#clojure – 2013-08-08

2013-08-08

00:07	sinistersnare	Exception in thread "main" java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate cljdx/myscreen__init.class or cljdx/myscreen.clj on classpath: , does anyone have experience with this? if it helps, this class is using a proxy
00:07	sinistersnare	and im not sure what to do
00:14	futile	I have an itch to do something cool now.
00:15	sinistersnare	you should help me :=\
00:15	futile	The success of Zephyros has made my confidence return that I can actually do cool, smart things.
00:15	futile	With what, O person?
00:16	sinistersnare	A FileNotFoundException with not finding something in classpath
00:17	futile	I'm afraid I have no idea how to help you.
00:17	sinistersnare	its ok :p
00:18	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, Are you using leiningen?
00:18	sinistersnare	yes
00:18	sinistersnare	it is happening on a .clj file with a proxy
00:19	sinistersnare	idk if thats is
00:19	sinistersnare	it
00:19	sinistersnare	Exception in thread "main" java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate cljdx/myscreen__init.class or cljdx/myscreen.clj on classpath: ,
00:19	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, I don't know if it's a bug or not, but I've had this problem before. Try using both an import and a use in your namespace declaration. The order is important, though I don't remember which should come first.
00:19	jack_rabbit	The namespace that's referencing the class, that is.
00:20	coventry	Never mind, my question was stupid.
00:21	sinistersnare	sorry, what did you say?
00:21	sinistersnare	right before i left
00:21	jack_rabbit	<jack_rabbit> sinistersnare, I don't know if it's a bug or not, but I've had this problem before. Try using both an import and a use in your namespace declaration. The order is important, though I don't remember which should come first.
00:21	jack_rabbit	<jack_rabbit> The namespace that's referencing the class, that is.
00:22	futile	Does writing an efficient syntax highlighter for Clojure code sound hard?
00:23	wastrel	hi
00:23	wastrel	i have vim clojure syntax thing
00:23	futile	It seems easy to me right now, but maybe I'm ignoring something important.
00:23	sinistersnare	idk, but you should do something for nightcode! https://github.com/oakes/Nightcode
00:23	sinistersnare	a new clojure IDE
00:23	futile	sinistersnare: did you write it?
00:23	sinistersnare	nope
00:23	sinistersnare	but im gonna try to write a libgdx-clojure template for it!
00:23	technomancy	futile: improve lein's support for native deps
00:23	sinistersnare	oh yeah
00:24	sinistersnare	make it easy to use clojure for beginners*
00:24	futile	sinistersnare: it's using rsyntaxtextarea which I have my doubts about
00:24	sinistersnare	thats a good one
00:24	sinistersnare	something lightweight
00:24	futile	sinistersnare: it's already easy to use Clojure for beginners
00:24	sinistersnare	i have no idea what that means! but ok
00:24	futile	technomancy: gaw?
00:24	sinistersnare	when i started clojure, i wasnt sure what to do :p
00:25	jack_rabbit	futile, a syntax highlighter shouldn't be too complicated, thanks to Lisp's syntax.
00:25	futile	sinistersnare: I think the solution to that is just to advertise "lein repl" more
00:25	futile	jack_rabbit: that's what I'm thinking too.
00:25	technomancy	futile: nobody on the lein team uses native deps, so the support is kind of crappy and undocumented
00:25	sinistersnare	jack_rabbit: https://www.refheap.com/17378 this is my clojure file
00:25	technomancy	it's a ~common complaint
00:25	futile	technomancy: s/on the lein team //
00:25	sinistersnare	all i use is import
00:25	sinistersnare	should i use 'use'?
00:26	sinistersnare	how do yall denote functions?
00:26	futile	technomancy: hmm
00:26	technomancy	futile: dude sinistersnare totally uses native deps
00:26	sinistersnare	(use)?
00:26	sinistersnare	im confused
00:26	sinistersnare	what
00:26	futile	technomancy: it sounds like it involves understanding anything about Java, which I don't
00:26	sinistersnare	no i figured it out :D
00:26	technomancy	futile: actually the opposite
00:26	sinistersnare	im using a maven repo from libgdx now :D
00:26	futile	Oh. Then what's "native deps" mean?
00:26	sinistersnare	well i dont know what native deps are
00:26	sinistersnare	so its ok
00:26	technomancy	futile: like .so files and such
00:26	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, where is the error occuring?
00:27	futile	technomancy: !!
00:27	futile	technomancy: you mean using C libraries?
00:27	technomancy	yeah
00:27	jack_rabbit	futile, That's what a native dep is...
00:27	futile	That sounds both fun and impossible.
00:27	jack_rabbit	futile, as in "native code"
00:27	futile	jack_rabbit: I see that now
00:27	sinistersnare	jack_rabbit: 1,1
00:27	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, in that file?
00:27	technomancy	futile: that or improving clojuresphere
00:28	futile	technomancy: does JVM even allow using C libs at all?
00:28	sinistersnare	what do you mean?
00:28	technomancy	on the lein survey "difficulty finding dependencies" ranked highly under pain points
00:28	jack_rabbit	futile, yes, of course.
00:28	futile	jack_rabbit: oh.
00:28	technomancy	futile: sure; you can do FFI via JNI
00:28	futile	I just.. assumed not.
00:28	technomancy	like minecraft
00:28	futile	!
00:29	jack_rabbit	technomancy, leiningen seems to be unable to find dependencies sometimes when maven can.
00:29	futile	I wonder if he would lose any performance by porting to Clojure
00:29	futile	(the Java parts)
00:29	technomancy	futile: that's what sinistersnare is doing with libgdx
00:29	jack_rabbit	futile, Probably not.
00:29	sinistersnare	technomancy, wait, what am i doing with libgdx?
00:29	technomancy	jack_rabbit: native parts specifically?
00:29	technomancy	sinistersnare: using it? right? I dunno; I was just skimming at that point.
00:29	futile	oh boy
00:29	sinistersnare	the dependency thing? i got it working, im using their maven repos on their site
00:29	sinistersnare	oh im using it (!!)
00:30	futile	okay, I think this conversation got way out of hand
00:30	technomancy	sinistersnare: but it has parts written in C, right?
00:30	futile	everybody jut calm down
00:30	jack_rabbit	technomancy, No, not native parts. I'll retract that statement if we're specifically talking about native stuff.
00:30	futile	*just
00:30	sinistersnare	technomancy: libgdx uses JNI very much for math stuff and memory stuff
00:30	technomancy	jack_rabbit: still curious =)
00:30	sinistersnare	Opengl stuff
00:30	futile	People only work on things they would use on a daily basis, right?
00:30	futile	That's the only motivation for working on anything (that and money)
00:31	jack_rabbit	technomancy, Just that thing I mentioned to sinistersnare a moment ago, where you need both a :use and an :import statement in the namespace of :gen-class'd clojure files.
00:31	technomancy	futile: that's the only sustainable motivation, sure
00:31	jack_rabbit	technomancy, Otherwise it sometimes doesn't seem to be able to find certain classes.
00:31	jack_rabbit	I also want to submit a patch to clojure.
00:32	futile	Well I'm very dissatisfied with all text editors for Clojure code, and I use it every day for my job. So assuming I don't get fired or quit any time soon, that sounds like a good project.
00:32	jack_rabbit	futile, Just use emacs.
00:32	futile	Granted, there have been at least 2 or 3 mentioned in the mailing list recently.
00:32	jack_rabbit	futile, native lisp syntax highlighting.
00:32	futile	jack_rabbit: I am, and it hurts, a lot. But let's not have a flame war.
00:32	jack_rabbit	futile, native
00:32	technomancy	jack_rabbit: you're talking about gen-classed stuff within the same project?
00:32	jack_rabbit	futile, You don't like emacs?
00:32	jack_rabbit	technomancy, yes.
00:32	sinistersnare	im confused, jack_rabbit im not using :use statements
00:32	clojurebot	technomancy is <jweiss> oh man this sucks, why didn't anyone warn me about protocols
00:32	futile	jack_rabbit: please don't do this. We could be great friends.
00:33	jack_rabbit	futile, :)
00:33	technomancy	clojurebot: we warned you man. we warned you about stairs.
00:33	clojurebot	I'm no man, and she's no lady!
00:33	johnmn3	friends are overrated
00:33	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, I'm still not sure in what file your code is erroring. I don't see main anywhere in your pasted file.
00:33	jack_rabbit	Oh, clojurebot.
00:34	sinistersnare	ill post the entire thing
00:34	futile	So, I'm pretty psyched, you guys helped me get 475 stars on my project.
00:34	jack_rabbit	clojurebot: say something useful.
00:34	clojurebot	Something weird that I noticed: & (use '[clojure.contrib.json :as json]) & &\| (json/pprint-json nil) \|&
00:34	sinistersnare	https://gist.github.com/sinistersnare/44e3e50bcec04237c700
00:34	futile	I'm feeling like a useful member of society that contributes back!
00:34	sinistersnare	futile: help out Nightcode, it could use some cool stuff! i would contribute if i knew anything
00:34	futile	What's a relative sane modern GUI lib for Java?
00:35	futile	sinistersnare: it has a very different feature-set than I want.
00:35	futile	sinistersnare: they all do.
00:35	sinistersnare	futile: i can see that
00:35	sinistersnare	its ok :p
00:35	sinistersnare	i was jesting mostly
00:35	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, You aren't importing your cljdx.drop namespace.
00:35	sinistersnare	do i need to?
00:35	technomancy	futile: I haven't used it, but seesaw is the only one I've heard good things about
00:35	futile	sinistersnare: it's a legitimate suggestion
00:35	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, yes.
00:35	futile	technomancy: thx
00:35	sinistersnare	so just (:use cljdx.drop) ?
00:35	futile	woo https://github.com/daveray/seesaw
00:35	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, that'll work.
00:35	sinistersnare	great
00:35	sinistersnare	nope
00:36	sinistersnare	:(
00:36	futile	i nevar reelizd it was a closure lb
00:36	futile	*lub
00:36	sinistersnare	lib*
00:36	futile	*lub
00:36	Heet	*lob
00:36	futile	oh man it even has a hello world!
00:36	futile	*leb
00:36	jack_rabbit	*flub
00:36	futile	hey anyone using mac?
00:36	jack_rabbit	lil
00:36	sinistersnare	futile: https://gist.github.com/daveray/1441520
00:37	futile	thx sinistersnare
00:37	futile	who are you?
00:37	sinistersnare	your maker
00:37	sinistersnare	some kid whos trying to learn to program
00:37	jack_rabbit	Well lisp is a great start.
00:37	sinistersnare	well...
00:37	jack_rabbit	You're ahead of all those unix fools using their crazy archaic C.
00:37	sinistersnare	i know java/python
00:37	sinistersnare	but ive been programming for < 1 year
00:37	sinistersnare	and im loving it
00:38	jack_rabbit	Good.
00:38	sinistersnare	so im just devouring everything
00:38	sinistersnare	i watched technomancy's talk at conj
00:38	technomancy	(don't want to get devoured is all)
00:38	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, Try learning assembly. That'll twist your face off.
00:38	sinistersnare	i would go this year (im a few miles away) but its so expensive for a ticket
00:38	sinistersnare	i tried to learn assembly!
00:38	sinistersnare	i know a tad bit of C too
00:38	jack_rabbit	Try again!
00:38	sinistersnare	C++ scares me
00:38	Heet	assembly's not bad
00:38	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, C++ should scare everyone.
00:39	sinistersnare	but first i want to fix this damned FileNotFoundException!
00:39	technomancy	sinistersnare: in the past they've had special sponsored student tickets to the conj; wouldn't hurt to ask
00:39	sinistersnare	that :use didnt work
00:39	jack_rabbit	Same error?
00:39	sinistersnare	oh that would be so cool
00:39	sinistersnare	yes
00:39	sinistersnare	nothing has changed !
00:39	jack_rabbit	did you try a lein clean?
00:39	sinistersnare	yes
00:39	sinistersnare	wait
00:39	sinistersnare	yes
00:39	jack_rabbit	hmm. hang on. Let me look at that code again.
00:40	sinistersnare	technomancy: ill see if i can email someone, and if they need my highschool CS teacher to email or something, she likes me, im top of the class :D
00:40	sinistersnare	well
00:40	sinistersnare	was, school hasnt started up again
00:40	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, I'm confused. Why are you using both :gen-class and using a (gen-class ...) form in your drop.clj file?
00:40	sinistersnare	i have no idea!
00:40	sinistersnare	it was a bunch of iHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing.jpeg
00:41	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, I'm also not sure that (cljdx.drop) is valid syntax.
00:41	sinistersnare	the clojure book that i just bought hasnt gotten that far!
00:41	sinistersnare	wait
00:41	technomancy	sinistersnare: gen-class is a bit weird; might be best to find an existing working example to adapt.
00:41	technomancy	I always forget how it works
00:41	sinistersnare	ok, ill look for something
00:41	sinistersnare	a guy here a couple hours ago said the same :p
00:41	technomancy	(also make sure you can't use reify or proxy because if you can those are awy more convenient)
00:42	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, Either way, you don't need one in the ns macro and as a form in your clj file.
00:42	sinistersnare	oh wait
00:42	sinistersnare	i fixed that
00:42	jack_rabbit	technomancy, They don't really do subclasses, though, right?
00:42	sinistersnare	https://gist.github.com/sinistersnare/44e3e50bcec04237c700
00:42	jack_rabbit	technomancy, I was under the impression that if you wanted a true subclass, you had to use gen-class.
00:43	technomancy	jack_rabbit: depends on whether you need a whole class or just an instance.
00:43	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, I'm not sure if dots are valid class names.
00:43	sinistersnare	well, i hear that i shouldnt use proxy, but use reify; but i havent found much on how to use it
00:43	jack_rabbit	valid in class names
00:43	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, Each has its own use.
00:44	sinistersnare	i looked at the gen-class documentation, it said fully qualified name
00:44	technomancy	sinistersnare: there are still cases you can use proxy where reify doesn't work by design; something about inheriting from concrete classes or something
00:44	technomancy	reify is preferred if you can use it, but sometimes you can't
00:44	sinistersnare	yes, thats what ive heard. but what i need to subclass is an abstract class
00:44	technomancy	reify might work for that
00:44	sinistersnare	ok, now i just need to read on how to use it :p i have like 15 tabs open
00:45	jack_rabbit	Reify doesn't work on classes. Only interfaces and protocols.
00:45	technomancy	huh
00:46	jack_rabbit	I try to avoid the Java stuff when I can, though.
00:46	jack_rabbit	I only know that because the project I work on uses so much Java.
00:46	sinistersnare	yeah, im thinking i should write a wrapper for libgdx; like how seesaw works
00:46	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, good idea.
00:46	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, makes your code look a lot cleaner, too.
00:46	sinistersnare	i would be so happy if i did, ive seen some people try; but they have since stopped developing it.
00:46	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, fork it.
00:47	sinistersnare	im interning in my CS class instead of taking the next look; so i will have some time
00:47	sinistersnare	we do java, so ill just install the clojure.jar and work there
00:47	jack_rabbit	:)
00:47	sinistersnare	:D
00:47	jack_rabbit	Java is way easier to program in clojure.
00:47	jack_rabbit	Or Scala.
00:48	sinistersnare	never tried scala, but ive heard good things
00:48	jack_rabbit	I don't know very much of it, but it's a pretty cool language.
00:48	sinistersnare	jack_rabbit: fork the wrappers that have tried?
00:49	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, unless you want to start from scratch.
00:49	sinistersnare	idk, right now i just want to get this working though :p
00:50	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, Well the (cljdx.drop) form isn't valid, I don't think.
00:50	wastrel	i installed openjdk on my debian
00:50	sinistersnare	in the clojure documentation for gen-class it says to use the fully qualified name
00:50	sinistersnare	which im pretty sure it means package too
00:50	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, That's fine. I'm talking about the form in core.clj.
00:50	sinistersnare	oh
00:50	sinistersnare	lemme see
00:50	jack_rabbit	(LwjglApplication. (cljdx.drop) "Hello, Clojure!" 800 480 true))
00:51	jack_rabbit	If you're trying to instantiate the class, you need a dot after the name.
00:51	sinistersnare	OH
00:51	sinistersnare	damnit
00:51	sinistersnare	still doesnt work
00:51	futile	scala seems way over complicated
00:51	jack_rabbit	I don't have the first clue as to why you don't get a syntax error, though.
00:52	sinistersnare	im just building
00:52	johnmn3	How would one get at the bytes in a #<[object Blob]> in clojurescript?
00:52	sinistersnare	idk if that matters
00:52	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, Try not a fully qualified name.
00:52	sinistersnare	ok
00:53	sinistersnare	nope :(
00:53	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, I mean in the core.clj file.
00:53	sinistersnare	yep
00:53	sinistersnare	just doing (drop.)
00:53	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, also, import the cljdx.drop namespace. I didn't see that in your last paste.
00:53	sinistersnare	did that too
00:54	jack_rabbit	hmm...
00:54	sinistersnare	https://gist.github.com/sinistersnare/44e3e50bcec04237c700
00:54	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, I still don't see it in there.
00:54	sinistersnare	oh the import?
00:54	sinistersnare	i tried it and it didnt work
00:55	sinistersnare	let me try again for good measure
00:55	sinistersnare	nope
00:55	jack_rabbit	both import and use?
00:56	sinistersnare	can i :import a clojure file?
00:56	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, No. You're importing the class that's been generated.
00:56	sinistersnare	https://gist.github.com/sinistersnare/44e3e50bcec04237c700
00:56	sinistersnare	thats what it is now
00:57	jack_rabbit	And if leiningen tries to compile core.clj before it compiles your drop.clj into a class, lein will error.
00:57	sinistersnare	hmm
00:57	sinistersnare	can i tell it which order to do it in?
00:57	jack_rabbit	Try one way, then the other.
00:57	jack_rabbit	I don't remember which works.
00:57	sinistersnare	weird
00:57	sinistersnare	so i switched the position of :aot and :main in project.clj
00:57	sinistersnare	and now
00:57	technomancy	usually if load order matters it means you're missing a :require somewhere
00:57	wastrel	i installed openjdk then i installed linengngen
00:57	sinistersnare	its giving me a :aot [cljdx.drop cljdx.gamescreen])
00:58	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, what does that mean?
00:58	technomancy	sinistersnare: order of top-level keys in project.clj doesn't matter
00:58	sinistersnare	wait
00:58	sinistersnare	copied wrong thing
00:58	sinistersnare	error loading /home/sinistersnare/clj/cljdx/project.clj
00:58	jack_rabbit	:C
00:59	jack_rabbit	Is your project.clj valid?
00:59	jack_rabbit	And is that where it's supposed to be?
00:59	sinistersnare	oh its because im stupid
00:59	TEttinger	(:require (cljdx [myscreen :as myscreen])) seems like an odd syntax
00:59	sinistersnare	the paren
01:00	sinistersnare	that was copied from a previous thing i found on github
01:00	sinistersnare	this is just a test that has taken many hours more
01:00	sinistersnare	than i expected
01:00	jack_rabbit	that'll happen.
01:00	TEttinger	that was the case with libgdx for me too
01:00	TEttinger	at least the dep wrangling
01:01	jack_rabbit	deps have always been a pain for me in clojure. Other than that it's a pretty cool lisp.
01:01	sinistersnare	but this is some weird FileNotFoundException
01:01	sinistersnare	how do those come up?
01:02	sinistersnare	cant find something on classpath...hmmm
01:02	sinistersnare	so it must be something with me dealing with lein
01:03	sinistersnare	maybe TEttinger is right where it cant find cljdx.myscreen
01:03	sinistersnare	maybe
01:03	ahungry	hey guys, whats the doc search call on the repl again?
01:03	sinistersnare	lemme see
01:03	sinistersnare	(doc java.lang.String)
01:03	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
01:03	sinistersnare	but you need to do (use 'clojure.repl) first
01:03	ahungry	sinistersnare: the apropos one where you can search it out
01:03	ahungry	like, (find-doc or something?
01:03	sinistersnare	oh no idea D:
01:03	ahungry	if I want to find regex for instance, but (doc regex) no matches
01:04	sinistersnare	nope didnt fix
01:04	TEttinger	sinistersnare, did you gist upload your project.clj?
01:04	sinistersnare	well
01:04	coventry	Is there a man page for cljs? I'm looking for a way to tell it to catch errors which clojure would normally catch at compilation time like the transposed colon in [tutorial-client.post-processing: as post].
01:04	sinistersnare	i fixed it
01:05	sinistersnare	it was the require statement
01:05	sinistersnare	pointed to the damned wrong file
01:05	sinistersnare	FileNotFoundException could never have been more right
01:05	TEttinger	ah I see it
01:05	jack_rabbit	:)
01:05	ahungry	hm ok seems to be (find-doc actually
01:05	ahungry	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.repl/find-doc
01:05	sinistersnare	but i fixed like 3 other bugs, so its ok
01:05	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, kudos!
01:05	sinistersnare	well...
01:05	sinistersnare	lib names inside prefix lists must not contain periods
01:06	futile	Does it make sense to port Clojure to C?
01:06	technomancy	futile: no
01:06	SegFaultAX	So, how do people generally feel about liberator?
01:06	futile	Why not?
01:06	futile	Is it because you love Java so much so why don't you marry it?
01:07	TEttinger	liberator?
01:07	SegFaultAX	futile: Because that defeats a lot of the purpose of Clojure. It's specifically designed to be a hosted language.
01:07	futile	(That question may need some mental rewording.)
01:07	sinistersnare	futile: why?
01:07	technomancy	futile: yes, that's exactly it
01:07	ahungry	What does this mean though? CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: find-doc in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1:\
01:07	ahungry	1)
01:07	ahungry	using the nrepl.el program in emacs
01:07	technomancy	my secret is out O_O
01:07	futile	technomancy: okay seriously though?
01:07	ahungry	using clj directly on cli it works
01:07	TEttinger	ahungry, did you (use 'clojure.repl)
01:07	technomancy	futile: you need... like... a runtime.
01:07	SegFaultAX	ahungry: I'm guessing because it can't resolve that symbol in whatever ns you're working in.
01:08	futile	technomancy: ... why isn't C's runtime good enough?
01:08	futile	Oh, no GC
01:08	futile	Well it has that one GC lib..
01:08	TEttinger	futile, also horrible strings
01:08	futile	It has that one string lib..
01:08	jack_rabbit	futile, It has nothing to do with that.
01:08	ahungry	thanks guys
01:08	futile	WHOA dont search "c strings"
01:09	futile	or at least be very careful
01:09	sinistersnare	best google search of the day
01:09	technomancy	futile: you can't have seamless interop with libs that don't use that runtime, strings, and collections though
01:09	technomancy	*use that GC
01:09	futile	Oh, seamless interop. Ruby and Python didn't need it.
01:09	futile	They got pretty popular without it.
01:09	TEttinger	no one interops with ruby and C unless desperate
01:09	jack_rabbit	futile, If you "port" clojure to C, you end up with some weird modernized Common Lisp.
01:10	futile	jack_rabbit: citation needed
01:10	SegFaultAX	Greenspun's tenth and all that.
01:10	jack_rabbit	futile, There are already plenty of native lisps.
01:10	futile	jack_rabbit: each Lisp is as different semantically as Ruby and Python are
01:10	jack_rabbit	futile, Clojure derives a lot of its strength from its Java interop.
01:10	futile	jack_rabbit: and often syntactically also
01:10	jack_rabbit	futile, that's just not true.
01:10	TEttinger	a significant chunk of what makes clojure good is easy access to java
01:10	futile	jack_rabbit: then you're living a lie
01:11	jack_rabbit	futile, lisp is what you make it. There are simple macros available to make it behave like Clojure.
01:11	jack_rabbit	Common Lisp, that is.
01:11	TEttinger	if I had segfaults and unseen array overflow in clojure, I wouldn't use it
01:11	futile	jack_rabbit: no, macros are not a magic bullet that work like that.
01:11	jack_rabbit	futile, I think you misunderstand me, then.
01:11	futile	possibly
01:11	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: Well, sure ok. You /could/ make any old lisp act like clojure. But a lot of Clojure's semtantics were informed by the runtime on which it's built.
01:12	jack_rabbit	SegFaultAX, Sure, but that's invisible to the user.
01:12	TEttinger	yeah, doing something like pmap in C would be... agh
01:12	jack_rabbit	There's no reason you couldn't build a clojure -> native compiler.
01:12	futile	You'd have to build whole new datatypes in Scheme to get it to work much like Clojure.
01:12	jack_rabbit	There's just also no reason TO do that.
01:12	TEttinger	it would probably require large libs to use threads
01:13	technomancy	futile: it would be hard to make it work on a platform that lacked interfaces
01:13	technomancy	racket kinda has them though
01:13	jack_rabbit	futile, I believe that. I don't know much about scheme. I was speaking specifically about Common Lisp.
01:13	TEttinger	you could probably do something like interfaces with C++ though, right?
01:13	technomancy	racket is cheating though; it's specifically designed to write new languages =)
01:14	jack_rabbit	technomancy, Isn't that what all lisp is designed for? DSL's?
01:14	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: The point is to invent a proper native clojure implementation, you'd have to re-invent a non-trivial portion of the JVM.
01:14	jack_rabbit	SegFaultAX, yes. I agree.
01:15	SegFaultAX	In other words, Clojure cannot live independently of the platform on which it was intended to live.
01:15	jack_rabbit	SegFaultAX, I believe I made exactly that point earlier, when I said that Clojure's strength derives from its closeness to Java and the JVM.
01:15	SegFaultAX	Lest you re-invent a bespoke platform to host it.
01:15	technomancy	jack_rabbit: I don't know if I'd say "domain-specific"; that's pretty limiting
01:15	jack_rabbit	technomancy, True.
01:15	futile	technomancy: interfaces can be done in C, I did it once when I wrote my (inefficient) Lisp interpreter.
01:16	futile	Kinda wish I never deleted that. But only kinda.
01:16	technomancy	futile: the whole point of interfaces is that everyone in the ecosystem can agree on them though
01:16	futile	uhh
01:16	futile	wat
01:17	technomancy	well from an interop perspective
01:17	technomancy	otherwise you're constantly converting between types for every interop call you make
01:19	jack_rabbit	Interfaces aren't too hard in C.
01:19	SegFaultAX	Depends on what you call an interface I suppose.
01:19	jack_rabbit	There's a good Object Oriented C pdf floating on the internet somewhere.
01:20	SegFaultAX	Heh "interfaces aren't too hard in C... provided you already have a working object system"
01:20	jack_rabbit	SegFaultAX, Nah.
01:20	jack_rabbit	You just have to write a few V-tables.
01:20	jack_rabbit	if you want to do it __right__
01:21	SegFaultAX	That's not really the interesting part of interfaces, though.
01:21	SegFaultAX	The interesting part is being able to asert that some thing conforms to some known API.
01:21	SegFaultAX	Usually that assertion comes at compile time, but it doesn't have to.
01:22	jack_rabbit	That's why we have compile time errors, yes.
01:22	SegFaultAX	So v-tables are entirely irrelevant.
01:23	jack_rabbit	I was just flexing. :)
01:23	futile	interfaces in C are easy to do so long as you never ever ever change their structure.
01:23	futile	ever.
01:23	sinistersnare	hi again... i hate to ask another question, but this is about scoping in clojure. im getting an error that it cant resolve a symbol, but its defined in a let form of a function that i call; can i use those variables from the first function? https://gist.github.com/sinistersnare/44e3e50bcec04237c700
01:23	jack_rabbit	futile, yes.
01:23	SegFaultAX	sinistersnare: Never feel bad about asking questions.
