#clojure – 2013-08-12

2013-08-12

00:05	xeqi	blr: you could use standard ring sessions, or perhaps stateful sessions from lib-noir
00:08	BufferUnderpants	Alright, so I have this multimethod in Clojurescript...
00:09	blr	xeqi: ok, any caveats with ring sessions - would that be appropriate for storing an 150-200k deserialised document?
00:09	BufferUnderpants	And I'm trying to dispatch on type
00:10	BufferUnderpants	How do I do it for a string?
00:10	BufferUnderpants	The compiler is ominously outputting "WARNING: Use of undeclared Var my.namespace/String"
00:16	xeqi	blr: heh, that wouldn't work for a cookie store. might work for a memory store, but I don't know when sessions are cleaned up
00:16	blr	so I will probably need to use something like ring-jdbc-session and h2
00:17	xeqi	blr: or just save it in a db normally, and store an id to it in the session
00:17	blr	xeqi: I'm not legally allowed to persist this data
00:18	xeqi	:/
00:18	brehaut	hi blr
00:18	blr	so effectively I only want it to live as long as the api client's session
00:18	blr	hey brehaut :)
00:18	brehaut	blr: i havent looked at the scroll back in detail, but memcached?
00:19	brehaut	or is that still to persisted
00:19	blr	sure that would work actually
00:20	brehaut	blr: are you using some clojure at your place of employment?
00:21	blr	thinking about it :)
00:21	brehaut	nice :)
00:21	blr	have you used spyglass brehaut? api looks nice enough
00:21	brehaut	i havent even heard of it
00:21	brehaut	link?
00:21	clojurebot	unlink: and constantly is just a function that takes any arguments and returns whatever argument is given
00:21	blr	http://clojurememcached.info/articles/getting_started.html
00:22	brehaut	huh
00:24	brehaut	blr: that looks pretty straight forward
00:24	blr	yeah, I think I'll give that a shot, thanks
00:24	brehaut	blr: nice that connections arent dynamically bound
00:25	brehaut	and the clojurewerkz guys seem to do decent librarys
00:33	callen	brehaut: more importantly, documentation
00:34	blr	yes, we like documentation
00:43	dnolen	BufferUnderpants: js/String
00:44	dnolen	BufferUnderpants: you can't refer to global things outside of CLJS without js/foo
02:00	xsyn	Hi all
02:00	xsyn	what's the best way to run a jetty app in production?
02:00	xsyn	behind nginx?
02:55	papyrus	hi
02:56	papyrus	www.clojure.org is dead. why ?
02:56	papyrus	i want to get information about clojure , but i can't.
02:59	katratxo	papyrus: try without the www
02:59	papyrus	no. it does not work.
03:00	Foxboron	works here.
03:00	jack_rabbit	papyrus, it's fine here.
03:00	katratxo	papyrus: it works for me
03:00	papyrus	i am in korea.
03:00	jack_rabbit	papyrus, try a different DNS server.
03:00	jack_rabbit	And clear your DNS cache.
03:01	callen	papyrus: 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4
03:01	papyrus	thanks.
03:01	papyrus	i will try.
03:02	supersym	or opendns if you care about security/privacy a bit more ;0
03:02	supersym	screw up a smiley how typical monday morning
03:03	supersym	mornin'
03:04	jack_rabbit	supersym, looks like a monday morning smiley.
03:04	jack_rabbit	;0
03:04	jack_rabbit	^What I look like on Monday morning.
03:05	morrifeldman	Is it possible to get 'lein test' to run in color?
03:10	supersym	lol
03:11	supersym	morrifeldman: I doubt its built in natively but you could use something like https://github.com/ams-clj/clansi
03:17	morrifeldman	supersym: Thanks! clansi looks pretty cool.
03:48	H4ns	another beginner question: having a map {:a {:x 1} :b {:x 2}}, what, is the canonical way to retrieve a sequence of all values of :x (=> [1 2] here)?
03:50	TEttinger	,(map $(:x (val %)) {:a {:x 1} :b {:x 2}})
03:50	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: $ in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
03:50	TEttinger	,(map #(:x (val %)) {:a {:x 1} :b {:x 2}})
03:50	clojurebot	(1 2)
03:50	TEttinger	that's a pretty terse example
03:50	H4ns	nice, thanks!
03:51	TEttinger	if you wanted more self-explanatory, H4ns, there's ##(map (fn [kv] (:x (val kv))) {:a {:x 1} :b {:x 2}})
03:51	lazybot	⇒ (1 2)
03:52	TEttinger	mapping over a hashmap has each call go over both the key and the value as one thing, a MapEntry (called kv here, for key-value)
03:52	H4ns	TEttinger: #(...) is "equivalent" to (fn [%] ...), is that right?
03:52	TEttinger	yes
03:52	H4ns	i like that, thanks!
03:53	TEttinger	and it works with ,(#(+ %1 %2 %3) 5 7 9)
03:53	TEttinger	,(#(+ %1 %2 %3) 5 7 9)
03:53	clojurebot	21
03:53	H4ns	i like terse. when i want verbose, i can always return to common lisp :)
03:53	TEttinger	you can have a lot of arguments I think, not sure what the max is but you usually only need one or two
03:54	TEttinger	% is the same as %1
03:55	H4ns	TEttinger: thanks again! i can go for here. i'll probably ask some more beginner level questions until someone gets annoyed and tells me.
03:56	TEttinger	haha
03:56	TEttinger	`google 4clojure
03:56	TEttinger	&google 4clojure
03:56	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: google in this context
03:56	TEttinger	I don't know what the bots have for syntax
03:56	TEttinger	4clojure is great
03:57	TEttinger	simple-seeming clojure problems for beginners, and as you get better they get harder
03:58	H4ns	TEttinger: nice. putting that onto my list of things to do.
04:10	supersym	H4ns: I've found using LightTable (instarepl) quite useful as well, to learn clojure/syntax, since it visually remains (intermediate) values next to the expressions. The eval-as-you-type may be a bit annoying though :P
05:03	callen	I didn't have fantastic luck with LightTable, although it's nifty and I get the appeal of it.
05:03	callen	I'm actually still looking for a good solution to debugging in Clojure. The only thing really saving me is that Clojure code doesn't really commend the use of a debugger quite like a language that relies heavily on stateful mutation does.
05:04	Foxboron	shoudl write a stacktrace parser
05:04	Foxboron	should*
05:06	talios	IntelliJ's LaClojure has a responably good(ish) debug story the last I looked at it
05:06	talios	depending on your code I guess :)
05:07	supersym	callen: I get that... and admittingly, it (lt) does also hide/obfuscate some reader stuff from plain sight
05:07	ro_st	have you guys tried ritz?
05:08	ro_st	hugod gave a comprehensive demo of it at ClojureWest
05:08	ro_st	not sure if the vid is up yet
05:08	supersym	also typos become costly in time so you need to ns-unmap stuff or restart the JVM because your typo'd variables are in memory too :D
05:08	supersym	ro_st: nop
05:08	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
05:08	supersym	lol wut?
05:08	supersym	silly bot
05:09	benedikt	How do i get the ip adress of the connecting client in clojure.contrib/socket-server?
05:09	callen	supersym: I'm an emacs user so I don't really NEED LightTable, I just recommend it to people who are a little green and just want to tinker with some Clojure.
05:09	callen	I really just want a nice debugger for Clojure.
05:17	benedikt	and what is is the backlog parameter?
05:19	mercwithamouth	is anyone using light table on serious projects yet? I'm still a green clojure developer but so far i like it, at the very least the instarepl tool
05:19	benedikt	nevermind, that was straight from java (saw when i looked at the source)
05:20	ro_st	mercwithamouth: you might want to look at nightcode.info too
05:21	mercwithamouth	ro_st: =P not bad
05:21	mercwithamouth	i was going to say...one of the things that made me attempt clojure was the repl in the android store. do they plan on making either of these tools available on tablets? Not necessarily important but it would be cool
05:22	ro_st	i'm sure there are folks hard at work making clojure wholly available on android
05:23	mercwithamouth	Nice...
05:24	paomian	who use compjure
05:24	ro_st	lots of us!
05:24	ro_st	compojure, anyway
05:25	paomian	I can not understand it
05:26	callen	mercwithamouth: I'm pretty sure ibdknox is using LightTable while making LightTable.
05:26	callen	that's probably how he knows what to improve.
05:26	mercwithamouth	callen: very true...i have to say so far the user experience isn't bad at all
05:26	callen	it could fairly be called a non-trivial project, but ultimately the IDE/editor you use...really isn't important.
05:28	callen	using Node webkit on his part was a pretty clever coup for solving the "cross-platform app" problem without making something ugly like a Swing app.
05:29	mercwithamouth	callen: now that i agree on. i talked to him briefly when i first peeked at clojure and this chatroom
05:30	Okasu	supersym: "You fall without rising." -- bot said.
05:32	Okasu	callen: What do you use now as debugger for clojure? Ritz? It becames annoying quickly once you enable break-on-exception thing, but breakpoints doesn't work without it. :/
05:34	callen	yep, I tried nrepl-ritz and limit-break.
05:34	callen	both are broken in their special snowflake ways, making both essentially useless.
05:34	callen	I sincerely hope I never write code that truly requires a debugger in Clojure, because on that day, I will be fucked.
05:35	Okasu	callen: Ha-ha, true that.
05:35	ro_st	+1. write code that doesn't need debugging.
05:35	ro_st	not always possible, but doable a lot more than you'd otherwise think!
05:35	callen	er, yeah.
05:36	callen	I've definitely run into plenty of code that requires it and it's totally unavoidable.
05:36	callen	not but two weeks ago, I wrote a function that traversed the entire heap of its own process and used mem locations and type tags to track something down.
05:36	callen	in Python, that is.
05:36	ro_st	of course. i guess it depends entirely on what sort of thing you're doing
05:36	ro_st	if you're writing device drivers, you're going to need a debugger. a rest service, notosomuch :-)
05:37	callen	you'd think so, but when you're using hairy frameworks like Django...
05:38	callen	with LazyRefs and the like skulking about...
05:38	ro_st	ah, i'm talking about with Clojure
05:39	callen	oh sure.
05:39	ro_st	all bets are off when it comes to using sOOp
05:40	ro_st	sOOP
05:45	Apage43	and.. yeah
05:46	Apage43	my project now has a tiny embedded expression language
05:48	Apage43	instaparse made that easier than I expected
05:57	ro_st	nice Apage43
06:07	H4ns	is clojure.tools.trace the recommended way to trace?
06:10	noncom	if i want to have a record with mutable fields, do i simply make the fields atoms or agents?
06:11	Apage43	if you really need to, why not just put the record in an atom?
06:13	noncom	Apage43: my task is to simulate a big particles system. While in Java it would do with simple class and its instances, in Clojure I am still looking for a solution. For the needs of simulation I need the fastest way with the least footprint..
06:13	Apage43	do your particles affect each other?
06:13	noncom	so i think that a whole record in the atom will have a bigger footprint (esp. when scaled up to 1000000 record instances)
06:13	H4ns	when i added a new depencency to my lein project, can i fetch and load it without restarting my jvm?
06:14	Apage43	actually regardless of that
06:14	noncom	Apage43: yes, in general case particles must be able to interact with each other
06:14	ro_st	H4ns: look at github.com/cemerick/pomegranate
06:14	ro_st	noncom: this is probably one of the times it's probably best not to use immutable datastructures
06:14	Apage43	i'd put the whole particle system in an atom
06:15	ro_st	for performance reasons. if you do want to, though, an atom which gets updated once per 'frame' of computation
06:15	H4ns	ro_st: thanks
06:15	Apage43	right. So the renderer can (deref) the one atom that holds the whole system
06:15	ro_st	with the whole world in it. otherwise you're looking at the bazooka of mutation, STM with refs
06:15	Apage43	and has a snapshot it can work off of to draw with
06:15	ro_st	yes
06:16	noncom	well, yes, i definitely not need immutability in this very place of the system
06:16	noncom	if only clojure would let to jump away into the mutable world for in-place computations...
06:16	noncom	sigh.
06:16	Apage43	transient/persistent!
06:16	ro_st	noncom: nothing stopping you from doing that
06:16	Apage43	or just use java types
06:17	noncom	yes, here goes java.. transients are great, but not for cases like this one. If i am to use transients, then why not to fall back to raw nio buffers..
06:17	ro_st	there's nothing wrong with -local- mutation
06:18	noncom	i could store all the system i a couple of big nio buffers
06:18	Apage43	transient/persistent! are still useful, for the reason I mentioned aboe
06:18	noncom	ro_st: nothing wrong, except for that it is rather cumbersome in comparison to java's i = i++
06:18	noncom	omg i just wrote shit
06:19	noncom	but never the less, int a = 5; int b = a + 1; ... whats faster?
06:19	Apage43	you use transient/persistent! in your updating, and then your renderer can still take a snapshot of the system it knows won't get mutated under it
06:20	noncom	so ok, should i store the records in transient structures?
06:20	noncom	or only coordinates?
06:20	noncom	what about boxing/unboxing for numbers?
06:20	Apage43	no, you just write the update function you'd normally write if you weren't using transients
06:20	Apage43	then .. hm
06:20	Apage43	hard to explain transients
06:21	noncom	i know what they are..
06:21	noncom	but i am not accustomed with patterns of their use
06:21	Apage43	transients really shouldn't leave the function they're created in, typically
06:22	noncom	so a particle that has x, y and z coordinates
06:22	ro_st	noncom: i'd suggest solving your problem 'in the slow' with idiomatic clojure, and then bringing in defrecord / transients etc to improve the performance
06:22	noncom	i have the slow solution already, so it is the time
06:22	ro_st	and using a good old atom to store your world in from calc-step to calc-step
06:23	noncom	for me it came out that using a {} of atoms is faster than using an atom of {}
06:23	ro_st	ok. then you're in research land to find how defrecord, transients, or coding against java colls directly will help you
06:23	noncom	ro_st: yeah, that's what i was feeling like for the past couple of days...
06:24	noncom	still, tell me, would you work with all the records in a transient way or simpy work with a [] of x y z inside each record transiently
06:24	noncom	?
06:26	ro_st	to be perfectly honest, i don't know. i've never used records or transients before
06:27	noncom	yeah, me too have no big experience with those... just used transients a couple-o-times...
06:29	noncom	i would make a donation to anyone who'd write a good article on transients and boxing in clojure. and records for the second part...
06:33	Apage43	sketch of what I'm thinking https://www.refheap.com/17520
06:34	clgv	noncom: what exactly is your question on transients?
06:36	Apage43	derp derp
06:36	Apage43	edited some things i just forgot to type in there
06:51	mercwithamouth	are there any major differences between 1.3 and 1.5? I'm debating on getting the pragmatic programmers book...or should i go with the manning meaps? Right now i'm going through the oreilly book
06:52	Ember-	mercwithamouth: new libraries etc, core language is pretty much the same
06:52	Ember-	at least I don't remember any differences out of the blue
06:52	Ember-	there might be some
06:53	cemerick	mercwithamouth: reducers and reader literals are the biggest changes...which is to say, not much. I don't think I'd include the latter in a book, even today.
06:53	clgv	mercwithamouth: you could also read the O'Reilly one
06:54	Ember-	reducers are cool but their use scenario is pretty limited
06:54	mercwithamouth	Ember-: ok, as long as there haven't been major syntax/fundamental changes ..which i suppose would never be the case
06:54	Ember-	when they are useful, they really are
06:54	mercwithamouth	clgv: yeah i'm using the oreilly one now.
06:54	Ember-	mercwithamouth: no syntax changes or anything like that
06:54	Ember-	or well, usage of :use is today preferred to be done via :require
06:54	Ember-	but :use is still there
06:55	mercwithamouth	too rich for my blood at the moment, reducers
06:56	clgv	mercwithamouth: you can learn the basics with older books but need to get the updates after that...
06:58	Apage43	reducers basically fit where you're transforming a collection into a value (which may be another collection)
06:58	mercwithamouth	->> is the same as 'reduce'?
06:58	Apage43	emphasis on collection, not sequence
06:58	cemerick	Apage43: the tl;dr is that reducers superset transients
06:58	Ember-	mercwithamouth: no, that's used on function chaining
06:59	Apage43	cemerick: that's a good way of putting it
06:59	Ember-	(->> foo (bar 1)) is same as (bar 1 foo)
06:59	Apage43	I've got an app where I've done a bit of both, that I'm looking at, and the transient stuff could easily (and probably more cleanly) be changed to reducers
06:59	mercwithamouth	ahh i see
07:00	mercwithamouth	https://gist.github.com/jaycfields/3804058/raw/439d5f921d87764923ecc9f190006952a3594464/gistfile1.clj
07:00	Ember-	mercwithamouth: and you can pass as many function as you like after ->>
07:00	mercwithamouth	^ ...i like o_O;
07:00	Ember-	(->> foo (bar 1) (blergh 3)) is same as (blergh 3 (bar 1 foo))
07:02	Apage43	its there basically to move stuff around to be nicer to read
07:02	mercwithamouth	hmm i'll touch on that later. i'm jumping around. i just saw it in a blog post
07:03	mercwithamouth	but after you said chaining the example made immediate sense
07:06	noncom	Apage43: sorry, been away for lunch, now examining the code...
07:08	noncom	clgv: my question on transients: how to combine them with unboxed arithmetics so as to attain the highest calculation speed, the lesser footprint and transgress as little as possible from idiomatic traditional clojure syntax. and for the second part - extend these techiques to describe the usage of records in them
07:09	noncom	ideally i would like to get the same speed as in plain java but inside clojure (let it be in special places, but at least something)
07:09	clgv	noncom: oh. unboxed values are only possible in `vector-of` afaik.
