#clojure – 2013-08-15

2013-08-15

01:17	ed_g	is it possible to pass a dynamic variable into an agent's context?
01:17	technomancy	ed_g: you can send it a bound-fn
01:20	ed_g	does that mean send-off a lambda which has a copy of the dynamic variable?
01:20	ztellman	ed_g: I'm pretty sure that's the default behavior
01:24	technomancy	oh yeah; I'm thinking of the 1.2 behaviour
01:24	callen	other than Incanter, what's a respectable analogue to NumPy for clojure? Ideally equally as performant or better.
01:25	callen	I'm aware of ztellman's mad scientist oeurve although I can't be sure if any of it is applicable.
01:25	ztellman	core.matrix seems promising
01:25	ztellman	not sure how completely realized it is
01:25	callen	ztellman: thanks :)
03:34	H4ns	how do i synchronously access the body of a request in a POST handler in http-kit? the documentation says it conforms to the ring spec, but i'm lost in the documentation.
03:37	H4ns	seems that i need to have a json middleware like ring-json
04:55	H4ns	is there a function that gives me a count of elements in a seq that satisfy some predicate (i.e. count-if)?
04:56	Raynes	(count (filter ...))
04:56	TEttinger	,(count (filter pos? ["darn you" "Raynes" 11 -1]))
04:56	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
04:57	Raynes	H4ns: This won't make two passes because filter returns a lazy seq.
04:58	H4ns	Raynes: ah, nice. thanks!
05:27	H4ns	what's an idiomatic way to call a function for number of elements from a seq and return the results? (the-fn + [1 2 3 4]) => (3 7)
05:27	supersym	reduce
05:28	H4ns	thanks
05:29	H4ns	erm, well, reduce always takes one element. i'll probably have to use group
05:31	supersym	,(map #(reduce + %) (partition 2 [1 2 3 4 5]))
05:31	clojurebot	(3 7)
05:31	H4ns	ah, partition! thanks!
05:31	supersym	:)
05:36	TEttinger	H4ns, reduce is fantastically flexible. you can see some things on clojuredocs that use reduce with a function that takes a vector and an item from the collection you pass it... really potent stuff
05:37	TEttinger	err, it was somewhere else, but http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/reduce
05:42	TEttinger	ah, it may have been here http://www.learningclojure.com/2010/08/reduce-not-scary.html
05:52	supersym	TEttinger: yeah... I seemed to keep getting confused by it first
05:53	supersym	this is my first lisp :P
05:53	TEttinger	me too
05:53	TEttinger	and it's the way I think now
05:53	TEttinger	maybe always has been
05:53	supersym	yeah once you get it you get it :P
05:53	TEttinger	I remember programming in lua with tons of functions getting passed around, before I knew clojure
05:54	TEttinger	lisp is just... cleaner
05:54	supersym	god... I used to have awesome as my wm before xmonad
05:54	TEttinger	lua's great though
05:54	supersym	I remember it exceptionally well for killing my desktop on the slightest typo
05:54	supersym	yeah
05:55	supersym	I know.... really powerful embedded scripting/extensions using tables
05:56	TEttinger	luajit is a masterpiece of compiler tech and easy to use. there was a project called Vortex to add lisp and F# features to lua and have it compile to LuaJIT dialect lua
05:56	supersym	oh ok :)
05:57	supersym	I never really tried F#, once I reached that stage in my visual studio adventures, I decided to dump windows for linux
05:57	TEttinger	I haven't seen much difference in my productivity on windows or linux
05:57	TEttinger	http://quaker66.github.io/vortex/
05:58	TEttinger	but a significant amount of my work is with windows-only multimedia stuff
05:59	supersym	well productivity, maybe, I was pretty damn at home in VS2010 and that was a really nice (12.000 dollar) tool
05:59	supersym	but I was tired of all the bloat, the background automated enabling of services, the malware
06:01	supersym	tbh tho: stuff like git etc isn't the same in windows
06:01	supersym	and powershell really sucks once you mastered zsh :)
06:06	arcatan	ugh. i'm not slacking off, i'm waiting for git to checkout my branch on windows.
06:58	H4ns	is there a way to limit the amount of data that nrepl prints? i'm dealing with large structures which take too long to print in emacs.
07:00	hugod	H4ns: print-length might help
07:01	H4ns	hugod: thanks, that was precisely what i wanted to have :)
07:06	H4ns	erm, only that it does not work :(
08:00	H4ns	is defstruct gone from clojure? i have stuart halloway's book from 2009 which mentions it, but i can't see it on the cheat sheet.
08:04	jkkramer	H4ns: it's deprecated in favor of defrecord
08:08	H4ns	jkkramer: and i should not be scared by the "alpha" label that it has?
08:09	shafire	Hi
08:09	shafire	Can I prove clojure programs?
08:10	jkkramer	H4ns: no need to be scared. it's not going anywhere
08:14	Anderkent[away]	H4ns: it's not going anywhere but it might not work perfectly with dynamic development (lots of code reloading in a repl tends to mess with compiled types like records/protocols)
08:14	H4ns	okay, i guess i'll just stick with maps and be done with it.
08:14	jkkramer	it's often a good idea to put your records and protocols in their own ns to avoid such issues
08:15	jkkramer	yeah, maps are good unless you have a specific need for records
08:30	hugod	H4ns: looks like nrepl isn't printing the result within the session bindings - possibly a bug in nrepl
08:41	hugod	H4ns: (set! print-length 10) should work
08:42	hugod	there is also print-level, which depending on your data structure, could help
08:42	ro_st	hugod: are you aware of any way to stop the pprinter from including commas in its output?
08:42	ro_st	so annoying when using CuCxCe in emacs and getting commas back
08:42	hugod	ro_st: not that I am aware of
08:42	ro_st	also, an aside: thanks for crtierium! awesome lib
08:43	ro_st	criterium, too -grin-
08:43	hugod	glad you find it useful
08:43	H4ns	hugod: that seems to work, thanks! i don't quite know what stopped it from working when i tried before.
08:45	hugod	H4ns: it seems a bit subtle - using `binding` of course doesn't work to set it, as the printing is done outside of the scope of the `binding` form, and alter-var-root doesn't work, as it has a thread-local value, which is what set! modifies
08:47	H4ns	hugod: is there a good place to put such initialization so that it modifies the right values for the nrepl repl, for all projects?
08:49	Anderkent	i think if you have a file "user.clj" on your classpath it will be executed whenever your repl starts
08:49	Anderkent	but if you only want it for repls started by your editor I think the editor must do the work
08:50	H4ns	Anderkent: i see, thanks.
08:50	hugod	H4ns: There is also the :init option you should be able to set in your leiningen user profile https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L148
08:50	`cbp	H4ns: you can set :global-vars on your project.clj
08:51	hugod	`cbp: not sure that will work with thread locally bound vars, but worth a try
08:53	tcrayford	is there a decent clojure testing library with completely parallel testing?
08:53	tcrayford	I realized recently that literally none of my tests touch any shared globabl resources anymore, so I'd like to run everything in parallel for performance
08:54	tcrayford	(alternatively if there's a clojure.test plugin that does parallel testing, that'd be fine too)
09:10	hugod	`cbp, H4ns: :global-vars seems to do the job nicely
09:12	H4ns	hugod/`cbp: thanks, done :)
09:15	hugod	ro_st: you could define your own print-method for IPersistentMap that called a modified print-map
09:38	bdesham	I'm trying to generate a matrix where the i,j element is the result of (f i j). Is there a more idiomatic way than <https://gist.github.com/bdesham/6240709>?
09:39	ro_st	,(map + [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
09:39	clojurebot	(5 7 9)
09:41	chouser	bdesham: that's pretty common. See also clojure.math.combinatorics/cartesian-product
09:42	bdesham	chouser: ok, thanks
09:48	ro_st	to call a js method in the global scope from cljs would be (.it js/window) right?
09:49	ro_st	ne'ermind.
09:56	gvickers	I am working on a project that requires the ability to dynamically load jars and execute them in their own thread. Conceptually, I am having a hard time figuring out the best way to load the namespace and call the functions. Anyone work on something similiar?
09:57	chouser	gvickers: dynamically loading jars is rather a pain. Generally it means manipulating the Java classpath. You might look at pomegranate
10:02	mdrogalis	gvickers & chouser: I can second that it's quite a headache.
10:04	pandeiro	anybody know if lein is broken for glibc 2.18?
10:04	pandeiro	http://sprunge.us/SCOa
10:04	shafire	Can I prove clojure programs on correctness? (mh, how to say that)
10:04	ro_st	like you would with Haskell?
10:05	ro_st	i don't think so, because Clojure isn't a pure language
10:17	pandeiro	k my problem is not lein-specific; having to rebuild openjdk due to a gcc/glibc upgrade
10:18	nDuff	shafire: ...only if you're willing to make a bunch of assumptions. You can certainly have a subset of the program that uses only pure functions, and use formal reasoning around that.
10:19	H4ns	how can i create a map from a & rest parameter? i want to merge any extra keyword arguments supplied to a function with another map.
10:19	H4ns	(into map rest) gives me IllegalArgumentException Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword clojure.lang.RT.seqFrom
10:19	mdrogalis	H4ns: Can I see an example of input/output that you want?
10:20	fredyr	,(merge {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} {:b 9 :d 4})
10:20	clojurebot	{:d 4, :a 1, :c 3, :b 9}
10:20	H4ns	,(let [[& rest] [:a 1 :b 2]] (into {} rest))
10:20	chouser	H4ns: (into map (apply array-map rest))
10:20	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword>
10:20	fredyr	H4ns: merge might do the trick?
10:20	shafire	nDuff: ro_st: thanks
10:21	H4ns	chouser: thanks!
10:21	mdrogalis	,(apply hash-map [:a 1 :b 2])
10:21	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
10:21	mdrogalis	That sort of thing?
10:22	H4ns	right
10:22	chouser	the problem was that into turns its second arg (rest) into a seq and calls conj on each
10:22	chouser	So you were getting (conj map some-key) and then (conj map some-val), etc.
10:23	chouser	but conj on a map requires a key-value pair, that is a mapentry or 2-element vector
10:23	chouser	hence the error
10:23	H4ns	ok. probably requires some more practice to deduce that from the message :)
10:25	chouser	Well, the error message told you it wanted a seqable (ISeq) but you were giving it a keyword
10:26	H4ns	i'm not saying that the message is bad, i'm just too inexperienced to draw the right conclusions from it.