01:24	sinistersnare	ive just been here a while
01:24	sinistersnare	and i need to sleep really soon
01:24	sinistersnare	but im determined to get this thing working
01:24	sinistersnare	the code is in gamescreen.clj
01:24	jack_rabbit	Especially when the main thread is so far off topic...
01:24	sinistersnare	:D
01:24	sinistersnare	it was interesting to glimpse at it, and wonder what you guys were talking about a little
01:24	futile	jack_rabbit: but without need that "OOP in C" pdf. i mean just using structs and casting
01:24	sinistersnare	but i understood a good portion
01:25	sinistersnare	i dont really see much use for OOP in C, i like that its nice and clean
01:25	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, I don't see your gamescreen.clj.
01:25	sinistersnare	under the huge ass error?
01:25	jack_rabbit	Oh wait...
01:25	jack_rabbit	:P
01:25	sinistersnare	yep
01:25	sinistersnare	:D
01:25	jack_rabbit	I just needed to scroll.
01:26	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, you haven't defined font.
01:26	sinistersnare	its in the let form in (allocate) (i dont know how to point out that something is a function)
01:26	jack_rabbit	font is only a valid symbol within the let form in your allocate function.
01:26	sinistersnare	yes
01:26	TEttinger	you use let to give the name font a value, but only until the end of the ) that matches (let
01:26	SegFaultAX	sinistersnare: But it isn't in scope where you're using it.
01:26	sinistersnare	yes
01:26	sinistersnare	thats my main problem
01:26	sinistersnare	but
01:26	sinistersnare	maybe
01:26	sinistersnare	wait hold on
01:26	sinistersnare	im stupid wait
01:26	john2x	font needs to be in the screen fn as well
01:28	TEttinger	,(let [font (java.awt.Font.)] (.derive font 8.0))
01:28	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
01:28	jack_rabbit	lul
01:28	TEttinger	,(let [font (java.awt.Font. java.awt.Font/MONOSPACED java.awt.Font/PLAIN 14.0)] (.deriveFont font 8.0))
01:28	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class java.awt.Font, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
01:29	TEttinger	I can guess why...
01:29	xpe	Any ideas for my SO question: Serializing sorted maps in Clojure: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18118290/serializing-sorted-maps-in-clojure-edn
01:29	jack_rabbit	,(let [font (java.awt.BitmapFont.)] (.derive font 8.0))
01:29	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.awt.BitmapFont, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
01:29	sinistersnare	font is a libgdx class :D
01:29	jack_rabbit	ahh.
01:29	jack_rabbit	:)
01:29	sinistersnare	:D
01:29	TEttinger	sinistersnare, it's an AWT class too, I use it in swing
01:30	sinistersnare	yeah
01:30	sinistersnare	Libgdx has some of their own stuff, like Color
01:30	jack_rabbit	Well clojurebot can't seem to find it.
01:30	sinistersnare	https://gist.github.com/sinistersnare/44e3e50bcec04237c700
01:30	sinistersnare	the gamescreen.clj there doesnt work either
01:30	sinistersnare	i thought the scoping would be ok
01:30	TEttinger	sinistersnare, nope
01:30	TEttinger	you stuck a ) after ]
01:30	TEttinger	that ends the let
01:30	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, You're trying to program imperatively.
01:31	sinistersnare	damnit!
01:31	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, Your code using 'font' needs to be within the scope of the let form.
01:31	noonian	xpe: could you just use seq to turn it into a vector of key value pairs and serialize and deserialize that?
01:31	sinistersnare	well, thats because its mostly just libgdx stuck in clojure
01:31	sinistersnare	i thought i did define it
01:31	xpe	noonian: I could, but I'd much rather keep the data structure intact
01:31	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, Only within the let form.
01:31	TEttinger	move the ) after the ] in "(let [batch (SpriteBatch.) font (BitmapFont.)])" to the end of the function
01:31	sinistersnare	(let [batch (SpriteBatch.) font (BitmapFont.)])
01:32	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, Do you understand what let does?
01:32	sinistersnare	it defines local vars
01:32	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, Sort of.
01:32	sinistersnare	so it needs to wrap the entire function?
01:32	xpe	noonian: there are workarounds, where an app "knows" to expect a sorted-map, but that is missing the point, I think
01:32	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, It binds symbols to storage within its form.
01:32	sinistersnare	ok...
01:32	sinistersnare	seems legit
01:32	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, so 'font' only has meaning within the let form.
01:32	john2x	outside the let, the symbols don't exist
01:32	SegFaultAX	noonian: That solution loses the semtantic meaning of a map, though.
01:33	sinistersnare	ok
01:33	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, you understand what a form is, yes?
01:33	sinistersnare	yes!
01:33	jack_rabbit	good.
01:33	sinistersnare	ive read a little bit of my clojure book
01:33	sinistersnare	so do i put it at the end?
01:33	SegFaultAX	xpe: I don't think there is a general solution for this. It's going to be specific to your a) serialization format, b) consumer
01:33	xpe	SegFaultAX: right. do you know of ways to "verbose" output a sorted set?
01:33	jack_rabbit	put what at the end?
01:33	sinistersnare	the ]) in the let form
01:33	jack_rabbit	No.
01:33	sinistersnare	where then?
01:33	jack_rabbit	The ] encompases the symbols you're binding.
01:33	sinistersnare	ok
01:34	SegFaultAX	xpe: That isn't really a thing. There isn't a literal form for that data structure in Clojure.
01:34	sinistersnare	just the paren then?
01:34	sinistersnare	ohhhhhhh
01:34	jack_rabbit	the ending ) encompases the scope you're using those symbols in.
01:34	john2x	sinistersnare: i think you'll have issues with (resize [w h]) as well.
01:34	xpe	SegFaultAX: I'm thinking a custom reader literal could help. then I'd need to write a serializer too
01:34	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, Yes, Just the ).
01:34	sinistersnare	john2x: why?
01:34	SegFaultAX	xpe: And your consumers almost certainly don't have that data structure built in if they're non-Clojure (eg Ruby or Python)
01:34	sinistersnare	it still cant resolve font
01:35	SegFaultAX	xpe: Sure, a custom serializer wouldn't be too hard.
01:35	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, show your code.
01:35	sinistersnare	https://gist.github.com/sinistersnare/44e3e50bcec04237c700 gotcha
01:35	sinistersnare	just updated
01:35	TEttinger	everything between "(let [batch (SpriteBatch.) font (BitmapFont.)]" and the ) that matches the let can see font and batch. nothing else can. if the ) is right after the ], nothing can see it except for other things in the let []
01:35	SegFaultAX	xpe: You can use the same literal form as a normal hash with a tag.
01:35	sinistersnare	TEttinger: ok cool
01:35	xpe	SegFaultAX: correct. If I control the consumer, I'm good. I could also fall back to JSON, make sure the ordering doesn't get messed up, and reread always as a sorted map, too
01:36	SegFaultAX	xpe: Why does ordering actually matter for your map, by the way?
01:36	xpe	SegFaultAX: I'm thinking through a B-tree
01:36	TEttinger	let can be tricky at first, but you'll get used to seeing 2 closing braces for a defn and an immediately following let at the end of a function definition
01:36	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, I think you have an extra paren before the do.
01:36	john2x	sinistersnare: w and h aren't in the (let) as well it seems. maybe they need to be fn arguments?
01:36	TEttinger	since let is so commonly used
01:36	SegFaultAX	xpe: Then a map literal is almost certainly not what you want anyway.
01:36	sinistersnare	TEttinger: yeah, im still gethering my legs
01:36	jack_rabbit	((do (.dispose font)
01:36	jack_rabbit	(.dispose batch))))
01:36	futile	I love talking to people smarter than me :)
01:37	xpe	SegFaultAX: it is, actually, but it would take a while to explain
01:37	jack_rabbit	futile, me too!
01:37	sinistersnare	john2x: those are most likely gonna be unused, so ill see
01:37	SegFaultAX	xpe: No common format can encode this natively.
01:37	SegFaultAX	xpe: Except XML
01:37	sinistersnare	my parens matcher says that it works jack_rabbit but ill look over it
01:37	jack_rabbit	You might have matched it, but that doesn't make it valid.
01:37	xpe	SegFaultAX: thanks, I've gotten good insight here.
01:37	SegFaultAX	xpe: I'd be interested to check out your solution!
01:38	TEttinger	,(vec (sorted-map {3 "a: 5 "b" 1 "c"}))
01:38	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
01:38	SegFaultAX	xpe: Maybe you should write an edn-utils library that adds serializations for common complex data types.
01:38	SegFaultAX	:)
01:38	TEttinger	,(vec (sorted-map {3 "a" 5 "b" 1 "c"}))
01:38	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: {1 "c", 3 "a", 5 "b"}>
01:38	xpe	SegFaultAX: that would be nice
01:39	TEttinger	,[(vec (sorted-map 3 "a" 5 "b" 1 "c")) (into (sorted-map) (vec (sorted-map 3 "a" 5 "b" 1 "c")))]
01:39	clojurebot	[[[1 "c"] [3 "a"] [5 "b"]] {1 "c", 3 "a", 5 "b"}]
01:39	futile	oh my
01:39	xpe	TEttinger: yes, you could do that, but it loses the semantics
01:39	futile	what big s-exps you have
01:39	jack_rabbit	You just watch yourself, jackdempsey...
01:40	jack_rabbit	futile, lol.
01:40	sinistersnare	im confused
01:40	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: Well if you're doing that far, then just encode a pair of: the map, the order of the keys as a vector
01:40	jack_rabbit	about what?
01:40	TEttinger	xpe, yeah, true
01:40	futile	we will not have this discussion
01:40	sinistersnare	i have no idea
01:40	sinistersnare	thats my point
01:40	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, lol.
01:40	SegFaultAX	[{:a 1 :b 2}, [:b :a]]
01:40	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, Are you using an nrepl?
01:40	sinistersnare	nope
01:41	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: No need to repeat the kv pairs for both.
01:41	sinistersnare	its compiled
01:41	sinistersnare	i think you need to with :gen-class
01:41	sinistersnare	do you need to with reify?
01:41	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, the REPL is one of the greatest tools for developing lisp. Use it.
01:41	TEttinger	SegFaultAX, no I was just showing how to turn it into a vector and how to turn the vector back into a sorted-map
01:41	sinistersnare	ok, but, im not sure how to use it in the context...
01:41	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: That's not the hard part.
01:41	TEttinger	you lose type info, but metadata could do it
01:41	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, Fire up a REPL, and try defining and using your functions.
01:42	futile	Would Clojure be a good language to implement a professional-grade programming language compiler in?
01:42	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, Once your functions work in the repl, you can be sure your errors are with namespaces and junk like that.
01:42	sinistersnare	well, idk
01:42	xpe	SegFaultAX: this is cool example I can adapt: https://github.com/flatland/ordered/blob/develop/src/data_readers.clj
01:42	sinistersnare	these functions dont seem to be designed for a repl
01:42	john2x	sinistersnare: or, if you use vim, install vim-fireplace :)
01:42	futile	I had the impression it would be too slow or inefficient, but I don't know what gave me that idea.
01:42	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, True, so try some repl-friendly analogues.
01:43	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, but ultimately, they should all work within the repl.
01:43	TEttinger	futile, I'm not familiar with the state of parsing libs in clojure, but the language features an embedded DSL would have would be great
01:43	futile	There's one parsing library in Clojure that might be perfect. I forget what it's called but it's gotten great reviews.
01:44	futile	Instaparse.
01:44	jack_rabbit	futile, I have a feeling the speed of your compiler would be due to the methods of optimization you use, not the language it's written in.
01:44	SegFaultAX	Or just ANTLR
01:44	futile	NOOOO
01:44	futile	never
01:44	jack_rabbit	futile, gcc is incredibly slow compared to many other simpler compilers.
01:54	zRecursive	clang seems faster than gcc ...
01:55	futile	so it's settled
01:55	futile	I'm going to write a Clojure-like language using Clojure as the compiler, emitting LLVM bitcode.
01:55	sinistersnare	oh so youre gonna do clojure-llvm
01:56	futile	ffffff
01:56	Foxboron	cllojvre?
01:56	futile	does that exist?
01:56	sinistersnare	lol jk i dont know if it exists :p
01:56	sinistersnare	but i think that there is a jvm bytecode -> llvm bitcode
01:56	sinistersnare	so you can just do clojure -> jvm -> llvm bit
01:56	Foxboron	https://github.com/jasonjckn/llvm-clojure-bindings
01:56	Foxboron	sorta
01:56	sinistersnare	no need for a compiler
01:57	sinistersnare	im still confused :( i tried using the repl, but im lost.
01:57	Foxboron	Related: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Clojure-LLVM
01:57	sinistersnare	actually
01:57	sinistersnare	i fixed the scoping issue
01:57	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, maybe try something simpler until you get the hang of lisp?
01:57	sinistersnare	well
01:57	sinistersnare	i feel like
01:57	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, What you're doing is pretty complicated.
01:58	sinistersnare	i never got into libgdx until i wrote my game
01:58	sinistersnare	i need to push through, im sorry im asking so many questions :(
01:58	sinistersnare	i fixed that one
01:58	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, It's cool. You're not bothering anyone.
01:58	sinistersnare	now im getting a ClassNotFoundException while compiling cljdx.drop
01:58	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, paste?
01:58	futile	sinistersnare: ban yourself from IRC, I've found that I learn way more and way faster when I remove the social aspect from it
01:59	Foxboron	futile: depends
01:59	sinistersnare	ill paste
01:59	Foxboron	futile: it is more a person too person thing
01:59	futile	sinistersnare: when I force myself off IRC, i have nothing left to do but figure out the problems by reading and trying things, which always works
01:59	sinistersnare	:p i should do the same with reddit then futile
01:59	futile	yes.
01:59	sinistersnare	well i fixde the scoping issue after stopping myself for a few minutes
01:59	Foxboron	futile: ever tried rubberduck debugging?
02:00	sinistersnare	its great!
02:00	sinistersnare	i linked to it here today
02:00	sinistersnare	https://gist.github.com/sinistersnare/44e3e50bcec04237c700
02:00	sinistersnare	i think i may need to update this
02:00	futile	Foxboron: yes, it helps. but it also helps when it's a real rubberduck and not a person
02:00	zRecursive	,(reduce conj #{} (for [i (range 10) j (range 10)] [i j]))
02:00	clojurebot	#{[2 1] [3 2] [4 3] [5 4] [6 5] ...}
02:00	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, still the font thing?
02:00	futile	i often write an email to a friend and leave the TO field blank the whole time, until its ready to send. by that time ive already figured it out
02:01	Foxboron	futile: i find it easier to talk to a person. Several times i have tried explaining a problem too a friend, then i realize the error without him even getting too respond
02:01	sinistersnare	nope
02:01	sinistersnare	fixed that
02:01	futile	Foxboron: ive had that happen to me a lot. its quite irritating.
02:01	Foxboron	haha, i think it is funny.
02:01	futile	:\|
02:01	Foxboron	But i am not a really a talky person in the first place
02:01	futile	depends on how valuable you think your time is compared to his
02:01	TEttinger	two ( before do
02:01	sinistersnare	https://gist.github.com/sinistersnare/44e3e50bcec04237c700
02:02	sinistersnare	i got that
02:02	sinistersnare	yep
02:02	futile	i try to think of my time as less valuable, which helps me to really force myself to NOT bother him.
02:02	futile	and it always works.
02:02	Foxboron	futile: depends what setting i guess. I usually sit in a bar with other people just talking about code
02:02	futile	ok
02:03	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, Weird. I'm again lost with the gen-class. gen-class is your problem. All I can do is suggest you read the gen-class docs again.
02:03	zRecursive	,(bit-shift-left 2 38)
02:03	clojurebot	549755813888
02:03	sinistersnare	i read it mostly; ill again
02:05	TEttinger	gen-class and proxy might relate to each other in unexpected ways
02:06	sinistersnare	how so?
02:07	TEttinger	https://kotka.de/blog/2010/02/gen-class_how_it_works_and_how_to_use_it.html I think you might just need a simpler gen-class declaration
02:07	sinistersnare	can reify be used to generate a subclass of an abstract class?
02:07	TEttinger	If you have two generated classes where one depends on the other, you should add also a require in the deﬁning namespace. This resolves order issues for AOT compilation.
02:08	sinistersnare	i have an abstract class subclass, and an interface
02:08	sinistersnare	implementation
02:09	sinistersnare	wait
02:09	TEttinger	http://www.deepbluelambda.org/programming/clojure/generate-your-class-and-proxy-it-too might help? I am not familiar with proxy
02:10	sinistersnare	i dont think i NEED to subclass it, but i do need to implement
02:10	jack_rabbit	sinistersnare, I'm not sure if reify can do that, but proxy can.
02:10	sinistersnare	so deftype can implement dynamically
02:10	sinistersnare	not needing to AOT
02:10	sinistersnare	but thats not really a problem of mine
02:11	sinistersnare	so only proxy can extend too
02:11	TEttinger	try removing :name cljdx.drop from :gen-class
02:12	TEttinger	that's the line the error is on
02:13	jack_rabbit	Come to think of it, I've never EVER had to use gen-class in that way. I guess that's why I'm so unfamiliar with it's syntax.
02:13	sinistersnare	hmm
02:13	jack_rabbit	its*
02:13	sinistersnare	that fixed, time for another error
02:13	sinistersnare	lemme try to fix this
02:13	sinistersnare	more namespace problems
02:13	futile	Wow. Seesaw is comparable to Cocoa.
02:13	futile	I could dig this.
02:13	sinistersnare	:use and :require and shit
02:13	futile	whoa whoa whao, everybody just calm down
02:13	TEttinger	futile, seesaw's great
02:13	sinistersnare	i like seesaw
02:14	futile	sinistersnare: can i recommend that maybe you take a little break from IRC?
02:14	futile	maybe take a walk?
02:14	sinistersnare	i need to go to sleep
02:14	jack_rabbit	I tried seesaw for a bit, then I gave up.
02:14	TEttinger	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7jG10UFN90
02:14	jack_rabbit	But I don't like programming GUIs.
02:15	futile	TEttinger: make anything with it?
02:15	TEttinger	my current project
02:15	futile	jack_rabbit: you use Mac?
02:15	TEttinger	a few other small things
02:15	futile	TEttinger: sweet
02:15	jack_rabbit	futile, only when I have to.
02:16	futile	jack_rabbit: oh ok. well then you wont need Zephyros
02:16	jack_rabbit	Objective-C is pretty cool.
02:16	futile	jack_rabbit: yeah i wrote zeph in it
02:16	jack_rabbit	what is that?
02:16	futile	its no clojure, but not horrible either
02:16	futile	jack_rabbit: scriptable window mover-arounder-and-resizer-etc for mac, https://github.com/sdegutis/zephyros
02:16	jack_rabbit	So it's a lisp implementation?
02:16	jack_rabbit	Oh.
02:16	jack_rabbit	I see.
02:17	futile	the "not horrible" comment was about objc
02:17	sinistersnare	lol
02:18	futile	hmm JTextArea, neat
02:18	jack_rabbit	futile, LOL. I love the README.md.
02:18	futile	thx
02:18	futile	true story btw
02:18	jack_rabbit	lol
02:18	futile	i heard about it from a friend
02:18	futile	of a friend
02:20	futile	welp, JTextArea looks not great for syntax highlighting
02:21	sinistersnare	nightcode uses seesaw for its gui stuff, and has syntax highlighting; not trying to plug this time, but you can look at how they do it
02:21	futile	i did. didnt i say earlier?
02:22	futile	he uses rsyntaxtextarea
02:22	futile	which i think is possibly overkill
02:22	sinistersnare	ohoh
02:22	sinistersnare	sorry
02:22	futile	no prob
02:22	sinistersnare	didnt really realize that
02:23	futile	you should take a nap
02:23	futile	its late
02:23	futile	and youve had a long day
02:23	sinistersnare	i do
02:23	sinistersnare	i need to be up in a few hours
02:23	sinistersnare	but i was so determined
02:23	futile	maybe a nice warm glass of milk
02:23	sinistersnare	to fix the damned thing
02:23	futile	sinistersnare: there's always tomorrow
02:23	futile	when you have a fresh mind
02:23	sinistersnare	:( it is tomorrow
02:23	futile	i mean friday
02:23	sinistersnare	lol
02:23	futile	ie tomorrow
02:24	sinistersnare	crap its thursday already
02:24	futile	good night
02:24	SegFaultAX	I've never understood the appeal of warm milk by itself. Mixed with coffee or chocolate, sure. But by itself it's just so... warm and milky.
02:24	sinistersnare	chocolateeeee
02:24	futile	SegFaultAX: warm milk with honey is just like breast milk, hence the comfort
02:25	SegFaultAX	futile: Don't drink much breast milk these days.
02:25	futile	me neither. but thats what my wife says.
02:25	SegFaultAX	Thanks for the protip though. ;)
02:25	SegFaultAX	Has she done extensive research?
02:25	SegFaultAX	For science...
02:25	futile	she took some college
02:25	futile	like, for nursing stuff
02:26	futile	like, a nurse.
02:26	SegFaultAX	Haha
02:26	futile	but not a nurse.
02:26	SegFaultAX	She went to college to learn how to nurse!?
02:26	SegFaultAX	What school was this and how do I apply?
02:26	callen	SegFaultAX: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/08/07/why-clojure-will-win/
02:26	sinistersnare	these conversations go weird places
02:26	callen	sinistersnare: it's pretty specific to futile.
02:27	sinistersnare	lol
02:27	futile	good night sinistersnare
02:27	SegFaultAX	sinistersnare: Breastmilk is relatively tame compared to where it usually goes after you log.
02:27	sinistersnare	:( ok fine
02:27	sinistersnare	i have to go then
02:27	SegFaultAX	We're waiting for you to leave, though.
02:27	sinistersnare	adios yall
02:28	futile	what a nice young man.
02:28	futile	i hope he comes back tomorrow well rested
02:29	zRecursive	Can clojure do scripting things as bash ,etc. ? i feel it is difficult thing as its slow startup time
02:29	noonian	zRecursive: yeah, I use lein-exec: https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-exec
02:29	jkj	i quess there should be a service of some sort to make scripting fast
02:29	callen	zRecursive: doable and inadvisable unless it's complicated and you want to reuse clojure libs.
02:29	noonian	its slow but does work :P
02:29	callen	jkj: that's called Drip.
02:30	zRecursive	thx
02:30	futile	zRecursive: it can but its not well suited for it as you noticed. lein exec makes it a little easier but im not convinced its great for it
02:30	SegFaultAX	Just use something specifically designed for scripting.
02:31	futile	i use ruby for scripts
02:31	SegFaultAX	I've found the mix of Clojure + Ansible to be positively refreshing.
02:31	futile	ansible?
02:31	SegFaultAX	futile: Less shit chef.
02:31	tomjack	is core.typed's (ann x t) pretty much the only sensible way to do type annotations? :(
02:31	futile	oh nice
02:31	tomjack	I wish I could do ^t x
02:32	callen	Ansible has a nice complexity scale up from "shoot things at lists of servers" to, "I need to distribute instructions to multiple clusters efficiently"
02:32	tomjack	`x :- t` is next on my list but it seems unlispy and tricky to desugar, plus weird if your code actually deals with the keyword :-
02:32	futile	im sold based onthis readme
02:32	futile	we use chef + boucher at work
02:32	sinistersnare	sorry again
02:32	sinistersnare	BUT IT MOTHERFUCKING WORKS
02:32	sinistersnare	goodnight
02:32	SegFaultAX	callen: Good article so far. I agree with many of his sentiments.
02:33	futile	boucher = https://github.com/8thlight/boucher
02:33	callen	SegFaultAX: you'll note that he says exactly what I was saying about static type systems constraining the solution space :P
02:33	callen	SegFaultAX: he conveyed it more succinctly, but that's precisely what I'd been trying to tell you before.
02:34	futile	lately im wanting to switch back to RoR :(
02:34	noonian	i think it might be provable even
02:34	callen	futile: why?
02:34	callen	noonian: what?
02:35	callen	noonian: that static systems constrain expressible programs to those that are decidable by the type system?
02:35	noonian	yes
02:35	callen	noonian: that the type system is decidable and allows some things and disallows others is kinda the point of any decidability proof
02:35	noonian	,:P
02:35	clojurebot	:P
02:35	callen	Haskell '98 being the keenest example
02:35	callen	but nobody uses the decidable type system from Haskell '98, because it's too...drum roll please...
02:35	callen	restrictive.
02:36	callen	so they play, "pimp my compiler" instead of writing code.
02:36	futile	oh wow, this is great: https://gist.github.com/daveray/1441520
02:36	futile	thanks whoever linked me to that
02:36	futile	limechat doesnt support Cmd-F so its hard to find out who it was
02:36	SegFaultAX	callen: I never disagreed with that. I only said that it's by choice, and that it's possible to side-step the side system by unifying all types to Uni (as in the case of most dynamically typed languages) if you want to.
02:37	SegFaultAX	Which is trivially true.
02:37	SegFaultAX	s/side system/type system/
02:37	callen	SegFaultAX: it's not in Haskell '98
02:38	callen	SegFaultAX: if the type system is actually complete and decidable, you can't side-step it without changing the compiler (implementation)
02:38	noonian	my experiences with haskell and sml cancell each other out, destructive interference
02:38	jack_rabbit	lol
02:39	SegFaultAX	callen: If Haskell's type system was both sound /and/ complete, that might be ture.
02:39	SegFaultAX	True, even.
02:39	callen	Haskell '98, yes, and that's my point.
02:40	callen	I was talking about types, not Java.
02:40	callen	you kept banging on about MAKE EVERYTHING OBJECT TYPE LEL
02:40	futile	Whoa. Seesaw may be my new favorites.
02:40	futile	Cocoa used to be my favorites.
02:40	SegFaultAX	callen: Okay.
02:40	xpe	SegFaultAX: solved: http://stackoverflow.com/a/18119161/109618
02:40	futile	This is like Cocoa. Maybe not as native, sure. But screw that, I get to use Clojure!
02:41	jack_rabbit	native is overrated.
02:41	callen	jack_rabbit: until you need it, sure.
02:41	jack_rabbit	And that's coming from someone who likes writing assembly.
02:41	jack_rabbit	callen, true.
02:42	tomjack	which type systems have undecidable checking?
02:42	clojurebot	that's cool
02:43	jack_rabbit	shut up, clojurebot.
02:43	SegFaultAX	tomjack: Type systems that support n-rank polymorphism > 2
02:43	jack_rabbit	(It's okay to be unreasonably mean to bots)
02:43	SegFaultAX	Which I don't think Haskell does without some switches, IIRC.
02:44	jack_rabbit	You shouldn't have to if you write your typeclasses properly.
02:44	jack_rabbit	:)
02:44	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: Uh. What?
02:45	callen	I've bumped into the limits of the Haskell compiler before, it wasn't a happy place.
02:45	callen	extending Clojure is a dream by comparison.
02:45	jack_rabbit	No doubt.
02:46	SegFaultAX	Without an extensive background in type theory (which I don't have), I imagine it's near impossible.
02:47	callen	there's a non-trivial list of prereqs for comprehending type theory too.
02:47	SegFaultAX	I've looked at a very, very small amount of GHC's implementation and understood virtually nothing at all.
02:47	callen	I figured out thunks. That made sense. lol.
02:47	callen	still don't like 100% lazy languages anyway.
02:47	callen	I'm with Okasaki - want both.
02:47	tomjack	"Most Haskell compilers allow arbitrary-rank polymorphism as an extension, but this makes type inference undecidable."
02:48	SegFaultAX	Well there's your answer.
02:48	callen	"most haskell compilers" I see we're pretending something other than GHC exists beyond Haskell '98
02:48	jack_rabbit	lol
02:49	jack_rabbit	type inference is overrated.