07:10	noncom	for example, what about (unboxed ... ) for that, just like (transient!)
07:10	noncom	i guess not possible for tech reasons..
07:10	noncom	clgv: oh, sad..
07:12	noncom	Apage43: ok, i see the example.. the collection itself is transient but not the particles or numbers... that's at least something, but hard i crave on unboxed numbers..
07:13	Apage43	well you could use (vector-of)s instead of records for the same thing
07:16	clgv	noncom: well, in defrecords you can also have primitive values in the predefined attributes - but I double you get an unboxed value through keyword access - you'll need to use interop access
07:16	clgv	s/double/doubt/
07:17	Apage43	https://www.refheap.com/17522 ; as vector-ofs
07:17	noncom	when i used to program in java, i had to write "public" many times and i often missed the "l" letter for some reason...
07:19	clgv	well ordinary reduce will box the values again
07:20	noncom	Apage43: i guess i'll have to collect mutable numbers separately from other data and use the (vector-of) approach.. or explore the nio approach for collections.. there was vertigo by zach tellman, which handles nio-mapped structs...
07:21	clgv	noncom: you'll need primitive functions as well to avoid boxing
07:21	noncom	clgv: ugh, right...
07:22	clgv	noncom: and a reduce like macro that expands to a loop-recur. since anonymous functions cant be defined as primitive functions atm
07:22	noncom	so i may as well go back to java for all that part of my program..
07:23	clgv	noncom: depending on your current knowledge that might be the faster option.
07:23	noncom	and cleaner i think
07:24	noncom	clgv: do you mean that if my knowledge of clojure was better, i could avoid java fallback?
07:24	clgv	noncom: not encessarily. for example there is a lib to do fast computations on arrays which has the kind of macros I just mentioned
07:25	noncom	hiphip?
07:25	clgv	noncom: I just needed to google the name. might be the one. it was mentioned with core.matrix on the mailing list
07:27	clgv	noncom: yes, I think thats the one I meant
07:27	noncom	alright, i will do more explorations and measurements on this side, before going to java!
07:27	clgv	noncom: but arrays are mutable, so you have to be careful there in case you want to use immutable specific features of clojure
07:28	noncom	clgv: immutability is often of no need in complex calculation algos
07:29	noncom	but still concurrency... needs it..
07:29	clgv	noncom: I know. usually you can convert the overall result to an immutable data structure for the analysis phase...
07:34	mercwithamouth	how would one go about adding two lists??? (+ (list 1 2 3) list (4 5 6)) ???
07:34	lazybot	mercwithamouth: How could that be wrong?
07:34	mercwithamouth	???
07:34	lazybot	mercwithamouth: How could that be wrong?
07:34	mercwithamouth	thought so =P
07:36	clgv	,(map + '(1 2 3 4) '(5 6 7 8))
07:36	clojurebot	(6 8 10 12)
07:36	clgv	mercwithamouth: ^^
07:37	noncom	mercwithamouth: clgv: probably better use vectors, not lists?
07:41	clgv	noncom: what do you mean?
07:42	noncom	i mean that is not it better to use vectors for working with collections of numbers?
07:43	clgv	noncom: he wanted to know how to add a list of numbers hence the example.
07:44	cemerick	if you're using apply, map, etc., lists and vectors are equivalent
07:48	benedikt	How cam i can do (.start (Thread. (fn [] (do-stuff)))) in a lein-repl without importing it from Java first?
07:49	benedikt	s/cam/come
07:50	clgv	benedikt: you can write out the full class name. but maybe you just want to use (future (do-stuff))
07:50	benedikt	clgv: what?
07:50	benedikt	clgv: i'm asking why I did not have to import it from the java namespaces
07:51	clgv	benedikt: oops read it wrong. it is java.lang.Thread then. java.lang is imported automatically
07:51	benedikt	clgv: ah, that explains it. :)
07:51	benedikt	clgv: what did you think i was asking and what problem does using (future ..) solve?
07:52	noncom	future is same as Thread stuff you described. all clojure functions implement Runnable..
07:52	clgv	clgv: I thought you ask the negation and it might be java.util.concurrent.Thread or something ;)
07:52	clgv	I read it to quickly
07:53	clgv	benedikt: `future` does almost the same. except that it uses a threadpool with a fixed maximum number of threads
07:53	clgv	benedikt: and you have easier access to the return value of the calculation
07:54	benedikt	clgv: so you can use `future` instead of interoping with java to start a new thread?
07:54	Ember-	you really should use futures with concurrent programming
07:54	Ember-	in java too
07:55	Ember-	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/Future.html
07:55	clgv	benedikt: informally speaking yes. you should use future in clojure instead of creating a thread yourself
07:56	Ember-	and in Java you should use Executors... :)
07:56	Ember-	instead of firing of raw threads yourself
07:56	Ember-	of+f
07:56	benedikt	clgv: i'm sort of new to clojure yet and i learn stuff by hacking away with it informally, so informal explenations are fine.
07:56	clgv	benedikt: fine :)
07:56	Ember-	if you start your thread like that you lose all control of it from the outside world
07:57	benedikt	so instead of writing (.start (Thread. (stuff))) i should just do (future (stuff)) ?
07:57	Ember-	with futures you can do all kinds of stuff if you wish
07:58	Ember-	benedikt: (future (stuff)) will create a future, but does not launch it
07:58	clgv	benedikt: yes. you can do (let [f (future (do-stuff))] (println "wait for result - results =" @f))
07:58	Ember-	benedikt: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/future
07:58	clgv	Ember-: thats just plainly wrong!
07:58	Ember-	clgv: you are right
07:59	Ember-	I had to rethink, I was wrong with that statement
07:59	Ember-	it is launched
07:59	Ember-	had to actually launch REPL to check if what I just said was bullshit
07:59	Ember-	and it was
07:59	benedikt	I had skimmed through that documention. Ill spend more time on it tonight, when i'm not a my work and supposed to write corporate boring code.
07:59	Ember-	sorry :/
07:59	benedikt	Ember-: :) happens
07:59	Ember-	anyway, you can deference the future to get the return value
08:00	Ember-	which blocks until the thread is ready
08:02	Ember-	#@(future "wat")
08:02	Ember-	,@(future "wat")
08:02	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: no threads please>
08:02	Ember-	aww
08:09	Okasu	&,@(future "wat")
08:09	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! future-call is bad!
08:09	jtoy_	does rename-keys still exist in clojure? I cant seem to call it
08:09	benedikt	Ember-: and i cant deref a (Thread.) ?
08:10	Ember-	benedikt: no, Threads don't have a return value per se
08:11	Ember-	benedikt: see https://www.refheap.com/240eaef9a859ab1aae074a9a8
08:11	benedikt	Ember-: but a future has?
08:11	kmicu	"The brighter the green is, the more often the code has been run. Hovering over any of the lines will give you a tooltip with the absolute number of times."
08:11	Ember-	first call without dereferencing returns a future
08:11	kmicu	http://dominik.honnef.co/posts/2013/08/writing_go_in_emacs__cont__/
08:11	jtoy_	ah, its for set, how can I rename a key in a map?
08:11	Ember-	second one with dereferencing waits until the calculation is done and returns that
08:12	benedikt	Ember-: makes sense
08:13	Ember-	so you can just save your future into a var and read from there when you need it
08:13	jtoy_	nm
08:13	Ember-	and be certain that the thread has completed before you try to read from it
08:14	benedikt	Ember-: isn't this just consistent with derefing in clojure? the first example (refheap) just spins off the thread and lets it do it's thing, but when you derefed it waits (does it block?) until the thread is done to be able to retrieve the return value?
08:14	benedikt	so derefing "forces" it to return you the value, thus it makes (time) wait until it has completed it's task
08:15	clgv	benedikt: yes. you deref a future to get its value. your are free to choose when you want to deref it thoug
08:15	benedikt	clgv: so derefing can block, but if you deref at the appropriate time in code, it doesn't have to block
08:16	Ember-	yeah, kinda of :)
08:16	benedikt	i like clojure.
08:16	Ember-	if the thread has completed when you deref the future it will just return the value calculated
08:16	Ember-	if it is still pending then it blocks
08:17	benedikt	yeah, thats brilliant
08:17	Ember-	I guess most of the ppl on this channel like Clojure ;P
08:17	bosie	Ember-: i find it a shitty alternative to haskell really
08:17	Ember-	bosie: different languages, different purposes in many ways
08:17	Ember-	haskell embraces typing
08:17	benedikt	Ember-: you had to suspect that there were a few haskellers lurking around
08:17	bosie	Ember-: i am kidding
08:18	Ember-	bosie: aww, you trolled me!
08:18	benedikt	bosie: it's ok. i like haskellers too :)
08:18	bosie	benedikt: i wish i liked haskell but i never quite managed to wrap my head around it :/
08:18	bosie	benedikt: though thats my fault and not haskell's
08:18	Ember-	haskell is still on my "to-be-learned" list
08:19	Ember-	haven't done anything even semi-serious with it
08:19	Ember-	just random twiddling around
08:19	benedikt	bosie: same here. i attempted learning it three times now, i always get a little further. i think it's one of those things that will just "click" one day
08:19	Ember-	like lisps
08:19	Ember-	:)
08:19	Ember-	I remember when I got my "lisp enlightment"
08:19	clgv	benedikt: you can even ask the future whether it is ready to be dereferenced without waiting time `future-done?`
08:19	bosie	benedikt: the fact its not used commercially is a wee bit of a problem as well
08:20	Ember-	after getting the "lisp enlightment" suddenly all other syntaxes seemed stupid and cumbersome
08:20	benedikt	bosie: i write c# for a living. companies never use the fun stuff!
08:20	benedikt	clgv: nice!
08:20	Ember-	before that all those friggin' parenthesis made me insane!
08:20	bosie	benedikt: beats me doing java ;)
08:21	Ember-	benedikt: I write java and clojure for living :)
08:21	Ember-	most likely the next project is in java if I don't manage to convince the customer that it should be done with clojure :/
08:21	benedikt	Ember-: yeah. Im enlightened too.
08:21	bosie	Ember-: clj for whom?
08:21	Ember-	bosie: working at this company called Solita in Finland
08:21	benedikt	Ember-: are you finnish?
08:21	Ember-	yup
08:23	bosie	benedikt: "To ensure excellent service to all our customers, we expect our employees to be able to speak Finnish." guess that makes your question moot ;)
08:23	bosie	Ember-: that looks like a consultancy?
08:23	benedikt	bosie: i speak swedish and they speak swedish in finland
08:24	Ember-	bosie: yeah, kinda of. We do that stuff too
08:24	bosie	benedikt: how many non-finns speak finnish properly though?
08:24	sebastianb	not, perkele, one
08:24	Ember-	bosie: it's more like delivering projects to a customer and providing the all things needed for delivering a successful project
08:24	benedikt	bosie: one. Thats Linus Torvalds and he is already finnish.
08:24	sebastianb	(I'm sorry for that:P)
08:25	Ember-	like ux design, development, testing, IT infrastructure devops stuff and so on
08:25	hyPiRion	bosie: wrong question. How many Finnish speak English properly? :) I would be surprised if it's less than 95%
08:25	bosie	hyPiRion: if the company requires you to speak proper finnish...
08:25	bosie	Ember-: how is this not consultancy?
08:25	hyPiRion	oh, I didn't read that :(
08:26	opqdonut	there are a couple of finnish software companies that insist on using finnish
08:26	opqdonut	but most use english as their official language
08:26	hyPiRion	"Well, it's can't be harder than learning a new computer language"
08:26	bosie	hyPiRion: hah. i would bet good money i can learn haskell quicker and to a higher profeciency than finnish
08:27	opqdonut	a russian coworker of mine studied finnish for 3 years to pass the citizenship exam
08:27	Ember-	bosie: well yeah, I kinda see consultancy more of work where you send this one or several guys to tell how to do stuff, not actually do it
08:27	hyPiRion	bosie: me too. I bet I could learn D, OCaml, Haskell and APL before I would've learned Finnish properly.
08:27	bosie	Ember-: ok, not here i think. we do deliver ;)
08:28	Ember-	hehe, same here
08:28	Ember-	and we do that also with Clojure :)
08:28	Ember-	we've done two projects with clojure now, both successes
08:28	bosie	Ember-: in what area?
08:28	Ember-	was enough for our management, now we're going to do a lot more projects with Clojure
08:28	Ember-	bosie: web applications
08:28	bosie	Ember-: isn't a success in the consultancy business when you get follow up work cos your code was so buggy they had to get someone to fix all the bugs? ;)
08:29	Ember-	bosie: hehe, no. We don't do that kind of consultancy :)
08:29	Ember-	we believe that a well made project gives you new projects
08:29	hyPiRion	I think I do that, not intentionally though.
08:29	Ember-	and the better you do the project the less it will bother you later
08:30	bosie	hyPiRion: including bugs?
08:30	bosie	Ember-: if you get paid for the 'bother' though...
08:30	hyPiRion	bosie: https://twitter.com/hyPiRion/status/366344191166525442
08:30	hyPiRion	yes.
08:30	hyPiRion	including fixing them
08:30	bosie	hyPiRion: cant read twitter. i activated GSD
08:30	Ember-	bosie: yeah, but if the company believes in keeping the good guys in, then that's pretty short sighted :)
08:30	bosie	which is pure irony, now i just waste time on irc ;)
08:30	Ember-	since the good guys deliver quality and with quality comes the customers
08:30	hyPiRion	bosie: yet here you are, on IRC. :)
08:31	hyPiRion	"I love it when I introduce a new bug by fixing an older one. Good to know I won't be out of work for the rest of my life, though." - quote me
08:31	hyPiRion	yesterday
08:31	bosie	hyPiRion: ah, sorry to hear
08:31	Ember-	and hyPiRion about the amount of finns who can speak english decently: unfortunately it's not 95%, it's wors
08:32	Ember-	but of people actually using the internet (not just using the bank's web site) I think 95% is pretty accurate
08:32	bosie	Ember-: what do you reckon is the # for the two proper citis?
08:33	Ember-	citis?
08:33	hyPiRion	Ember-: Ah, right. Sounds like the same ratio as in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland etc.
08:33	Ember-	ah, amount of people in cities?
08:33	bosie	Ember-: cities
08:33	Ember-	hyPiRion: indeed
08:33	bosie	Ember-: how many people speak english in helsinki (you can include espoo)/turku/tampere
08:33	Ember-	ah...
08:34	Ember-	well, I think there it is pretty close to that 95%
08:34	Ember-	it gets worse when you go to countryside
08:34	Ember-	but not THAT much
08:34	bosie	ye
08:34	bosie	not like they see foreigners in sodankyla
08:34	Ember-	they do
08:35	Ember-	and each and every person under 35 years has had to learn at least 6 years of english in school
08:35	Ember-	in Finland
08:35	bosie	Ember-: same here but that really doesnt mean much
08:35	Ember-	and all our tv shows are subtitled, not dubbed
08:35	Ember-	thank god
08:35	Ember-	:P
08:35	bosie	Ember-: they couldn't order a coke in english, let alone keep a conversation going ;)
08:36	bosie	Ember-: i bet that helps more than school
08:36	Ember-	one couldn't be without the other
08:36	Ember-	drop either one and the amount of english speakers drop dramatically
08:37	Ember-	but hell, I should do some work too
08:37	bosie	hehe cu
08:37	Ember-	not just chat in IRC
08:37	Ember-	->
08:49	birdspider	hi, is there a equal/= function that produces false when comparing 'identical' vectors and lists ? i.e (=~ [] '()) false
08:51	llasram	birdspider: Not off the top of my head. Why do you want that?
08:53	noncom	birdspider: you can easily write one
08:53	birdspider	llasram, trying to solve http://www.4clojure.com/problem/65 with http://pastebin.com/es3i6k41
08:55	hyPiRion	birdspider: list? vector? map? set? can be used
08:55	hyPiRion	although not pretty
08:55	hyPiRion	*elegang
08:55	birdspider	hyPiRion, not in the example I posted
08:56	birdspider	hyPiRion, see "Special Restrictions"
08:56	llasram	birdspider: I think the point of this is to empirically test how core abstraction functions act differently on the provided input
08:56	llasram	Remember that all the Clojure core structures are immutable (at least in public interfaces)
08:56	llasram	So you can "mutate" them however you want without being impolite about your imput
08:56	llasram	s,imput,input,
08:57	hyPiRion	birdspider: ah. Logged in, the way llasram explained it is how I solved it.
08:58	birdspider	hyPiRion, ah my bad, didn't think login was required to see the problems
08:58	hyPiRion	birdspider: it's not, but it's required if you want to see your own solution :)
08:59	hyPiRion	I just looked at the problem, not its constraints at first.
08:59	TimMc	Those restrictions miss some predicates.
09:01	llasram	TimMc: I don't think the problem is intended for people who already know enough Clojure to work out which predicates they can use to "cheat" :-)
09:01	TimMc	Fair, although sequential? was included in the list of restrictions.
09:02	hyPiRion	llasram: psh, 4clojure is a great way to learn how reify works. At least you could do that in the past.
09:02	IamDrowsy	and it's fun to look at the different "hacky approaches"
09:03	TimMc	Does this problem also fall to the shitty map literal solution?
09:03	TimMc	Ah, nope.
