#clojure – 2013-08-30

2013-08-30

00:03	gdev	you put the util back in futile
00:03	futile	gdev: I'll take that as a complement.
00:04	futile	pun intended
00:23	futile	General question: What's a good way to save any kind of request (even POST requests), such that after you login, you can replay it exactly?
01:15	murtaza52	hi, I have two pred fns - fn1 and fn2, I want to create a fn which returns true if any of these pred is true
01:15	murtaza52	is there an idiomatic way to combine them
01:16	callen	(some? (map ...)) ?
01:20	murtaza52	callen: how will some work, it takes only one pred
01:29	`cbp	murtaza52: maybe
01:29	`cbp	um
01:30	jkkramer	murtaza52: some-fn
01:32	`cbp	oh i didnt know about some-fn i was gonna suggest (map (comp (partial some true?) (juxt fn1 fn2))) :-)
01:33	`cbp	without the map i guess
01:35	murtaza52	jkkramer: thanks
01:41	murtaza52	needed hep regarding lighttable
01:41	murtaza52	how do I see the doc of a fn in lightatble
01:42	murtaza52	in repl I can do (doc some), however this doesnt work in lighttab;e
02:55	supersym	murtaza52: you first need to require clojure.repl namespace
02:59	murtaza52	supersym: Yup this that. That displays it in the console, however is there an inbuilt way.
03:03	rurumate	Ok, I have a cloujurescript repl in emacs' inferior-lisp buffer connected to "lein trampoline cljsbuild repl-listen". How to get autocomplete working? Thanks!
03:04	murtaza52	(take 3 (iterate + 1)) -> (1 1 1)
03:04	murtaza52	shouldnt the output be (2 3 4)
03:05	murtaza52	The doc for iterate says (f (f x))
03:05	metellus	,(+ (+ 1))
03:05	clojurebot	1
03:05	rurumate	murtaza52: what is (+ (+ 1))
03:06	rurumate	murtaza52: you mean (iterate inc 1)
03:06	murtaza52	rurumate: thanks!
03:06	murtaza52	,(take 2 (iterate inc 1))
03:06	clojurebot	(1 2)
03:07	ordnungswidrig	,(take 3 #(partial (+ 1)))
03:07	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: sandbox$eval167$fn__168>
03:07	ordnungswidrig	,(take 3 (iterate #(partial (+ 1))))
03:07	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$iterate>
03:08	metellus	,(take 3 (partial (+ 1)))
03:08	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
03:08	ordnungswidrig	,(take 3 (iterate #(partial (+ 1)) 0))
03:08	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox$eval283$fn>
03:08	ordnungswidrig	,(take 3 (iterate #(partial (+ % 1)) 0))
03:08	clojurebot	(0 1 2)
03:10	ordnungswidrig	,(take 3 (iterate (partial (+ 1)) 0))
03:10	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
03:10	rurumate	Is there a good emacs mode for editing clojurescript?
03:10	ordnungswidrig	rurumate: why not clojure-mode?
03:11	metellus	ordnungswidrig: &(take 3 (iterate (partial + 1) 0))
03:11	rurumate	ordnungswidrig: autocomplete doesn't work, don't know why
03:11	metellus	,(take 3 (iterate (partial + 1) 0))
03:11	clojurebot	(0 1 2)
03:11	ordnungswidrig	metellus: thanks. I'm confused, early in the morning
03:11	ordnungswidrig	rurumate: ah. I don't know, never did much clojure-script.
03:13	TEttinger	why (partial + 1) ? it's the same as inc
03:15	SegFaultAX	Did I miss something? ##(take 3 (range))
03:15	lazybot	⇒ (0 1 2)
03:15	metellus	I assumed that the first was a toy example to show that iterate didn't do what the person expected
03:16	rurumate	is it possible to build fibonacci using iterate?
03:17	SegFaultAX	,(take 10 (map first (iterate (fn [[a b]] [b (+ a b)]) [0 1]))))
03:17	clojurebot	(0 1 1 2 3 ...)
03:18	rurumate	SegFaultAX: neat
03:19	TEttinger	##(nth 100 (map first (iterate (fn [[a b]] [b (+ a b)]) [0 1]))))
03:19	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
03:21	rurumate	nth is the other way round
03:21	TEttinger	yeah, I was testing in privmsg. ##(nth (map first (iterate (fn [[a b]] [b (+ a b)]) [0N 1N])) 500) needs BigIntegers too
03:21	lazybot	⇒ 139423224561697880139724382870407283950070256587697307264108962948325571622863290691557658876222521294125N
03:21	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: Just use +'
03:21	SegFaultAX	It will auto-promote
03:21	TEttinger	whaaaat
03:22	rurumate	oops
03:22	TEttinger	when did it stop autopromoting?
03:22	TEttinger	with normal ints I mean
03:23	rurumate	is this a performance thing?
03:23	SegFaultAX	1.3
03:23	SegFaultAX	I think
03:23	rurumate	+' is not on http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
03:23	TEttinger	yeah, http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/+' doesn't list it on 1.2 but yes on 1.3
03:23	SegFaultAX	rurumate: So?
03:24	rurumate	SegFaultAX: I'm a cheat sheet guy, so this affects me
03:24	SegFaultAX	rurumate: Usually you don't need auto-promoting... until you do.
03:24	TEttinger	only if you need arbitrary precision
03:24	SegFaultAX	Like for cute one line demonstrations of fibonacci and factorial.
03:26	TEttinger	what's the typical way of demonstrating factorial? ##(reduce *' (range 1 100)) ?
03:26	lazybot	⇒ 933262154439441526816992388562667004907159682643816214685929638952175999932299156089414639761565182862536979208272237582511852109168640000000000000000000000N
03:26	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: Or apply *'
03:26	rurumate	+' is also not here: http://clojuredocs.org/quickref/Clojure%20Core
03:26	rurumate	is there any page that lists all core functions
03:27	SegFaultAX	rurumate: core.clj
03:27	TEttinger	rurumate, that is odd. people have been talking about fixing up clojuredocs, it's just not written in clojure
03:28	TEttinger	I think it's... django?
03:28	SegFaultAX	Rails
03:28	TEttinger	ouch
03:28	rurumate	at least there should be some document that's generated from core.clj somewhere
03:28	SegFaultAX	Ugly rails at that.
03:28	TEttinger	rurumate, there is
03:29	TEttinger	http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.core-api.html
03:29	TEttinger	http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/+' since 1.0
03:29	TEttinger	wait that's not right
03:30	TEttinger	+ is claimed to be added in 1.2
03:30	TEttinger	must have switched it with +'
03:31	SegFaultAX	No, that's right.
03:31	SegFaultAX	+ was renamed to +'
03:31	TEttinger	yeah, makes sense
03:31	SegFaultAX	Because + isn't auto-promoting.
03:31	TEttinger	any more!
03:40	djcoin	SegFaultAX: Can't recall precisely the whole auto-promoting, it means converting an int to a double for example ? So with if you do (+ 1.0 3) you get an error ?
03:41	SegFaultAX	djcoin: Not quite
03:41	SegFaultAX	It means promoting integers to larger data types before overflow.
03:41	djcoin	Alright, thanks :) I had this in mind to
03:41	SegFaultAX	So like int to big int.
03:41	djcoin	too*
04:24	rhg135	Can someone please explain the make-node argument to clojure.zip/zipper
04:24	rhg135	I don't understand what it should return
04:25	SegFaultAX	Whoa http://www.davidgcohen.com/2013/08/29/a-shocking-accelerator-story-that-youll-need-to-read-twice/
04:25	SegFaultAX	Don't stick your startup in crazy.
04:28	ucb	I'm in need of a lib to write a TCP/UDP server. I guess Aleph is the one to go for first. Are there any alternatives out there?
04:30	clgv	ucb: do you really need the TCP/UDP level directly or do you just want to build a non http/rest protocol for your software?
04:30	ucb	clgv: latter :)
04:33	clgv	ucb: oh right netty came to my mind - this is what aleph uses as well^^
04:34	ucb	clgv: I did think of netty, but I'd rather not deal with the low levels until I absolutely have to. That's why I thought of aleph. IIRC there's a clojure wrapper for netty as well, right?
04:34	clgv	ucb: just to mention an unconvential idea. I built a message passing communication on top of RMI. after writing the RMI layer I didnt need to touch it at all but just exchange messages as clojure maps
04:34	ucb	that is a great idea
04:35	ucb	unfortunately I have to interface with python
04:35	clgv	ucb: oh right I didnt ask the platform question ;)
04:35	ucb	heh, no worries
04:35	ucb	I think I'll just go ahead and get started with aleph
04:36	clgv	usb: well I'd try aleph as high level library before testing a "pure" netty wrapper
04:36	ucb	thanks for the comments though
04:36	ucb	yeah
04:37	clgv	usb: another quick remark to the RMI idea. javas RMI also has options to expose a CORBA interface afaik, so that could be the cross-plattform option for that idea..
04:37	clgv	but I dont know if anyone really wants to use corba these days ;)
04:38	ucb	heh
04:39	SegFaultAX	What are you building?
04:40	ucb	I'm writing a replacement for graphite's relays
04:41	clgv	ucb: what is graphite?
04:41	xsyn	http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/29/mindful-parenting-carla-naumburg_n_3825425.html
04:41	SegFaultAX	clgv: It's a stat collection service.
04:41	SegFaultAX	Very awesome.
04:41	ucb	clgv: http://graphite.wikidot.com/
04:41	ucb	erk, probably not the most up to date, but you'll get the idea
04:41	SegFaultAX	rhg135: It creates new nodes from existing ones.
04:42	ucb	SegFaultAX: yeah. Thing is, the relays don't quite cope with our load unfortunately :(
04:42	clgv	usb: oh nice. just had a look at the screenshots of the web interface
04:42	SegFaultAX	ucb: Is this more than a statsd-esque aggregator?
04:42	SegFaultAX	How many measurements per second?
04:42	ucb	SegFaultAX: the relays?
04:43	SegFaultAX	h, relays.
04:43	ucb	IIRC we're doing a ~3K/s (can't remember from the top of my head)
04:43	SegFaultAX	Oh*
04:43	ucb	yeah, we're not replacing graphite, just the relays
04:43	SegFaultAX	statsd doesn't replace it, it's just a pre-aggregator.
04:43	SegFaultAX	It buckets measurements into 10 second intervals.
04:44	ucb	yes, sure
04:44	ucb	I guess I misinterpreted your question :)
04:44	rhg135	I read that but is it OK to return just the sequence of children?
04:44	ucb	the relays only do re-routing
04:44	SegFaultAX	rhg135: Depends on what you're zippering I guess.
04:44	SegFaultAX	rhg135: Look at how the other zippers are implemented.
04:45	rhg135	Where's some?
04:45	SegFaultAX	ucb: Sure. Still, that's a pretty decent volume. :)
04:45	SegFaultAX	rhg135: Look at the sauce for clojure.zip
04:45	rhg135	K
04:46	SegFaultAX	ucb: How many caches?
04:47	SegFaultAX	And are you using prefix shards or something more complicated?
04:47	ucb	prefixed shards and we have 8 caches IIRC
04:47	ucb	I haven't worked on this for months, so the details are hazy :/
04:48	ucb	oh, one thing that was a big bin in performance was to stop sending plain text to the relays
04:48	SegFaultAX	How granular are your retentions?
04:48	ucb	and instead pickled batches
04:48	SegFaultAX	Yea of course.
04:48	SegFaultAX	UDP all the things.
04:48	ucb	heh
04:48	ucb	we're using TCP
04:48	ucb	perhaps we should move to UDP
04:48	SegFaultAX	Ouch.
04:48	SegFaultAX	That doesn't help.
04:49	ucb	we're dropping data anyway :/
04:49	SegFaultAX	I've often wondered if it would be viable to re-write carbon in whisper.
04:49	ucb	we're currently dropping (because the relays aren't coping) ~100/s
04:49	SegFaultAX	In clojure
04:49	ucb	it should be in principle
04:50	ucb	thing is, you might as well write it without preserving compatibility
04:50	SegFaultAX	I meant to say "write it in clojure and abandon whisper"
04:50	ucb	yeah
04:50	SegFaultAX	Honestly, this is basically riemann with history.
04:50	SegFaultAX	(Something I've been waiting for for a very long time)
04:51	SegFaultAX	aphyr y u no make riemann durable!
04:51	ucb	heh, we're fwding from riemann to graphite
04:51	ucb	also, crazy startup story that one
04:51	SegFaultAX	Hmm?
04:52	SegFaultAX	Isn't he at Factual?
04:52	SegFaultAX	Also, you're using Riemann is a frontend? I'm jelly, can I see your panel?!?!?!
04:52	ucb	Factual? what?
04:52	rhg135	Ah now I get it.
04:52	SegFaultAX	I thought aphyr was working at Factual.
04:52	ucb	we don't have a dash in front of riemann, we're using it just for metrics and alerts for now
04:52	ucb	right, no idea
04:53	SegFaultAX	01:28 < ucb> also, crazy startup story that one
04:53	SegFaultAX	Thought that was about aphyr
04:53	ucb	oh, right, no. It was about that blog you linked.
04:53	SegFaultAX	Oh dude, I know. Wtf.
04:54	SegFaultAX	I was in the founders den a few years back
04:54	SegFaultAX	That was pretty fun.
04:54	ucb	nice
04:54	SegFaultAX	You work in SF?
04:54	ucb	nope, I'm in the far north of UK
04:54	ucb	think North. North of that.
04:54	SegFaultAX	Far norf. FTFY
04:55	ucb	bloody esta
04:56	freiksenet	some clojure 'type inference' fun: http://techblog.zenrobotics.com/2013/08/clojure-puzzler-2.html#comment-form
04:56	SegFaultAX	Alright, off to bed.
04:56	SegFaultAX	Night!
04:56	ucb	night!
04:57	SegFaultAX	ucb: You should get approval (if you need it) to open source your graphite relay replacement.
04:57	SegFaultAX	That could be really really useful.
04:57	ucb	SegFaultAX: that's the plan
04:58	ucb	SegFaultAX: some bits of it are already open, like the pickler and the consistent hashing
04:58	SegFaultAX	Well that's built in.
04:58	ucb	I'm just putting things now into a /coherent/ application
04:58	SegFaultAX	Sweet.
04:58	ucb	(or at least trying to)
05:17	ucb	any suggestions?
05:43	lotia	freiksenet: Would love to get an explanation on why
05:43	lotia	freiksenet: regarding the puzzler to which you posted a link
05:45	vxn	I second that. The result is quite surprising.
05:46	Anderkent]away	it's because the compiler doesn't infer a common interface for :x and (fn [] ...)
05:46	Anderkent]away	in the return of if statement
05:46	Anderkent	thus it doesn't know what the interface of (if true :x (fn ...)) is, thus it cannot use it to locate the right Thread consturctor on compile time
05:47	clgv	Anderkent: you'd have to patch it to find the maximum common interface/subclass if that is possible
05:48	clgv	Anderkent: if that's doable you should file a ticket on jira.
05:48	Anderkent	clgv: don't think it is
05:48	Anderkent	not 'correctly'
05:48	Anderkent	or rather you'd need union types
05:48	clgv	Anderkent: but maybe worth a mailing list post
05:48	Anderkent	because say you have function(Runnable c) and function(IFn f) and function(Keyword k)
05:49	Anderkent	the most specific overload wins
05:49	clgv	Anderkent: oh I did not mean that
05:49	freiksenet	lotia: if type inference only unifies the class name
05:49	Anderkent	but you don't know which one the expression is
05:49	Anderkent	so you cannot decide which fn to use on compile time
05:49	Anderkent	you have to use reflection
05:49	clgv	I meant the inference that both keyword and fn are IFn
05:49	freiksenet	yeah, but the class is AFunction and Keyword
05:50	Anderkent	clgv: yes, but you'd have to check that Thread. has an IFn type an no Keyword / AFunction types
05:50	freiksenet	vars are unified even in weirder name, try (if identity (fn [] 1)) that won't unify
05:50	Anderkent	i.e. you must verify that the resolution is the most specific overload for either branch
05:50	freiksenet	so basically if statement gets 'known' type when both branches has same cals
05:50	freiksenet	class*
05:50	clgv	Anderkent: or does that inference work already and you only meant to show that it is not clear which thread constructor to resolve to?