02:49	callen	I agreed with that until I tried out Scala
02:49	tomjack	("Type checking is decidable, however..")
02:50	callen	Scala taught me the pain of a half-assed static type system.
02:50	SegFaultAX	You should try Java some time.
02:50	callen	the only static type system I'm likely to take seriously short of Hindley-Milner is core.typed.
02:50	callen	SegFaultAX: I'm told it's useless/horrible. I prefer to poke at bytecode from Clojure and otherwise keep my dick clean.
02:50	jack_rabbit	You should try C some time.
02:50	callen	speaking of, I need to write that proxy thing.
02:51	jack_rabbit	"that proxy thing"
02:52	tomjack	java gives me just enough to make me try to use the types, and then I fail miserably :(
02:52	SegFaultAX	liberator seems so awesome in theory but damn defresource gets ugly and fast.
02:53	jack_rabbit	tomjack, is there a way to use Java without using types?
02:53	xpe	jack_rabbit: Clojure
02:54	xpe	haha
02:54	callen	jack_rabbit: you know Clojure right?
02:54	tomjack	I mean to.. express interesting things with the types
02:54	callen	tomjack: trying to make the type system do something useful? Good luck.
02:55	SegFaultAX	callen: WRT the previous discussion, I think you fundamentally don't understand my argument if you think I was "talking about Java". It's unfortunate considering how much time we've wasted in aggregate on the subject.
02:56	callen	SegFaultAX: the kind of uni-typed implementation you referred to wasn't about the type system and was an artifact of the Object abuse the Java ecosystem engages in.
02:56	jack_rabbit	xpe, callen, Clojure is definitely not Java.
02:56	jack_rabbit	It just runs on the JVM.
02:56	SegFaultAX	callen: It has nothing at all to do with Java.
02:56	jack_rabbit	SegFaultAX, indeed.
02:56	xpe	what is happening right now?
02:56	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: You're missing a significant amount of context.
02:57	callen	in the abstract yes, but that you think it somehow has something to do with the type system is an artifact of your experience.
02:57	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: 5+ hours worth of discussion.
02:57	callen	at LEAST 5 hours.
02:57	callen	haha, dead horse. Liquified :)
02:57	jack_rabbit	indeed.
02:57	callen	SegFaultAX: apologies. Congrats btw. :)
02:59	futile	Okay, a Clojure text editor it is.
02:59	futile	In seesaw.
02:59	SegFaultAX	For?
02:59	clojurebot	for is not a loop
02:59	callen	SegFaultAX: to make an apple pie from scratch, futile has to first create the universe.
03:00	SegFaultAX	callen: That was to you. Congrats for?
03:00	SegFaultAX	My engagement?
03:00	TEttinger	futile: make it handle multimarkdown and you can sell it to compete with the load of commercial non-cross-playform multimarkdown editors
03:00	callen	SegFaultAX: yes, your engagement.
03:00	futile	TEttinger: uhhh
03:00	SegFaultAX	Thanks.
03:00	callen	SegFaultAX: I wasn't going to name it in public unless you did so first.
03:01	callen	SegFaultAX: pass my congrats to the lucky lady. :)
03:02	futile	TEttinger: wat?
03:02	SegFaultAX	callen: I'll let Chelsea know.
03:03	callen	danke
03:04	TEttinger	futile, multimarkdown is a superset of markdown, there's a bunch of mac-only specialized editors for it and most are commercial
03:04	futile	TEttinger: oh. well i dont use markdown as much as i use clojure, so..
03:04	futile	:)
03:04	TEttinger	if your text editor could also render MMD to HTML and used swing, it would work everywhere
03:04	futile	TEttinger: who are you?
03:05	TEttinger	eh?
03:05	SegFaultAX	callen: Anyway, the conversation was never about type systems for the same of discussing type systems. The original thesis was that dynamic type systems are a subset of statically typed systems, and that can be trivially a practically proven.
03:05	futile	TEttinger: oh sorry thats a weird question to ask
03:05	futile	i have a knack for asking weird questions by accident
03:05	futile	your name sounds familiar
03:05	callen	SegFaultAX: we just got done discussing how the opposite is true. I don't know how you can believe that.
03:05	TEttinger	futile, I've been here before
03:06	TEttinger	also on some channels on quakenet for game dev
03:06	futile	oh maybe the mailing list
03:07	SegFaultAX	callen: Is it the volume of code to do it that's the issue?
03:08	SegFaultAX	callen: Name a feature for example that couldn't be implemented in a static type system, provided I unify all the run time types to a tagged union.
03:08	callen	SegFaultAX: no, it's just a misapprehension of type systems to use turing completeness to implement a different system outside of that type system.
03:08	SegFaultAX	callen: Ah right. So the issue is the fact that I essentially have to bypass the static type system (as above)?
03:09	callen	bypassing it means precisely that we're talking about a different, independent type system
03:09	callen	you've left one world and joined another.
03:09	callen	the implications of that are unbounded and could mean anything.
03:10	SegFaultAX	callen: I see your point, although it isn't clear that the distinction is always hugely valid, especially if the type systems can freely interoperate.
03:10	callen	it's totally valid and if you assert differently you will confuse any conversation intended to be about type systems.
03:11	callen	the best example to demonstrate my point I can come up with is a raw brainfuck interpreter implemented in haskell.
03:11	SegFaultAX	callen: It'd still be a valid program in XYZ-static language, I just wouldn't be able to statically verify the correctness of the program.
03:11	callen	the code executed in the brainfucker interpreter has nothing to do with haskell's type system anymore.
03:11	callen	if that doesn't get the point across, then I am at a loss.
03:11	SegFaultAX	Well, BF is untyped so that's a tricky example.
03:11	callen	it really doesn't matter
03:12	callen	as I said, the implications of implementing something else could mean anything
03:12	callen	could be a stronger type system, could be a weaker one, could be an untyped one
03:12	SegFaultAX	But I'm not really talking about type systems, for the 100th time.
03:12	callen	but the behavior of the new system reflects nothing at all upon the previous type system.
03:12	callen	but you are, you're talking about static vs. dyanmic
03:12	SegFaultAX	Not vs.
03:12	callen	static constrains the solution space to what it can understand.
03:12	SegFaultAX	It isn't one vs the other.
03:13	callen	you have a wider solution space for a given problem in a dynamic type system than you do in a static one.
03:13	SegFaultAX	I'm saying that a static type system can trivially implement a dynamic type system. That's it.
03:13	callen	attempts to deal with those constraints end up compromising the static type system more often than not.
03:13	SegFaultAX	I'm not comparing the merits of one to the other or anything.
03:13	callen	that's nothing to do with a type system
03:13	callen	at all
03:13	callen	a static type system can't "implement" anything.
03:13	SegFaultAX	I never was.
03:13	callen	it's an immutable thing
03:13	callen	you're talking about a property of turing completeness.
03:14	callen	that you can implement a different language flows from turing completeness
03:14	callen	it has NOTHING to do with the originating type system.
03:15	callen	a type system is a property of a fixed, immutable implementation
03:15	callen	implementing a different language using that language leaves the semantics of that system and you are now talking about a complete different, de novo type system.
03:15	SegFaultAX	I never said otherwise.
03:16	callen	you're conflating type systems with programming.
03:16	futile	https://github.com/seliopou/typo
03:16	callen	static type systems have a more constrained mathematical space of expressible "things" than dynamic type systems.
03:16	callen	that's...the whole point of them.
03:17	callen	if the type system didn't constrain the expressible programs to what it understood it would be useless.
03:17	SegFaultAX	Hmm, perhaps my original arguments wasn't well phrased.
03:18	SegFaultAX	Maybe: "there isn't a clear boudnary between static and dynamic languages"
03:19	callen	but there is.
03:19	callen	well
03:19	callen	now we're talking about languages, and we're potentially including undecidable type systems.
03:19	callen	turing complete type systems happen to be undecidable.
03:20	callen	using them to prove static languages somehow "cover" a dynamic expression space is equally senseless and besides the point of type systems.
03:20	callen	which really just gets back to what I said about turing completeness.
03:21	SegFaultAX	Turing completeness makes it hard to visualize the real separation between these paradigms.
03:21	callen	doesn't have to be, Haskell 98's type system makes the matter very clear.
03:22	callen	maintains a strict separation between "turing complete programming language" and "type system allows a set of expressible programs, and is a subset of those expressible by an untyped language"
03:22	callen	you do yourself a disservice by muddling your understanding of the concepts at hand with frankly poorly thought out implementations.
03:22	tomjack	what is the equivalence relation on programs
03:23	futile	wat
03:23	SegFaultAX	I only use the implementations as examples.
03:25	futile	I... I think I can do this!
03:25	tomjack	bisimilarity or something?
03:25	futile	The last time I tried, it was 4 years ago and I was just learning programming and the languages I had weren't very good. But now I'm qualified do this
03:25	futile	!
03:25	callen	tomjack: bisimilarity isn't strict enough.
03:25	callen	tomjack: you'd have to match and constraint semantics to the intersecting set realistically
03:26	callen	this is something you'd do by vague gestures outside of Coq and Agda.
03:26	callen	it's doable in a very rough and homespun sense though.
03:26	callen	constrain*
03:26	callen	well
03:26	callen	maybe bisimilarity would be enough.
03:27	callen	tomjack: bisimilarity across partial programs for all possible inputs with patching non-total behavior I think might be sufficient.
03:27	tomjack	I don't get it at all
03:28	callen	matching*
03:29	callen	tomjack: the problem is that bisimilarity would still just be talking about input and output.
03:29	tomjack	yeah
03:29	tomjack	I don't see what else to talk about
03:29	callen	tomjack: the point of saying that static type systems are more constrained is to say that given a bisimilar program, you can skin the cat in more ways with a dynamic lang than a static one.
03:30	tomjack	presumably there are infinitely many ways in either language
03:30	mpenet	TimMc: Do you think the query validation issue is really a big deal? I am thinking about this, and what it would take to make it more safe. Also comparing to other libs like this (honeysql for instance), lack of safety is quite common in this area, not that is should be the default.
03:30	tomjack	?
03:31	tomjack	or do you quotient something out to make it not infinite
03:31	callen	it's not infinite
03:32	callen	it's provably finite in both cases.
03:32	callen	that's how you can say static is a subset.
03:33	tomjack	so like (... (fn [x] ((fn [x] ((fn [x] x) x)) x)) ...) counts as just (fn [x] x)
03:33	callen	doesn't.
03:33	callen	I mean they're bisimilar
03:33	callen	but they're different "expressions" of the same thing
03:35	tomjack	I'm not following - I can trivially construct countably infinitely many such expressions of identity. but you say both "provably finite" and "doesn't"
03:35	SegFaultAX	Countably infinitely?
03:36	SegFaultAX	:)
03:36	tomjack	yes?
03:36	clojurebot	yes isn't is
03:37	callen	tomjack: a static type system can reject a program.
03:37	SegFaultAX	callen: I'm still struggling with your argument. The more I learn the more it seems invalid, but I'm not sure how to formulate why.
03:37	tomjack	seems to me a program which doesn't typecheck isn't a program at all
03:37	callen	SegFaultAX: tomjack and I are talking about something else.
03:38	SegFaultAX	callen: I know. I'm referring to our previous discussion.
03:38	callen	SegFaultAX: you have a fundamental misapprehension of the subject matter.
03:38	callen	I don't know else to explain n > n -1 in new terms.
03:39	SegFaultAX	callen: Perhaps I do, and I'm ok with that. I didn't study type theory in school as its own discipline so all of those I'm learning myself.
03:40	SegFaultAX	All of this, even.
03:43	tomjack	when I first saw something about a static type system constraining the set of expressible programs, it seemed to make sense to me, but now it just seems like gibberish :(
03:45	tomjack	maybe it's just semantic satiation
03:45	SegFaultAX	My argument is essentially that to build a dynamic type system, I can trivially start with a static type system and discard a lot of stuff (which is relatively simple by comparison). Going the other direction, there is a positively overwhelming amount of stuff I'd need to implement to get even a basic static type system going from a dynamic one.
03:45	SegFaultAX	That's an oversimplification of my original argument, but that's about the gist of it.
03:46	SegFaultAX	In other words, from Static -> Dynamic, I just throw away a bunch of the stuff that makes static awesome. Dynamic -> Static is purely additive and significantly more work.
03:46	SegFaultAX	They are equivalent due to turing completeness, however.
03:47	SegFaultAX	Which is why I said that dynamic languages are essentially a subset of static languages. And that fact seems trivially obvious to me
03:47	clgv	SegFaultAX: for adding an optional type system to a dynamic language have a look at core.typed ;)
03:47	SegFaultAX	clgv: We're not talking about specific implementations.
03:48	clgv	SegFaultAX: well you might find general ideas in there...
03:48	SegFaultAX	clgv: Still not talking about implementation details.
03:49	SegFaultAX	clgv: We're discussing static :> dynamic
03:50	callen	SegFaultAX: static constrains the solution space in ways dynamic does that. That means a set of expressible programs in a given static type system will countably less than the set of expressible programs in the dynamic type system.
03:50	callen	in ways dynamic does not*
03:50	SegFaultAX	callen: Sure, because that's useful to a programmer. But I can also discard those static checks if I choose to. I'm tired of saying this over and over.
03:51	tomjack	countably less?
03:51	Raynes	defprotocol Countably)
03:51	SegFaultAX	Raynes: Ahoy!
03:51	Raynes	Arrrrr matey.
03:52	tomjack	i.e. there are uncountably many expressible programs in a dynamic language? O_o
03:52	callen	tomjack: no
03:52	SegFaultAX	tomjack: Not quite.
03:52	tomjack	oh, silly me
03:52	SegFaultAX	tomjack: But that there are necessarily fewer in static languages than dynamic (according to callen)
03:52	tomjack	I forgot a subset can have the same cardinality as its superset
03:53	SegFaultAX	In this case it's a strict subset if the static system is sound.
03:53	tomjack	"fewer" seems confusing then
03:53	SegFaultAX	Well it is fewer if we're talking about a sound type system like eg Haskell's.
03:54	tomjack	"fewer" means there is an injection but no surjection, right?
03:56	Raynes	danielszmulewicz: How I feel about the ClojureScript formula you're adding to Homebrew and their acceptance of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvqgU7DPxhs
03:56	tomjack	I mean if there are countably many ways to write identity in clojure, and countably many in haskell, whence "fewer"? where is my misunderstanding?
03:57	tomjack	probably identity is a bad example :)
03:57	SegFaultAX	tomjack: Haskell rejects all formulations that are not sound.
03:58	tomjack	so the idea is something like we set up a bijection between syntactically (but not necessarily semantically) valid haskell programs and clojure programs, and then the typechecker knocks out some on the haskell side?
03:59	tomjack	it would seem to still be an open question whether there is a bijection between what's left
04:00	SegFaultAX	tomjack: How can there by any dispute?
04:01	callen	SegFaultAX: Java's type system rejects things too.
04:01	Raynes	I'm just gonna go watch American Psycho in the fetal position now.
04:01	callen	things that would fly in a dynamic type system.
04:01	callen	Raynes: you might want your 'chi' to be in a better state before watching it :P
04:01	tomjack	SegFaultAX: hilbert's hotel?
04:03	SegFaultAX	callen: Yes? Ok?
04:03	callen	okay, here's a thought experiment
04:03	callen	add an arbitrary limitation. like a byte limit to the programs
04:03	callen	so that we're not talking about an infinite set
04:04	callen	within a given kb of code, a static type system will reject programs that would've flown in a dynamic type system (that being the POINT of a static type system)
04:04	callen	making the possible expressible programs within that type system constrained relative to the dynamic type system.
04:05	tomjack	without infinities, I'm back to just being baffled by the implicit equivalence relation between static and dynamic programs :(
04:06	callen	tomjack: but at least the things we have to think about is more focused.
04:06	callen	lets shift to something even more focused, a contrivance.
04:06	SegFaultAX	Terrible thought experiment, but I get your point.
04:07	callen	lets imagine expressible programs A, B, and C in a given type system. We have two otherwise identical variants of the type system, one that is static and one that is dynamic.
04:07	callen	A is a valid program and passes the type checker, B is a valid program and doesn't pass the type checker, C is an invalid program and doesn't pass the type checker.
04:08	SegFaultAX	Type systems don't implement things, remember?
04:08	callen	A, B, and C are all potentially valid within the constraints of the type system.
04:08	callen	SegFaultAX: I said contrived and I'm still talking about expressible semantics within the confines of the type system.
04:08	SegFaultAX	A sound type system I guess.
04:08	callen	I qualified what I was about to say with "contrivance" before I'd said a word about it.
04:09	callen	you can add program D for an unsound type system if you like. you get my point.
04:09	SegFaultAX	We could just as easily go to the other end of the spectrum and built a complete type system.
04:09	klrr	polymorphism.... what is clojure's protocols? are they similar to haskells' type classes?
04:10	SegFaultAX	klrr: Protocols have been likened to dynamic type classes, but I wouldn't really think of them that way in general.
04:10	callen	the trade-off of a static type system is that you sacrifice some potentially valid expression space in order to constrain your type-check-okay expression space to things that are valid within the type system
04:10	callen	IN THE HOPES OF
04:10	callen	producing programs that are correct
04:10	callen	but not necessarily.
04:10	callen	type systems are expressly about validity within that system
04:10	callen	but these are the practical tradeoffs and implications thereof.
04:10	SegFaultAX	Unless the system is complete, and allows all valid programs.
04:10	SegFaultAX	Even if they can't be type checked.
04:11	callen	uhm, that's not possible.
04:11	SegFaultAX	Not possible or not practical?
04:11	callen	that's getting into Godel territory.
04:11	SegFaultAX	It most definitely is possible.
04:11	klrr	okey, are protocols uniqe to clojure compared to other lisps like scheme, cl and hy?
04:12	callen	a sound type system cannot express all valid expressible programs.
04:12	SegFaultAX	But a complete one can, by definition.
04:12	SegFaultAX	Dynamic systems are neither complete nor sound (at compile time)
04:13	klrr	haskells type system is turing complete
04:13	Raynes	Thanks.
04:13	SegFaultAX	Haha
04:14	callen	klrr: haskell 98 is not, it requires extensions to be turing complete.
04:14	tomjack	I have trouble separating the point behind the program-size limitation out from seemingly irrelevant concerns like "you have to waste space on type annotations"
04:14	tomjack	I think I kind of vaguely begin to see it though
04:14	klrr	Raynes: are you that famous dude who got money to go to some clojure conf ? =o
04:14	SegFaultAX	tomjack: It was a horrible experiment.
04:14	klrr	okey
04:14	callen	tomjack: I'm really just happy that I'm making progress with you.
04:14	callen	SegFaultAX: honestly it's a trivial point to make if you've done haskell before.
04:14	Raynes	The fact that you know who I am confirms that, klrr. :p
04:14	callen	SegFaultAX: another good way to illustrate the point is a static type system that enforces total programming.
04:15	klrr	if you guys are interested in type systems you should check out agda btw :) it got really cool type wystem
04:15	Raynes	I like the Coq.
04:15	callen	klrr: I mentioned Coq and Agda earlier while explaining something.
04:15	tomjack	in that case it makes perfect sense to me to say that there are programs which aren't expressible
04:16	klrr	okey, alsa clojures optional static typing does it provide extra safety or only better performance?
04:16	SegFaultAX	tomjack: The type system is merely a tool. You can choose to not participate in it if you don't need it.
04:16	callen	yes but when you do that, you're not creating things that reflect upon that type system.
04:16	callen	which goes back to what I said about participation within type systems
04:17	Raynes	Clojure doesn't have optional static typing.
04:17	callen	and brainfuck interpreters in haskell 98
04:17	Raynes	You might be confused with Racket.
04:17	Ember-	there's work on typed clojure
04:17	Raynes	Or perhaps heard about Typed Clojure, which is a third party and generally incomplete project.
04:17	Ember-	I think I heard it had been accepted as part of core development some time back?
04:17	Raynes	A contrib project.
04:17	Ember-	humm, I might remember wrong
04:17	SegFaultAX	callen: I don't get how that's a counter argument when my argument all along has been "you can choose not to use the type system"
04:18	twem2	core.typed?
04:18	clojurebot	core is what you put in a namespace when you can't think of a better way to avoid single-segment namespaces.
04:18	SegFaultAX	By unifying blah blah
04:18	Ember-	twem2: that one
04:18	callen	because you were acting as if the sentiment somehow disproved what I was saying about static being a subset of dynamic in expression space.
04:18	SegFaultAX	It's almost like a re-affirmation.
04:18	tomjack	does seem kind of confusing that a bunch of contrib projects have "core" in the name..
04:19	callen	I was the one, in these long conversations, that originally reified and made the point about type system participation in order to explain what I was trying to tell you.
04:19	callen	and spent hours doing so
04:19	callen	but school's out bitches. learn type systems on your own time. I'm back to fucking with JVM bytecode.
04:19	klrr	i wanna learn clojure after ive become better at haskell :)
04:19	callen	klrr: learn both, be a better person.
04:20	SegFaultAX	callen: School was never in. You're not an authority on this topic, so please don't pretend to be.
04:20	klrr	do i need to learn java first?
04:20	callen	klrr: no
04:20	callen	I don't know shit about Java.
04:20	tomjack	well, I was here to learn :) thanks
04:21	klrr	i already know the basic haskell, currently learning about FRP, arrows, lenses and pipes
04:21	SegFaultAX	klrr: Mostly irrelevant in Clojure.
04:22	klrr	does FRP exist in cljoure, are there any non-leaking, aignal is first class citizen imolementations?
04:22	klrr	signal*
04:22	tomjack	no.
04:23	SegFaultAX	klrr: Does it exist in Clojure is a strange question. Most languages aren't specifically designed with FRP in mind.
04:23	callen	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwXn6bBx5KI
04:23	klrr	there's none? then i have to port elerea to clojure when im learninh clojure :P
04:24	callen	c2 is actually a decent resource on this subject, although dated in some places.
04:24	tomjack	I haven't seen any FRP attempts which are F
04:25	tomjack	much less any other potentially desirable attributes
04:25	klrr	i dont get why it wouldnt be possivle in clojure? also i only know one öanguage thtat is built with FRP in mind
04:25	piranha	tomjack: javelin?
04:25	callen	javelin is unfortunately named.
04:25	callen	since there was already a JavelinJS
04:25	piranha	yeah
04:25	tomjack	javelin is just RP, by my (and I suspect klrr's) definition
04:25	fredyr	RxJava perhaps also?
04:26	piranha	tomjack: why not F?
04:26	tomjack	uhh
04:26	klrr	ive only read three papers on FRP and there is like hundred so im no expert :P
04:27	tomjack	I think the readme for javelin sets it out pretty well
04:27	klrr	link?
04:27	clojurebot	unlink: and constantly is just a function that takes any arguments and returns whatever argument is given
04:27	Raynes	klrr: Are you intoxicated by chance?
04:27	piranha	klrr: https://github.com/tailrecursion/javelin
04:27	klrr	whats that?
04:27	tomjack	"Cells are similar to Clojure atoms: they contain values, they can be dereferenced with deref or the @ reader macro, and their contents are mutated using the swap! and reset! core functions."
04:27	tomjack	if that doesn't mean "not F" I don't know what "F" means
04:28	klrr	Raynes: wot
04:29	Raynes	klrr: You're typoing in unpredictable and strange ways that are usually indicative of a drunk person.
04:29	klrr	ok, javalin seems a bit like original FRAN, the latest FRP impl. is much better IMO, leakless firs classs signal impl.
04:29	klrr	im using my phone
04:29	klrr	thats why
04:29	Raynes	Oh, that'll do it.
04:29	Raynes	Sorry for accusing you of being drunk. <3
04:30	klrr	im not allowed to get drunk yet xD
04:30	tomjack	I never looked at FRAN but I'm pretty sure it deserved the F
04:30	klrr	F?
04:30	Raynes	klrr: Never stopped me.
04:31	klrr	milk is fine for me
04:31	tomjack	"functional" - I don't think conal would have called it that if it wasn't that
04:31	klrr	ok
04:32	Raynes	klrr: I assume 'not allowed to get drunk yet' means under the age of 21, and the fact that you're admitting it indicates under the age of 18. How old are you, sir?
04:32	klrr	well, elerea is best atm IMO, although ive ported many combinators from Elm to hasnell to make it more useful
04:32	klrr	im not saying my age its personal info
04:33	Raynes	14, got it.
04:33	tomjack	I see in the elerea paper "maintain referential transparency"
04:33	tomjack	hadn't seen elerea before, but that is enough to make me want to investigate more
04:33	Foxboron	good morning klrr
04:33	klrr	morning
04:33	tomjack	the idea that FRP is about spreadsheets or behaviors are "managed references" completely baffles me
04:34	Foxboron	Raynes: klrr is in the same boat as you. Learning haskell before he is 16.
04:34	Raynes	Who knows. That's personal info. ;)
04:34	Foxboron	:3
04:34	Foxboron	Raynes: not according to yer blog.
04:34	clojurebot	make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php it is yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive
04:34	callen	klrr: the best advice you'll ever get is "just code"
04:35	callen	klrr: so uh...just code.
04:35	Raynes	Foxboron: I meant the assumption that he is learnign Haskell before 16.
04:35	Raynes	I'm making wild assumptions about his age.
04:35	klrr	tomjack: fran papaer explains it kinda badly imo, i look at elm langs explaination
04:35	Foxboron	Raynes: i know him :3 One of your blog posts inspired him actually ^^
04:35	Foxboron	(inb4 klrr gets mad at me <3)
04:36	Raynes	Ah, excellent.
04:36	klrr	nope
04:36	Raynes	In all seriousness.
04:36	callen	Foxboron: klrr do either of you have a github?
04:36	tomjack	hmm
04:36	klrr	not mad :P only at myself for that stupid pong game but ill rwerite the bad stuff today
04:36	tomjack	newtype Stream a = S (IO a)
04:36	tomjack	????
04:37	klrr	i removed my stuff from fithub anyway
04:37	Foxboron	callen: Yes. Same as my nick :)
04:37	klrr	might come up a pong game soon though:P
04:37	Raynes	klrr: I apologize for being silly. It takes my breath away that I could ever have contributed to the inspiration of someone else with the things I've done. You're a rockstar already.
04:38	Foxboron	Raynes: He is a veryvery bright kid. But he will attempt to deny that :)
04:39	klrr	Foxboron showed your blog to me after ive started learn haskell since a fuy tehnix knew a website with slides and learninh clojure is mostly since foxboron knows it and rick hickey presentations is cool
04:39	callen	Foxboron: you get to vote. Do I implement Rack::attack for Ring/Clojure or do I implement proxy+ with annotation support?
04:39	callen	Raynes: I want your vote too.
04:39	klrr	although your blog postvwas little insiring i got to admit
04:40	Foxboron	callen: Uhhhhh. I am not profficient enough in Clojure to say that
04:40	Raynes	callen: The former because I can use it.
04:40	Raynes	callen: Write it and then add it to refheap's API for example purposes and… testing… and stuff.
04:40	callen	Raynes: you'll like what I have in mind for this.
04:40	Raynes	I just want you to do free work for me.
04:41	callen	Raynes: I'm just racking up github points bro.
04:41	callen	Raynes: I hear I can use them to get...things.
04:41	Raynes	Like global mutable state!
04:41	Raynes	~rimshot
04:41	clojurebot	Badum, tish
04:41	callen	do ho ho
04:42	callen	Raynes: probably won't need process-scope global mutable state.
04:42	callen	...maybe.
04:42	Raynes	Foxboron: Badass that he is learning Haskell. I think it's a good choice. If I had to do it all over again I'd still start with Haskell because it made far more sense than any object oriented language I used.
