj x))
21:22	tufflax	bbloom: yeah maybe it is nice enough :p
21:22	bbloom	tufflax: i frequently define utility functions like these: (def conjs (fnil conj #{})) and (def conjv (fnil conj []))
21:23	bbloom	if you need that a bunch in one file, just make conjx or something
21:23	technomancy	callen: what about "I refuse to add a database to accommodate people who hate github"?
21:25	callen	technomancy: punish them by making your database an append log on disk.
21:25	callen	a naive implementation.
21:25	callen	technomancy: the more they use the service, the slower it gets (scanning the append log)
21:25	callen	if they complain? explain the above.
21:25	callen	yedi: is that a challenge?
21:26	callen	yedi: because if it's a challenge...
21:31	tufflax	bbloom: ok but that does not really solve my current problem, unless im missing something... :p
21:31	bbloom	tufflax: no, i was just saying that trivial functions like that aren't so bad to just assign names to them. just defn- and you're good
21:31	bbloom	tufflax: don't be afraid to factor out little functions even if they are only useful once :-)
21:32	tufflax	yeah i do that, usually in let/letfn though
21:32	xeqi	callen: I am interested to see how far you get in a user system with 4 lines
21:37	callen	xeqi: I could make a minimally functional login/auth, logout, session mgmt system for a web app in 4 lines.
21:37	xeqi	callen: password reset, password change, username change ?
21:38	xeqi	+ views
21:39	callen	don't move the goal post.
21:39	callen	here's a better proposal, "you have 4 lines. How much of a user mgmt system can you implement?"
21:39	xeqi	hmm, does oauth give those?
21:39	callen	not really, no.
21:39	callen	it's just login/auth @ Oauth2
21:39	callen	and I can replace that in 1 or 2 lines
21:40	callen	I can do logout and session management in 1 or 2 more lines.
21:40	callen	I think I could certainly replace OAuth2 in 4 lines of code for a single web app.
21:40	callen	easy-peesy.
21:40	callen	and by replace, I don't mean, "emulate the API", I mean, functionally replace the purpose of it with an in-house login/auth
21:41	technomancy	you get password reset with oauth
21:41	technomancy	you even get 2fa now with github oauth
21:41	callen	that's...what...no.
21:41	callen	that
21:41	callen	is not oauth.
21:41	callen	that's vendor specific stuff related to their own account management
21:41	callen	oauth2 is a framework, it's not even a protocol. It doesn't even technically know what a password is beyond a vague notion of "credentials"
21:42	callen	all it handles is, "I'm a third party, and I need to know that 'Jane from Github' is in fact Jane from Github. Can you @Github tell me that they are who they say they are?"
21:42	callen	I'm going to tweet that now so people can understand OAuth.
21:43	callen	-12, fuck.
21:43	sdegutis	technomancy: noted, thanks
21:43	xeqi	.. so its an API that hooks into a system that already has password reset and change and views built
21:44	callen	xeqi: correctamunde.
21:44	callen	but the "purpose" of it is login/auth specifically
21:44	callen	because you're authenticating the person
21:44	callen	but you still have to manage the sessions and logout even if you use OAuth.
21:44	xeqi	certainly seems like the goal posts for an equivalent system should include those
21:44	technomancy	callen: if you use oauth from github, you get those benefits
21:46	callen	xeqi: you realize that because Clojure is a Lisp, I can ride the 4 line limitation straight to hell right?
21:46	technomancy	callen: no column limitation you mean? =P
21:47	xeqi	callen: you could do that with any language with multi statements per line
21:47	technomancy	ruby has a 5-line wiki
21:47	technomancy	(one of the lines is a shebang)
21:48	callen	http://viewsourcecode.org/why/redhanded/bits/batsmansFiveLineWiki.html
21:48	xeqi	technomancy: no `Redmine.new` and poof I have a wiki? awww
21:51	yedi	callen: well obviously
21:52	brehaut	technomancy: http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?ShortestWikiContest
21:52	brehaut	technomancy: no surprises but perl has 4 lines including shebang
21:53	asdf__	question for you all. Is there a quick/simple way to replace nils in a list with zeros?