05:51	Anderkent	no, it's clear which one it should resolve to in this case
05:51	Anderkent	because the only alternative to Runnable is ThreadGroup
05:51	Anderkent	but it's hard to solve in the generic case
05:51	freiksenet	it is all about how if works, not about thread
05:51	freiksenet	or rather how clojure 'inference' works with it
05:52	freiksenet	arcatan here can be more comprehensive than I, I guess
05:52	clgv	freiksenet: no. there is type inference for "if" in the case of primitives
05:52	Anderkent	yeah, and the type inference is local, i.e. you need to decide what type (if :x (fn ...)) is before you know you're putting it into Thread., I think
05:52	freiksenet	clgv: yes, I never denied that. but it works by comparing classes
05:52	Anderkent	though you could try to infer it top down
05:53	freiksenet	and it gives 'type' to if only if they match
05:53	clgv	freiksenet: ok^^ yeah the ancestors of the classes are not considered
05:53	freiksenet	it also works funky with vars
05:53	Anderkent	freiksenet: well that's because you can't know the type of the var
05:53	Anderkent	yuo don't know someone didnt just alter-var-root it
05:54	freiksenet	yeah, sure.
05:54	freiksenet	we'll have a bigger blog post on that subject on monday I think
05:54	arcatan	if someone writes it :P
05:54	arcatan	i guess i should
05:55	Anderkent	huh, keywords can't have metadata?
06:13	rurumate	How to resolve a function by string (java reflection style)? Say, I have this string "my.ns/foo" and there is a function foo in namespace my.ns, how to invoke foo?
06:14	Anderkent	rurumate: (resolve (symbol "clojure.core/+"))
06:15	Anderkent	that gives you the function, call it with another paren wrap
06:16	rhg135	Why the symbol call?
06:16	Anderkent	resolve takes a symbol
06:17	rhg135	I mean why use 2 args
06:17	rhg135	O nvm
06:17	rhg135	Derp lol
06:17	rurumate	Anderkent: it works with core namespaces, but not with a namespace I required
06:18	rcg	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/1.2.0/clojure.core/read-string
06:18	rurumate	the require works, but the resolve returns nil..
06:18	Anderkent	rurumate: can you post the exact steps you took to refheap?
06:19	rurumate	Anderkent: oops my bad, the function didn't exist (typo)
06:19	Anderkent	hah :P
06:20	rhg135	They keep it interesting ;)
06:20	Anderkent	rcg: read-string is eval/evil, so don't.
06:21	rhg135	Yup
06:22	rhg135	It can eval code
06:25	clgv	Anderkent: it works with ^:const metadata on vars
06:33	Anderkent	clgv: right, because :const tells the compiler to substitute the value for any var references
06:33	clj_newb_2345	where in the world can I find a quality tutorial on datalog? the theory and semantics
06:37	fredyr	clj_newb_2345: if you find one, let me know
06:37	fredyr	i've been looking as well
06:38	clj_newb_2345	http://code.google.com/p/clojure-contrib/wiki/DatalogOverview has a borken link to "Functional Relational Programming"
06:38	clj_newb_2345	let's dig up that paper
06:38	fredyr	http://www-users.cselabs.umn.edu/classes/Spring-2010/csci8211/Readings/datalog.pdf
06:38	fredyr	this one is the best i've found previously
06:41	clj_newb_2345	https://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/tree/2ede388a9267d175bfaa7781ee9d57532eb4f20f/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/datalog is really short
06:41	clj_newb_2345	I'm just going ot read the src instead :-)
06:41	fredyr	:)
06:43	clgv	clj_newb_2345: this is new http://www.learndatalogtoday.org/
06:43	clgv	clj_newb_2345: do yourself a favor and ignore the old clojure.contrib completely
06:44	clj_newb_2345	clgv: datalog + datomic, nice!
06:49	clgv	clj_newb_2345: I am starting to use it myself since yesterday ;)
06:52	noncom	can i define another macro, instead of (ns) to create namespaces and use it instead of (ns) ?
06:56	clgv	noncom: not literally. but you can use data_readers.clj and tagged literals to approximate that
06:58	noncom	clgv: but i have looked into the source of (ns) - it is simply a macro, there is nothing that i couldn't write.. or not? at the end it refers to RT.load which does all the actual work anyway...
06:59	noncom	or you mean that a file won't be recognized as a namespace if there is no (ns) ?
06:59	clgv	noncom: the reason you can not write your own `ns` is a bootstrap problem
06:59	noncom	what do you mean?
07:00	clgv	you need to require the new namespace macro before using it
07:01	clgv	e.g. (require '[my.awesome.namespace :as m]) (m/my-ns ....)
07:02	Anderkent	Hm. What makes ns available before clojure is referred?
07:02	clgv	Anderkent: the compiler
07:03	noncom	alright, what if i have several namespaces defined with (ns) where i have (my-ns) and all the other namespaces defined with (my-ns)?
07:03	noncom	can't i make (my-ns) as available, as (ns) is?
07:03	clgv	noncom: ParsingException: WHAT?
07:03	Anderkent	if you can ensure the namespace that declares my-ns is loaded, you can do (full.namespace/my-ns ...) without requiring
07:03	Anderkent	but that's ... messy
07:04	clgv	yeah that works^^
07:04	hyPiRion	You can probably dump it into clojure.core too, but that's even messier.
07:04	Anderkent	right
07:04	clgv	but then you could just use data literals with the normal ns and make sure the data_literal function is required
07:04	noncom	so i could make an invasive surgery and register it within 'clojure.core' ?
07:04	hyPiRion	I'd just... use ns
07:05	clgv	noncom: why do you want to do that anyway? (not that I havent been there already ;) )
07:05	hyPiRion	noncom: well, yes. You can register it in clojure.core if you really want to
07:06	Anderkent	you can even (alter-var-root #'ns) if you really want to
07:06	clgv	Anderkent: btter use some hooking library to easily revert the hook ;)
07:06	noncom	heheh :) it turns out that i do not need an (ns) macro in the system. i do my own namespaces management and the (ns) macro is only used to require the custom ns-management system which then does all the work. hence, there is always the same (ns) macro call in each ns and it is simply useless to do it that way
07:07	Anderkent	that sounds like a bad idea
07:07	noncom	oh very cool, you suggest some really cool ways
07:07	Anderkent	noncom: we're in the daily wtf mode now
07:08	clgv	noncom: "your own namespace management" that sounds like duplicating efforts. I have been there for some configuration file format and realized alter that I am better of using regular clojure namespaces...
07:08	hyPiRion	Anderkent: alter-var-rooting ns would be suicide. Suddenly you require a namespace from a lib and the world blows up.
07:08	noncom	Anderkent: I understand what you mean, but for the purpose of the current task, I believe this is very good solution. I will use the "custom ns-management system" only in a limited area inside the program.
07:09	llasram	noncom: Hmmm. You could write a lein plugin which loads your alternate-ns form before loading any code. For applications, you could add a runtime loader stub like lein-otf's, but for first loading your alternate ns form
07:09	noncom	wow, one more way!
07:10	Anderkent	hyPiRion: I know, I was kidding. Really.
07:10	noncom	i understand why you people are sad about this, but i believe it is really worth in my case. and it will be an isolated case
07:10	hyPiRion	Anderkent: hah, good.
07:10	Anderkent	also, alter-var-rooting a macro in general doesnt seem like a good idea :P
07:11	hyPiRion	alter-var-rooting in general is dangerous
07:11	hyPiRion	Only exception is for memoizing
07:12	hyPiRion	Well, that's my take on it. You have to know what you're doing at least
07:13	Anderkent	eh, it has its uses. But mostly in 'this is a messy shortcut so that developers can have it a bit easier' kind of way
07:13	Anderkent	like a wipe state button :P
07:13	Anderkent	but i was going more towards the need to handle special macro args etc. yourself
07:13	clgv	noncom: no one is sad about the idea - just warning you for your own sake ;)
07:14	noncom	hehe :D... well.. after some time we shall see if it all was worth it :)
07:17	clgv	serious doubts over here ;)
07:19	noncom	clgv: could you tell me, how it turned out in your case? waht did you realize after you tried that?
07:20	rurumate	Can anyone help me with a macro? I'm trying to use another macro inside it, and the compiler doesn't like it.. https://www.refheap.com/18171
07:21	clgv	noncom: I tried an own management for config namespaces since I splitted them into several files for reuse. ultimately I noticed that I needed more features which I simply get by using `def` and standard clojure namespaces...
07:22	rurumate	run-in-parallel should wrap each form in (future (form)), then call (dorun (map deref) forms) on the resulting list "forms"
07:23	hyPiRion	rurumate: macros aren't first class functions
07:23	hyPiRion	first class, rather
07:23	hyPiRion	So you cannot do (map first-class ...), you'd have to do (map #(first-class %) ...)
07:24	clgv	rurumate: just use (defmacro run-in-parallel [& forms] `(map deref ~(mapv (fn [x] `(future ~x)) forms)))
07:24	hyPiRion	(Either way, I don't see why you have a to-future macro, you could use future straight away)
07:24	rurumate	hmm
07:25	clgv	rurumate: the keypart is that `mapv` is run at macroexpansion time in this macro and builds the code snippets that wrap the forms into futures
07:25	rurumate	clgv: that works, nice
07:25	clgv	rurumate: I used `mapv` to get a vector as result so that clojure does not try to execute the first element as function
07:26	clgv	rurumate: writing macros bottom-up with macroexpand-1 usage at every step helps to get it right in a short time
07:26	rurumate	clgv: amazing, you're nesting the `s and ~s
07:27	rurumate	clgv: but shouldn't x# be used instead of x?
07:27	hyPiRion	You'll see it often when you're modifying the forms and reproduce them
07:28	clgv	rurumate: yeah that could be done in a function as well, e.g. (defn wrap-futures [forms] (mapv (fn [x] `(future ~x)) forms)) (defmacro run-in-parallel [& forms] `(map deref ~(wrap-futures forms))
07:28	clgv	+)
07:29	hyPiRion	rurumate: ##(mapv (fn [x] `(future ~x)) '(this (should be) okay, you 'know))
07:29	lazybot	⇒ [(clojure.core/future this) (clojure.core/future (should be)) (clojure.core/future okay) (clojure.core/future you) (clojure.core/future (quote know))]
07:29	clgv	rurumate: no it should not be x#, since it is a parameter of the function used in mapv and not some gensym
07:36	poutsi	hey guys, just noticed what I think is a bug in how 1.5.1's REPL handles the timezone of a java.util.Calendar instance
07:36	poutsi	when evaluated it prints it out with the normal timezone offset instead of the DST one even though it's DST now
07:36	poutsi	so, bugs reports go where? the dev google group?
07:38	poutsi	just tried the same in the latest 1.6.0 snapshot and it's wrong there too
07:39	Anderkent	poutsi: which repl is that? clojure.main? lein repl?
07:41	poutsi	hoom, I'm still mostly at the point where lein is magic. But, I tried 1.5.1 with a lein repl and the snapshot jar I just fed to java -jar
07:43	llasram	poutsi: I'd be pretty flabbergasted if Clojure, lein, or any REPL layer was causing that
07:43	llasram	poutsi: gist?
07:43	poutsi	sec
07:44	poutsi	yup, the expected outcome is definitely me having a red face but let's see
07:44	Anderkent	well, I wouldn't be surprised if something adds a `print-method` for Calendar objects
07:44	Anderkent	they string pretty ugly
07:45	Anderkent	,(str (java.util.Calendar/getInstance))
07:45	clojurebot	"java.util.GregorianCalendar[time=1377861700537,areFieldsSet=true,areAllFieldsSet=true,lenient=true,zone=sun.util.calendar.ZoneInfo[id=\"Etc/UTC\",offset=0,dstSavings=0,useDaylight=false,transitions=0,lastRule=null],firstDayOfWeek=1,minimalDaysInFirstWeek=1,ERA=1,YEAR=2013,MONTH=7,WEEK_OF_YEAR=35,WEEK_OF_MONTH=5,DAY_OF_MONTH=30,DAY_OF_YEAR=242,DAY_OF_WEEK=6,DAY_OF_WEEK_IN_MONTH=5,AM_PM=0,HOUR=11,H...
07:45	Anderkent	,(pr (java.util.Calendar/getInstance))
07:45	clojurebot	#inst "2013-08-30T11:21:45.623+00:00"
07:46	llasram	Oh, that makes sense. I skipped learning the Java stdlib date-time stuff, and had forgotten a "Calendar" represents a date-time. You know, wth?
07:47	Anderkent	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/clojure-1.5.1/src/clj/clojure/instant.clj#L169
07:47	poutsi	https://gist.github.com/ilkka/6388908
07:47	Ember-	fortunately finally in java 8 there's going to be a reasonable date api
07:47	Anderkent	I really wouldn't have guessed to look at instant.clj
07:47	Ember-	but in the mean time, use joda-time
07:47	Ember-	and clj-time wrapped on top of joda-time
07:47	Anderkent	anyway, it just calls (.format utc-format date)
07:48	poutsi	Ember-: I know, I just hit upon this by accident because of legacy stuff having nothing to do with clojure
07:48	Anderkent	also hahaha we too have a 'WTF SimpleDateFormat is NOT THREAD SAFE' comment somewhere in a couple of our projects
07:49	Anderkent	oh sorry it special cases Calendar
07:50	repsac	So I have task that I would like to rate limit, is there any good way to do so?
07:50	Anderkent	but still, it just asks String/format to pull out the timezone from Calendar... So if there's anything wrong with it it's javas fault
07:50	repsac	like if I could specify a minimum interval between executions in a while loop
07:51	Anderkent	repsac: core.async! :P
07:51	repsac	really?
07:51	repsac	Well it's kinda still alpha though
07:51	Anderkent	well, yes, it's easy with core.async, but there's simpler solutions too
07:51	Anderkent	The most obvious one is to just call thread/sleep in the while loop
07:52	clgv	repsac: you want something like a cron?
07:52	repsac	I guess, I was just thinking there would be some construct intended for this
07:53	repsac	clgv: well I have a task that I would like to not gets run more often than say once a minute
07:53	Anderkent	i.e. (while condition (let [start-time (time-millis-now) _ (do-work) end-time (time-millis-now)] (sleep (-> (+ start-time interval) (- end-time)))))
07:54	repsac	and I would also like to be able to interrupt the task
07:54	llasram	Anderkent, poutsi: ##(format "%1$tz" (java.util.Calendar/getInstance))
07:54	lazybot	⇒ "-0700"
07:54	llasram	What the heck is that doing?
07:55	Anderkent	pulling timezone out of the calendar, obviously!
07:55	llasram	haha
07:55	llasram	thanks :-p
07:55	repsac	Anderkent: Yeah that's along the lines I was thinking too. I guess I would interrupt the thread to break it out of its sleep?
07:55	Anderkent	repz - just set the condition to false
07:55	Anderkent	it will wake up on its own and exit when interval expires
07:56	llasram	woooow -- http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/Formatter.html#dt
07:56	repsac	yeah but I don't want it to wait for the sleep to expire :)
07:56	poutsi	shit, timezones are complicated (news, right)
07:56	Anderkent	repsac: eh. You could do that. But why bother?
07:56	repsac	i think (.interrupt thread) breaks it out though
07:56	poutsi	is "timezone" even the same as "current utc offset"?
07:57	poutsi	what I mean is, the format "%1$tz" bit pulls out +2 hours
07:57	repsac	well if a thread is active but sleeping for like 5 minutes I would not be abl e to shut down the VM gracefully
07:57	poutsi	but the current correct offset is +3
07:57	Anderkent	poutsi: maybe your locale is misconfigured? :P
07:57	clgv	repsac: well you can make those threads backgroundthreads
07:58	repsac	mark it is a daemon? Or how do you make it background?