04:42	callen	probably.
04:42	callen	Foxboron: I learned Haskell long long after I'd learned many other programming languages. I don't use it anymore but it's always there in the back of my head informing my thoughts and providing structure.
04:42	callen	even though I don't actually have a use for most static type systems, Haskell's included.
04:43	Raynes	I'm going to go actually watch American Psycho now, since it's 1:30AM.
04:43	Foxboron	Raynes: Found him in #programmers frustrated to not being able to learn anything. So i invited him over too a IRC with some programming friends to give him inspiration, help and mentoring ^^
04:43	callen	I didn't know #programmers was a thing.
04:43	Raynes	Foxboron: You're a scholar and a gentleman.
04:43	Foxboron	callen: i do not know haskell :P Got other people with those skills :3
04:43	Raynes	Foxboron: We shall discuss this further at a later instant.
04:43	callen	I originally came here years and years and years ago because a lot of EFnet ##C people moved over.
04:44	Foxboron	Raynes: I have just moved into an apartment and going to catch breakfast anyway. Kebab on the menu.
04:45	callen	now I'm hungry.
04:46	Foxboron	callen: got an apartment in the middle of the town. First time in my life that a kebab store is closer then the groccerystore o.o
04:47	callen	nice.
04:47	callen	I'm making plans to move to SF.
04:47	Foxboron	callen: well, i live in Norway :3
04:48	callen	every Norwegian person I've met in the US has been sad to return home.
04:48	callen	I think it's the weather.
04:48	Foxboron	I live in Bergen. Most rainy town in Norway
04:49	Foxboron	I'd like to visit SF tho. Would be awsome.
04:50	callen	making the most of a visit to SF requires planning though.
04:50	Foxboron	pft
04:50	gko_	But isn't Norway the happiest country?
04:50	Foxboron	Improvising.
04:50	gko_	http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mef45ejmi/01-norway/
04:50	Foxboron	gko_, happiest? I don't know. Wealthiest? Sure.
04:51	gko_	How much is a coffee in your place?
04:51	Foxboron	I don't drink coffee
04:51	Foxboron	Yeah. Forbed believe GDP == Happiness
04:51	Foxboron	forbes*
04:51	callen	GDP actually == oil in Norway's case
04:52	Foxboron	Our only export is Oil and wepons
04:52	Foxboron	and fish
04:52	Foxboron	but that is a minor export considering the other two
05:37	noidi	cemerick, thanks a lot for austin, it works very well!
05:37	noidi	it seems to be much more robust than the original browser repl
05:39	cemerick	noidi: thanks for the contributions :-)
05:39	cemerick	But, yeah, that's the point :-)
05:40	cemerick	There's a number of other corners that can be further cleaned up to simplify the thing and make its failure conditions less common / mysterious
05:41	noidi	I should write a little blog post about how to use Austin with Counterclockwise. CCW doesn't start its REPL via Leiningen so the middleware approach doesn't work there.
05:42	noidi	I worked around it by setting up a cljs-repl profile, which sets up Austin in its user.clj: https://www.refheap.com/17379
05:43	noidi	I then start an NREPL with the Austin middleware using `lein with-profile +cljs-repl repl :headless :port 9998`
05:43	cemerick	noidi: well, you must end up using the piggieback middleware at some point?
05:44	noidi	(I have the alias `cljs-repl` for that in my project.clj)
05:44	clgv	noidi: I think laurent wants to devote some love to the leiningen integration next (i.e. after the current tasks are finished)
05:45	malesch	cemerick: as I just see you online, can I ask a short question regarding friend and oauth2 integration (ddellacosta/friend-oauth2)?
05:45	noidi	so my workflow is: (1) run `lein cljs-repl` in the shell (2) choose Connect to REPL -> localhost:9998 in CCW, (3) run `(cljs-repl)` in the CCW REPL window that opens up
05:45	noncom	i need to have objects with some mutable fields... what is the best way for that in Clojure? I suppose a defrecord with atom fields would be idiomatic?
05:46	noidi	and of course (4) reload the browser window :)
05:46	cemerick	malesch: shoot
05:47	cemerick	noidi: part of that must be your external HTTP server, though...you are running leiningen, so if everything was integrated, the profile wouldn't get you much.
05:47	malesch	cemerick: making my first friend/oauth steps...google recommends oauth2 token validation. friend-oauth seems not to support this. if not in the workflow directly where can this be done? I thought of the credential-fn but I think I cannot specifically override this in the friend-oauth workflow.
05:48	cemerick	malesch: you'll have to ask ddellacosta when he gets in; I know ~nothing about oauth :-)
05:48	callen	malesch: I've implemented OAuth2 providers and clients in multiple languages.
05:48	callen	but not with Friend.
05:48	noidi	cemerick, the only reason I run my HTTP server in a separate process, is that all the fancy CCW features like autocompletion only work for a REPL started from CCW
05:49	noidi	and as Austin only works in a REPL started from Leiningen, I need to use separate REPLs for the server and the CLJS RPEL :/
05:49	cemerick	noidi: not so :-) Just add the ccw server-side utils dep to your project.clj: https://clojars.org/ccw/ccw.server
05:49	cemerick	or, user profile, more likely
05:50	malesch	cemerick: thanks will catch him :)
05:50	malesch	callen: is token validation only an issue with google or done with all providers?
05:51	noidi	cemerick, wow, thanks so much! wish I had known about this sooner!
05:51	cemerick	noidi: I started work on austin while using CCW, so the separate REPLs aren't necessary. Just clone your first (Clojure) session, then turn the clone into your cljs repl.
05:51	noidi	oh, all that sweet middleware I can finally use :')
05:52	noidi	what do you mean by cloning?
05:52	callen	malesch: Google's implementation is relatively vanilla. Are you referring to the access_token or something else?
05:52	callen	malesch: publicly accessible OAuth2 APIs are generally tripod-only authorization.
05:52	callen	I've used tripod authorization and "known entity" authentication that doesn't use the tripod.
05:53	callen	malesch: the RFC for OAuth2 is pretty readable and provides a good sense of "base state" for how most OAuth2 APIs end up looking. The problem is that it's a framework and not a protocol and the provider is free to fuck you over in whatever manner amuses them most above and beyond the RFC.
05:55	callen	some providers behave themselves. Any I've implemented and used have been very close to the RFC.
05:55	malesch	callen: thanks :) will check it
05:56	callen	malesch: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6749
05:57	malesch	callen: gracias!
05:57	cemerick	noidi: all proper nREPL clients should allow you to clone (take a copy of) an open session. An easy way to get a new environment open to the nREPL server without creating a new connection, and retaining any dynamic var state that you had set up in the original session.
05:57	cemerick	noidi: there's a button for it in the ccw nREPL window
05:59	noidi	cemerick, this is so cool. I feel like Clojure tooling leaped 2 years forward in a couple of seconds.
05:59	noidi	now my only question is: why is ccw.server such a well-kept secret?! :)
06:00	noidi	I have to bug Laurent to mention it somewhere in the docs
06:03	dark_element	cemerick, I figured out how to print out browser connection state in repl. All I have to do is create a custom cljs repl. https://www.refheap.com/17381
06:04	cemerick	dark_element: cool! You're now more of an expert in the cljs repl client side than I am :-)
06:06	dark_element	cemerick, you are too kind good sir. I just added one line to connect fn.
06:07	dark_element	cemerick, interestingly even though i get "Browser connected" in repl. There are states where repl still prints exceptions.
06:08	dark_element	cemerick, I am guessing it's the timeout duration where repl server still is expecting connection from closed browser window.
06:15	cemerick	dark_element: do you have a stack trace or similar?
06:16	dark_element	cemerick, wait i'll try to generate it again.
06:19	supersym	dark_element: sweet
06:32	dark_element	cemerick, comments show context (repl/browser/terminal) https://www.refheap.com/17382
06:32	cemerick	wow
06:33	cemerick	dark_element: ok, so the second evaluation is being sent prior to the browser re-connecting?
06:33	cemerick	or. finishing reconnecting?
06:34	cemerick	dark_element: the threaddeath error on interrupt is expected (see end of this section: https://github.com/cemerick/piggieback#rhino-clojurescript-environment-default)
06:34	dark_element	cemerick second evaluation is sent after "Browser connected." is printed again which is sent from the js on that page.
06:35	dark_element	cemerick, ahh almost forgot about that.
06:36	cemerick	dark_element: the second evaluation happens on line 9, but "Browser connected." appears on line 67?
06:37	cemerick	the error shouldn't occur (that's what the queue is for), but I just want to make sure I understand the sequence of actions
06:37	dark_element	cemerick ohh i ma sorry i was referring to the third one line #68
06:37	dark_element	am*
06:39	dark_element	cemerick I am ok with evaluation on #9 failing since that browser window does not exist anymore. But evaluation on line #68 should run on the newly opened browser window right?
06:40	cemerick	dark_element: all the evaluations should succeed; pending evaluations go into a queue, and should be picked up by the next browser(s) that connect
06:45	dark_element	cemerick, Is this handled by piggieback or cljs.browser.repl?
06:45	noidi	cemerick, is it OK to reuse a repl-env after :cljs/quit?
06:45	noidi	I get a NullPointerException from Austin when I try to do that
06:46	noidi	in my user.clj I create a repl-env, swap! it into browser-repl-env, and store it in a defonce
06:46	noidi	when I first do a (cljs-repl repl-env), it works fine
06:46	noidi	but if I :cljs/quit and re-open the REPL with (cljs-repl repl-env) I get a NullPointerException
06:47	cemerick	noidi: nope, :cljs/quit drops the session
06:47	cemerick	dark_element: nREPL, actually
06:47	cemerick	each evaluation on a session goes into a queue
06:48	noidi	cemerick, OK, thanks
06:49	cemerick	dark_element: the promise created in `open-exchange` in austin then blocks a cljs evaluation until the browser channel connects https://github.com/cemerick/austin/blob/master/src/clj/cemerick/austin.clj#L110
06:51	noidi	cemerick, to me the use of `def` suggests that an env is something meant to be reused https://github.com/cemerick/austin/blame/master/browser-connected-repl-sample/README.md#L35
06:51	noidi	maybe change that to a `let` around the `cljs-repl` call?
06:51	dark_element	cemerick, I was not using austin for the stacktrace i sent earlier.
06:52	cemerick	dark_element: oh, ok; well, I can't really help with classic browser-REPL stuff :-)
06:52	dark_element	cemerick, I was using piggieback :)
06:54	dark_element	cemerick, I thought this was handled at piggieback and austin is just routing repl connections to different repl servers.
06:54	cemerick	dark_element: sure, but the connection (or lack thereof) stuff is related to the browser-repl implementation
06:55	cemerick	dark_element: piggieback just patches over the parts of ClojureScript that assume it's running in a terminal. It delegates evaluation entirely to the REPL environment you're using.
06:56	dark_element	cemerick all right let go back to austin again then.
06:57	cemerick	noidi: you're right that other REPL envs can be reused. That can probably be classified as a bug, though I'll have to figure out some other way to expire the corresponding sessions.
06:57	cemerick	a finalizer on the record type, maybe
07:07	Anderkent	$findfn ({:a 1} {:b 2} {:c 3}) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}
07:07	lazybot	[]
07:07	Anderkent	$findfn {:a 1} {:b 2} {:c 3} {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}
07:08	lazybot	[clojure.set/union clojure.core/conj clojure.core/merge]
07:25	ciphergoth	If I wanted to implement something like a task queue with an atom, AFAICT there's no easy way to do it, because it's hard to implement atomically popping a task from the queue
07:26	ciphergoth	since swap just returns the new value; it's not easy for my function to return both the popped task and the new queue
07:28	ciphergoth	Should I just implement the enhanced swap I need with compare-and-set! and a loop?
07:28	ciphergoth	Or use a ref?
07:29	ciphergoth	Or have a "most recently popped task" field in the atom that I can read from the return value from swap?
07:29	danielszmulewicz	cemerick: Is it possible to use piggyback and cljsbuild together? Any chance to see an example config (project.clj)?
07:40	noidi	ciphergoth, you could use a PersistentQueue ( http://stackoverflow.com/a/2495105/13340 ) in a ref, then in a single transaction `peek` the next task and then update the queue with `pop`
08:00	ciphergoth	noidi: that would work if what I was implementing was exactly a task queue, but unfortunately it's a slightly more complex data structure
08:00	ciphergoth	noidi: I was just looking for a simple example of a concurrent data structure that needs a simultaneous-update-and-return-value operation
08:39	ronen_	hi guys. can anyone please help me with emacs? I am trying to follow the tutorial on the clojure-doc site, but I can't figure out how to run the tests
08:40	ronen_	they say I should run C-c C-
08:40	ronen_	which emacs says in unknown
08:40	jcsims	C-c C-,
08:40	jcsims	is that what you're running?
08:41	ronen_	rr i didn't notice the comma
08:41	ronen_	thank you!
08:41	jcsims	sure
08:42	ronen_	would you happen to know what it means if it says ClassNotFoundException: clojure.test.mode ?
08:43	jcsims	not off the top of my head - you compiled the test file with C-c C-k?
08:44	noidi	ciphergoth, can't you follow PersistentQueue's example and have the analogues of separate peek/pop operations? one to get the task and another to calculate the next version of your data structure.
08:44	ronen_	I did
08:46	ronen_	weird, it's working now after restarting emacs
08:47	jcsims	it just sounds like that namespace wasn't loaded somehow ronen_ - maybe a missed save, or compile?
08:47	jcsims	I'm still not that familiar with clojure yet, so others could probably shed some insight on why that might crop up
08:52	xeqi	ronen_: I've gotten that a few times, but not sure what causes it
08:52	xeqi	doing M-x clojure-test-mode in the file twice fixes it though
08:53	ronen_	thanks:)
08:59	jcidaho	Hi. I knocked up some elisp to switch to the right nrepl buffer based on the current buffer. So if I have 2 nrepls open for project x and project y, if I open a project x file and run the function (key mapped of course) then I land on the right nrepl buffer. Wondering if any nrepl guys in here, to see if worth adding to nrepl.el or not
09:03	deg	Anyone have a tool or trick to keep the version number in my README.md consistent with the latest version I deploy to clojars?
09:04	yazirian	jcidaho: you might want to post to the mailing list about it -- there's a link to it in the README. At least then you aren't waiting for someone to show up :)
09:05	jcsims	or possibly submit a pull request to start a conversation about it as well?
09:05	TimMc	mpenet: I'm only mildly concerned about query validation in Cassaforte.
09:06	jcidaho	yazirian: jsims: will do. I've got an issue wiring it into nrepl.el I was hoping to ask someone about. I can't seem to get my defun registered in nrepl.el - 'Symbol's function definition is void.
09:07	TimMc	mpenet: The only thing that really bothers me is that a nil session given to a multi.cql query can cause a syntactic reinterpretation -- and that has happened multiple times during our switch from Hector.
09:07	jcidaho	feels like a newbie elisp issue, but I'll go through the resources you mention
09:10	mpenet	TimMc: Right, understandable. To be honnest that's one of the reason I kept these things separated in my own c* cql client
09:11	mpenet	TimMc: "ease of use" or shorter api can mean headaches in some cases, and in the end I am not sure it's that helpful to the user. Then I guess it's a matter of personnal choice/taste
09:12	TimMc	How did you keep them separated?
09:12	jamii	This confuses me:
09:12	jamii	(var-get my-var)
09:12	jamii	;; nil
09:12	jamii	(eval my-var)
09:12	jamii	;; #<Var: --unnamed-->
09:12	jamii	(eval `(fn [] ~my-var))
09:12	jamii	;; NullPointerException
09:13	mpenet	TimMc: you never pass session to a query fn
09:13	mpenet	you can pass a query in string, bound statement form, or map (hayt query) form to execute, but that's it
09:13	mpenet	TimMc: https://github.com/mpenet/alia or maybe I missunderstood what you meant
09:15	TimMc	jamii: Please don't paste more than 1 or 2 lines to the channel -- use a pastebin such as http://refheap.com or http://gist.github.com instead.
09:15	mpenet	well, there is no protection against a nil session either, but that would infer that there is a dynamic var for it, and think the query value is nil
09:15	jamii	TimMc: sorry :S
09:15	mpenet	causing an obvious error
09:15	mpenet	TimMc: btw how did you end up with a nil session in the first place?
09:16	TimMc	mpenet: It's in an atom that gets initialized by a startup function, and I was doing repl development. :-)
09:16	mpenet	ah!
09:17	dnolen	jamii: you're trying to embed an object directly into the syntax, that only works in a couple of cases, I can never remember which.
09:19	jamii	dnolen: It works for functions. I'm trying to embed a reference to a function so that the lookup happens at runtime, like using (#'foo ...)
09:19	dnolen	jamii: yes it doesn't really work in general, and even for functions I think it's a hack mostly for some internal reasons
09:20	jamii	dnolen: I'm just confused as to why vars evaluate to themselves normally but are resolved when inside other code
09:20	jamii	In fact, even (eval [my-var]) gives a NullPointerException
09:20	jamii	But (eval my-var) works fine. Maybe I need to go read through the compiler...
09:21	dnolen	jamii: in anycase, I don't really have an answer to your question beyond I just wouldn't do that.
09:21	jamii	dnolen: :D
09:21	ambrosebs	is the cljs ast specified somewhere?
09:22	dnolen	ambrosebs: no, though bbloom and I have talked about how useful that would be.
09:22	dnolen	ambrosebs: in particular it would be nice to make the analyzer implement multiple passes - like a core AST that gets enriched by other passes so that there's enough information for the compiler.
09:23	ambrosebs	dnolen: yes I remember this convo
09:24	ambrosebs	dnolen: I'm working on hygienic transformation on CLJS ASTs. Almost pulled my hair out trying to work out the AST nodes.
09:24	ambrosebs	dnolen: thankfully I'm almost done.
09:24	tbaldridge	ambrosebs: dnolen: and at some point, please drop that AST down to a SSA level. Transversing blocks of insts is waaay easier than walking a tree.
09:25	tbaldridge	at least those are the concepts I'm working with atm
09:26	tbaldridge	plus, blocks of instructions can then be queried by core.logic or datalog with minimal effort.
09:26	ambrosebs	dnolen: any tools to get js* nodes into a nice AST of javascript operations?
09:27	dnolen	ambrosebs: nope that was another bbloom idea
09:27	dnolen	ambrosebs: it would be helpful to write down your notes somewhere if you have a chance for future spelunkers
09:27	ambrosebs	dnolen: ok, I guess I'll have to do it.
09:28	tbaldridge	but why do we need a schema definition, it's just data :-P
09:28	ambrosebs	dnolen: I think I'll go through the analyzer properly and make a core.typed out of the AST
09:28	ambrosebs	dnolen: ..another time :P
09:30	dnolen	ambrosebs: if you write up your basic notes, I can fill in the details - of particular interest would be anything you considered to be weird or confusing corners
09:30	dnolen	also we should get Bronsa to contribute notes
09:31	ambrosebs	jonasen: do you happen to have notes on the CLJS AST?
09:31	dnolen	tbaldridge: AST -> SSA sounds like analyzer pass? :)
09:32	jamii	Hmmm, all of these work fine (do (def x nil) (eval #'x) (eval [#'x]) (eval `[~#'x]))
09:32	ambrosebs	dnolen: is there anything other than the compiler that uses the CLJS analyzer?
09:32	tbaldridge	dnolen: sure. I just wonder if many "optimizations" could be better done at a SSA level.
09:32	tbaldridge	ambrosebs: core.async uses it
09:32	ambrosebs	tbaldridge: thx
09:33	tbaldridge	but mostly just to expand macros, so you shouldn't have to worry about too much there.
09:33	ambrosebs	ok
09:33	ambrosebs	I meant more the AST itself.
09:33	dnolen	tbaldridge: probably though we do very few optimizations currently in the compiler - nearly everything important happens in function invoke emission.
09:34	dnolen	ambrosebs: there are the various CLJS based Clojure compiler projects but it's not clear how closely they follow CLJS
09:35	ambrosebs	dnolen: haha not more ASTs!
09:35	dnolen	ambrosebs: but I don't think that should hold us back, the current AST representation is definitely not something to depend on.
09:35	ambrosebs	dnolen: no, just a minor headache. I'll get back to it.
09:35	maleghast	Hello all
09:36	maleghast	Anyone got any good ideas for "pretty" urls in a site driven by Compojure..?
09:36	dnolen	tbaldridge: definitely curious about core.logic over SSA, doing tree based stuff is never fun.
09:37	maleghast	I want to get away from /page/52020403367093c9c830481e (as an example) and would rather it were /contact
09:38	maleghast	(Internally I still need the URL to equate to "fetch page with id 52020403367093c9c830481e", preferably without simply creating a hard-coded relationship between /contact and the page method and the id I want)
09:38	hugod	is it normal for cljsbuild build auto to use half a core cpu when idling?
09:39	dnolen	hugod: no
09:39	hugod	mm, wonder what's causing it then
09:41	hyPiRion	maleghast: hm, how do get the string/id "52020403367093c9c830481e" to begin with?
09:47	TimMc	maleghast: I think you'd want to treat "contact" as the page ID.
09:47	ambrosebs	dnolen: how do I get the binding name of the Exception bound in a catch from an AST node?
09:47	TimMc	So perhaps /page/contact is really /page/$id
09:48	TimMc	(or whatever the compojure syntax is)
09:48	maleghast	hyPiRion: It's the _id from the Mongo Record
09:48	dnolen	ambrosebs: pretty sure it the :name field of a try* AST node
09:48	ambrosebs	dnolen: got it thx
09:48	maleghast	TimMc: That might well be a good point, thanks
09:49	maleghast	TimMc: In fact, that solves it completely for me - I don't know why I didn't think of it before - thanks!
09:50	TimMc	It's how WordPress treats page slugs.
09:50	hyPiRion	TimMc: it's /page/:id afaik
09:50	maleghast	hyPiRion: Yes, it is :-)
09:54	TimMc	maleghast: If you don't want the /page prefix, you may be able to define a /:catchall route at the end and display the relevant page if it exists in the database.
09:54	maleghast	TimMc: That's what I am doing - right now...
09:54	maleghast	TimMc: your answer made me think, and made me feel a bit silly that I had not seen it for myself.
09:55	TimMc	:-)
09:55	maleghast	TimMc: :-) Appreciate the application of the cluebat ;-)
09:55	hyPiRion	maleghast: that happens to everyone :) I do it all the time.
09:55	hugod	reducing clsbuild's polling to 1s from 100ms gets me down to 10% cpu usage
09:56	ambrosebs	dnolen: is the "catch" local binding name gensym'd somewhere?
09:56	maleghast	hyPiRion: I always reckon I get there x10 faster if I involve someone else's mind
09:57	mdrogalis	Depends on where you want to get to. :)
09:57	ambrosebs	dnolen: I can see it does, but I can't see how/where.
09:57	dnolen	ambrosebs: look at try in the core.clj macro file
09:58	hyPiRion	maleghast: For me, it's more about expressing the problem. If I can explain what the problem is, I usually tend to understand where the problem is/find a way to solve the problem.
09:58	dnolen	ambrosebs: in same dir as analyzer.clj
09:58	ambrosebs	dnolen: got it, easy
10:01	ambrosebs	dnolen: what is pmasks in deftype?
10:02	dnolen	ambrosebs: an optimization (which may or may not stay), it's the bitmask of protocols that the type implements
10:03	ambrosebs	dnolen: can I get the body of deftype from anywhere?
10:03	ambrosebs	dnolen: IIRC is it in a 'do' block with the deftype*?
10:04	ambrosebs	dnolen: ah ok. found it.
10:04	ambrosebs	I'm going to have to type check a lot of js*...
10:05	maleghast	hyPiRion TimMc - Thanks for your help; totally nailed it. :-)
10:07	dnolen	ambrosebs: perhaps you can avoid that by analyzing the original form? for the most part js* is an inline optimization that is equivalent to a function call.
10:09	ambrosebs	dnolen: I'd need to copy the analyzer for that right?
10:10	dnolen	ambrosebs: ? the original form in the js* AST node
10:10	dnolen	"is in"
10:11	ambrosebs	dnolen: really? :form just gives me (js* "(~{} + ~{})" 1 2) for (+ 1 2)
10:12	noncom	are all numbers in clojure boxed?
10:13	nDuff	noncom: not in modern releases, no.
10:13	tbaldridge	noncom: no, but you have to type hint fns
10:14	dnolen	ambrosebs: oh hm
10:14	noncom	ok, i'm doing speed-sensitive calculations for many splines at once and i get a serious performance drop... i will try to optimise with type hints
10:15	nDuff	noncom: enable warn-on-reflection to determine where you need them.
10:15	tbaldridge	noncom: also, remember that stuff like map, reduce, etc, are doing allocations to create collections. That can impact performance as well.
10:16	noncom	yeah... but i want to try to port a java spline calculation algo to clojure... so now trying to get same performance
10:16	noncom	and i use map and reduce to be idiomatic then
10:17	tbaldridge	noncom: in that case you might want to look at reducers, http://clojure.org/reducers
10:21	noncom	nDuff: hmmm, with warn-on-reflection it found some places, but in 3rd party libs, not in any of my code... so type hints will not do then right?
10:22	noncom	tbaldridge: i might be havng like 1000 simultaneous real-time spline calculations, and reducers are said to be based on fork/join so will they work for such a case?
10:22	nDuff	noncom: Depends on the details.
10:22	noncom	or is the best option to fall back to java?
10:23	noncom	nDuff: i'll try to type-hint anyway and see what it comes with
10:23	nDuff	noncom: ...re: reducers, yes, I'd certainly expect them to work.
10:24	tbaldridge	noncom: they should be fine, if you store them in a vector they should reduce in large chunks.
10:24	noncom	gonna try then
10:24	Odinodin	Can anyone recommend a validation library for a Ring-app ? (looking at validateur and bouncer atm)
10:24	noncom	how do i type hint a [] of floats?
10:25	tbaldridge	noncom: ^floats
10:25	noncom	i have point coordinates stored like [1.0 2.0 3.0]
10:25	noncom	ok
10:25	nDuff	tbaldridge: isn't ^floats an array, not a vector?
10:25	tbaldridge	noncom: there are plural overrides for most primitives in Clojure, so you can say ^object or ^objects, ^byte ^bytes, etc.
10:26	tbaldridge	well yeah, if he was typehinting I thought he'd use arrays.
10:26	noncom	oh i see
10:26	noncom	so i better use arrays
10:26	nDuff	noncom: yes.
10:26	ambrosebs	dnolen: do the fields of a deftype magically get scoped in a extend-type?
10:26	tbaldridge	actually you can also use vector-of
10:26	tbaldridge	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/1.2.0/clojure.core/vector-of
10:26	tbaldridge	generates a vector that can only hold :primitive
10:27	noncom	tat would be better, i do not want to handle arrays, since [] syntax is much more concsise
10:27	dnolen	ambrosebs: re: js* wonder if we can special case that to preserve original form ...
10:28	tbaldridge	noncom: I'd start with type hinting the scalar args of your functions, that will probably be the best performance impact right there.
10:28	tbaldridge	that and turn on reflection warnings
10:28	dnolen	ambrosebs: if you look at detype/record macros you can see we carry the fields forward
10:29	ambrosebs	dnolen: do I have any hope of picking that up from the macroexpansion?
10:29	noncom	ok
10:30	dnolen	ambrosebs: I'd probably be OK w/ taking a patch for this, perhaps this can be done via meta
10:31	noncom	oh... ^float is not an option.. only ^double is... so i will have to make double->float conversions all over the place to interface with the java lib... hmm
10:31	dnolen	ambrosebs: we attach field metadata to deftype implementation methods, if you look at parse fn* in analyzer.clj you can see we look at meta to get the fields
10:43	silasdavis	what would be the best way to load some data from a file into a data structure to persist in memory across requests when using ring/compojure?
