#clojure – 2013-08-19

2013-08-19

00:06	cjfrisz	What's the story for repeatable random number generation in ClojureScript, i.e. using a seed?
00:07	cjfrisz	I know about data.generators, but at first glance it doesn't seem like a drop-in solution for cljs
00:08	cjfrisz	(and by "know about," I mean that I googled it a few minutes ago, which itself was a few minutes after I first decided I would like repeatable randomness in my cljs program)
00:09	bbloom	cjfrisz: clojure.core (and cljs.core) don't have seedable random number generators :-( you need to use platform interop
00:10	bbloom	so javascript interop or whatever you can find in goog
00:10	clojurebot	Excuse me?
00:10	bbloom	amalloy: brehaut: i just stuck with clojure.test b/c it's such a small difference it's not worth bothering for only a handful of tests
00:25	callen	shouldn't there be a macro for this? https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/GHLL_OgIN9E
00:27	cjfrisz	bbloom: that was the answer I found googling, but all the answers were 8+ months old
00:27	cjfrisz	I'm just naive enough to have hoped I would find the state of things improved in that time ;-)
00:27	bbloom	cjfrisz: as somebody who has written deterministic games before, i just assume all language's have a shitty stdlib for randomness :-)
00:30	cjfrisz	bbloom: Careful, that kind of "you want it done right, you write it yourself" attitude will turn us into Scheme in no time flat
00:30	cjfrisz	I can count the number of external libraries I've used in Scheme on my hands; maybe even just one of them
00:31	bbloom	heh
00:31	bbloom	i'm not saying that there can't be a lib, i'm saying that rand-int doesn't really do the trick :-)
00:34	callen	hrm. does anybody here know Ritz?
00:37	cjfrisz	bbloom: thanks for the help. I'm off for now
02:19	`cbp`	callen: hi, I didnt do more work on it today after this morning but i'll keep working over the week hopefully have a first version by next weekend huh :-) https://github.com/cesarbp/pomegranate/blob/sync/src/main/clojure/sync/sync.clj
02:23	callen	`cbp: fun. I'm excited. :)
02:46	muhoo	ugh, how again does one cast a string to a java Reader?
02:46	muhoo	(i got a thing that wants a Reader, all i gots is a string)
02:48	TEttinger	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.java.io/reader
02:48	TEttinger	it can resolve a string that's a filename or URI
02:49	muhoo	well no, i have a string with content, it's not a file.
02:49	TEttinger	I think there's a java stringreader thing
02:49	muhoo	i.e. i have "foo\nbar\nbaz", i am passing that to a java method that requires a Reader, doesn't take a String
02:49	TEttinger	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/io/StringReader.html
02:50	muhoo	i'll look around in java then. was kind of hoping someone had already wrapped in something clojure
02:50	sevvie	muhoo: it'lll take a string. It will try to see if it's a file or URI first, but failing that it'll just coerce the string.
02:51	TEttinger	sevvie, that should be in the docs, it doesn't say there's an else case
02:51	TEttinger	thanks
02:55	sevvie	You know, I'm mistaken. I coulda sworn it coerced bare strings, but it'll throw a FileNotFoundException. Sorry.
02:56	muhoo	simple enough, thanks. java.io.StringReader works
02:59	dbe	How do I create this vector? [(0 0) (0 1) (0 2) ... (0 n) (1 0) (1 1) ... (n n)]?
02:59	fredyr	dbe: for comprehension should do it
03:01	noprompt	dbe: (for [x (range n) y (range m)] [x y])
03:01	dbe	fredyr, noprompt , Ah, yes, thank you.
03:02	noprompt	for some reason this grindcore i'm listening to is drawing me to use the -> macro.
03:02	noprompt	the skewer first macor.
03:03	fredyr	:)
03:03	noprompt	that's what i'm calling it from now on. skewer first.
03:04	sevvie	noprompt: so ->> is "skewer last"?
03:04	noprompt	haha. no. that's the impale macro.
03:05	sevvie	Skewer and impale. I like it.
03:05	noprompt	:)
03:09	noprompt	(def decapitate rest)
03:15	noprompt	what would be a good way to "diff" two maps?
03:17	ryankask	why wouldn't lein install put the created jar and other artifacts in ~/.m2/repository?
03:18	fredyr	noprompt: otoh, pluck keys into a set and use diff?
03:19	noprompt	fredyr: yeah maybe something like that.
03:19	fredyr	noprompt: oh you can use diff on maps directly it seems
03:19	fredyr	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.data/diff
03:20	noprompt	fredyr: well, i'll be. lemme check that out.
03:26	noprompt	that's pretty neat. i'll have to remember that. not exactly what i was thinking about, but still neat.
03:45	muhoo	(vlad->>
03:49	noprompt	muhoo: :)
03:55	noprompt	that feeling when you're no longer sure if your "new and improved" solution is better.
03:56	xsyn	so just "new"
03:57	noprompt	xsyn: haha, yeah.
03:58	noprompt	it's actually definitely better. i'm unsure if i've arrived at the simplest solution.
03:58	noprompt	the problem is i have no idea what the hell i'm doing. which is normally the case.
04:01	noprompt	some of the code i wrote last night probably should have had some comments.
04:04	sevvie	That feeling when you look at code you should have commented.
04:10	cmdrdats	That feeling when you have no idea how this bug is happening, until you realize you're looking at the wrong code.
04:28	kristian-	so, what is the preferred validation lib in Clojure?
04:32	noprompt	kristian-: a map with keys to validate and function values. :)
04:32	noprompt	j/k
04:33	noprompt	kristian-: which ones are you looking at?
04:34	kristian-	bouncer, metis, validateur
04:42	muhoo	valip
04:44	noprompt	kristian-: hmm. i dunno. at first blush they all seem like the could do the job well. i guess it depends on what you're looking for.
04:44	noprompt	kristian-: maybe try them out independently. :/
04:45	ro_st	kristian-: depends what you want to validate, as well
04:48	noprompt	juxt is a damn handy function.
04:49	Raynes	noprompt: As friends with a man who is confirmed as nuts for juxt, I can confirm this.
04:51	noprompt	Raynes: nuts for juxt.
04:51	Raynes	noprompt: I famously said this at my Clojure Conj talk. Apparently it was the greatest thing ever said in a southern accent in the history of mankind.
04:53	noprompt	Raynes: seriously. it's like apple: always finding new ways to "delight" me.
04:54	noprompt	Raynes: last week i found it useful for simplifying the rendering of this query dsl i've been working on.
04:55	noprompt	today i found it super helpful in conjunction with group-by.
04:55	noprompt	juxt is an all around good guy.
04:55	noprompt	i'm "nuts for juxt"
04:55	Raynes	Buy him a beer next time he's in town.
04:55	noprompt	i'll buy him some nuts to enjoy with his beer.
04:55	noprompt	beer nuts.
04:55	noprompt	beer nuts for juxt.
04:56	Raynes	You've taken it too far.
04:56	noprompt	i know. i've been hacking on frak all day.
04:56	Raynes	Oh yeah? Well I'm writing unit tests for Elixir.
04:57	noprompt	Raynes: yeah? i noticed you were apart of the "crew".
04:57	ucb	Raynes: elixir? neat!
04:58	Raynes	noprompt: José and I are like this.
04:58	Raynes	Unfortunately I can't make gestures over the internet.
05:00	noprompt	Raynes: frak now delights even more (frak/pattern ["bone" "bones" "boner"]) => #"bone[sr]?"
05:01	Raynes	What is frak?
05:01	Raynes	Oh.
05:01	Raynes	It generates regex?
05:01	noprompt	This is a neat addition (frak/pattern ["skill" "skull"]) => #"sk[iu]ll"
05:01	ucb	noprompt: have you considered generating xpath/css selectors with frak?
05:02	noprompt	ucb: no but that's an interesting idea. can you elaborate?
05:02	noprompt	ucb: i just spent all day working on a new trie structure and renderer.
05:02	ucb	noprompt: well, have you ever toyed with open.dapper.net?
05:02	noprompt	ucb: negative. please make my life easier.
05:02	ucb	noprompt: the use case is simple: point and click at things on webpages and build an automatic extractor that you can run periodically
05:03	ucb	noprompt: well, just that, automated content extraction from the web or whatever
05:03	ucb	noprompt: it's an active area of research too :)
05:03	ucb	noprompt: many years ago dapper was a great stepping stone in one of my projects, and I wish I could've replaced it with a lib and not a service
05:03	ucb	noprompt: consider writing a price comparison search engine, and how you'd extract prices and item details from amazon, say
05:04	ucb	(without partnering with them, etc.)
05:05	supersym	say guys, I want to use a profile I defined in ~/.lein with a project.. documentation is vague, mostly showing how to run higher order tasks with other profiles
05:05	noprompt	ucb: sounds pretty neat. working on frak has made me far more interested in the text space.
05:05	ucb	noprompt: it's a really interesting space to work in :)
05:06	supersym	so I tried adding :profiles {:overkill {}} and :profiles {:default [:base :system :user :provided :dev :overkill]}
05:06	noprompt	ucb: someone sent me a link last week to something called a finite state reducer. seemed really interesting but i couldn't read the paper. :(
05:06	ucb	in any case, frak looks /really/ nice and I'm actively looking for an excuse to use it beyond the "let's try this new cool thing"
05:06	ucb	noprompt: oh :/
05:06	noprompt	ucb: well that's the thing that surprised me about the interest it recieved.
05:07	noprompt	ucb: like, i honestly can't think of many places where it'd be somethind i'd even reach for.
05:07	ucb	noprompt: nobody likes writing regexps
05:07	noprompt	ucb: yeah, but it's not like frak will help much with that. you have to know the inputs for frak to be useful.
05:08	ucb	well, you can have other people providing the inputs
05:08	noprompt	ucb: plus you won't get a huge benefit from it unless you're working with huge patterns.
05:08	ucb	i.e. build a service to extract things from things :)
05:08	noprompt	ucb: now that is a good point.
05:08	ucb	and html seems to be the data format from which people really want to extract things
05:08	noprompt	ucb: i guess it could also be useful for something like a keyword regex.
05:08	ucb	hence my suggestion to generate xpath/css selectors
05:09	ucb	well, you could use frak to add fuzzy matching to a search engine
05:09	noprompt	i never understood what was so offputting about regex to programmers.
05:09	noprompt	regex is so cool.
05:09	ucb	not just fuzzy matching mind you
05:09	ucb	they're cumbersome
05:10	ucb	and the language itself is, well, cryptic at best
05:10	ucb	"perl"
05:11	noprompt	i guess i can see that.
05:12	ro_st	regex makes programming much easier, that's for sure. i mean working with code text
05:12	ucb	indeed, but crafting regexes is an acquired skill
05:12	noprompt	but you can definitely shoot yourself in the foot with them.
05:13	ucb	which many people don't care to invest in
05:13	ro_st	it's one of the things that makes sublimetext so good. the search fast-feedback + regex
05:13	ucb	you mean emacs, right? </troll>
05:13	supersym	the last thing I mastered before starting clojure was regex... extremely useful skill to add to my set :)
05:13	ro_st	i reckon you're golden once you get to understanding negative lookaheads
05:13	hyPiRion	yeah, I was about to point out that emacs got that as well.
05:13	supersym	ro_st: the documentation on it is rather poor though
05:13	noprompt	ro_st: yeah s/sublim$e$text/\1macs/
05:14	supersym	once you figure out its perl/boost...
05:14	ro_st	ucb: probably. i haven't yet spent the requisite time configuring emacs. the last time i did some emacs config, i woke up in a pool of my own drool with a 3 day beard
05:15	ucb	ro_st: you were to close to enlightenment! :)
05:15	ro_st	emacs uses a different regex dialect than what i'm used to, as well
05:15	noprompt	i try to avoid most of the look around stuff if at all possible. the performance can be really nasty.
05:15	ro_st	i'm used to the one JS/C#/Java uses
05:15	noprompt	but sometimes it's just what you need.
05:15	ro_st	not sure what emacs uses, but it doesn't know all the things i'm used to
05:16	ro_st	noprompt: yup :-)
05:16	ucb	heh
05:16	ro_st	i use regex mostly for code editing, not really in actual production runtime execution
05:16	ro_st	so perf isn't an issue
05:17	noprompt	fun fact: j.regex.Pattern char sets (ie [abc]) are backed by bit fields which perform much better than (a\|b\|c).
05:17	ro_st	that's handy!
05:18	ro_st	the nice thing about regex in a text editor is how easily you can blow a non-developer's mind with it
05:18	supersym	client-side form validation... just that would be JS, would this (frak) be useful or
05:18	noprompt	ro_st: yeah, huh? the guy that maintains vim-clojure-static showed me all kinds of neat tricks and new things about j.regex.Pattern.
05:18	supersym	ro_st: subl2 multiline select is also really sweet to show people ;)
05:19	ro_st	we've been teaching a couple writers to use html/css and i showed them a couple basics of regex to make their lives easier. amazing how quickly you become accustomed to how cool this stuff is
05:19	noprompt	emacs + evil-mode ftw
05:20	Anderkent	noprompt: I was thinking of switching to that (from vim), how hard is it? Or were you evil from the start :P
05:20	noprompt	got erc in one split + nrepl and clojure code in some others.
05:20	Anderkent	elisp is just so much nicer than vimscript
05:20	noprompt	Anderkent: it took me a second because i also had to learn how to use some parts of the editor, but it kicks ass once you get used to it.
05:21	ucb	Anderkent: you actually like elisp? :)
05:21	noprompt	Anderkent: evil-mode is pretty faithful to the vim style.
05:21	noprompt	Anderkent: it's definitely nicer than viml. :P
05:21	noprompt	Anderkent: you can get a lot of mileage out of evil-mode if you pair it with something like key-chord-mode
05:22	Anderkent	ucb: it's more that I hate vimscript
05:22	Anderkent	:P
05:22	ucb	heh
05:22	ucb	fair enough
05:22	noprompt	Anderkent: i still use vim if i'm shelled in to a server or something.
05:23	Anderkent	ok, I'll put another +1 on my 'people who told me to use emacs' list
05:23	noprompt	Anderkent: if you're a vim user and you're curious, i'd say it's worth the time investment.
05:24	noprompt	it took me about a month or so to get it set up to a point where i was pretty happy.
05:25	Anderkent	cool, thanks
05:27	noprompt	ucb: the thing about regex i think that scares people is the terseness of the syntax. some people get freaked out when they see a cluster of crazy line noise.
05:27	ro_st	Anderkent: https://gist.github.com/robert-stuttaford/6255383
05:27	ucb	noprompt: I have to agree there. But there's no way around that either I'd say.
05:28	ucb	noprompt: well, other than "learn the regexp language"
05:28	noprompt	ucb: it's funny cause the same people are not intimidated by 120+ character lines of code.
05:29	ucb	heh
05:29	ucb	interestingly enough, the people least intimidated by regexes (in my experience) is perl programmers
05:29	noprompt	i get a little "uneasy" when i see a huge line of ruby or python.
05:30	ro_st	ucb: isn't perl regexes with variables?
05:30	ucb	ro_st: hehehe
05:30	noprompt	nice!
05:30	ucb	noprompt: I get uneasy with Ruby, full stop. Python I've learnt to tolerate it.
05:30	noprompt	ucb: some guy on HN went up to bat for me regarding frak. apparently the perl community have been using similar techniques to optimize their expressions.
05:31	ucb	noprompt: well, the perl community, I'd say, relies heavily on regexes, right?
05:32	ucb	noprompt: it's no surprise they'd have a huge arsenal of techniques to deal with these
05:32	noprompt	to my knowledge this is what i've heard.
05:32	Anderkent	ro_st: thanks. Starred, will come back to it when I try to switch - probably somewhere in Sep :P
05:33	noprompt	maybe i'm a perl programmer. roflmao lol jk.
05:33	ro_st	Anderkent: +1. print and use a pen to scratch them out as you internalise them: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PareditCheatsheet
05:34	Anderkent	oh, I use paredit in vim already - though of course the bindings I'd have to learn again
05:34	noprompt	Anderkent: you could steal my bindings which i ripped off from the vim ones.
05:35	noprompt	Anderkent: https://github.com/noprompt/matilde/blob/master/emacs.d/init.el#L155-L169
05:35	Anderkent	hm I see that vim ones are slightly different - the same binding is used to move both opening and closing brace in a given direction, depending on what your cursor is on
05:45	ryankask	Does anyone know why "lein install" would only create the jar and write the pom.xml but not put it in ~/.m2/repository?