07:58	poutsi	Anderkent: possible, but I highly doubt it
07:58	Anderkent	repsac: you could also use agents and (shutdown-agents-now) to kill it :P
07:59	Anderkent	hm actually that doesnt make it easier
07:59	jkkramer	repsac: https://github.com/jkk/rate-gate
07:59	Anderkent	you still need to block in some thread while waiting to enqueue new job
07:59	llasram	Anderkent, poutsi: I'm seeing the same behavior. The SimpleDateFormat `Z` format accounts for DST, but for some reason String/format `tz` doesn't
07:59	jkkramer	there's a PR to use core.async i haven't merged yet
07:59	llasram	crazy
08:00	repsac	jkkramer: ooh nice
08:00	poutsi	llasram: let's just put it down to java datetime API madness and sweep it under the rug then :D
08:00	repsac	i'm guessing you wrote it?
08:00	Anderkent	llasram: poutsi: works for me: "2013-08-30T12:36:32.838BST" "2013-08-30T12:36:35.573+0100"
08:00	Anderkent	BST is in fact +1
08:00	jkkramer	repsac: yes. no guarantees on its robustness or efficency :P
08:00	poutsi	Anderkent: do you observe DST?
08:01	Anderkent	poutsi: BST is summer time, GMT otherwise
08:01	llasram	Anderkent: For me I get actually incorrect tagged literals back out. With the SimpleDateFormat, the correct: "2013-08-30T07:36:20.371-0400", but Clojure print-method: #inst "2013-08-30T07:36:35.122-05:00"
08:01	poutsi	okay
08:01	repsac	jkkramer: hehe you need to work on your salesmanship :P I'll have a look at it though :)
08:01	llasram	So "same" time, but without the DST applied in print-method
08:02	llasram	And hence an hour off
08:02	Anderkent	wow that's weird
08:02	Anderkent	what about (format "%1$tFT%1$tT.%1$tL%1$tz" (Calendar/getInstance))
08:02	Anderkent	that should be the same as print-method hopefully?
08:02	Anderkent	,(format "%1$tFT%1$tT.%1$tL%1$tz" (Calendar/getInstance))
08:02	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: Calendar, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
08:02	poutsi	if I change that to %1$tZ I get the correct EEST :D
08:02	Anderkent	,(format "%1$tFT%1$tT.%1$tL%1$tz" (java.util.Calendar/getInstance))
08:02	clojurebot	"2013-08-30T11:39:21.334+0000"
08:02	poutsi	but with %1$tz it prints the incorrect +0200 offset
08:02	Anderkent	well that's no fun
08:02	llasram	Anderkent: Exactly, and hence wrong :-)
08:02	Anderkent	it's on gmt
08:05	jkkramer	ha: http://bugs.sun.com/view_bug.do?bug_id=6286592
08:05	Anderkent	llasram: poutsi: how about ,(doseq [field [Calendar/ZONE_OFFSET Calendar/DST_OFFSET]] (.get (Calendar/getInstance) field)
08:05	llasram	jkkramer: Just found that too :-)
08:05	Anderkent	hrtabf
08:05	Anderkent	ah
08:05	Anderkent	you're on java 6?
08:06	llasram	Yes, which is a supported Clojure platform :-p
08:06	Anderkent	how silly!
08:06	Anderkent	really? It's not even supported by oracle anymore, is it.
08:07	poutsi	Anderkent: nil
08:08	Anderkent	yes, that's where hrtabf was from. I forgot to print them :D
08:08	Anderkent	but since you've found it already I figured you won't be running it
08:08	llasram	Anderkent: Yeah, yeah... Unfortunately my company is still on Debian squeeze for production, which doesn't have an openjdk 7 package. I need to get us to wheezy first
08:08	poutsi	ah
08:09	wazaaaaaaa	سمَـَّوُوُحخ ̷̴̐خ ̷̴̐خ ̷̴̐خ امارتيخ ̷̴̐خ
08:09	Anderkent	llasram: hm, you run raw debians rather than ubuntu lts?
08:10	llasram	Anderkent: I've thought about switching, but yah
08:11	Anderkent	hah, is that the turkish string that crashes osx apps?
08:11	Anderkent	yeah it is
08:11	Anderkent	nice.
08:23	clgv	llasram: manual openjdk instance is not that complicated...
08:23	clgv	s/instance/installation/
08:25	llasram	clgv: I looked at backporting the packages, but a lot of dependencies had changed. I'd like to update, but because I'll also need to e.g. make sure our Hadoop cluster is stable under 7 too, I'm not personally in a huge rush
08:25	clgv	llasram: ah ok
08:48	hhenkel	Hi again, as I described yesterday I try to implement a producer/consumer application. My current plan is to have a config file (I found edn) where I describe the tasks that need to be executed. After reading the config file, I would like to create a Priority Queue which contains the tasks that need to be executed. A pool of threads should then take tasks of the queue and start them as soon as it is time to do so.
08:48	hhenkel	Currently I'm failing on such a simple task like looping over my config: http://paste2.org/vxUzyXVp
08:49	hhenkel	Anyone around who can give me some hints if that would be the correct way to do things?
08:52	Anderkent	hhenkel: you seem to have double () around println val? Other than that (and using one-armed if instead of when), looks ok
08:52	Anderkent	what is going wrong?
08:54	mdrogalis	Anderkent: 'armed'. Haven't heard that word used like that before. Neat.
08:55	yogthos	(defn init-queue [config]
08:55	yogthos	(doseq [[k v] config]
08:55	yogthos	(println k v)
08:55	yogthos	(if (map? v)
08:55	yogthos	(init-queue v))))
08:55	yogthos	(init-queue config)
08:55	yogthos	is probably what you want?
08:56	hhenkel	Anderkent: I'm getting a null pointer on the second iteration.
08:57	hhenkel	Is edn and the way I use it a good idea or should I stick to properties?
08:57	Anderkent	hhenkel: did you fix the double paren? ((println :x)) will give you a null pointer
08:57	Anderkent	edn is fine for config
08:57	hhenkel	yogthos: I'll check that.
08:58	yogthos	it's not tail recursive, but presumably it shouldn't matter for config ;)
08:59	Anderkent	yogthos: clojure doesnt do tail recursion anyway
08:59	Anderkent	or rather, only explicit one (with recur)
08:59	yogthos	right and here you can't recur
08:59	hhenkel	Anderkent: You're right, the double brackets we're causing the issue. Could you explain why that resulted in a null pointer?
08:59	Anderkent	hhenkel: (println foo) returns nil. (nil) tries to call null as a function, which throws NPE
09:00	hhenkel	Anderkent: Ah, okay... ;)
09:02	hhenkel	Okay, yogthos stuff works fine so far. Now the question is how to add a new task to a queue? First I would have to create multiple tasks as a host could have multiple actions. In my past I used a object for that...how would I do it in clojure?
09:04	yogthos	it sounds like agents might be what you're looking for? http://clojure.org/agents
09:04	Anderkent	hhenkel: depends on what your queue is. If it's a ref, then you do (dosync (alter queue conj new-item))
09:04	hhenkel	Is it correct to have a function that gives me a "task" map and that is added to a sorted map where I'm sorting by the "time" tag (start time) ?
09:05	clgv	do I have to tell datomic the type (entity) of a :db.type/ref attribute to be able to insert a complete data tree ?
09:05	hhenkel	yogthos: I asked for that yesterday and I was pointed to futures...but I realiesed I asked to early for that.
09:05	Anderkent	hhenkel: that soudns reasonable, but you probably want a sorted-set-by not sorted-map?
09:06	hhenkel	Anderkent: Yes, I meant that, sorry. That would would do the job as a "priority queue"?
09:07	yogthos	there's a few options
09:08	hhenkel	What I currently not getting is, how to work with immutable stuff. I got a map and I want to add or remove something. Do I have to assign the result of the adding / removing function to the old name/ref?
09:08	clgv	is it possible in datomic to add a tree of entities?
09:09	Anderkent	hhenkel: you use `alter` in a (dosync) block to do that, when you have to - clojure.org/refs
09:09	Anderkent	that will safely change the value in a ref, as long as the modifying function you give it has no side effects
09:09	Anderkent	usually a couple refs/atoms storing the state is all the mutability you will need
09:13	clgv	hhenkel: are you sure that you want to implement a priority queue based on clojure's primitive instead of using java.util.concurrent.PriorityQueue?
09:14	Anderkent	clgv: my impression was this is a toy project to familiarize oneself with clojure... In which case using j.u.c defeats the purpose :P
09:14	Anderkent	also, I wish there was a wrapper for j.u.c with nicer api
09:15	clgv	Anderkent: in that case yes. but for getting the job done j.u.c.PQ schould be used...
09:15	Anderkent	people keep saying that, but it's really rare that you need just a queue. j.u.c. is nice in java wolrd because everything is already mutable, so you just put a mutable queue in your state object and everything's fine
09:16	Anderkent	but if you want to use clojures primities anywhere, you can't put a mutable object in your state
09:16	hhenkel	Anderkent: Sorry for asking so basic stuff.... I do (def mymap {:text1 "123" :text2 "456"}), now I got mymap. mymap is a ref? How would I increment the values for example?
09:17	Anderkent	hhenkel: no, it's not a ref. It's a var. You create a ref with (def myref (ref {})). Then you can (dosync (alter my-ref into {:a 1})) to put stuff in, and @my-ref to get the 'current snapshot' out
09:17	Anderkent	all your modifications must happen in dosync blocks. Have you read www.clojure.org/refs ?
09:18	Anderkent	actually
09:18	Anderkent	start with http://clojure.org/concurrent_programming
09:18	Anderkent	it's better as an overview
09:18	`cbp	maybe you should get a book or tutorial first. Mutability and coordination are not things you just learn as you go :P. Clojure programming has a nice section on it
09:19	hhenkel	Anderkent: Yes I tried...but I find it quite confusing...so for sorting then I would also use the ref then?
09:20	Anderkent	hhenkel: no, you would put a sorted map into a ref
09:20	Anderkent	you can put anyhting in a ref, it's just a 'box' that makes things mutable
09:20	Anderkent	was the first or second link the confusing one?
09:21	clgv	hhenkel: condensed example ##(let [q (ref [])] (dotimes [i 10] (future (dosync (alter q conj i)))) @q)
09:21	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! future-call is bad!
09:21	hhenkel	`cbp: I got a book...programming clojure - second edition.
09:21	Anderkent	nyahaha.
09:21	hhenkel	Anderkent: the one with refs
09:21	clgv	no threads? :(
09:21	Anderkent	hhenkel: try the http://clojure.org/concurrent_programming
09:21	Anderkent	it's a higher level overview
09:22	`cbp	hhenkel: that book has a section called State
09:22	Anderkent	clgv: also, your thing doesnt really demonstrate stuff, I'd expect q to be anyhwere between empty and all elems at @q
09:22	`cbp	prolly read that first, also notice it's the 5th section so you need a bit of background first :P
09:22	Anderkent	I found http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html useful when starting
09:23	Anderkent	but I didn't really read any book fully, just started hacking
09:23	Anderkent	and reading through clojure code
09:23	clgv	Anderkent: it demonstrates functionality. didnt say that `q` has to be filled completely... ;)
09:23	Anderkent	but I had a basic haskell background
09:23	clgv	it managed to get to 7 here ;)
09:23	Anderkent	clgv: not very useful when it prints []!
09:23	Anderkent	[1] for me :D
09:23	`cbp	basic haskell -> phd level stuff
09:24	Anderkent	haskell was the first real language I learned :P
09:24	hhenkel	Anderkent: I'll start more reading then... ;)
09:24	`cbp	I have no clue how people can read their own programs after writing them in haskell =P
09:24	hhenkel	Thanks all for the informations.
09:25	Anderkent	hhenkel: in general I'd avoid mutable state for the first couple days. You can probably write everything except the state manager in a style like this
09:25	Anderkent	(defn schedule-task [queue new-task] (...))
09:25	clgv	hhenkel: another reading hint http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/concurrency_and_parallelism.html
09:25	Anderkent	basically pass your state around and write the code that takes a state and returns a modified one
09:26	Anderkent	it gets a little tedious if your program grows, but for simple stuff it should be fine :P
09:26	clgv	`cbp: then consider the perl programs without strict mode ;)
09:26	noncom	hhenkel: first of all - why you want a ref? you simply want to mutate the map?
09:27	Anderkent	`cbp: it wasnt industrial haskell, it was simple haskell
09:27	Anderkent	no custom monads etc :P
09:27	clgv	noncom: if he wants to build a queue with clojure data structure used by different threads he needs either an atom or a ref
09:27	Anderkent	ref
09:27	Anderkent	atoms dont do it
09:27	Anderkent	without incredible ugliness :P
09:28	clgv	Anderkent: you meant my comment?
09:28	Anderkent	yes
09:28	Anderkent	you'd need to wrap the queue with something that stores 'last popped element'
09:28	noncom	clgv: oh right
09:28	clgv	ah right the retrieval of an element is not easy with atoms.
09:29	clgv	I mean combined modification and retrieval
09:29	Anderkent	or you'd need to do compare-and-set! manually in a loop
09:29	Anderkent	both options are terrible
09:29	clgv	Anderkent: easier with thread-local bindings then ;)
09:29	Anderkent	hm? how so?
09:30	Anderkent	a (swap!) that side effect on a thread-local?
09:31	Anderkent	... that might work lol
09:31	clgv	yes it does. but that's not very idiomatic either
09:40	stuartsierra	TimMc: Getting back to DJSON-9 for a moment, I think I'm going to name the option :escape-js-separators
09:43	stuartsierra	Then I'll release a new version.
09:45	TimMc	stuartsierra: From :escape-separators?
09:45	TimMc	Sounds good.
09:45	stuartsierra	TimMc: yes
09:45	TimMc	/shipit
09:47	Anderkent	ooh
09:47	Anderkent	the macroexpansion in core.async
09:47	Anderkent	i want that pulled out to a separate lib
09:49	Anderkent	also, damn, that thing is hard to read
09:50	clgv	Anderkent: link?
09:50	Anderkent	well, basically this bit: https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/async/impl/ioc_macros.clj#L573
09:51	Anderkent	except generalized so that you can intercept and stop expansion arbitrary forms
09:54	clgv	hehe
09:56	stuartsierra	data.json 0.2.3 is cooked
10:06	hhenkel	clgv: Thanks, I will look at that as well.
10:07	hhenkel	noncom: It was recommended if I want to use a sorted-by-map from multiple threads.
10:11	stuartsierra	Also closing DJSON-12 as either mistaken or unreproducible.
10:25	rigger	sheesh
10:32	shaunxcode	haha the swannodette gazette! I wish that were an actual printed periodical. I would totally pay for it.
10:50	noncom	hhenkel: yeah, sorry i overlooked that
11:15	mdrogalis	Anyone alive that's watched Design, Composition and Performance? I've a question.
11:16	`cbp	~anyone
11:16	clojurebot	anyone is anybody
11:16	`cbp	:/
11:16	`cbp	just ask the question? :P
11:16	hyPiRion	~anyone
11:16	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
11:17	`cbp	=(
11:17	Anderkent	~everyone
11:17	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
11:17	futile	wat
11:17	mdrogalis	37:42 of that video. What on earth is he talking about?
11:19	futile	simplicity is underappreciated
11:19	futile	(unrelated)
11:20	hyPiRion	clojurebot: forget anyone \|is\|<reply>anyone is anybody
11:20	clojurebot	I forgot that anyone is <reply>anyone is anybody
11:22	ToxicFrog	Design/best practices question. I am writing a program that can read and write data to/from various formats/sources. So the user might invoke it with --to=edn or --from=steam or the like.
11:22	futile	clojurebot should be rewritten in Rust
11:23	futile	you know, for concurrency
11:23	hyPiRion	futile: no, it should be rewritten in Node.js because it's async
11:23	futile	hyPiRion: Rust is the successor to Node.js tho
11:23	ToxicFrog	In lua, I'd just have, e.g., a data/ directory containing steam.lua, edn.lua, xml.lua, etc; when it sees --from or --to, it loads the file with the corresponding name. If it can't, it reports an error; if it can, the file returns a table of read/write functions.
11:24	ToxicFrog	In clojure, am I right in thinking that this sort of load-by-name is considered unheamy?
11:24	hyPiRion	futile: I am joking there. I'm writing a bot in Erlang, actually. I think it's a better fit for this sort of task.
11:24	futile	ToxicFrog: you can still do that in a Clojure project
11:24	edannenbe	how do i iterate over large (20^75 entries) seq? nth seems to be out of the question
11:24	futile	hyPiRion: elixir?
11:24	Anderkent	but you can just load all of them and dispatch to the right function based on the arg..