11:05	Fretsejaz	Hello
11:08	tylere	Is there an elegant way, given an integer, to get a seq of the digits of the number?
11:08	arrdem	,(apply list (pr-str 9001))
11:08	clojurebot	(\9 \0 \0 \1)
11:09	tylere	Yea, I need (9 0 0 1) not (\9 \0 \0 \1) though
11:09	tylere	My first attempt was along those lines
11:11	hyPiRion	,(loop [m 9001 acc ()] (if (zero? m) acc (recur (quot m 10) (conj acc (rem m 10)))))
11:11	clojurebot	(9 0 0 1)
11:11	gtrak	negatives?
11:11	gtrak	,(loop [m -9001 acc ()] (if (zero? m) acc (recur (quot m 10) (conj acc (rem m 10)))))
11:11	clojurebot	(-9 0 0 -1)
11:12	gtrak	,(apply list (pr-str -9001))
11:12	hyPiRion	gtrak: Math/abs then
11:12	clojurebot	(\- \9 \0 \0 \1)
11:12	tylere	(map (comp read-string str) (seq (str num))) works
11:12	tylere	but that makes me vaguely ill
11:13	hyPiRion	you'd only want the digits of the number, so the prepended minus isn't needed.
11:13	arrdem	hum... how to force integer division?
11:13	gtrak	int cast both the args?
11:13	chwals	is there some way to forcibly delete stuff in paredit? i have a mess of unbalanced paren's and square brackets i can't get rid of
11:15	gtrak	chwals: mark and C-w
11:16	chwals	thanks
11:21	Fretsejaz	Does anyone here use Clojure professionally?
11:22	mgaare	yes
11:22	egghead	:)
11:23	binski	Yes, ClojureCLR
11:23	nDuff	Fretsejaz: Depends on the context, somewhat.
11:24	tylere	nDuff: You aren't in NC by any chance are you?
11:25	nDuff	tylere: Not at all; austin.tx.us
11:25	tylere	heh, a little out of my range then
11:25	arrdem	nDuff: w00t atx
11:25	noncom	Fretsejaz: I'm trying to...
11:26	noncom	actually, pretty successful, although there is much to learn and always a need for help and advice from the community
11:26	noncom	i know that some "serious" companies use clojure as well... line banks, media and stuff.. although i can give no detail on this
11:27	Fretsejaz	Neat, I'm in a .net shop and have been starting to learn Clojure. I doubt they'd be too open to having clojure code in production though
11:27	noncom	(nth) is pretty slow, what are alternatives to using it when i need to pick an element from a big collection and i have the index of the element that i need?
11:29	noncom	Fretsejaz: i heard that one of the typical ways of clojure getting into production is like "can i use this tiny library to significantly improve concurrency/threading/data-processing (or smth else)" ?
11:29	mgaare	noncom: what kind of collection? if it's a vector then it should be very fast
11:30	gtrak	Fretsejaz, noncom: testing too
11:31	gtrak	'the grinder' now supports clojure
11:31	noncom	yeah, actualy just about anything (except for the frontend maybe)
11:31	gtrak	and you could make a case for unit/integration tests with few implications on the real codebase
11:31	jtoy	i have a weird error I have never seen before, I have my app_config loaded with this: https://www.refheap.com/ , when i do lein repl it works and I see data, when I run from cron liek so it doesnt work: 'cd ~/project && lein trampoline run -m jtoy.jobs/run'
11:31	Fretsejaz	Biggest issue would be getting people to read it. Engineers around here don't seem too keen on adding new languages
11:32	jtoy	this was working for me bfore, all I did was move the app_config definition to its own ns
11:32	jtoy	why would this work with lein repl but not lein trampoline?
11:32	noncom	mgaare: vector, yes.. takes around 0.081157 msecs.. i think it can't get any faster..
11:33	noncom	Fretsejas: you can try introducing it s
11:33	noncom	*slowly
11:33	noncom	for example, try first using it as a scripting language
11:33	noncom	for small tasks
11:34	Fretsejaz	Noncom: I'd have to learn it more, I'm a total novice at the moment. Thinking of doing Project Euler with it
11:34	noncom	yeah, probably euler is cool. don't forget to also have some "real" personal project with it
11:34	noncom	boosts learning well
11:34	gtrak	I would use it where I'd use python/perl in the past. I was doing a large refactoring of a code-base and I needed to keep track of operations, classpaths, file hashes, and generate reports. I tried doing it in python, but I started throwing up after an hour.
11:35	tylere	I'd recommend Rosalind over Euler: http://rosalind.info/problems/locations/
11:35	jtoy	when I say doesnt work, I mean the app_config comes up as nil causing my app to die
11:35	tylere	Real problems grounded in actual science rather than a bunch of problems that often are basically "find the trick in the math"
11:35	Fretsejaz	Well I want to make my own SQL formater since I'm dissatisfied with the ones I've found.
11:35	tylere	rather than being actual implementation challenges
11:35	gtrak	Fretsejaz: actually, another dev wrote a verification script in perl, I ported it over to clojure for my work. He writes clojure now :-).
11:36	noncom	jtoy: the refheap link is not for a codepiece..
11:36	gtrak	since I didn't know perl.
11:36	gtrak	i learned enough to port the script over.
11:37	Fretsejaz	Tylere: I've wanted to do project Euler for a while as a personal goal, but this looks interesting as well! Why not both.
11:38	gtrak	Fretsejaz: he was a much more senior and grouchy dev than me, and seeing his code translated might have shown some value.
11:39	jtoy	noncom: yeah, oops, https://www.refheap.com/17396 , its not the code though, it seems like a lein issue,
11:39	Fretsejaz	gtrak: We don't automate much around here, though that's being turned around. It's... an odd situation small/mid sized company
11:39	noncom	,(first nil)
11:39	clojurebot	nil
11:40	gtrak	the script for that task was a one-time thing, it was easier to do it that way than use a spreadsheet
11:40	noncom	jtoy: so your with-open returns nill
11:40	gtrak	running svn commands, organizing everything, and generating hiccup html in one script I think was pretty cool.
11:40	jtoy	noncom: how would I debug this? I see it working in lein repl where I can test it, in lein trampolie i see it print nil
11:40	Fretsejaz	gotcha, well I'd still have to learn clojure, I'm just starting
11:41	noncom	jtoy: well, personally my stile is to println everything so that i know where it dies and what are the values there. also there might be a fie-reading exception, so a try-catch could do
11:41	jtoy	and this was working before, the only change i made was move the app_config function to its ow namespace
11:42	noncom	jtoy: first see if it actually sees the file
11:42	noncom	"creds.json"
11:43	noncom	jtoy: or check the (count) of read lines if the file is accessible... just do it step-by-step...
11:43	noncom	checking the things as they go
11:43	noncom	and eventually you'll step on it
11:43	bbloom	tbaldridge: datalog over ssa blocks sounds like a cool idea :-)
11:44	tbaldridge	it is: https://github.com/halgari/mjolnir/blob/master/src/mjolnir/ssa_rules.clj :-)
11:44	tbaldridge	SSA level type inference in Datomic datalog ^^
11:45	bbloom	awesome.
11:45	jtoy	noncom: thx #<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'cheshire.core/parse-string>
11:46	noncom	jtoy: yep, we're all like descended on the planet where alien bugs are abundant, so we're like in the movie, the star descent or whatever it was called, great movie
11:47	jtoy	what?
11:47	clojurebot	what is exceptions
11:47	noncom	ah, nevermind :) just my imagination
11:47	jtoy	im still not sure why it works in lein repl and not in lein trampoline though
11:48	noncom	jtoy: can't help, never used trampoline.. but likely there is some difference in ns handling...
11:48	gtrak	Fretsejaz: adoption can work top-down or bottom-up :-) bottom-up is more likely to actually work, but takes persistence.
11:49	Fretsejaz	gtrak: True, but I am also not planning on staying too long =\
11:50	bbloom	tbaldridge: how has your experience been with the ssa/datalog combo? experimental at this point? or like one of those obviously mind blowing good ideas? or what?
11:50	Fretsejaz	been here 2.5 years, and will be here for maybe another year or two, but then I'm moving out of state, don't like the area
11:51	gtrak	yea.. stuff like that is on the order of years, but maybe you can convince one or two guys to look at it.
11:51	Fretsejaz	maybe, we'll see. I'll have to actually know what I'm doing with it first! I'm one of the younger engineers
11:52	tbaldridge	bbloom: mostly good. Datomic is mostly designed for queries that are run multiple times. Once the JIT kicks in the performance is good. Until then the performance was okay-ish. That would be my concern for using it in a real compiler. I'ts not uncommon to see a 100x slowdown until the jit warms up the query
11:52	bbloom	tbaldridge: is that just an artifact of datomic's datalog engine? in theory a different storage engine with a different indexing model may prefer a different query strategy for the same queries. no?
11:53	tbaldridge	So a compiler that watches a directory would do pretty well, but I'm not convinced a commandline based compiler wouldn't suffer performance issues.
11:53	tbaldridge	This is all in-memory DB
11:53	bbloom	ok
11:53	bbloom	tbaldridge: i've got this theory that a dramatic slowdown for a compiler is A-OK if you can reasonably do extremely incremental builds with confidence
11:53	tbaldridge	the first hit of a query requires the datalog engine to create a query plan. After that the query is hashed and cached, and the plan is reused later on
11:54	tbaldridge	bbloom: interesting
11:54	noncom	Fretsejaz: sometimes old engineers may take changes very steadely.. just be ready and know your goal
11:54	bbloom	tbaldridge: i mean when you think about it, generally only very small changes occur at a time
11:54	tbaldridge	bbloom: it would be cool to try a compiler where each module is cached in some sort of database, so only new modules need to be inferred
11:54	tbaldridge	bbloom: right
11:54	bbloom	tbaldridge: and if you have truly controlled inputs/environment, you can share partially compiled data too
11:54	noncom	but if they're no movers, then at least you know you have your benifit
11:55	mgaare	Fretsejaz: my advice is to forget about your current organization. In the year that you stay there, contribute to clojure open source projects or start one of your own. Then you can use that to get a job somewhere that already accepts clojure.
11:55	bbloom	tbaldridge: i started doing an attribute grammar system w/ memoization, dependency tracking, etc, but got only far enough to say "yeah, this will probably work, but i don't need it right now"
11:55	tbaldridge	bbloom: but yeah, the idea of using logic programming to write optimization/inference passes is mind blowing
11:55	Fretsejaz	nomcom, gtrack: Thank you for the advice. once I get more knowledgeable about the language I might start trying using more at work.
11:56	tbaldridge	bbloom: have you looked into Ometa2 at all?
11:56	bbloom	didn't realize there was a #2
11:56	bbloom	i'm not a PEG believer though :-)
11:56	Fretsejaz	mgaare: I'm embarrassed to say this, but I've actually never contributed to open source (still a new engineer, technically don't have my degree yet)
11:56	bbloom	tbaldridge: is there a major difference/discovery since v1?
11:56	tbaldridge	yeah, I understand that. But the idea of expressing a compiler as parser->output->parser->output is powerful. That's where some of my experimentation is these days
11:57	bbloom	tbaldridge: yeah, i'm a huuuge believer in that approach
11:57	tbaldridge	bbloom: no, it's mostly a condensing of the spec.
11:57	bbloom	explicit staging & multi-level translations == good idea
11:57	ToxicFrog	Fretsejaz: it's only a matter of time until you feel a patch coming on :)
11:57	mgaare	Fretsejaz: One thing that's true about every person who's ever contributed to open source, even the famous people who are leaders of prominent projects, is that at one point they were not open source contributors ;)
11:58	tbaldridge	bbloom: I mean, there's a reason Ocaml is known for writing good compilers, the pattern matching is top-notch
11:58	Fretsejaz	My plan is to move to Seattle to be honest. I'm currently in Florida and don't like it here, but in state tuition is hard to beat
11:58	bbloom	tbaldridge: yup. there is also MetaOCaml from Oleg et al
11:59	bbloom	which ensures type correctness of the code generator AND the generated code
11:59	futile	Using instaparse sounds like the perfect way to build up a partial AST that's perfect for doing syntax highlighting.
11:59	futile	Right?
11:59	tbaldridge	bbloom: nice
11:59	bbloom	tbaldridge: but i agree with Rich about pattern matching: I don't like the ordered choice aspect
11:59	bbloom	tbaldridge: i prefer what generalized CFG grammar systems do (like instaparse) where they return ambiguous results like a logic engine would
12:00	bbloom	tbaldridge: was just talking about this yesterday w/ kovas :-)
12:00	tbaldridge	bbloom: right, it's a trade-off, Ometa makes the choice of simplifying the semantics of the pattern matching by always trying patterns in-order.
12:00	bbloom	just like you do case analysis when the compiler says "hey, you didn't handle all of the enum values" you can do "ambiguity analysis" where the compiler says "when you compose these two sets of structures, you have ambiguity"
12:01	tbaldridge	interesting
12:01	bbloom	tbaldridge: my problem with the "simplifying" approach is that you still have to worry about things like left recursion & exploding parse tables and other things that you can't really hide
12:02	tbaldridge	bbloom: from what I was reading in the Ometa docs, I thought they solved that via in-order parsing. Did I miss something?
12:03	bbloom	tbaldridge: yeah, that's precisely what they do. they punt on the ambiguity problem by subsetting CFGs to be PEGs
12:03	bbloom	but the same thing applies in many situations
12:03	bbloom	like the multimethod shape intersection example: is it [:rectangle :circle] or is it [:circle :rectangle] ?
12:04	bbloom	in theory there are a few resolutions: lexical order, code order, logic variables, explicit preferences, random or otherwise non-deterministic choice, etc
12:05	tbaldridge	I see
12:07	bbloom	parsing and predicate dispatch have a lot in common
12:07	bbloom	hell, parsing has a lot in common with a lot of things! hence the wide applicability of ometa for the viewpoints work
12:07	tbaldridge	right
12:09	egghead	hmm
12:09	egghead	unbound buffers are kind of strange
12:09	tbaldridge	egghead: unbound buffers are evil
12:10	egghead	I'm just trying to wrap my head around the semantics of >! in unbound vs buffered
12:10	egghead	the way you can >!! into an buffered chan and it works like put!
12:10	egghead	but >!! into an unbound chan and it works like a sort of rendevouz
12:11	egghead	I thought >!/>!! <!/<!! always had a sort of 'receipt' guarantee
12:12	egghead	and put! and take! were the async/no guarantee versions
12:13	egghead	for instance I thought it was true that: (do (>!! ANY-CHAN :message) (assume-produced-message-was-consumed))
12:16	egghead	but it seems that's only true for channels with unbound buffers?
12:17	egghead	and in a buffered chan there is no difference there between using >!! and put! ?
12:18	bbloom	egghead: no, put! will schedule a callback
12:18	bbloom	it's an async send
12:18	bbloom	the queue of callbacks to run is effectively an unbounded queue
12:18	bbloom	unbounded buffer, i mean
12:18	bbloom	technically it's bounded, but it's a global bound, not per channel
12:19	egghead	so there is no 'ack' besides what the consomer produces over another channel?
12:19	egghead	s/consomer/consumer
12:20	xeqi	is there a way to profile clojurescript?
12:21	dnolen	xeqi: browser profilers are pretty good, I suggest compiling w/ whitespace optimizations w/ :static-fns true
12:21	dnolen	xeqi: this will probably get easier for testing advanced compiled code when we get accurate source maps
12:21	dnolen	s/testing/profiling
12:22	egghead	interesting, the 'rendevouz' only exists in unbound buffers
12:23	egghead	bbloom: given you don't use a callback to put! and just say (put! in-buffered-chan :message) what is the practical difference for the user between that and >!
12:24	xeqi	dnolen: ah yes, this works much better then when I forgot to turn off :advanced
12:24	xeqi	thanks
12:24	egghead	even though the internal mechnism might be different, for a user of core.async the semantics are the same, aren't they?
12:25	dnolen	egghead: not the same, put! is async, and >! will block
12:25	dnolen	egghead: even in CLJS
12:26	egghead	dnolen: (let [c (chan 10)] (go (>! c :message) (println "Message sent but not received)))
12:26	egghead	dnolen: (let [c (chan)] (go (>! c :message) (println "Message received by consumer")))
12:27	egghead	against the buffered it doesn't block, but against the unbound buffer it does block
12:27	dnolen	egghead: still not the same, if the buffer is filled it will block
12:27	egghead	or 'park' as it were
12:27	dnolen	with the standard buffer
12:28	egghead	is (chan) the same as (chan 0) ?
12:28	dnolen	egghead: the semantics of >! is rendevous regardless of the size of the buffer, put! will never block
12:29	egghead	but rendevouz with the buffer instead of a consumer
12:29	ddellacosta	I'm confused, you can use swap! with dynamic vars? I thought set! was the way to change their value, and swap!/reset! were for atoms?
12:29	egghead	right?
12:29	clojurebot	Equal Rights for Functional Objects is Baker's paper on equality and why it's impossible to define sensible equality in the presence of mutable data structures: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
12:29	egghead	with no buffer/unbound buffer you rendevouz with the process receiving the message and with a buffer you rendevouz with the buffer
12:30	dnolen	egghead: don't mix up what >! <! means w/ the utility of picking a buffering strategy
12:30	ddellacosta	ping Raynes
12:30	egghead	ddellacosta: I don't think you're supposed to change dynamic vars, just rebind them :p
12:31	egghead	~dynamically bind~ them
12:31	clojurebot	https://www.refheap.com/
12:31	ddellacosta	egghead: yeah, I mean, I'm read the source for lib-noir's session now and I'm really confused
12:31	ddellacosta	reading
12:31	egghead	dnolen: is it correct to think of the rendevouz as happening with the buffer?
12:32	dnolen	egghead: I wouldn't think of it that way
12:32	ddellacosta	oh, I see, it's binding it to an atom. wacky.
12:33	dnolen	egghead: but bbloom or tbaldridge may have better explanations
12:33	egghead	what is the rendevouz in the scenario where >! "appears" async because it gets picked up by the buffer
12:34	dnolen	egghead: what I'm trying to say is you often write >! chan, and you absolutely have no idea what buffer strategy chan is using
12:34	noncom	what is the current state of clojure.reducers library?
12:34	noncom	complete?
12:36	dnolen	noncom: could probably fleshed out more, but the essentials are there for it to be useful
12:38	egghead	dnolen: so I probably shouldn't be using writes as part of control flow since there is no guarantee a consumer received the message? :p
12:39	dnolen	egghead: I think your mental model just needs some adjusting, if you can move past >! something happened, what doesn't really matter
12:39	egghead	for instance, the way it is common to have a read-loop/recur, it seems like itd be very dangerous to invert that and have a write-loop/recur
12:40	dnolen	egghead: I don't know why you assume that
12:40	egghead	dnolen: the dangerous assumption would be that the written message was received by somebody somewhere
12:40	egghead	but with a read you know you received the message
12:41	egghead	>! seems more like 'make this available for use some time between now and never'
12:42	bbloom	egghead: you just need to think about it as a simplification of a distributed system
12:43	bbloom	egghead: in a truly distributed system, you need acks and what not to ensure your message got there
12:43	bbloom	there are time outs & retries and lots of stuff b/c your network is unreliable
12:43	bbloom	if you have an unbuffered channel, then the message was reliably received. if you have a buffered channel or put! or you (go (>! …)) (which is basically equiv to async put!) then your message might just get dropped on the floor if nobody is reading from that channel's buffer
12:44	bbloom	b/c you have a local system, not a distributed one, you can control what processes talk to what channels, and so you have control over the promises the runtime makes to you
12:44	bbloom	if you're writing library code that accepts random channels from whoever, then you need to treat that channel like a dumb pipe
12:44	egghead	but it seems safer to assume that >! does drop the message on the floor unless you created the channel in your local process
12:45	egghead	for all you know you could be writing to a channel with a full dropping buffer
12:45	bbloom	if it's an internal function and you give it the buffer yourself, then you know lots of things you can't know in general purpose library code
12:46	bbloom	that's part of the interface of your code
12:46	bbloom	it's no different than saying "i want a map" vs "i want a map with these keys in it"
12:46	egghead	right, so I guess it's kind of a la carte
12:47	bbloom	that's sort of the best feature of local CSP: you get this sliding scale of guarantees that you can't get w/ truly distributed models, like erlang's "cast"
12:47	egghead	I think my mistake is thinking of the rendevouz bit as ack
12:47	bbloom	egghead: yeah, it's not an ack, it's more like the "yield" keyword in ruby or python
12:48	bbloom	in fact, the state machines that core.async creates are a special (lexical, not dynamic extent) case of yield, which is a stylized use of full on continuations. so saying send/receive is more or less equiv to yield is actually provably true for more complete implementations
12:49	egghead	hmm
12:50	timvisher	cemerick ping
12:50	egghead	I think like tbaldridge has said over and over I shouldn't use unbound buffers
12:50	cemerick	timvisher: pong
12:50	egghead	since all you gain is uncertainty about the channels behavior
12:50	timvisher	j0. thanks for getting back to me about the use case.
12:50	bbloom	egghead: yes. do not use unbounded buffers :-)
12:50	timvisher	did you happen to see my messages earlier?
12:50	egghead	well, at least now I finally understand why
12:50	egghead	thanks bbloom :)
12:50	cemerick	timvisher: here, today? No.
12:50	timvisher	yesterday.
12:50	cemerick	timvisher: ah, no
12:51	timvisher	the basic use case is that i have a plain old html file
12:51	cemerick	feel free to point to a log
12:51	timvisher	so templating in a dynamic port doesn't really work for me
12:51	bbloom	egghead: generally, you should use UNBUFFERED unless you have a reasonable idea of how large to set the buffer
12:52	cemerick	timvisher: your app is public, right?
12:52	mdrogalis	It feels wrong to have more than one Leiningen project per Git repo. Does anyone have strong reasons for one way or the other?
12:52	tbaldridge	egghead: and if you need non-blocking put, then consider sliding/dropping buffers
12:52	timvisher	i understand that for most people they're going to be serving through ring or summat so they can put in the call to the script markup function (forget what it's called atm) but for me the regeneration of the index.html file would get tedious unless i put some tooling around it (which wouldn't be impossible)
12:52	technomancy	mdrogalis: lein's own repo has three projects in it =)
12:52	timvisher	yep, it's public
12:52	cemerick	timvisher: link?
12:53	mdrogalis	technomancy: Heh, I guess yeah. Something about it still feels funny.
12:53	mdrogalis	I think I just never liked that set up for projects, regardless of platform
12:53	timvisher	/msg NickServ SETPASS timvisher fsnphweitxed <password>
12:53	timvisher
12:53	timvisher	dernit!
12:53	timvisher	https://github.com/timvisher/bible-plan
12:53	timvisher	there we go! ;)
12:53	cemerick	thanks
12:53	maharj	oops :)
12:53	futile	oh hi tim, saw you on the M.L.
12:53	cemerick	classic
12:53	timvisher	:)
12:53	bbloom	tbaldridge: ignoring obvious cases like semaphore simulation. any advice on choosing buffer sizes? for my fipp branch, i found that approximately the internal max buffer size for the measure/print coroutines was about right
12:54	timvisher	hi futile, on what subject?
12:54	bbloom	tbaldridge: turns out that's == to max-width of your terminal :-)
12:54	egghead	bbloom: what is the difference between an unbuffered channel and a channel with an unbound buffer
12:54	futile	timvisher: are you the one who had a christian email signature?
12:54	egghead	(chan) vs (chan (buffer)) ?
12:54	timvisher	futile: in general that'd be me ^_^
12:54	timvisher	on most tech mailing lists for that matter lol
12:54	futile	timvisher: neat. glad to see another christian programmer around.
12:54	tbaldridge	bbloom: no, I don't I normally consider the use cases of the channel and do number of gos/threads as the buffer size
12:55	bbloom	egghead: the buffer function has an arity of 1. (buffer) is invalid
12:55	timvisher	futile: awesome! great to see one too ;)
12:55	egghead	welp
12:55	egghead	(chan 0) seems to behave just like (chan)
12:56	timvisher	cemerick: so far this is working out perfectly for me with a stable port: https://github.com/timvisher/bible-plan/blob/master/src/cljs/piggieback_browser.cljs
12:56	futile	timvisher: still waiting to see another catholic programmer, but i dont think that day will ever come
12:56	timvisher	lol
12:56	futile	:)
12:56	bbloom	egghead: that would be my expectation, however, i suspect that (chan 0) is an uninteresting edge case
12:56	timvisher	can't help you there but if I meet one I'll be sure to send them your way!
12:56	bbloom	(chan 0) is basically just slower (chan) :-P
12:56	cemerick	timvisher, futile: you guys are hardly alone; there's a fairly silent population
12:56	bbloom	"allocate me a buffer object that i won't use please"
12:57	futile	timvisher: thx :)
12:57	cemerick	timvisher: right, and that's using the classic browser-REPL
12:57	timvisher	cemerick: to be sure. it just tends to be hard to get them to come out of the woodwork
12:57	timvisher	cemerick: yep.
12:57	futile	cemerick: well if i dont know they are, they're as good as not to me, for all intents and purposes.
12:57	futile	:P
12:57	futile	(i mean socially speaking)
12:58	timvisher	so i had austin set up briefly but when i got to the point where i realized that i would have to update the port everytime i started the browser repl that's what turned me off
12:58	cemerick	timvisher: so, you were trying to have austin's HTTP server serve the static HTML, as the classic browser-REPL did?
12:58	timvisher	the helper function is actually quite nice and in a dynamic site it'd be a no-brainer, but i already had the brower-repl mostly working and austin introduced another layer of complexity with the need for templating
12:58	atyz	does anyone know why rings response created doesn't return a body?
12:59	tbaldridge	egghead: yeah, (chan 0) should never be used
12:59	timvisher	hmm. now i'm wishing i'd committed where i'd gotten to.
12:59	futile	I'm going back and forth between writing a compiler in C or Clojure. What do you guys think?
12:59	TimMc	futile: Do you know if the current pope has weighed in on emacs vs. vim? :-P
12:59	justin_smith	atyz: for what request and handler?
12:59	atyz	https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/util/response.clj
12:59	futile	TimMc: I think he's holding out for something more modern
13:00	bbloom	TimMc: i heard he uses butterflies
13:00	futile	TimMc: you know how we're all about modernity
13:00	futile	bbloom: oh man i like your joke better
13:00	atyz	justin_smith: the created function
13:00	TimMc	haha
13:00	futile	lets go with bbloom's joke, its pretty relevant
13:00	cemerick	timvisher: as background, you can set Austin's server's port number, and fix the session id that is used. See https://github.com/cemerick/austin/blob/master/src/clj/cemerick/austin.clj#L28 and :session-id option of https://github.com/cemerick/austin/blob/master/src/clj/cemerick/austin.clj#L356
13:00	TimMc	(Not to be confused with tpope, who is pretty clearly a vim user.)
13:01	tbaldridge	futile: depends on the language
13:01	futile	tbaldridge: let's say it's a lot like Clojure ;)
13:01	justin_smith	atyz: well, specs seem to say its response SHOULD include a list of resource characteristics and locations and MUST create the resource
13:02	justin_smith	so technically I guess it is OK? isn't this something you would probably augment with a handler middleware anyway?
13:02	timvisher	cemerick: i did notice that, but doesn't that negate one of the best things about austin which is it's ability to easily set up multiple browser repls for a project/many projects?
13:02	timvisher	or am i missing something about that?