10:27	Foxboron	H4ns: the biggest challange IMO is the clojure errors. Once you get over that, it's is not that bad
10:27	H4ns	Foxboron: coming from common lisp, i find the stack traces a bit lacking :)
10:28	Foxboron	H4ns: go blame java :3
10:28	H4ns	Foxboron: but there is a lot good in exchange, so i'm not complaining.
10:32	chouser	if you looked at the trace you'd see it was conj complaining about that.
10:32	chouser	So yes, I agree the errors could be a lot better. Also, the errors are currently quite useful if you learn how to use them.
10:34	Foxboron	chouser: yeah, as i said. It is a little learning curve. Not quite there myself
10:37	mdrogalis	Eeek. Why are conferences so expensive?
10:38	mdrogalis	Not even programming-related. Just in general, for any field.
10:38	ro_st	ask puredanger. he should know :-)
10:38	Ember-	because those conferences need to cover their expenses?
10:39	mdrogalis	It's naive, but I'll ask it anyway. Aside from venue, what are their expenses?
10:40	tbaldrid_	mdrogalis: and remember, these are fairly small conferences ~350 people, I'd imagine they'd get cheaper if the numbers got higher
10:40	nDuff	mdrogalis: venue is the really, really big one -- but there's also speakers.
10:40	chouser	mdrogalis: I think the venue and food (even snacks) are more expensive than you might think. Then they also cover travel and lodging for the speakers, who are otherwise donating their time to produce the talks.
10:40	ro_st	catering. some confs pay a stipend to speakers. not sure what goes into getting discounted hotels either
10:40	nDuff	mdrogalis: ...venues are more expensive than you'd think, though. They charge through the nose for things like box lunches, coffee, &c.
10:41	mdrogalis	Heh, I had no idea.
10:41	mdrogalis	Yeah, I just noticed it's consistently really expensive across a few different engineering and academic fields.
10:41	chouser	The conj and strange loop don't pay the speakers beyond travel and lodging. (except maybe the keynote speakers? not sure about them)
10:46	Mudge	hello
10:53	NiKo`	hi people
10:53	NiKo`	trying to use leiningen on osx but it's painfully slow
10:53	NiKo`	google doesn't bring much help about this :/
10:54	NiKo`	I'm using stock jvm provided by osx and a fresh installation of lein through brew
10:54	NiKo`	hints?
10:55	NiKo`	(slow == lein help 46,84s user 1,73s system 262% cpu 18,517 total)
10:57	timvisher	so repl development may have finally hit me last night as far as why anyone would do it. it's the same reason one might use a shell over `M-!` and it's ilk in that you have automatic records of the development of your function as it grows and if you make a mistake you just go back a definition and start again without having to muck about with undo/redo.
10:57	timvisher	now i don't think it would be too hard to have every form i send to the repl via `C-x C-e` or it's ilk be also displayed in the repl. i feel like someone was already doing work along these lines though. is that the case?
10:58	Rubix	is there a dead-simple way to ramrod a pojo into a clojure map such that each key is a string representation of the declared data member ?
10:59	timvisher	Rubi: I think you're thinking of http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/bean
10:59	timvisher	?
10:59	timvisher	Rubix: ^^
10:59	timvisher	with a bit of help if you really want the string keys
11:00	Rubix	timvisher: that would be exactly what I want
11:00	Rubix	oh, snap, is that my n00b showing?
11:00	timvisher	also note https://github.com/clojure/java.data
11:00	timvisher
11:01	`cbp`	I had to google pojo
11:01	Rubix	cbp: it sounds dirty to me
11:01	`cbp	it sounds like chicken in spanish
11:02	timvisher	`cbp`: i take you're not from a jvm background? or has it just been that blissfully long since you've been paid to write Java? :)
11:02	Rubix	"spanish chicken" could be dirty too
11:04	`cbp	timvisher: java was actually my first language but i've never been paid for writing it. I'm mostly a php guy :(. I do get paid to write clojure though in a way.
11:04	timvisher	`cbp: that's awesome. i had that for about 11 months. it twas a blissful time. :)
11:05	timvisher	not the php part. i'm enough a snob i suppose to turn my nose up that
11:05	timvisher	although i have been paid to write it. lol
11:06	jtoy	hi chunfeng
11:06	chunfeng	hi
11:14	mdrogalis	jtoy: Everytime I see you on IRC, I think "Man I should read that neuroscience book he recommended" Someday it will happen.
11:16	jtoy	mdrogalis: which one?, i've read and recommend a bunch :)
11:16	mdrogalis	jtoy: I'll look it up in my favorited tweets when the time is right. Can't even remember, ha.
11:17	pandeiro	do i need to install elasticsearch manually to use the http api with elastisch? anybody know?
11:19	schmir	pandeiro: I'm also using elastisch with elasticsearch. but I don't quite understand your question.
11:20	pandeiro	schmir: i am just running thru the getting started guide but it's not clear if elastisch installs elasticsearch or not
11:20	GeneralMaximus	how does one get rid of those autocomplete frames that Emacs pops up at the bottom of the screen?
11:20	schmir	pandeiro: elastisch does not install elasticsearch
11:20	pandeiro	and when i try to run the initial examples, i get a Connection refused, so i assume the server is not running
11:22	schmir	pandeiro: right. you need to start an elasticsearch instance. but that's quite easy
11:24	pandeiro	schmir: yeah almost got it
11:30	pandeiro	huh, doesn't seem to be running
11:31	sharms	I have a failing test which I would like to take a look at in a repl
11:31	sharms	do I just do 'lein repl' then paste it all in, or is there a shortcut to have it load the same code it would load during 'lein test'
11:34	supersym	http://richhickey.github.io/clojure/clojure.test-api.html#clojure.test/run-tests
11:34	supersym	@sharms
11:35	bbloom	hmm what's that clojurebot prompt?
11:35	bbloom	~github
11:35	clojurebot	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/tree/master
11:35	bbloom	~richhickey
11:35	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
11:36	bbloom	~github
11:36	clojurebot	github is http://github.com/clojure/clojure
11:36	bbloom	clearly that one
11:36	supersym	bbloom: I wanted to say a thank-you for backtick...having a blast learning all about quoting :)
11:37	bbloom	supersym: you're welcome! glad you like it
11:40	`cbp	GeneralMaximus: I think it doesnt do that if there's _something_ after what you're autocompleting. Like a newline
11:41	ambrosebs	type checking DOM manipulations with core.typed https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/blob/master/src/test/cljs/cljs/core/typed/test/dom.cljs
11:42	GeneralMaximus	`cbp: it is usually very intelligent. e.g, if i type "reduc" and hit tab, it pops up a frame with everything starting with those letters. if i go back and delete those letters, it hides the frame. but i have been stuck with that frame on several occasions.
11:42	GeneralMaximus	`cbp: in that case, i have to switch focus to that frame, delete it, and come back to the frame i was in
11:43	GeneralMaximus	(or is it called a window? sorry, my memory of Emacs terminology is sketchy.)
11:45	`cbp	GeneralMaximus: sorry i misunderstood your question. My autocomplete shows the completions automatically but sometimes it inserts like 20 newlines at the end of the file (or nrepl buffer) but doesnt seem to do that when theres something after what it's autocompleting. You can hide the completions with C-g
11:46	GeneralMaximus	`cbp: when i do C-g, it just beeps and says "Quit" in the minibuffer. doesn't actually close the window.
11:46	GeneralMaximus	`cbp: putting a space after what it's completing does get rid of the window, thought.
11:46	GeneralMaximus	*though
11:47	`cbp	GeneralMaximus: you can try looking at other people's autocomplete configuration. Emacs live has a good default for one
11:48	GeneralMaximus	`cbp: i will do that. thanks.
11:53	supersym	huh... what is this tho, found a macro with final argument [s s′] but the quote isn't a backtick or normal quote
11:54	supersym	as in: (list 'defmacro s′ (str s) ... but here in irc it shows as a regular quote, hmmm. Anyone know what it does, the suffix quoting?
11:56	mtp	it shows up as a unicode PRIME
11:56	mtp	for me
11:56	mtp	codepoint #x2032
11:56	supersym	thnx
11:57	`cbp	´
11:57	`cbp	:-O
11:57	learner__	hi, in Clojure when on REPL, how can I see all global variables and their values (like warn-on-reflection) ? thanks for your time
11:57	supersym	yeah I don't think my keyboard has it
11:59	supersym	ah, the same sign as in minutes, seconds etc... right now I remember thats a different one
12:01	`cbp	learner__: I guess you could use something like (clojure.repl/apropos #"\.\*")
12:02	`cbp	learner__: If you meant dynamic vars because otherwise every var is global.
12:03	learner__	`cbp: Thanks. I want to know the every single global variable and it's value
12:04	seangrove	Is storing code in database normal? I remember someone doing something like that in php with eval, and thinking it seemed an abomination, but maybe I'm just not open-minded enough.
12:04	supersym	seangrove: I don't find it normal
12:05	supersym	though I see floating around sometimes, I've never found it a particularly attractive idea
12:05	supersym	anyway, clojure code=data, often you find yourself not needed a database at all
12:06	dnolen	bhauman: btw, that partition thing from yesterday looked good :)
12:07	dnolen	bhauman: I don't know if you saw but I said I'd be very surprised if making tons of channels and wiring them together was a performance problem.
12:08	bhauman	dnolen: the partition thing is working great cleans so many things up.
12:08	dnolen	bhauman: awesome
12:09	bhauman	dnolen: many channels may-not= bad performance. got it.
12:09	`cbp	postgresql has stored procedures which can run faster than client code
12:10	`cbp	never really used them though :)
12:11	supersym	if you must use sql, stored procedures are wtg
12:12	`cbp	I guess i should be using them then :-)
12:12	supersym	or at least in mssql/.net they were rock solid but takes a lot of time to set up and very rigid
12:15	dnolen	bhauman: I also think in bigger designs it will be normal for channels and go processes to come and go, I'm doing this in my next post and it's pretty amazing IMO.
12:16	bhauman	dnolen: you are demonstration the creation and collection of lots of channels?
12:16	supersym	hmm github die for anyone else?