11:24	ToxicFrog	futile: I know I can, I'm asking if that's considered a good way to do this
11:24	futile	ToxicFrog: oh, sorry
11:24	hyPiRion	futile: Erlang, I want to finally "get everything" it has.
11:24	Anderkent	I'd say don't unless you have a very good reason (for example they're very expensive to load or sth)
11:24	ToxicFrog	As opposed to, e.g., :requiring all of them and then having a map { format name => RW functions }\
11:24	futile	hyPiRion: even the syntax!?
11:25	ToxicFrog	Anderkent: no, loading is expected to be quite cheap
11:25	futile	ToxicFrog: oh yeah I would use an intermediate name->thing map
11:25	`cbp	edannenbe: what do you mean 20^75 are you iterating through every atom in space or something?
11:25	coventry	edannenbe: unless you can come up with a non-inductive definition of the seq elements (a function), random access to the elements of a seq that long seems physically impossible.
11:25	ToxicFrog	So the only reason to avoid doing so is to avoid having to manually write out the whole map and the lengthy list of :requires
11:25	ToxicFrog	Unless clj has some way to say "load everything in this dir"
11:26	futile	ToxicFrog: it sounds like this is a question of whether convention-over-configuration is idiomatic in Clojure, and I would definitely say no
11:26	ToxicFrog	convention-over-configuration?
11:26	futile	ToxicFrog: oh boy
11:26	futile	ToxicFrog: ever used Rails?
11:26	ToxicFrog	But yes, this is mostly a conventions/best practices/idioms question. I know a bunch of ways to write this, but I want the code to be good, not just functional.
11:26	Anderkent	futile: the question is more like 'how is that relevant to what we're talking about'
11:26	ToxicFrog	I have not.
11:27	futile	Anderkent: whaa?
11:27	ToxicFrog	Anderkent: no, I genuinely have no idea what he means by that. I may know the concept under another name but I've never heard that phrase.
11:27	Anderkent	I don't see how 'convention over configuration' applies at all to the question of whether to dynamically load namespaces
11:27	hyPiRion	futile: The syntax is not that bad, imo. But I'm the guy who studies "Unconventional Machines: Design and Architecture", so I may not be the best to ask about syntax
11:27	`cbp	mdrogalis: I think he's referring to the new tendency of trying to make software development as easy and fast as possible.
11:27	Anderkent	ToxicFrog: it's just the approach of not letting people configure stuff, instead enforcing conventional locations for files etc.
11:28	TimMc	E.g. Maven.
11:28	Anderkent	youwahtnow
11:28	futile	Anderkent: I might have misunderstood. I thought his question was if it's bad practice to load up a file based on a string given from the cmdline.
11:28	TimMc	I guess Maven does allow that, but you really need to shovel on the XML.
11:28	Anderkent	but everyone loves xml
11:28	`cbp	~guards
11:28	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
11:28	ToxicFrog	futile: that is basically what I was asking, yes.
11:29	Anderkent	it's like lisp! Except instead of parens you have <configuration><property name="foo!"> ...
11:29	futile	ToxicFrog: I've always found it much harder to work with code that does that kind of thing.
11:29	Anderkent	D:
11:29	futile	ToxicFrog: In 99.99% of cases like this, I always end up creating some kind of intermediary mapping.
11:30	ToxicFrog	And I'm mostly coming from Lua, where this is a common idiom (and makes it very easy to extend later - just create the file or, at runtime, add another entry to the module preload table)
11:30	edannenbe	coventry, it's a lazy seq generated by clojure.math.combinatorics , i would only need sequential access tho (ie from start to finish once)
11:30	futile	ToxicFrog: A colleague did something similar, passing data from ClojureScript to Clojure and letting the coincidence of similar data names be the thing that ties it in to actual code, and said it was 'elegant', and I couldn't disagree more.
11:31	futile	ToxicFrog: yeah "easy to work with" is the commonly cited benefit, but in practice I've found it actually makes it more inflexible to change and more likely to introduce subtle hard-to-track-down bugs
11:32	ToxicFrog	futile: OTOH, I find it extremely inelegant to have a big map of { "foo" data.foo/io "bar" data.bar/io } that you need to update every time you want to add support for a new data source.
11:33	futile	ToxicFrog: That's the solution I went with in my window manager. Before this decoupling it was extremely hard to change anything about the names or implementation, without breaking backwards compatibility for users. Afterwards, I'm now free to refactor the internals however I want. I think that's always the case no matter how big the map is.
11:33	Anderkent	ToxicFrog: use a multimethod to get an object fullfilling a protocol
11:33	futile	ToxicFrog: In other words, I agree that it seems a bit cumbersome up front, but the decoupling it gives you will save you tons of headache in the future.
11:34	ToxicFrog	How was it a backwards compatibility issue?
11:34	Anderkent	then you can add methods to the multimethod in the namespace that declares the stream
11:34	ToxicFrog	Anderkent: I haven't done anything with multimethods or protocols
11:34	ToxicFrog	Got docs?
11:34	Anderkent	http://clojure.org/multimethods http://clojure.org/protocols
11:35	Anderkent	you might not need the protocols if your interface is simple
11:36	Anderkent	then the only messy bit is ensuring that the namespaces are loaded
11:37	futile	ToxicFrog: To use your example, if you want to rename those files, your users now have to type something else.
11:37	futile	ToxicFrog: Imagine if you renamed one of the files and several users already had some scripts written that call this thing with certain arguments. They all have to go in and change all the scripts to use the new arguments.
11:37	ToxicFrog	Anderkent: interface is extremely simple, two functions per data format, take/return a list of maps.
11:38	futile	ToxicFrog: In my example, they started out calling the things SDWindowProxy and later when I decoupled the interface from the implementation they had to rename it to Window (much better name).
11:39	ToxicFrog	Aah.
11:39	coventry	edannenbe: Have you considered using first and rest?
11:39	coventry	,(let [s (range)] (loop [i 10 s s rv []] (if (> i 0) (recur (dec i) (rest s) (conj rv (first s))) rv)))
11:39	clojurebot	[0 1 2 3 4 ...]
11:40	futile	Sometimes I feel like the only one in this channel that doesn't use clojure.math and clojure.logic
11:40	`cbp	Ive never used core.logic either
11:41	hyPiRion	futile: you forgot typed clojure
11:41	coventry	mdrogalis: It sounds like he's saying "Wire shit together with a thought for the people who'll use it," which sounds pretty reasonable.
11:41	futile	and clojure.async
11:42	futile	you can't spell "clojure" without #{\c \o \r \e}
11:42	Anderkent	clearly we need a project that puts logic, typed and async together
11:42	ToxicFrog	Anderkent: can I put (defmethods) for the same multimethod in different files?
11:42	futile	ToxicFrog: yes
11:42	Anderkent	ToxicFrog: yes
11:42	futile	ToxicFrog: that's a major benefit of them
11:42	clgv	ToxicFrog: yes, but you need to load those namespaces ^^
11:42	futile	ToxicFrog: implementations can be completely hidden from the user if need be
11:42	Anderkent	but watch out for cyclic dependencies
11:43	futile	clgv: that bit is several times already.
11:43	futile	*us
11:44	clgv	futile: couldnt you use the default implemention to throw or log an error so that you notice you forgot to load some implementation?
11:44	ToxicFrog	Awesome.
11:44	futile	clgv: the trick I was told about for working around that is to make sure that any function which can produce multi-method-capable data comes from the same function which requires it
11:44	futile	*the same file
11:44	clgv	that's a good rule ^^
11:45	futile	I haven't had a chance to put it into practice yet.
11:45	futile	But I like the idea.
11:46	edannenbe	coventry, still very green with clojure so no, gonna give it a try. thanks
11:46	Anderkent	ToxicFrog: https://www.refheap.com/18173 is a structure that works for me
11:47	coventry	No worries. Still green myself. There is probably a niftier way.
11:49	futile	If I'm ever on a team one day, I think a good idea would be to have the first line of a git commit msg be what it is, and the rest of the lines explain why.
11:49	ToxicFrog	Anderkent: excellent. Thanks.
11:49	futile	That would probably help for searching repos for specific changes, as well as understanding the rationale behind new/very-old ones.
11:50	Anderkent	futile: nah, best commits are the ones that go 'WIP' or 'almost done' or 'fuck.'
11:50	coventry	"Wrote a little code."
11:50	Anderkent	:D
11:51	Anderkent	'maybe now?;
11:51	hyPiRion	Oh, I got a good commit from lein I think, let me hit it up
11:51	edannenbe	http://whatthecommit.com/
11:52	hyPiRion	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/commit/ab080ec
11:52	llasram	hyPiRion: That is a pretty awesome commit
11:53	clgv	hyPiRion: harr!
11:53	futile	Anderkent: hey you've been reading my commits haven't you? https://github.com/sdegutis/zephyros/commits/master?page=11
11:53	Anderkent	woo
11:53	Anderkent	i like
11:53	asteve	java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.RT.mapUniqueKeys([Ljava/lang/Object;)Lclojure/lang/IPersistentMap;
11:53	Anderkent	My favourite one from the project I worked on
11:53	Anderkent	hm let me pull it up
11:54	llasram	futile: Remind me never to work with you professionally :-)
11:54	Anderkent	And where format-clojure went, rest vanished,for the small hours were rent with the screams of nightmare.
11:54	futile	llasram: to be fair, it looks more like this now: https://github.com/sdegutis/zephyros/commits/master?page=2
11:54	asteve	https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/clojure-mongodb/1llpYuBgVA4/zbsI5xQiMnUJ says that my error is caused by trying to run code compiled on 1.4 or higher while running 1.3
11:54	futile	:D
11:54	Anderkent	and the other: I am the emacs your whitespace god. You shall have no other formatters before me.
11:54	asteve	lein repl verifies that I'm running under 1.5.1: Clojure 1.5.1
11:55	futile	Anderkent: ha!
11:55	asteve	I ran a lein clean and then lein compile; then the lein uberjar
11:55	asteve	how is it possible that I'm running 1.3?
11:55	Anderkent	asteve: do `lein deps :tree`
11:55	clgv	asteve: did you upgrade? do `lein clean`
11:56	asteve	clgv: I am in the midst of upgrading and I have run lein clean a few times
11:56	Anderkent	if you're pulling in an evil dependency it might be overriding the clojure version
11:56	asteve	Anderkent: so I should look for clojure in the tree?
11:56	clgv	asteve: maybe you have an aot compiled dependency
11:56	asteve	if I see 1.5.1 I'm safe?
11:56	clgv	for that project yes
11:56	Anderkent	I'm not sure how it marks up stuff being overriden
11:56	Anderkent	you can do
11:56	lnostdal	137.35
11:57	Anderkent	lein pom; mvn dependency:tree
11:57	hyPiRion	asteve: Lein should usually take the one you pick, if not you're working with a bad lib
11:57	Anderkent	to see which ones take precendence
11:57	asteve	https://gist.github.com/sannessa/375dc42f566cb2c81417
11:57	Anderkent	hm, that should always give you 1.5.1
11:58	Anderkent	how do you run your jar?
11:58	asteve	so, I'm attempting to upload the jar to a storm cluster
11:58	Anderkent	is it possible theres another clojure.jar on the classpath?
11:58	asteve	hmm
11:59	coventry	Maybe "DEBUG=true lein <args>", and look for an earlier clojure in the output? Lots of spew from that command, though.
12:00	Anderkent	asteve: I take it it only happens on the cluster and not locally
12:00	asteve	Anderkent: yes, I'm realizing that I may need to make changes to the cluster
12:00	Anderkent	if so I'd check stuff like CLASSPATH= or the -cp arg
12:01	Anderkent	you shouldnt have to. If it just runs java -jar your.uber.jar then you shuold be totally fine with something else using a different clojure
12:01	Anderkent	ah wait, it's not a remote machine, its like hadoop job processor
12:01	hyPiRion	asteve: interesting. Could you do [org.clojure/clojure "[1.5.1]"] and check if it changes anything? I would NOT recommend keeping it, just check what it does
12:01	Anderkent	I'd say just stop compiling your stuff :D
12:02	hyPiRion	also, add in `:pedantic? :abort` if you want to ensure the dependencies you specify is not overridden by the other dependencies
12:02	asteve	hyPiRion: it didn't change the tree output
12:02	Anderkent	hyPiRion: I'm pretty sure they're not being overriden, it's just an issue of the remote jvm running with a different clojure version
12:03	futile	Is it just me or does anyone else do a whole lot of talking to themselves in their own github issues?
12:03	Anderkent	i.e. he gets both the uberjarred 1.5.1 clojure and the already loaded 1.3
12:03	hyPiRion	Anderkent: whacky
12:03	hyPiRion	futile: I do it all the time, and check out the Grenchman for same behaviour in our tooling God.
12:04	hyPiRion	It's super neat as a "todo" list
12:04	futile	lol 'Sorry about the name'
12:04	Anderkent	futile: I usually try to stop after 3 comments - https://github.com/marick/Midje/pull/237 https://github.com/lshift/cloverage/issues/21
12:04	futile	Anderkent: you're JacekLach?
12:04	Anderkent	yup
12:07	asteve	ya, my problem is the remote is currently running nimbus and storm with clojure 1.2 and a very old version of storm
12:07	asteve	I'm not sure why I didn't think of this earleir :)
12:07	Anderkent	glad to be of use :)
12:09	mdrogalis	`cbp & coventry: That makes sense. :) Thanks guys.
12:12	asteve	Anderkent]away: thanks
12:14	sandbags	anyone know how quickly you get approved to post to the clojurescript group?
12:15	mdrogalis	Hold dnolen hostage
12:15	bbloom	sandbags: posts get approved very quickly & i believe you get real posting privledges after a few approved posts automatically
12:16	sandbags	bbloom: very quickly < 1d ish ?
12:16	sandbags	mdrogalis: heh ... i guess that'd be my plan B
12:17	sandbags	i'm kind of stuck so hoping my post would go through reasonably quick
12:17	bbloom	sandbags: there are a few volunteers, myself included. i get emails about posts to be approved & usually get around to them within 1 day, but almost every time, somebody else has already gotten to it
12:17	sandbags	bbloom: okay, thanks
12:17	sandbags	i appreciate nobodies paid to do it, just wanted to set my expectations appropriately
12:17	seangrov`	sandbags: Hasn't your post already gone through?
12:17	sandbags	seangrov`: i couldn't see it just now
12:18	bbloom	sandbags: there might be one guy who is much faster than the rest of us and if he goes on vacation or something then the rest of us might assume this anonymous person who beats us to the punch will take care of it :-)
12:18	bbloom	sandbags: i just published it for you :-P
12:18	sandbags	bbloom: oh well, there's service for you! thank you :)
12:19	sandbags	is it a function of inexperience that Clojure stack traces often seem like gibberish to me (in a way that I don't remember, e.g., Ruby stack traces seeming)?
12:20	bbloom	cemerick: rock on with the touch carrying!
12:20	bbloom	torch* rather
12:20	bbloom	cemerick: glad to see cljsbuild springing back to life
12:20	cemerick	I thought that was some kind of hipster football reference for a second. :-P
12:21	cemerick	bbloom: just housekeeping, for a little while. Getting the idle CPU util down is great to have, tho.
12:21	cemerick	I'll be putting an 0.3.3-SNAPSHOT out there for people to try, once I have clojars privs from Evan
12:21	nDuff	sandbags: they're messier than most, but with experience, they're manageable.
12:21	sandbags	cemerick: is cljsbuild using the FSEvents API on OSX?
12:22	nDuff	sandbags: ...there are also tools available to filter them down to something more useful.
12:22	sandbags	if not that's potentially something i could help with
12:22	cemerick	sandbags: that's for watching files?
12:22	sandbags	cemerick: yep
12:22	sandbags	it's as near zero-cpu as you're going to get on OSX
12:22	bbloom	sandbags: yeah, bad stack traces are a problem… but even if the stack traces were less ugly, they wouldn't be super useful considering laziness, loop/recur, etc. you're better off with tracing/logging anyway
12:22	nDuff	sandbags: ...see for instance https://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-stacktrace
12:23	sandbags	nDuff: thanks
12:25	edannenbe	coventry, do-seq seems to be the simple solution to my earlier problem
12:25	clgv	is there a best practices tutorial for datomic? for example when should you use different partitions for entities?