05:47	Anderkent	ryankask: I guess if aether fails to install... File permissions, maybe? But I think it unlikely - are you sure it's not there? :P
05:47	Anderkent	or maybe if the pom is invalid
05:47	Anderkent	did you get any error output?
05:48	Anderkent	ryankask: ah, also you might have :local-repo set, in which case that's where the jar will be put
05:49	ryankask	Anderkent: It's quite strange. I am working with java.jdbc and last night on my laptop lein install worked. today at work it isn't
05:50	ryankask	git clone ...repo...; lein install . i don't see :local-repo anywhere
05:51	Anderkent	Don't think the . after install is necessary :P
05:51	Anderkent	but other than that, sorry, no idea
05:55	ryankask	(meant as a period). anyway, it's there now. not sure what happened but thanks for your help.
06:45	tgoossens	I was kinda using the idea of functions but then in java (actually xtend). I have a class with a lot of static final vars (my functions). Then the class that uses these functions gets all of them via its constructor. But its getting a bit unmanageable. So I guess I should just make them instance methods of the class...
06:45	tgoossens	(note: the class that uses the functions is different from the class that contains them)
06:49	Anderkent	tgoossens: if they're static final your other class can just access them statically, they don't have to be passed to its constructor. Or am I misunderstanding something?
06:56	tgoossens	anderkent: yes ofc. But then the class is coupled with a certain implementation. I want to be able pass on "test functions"
06:56	Anderkent	right. sounds kind of like a protocol?
06:57	Anderkent	though that would require making the methods nonstatic, as you said.
06:59	tgoossens	maybe the problem is the fact I just want to pass every function to that one class
06:59	tgoossens	instead of smaller components
07:00	tgoossens	so that the function dependencies of the smaller components become manageable
07:01	Anderkent	that's one solution. The other is to have a simple wrapper around that java class that can be mocked for tests.
07:01	Anderkent	sorry, kinda grasping at straws here because I don't have a clear picture of what you're trying to do :P
07:20	noncom\|2	how do i concat two strings?
07:21	hyPiRion	str
07:21	hyPiRion	,(str "foo" "bar")
07:21	clojurebot	"foobar"
07:21	hyPiRion	or eventually
07:21	noncom\|2	omg
07:21	hyPiRion	,(.concat "foo" "bar")
07:21	clojurebot	"foobar"
07:21	noncom\|2	how could i ask that
07:21	noncom\|2	:)
07:23	hyPiRion	we all ask stupid questions now and then
07:52	nkozo	there is function to switch to another ns but raise an exception if it doesn't exists?
07:54	Anderkent	nkozo: I don't think so. You can just (when-not (find-ns 'my-ns) (throw ...)), I guess.
07:56	nkozo	Anderkent: ok, thanks
07:56	noncom\|2	how could that be that i have a reference to JDK everywhere in my path, however, lein says it cannot compile java sources because i apparently have only jre and "java --version" shows jre too?
07:58	Anderkent	noncom\|2: what does `which java` give you? Perhaps you have both jre and jdk in path, and jre takes precedence?
07:59	noncom\|2	maybe 'which' is something linux, idk, im on windows.. however, i have checked all the path settings, and jre is even not mentioned anywhere..
07:59	noncom\|2	maybe it is because i have 32 and 64-bit versions installed...
08:00	Anderkent	ah, sorry. I kinda assume linux unless told differently :P
08:01	noncom\|2	:)
08:01	Anderkent	it sounds like you might have a jre and jdk installed and it's using the jre java. Try moving the jdk path entry to beginning / end and see if that helps?
08:02	noncom\|2	alright.. but what strikes me the most is that in none of my PATH settings is any reference to jre..
08:02	noncom\|2	i try what you say and in the worst case, just reinstall java
08:02	Anderkent	noncom\|2: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/774 sounds a bit like your issue?
08:02	Anderkent	I believe jres java goes to c:\windows\system32
08:03	Anderkent	which is why it's there even without special path entries
08:03	Anderkent	(well at least that ticket claims it does. I'm not a winwizz)
08:03	noncom\|2	oh that is so very possible
08:03	noncom\|2	i gonna check it out
08:06	noncom\|2	Anderkent: there were java exes in system32, and i renamed them but that did not solve the issue
08:07	noncom\|2	now i see in Java Control Panel there is the explicit preference of that particular jre set up
08:07	noncom\|2	gonna try changing it now
08:07	Anderkent	noncom\|2: apparently windows version of which is where
08:07	Anderkent	i.e. where java
08:09	noncom\|2	control panel is liek OS control center .. but java goes there tooo. .strangely that that thing is used as the global setting and not the PATH one. looks like this is totally how java works on windows. this is not for windows itself..
08:10	noncom\|2	oh that java control panel is so crappy
08:11	Anderkent	noncom\|2: I think you can tell lein which java to use with an env variable. JAVA_CMD I think... So try just JAVA_CMD=C:\\ProgramFiles\blabhab\jdk7\java lein javac
08:11	Anderkent	uh or however you specify environment vars in cmd :P
08:11	noncom\|2	hehe
08:11	noncom\|2	gonna try
08:21	wei_	what do people use for clojurescript data binding these days? fluentsoftware/cljs-binding? any other alternatives?
08:29	noncom\|2	Anderkent: finally i specified JAVA_CMD in the PATH settings and it seems to work
08:34	Anderkent	noncom\|2: cool. I'm afraid windows is very much a second class citizen in the oss world :P
08:35	Anderkent	Is sqlkorma dead? 57 issues 16 pull requests ;S
08:35	noncom\|2	yeah, probably.. sometimes it sucks.. but generally it is not so bad.. at least in java, where i like the feeling of being solated from OS particularities
08:35	noncom\|2	Anderkent: the craetor of korma abandoned it
08:35	noncom\|2	he said that if someone needs it, feel free to give it a second chance
08:35	Anderkent	yeah, but it moved to its own org (korma/korma instead of ibdknox/korma now)... so I was wondering if anyone's picked it up
08:36	noncom\|2	oh that twist of the story im unaware of
08:38	noncom\|2	i'm trying to test my plugin for lein, when i run it, it says "Warning: profile :my-plugin not found." Where do i specify it and how? an't find the doc on leins site..
08:43	Anderkent	noncom\|2: hm, what does your plugin do? It seems like it's trying to merge a profile that isn't declared into the project decl
08:46	noncom\|2	yes, i am excercing in writingplugins and i want a profile for my plugin. the only thing that idk is how to declare it in project decl? looks like i found it - it's :profiles map in the project.clj?
08:46	Anderkent	yes
08:47	noncom\|2	missed it when looked at sample-project.clj before
09:19	H4ns	how does leiningen know what files to load? do i need to specify the files in the project.clj, or is there some magic involved?
09:21	H4ns	ah, so i need to depend on whatever package and they will be found by file name. thanks! :)
09:56	noncom\|2	in leiningen there is are project parameters like :resource-paths that take [] of strings representing filesystem locations. what is interesting for me - it can be written like "lib\*" for a file location, performing the wildcard match. how do i utilize the same kind of search for my lein plugin? in other words i have to find all files in such a directory
09:58	Anderkent	noncom\|2: you can use bultitude to find files on classpath that match a particular expression
09:59	Anderkent	for raw filesystem interactions there's probably some other lib
10:01	noncom\|2	i see... sure i could make a plain javaish routine but i thought if there is something already available.. so i'll try bultitude first. atleast, lein uses it, so it must be somewhere near the requirement
10:34	noncom\|2	has anyone seen weavejester recently?
10:37	vijaykiran	$seen weavejester
10:37	lazybot	weavejester was last seen quitting 11 hours and 14 minutes ago.
10:39	jtoy	why is this true?
10:39	jtoy	(contains? [1 2 13 1231 231 ] 4)
10:39	jtoy	&(contains? [1 2 13 1231 231 ] 4)
10:39	lazybot	⇒ true
10:39	hyPiRion	(doc contains?)
10:39	clojurebot	"([coll key]); Returns true if key is present in the given collection, otherwise returns false. Note that for numerically indexed collections like vectors and Java arrays, this tests if the numeric key is within the range of indexes. 'contains?' operates constant or logarithmic time; it will not perform a linear search for a value. See also 'some'."
10:40	hyPiRion	it's poorly worded, we know
10:40	jtoy	that seems like a terrible use too
10:41	jtoy	the key is in the range if key <= length - 1
10:42	hyPiRion	yeah, if (<= 0 i (- (count coll) 1))
10:42	hyPiRion	well actually
10:42	hyPiRion	,(contains? [1 2 3 4 5] 3.4)
10:42	clojurebot	false
10:42	hyPiRion	so not exactly, but almost.
10:42	jtoy	&(contains? [1 2 3 4 5 3.4] 3.4)
10:42	lazybot	⇒ false
10:43	jtoy	.....
10:43	hyPiRion	3.4 is not a key (index) in the vector, and can't be.
10:43	noncom\|2	,(contains? [1 2 3] -1)
10:43	clojurebot	false
10:43	jtoy	contains is a horrible name
10:43	hyPiRion	,(get [1 2 3 4 5 3.4] 3.4 :not-found)
10:43	clojurebot	:not-found
10:43	noncom\|2	vijaykiran: thanks!
10:43	hyPiRion	yeah, it should've been called contains-key?
10:44	hyPiRion	but too late for that now.
10:44	jtoy	one motto i do love about ruby is "principle of least surprise"
10:44	jtoy	clojure mostly fits it also
10:45	AimHere	Well Ruby did end up in the 'Wat' talk so it doesn't ALWAYS hit the least surprise thing
10:45	stuartsierra	"Principle of least surprise": https://twitter.com/fogus/status/358261588236578816
10:45	hyPiRion	AimHere: well, I can get Clojure into a wat talk as well
10:45	iwo	hey, does anyone know why i would get a ClassNotFoundException from clojure.lang.Compiler when trying to use the fully qualified name of a function?
10:46	AimHere	hyPiRion, no doubt.
10:46	iwo	i'm trying to refer to function like: clj-http.client/parse-url
10:46	iwo	but i get Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clj-http.client
10:47	iwo	even though the function 'parse-url' DOES exist in the namespace clj-http.client
10:47	jtoy	stuartsierra: nice, for me it means statitistically, as in go ask a 100 programmers what contains? does
10:47	llasram	iwo: Have `require`d the namespace anywhere? Once a namespace is loaded, you can refer to it by fully-qualified name even if a given namespace hasn't explicitly required it, but something needs to have loaded it first
10:47	dakrone	iwo: have you required clj-http.client
10:48	iwo	llasram, dakrone: actually, this was my first thought so i tried this:
10:48	iwo	(:require [clj-http.client])
10:48	stuartsierra	jtoy: Yes, see also http://stuartsierra.com/2013/02/04/affordance-concision
10:48	iwo	but require doesn't seem to like that namespace on its own
10:49	iwo	ah, i guess i should get rid of the vector
10:49	llasram	iwo: Are you adding that to an `ns` form, or just e.g. entering it directly into a REPL?
10:49	iwo	(of course (:require [clj-http.client]) is inside my ns macro)
10:50	llasram	ah, ok
10:50	llasram	That should work, actually. In a vector/list is correct
10:51	iwo	llasram: sorry, i guess i'm wasting your time, i think i might have got nrepl into a bad state
10:51	iwo	looks like it's working
10:51	iwo	thanks anyway!!
10:51	llasram	glad you got it working :-)
11:26	yogthos	does anybody know why the exception is not caught here? (try (for [i [[]]] (nth i 1)) (catch Exception ex)) ?
11:26	yogthos	this works as expected (for [i [[]]] (try (nth i 1) (catch Exception ex)))
11:26	llasram	yogthos: Laziness
11:26	yogthos	ahhh
11:26	Anderkent	gah, I got excited for midje junit output and it turns out it doesn't work that well :((
11:26	yogthos	obviously :)
11:27	llasram	yogthos: q: What causes this unexpected Clojure behavior involving lexical scope? a: Laziness. :-)
11:27	yogthos	llasram: yeah pretty much every time
11:29	yogthos	that's definitely easy to miss
11:29	upwardindex	Is there a library to do simple DSP that works well with incanter?
11:30	upwardindex	(digital signal processing)
11:30	justin_smith	upwardindex: you can build DSP out of matrix and linear algebra, so it is in there already, right? :P
11:31	justin_smith	more seriously: I hope!
11:31	xicubed	lein ring to bring them all and in their darkness bind them?
11:31	arrdem	(inc xicubed)
11:31	lazybot	⇒ 1
11:33	upwardindex	justin_smith: I've been looking a bit and there does not seem to be anything
11:34	ker2x	friendly greetings !
11:34	justin_smith	upwardindex: that is too bad - one day someone should throw it together, because really if you have matrix ops and linear algebra, DSP should be easy enough to build up from that
11:34	Anderkent	upwardindex: perhaps look into how overtone does stuff?
11:34	Anderkent	they must be doing some dsp
11:35	justin_smith	Anderkent: overtone just calls supercollider
11:35	Anderkent	ah.
11:37	ker2x	i have trouble using lein with clojurescript and nodejs. anyone willing to help ? i'm not sure what wrong, the compilation is ok but i have an error executing the js code
11:38	dnolen	ker2x: what's the error you are seeing?
11:38	ker2x	i'll pastebin it
11:38	ker2x	http://pastebin.com/nCmZbqKX
11:39	ker2x	the code is a simple hello world
11:40	ker2x	http://pastebin.com/dr4U5pwA the project definition
11:41	dnolen	ker2x: what's your source file look like
11:42	ker2x	http://pastebin.com/GKQJfRbh
11:45	ker2x	can you see something wrong ?
11:49	dnolen	ker2x: I don't see that you've specified an output file anywhere
11:49	ker2x	yes, i've read that there is default output to target
11:50	ker2x	and indeed, it created a target directory with a js file
11:50	ker2x	ls target/
11:50	ker2x	cljsbuild-compiler-0 cljsbuild-main.js
11:51	ker2x	i can create one if it can help
11:54	ker2x	i'm going to try what sevvie said on #clojurescript sevvie ker2x: When I was running into that error, I cleaned out my ~/.m2 and added [org.clojure/clojurescript "0.0-1853"] to my project dependencies; that seemed to handle it.
12:01	Anderkent	Is there a better way of having midje work lein test than wrapping everything in deftest?
12:02	babu`	I am using clj-http.client.I don't know if it supports proxy authorization. Doc mentions :proxy-host and :proxy-port. Does any know if this is supported or if there is any other library that does?
12:02	dakrone	babu`: clj-http doesn't support proxy auth, I don't know of any that do
12:02	dakrone	babu`: please feel free to add an issue to clj-http asking for it to be added though
12:03	noncom\|2	dnolen: i'm currently reading through the posts on ui made with core.async that you have presented yesterday.. very enlightning.. however, a question pops up in my head: what auditory you target in these posts?
12:03	dnolen	noncom\|2: auditory?
12:04	`cbp	audience i'm guessing :)
12:04	ker2x	same problem :(
12:04	ker2x	mm no wait
12:04	ker2x	different error
12:04	noncom\|2	dnolen: yes, who are the readers? i assume the following variants are possible: 1) full-blown clojurians 2) lispers who go javascript side for some reason 3) pure javascripters who never seen anything but javascript ?
12:05	noncom\|2	sorry, english is not my native language, so possible are miswordings
12:05	ker2x	http://pastebin.com/KmW2za34
12:06	Kototama	hi, why is this expression (= 'true true) true?
12:06	babu`	dakrone, ok, I will file a ticket.
12:06	gfredericks	Kototama: because ##(type 'true)
12:06	lazybot	⇒ java.lang.Boolean
12:06	dnolen	noncom\|2: that post is really targeted at anyone - I've done UIs in a lot of different programming languages - so I tried to write that post for a general audience who has done some UI programming before
12:06	gfredericks	Kototama: there is no syntax for ##(symbol "true")
12:06	lazybot	⇒ true
12:06	TimMc	Kototama: Because 'true doesn't produce a symbol, in Clojure.
12:06	TimMc	Kototama: Same with false and nil.
12:07	dnolen	noncom\|2: but of course I also wrote it to document a bunch of non-obvious core.async techniques I encountered along the way, hopefully people will come with even better ones
12:07	ker2x	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-101 i try that
12:07	Kototama	ah ok, thank you :)
12:07	TimMc	It bugs me, and I wish Rich had done (def true #t) like in PLT Scheme, but oh well.