13:02	justin_smith	atyz: ie. you supply the code that implements what "creation" actually means and agment the response to add a body as apropriate
13:03	tbaldridge	futile: IMO, compilers in C quickly end up very ugly. I'd either write something in C++ and LLVM if it was simple enough, or stick with clojure.
13:03	tbaldridge	futile: the GC, data structures and dynamic typing of Clojure are really nice to have
13:03	atyz	justin_smith: to me this seems just as correct: https://www.refheap.com/17399
13:03	cemerick	timvisher: You can readily create multiple repl-envs with different session-ids.
13:04	justin_smith	atyz: wait, it is putting "Location" in the headers, that is what the specs ask for right?
13:04	justin_smith	or at least it seems to provide what the specs ask for
13:05	atyz	justin_smith: yes. But the way it is currently implemented prevents you from having a body
13:05	cemerick	timvisher: But, you're right that, without templating (or _some_ way of dynamically obtaining the desired repl-env to be connected to), you're always going to be jumping back and forth between the REPL and whatever HTML file you're loading up.
13:05	futile	tbaldridge: Wow. After 5 years of abandoning C++, I have not once seriously considered using C++ for anything until just now.
13:05	justin_smith	can't you have a handler that modifies that map after ring creates it? I don't mess with that part of my app TOO often, but I recall being able to do things like that with ring
13:06	futile	tbaldridge: also are you suggesting I implement those in my language, is that why you bring up the GC, data structures and dynamic typing?
13:06	justin_smith	ie. check for a 201 status, fill in details, add a body tag
13:06	atyz	justin_smith: i could totally do that. I'm wondering if there was a reason ring prevented me from giving a 201 a body
13:06	atyz	As I didn't see anything in the http specs saying it shouldn't have a body
13:06	timvisher	ah. interesting. ok, i'll try to dig into it again. knee jerk it didn't seem like it was configurable in that way. i think i saw the comment in the Changelog section of the README that talks about :port not being supported anymore and just assumed that i couldn't get a stable port and session-id
13:06	tbaldridge	futile: no, I'm just saying that if I were going to write a LISP compiler, the first thing I would need to do is write a reader. Would you want to write that in C or Clojure
13:07	justin_smith	atyz: that part I don't know, and probably there is not a nice answer for
13:07	futile	tbaldridge: ooh I see. Yeah I don't know.
13:07	justin_smith	maybe it's a bug?
13:07	futile	tbaldridge: I like Clojure's data structures but I also like the simplicity of C not having a JVM.
13:07	tbaldridge	Clojure would be my first choice, but it all depends on what your target platform is. LLVM's C++ support is amazing It's C++, but it's super well designed c++
13:07	atyz	I don't know, I had to write some middleware for it.So I'm probably going to patch it and see what he says
13:07	atyz	At worst he will give me the reason why it shouldn't return a body
13:08	atyz	I was just asking to make sure I wasn't missing something
13:08	justin_smith	we could both be missing something :) sorry I couldn't help more
13:10	timvisher	you know that time when you were eating a sammich and you realized that you forgot the hummus. worthless.
13:13	cemerick	timvisher: the problem with :port was that it was on the repl-env fn, when there needs to be a 1:N relationship between HTTP server : REPL environments
13:14	cemerick	timvisher: If you do make it work, I'd love to have a mini-writeup in the Austin README of the setup needed for those working with static HTML pages, etc. :-)
13:14	cemerick	timvisher: and, if you don't make it work, let me know, and we'll figure it out
13:14	timvisher	sure thing. :)
13:14	timvisher	and really, thank you so much for your work on all this. piggieback is lightyears ahead of where i started with this stuff
13:15	timvisher	and austin seems like it would be another big step forward
13:15	timvisher	so i'm very excited :)
13:15	noncom	i have just got some result on speed tests that surprised me
13:16	noncom	if i call an fn from a different ns, passing to it something from a different ns, it takes +0.1ms to complete!
13:17	noncom	is this an expected penalty for name resolution?
13:17	tbaldridge	noncom: are you sure the JIT is warmed up?
13:17	noncom	well, i run like 20 tests, until indications settle on something
13:17	llasram	noncom: I heavily recommend using https://github.com/hugoduncan/criterium especially for timing differences that small
13:17	tbaldridge	can you give us a copy/paste of the code in question?
13:17	technomancy	noncom: unless you use resolve, resolution happens at compile time
13:18	technomancy	or eval or something batty
13:18	kmicu	batty!
13:18	noncom	probably that's because i'm doing tests from the repl then?
13:19	tbaldridge	also, lein screws with the JIT quite a bit....
13:19	llasram	noncom: Without the code and more context, it's pretty difficult for anyone to say :-)
13:19	noncom	just a sec, i'm preparing
13:20	tbaldridge	noncom: if you add something like this to your project.clj file, it'll stop lien from disabling a ton of optimizations: :jvm-opts ^:replace []
13:20	tbaldridge	at the cost of extra compilation time
13:22	arrdem	how would you guys structure a message handler system that has to deal with restarting messages?
13:24	arrdem	I'm trying to come up with a structure which would let handlers "catch" the current message (stop propigation of the current one and send a new messsage) without having a global state of registered handlers.
13:25	noncom	here: https://www.refheap.com/17401
13:25	noncom	please notice the commentaries below the actual code
13:28	noncom	there is math stuff on calculating splines, I think you can disregard the equations since they don't seem to play the role..
13:28	stuartsierra	noncom: Timing single function calls on the JVM is almost meaningless.
13:30	noncom	stuartsierra: well, it is very real that the increase of +0.10ms in this case accumulates into a huge lag with 10000 splines. and the repeatability of the measurement assures it is not meaningless
13:30	noncom	maybe fighting it is meaningless though.... thus i'm asking if i missed something
13:31	tbaldridge	you're going to notice a better perf boost by worrying about the following
13:31	tbaldridge	a) turn catmull-rom into a protocol/deftype
13:31	tbaldridge	b) typehint point so that the values are unboxed
13:32	tbaldridge	c) don't use reduce, as it performs at least one allocation per step
13:32	tbaldridge	those three should make a pretty big difference
13:33	stuartsierra	And run a profiler.
13:33	noncom	wow, interesting. so i will try this. however, could you explain more on "typehint point" - where exactly do i place typehints?
13:34	noncom	stuartsierra: please suggest a good $$$-free one for clojure.. on Java I used to use VisualVM, but it is not so good for Clojure
13:35	tbaldridge	noncom: looking at it now, it doesn't matter for most of the args, so perhaps don't worry about that. Do the other two things, then profile and look out for boxing
13:36	stuartsierra	noncom: VisualVM works fine.
13:36	stuartsierra	You get used to interpreting the stacks.
13:36	sritchie	anyone here using core.typed?
13:37	sritchie	I was just curious about support for type parameters, like a List[T]
13:37	noncom	thank you, i have recorded your instructions, i have to go now, gonna try out some time later today and see what comes with it!
13:41	jweiss	if I want to write :^blue (my-macro "arg1") and have it return a value with the metadata {:blue true} can i capture that? i am guessing in the &form param?
13:43	jweiss	nevermind, easy enoough to try at the repl. works
13:44	jweiss	hacky perhaps, but easier to write than (with-meta (my-macro "arg1" {:blue true}))
13:44	jweiss	oops (with-meta (my-macro "arg1") {:blue true})
13:45	futile	jweiss: not that much easier, and perhaps not clearer.
13:47	jweiss	futile: yeah, but in my case i feel the ease wins because of the number of times we'll have to write this construct
13:47	dnolen	sritchie: might want to ask on the core.typed lisp too, but I'm pretty sure you can do that.
13:47	futile	jweiss: sounds like maybe a list is in order
13:47	futile	or vector
13:47	sritchie	dnolen: I just tracked down the (Seqable a) example
13:47	sritchie	which is exactly what I want
13:47	dnolen	s/lisp/mailing list
13:47	sritchie	dnolen: lisp on the brain
13:49	jweiss	futile: yeah, actually that probably is better. could probably just make a fn take a 2nd arg (a keyword) and add {kw true} as meta
13:49	jweiss	since in my use case there will be at most one flag in the meta
13:49	fowlslegs	I'm having problems passing a function as a string to the reader macro.
13:49	fowlslegs	,(re-seq #"<" "(fn [x y] (< (count x) (count y))")
13:49	clojurebot	("<")
13:50	fowlslegs	,(#(re-seq #"<" "%") (fn [x y] (< (count x) (count y))))
13:50	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox$eval57$fn>
13:50	fowlslegs	Would anyone be so kind as to show me what I'm doing wrong?
13:50	jweiss	fowlslegs: there's just a regex reader macro there
13:50	jweiss	not sure what you are trying to do
13:51	TimMc	What you're trying to do is probably impossible, at least in the proximate step. What is your larger goal?
13:52	fowlslegs	Trying to make a reader macro form that takes an anonymous fxn as it's argument and evaluates whether it contains a symbol or not.
13:52	TimMc	s/proximate step/proximal sense/
13:52	jweiss	you mean an anonymous function form?
13:53	fowlslegs	jweiss: I suppose.
13:53	fowlslegs	TimMc: It's for a 4clojure.com problem, but I want to avoid direct help or other suggestions of how to solve it.
13:54	jweiss	,(read-string "#(foo %)")
13:54	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__91#] (foo p1__91#))
13:54	jweiss	fowlslegs: so you can see that by the time that string comes back from the reader it's (fn* ...)
13:55	jweiss	then given that assumption you can look for symbols after the first item
13:55	jweiss	or i suppose after the 2nd item
13:56	fowlslegs	,(read-string '#(+ % %2))
13:56	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to java.lang.String>
13:56	fowlslegs	,(read-string "'#(+ % %2)")
13:56	clojurebot	(quote (fn* [p1__150# p2__151#] (+ p1__150# p2__151#)))
13:56	jweiss	fowlslegs: you don't need to quote since you're only reading, not eval'ing
13:57	jweiss	quote just protects data from eval, not read
13:59	fowlslegs	So when I have a form like (#(read-string %) (fn [x y] (+ x y))) will the fn form always be evaluated no matter what I put before or after the % symbol?
14:04	technomancy	fowlslegs: yeah
14:04	jweiss	fowlslegs: yes. read-string takes a string
14:05	jweiss	but even if you pass in a form, if it's going to a function it gets evaluated before the fucntion is called. so it'll be a function object, not the list form
14:05	jweiss	the only way to get at the original form is if you're passing it to a macro.
14:06	jweiss	fowlslegs: if you're trying to just find out if a list contains a symbol, that will not involve any macros at all
14:06	jweiss	reader or otherwise.
14:07	TimMc	fowlslegs: Which 4clojure problem is this, out of curiosity?
14:07	TimMc	I won't spoil it.
14:08	fowlslegs	166
14:09	fowlslegs	jweiss: How can I do it instead?
14:09	TimMc	Well, I think it's safe to say you shouldn't be mucking about with the reader or eval for this one.
14:10	jweiss	,(some symbol? (flatten [1 2 3 '(foo "hello" (bar 1))]))
14:10	clojurebot	true
14:10	jweiss	that's if you don't care where the symbol is.
14:17	fowlslegs	Arg I really don't like this problem.
14:21	bbloom	fowlslegs: you definitely don't need read-string or need to analyze symbols to do that problem maybe you should try another approach
14:21	TimMc	fowlslegs: It's a math problem, not a data structures problem.
14:22	timvisher	cemerick: looks like i'm no go again. 0.1.0's start-server is wildly different than 0.1.1-SNAPSHOT's and doesn't seem to support any sort of configuration.
14:22	timvisher	Of course i could just go ahead and install 0.1.1-SNAPSHOT locally
14:22	timvisher	meh, i'll give that a shot
14:25	cemerick	timvisher: it's available in clojars
14:25	cemerick	sorry, should have pointed out that it was on master only :-/
14:28	fowlslegs	Got it.
14:28	Qerub	(keyword 'foo) => :foo, but (symbol :foo) => ClassCastException. Anyone else thinks it would be nice if the second one also worked?
14:29	fowlslegs	I misread the last test.
14:29	justin_smith	Qerub: ,(-> :foo name symbol)
14:30	fowlslegs	Basically thought that I would have to see whether the fxn was using the < or greater than operand because the logic of the last example was reversed, but then I realized it was a "logical double-negative"... whatever that means.
14:31	TimMc	Yep. :-)
14:31	fowlslegs	Nothing really, but I lack the vocabularly to accurate describe the source of my misunderstanding.
14:31	fowlslegs	accurately*
14:33	timvisher	cemerick: lol. no problem. i should've checked clojars as well anyway. :)
14:33	timvisher	so where exactly is the root of the server it's starting up?
14:34	timvisher	cemerick: here's what i'm going with so far https://github.com/timvisher/bible-plan/blob/austin/src/clj/austin.clj
14:35	timvisher	trying to not muck around with system variables and such
14:35	timvisher	that appears to be working ok except that i can't visit the index.html file in a browser anymore.
14:35	timvisher	it does give me a nice stable repl url though
14:36	cemerick	timvisher: hey, not bad!
14:36	cemerick	timvisher: it or something like it could be a nice addition to cemerick.austin.repls
14:37	cemerick	timvisher: what happens when you open the file directly? The browser-REPL won't work, but the page should still load...?
14:37	timvisher	yep
14:37	timvisher	complete with water slide
14:37	timvisher	:)
14:37	cemerick	water slide?
14:38	timvisher	sorry. emperor's new groove quote
14:38	timvisher	:)
14:38	timvisher	great movie by the way lol
14:38	timvisher	but then again i have kids
14:38	cemerick	missed that one :-)
14:39	bbloom	cemerick: it is a great movie. even if you don't have kids :-P
14:40	timvisher	definitely spades best role :)
14:40	tomjack	hmm https://github.com/relevance/edn-ruby#metadata
14:41	timvisher	so how can i get the index.html page to be served up? i was assuming that's what the :static-dir key was supposed to do
14:41	bbloom	personally, i'm partial to that guy who plays Putty on Seinfeld
14:41	tomjack	metadata is not in the edn spec
14:42	Raynes	callen: I thought they merged your pull request?
14:42	Raynes	https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/pull/21733#issuecomment-22340993
14:43	futile	Got a Clojure challenge for anyone interested:
14:43	futile	Write idiomatic code that does two things. Given an input string, give a list of all lines ending in \n, with the \n included. If the last line does not end with \n, give that separately. Perform some user-defined action on each line from the first step, omitting any final line not ending with \n.
14:44	shaungilchrist	tomjack: yeah I am curious about metadata being added to the spec as well
14:44	Raynes	futile: 'give that separately'
14:44	tomjack	guess it's tricky because of all the platforms which must be supported
14:44	Raynes	Don't know what that means in this context.
14:45	callen	Raynes: yeah I did too.
14:45	tomjack	but collections as values is already pretty tricky :)
14:45	shaungilchrist	I imagine it could be treated like comments or discard for platforms that do not care
14:45	Raynes	callen: I'm officially sick of homebrew.
14:45	Raynes	:\
14:45	callen	Raynes: yeah me too.
14:46	technomancy	switch to nix you guys
14:46	futile	Raynes: not as part of the list
14:46	futile	technomancy: but i like being able to plug into projectors and have it work
14:46	futile	oh wait, no i dont
14:46	callen	Raynes: they've broken my spirit.
14:46	timvisher	technomancy: cause apt is better? :)
14:46	Raynes	futile: Still not telling me what you want.
14:47	futile	technomancy: but i like being able to watch Department of Eagles on Youtube
14:47	technomancy	futile: not nixos silly
14:47	Raynes	Do you want [[stuff] last-line]?
14:47	futile	Raynes: https://gist.github.com/sdegutis/6187110
14:47	futile	Here's two simple test cases for the challenge: https://gist.github.com/sdegutis/6187110
14:47	technomancy	the whole "X can't hotplug dispalys" stereotype is like five years out of date anyway
14:48	Raynes	This isn't much of a challenge
14:48	technomancy	but nix is supposedly cross-platform
14:48	futile	Raynes: it's not supposed to be super hard
14:48	futile	Raynes: it's supposed to let you show off the language in its most idiomaticness
14:48	futile	or however that would be Enlished up
14:48	futile	Englished
14:48	Raynes	Performing side effects. Heh.
14:48	futile	Raynes: the only side effect here is "print foo"
14:48	futile	etc
14:49	futile	technomancy: what's nix
14:49	futile	the package manager?
14:49	technomancy	yeah
14:49	futile	a really nerdy smart colleague of mine liked it a lot a year ago
14:49	futile	.... i havent heard from him since
14:50	technomancy	he's probably transcended human form
14:50	technomancy	turned into a being of pure thought
14:50	futile	technomancy: seriously though you'll love this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mt6xzhha58
14:50	technomancy	too busy contemplating the mysteries of the universe to communicate with lowly flesh-forms
14:51	Raynes	callen: You should play Left 4 Dead 2 with me sometime.
14:51	futile	technomancy: well all we have to do to get him back is revert to the previous sha. its immutable after all right?
14:51	justin_smith	xrandr+dwm is more predictable from anything my osx mountain-lion has ever done with external displays
14:51	justin_smith	s/from/than
14:51	technomancy	futile: makes sense to me
14:52	futile	OH NO NOW WE'RE AT THE QUESTION OF IDENTITY
14:52	justin_smith	xrandr --output DP-2 --auto --left-of LVDS-0 # gives me an external display on the third display port
14:52	futile	no takers?
14:53	noonian	Raynes: I think version 1.4.4 of me.raynes.fs might be missing a dependency. 1.4.0 works for me, but with 1.4.4 I get this: "ClassNotFoundException java.nio.file.Files java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run (URLClassLoader.java:202)"
14:53	callen	Raynes: maybe.
14:54	callen	Raynes: I've been playing Last of Us multiplayer lately.
14:54	Raynes	noonian: Requires Java 7.
14:54	noonian	Raynes: ahhhh
14:54	Raynes	noonian: We fucked up and did a breaking change release without incrementing the major version. Sorry. :(
14:54	noonian	I've heard installing Java 7 on osx is more trouble than its worth :(
14:54	Raynes	Really?
14:54	Raynes	I have it by default...
14:54	nickmbailey	wasn't bad at all
14:55	nickmbailey	have to download it from oracle but it was easy after that
14:55	Raynes	noonian: http://www.java.com/en/download/index.jsp
14:56	mattmoss	Installing Java 7 on OSX is trivial. Getting things to run with Java 7 on OSX is a pain.
14:56	noonian	lol
14:56	Raynes	mattmoss: Like what?
14:56	Raynes	:\
14:56	noonian	yeah thanks, I can't just go ahead an do it because I'd break the code for my coworkers who don't have Java 7
14:56	Raynes	noonian: 1.4.5
14:57	Raynes	noonian: IIRC, we released that to selectively do the imports/function defines that require java 7 only if java 7 is installed.
14:57	mattmoss	Raynes: Well, at least for me, most things dealing with graphics, esp. OpenGL, is borked, because (IIRC) how you access gfx context was changed in a breaking manner.
14:57	noonian	Raynes: nice! that works for me, thanks
14:57	callen	Raynes: I'm smashing him in the dick.
14:58	callen	I'm just pissed now.
14:58	Raynes	noonian: But keep in mind that when I release 2.0.0 (which will be the next version), we'll be deprecating Java 6 support because there is too much good stuff in nio.
14:58	callen	This is probably the last time I will attempt a contribution to homebrew.
14:58	mattmoss	Eg. Minecraft would not run for longest time until lwglw (or whatever the f it's called) had to be fixed.
14:58	Raynes	callen: Please be careful.
14:58	Raynes	callen: One wrong thing could make this go right off the rails.
14:58	Raynes	Trust me, I'm angry too.
14:58	callen	Raynes: it was subtle and had a good tone.
14:58	mattmoss	Not that minecraft is the pinnacle of Java development...
14:58	callen	Raynes: look for yourself.
14:59	technomancy	Raynes: is this about the clojurescript thing?
14:59	callen	technomancy: no
14:59	callen	technomancy: this is about nuking the broken Clojure formula on homebrew.
14:59	callen	technomancy: I'd REALLY like it if you spoke up for what we're doing on the thread.
14:59	callen	technomancy: https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/pull/21733#issuecomment-22340993
14:59	noonian	Raynes: thanks for the warning, I'll start investing in preparing to move everyone to 7
14:59	callen	I put in a blacklist to tell the user to use Leiningen instead.
15:00	Raynes	noonian: Cool. I believe mattmoss about the things he mentioned, but it is generally really painless. I've never had a single stray problem with java 7 (haven't done gfx stuff).
15:01	technomancy	callen: I'll poke my head in
15:01	timvisher	cemerick: sorry. got no more time for this atm. when i load up the index.html file from a localhost server austin claims that a session with that id doesn't exist. i'll try to dig into it more later. still, looks promising, if a bit hacky. thanks for your help!
15:01	noonian	yeah, I haven't had problems trying myself, but googling it a month ago turned up some stuff that convinced me to wait
15:01	timvisher	https://github.com/timvisher/bible-plan/commits/austin
15:01	Raynes	technomancy: Very appreciated it. Not asking you to get involved with the shitstorm, just a little "I support this because x" comment might be helpful to our cause.
15:01	TimMc	callen: I notice http://clojure.org/getting_started wasn't linked.
15:02	TimMc	Authoritative, and it says "The vast majority of Clojure developers use Leiningen to create and manage Clojure projects."
15:02	Raynes	TimMc: Someone did link it!
15:03	Raynes	But every time it's about to get merged some random Ruby programmer hops in to say "UHHH I DUNNO GAIS MAY B WE SHOULDN'T"
15:03	Raynes	I don't mean to be bitter about it, but I'm frustrated.
15:03	kmicu	It's a b... It's a b... It's a small, off-duty Czechoslovakian traffic warden!!
15:03	technomancy	might have been better not to mention the clojurescript one at all
15:04	TimMc	Raynes: I do not see the link.
15:04	callen	technomancy: yep
15:04	callen	Raynes: I'm hunting him down in the machomebrew channel.
15:04	callen	TimMc: I just added it anyway.
15:04	callen	to reiterate the matter.
15:04	Raynes	TimMc: https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/pull/21733#issuecomment-22307159
15:04	TimMc	good good
15:05	callen	is this what people trying to add/remove packages to Debian go through?
15:05	tomjack	t
15:05	technomancy	callen: Debian has actual release management
15:05	TimMc	Raynes: Not to be obtuse, but that's not a link and I don't know what the "get clojure" page is.
15:06	callen	Raynes: he wants a week. it's 1147 on the 8th of August. I'm going to be right back in this thread in a week
15:06	Raynes	TimMc: He explicitly mentioned that it's from the official Clojure homepage.
15:06	callen	he asked for a cooling off period, I'm giving it to him.
15:06	Raynes	callen: I'm just baffled at what he thinks is going to happen in a week.
15:06	callen	Raynes: it's not like he's going to research anything.
15:07	callen	If he were apt to research anything, we wouldn't have needed to say so much.
15:07	callen	that's also why I'm hunting him down in the homebrew IRC channel.
15:07	Raynes	callen: I feel like despite our best efforts, he thinks that a storm of angry Clojure programmers are going to rush in in defense of this 6 line shell script.
15:07	callen	technomancy: I don't need a reminder, hate sharpens the memory.
15:08	callen	nobody that actually writes any Clojure code uses that formula.
15:08	justin_smith	which would explain who knowledgable callen generally is
15:08	Raynes	His latest comment "Unrelated to this PR: perhaps the homepage should not suggest the "Minimal Install"."
15:08	Raynes	Why are Ruby programmers trying to shit on our lawn? :(
15:08	technomancy	Raynes: "YA THINK"
15:09	callen	justin_smith: help me out, I didn't grok that. :(
15:09	technomancy	justin_smith: haha
15:09	justin_smith	sorry, "callen: I don't need a reminder, hate sharpens the memory." "which would explain how knowledgable callen generally is"
15:09	justin_smith	typo
15:10	justin_smith	remember ages ago when I started cussing about homebrew? I hated homebrew before it was cool
15:10	callen	justin_smith: I saw the sequencing of statements, I don't know if it's intended to be a stateful about my being hateful, ignorant, or both.
15:11	callen	I'm not even reacting to it with vitriol, I'm just confused and curious.
15:11	justin_smith	hateful and wise
15:11	callen	I'm down with being a Zen bastard.
15:11	Raynes	callen: It looks like he is saying you hate things and hate sharpens the memories and thus you're knowledgeable and smart.
15:11	justin_smith	I figured that was what you were going for
15:11	callen	Raynes: <3
15:11	callen	justin_smith: if you think being in IRC with me is bad, imagine how the third party providers to my company have it.
15:12	callen	I'm putting them through the wringer on OAuth2 right now.
15:12	Raynes	callen: We should perhaps hunt down links to IRC logs where users installed this piece of junk and we had to tell them to use leiningen instead
15:12	callen	Raynes: what's the most complete log of this channel?
15:12	Raynes	Probably mine, but they're not easily searchable.
15:12	Raynes	We should use n0ise I expect.
15:13	callen	with search
15:13	callen	okay
15:13	callen	Raynes: don't link them to the logs.
15:13	callen	Raynes: we can't use the logs.
15:13	callen	Not really.
15:13	justin_smith	you're just embarrassed by what you said
15:14	callen	justin_smith: well I was ranting about homebrew's maintainers.
15:14	callen	justin_smith: I'm being politically savvy, not embarrassed.
15:14	callen	everything I said about homebrew was true.
15:15	Raynes	callen: http://www.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pub-1237864095616304%3Ae7qm3gycp2b&ie=UTF-8&q=%22install+leiningen%22&sa=Go&siteurl=clojure-log.n01se.net%2F&ref=&ss=4728j746238j38#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=%22install%20clojure%22 fwiw
15:15	noonian	is homebrew the piece of junk you guys are referring to? or some other piece of software?
15:15	Raynes	noonian: The Clojure formula specifically is a piece of junk.
15:15	noonian	ah
15:15	callen	Raynes: still not a good idea. there could misuse other conversations on there.
15:15	callen	Raynes: I really don't think it's a good idea to bring in more data at this stage.
15:16	callen	they'll just misread the conversations.
15:16	callen	I'd let it lie for a week.
15:16	callen	We've already won, now we just wait.
15:16	mgaare	what is the use case of homebrew instead of just using lein?
15:16	Raynes	callen: FWIW, probably shouldn't say things in a publicly logged channel that you're not willing to let people see.
15:16	callen	and potentially threaten Mike McQuaid's family.
15:16	callen	mgaare: retardation.
15:16	Raynes	mgaare: There isn't one.
15:16	callen	Raynes: I know.
15:16	Raynes	Just stubbornness at this point.
15:16	callen	I stand by what I said, it's just inconvenient for the purposes of that PR
15:16	mgaare	I'm on mac and every time I think to reach for homebrew I get a little shudder of dread
15:17	callen	mgaare: good.
15:17	callen	I use a mac and homebrew, but I'm not apt to be happy about either of those things.
15:17	cemerick	Raynes: man, what's with the packaging crazy lately?
15:17	cemerick	s/lately/
15:17	technomancy	debian is getting lein2 soon you guys =)
15:17	ystael	callen: not 'apt' to be happy /groan
15:18	cemerick	technomancy: right about the time v3 goes into beta or something? ;-(
15:18	cemerick	er, ;-)
15:18	callen	ystael: oh good, you noticed. :)
15:18	technomancy	cemerick: 3.0 is kind of just an idea at this point
15:18	noonian	well, when I started with clojure my first instinct was to see if homebrew had it and install from there
15:19	callen	noonian: we know a lot of people do it. that's why it's important to unfuck the situation.