12:25	cemerick	sandbags: definitely a TODO, though cljsbuild will use the JDK facilities when available. Adding support for platform-specific stuff doesn't make a lot of sense IMO. https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/issues/229 is the relevant issue if you want to dig in.
12:26	cemerick	sandbags: Note that if the impact to the existing codebase is significant (defined by "gives cemerick the willies w.r.t. breakage" :-P), then it'll end up being a 2.x feature.
12:27	cemerick	As it stands, the fix I just put in for gh-219 is a significant improvement w.r.t. cljsbuild auto CPU utilization. I'm actually unconvinced by the need for inotify-style watching given the perf I'm seeing of the existing approach.
12:29	sandbags	cemerick: i'll go out on a limb and assume the Oracle guys are smart enough to base this WatchService on FSEvents when the JVM is on OSX
12:30	mercwithamouth	does anyone have fireplace working in vim?
12:30	sandbags	"The implementation that observes events from the file system is intended to map directly on to the native file event notification facility where available" seems promising
12:30	cemerick	sandbags: oh, probably. I just meant that I'd only want to see a WatchService-based impl, rather than 3 impls based on some non-JDK native lib approach.
12:31	sandbags	i only brought it up because polling is such a horrible solution most of the time
12:31	sandbags	esp if you ever work on any decent sized projects
12:31	sandbags	i implemented this for a ruby tool a while back although i suspect C modules are easier to integrate with Ruby than Clojure ...
12:31	cemerick	sandbags: well, make sure to give 0.3.3-SNAPSHOT a try, I just optimized the current polling approach significantly.
12:32	cemerick	Cut my `cljsbuild auto` CPU util from 40% to < 1%.
12:32	jlongster	dnolen: I'm still having some trouble extending your core.async example. Here's a concrete case: make the (task (.-readFile fs) ...) form take another task as an argument. I'd like for the errors from that task to be propagated up to the supervisor
12:32	cemerick	mercwithamouth: yes, though I'm not using it at the moment.
12:32	ambrosebs	mercwithamouth: ya
12:33	sandbags	cemerick: hrmm not sure what i'm on at the moment but the CPU hit seems relatively negligible
12:33	mercwithamouth	darn...i couldn't get it to work for me 2 weeks ago.
12:33	mercwithamouth	well...it's working for you all...i'll tinker with it again tonight. do you guys just go emacs?
12:33	mercwithamouth	or light table(really cool...)
12:33	sandbags	that said, my project is pretty teeny-tiny
12:33	cemerick	sandbags: if that's the case, then why bother with inotify?
12:33	dnolen	jlongster: sorry I wasn't suggesting using supervisor pattern, just do error propagation
12:34	sandbags	cemerick: matter of principle, not all projects are going to be tiny, and why use CPU you don't need to?
12:34	cemerick	mercwithamouth: Nope, been using vim for some months, though I'm using my own fork of fireplace at this point.
12:35	cemerick	sandbags: Meh. What's there, works. If someone can point at a big project that doesn't play nice with auto, then it'll be worthwhile.
12:35	mercwithamouth	cemerick: hmm fair enough. i could just open a terminal below and open repl up that way
12:35	sandbags	cemerick: since i spend a lot of time on battery these days CPU has suddenly become very important again :) on my Mac Pro at home I waste it with abandon!
12:36	sandbags	cemerick: btw it wasn't meant to be a criticism, i just saw a possible place i might contribute something ... which in the Clojure world is a rarity
12:36	jlongster	dnolen: since youre sending errors on the same channel as values, I still can't see how you'd propagate, but I'm prob just missing it. an example of the task as an argument would be great (no rush)
12:37	cemerick	sandbags: Of course, didn't take it as criticism. :-) Was just being clear about why my criteria might be for accepting a patch. I'm happy for all the help I can get!
12:37	sandbags	cemerick: roger that!
12:37	dnolen	jlongster: make something wires the tasks together via channels, (pipeline foo task1 task2 task3), this effectively how promises work
12:37	cemerick	s/why/what
12:37	jlongster	dnolen: sidenote, once we figure out the error handling pattern, I'm eager to port some of core.async's optimizations to js. can't wait!
12:38	dnolen	jlongster: pipeline should be able to do this though
12:38	jlongster	dnolen: oh yes yes, like `forward` in my example? https://gist.github.com/jlongster/6374643 that's basically the conclusion I came to
12:38	dnolen	(pipeline foo task1 (supervisor task2 ...) task3)
12:38	dnolen	jlongster: which way cooler than the promise patterns you see :)
12:39	jlongster	dnolen: omg, seriously. I'm really excited about it.
12:39	sandbags	btw guys i get about ~5000 warnings from cljsbuild relating to things having no effect as externs (externing jquery-1.10.2)
12:39	sandbags	should i be worried about those?
12:39	seangrov`	jlongster: You're crazy prolific, always hacking on something interesting
12:40	sandbags	here's a sample: https://gist.github.com/mmower/0b158420f02b0c5f7dd0
12:40	jlongster	dnolen: it's nice to actually control the flow of things instead of doing a backwards-ass structure for promises
12:40	jlongster	seangrov`: hah, really? what makes you say that?
12:40	jlongster	I feel small in comparison to some of the guys here :)
12:41	seangrov`	This, your game programming, outlet, it was actually you that convinced me to do iOS dev with scheme (thoguh I used Chicken in the end instead of gambit), etc. etc.
12:41	jlongster	dnolen: wait, is pipeline an existing structure? that's something new right?
12:41	jlongster	it'd be nice of the core.async readme actually documented core.async
12:41	dnolen	jlongster: something new
12:41	dnolen	jlongster: that needs to be written
12:42	jlongster	seangrov`: oh nice! I just really enjoy to hacking on things. those things you mentioned have been over years time, so it's just here and there. glad to hear you're doing cool stuff!
12:42	dnolen	jlongster: would ben nice but core.async just provides a handful of primitives, just read cljs/core/async.cljs
12:42	jlongster	dnolen: ok, I'll attempt it but I'm sure I'll need your input
12:42	jlongster	(probably over the weekend, not during work today)
12:43	jlongster	at least sasy that in the README :)
12:43	jlongster	*say
12:44	jlongster	I say that as somewhat of an outsider to Clojure, of course
12:44	dnolen	jlongster: heh, it is alpha software after all, not sure if Rich is 100% API, though it sounds like that might be the case.
12:44	jlongster	true
12:46	sandbags	i found... well i can't say i found it more clear, but i had better questions, from reading the walkthrough.clj rather than the docs
12:46	sandbags	that reminds me, i have a question i wanted to post about one of the examples in the walkthrough
12:50	dnolen	jlongster: also even w/ the docs, it's not really enough to get your head around CSP style programming. The best resource is honestly reading Go code.
12:50	rasmusto	mercwithamouth: Are you using the latest fireplace (and leiningen)?
12:51	mercwithamouth	rasmusto: yup
12:52	rasmusto	mercwithamouth: I usually fire up a `lein repl :headless` in another terminal/screen, and then vim on a clj file, haven't had issues with connection
12:52	jlongster	dnolen: definitely, I just mean at least a list of available functions
12:53	rasmusto	mercwithamouth: what problem are you running into? (error message?)
12:53	jlongster	also is CSP really that mind bending? I find it the most natural/intuitive way to do async, much more than anything else (compared to FRP, promises, etc)
12:53	mercwithamouth	rasmusto: one sec
12:53	nDuff	Heh.
12:54	dnolen	jlongster: well I find it mostly natural, but thinking about potential deadlock requires a different frame of mind.
12:55	mercwithamouth	rasmusto: funny enough...it's working today -_-...before :Eval would give me a crazy message
12:55	jlongster	dnolen: good point
12:55	mercwithamouth	ahh i think my issue before was i didn't open a repl within the project
12:55	mercwithamouth	i'll admit i only played for 10 minutes and ran back to lighttable
12:55	rasmusto	mercwithamouth: ah, good to hear. Sometimes I will have to restart the repl or vim to get it out of some weird state
12:56	rasmusto	mercwithamouth: or do an explicit :Connect
12:59	`cbp	is there a way to have a map where i care about the order of the values and the values might repeat?
13:00	`cbp	Do I have to make sure the values are unique in the comparator or something?
13:00	mercwithamouth	rasmusto: yeah....it's definitely working now =P
13:02	`cbp	oh clojure-docs to the rescue
13:03	mercwithamouth	rasmusto: also it seems to be terminal vim only, not macvim, right?
13:03	sleetdrop	does ([5 10] 0) means get the first element? and why?
13:03	rasmusto	mercwithamouth: it should work if you use mvim with the right starting directory, (or do a :cd, and a :Connect)
13:04	rasmusto	,([5 10] 0)
13:04	clojurebot	5
13:04	`cbp	sleetdrop: a vector is a function of its indexes
13:04	mercwithamouth	rasmusto: taking a look.
13:05	rasmusto	sleetdrop: a vector is a function on its "keys", which in this case are indices ^
13:05	sleetdrop	thanks
13:06	rasmusto	sleetdrop: ,({:a 1 :b 2} :a)
13:06	rasmusto	,({:a 1 :b 2} :a)
13:06	clojurebot	1
13:06	rasmusto	sleetdrop: the same is true of maps
13:06	sleetdrop	rasmusto:thanks
13:07	silasdavis	which is nicer:
13:07	silasdavis	(apply merge (map hash-map [[1 2] [3 4]] (repeatedly hash-map)))
13:07	silasdavis	or
13:07	silasdavis	(reduce #(into %1 {%2 {}}) {} [[1 2] [3 4]])
13:07	silasdavis	?
13:07	silasdavis	(/faster)
13:07	silasdavis	,(reduce #(into %1 {%2 {}}) {} [[1 2] [3 4]])
13:07	clojurebot	{[1 2] {}, [3 4] {}}
13:07	rasmusto	sleetdrop: you might see something like this: (:a {:a 1 :b 2}), this is just sugar for doing it the other way
13:09	hyPiRion	,(reduce #(assoc %1 %2 {}) {} [[1 2] [3 4]])
13:09	clojurebot	{[3 4] {}, [1 2] {}}
13:10	silasdavis	yes that is better
13:11	hyPiRion	oh lord, I am stupid
13:11	hyPiRion	,(zipmap [[1 2] [3 4]] (repeatedly {}))
13:11	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentArrayMap>
13:11	hyPiRion	whap.
13:11	hyPiRion	,(zipmap [[1 2] [3 4]] (repeat {}))
13:11	clojurebot	{[3 4] {}, [1 2] {}}
13:12	sleetdrop	rasmusto: I am new to lisp like language, to many things to remember.
13:12	noncom	are deftype and defrecord special in terms that they are not entirely written in clojure?
13:12	callen	sleetdrop: you'll eventually develop gills and breathe parens naturally, then you'll be pissed when you're not in the nice warm water.
13:12	callen	noncom: read the code.
13:12	`cbp	sleetdrop: the argument for clojure is that there are _less_ things to remember than other languages :P
13:12	callen	`cbp: it's just familiarity.
13:12	rasmusto	sleetdrop: http://clojure.org/cheatsheet will be very useful, bookmark it :)
13:12	ozzloy	i'm trying to bring my bluetooth back up without rebooting. i just woke from suspend and now bt is not coming up. i've tried rfkill unblock and service bluetooth restart to no avail. what do? what log can i check for clues?
13:13	ozzloy	ubuntu 12.04
13:13	ozzloy	woops
13:13	ozzloy	wrong channel
13:13	hyPiRion	ozzloy: heh, wrong channel
13:13	rasmusto	ozzloy: have you tried (bluetooth) ?
13:13	`cbp	(get-in bluetooth [:logs])
13:14	ozzloy	thanks y'all
13:14	sleetdrop	rasmusto:thanks
13:29	functionform	sleetdrop
13:29	functionform	"It get's better!"
13:29	functionform	gets
13:30	functionform	Before I used to think in loops, now i'm mapping/applying/reducing my way to one line glory.
13:30	functionform	took me maybe 2 months on off hours using 4clojure.com to get up to speed. seeing other answers is so informative.
13:35	clgv	ozzloy: I gave up on bluetooth under linux ;)
13:45	silmawien	is there a standard function for doing (if (coll? arg) arg [arg]) ?
13:45	coventry	With functions wrapping functions, it would be nice if you could get a parallel traceback of the source locations for the functions in the stack trace. Are there any tools which provide this information? Is it possible, in principle?
13:46	silmawien	i.e. convert non collection args to a 1-item collection
13:49	futile	seeing_is_believing seems like a really cool alternative to the nrepl.el workflow
13:49	futile	https://github.com/JoshCheek/seeing_is_believing
13:50	futile	(for Ruby though)
13:50	futile	I wonder, would this be so hard to do in Clojure?
13:50	callen	futile: it already exists, tools.trace
13:50	callen	just...use it.
13:50	futile	oh
13:50	futile	yeah but does it have its own lightning talk demo too?
13:50	futile	re: http://vimeo.com/72195902
13:51	coventry	Didn't an early version of light table do this? (Don't know about later versions.)
13:51	bja	vim's slimv does this with <Leader>t
13:51	bja	presumably so does SLIME in emacs
13:52	callen	just tried to install a single and only package - cabal-dev, and it failed.
13:54	dnolen	silmawien: no such function exists, and in your case it seems like you want vector? not coll?
13:57	silmawien	dnolen: ok thanks, and yes that sounds right
14:00	`cbp	mm does lein upgrade work from 2.3.1 -> 2.3.2? It seems to just hang
14:00	tsantos	The clojure puzzler today sure is odd. I have no idea why the fail case is the fail case: http://techblog.zenrobotics.com/2013/08/clojure-puzzler-2.html
14:01	coventry	tsantos: I haven't followed it, but there was some discussion of it earlier today: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/#04:56
14:02	callen	`cbp: worked for me. reinstall if you must.
14:02	upwardindex	I'm generating svgs using hiccup. The fact that I'm using identical ids for gradients is getting me in trouble, is there a workaround?
14:02	`cbp	callen: maybe its just a windows issue.. like usual
14:03	`cbp	Ill get a mac soon and stop complaining :P
14:03	tsantos	coventry: how did you search the chat history and generate a URL like that?
14:04	callen	`cbp: good call :)
14:05	`cbp	Oh it finished, well it only took it like 30 mins
14:06	coventry	tsantos: searched for zenrob, moused over the LH margin next to sender name, which displayed time of the message. Clicked on that.
14:06	tsantos	coventry: ah, thx
14:13	silasdavis	if I have a set which I generally don't care about the order of, what is the best way to consume it in a consistent order within a particular scope
14:14	silasdavis	so that (zipmap set (map func set))
14:14	silasdavis	iterates set in the same order in both positions
14:14	silasdavis	?
14:16	`cbp	silasdavis: that will work, it doesnt switch order every time you use it :P
14:16	silasdavis	`cbp, yeah i sort of know it will work, but it feels like a weak guarantee
14:16	silasdavis	I'd rather make it explicit
14:16	seangrov`	What do I want to test for vector, list, etc? I thought it was seq?, but that doesn't seem to work
14:17	seangrov`	,(seq? [{"name" "test-a-riffic!", "source" "testing"}])
14:17	clojurebot	false
14:17	silasdavis	I suppose I could (let [s (seq set)] (zipmap set (map func set)))
14:17	coventry	seangrov`: Ran into the same thing this morning. There is a sequable? in clojure.incubator.
14:17	silasdavis	uh except with s substituted
14:17	`cbp	silasdavis: seq is implicit though in both zipmap and map
14:18	`cbp	silasdavis: You could just add a comment :P
14:18	`cbp	"hey trust me this will work!"
14:18	`cbp	..consistently!
14:18	dnolen	seangrov`: sequential?
14:19	rasmusto	sequibble
14:19	hyPiRion	a hash map or a set is not sequential, although they are seqable
14:19	coventry	dnolen: thanks.
14:19	seangrov`	dnolen: That works, thanks
14:20	`cbp	seangrov`: maybe this can help? https://github.com/yogthos/Selmer/blob/master/src/selmer/filters.clj#L39-L51
14:21	dnolen	coventry: seangrov`: also CLJS has seqable?, but in this case I think what you really want is sequential? which is more specific.