12:08	arrdem	man that's weird...
12:08	dnolen	ker2x: specify an output file
12:09	TimMc	That would be a good question for a set of dark-corners koans: "For what values of x is (= (symbol x) x) true?"
12:10	Anderkent	TimMc: rather obviously for any symbol
12:10	Anderkent	I don't think anyone would look farther than that :P
12:10	TimMc	,(symbol 'foo) ;; wait really?
12:10	clojurebot	foo
12:11	TimMc	:-(
12:11	Anderkent	Perhaps if symbols were excluded from x: "For what values of x is (and (not (symbol? x)) (= (symbol x) x)) true?"
12:11	Anderkent	that's more koan like :)
12:11	Anderkent	(also ugly)
12:13	noncom\|2	dnolen: i see, as someone who is relatively new to lisps and clojure, i find the code samples a little difficult to follow. for example - the autocompleter's code here https://tinyurl.com/mfe2946, line 41.. i read like..
12:13	TimMc	&(map (juxt (comp name str) (comp str name)) ["foo" 'foo :foo])
12:13	lazybot	⇒ (["foo" "foo"] ["foo" "foo"] [":foo" "foo"])
12:13	dnolen	Kototama: TimMc: Clojure's behavior as far as 'true doesn't seem like a departure from Scheme, some quoted forms self-evaluate
12:13	dnolen	in Scheme (eq? '#t #t) -> #t
12:14	dnolen	(eq? ''#t #t) -> #f
12:14	dnolen	probably true for Common Lisp as well
12:14	TimMc	dnolen: In that case, quoting the truth value does nothing, but quoting the truth symbol is different from that.
12:14	TimMc	#t is a reader macro producing the true bool, not 'true
12:15	noncom\|2	"(r/map second)... so there was second? what was the first? nvm, we care for second from the vector.. yes, with (r/filter vector?) we selected vectors from something that holds vectors-and-non-vectors which we got from (resp/selector (resp/highlighter select menu ctrl) menu data) and what was that..?" then i foloow back and back.. and i lose notion of core.async, drawing in code
12:15	TimMc	This may be unique to PLT Scheme (Racket).
12:15	dnolen	TimMc: yeah I wouldn't use Racket as reference for Scheme, I use Petite for that
12:16	noncom\|2	i mean, i find it hard to follow learning core.async concepts and how they are intertwined with clojure syntax, like positional args or mapping over a collection of arbitrary type that came from some channels, that i do not fullyu grasp yet..
12:16	ker2x	dnolen: remplacing the :whitespace optimisation with :simple optimisation worked as said on http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-101
12:16	ker2x	thank you for your help
12:16	dnolen	ker2x: glad to hear it
12:17	babu`	dakrone, I have filed issue for proxy auth: https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http/issues/153
12:17	noncom\|2	i myself can handle that, but i also would like to make use of the articles to show some not very lisp-inclined people
12:17	noncom\|2	to win javascripters for clojurescript
12:17	ker2x	i'll specifiy an output anyway, whould i just specify a directory or an direcoty/output-file ?
12:17	dakrone	babu`: thanks!
12:18	noncom\|2	that is why i asked about the audience
12:19	ker2x	:output-to "war/javascripts/main.js"
12:19	ker2x	; default: target/cljsbuild-main.js
12:19	noncom\|2	if i am to show the article to my javascript friends, i will have to first edit it. because maybe they cannot see lisp benifits at once, but they can undertand the win of CSP that stands behind core.async. and that could win them to js->cljs
12:20	dnolen	noncom\|2: yeah I wish the post were less Lisp-y, but I'm really not sure what can be done about that.
12:20	dnolen	noncom\|2: this is why I compared to actual JS which is no easier to understand :D
12:21	dnolen	noncom\|2: there's definitely going to be room for expanded chapters on ClojureScript/core.async in the Clojure books
12:22	noncom\|2	dnolen: ahahah :D true about js. i just thing that there are two tracks: lisp and csp. maybe it is possible to write hints on lisp-related part, leaving to manually follow only csp part, that could be nice sure. i see two ways: 1) presenting a very verbose variant of lisp code along with the neat code that you originally have 2) more comments...
12:23	ker2x	see you later. have fun :)
12:24	noncom\|2	just thoughts, maybe you find it of encouragement :) actually i would like to see more js->cljs choices and conversion of ppl
12:25	noncom\|2	and i wanted to thank you for the great articles. that makes a huge change for my coding experience. and personally i do not mind the lispy riddle stuff
12:26	babu`	dakrone, I see code ./clj_http/core.clj:12: (org.apache.http.auth UsernamePasswordCredentials AuthScope)
12:26	babu`	and code ./clj_http/core.clj:234: (UsernamePasswordCredentials. user pass)))
12:27	babu`	looks like you have implemented some of this.
12:27	dakrone	babu`: that's for basic auth for regular requests, unfortunately not hooked into proxy auth yet
12:27	babu`	dakrone, ok
12:30	dnolen	noncom\|2: thanks for the feedback, I'll likely be doing smaller more manageable posts in the future
12:30	dnolen	noncom\|2: the autocompleter was really an advanced example that "proves" CSP can be used to build very nice UI components
12:31	xeqi	dnolen: another thanks for writing the csp posts. I've been looking forward to the autocompleter one
12:33	noncom\|2	dnolen: xeqi: yeah, it is really great. i like it as it is, it is a whole piece, can't take anything away from it. actually, in terms of advancedness, it is not hard. to me, it much resembles actors, but from a parralel world..
12:33	noncom\|2	and practical it is, what's important
12:33	arrdem	hum... is there a parser combinator lib that can work with binary format grammars?
12:40	jtoy	is there a single function that does frequencies and then return the max value?
12:40	noncom\|2	arrdem: istaparse no?
12:40	noncom\|2	s/istaparse/instaparse
12:40	jtoy	(max (frequencies [ 1 2 2 44444 5 6 2 2]))
12:41	jtoy	&(max (frequencies [ 1 2 2 44444 5 6 2 2]))
12:41	lazybot	⇒ {1 1, 2 4, 44444 1, 5 1, 6 1}
12:41	noncom\|2	wow
12:42	arrdem	noncom\|2: instaparse is amazing but it's ascii grammars only
12:43	gfredericks	jtoy: ##(apply max (vals (frequencies [1 2 2 44444 5 6 2 2])))
12:43	lazybot	⇒ 4
12:43	bbloom	tbaldridge: i added reusable handlers & effect instances with handler stacks to https://github.com/brandonbloom/cleff -- i found something odd in the generated state machines that i wanted to ask you about:
12:44	Anderkent	jtoy: ##(first (sort-by (comp - second) (frequencies [1 2 2 44444 5 6 2 2])))
12:44	lazybot	⇒ [2 4]
12:44	jtoy	gfredericks: i explained it wrong, i mean it should return 2 because there are 4 instances
12:44	bbloom	tbaldridge: I've seen a few cases where there is (let [auto_1 auot_2] (my.return/fn-here x y))
12:44	tbaldridge	bbloom: yeah
12:44	bbloom	or rather: (let [[auto_1 auot_2]] (my.return/fn-here x y))
12:44	Anderkent	jtoy: ^. Just take the first part of the vec.
12:44	bbloom	tbaldridge: the destructuring occurs, but the results are totally ignored
12:44	bbloom	tbaldridge: is that expected?
12:45	bbloom	tbaldridge: also, i ran in to an issue with destructuring lets at the top level of a state machine:
12:45	bbloom	https://github.com/brandonbloom/cleff/blob/master/src/cleff/trampoline.clj#L74-L75
12:46	bbloom	adding that do fixes it
12:46	bbloom	seems related, some kinda issue in the code generation for the state transitions
12:46	tbaldridge	bbloom: yeah, it's a side effect of the transformation, the system doesn't always remove unneeded assignments.
12:46	tbaldridge	bbloom: yeah, something that's not totally clear is that state-machine requires a seq of sexprs, not a single sexpr
12:46	noncom\|2	arrdem: oh so you mean binary is like 1010100111?
12:47	bbloom	tbaldridge: ooo that makes more sense… so instead of do, i should write (list `(let …)) ?
12:47	arrdem	noncom\|2: yeah I'm working on an assembler toolkit and realized that I should probably be able to round trip data
12:47	tbaldridge	bbloom: yeah
12:47	bbloom	tbaldridge: k thanks, let me try that
12:47	llasram	jtoy: ##(->> [1 2 2 44444 5 6 2 2] frequencies (apply max-key second) first)
12:47	lazybot	⇒ 2
12:48	bbloom	tbaldridge: perfect. works. thanks
12:50	noncom\|2	wouldn't it be cool if along with #(% %2 %3) we could have like ##(%% %%1 #(% %2 %3)) ans o on?
12:50	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: % in this context
12:50	noncom\|2	lazybot?
12:50	clojurebot	lazybot is forget lazybot
12:50	noncom\|2	clojurebot?
12:50	clojurebot	clojurebot is a multimap
12:50	noncom\|2	multimap?
12:52	noncom\|2	like we could say ###(%%% ##(%% %%2 %%%2 #(% %2 %%%3)) ##(%% %%% %%%1) %%%4)?
12:52	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: % in this context
12:52	noncom\|2	stop it lazybot
12:52	Anderkent	noncom\|2: no. just write a function.
12:52	Anderkent	:P
12:52	noncom\|2	ahahah
12:52	noncom\|2	:D
12:52	llasram	noncom\|2: Well, your proposal might make it easier to write in swearjure
12:52	llasram	noncom\|2: I'm unconvinced as to other benefits :-)
12:53	noncom\|2	i could not hold laughter when it came to my mind so that was the benifit :D
12:53	jtoy	llasram: i like yours beter, thanks
12:54	Anderkent	:(
12:55	jtoy	Anderkent: I like yours too, thank you :) i just dont cant undertand it at a quiick glance
12:55	Anderkent	eh, it's pretty much the same thing except his is better
12:55	Anderkent	:P
12:55	arrdem	!seen nathell
12:56	llasram	I do think that standard lib could benefit from a `max-compare` (and `max-compare-by`). Current {max,min}{,-key} only work for numbers. Which I assume could allow them to be efficient, but is annoying sometimes
12:56	hyPiRion	$seen arrdem
12:56	lazybot	arrdem was last seen talking on #clojure 27 seconds and 952 milliseconds ago.
12:56	arrdem	cheers hyPiRion
12:56	arrdem	$seen nathell
12:56	lazybot	nathell was last seen quitting 5 days and 16 hours ago.
12:56	arrdem	dang
12:57	jtoy	what function will tell me the index of each item in a vector ( somefunc [:yes :no :yes:] ) => 0 1 2
12:58	llasram	jtoy: More than just e.g. (comp range count) ?
12:58	Anderkent	jtoy: I'd guess you want map-indexed, if you want both the index and value
12:58	Anderkent	otherwise it's just (comp range count) as llasram said
12:58	jtoy	llasram: ok, i didnt think of it like that
13:00	noncom\|2	$seen somebody
13:00	lazybot	I have never seen somebody.
13:01	noncom\|2	#seen clojurebot
13:01	noncom\|2	$seen clojurebot
13:01	lazybot	clojurebot was last seen talking on #clojure 31 weeks and 4 days ago.
13:01	noncom\|2	hmmm
13:01	noncom\|2	and who pretended to be clojurebot?
13:01	noncom\|2	$seen lazybot
13:01	lazybot	lazybot was last seen joining on elixir-lang 4 days and 7 hours ago.
13:03	TimMc	!
13:03	noncom\|2	wow, it kicked me!
13:03	bbloom	$seen anybody
13:03	lazybot	I have never seen anybody.
13:03	bbloom	heh.
13:03	noncom\|2	:D
13:03	noncom\|2	try yourself?
13:04	noncom\|2	seen bbloom i mean
13:04	technomancy	$seen a bot command so easy to abuse before
13:04	lazybot	a was last seen joining on clojure 58 weeks and 1 day ago.
13:04	arrdem	aw.....
13:04	technomancy	foiled!
13:04	TimMc	$seen ,(map,println,[1,2,3,4])
13:04	lazybot	I have never seen ,(map,println,[1,2,3,4]).
13:05	TimMc	Oh right.
13:05	Anderkent	$seen "a b"
13:05	lazybot	I have never seen "a.
13:05	Anderkent	oh well.
13:05	noncom\|2	hmmm
13:05	noncom\|2	somebody try to ask about yourself please
13:05	hyPiRion	TimMc: heh, interesting.
13:05	Anderkent	$seen a b
13:05	lazybot	a was last seen joining on clojure 58 weeks and 1 day ago.
13:05	Anderkent	geh
13:05	hyPiRion	$seen ,a
13:05	lazybot	I have never seen ,a.
13:06	noncom\|2	$seen -
13:06	lazybot	I have never seen -.
13:06	TimMc	$seen TimMc ;; OK, I'll try it.
13:06	lazybot	TimMc was last seen talking on #clojure 58 milliseconds ago.
13:06	noncom\|2	$seen noncom\|2
13:06	lazybot	noncom\|2 was last seen talking on #clojure 40 milliseconds ago.
13:06	noncom\|2	oh! last time it did not answer and connection was lost
13:08	Anderkent	ok last try
13:08	Anderkent	$seen a b
13:08	lazybot	I have never seen a b.
13:08	Anderkent	aha
13:09	noncom\|2	what?
13:09	Anderkent	$seen a command so easy to abuse.
13:09	lazybot	I have never seen a command so easy to abuse..
13:09	clojurebot	what is seq
13:09	noncom\|2	kick?
13:09	arrdem	woah what?
13:09	Anderkent	#unicode#mindblown
13:09	arrdem	technomancy: ^-3
13:09	arrdem	(inc Anderkent) ;; for abusing utf8
13:09	lazybot	⇒ 3
13:09	technomancy	arrdem: sweeeet
13:10	technomancy	non-breaking space?
13:10	noncom\|2	$seen êòî ãäå
13:10	lazybot	I have never seen ��.
13:10	Anderkent	awww it's so cute
13:10	arrdem	hum... are tabs breaking?
13:10	technomancy	protip: the reader treats non-breaking spaces as symbol constituents
13:10	arrdem	$seen tabs are osum
13:10	lazybot	I have never seen tabs are osum.
13:10	arrdem	lewl
13:10	technomancy	ah; I see
13:11	Anderkent	technomancy: yeah, I had clojure fail on me with very cryptic messages when i copy pasted code from github
13:11	Anderkent	the spaces on github were non-brekaing, of course, so clojure was choking on it... While printing what seemed to be perfectly valid code
13:11	Anderkent	had to dig out hexdump to see what's wrong with the file
13:11	noncom\|2	Anderkent: that's for java too. i remember having nice time with a library full of comments in japaneese...
13:11	Anderkent	^^
13:12	technomancy	Anderkent: mine was much sillier--I was working around broken escaping in a (I think) cygwin shell and trying to get a string that the shell would treat as a single token but clojure would treat as multiple forms
13:12	arrdem	,(doc condp)
13:12	clojurebot	"([pred expr & clauses]); Takes a binary predicate, an expression, and a set of clauses. Each clause can take the form of either: test-expr result-expr test-expr :>> result-fn Note :>> is an ordinary keyword. For each clause, (pred test-expr expr) is evaluated. If it returns logical true, the clause is a match. If a binary clause matches, the result-expr is returned, if a ternary clause matches, i...
13:13	muhoo	Raynes: wow, google scrapes refheap like instantaneously. i pasted something, googled the error like 30 seconds later, and second hit was the refheap paste i just made
13:13	Anderkent	muhoo: nah, google scrapes your history instantly :)
13:14	Anderkent	actually I don't know, but it would seem possible
13:14	technomancy	I'd link to the jira issue, but I forgot how terrible jira search is
13:14	Anderkent	419
13:14	Anderkent	there was a bot command to link to jira wasnt there
13:14	muhoo	Anderkent: huh, that doesn't make sense
13:15	Anderkent	muhoo: eh, was just kidding really. Though I wouldn't be surprised if chrome put results from your history on top of google searches :P
13:15	muhoo	how would google know what i, personally, pasted to refheap? unless they're tapping into the NSA's listening posts at transit points, and scraping stuff before it even hits the destination server
13:16	Anderkent	muhoo: what browser? I guess the joke falls flat if you're not on chrome
13:16	muhoo	also, fwiw, i was on firefox
13:16	Anderkent	oops
13:16	muhoo	but... i do have that "safe browsing" nonsense enabled, IIRC
13:17	muhoo	but that's silly. more likely is that if there's a rss feed on refheap, google is subscribing to it
13:17	muhoo	seems like it'd be a good idea for them to subscribe to feeds on paste sites, but who knows if they go that far
13:18	callen	technomancy: rumor has it progress is coming along on a pomegranate/sync! function. :)
13:19	technomancy	callen: thumbs up
13:31	callen	SegFaultAX: https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/wiki/User-Guide
13:48	callen	a depression portion of this Python code is just destructuring.