12:16	bhauman	supersym: yep
12:16	supersym	aight
12:17	dnolen	bhauman: I'm doing it one place, hopefully easy to see how it can be applied at a larger scale.
12:18	dnolen	bhauman: but yes in principle you can create a process that represents some component that fires up a bunch of channels to do it's work and removes the event sources when it's done and exits, allowing all other processes to get GCed.
12:18	bhauman	dnolen: gotcha
12:18	dnolen	bhauman: for UI stuff I think this is a good pattern, just remove the sources (removeEventListener) and exit
12:20	bhauman	dnolen: gotcha, you are referring to while(true) go loops that don't close?
12:21	egghead	bhauman: I've noticed mostly i've been using go blocks with in/out chans and rarely do I find myself using the go block to deliver the result of some computation
12:21	egghead	but it seems like that is probably the cleaner thing to do?
12:21	egghead	I really liked the way bhauman did that in the dots game
12:22	egghead	actually I might be mistaken, think I'm thinking about the little :draw :draw :draw :drawend pattern
12:22	supersym	whats the difference between (declare foo) and (def foo)?
12:22	dnolen	bhauman: say a user clicks in a autocompleter field, you fire up all the channels and hook everything together, user makes a selection then tabs out, on tabout you can just remove listening on the event sources and exit the autocompleter loop
12:23	bhauman	egghead: I think both are very appropriate. Think one for modifying a stream and another for creating a stream.
12:26	supersym	oh the dots game looks nice btw :)
12:26	bhauman	dnolen: nice, but in your case there is a tab event channel that acts like a switch to destroy the autocompleter?
12:26	coventry	supersym: The source for declare in core.clj suggests that declare is a sequence of defs with {:declared true} as additional metadata.
12:26	bhauman	supersym: thanks
12:27	supersym	coventry: thank you
12:28	supersym	I should really check the source before asking
12:30	seangrove	bhauman: Enjoyed your core.async dots article!
12:30	dnolen	bhauman: I listen on blur which handles click elsewhere and and tab out
12:30	dnolen	bhauman: I've got a cool example where we need a cyclic barrier to deal w/ a browser quirk
12:30	bhauman	seangrove: thanks, man :)
12:31	bhauman	dnolen: ^
12:31	dnolen	bhauman: cyclic barrier here just means a channel that waits for n other channels to write data before writing out their values in a vector
12:31	dnolen	bhauman: we need this because f**king browsers blur on mouse down, so we can't wait for click
12:31	dnolen	anyways the beautiful thing here is this is all quarantined from the actually autocompleter code
12:32	dnolen	all this crap is at the event layer where it belongs
12:33	bbloom	blur is extra broken in IE too
12:33	bbloom	blur events can just magically go missing sometimes
12:33	bhauman	dnolen: I totally commiserate about the complexity of raw events. I went down a deep rabbit whole drawing. And I'm still not at the bottom.
12:33	bhauman	"with the drawing" i mean
12:34	dnolen	bbloom: yeah I plan on doing the requisite IE compat stuff, though I'll probably cut it off at IE 7/8 for for lack of patience
12:34	dnolen	I expect most of the issues to be CSS, not the event stuff
12:34	bbloom	oh, nobody should care about 6 any more. fuck 7 too for most purposes. however, 8 has these bugs w/ blur too according to the react.js source
12:34	dnolen	this has been the case w/ my other posts
12:35	dnolen	bbloom: I don't doubt it, my revelation here is we don't need to taint a correct process w/ this stuff
12:35	dnolen	"Quarantining Quirks"
12:35	bbloom	yes.
12:35	bbloom	react does a nice job of creating a uniform event layer
12:36	dnolen	bbloom: cool, do they use queues as well?
12:36	supersym	bhauman: I was pondering some problems before really diving into cljs
12:36	supersym	seems like your post/game solved them quite elegantly
12:37	bhauman	supersym: thanks, I am refactoring some of the examples right now to clean up a major short coming of the method used in that post
12:38	bbloom	dnolen: in a sense. they just have a bunch of javascript arrays that they use in queue-style and accumulate events up. they then wrap all the browser events in synthetic event objects that prevent a cross-browser interface & all the subscribe/unsubscribe stuff gets de-quirked as much as possible
12:38	bbloom	if github was working, i'd link you to their ascii architecture diagram
12:39	bbloom	it's in src/core/ReactEventEmitter.js
12:39	dnolen	bbloom: and this architecture is cleanly exposed to users who want to adopt the pattern?
12:40	dnolen	bbloom: one thing I'm seeing is that I rarely want subscribe/unsubscribe nor my early usage of `multiplex`
12:40	bbloom	dnolen: their dom structure / behavior stuff is relatively decoupled from their reactive stuff, but all 3 rely on an ID assignment scheme & use those IDs to maintain state external to the DOM
12:41	bbloom	yeah subscribe/unsubscribe is always a bad plan
12:41	bbloom	if you use react proper, they basically garbage collect after each "frame"
12:41	egghead	multiplex, more like broadcast amirite :p
12:41	bbloom	they walk the change set and unhook all event handlers for objects that are no longer in the dom
12:41	bbloom	they do that in a pass after updating the dom, iirc
12:42	dnolen	egghead: I not convinced about how often you need broadcast either
12:42	dnolen	egghead: my hunch it that should be avoided nearly everytime
12:44	egghead	it's interesting to turn a chan into a fan-out style chan, but I agree that it's the edge case, sometimes you want multiple people to consume the message, what would be the better alternative to broadcast in that situation?
12:45	bhauman	egghead: the :draw :draw :draw :drawend pattern is not bad but it is weak in that consumers of the stream have to manage and detect each whole draw action. The consumers have to manage that state transition.
12:45	bbloom	i prefer to coerce events in to state
12:45	bbloom	then pass state as an argument to a pure function
12:46	bbloom	then diff output w/ the previous output and coerce the diff in to dom mutations :-)
12:46	bbloom	that's what react does. it's pretty magical
12:46	bhauman	egghead: much better to do channel of channels [ [:draw :draw :draw] [:draw :draw :draw]]
12:46	bbloom	magical in the life changing sense, not in the opaque confusing negative sense
12:46	egghead	I'm not in love with explicit mapping/filtering of chans I've been doing with cljs stuff since I always end up being subtly bitten by consuming the message before I intend to
12:47	egghead	maybe that will pas
12:47	egghead	s
12:47	dnolen	bbloom: with the DOM mutations, how do they make that consistent, do you have to follow conventions in your template?
12:47	bhauman	egghead: yeah it's hard to put the message back on the queue without creating a new one
12:48	pandeiro	is dir no longer required into nrepl by default?
12:49	tbaldridge	mdrogalis: ping
12:49	dnolen	egghead: I think subscribe may be OK for multiple views needing to get changes from a data source, but I think worth exploring alternative designs. Maybe writing the changes N times onto a channel for N consumers is simpler?
12:50	dnolen	egghead: there's lots to think about and invent - exciting stuff in my opinion. I definitely recommend ditching any previous notion of architecture you may have and try lots of stuff.
12:51	egghead	agreed
12:51	noncom	how do i access the main class file generated by lein from a java program? i do gen-class for that namespace and I think it must be compiled to a class available from java.. but i am a little confused, there are "core$_main.class" and "core$loading__4910__auto__.class" and "core__init.class" and "core.class" ... which one do i pick?
12:51	egghead	oh hay github is back
12:52	noncom	and how do I call it from java anyway? what will be its java fully-qialified name?
12:53	noncom	oh, manifest says "Main-Class: lein_natives_test.core"
12:54	noncom	so it breaks java conventions and starts with a lowercase letter.. hmm
12:56	egghead	noncom: it's relatively common to just include the clj runtime and provide a java class that delegates to your clojure code
12:57	egghead	ls
12:57	lazybot	bin etc home lib lost+found opt root sbin srv tmp var
12:57	egghead	oh thanks lazybot
12:57	noncom	egghead: is there an exception for that?
12:57	noncom	s/exception/example?
12:57	egghead	noncom: take a look at https://github.com/nathanmarz/cascalog/blob/develop/cascalog-core/src/java/jcascalog/Api.java for an example
12:57	dnolen	clojure-mode indentation is such an eyesore
12:57	dnolen	http://ragnard.github.io/2013/08/12/datomic-in-the-browser.html
12:57	Anderkent	I wouldn't do that unless you need to expose stuff to javaland anyway..
12:58	seangrove	dnolen: What should it be instead?
12:58	pjstadig	noncom: also this https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/main.java
12:58	noncom	Anderkent: that is exactly what I need.. :)
12:58	egghead	along with https://github.com/nathanmarz/cascalog/blob/develop/cascalog-core/src/java/cascalog/Util.java#L36
12:58	seangrove	I wouldn't mind seeing a clj-fmt pre-commit hook tool
12:58	dnolen	seangrove: always 2 space, align only on binding forms and data structure literals
12:58	`cbp	damn this gandalf theme from emacs live has some impossible to read colors. Does anyone have good light-colored clojure color themes? :-)
12:58	Anderkent	noncom: oh, okay. I thought you were just looking to run something from a jar - java -cp <jarfile> clojure.main -m my.clojure.namespace is fine then
12:59	egghead	`cbp: I like http://chriskempson.github.io/base16/
12:59	Anderkent	noncom: in that case https://github.com/mikera/clojure-utils/blob/master/src/main/java/mikera/cljutils/Clojure.java might be for you
12:59	noncom	Anderkent: for technical reasons I need to get the access to the class-file generated by lein...
13:00	Anderkent	oh ok
13:00	Anderkent	nvm then
13:00	Anderkent	was wrong again :P
13:00	`cbp	egghead: :-)
13:01	bhauman	dnolen: we should throw some comments on that post eh?
13:02	Anderkent	dnolen: I don't see anything wrong with that indentation. Aligning call args is the right thing to do.. You can still put a newline right after fn name if it takes you too far right I guess
13:03	dnolen	Anderkent: I'm sorry it's an abomination plain and simple. My opinion of course.
13:05	llasram	Isn't it just the traditional way one idents Lisps?
13:05	Anderkent	so you'd do (f 2 3\n<indent>4 5) ? That's... surprising. For me the intiution of vectors with all members equal and lists with the first member priviledged (i.e skipped for alignment purposes) seems most natural
13:06	dnolen	llasram: no, this ugliness is a Clojure community innnovation
13:07	Anderkent	the main thing I find confusing is that some forms are special cased - defn etc.