14:22	seangrov`	`cbp dnolen: Yeah, sequential looks right - I want to guard against a few conditions. Got a bug with strings being passed rather than vectors/lists, and also with hashmaps, etc.
14:22	seangrov`	Converting to the erlang-style of "don't correct input, raise an error as soon as possible"
14:22	coventry	silasdavis: You don't need it, but you can use juxt for that kind of thing.
14:22	coventry	,(into {} (map (juxt identity #(* % 2)) (range 10)))
14:22	clojurebot	{0 0, 1 2, 2 4, 3 6, 4 8, ...}
14:23	silasdavis	`cbp, it's implicit on each argument separably
14:25	`cbp	silasdavis: well referential transparency and all that (seq x) will always return the same thing given the same x
14:25	silasdavis	coventry, yes thanks I like that
14:26	cmatheson	i've been writing a network application in clojure/core.async, but i'm having to use the blocking versions of all the core.async functions/macros since java io is blocking.
14:26	cmatheson	which leaves me with the problem of multiple threads trying to write to the same socket at once
14:27	cmatheson	what is the proper clojurey way to avoid that? (normally i would just put a lock on the socket output stream)
14:28	dnolen	cmatheson: any reason to not use NIO
14:28	dnolen	cmatheson: or something else that provides non-blocking behavior like Netty?
14:28	cmatheson	dnolen: not really, i'm super unfamiliar with the java ecosystem and i wasn't really sure how to work with nio (seems like everyone uses netty)
14:29	cmatheson	maybe i should be using netty, does it play well with core.async? i guess it shouldn't matter that it has its own thread pool
14:29	swarthy	can anyone take a look at this 3 line paste and tell me if there is a better way https://www.refheap.com/18179 ?
14:30	dnolen	cmatheson: I don't see why there would be any issues using it w/ core.async, but I haven't tried it myself or anything.
14:31	justin_smith	swarthy: (defn in? [x xs] (some #{x} xs))
14:32	justin_smith	or does the result explicitly have to be a boolean?
14:32	llasram	swarthy: `some` already returns the logical true predicate value, so you don't need the `not=` -- the value will already be either `true` or `nil`
14:32	cmatheson	dnolen: ok thanks, i'll look into switching to netty. i guess i could look at clojurescript/node too
14:32	justin_smith	,(not (empty? (filter #{:a} [:a :b :c])))
14:32	clojurebot	true
14:32	swarthy	justin_smith: and llasram: thanks!
14:33	hyPiRion	(doc empty?)
14:33	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll has no items - same as (not (seq coll)). Please use the idiom (seq x) rather than (not (empty? x))"
14:33	justin_smith	llasram: it does not return true/false but the thing that was truthy/falsy
14:33	dnolen	cmatheson: there's also http://vertx.io/
14:34	llasram	justin_smith: ##(some nil? [1 2 3 nil 5])
14:34	lazybot	⇒ true
14:34	justin_smith	llasram: ##(some #{:a} [:a :b :c])
14:34	lazybot	⇒ :a
14:35	llasram	justin_smith: Sure, if you do that. That's why I didn't advise them to use the set idiom :-)
14:35	hyPiRion	it returns the first truthy value when calling f on an element in the coll
14:35	cmatheson	dnolen: thanks. so many choices...
14:39	swarthy	so with regard to (doc empty?) I don't want nil if the item doesn't exist in the coll, I want false
14:39	hyPiRion	(boolean (seq ...))
14:40	swarthy	excellent thank you
14:40	functionform	nil and false are both falsey
14:40	swarthy	but nil != false, how would I test for both cases
14:40	hyPiRion	but nil is not false
14:41	swarthy	hey hyPiRion, https://www.refheap.com/18179
14:42	swarthy	if I take away 'boolean' func
14:42	swarthy	i get the opposite results
14:42	llasram	swarthy: You don't want the `seq` in there
14:42	hyPiRion	er, well, you'd only want (some #(= % elt) coll) there
14:43	swarthy	okay but if its not there then some returns nil
14:43	swarthy	when I want false
14:43	hyPiRion	oh right, that was the thing
14:43	hyPiRion	(boolean (some ...))
14:43	xeqi	&(boolean (some {:d} [:a :b :c]))
14:43	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Map literal must contain an even number of forms
14:43	xeqi	&(boolean (some #{:d} [:a :b :c]))
14:43	lazybot	⇒ false
14:43	swarthy	&(boolean (some #{:a} [:a :b :c]))
14:43	lazybot	⇒ true
14:44	swarthy	excellent
14:44	xeqi	&(boolean (some #{nil} [nil]))
14:44	lazybot	⇒ false
14:44	hyPiRion	,(boolean (some #(= % nil) [nil]))
14:44	clojurebot	true
14:44	xeqi	(inc hyPiRion)
14:44	lazybot	⇒ 21
14:45	hyPiRion	the dangers of nil punning, brr
14:45	onr	Anyone here using IntelliJ IDEA?
14:45	xeqi	hyPiRion: the dangers of a type system that allows nils
14:46	swarthy	the only problem hyPiRion is that this: https://www.refheap.com/18179 doesn't work and I don't konw what I'm messing up
14:46	hyPiRion	swarthy: remove the seq again
14:46	swarthy	okay, so i have to have two tests then?
14:46	swarthy	because if i remove seq then look for a val not in seq
14:46	hyPiRion	nono, here's the thing
14:47	nDuff	onr: might be better to ask the real question.
14:47	nDuff	onr: if your real question is how popular IntelliJ is for Clojure, then we can point you at the survey.
14:47	hyPiRion	(some f coll) returns the first (f x) which is truthy, or nil otherwise
14:47	hyPiRion	boolean converts nil and false to false and anything else to true
14:47	onr	nDuff: you seem angry, maybe i should avoid intellij at all.
14:48	rasmusto	how do I do that bot thing? ~anyone ?
14:48	hyPiRion	swarthy: so (defn in? [x items] (boolean (some #(= x %) items))) is sufficient
14:48	onr	rasmusto: &(...)
14:49	nDuff	onr: Polling / popularity-contest questions are a good way to hurt signal/noise ratio on IRC. It's not really a matter of "angry".
14:49	justin_smith	,"hello"
14:49	clojurebot	"hello"
14:49	swarthy	hyPiRion: excellent, thank you very much for your help. I understand what is happening now.
14:49	justin_smith	##"hello"
14:49	rasmusto	onr: no, the canned response to "does anyone" questions
14:49	hyPiRion	no problem
14:49	xeqi	~anyone
14:49	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
14:49	llasram	What's that work-around for the JVM suppressing SIGPIPE?
14:50	rasmusto	xeqi: ty
14:50	llasram	My process is hanging around, pretending to pump bytes to a `less` process I've already quit...
14:51	hyPiRion	llasram: I thought the JVM gave up when it got a sigpipe? In either case, you could use beckon to modify the signal handling.
14:51	onr	nDuff: i wouldn't care that much
14:51	nDuff	...about what? IntelliJ? IRC etiquette?
14:52	hyPiRion	er, github's slow here, but https://github.com/hyPiRion/beckon should work, I think
14:52	hyPiRion	for handling signals, that is.
14:52	llasram	hyPiRion: Ooh, looks nice. Let's have a try...
14:55	llasram	hyPiRion: Ouch -- UnsupportedClassVersionError
14:55	hyPiRion	Boo
14:55	llasram	hyPiRion: Now I'm feeling some pain from still being on JVM 6
14:56	hyPiRion	Yeah, sorry, I should compile those with 1.6, but I tend to forget from time to time
14:56	hyPiRion	sec.
15:00	silasdavis	is there a standard higher order function that just returns the second argument
15:00	silasdavis	(identity n)
15:00	lazybot	n has karma -1.
15:00	silasdavis	or soemthing
15:01	hyPiRion	#(second %&) is a cheap one
15:06	hyPiRion	llasram: try it now, with 0.1.1
15:07	llasram	hyPiRion: Trying...
15:07	hyPiRion	If it doesn't work now I'll flip a table or two
15:07	silasdavis	hyPiRion, anything better than #(first %&) ?
15:07	hyPiRion	I wish
15:08	hyPiRion	not afaik
15:08	llasram	silasdavis: I've ended up carrying around functions I call arg0, arg1, and arg2. Not great, but not the end of the world either
15:08	llasram	hyPiRion: No exceptions!
15:09	llasram	Your tables are safe!
15:09	hyPiRion	wuhuu
15:09	swarthy	how would you use #(second %&) ?
15:10	Raynes	(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
15:10	hyPiRion	,(#(second %&) :one :two :three :etc)
15:10	clojurebot	:two
15:10	hyPiRion	(comp second list) also works.
15:10	llasram	&(reduce #(second %&) [1 2 3])
15:10	lazybot	⇒ 3
15:10	llasram	^^ THat's where I've wanted it
15:10	swarthy	Great, that makes sense.
15:12	amalloy	i dunno, #(second %&) seems like it would rarely be more readable than (fn [a b] b)
15:12	amalloy	especially if you can give meaningful names in the lambda
15:12	ztellman	callen: a logging library named after a paramilitary organization?
15:14	llasram	hyPiRion: And not only doesn't throw an exception, but also solves my SIGPIPE problem!
15:14	llasram	hyPiRion: Thank you muchly
15:14	swarthy	amalloy: as a newbie i agree. I made sense of that in a second, the other version required asking. Then again some things are not made for beginners.
15:15	hyPiRion	llasram: oh, no problem. I have no idea why I wrote that library in the first place, so good to see that it's useful for something :p
15:15	callen	ztellman: after a book about lumberjacks, but you know, I can go with that too.
15:15	callen	ztellman: that company isn't named Blackwater anymore, they're Xe now.
15:16	callen	they wanted something hippies couldn't pronounce.
15:16	ztellman	ha, I'm behind the times
15:16	ztellman	I had to go to a security convention in Vegas once, for work
15:16	callen	The library was an excellent excuse to abuse robert-hooke.
15:16	ztellman	they had dudes with what I assume were real submachine guns at each corner of the booth
15:16	TimMc	callen: Next they'll be named "Puppy Kisses". No one can protest against that!
15:16	callen	The Korma stuff is solid but I kinda need somebody to help me shake out the c.j.j parts.
15:17	ztellman	right next to the guy giving out free t-shirts if you touched an electric fence that had a little lemon slice attached to it by a string
15:17	ztellman	that was a weird time
15:17	callen	ztellman: not that uncommon in that sort of context, you just need a corporation with a manufacturer FFL or NFA stamps.
15:20	llasram	hyPiRion: So have we decided that single-component namespaces are ok? I thought the translation to packageless Java classes made them... unadvised, but beckon is no the first recent library I've seen do it
15:20	llasram	s,no,not,
15:22	tsantos	Paredit question: What's the command to delete the outer parens. Emacs won't let me ## ((+ 1 2))
15:22	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
15:22	amalloy	tsantos: (\|(+ 1 2)), M-r
15:22	coventry	tsantos M-r while on the second '('
15:23	tsantos	thanks! It's been driving me nuts.
15:24	llasram	Or M-s if you just want to bust out the level outside the cursoor
15:25	amalloy	i usually forget to use M-s
15:27	tsantos	messing around with split and raise… I'm getting raise but split's behavior is very odd
15:45	hyPiRion	llasram: well, library.core is not something needed here, because the library itself is so small
15:46	hyPiRion	I guess multi-namespaces make more sense when working with larger projects, but when you have "library.core" only, I feel the ".core" is a bit useless
15:47	`cbp	isnt the issue with single part namespaces that you cant use them from java?
15:47	llasram	hyPiRion: My understanding was the `.core` was just a convention to have something. With just `library`, JVM clojure generates classes like `library$function-name`, right? Package-less and sad
15:47	llasram	(and globally visible without ability to explicitly import)
15:50	stuartsierra	yes
15:50	stuartsierra	Which is why you should use a package-prefix instead of naming everything 'core'
15:56	TimMc	I don't actually know what the issue is with single-segment namespaces, but I keep telling people not to use them.
16:05	futile	ztellman: your tuples lib looks generic enough to fit into the core lib as an implicit optimization when creating small vectors
16:05	futile	*to fit into clojure as
16:06	futile	tsantos: also M-s
16:06	amalloy	TimMc: the default package is just really hard to use, particularly from java
16:07	amalloy	so creating piles of classes that live in it is rude
16:27	ztellman	TimMc: was that for the readme, or the code itself?
16:27	hyPiRion	or the name or something
16:27	ztellman	yeah, to hell with that name
16:28	callen	https://github.com/rixmann/clojure.otp dis gon b gud
16:29	callen	TimMc: how does 'black.water' strike you? It used to be blackwater.core :P
16:30	ucb	callen: have you toyed with quasar/pulsar?
16:30	ucb	callen: it's got some behaviours as well
16:32	grassclip	anyone here want to answer a question?
16:32	ztellman	grassclip: ask and see
16:34	grassclip	so this works (get [10 20 30] 1) and returns 10. Is there something like that which works (get [10 20 30] [1 2]) which would return [10 20]?
16:34	ztellman	,(map #(get [10 20 30] %) [10 20])
16:34	clojurebot	(nil nil)
16:34	ztellman	whoops
16:35	ztellman	,(map #(get [10 20 30] %) [0 1])
16:35	clojurebot	(10 20)
16:35	grassclip	bingo. thanks a lot
16:36	hyPiRion	oh what, clojure otp
16:36	hyPiRion	that's ages ago tho
16:37	ucb	hyPiRion: pulsar/quasar has otp behaviours now IIRC
16:37	coventry	,(map [10 20 30] [0 1])
16:37	clojurebot	(10 20)
16:37	mattmoss	throwdown
16:37	hyPiRion	ah, neat. Not that I've felt the need for it though.
16:39	grassclip	cleaner one. thanks
16:41	ztellman	coventry wins
16:53	coventry	Where do I get my code golf trophy?
16:53	callen	ucb: not yet.
17:00	TimMc	ztellman: Not the name, the single-segment namespace.
17:00	TimMc	nag, nag, nag
17:00	ztellman	who's going to use this outside of clojure?
17:00	ztellman	that's my normal criteria: if it's only useful to clojure folk, a single segment namespace is ok
17:02	ztellman	see also byte-streams and potemkin
17:02	bbloom	i like that
17:02	bbloom	mainly b/c i hate multi-segment namespaces :-P
17:02	Raynes	You're a bad person.
17:02	bbloom	i try
17:02	stuartsierra	I'm just a sadist who likes making people type more.
17:03	bbloom	stuartsierra: i don't mind the typing, we got aliases for that. i mind navigating folders when authoring the library :-P
17:03	callen	bbloom: black.water is just black/water.clj, not much to navigate.
17:03	bbloom	src/extrathing/annoys.me
17:04	callen	ITT: bikeshedding
17:04	stuartsierra	bbloom: That's why I write everything in org-mode :P
17:09	cored	hello
17:10	cored	why is that there's use and require to load libraries ? it's seems the same to me, at least at the moment
17:11	callen	cored: well they're not identical, but they're not fully orthogonal either.
17:11	callen	cored: people have been mumbling about getting rid of use in favor :require :refer :all
17:12	cored	callen: getting rid, like removing it from the language?
17:12	callen	rkneufeld: kinky.
17:23	hyPiRion	cored: more like deprecating. It won't dissappear for some time I guess
17:23	cored	hyPiRion: I see
17:37	TimMc	ztellman: I suppose.
17:37	callen	lastlog ztellman
17:37	callen	sigh.
17:37	TimMc	bbloom: I use src/org/timmc/... just for you.
17:37	TimMc	At least I have short domain.
17:39	clj_newb_2345	besides the people at relevance
17:39	clj_newb_2345	has anyone else in the world managed to grok pedestal?
17:40	shaunxcode	if I ever get around to putting up my new blog I promise you an article on such grokage
17:45	futile	Go has an interesting solution to platform-specific code.
17:45	callen	clj_newb_2345: are you working on complicated bidirectional client/server web applications?
17:45	futile	I wonder how its pros/cons compare to feature-expressions.
17:45	clj_newb_2345	callen: yes
17:46	callen	well. then Pedestal is potentially a credible solution but OTOH, if you want to build something like that but cannot understand Pedestal, then it might be time to simplify what you're trying to make.
17:46	callen	clj_newb_2345: #pedestal exists - you know.