13:48	callen	depressing*
14:20	arrdem	,(format "0x%X" 2r1001)
14:21	clojurebot	"0x9"
14:27	dnolen	stuartsierra: can we do another CLJS release to address the tools.reader bump?
14:30	Raynes	muhoo: It thinks your tractor's sexy.
14:34	aaelony	those that use Incanter, does anyone know of a set of functions that convert a many column "wide" dataset to a many row "long" dataset like R's melt function in the reshape package? http://www.statmethods.net/management/reshape.html ?
14:37	mmarczyk	dnolen: ping
14:37	dnolen	mmarczyk: pong
14:40	mmarczyk	dnolen: hopefully I just messaged you off channel, though ERC is telling me something weird atm, so maybe not...
14:40	justin_smith	how do I prevent emacs nrepl from deleting the repl buffer when the remote disconnects?
14:40	dnolen	mmarczyk: hrm, did seem to work
14:40	mmarczyk	ok
14:52	callen	technomancy: http://blog.nullspace.io/adding-haskells-where-to-ocaml.html
14:53	technomancy	callen: IDGI
14:53	technomancy	it's supposed to be more readable?
14:54	bbloom	adding a suffix-ed where like that seems like a terrible plan in a strict language
14:57	callen	technomancy: it's a hacker school student, I just found the subject of modifying ocaml nifty.
14:58	callen	bbloom: what's problematic about it?
14:58	bbloom	callen: it reverses the order of evaluation (and hence side effects)
14:59	callen	I'm not sure you'd supposed to be using the 'where' where order matters.
15:00	bbloom	it's not just order, it's also conditional evaluation
15:00	bbloom	if you have let x = foo in let y = bar ...
15:00	bbloom	you expect those to execute in order
15:00	bbloom	if you have f z where z = foo and w = bar
15:00	bbloom	you wouldn't expect bar to execute, but it will
15:00	bbloom	what order should they go in? it's just not clear that there is any benefit & strictness means there is potential confusion
15:01	callen	I am facepalming so hard about people going ga-ga over tools.trace
15:01	callen	bbloom: I see your point, but I don't think the intent is to care that much.
15:02	hyPiRion	bbloom: huh? You expect them to evaluate in order because you've read how `where` works
15:03	hyPiRion	That's like saying "oh, let in Clojure is so confusing, I thought the bindings happened in parallel just like in CL"
15:03	callen	I'd tend to agree. and I got caught by that.
15:04	callen	(let vs. let*)
15:04	ToxicFrog	callen: tools.trace?
15:04	callen	ToxicFrog: yeah people on twitter are freaking out about something Lisp has had for decades. I don't really know why.
15:05	callen	I'm kind of embarrassed because I know a lot of Common Lispers and now they're going to see Clojure users freaking out about indoor plumbing.
15:05	noncom	callen: that's a common occasion in the world
15:05	bbloom	hyPiRion: i just think it's a bad idea to have two ways to represent exactly the same thing where one of them follows the order of execution & the other one… doesn't
15:05	callen	noncom: I know, but still :\|
15:05	bbloom	with laziness in haskell, it makes some sense
15:06	ystael	callen: would the typical CLer notice yet another proof of their obvious and manifest intrinsic superiority? or just yawn?
15:06	callen	ystael: I'm not really sure, I'll report when I have data.
15:07	ToxicFrog	callen: debugging is one of clojure's greatest weak points, IMO, and anything that helps with that is a good idea; tools.trace is noteworthy because it's another step towards debugging clj not completely sucking.
15:08	technomancy	tools.trace is just sugar over alter-var-root+println
15:08	technomancy	or prn maybe
15:08	ToxicFrog	Also, it looks extremely easy to use, which may be the case for CL's implementation but is not the case in pretty much any language I've used with a tracing capability.
15:08	ToxicFrog	technomancy: this is still a huge improvement over PRN! PRN EVERYWHERE!
15:08	bbloom	ToxicFrog: i'll agree that debugging clojure can be ugly/messy/hacky/black-magic, but i'd say that it's MUCH EASIER to debug than many languages: Thanks Immutability & prn !
15:09	callen	ToxicFrog: I know it's a weak point, I'm almost perpetually pissed that debugging is nicer in Python than Clojure right now.
15:09	technomancy	ToxicFrog: it's still pretty lame in that you have to touch the source to enable it
15:09	technomancy	which is something nrepl-discover solves
15:09	callen	bbloom: that's not debugging.
15:09	callen	that's just deriving benefit from clearer/simpler semantics.
15:10	callen	that doesn't mean debugging doesn't still suck.
15:10	bbloom	callen: as one who has contributed to visual studio's xbox debugger, i think i'm qualified to say that clear/simple semantics are twice as important to debugging than debuggers :-)
15:10	callen	I pray for the day when you no longer lean on Microsoft for credibility.
15:10	bbloom	but yes, a real debugger would be nice
15:10	callen	and just make your point.
15:13	seangrove	bbloom: Didn't know you worked on that, glad you mentioned it
15:14	bbloom	seangrove: i don't know why i bother talking to callen….
15:14	seangrove	Gotta take the good with the bad
15:15	seangrove	I wonder how you can incentivize really great tools for the clojure ecosystem though
15:15	bbloom	the first time i encountered him in here, a year ago, he privately messaged me to tell me to go fuck myself with a rake…. sigh i guess i should figure out how to get my irc client to not forget my ignore list every time i close it
15:15	callen	seangrove: unifying on nRepl helps.
15:15	callen	bbloom: do you have a log of that?
15:15	technomancy	seangrove: nrepl-discoooooooover https://github.com/technomancy/nrepl-discover
15:15	callen	Polite converstion commends addressing the conversation at face value with your conversation partner, not appealing to authority or assigning homework.
15:16	seangrove	The immune-system reaction to proprietary tools means it's really difficult to sustainably and continually build and refine tools
15:16	bbloom	callen: you've never had a polite conversation ever. you have no idea what a polite conversation is
15:16	callen	There is nothing more obnoxious or unappealing than talking to somebody who won't actually talk to you, but instead treat each point as an opportunity to mention something they worked on.
15:16	seangrove	technomancy: Looking through this...
15:16	technomancy	~gentlemen
15:16	clojurebot	You can't fight in here. This is the war room.
15:16	dnolen	seangrove: building really good debuggers is a thankless task. Something everyone wants but no one wants to maintain.
15:16	llasram	bbloom: Ignoring people permanently can make channels odd at times though. Watching people converse with ghosts
15:17	seangrove	But just thinking about how far along visual studio/xcode are - they're backed by corps with financial interest in their polish
15:17	callen	llasram: you can ignore replies if you're using a civilized client.
15:17	llasram	Oh, interesting
15:17	bbloom	llasram: if that's happening, i can just check raynes' logs
15:17	seangrove	dnolen: I'm not sure. I think there are people that would love to have that job if it were their full-time thing to work on infrastructure and tooling
15:17	technomancy	seangrove: slime does fine from community contributions
15:17	callen	llasram: you ignore the person, then replies to that person with a flag usually.
15:17	dnolen	seangrove: oh yes if there's money involved sure
15:17	technomancy	a lot better than xcode from what I've read
15:17	bbloom	seangrove: no, it's quite thankless even then :-P
15:18	seangrove	Light-table, etc.
15:18	callen	there was something I was debugging this weekend that Light Table probably could've helped with.
15:18	Raynes	bbloom: Ignoring people is the silliest thing ever. You don't need your IRC clients help -- you can very easily choose to ignore what people say despite having seen it.
15:18	dnolen	seangrove: but then I remember from 2004-2008 the only browser with decent debugging was FireFox
15:18	dnolen	JS debugging
15:18	callen	I bumped into (nil ...) :(
15:18	seangrove	bbloom: I was talking with some twitter people who work on their jvm implementation/tweaking - it's pretty low level, not very sexy, and they love it
15:18	noprompt	Raynes: well said.
15:19	technomancy	Raynes: you're understating how difficult it is. it requires great mental discipline.
15:19	bbloom	seangrove: i didn't say it wasn't enjoyable. just thankless :-)
15:19	Raynes	technomancy: I've done it for years now.
15:19	technomancy	Raynes: and you're an inspiration to us all
15:19	seangrove	bbloom: Ah, fair enough, hadn't made that distinction :)
15:19	shiranaihito	wow.. eclipse is a mess
15:19	Raynes	technomancy: FYI, I never /ignore'd lajla and the dude exists to come tell me that he worships my shadow.
15:19	Raynes	Unless someone is spamming, I'm pretty much going to be able to ignore them if necessary
15:19	ToxicFrog	seangrove: re working full time on infrastructure and tooling: that is my job. I'd love it a lot more if the tools were lua/clojure rather than python/C++, though~
15:19	Foxboron	Wait, we can't worship your shadow?
15:19	Raynes	You can, just don't tell me about it.
15:19	Raynes	:p
15:19	callen	Foxboron: I think it's a Lexx reference.
15:19	noprompt	Raynes, my love.
15:20	callen	Not a worshipful of Raynes thing.
15:20	noprompt	Raynes, I worship your shadow.
15:20	Raynes	noprompt: I bet you do.
15:20	noprompt	rofl
15:20	Raynes	No wonder you want me to hang out at your house.
15:21	noprompt	haha. well that and the bacon tournament.
15:21	callen	noprompt: I did a taste-testing vodka tournament not too long ago.
15:21	seangrove	ToxicFrog: But then a company has to hire you full time at a salary that's ridiculously high (here in SF) to do something that is only somewhat related to their goals
15:21	ystael	bacon ... tournament?
15:22	ystael	i'm imagining boar-mounted jousts with sausage forks
15:22	jtoy	is there an operator for less than or equal to ?
15:22	jtoy	oh, >=
15:22	noprompt	callen: i've managed to avoid alcohol for the past 2.5 months. the thought of a vodka tournament makes my stomach churn.
15:22	seangrove	I feel like it could be done sustainably, but I'm not sure how yet. I like what kodowa is doing though.
15:22	callen	ucb: hi
15:22	amalloy	jtoy: <=, mate
15:22	Bronsa	that's the opposite jtoy
15:22	jtoy	i meant that, thx
15:23	callen	jtoy: do you use a repl?
15:23	ucb	hey callen, how do?
15:23	jtoy	callen i do, but for some reason i was expecting >= to not exist in clojure
15:23	noprompt	oh i did that yesterday. i had a > where there should have been a < and couldn't figure out why my code wasn't working for like 15mins.
15:24	ucb	noprompt: nice
15:24	noprompt	ucb: it was a bloodbath.
15:24	seangrove	dnolen: Well, that situation has certainly changed. Firefox's js debugging is barely tolerable last time I tried to polish Zenbox on it
15:26	callen	ucb: pretty good. got a bunch of hacking done last weekend, looking forward to what's coming up this week/weekend. `cbp is awesome and working on something for pomegranate.
15:26	dnolen	seangrove: FF has improved a lot recently. But my point is that good debuggers usually involve lots of time and likely lots of money.
15:27	ToxicFrog	seangrove: most companies above a certain size have a tooling team, I'd expect
15:27	seangrove	ToxicFrog: Maybe the problem is that Clojure(script) doesn't have enough penetration at companies large enough to have dev teams that can open-source their work
15:28	ToxicFrog	seangrove: yeah, you'll note that I'm talking in general, not regarding clojure specifically
15:28	bbloom	dnolen: it also generally involves changes to the compiler / evaluator
15:28	ucb	callen: smashing
15:28	bbloom	dnolen: which is particularly slow to happen for jvm clojure
15:29	callen	ucb: have you used pomegranate? It's really cool.
15:29	jtoy	i cant wait for clojure on llvm, finally fast startups
15:29	bbloom	things like locals clearing really fucks up debuggability
15:29	ucb	callen: I've heard it in passing. Is that JVM reloading things thing?
15:29	callen	yep!
15:29	ucb	yeah, read about it but never really used it
15:29	callen	ucb: lets you update dependencies, adding them to your classpath. `cbp is adding the ability to just directly call "sync!" and then it just reads your project.clj to update your dependencies and classpath.
15:30	ucb	nice!
15:30	callen	ucb: so that you don't have to specify dependencies/maven repos manually or potentially let your repl get out of "sync" with your project.clj
15:30	ucb	I used to use drip, but not any more
15:30	callen	well drip is orthogonal to this.
15:30	callen	pomegranate is just a library that lets you manage deps/classpath at runtime and interact with maven repos.
15:30	ucb	sure, but I was just mentioning my leinhancements
15:30	callen	ahhh
15:30	dnolen	bbloom: yep that too
15:30	callen	yeah I might need to push my .lein/profiles.clj
15:31	ucb	callen: that'd be nice
15:31	ucb	I also need to do more clj hacking; haven't done any in a good while
15:31	ucb	with the exception of the simple silly-searchy thing of the other day
15:31	bbloom	personally, i dislike debuggers that are integrated directly in to the evaluation strategy
15:32	callen	ucb: well, `cbp asked me for something to do and I tossed him that pomegranate thing from my to-do list. Are you volunteering?
15:32	bbloom	i much prefer tracing + repeatable execution
15:32	bbloom	i only want single stepping on a fully deoptimized source-level evaluation
15:32	ucb	callen: I'd normally volunteer but I'd also have to find some free time to comply with my commitment; what did you have in mind?
15:33	callen	ucb: well I haven't publicized it, but I have a todo list with items of varying value and difficulty. Let me see what remains from last weekend.
15:33	ucb	kk
15:34	callen	diffmerge for Clojure, nrepl-ritz automatic locals clearing, ClojureWiki, proxy+ with annotation support, rewrite Selmer with Instaparse, Mail server -> database, IRC bot/logger -> database, quickcheck for Clojure
15:34	callen	Datomic in the browser.
15:34	callen	ucb: them be the highlights.
15:35	ucb	all very worthy
15:36	callen	I'm serious about Datomic in browser. I don't mean a REST API passthrough.
15:37	callen	I'm not serious in the sense that I would think it'd be anything other than a fun hack.
15:37	ucb	oh, I know what you mean
15:37	ucb	couchdb has puchdb for a reason
15:37	callen	well somebody did a REST API passthrough, posted it to HN and Reddit, and called it "Datomic in the browser"
15:37	ucb	pouchdb*
15:37	callen	I was pissed.
15:38	ucb	heh
15:39	ucb	surely you wouldn't do a full-blown datomic in the browser implementation?
15:39	ucb	(just thinking about it now)
15:40	callen	ucb: it might be a little potemkin, but it would in fact store the history of data in quads.
15:40	callen	if it could flush the data to LocalStorage, all the better.
15:40	ucb	right
15:40	callen	it'd make for an eventually consistent bootstrapped web client.
15:41	callen	you'd open the client, see the old data and get the incremental refresh live.
15:41	callen	maybe use a bridge to back AngularJS models with the datomic "facts"
15:42	callen	could be fun.
15:42	asteve	think less, that's what I always say
15:43	ucb	heh
15:43	ucb	fogzbugz is eating my soul as we speak
15:44	callen	ucb: my most frequent job title lately has been JIRA-naut, so I sympathize.
15:44	ucb	partners in misery
15:45	glosoli	what hook do I need to use on Emacs so I could make REPL buffer load auto-complete-mode by default ?
15:45	Raynes	ucb: It's eating your… joel.
15:45	ucb	heh
15:45	arrdem	Raynes: -_-
15:45	callen	glosoli: everywhere or just one mode?
15:45	noprompt	Raynes: that's terrifying.
15:45	Raynes	Oh yeah? OH YEAH? Well I've been upgrading to ruby 2.
15:45	justin_smith	how do I make nrepl not destroy the repl buffer when the other end disconnects?
15:45	callen	Raynes: lol refinements.
15:46	justin_smith	(in emacs, that is)
15:46	glosoli	callen: Well I have it in all prog-modes, though doesn't seem to work in REPL buffer
15:46	callen	justin_smith: modify...nrepl.el?