09:30	supersym	hmm... I wonder what fun things I could do with clj + e.g. http://www.webkb.org/bin/categSearch.cgi?categ=%23dog&recursLink=%3C
09:45	H4ns	clj-time or something else for date+time handling (printing and parsing)?
09:47	ambrosebs	Does a CLJS deftype have any meaning if it is referenced like a var? cljs.core.Subvec vs. cljs.core/Subvec?
10:06	mercwithamouth	so clojure people..if you could make up a checklist of things to go through to learn most languages...what would you write down?
10:20	rbxbx	mercwithamouth: ethos, syntax, semantics, tooling, testing
10:20	wakeup	hi all
10:20	Okasu	mercwithamouth: Learn Ada, C, Scheme, Haskell. Voilà you know most of the languages outthere without even touching them.
10:20	rbxbx	mercwithamouth: not sure what level of granularity you're looking for
10:21	wakeup	I am fighting with clojure.tools.logging and log4j.
10:22	wakeup	How do I make logging to print all levels to mx nrepl buffer?
10:22	wakeup	tried binding force, tx-agent-levels...
10:22	wakeup	guess nrepl ignores my log4j.properties, which is ok
10:24	mercwithamouth	rbxbx: i'm more so looking for a guide line to become functional in most languages...a blueprint to learn.
10:25	mercwithamouth	i use several languages but i'm just comparing my method of learning to other peoples
10:25	wakeup	mercwithamouth: learn common lisp, after that other languages tend
10:25	wakeup	to be easy
10:25	wakeup	haskell if you want to go deep into dunctional territory I guess.
10:26	wakeup	also is there a prefered configuration file library for clojure?
10:27	Okasu	wakeup: Wakeup, CL isn't functional at all.
10:27	mercwithamouth	preferred configuration file library.... was that question for me?
10:27	wakeup	no, not exclusively
10:27	mercwithamouth	oh ok
10:28	wakeup	Okasu: No, but people have implemented a lot of functional stuff using it
10:28	Okasu	wakeup: You can do the same using C, what was your argument again?
10:29	wakeup	when you do functional stuff in CL, you also get to know how its implemented
10:29	kmicu	detects Defending Preferred PL Syndrome.
10:29	wakeup	Okasu: It's a really good language noone should skip, and as far as I understood he was asking for interesting languages to learn.
10:31	hyPiRion	Well, Haskell is good if you want to constrict yourself to functional programming.
10:31	Okasu	It's a language one should skip if one wants to lean functional programming. Better stick to Scheme. CL -- standardtized mess of all lisp dialects around 90s.
10:31	kmicu	"It's not Lisp that sucks, it's Common Lisp that sucks."
10:31	Okasu	kmicu: Indeed.
10:32	wakeup	lol
10:32	kmicu	Okasu: Scheme indeed.
10:34	wakeup	Don't listen to the religious guys mercwithamouth, just look into what people use for real work and pick whatever you think is interesting. But don't buy into the "X sucks" attitudes, these guys have no idea.
10:35	wakeup	For instance, I am programming clojure not because I want to, but for a client. While I'd prefer other languages, clojure is a very good choice for this project.
10:36	kmicu	After I heard from Erik Meijer that PHP is interesting, I do not believe Paul Graham about CL suckiness.
10:36	kmicu	Just kiddin'. Only trolling ;]
10:37	Okasu	kmicu: Well, maybe PHP is interesting as fractal of bad design? :D
10:38	kmicu	"but if you look at it from a little bit of a distance most languages are more similar unless you go to say Prolog or Datalog or Haskell. But the rest, F#, Scala, C#, JavaScript, PHP, they are all languages that have objects, that have mutable state, that have closures, Clojure is maybe somewhere between Haskell and that"
10:38	kmicu	http://www.infoq.com/interviews/meijer-monads
10:46	wakeup	So how do I make clojure.tools.logging log to my nrepl buffer?
10:49	dnolen	ambrosebs: prefer the second one, there is no differences in meaning and there are fewer promises about the first one.
10:51	mdrogalis	wakeup: Been wondering that one for a long time. I think it has to do with the fact that tools.logging uses agents under the hood.
10:51	wakeup	And how do I direct clojure.tools.logging to a file?
10:51	mdrogalis	Agents stdout isn't on the main thread.
10:51	mdrogalis	wakeup: Use a log4j config file.
10:52	wakeup	okay
10:52	wakeup	I need to decide that at runtime though (if I want to log to stderr or a file)
10:52	wakeup	now don
10:52	mdrogalis	Uhh..
10:53	mdrogalis	Once at start up time? Or does it change a lot?
10:53	wakeup	no once at startup
10:53	mdrogalis	wakeup: Use pre-hooks, put them in their own files. One batch of prehooks for stderr logging, another batch for file logging. https://github.com/MichaelDrogalis/dire
10:54	mdrogalis	Import whichever batch of prehooks based on the build, or whatever main file you pick.
10:54	wakeup	hmm no that won't do
10:55	mdrogalis	Can you explain a bit more, maybe?
10:56	wakeup	Well the specification says "a command line option to direct logging output to a given file."
10:56	mdrogalis	(if (file-logging? args) (require 'hooks))
10:56	mdrogalis	In some ideal world. :)
10:57	gdev_	Has the notion of logs as data still so new that even clojurists default to log files?
10:58	gdev_	s/Has/is
10:58	wakeup	gdev_: sshhh!
10:58	gdev_	Sorry =_=
10:58	wakeup	mdrogalis: what keeps me from getting and BINDING the logging output stream?
10:59	wakeup	gdev_: I wouldn't even bother with logging, but this is work for a client
10:59	wakeup	and I say that as someone running a webserver that doesn't log by design
10:59	mdrogalis	gdev_: It's clearly a school assignment.
11:00	mdrogalis	Ah, nevermind
11:00	mdrogalis	Didn't read up - sorry.
11:00	wakeup	no it's not ;)
11:00	wakeup	I don't really get why I need this dire thing to direct logging output.
11:01	gdev_	When I tutor java students I still make them think about data and events instead of lines if text and files
11:01	mdrogalis	wakeup: It was just a suggestion. You don't have to use it to accomplish your goal.
11:03	wakeup	Just a second: (defn fooo [arg] "bar") <- "bar" is the docstring right?
11:03	Fer`	gdev_: do you log in edn or something?
11:03	wakeup	or does it have to be (defn foo "bar" [arg]) ?
11:04	mdrogalis	wakeup: 2nd way is correct
11:04	wakeup	fuuuuu
11:04	H4ns	"why not alienate the CL suckers if one can?" :D
11:04	krejzywafel	yes yes yes
11:04	wakeup	yeah right
11:06	gdev_	It helps prevent narcissistic systems so yes edn is preferred.
11:06	wakeup	as if the weird braces and destructuring syntax wasn't butthead enough
11:06	wakeup	and then: WITH-OUT-STR
11:06	H4ns	wakeup: i'm not sure that this is the right place to bitch about clojure, though :)
11:06	wakeup	true
11:06	Fer`	gdev_: you don't run into any problems when the file is really big?
11:06	wakeup	tried that last week
11:07	krejzywafel	X is fuuuuu, cuz it is not like CL, true story...
11:08	wakeup	krejzywafel: there is a certain element of surprise when a "lisp" does every conceivable lispy thing a bit different
11:08	H4ns	i must say i find clojure pretty slick. today i used clojure.data/diff and it is teh rocks
11:08	nDuff	wakeup: haven't you had this exact same rant here earlier?
11:08	krejzywafel	wakeup: fuuuuuu
11:08	H4ns	wakeup: #lispcafe
11:08	nDuff	wakeup: it turned into a flamewar then too. No need for a rerun.
11:08	wakeup	I am gonna stop now
11:09	wakeup	but just for my defense: always keeping it civil, kust said it's surprising
11:09	noncom	if i'm making a Date related library for ClojureScript, is it fine to base it on the js/Date or is that class a bad thing, like the default Java DateTime is adviced to be replaced with JodaTime in usage?
11:09	H4ns	nDuff: when he's not ranting about clojure here, he's ranting about cl in #lisp :)
11:09	wakeup	H4ns: so not true
11:10	wakeup	I have given that up years ago
11:10	wakeup	but I did suggest porting CL in #cat-v.org
11:10	noncom	is there an advices substitution for javascript/clojurescript?
11:10	wakeup	fun times...
11:10	mdrogalis	H4ns: I was about to laugh if you said he alternates between ranting about Clojure & ClojureScript
11:10	wakeup	after all they did port python
11:10	krejzywafel	wakeup: just against your defense - you did not just said it's suprising, you just said it's "fuuuuuuu"
11:11	wakeup	krejzywafel: that was actually directed at me having noticed this very late
11:14	gdev_	Fer I don't log to an edn file, it's just what I serialize the data in
11:15	gdev_	Edn in action
11:15	noncom	my main concern in creating a clojurescript date library is to allow a good work with to/from string conversion and using formats
11:16	noncom	or maybe there is one existing?
11:17	mdrogalis	noncom: Does clj-time not port?
11:31	H4ns	say if i have a map {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} and i want to convert that into {:x 1 :y 2} (i.e. create a new map with a few values from the old map, stored under new keys), is there a built-in operation for that? i.e. (remap {:a :x :b :y} {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})?
11:34	hyPiRion	,(-> {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} (select-keys [:a :b]) (clojure.set/rename-keys {:a :x :b :y}))
11:34	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set>
11:34	mdrogalis	H4ns: select-keys combo'ed with `rename`, I think it is
11:34	mdrogalis	hyPiRion: Nice :)
11:34	hyPiRion	,(require 'clojure.set)
11:34	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
11:34	hyPiRion	Boo
11:34	mdrogalis	nope.jpg
11:35	H4ns	nice, thanks!
11:35	hyPiRion	,(require '[clojure.set])
11:35	clojurebot	nil
11:35	hyPiRion	,(-> {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} (select-keys [:a :b]) (clojure.set/rename-keys {:a :x :b :y}))
11:35	clojurebot	{:y 2, :x 1}
11:35	hyPiRion	there.
11:35	wakeup	Whats LET* in clojure?
11:35	hyPiRion	wakeup: let
11:36	wakeup	let evaluates/binds sequential?
11:36	hyPiRion	yes
11:41	wakeup	java.lang.IllegalStateException: replace already refers to: #'clojure.string/replace in namespace [...]
11:41	mdrogalis	refer-clojure
11:41	mdrogalis	Check it out
11:41	wakeup	What did I do? (tried to :use clojure.string)
11:42	justin_smith	wakeup: do you have a function called replace?
11:42	hyPiRion	wakeup: you should try to use namespaces, e.g. (:require [clojure.string :as s]), then do s/replace or similar.
11:43	hyPiRion	otherwise names from the :use'd namespaces clash with others if they have the same name.
11:43	mdrogalis	wakeup: Also, use :require. Avoid :use.
11:44	gvickers	why not destructure it. (def n {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}) (def newmap (let [{x :a y :b}n] {:x x :y y}))
11:46	H4ns	gvickers: i want to avoid repeating the keys. it seems i need to write a select-rename function.
11:51	hyPiRion	H4ns: (defn select-rename [map keymap] (-> map (select-keys (keys keymap)) (clojure.set/rename-keys keymap))) ?
11:51	hyPiRion	I think that would do what you'd like
11:51	justin_smith	,(let [m {:a 0 :b 1 :c 2}] (reduce (fn [m' [k k']] (assoc m' k' (k m))) {} [[:a :x] [:b :y] [:c :z]]))
11:51	clojurebot	{:z 2, :y 1, :x 0}
11:52	justin_smith	rename-keys, nice, I wasn't aware of that one
11:55	noncom	mdrogalis: afaik clj-time is based on JodaTime, and there is no equivolent for JavaScript
11:55	seangrove	Wow, people building inheritance systems on lein's profiles
11:56	krejzywafel	I'M COBOL PROGRAMMER, I DO NOT LIKE CLOJURE'S LOWER CASE STYLE. UPPERCASE IS BETTER IMHO.
11:57	hyPiRion	seangrove: I wouldn't be surprised if lein profiles are turing complete.
11:57	justin_smith	hyPiRion: ~(they are)
11:57	`fogus	and self-aware
11:58	noncom	krejzywafel: AND WHAT YOU USE IN COBOL INSTEAD OF HYPHEN-CASE? rEVERSEcAMELcASE OR PLAINOLDGOODONEWORDCASE?
11:58	justin_smith	(if that was too opaque, you can put arbitrary code inside a syntax-quote, and access the full clojure language)
11:59	seangrove	technomancy is going to have to answer for some of the sins his work has enabled
11:59	seancorfield	nearly all of my project.clj files have some ~(embedded code) in them
12:00	`fogus	seancorfield: You must have larger build reqs than me because I've never had the need. What kinds of things require that?
12:01	seancorfield	we determine heap size from an env var or default to 512MB, we also add/remove several JVM opts based on which platform we're on and/or which environment tier we're in
12:02	seancorfield	it's just easier to do that than to have separate profiles for each env
12:02	technomancy	seancorfield: for the platform stuff please take a look at https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/pull/1228
12:02	justin_smith	In my case it is for passing in env vars so that a lib can see credentials, without having to store the credentials in git.
12:02	`fogus	seancorfield: Oh so we do have similar requirements... but I do that in Bash scripts. ;-)
12:02	seancorfield	we try to have all our stuff auto-self-configure based on environment info
12:02	technomancy	would like to get feedback on that from someone who would actually use it
12:05	wink	.oO( skynet )
12:08	mdrogalis	noncom: Ah, right right.
12:12	seancorfield	i'm at the courthouse right now for jury service so i'm kinda restricted on what i can work on :)
12:21	wakeup`	How do I check a reader for end of file?
12:22	mdrogalis	wakeup`: What kind of reader?
12:22	wakeup`	IN
12:23	mdrogalis	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2034059/how-to-read-lines-from-stdin-in-in-clojure
12:24	wakeup`	I take that as a "not at all"?
12:25	tbaldridge	wakeup`: on many platforms (JVM included) the proper way to check for EOF is to read until read returns -1
12:25	tbaldridge	wakeup`: what is consuming the stream?
12:26	wakeup`	tbaldridge: read
12:26	tbaldridge	wakeup`: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/io/Reader.html#read()
12:29	tbaldridge	wakeup`: for example the clojure LispReader wraps all this and allows you an option to either return a user defined value on EOF or to throw an error.
12:30	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: I'm having a great time with core.async now that I understand it. Really, really well done man.
12:32	tbaldridge	mdrogalis: thanks! I can't take all the credit though. Rich, dnolen, alex miller, ghadi and many others did a ton of work too.
12:33	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: A good effort :)
12:37	konr`	Is there any already-existing function that given [:foo :foo :bar] returns something like {:foo 2 :bar 1}?
12:38	tbaldridge	,(doc frequencies)
12:38	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a map from distinct items in coll to the number of times they appear."
12:38	konr`	thanks!
12:38	tbaldridge	,(frequenceis [:foo :foo :bar])
12:38	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: frequenceis in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
12:38	tbaldridge	and I can't spell
12:38	tbaldridge	,(frequencies [:foo :foo :bar])
12:38	clojurebot	{:foo 2, :bar 1}
12:49	seangrove	Is wolfes being flooded, or flooding?
12:55	rasmusto	wolfes is doing something (or maybe comcast is)
13:18	bhauman	wolfes must work at a lot of different coffee shops
13:21	technomancy	join/part hiding is a beautiful thing
13:22	bhauman	technomancy: currently looking for config setting in ui. or rather is it some esoteric irc command?
13:23	justin_smith	bhauman: with erc it is a config
13:23	technomancy	bhauman: varies by client
13:23	bhauman	justin_smith: technomancy: thanks guys
13:35	TimMc	technomancy: I use a ridiculously simple irssi script called "smartnoise" that hides joins/parts for people who (I think) haven't spoken recently.
13:37	kmicu	Same here http://dev.weechat.org/post/2008/10/25/Smart-IRC-join-part-quit-message-filter
13:38	bhauman	I have one more simple irc question that I''ve been meaning to ask. How do you do those cool status messages?
13:38	justin_smith	bhauman: /me ...
13:39	justin_smith	or is that not what you mean?
13:39	bhauman	justin_smith: thanks man
13:39	callen	I use /me everywhere, including outside of IRC.
13:39	bhauman	i bet
13:40	callen	bhauman: you should look things up more.
13:40	callen	satisfying one's curiosity is good :)
13:40	justin_smith	I first picked it up in a mud, and used it accidentally found out it worked in irc
13:40	bhauman	thanks for the tip
13:40	callen	ahhh MUDs.
13:41	callen	those taught a lot of people to program.
13:41	bhauman	callen: I use clojurescript, thus I have a tendency to look things up
13:41	callen	scripting the grinding phase of the game :)
13:42	justin_smith	yes, I started with that, then they saw how good my scripts were and elevated me to a builder, then saw the scripts I was putting on mobs and made me a developer for the mud engine
13:49	TimMc	justin_smith: Haha, nice.
13:49	scottj	bhauman: link to blog (not post) where that will appear?
13:49	gvickers	ditto^^
13:50	bhauman	http://rigsomelight.com
13:50	scottj	bhauman: thanks
13:50	bhauman	scottj: gvickers: if you want to read it now I'd love some people to give me feedback
13:54	scottj	bhauman: no thanks
13:54	bhauman	scottj: no worries
13:55	benkay	lysis
13:55	benkay	(wrong term)
13:58	francis_wolke	Could someone please explain to me how exactly we are seeing a 4 in the return list in this form? (let [form '(/ 4 4)]
13:58	francis_wolke	[(eval form)
13:58	francis_wolke	(apply (first form) (rest form))
13:58	francis_wolke	(apply / '(4 4 ))])
13:58	francis_wolke	I
13:58	francis_wolke	I'm quite confused... :/
13:59	dnolen	,(apply '/ [4 4])
13:59	clojurebot	4
13:59	francis_wolke	thanks.