17:46	clj_newb_2345	by definition, aaaren't all websites either (1) static, (2) bi-directional web apps, or (3) should be [2], but the programmers suck
17:46	callen	no.
17:47	shaunxcode	I think what callen is saying is that if you are trying to grok clojure web dev period pedestal may not be the place to start directly. Pick up ring on its own, compojure etc.
17:48	callen	shaunxcode: thank you for interpreting.
17:49	gtrak	pedestal's overkill until you really need a cohesive uniform async and message-passing bus, imo? json-rpc works fine for our single-page app and is also flexible.
17:50	gtrak	rpc-style, anyway, not the spec specifically
17:56	clj_newb_2345	http://www.learndatalogtoday.org/ is fucking badass
17:56	callen	gtrak: I'm of the same opinion.
17:57	gtrak	ours evolved to a compromise point between json-rpc and REST..
17:57	callen	clj_newb_2345: oh man, that is cool and I need it! I have coworkers to teach datalog to! Thank you for sharing :)
17:57	gtrak	i guess we could implement it in pedestal just as well as in compojure, not sure.
17:57	clj_newb_2345	someone else showed it to me last night
17:57	clj_newb_2345	I didn't get a chance to start playing with it today, but it's awesome
17:58	callen	clj_newb_2345: I'm testing Datomic for something at work, so this is very useful. :D
18:11	futile	yeah I'm gonna be using Datomic soon at work too so http://www.learndatalogtoday.org/ might very well be helpful
18:26	clj_newb_2345	datalog is fucking badass; why did no one team me datalog earlier?
18:27	seangrov`	clj_newb_2345: What're you using it for?
18:29	clj_newb_2345	this is going to be my web 3.0 facebook/google killer
18:29	clj_newb_2345	the exercises are so fun
18:30	gtrak	clj_newb_2345: have you considered php?
18:30	gtrak	it's really good for making websites :-)
18:31	tcrayford	anybody ever see an error like this out of clojure? "yeller.unique_priority_map.PersistentUniquePriorityMap cannot be cast to yeller.unique_priority_map.PersistentUniquePriorityMap"
18:31	tcrayford	?
18:31	gtrak	classloader boundary?
18:32	tcrayford	I don't think so :/
18:32	tcrayford	(unless I don't know what you mean by classloader boundary)
18:33	tcrayford	assuming test.generative doesn't do anything weird with classloaders, at the least
18:33	gtrak	huh
18:34	tcrayford	this results from just running the test.generative main script from the command line with lein
18:34	gtrak	I've only seen errors like that across classloaders.. is there anything special about the client code vs the called code?
18:34	tcrayford	something like this:
18:34	tcrayford	lein with-profile ci run -m clojure.test.generative.runner "test/yeller/unit/"
18:34	tcrayford	don't think so
18:35	tcrayford	it went away after a lein clean, lein compile offending-source-file
18:36	gtrak	interesting
18:36	gtrak	here's an example: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2371967/java-getting-class-cast-exception-where-both-classes-are-exactly-the-same
18:38	tcrayford	yeah, that makes sense
18:45	futile	"In the last century, their race grew weary of such traditional names, therefore library authors resorted to creative means, such as naming them a sound that could only be pronounced audibly, or a color itself, as opposed to the name of the color."
18:56	clj_newb_2345	anyone else wish core.match uses datomic style pattern matching?
18:57	callen	clj_newb_2345: if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
18:58	gtrak	not if I wish for more wishes. they would be buried in horses.
18:59	TimMc	futile: imma name my next library c̷͉̖̤̟͔̰̮̓͌̿̐ľ͍͌̇ͤj̢͎̗͕̰̙̝̓ͥ͐̊̃ͨͣ.̩̟͎ͅc̵̖̞̞͍̓ͦ͊͌ͫo̙̠͈͉̣̺̖ͤr̲̳̒ͮ̈́͛ͅe̠͇̯͖͂́̌̀̾́
18:59	futile	whoa
18:59	futile	impressive
18:59	clj_newb_2345	atleast it'll be easier to google than something like "Go" or "A+"
18:59	TimMc	(I apologize to anyone who now has a messed-up terminal.)
19:00	TimMc	/clear will remove the offending line from view and C-l will refresh your screen
19:00	futile	It's really idiotic that we still use terminal emulators.
19:00	futile	Surely we can come up with a bette contract than VTxxx. It's the 2010s already.
19:00	callen	"idiotic"
19:01	callen	futile: by all means, invent another terminal protocol nobody will use.
19:01	bbloom	futile: my theory on that is that the BEST FEATURE of terminals is immutability. at least, in theory, your shell is a log
19:01	bbloom	futile: everybody else who has ever tried has made some sort of stupid object shell thing
19:01	callen	^^ what this guy said.
19:01	futile	In order to write a GUI tool that supports "less", you need to emulate at least a VT100.
19:01	callen	futile: I'll collect my tears in a bucket for you.
19:01	futile	callen: I'm not saying I can do it.
19:02	callen	I need to write a bayesian filter that filters for conversation about doing actual 'things'.
19:02	futile	callen: yep, good old callen
19:03	bbloom	callen: if you try not saying anything, maybe the conversations you don't like will just scroll past you and your life will be better
19:05	coventry	clj_newb_2345: I have worked through the first part of the pedestal tutorial, and I think I grok it. It was tough going, though. I am planning to use it in a couple of weeks, after I've developed some backend components.
19:05	callen	bbloom: but the log is immutable :(
19:06	callen	I'm just asynchronously rotating to the IRC channel, checking to see if anybody's doing something other than complaining about things they didn't write, then cmd-tab'ing back to my work.
19:07	callen	I'm starting to understand why caboose exists.
19:08	clj_newb_2345	why hasn't anyone written a clojure library that only shows me what I wnat to read?
19:08	clj_newb_2345	it should use reinforcement learning by looking at how I respond to it
19:08	clj_newb_2345	and use the webcam to read my facila expressions
19:08	clj_newb_2345	for approval/disaproval
19:08	gtrak	I haven't ever used a clojure library that I didn't end up reading every line for
19:09	gtrak	I just do it upfront now
19:10	clj_newb_2345	gtrak: what libraries have you used?
19:10	gtrak	uhh
19:10	gtrak	:-)
19:12	gtrak	compojure... friend... slingshot.. ring, clj-hadoop, cascalog, leiningen (ok I guess not all the way), tools.nrepl, data.csv, cheshire.. nothing too huge.
19:12	gtrak	but it adds up
19:13	gtrak	just looking through a single project.clj and seeing if I remember looking at the guts..
19:16	coventry	clojure.core? :-)
19:16	gtrak	yea ofc
19:16	clj_newb_2345	WOOT WOOT WOOT
19:16	clj_newb_2345	finished datalog tutorial
19:16	clj_newb_2345	where is the confetti ?
19:16	callen	I'm starting to understand why caboose exists.
19:17	callen	whoops, wrong term.
19:17	gtrak	clj_newb_2345: confetti is you get to read https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj
19:17	clj_newb_2345	gtrak: I've already read all 128 characters used in that file
19:18	gtrak	quick, what's the md5sum?
19:18	clj_newb_2345	2392802482042
19:19	clj_newb_2345	as part of my training for mental mining bitcoin, I can do sha256 coins mentally too
19:19	clj_newb_2345	the datomic tutorial now finally starts to make sense
19:24	clj_newb_2345	holy shit datomic licensing is expensive
19:25	Raynes	Welcome to the wonderful world of proprietary software by people who have a need to make money.
19:25	bbloom	clj_newb_2345: you've clearly never seen an oracle price sheet
19:25	clj_newb_2345	no
19:25	clj_newb_2345	I tend to only use open source software
19:25	Raynes	bbloom: Expensive relative to <insert something here>
19:25	clj_newb_2345	datomic starting license
19:25	bbloom	www.oracle.com/us/corporate/pricing/technology-price-list-070617.pdf‎
19:25	clj_newb_2345	is more expensive than my macbook pro 17
19:25	Raynes	Not necessarily expensive relative to <insert highest priced database ever>.
19:25	`cbp	so many mcchickens you can buy instead
19:25	Raynes	Mine too.
19:25	Raynes	Because mine was free.
19:25	s4muel	"In devops we are face fiscal cliff every year when Oracle license is up for renew." - @devops_borat
19:25	Raynes	Because my company owns my computer ;p
19:26	gtrak	$47k a cpu?
19:27	clj_newb_2345	if someone wrote a datomic clone
19:27	clj_newb_2345	woudl they get kicked from #clojure?
19:27	seangrov`	I wish thye were more evil abotu datomic
19:28	seangrov`	Wow, typos
19:28	bbloom	lol what a weird thought: "They make good software and I like them, but I wish they made good software and I didn't like them, so I could clone their software and be a hero"
19:28	seangrov`	But really, let me "scale up" a bit more and get good and locked-in, then ask me to pay
19:29	seangrov`	Otherwise I'm nervous about even getting started
19:29	gtrak	you'll have to pay in hardware if you use a bad architecture
19:31	clj_newb_2345	alternatvely
19:31	clj_newb_2345	they could make datomic ree
19:31	clj_newb_2345	and charge for the support
19:31	clj_newb_2345	like, say, Red Hat
19:32	sandbags	anyone here able to help with with my clojurescript+core.async problem https://gist.github.com/mmower/88353e592f169bef7df9 ?
19:33	sandbags	i'm kinda stuck and really have no idea what might be wrong
19:33	callen	I just used core.async blocking take and async put to make a safe (no global mutable state) test case. :)
19:33	callen	very pleasing.
19:38	sandbags	seems the problem is nothing to do with using <! inside a (loop ...)
19:40	sandbags	i don't see how this is working for anyone ... or what i am doing that's so horrendously stupid
19:41	dobry-den	Anderkent]away: return the rc in click-chan
19:41	dobry-den	sandbags: *
19:42	sandbags	ah, did i miscopy something... let me see
19:42	sandbags	yerp
19:42	sandbags	thanks dobry-den
19:43	sandbags	dobry-den: that certainly is more correct, but doesn't seem to have affected the error i am getting
19:43	abp	sandbags: you need (:require-macros [cljs.core.async.macros :as m :refer [go]])
19:44	dobry-den	oh yeah
19:44	dobry-den	that got me for a while
19:44	sandbags	abp: that's odd, i seem to get getting "go" from cljs.core.async
19:44	sandbags	at least, i copied that from somewhere
19:44	sandbags	did it change?
19:45	dobry-den	sandbags: i wrote my first cljs app last week and this is what i've got https://github.com/danneu/speed-reader/blob/master/src/cljs/speed_reader/core.cljs
19:45	sandbags	ah, that seems to have eliminated the error i was seeing, thanks abp
19:45	dobry-den	i see that i have go from both async and macros. i imagine the :require 'go' i just forgot to take out
19:45	sandbags	how very odd
19:46	dobry-den	i imagine it catches most people
19:46	abp	sandbags: it's a macro, so you certainly need to use :require-macros in cljs
19:47	abp	probably cljs doesn't check if everything refer'd exists..
19:47	sandbags	abp: interesting, so you need to know what are functions, and what macros
19:47	sandbags	presumably any macro you use must be require-macro'd?
19:47	futile	wat
19:47	dobry-den	that's how i see it
19:48	abp	at least I don't see go in https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/main/clojure/cljs/core/async.cljs
19:48	sandbags	abp: it's most probable that (not knowing about require-macro) i was copying something else i had seen and just assumed i was doing it correctly
19:48	sandbags	seems a bit of a bind having to require func & macro separately
19:48	dobry-den	https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/main/clojure/cljs/core/async/macros.clj
19:49	sandbags	hrmm... is don't see a macro predicate
19:50	abp	there we go http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-569
19:51	sandbags	anyway, abp, dobry-den many thanks
19:51	sandbags	at least i am debugging less inexplicable errors now :)
19:52	clj_newb_2345	can datomic free edition be used in commercial products?
19:52	dobry-den	sandbags: i have various classes of cljs+async errors fresh in memory from using it last week
19:52	sandbags	:)
19:54	sandbags	dobry-den: you like domina?
19:55	dobry-den	yeah
19:55	dobry-den	not that i have many preferences. ive never even written a client-side js app before
19:56	dobry-den	i found it really easy to fake it til i made it with core.async though
19:56	sandbags	me either, i dislike JS so always try and ensure someone else writes it :)
20:18	mihneadb	how would I use enlive to select only the direct descendants of the given element?
20:18	mihneadb	something like (select elem [:> :a])
20:18	mihneadb	^ that one doesn't seem to work
20:19	mihneadb	it works when I go one up and I do (select parent-elem [:something :> :a])
20:22	sandbags	okay i have my first cljs+core.async app working : i can go to bed a reasonably happy man!
20:23	sandbags	thanks again for your help abp and dobry-den
20:25	juliangindi	I've been reading a lot about Clojure and making my way through 4Clojure but can't seem to truly "grasp" the language. Any suggestions or advice?
20:28	gdev	how long have you been using it?
20:30	mihneadb	I want to do generate a map by applying a function over a sequence - should I use for, or something else?
20:30	juliangindi	I have been reading "Clojure Programming" and working with 4Clojure for a couple of weeks. I am looking for a larger "toy project" as well
20:31	llasram	mihneadb: There are a few common idioms depending on context. Usually either `reduce` or `(into {} (map ...)`
20:31	mihneadb	llasram: for the into version, I guess the mapped function has to return a two-value collection, right?
20:31	mihneadb	or should it be an actual map?
20:32	llasram	mihneadb: A sequence of pairs (as vectors), yeah
20:32	mihneadb	llasram: sweet, thank you
20:34	gdev	juliangindi, depending on how much time you dedicate to it, you should "get it" in about another month and a half
20:34	callen	god that test code was fucking sweet.
20:34	mihneadb	llasram: is there an easier way to make a vector out of two elements other than (vec (list 1 2)) ?
20:35	gdev	juliangindi, what are the primary languishes you code in?
20:35	llasram	mihneadb: ##(vector 1 2)
20:35	lazybot	⇒ [1 2]
20:35	mihneadb	ah damn it
20:35	mihneadb	I was trying with vec
20:35	mihneadb	thanks!
20:35	juliangindi	I program primarily in Python and JS with Node
20:36	gdev	callen, I've been trying to document blackwater. we need to talk
20:37	callen	gdev: are you working from the current version?
20:38	callen	gdev: I added some documentation.
20:38	llasram	mihneadb: Oh, wait, or even just literally ##[1 2]
20:38	lazybot	⇒ [1 2]
20:38	mihneadb	heh
20:38	mihneadb	nice
20:38	mihneadb	ty
20:38	mihneadb	I was trying to do something like #([% %])
20:38	callen	gdev: I also changed the library substantially from 0.0.3 to 0.0.5
20:39	llasram	mihneadb: Oh, yeah, for that one a somewhat-common idiom is ##(map #(-> [% %]) (range 5))
20:39	lazybot	⇒ ([0 0] [1 1] [2 2] [3 3] [4 4])
20:39	mihneadb	(into {} (map #([% %]) [1 2 3])) << this wasn't working
20:39	gdev	callen, oh lol I haven't even set up my gitconfig upstream >_<
20:39	mihneadb	uh
20:39	mihneadb	ok
20:39	mihneadb	thanks llasram
20:39	callen	gdev: git remote add upstream git://github.com/bitemyapp/blackwater
20:40	gdev	callen, danke ;D
20:41	callen	gdev: I have the highest variance in code quality of libraries from early versions to later versions of anybody I know, you've really gotta keep up on those pulls while the library is still young.
20:42	mihneadb	llasram: and if I have two map results that I want to return as just one seq, what's the idiomatic way of doing it?
20:43	llasram	mihneadb: Not 100% certain what you mean. Maybe `juxt`?
20:43	llasram	&(map (juxt inc dec) (range 5))
20:43	lazybot	⇒ ([1 -1] [2 0] [3 1] [4 2] [5 3])
20:43	mihneadb	llasram: I'm looking for the equivalent of append in scheme, I guess
20:43	mihneadb	++ in haskell
20:43	gdev	callen, yeah I went ahead and set up a cron job to pull every hour =D
20:44	mihneadb	llasram: concat!
20:44	mihneadb	:D
20:44	llasram	Yep!