15:46	noprompt	callen: refinments? isn't that a ruby 2.0 hack?
15:46	callen	glosoli: https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=nrepl+mode+hook&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 looks plausible.
15:46	callen	noprompt: I was riffing off what Raynes said, yes.
15:46	justin_smith	callen: I was hoping there was a config I had not found, but I guess I could fork nrepl
15:46	callen	justin_smith: ...no don't fork.
15:47	noprompt	justin_smith: why wouldn't you want it to disconnect?
15:47	callen	justin_smith: just hack in a boolean flag and submit a PR please.
15:47	callen	justin_smith: if you don't want to, send me the code!
15:47	justin_smith	noprompt: I want the buffer to exist, it has printouts I want to refer to
15:47	sarkis	hey guys been thinkng about using clojure for a little project i have in mind that involves a lot of web scraping
15:47	justin_smith	even if the other end disconnected
15:47	sarkis	does clojure excel at something recursive like scrabing?
15:47	callen	sarkis: it's pretty good at stuff like this, yes.
15:47	sarkis	scraping**
15:47	noprompt	justin_smith: oh yah, that would be useful.
15:48	sarkis	ok great, good excuse to play with clojure, thanks :)
15:48	callen	sarkis: data processing, analysis, ML, scraping, web. All good areas for clojure.
15:48	callen	sarkis: have fun :)
15:49	noprompt	sarkis: i brought clojure in to work by way of database migration projects.
15:49	ucb	sarkis: noprompt is working on a thing that'll make your life easier
15:49	ucb	noprompt: right?
15:50	noprompt	ucb: no. that's the opposite of my mission. i desire to bring pain and suffering to mortal men.
15:50	ucb	or that.
15:50	noprompt	:)
15:50	ToxicFrog	noprompt: I live in hope that I'll be able to get my team into Clojure. There's some people using it elsewhere in the company, but no-one nearby.
15:51	noprompt	ToxicFrog: (un)fortunately, i'm a one man show where i work so i pretty much call the shots with regard to technology.
15:52	glosoli	callen: Hm thanks seems like it worked this time, must been doing something wrong, though it felt as If I used the same hook before
15:52	ucb	noprompt: nice (?)
15:53	noprompt	ToxicFrog: ruby required way too much mental overhead and reading blogs about design patterns makes me wanna die. clojure has brought sanity and clarity to my daily workflow.
15:53	noprompt	ucb: it has it's tradeoffs.
15:53	ucb	noprompt: I've been in your position as well. With the addition that I was forced to do both PHP and iphone games.
15:53	noprompt	ucb: there are lots of times i wish i was working with someone who had more expertise and experience.
15:54	ucb	noprompt: for that you have things like #clojure, right?
15:54	noprompt	ucb: oh there's some php to maintain.
15:54	ToxicFrog	ucb: I'm so sorry.
15:54	noprompt	ucb: yes. and books. it also pays to be self motivated.
15:54	ucb	noprompt: there's always some cobol^Wphp to maintain
15:54	ucb	ToxicFrog: not there any more since 2009 so don't be :)
15:54	ucb	noprompt: nod
15:54	ToxicFrog	noprompt: we're ostensibly a Python team but also work on a bunch of things with tentacles extending into stuff written in C++ :(
15:56	ucb	eep
15:56	noprompt	ucb: one of the projects i'm working on right now is a rewrite of an old php application in clojure.
15:56	ucb	ah, well, that's rather nice then
15:56	noprompt	ucb: it was mind boggling digging through that code lemme tell ya.
15:56	ucb	I'm sure it was
15:57	callen	ToxicFrog: ouch. We managed to stay mostly Python despite having a lot of matrix math stuff.
15:57	callen	compiling old fortran libraries sucks though.
15:58	ToxicFrog	callen: most of our tools are Python, but we're also responsible for certain features in production servers which are all C++.
15:58	ToxicFrog	Also, occasionally someone on the team will go insane and write a stand-alone tool in C++ before anyone can stop them. :(
16:00	Apage43	is that like in dwarf fortress when one of your dwarves occasionally goes mad and turns another dwarf into an overcoat
16:00	callen	ToxicFrog: kill them next time.
16:01	callen	Apage43: <3
16:01	callen	Apage43: that game produces unparalleled hilarity and horror.
16:01	arrdem	(inc Apage43)
16:01	lazybot	⇒ 2
16:05	ystael	the hilarity happens when i read other people's Let's Plays, and the horror happens when I try to remember the keybindings
16:06	justin_smith	noprompt: ucb: here it is php -> ruby -> clojure here. The design has slowly mutated through all of it but bares more than a trace of is origins.
16:06	ToxicFrog	Apage43: yes, pretty much~
16:07	noprompt	justin_smith: that was my path too. although i did check out haskell and some other langs along the way.
16:08	justin_smith	noprompt: I didn't work on the other stages, they brough me in for clojure, but that is the tool's path
16:08	callen	C -> Common Lisp bastard -> Python -> Clojure
16:08	callen	smatterings of other languages.
16:08	callen	ohhhh, you mean company.
16:08	justin_smith	yeah, sorry
16:08	callen	my mistake.
16:08	callen	justin_smith: how does Clojure code with that heritage look?
16:09	justin_smith	csound -> tcl -> scheme -> common lisp -> c -> ocaml -> scheme -> clojure
16:09	callen	solid.
16:09	hyPiRion	dang you guys
16:09	hyPiRion	common lisp, java -> clojure. The fact that it was on the JVM was incidental.
16:09	callen	justin_smith: I did some Haskell and other things as well, but my list is just core languages.
16:09	justin_smith	callen: lots of stateful orm concepts wrapped up in functional data transformations
16:09	callen	hyPiRion: I started young.
16:10	callen	justin_smith: oh, I've done stuff like that in Python. better than the alternative but it can be a little o_O sometimes.
16:10	justin_smith	yeah, orm maps pretty well to most webapp stuff it seems
16:10	justin_smith	though I sometimes wonder if we could totally break out of the mode into something more functional in basic design
16:11	Okasu	hyPiRion: Now go to workshop and make us some artifact.
16:11	callen	hrm. people actually push "0.1.0-SNAPSHOT" jars to clojars? grungy.
16:12	justin_smith	callen: those were my core languages, I got fiddly and constantly wanted to try things new ways, throw in c++, forth, x86 assembly, shell, php, ruby, supercollider, puredata for everything I have made some kind of result with
16:12	Okasu	hyPiRion has begun a mysterious construction!
16:12	hyPiRion	ah dang, forgot that one
16:12	justin_smith	oh, forgot elisp
16:13	brighid	justin_smith: Hooray elisp :3
16:13	callen	I technically did elisp all along that timeline, and I experimented a lot while I was using Python.
16:13	callen	justin_smith: yeah, I did Ruby, Haskell, C++, and others during the Python time period.
16:14	justin_smith	I dreamed at one point of a language with first-class emacs highlighting as a syntactic element (you would change faces to change what role the code had) - it was fun to play with but for obvious reasons it fizzled
16:14	callen	Mostly because Python felt neutered.
16:15	Okasu	ls ~/coding => ada clojure cpp java lisp(it's scheme/CL) prolog ruby c coq erlang haskell J javascript R
16:15	lazybot	data dev etc home lib lost+found media selinux srv sys tmp usr
16:15	hyPiRion	Well, I've done a lot of other PLs, but I don't consider them my favourite go-to PL.
16:16	ToxicFrog	I never really got into Python. I mean, I use it, but it doesn't really click for me.
16:16	ToxicFrog	By the time I started using Python (which was quite late; university) I already knew Lua and preferred that.
16:17	arrdem	lua is awesome, but I'm used to reaching for python first...
16:18	Okasu	arrdem: Heh, i guess i'm not the only one seeing pun in "lua is awesome", but awesome is sucks.
16:18	Okasu	time du -mhs ~/codingtime du -mhs ~/coding
16:18	Okasu	3.0G/home/george/coding
16:18	justin_smith	I've only used lua to configure window managers - is it highly string oriented or is that a misapprehension?
16:18	arrdem	Okasu: awesome is really unfortunately bad
16:18	Okasu	du -mhs ~/coding 0.27s user 1.43s system 4% cpu 40.560 totaldu -mhs ~/coding 0.27s user 1.43s system 4% cpu 40.560 total
16:19	ToxicFrog	arrdem: for me the main thing is that for small stuff I reach for lua, and for big stuff (i.e. stuff where I want a big, easily managed library ecosystem) I bypass python entirely and reach straight for clojure or scala, depending on how statically typed I'm feeling.
16:19	ToxicFrog	justin_smith: I'm going to say "a misapprehension" with the proviso that I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean by "highly string oriented".
16:20	justin_smith	ToxicFrog: the way clojure is heavily hashmap oriented - using strings as a go to datastructure and intermediate representation in algorithms etc.
16:21	arrdem	ToxicFrog: yeah sounds about right. I hammered out cortex (http://github.com/arrdem/cortex) in the last week in python, but TBH that's because I don't feel comfortable with Clojure's semantics writing cli apps.
16:21	ToxicFrog	justin_smith: oh. Yeah, in that case the answer is "lua is heavily hashmap oriented, but unlike clojure it presumes mutability"
16:21	callen	arrdem: really?
16:21	callen	arrdem: what about it don't you like?
16:21	ToxicFrog	If you find yourself stuffing things into a string rather than using tables you've gone horribly wrong somewhere.
16:22	ToxicFrog	(similarly, if you publish an API that requires users to pass functions to you by name rather than by value, I will break your kneecaps)
16:22	ToxicFrog	(I'm looking at you, xchat lua plugin API(
16:22	Okasu	arrdem: I really liked clojure.contrib.command-line.
16:22	arrdem	Okasu: I'm younger than contrib :P but I'll take a look at it
16:23	justin_smith	doesn't the warm up time make clojure kind of tedious for most idiomatic command line usage?
16:23	arrdem	justin_smith: yeah that's one problem
16:23	Okasu	arrdem: Younger?
16:23	arrdem	Okasu: I came to clojure after Contrib bit the dust is what I mean
16:23	ToxicFrog	justin_smith: that said, lua is reasonably alright at string processing, and the strings are 8-bit clean so they get used for arbitrary data buffers, not just text - but the only time you'd pack things into/out of a string rather than using an actual data structure is when interfacing with something else that only talks strings.
16:23	ToxicFrog	Loading/saving config data from disk, for example.
16:23	mdrogalis	arrdem: Contrib "predates" you :)
16:24	arrdem	^ THAT
16:24	hyPiRion	arrdem: Yay for younglings!
16:24	arrdem	I think that Raynes is the only one here younger than me...
16:24	callen	arrdem: it could be resurrected :)
16:24	Raynes	arrdem: There was a fellow here with Foxboron that was < 16.
16:24	Raynes	Not sure if he is still around.
16:25	arrdem	damn...
16:25	ToxicFrog	justin_smith: so I guess what I'm saying here is that if awesomewm is using a "heavily string oriented" lua API, they're probably doing something wrong~
16:25	callen	LOL
16:25	arrdem	my todo list is where ideas go to die :P
16:26	arrdem	callen: we should do a refheap clone that's "project ideas I'll never get to, someone build this"
16:27	callen	arrdem: I do a pretty good job of draining my list. There are things like you describe out there.
16:27	arrdem	callen: good on you. I'm really bad about never getting to or finishing things.
16:27	hyPiRion	arrdem: That's a good idea, unfortunately you just said that your todo list is where ideas go to die.
16:27	callen	arrdem: make me aware of them.
16:27	callen	arrdem: even if I don't do things, I make people aware of what the community's needs are.
16:28	callen	do things specifically myself, that is.
16:29	arrdem	hyPiRion: thank you for catching the unhandled recursive case :D
16:31	lynaghk	Are there any libraries that extend clojure.set with outer joins? I saw this SO post http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13009939/outer-join-in-clojure?lq=1 but would prefer to pull in a lib from maven rather than copy/paste.
16:32	callen	lynaghk: https://github.com/francoisdevlin/devlinsf-clojure-utils/blob/master/src/lib/sfd/table_utils.clj#L39-L49 ?
16:33	lynaghk	callen: right, I just wanted to ask if there was something like that on clojars already that works with clojure 1.5
16:34	noprompt	lynaghk: yeah i was hoping for something like that the other day myself.
16:41	noprompt	has anyone ever tried to target both nodejs and "standard" cli
16:41	noprompt	that was a question. :\|
16:41	arrdem	I'm trying to target raw asm.. does that count?
16:41	callen	noprompt: wat
16:41	noprompt	callen: not wat
16:42	callen	"target"? Like, with a rifle?
16:42	noprompt	i'm being totally cereal here.
16:42	callen	because I'm down with hunting the least dangerous game - Node.js users.
16:42	callen	(I'm serious in that I don't understand what you're asking)
16:43	noprompt	basically i'd like to compile to js targeting node and a jar with a -main fn. i'm trying to share as much code between the two as possible.
16:43	arrdem	callen: he's asking if anyone here is writing clojure apps that run both as clojure apps and as cljs apps
16:43	callen	oh.
16:43	callen	noprompt: lots of cljx?
16:44	noprompt	callen: well, i was just using the crossovers option in :cljsbuild
16:46	noprompt	should i use cljx?
16:46	noprompt	i guess i should
16:46	lynaghk	noprompt: it's kind of a hack, but so is everything I've seen that tries to solve this problem
16:49	noprompt	lynaghk: that's pretty neat. for some reason i'm having a bit of trouble getting everything to work out with crossovers.
16:50	lynaghk	noprompt: yes, crossovers is much more of a hack
16:50	lynaghk	noprompt: I haven't been using cljx lately, but I know cemerick has been using it a ton with success.
16:51	noprompt	lynaghk: do you use crossovers?
16:52	dnolen	ok this, http://gist.github.com/swannodette/6273757 + core.match could be really, really, really sick
16:53	lynaghk	noprompt: no, I use cljx.
16:53	dnolen	you can pass the result of dispatch into tap, dispatch itself can use core.match to determine the key
16:53	dnolen	anybody downstream can tap their own dispatch/lookup
16:54	dnolen	close to predicate dispatch at the event level :D
16:55	bbloom	dnolen: why are you using vectors instead of sets?
16:55	dnolen	bbloom: could use sets, but I guess I thought preserving listen order might be important - maybe not?
16:55	bbloom	dnolen: that's what i was wondering about :-)
16:56	bbloom	dnolen: seems like i'd rather break listening order, since it's almost always a nightmare to depend on that
16:56	bbloom	especially if you had mutliple threads & wanted to have concurrency in -invoke
16:56	dnolen	bbloom: true enough
16:56	bbloom	neat though
16:58	bbloom	i still want an -reachable? method & then have subscribe/unsubscribe methods maintain a global set of all subscriptions, then occasionally walk that set & unsubscribe to anything that's not "reachable?"
16:58	bbloom	for DOM, reachable? would == attached?
16:59	bbloom	i'm gonna convince somebody someday that garbage collection is more widely applicable than language VMs :-)
17:06	dnolen	bbloom: sounds like a pretty straightforward thing to do for MVC type things, not sure you can anything about the DOM though
17:06	bbloom	dnolen: do you ever care about events from detached nodes?
17:08	cemerick	noprompt, lynaghk: I actually added a reference to another nontrivial project using cljx, some clojure/cljs validation lib
17:08	cemerick	added to the cljx README, that is
17:08	dnolen	bbloom: I'm more worried about the leaks because of not cleaning up
17:08	bbloom	dnolen: but i'm advocating for automatic clean up...
17:08	lynaghk	cemerick: cool, thanks.
17:09	dnolen	bbloom: well you're talking about automatic unsubscribe
17:10	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, i'm saying if you stop listening to a channel, you shouldn't have to manually unsubscribe the source
17:10	bbloom	dnolen: i might read one message and then i shouldn't have the burdon of associating a channel w/ the subject & then communicating to the subject that i'm done
17:11	noprompt	cemerick: thanks. i'll take a look. i'm trying to have frak be usable from clj, cljs, and the command line both for nodejs and with lein run etc.
17:11	bbloom	jquery enables auto-unsubscribe by forcibly overriding dom remove operations, but then must also provide detatch & attach methods to handle the case of not paying the unsub/resub cost
17:11	dnolen	bbloom: what do mean stop listening on a channel? you don't explicitly listen on one anyway, you just read values off it, when you're done, you're done
17:11	callen	noprompt: that's pretty cool :)
17:11	noprompt	i guess that's probably pretty rediculous but i think cljx is probably what i'll need to use.