13:07	hiredman	dnolen: that is not true, it is how emacs indents lisp
13:07	llasram	Looks to be standard for Emacs, yah: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Lisp-Indent.html
13:08	hiredman	you can get emacs to indent random clojure forms like you are saying by telling emacs those forms get defun style indentation
13:08	hiredman	(defun is not a typo there)
13:10	hiredman	some scheme style guides also recommend the aligned argument style
13:11	dnolen	hiredman: ok maybe it is an lisp dialect innovation, it's not something I've seen much in Scheme code
13:11	Anderkent	well, I guess for me what exact style you use is not that important, as long as you can produce a config that automatically aligns according to that style... Consistency over prettyness.
13:12	kasterma	Why do you value consistency over readability?
13:12	hiredman	dnolen: when you google "scheme style guide" the first one has the aligned arguments style
13:13	hiredman	http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-style also
13:13	hiredman	the only place where it is a issue, and I suspsect this is why you are so annoyed by it, is when you have forms like core.logic's fresh
13:14	dnolen	hiredman: yes but unsurprisingly no examples of about how catastrophically ugly it is with moderately long function names
13:14	pjstadig	yeah you need to have clojure-mode indent that like a defun, and you're good
13:14	Anderkent	dnolen: just put a new line after function name?
13:19	dnolen	Anderkent: then you get 1 space indent shakes fist. I should probably stop complaining and write an elisp defun that does what I want.
13:20	hiredman	(put-clojure-indent 'fresh 'defun)
13:20	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
13:20	coventry	nrepl's M-. hits the leningen jar file for clojure source code, which is a bit slow. Is there a way to point it at an uncompressed tree?
13:21	hiredman	clojurebot: what are you doing?
13:21	clojurebot	Huh?
13:21	Anderkent	the one space indent makes sense to me since it's just a list. Otherwise you get indents in (quote (1 \n 2 \n 3))
13:22	Anderkent	unless you make your indent scroll a compiler I don't think you can reliably distinguish between list-to-be-executed and list-that-is-just-data
13:22	Anderkent	so you have to indent them the same way, and the 1 space indent is less ugly :P
14:08	dnolen	si14: what part about the core.match preallocated exception for backtracking is confusing?
14:10	bbloom	dnolen: sorry for the delayed response: the way you make that consistent is that you defer all dom operations & represent even the act of creating a node as data. when you write a render function in react, you don't actually create a node. you only create a node descriptor. and then if that descriptor matches the dom, nothing happens. so in effect, by always returning a plan instead of the result of executing the plan, then the runtime
14:10	bbloom	can enforce consistency for you
14:10	dnolen	bbloom: so they have some kind of language for all the different ways you can manipulate the dom?
14:11	bbloom	dnolen: their JSX language is optional. it basically adds XML literals to javascript, but they parse trivially from <Parent x="5"><Child/></Parent> to something like `new dom.Parent({x: "5"}, [new Child()])`
14:12	bbloom	but that just creates basically a description like: {"type": "Parent", "params": {"x": 5}, "state": {}, "content": [{"type": "Child" ....
14:13	dnolen	bbloom: yes so they fiddle with that, but how do they handle all the different kinds of dom manip you might do?
14:13	dnolen	append, prepend, change attribute, HTMLFragment, etc
14:13	dnolen	bbloom: or do they try to abstract that away?
14:13	bbloom	you don't do any of that nonsense :-)
14:14	bbloom	so there are two answers:
14:14	bbloom	1) you generally avoid that & instead write pure functions that return a new view. just like if you were rendering the full page server side. the runtime will make that efficient w/ memoization
14:14	bbloom	2) but of course you need to react to events
14:14	dnolen	bbloom: so do they always build DOM? behind the scenes do they do the fasting thing
14:14	dnolen	clone, HTMLFragment, string + innerHTML?
14:14	bbloom	yeah
14:14	seangrove	Woo, destructuring args in javascript
14:14	dnolen	bbloom: but not pluggable?
14:15	seangrove	It's not beautiful, but a step forward, I suppose
14:15	bbloom	for #2, you can call setProps on a child or whatever & that will maintain some stateful components. but all that state is processed transactionally. if you change props or state on yourself or a child, you can't observe the new props or state until the next frame
14:15	bbloom	all the props & state are applied in a transaction
14:15	bbloom	then the recursive diffing happens
14:16	dnolen	bbloom: ok sounds good, but as usually I'm skeptical this covers all the cases I care about
14:16	bbloom	dnolen: the event system is pluggable, so you can add new event types to play with this system
14:16	bbloom	you can't do jquery-like aspect-oriented things
14:16	bbloom	that's the biggest limitation, which could be viewed as a feature for larger apps
14:16	dnolen	bbloom: yeah I don't really care if you can't eliminate the rendering mapping dilemma
14:16	dnolen	bbloom: would like a system that could abstract over DOM, WebGL, Canvas etc
14:16	bbloom	oh, they have an escape hatch
14:16	bbloom	you can always request the underlying dom node
14:17	bbloom	and there are callbacks for when you are mounted or unmounted on to a node
14:17	bbloom	so you can do anything you want, but you just have to manage it yourself
14:17	bbloom	and you can package that behavior up in to a mixin if you want
14:17	dnolen	bbloom: that's good, though the point is can you reuse the architecture or not for new surfaces
14:17	dnolen	if not, it's the same garbage as everything else
14:18	bbloom	the same design can be applied to other things, which is what i'm occasionally working on: getting that to work for HTML, or Canvas, or GL, or Swing, or whatever
14:18	bbloom	but their implementation is finely tuned for html/dom
14:21	bbloom	doing this sensibly for an arbitrary backend & supporting a general notion of a "button" or other widget that is both abstract, but customizable per platform is hard
14:22	bbloom	dnolen: you can think of react's diff rendering loop as a little interpreter that's doing symbolic macro expansion and selective evaluation at runtime. hence why i'm talking to kovas about symbolic engines :-)
14:26	dnolen	bbloom: yeah I got that from your earlier descriptions, I just want support for multiple interpreters :)
14:28	bbloom	dnolen: me too :-) i started implementing it in an ad-hoc fashion, but there was a TON of boilerplate code & the interpreters were SLOW, but casual analysis showed that a lot of things can be trivially optimized
14:29	tbaldridge	eric_normand: ping
14:29	eric_normand	tbaldridge: hey!
14:29	bbloom	dnolen: i found myself creating/flattening/reduce-ing large trees of s-expression encoded in vectors with keyword tags
14:29	tbaldridge	hey, I'm interested in the problem you mentioned on twitter. is there something we can do differently to solve your problem?
14:32	eric_normand	tbaldridge: I doubt it, but maybe.
14:32	eric_normand	tbaldridge: I converted many callbacks in our code into async channels
14:32	eric_normand	with go blocks blocked listening for a message
14:33	tbaldridge	eric_normand: ok, sounds reasonable
14:33	eric_normand	some of the callbacks I converted were listening on chrome channels (different type of channel)
14:34	eric_normand	so the callback to add a message on the channel was waking up the event page
14:34	eric_normand	then it would go into a loop (with setTimeouts)
14:34	eric_normand	listening for the messages
14:34	eric_normand	so it would never sleep and took 100% CPU
14:35	eric_normand	after a few days, the extension would crash
14:35	eric_normand	it could also be that it was creating a new go block (with infinite loop) per callback
14:35	eric_normand	I haven't diagnosed it that far
14:36	tbaldridge	eric_normand: I assume this is the api you are using? http://developer.chrome.com/extensions/messaging.html
14:36	eric_normand	yes
14:37	eric_normand	my conclusion was that we should not use core.async for these wakeup callbacks
14:38	eric_normand	and there is little other reason for core.async in the event page, since the event page is just a kind of relay between the content scripts
14:39	dnolen	eric_normand: huh reading the twitter convo and following this - I'm not sure I follow the reasoning.
14:39	tbaldridge	eric_normand: that's the part I don't understand, something seems odd in the fact "listening for the messages" causes a infinite loop. All these apis are callback driven, so this should happen
14:39	dnolen	eric_normand: sounds like something you could repro in small example if it's as fundamental as you say.
14:39	eric_normand	easy
14:40	eric_normand	(go (while true (let [x (<! c)] (.log js/console x))))
14:40	eric_normand	then never put message to c
14:40	eric_normand	don't even need the while loop
14:41	tbaldridge	I do that exact code all the time, it shouldn't be a problem
14:41	eric_normand	the problem is that the event page does not sleep
14:41	eric_normand	it will run forever as long as the browser is open
14:42	tbaldridge	are there a large number of messages in c?
14:42	eric_normand	no
14:42	tbaldridge	if the last reference to c is dropped, this go will be GC'd and the whole thing will go away
14:42	eric_normand	correct
14:42	eric_normand	but I cannot drop the reference to c
14:43	eric_normand	it has to be listening for messages
14:43	dnolen	eric_normand: so are you saying this is Chrome Extension architecture thing, the event page must be completely restartable or something?
14:43	eric_normand	dnolen: yes
14:43	eric_normand	chrome manages the wakeup
14:43	eric_normand	you register for events when you should wakeup
14:44	tbaldridge	"listening" in the code sample you gave above is just a callback attached to the channel. I assume you are using the stock core.async channels. i.e. you didn't re-implement the channel protocols
14:44	eric_normand	yes
14:44	tbaldridge	how are you getting data into c?
14:45	eric_normand	let me check
14:45	dnolen	eric_normand: I just tried you example, I see no calls to setTimeout
14:45	eric_normand	hmm
14:46	tbaldridge	I wonder if the problem is on the putting side of c
14:46	dnolen	eric_normand: I've done quite a bit of basic profiling of core.async under CLJS around memory and event generation and haven't seen this issue.
14:47	dnolen	eric_normand: might be missing something but it's not coming up under the Chrome Timeline
14:47	eric_normand	ok, I need to do deeper investigation
14:48	dnolen	eric_normand: ok there's exactly one call to MessageChannel in Chrome, no others
14:49	dnolen	eric_normand: we don't event use setTimeout for message sends, setTimeout only comes into play for put! and I think go block wakeup
14:49	dnolen	tbaldridge might know a bit more
14:49	eric_normand	there must have been something waking it up
14:50	dnolen	eric_normand: I'm assuming you can't keep state on the event page because of wakeup?