13:59	hiredman	the symbol / is not the same as the function that the symbol / resolves/evals to
14:00	justin_smith	,(apply 'anything [4 4])
14:00	clojurebot	4
14:00	justin_smith	,(apply '☃ [4 4])
14:00	clojurebot	4
14:01	konr`	haha
14:01	justin_smith	,(apply '☃ ['❄ '☕])
14:01	clojurebot	?
14:02	justin_smith	clojurebot appears not to be utf8 clean
14:03	TimMc	,('+' 0 0)
14:03	clojurebot	0
14:04	tbaldridge	,(get '+' 0 0)
14:04	clojurebot	0
14:05	tbaldridge	justin_smith: function calls to symbols get translated to get ^^
14:05	justin_smith	,('♟ '♞ '♛)
14:05	clojurebot	?
14:05	justin_smith	just like keywords
14:06	kmicu	,(apply (comp (partial (comp '+ '*' 'a''a) '+)) '(ha))
14:06	clojurebot	nil
14:06	tbaldridge	I really really want to write a variant of clojure.core that uses unicode symbols for everything. APL meets Lisp or something like that
14:06	tbaldridge	maybe for april 1st next year
14:06	justin_smith	,('a '{a 1 b 2})
14:06	clojurebot	1
14:06	technomancy	tbaldridge: april 1 is less than 8 months away
14:06	justin_smith	nice
14:07	konr`	a chess game that uses chess unicode characters would be cool, too. (♞ :d3)
14:08	justin_smith	yes, that would be a nice little clojure based dsl
14:08	`fogus	tbaldridge: A unicode Clojure with ubiqiutous use of -> would be pretty frickin sweet.
14:09	tbaldridge	`fogus: that's kindof like bbloom's factjor
14:10	bbloom	i do not advocate unicode abuse :-)
14:10	justin_smith	basically you could just have a namespace with lots of lines that looks like (defmacro λ [bindings & body] `(fn ~bindings ~@body))
14:10	bbloom	despite years of trying, i still don't know my greek letters
14:10	hiredman	tbaldridge: have you seen pl?
14:10	gvickers	you have to know that one..
14:10	technomancy	justin_smith: nitpick: what is "domain-specific" about such a language?
14:11	justin_smith	chess?
14:11	justin_smith	that is a domain, no?
14:11	technomancy	oh, I thought you were talking to tbaldridge; nm
14:11	`fogus	bbloom: I don't know Greek letters either... but snowmen I know.
14:11	hiredman	feh, I don't think I have a way to load pl in to clojurebot's evaluator anymore
14:11	etehtsea	where lazy-seqs was moved from contrib?
14:11	justin_smith	if in emacs: c-x 8 <return> is your friend with unicode
14:11	bbloom	`fogus: clearly all the PL researchers should just perform all of their typing judgements with snowmen and bishops
14:11	justin_smith	also things like lambda tab-complete from beginning or end
14:11	tbaldridge	hiredman: I've seen it referenced, never used it
14:11	`fogus	The only problem is, what function does snowman get? I was thinking `persistent!` might be appropriate.
14:12	justin_smith	with 8
14:12	justin_smith	err
14:12	justin_smith	☃ as thaw, the inverse
14:12	hyPiRion	justin_smith: you don't need to define λ as a macro to show it as λ in Clojure files
14:12	justin_smith	sure
14:12	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/odds-and-ends/blob/master/functional.clj#L114-130
14:12	justin_smith	that was a random example of uniclojure
14:13	justin_smith	though showing as unicode is probably more useful than requiring unicode input
14:13	TimMc	I'll just note here that Swearjure is uniclojure-compliant.
14:14	ro_st	loved that lightning talk :-)
14:14	ro_st	actually really impressive how far along that got!
14:14	TimMc	ro_st: gfredericks' talk?
14:14	ro_st	yes, at CW '13
14:14	hyPiRion	TimMc: To some extent. λ isn't legal, although ☃ probably is.
14:14	TimMc	Hmm, true!
14:15	TimMc	I guess we can't allow letters from any language.
14:16	hyPiRion	Not that it would help us much to allow them though.
14:17	TimMc	Disallowing ' and ! as being "letters" in the romanization of Xhosa and other "click languages" would be unfair, however.
14:17	konr`	you could also allow only roman numerals
14:18	TimMc	Eh, we don't need no stinkin' numerals.
14:18	hyPiRion	+ * - and / is enough for me
14:19	patchwork	Will we ever free ourselves of the chains of ascii?
14:19	patchwork	: (
14:20	technomancy	according to vernor vinge, no
14:21	TimMc	For code? No.
14:21	patchwork	Ha! even in the quick, they speak ascii
14:21	technomancy	27th century technicians will wonder why dates are measured from the moon landing, and then realize it's actually a few months later
14:21	TimMc	(Well, I probably won't live long enough to be proven wrong, at least.)
14:22	konr`	There was a russian keyboard with leds on the keys which would make using unicode symbols viable
14:22	wink	the optimus?
14:22	konr`	yeah, that one!
14:23	TimMc	Í ðóñ'þ ßéé åháþ'ß åëóñg åíþh þhíß µéþhóð. °¥Ö
14:23	wink	us mechanical keyboard freaks would probably pass on it for some decent feeling :P
14:23	gvickers	$1500 dollar keyboard
14:23	patchwork	Seriously, and their processors will just be mind-boggling wrappers around an x86
14:23	callen	technomancy: hahahaha
14:24	hyPiRion	no wonder there won't be any singularity if this is true.
14:24	wink	technomancy: look, everytime I'm using the elevator in my building (it's been built in 1967) I have to think of Blaine the Mono from the dark tower lately. Like.. technology not touched for centuries or millenia that still works...
14:24	technomancy	callen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Deepness_in_the_Sky#Interstellar_culture
14:25	callen	technomancy: I read A Deepness in the Sky. Loved it.
14:26	bhauman	this all make me think of Bret victor's latest talk.
14:26	callen	I need a brain implant that filters out anything to do with Bret Victor.
14:30	dark_element	anybody here used this http://nakkaya.com/static.html
14:31	callen	dark_element: nah, I wrote my CMS mostly using the stack from Luminus. Looks neat though.
14:31	callen	I wonder how quickly it compiles compared to Jekyll?
14:32	dark_element	callen, I can't get it working it yet.
14:32	dark_element	callen, there is one more similar project https://github.com/liquidz/misaki
14:33	callen	I just use Varnish if it's truly static.
14:33	callen	then I can write my code in the same way as usual for the CMS, but it gets cached to death :)
14:33	callen	I might be weird though.
14:33	callen	dark_element: do you just want to make a blog?
14:34	justin_smith	callen: give the whole thing a name like carbonite and you could probably convince other people to do it that way
14:34	wink	there's also http://algernon.github.io/madness/
14:34	callen	justin_smith: not_sure_if_serious.jpg
14:34	dark_element	callen, yup.
14:35	callen	dark_element: oh hum. Assuming the use of Clojure is a specific requirement, does it need to be an SSG?
14:35	callen	SSGs can be really awkward at times.
14:36	dark_element	SSG?
14:36	callen	static site generators.
14:36	ucb	what's the best way of depending on a jar that may not be available in clojars nor maven central? i.e. the code is in github
14:37	technomancy	ucb: why is it not on clojars?
14:37	ucb	technomancy: it's not mine; it's a Java/.NET lib I want to wrap
14:37	dark_element	callen, i started with octopress today and later on went on trying out SSGs built using clojure.
14:37	ucb	I suppose I can upload a version to clojars under my username namespace
14:37	technomancy	ucb: you should open a bug report if it's not in a repository
14:37	ucb	technomancy: good point
14:38	wink	maven ALL the jars!
14:38	hyPiRion	more like deploy
14:38	zphds	Hey guys, I am coming from the world of Python and new to Clojure. Can someone take a look into this piece of code and tell me why it's writing an empty zip archive?
14:38	zphds	http://cljbin.com/paste/520926a8e4b0b4dec3dca30b
14:38	amalloy	~map
14:38	clojurebot	map and the other sequence functions used to be lazy, but with the advent of chunked sequences, may or may not be lazy, consult your local ouija board
14:39	amalloy	technomancy: good guess
14:39	hiredman	technomancy: we all did
14:39	technomancy	heh
14:39	amalloy	i actually guessed "for is lazy"
14:39	bbloom	zphds: what they are trying to say is that you're ignoring the return value of the functional "map" call, which, even if you weren't ignoring it, is problematic when wrapped up with side effects.
14:39	bbloom	(doc doseq)
14:39	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs & body]); Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by \"for\". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil."
14:40	bbloom	zphds: try that^^
14:40	justin_smith	quickest fix for the code is mapv for map, after that there is doall wrapped around map, then there is refactoring to a deseq
14:40	justin_smith	*doseq
14:40	justin_smith	that being the best option imho
14:40	hiredman	amalloy: for use by someone new to the language seems unlikely
14:40	functionform	why are the array set functions typed but not the get?
14:40	zphds	bbloom: is it more of a code-smell issue or does it have any other adverse effects?
14:41	bbloom	zphds: laziness & side effects just don't mix. if you need side effects, use an eager operation, such as doseq
14:41	bbloom	it's an easy fix: (doseq [photo photos] …body of your map function here...)
14:41	zphds	bbloom: I am ashamed to admit that I didn't know that map was lazy
14:41	bbloom	zphds: never be ashamed while you're learning!
14:42	technomancy	everyone gets bitten by that early on =)
14:42	bbloom	yup
14:42	bhauman	hell yep
14:42	zphds	heh
14:42	zphds	:D
14:42	dnolen	zphds: and laziness burns even experienced Clojure users
14:42	bbloom	it's especially easy to get bitten by it since it's not fully lazy. it's actually "non-strict" meaning it's SOMETIMES lazy
14:42	bbloom	where sometimes == always except in 30-ish item chunks
14:42	zphds	whoa
14:42	TimMc	&(take 4 (map println (range 60)))
14:42	lazybot	⇒ (012345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728293031nil nil nil nil)
14:42	bbloom	and so when it sometimes happens eagerly, you can't tell it sometimes happens lazilly
14:43	zphds	is it also bad if I have side effects as part of my 'let'?
14:43	zphds	like what I did with mkdirs inside a let?
14:43	dnolen	bbloom: "sometimes" being range and vector
14:43	bbloom	zphds: if your code needs side effects, then let and do are the best places to put them
14:43	bbloom	both of those forms let you explicitly sequence operations
14:43	technomancy	zphds: that's fine. it's best if you bind to _ for side-effects; makes it clear the return value isn't used.
14:44	zphds	bbloom: ah
14:44	bbloom	technomancy: unless your side effect has a return value :-P
14:44	technomancy	(assuming you mean the [] part of a let)
14:44	llasram	zphds: There's also `doto`, depending on what exactly you're doing
14:44	zphds	I kinda figured _ is for such things
14:44	ystael	related question: is there a tool I can use as a 'laziness monitor'? that is, to answer the question "I think this code might be less than maximally lazy somewhere, but where?"
14:44	bbloom	zphds: just by convention though. _ isn't special in any way
14:45	ystael	other than watching memory meters
14:45	zphds	llasram: yeah, I played around with doto initially, but that io/copy in the middle is ruining the sequence
14:45	zphds	bbloom: right, I kinda use that in my python code as well, to tell that this var is just there and won't be used anywhere else
14:46	ystael	I had trouble with OOM due to this during the ICFP contest this weekend until I remembered that mapcat is a little bit eager
14:46	dnolen	ystael: that's cool that you gave ICFP a shot, you didn't try integrating w/ external SMT solver? Sounds like Z3 was popular?
14:47	ystael	dnolen: no, i used the maximally stupid generate-and-test approach
14:48	ystael	which actually did surprisingly well
14:48	zphds	well doseq didn't help
14:49	zphds	it's something to with 'data' which is a byte array
14:49	dnolen	ystael: nice, yeah some folks tried core.logic, which is fun but I think a bad fit for the problem description out of the box - but writing a proper CLP(BV) extension to core.logic is probably a bit too much work given the time alloted :)
14:53	ystael	dnolen: wish i had learned how to use the reducers library ahead of time, i suffered most from lack of parallelism
14:53	ystael	(and poor time management, but that's to be expected with a baby in the house)
14:53	bbloom	dnolen: (acronym-expand-1 "BV")
14:54	dnolen	bbloom: BitVector
15:01	zphds	woohoo.. got it working
15:01	zphds	here is the working snippet
15:01	zphds	http://cljbin.com/paste/52092c79e4b0b4dec3dca30c
15:01	zphds	thanks guys!
15:02	bbloom	zphds: see also ##(doc with-open)
15:02	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([bindings & body]); bindings => [name init ...] Evaluates body in a try expression with names bound to the values of the inits, and a finally clause that calls (.close name) on each name in reverse order."
15:03	zphds	bbloom: I attempted with-open, but the [o (output-stream path)] has to be the first pair?
15:03	justin_smith	zphds: also, hanging close braces only make the code harder to read for anyone familiar with a lisp family language
15:04	bbloom	move the .mkdirs outside of the let. defn's body is in an implicit do
15:04	zphds	bbloom: so I couldn't set things up for the with-open block in the order I wanted
15:04	bbloom	then let photos & fullpath
15:04	bbloom	then with-open out and zout
15:04	bbloom	then doseq & doto
15:04	zphds	ah
15:04	callen	zphds: props for abusing let already. Took me ages to figure out you could do that.
15:04	zphds	that's a neater idea
15:05	zphds	callen: haha
15:06	technomancy	zphds: usually closing an "outer" stream will close the inner one too
15:06	callen	MFW: my coworkers are more excited about Datomic than Clojure.
15:07	zphds	technomancy: ah ok… that one flew right by me
15:07	wink	callen: #firstworldproblems :P
15:07	ro_st	good instinct. Datomic is -ing awesome.
15:07	callen	wink: we are in the tar pit of Python. It's awful.
15:07	wink	lol
15:07	callen	we can't even seem to reliably package our shit up for deployment.
15:07	ystael	callen: isn't that a snake pit
15:07	ToxicFrog	callen: could be worse. You could be in the tar pit of C++.
15:07	callen	ystael: python wasn't named after a snake.
15:07	ToxicFrog	Where the tar is actually made of razorblades.
15:07	wink	or C#
15:07	callen	ToxicFrog: I'd prefer that.
15:07	callen	ToxicFrog: because then at least I'd get some fucking respect.
15:07	zphds	are there any online resources that details the conventions and good practices?
15:07	ystael	callen: yes, yes, i am aware of that. it was a pun of admittedly mediocre quality.
15:08	callen	"oh you're a C++ programmer? Let me give way then..."
15:08	ToxicFrog	wink: IME C# is honestly not that bad. I'd take it over C++ and Java, at least.
15:08	wink	zphds: https://github.com/bbatsov/clojure-style-guide for example
15:08	zphds	wink: cool
15:08	callen	that guide isn't wholly accurate or credible.
15:08	ToxicFrog	callen: yes, but what does respect get you when you pay for every day with your sanity and/or liver?
15:08	callen	please do not recommend batsov's guide as if it were authoritative.
15:08	wink	ToxicFrog: it's not such a bad language. but I still have no good experiences :P
15:08	ToxicFrog	...I feel like there's a version of the Chemical Worker's Song that applies to C++ programming kicking around in my head somewhere.
15:09	wink	callen: "for example". but ok
15:09	wink	zphds: see above. But I find it better than nothing at the start
15:09	ystael	ToxicFrog: isn't the best feature of C# called "F#" ?
15:10	TimMc	zphds: As far as indentation goes, just trust Emacs.
15:10	zphds	wink: cool…
15:10	wink	callen: well do you have better resources? :)
15:10	stuartsierra	zphds: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Library+Coding+Standards
15:10	zphds	TimMc: yep! with nrepl it just kicks ass
15:10	TimMc	nooooo
15:10	ToxicFrog	ystael: I haven't actually used F#
15:10	TimMc	stuartsierra: I hate that that page recommends map destructuring in args. ;_;
15:10	TimMc	*restargs
15:10	ToxicFrog	I have high hopes for clojure-clr, though
15:11	wink	.oO( how to incite a peaceful channel in 3 easy steps. style guide, languages, editors )
15:11	zphds	wink: haha
15:11	zphds	and all it takes is a newbie to do that :)
15:11	TimMc	It's pretty hard to get this channel up in arms about editors, thankfully.
15:11	wink	zphds: your're just a catalyst :P
15:12	ro_st	wink: wait until you see what happens when someone mentions the CA
15:12	zphds	what's a CA :D
15:12	TimMc	haha
15:12	Fer`	yogthos: ping
15:12	wink	I'd say Certificate Authority, but apart from leiningen and clojars I can't imagine what he meant :P
15:12	yogthos	Fer`: howdy
15:13	wink	hint: ssl in java is painful
15:13	Fer`	yogthos: hello, in selmer is {% for x in foo.bar %} not supported?
15:13	TimMc	wink: Let's just pretend that's what CA refers to here. :-P
15:13	TimMc	Yes, very good.
15:13	yogthos	Fer`: uhm should be...