17:12	dnolen	bbloom: this problem only occurs w subscribe/unsubscribe, not core.async
17:12	dnolen	plain core.async
17:12	cemerick	noprompt: frak is jkk's thing?
17:12	ucb	callen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l3wkOeBLuY
17:12	callen	I'm not sure I believe in channels and events.
17:12	bbloom	dnolen: i know, that's why i'm saying that there needs to be a solution for dealing w/ "subjects" to use the Rx terminology
17:12	noprompt	cemerick: frak is my thing. :)
17:12	bbloom	dnolen: Rx.net utilizes explicit Dispose calls
17:12	bbloom	dnolen: i think that sucks
17:12	callen	I'm pretty sure message passing over a channel is a poorly implemented ephemeral database of facts.
17:12	cemerick	noprompt: oh, oh, frak, right :-P
17:13	dnolen	bbloom: you mean users need to call that
17:13	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, but only if your Observables have an underlying Subject
17:13	noprompt	cemerick: it seems people want it for all four targets. :/
17:13	cemerick	noprompt: cool thing, that
17:13	bbloom	but then you wind up with all kinds of ownership problems
17:13	bbloom	it blows
17:13	callen	ucb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIVIEqrfszg
17:13	ucb	callen: <3 the cover art
17:14	dnolen	bbloom: huh well I'm working on another MVC like thing called app-state, it could probaby talk to dispatchers and remove them as long as the keys correspond
17:14	noprompt	cemerick: thanks. as of last night it's a bit better. still a wip, bit of a pita.
17:14	bbloom	dnolen: jquery has remove and detatch, the former unsubscribes handlers & the later holds on to them. if you don't re-attach a detatched thing, you leak. if you do re-attach a removed thing, you have to manually resubscribe & pay that cost
17:14	noprompt	cemerick: btw that youtube clip on the austin readme, i lolled.
17:14	callen	ucb: this is some good Summoning.
17:14	bbloom	dnolen: i'd like to be able to remove/re-add/whatever & then have some system patch up the channels/subscriptions to make sense
17:14	cemerick	noprompt: oh, why?
17:14	cemerick	oh, the clip
17:14	noprompt	cemerick: yeah, good stuff.
17:14	bbloom	dnolen: so i pay an amortized cost & don't have both removal primitives
17:15	cemerick	I thought you meant my walkthrough. Which, I can see people laughing at, too. :-P
17:15	dnolen	bbloom: interesting idea, probably makes sense to build the basic components and see how they wire together
17:15	bbloom	dnolen: yup, that's what i was proposing we think about some more. react.js does this, but the subsystems are tied together (relatively loosely, but concretely)
17:15	noprompt	cemerick: oh. yeah, i didn't laugh at that. it's awesome you did that. it's inspiring.
17:16	noprompt	cemerick: what application do you use to make those videos?
17:16	cemerick	Well, I wanted to make it clear what's going on.
17:16	cemerick	noprompt: that was screenflow
17:17	cemerick	hopefully there's a non-shite linux equivalent
17:17	callen	ucb: we had a duel of the music and you won. I like that Black Moth song but Summoning is lovely.
17:18	dnolen	bbloom: right now I'm thinking about event dispatch perf mostly, it boggles the mind that Backbone and Ember are so slow
17:18	ucb	callen: I wouldn't call it a duel; I'd call it an amicable exchange. And that Black Moth tune is smashing. I'd never listened to their stuff before and now I'm queuing songs left and right.
17:18	noprompt	cemerick: i think might have to try doing something like that for garden when i push out the 1.0.0 this month.
17:19	callen	ucb: I figured it'd be up your alley :)
17:19	bbloom	dnolen: i dunno anything about ember, but how slow can backbone possibly be? i mean it just maintains a list of subscribers & bubbles them in a straightforward linear way
17:19	noprompt	need to get that working with cljs...
17:19	ucb	callen: much appreciated :)
17:19	bbloom	dnolen: the typical usage of backbone leaks memory like crazy, but that's a different story
17:19	dnolen	bbloom: http://jsfiddle.net/jashkenas/CGSd5/
17:19	noncom	lein uberjar does not compile java-sources.. why so?
17:20	noncom	i have the path set
17:20	bbloom	dnolen: ember is slow, but backbone seems fine in that particular benchmark
17:20	dnolen	bbloom: that's only 100 elements, it gets really slow as you increase the number
17:20	noprompt	there was a cool fiddle comparing backbone, ember, and angular. ember was super slow.
17:21	dnolen	bbloom: this very likely something you can address via buffering, but nobody exposes that
17:21	bbloom	dnolen: this isn't doing any dispatch at all
17:22	bbloom	dnolen: the general slowness w/ backbone is coming from rerendering from scratch via the template every frame
17:22	bbloom	it's also using jquery's html method, which does like 78390589353 platform compat things
17:22	patchwork	When using % lein ring server from the command line, how do I prevent it from reloading?
17:22	patchwork	It seems ring-reload is built into ring server
17:22	srruby	Anyone remember the keyboard shortcut to run the current file in the lein repl? This is in gvim. I'm using vim-clojure-static and vim-fireplace .
17:23	noprompt	here's the angularjs version of that http://jsfiddle.net/mhevery/vYknU/23/
17:23	dnolen	bbloom: yes that's a problem to, but Backbone doesn't batch events, every attribute set will cause event dispatching as far as I understand it.
17:24	bbloom	dnolen: sure, that sucks, but nobody is listening to those events, so it's just 100 no-ops
17:27	dnolen	bbloom: not a noop, it doesn't trigger set html calls
17:27	srruby	I found the answer: c-p-r
17:27	dnolen	bbloom: but you are right the benchmark is flawed for Backbone, it doesn't measure event perf
17:27	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, that was my main point :-)
17:27	dnolen	bbloom: and Ember (whatever version this is) is catastrophically slow
17:27	bbloom	dnolen: anyway, please please please look at react :-)
17:28	bbloom	dnolen: i'll keep mentioning it to you until you come back to me & tell me how awesome it is
17:28	dnolen	bbloom: haha
17:28	bbloom	it demos poorly, but it's implementation is brilliant & will clearly scale to larger apps better than anything else i've seen, including my previous favorite: angular
17:29	bbloom	it demos poorly b/c it looks familiar enough to feel like it's not different at all & is slightly more verbose b/c it actually covers the essential nature of UI modularity
17:29	bbloom	you have to study the implementation to really understand why it's so awesome
17:31	ucb	callen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2PwS8FCfxo
17:32	callen	ucb: yeah I'd seen that.
17:32	ucb	callen: first time for me o_O
17:32	callen	I don't like the music that play in the background in the intro
17:32	callen	the nursery rhyme stuff
17:33	srruby	bbloom: what is the URL for react ? I'm not familiar with it
17:33	dnolen	bbloom: never could get excited about Angular, is there any way for me to understand React without wading through the source code?
17:33	bbloom	srruby: http://facebook.github.io/react/
17:33	srruby	bbloom: Thank you.
17:33	bbloom	dnolen: the new docs are much better than they were a few months ago: http://facebook.github.io/react/docs/getting-started.html
17:33	bbloom	read down the left column, shouldn't take you more than an hour
17:34	bbloom	can probably skim it in 10 minutes, but the key ideas need some baking time :-)
17:34	callen	ucb: the funny part is it's sorta vanilla black metal, which is totally unexpected.
17:34	ucb	callen: well, she's 6, right?
17:35	bbloom	dnolen: my excitement about angular was for smaller apps, it gets messy fast for larger stuff w/ lots of directives. not so w/ react
17:36	srruby	bbloom: This is a clojure chat room. Are you using clojurescript on the front end?
17:36	callen	ucb: I mean that in a show of admiration. black metallers are all about "trve kvlt"
17:36	bbloom	srruby: i'm a contributor to the cljs compiler, but i don't use it for any client work or anything like that b/c there isn't a mature enough library that i like for typical UI work.
17:37	ucb	callen: heh
17:37	bbloom	srruby: i think that react is relevant b/c it's a largely functional design that would map cleanly to cljs
17:37	srruby	Thanks.
17:38	bbloom	i'm also not so subtly attempting to get dnolen to implement it for me :-)
17:38	bbloom	or at least collaborate with me to implement it
17:38	callen	bbloom: Tom Sawyer
17:38	dnolen	bbloom: I still don't see what I'm supposed to like about react, you wade through a lot of stuff in these docs
17:39	bbloom	dnolen: that's what i was saying, it doesn't demo well. it looks like everything else you're used to on the surface
17:40	bbloom	dnolen: but your render code is a pure function that returns a DESCRIPTION of the subtree, not an actual subtree.
17:40	callen	most web sites, applications, or much of anything will never need anything like what facebook writes libraries for.
17:40	bbloom	dnolen: state is stored in a global state map & it's lifetime is automatically managed by component ID corellation
17:40	callen	Javelin comes to mind WRT React.js
17:41	bbloom	dnolen: pervasive memozation of rendering results powers fast DOM updates
17:41	bbloom	dnolen: it's functional, w/ a little dash of objects for stateful components. it's a really nice balance. really, don't ignore it or write it off
17:42	callen	"functional", with global mutable state?
17:42	bbloom	callen: in a pure functional setting, global mutable state is the ONLY kind of state
17:42	bbloom	http://awelonblue.wordpress.com/2012/10/21/local-state-is-poison/
17:42	dnolen	bbloom: this all stuff that I like, but I mostly get bored looking at this code - classes, mixins, snore
17:43	bbloom	dnolen: don't think of it like classes and mixins
17:43	callen	Religion $A is bad, lets all go to the other side of the boat! Boat is tipping over, lets all go to the other side of the boat!
17:43	bbloom	dnolen: think of stateless components as templates & stateful components as go-routines
17:44	bbloom	dnolen: you could trivially replace their class model w/ a go-routine. all of the "object lifetime" methods correlate to (do 1 (loop [] 2 (when 3 (recur))) 4)
17:44	callen	I'm sympathetic to what you said, but I'm having a hard time seeing why there's a coherent "improvement" involved to using React.js over AngularJS.
17:44	bbloom	dnolen: plus some extra states for mount/unmount to/from the dom
17:44	dnolen	bbloom: yes, yes I get all that. I'm more excited about your succinct description then Reacts docs or codebase
17:44	bbloom	dnolen: i'm not saying you should use react, i wouldn't want to give up cljs, i'm saying you should study it
17:45	dnolen	bbloom: but the parts worth studying can be described in like a paragraph
17:45	dnolen	instead of me reading all this boilerplate code
17:45	bbloom	dnolen: it can only be described in a paragraph if you have been paying attention to rich hickey for years :-)
17:46	bbloom	dnolen: hence they don't assume such a background in their docs
17:46	bbloom	dnolen: i've studied like 3978589353 UI toolkits & this is the first one for html/dom that ever made me go FINALLY.
17:47	bbloom	just replace each class name with a keyword, & it's basically a functional program :-P
17:47	callen	I should write an FRP library for CLJS just so bbloom begrudgingly uses something I made.
17:48	bbloom	callen: i don't believe in signals/behaviors style FRP
17:48	bbloom	and i've read the literature.
17:48	callen	whatever, the point is, I'm going to subvert your fetishes and make you mine.
17:48	bbloom	callen: dude, go away.
17:49	noncom	if in lein plugin i want to concat to a list that holds symbols, like :aot, how do i go about it?
17:50	callen	noncom: you mean you want to preprocess the project.clj?
17:50	noncom	no-no, i am ok with this. just how i properly append the symbol-type values?
17:50	djanatyn	I came up with a panel wrapper thingy for quil :)
17:50	djanatyn	http://sprunge.us/JPJU?clj
17:51	djanatyn	now I can just throw up a quil window and do what I would like to it
17:51	djanatyn	I should have some atom painter dude that I can throw functions to and then he'll do it on the canvas
17:51	technomancy	noncom: update-in+concat you mean?
17:51	noncom	i do like (update-in project [:aot] concat ['my-project.core 'my-project.something])
17:51	djanatyn	but I'm kind of wondering why quil doesn't support this thing already!
17:51	bbloom	dnolen: the mixins bit is the one part of react that is just kinda wrong
17:51	technomancy	noncom: sure
17:51	noncom	yeah, is the quote-syntax correct here?
17:51	technomancy	yeah
17:51	bbloom	dnolen: it's just a bad primitive unit of reusable state / behavior
17:51	bbloom	dnolen: but it plays nice w/ javascript, so it's not the end of the world
17:51	noncom	well, it does not aot them...
17:52	noncom	i spit the modified project.clj to a file just before calling uberjar and it says :aot (lein-natives-test.core jcl.ep)
17:53	noncom	those are the correct nss to aot
17:53	technomancy	noncom: in some cases a profile-merge down the line could lose your changes; if you express it in terms of merging your own profile it can be preserved
17:53	noprompt	lynaghk, cemerick: so, this cljx doohickey is pretty sweet.
17:53	technomancy	noncom: this is a really yucky downside to the way lein implements profile unmerging
17:53	noncom	umm...
17:54	technomancy	hopefully all that can go away in 3.0
17:54	noncom	djantyn: what is panel wrapper in your code?
17:54	noncom	technomancy: what can i do for now?
17:55	dnolen	bbloom: there very few things I like less these days than OOP JS
17:56	noncom	make user explicitly designate aot targets?
17:56	noprompt	dnolen: i'm teaching an introductory javascript course starting next week, trust me i'm going to more than impart that same sentiment.
17:56	dnolen	bbloom: I also don't know if I'm totally sold on this DOM rep model
17:56	bbloom	dnolen: i agree 100%, hence why I actually like react. it's functional programming in disguise
17:57	bbloom	dnolen: you mean the tree of components?
17:57	dnolen	bbloom: it seems hard to represent subtle transitions
17:57	dnolen	bbloom: a la OS X Layer stuff
17:57	technomancy	noncom: probably best to make the user specify targets, but if you want to change project.clj in a way that's compatible with profiles check out noncom: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/doc/PLUGINS.md and grep for "merge-profiles"
17:57	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, it's definitely not an ideal UI representation, but it's very close to the DOM model
17:58	dnolen	bbloom: but this is why I'm not excited about it, baked in assumptions about the underlying rep
17:58	bbloom	dnolen: generally, flatter is better. games are usually completely flat databases of world space objects
17:58	bbloom	dnolen: UIs could be that way too, but that's a more dramatic change & doesn't play nice w/ lots of other stuff
17:59	bbloom	dnolen: i'm with you on that too. i've been thinking about how to raise the abstraction bar on UI, but i think any design would take aspects of react's design for granted: partitioning of parameters & state, explicit IDs, pervasive memoization, diff-based rendering, etc
17:59	bbloom	dnolen: forcing a hierarchical structure is bad, but the DOM already does that too you
17:59	bbloom	dnolen: transitions that traverse the UI hierarchy are hard no matter what you do
17:59	noncom	technomancy: that doc i've been reading for the past couple-o-days :) in my plugin i create aot targets programmtically, but i will try making them a part of the plugin profile that user has to specify.. although that would be a mystery for the user, what are these aots
17:59	dnolen	bbloom: we should definitely look at some possible designs when we meet up
18:00	bbloom	dnolen: generally, the trick is to hoist the transitioning component either to a totally detatched layer, or to just send it to the lowest common anscestor
18:00	bbloom	dnolen: you can do the same trick in react, but it's very explicit
18:00	technomancy	noncom: oh, if they're generated namespaces then yeah; better to use merge-profiles
18:01	dnolen	bbloom: another reason I'm interested in this is I'm pretty psyched about using CLJS for OS X where the rep is not DOM
18:01	dnolen	bbloom: and iOS
18:01	dnolen	bbloom: so anything to DOM centric needs to be ditched
18:01	dnolen	s/to/too
18:01	bbloom	dnolen: i think you should be interested in it from the perspective that you can steal 80% of the design and have an absurd head start on the problem
18:01	noonian	what are peoples preffered ways for managing database migrations? I've used lobos a bit, and am looking at ragtime now but it seems like there are a lot of libs out there
18:04	technomancy	~clojars migrations
18:04	clojurebot	Huh?
18:04	technomancy	=\
18:04	technomancy	~migrations
18:04	clojurebot	Pardon?