14:51	eric_normand	dnolen: right
14:51	eric_normand	we use local storage
14:51	dnolen	eric_normand: ok, than it is probably the one message that screws everything up for you.
14:51	eric_normand	but now I realize that we keep the channel in state
14:52	eric_normand	so that the callback can put the message onto the correct channel
14:52	dnolen	eric_normand: initially sounds like the Chrome Extension model is busted to me though - and core.async might be a bad model because event page is a dirty hack
14:52	dnolen	eric_normand: so yeah you create creating pages that stay awake because of one event
14:53	eric_normand	it looks like two problems: we keep channel around for the callback, and we don't check if the page is already loaded before initiating another channel
14:53	dnolen	eric_normand: right
14:53	eric_normand	I don't know if we can check
14:54	eric_normand	I basically ported all of our callbacks directly to channels
14:54	eric_normand	but I failed to realize that the callbacks needed also to register themselves again
14:55	eric_normand	they need to register each time the page is loaded, or it won't wake up again
14:56	eric_normand	dnolen: I think you're right. It's just a hack
14:56	eric_normand	dnolen: the script is meant to run to completion quickly and be run again later
14:56	dnolen	eric_normand: this is how I think it works
14:57	dnolen	eric_normand: they run the page expecting it to terminate, your event handler is listening on a queue
14:57	dnolen	eric_normand: but your code drops and event handler hanging the JS context
14:57	dnolen	every event will create a new hung event page eventually crashing the browser
14:58	eric_normand	dnolen: agreed.
14:59	potetm	Okay, I have a newb question: what does the '#function-name syntax actaully mean?
14:59	amalloy	,'#'inc
14:59	clojurebot	(var inc)
14:59	potetm	Is that just clojure's way of denoting a function reference?
14:59	potetm	'#inc
15:00	potetm	,'#'inc
15:00	clojurebot	(var inc)
15:00	potetm	'#'inc
15:00	eric_normand	dnolen: my solution was to avoid core.async in the event page
15:00	potetm	,'#inc
15:00	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
15:00	eric_normand	potetm: not function reference. it returns the Var
15:01	dnolen	eric_normand: yes, I think you're conclusion is reasonabe :)
15:01	tbaldridge	eric_normand: yeah, that makes sense now.
15:01	dnolen	s/you're/your
15:02	potetm	eric_normand: okay, so when I say (function-name arg1), in this context "function-name" is a symbol that refers to the var '#function-name
15:03	potetm	That seems a little convoluted to me… maybe I'm missing some underlying simplicity…?
15:03	dnolen	eric_normand: I suspect it can be made to work, but I think you'd have to extra careful
15:04	eric_normand	potetm: vars are there for interactive development
15:04	eric_normand	dnolen: agreed.
15:05	juhu_chapa	Is there a way to refer to parent namespace? i.e. (println ../somevar)
15:05	eric_normand	potetm: they are an efficient way for the compiler to point to something that won't change (the var) but refers to something that will (the function)
15:05	eric_normand	potetm: afk
15:06	potetm	eric_normand: afk? you mean afik?
15:06	channels	afk is a reader macro equivalent to Away From Keyboard
15:07	potetm	lol
15:07	potetm	I wasn't sure if he actually meant it because it was directed at me personally. Thanks channels ;)
15:09	callen	Twitter is great today.
15:10	eric_normand	potetm: sorry, just had something to attend to
15:10	eric_normand	potetm: in the middle of the chat
15:10	callen	ztellman: thanks for the laughs.
15:10	ztellman	you mean the totally reasonable solutions?
15:10	potetm	eric_normand: not a problem
15:12	callen	ztellman: sure, but aphyr's reactions to the exchange were great.
15:12	ztellman	yeah
15:13	snake-john	Hi, (let [x 2 y (- x)] (clojure.pprint/pprint ``(~y))) shows in the repl (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list user/y))) . But I would have expected (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (-2)))). An anybody explain to me why the (-2) is not shown?
15:13	callen	ztellman: I've had to write code to monkeypatch test ordering to keep coworkers from relying on stateful, specific-order hand-offs between test-cases before so I'm sympathetic to the problem.
15:13	ztellman	callen: ha, I've never actually had to do that
15:13	amalloy	snake-john: not enough ~s
15:14	callen	ztellman: work with more Python and Ruby programmers - and you will.
15:14	ztellman	but the tests don't run in the order they're defined in the file, right?
15:14	ztellman	so how on earth can they rely on the ordering?
15:15	callen	ztellman: people will use hacks to make it ordered
15:15	callen	just google around for 'python unittest order'
15:15	callen	my monkeypatch was a counter-measure.
15:15	ztellman	fun
15:19	gtrak	ugh seriously, I'm not mad at clojure for breaking changes, but ugh.
15:19	gtrak	1.3-1.4 was way more trivial.
15:20	snake-john	amalloy: hmmh I would have thought the inner syntax quote gets run first which would yield (-2) and then the second syntax quote gets applied which would use the (-x). But this is probably not how nested quotes work
15:21	ztellman	gtrak: I dunno, that's a pretty flimsy invariant to rely on
15:21	gtrak	it's not done on purpose, but I think it ends up being transitive.
15:22	gtrak	I think the practice of simply copying output as the value you're testing for is the real malpractice.
15:22	hammer	i need to convince clojure to use one method on a java API, and not the other, one takes an Iterable<Pair<String, byte[]>>, the other takes a Map<String, byte[]>
15:22	gtrak	I can't go look at it later and see if the order really matters unless I wrote it.
15:22	ztellman	hammer: hinting as ^Iterable or ^Map should do the trick
15:23	hammer	it's a both
15:23	hammer	PersistentArrayMap implements Iterable
15:23	gfredericks	hammer: yeah but you hint so it knows what to treat it as
15:24	gtrak	if the map instances randomized its storages, then the tests would never run correctly twice.
15:24	gtrak	and that's way better.
15:25	gtrak	instead of acting as timebombs
15:25	hammer	where would i hint it? I've got map m, and I'm calling Foo.bar(Map<String, byte[]) from java, so I've tried (Foo/bar (^java.util.Map m))
15:25	hammer	but that thinks I'm trying to call the function on m
15:25	hammer	ArityException Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentArrayMap clojure.lang.AFn.throwArity (AFn.java:437)
15:25	gfredericks	hammer: (Foo/bar ^java.util.Map m)
15:26	cmatheson	/b #e
15:26	cmatheson	oops
15:27	hammer	ah awesome
15:27	gfredericks	cmatheson: that's a secure password because it has two special characters
15:27	hammer	thanks a bunch
15:28	cmatheson	gfredericks: haha, just trying to switch channels
15:39	gzmask	lein uberjar just doesn't work and keeps giving me: could not find load main class error. I am pretty sure I got all the stuff right and it was working a month ago...
15:41	gfredericks	ztellman: holy snap this potemkin
15:41	ztellman	gfredericks: ayup
15:42	callen	gfredericks: I appreciate that he used the word conflate instead of complect in describing import-vars.
15:42	gfredericks	ztellman: I keep wanting lazy maps everywhere
15:42	callen	I'm probably going to need potemkin soon because I have a library that is going to get hairy.
15:43	ztellman	gfredericks: lazy maps? maps with random key order? maps that only give you what you ask for every other time? use potemkin!
15:43	ztellman	also there's this, which I think is one of the funnier things I've written: https://github.com/ztellman/potemkin/blob/master/src/potemkin/types.clj#L37
15:43	amalloy	i feel like ztellman must have recently hired a PR person and handed over his twitter/irc credentials
15:43	gfredericks	ztellman: I want to create a type which implements every interface in clojure.lang. Can potemkim help me do this?
15:43	ztellman	watches the protocol var, updates other protocols whenever it changes
15:44	gfredericks	perhaps defeverything?
15:44	gtrak	gfredericks: defclojure
15:45	ztellman	gfredericks; this gets you like 2/3rds of the way there: https://github.com/ztellman/potemkin/blob/master/src/potemkin/collections.clj#L21-L164
15:45	ztellman	amalloy: it took me a while to find a PR firm fluent in Clojure, but it was well worth the effort
15:46	ztellman	gfredericks: https://github.com/ztellman/potemkin#unify-gensyms
15:49	devn	ztellman: i just played hackey sack, sponsored by Factual
15:51	ztellman	Factual is renowned as a great patron of the hackey sack
15:58	noncom\|2	where is weavejester? haven't seen him for a while..
16:00	eric_normand	anybody going to play in Clojure Cup?
16:01	`cbp	:-O are there prizes?
16:02	timvisher	has anyone heard of an effort to automitically build up var definition history in nrepl without directly interacting with the repl buffer?
16:02	timvisher	i.e. logging off the form that's evaled whenever one is evaled?
16:03	noncom\|2	timvisher: no.. and what about you?
16:04	timvisher	noncom\|2: indeed i have not. it finally hit me at the Clojadelphia's meetup last night that the reason you might want to use the REPL directly is to be able to scroll back through the intermediate definitions of a function as you're building it up
16:05	timvisher	it doesn't seem like it would be that hard to automatically print the evaled form in the REPL before actually evaluating it, so I thought someone else might have cooked one up already
16:05	hiredman	I think that assumes a style of working that is not universal
16:05	noncom\|2	timvisher: oh, i think that's what ccw does
16:05	timvisher	hiredman: ?
16:05	timvisher	noncom\|2: that might be what i'm thinking of
16:06	hiredman	timvisher: I generally don't build functions in the repl
16:06	noncom\|2	but personally i use ctrl+up to wind the buffer and find a particular memory from the past
16:06	timvisher	i also thought that hugo duncan might have mentioned something in his nrepl talk
16:06	hiredman	if I have a little expression or something I will build that up in the repl
16:06	travisrodman	ivaraasen: thanks for sharing your code example the other day, about how you consume the clojure code in java. it was in regards to the data importer. very helpful. thanks
16:06	hiredman	but often I start with (defn f [] ...) in a file, eval the whole file, call (f) in the repl
16:06	timvisher	hiredman: you're describing how i work, i believe
16:07	eric_normand	from the home page and the judges, clojure cup will be a game project
16:07	noncom\|2	hiderman: timvisher: you all say this coz you no use lighttable yet
16:07	timvisher	you don't just type (f) directly into the file, perhaps in a comment form, and eval it?