15:19	cemerick	technomancy: I know, just snarking at the latency
15:19	technomancy	nix has the latest though! =)
15:19	justin_smith	your choices in package management: do something totally fucked up immediately, do the best thing but take for fucking ever to get around with it
15:19	justin_smith	*around to it
15:19	futile	so, no takers?
15:20	technomancy	justin_smith: the great thing is they're not mutually exclusive =)
15:20	futile	re: https://gist.github.com/sdegutis/6187110
15:20	justin_smith	oh yeah, you can get both
15:20	noonian	imo the clojure formula should just install leiningen and make a clojure-no-lein formula or something if you really just want the jar stuck somewhere or however it does it
15:21	technomancy	noonian: no one has ever wanted the latter =)
15:21	Raynes	noonian: The non-lein formula is literally 'unzip and here's a 6 line shell script have fun doing nothing'
15:21	Raynes	I can write that with my feet on a broken keyboard in 30 seconds.
15:21	Raynes	Don't need a confusing formula to do it for me.
15:21	mgaare	can you get the brew recipe for clojure to echo something like, "Listen, there's a clojure tool called leiningen that's quite good and, frankly, easier to deal with if you just install it yourself. Are you sure you want to proceed with this?"
15:21	technomancy	mgaare: that's basically what's proposed
15:22	timvisher	Raynes: you are pretty good with your feet though.
15:22	mgaare	technomancy: righto then :D
15:23	noonian	haha
15:24	technomancy	muhoo: fixed your trampoline bug =)
15:26	noncom\|2	(reduce) generates an additional collection during its work. this overhead is undesirable for me in the current task. how can i substitute reduce?
15:27	noncom\|2	with core.reducers/reduce maybe? or some other technique?
15:27	justin_smith	futile: https://www.refheap.com/17407
15:28	futile	neat solution
15:28	Raynes	war
15:28	justin_smith	not concise, but I hope clear
15:28	futile	looks just like my first one. great minds think alike etc :P
15:28	Raynes	wat
15:28	Raynes	justin_smith: This doesn't even work.
15:28	Raynes	Right?
15:28	justin_smith	?
15:28	justin_smith	why not?
15:29	Raynes	justin_smith: Splitting on \n removes the delimiters.
15:29	futile	justin_smith: also thats not a user-given action, thats hard-coded ;)
15:29	justin_smith	yes
15:29	futile	Raynes: the "ln" in "println" adds them back ;)
15:29	justin_smith	I check the end of the string for newline
15:29	justin_smith	before splitting
15:29	justin_smith	so it works
15:29	Raynes	I see.
15:30	Raynes	justin_smith: (.endsWith str "\n")
15:30	justin_smith	yes, much nicer
15:30	justin_smith	splitting loses information about ending on a delimiter, I have often had to deal with that
15:31	justin_smith	I should write a "strict-split" that puts a nil at beginning and or end if starting / ending with a delimiter
15:31	justin_smith	now that I think of it
15:31	cemerick	technomancy: nix?
15:32	kmicu	$google nixOS
15:32	lazybot	[About NixOS] http://nixos.org/nixos/
15:32	justin_smith	nil at beginning or end if delimiters are there makes split / join be proper complementary functions
15:33	hiredman	noncom\|2: what makes you say it generates an additional collection?
15:35	Raynes	cemerick: You're a gentleman and a scholar.
15:35	cemerick	Raynes: you should tell people, no one believes me
15:35	cemerick	kmicu: thanks, cute
15:35	Raynes	kmicu: cemerick just called you cute
15:38	cemerick	Raynes: The fellow looking to package cljs is _really_ motivated!
15:38	Raynes	cemerick: Forgot the damned dot.
15:38	dnolen	cemerick: motivated towards what I'm unable to comprehend
15:39	cemerick	dnolen: 'single-shot compilation' appears to be the key phrase
15:39	Raynes	cemerick: Which surprised me, since he hasn't once said "I need it".
15:39	noncom\|2	hiderman: i have heard it here before and i may pay to the bottleneck critical section
15:40	cemerick	Raynes: my (rare) previous exposure to processes packaging Java bits is that packagers are rarely users of the things they package.
15:40	hiredman	noncom\|2: so you ahve no evidence of it?
15:41	noncom\|2	hiderman: true...
15:43	hiredman	noncom\|2: if you are not working based on evidence, your "critical section" may or may not be a real bottleneck.
15:43	hiredman	noncom\|2: get a profiler, get empirical
15:43	noncom\|2	hiredman: yes, this is very sober
15:44	noonian	noncom\|2: pity :P
15:44	noncom\|2	noonian: beauty :)
15:51	Raynes	technomancy, TimMc, nDuff: http://identity.mozilla.com/post/57712756801/persona-makes-signing-in-easy-for-gmail-users
15:52	Raynes	I guess technomancy doesn't care since he boycotted gmail.
15:52	Raynes	But sane people will be happy about this.
15:54	futile	Well since everyone seems done with the challenges, here was my solution: https://www.refheap.com/16959
15:54	futile	That version admittedly doesn't preserve the newline at the end, but it would be easier to add between lines 5 and 6.
15:55	technomancy	Raynes: at this point the best way to get me to switch would be to steal my laptop and (defalias 'scpaste 'refheap-buffer) without my knowledge
15:55	Raynes	Hahaha
15:55	technomancy	actually my dotfiles are OSS; go submit a pull request instead =)
15:59	TimMc	Raynes: I boycotted gmail some years ago too.
15:59	Raynes	This channel is really full of hipsters.
16:00	TimMc	and I would encourage you to do the same, for that matter. :-P
16:00	technomancy	flee the coming googpocalypse
16:00	maharj	I just found out there's a way to preserve delimiters on str/split with (?= and (?<= Really neat I should say.
16:00	hyPiRion	Raynes: Go make that Elixir mail server I told you to already.
16:00	Raynes	Sure, let me just give up email addresses I've been using for years, the app I use on my phone to read my email, and...
16:01	technomancy	just wait till you won't be able to sign into gmail without using G+
16:01	technomancy	it won't be long
16:01	glosoli	What does one use for debugging Clojure in Emacs ?
16:01	technomancy	Raynes: don't you have raynes.me?
16:01	llasram	glosoli: println, personally
16:01	Raynes	technomancy: Not my only email address.
16:01	TimMc	Raynes: Good job, bro.
16:01	glosoli	llasram really??
16:01	lazybot	glosoli: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
16:02	technomancy	Raynes: I've been forwarding technomancy@gmail.com to hagelb.org for years
16:02	hyPiRion	technomancy: whaa, you actually have a gmail.com address? maniac
16:02	Raynes	You're all bad people.
16:02	TimMc	Raynes: brainonfire.net used to be backed by gmail, then by lavabit, and now by cotse -- and people who email me don't know the difference.
16:02	technomancy	hyPiRion: from my college days
16:02	glosoli	llasram: I can't git if you are just joking or not :?
16:03	llasram	glosoli: Well, println plus thinking all the way through the problem
16:03	technomancy	hyPiRion: you know, before it was obvious Google was going to turn evil
16:03	glosoli	llasram hmm seems kinda uncomfortable but thanks
16:03	llasram	glosoli: Give it a try some time :-) Otherwise, I'd look at ritz
16:04	llasram	glosoli: https://github.com/pallet/ritz
16:04	glosoli	thanks
16:04	hyPiRion	technomancy: I kind of feel like every company will turn evil at some point. I'm a bit pessimistic.
16:04	TimMc	Or they go under, or change their domain name...
16:05	TimMc	Basically, if you're actually concerned about maintaining an online identity, it's pretty important to use services that allow you to attach your own domain name.
16:05	ddellacosta	is there a way to stub a pojo's method using with-redefs?
16:06	llasram	ddellacosta: Nope -- `with-redefs` works on Vars
16:07	llasram	ddellacosta: You can `proxy` to create an (anonymous) sub-class, if that could work
16:08	TimMc	The number of times I've written (defn now [] (System/currentTimeMillis)) just so I can write tests...
16:08	ddellacosta	llasram: I tried something like that, but it turns out I'm trying to proxy an Interface, which doesn't (seem to) work. Note: total newb with this kind of Java-interop in Clojure, as of yesterday
16:09	ddellacosta	although I'm finding proxy to be a lovely thing in and of itself, very handy
16:09	llasram	ddellacosta: Oh, you need an implementation of an interface, then that's what `reify` is for
16:09	llasram	s,you need,if you need,
16:10	ddellacosta	llasram: gotcha, thank you!
16:12	ddellacosta	huh, some people on the interwebs are saying that reify is generally preferable to proxy, across the board, if possible to use. Is this the current conventional wisdom?
16:14	stuartsierra	ddellacosta: yes, when implementing interfaces only, `reify` is faster and more interoperable than `proxy`.
16:14	ddellacosta	stuartsierra: thank you!
16:16	callen	ddellacosta: proxy is sometimes necessary if you're doing black magick though.
16:16	tcrayford	like interfacing with a scala library that doesn't use an interface where it should
16:16	tcrayford	:(
16:16	callen	ddellacosta: usually involving interop.
16:16	callen	tcrayford: lol, yep.
16:16	ddellacosta	callen, tcrayford: gotcha…haha
16:17	tcrayford	let's just make this thing an abstract class where all the methods are also abstract. Definitely shouldn't make it an interface, no sir
16:17	callen	most Clojure pain is just dealing with the sins of other communities.
16:18	callen	we're not blameless but it's disproportionate.
16:20	ddellacosta	callen: seems like (one of) Clojure's purpose(s) is in fact to mitigate the pain of dealing with the frustrations of other environments
16:20	ddellacosta	whoops, meeting
16:20	nDuff	Raynes: Doesn't work with my AFYD address.
16:21	wastrel	hi speaking of sins, how do i consume a wsdl thingy in clojure
16:21	callen	ddellacosta: yeap. Design priority.
16:21	nDuff	Raynes: ...for gmail.com addresses, great, _but_.
16:21	wastrel	i want to be able to talk to this web service but it provides no documentation beyond a wsdl file, never heard of wsdl before :]
16:21	llasram	tcrayford: a few high-profile projects have switched from interfaces to ABCs pretty deeply: Hadoop and Netty come to mind, but I'm sure there are others
16:21	nDuff	Raynes: ...asked their IRC channel about the state of AFYD support, and apparently it's back-burnered right now.
16:22	tcrayford	llasram: the thing I'm using is github.com/boundary/ordasity. It saves me from doing leader election in the distributed system I'm building.
16:23	llasram	Interesting
16:23	callen	tcrayford: I'm a little puzzled as to why you're not using Zookeeper directly.
16:23	callen	wanted the shake-n-bake clustering I guess?
16:24	tcrayford	ordasity handles a load of distributed logic. It's not single node leader election
16:24	tcrayford	more
16:24	tcrayford	I have these 64 queues that pump into stateful consumers, balance them and allow me to do failover
16:28	timvisher	i have basic clojure code that works entirely independently of clojurescript. i'd like to be able to store that in plain 'ol clj files under src/clj in https://github.com/timvisher/bible-plan. how do i go about doing that?
16:28	timvisher	can i reference namespaces from clj but not the other way around?
16:29	timvisher	obviously assuming that nothing platform specific is happening.
16:33	callen	timvisher: try it
16:34	timvisher	callen: 'try it', he says. 'worst that can happen is it doesn't work', he says. sheesh. it's like i'm an animal or something. :)
16:39	dnolen	timvisher: if you want to share code between CLJ & CLJS you will need to use lein cljsbuild crossovers or cljx
16:41	timvisher	dnolen: i have an ns with nothing but a map with keywords, ints, and strings in it.
16:42	timvisher	i'd need cljx or cljsbuild crossovers for that?
16:42	timvisher	to be fair, i haven't 'just tried it' yet
16:42	timvisher	:)
16:42	dnolen	timvisher: it won't work
16:42	timvisher	sweet. that's what i was hoping someone would say
16:42	timvisher	lol
16:42	timvisher	saves me the time
16:42	timvisher	interesting
16:42	dnolen	timvisher: there's no support for sharing code out of the box
16:42	timvisher	any pointers to docs on that?
16:43	dnolen	timvisher: never used code sharing features so I'll defer to someone else who has
16:43	timvisher	for my own info, cljx is specifically for when you have a library that needs to one thing on platform and another thing on another right?
16:43	cemerick	timvisher: cljx docs are pretty decent
16:44	cemerick	Not just, no. Even if your namespace is 100% portable (and so crossovers work), there's no REPL support.
16:44	timvisher	it's really not that big a deal anyway, it's just that the browser repl is so slow compared to the jvm repl so i'm hoping that i can work on the platform agnostic stuff from jvm clojure and then just import to clojurescript when i need to run it
16:45	cemerick	does anyone see >40% CPU when running cljsbuild auto these days?
16:45	rorschach	common lisper here…how difficult is it to switch over to clojure?
16:45	timvisher	cemerick: i'm way above that on my 11" air
16:45	cemerick	That's crazy, especially since I'm on JDK 7. But even so, scanning the whole directory tree shouldn't cause that.
16:46	timvisher	well, actually i shouldn't have spoken so fast. I'm talking about running a once
16:46	ToxicFrog	rorschach: try it and see? Clojure places a much heavier emphasis on FP and immutability than CL does, and is a lisp-1
16:46	timvisher	presumably auto does less work each time?
16:46	callen	rorschach: I'm an ex-CLer. Just teryi t.
16:47	callen	try*
16:47	technomancy	rorschach: the hardest part is un-learning all your bad habits
16:47	rorschach	haha alright, I'll give it a shot…my current company is interested in utilizing it
16:47	rorschach	thanks
16:47	callen	technomancy: I thought you came from PLT Scheme?
16:47	callen	you can't be serious about the elisp bit.
16:48	ToxicFrog	(personally I don't like CL or elisp, so moving to clojure was very easy~)
16:48	technomancy	callen: no; I only picked up scheme recently
16:48	technomancy	(unless you count implementing it)
16:48	technomancy	callen: I did ruby because I knew I couldn't get work in lisp =P
16:48	technomancy	but I had way more fun with elisp while I was waiting around for clojure than I did with ruby
16:49	callen	technomancy: I knew about Ruby and was able to guess the 'why' behind it.
16:50	timvisher	cemerick, dnolen: thanks for the info. poor man's solution is to simply `C-c C-l` the file from the jvm repl. wazam, you've got the ns!
16:50	timvisher	:)
16:50	callen	"raganwald: Engineering TDD: Drive bus into a river. Build bridge. Drive another bus across the river and into tree. Cut down tree. Drive a third bus..."
16:50	fikusz	I prefer clojure the language very over CL, but I'm missing the performance / stability CL has to offer
16:51	fikusz	the clojure repl takes half a minute to start up on my laptop
16:51	callen	technomancy: the weirdest conversation I ever had was with a Rubyist that had done Smalltalk and didn't believe me that Common Lisp impls had images too.
16:51	callen	fikusz: that's extreme.
16:51	technomancy	callen: hehe
16:51	callen	it shouldn't take anything close to 30s.
16:51	fikusz	callen: I guess it's the jvm
16:51	callen	technomancy: that was around the same time I started assuming 80% of Rubyists were huffing paint.
16:51	callen	fikusz: I mean, it is, but that
16:52	callen	is still way too long.
16:52	callen	fikusz: what sort of machine is it?
16:52	gfredericks	is (= (type :foo) (type "foo")) a known problem in cljs?
16:52	fikusz	callen: it's an older DELL, let me check...
16:52	technomancy	clojurebot: faster lein?
16:52	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
16:52	technomancy	bleh
16:52	hiredman	fikusz: startup time is a not really performance, it is cold start time
16:53	bhauman	rorschach: it's really helpful to have a good book while exploring. http://pragprog.com/book/shcloj2/programming-clojure
16:53	technomancy	clojurebot: faster lein is tricks for helping speed up start time for Leiningen: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Faster
16:53	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
16:53	callen	why does Clojurebot speak Irish?
16:53	fikusz	hiredman: ok, but if I use the repl a lot, it starts to eat away my memory as well
16:53	rorschach	is programming clojure or clojure programming better?
16:53	fikusz	hiredman: so I have to restart it, which again takes ~30sec
16:53	hiredman	fikusz: if you set the max heapsize it will never use more than that
16:54	callen	technomancy: you could mention pomegranate in the bit about having to restart when changing dependencies.
16:54	bhauman	rorschach: both books exist
16:54	callen	rorschach: clojure programming (clojurebook.com) is superior.
16:54	bhauman	rorschach: but I like the one I sent to you better
16:54	technomancy	callen: still super unpolished
16:54	callen	I know.
16:54	callen	I strongly disliked programming clojure.
16:55	hiredman	fikusz: if you use lein you can set that using :jvm-opts, -Xmx1g for a 1gig heap
16:55	fikusz	callen: well the machine is a core2 with 4 gigs of ram
16:55	callen	technomancy: can cemerick be convinced to use some of his 100% time to improve it?
16:55	callen	fikusz: wtf dude.
16:55	technomancy	callen: no way to know without trying
16:55	callen	cemerick: pomegranate.
16:55	technomancy	fikusz: I hack on a core2 with 4 gigs of ram
16:56	pbostrom	lein repl can take a while for a big project, 22s on my newish MBP
16:56	timvisher	anyone aware of a libary that can take english blobs and return word counts?
16:56	callen	anything in a list of NLP libraries.
16:57	hyPiRion	timvisher: yeah. It's called frequencies.
16:57	callen	or clojure.string/split " "
16:57	callen	oh you mean per word counts
16:57	hyPiRion	,(frequencies [:foo :bar :baz :foo :foo :baz])
16:57	clojurebot	{:foo 3, :bar 1, :baz 2}
16:57	fikusz	technomancy: well I have no idea what's causing it, maybe leiningen, maybe something's wrong with my setup
16:57	callen	timvisher: you want an NLP library if you want suffix conflation.
16:57	ToxicFrog	fikusz: my server is an athlon 64 with 1GB of memory. 'lein repl' takes 10 seconds to start up with a cold cache.
16:57	technomancy	fikusz: try the wiki page I linked to above
16:57	timvisher	callen: that sounds so impressive. :)
16:57	ToxicFrog	And 5s with a warm one.
16:58	technomancy	CPU and ram don't have much effect on startup time; it's mostly IO
16:58	fikusz	ToxicFrog: that's still a lot compared to CL I guess
16:58	callen	timvisher: what?
16:58	ToxicFrog	Yeah, I'm more saying that if it's taking 30s on your much more powerful machine that's really suprising and a bit worrying.
16:58	hiredman	it is true that the jvm will not release memory back to the os (once it grows its heap it hangs on to the memory for use in the future) but if you set the max heap to something you are comfortable with it will not grow beyond that
16:58	callen	unless it's got a 5400 RPM spinning rust drive.
16:59	ToxicFrog	(oh yeah, and I'm running raidz on an array in an eSATA enclosure, so io throughput isn't that hot either)
16:59	callen	timvisher: https://github.com/dakrone/clojure-opennlp
16:59	fikusz	callen: I'm not sure what it could be, but I'm using distro defaults and my projects don't use that many libs
17:00	technomancy	fikusz: getting lein from your distro too?
17:00	timvisher	callen: sorry, i mean i've got no idea what nlp and suffix conflation mean
17:00	callen	if I had to guess, it's due to non-SSD
17:00	callen	timvisher: are kick and kicks the same word?
17:00	fikusz	technomancy: no, I got it from git
17:00	timvisher	ahah
17:00	technomancy	ok, cool
17:00	timvisher	callen: no
17:00	technomancy	fikusz: wait, running from a checkout though?
17:00	fikusz	technomancy: I only have the jvm from my distro
17:00	callen	timvisher: then you don't need it.
17:00	callen	timvisher: proceed.
17:00	timvisher	lol
17:00	technomancy	fikusz: running from a release is faster than running from a checkout
17:00	fikusz	technomancy: not from a checkout, it's a release
17:00	technomancy	ok, cool
17:01	timvisher	the " " split is probably good enough
17:01	fikusz	for example I have a small web-scraping project using clj-time and enlive
17:01	timvisher	it doesn't need to be exact anyway
17:01	fikusz	and that's it
17:01	callen	timvisher: http://writequit.org/blog/?p=351
17:01	fikusz	still takes around 20s and it's my smallest project in clojure so far
17:02	bts-	is it possible, or does it make any sense to try, to run lein prep-tasks before loading code from my dev source-paths? i'm running thriftc as a prep task, but I have code that relies on that being done already in dev/user.clj
17:02	timvisher	callen: thanks for the links. looks like good information
17:03	fikusz	I really do love clojure, I'm only saying there is a big gap between it and something like SBCL for example
17:03	hiredman	bts-: assuming dev/ is a source-path, user.clj is being loaded by the clojure runtime when the clojure runtime starts, it is not something lein has any control over
17:04	technomancy	fikusz: yeah, it sucks for small-profile things definitely
17:04	bhauman	timvisher: NLP is natural language processing
17:04	fikusz	technomancy: which could be really important for doing embedded work
17:04	technomancy	fikusz: that's why I'm learning ocaml
17:05	timvisher	bhauman: picked up on that at this point. looks much like much more than what i need.
17:05	futile	How do you guys get anything done when you're chatting in IRC so often?
17:05	timvisher	thanks though!
17:05	hiredman	feh
17:05	hiredman	people keep saying that
17:05	technomancy	futile: /me glances around nervously
17:05	futile	Teach me your trick so I can do it too.
17:05	hiredman	clojure runs great on my beagle bone
17:05	timvisher	futile: most of these guys have at least 16 hyperthreaded cores in their wetware
17:05	hyPiRion	futile: that's why I don't get anything done!
17:05	hiredman	little arm SOC using oracle's arm jdk
17:05	futile	technomancy: how's leiningen 7 coming along?
17:05	ToxicFrog	futile: oh, it's simple, you just fork() when you get in to work in the morning
17:05	futile	:D
17:05	fikusz	technomancy: but why give up on lisp, when you have small-footprint fast implementations of other lisps available?
17:06	futile	ToxicFrog: awesome
17:06	fikusz	technomancy: like ecl
17:06	hyPiRion	technomancy: you've seen the new OCaml book which is in beta, right?
17:06	technomancy	fikusz: because not having nil is awesome
17:06	futile	so I'm dead serious about 2 projects now
17:06	futile	a clojure IDE, and a new language
17:06	fikusz	technomancy: yeah, I like haskell too
17:06	futile	I've wanted to do both of them since I first started learning programming 15 years ago.
17:06	technomancy	fikusz: and the equality situation with other lisps is depressing
17:06	fikusz	technomancy: it's good for robust programs, but it sucks for bottom-up development
17:06	futile	(except at the time it was just "a text editor" not a Clojure IDE)
17:06	technomancy	I care a lot more about referential transparency than I do about macros
17:07	TimMc	callen: Spinning rust drive... you mean one of these? http://farm1.static.flickr.com/43/102689398_c8a42b29e7.jpg
17:07	technomancy	that said my future will probably include a fair bit of racket
17:07	hyPiRion	I loved macros in CL, but somehow I've not used many in Clojure.
17:07	futile	I think doing a Clojure IDE written in Clojure using seesaw would be great, because there are so many tools available in Clojure for analyzing Clojure code.
17:07	fikusz	technomancy: yes, referential transparency is great: but clojure can show us, that you can have the best of both worlds
17:07	hyPiRion	made, not used.
17:08	futile	technomancy: wat!?
17:08	futile	technomancy: why not Clojure?
17:08	bts-	hiredman: hm. I am declaring that "dev/" is a source-path at the lein level though
17:08	technomancy	futile: I'm a parent, so I'm a teacher. Racket is optimized for teaching. you do the math. =)
17:08	fikusz	futile: have you tried running clojure on anything other than a pc? :)
17:09	futile	technomancy: oooh. meh I was gonna teach my son Clojure when he got a little more interested in programming
17:09	hyPiRion	fikusz: like humm, a browser?
17:09	futile	fikusz: i develop my clojure web app on my mac, since i dont have a pc, and run it on linux in ec2
17:09	technomancy	futile: I don't think teachability is something you can bolt on if it's not a core value of the community. not in a way that comes close to what racket has.
17:09	bts-	hiredman: :profiles {:dev {:source-paths ["dev"]}}
17:09	fikusz	hyPiRion: well a browser is technically still on a pc I guess :)
17:09	futile	technomancy: maybe. im not a very good teacher so i wouldnt know
17:10	jballanc	technomancy: ever thought of squeak (for teaching)?
17:10	technomancy	jballanc: a bit. I use Scratch a lot already.
17:10	jballanc	cool
17:10	technomancy	I'm sure it brings along a lot of bad habits though
17:10	fikusz	futile: I didn't mean servers, clojure is perfect for that. I meant small and underpowered devices
17:10	technomancy	very imperative
17:11	hyPiRion	fikusz: sure, if you consider a smartphone a pc I guess. That said, I know Clojure performs poorly on smaller processors
17:11	hyPiRion	8080 would cringe if it even thought about it
17:11	technomancy	ironically phones are much more personal than what most people think of as personal computers
17:11	dnolen	fikusz: depending on how underpowered ClojureScript works well
17:11	jballanc	fikusz: any thoughts on Clojure on another, lighter runtime?
17:12	fikusz	also applications like the ones in core-utils, the ones which you constantly and often. even a few-second startup time would make them really annoying and practically useless
17:12	hyPiRion	jballanc: tbaldrige has some ideas, see clojure-metal
17:12	technomancy	jballanc: there's a clojure #lang directive for racket; gets you a lot of the niceties
17:12	callen	timvisher: thank you for pitching in.
17:12	technomancy	700kb executables, 100ms startup time =)
17:12	fikusz	s/constantly/constantly use/
17:12	hiredman	when people talke about clojrue not being good for "embedded devices" without specificy the profile of the device it drives me crazy
17:12	jballanc	I've been working more with Lua recently, and been eyeing the clojurescript-lua project
17:12	timvisher	is their a basic way to throttle move through a list comprehension?
17:12	timvisher	callen: ?
17:12	jballanc	wondering what it would take to revive it
17:12	callen	timvisher: the homebrew thread.
17:13	callen	timvisher: that's my shindig.
17:13	hiredman	cellphones these days could run clojure fine if you got a jvm on them (dalvik is a toy)
17:13	timvisher	i.e. i've gat a little over a 1000 requests to an api that i'd like to make 'politely'
17:13	timvisher	callen: oh no problem. seems like the right thing to do.
17:13	dnolen	jballanc: cljs-lua is effectively dead, no work in a year
17:13	hiredman	my beaglebone which is much less powerful than my cellphone runs clojure fine
17:13	jballanc	dnolen: yeah, unfortunately
17:13	callen	timvisher: https://github.com/ericlavigne/browse-clojure/blob/master/src/browse_clojure/core.clj
17:14	callen	timvisher: throttling http ^^
17:14	dnolen	jballanc: but I don't really see what advantage it would have over running node on said device
17:14	callen	timvisher: could do it with delay too.
17:14	timvisher	callen: figured it'd be that.
17:14	callen	timvisher: sorry if I'm predictable.
17:14	hiredman	which leads me to believe that when people say "clojure doesn't/won't run well on embedded devices" they don't know what they are talking about at all
17:14	hiredman	which drives me nuts
17:14	timvisher	not the link. the link is very helpful. i menat how much you need to do to grow the solution
17:14	jballanc	dnolen: not sure what the extensibility story is like for node, but for lua it's amazing
17:15	timvisher	s/menat/meant
17:15	timvisher	although now i wish i'd said mentat
17:15	timvisher	cause that would've been funnier
17:15	dnolen	hiredman: well I heard it didn't run that well on early RPis, maybe improved now
17:15	jballanc	dnolen: luajit ffi + cljs could be very interesting for integrating with existing C libs
17:15	fikusz	jballanc: I would very much like to see Clojure with a minimal runtime, I guess the way interop part designed for Java would be pretty useless then
17:15	callen	dnolen: beetlejuice beetlejuice beetlejuice - https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/pull/21733
17:16	hiredman	dnolen: because people used bad jvms
17:16	bltavares	hi there everyone. I am trying to start a project using clojurescript and raphael js and I am having troubles with cljs-build and foreign-libs.