15:13	zphds	oh
15:13	zphds	and going by the naming convention
15:13	Fer`	yogthos: maybe I have an error in my code I'll run more tests
15:14	zphds	I should be renaming make-archive into make-archive!
15:14	cespare	is that the same C and A as in CLA?
15:14	zphds	since I have seen that '!' usually means that there is a side effect lurking beneath
15:15	cespare	haha do you seriously have to mail this thing?
15:15	ro_st	no! shush!
15:16	ro_st	don't say it!
15:16	yogthos	Fer`: so this definitely works (render " {% for x in foo.bar %} {{x}} {% endfor %}" {:foo {:bar (range 5)}})
15:17	callen	Fer`: post code please?
15:17	callen	Fer`: Refheap.com
15:17	wink	as someone totally oblivious... was clabango too slow? or why selmer? (I take it it's newer?)
15:18	Fer`	yogthos: this doesnt seem to work (selmer.parser/render "{%for x in foo.0%} {{x.id}} {%endfor%}" {:foo [{:id "s"} {:id "a"}]})
15:18	TimMc	wink: s/editors/templating libraries/, actually
15:18	callen	I've explained this before, but Clabango was too slow and the owner wasn't interested in maintaining it.
15:18	wink	callen: thanks
15:18	callen	TimMc: there's peace in the land. Selmer exists.
15:21	yogthos	Fer`: that wouldn't no :)
15:21	yogthos	Fer`: foo.0 is a map
15:22	yogthos	Fer`: this is fine (selmer.parser/render "{%for x in foo%} {{x.id}} {%endfor%}" {:foo [{:id "s"} {:id "a"}]})
15:22	yogthos	Fer`: this is also fine (selmer.parser/render "{{foo.0.id}}" {:foo [{:id "s"} {:id "a"}]})
15:23	wink	sigh wish I'd not used a now-nonmaintained static site generator
15:23	Fer`	oh im stupid i should have a nested vector
15:23	bhauman	publishing my next core.async post http://rigsomelight.com/2013/08/12/clojurescript-core-async-dots-game.html
15:24	yogthos	Fer`: no worries :)
15:25	yogthos	bhauman: nice!
15:25	ro_st	69
15:25	ro_st	is that a high score, bhauman?
15:25	Fer`	yogthos: what about this: (render "{%for x in foo.0%} {{x.id}} {%endfor%}" {:foo [[{:id "s"} {:id "a"}]]})
15:25	Fer`	i fear i'm being stupid again
15:25	ro_st	bhauman: i very quickly wanted diagonal matching :-)
15:25	bhauman	yogthos: thanks,
15:25	bhauman	ro_st: the original doesn't have it and it makes the game to easy
15:26	bhauman	the post is on HN now
15:26	ro_st	makes sense :-)
15:26	Jblaze	Hello, I am trying to dump a blob from a mssql to file I am able to query and get a resultset but cannot figure out how to right it to bytes any insight?
15:27	Jblaze	(write)
15:27	yogthos	Fer`: that might be a bug :)
15:28	Fer`	yogthos: aw :-( what do you recommend i should do. Flatten my vectors a bit?
15:28	ro_st	Jblaze: tried (spit "filename" (pr-str data)) ?
15:29	yogthos	you could do this (render "{%for x in foo%} {% for y in x %} {{y}} {%endfor%} {%endfor%}" {:foo [[{:id "s"} {:id "a"}]]})
15:29	yogthos	it's a bit uglier :)
15:29	ro_st	bhauman: this looks great. i've added it to my CSP queue
15:29	bhauman	ro_st: thanks :)
15:29	ro_st	or is that to my CSP channel?
15:30	yogthos	Fer`: I'll take a look at supporting that though
15:31	Jblaze	yes it truncates
15:31	tbaldridge	bhauman: what is the reasoning behind using all the put! vs >! inside a go?. And why use only one channel for the render pipeline, instead of one between each step?
15:31	Jblaze	unfortunately
15:31	Fer`	yogthos: Looking forward to it ty
15:34	bhauman	tbaldridge: I am assuming you are talking about the get-drawing fund. I am just using go as a promise in this case
15:34	dnolen	bhauman: wow impressive post, no atoms!
15:35	bhauman	dnolen: thanks, i really appreciate that
15:35	bhauman	hn votes appreciated ;)
15:35	bbloom	dnolen: hehe. is that the new purity test? replace all your atoms w/ loop/recur? (inc erlang)
15:36	bbloom	(inc erlang)
15:36	lazybot	⇒ 2
15:36	tbaldridge	erlang: "we don't have state...or actually we do, we just hide it inside closures where you can't get at it..."
15:37	callen	pretty much ^^
15:37	bbloom	so i've been thinking more about the "wither actors" thing
15:37	bhauman	tbaldridge: i am still trying to parse your render pipeline question. My answer is probably that I was just going for a straight forward implementation
15:37	bbloom	i agree that queues (and hence channels) are preferable
15:37	bbloom	however, i don't think channels are more primitive, at with respect to concurrency instead of distribution
15:38	bbloom	i feel like actors : lists :: channels : abstract data types
15:38	bbloom	+1 of indirection = /2 headaches
15:39	bbloom	at with => at least with
15:40	tbaldridge	bhauman: just a thought, you could keep the system almost exactly as you have it, but implement it as a dataflow graph, might be a bit easier to understand the code that way.
15:42	bhauman	tbaldridge: meaning use more channels to separate concerns?
15:43	bhauman	tbaldridge: actually not picking up what you are getting at
15:44	ToBeReplaced	so... how long does it take before i should be able to post issues on jira?
15:45	tbaldridge	bhauman: I haven't spent a ton of time in the code, but things like select-chan seem a bit odd to me. We're going to read a message from the chan, check it with pred, then throw it out?
15:45	bhauman	Yep that
15:45	tbaldridge	IMO, that sounds like someone is putting something into a chan that doesn't belong there.
15:46	bhauman	tbaldridge: Yep that was used to bleed off events
15:47	tbaldridge	I think you could get rid of that with a combination of sliding buffers and/or more channels.
15:48	bhauman	tbaldridge: there is a state problem when someone completes a circuit. And I need to wait until they let go of the screen to consume the draw end event.
15:50	bhauman	tbaldridge: I agree, I am going to revisit it, drawing is difficult and I used it to handle edge cases
15:50	dnolen	bhauman: typo, s/cheetsheet/cheatsheet
15:50	Cho0fool	callen is installing yesod(haskell web frame work) now http://www.qadate.com/images/haha-nelson.jpg
15:51	callen	I do that about once a month to check to see if cabal is still broken.
15:51	callen	still broken, for any wondering.
15:51	callen	Cho0fool: see you in a month!
15:53	Raynes	callen: They're working on it though.
15:53	Raynes	The sandbox stuff.
15:53	Raynes	The only problem with the sandbox stuff is that compiling Haskell takes forever.
15:53	callen	I was using cabal-dev and it still broke on the first build for a single package.
15:53	Raynes	Elixir compiles shit at the speed of sound cuz parallel.
15:54	ystael	Raynes: thank you for clojail! clojail.core/thunk-timeout was just what the doctor ordered yesterday
15:54	Raynes	You're welcome.
15:55	Raynes	I wonder if thunk-timeout will work forever.
15:55	bhauman	dnolen: fixed
15:55	Raynes	They deprecated .stop ages ago, but haven't actually removed it. Do they ever remove things? Ever?
15:55	ystael	Raynes: well, for my use case, it only needed to work until 8 PM yesterday :D
15:56	glosoli	Are there some very popular commercial products written in Clojure ? Just got curious, not that I am judging the language by the products it powers
15:56	callen	glosoli: Hotelicopter, before they got bought out.
15:56	callen	Weatherbill
15:56	dnolen	bhauman: really really fantastic post, read it more or less all the way through. Will give a more in depth review later.
15:56	callen	a rather large dating site network. a geneaology service.
15:57	bts-	flightcaster is clojure i think?
15:57	bhauman	dnolen: lookin
15:57	bhauman	dnolen: forward to it
15:57	glosoli	thanks ! :)
15:58	pmonks	Weathertron (though ClojureScript on mobile)
16:02	H4ns	sorry for another beginner q: how can i construct a map from an array so that the keys are the values from the array and the values are the results of calling some function with the key as argument?
16:04	patchwork	H4ns: (into {} (map (fn [k] [k (f k)]) array))
16:05	patchwork	Where `f` is your function
16:05	H4ns	patchwork: ah, so simple! thanks a bunch!
16:06	patchwork	Yep! clojure is beautiful
16:08	Raynes	(into {} (map (juxt identity f) array))
16:08	Raynes	patchwork: ^
16:08	Raynes	:
16:08	Raynes	:3
16:08	yogthos	Fer`: so yeah that was a bug in parsing the keys, I got it fixed and will push out a new version tonight
16:08	ystael	everything's better with juxt
16:08	llasram	(inc Raynes)
16:08	Raynes	~just
16:08	lazybot	⇒ 34
16:08	clojurebot	excusez-moi
16:08	Raynes	~juxt
16:08	clojurebot	juxt is the bestest option though if it doesn't weird you out
16:09	hyPiRion	(zipmap array (map f array)) ;; duh.
16:09	H4ns	it weirds me quite a bit
16:09	patchwork	juxt! I should have known if I wasn't using juxt there was something wrong
16:09	ToxicFrog	Yeah, zipmap was my first through
16:09	ToxicFrog	*thought
16:09	Raynes	hyPiRion: You're a bad person.
16:10	H4ns	woha, juxt.
16:10	H4ns	thanks.
16:10	zphds	maybe another topic that can incite some fights in this channel, :), but what is the 'flask microframework' in the clojure world?
16:10	zphds	lib-noir + compojure?
16:11	glosoli	what are some best resources around cljs ?
16:11	yogthos	zphds: http://www.luminusweb.net/
16:11	piranha	what's fn*? :) Just saw it in (macroexpand '#(...))
16:11	zphds	yogthos: cool, let me take a look...
16:15	ztellman	piranha: it's one of Clojure's fundamental forms
16:15	hyPiRion	Raynes: I know.
16:15	Fer`	yogthos: kk
16:15	tcrawley	dnolen: you should pressure bhauman to come to the conj
16:15	ztellman	try macroexpanding (fn [[x y]]) to see how it differs from the normal fn
16:15	piranha	ah ok
16:16	piranha	ztellman: thanks! I see now :)
16:18	gtrak	piranha: if you're really curious: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L46
16:19	piranha	so it's actual function, unlike 'fn', which is a fancy wrapper around it
16:19	piranha	hehe, the same with other destructuring forms, like loop or let
16:19	cespare	ztellman: I don't get it.
16:19	cespare	(macroexpand '(fn [x] (+ x 1)))
16:19	cespare	(fn* ([x] (+ x 1)))
16:19	gtrak	it's the bottom level that the compiler deals with, after macroexpansion
16:20	piranha	cespare: (macroexpand '(fn [[x]] x))
16:20	tbaldridge	,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(fn [[x y]] (+ x y))
16:20	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
16:20	tbaldridge	,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(fn [[x y]] (+ x y)))
16:20	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
16:20	piranha	gtrak: yes, I see. It was interesting to see (macroexpand '(let [[x] [1]] x))
16:21	gtrak	macroexpand is also part of the compiler
16:21	gtrak	it's recursive, outer-first
16:21	piranha	sure :)
16:22	piranha	(fn* ([p__4116] (let* [vec__4117 p__4116 x (clojure.core/nth vec__4117 0 nil)] x))) - are there any optimizations performed further? I.e. dropping first part of let?
16:23	tbaldridge	there's no point, the JVM jit will remove the vec__4117 p__4116 part
16:24	piranha	I see
16:24	piranha	well this is fun stuff :)
16:24	bbloom	i really wish there was a symbolic representation of the jvm byte code & i could do the moral equiv of a macroexpand on it
16:25	piranha	too bad compiler is in java, it's a bit harder to read than clojure :-)
16:25	tbaldridge	bbloom: there is
16:25	bbloom	piranha: the clojurescript compiler is written in clojure. many important differences, but the structure is illuminating, none the less
16:25	hiredman	bbloom: well, you mean javap?
16:25	ztellman	bbloom: https://github.com/gtrak/no.disassemble
16:26	ztellman	it's really, really useful in certain situations
16:26	bbloom	oh awesome
16:26	hiredman	no.diassemble seems kind of meh
16:26	bbloom	i wish it was in an sexpr form, but i guess i can settle on this
16:26	gtrak	it's pretty trivial, I'll be the first to admit :-)
16:26	hiredman	way too much, you can capture the bytecode without all that
16:26	ztellman	hiredman: it only gives you a pretty-printed version
16:26	ztellman	which is all the Eclipse debugging library gives you, unfortunately
16:27	bbloom	still, cool stuff!
16:27	ztellman	I've toyed with trying to dig deeper, but it's been enough for every situation I've needed to know about the bytecode
16:27	hiredman	I have a replacement for eval somewhere that captures the bytes of any generated classes
16:27	piranha	bbloom: but there is a GSoC about doing actual clojure compiler in clojure, right?
16:27	hiredman	so you don't need an agent, etc
16:27	bbloom	piranha: yeah, i believe Bronsa is working on that. my understanding is that his plan is to 1-for-1 port the java & worry about making it more idiomatic later
16:27	bbloom	so it's likely to be some pretty ugly clojure
16:28	gtrak	hiredman: yea, this was in lieu of modifying clojure itself, or the classloader code.
16:28	bbloom	maybe even uglier than the original java! :-P
16:28	piranha	:))
16:28	gtrak	it's really a brute-force approach
16:28	ztellman	I dunno, I just use it as a default plugin, and don't think about it
16:28	ztellman	I'm wasting literally megabytes of memory, I know, but somehow I survive
16:28	bbloom	i haven't needed to tune perf down to that level yet, thankfully
16:28	gtrak	ztellman: I was worried about this, I guess it's not a problem in practice?
16:29	dnolen	bhauman: HN is so weird, your post got ringed
16:29	bbloom	dnolen: vote ring detection is a serious issue
16:29	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/6214648
16:29	futile	kill inheritance plz
16:29	bhauman	dnolen: yeah iot's down at 42 now
16:29	ztellman	bbloom: you discover some interesting things using it
16:29	futile	kill complexity plz
16:29	futile	kill over-engineering plz
16:29	dnolen	bbloom: as in it doesn't make any damn sense
16:29	ztellman	for instance, the emitted bytecode for (if (< x y) …) and (if-not (> x y) …) are completely different
16:29	bbloom	i worked in an office with ~30 startups coming and going. the "PLEASE VOTE UP MY STORY" emails from newbie startup founders were basically a biweekly occurrence
16:29	ztellman	the former is much, much more efficient
16:30	bbloom	so posting your story to the same small group, like here in #clojure, a few times in a row is a surefire way to get a story killed
16:30	futile	kill the prevalent attitude of late that highly encourages and praises all these things plz
16:30	futile	fin.
16:30	hiredman	ztellman: is the jitted asm any different?
16:31	bhauman	dnolen: are you sure it was ringed?
16:31	ztellman	hiredman: I'm pretty sure it would be, unless the JVM is much more clever than I realized
16:31	gtrak	hiredman: nice, only downside is you still have to eval stuff manually, that big a deal really.
16:31	dnolen	bhauman: I can't imagine it getting flagged, it was in the top 10 5 minutes ago.
16:31	gtrak	not that big a deal, really*
16:31	dnolen	bhauman: you rarely see drop offs like that w/o ringing
16:32	ztellman	hiredman: actually, no, I'm sure. The latter was way slower.
16:32	dnolen	bhauman: of course there could be secret group of Clojure hating flaggers?
16:32	ztellman	dnolen: or Clojure hating mods?
16:32	hiredman	ztellman: sure, and you are sure it was jitted in your tests?
16:33	ztellman	hiredman: I used criterium, I think that absolves me of those sorts of concerns
16:33	hiredman	I mean, I am not doubting, just curious
16:33	ztellman	but I wasn't looking at JIT debug prints or anything
16:33	hiredman	looking at the implementation of if-not it looks like it would be pretty bad
16:33	bhauman	dnolen: well it's still getting votes and climbing
16:34	bbloom	HN is a lost cause, i'm pretty sure pg has given up on it at this point
16:34	ztellman	hiredman: in the slow case, it was a function invocation and a boolean object comparison
16:34	hiredman	extra function call to not, not has it's own if, etc
16:34	ztellman	yes
16:34	bbloom	sshhh nobody tell the hacker community about ltu
16:34	piranha	bbloom: well it seems there is still nothing better at this point...
16:34	Bronsa	bbloom: i am actually making it clojure-ish as I write it :)
16:34	ztellman	and that's not something that would ever happen in Java, so they probably didn't optimize it
16:35	bhauman	dnolen: perhaps no comments in an hour is an valid algorithm
16:35	piranha	bbloom: ltu is less general
16:35	bbloom	piranha: of course.
16:35	ztellman	hiredman: though I think if-not could just invert the clauses, right?
16:35	ztellman	no need to actually call 'not'
16:36	tbaldridge	ztellman: whats this gonna do then? (if-not (mypred? 1 2))
16:36	hiredman	ztellman: maybe, also as people don't depend on macro expansion ordering
16:36	hiredman	as long as
16:36	ztellman	tbaldridge: there are no clauses in that, I'm confused
16:37	hiredman	(if-not (foo? 1 2) :a :b) => (if (foo? 1 2) :b :a)
16:37	tbaldridge	oh, nvm, I understand, just re-order the if/then
16:37	ztellman	exactly
16:37	bts-	and if there's no else clause, insert nil for the missing clause
16:38	ztellman	that would fix the unpredictable performance in the (if-not (< x y) …) case
16:38	ztellman	but it's not clear if anyone but me cares
16:38	ztellman	and I can manually reorder, I guess
16:40	hyPiRion	ztellman: well, it's essentially just changing `(if (not ~test) ~then ~else) to `(if ~test ~else ~then), isn't it?