20:45	callen	gdev: that's...scary.
20:45	llasram	Interesting
20:47	dobry-den	What's the best way to (File. _) a folder that's in the same folder as the jar that's accessing it?
20:47	llasram	dobry-den: Just put the file in the JAR to begin with, so you can access it as a resource?
20:47	TimMc	Here is a thing I don't understand: If I run (#(%foo) 5 6 7) at the REPL, I get the expected exception. (Three, actually.) If I then hit enter again, I see "567". Why?
20:48	callen	gdev: so have you seen the current state of the code / docs?
20:48	gdev	callen, grokking out right meow
20:49	llasram	TimMc: Must be some sort of buffering in your REPL. In nrepl.el, I get (Exception, Exception, 5, 6, 7, Exception)
20:49	llasram	Which makes "sense" -- parse ends up in a funky state twice, sees 5 6 7 as separate forms, then exception again on the "unexpected" `)`
20:50	llasram	Right?
20:50	dobry-den	llasram: the idea is to drop blog.jar into a folder that also contains a 'posts' directory and it will serve them (markdown files)
20:50	mihneadb	is there some sort of pretty-print function in clojure? for json printing
20:50	gdev	callen, yeah, where them doc strangs at?
20:50	TimMc	llasram: Yeah, that seems legit.
20:51	llasram	mihneadb: You can pretty-print Clojure data with clojure.pprint/pprint
20:51	callen	gdev: well, they're not everywhere.
20:51	callen	gdev: just in the important parts. look at the README. https://github.com/bitemyapp/blackwater
20:51	mihneadb	llasram: I d like to pprint json data
20:51	gdev	callen, I'm gonna need them...everywhere
20:51	callen	gdev: I have no problem doing that - but why?
20:51	gdev	callen, wanted to use marginalia on it
20:51	callen	oh, margle-gargle.
20:52	llasram	mihneadb: cheshire's `generate-*` functions can take a `:pretty` option which pretty-prints the results
20:52	mihneadb	llasram: I was looking at data/json
20:52	mihneadb	thanks
20:52	callen	I'll do some more clean-up then.
20:52	gdev	callen, I'm a maintainer of that liberry so I'm kinda biased ya know ;D
20:53	callen	gdev: I didn't know that. I marg-i-nized Selmer :P
20:54	llasram	dobry-den: Hmm. Interesting. You can certainly use `io/resource` to get a `jar:` URL for a resource in your JAR. From there you could take the URL apart to find the path of the JAR
20:54	llasram	dobry-den: There might be a better solution though -- that seems relatively hacky
20:57	cmatheson	/exit
20:58	gdev	callen, yeah I saw that =D
20:59	gdev	juliangindi, are you Julian25 on github?
20:59	juliangindi	yes i am :)
21:01	gdev	juliangindi, what about on 4clojure?
21:01	callen	gdev: for the love of god, change the newlines to unix for `lein marg`
21:01	Raynes	lol
21:01	callen	gdev: nothing pisses me off faster than, "fatal: CRLF would be replaced by LF in docs/uberdoc.html"
21:01	gdev	callen, that will be in the next release at the end of the year #waterfall
21:02	juliangindi	gdev: I'm juliangindi on 4clojure…just started
21:03	callen	gdev: I might kill you.
21:03	gdev	Raynes, should I unassign you from this one? https://github.com/gdeer81/marginalia/issues/73
21:04	callen	gdev: https://rawgithub.com/bitemyapp/blackwater/master/docs/uberdoc.html
21:04	xeqi	dobry-den: are you running the jvm from the directory the jar is in?
21:04	dobry-den	xeqi: No
21:06	dobry-den	I found solutions to get the path of a jar using .getClass(). is there a class that's always present in a Clojure app that I can rely on to call ClassName.getClass()?
21:07	callen	gdev: 0.0.6, marg docs are up.
21:08	gdev	callen, it's so...so beautiful. :')
21:08	callen	it's one of the simplest libraries I've ever written. :\|
21:08	callen	I don't see why everything needed a doc string.
21:08	callen	It doesn't even really explain anything.
21:08	callen	If anything needed explained, it's that damn robert.hooke magic.
21:08	callen	most people won't understand wtf (add-hook ...) is.
21:09	gdev	callen, that's not marg's fault, its up to you to make it understandable ;)
21:09	callen	gdev: I'm just saying the literate approach isn't always the highest value thing in the world.
21:09	Raynes	gdev: Oh God yes please.
21:11	mihneadb	If you only need AOT for your uberjar, consider adding :aot :all into your
21:11	mihneadb	:uberjar profile instead.
21:11	mihneadb	how do I do this^ ?
21:11	mihneadb	I can't find a sample
21:11	mihneadb	only found :uberjar-name
21:11	TimMc	In your project map, add :profiles {:uberjar {:aot :all}}
21:11	mihneadb	thanks!
21:11	TimMc	or something like that?
21:12	gdev	Raynes, probably should close this issue since the lein plugin kinda obviates the need for a standalone command line version amirite?
21:12	TimMc	Or use lein-otf. :-D
21:12	mihneadb	TimMc: will look into it, thanks
21:13	callen	TimMc: pretty glad you made that :)
21:13	gdev	"otf is not a task, did you mean this? lein wtf"
21:13	xeqi	dobry-den: clojure.lang.RT ?
21:15	gdev	callen, well if you want it to be enterprise-ready it's gonna need a lot of documenstration =/
21:15	TimMc	callen: How do you find it useful?
21:17	TimMc	I wrote it mainly because I find AOT overcomplicating and distasteful, but I don't actually have a practical use for it.
21:20	callen	TimMc: I just like the option of it handy.
21:20	callen	gdev: :\|
21:22	qz_	is there any idiomatic way to process sequences with lookahead/skip? say i have list of strings and need to merge strings starting with 'A' with next string?
21:38	TimMc	qz_: Something with (partition 2 1 (concat [nil] ... [nil])) and treating the last element specially.
21:39	qz_	TimMc: but how do i skip element after merging?
21:39	callen	Selmer cheated by using an actual peek :P
21:41	dobry-den	xeqi: haha yes thanks.
21:41	TimMc	qz_: Or loop/recur with peeking.
21:42	dobry-den	(-> clojure.lang.RT .getProtectionDomain .getCodeSource .getLocation .getPath)
21:42	callen	,(-> clojure.lang.RT .getProtectionDomain .getCodeSource .getLocation .getPath)
21:42	clojurebot	#<AccessControlException java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission getProtectionDomain)>
21:42	dobry-den	haha
21:42	dobry-den	jailed
21:48	TimMc	qz_: Did you understand the loop/recur suggestion?
21:53	qz_	TimMc: reading about loop/recur, never used it before
21:59	dobry-den	qz_: so you want ["Apple" "Ace" "Bonk" "Animal" "Ancient"] -> ["AppleAce" "AnimalAncient"]
22:01	dobry-den	I meant to add a "?"
22:01	dnolen	doing sensible async error handling in JS/Node.js looks comical in comparison to this - http://gist.github.com/swannodette/6385166
22:02	dobry-den	qz_: If that's what you want, check out partition-by (http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/partition-by) which will split a coll any time pred changes.
22:05	dobry-den	dnolen: tight
22:06	dnolen	dobry-den: yep, you can just use <? to convert an async error into an exception locally
22:26	dnolen	updated with some comments - http://gist.github.com/swannodette/6385166
22:27	dnolen	converting async errors into exceptions looks like a sweet little pattern
22:52	SegFaultAX	Value of Values is just such a damn good talk.
22:53	bbloom	SegFaultAX: the new talk is out too: composition, design, & performance
22:58	SegFaultAX	bbloom: Yea, I watched it the other night.
22:58	SegFaultAX	bbloom: One of his more meta talks. Strange, but extremely enjoyable IMHO.
22:59	bbloom	yeah, saw it at clj/west, really liked it
23:04	dobry-den	How can I do something like this? (let [person {:name "Chuck"}] (read-string "[:h1 (:name person)]")) -> [:h1 "Chuck"]
23:05	TimMc	http://www.learndatalogtoday.org/chapter/3 suddenly introduces tuples, collections, and relationships all very suddenly. I was following the tutorial nicely up until that point.
23:06	SegFaultAX	dobry-den: You'll have to do eval. But why?
23:07	TimMc	Sounds like someone wants templating with databinding.
23:07	dobry-den	Yeah, that's it
23:07	dobry-den	SegFaultAX: thanks
23:08	TimMc	dobry-den: You probably do not want eval.
23:09	TimMc	Whenever you think you do, it's usually time to take a step back and think about how you've structured things.
23:09	SegFaultAX	(inc TimMc)
23:09	lazybot	⇒ 46
23:10	crocket	Does clojure provide such modularity concept as OSGi and Jigsaw?
23:10	dobry-den	TimMc: Basically I'm writing a blog system like Jekyll where index.hiccup has access to a 'config' map so index.hiccup can just contain "[:h1 (:title config)]"
23:11	SegFaultAX	dobry-den: If you're creating templates that need to be eval'd as normal code, why not just use eg Selmer?
23:12	TimMc	crocket: Ask nDuff about OSGi, I think.
23:12	crocket	OSGi is tied to JVM.
23:12	crocket	Clojure escaped JVM as ClojureScript.
23:14	TimMc	dobry-den: You'll also want to html-encode whatever value you get out of the data structure.
23:16	TimMc	I generally disrecommend hiccup because it does not HTML-encode values by default, which makes it unsuitable for general-purpose web development.
23:20	ddellacosta	can't get the basic first steps (http://palletops.com/doc/first-steps/) with pallet working. UnknownHostException ("ec2.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com")
23:20	ddellacosta	anyone have any experience with this? #pallet seems kinda dead
23:20	SegFaultAX	TimMc: Disrecommend? Is that a word?
23:20	TimMc	It is when I use it.
23:21	SegFaultAX	Heh
23:21	SegFaultAX	ddellacosta: I really have no idea how people use pallet.
23:21	SegFaultAX	The documentation is less than worthless.
23:21	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: and here I thought I was going to make my AWS shizzle all efficient and stuff
23:21	SegFaultAX	ddellacosta: Ansible, yo.
23:22	dobry-den	,(let [x 1] (eval (read-string "(+ 1 x)")))
23:22	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
23:22	dobry-den	It does not see x in that context.
23:23	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: hmm, bummer, I was hoping to do this in Clojure. sigh
23:23	SegFaultAX	ddellacosta: Totally not worth it IMHO.
23:23	tbatchelli_m	ddellacosta: http://palletops.com/doc/faq/jclouds-aws/
23:24	llasram	dobry-den: AFAIK there's no way to e.g. `eval` with some sort of existing lexical context
23:24	SegFaultAX	That's a good example of how useless the docs are.
23:24	llasram	dobry-den: If you want to define something in normal code which is then available in an `eval`ed form, you need to e.g. hang it off a var w/in a namespace
23:24	SegFaultAX	Haha, the comment on that page is amazing.
23:26	SegFaultAX	ddellacosta: Anyway, the jvm startup time is just too damn slow when you're trying to rapidly iterate ops stuff.
23:26	ddellacosta	tbatchelli_m: thanks, but it barfed again. It just doesn't seem smart enough to properly construct a ec2 URL
23:26	SegFaultAX	Clojure makes for a really shitty scripting language. Ansible is really stupidly easy to get going.
23:27	SegFaultAX	Once you grok the core concepts, it goes really fast.
23:27	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: I'm slowly, painfully starting to agree with you
23:27	ddellacosta	I really would rather use Pallet
23:27	SegFaultAX	Source: I've been head down in Ansible for the last 2 weeks straight.
23:27	SegFaultAX	ddellacosta: I wanted to as well. I mean not necessarily pallet, but at least something like it.
23:27	SegFaultAX	It doesn't appear to exist.
23:28	llasram	SegFaultAX: I'm not sure slow JVM startup is really a factor.... I mean, e.g. Puppet and Chef use persistent daemons to do all the heavy lifting
23:28	SegFaultAX	And after using chef and puppet for years, I came upon the glory of Ansible. And I've been quite happy.
23:28	SegFaultAX	llasram: Ansible is push based.
23:28	llasram	Somewhat unconvinced that that's a selling point :-)
23:29	SegFaultAX	llasram: It's /a/ selling point. It also lacks the soul-crushing complexity of Chef.
23:29	SegFaultAX	And the documentation doesn't make me want to slaughter kittens.
23:30	llasram	haha. Honestly haven't used Chef. Went with Puppet for semi-arbitrary reasons several years ago, and haven't had significant reason to re-evaluate
23:30	SegFaultAX	Anyway, Python is one of the de facto scripting languages in the ops world. Along with perl and bash. So it's a natural choice.
23:32	llasram	Hmm. So the ansible model is essentially sets actions to take on sets of systems, vs the puppet/chef model of declarative state?
23:32	SegFaultAX	llasram: Puppet is a significant improvement over Chef, but it's still very very complicated.
23:32	fkey	in clojurescript, is there a way to get at the parsed expression tree? i created a parser but was wondering if there is a more succinct way to do things...
23:33	SegFaultAX	llasram: Essentially yes, plays are just lists of tasks applied to sets of hosts.
23:33	SegFaultAX	llasram: With the (incredibly important) constraint that all operations are intended to be idempotent.
23:33	llasram	Hmm. Interesting.
23:34	SegFaultAX	llasram: Also, if you really must have an agent based CMDB, ansible has a pull mode.
23:35	SegFaultAX	But the default and most popular workflow is push based.
23:36	llasram	SegFaultAX: You've convinced me it might be of interest :-). I will definitely look more into it later
23:37	SegFaultAX	llasram: In fairness, if your infrastructure is already built around one of the other popular options (chef, puppet, salt, whatever) then whatevs.
23:37	SegFaultAX	But for building out new infrastructures, the relative simplicity is a huge win.
23:38	llasram	SegFaultAX: Indeed (re: already built), but there is always The Future (tm)
23:48	technomancy	I could never get over the facepalm of having a completely new language to learn with puppet, even if the design is otherwise better than chef.
23:48	SegFaultAX	Chef's DSL is equally wtf.
23:49	technomancy	the semantics are awful, but at least the syntax is widely understood
23:49	SegFaultAX	Well yea, I guess it's better that it reuses block syntax.
23:49	SegFaultAX	Ansible avoids both of those problems by using plain old YAML.
23:49	llasram	technomancy: In fairness, they tried to add an internal DSL version, but nobody used it, I assume because the external DSL is just much more compact.
23:51	technomancy	adding another option might be nicer when writing, but you still have to learn to read both
23:51	SegFaultAX	technomancy: What does Heroku use internally to manage infrastructure?
23:52	cemerick	YAML can be characterized as "plain old"? Hum.
23:53	llasram	technomancy: Eh. I think I'd prefer s-exps for everything at this point, but it's honestly not that much to keep around in your head.
23:53	technomancy	SegFaultAX: chef is used for some really low-level stuff (thankfully nothing I have to touch) but we have another system similar to what we expose to customers for managing apps running on "raw" ec2 nodes
23:53	SegFaultAX	cemerick: Fair. Code = Data = Code is a feature for ansible.
23:53	llasram	Now that I've offloaded all spacial reasoning to GPS devices, I've got pleeenty of room for extra programming language syntaxes
23:54	cemerick	SegFaultAX: I was only saying, it's not like YAML is ubiquitous or something. XML or JSON or INI can be "plain old", but...YAML?
23:55	SegFaultAX	technomancy: Neat.
23:55	TimMc	Why, back in my day...
23:55	SegFaultAX	cemerick: YAML is pretty common in the Ruby world.
23:55	SegFaultAX	Particularly in Ruby land.
23:55	SegFaultAX	Err Rails
23:56	cemerick	Not sure that counts for much.
23:56	SegFaultAX	cemerick: It's just a matter of perspective. I see yaml is being fairly common. In other spaces, other formats are more common.
23:57	llasram	TimMc: You had moose hides! Lucky you. In my day moose hadn't evolved yet and we needed to use mammoth hides, which of course you needed to shave first
23:57	xeqi	cemerick: I don't think I've ever touched an ini. they can't be "plain old"
23:57	SegFaultAX	Ansible uses INI.
23:58	SegFaultAX	For inventory files.
23:58	fkey	D: (cljs.reader/read-string ... ) is exactly what i needed lol