18:04	bbloom	$clojars migrations
18:04	technomancy	dang it clojurebot
18:04	bbloom	booo
18:05	technomancy	clojurebot: clojars migrations \|are\| done with a few trivial defns: https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/blob/master/src/clojars/db/migrate.clj they don't support down-migrations or db-agnosticism, and this is a good thing
18:05	clojurebot	Roger.
18:05	technomancy	noonian: ^ I recommend this approach
18:05	bbloom	(inc technomancy) ; for lack of down-migrations & db-agnosticism
18:05	lazybot	⇒ 68
18:07	noonian	technomancy: thanks, could you explain why not having down-migrations and db-agnosticism is a good thing? I can see why down could be bad outside of a development context. is the idea just that db-agnosticism impedes transparency?
18:11	technomancy	noonian: neither down-migrations or db-agnosticism actually work on nontrivial real-world codebases
18:11	noprompt	,l
18:11	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: l in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:11	noprompt	:(
18:11	technomancy	down-migrations get added but never tested, giving you a false sense of security
18:11	dnolen	sweet I just ran CLJS on my iPad Mini via Ejecta
18:12	technomancy	"if something goes wrong it's OK; I'll just reverse the migrations" <- no you won't; they don't actually work that way
18:12	noonian	technomancy: thanks
18:13	technomancy	db-agnosticism is similar, it's incredibly difficult to avoid reliance upon implementation details in DDL since it's not remotely standardized the way regular SQL is
18:13	arohner	technomancy: though I'd dispute that even regular SQL is standardized
18:13	arohner	and the semantics certainly aren't
18:13	technomancy	if anything you want to over-specify your DB and ensure that everyone on your team is running the exact same point release of postgres or whatever
18:14	technomancy	arohner: heh; oh yeah that's its own can of worms for sure. but at least there's a token effort; with DDL there isn't even that.
18:15	callen	50 Shades of Grey Standards
18:17	bbloom	"if anything you want to over-specify your DB" <- yes. you should have to opt-in to generic behavior & you should only do so cautiously. vendor everything!
18:18	hyPiRion	if anything, we know that standards may be interpreted in many ways. Look at html, css and friends, for instance.
18:19	shriphani	hi I have a question about clj-webdriver. I have perused the API but I can't find a way to scroll. Can anyone tell me if this is supported or should I use something else ?
18:23	callen	shriphani: the same way you scroll in any other webdriver library. Execute scroll(0,pixels); in the JavaScript context.
18:26	callen	shriphani: you should rarely, if ever be scrolling manually. You should be targeting elements/content and making them visible, it'll automatically handle scrolling as necessary.
18:26	callen	shriphani: have you read the Selenium documentation?
18:27	shriphani	callen, I want to go through an item only available through infinite scroll.
18:28	shdwprince	ping
18:29	callen	shdwprince: you didn't ping anyone.
18:29	callen	shriphani: your first mistake was using infinite scroll.
18:29	shdwprince	bad
18:29	callen	shriphani: your second mistake was not adding the ability to jump by primary key in the paginator.
18:29	callen	shriphani: your third mistake was trying to test infinite scroll.
18:29	shriphani	I'm scraping a 3rd party site...
18:29	callen	shriphani: good news, you can fix it.
18:30	callen	shriphani: oh you're boned then. JS executor context hack away then.
18:30	callen	godspeed.
18:30	shriphani	said third party's site breaks if visited without js enabled.
18:30	callen	shriphani: my advice? an infinite scroll usually means AJAX.
18:30	shriphani	yeah.
18:30	callen	shriphani: AJAX means there's an API
18:30	callen	brotip: APIs are easier to scrape than infinite-scrolling HTML pages.
18:30	callen	jus' sayin'
18:31	shriphani	well the official API broke support for what I wanted.
18:31	callen	shriphani: why not watch the requests the browser is making and emulate those?
18:31	shdwprince	use insider api, be bag guy
18:32	callen	(づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ shriphani - it's going to be okay.
18:32	Apage43	chrome inspector, network tab
18:32	ucb	JAKE!
18:33	Apage43	esp. "Copy as cURL"
18:33	Apage43	which copies a curl command that duplicates that request exactly onto your clipboard
18:33	callen	Apage43: that's sexy. didn't notice that.
18:34	Raynes	I've used that before.
18:34	callen	I need to pay more attention.
18:34	Raynes	I can confirm best thing ever.
18:34	brehaut	Apage43: does that grab the cookie ajar too?
18:34	brehaut	s/ajar/jar/
18:34	Apage43	yes
18:34	brehaut	magic
18:35	Apage43	I mean, it copies it as -H 'Cookie: whatever=yeah;'
18:35	Apage43	but the cookie is captured
18:35	callen	Apage43: you're my new favorite person.
18:35	callen	Raynes: you're fired.
18:35	Raynes	noprompt: You're a monster for not going to that concert with me tomorrow.
18:35	Raynes	It's going to be glorious.
18:35	callen	Raynes: why did you not tell me this? (ಥ﹏ಥ)
18:35	Raynes	Because I'm very rarely a web developer.
18:35	Raynes	And you never ask me web dev questions.
18:36	noprompt	Raynes: :S
18:36	noprompt	i'd be down to go see some good live surf music.
18:37	Apage43	there's also "copy as HAR", which is a JSON format that describes http requests.
18:37	Apage43	if you want to consume it programatically
18:37	Raynes	noprompt: There's still time. There are $50 tickets on stubhub. It's only like a 3 hour drive from you. :P
18:38	Raynes	Make that 4 hour drive.
18:38	noprompt	Raynes: :P did i mention i'm moving? lol.
18:38	Raynes	But the concert is at 9PM. You've got plenty of time.
18:38	Raynes	Your house can wait, this is important damn it.
18:38	ucb	Raynes: what band is this?
18:38	Raynes	ucb: Panic! At The Disco.
18:40	amalloy	Apage43: i never noticed the copy as curl option. i've wasted years of my life slavishly replicating requests from there to be curl-friendly
18:40	Apage43	I don't think its always been there
18:40	ucb	Raynes: never heard of them
18:40	Apage43	yeah
18:40	Apage43	it was added in Chrome 26
18:41	Apage43	so, march of this year
18:41	amalloy	well, that explains it, i guess. until recently i was on like chrome 12
18:41	Raynes	ucb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUc_jXBD9DU and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFSIm3Zeecg
18:41	amalloy	or some other decrepit version, because i hate upgrading
18:42	ucb	Raynes: you've shown me this before! :-o
18:43	callen	amalloy: I thought Chrome automatically upgraded. Did you neuter it?
18:43	technomancy	amalloy: upgrading is the worst
18:43	amalloy	callen: i think my distro did
18:43	technomancy	they should be legally required to call it sidegrading
18:43	callen	amalloy: that'd be chromium, no?
18:43	amalloy	my linux distro
18:44	callen	...
18:44	callen	the browser would be chromium
18:44	callen	not google chrome.
18:44	Raynes	callen: Google Chrome has a PPA for chrome, bro.
18:44	callen	Raynes: that's not distro.
18:44	callen	that's a PPA.
18:44	callen	distros cannot/do not distribute Google Chrome.
18:44	callen	they distribute Chromium.
18:44	amalloy	shrug
18:44	Raynes	callen: And the PPA pipes upgrades which happen when you do apt-get upgrade...
18:44	technomancy	doesn't it depend on the distro?
18:45	callen	technomancy: I'm pretty sure no Linux distro wants to be the asshole that distributes a binary stamped by Google.
18:45	technomancy	there are a bunch of too-cool-for-dfsg derivatives that will do pretty much anything
18:47	callen	well. save for those.
18:47	Raynes	Anyways, he very clearly meant that his distro's normal upgrade process upgraded google chrome. He wasn't declaring that his distro went and got google chrome, installed it, and then started upgrading it.
18:47	Raynes	He installed a PPA I expect, and that's what a PPA is for -- third party software integrated with Ubuntu's normal software management processes.
18:47	callen	makes sense.
18:48	callen	except for the part where he never ran sudo apt-get upgrade
18:48	Raynes	How do you know?
18:48	amalloy	i don't think i very clearly meant anything
18:48	amalloy	i was like like 'for some reason i don't care about, chrome was still old'
18:48	amalloy	"like like". god. "just like", please
18:56	akurilin	MVC + clojure question: what's pattern you'd recommend for validating model maps before persisting them? Would you call a validator from the controller before the save, or would you make validation part of save?
18:56	noprompt	:(
18:56	callen	akurilin: I don't believe in auto-validate->save
18:56	noprompt	;_;
18:57	callen	akurilin: I prefer to let the controller decide when to flush, since that's specific to business logic sometimes.
18:57	callen	everything else about interacting with and transforming the data, or fetching new data will usually be in the "models"
18:57	callen	(and (validate-okay? instance spec) (save instance))
18:58	akurilin	callen, perfect, I was leaning towards that as well, but was wondering if that'd be a MVC faux pas
18:58	akurilin	callen, thank you.
18:58	callen	akurilin: people that are MVC fascists typically never actually used Smalltalk and for that matter, we're in FP land now. The rules are different.
18:59	callen	MVC, in the original form, involved prolifically stateful objects with no real specification and message passing.
18:59	callen	derive the value of the original purpose (separation of concerns) instead of slavishly obeying the forms. :)
18:59	akurilin	callen, I'd kill for a guide for MVC-with-LISP, since quite a few Railsism are no longer relevant.
19:00	noprompt	i'm a just write the fucking program fascist.
19:00	callen	akurilin: goin' on the to-do list.
19:00	callen	akurilin: thanks.
19:00	noprompt	akurilin: why would you want that?
19:00	glosoli	http://imgur.com/WPHQQ0z desperately trying to find face for that using that cyan color which is barely visible, any ideas ?
19:01	akurilin	noprompt, what specifically?
19:01	callen	akurilin: another common pattern for me is (save-if-okay instance spec) => {:id 1 :error nil}
19:01	glosoli	it should be some sort part of nrepl, can't find though
19:01	noprompt	akurilin: i guess i'm asking why is MVC so important to you?
19:01	akurilin	noprompt, it's not, it's just that I don't know any better.
19:01	noprompt	akurilin: for the record i'm not being a prick.
19:02	callen	noprompt: MVC is a pretty good "default" way to separate concerns in a lot of applications for which the concepts are relevant.
19:02	akurilin	noprompt, I'd be very happy to use a different approach as long as I can learn more about it from somewhere.
19:02	callen	presentation, logic, and persistence all to their own little happy boxes isn't a bad way to go at all.
19:02	callen	there are other ways, but anything can work as long as a design principle is involved.
19:02	noprompt	akurilin: i kind of wanted the same thing when i came to clojure from ruby.
19:03	akurilin	s/different/better for clojure/
19:03	noprompt	better is a matter of perspective.
19:03	callen	I've seen some weird patterns in my Clojure Ring apps sometimes for what could fairly be called CRUD
19:03	callen	specifically higher order functions wrapping things fronting the view-specific parts. Not dissimilar from decorators in python.
19:04	callen	I call it weird not because HOF are weird, but because it looks weird for a web dev perspective.
19:04	noprompt	i guess i don't necessarily look for ways to fit my problems to patterns.
19:04	akurilin	noprompt, do you have any alternatives to MVC in mind I could read up on?
19:04	callen	noprompt: that's not necessarily what's going on here.
19:04	callen	noprompt: people are just looking for vases for their flowers.
19:05	callen	noprompt: I'd relax, were I you and not me own self. :)
19:05	noprompt	akurilin: no. i don't think that's the "right" way to go about solving problems or building applications.
19:05	akurilin	noprompt, I feel like we're just looking for a wee bit of structure, but the goal is maximum minimalism and minimum boilerplate.
19:05	noprompt	akurilin: you should let your problem domain determine your architecture.
19:05	callen	akurilin: it's not a super clean or principled example, but you could always look at Neubite.
19:05	akurilin	noprompt, that's fair, can't argue with that.
19:06	callen	noprompt: nobody's saying it shouldn't. it's just that when you're starting empty before you know the problem, some good ways to separate fns can be nice.
19:06	noprompt	akurilin: if you decide on a "pattern" or architecture up front you're doing too much work.
19:06	sevvie	"looking for vases for their flowers" sounds like a really polite way to say "bikeshedding."
19:06	callen	akurilin: http://github.com/bitemyapp/neubite/
19:06	callen	sevvie: vases live in homes and you have to look at them daily, the same is not true for bikesheds.
19:06	callen	sevvie: are you familiar with flower arrangement?
19:07	noprompt	akurilin: the best advice i can give you is be generic.
19:07	akurilin	callen, is that a take on a ring app? Along the lines of Luminus?
19:07	callen	akurilin: it's not a "take", it's just a hybrid Luminus/Ring app.
19:07	noprompt	akurilin: for example don't start with the concept of a "model", rather start with the concept of "data".
19:07	akurilin	callen, ok.
19:07	callen	akurilin: it's a minimalist CMS with the ability to make little internal web apps.
19:07	callen	akurilin: it runs http://bitemyapp.com/
19:08	noprompt	am i making sense here? sometimes i feel like i'm just talking out of my ass.
19:08	akurilin	noprompt, that's fair. Does "model" immediately imply that you have a wrapper object for it with its own functionality rather than just a blob of data?
19:09	callen	noprompt: look at neubite.
19:09	callen	it's just functions that do things or return data.
19:09	callen	there's no frippery or architecture astronomy here.
19:10	akurilin	callen, yeah thanks for that link, I've been meaning to cherrypick Luminus or another web app for a long time, for ideas.
19:10	callen	noprompt: it's just a vase. let him get started on his flowers.
19:10	callen	akurilin: it's my test bed for Ring libraries I work on as well. You should probably eyeball my github if you do web.
19:11	akurilin	sounds good, who are you on github?
19:11	sevvie	callen: I occasionally dabble in arranging flowers.
19:11	sevvie	One of those things one does to relax.
19:11	akurilin	I love this channel, things get very zen very fast. Always puts a smile on my face :)
19:12	callen	akurilin: bitemyapp
19:12	callen	akurilin: github.com/bitemyapp/
19:13	callen	sevvie: very good. Then you get the feel of what I mean. No malice, no judgment, just a vase. :)
19:13	callen	bikeshedding implies derision where I mean none.
19:14	akurilin	callen, awesome, following you. Is your avatar from Gon?
19:15	noprompt	akurilin: OOP always made me feel unhappy. i had a lot of bad experiences with agressive OO folks and the literature generally felt like it was full of shit.
19:16	callen	akurilin: I'm not sure, I originally edited it out of a wallpaper from wallbase.cc. My "avatar" in personal life and otherwise has always been a bear of some kind and it seemed perfect. There's a non-sunglasses version out there.
19:16	callen	noprompt: relax. bad code is bad, good code is good. No label singularly and conclusively decides which is the case.
19:16	noprompt	callen: this is also valid.
19:16	noprompt	callen: like it said i just had a bad experience with the whole thing.
19:17	rhg135	hello, quick ?, any idea why '(take 5 (shuffle (lazy-seq (concat (repeat true) (repeat false)))))' times out on lazybot?
19:17	rhg135	it appears somethings not lazy
19:17	callen	noprompt: don't project. You're among friends. It's okay.
19:18	bbloom	rhg135: shuffle is eager
19:18	bbloom	,(shuffle (range 5))
19:18	clojurebot	[2 3 0 1 4]
19:18	rhg135	oh
19:18	bbloom	quite clearly returns a vector & not a seq
19:19	rhg135	ok
19:19	rhg135	forgot lol
19:19	noprompt	callen: yes. everything i say is delivered in a relaxed tone.
19:19	TEttinger	,(shuffle (take 5 (lazy-seq (concat (repeat true) (repeat false)))))
19:19	TEttinger	nope, is concat eager too?
19:19	clojurebot	[true true true true true]
19:19	rhg135	yup
19:20	bbloom	concat is lazy
19:20	rhg135	well sorta
19:20	callen	noprompt: my point was more to stop hijacking akurilin :)
19:20	rhg135	it evals the first 3 args i think
19:20	TEttinger	oh, right. darnit
19:20	TEttinger	take 5 will just get...
19:20	bbloom	rhg135: more generally, shuffling a collection of unknown size doesn't make sense at all really
19:21	rhg135	yup
19:21	bbloom	rhg135: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservoir_sampling
19:21	hyPiRion	TEttinger: probably more like ##(repeatedly #(rand-nth [true false]))
19:21	lazybot	java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
19:21	rhg135	ik now
19:21	hyPiRion	ops.