16:07	hiredman	I extremely rarely type a form (defn …) in to the repl
16:07	timvisher	noncom\|2: :)
16:08	hiredman	timvisher: sure, I've done that too
16:08	noncom\|2	i do defns in repl when i figure out how to construct that or another sequence of collection-operating àòû
16:08	timvisher	regardless, i realized last night that what that looses is the intermediate steps of building up my function
16:08	hiredman	timvisher: but my point is, in that style a history of vars in the repl doesn't seem useful
16:09	noncom\|2	that never exceeds oneliners though
16:09	timvisher	it seems like more people than not in the clojure community use the repl directly and then copy fully defed vars into their source file
16:09	hiredman	timvisher: if you are reloading a hole file, how does your history thing work?
16:09	timvisher	i don't like that because my repl buffer is not 'savable'
16:10	bbloom	timvisher: i think most of us write in to source files directly & then use a key combination to send forms to the repl
16:10	timvisher	hiredman: i'd assume that if a function definition hasn't changed it would not reprint
16:10	timvisher	bbloom: interesting. maybe i've just gotten an incorrect impression then. :)
16:10	hiredman	shrug
16:10	noncom\|2	timvisher: usually it does reprint, since the other way requires more analysis
16:10	hiredman	I am not advocating for something, or saying one thing is more common than another
16:11	timvisher	noncom\|2: in ccw? i would be annoyed by that i think.
16:11	hiredman	I am saying there are assumptions there that aren't universal
16:11	timvisher	hiredman: i'm assuming there would be a configuration option with that
16:11	noncom\|2	timvisher: anyway, tell us what is your vision of the future?
16:11	hiredman	so go a head and do whatever, just don't be surprised if no one cares :)
16:12	chronno	timvisher: nrepl-send-to-repl in https://gist.github.com/kingtim/4349847 although I haven't tried it.
16:12	timvisher	so if you don't want your repl buffer filling up with intermediate definitions then you wouldn't turn the feature on
16:12	timvisher	chronno: interesting!
16:12	timvisher	hiredman: duly noted. :\
16:13	timvisher	noncom\|2: vision is that curretly as i'm building up a form, i have to rely on undo to back off from a bad set of changes to a good state
16:14	noncom\|2	timvisher: so, per-form history you want?
16:14	timvisher	if you think of the REPL as a shell, and your function as a complex set of piped together commands, then it would be like piping on 2 new commands, executing it, and realizing you screwed up, and not being able to press ↑ and try again
16:14	timvisher	instead, you have to press your undo key a bunch of times, remembering what the form looked like before, and hope that you don't go to far
16:15	hiredman	timvisher: what repl are you using that doesn't have history?
16:15	noncom\|2	yes it is so currently
16:15	timvisher	so the vision would be that i can always go to the repl buffer and look through the history of things that i evaled, in order, and pick up where i left off
16:15	noncom\|2	timvisher: i think you can device this repl youself?
16:16	noncom\|2	in elisp or swing? depends on your preference..
16:16	hiredman	timvisher: you just want to save the history?
16:16	timvisher	hiredman: nrepl.el does not do this by default (or in any configurable was afaict)
16:16	noncom\|2	timvisher: once i made such an app. it was in java and for shell commands though. it was an easy task
16:16	timvisher	if i'm interacting with the repl directly it does, but i prefer to edit source files for basically any kind of editing, even if that's just exploratory
16:16	hiredman	because for example, in nrepl.el M-p will give you the previously eval'ed code
16:17	llasram	timvisher: Er, nrepl-history-size etc ?
16:17	timvisher	hiredman: do you have a source file open?
16:17	timvisher	if you do, type `(+ 1 1) C-x C-e` and then switch to the nrepl buffer and press `M-p`
16:17	hiredman	I have many, in emacs buffers locally and remotelly
16:17	timvisher	`(+ 1 1)` does not show up for me
16:18	timvisher	only what i actually have typed in the repl buffer is in that history
16:18	hiredman	sure
16:18	timvisher	hiredman: so that's the feature i'm talking about desiring. :)
16:18	hiredman	and what do you want to happen when I hit C-c C-k and then M-p in the repl
16:19	timvisher	what does `C-c C-k` do?
16:19	hiredman	loads the whole file
16:19	timvisher	interestingly, it loads the buffer
16:19	timvisher	C-c C-l will load the file, but that's beside the point
16:19	timvisher	i would want to have only vars whose definitions have changed appear in the repl
16:20	timvisher	but if it was too hard, i'd probably be ok with all the forms being printed as they are evaled
16:20	llasram	Perhaps you may be interested in inferior-lisp-mode?
16:20	timvisher	llasram: is this how inferior lisp works?
16:20	timvisher	i only used that briefly way back in the day and then moved onto slime
16:20	timvisher	i wouldn't want to miss all of nrepl's features just to get history
16:21	llasram	Well, then pick and or fork your poison :-)
16:21	llasram	inferior-lisp just has a process which you can pump forms to
16:21	timvisher	that's what it's sounding like i'll have to do
16:22	llasram	So they're all in history, but you can't ask the process anything (like get docstrings) etc
16:22	timvisher	llasram: yep. that's what i'm looking for but with all of the other nrepl goodness. :)
16:22	timvisher	this would _definitely_ not be worth the tradeoff of loosing the rest of nrepl
16:22	timvisher	it's more of an expriment too
16:23	timvisher	i'm pretty happy with my current dev flow, i just finally realized why some people might develop at the repl rather than in their source files
16:23	timvisher	and it seems like it would be a good experiment to run
16:25	`cbp	Am I the only one that goes to the last paren of an expression then does C-x C-e? I feel like I should be able to C-c C-c inside the body like with common lisp :(
16:26	technomancy	`cbp: C-M-x
16:26	eric_normand	`cbp: I C-c C-c
16:28	`cbp	oh what the heck i swear i couldnt do c-c c-c before. Also i didnt know about C-M-x
16:29	coventry	C-u C-M-x is awfully useful for stepping through elisp.
16:29	gtrak	`cbp: huh, I still do it that way. thanks for the tip.
16:29	`cbp	must have been used to an old version of nrepl
16:31	gtrak	I can neither do c-c c-c nor C-M x
16:31	gtrak	KDE grabs it I guess
16:32	gtrak	C-M anything seems not right
16:34	gtrak	ah, my repl itself is hosed
16:38	callen	just a reminder to everybody
16:38	callen	Java's SecureRandom is not secure, nor is any userland CSPRNG
16:38	callen	I just got done putting in a PR to weavejester's crypto-random to fix it.
16:40	ivan	callen: why not any userland CSPRNG?
16:41	gtrak	callen: this wrecks my plans for a SecureRandomPersistentHashMap
16:41	ivan	callen: also Windows does not have /dev/urandom
16:41	callen	ivan: CryptGenRandom for best-effort on Windows.
16:41	callen	but CryptGenRandom has dubious-at-best entropy sources. Do not run things that need to be secure on Windows.
16:41	callen	don't use SecureRandom on Unix at the very least.
16:42	callen	or don't use SecureRandom with the expectation of cryptographically secure random bytes.
16:42	callen	ivan: you cannot implement a cryptographically secure PRNG in userland.
16:42	callen	you must use the kernel API.
16:42	ivan	why not
16:46	callen	ivan: I can't tell if you're asking for a white paper or you want to discuss cryptography system implementation.
16:46	ivan	callen: I just need a summary of why it's impossible, or some citation
16:46	ivan	is it because timing attacks due to scheduling?
16:47	callen	that's one of the reasons
16:49	callen	there might be, in some perfect universe, a way to implement a secure CSPRNG in userland, but that never happens. So stop using them.
16:49	callen	or implementing them. Because you'll fuck up.
16:50	gzmask	anyone use core.typed? how would you use it?
16:50	ivan	claiming that something is impossible requires stronger support than that
16:51	callen	ivan: it's a pretty standard understanding of CSPRNG
16:51	technomancy	ivan: what have you got against arguments from authority bro?
16:51	callen	technomancy: security is too fragile for amateur hour "good enough"
16:52	callen	technomancy: particularly when secure options exist. it's stupid and unnecessary.
16:52	xicubed	i once interviewed at a lottery company, they had a server room with some radioactive substance who's decay provided the random seed...
16:52	callen	It also requires a lot of background to really be able to do anything without deeply fucking up.
16:52	technomancy	callen: of course. that doesn't mean you can't back up your claims.
16:53	callen	technomancy: I'm not really in the mood to go white paper hunting, I was scrambling to fix crypto-random and put the word out.
16:53	callen	another problem with security is that there's a lot of out-of-date/wrong information that still comes up via Google
16:54	callen	like OWASP's out of date recommendation to use SecureRandom without specifying impl.
16:55	seangrove	callen: People are basically good.
16:55	seangrove	Just use a dialog to ask them if they agree to be good people, and don't bother with security
16:56	callen	seangrove: cute. Did you see http://amber-lang.net/ ?
16:56	seangrove	Yeah, remember seeing this awhile ago, looks really great. Never got as far into smalltalk as I would have liked
16:57	callen	seangrove: I was actually thinking about a hybrid of that plus client-side (only) datomic with CLJS source maps
16:57	callen	visually exploring your data and each object's history.
16:58	seangrove	What do you mean client-side only datomic - no datomic server?
16:58	gzmask	anyone has experience with core.typed? does it type check on lein run or do you have to run some function in repl to type check?
16:58	ivan	heh "This class generates cryptographically secure pseudo-random numbers. It is best to invoke SecureRandom using the default constructor. This will provide an instance of the most cryptographically strong provider available" https://developer.android.com/reference/java/security/SecureRandom.html
16:58	callen	ivan: not actually true :\
16:59	callen	and like I said, there is out of date information out there.
16:59	callen	since I'm the only one that tracks security issues: http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2013/08/some-securerandom-thoughts.html
16:59	callen	the Android bitcoin client was broken because of faults in SecureRandom's implementation.
16:59	callen	the bitcoin client itself was not at fault.
17:00	callen	ivan: satisfied?
17:02	gzmask	has anyone use core.typed before? does it do type checking during repl-function-calls or runtime?