16:41	hyPiRion	(in the if-not macro)
16:41	ztellman	hyPiRion: sure, but I'm not hopeful w.r.t. the chances of a patch on if-not making it into Clojure proper
16:42	ztellman	maybe someone with more juice could give it a shot
16:43	bbloom	hyPiRion: that's a broken macro
16:44	bbloom	ugh wait no, nevermind
16:44	ztellman	haha, I was going to say, I don't see it
16:44	bbloom	sorry, javascript on the brain atm
16:47	TimMc	s/ on if-not// :-(
16:49	zerokarmaleft	bbloom: LtU is safely of such high caliber that I don't think scrubs would even bother commenting with pretense
16:49	TimMc	Although apparently the unsigned-bit-shift-right patch might be getting some love, since it is interfering with Clojure-in-Clojure data structures.
16:49	amalloy	ztellman: start by submitting a patch that turns 'not into an inlining macro that knows about how and, or, <, >=, and all those guys are related, so that it emits simplified forms. then the smaller patch to make if-not less silly will look more friendly
16:50	hiredman	start by turning if-not in to a macro that uses a SSA representation to examine the predicate...
16:51	bbloom	zerokarmaleft: i've been attempting to grok everything i see on LtU. it's taken me a few years, but i finally feel like anything that is over my head upon first glance is now at least approachable within an hour or two
16:52	ztellman	TimMc: https://github.com/ztellman/primitive-math problem solved
16:53	zerokarmaleft	bbloom: I have a bit more Benjamin Pierce to read on that score
16:53	ztellman	seriously though, the amount of grief I saved myself by just creating simple wrappers for static Java functions is immense
16:53	ystael	(inc ztellman) ;; starred, thank you!
16:53	lazybot	⇒ 6
16:54	hiredman	it would be really nice if the compiler's set of intrinsics was extendable
16:55	ztellman	hiredman: with the escape hatch of just using java, why does it need to be?
16:55	bbloom	maybe there needs to be a java* primitive :-)
16:55	hiredman	or if numbers.java wasn't so gross, or the inlining and intrinsic stuff was more consistent
16:55	ztellman	bbloom: you've seen alan dipert's javastar library, right?
16:56	bbloom	lol of course that exists.
16:56	hiredman	ztellman: because I don't want to write java
16:56	bbloom	so extensible compilers is a bit of a hobby interest of mine
16:56	ztellman	bbloom: I think it beats out my local mutable variable hack for sheer hilarity
16:56	hiredman	I want a core.logic rules and data driven generation of numbers.java and intrinsics.java
16:57	bbloom	hiredman: have you seen tbaldridge's ssa+datalog stuff? fun things coming :-)
16:57	ztellman	hiredman: totally understandable, but sometimes it's easier to cut the gordian knot with https://github.com/ztellman/primitive-math/blob/master/src/primitive_math/Primitives.java than by throwing more code and abstractions at the problem
16:57	hiredman	bbloom: I've not
16:57	bbloom	tbaldridge: chime in here w/ a link for hiredman
16:57	hiredman	ztellman: sure
16:59	hiredman	ztellman: and the end product of what I want would I think be similar, a bunch of static jvm methods, but machine generated ensuring consistency of what is inlined and what isn't, what has intrinsics and what doesn't etc
16:59	ztellman	hiredman: also a pony
16:59	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/Archimedes/blob/master/src/Archimedes/foo.clj
17:00	bbloom	ztellman: i don't think it's an impossible request
17:00	hiredman	actually, that is the old bad one
17:00	tbaldridge	hiredman: I haven't worked on it in some time (got sidetracked with core.async) but this is a simple type inferencer for SSA code https://github.com/halgari/mjolnir/blob/master/src/mjolnir/ssa_rules.clj
17:00	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/Archimedes/blob/master/src/Archimedes/bar.clj
17:00	ztellman	bbloom: definitely not impossible, but anything in that vein needs to either do an end run on the compiler, or we need to wait for CinC
17:01	hiredman	so it generates a bunch of method signatures right now
17:01	ztellman	either will take a while
17:01	tbaldridge	core.async trivia.... The SSA dispatch system is extensible. So you can do stupid crazy stuff like this with it: https://github.com/halgari/async-bench/blob/master/src/async_bench/core.clj#L108
17:01	bbloom	ztellman: oh yeah, CinC is the gating factor for additional compiler cleverness. i'm sure Bronsa will accept some help :-)
17:02	hiredman	Mjöllnir is a great word, I have my irssi setup to replace h a m m e r with Mjöllnir every time I type it
17:03	ztellman	don't get me wrong, I would love to see all this stuff, and I think we've made some great progress towards an extensible compiler in the last year
17:03	technomancy	I named my guitar that in high school
17:04	bbloom	tbaldridge: can you elaborate on what's going on there?
17:04	ztellman	but CinC was discussed at the first Conj, and it has yet to emerge as anything other than "a thing we could do, sometime"
17:04	TimMc	ztellman: Hmm, nice! (primitive-math)
17:04	bbloom	tbaldridge: you extended the SSA with a generators/yield operation?
17:05	ztellman	I'm interested in approaches that aren't gated on CinC that give comparable results, albeit with less elegance
17:05	tbaldridge	bbloom: right, there's nothing hard-coded in the ioc_macros.clj file for core.async. Everything is handed to the processors at macro expansion time. This means you can define yield/<!/>! etc.
17:05	hiredman	ztellman: I don't the changes I am thinking of to numbers.java would require CinC
17:05	bbloom	tbaldridge: awesome. i was trying to make some sense of ioc_macros & see how extensible it was. i was curious if i could use it to implement non-determinism
17:05	ztellman	hiredman: oh, maybe I was misunderstanding, you want to modify numbers.java itself?
17:06	bbloom	tbaldridge: looks like i could
17:06	bbloom	tbaldridge: looks like this yield is as general as the one described in here: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4349
17:06	tbaldridge	bbloom: this is a simpler example, but done with an "identity" function. That is, it does a state-machine translation, but with no change in the resulting semantics: https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/1aff841e2d1f5cd7b35b2ea232d10187ce268888/src/test/clojure/clojure/core/async/ioc_macros_test.clj#L14
17:07	TimMc	ystael: Did you ever figure out why unchecked-add was giving you overflow exceptions?
17:07	tbaldridge	So most of the core.async code is tested against this "runner" macro. it really simplifies testing alot
17:07	TimMc	'cause that was pretty freaky
17:07	bbloom	tbaldridge: that's awesome
17:07	ztellman	TimMc: yeah, I used it to make https://github.com/ztellman/immutable-bitset/blob/master/src/immutable_bitset.clj
17:07	hiredman	ztellman: generate a replacement numbers.java (and maybe intrinsics.java, and maybe generate jvm bytecode directly, no .java) using data describing numeric types, the operations on those types, and rules for what kind of operations are allowed on what types, and what return values are allowed for what types
17:07	bbloom	tbaldridge: i really like the idea of viewing computation effects as pausing a sub process & communicating with the parent process
17:08	TimMc	ztellman: Immutable bitset... a.k.a. BigInteger? :-D
17:08	bbloom	tbaldridge: fits my brain much better than the delimited continuations view of the world. shift/reset is just mind melting, even though i can generally understand them given enough time to work it out on paper
17:08	ztellman	TimMc: leaner in the sparse element case, and actually looks like a Clojure set
17:09	tbaldridge	bbloom: yeah, I'm interesting in exploring how this sort of thing could be used in more bizarre examples, for example, parsers. I wonder how many monads we can kill in the process :-P
17:09	TimMc	Hmm, cool.
17:09	ztellman	also has a transient variant, so you're not forced to clone the bit array each time
17:09	bbloom	tbaldridge: in theory, you can kill all the monads. i'm pretty sure that yield == delimited continuations == monads
17:09	ztellman	haha
17:10	tbaldridge	bbloom: that's my theory as well, but I have no proof.
17:10	bbloom	tbaldridge: luckily, the PL community has proven it for you!
17:10	bbloom	i just finished groking a pile of this stuff
17:11	ystael	bbloom: can you recommend a bibliography or reference list? or is it more "read LtU and chase links for a sufficiently long time" ?
17:11	ystael	TimMc: no, i think that was temporary repl gremlins, i never saw it again
17:11	bbloom	http://okmij.org/ftp/ is a great place to start
17:11	bbloom	over the past 6 months or so, i've been basically trying to understand everything that guy has ever touched :-)
17:11	ystael	bbloom: oh. "To begin, become as smart as Oleg." Got it. :D
17:12	bbloom	ystael: start reading :-)
17:13	ztellman	on a non-Clojure note, is anyone reading the Hyperloop pdf?
17:13	bbloom	tbaldridge: so yeah, oleg & shan and spj and a few other folks have written about how a generalized version of yield (with both input and output) actually macro expresses single-level delimited continuations
17:13	tbaldridge	bbloom: nice! I'm going to read that paper then
17:13	bbloom	tbaldridge: multi-level delimited continuations & full continuations are basically GOTO, so that's a bad plan
17:14	bbloom	tbaldridge: yeah, definitely read that. then there is one other one you need to read about "handlers"… let me find this for you
17:15	bbloom	tbaldridge: http://math.andrej.com/2012/03/08/programming-with-algebraic-effects-and-handlers/
17:15	bbloom	that's the one
17:15	bbloom	it's in an ocaml-like language, which is much more pleasant to read than haskell IMO ;-)
17:16	bbloom	anyway, the idea there is that instead of delimited continuations, you have "handlers" and then you run a piece of code inside a handled block
17:16	tbaldridge	(inc bbloom)
17:16	lazybot	⇒ 12
17:16	bbloom	just like spinning off a sub process
17:16	bbloom	the way you implement things like dynamic-wind (ie finally blocks) is you just run the sub process, then when the sub process is done, you do your cleanup code
17:16	bbloom	the way you do things like dynamic bindings is you yield with a message "hey, give me the binding of X" and the parent process either responds or forwards the request up the chain
17:17	bbloom	this pattern lets you create a process tree that can cleanly handle computational effects
17:17	bbloom	and there is a really clean algebraic treatment of this approach as well
17:18	callen	bbloom: thinking of giving a talk on monads at my company. Should I explain them in terms of meteorites or burritos?
17:18	bbloom	i just wish we had macros with dynamic-extent :-( it would be so nice to have non-local transforms into SSA
17:19	ztellman	callen: monads are like a Lovecraftian horror...
17:19	tbaldridge	callen: I prefer to look at them as red-headed step-children
17:20	bbloom	tbaldridge: let me know once you've battled your way through those two papers. would love to hear your thoughts
17:20	tbaldridge	will do
17:20	callen	bbloom: you want dynamic extent?
17:25	ystael	speaking of theoretical background, where is a good place to start for foundations behind core.async ? the CSP book ?
17:25	bbloom	tbaldridge: even without dynamic extent, it would be bad ass to build a pluggable effect system w/ the ioc macros. let me know how i can help if you decide to attempt that :-)
17:28	bbloom	ystael: the golang community is a great source for the practical background
17:28	bbloom	ystael: the theoretical background is yeah, the CSP stuff, plus SSA
17:28	cmatheson	ystael: i agree with bbloom, i've started going through the csp book but so far go code has been more helpful for writing core.async stuff
17:29	bbloom	there are also deep parallels to CPS (note the transposed P and S) and the various continuations work from the FP community
17:29	ystael	bbloom: (= (acronym-expand-1 "SSA") "static single assignment") ?
17:29	bbloom	true
17:29	bbloom	csp = communicating sequential process; cps == continuation passing style
17:30	bbloom	although i'm no longer a believer in unencapsulated, reified continuations
17:30	ystael	bbloom: in the sense of Scheme "full call/cc" ?
17:31	bbloom	yeah
17:31	bbloom	even in that second paper i linked, where they do reify delimited continuations as functions
17:31	bbloom	they don't allow the continuations to escape (i think)
17:33	bbloom	tbaldridge: you should totally open source a core.yield library too. i think people would totally dig that as well
17:35	ystael	bbloom: having trouble finding the precise reference for the "first paper" you mentioned above
17:35	ystael	(oleg, shan, spj)
17:36	bbloom	it's linked right on top of http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4349
17:36	bbloom	http://parametricity.net/dropbox/yield.subc.pdf
17:36	ystael	bbloom: cool, thank you!
17:37	bts-	bbloom: unencapsulated == undelimited?
17:38	bbloom	bts-: unencapsulated meaning you can edit or inspect them
17:38	bbloom	(outside of debugging, i mean)
17:38	bts-	i see. thanks
18:17	hiredman	I did a little yield macro for a restartable json encoder I was thinking about
18:18	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/json/blob/master/src/com/thelastcitadel/cps.clj
18:29	Fer```	read-string and edn/read-string seem really buggy with windows files
18:30	hiredman	1. read-string doesn't have anything to do with files 2. you have a bad default encoding
18:31	Fer`	I have a config file i wrote on linux that gets parsed fine but when i open it in readme on windows and make a change read-string doesnt even return nil o.o
18:31	Fer`	hiredman: sorry i do (read-string (slurp file))
18:32	Fer`	well the file is originally encoded in utf-8 and then i open it with notepad
18:32	hiredman	1. that is a gross way to files 2. have you checked the output of slurp?
18:32	hiredman	3. what is returned?
18:33	Fer`	hiredman: the same file only with crlf. Also what would be better than that?
18:33	hiredman	slurp reads the entire thing in to memory as a string
18:33	Fer`	yeah it returns a string with crlf
18:33	Fer`	and read-string silently blows up or something it doesnt return anything
18:34	hiredman	reading the entire config file in as a string in order to turn and around and hand ti the clojure reader via read-string is silly
18:34	hiredman	Fer`: that isn't possible
18:34	hiredman	Fer`: your repl must be broken, how are you running the code?
18:35	hiredman	a bare clojure.repl? lein repl? slime? nrepl? counter clockwise?
18:36	Fer`	hiredman: nrepl: https://www.refheap.com/17541
18:36	hiredman	what nrepl client?
18:36	Fer`	mm how do i know that
18:36	hiredman	how do you start it?
18:37	Fer`	i do nrepl-jack-in on emacs
18:37	hiredman	what version of nrepl.el?
18:37	hiredman	I guess it doesn't matter
18:38	hiredman	are you using something like the latest?
18:38	hiredman	where did you get your nrepl.el?
18:38	Fer`	it says 0.1.8
18:38	Fer`	from emacs live
18:39	Fer`	well anyway it's broken if i uberjar my program and do java -jar anyway. the configuration values get turned to nil after i make any change
18:39	hiredman	Fer`: they can't get "turned to nil"
18:40	Fer`	hiredman: but that's what happenning :-(
18:40	hiredman	Fer`: most likely you are trying to read a file that doesn't exist, you should be using resources from the classpath (clojure.java.io/resource etc)
18:40	Fer`	no the file is outside the jar
18:41	hiredman	Fer`: what happens if you java -cp the-uber-jar clojure.main
18:41	hiredman	then try to slurp your file
18:44	Fer`	hiredman: it seems to slurp fine i guess, there are some weird characters where there should be accents (it's in spanish) but that's prolly because of the dumb windows console
18:46	Fer`	read-string still fails though and it returns a ?
18:46	Fer`	at least that's what the windows console tells me :'P
18:47	hiredman	Fer`: could be, or could be a dodgy windows encoding, which the jvm will use if you don't tell it to use something non-crazy
18:47	hiredman	~encoding
18:47	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
18:47	hiredman	~google jvm file encoding
18:47	clojurebot	First, out of 75300 results is:
18:47	clojurebot	utf 8 - Setting the default Java character encoding? - Stack Overflow
18:47	clojurebot	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/361975/setting-the-default-java-character-encoding
18:47	upwardindex	I've read that parsing EDN on the client side is about 3 times slower than json, anyone has looked at how much faster EDN generation is on the server side compared to cheshire?
18:56	yogthos	Fer`: ok selmer 0.3.8 is up on clojars and should work as expected ;)
18:57	ztellman	upwardindex: I wouldn't assume it's faster
18:57	ztellman	jackson, the library that cheshire uses, is heavily optimized
18:58	Fer`	yogthos: nice
19:01	Fer`	well, making the file from scratch in notepad works but porting it from linux then modifying in notepad breaks everything. Why is programming so hard :-(
19:02	justin_smith	notepad bug?
19:02	Fer`	Uhm well i can't expect people to modify configuration files in windows with anything else
19:03	hiredman	notepad does ascii, so if you have weird characters in there editing the file in notepad will break it
19:03	Fer`	I guess i can try removing the non english characters
19:05	Fer`	hiredman: is this better? (with-open [in (PushbackReader. (FileReader. path))] (edn/read in)) The other way seemed more succint :')
19:06	hiredman	yes, but you can use clojure.java.io/reader and clojure.java.io/file instead of FileReader
19:06	Fer`	ty for your time
19:13	hiredman	http://pythonforbiologists.com/index.php/29-common-beginner-python-errors-on-one-page/ this is great
19:14	technomancy	hiredman: you gonna make a clojure one?
19:15	justin_smith	[does it work in the repl but not in -main] -> [does your code use map or for?]