19:21	hyPiRion	,(repeatedly 5 #(rand-nth [true false]))
19:21	clojurebot	(true true false false true)
19:21	IamDrowsy	concating 2 infinite seqs doesn't make any sense either
19:21	TEttinger	yeah was just going to rewrite it with repeatedly
19:21	noprompt	akurilin: you're doing a good thing by bringing up these topics here though.
19:22	callen	maybe. I'd like to spend less time hating some acronyms and loving others.
19:22	callen	and instead talk about code.
19:22	rhg135	thx
19:22	TEttinger	I want to code a puppy
19:22	callen	TEttinger: capital idea.
19:22	rhg135	ill try it on my bot
19:23	noprompt	callen: right.
19:23	justin_smith	to get a random element you can take probabilities that start with 1/n, then 1/(n-1) ... until the last element has 1/1 chance of being chosen if you get that far; but with an infinite list that math makes no sense
19:23	noprompt	callen: but we should heckle people, no?
19:24	TEttinger	Partial Uniform Prototypical Programming Y-combinator
19:24	sevvie	This is a really great channel to watch.
19:24	noprompt	has anyone done cowsay in clojure? i want to do cowsay in clojure.
19:24	noprompt	loller.
19:24	hyPiRion	`lein shell cowsay moo`
19:25	rhg135	i used '(shuffle (concat (take 40 (repeat true)) (take 20 (repeat false))))'
19:25	hyPiRion	not cowsay in Clojure, but gets the job done
19:25	rhg135	any better way?
19:25	noprompt	:P
19:25	TEttinger	rhg135, yeah
19:25	TEttinger	wait
19:25	hyPiRion	rhg135: (shuffle (concat (repeat 40 true) (repeat 20 false)))
19:25	TEttinger	do you always want 40 true, 20 false?
19:25	akurilin	noprompt, thanks, appreciate it. With clj I often feel like I'm doing way more work than I should be, and you guys are always gracious enough to show a few options I have.
19:26	rhg135	nope
19:26	noprompt	(take 40 (repeatedly #(rand-nth [true false])))
19:26	TEttinger	(take 40 (repeatedly #(rand-nth [true true false]))) ;; to weight true more heavily
19:26	justin_smith	(repeatedly #(rand-nth [true true false])) to preserve the probabilities
19:26	rhg135	well i want a fixed ratio
19:26	justin_smith	jynx
19:27	rhg135	its for rusian roulette
19:27	rhg135	for my bot
19:27	noprompt	with real guns?
19:27	TEttinger	bots with guns
19:27	rhg135	i hope not
19:27	TEttinger	never gonna happen, not in a million splat
19:27	noprompt	oh hey, guns is here. :)
19:28	guns	locked and loaded
19:28	Raynes	http://www.agorabooth.com/assets/product_images/product_lib/38000-38999/38022.jpg flutterbot.
19:28	hyPiRion	well, if you only want to use a ratio, then I'd suggest the following
19:28	rhg135	yup
19:29	TEttinger	rhg135, so really, you want randomized order, not random individual placement chance of bullet or not/
19:29	noprompt	guns: i've finally made those improvements to frak. i'm just sorting out the command line nonsense on the same branch. bit of a mistake that was.
19:29	rhg135	yup TEttinger
19:30	hyPiRion	(defn ratio-true [p] (< (rand) p)), then do (repeatedly 40 #(ratio-true the-probability))
19:30	noprompt	guns: should be epic though. :)
19:30	guns	noprompt: That's awesome. I'm in no hurry. I saw you were trying to create a CLJS CLI wrapper; I've always wondered about that. How do you find it?
19:32	rhg135	its lines 2-4 of this https://raw.github.com/rhg/flutterbot/f5c9164d4ec28df428811d1c5acdc17cc2bc427c/src/lazybot/plugins/roulette.clj
19:32	TEttinger	rhg135, ohhhh
19:32	TEttinger	that does what it should do
19:33	TEttinger	the alternatives will not preserve a sane number of bullets every time
19:33	rhg135	ok
19:33	rhg135	i thought so
19:33	rhg135	just checking :D
19:34	TEttinger	I think we thought you were just using fixed numbers for placeholders, so you didn't have to define size and such in each message to eval with the bot
19:35	TEttinger	or to generate ratios
19:35	rhg135	no, the func takes args
19:35	noprompt	guns: this article http://mmcgrana.github.io/2011/09/clojurescript-nodejs.html
19:35	amalloy	incidentally, rhg135, you can give links like https://github.com/rhg/flutterbot/blob/f5c9164d4ec28df428811d1c5acdc17cc2bc427c/src/lazybot/plugins/roulette.clj#L4-L6 and not have to specify the line numbers "out of band"
19:35	noprompt	guns: i actually wanted to use your option parser though.
19:35	rhg135	now someone wants a pull loop
19:36	rhg135	thx amalloy
19:36	guns	noprompt: doesn't work in CLJS?
19:36	guns	I should fix that then!
19:36	rhg135	coding time
19:36	noprompt	guns: yes! it'd be a strong selling point.
19:37	TEttinger	rhg135, if you want, I can give you some other, non-useful plugins I wrote for my lazybot
19:37	TEttinger	like quote db stuf
19:37	technomancy	wow, I forgot cljs existed in 2011
19:37	callen	technomancy: what?
19:37	guns	noprompt: It only uses a couple of functions from clojure.string; I'll ping you when I look into it
19:38	technomancy	callen: I think of it as a recent development; 2011 feels like a long time ago
19:38	rhg135	ya, TEttinger
19:38	noprompt	guns: right. i noticed that. i think the only thing cljs was complaing about was the AssertionErrors.
19:38	callen	technomancy: I parsed it differently. woops. Yeah I suppose it does.
19:38	guns	noprompt: ooohh, that's right.
19:40	noprompt	guns: i'm watching the repo now. :)
19:41	guns	noprompt: lol, okay. I'll push a change tonight
19:41	noprompt	guns: sweet. i'll look out for it!
19:44	callen	guns: who are you on github?
19:45	guns	callen: github.com/guns
19:46	callen	oh good, a new goal.
19:46	TEttinger3	rhg135: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/6275383#file-last-clj-L166 change the highlighted line to match command prefixes, it also needs a special version of clucy for full-text search if you want that
19:47	TEttinger3	...clucy needs lucene, and you might not want the hassle
19:47	callen	TEttinger3: hassle how?
19:48	TEttinger3	I seem to recall the java side needed config
19:48	callen	TEttinger3: would a lightweight zero-config in-memory lucene index suffice?
19:48	TEttinger3	might be wrong
19:48	TEttinger3	I think so?
19:48	callen	k, adding to the to-do list.
19:48	TEttinger3	no don't worry about it
19:48	clojurebot	No entiendo
19:49	TEttinger3	it works fine now that it's setup
19:49	callen	TEttinger3: it's not about you :)
19:49	TEttinger3	it never is ;.;
19:49	callen	TEttinger3: hahaha. aww. :) no it's just about being able to say, "ya, we got that" to coworkers.
19:49	TEttinger3	haha nice
19:50	callen	(Python has Whoosh, if you know what I mean)
19:50	TEttinger3	callen, it blows?
19:51	pmonks	:-D
19:51	clojurebot	I don't understand.
19:51	callen	TEttinger3: LOL
19:51	callen	jesus lol.
19:57	callen	TEttinger3: point being though, Whoosh is fairly lightweight and easy to use for Python users even if it isn't a very good idea.
19:57	rhg135	TEttinger, why?
19:57	callen	Making doing the "right thing" easy is better.
19:58	TEttinger	rhg135, just making a pun on "has whoosh"
19:58	rhg135	i meant the link
19:58	TEttinger	oh
19:59	TEttinger	rhg135, so you can do stuff like `last-with users
19:59	TEttinger	and quotegrab uses some of that
19:59	rhg135	i dont understand
20:00	TEttinger	so, those are plugins for lazybot. one lets you fetch the last thing said matching some parameter, one lets you grab that line and save it for getting quotes or random quotes
20:00	TEttinger	like
20:01	TEttinger	`grab TEttinger
20:01	TEttinger	doesn't have that bot here
20:01	TEttinger	then `quote TEttinger would be "<TEttinger> like"
20:02	rhg135	ohhhhhhhhhhhh
20:02	TEttinger	it's a common function of supybot based IRC bots, lazybot doesn't have it by default
20:02	rhg135	hmm
20:02	rhg135	i'll add it
20:04	rhg135	TEttinger, prefix or command-prefix
20:04	TEttinger	whatever the bot gets commands from, like &load-pistol
20:04	TEttinger	not the eval prefix
20:04	TEttinger	there should be only one dependency change, but I have no idea if lucene needs additional setup. if it does, remove all the -with functions and commands from last.clj , and remove grabwith, and you can take out the lucene dep.
20:04	rhg135	so @
20:05	TEttinger	yeah, probably
20:06	TEttinger	I've never had anyone else try to run this code, so no guarantees. I've been maintaining this set of plugins for about a year though
20:07	rhg135	set?
20:09	TEttinger	yeah, I actually have a few totally useless plugins I customized or made. none work very well except for quote, which is used the most anyway
20:10	rhg135	so leucene right?
20:10	TEttinger	should be picked up by lein deps
20:10	TEttinger	no idea if it will be
20:10	TEttinger	lucene also
20:11	rhg135	what's the data, never used it
20:11	rhg135	im newish to clj
20:11	TEttinger	the data will be added with every message
20:12	rhg135	i meant the dep info
20:12	patchwork	Using lein templates, how do I force lein to use the latest version of my template?
20:12	patchwork	I have released a new template jar on clojars, but lein still pulls in the previous version
20:12	TEttinger	it should be at the bottom in project.clj , same gist
20:12	patchwork	Or rather, lein keeps using the old version and doesn't search for the new version on clojars
20:12	rhg135	ah
20:12	rhg135	thx
20:13	TEttinger	there should be 2 files that go in plugins
20:13	TEttinger	and a line to put in project.clj's dependencies section
20:13	TEttinger	don't add :dependencies twice, yeah
20:13	hyPiRion	patchwork: hm, can you run `lein -U new my-template library-name`?
20:13	rhg135	ok
20:15	hyPiRion	I'd either guess you're working with a snapshot or that you've forgotten to promote the template
20:17	patchwork	hyPiRion: lein -U new my-template library-name gives the same results
20:17	patchwork	It is still using the template from the previous version
20:17	patchwork	no snapshot
20:17	patchwork	The previous version is 0.1.1
20:17	patchwork	I have released 0.1.2
20:17	hyPiRion	patchwork: hm, have you promoted it on clojars?
20:18	patchwork	it is still generating the 0.1.1 template
20:18	patchwork	hyPiRion: promoted? Hmm… not sure
20:18	patchwork	Is this a new clojars feature?
20:18	patchwork	I'll look it up
20:19	patchwork	hyPiRion: Ah, whoa
20:19	patchwork	You mean signing with GPG?
20:20	technomancy	promotion shouldn't matter
20:20	technomancy	clients are probably caching the old release. weird that -U doesn't force it to re-check though
20:23	patchwork	technomancy: Any leads? The only thing I can do to get it to work is to remove those jars from my local .m2 repo
20:24	technomancy	patchwork: what if you put :offline? true in the user profile? just for debugging's sake
20:27	patchwork	technomancy: Same deal
20:28	rhg135	in quote.clj i get i have no quotes ... and last causes the compiler to bitch about repeat being redifined
20:29	jtoy	how do I go about calling a function that has been passed to me in an arg?
20:29	technomancy	patchwork: oops; not :offline? true; I meant :update :always
20:30	hyPiRion	technomancy: I thought -U merged in a profile with that option, no?
20:30	technomancy	hyPiRion: I thought so too, but it's not working
20:30	hyPiRion	hm
20:33	patchwork	technomancy: Still not working!
20:33	patchwork	lein version says 2.3.1
20:34	technomancy	patchwork: ok; in that case it must be a bug in aether
20:34	jtoy	why doesnt this print 5 for every line? https://www.refheap.com/17775
20:34	jtoy	also is it possible to pass in a function that can access the values inside of doseq? like how can I pass something like (testf (println u)) ?
20:35	callen	jtoy: where's your book?
20:35	Raynes	Because arguments get evaluated before being passed to functions.
20:35	Raynes	You're getting the value of (println 5), not the code.
20:36	jtoy	so can I modify this to do it then?
20:36	rhg135	#()
20:36	Raynes	I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish.
20:37	Raynes	You can do #(println 5) and then in testf do (f), I guess.
20:37	patchwork	technomancy: Ah! okay, I will tell people to remove their .m2 in the meantime
20:38	hyPiRion	yay, aether. The magic box where you usually get what you want back.
20:38	oneness_	jtoy: do 1. #(println 5) 2. enclose f within ().
20:38	patchwork	I looked at the aether code, but I'm not sure where to start : /
20:38	jtoy	cool, that does work
20:39	technomancy	patchwork: you and me both =\
20:39	jtoy	is it possible to access values in the clojure though? as in #(println u)
20:39	jtoy	closure i mean
20:39	hyPiRion	we're three, there's a reason I call it a magic box
20:40	rhg135	TEttinger, one q about quote, how do you remove a quote?
20:42	TEttinger	rhg135: you don't! that's the one semi-intentionally missing feature
20:42	rhg135	oh darn
20:43	jtoy	i guess you cant
20:43	rhg135	i added one to test
20:43	TEttinger	you can add the feature by using congomongo's remove stuff
20:43	rhg135	ok
20:44	rhg135	ive never used it tho
20:44	TEttinger	the trick will be finding the right quote to delete
20:44	bja	specljs is a lot better at finding my .cljs tests than my .clj tests....
20:45	bja	fml
20:46	TEttinger	like, what would you tell it, @delete-quote-from TEttinger 1? that could work, except it doesn't give an index yet (it probably could)
20:46	rhg135	ok implemting
20:48	TEttinger	also, you may want to just use the dump function (@superbarf , it does more than spit, it barfs) to see all the quotes and figure out if it deleted them
21:18	rhg135	TEttinger, i added (defn erase-quote [server i] (destroy! :quote {:_id i} :where {:server server})) but nope
21:19	TEttinger	I don't know if it gives them _id
21:19	rhg135	it does
21:20	rhg135	superbarf is modded to show em
21:22	callen	why...are you dereferencing an fn?
22:07	seancorfield	callen: I updated FW/1 to support Selmer - very nice... I may deprecate Enlive support at some point
23:36	matthavener	anyone familiar with the pedestal tutorial? i'm following it, and i don't understand why there are two nested (let) exprs in the second code block: https://github.com/pedestal/app-tutorial/wiki/Connecting-to-the-Service
23:42	ambrosebs	matthavener: probably for emphasis or a typo.
23:45	[Neurotic]	newb Clojurescript question: Trying to work out how to do feature detection - specifically work out what version of webRTC getUserMedia is supported. A variation on https://github.com/webRTC/webrtc.io-client/blob/master/lib/webrtc.io.js#L7 ... I've no idea how to do this in clojurescript - if someone could point me in the right direction, that would be
23:45	[Neurotic]	awesome
23:45	matthavener	ambrosebs: makes sense, thanks! i wasn't sure if there was some special behavior between (let [a b c d] ...) and (let [a b] (let [c d] ...))
23:46	ambrosebs	matthavener: zero.
23:52	TEttinger	[Neurotic], never heard of webRTC over here.
23:53	qz	when i run "lein repl" i get "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var null/null is unbound. (form-init6874200733089555789.clj:1)". but "lein run" works just fine.. what could it be?
23:55	TEttinger	qz: sounds like you're calling a static method on something that only exists after -main is called?
23:55	[Neurotic]	TEttinger: for all intents and purposes of the question - I'm just looking for the function
23:55	TEttinger	fair enough.
23:56	qz	TEttinger: hrm.. there are no vars, so how can something exist only after -main is called?
23:57	TEttinger	qs, def and defn create vars
23:57	TEttinger	qz*
23:57	TEttinger	what's really weird is it's line 1
23:58	dnolen	[Neurotic]: you can check for top level things with exists?. (or (.-bar foo) (.-baz foo) ...) otherwise works too
23:59	dnolen	[Neurotic]: Google Closure sometimes will mangle, in those cases you can use (get js/foo "bar")
23:59	dnolen	er (aget js/foo "bar")
23:59	[Neurotic]	dnolen: aaah. I was trying aget with a symbol. Lemme try that then