17:04	llasram	gzmask: It's not widely used (yet?). The project-creator ambrosebs is frequently around this channel, but apparently not at the moment
17:05	gzmask	llasram: hrmm, thanks... I kinda assume anthing has a core. prefix is wildly hip
17:05	supersym	gzmask: https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/wiki/User-Guide
17:06	bbloom	gzmask: type checking w/ core.typed is explicitly invoked
17:06	supersym	assertion seems to take place at the REPL
17:06	supersym	as well
17:08	bbloom	yeah, via calling cf (check form) or check-ns
17:09	TimMc	callen: So what's actually wrong with SecureRandom? I see something about "improper initialization", but no details.
17:10	TimMc	The vague impression I've got is that it's not so much Java that's at fault, but the native code Java is calling into on Android.
17:10	Raynes	tpope: Can I make vim-fireplace not try to start up a repl automatically?
17:10	Raynes	It takes forever to load files in projects where `lein repl` fails because of it.
17:10	Raynes	Because it tries every time.
17:11	callen	TimMc: Android's SecureRandom impl wasn't compliant. I don't think OpenJDK's was either.
17:11	hiredman	well, that is you call the runtime system on android "java"
17:11	hiredman	if
17:12	TimMc	callen: :-(
17:13	callen	TimMc: I believe it had to do with the entropy sources used in the creation on the initialized seed. I could be wrong on that point.
17:14	callen	I'm trying to figure out a wrapper for enforcing the use of "/dev/urandom" \|\| CryptGenRandom right now
17:15	TimMc	I was hoping this was just limited to Android.
17:16	ivan	wrapping /dev/urandom with some kind of buffer is a good idea if you don't want to pay a huge performance penalty
17:16	TimMc	Depends on the system, no?
17:16	ivan	well, you can only open /dev/urandom, read, close, a few thousand times per second
17:17	TimMc	Oh, I see.
17:17	TimMc	There's also an issue where on a few systems, /dev/urandom will block until it has more of the good stuff (juiced entropy from system timings.)
17:18	callen	that's sorta the point
17:18	callen	you can stuff lower quality entropy in if you want, but you should stop pretending it's secure then.
17:19	callen	the stuff that is supposed to be secure should stay so, and if you have some service or "thing" generating a ton of securely random bytes, it's time to get specialty hardware to provide extra entropy.
17:21	TimMc	/dev/random is the one that's supposed to block, right?
17:21	callen	yeap.
18:00	justin_smith	I wonder if anyone has used a shortwave radio on a adc to generate entropy
18:01	justin_smith	https://github.com/pwarren/rtl-entropy
18:02	justin_smith	they have a todo to add entropy to the system pool
18:03	callen	justin_smith: I know a good person to ask about that, they do work on ham radio drivers for FreeBSD
18:03	justin_smith	cool, it seems promising
18:03	callen	it's a nifty idea.
18:18	justin_smith	actually, lower tech, you could probably do a lot with a reverse biased zener diode connected to an adc
18:24	justin_smith	if I have two nrepl buffers open, how do I specify which one a given source buffer is connected to?
18:27	`cbp	why not just multiple emacs :-P
18:30	justin_smith	`cbp: that could be an option I guess, but I am doing one project that shares many properties with an older project: easier to be able to have both open in one emacs - until I deal with the "which of the repls does evaluation in this file connect to" issue
18:30	justin_smith	ie. m-x ediff
18:30	justin_smith	between old core.clj and the new one
18:38	justin_smith	looks like I need to run nrepl-connections-make-default before evaluating code that goes with that connection
18:40	justin_smith	this is tied to nrepl-connection-browser
18:41	justin_smith	it looks like there is support for "projects" but only via nrepl-jack-in?
18:43	glosoli	Hmm
18:49	seangrove	justin_smith: You can switch to the nrepl buffer you want to be default, and then run nrepl-make-repl-connection-default
18:49	seangrove	I don't know if there's a per-buffer association
18:50	seangrove	justin_smith: Sorry, just saw you already wrote that
18:50	justin_smith	no problem
18:50	justin_smith	do you know anything about the "project" feature referenced here and there?
18:50	justin_smith	that seems promising, but I am not seeing the big picture
18:51	seangrove	No, I've been running several nrepls recently and would like something like that
19:26	glosoli	How does one clear red overlay when something fails in code in Emacs Clojure Mode ?
19:38	technomancy	glosoli: clojure-test-mode?
19:38	technomancy	should be C-c k or something?
19:39	glosoli	technomancy: yeah for example I am in the file which has main method and some routes (compojure) defined, and I accidently press C-c k an it outputs some errors and adds the overlay
19:39	glosoli	:?
19:40	technomancy	you're running clojure-test-mode on a file containing compojure routes?
19:40	technomancy	that's weird
19:40	hiredman	technomancy: could just be clojure-mode with compilation errors
19:41	technomancy	hiredman: huh; does nrepl.el emit overlays now?
19:41	glosoli	hiredman: yeah this one
19:41	hiredman	glosoli: have you fixed the errors and recompiled?
19:41	hiredman	technomancy: I dunno
19:41	hiredman	I never make errors :P
19:42	`cbp	cough
19:43	justin_smith	one can walk the face overlays in an emacs buffer, find the offending item, and delete it - it is like a weird emacs parallel version of the dom
19:44	justin_smith	I forget the details at the moment, but I have done it before
19:44	justin_smith	of course the facility that generated the overlay should provide a way to remove it
19:53	TakeV	LightTables is still in active development, yes?
19:53	Raynes	Certainly.
19:54	sinistersnare	hasnt seen an update in a little while i think
19:54	sinistersnare	judging from chris grangers blog still being about that cancer and startups thing after a few montsh
19:55	glosoli	sinistersnare: There was some post in Github from him saying it should be released second week of the current month with no promises
19:55	sinistersnare	oh cool then!
19:56	glosoli	Dunno it\s been easier for me to switch to Emacs than waiting for LightTable to improve lol
19:58	justin_smith	it was a nefarious conspiracy; lighttable was just a decoy to get people using clojure in emacs
20:02	sinistersnare	ive been using Nightcode!
20:02	sinistersnare	some random IDE a guy made and released a couple nights ago
20:03	patchwork	I really think we need some more code editors
20:04	patchwork	There just aren't enough
20:04	brehaut	i cannot tell if you are being sarcastic or sincere
20:05	justin_smith	I've been thinking of running a bunch of different window managers on my virtual terminals, and running a different editor under each window manager, and on each one I would listen to music in a different music player.
20:05	sinistersnare	i think competition is great
20:06	patchwork	brehaut: I can't tell either
20:26	s4muel	i'm curious as to what most people here are using to develop clojure, or is that a long-hackneyed debate here
20:27	patchwork	s4muel: Emacs
20:27	plainman	emacs
20:27	patchwork	But editors are religion
20:27	jcsims	Emacs + nrepl
20:28	s4muel	my experience with vim/fireplace etc has been off-putting in comparison to even just the default clojure-mode in emacs (autocompletion, etc) but i am just so used to vim
20:28	patchwork	There is a vim mode in emacs
20:28	jcsims	s4muel: I was exactly the same way
20:28	s4muel	the aptly named evil mode
20:28	patchwork	So you can use all of your vim bindings from emacs
20:28	patchwork	I know quite a number of people in your boat, and it seems to work for them
20:28	cmatheson	is anyone using evil-mode? i tried it out and it seemed great, but i was oncerned about how it interacted with the various minor modes
20:29	plainman	I started as a vi person, and I probably use it more than emacs, but I found it worthwhile to work at getting the emacs commands down into my fingers rather than try to use the vi mode
20:29	s4muel	I think part of it is also the repl-development 'ecosystem' as it were
20:30	s4muel	which is just bonkers with vim
20:31	juhu_chapa	Hi guys!
20:31	s4muel	and try as i might i cannot get vim to do two things, and i know emacs does one: i want syntax highlighting for (defn my-symbol-i-want-highlighted-elsewhere [] ()), and doc strings for namespace/method outside of core
20:32	patchwork	s4muel: Yeah, use emacs
20:32	patchwork	if you can overcome the blasphemy!
20:32	sinsnare	How is repl development a thing though? It doesn't get saved anywhere, how does it work?
20:32	TEttinger	I use Light Table, which has had some issues with evaluating anything longer than a paragraph of code in the instarepl... but otherwise does what I need it to do.
20:33	justin_smith	sinsnare: there is repl history, and really you should be writing functions in your source, and playing with them in the repl (to experiment with variations, see what they do with various inputs, etc.)
20:33	s4muel	sinsnare: reloading your code -- the beauty of functional stateless-ness. For example I'm working on a lamina/aleph processing/plexer thing. I reload the namespace, pass in a message, and see what happens.
20:33	TEttinger	gah you can reload namespaces? I've honestly been using lein repl, quit, lein repl as my workflow D:
20:33	justin_smith	and yes, redefining everything and seeing what it does next time
20:34	sinsnare	That's a really interesting thought. Never thought of it like that
20:34	justin_smith	(require '[foo.bar] :reload)
20:34	s4muel	some stuff requires state to be set up, example i have to prepare/enqueue dummy messages on a channel, but that's easy with some helpers like expectations run-before
20:34	patchwork	TEttinger: The greatest part of using clojure
20:34	patchwork	modify function in source code, send the definition to the running repl, repl now uses updated code
20:34	sinsnare	I'm fairly new to repl stuff. Ive mostly done python repl as a calculator :p
20:34	patchwork	Now I can't live without it
20:34	TEttinger	I knew people were doing it, but I had no idea how
20:35	sinsnare	So excuse ignorance
20:35	cespare	TEttinger: any workflow that requires you to run lein commands all the time is no good, it's slow as balls
20:35	patchwork	Just C-M-x somewhere in the function definition, repl is now using new code
20:35	s4muel	TEttinger: it gets complex when you have side-effect things like tcp servers that need to be restarted on reload
20:35	TEttinger	cespare, yeah. I figured that part out myself.
20:35	patchwork	BAM!
20:36	sinsnare	that's cool stuff
20:36	patchwork	s4muel: In that case I have the servers referring to #'function-name (a reference to the var rather than the function itself)
20:36	TEttinger	the other issue is with my code using Swing, and main needing to be in a UI thread
20:36	patchwork	Then when I update it, the server is now using my new code
20:38	s4muel	patchwork: I am also doing that with a multimethod dispatch, cool that you can apply it there!
20:38	patchwork	Developed webservers that way, irc bots, socket servers etc
20:38	s4muel	patchwork: I am doing something like this to manage the tcp server from repl https://gist.github.com/shalicke/6246155
20:39	abp	http://thinkrelevance.com/blog/2013/06/04/clojure-workflow-reloaded
20:39	s4muel	Seems ghetto now.