21:54	brehaut	,(map #(if (nil? %) 0 %) [1 nil 2 nil 3])
21:54	clojurebot	(1 0 2 0 3)
21:54	technomancy	brehaut: well hello mister fancy pants
21:55	brehaut	asdf__: but for bonus marks ##(map (fnil identity 0) [1 nil 2 nil 3])
21:55	lazybot	⇒ (1 0 2 0 3)
21:55	asdf__	thanks. I should say that I really want to map multiply two sequences where there could be nils. So not necessarily replace the nils, just ignore them or something
21:56	brehaut	,(remove nil? [1 nil 2 nil])
21:56	clojurebot	(1 2)
21:57	brehaut	im not sure what you mean by map multiply
21:57	asdf__	not exactly, I'm looking for something like (reduce + (map * [1 nil 2 nil] [5 6 1 2])) that should end up as 7
21:58	brehaut	asdf__: fnil again
21:58	brehaut	,(apply + (map (fnil * 0 0) [1 nil 2 nil] [5 6 1 2])))
21:58	clojurebot	7
21:59	brehaut	,(doc fnil)
21:59	clojurebot	"([f x] [f x y] [f x y z]); Takes a function f, and returns a function that calls f, replacing a nil first argument to f with the supplied value x. Higher arity versions can replace arguments in the second and third positions (y, z). Note that the function f can take any number of arguments, not just the one(s) being nil-patched."
22:00	asdf__	ahh look at that. awesome
22:01	asdf__	quick thing then. difference between apply and reduce
22:01	brehaut	apply happens to be a tiny bit smarter with variadic functions
22:02	brehaut	the seq gets marshalled into something something varargs rather than something else wheres amalloy to explain it
22:02	gfredericks	clojurebot: where is amalloy to explain it
22:02	clojurebot	c'est bon!
22:07	asdf__	one more thing. you guys are always really helpful. way easier to ask questions here than google/stack overflow.
22:16	gfredericks	(inc #clojure)
22:16	lazybot	⇒ 5
22:30	amalloy	brehaut: wut
22:30	brehaut	amalloy: apply vs reduce for functions like +
22:30	gfredericks	amalloy: thank god you're here!
22:31	brehaut	amalloy: i know thres a reason, but ive comepletely mangled it in my remembering
22:31	amalloy	shrug i mean, reduce is marginally faster for +, because apply just delegates to reduce
22:31	amalloy	but for str, apply is way way faster than reduce
22:32	brehaut	oh. well there you go. i auto cargo culted and got it wrong
22:32	callen	I thought apply was really slow in some cases for some reason.
22:36	john2x	,(doc apply)
22:37	clojurebot	"([f args] [f x args] [f x y args] [f x y z args] [f a b c d ...]); Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending intervening arguments to args."
22:37	Scriptor	is it largely because apply handles multiple arities?
22:37	john2x	,(doc reduce)
22:37	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f val coll]); f should be a function of 2 arguments. If val is not supplied, returns the result of applying f to the first 2 items in coll, then applying f to that result and the 3rd item, etc. If coll contains no items, f must accept no arguments as well, and reduce returns the result of calling f with no arguments. If coll has only 1 item, it is returned and f is not called. If val i...
22:37	Scriptor	up to 4 or so arguments before the varargs
22:42	bja	I think ring+compojure+ring-edn is making me lazy
22:45	callen	bja: tragedy.
23:01	sdegutis	technomancy: found a real life picture of Leiningen: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4m4l77gfoykmp0m/leiningen.jpg
23:06	fkey	(for [x [1 2 3 4]] ((fn [y] (* y)) x)) works , but
23:06	fkey	(for [x [1 2 3 4]] ((fn [y] (.log js/console "test")) x)) doesn't...why is that so?
23:07	coventry	for returns a lazy sequence. Realize it with doall.
23:08	gfredericks	or use doseq instead
23:09	fkey	if i replace for with doseq, it logs to console only item, and never gain
23:09	fkey	is doseq lazy too?
23:09	sdegutis	,(doc doseq)
23:09	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs & body]); Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by \"for\". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil."
23:10	xeqi	doseq is not lazy
23:11	coventry	fkey: Does the console avoid printing repeat messages? You might try logging a message which varies with x.
23:11	fkey	coventry: will try that
23:11	fkey	coventry: i guess firebug was hiding some info from me, thanks
23:13	xeqi	fkey: also, you don't need to create an (fn [y] ...) and immediatly call it in a for/doseq. (doseq [x [1 2 3 4]] (.log js/console (str "test " x))) will work
23:14	fkey	xeqi: thanks, i originally tried that but was confused why the logging wasn't working heh
23:27	coventry	What's the common thread in catch, finally and "&"? They seem to all go through clojure.lang.Compiler/InvokeExpr.parse (they all have null in the "specials" map, so analyzeSeq sends forms starting with these to InvokeExpr.parse.) And the logic in InvokeExpr seems totally unrelated.
23:27	coventry	Don't need to understand this for my current project, but I am curious.
23:27	yedi	forgot clabango doesn't support else
23:27	yedi	really need to move to selmer
23:40	ddellacosta	I'm curious what people took away from Alex Miller's piece: http://tech.puredanger.com/2013/08/31/clojure-and-testing/
23:40	ddellacosta	I've been thinking about testing in Clojure a lot lately because I have a strong feeling that "I'm not doing it right."
23:41	ddellacosta	but it could be because the system I'm building now is badly designed
23:41	ddellacosta	which complicates my tests.