19:15	hiredman	"did you get an exception?" - yes -> "did you read it?" - no -> "which public school system failed you?"
19:15	justin_smith	hah
19:16	justin_smith	reading clojure stacktraces is a special kind of literacy, thanks to laziness in particular
19:16	technomancy	"Maybe we can still find something to talk about. Like how you let your family down."
19:16	technomancy	http://achewood.com/index.php?date=09232002
19:21	ToxicFrog	Man, that flowchart is way too optimistic
19:22	ToxicFrog	[Do you get an error when you run the code]--yes-->[What type of error do you get]--don't know, didn't read it-->[Ok, so read it]--I already closed the terminal-->[Run the program again, then]--how?-->[I'm leaving now to drink heavily]
19:24	justin_smith	imagine if people tried to work that way in the real world "I tried to buy bread at the store it didn't work" "how didn't it work?" "I asked the guy for the kind of bread I wanted and he said something but didn't give me bread" "what did he say?" "I dunno"
19:25	ToxicFrog	I know
19:26	bja	pretty sure people I know actually do that
19:26	ToxicFrog	And yet, a depressing number of people - and not just people attempting to program - react to error messages by closing them instantly, without reading them
19:26	ToxicFrog	As if reading them would somehow CRASH THEIR BRAIN or something
19:26	ToxicFrog	bja: yes? That wasn't hyperbole on my part, that was drawn from years of watching people taking first-year CS
19:27	ToxicFrog	Unless you mean the bread
19:27	ToxicFrog	In which case I have no idea
19:27	bja	yeah, I've seen the first year cs thing, but I was talking about the generic non-computer stuff. in particular, with cars.
19:27	ToxicFrog	welp now I'm even more sad
19:29	futile	bruh
19:30	ToxicFrog	How does it work with cars?
19:36	johnmn3	hey, I'd like to use an nrepl with a file that I am accessing from the browser using a file:///... url, rather than served up from a server on localhost
19:37	johnmn3	I'm getting: Uncaught Error: URI file:/robots.txt is invalid for field ppu
19:37	bja	Mostly the same but dealing with indicator lights. I spent a non-trivial amount of time doing ECM testing for vehicles. It was part of my job to triage reports from suits driving prototypes. Getting some to tell you which indicator light was on was a hassle. Extracting any sort of report on what happened leading up to the indicator light never actually happened unless the person who found it was formerly an engineer.
19:41	bja	Indicator lights are the world's easiest debug message. There are N different ones, and you should be able to communicate by asking them to point it out in a picture then finding out of it was solid or blinking.
19:42	johnmn3	"cross origin requests are only supported for HTTP."
19:43	bja	johnmn3: python -m SimpleHTTPServer 8080
19:43	bja	johnmn3: a lot of browsers will section off interesting things from file:///
19:44	bja	running a simple http server from the directory of your static html will help
19:45	johnmn3	bja: so how does one brepl to an app they are developing for the phone that is html5 based, but mostly offline? or even desktop-based web-apps? I guess I could fire up a server but it seems like a hastle
19:46	bja	johnmn3: I suppose that would depend a lot on how your phone's browser engine handles file:/// requests
19:47	bja	johnmn3: it might be that something like webkit as a widget for android/iphone/whatever has relaxed rules on hitting, file:///
19:47	johnmn3	aye
19:50	noprompt	the number of stars frak has received over the past 24hrs is bit disturbing. is the problem it attempts to solve really that big of an issue for programmers?
19:51	noprompt	nevertheless it's cool that people think it's interesting enought to star. :)
19:52	technomancy	more libraries should have a "Why?" section in the readme
19:52	hyPiRion	noprompt: hey, don't complain. My most starred project is a hello world program.
19:53	noprompt	technomancy: i included a "Why?" section. although the answer is both snarky and truthful. :)
19:53	bja	johnmn3: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/phonegap/meQSrujEsTo seems to indicate that XHR requests to file:/// are kosher on android's webview atleast
19:53	technomancy	noprompt: yeah, that's what I mean; you're setting a good example =)
19:53	noprompt	hyPiRion: no complaints here!
19:53	johnmn3	bja: you rock!
19:53	hyPiRion	good =)
19:54	bja	johnmn3: you might look at phonegap's java scaffolding for android to see how they initialize their webkit to be consistent
19:54	bja	might be able to consult their scaffolding for iOS/etc too (or just use phonegap...)
19:55	noprompt	technomancy: my only hope is that if anyone plans to use it seriously, they ask themselves the same question.
19:55	johnmn3	bja: yea, using phonegap
19:56	bja	johnmn3: that makes me want to try to build a clang-based phonegap app now. thanks for killing my free time.
19:56	noprompt	i must say that guy guns deserves some credit. he's the one that actually verified whether the patterns frak was generating were really that much more efficient.
19:57	noprompt	hyPiRion: you could turn your hello world project in to a repository for how to say hello in X language. then you could get some PRs!
19:57	noprompt	:P
19:59	hyPiRion	noprompt: hah, no. I'm actually happy with it just the way it is, stars doesn't really matter =)
19:59	noprompt	hyPiRion: i tend to agree. :)
20:00	noprompt	if anything, i hope people get the battlestar reference. lol.
20:05	noprompt	i love it when i edit a conflicting diff and delete the part i actually wanna keep. love it. <3
20:07	bja	noprompt: hope your editor has an undo tree
20:09	noprompt	bja: i did a git rebase -i (which i never do) had a conflict, editted, committed, then realized i fraked it up.
20:10	noprompt	bja: iow, i can't fix it. i'm gonna have to rewrite the code from memory.
20:10	bja	maybe it mirrored somewhere and you hadn't pushed yet?
20:11	noprompt	bja: no, i did a git push -f right after. ha!
20:11	awalters	noprompt: if you once committed it, it's in the reflog
20:11	noprompt	fortunately it wasn't to master!
20:11	awalters	it's only if you haven't committed/stashed that you can really lose stuff
20:11	noprompt	awalters: oh rly?
20:12	awalters	http://gitready.com/intermediate/2009/02/09/reflog-your-safety-net.html
20:12	awalters	it's always been something i need to read about when i need it...which thankfully is less and less
20:12	awalters	but it has saved my ass
20:12	noprompt	awalters: well, this is good information. thanks!
20:13	awalters	np. good luck!
20:15	noprompt	awalters: that's pretty neat. wow, you saved me some trouble.
20:15	awalters	great thing to know about in these situations. hopefully they don't come up often :-)
20:18	noprompt	indeed. this is the first time i've had this problem. i try to avoid using git rebase -i because i like to keep my commit history. this is probably another good reason to avoid it.
20:19	noprompt	interesting. does this mean that git commit history is immutable?
20:19	tieTYT	i've taken this idea from stuart sierra I think in my JS code. Basically he says everything is a map. You pass in your world to a function and every function returns a world-type. This way a lot of your program can be written like this: (-> world a b c d e f) and you can rearrange everything without refactoring signatures
20:19	tieTYT	anyone know what I'm talking about? I'm hoping i didn't pervert the spirit of his suggestionm
20:19	bbloom	noprompt: modulo garbage collection
20:19	technomancy	noprompt: yes; basically only refs change in git
20:19	bbloom	git help gc
20:20	technomancy	which sounds awfully familiar
20:20	noprompt	bbloom: am i going to have to read a paper? :P
20:20	tieTYT	JS isn't purely functional and I basically use the same idea in my game. Most functions take a gameState object which is very similar to a Map
20:20	bbloom	technomancy: no idea what you're referring to. what could possibly be similar to immutabile+gc ?
20:20	noprompt	that's very cool.
20:20	bbloom	noprompt: nope :-)
20:21	technomancy	bbloom: if only programming languages had support for a kind of "references" which could point to different immutable things over time
20:22	bbloom	technomancy: yeah, and then just like we've got non tracking tags and tracking branches and various kinds of ways to talk about commits. what if we had different kinds of "references" that do different things when they point to different immutable things over time?
20:23	technomancy	it's so crazy it just might work
20:23	noprompt	bbloom: did you go to college? someone was suggesting i should skip it and just read papers. can't remember if that was you.
20:23	bbloom	i went to college, but skipping it and just reading papers is a whole lot cheaper
20:23	noprompt	* dreads returning to college in a week.
20:23	bbloom	i dunno if i recommended that
20:24	bbloom	my actual opinion is far more nuanced
20:24	bbloom	but if your choice is college+debt, i recommend not-college+not-debt
20:24	noprompt	bbloom: i have something like 13 classes to complete before completing my bs, which amounts to about 20K. i'm debating whether the ROI is really going to be worth it since it's gonna take me 3 more years at the current rate.
20:25	ztellman	noprompt: 4 classes a year?
20:25	noprompt	ztellman: i work full time and don't want to get C's.
20:26	noprompt	ztellman: but yeah, basically. maybe 5 if i can take a course during the summer.
20:26	cmatheson	noprompt: i was doing 1 class a semester by the end, you'll make it eventually
20:26	noprompt	i might be able to test out of something but i would still have to pay for the units i believe.
20:29	hiredman	noprompt: what do you think the return on the degree will be, if you are already working fulltime, do you expect a salary bump, or are you not working in your field already?
20:29	bbloom	i should also add that i studied comp sci for 4 years and learned more in 3 months at google than in 4 years at school
20:30	bbloom	most undergraduate CS curriculums are a fucking joke
20:31	noprompt	hiredman: i'm not sure. mostly i've continued to go out of the fear not having the degree would hurt me somehow later in life.
20:32	ztellman	bbloom: what did you work on at google?
20:32	bbloom	translate.google.com
20:32	ztellman	ah, that'd be a good one
20:33	bbloom	was certainly jumping in the deep end
20:33	noprompt	hiredman: i do work fulltime as a programmer, but i make peanuts. i figure if i have a degree and a good OS profile i'd be able to land a much better job with better pay. it seems however a good OS profile can get your pretty far though so i've been debating the degree.
20:33	ztellman	I got stuck doing GWT frontend development, got out pretty quickly
20:33	bbloom	ouch.
20:33	hiredman	noprompt: yeah, that is an understandable concern
20:33	noprompt	bbloom: you are right about the undergrad CS courses being a joke.
20:33	bbloom	mine was more like "oh, hey. you don't know anything about machine learning or distributed systems? you've got a < 4 month internship to make one of the world's largest NLP systems faster. GO."
20:34	bbloom	learned fast.
20:34	ztellman	ha, yeah
20:34	hiredman	not understandable in the sense that I've seen that happen or something, but understandable in the sense that it is something I worry about sometimes :)
20:34	ztellman	My paperwork got lost after I got an offer, basically I just got put in a team in the SF office that had a slot
20:34	ztellman	no allocations, no nothing
20:35	bbloom	ztellman: i dunno about now, but in 2007, google's HR department was a black hole
20:35	technomancy	the most important thing I learned in my CS classes was how to configure wifi and stuff on linux so I could actually use my laptop to learn things while in my classes
20:35	bbloom	technomancy: why was that always so difficult?
20:35	ztellman	bbloom: they actually let most of them go ~2008, and had an 18 month hiring freeze
20:35	bbloom	there was some insane mac address entry form thinggie that didn't take normally formatted mac addresses
20:35	ztellman	I came in right at the end of that, everyone was a new hire
20:35	noprompt	hiredman: one thing that i do have at my job which makes up for the pay is the creative freedom i have. it's given me the opportunity to spend most of the year programming in clojure.
20:35	bbloom	ztellman: yes, i know about that hiring freeze. it's why i wound up working on xbox
20:35	bbloom	that's when i graduated
20:36	ztellman	it was a total mess, my recruiter got fired right after my offer, which is how I got lost
20:36	ztellman	unbeknownst to me, since I was taking a month off between jobs
20:36	ztellman	not a great initial experience
20:36	technomancy	bbloom: this is back when hardware on Linux was actually hard
20:36	bbloom	i got this phone call telling me they wanted to make me an offer but couldn't make me an offer. i was like "yeah, ok, whatever" as i was holding the phone to my ear with my shoulder & signing the xbox offer
20:36	technomancy	c. 2003
20:36	bja	intro to digital systems (logic gates, debugging, misc number systems) was an important class for me because it really forced me into a more structured way of debugging systems
20:37	cespare	for a different perspective, I feel that college was completely worth it for me. Although I worked really hard to get undergrad + masters in 4 years, to maximize my value.
20:37	cespare	I found it easy to land a really good job right out of school (with the help of a professor I worked with a lot) and paid off all debts in < 2 years.
20:37	bbloom	technomancy: that's probably the OTHER time i learned a lot about CS during my college years: we had this ipaq linux devices in the lab & the wifi was so damn flaky that we couldn't actually do any of the research the group normally did (which was shit) so i fixed the wifi kernel module
20:37	bbloom	technomancy: barely knew what a kernel was, much less how to write a kernel model when i started
20:38	technomancy	haha; nice
20:38	hyPiRion	"paid off all debts in < 2 years" -> Whoaa, where did you work you say?
20:38	bbloom	my coworkers loved me, but apparently i didn't get enough research done
20:38	bbloom	nevermind the 100X productivity boost to everybody else
20:38	bbloom	ultimately quit when i was sick of having to go fight for my late pay checks
20:38	cespare	hyPiRion: haha, i didn't
20:38	noprompt	what really pisses me off about the CS program at CSUF is they won't offer the compilers course, even with a signed petition because they are scared the students will all drop.
20:38	cespare	hyPiRion: also my parents paid half of my undergrad, so maybe it would've been four years without help.
20:38	bbloom	noprompt: that's what really upsets me. it's a fucking business
20:39	cespare	noprompt: wtf, i think your problem is a half-assed CS program.
20:39	callen	Intentional symbol capture in a small family of macros all conforming to a known contract (aforementioned symbol) - kosher/not-kosher great idea/best idea?
20:40	bbloom	the engineering program at my school had a 50% first year drop out rate. the next year, they reworked it, & it had a 95% first year success rate (estimating numbers) meanwhile, the following year, the professors were all like "THESE KIDS DO NOT KNOW SHIT" and practically striked
20:40	noprompt	cespare: well there's not much i can do about it but get through it, i guess.
20:40	bbloom	so the school expanded it's easier offerings and make it much simpler to change majors, then made the engineering program marginally harder again lol
20:40	noprompt	bbloom: was the strike successful?
20:40	technomancy	bbloom: sturgeon's law for undergrads
20:41	cespare	bbloom: at my school the intro CS was in scheme and had a super high dropout rate, and that was considered a feature not a bug
20:41	jcsims	there are some key things I get from my CS education, but also very important things from my own studying and several internships
20:41	bbloom	noprompt: only in the sense that the school expanded it's liberal arts offerings & pushed really hard to retain paying students who left the engineering program, such that the engineering program could recover
20:41	callen	cespare: excellent. :)
20:41	bbloom	tuition diversification, i call it
20:42	noprompt	* should have remained a math major.
20:42	bbloom	cespare: i think that high drop out rates are a feature iff the kids who pass come out dramatically better for it
20:42	cespare	bbloom: yeah there could be many reasons.
20:42	bbloom	cespare: failing kids for the sake of failing kids is bad. i don't care if those kids work hard and learn something and then ALSO fail
20:43	bja	bbloom: I've never really seen a place that fails people for the thrill of doing it
20:43	bbloom	bja: i've seen a few teachers do it
20:43	hyPiRion	bja: You've never been to Europe
20:43	noprompt	bja: have you heard of test first? lol.
20:43	hyPiRion	"Oh, the exam was too easy? We should apply a normal distribution on it"
20:44	bbloom	bja: i had a professor who basically graded everyone on an absurd curve, such that by week 3 of the course, most kids dropped the class expecting to fail. he did this simply so that he'd have less homework to grade so he could focus on grant-seeking nonsense
20:44	bja	hyPiRion: most of my profs decided to just make exams extremely difficult to score well on
20:44	hyPiRion	"Oh, the exam was too hard, and over 50% failed? shrug"
20:44	bbloom	bja: he admitted this publicly after the last day to drop passed
20:44	ztellman	bbloom: don't the TAs do the grading, typically?
20:44	bja	(and hten making those classes mandatory for any engineering undergrad)
20:44	bbloom	ztellman: not if you're such a dick that nobody wants to be your TA
20:45	ztellman	ha, well
20:45	hyPiRion	(dec shitty professor)
20:45	lazybot	⇒ -1
20:45	callen	(inc tenure)
20:45	lazybot	⇒ 1
20:45	hyPiRion	bbloom: that sounds like a nightmare
20:45	bja	ah, I guess I had mostly sane profs for the few years I went to university
20:46	bbloom	hyPiRion: the full version of this story can only be told over beer and off the record :-)
20:47	hyPiRion	heh
20:48	noprompt	colleges also seem very interested in investing in rediculously over the top gyms and dorms while at the same time neglecting to focus on education.
20:48	bbloom	i'm pretty down on the state of education
20:48	bbloom	don't depress me.
20:48	callen	noprompt: gyms can be shown to high school seniors and their parents.
20:49	noprompt	callen: this is true. a part of the marketing pitch for the resort they'll be sending their kids to.
20:49	bja	callen: so can dorm rooms. but spending money on a fancy gym was way more important than dry dorms
20:51	noprompt	bbloom: aparently cursive is eventually going to be a thing of the past, joining the ranks of the arts and physical activity.
20:51	noprompt	bbloom: because, you know, america needs an army of critical thinkers and art and physical activity, well, they play no role in that.
20:53	callen	physical activity is a good way to make your brain perform better.
20:53	callen	speaking of, time to coffee up for today's hoist.