20:40	patchwork	s4muel: Yeah, that is somewhat elaborate, but it works
20:40	patchwork	Not entirely necessary if you are using nrepl and emacs
20:41	s4muel	I have (usually) a vim window open, lein autoexpect, and lein repl
20:45	TEttinger	so... I made a small swing app with clojure, but when I wanted a friend to run it, he didn't have java installed. I thought it was going to be rare, but a fair amount of end-users seem to be avoiding installing a JVM these days... What do you think about clojurescript for an application meant for less-technical users?
20:45	s4muel	That's another discussion, tdd workflow -- I'm new & landed on expectations / lein-autoexpect, the other camp(s) seem to be Midje or speclj, any thoughts from the peanut gallery?
20:46	technomancy	clojure.test is great
20:46	technomancy	expectations seems the least crazy of the options you listed though
20:46	s4muel	Yeah I needed something that would ... not be too much of a learning curve, really, and automatic
20:47	s4muel	Midje seems like that camp of almost-bdd where it's a journey to write the tests themselves (think webrat/selenium/argh)
20:47	technomancy	right; the main advantage of clojure.test is that basic usage involves a total of two macros; advanced usage typically only adds one more
20:48	callen	Midje is silly and was written by silly people emulating the efforts of nihilists.
20:48	callen	None of them are to be trusted.
20:48	s4muel	author of Midje is probably in this channel somewhere. Don't get me wrong, better developers than me use it, I'm just saying it seems like a real commitment :)
20:49	hiredman	unlikely
20:51	callen	he's not here.
20:52	callen	s4muel: very thoughtful of you, but ad hominem is pretty valid when you're relying on their software. Pass.
20:52	callen	Cf. Rich Hickey vs. Rasmus Lerdorf.
20:52	s4muel	callen: true.
20:53	cespare	> ad hominem is pretty valid when you're relying on their software
20:53	cespare	wat
20:53	callen	for any that might care, pending testing, I'll probably reverse my position on c.j.j vs. Korma due to the new API.
20:53	callen	cespare: unless you're willing to audit all of the code, you have to extrapolate from their track record and their judgment.
20:53	patchwork	callen: The new api for c.j.j or korma?
20:53	callen	patchwork: the new API for c.j.j
20:53	cespare	callen: != ad hominem
20:53	callen	it's greatly improved.
20:54	patchwork	Ah, haven't heard that
20:54	patchwork	I'll check it out
20:54	callen	cespare: it really is. The person that wrote the software can invalidate my willingness to consider the software.
20:54	patchwork	Yeah korma has not been updated in a while
20:54	callen	cespare: concordantly, the point of ad hominem is to use the person behind the argument to invalidate the argument.
20:54	cespare	callen: what you're describing is not an ad hominem argument
20:54	callen	you are seriously misunderstanding me.
20:54	patchwork	cespare: Well, callen says so so it must be wrong
20:55	callen	I am saying ad hominem is a reason to ignore software from certain people. I'm explaining how it's parallel to the use of ad hominem in arguments.
20:55	callen	Arguments can be evaluated on their merits completely within the context of a single discussion, code typically isn't that easy to box up.
20:55	s4muel	reputation as code
20:56	callen	As a result, evaluating the quality of the source becomes a potentially valid and definitely more efficient way to evaluate software from afar.
20:56	callen	I really do not think it was a very subtle or difficult point to make
20:56	callen	I figured the Rasmus/Hickey thing would make it obvious. I guess not.
20:56	callen	going back the original point, anybody who reads the mailing list knows what I'm talking about.
20:59	patchwork	callen: I missed out on the mailing list discussion. Has midje been discredited?
20:59	patchwork	I have never used it
21:00	callen	There are people that use clojure.test because they don't care, people that use midje because they don't care, people that use clojure.test because they "been there, broke that" with testing frameworks like Midje and are duly terrified, and people that use Midje because they forgot to leave the Ruby at the door.
21:01	callen	it's my personal opinion that syntax/DSL is a matter of "least concern" when it comes to testing and instead automating/managing things like fixtures, functional testing, integration testing is a lot more valuable and "labor saving"
21:01	patchwork	So midje uses rubyisms? Hmm… I always thought ruby used lispisms. Well, and smalltalkisms
21:01	patchwork	Ah, so it emphasized DSL over actual functionality
21:01	patchwork	Got it
21:01	callen	Ruby is syntactically Perl, semantically a mutable OOP lang, and the Smalltalk has been beaten vicious and put in the closet.
21:02	callen	but because any jackass of the street can believe themselves to be capable of evaluating the readability of syntax, that's what everybody wants to fuck with when it comes to testing.
21:02	patchwork	Ha. Poor smalltalk
21:02	callen	ain't nobody want to do the subtle, more difficult work of making tests more useful or comprehensive.
21:02	callen	or more interesting things like auto-generating test cases against defined constraints and input spaces.
21:03	s4muel	That would be very handy for testing channels and inputs.
21:03	callen	s4muel: google, "haskell quickcheck"
21:03	patchwork	callen: So is there a clojure testing library that does tackle that?
21:03	patchwork	Count me as in the "uses clojure.text because they don't care" camp
21:03	patchwork	*test
21:04	callen	there are implementations of QuickCheck for Clojure which is a good start. I just use clojure.test and write tooling to wrap the ugly of whatever I'm working on.
21:04	patchwork	QuickCheck, interesting...
21:04	callen	I've had to work on algorithms with non-deterministic/unverifiable output once the solution space gets large enough, so I basically had to write a fuzzing library.
21:06	callen	there's also just typical web apps. Vanilla unit testing is not very well suited to verifying web apps these days.
21:06	callen	fucking with syntax won't change that.
21:08	`cbp	callen: hi
21:08	s4muel	Yes. Although I think the problem lies at a lower level with simply managing side effects of tests and state in regards to that. Serving an http request is nothing special per se, it's the management of the state of the client, dbs, services, etc. that are ugly, IMO
21:08	`cbp	callen: any more projects i can help with? :-) I need some clojure in my spare time or ill go insane
21:08	s4muel	s/are/is/
21:10	callen	`cbp: I have many. Some hairier than others.
21:10	callen	`cbp: I'm working on bulwark right now, it's a bit fiddly and early stage though.
21:10	callen	s4muel: That's a part of the ugly in terms of implementation details, but I feel like the whole problem is waiting for a nice "gift-wrapped" clean-up like Leiningen was for packaging.
21:11	callen	s4muel: I work on a lot of services/web app type stuff, so half of my shit that can break isn't even technically Clojure code. Being able to sanely test/mock that stuff without a ton of trouble would be nice.
21:17	callen	`cbp: my todo-list includes: Bulwark (Rack::attack for Clojure), proxy+ with JVM annotation bytecode support, pomegranate "sync with project.clj", clj-time API rewrite, Rewriting Selmer with Instaparse as an experiment, possibly quickcheck for Clojure if the existing impls suck, and selmer leiningen plugin for testing batch compliation and reporting any errors if applicable
21:17	callen	`cbp: want in on any of that?
21:20	`cbp	yeah sure
21:20	callen	`cbp: also fun bit of evil: https://www.refheap.com/17695
21:21	callen	`cbp: are you familiar with how proxy works?
21:21	xeqi	callen: can you expand on pomegranate "sync with project.clj"
21:22	callen	xeqi: what it says on the tin. Like what Ritz can do.
21:22	callen	walks up the directory path until it finds a project.clj, checks the dependencies against what's in the classpath as well as the any possibly provided maven repos in the project.clj
21:22	callen	adds things that need added, removes things that need removed.
21:23	callen	`cbp: the pomegranate sync with project.clj or proxy+ thing would be good places to start since they're less fiddly than the other options.
21:24	`cbp	callen: if youre asking me how a proxy server works sure, if proxy is a noun for something else then nope :-P
21:24	callen	`cbp: hoo boy. You're in for it now.
21:24	callen	`cbp: http://clojure.org/java_interop#Java%20Interop-Implementing%20Interfaces%20and%20Extending%20Classes-%28%20proxy%20[class-and-interfaces]%20[args]%20fs+%29
21:25	`cbp	OH that proxy
21:25	callen	yeah, it doesn't support annotations.
21:25	callen	it needs to.
21:25	callen	so a library form of proxy+ with annotations is what's desired.
21:25	callen	this is so things like Netty can be properly wrapped.
21:26	`cbp	oh yeah i get it
21:27	callen	good news, a test case is easy enough to slap together
21:27	callen	bad news is, you'll probably end up balls deep in Clojure's Annotation*.java
21:32	`cbp	so the pomegranate stuff would let people add dependencies without leaving the repl? That sounds nice
21:34	callen	`cbp: well it already does that, but the idea is to not force them to use pomegranate's somewhat tedious and obviously stateful API
21:34	callen	and instead just make the workflow "edit project.clj => (pom/sync!)"
21:34	`cbp	just modify project.clj and come back to the repl?
21:34	callen	yep!
21:34	TEttinger	`cbp, I've done it. it's cool. but as I established earlier, I have no idea how to properly use a REPL...
21:35	callen	I'm tired of restarting my lein repl
21:35	callen	it's fucking annoying.
21:35	callen	I lose all my stuff and end up making temp buffers of intermediate state/code for testing in a REPL
21:35	callen	just so I can restart the REPL for dependencies
21:35	callen	I could use pomegranate, but I find the API tedious even if it works fine.
21:37	`cbp	ok i'll se what i can do :-)
21:46	technomancy	callen: I think maybe the ritz project.clj stuff exists in its own lib?
21:46	technomancy	alembic or something
21:46	technomancy	haven't gotten a chance to try it
22:40	cjfrisz	500-some people and we're all too shy
22:40	cjfrisz	Or else everyone else figured out all the secrets of programming, and I'm alone in my ignorance
22:41	cjfrisz	That is pretty much the scariest world I can imagine
22:45	cjfrisz	ping dnolen
22:46	eric_normand	callen: better: https://gist.github.com/ericnormand/6246733
23:12	hugod	alembic isn't quite the ritz project.clj stuff, though it does use lein, so it would be straightforward to add support for incrementally reloading the project.clj file. It is only really possible to add dependencies to the classpath though, not change them or remove them.