20:53	bbloom	noprompt: dude, hate to break it to you, but cursive went away in the early 90s
20:53	noprompt	callen: that was part of the point i was making.
20:54	noprompt	bbloom: what? naw. i remember learning cursive in the early 90s.
20:54	bbloom	noprompt: cancelled it when i was in grade school
20:55	noprompt	bbloom: well it's news to me!
20:55	jodah	n00b Q: I'm hitting some "unable to resolve symbol: ", in two different situations, when attempting to load/reload a file. what causes this?
20:56	bbloom	yeah, fuck cursive :-)
20:56	patchwork	I don't remember the last time I wrote by hand at all
20:57	patchwork	I had to write a check the other day, I almost forgot how to do my signature
20:57	bbloom	patchwork: that was me for a while, but i find it is sometimes useful to draw shapes WITH A PENCIL and label things & what not
20:57	patchwork	it was strangely alien
20:57	bbloom	i'm more of a notes-in-vim sorta guy
20:57	bbloom	but it's just not the right tool for box and line diagrams
20:57	noprompt	patchwork: i find that solving problems on paper/whiteboard helps me find solutions to problems more efficiently than hacking on them.
20:58	bbloom	(inc whiteboard)
20:58	lazybot	⇒ 1
20:58	patchwork	bbloom: Right! I make boxes and arrows with a pencil
20:58	patchwork	just not words
20:58	callen	bbloom: I definitely had to learn cursive in the 90s.
20:58	callen	I need an at-home whiteboard. I need an at-work whiteboard too for that matter.
20:58	callen	Gerd dermmert.
20:59	technomancy	I've got a roll of butcher paper for my lap
20:59	technomancy	lab
20:59	noprompt	that's it. i'm officially starting a campaign to bring back cursive. lazy ass kids these days. we need to restore america's education system! starting with cursive!
20:59	callen	technomancy: do you just slap the roller on the wall or something?
20:59	noprompt	i just discovered there's this stuff called idea paint which you can use on your walls to effectively turn it in to a giant dry/erase board.
21:00	callen	noprompt: I'm sure my landlord would love that.
21:00	noprompt	http://www.ideapaint.com/
21:00	ztellman	noprompt: it doesn't erase very well
21:00	jcsims	noprompt: I've seen blackboard paint as well
21:00	callen	most walls are probably too textured for it to erase well.
21:00	ztellman	I think it's more than that, ink adheres better than it does on an actual whiteboard
21:00	noprompt	callen: fuck your landlord. he'll change his mind once he's seen the added value.
21:01	ztellman	either way, lots of ghostly past ideas
21:01	noprompt	but i do have to admit ztellman is write, you really gotta wipe it down.
21:01	bbloom	ztellman: i actually found that the idea paint in my last office building was the nicest whiteboard in there
21:01	patchwork	ztellman: One half of basic I/O
21:01	bbloom	erased very well
21:01	bbloom	i think there are several grades of quality of the stuff
21:02	noprompt	"write" was on purpose. i sware.
21:02	ztellman	I'm a write-only sort of guy
21:02	ztellman	bbloom: very possible, I never procured the stuff, just used it where it was already up
21:07	noprompt	bbloom: that's good to know, i'll have to do some research before i use it at home. i've only used the stuff once and my experience was similar to ztellman's.
21:10	bbloom	could just be that the other whiteboards were double shitty
21:10	bbloom	:-)
21:11	callen	Clojure web discussion: https://www.refheap.com/17547
21:21	technomancy	callen: I stick it up with thumbtacks
21:22	callen	technomancy: immutable whiteboard. I like it.
21:22	technomancy	callen: unfortunately no structural sharing =(
21:23	callen	butcher paper isn't a HAMT. Sorry.
21:25	callen	technomancy: any opinions on intentional symbol capture as part of a contract?
21:47	noprompt	bbloom: thanks for giving me the idea to use a trie. it made my dreams come true. now i have to fix this shitty algorithm.
21:47	bbloom	i don't recall giving you that idea either, apparently my memory is going. but rock on data structures!
21:49	noprompt	bbloom: yeah, i'm pretty sure it was your idea to use a some kind of a trie. i've been kicking around the idea of using DAWG but i'm still learing about how to implement them.
21:49	bbloom	what operations are you preforming on this data structure?
21:50	`cbp	callen: hi
21:50	noprompt	bbloom: the whole idea behind frak is you give it a vector of strings and it gives you a regular expression for matching those strings.
21:51	bbloom	gotcha
21:52	noprompt	bbloom: i'm using a word trie which keeps track of which branches are terminal, etc. so when the pattern is compiled it knows which parts of the pattern are optional ie bar(?:n(?:aby))
21:52	noprompt	the input there being ["bar" "barn" "barnaby"]
21:53	noprompt	i was thinking that a DAWG might make it possible to keep the overall data structure thinner.
21:53	noprompt	but going from a DAWG to a regex is probably more complicated. wit the trie it's pretty damn easy.
21:56	noprompt	bbloom: have you used a DAWG before?
21:56	bbloom	nope
21:59	gfredericks	I add :profiles {:logic {:dependencies [[org.clojure/core.logic "0.8.3"]]}} to my project.clj
21:59	gfredericks	and then `lein with-profile logic repl` fails to start, not finding nrepl code
22:00	dnolen	ztellman: I finally understand your point about core.async and implementing take-while - I suppose take-while could return the "rest" of the input channel
22:01	ztellman	dnolen: yeah, but I don't know how useful that is
22:01	ztellman	without some sort of peek or pushback behavior, it's probably not something you'd want to expose
22:03	dnolen	ztellman: I think take-while is pretty useful, you can simulate push back by implementing something like concat
22:04	ztellman	dnolen: if I'm understanding what you're suggesting, that creates a cascade of channels that grows by one each time you call take-while
22:04	ztellman	unless you have some way to flatten it out when the prefixed message is consumed
22:05	dnolen	ztellman: that's a thought, but you are correct - I don't you want to use it all the time
22:05	dnolen	ztellman: however reading over this http://rigsomelight.com/2013/08/12/clojurescript-core-async-dots-game.html
22:05	dnolen	made me see the possible utility, or maybe there's some other way to eliminate the redudancy
22:06	dnolen	in his blog post he has three cases where he want to consume up to a certain point - and the code is more or less the same
22:08	ztellman	yeah, I'm not sure what the right way to handle that is
22:08	dnolen	something to ponder ...
22:08	ztellman	there's probably still that issue that I opened way back when I was first looking through the code, but the conclusion at the end of that was that I didn't see an elegant way to add it in
22:09	ztellman	you can do it in Lamina pretty easily, but the interaction with the queues is a lot more involved as a result
22:09	ztellman	I'm not clear that's a good trade-off
22:11	dnolen	hmm I suppose it could be avoided with sentinel values
22:11	dnolen	like it is everywhere else
22:12	ztellman	right, in Lamina you have (read-channel* :predicate f :on-false ::false)
22:12	dnolen	k
22:12	dnolen	thanks
22:13	ztellman	but now that means that instead of returning a message from inside the thread-safe queue consumption, you're returning information about whether the message was consumed
22:42	mindbender1	is there an idiomatic way of nesting aget calls in cljs?
22:42	mindbender1	like get-in in clj
22:43	ambrosebs	mindbender1: isn't aget variadic?
22:43	technomancy	gfredericks: try `with-profile +logic` instead
22:44	technomancy	you're replacing the :base profile from whence the nrepl dep coms
22:44	mindbender1	ambrosebs: I'm not sure about that
22:45	mindbender1	I'm getting wrng number of args
22:45	mindbender1	*wrong
22:45	ambrosebs	mindbender1: I think it should work.
22:45	ambrosebs	mindbender1: code?
22:47	mindbender1	ambrosebs: yeah, it works. Thanks
22:47	gfredericks	technomancy: thanks
22:47	ambrosebs	ok
23:01	muhoo	that routing handler discussion is interesting. lol at whoemver wrote "g hold up" as a comment tho. and i like the idea of turnign refheap into pirate pad. but how do you contribute/edit it?
23:01	muhoo	i'm tryign to edit the doc, and it ain't lettin me
23:07	muhoo	oh well i forked it fwiw https://www.refheap.com/17551
23:14	bbloom	for all the awesomeness of core.async & the ioc macros…. i'm really sad i can't use it with HOF
23:18	noprompt	apparently the pattern i generated to match every word in /usr/share/dict/words is hoax. so says the internet.
23:21	tbaldridge	bbloom: HOF?
23:21	bbloom	higher order functions
23:21	bbloom	sorry for the unnecessary acronym
23:21	Raynes	Don't ever apologize HOFmeister.
23:21	tbaldridge	bbloom: yeeeahhhh....I have some thoughts on those lines, nothing workable yet.
23:22	tbaldridge	bbloom: although we're in the same boat as C#/F#/Haskell, it's just with being a dynamic language and all we can't hide it like Haskell does
23:23	bbloom	tbaldridge: wouldn't you need to do full defunctionalization?
23:23	bbloom	tbaldridge: i've started attempting to implement the effect handlers idea in that second paper
23:25	noprompt	Raynes: HOFmeister. lol.
23:25	tbaldridge	bbloom: that'd be one way, like I said, nothing worth talking about yet. I just wish we could do stuff like (map <! chan-seq)
23:25	bbloom	tbaldridge: if you do that, then i'd need to (defmacro <3 [tbaldridge] ...)
23:25	tbaldridge	lol
23:25	bbloom	while i got you here
23:25	callen	`cbp: hi!
23:25	callen	`cbp: http://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/1k8v72/a_discussion_a_couple_of_colleagues_and_i_had/
23:26	bbloom	tbaldridge: i'm curious if there is a way to hook non-terminal positions in the ioc macros
23:27	tbaldridge	bbloom: currently no. You'll notice that :Return is a special case. My plan was to allow for the override of any SSA instruction, but I can't figure out a way to justify it as a commit to core.async :-)
23:27	`cbp	callen: do we have any plans to support {% for x,y in foo %}?
23:28	`cbp	right now it turns that into :x,y :-P
23:28	callen	`cbp: that's...a really good point.
23:28	callen	yogthos: ahem ^^
23:28	callen	yogthos: comma-based destructuring of for loop iterators?
23:28	tbaldridge	bbloom: the first incarnation of core.async had full blown generator support, but I yanked it out since it was considered "confusing" by the powers-that-be. So long-term I wonder if we couldn't yank the ioc stuff from core.async and put it into its own lib.
23:29	bbloom	tbaldridge: i'd be interested in that, but the further this thing gets pushed, the more it's gonna look like a full blown compiler :-P
23:29	bbloom	here's my use case for hooking things:
23:33	bbloom	ok so in that second paper, the one on algebraic effect handlers, they define a version of ocaml with two sub languages. one is the "expression" language and the other is the "computation" language. basically, expressions are inert and computations have operational semantics. in the concrete syntax, they inject "val" expressions into the computation language which wrap expressions and force evaluation. the "val" expression is treated as
23:33	bbloom	a computational effect, just the same as an exception handler's catch block for example
23:33	bbloom	the idea is that evaluation is a computational effect
23:33	bbloom	but you can "intercept" evaluation and modify the result via a "val" handler
23:33	bbloom	it's basically your hook into the monad (cringe that i said that)
23:33	bbloom	so you can define `val x = [x]`
23:34	tbaldridge	bbloom: so you want to intercept individual function calls?
23:34	clojurebot	function is <Chouser> there is one class per fn, one instance of it per closure
23:34	bbloom	tbaldridge: i'm not precisely sure what points i want to hook
23:34	Phil_D	I'm having a hell of a time trying to develop with the REPL. I'm using Cheshire to encode JSON — and Monger to interface with my MongoDB database. I'm doing something very simple, such as encoding a query from Mongo to JSON:
23:34	Phil_D	(generate-string model/find-all-models)
23:34	Phil_D	This works totally fine in production when I set a Compojure route to spit the data out as JSON, but when I try to do the exact same thing in nRepl (proper namespace and all), I get:
23:34	Phil_D	"JsonGenerationException Cannot JSON encode object of class: class org.bson.types.ObjectId: 52099f9a0364ddb5b182ffa5 cheshire.generate/generate (generate.clj:147)"
23:34	Phil_D	I cannot get my head around why one works and the other doesn't. It's incredibly inconvenient because now I have no way of productively parsing the response with functions on the fly. What do I do?
23:34	bbloom	i guess i want to hook any expression which would be evaluated, yielding a value
23:34	bbloom	so like (let [x (some thing here)] ...)
23:34	callen	`cbp: I'll email it.
23:35	callen	er...github issue it.
23:35	`cbp	callen: okk
23:35	bbloom	i want execution to pause at (some thing here) and trigger something like a terminal
23:35	bbloom	basically insert extra states for ever time an expression is evaluated
23:36	tbaldridge	bbloom: isn't that what pause does in the runner macro?
23:36	tbaldridge	in that case it simply continues to the next block, but wouldn't that do it
23:36	bbloom	yeah, but the pause is explicit
23:36	bbloom	i want to insert it explicitly at keep points
23:37	bbloom	and pause would also apply a function to the value before sticking it back in to the state map
23:37	dnolen	Phil_D: do you have a classes directory lying around in your project directory?
23:37	tbaldridge	bbloom: would the (some thing here) be known at compile time?
23:38	bbloom	yes. they happen at particular points in the syntax of the primitives. hold on, let me find the precise description in this paper
23:39	Phil_D	dnolen: I have a 'models' directory that holds functions to insert documents to the database as well as query collections.
23:40	callen	`cbp: it's up. Good find!
23:41	bbloom	tbaldridge: eh. it'd be easier if you just read that paper. i know you'd be excited by it anyway, so i'm just gonna assume you'll read it
23:41	bbloom	:-)
23:41	tbaldridge	bbloom: lol, yeah, I'll try to get to it soon
23:41	bbloom	tbaldridge no rush of course. i'm just dicking around
23:42	dnolen	Phil_D: I mean are you somehow loading the wrong classes? did you ever AOT? you may have a classes directory lying around then.
23:42	`cbp	callen: :-) I'm reading your chat
23:42	bbloom	tbaldridge: for now, i'm gonna do the explicit thing, like pause
23:43	dnolen	Phil_D: http://github.com/dakrone/cheshire/blob/master/src/cheshire/generate.clj#L147
23:43	dnolen	Phil_D: it looks like you're passing in something cheshire cannot handle
23:45	Phil_D	dnolen: Yeah, it doesn't like the ObjectId. that Monger is adding to the map I'm trying to encode. The only thing is that Cheshire doesn't care about that in production. It just serializes the ObjectId. as a string. My application works fine, but the behavior somehow changes in the REPL that throws that error.
23:46	dnolen	Phil_D: I'd be wary about that conclusion "Chesire doesn't care"
23:46	dnolen	Phil_D: there's probably something else going on.
23:46	`cbp	"What if context-free grammars were as easy to use as regular expressions?" And here I'm thinking that regular expressions are anything but :-/
23:46	dnolen	Phil_D: the fact that it works in production is likely a distraction, it should never work
23:48	Phil_D	dnolen: Hmmm. On the front-end I'm using ClojureScript with an AngularJS app that interfaces with the JSON — it's still "works". The calls are very straightforward. I can paste in a code bit to pastebin.
23:49	dnolen	Phil_D: I don't really have time to dig in, but based on the error you're passing in the wrong thing. Pass in the right thing at the REPL and it will work.
23:50	Phil_D	dnolen: Gotcha. It could be the way I'm interfacing with the REPL. I've had mixed results (I'm just beginning Clojure development).
23:52	callen	Phil_D: are you using Clang?
23:52	dnolen	Phil_D: As far as I can tell has nothing to do w/ your REPL setup at all :) your code that magically works in production is incorrect or you're doing something different and not realizing it.
23:53	callen	`cbp: the problem with regex is that they can be dense and the syntax isn't great. look at the markdown parser that was written with Instaparse.
23:53	callen	`cbp: look at this: https://github.com/chameco/Hitman/blob/master/src/hitman/core.clj
23:53	callen	ridiculously awesome.
23:54	dnolen	callen: damn
23:54	callen	dnolen: I'm considering writing an experimental validating lexer and parser for Selmer with Instaparse :)
23:55	`cbp	I considered instaparse for a split second for selmer before i did a simple state machine and then yogthos was all like nahhhh lets use mine
23:55	callen	I'm actually trying to make certain, in the meantime, that expressing the template lang in terms of a CFG is possible, if it isn't, I'll cut off the full parser part.
23:55	callen	`cbp: sadly yogthos' was further along and you weren't online to consult on something. Sorry about that :(
23:56	`cbp	it's ok his is prolly faster/better anyway
23:56	Phil_D	dnolan: even if I'm using nRepl with Emacs? Like, I'm throwing entire buffers into the REPL for evaluation.
23:56	Apage43	I just got to use instaparse for a thing
23:56	Apage43	was nice
23:56	callen	`cbp: proooobably. The current design of Selmer is essentially based on the actual DTL implementation, but 6x less code.
23:56	callen	Apage43: went well eh?
23:56	Apage43	yep
23:57	Apage43	thing works
23:57	callen	`cbp: Selmer is like ~1k LOC. DTL is ~6k
23:57	Apage43	end users get (relatively) useful errors when they do something wrong
23:58	callen	Apage43: oh really? Could you show me an example?
23:58	callen	Apage43: error handling is actually our primary concern atm.
23:58	callen	now that performance has been conquered (haha, perverse priorities :)
23:59	brehaut	callen: that hitman code is awesome