17:16	callen	dnolen: mxcl wants your opinion.
17:16	bltavares	would this be the better place to ask for help?
17:16	dnolen	jballanc: ffi is nice
17:16	dnolen	bltavares: just ask your quesetion
17:16	dnolen	bltavares: this is the place
17:16	noonian	there are plenty of optimizing scheme compilers that it should be fairly easy to port clojure to, I know someone was compiling clojure to c with gambit but there are native compilers also
17:17	jballanc	fikusz: not necessarily...hence lua/luajit ffi
17:17	jballanc	obviously it wouldn't be the same
17:17	jballanc	but you could preserve the spirit of being a hosted language
17:17	bltavares	I have this project.clj https://gist.github.com/bltavares/6188586 and the foreign-lib does not seem to be loaded. The output of the copiled js does not contain the library and google.require fails
17:17	hiredman	dnolen: people would install some random jvm like jam and complain about peformance
17:17	technomancy	hiredman: openjdk is useless on the pi
17:17	fikusz	jballanc: yes, it could be changed (but you couldn't call it clojure anymore I guess). Clojure FFI is pretty much geared towards objects/OOP
17:18	jballanc	technomancy: btw...would you be interested in PRs for skaro? or is it just a playground?
17:19	technomancy	jballanc: happy to take something to streamline what's already there. not too interested in new features or anything.
17:19	hiredman	technomancy: the pi supports hardware fp, and right now the only decent arm jvms are soft float abi, so while people tend to put hardfloat abi distros on pis, if you did soft float you could use a real jvm
17:19	callen	technomancy: what about more language coverage?
17:19	hiredman	and since when is the pi the only embedded device in the world?
17:19	technomancy	hiredman: it's not any better on arduino =P
17:19	callen	technomancy: you don't have Common Lisp :(
17:19	dnolen	bltavares: not sure if a url like that will work, did you try that with a local file?
17:19	noonian	since it became available
17:19	hiredman	phones today are more powerful than the pi
17:19	technomancy	callen: I added a link in the readme
17:19	dnolen	bltavares: also did you look at this http://lukevanderhart.com/2011/09/30/using-javascript-and-clojurescript.html?
17:20	bhauman	if you have a iPhone here is clojure running on an device http://rigsomelight.com/dotsters/
17:20	callen	technomancy: that link is dead yo.
17:20	callen	technomancy: don't link to dyndns stuff :(
17:20	callen	ephemeral as all hell.
17:21	bltavares	dnolen: yep. That is where I got the initial help.
17:21	bltavares	dnolen: there is this line in that same article "Note that the value for :file can be either a URL or a classpath-relative path to a local file."
17:21	bltavares	and looking at the code it seems to detect if it is a url before slurping the content
17:21	technomancy	callen: sure; I can add another
17:21	fowlslegs	Are there no native clojure libraries for handling matrices?
17:21	jballanc	technomancy: I was playing with a script to compile/run each example
17:22	hiredman	actually openjdk even has instructions for getting openjdk running on a pi
17:22	hiredman	https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/OpenJFX/OpenJFX+on+the+Raspberry+Pi
17:22	bltavares	dnolen: but I havent tried locally. I was expecting it to work given this commit https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/96b38e2c951ef07b397e9d
17:23	dnolen	bltavares: try it locally
17:23	Raynes	<3
17:25	pbostrom	fowlslegs: I was looking into this the other day, core.matrix looks decent: https://github.com/mikera/matrix-api also clatrix: https://github.com/tel/clatrix
17:26	callen	dnolen: I love you.
17:26	bltavares	dnolen: locally it worked!
17:26	bltavares	\o/
17:26	bhauman	did prismatic ever release flop?
17:26	dnolen	bltavares: cool
17:27	fowlslegs	pbostrom: Thanks I found those. I actually wanted to use it to solve a 4clojure.com problem so I can't load any libraries.
17:27	bltavares	dnolen: the documentation is misleading
17:28	bltavares	or maybe it is because github redirects the request to a https server
17:28	fowlslegs	pbostrom: Very strange that one has to resort to external libraries.
17:29	gilbertw1	Any reason why lein would ignore a ~/.lein/profiles.clj file?
17:29	dnolen	bltavares: yeah would want confirmation that it's not a https or http agent issue before changing docs.
17:32	pbostrom	fowlslegs: my understanding is that doing operations on a vector of vectors is going to be rather slow for anything non-trivial
17:33	noonian	why?
17:33	clojurebot	noonian: because you can't handle the truth!
17:33	noonian	lol
17:33	fowlslegs	But it would save so much code in this instance.
17:35	pbostrom	this presentation has a pretty good overview with some empirical data: http://skillsmatter.com/podcast/scala/machine-learning-with-clojure
17:37	fowlslegs	I'll check that out
17:37	fowlslegs	GOing to meet a friend
17:37	fowlslegs	Thank you pbostrom.
17:37	futile	wat
17:37	pbostrom	np
17:38	bltavares	dnolen: I just confirmed that is because of the redirect
17:38	dnolen	bltavares: thx
17:38	bltavares	I brought a simple http server and locally it works
17:39	pbostrom	fowlslegs: that presentation contains some clojure code for matrix mult and dot prodct, it's only a few lines
17:39	bltavares	dnolen: should this be in the documentation of lein-cljsbuild?
17:40	dnolen	bltavares: probably, lein-cljsbuild likely needs a new maintainer, I think emezeske is busy w/ other things these days.
17:40	honey	hello
17:40	honey	i have a programming question.
17:41	dnolen	cemerick: any thoughts about a CLJS tools org? I've been thinking it might be worthwhile to consolidate under a common roof?
17:42	fowlslegs	pbostrom: That will certianly be good to know. For the purpose of my 4clojure.com soln. I only need to be able to isolate columns in a vector of vectors. I'm pretty certain I can do this with interleave or interspose, but if you know of a better way send me a pm as I am heading out right now and will miss it in the general chat. Thanks once again.
17:43	honey	is there anyone here?
17:43	dnolen	honey: yes
17:43	honey	ok thanks.
17:43	honey	i thought i was alone.
17:43	justin_smith	honey: just saying you have a question isn't really how one uses ir
17:44	justin_smith	*irc
17:44	honey	are your chan rules in topic?
17:44	honey	i new here. sorry.
17:44	justin_smith	it's just a convention, you just ask your question
17:44	justin_smith	no big deal
17:44	honey	oh ok.
17:44	gtrak	~ask
17:44	clojurebot	Huh?
17:44	hyPiRion	~anyone
17:44	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
17:45	justin_smith	so what is your question?
17:45	gtrak	how do you record a thing in clojurebot?
17:45	fowlslegs	pbostrom: And also diagonals, determinants, and frankly quite anything matrix related would be good to know.
17:45	fowlslegs	clojurebot: You're sexy.
17:45	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
17:46	hyPiRion	gtrak: clojurebot: foo is<reply>bar, or clojurebot: foo is bar
17:46	hyPiRion	first results in "bar", second in "foo is bar"
17:46	gtrak	I will steal the one from ##java
17:46	gtrak	~ask is <reply>The Ask To Ask protocol wastes more bandwidth than any version of the Ask protocol, so just ask your question.
17:46	clojurebot	Alles klar
17:47	pbostrom	fowlslegs: I haven't actually done too much matrix stuff in clojure personally; just write all of them yourself, you might learn something :)
17:47	gtrak	~ask
17:47	clojurebot	The Ask To Ask protocol wastes more bandwidth than any version of the Ask protocol, so just ask your question.
17:47	timvisher	callen: dead simple albeit far less precise solution to the throttling thing: https://gist.github.com/timvisher/6188945
17:51	timvisher	it's somewhat interesting to think of time as a side-effect.
17:51	futile	someone mention datomic?
17:55	TimMc	Raynes: Oof, speaking of lavabit: The owner just shut it down because (presuambly) the NSA tried to install a backdoor.
17:56	TimMc	I should find an Icelandic email host or something.
17:57	callen	futile: nope
17:58	hyPiRion	TimMc: even better, they are creating an open source email server with focus on privacy
17:58	callen	timvisher: o_O
17:58	hyPiRion	http://mailpile.is/
17:59	callen	hyPiRion: that's a client, not a server.
17:59	noonian	that lavabit thing makes me sick to my stomach
18:00	hyPiRion	callen: shoot, I was really hoping they were implementing a server
18:00	hyPiRion	It looked like it, when they added in the "self-hosted" part.
18:01	TimMc	There's also https://parley.co/ which looks interesting.
18:01	callen	hyPiRion: the client is self-hosted. it's webmail.
18:01	callen	like zimbra.
18:01	callen	which you can go install right now.
18:02	TimMc	I hope they've solved the searchable encrypted email problem which seems to have stymied every client but mutt.
18:03	hyPiRion	callen: but zimbra is a server? I'm confused now.
18:03	TimMc	hyPiRion: SMTP/POP/IMAP client; web server.
18:04	hyPiRion	oh.
18:04	callen	hyPiRion: I know you know what a server, a client, and webmail are.
18:04	TimMc	Think phpmyadmin.
18:05	callen	if it helps, pretend mailpile aka rip-off-dumb-yuppies-through-indie-gogo is alpine for the web.
18:05	wink	you make my head spin you guys
18:05	callen	wink: why?
18:05	wink	callen: the last 20 lines of people saying weird things.
18:05	callen	there's no better way to make money than to feed off white peoples' fears and sell them a product that taps into recent news stories.
18:06	callen	I should've thought of the encrypted webmail thingy.
18:06	callen	and just reskinned an existing webmail client
18:06	ToBeReplaced	man sometimes i write horrible code.... if i have a seq fns [f g h] and I want a seq of [(f) (g) (h)]... is the best option (map #(%) fns)?
18:06	technomancy	thinking of cutting lein 2.3 from current master
18:06	callen	technomancy: what's changed?
18:06	technomancy	anyone got anything else they want to get in?
18:07	technomancy	buncha ... stuff
18:07	technomancy	nothing too exciting; lemme see
18:07	hyPiRion	ToBeReplaced: ((apply juxt [f g h])) should work too
18:08	TimMc	((apply apply juxt fns)), nice
18:08	TimMc	Err, no. Never mind.
18:08	hyPiRion	TimMc: hah
18:08	ToBeReplaced	hyPiRion: yep looks good thanks
18:09	technomancy	callen: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/NEWS.md <- just updated
18:09	justin_smith	,((apply juxt [+ *]))
18:09	clojurebot	[0 1]
18:09	TimMc	&((apply apply apply juxt [[[+ *]]]))
18:09	lazybot	⇒ [0 1]
18:09	justin_smith	nice
18:11	callen	technomancy: thank you :D
18:12	TimMc	callen: s/white // and agreed -- unless they're doing mega usability studies around encryption.
18:13	hyPiRion	,(apply apply ((juxt first rest) ((apply juxt [(constantly +) (constantly 2) (constantly 4)]))))
18:13	clojurebot	6
18:15	callen	TimMc: the demographic is just to highlight people who have the spare time to worry about things that don't affect them and the spare money to spend against their weird interests.
18:15	callen	hyPiRion: weirdo.
18:16	rasmusto	hyPiRion: is this how you write all of your code?
18:16	hyPiRion	rasmusto: no, it's not usually that readable
18:16	rasmusto	hyPiRion: or juxt for fn?
18:16	hyPiRion	$google hello swearjure
18:16	lazybot	[hyPiRion/hello-swearjure · GitHub] https://github.com/hyPiRion/hello-swearjure
18:16	rasmusto	hyPiRion: I was feeling like twisting my brain up, thanks for the link :)
18:17	noonian	,(doc juxt)
18:17	clojurebot	"([f] [f g] [f g h] [f g h & fs]); Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the juxtaposition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, and returns a vector containing the result of applying each fn to the args (left-to-right). ((juxt a b c) x) => [(a x) (b x) (c x)]"
18:17	hyPiRion	no problem, you'll have problems looking at me seriously ever again
18:18	technomancy	clojurebot: juxt?
18:18	clojurebot	if you think 'complement is great, wait till you see 'juxt
18:18	timvisher	callen: o_0 right back at you?
18:18	technomancy	so true
18:19	callen	technomancy: you know the first Rust compiler was written in OCaml right?
18:19	technomancy	callen: no kidding?
18:19	callen	technomancy: yep, OCaml was how they bootstrapped it.
18:19	callen	technomancy: have you looked at Rust much? It steals a lot from the ML family.
18:20	callen	I know the systems focus can throw some people off, but Rust is a credible pure-functional language with nice escape hatches.
18:20	technomancy	a bit. seemed designed to appeal to people who can stomach C++, if only barely.
18:20	noonian	hadn't even heard of Rust until just now
18:20	callen	technomancy: naw, it has more in common with a concurrent OCaml semantically.
18:20	whee	I find myself using "into" to apply a function to a map's values and get a map with the same keys and the modified values; is there something more idiomatic for this?
18:20	technomancy	at least they have the decency to feel bad about not having a solid repl setup, unlike go
18:20	justin_smith	I got a rust shirt at oscon, I went to the booth and tried to talk to them, the guy only spoke japanese, he handed me a shirt and a pen
18:21	callen	technomancy: the syntax and keywords have changed a lot too.
18:21	justin_smith	and a syntax reference card
18:21	callen	technomancy: Rust has a REPL...
18:21	technomancy	I do wish the Mozillans the best with it though
18:21	justin_smith	the gc is optional
18:21	technomancy	callen: last I heard it was "this is super experimental and might even work; try it out!"
18:21	justin_smith	which is awesome for systems stuff
18:21	callen	justin_smith: yep. wonderful. :)
18:22	callen	technomancy: rusti seems to be at parity with the real rust.
18:22	futile	anyone wanna port clojure to llvm with me?
18:22	hyPiRion	futile: man
18:22	callen	technomancy: I'm pretty sure it works fine.
18:23	hyPiRion	$google clojure-metal
18:23	lazybot	[halgari/clojure-metal · GitHub] https://github.com/halgari/clojure-metal
18:23	technomancy	callen: that's cool. last I checked was a year or so.
18:23	patchwork	Trying to compile cljsc from a clojure repl, getting an error:
18:23	patchwork	(cljsc/build "resources/cljs/hello.cljs" {:output-to "hello.js"})
18:23	patchwork	NullPointerException cljs.core/import-macros/fn--4840 (core.clj:42)
18:23	futile	hyPiRion: yay
18:23	patchwork	Just following the quickstart, anyone know how to fix this?
18:24	patchwork	cljs file is identical to the one in the quickstart
18:24	futile	hyPiRion: also https://github.com/schani/clojurec
18:24	futile	whoa
18:24	hyPiRion	yeah, I know
18:24	patchwork	Actually, subsequent calls give me : "AssertionError Assert failed: Can't recur here"
18:24	hyPiRion	many out there now
18:25	guns	technomancy: What do you think about an envvar for binding clojure.pprint/print-right-margin when running slamhound from the command line?
18:25	guns	(and perhaps defaulting to 80)
18:25	futile	welp
18:26	futile	looks like i have no more valid reason to write it myself
18:26	technomancy	guns: that sounds reasonable
18:26	futile	ill have to settle for invalid reasons
18:26	guns	technomancy: what would you like to call it? PRINT_RIGHT_MARGIN
18:26	technomancy	guns: how about SLAMHOUND_MAX_COLUMNS
18:27	guns	technomancy: great. I'll add it to the :refer :all patch
18:27	callen	relative to how well most things work in Rust.
18:27	noonian	whee: do you mean a function that assumes all values have some property (like being a number) and transforms the values some way but leaves the keys alone?
18:27	callen	technomancy: you really should give it another whirl soon.
18:27	justin_smith	also I like the two heaps thing rust has
18:27	callen	the only "unstable" thing that's relevant to users is rust-pkg is still coming together.
18:27	callen	justin_smith: do you mean the per task heaps or something else?
18:27	justin_smith	yeah that
18:27	callen	that's not two heaps
18:27	callen	that's n-heaps
18:27	justin_smith	gotcha, I see people from the rust world call it two heaps
18:27	callen	it might be pooled for the tasks
18:27	callen	but the way it was originally explained to me was along the lines of what erlang does.
18:27	callen	they might've made it a little more systems friendly since then.
18:27	justin_smith	maybe "two heaps" means your task heap, and the global one (which of course each other task also sees two heaps, though there are more than two total)
18:27	justin_smith	maybe?
18:27	callen	maybe, I'm not usre
18:27	callen	I've mostly been following the changes to syntax and the iterators lately.
18:27	callen	http://attractivechaos.wordpress.com/2013/04/06/performance-of-rust-and-dart-in-sudoku-solving/
18:27	technomancy	callen: wait does rust only infer types of locals?
18:28	callen	technomancy: you can't H-M a language like Rust.
18:28	callen	technomancy: so yes.
18:28	technomancy	=\
18:28	callen	or I should say D-M I guess.
18:29	callen	technomancy: I wouldn't want the restrictions of a damas milner compatible type system in a language like Rust.
18:30	technomancy	maybe once I've done enough ocaml to hate it I'll feel the same way
18:30	callen	technomancy: well like I'd said before, I need concurrency and Rust is a close-enough concurrent systems ML
18:31	callen	I don't hate OCaml, I just got tired of the broken ecosystem and constraints.
18:31	technomancy	callen: good for you. =) different people want different things.
18:31	hyPiRion	callen: hasn't the ecosystem turned better lately?
18:31	callen	I know, I'm just saying.
18:31	justin_smith	futile: clojure-metal is far from done, I am sure they would appreciate help
18:31	callen	hyPiRion: yes but that doesn't mean OCaml is suddenly concurrent.
18:32	futile	justin_smith: its clojurec im worried about
18:32	callen	justin_smith: he doesn't actually do anything.
18:32	callen	justin_smith: he just proposes projects but doesn't write code.
18:32	Raynes	It also doesn't mean people suddenly actually use OCaml for anything.
18:32	futile	justin_smith: https://github.com/schani/clojurec
18:32	Raynes	And thus libraries are probably not growing very quickly.
18:32	callen	Raynes: other than implementing languages better than OCaml.
18:32	hyPiRion	callen: nono, I'm just mentioning it.
18:32	abp	huh!
18:33	futile	hullo!
18:33	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
18:33	futile	yeah, it was.
18:33	abp	for sure
18:33	hyPiRion	oh what, the argument ordering for isa? and instance? is confusing
18:33	technomancy	isa? =(
18:34	hyPiRion	technomancy: huh?
18:34	technomancy	(is isa? actually-is-a?) ; -> false
18:34	callen	It's doubly disappointing that OCaml comes from the same organization that did join-calculus.
18:34	technomancy	it's not a well-named function?
18:34	callen	I don't know how you fuck up that deeply.
18:34	hyPiRion	technomancy: I don't know
18:34	hyPiRion	,(isa? Integer Number)
18:34	clojurebot	true
18:35	technomancy	hyPiRion: but that's nonsense
18:35	technomancy	Integer is a Class, not a Number
18:35	Raynes	I'm pretty sure an integer is a number.
18:35	hyPiRion	technomancy: oh yeah, that's true too. That confuses me as well
18:35	technomancy	Raynes: then it should be called instances-of-this-are?
18:35	hyPiRion	,(instance? Number 2) ; Order reversed
18:35	clojurebot	true
18:35	Raynes	I'm not following what is confusing.
18:35	SegFaultAX	Raynes: I think his point is that isa sounds like it's querying an object's type, not the class hierarchy itself.
18:36	Raynes	shrug
18:36	technomancy	(that's apart from the arg order facepalm part)
18:36	callen	technomancy: is it that you hate writing down the type signatures?
18:37	callen	you end up writing down your types in Haskell typically, surely it's the same for your code in OCaml?
18:37	callen	I don't think anybody writes Haskell code without type sigs. it doesn't work half the time anyway.
18:37	technomancy	callen: if you get inference for locals but not args, it means locals are more convenient than args
18:37	technomancy	if locals are more convenient than args, then that gives you incentive not to break things out into their own function when they should be
18:37	technomancy	which leads to function bodies being longer than they would be otherwise
18:38	technomancy	which leads to hate, which leads to anger, &c
18:38	technomancy	this is what happened to me when I wrote Mirah anyway
18:38	callen	maybe.
18:38	hyPiRion	which leads to poorly designed programming languages, and then the circle is complete.
18:38	callen	Haskell users seem to have no problem with decomposition and function composition based APIs.
18:38	callen	despite always writing down their types.
18:39	justin_smith	no no, anger leads to hate which leads to knowledge
18:39	technomancy	justin_smith: oh dang; I forgot about that
18:40	technomancy	haskell people want to spend all day thinking about types. I'm not like that. I like OCaml because it doesn't put them in my face everywhere.
18:40	justin_smith	I miss ocaml
18:40	callen	TimMc: to reinforce my earlier point, there's a programmer on my twitter feed freaking out about police arresting somebody across the street. He's even talking about moving. After I was done lol'ing I googled - invariably caucasian.
18:40	hyPiRion	justin_smith: it's not too late
18:40	abp	technomancy: But thinking about types ensures your program is correct!
18:40	callen	technomancy: thinking about types is culturally part of ML. They're the ones that got that ball rolling.
18:40	technomancy	abp: what can I say; I live on the edge.
18:41	callen	technomancy: I think you're alone in this with respect to OCaml.
18:41	justin_smith	it also keeps you regular, and purifies the soul
18:41	callen	very zen-like way to do OCaml though. Pro.
18:41	whee	noonian: basically this: (defn map-values [m f] (into {} (for [[k v] m] [k (f v)])))
18:41	whee	noonian: I'm guessing there's already a function for it, since it seems like a common pattern
18:41	patchwork	So is this just way out of date? https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Quick-Start
18:41	justin_smith	whee: not really, just a common pattern
18:41	patchwork	I guess 10 months ago is awhile in clojurescript time
18:42	abp	technomancy: Well, something like, write types or know what you are doing anyway and check where necsessary would've been more in my favour, but ok. :P
18:42	patchwork	Anyone have a current method for compiling cljs from a clojure repl?
18:42	hyPiRion	whee: it's in the useful library
18:42	callen	technomancy: mis-inference of types in Damas-Milner based languages like OCaml and Haskell is really common for me. I don't know how you avoided bumping into that.
18:42	hyPiRion	(the lib named useful)
18:42	technomancy	abp: I like getting yelled at when there's a mistake, sure.
18:42	technomancy	callen: like overlapping field names or other stuff?
18:43	callen	technomancy: No not even that. I had to write interface files for my functions in OCaml.
18:43	whee	hyPiRion: perfect...I'll go check that out; thanks
18:43	abp	technomancy: Who doesn't? But let's say constructively being talked to.
18:44	technomancy	abp: I've noticed a dramatic decrease in ESL-based grammatical errors in the compiler messages just in the last 2 years
18:45	noonian	hyPiRion: is useful just a bunch of miscellaneous useful functions?
18:46	hyPiRion	noonian: afaik, yes.
18:46	abp	technomancy: And really, I'm talking about http://blog.fogus.me/2012/06/20/not-enough/ vs "a pure dynamic language is always the right thing"
18:46	futile	ok, gotta get some work done
18:46	noonian	whee: you could also use zipmap, (zipmap (keys m) (map f (vals m))) but i don't think it's any more elegant than what you were doing
18:46	noonian	hyPiRion: cool
18:47	cemerick	dnolen: you mean on github, or elsewhere?
18:47	technomancy	anyone know if `lein upgrade` is still busted on windows? https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1150
18:47	abp	technomancy: Well, C and C++ while just starting out in programming puts compiler yelling in perspective. More like vomitting VS6...
18:47	technomancy	abp: see I would love to see a compiler that's hooked up to insult generation algorithms
18:48	cemerick	callen: improve what?
18:48	technomancy	:compiler-insults :shakespeare in defproject or something
18:48	hyPiRion	technomancy: you can do that with sudo, it's neat
18:48	technomancy	hyPiRion: love it
18:48	hyPiRion	they are predefined though
18:49	technomancy	yeah, we can do better than that
18:49	callen	cemerick: pomegranate.
18:49	cemerick	callen: in what way?
18:49	callen	technomancy: what was your objection?
18:50	cemerick	The aether stuff is radioactive. I consider that part of the library to be a failure.
18:50	technomancy	callen: to which?
18:51	justin_smith	I would like to see a compiler with zalgo errors
18:51	justin_smith	the more you fuck up your code, the more unintelligible the output
18:52	abp	technomancy: Easy, just dont use alphanumerics. Sorry hyPiRion. :)
18:54	hyPiRion	every time you hit a compile error, the compiler converts your code to swearjurian.
18:54	abp	hyPiRion: Oh I just found an application for a subset of swearjure. :)
18:55	hyPiRion	abp: the error message thing or what? :o
18:56	abp	hyPiRion: The insult generation algorithm for the compiler, quite manual but.. wait: "Please use "!$%&/-;:.,=" for symbols would be approptiate. :)
18:57	hyPiRion	heh
18:57	abp	ah, quote miss
18:57	hyPiRion	I'm doing something which can turn into something like that
18:58	hyPiRion	Swear at you when your tests fail
18:58	abp	Also with workflow integration?
18:58	hyPiRion	well, with lein test.
18:59	hyPiRion	coincidentally I'm writing tests for it now
18:59	abp	The five whys for your project: 1. Make an easy target.
18:59	abp	Does it work for you? ;P
18:59	muhoo	so far, nothing i've seen beats cljs stacktraces for the wtf factor
18:59	hyPiRion	abp: oh yeah, it does
19:00	hyPiRion	actually, I designed it because I got bored of waiting for the Leiningen test cases to finish
19:00	hyPiRion	so I wanted to get some sound signal whenever those test finished.
19:00	abp	muhoo: huh? I've seen quite well put error messages with offending js using browser nrepl.. after 5 minutes of programming.
19:00	abp	muhoo: That's all I did in ClojureScript :x
19:01	abp	hyPiRion: Ah like yelling at you while your program fucks up?
19:02	hyPiRion	abp: well, more like signalling when the test suite has finished
19:02	hyPiRion	but it could be used for that later on, yes.
19:02	abp	hyPiRion: yeah, the word sound arrived even in my brain by now. :)
19:04	muhoo	abp: it's been a few months since i did any cljs, but i'm pretty sure i saved or maybe posted some good ones.
19:04	abp	hyPiRion: Yeah lets hook up swearing samples to failed tests and let all tests run allways.
19:04	muhoo	wow, just browsing my history on reheap, it's like a catalog of fail. every broken thing that's baffled me for a year is there in one convenient place :-/
19:04	justin_smith	swear at you if tests fail, swear twice as much if you push without running tests
19:05	abp	muhoo: Like life: fail<->fail, get used to it or die?
19:06	abp	justin_smith: CI
19:06	abp	justin_smith: more like CS
19:06	muhoo	abp: more like get used to it, and die. the dying part isn't really a choice.
19:06	abp	muhoo: Yeah but let it be the later part also, please.
19:07	muhoo	the learning part, happily, is.
19:09	abp	muhoo: That's the wise reaction. :P
19:13	Fer`	Hi there, is there a better idiom for (some identity coll) ?
19:13	ThatOneGuy	depends on the coll
19:13	Fer`	I just wanna check if there is anything non nil on it
19:14	Fer`	it's a seq
19:14	ThatOneGuy	lazy-seq?
19:14	hyPiRion	(not-any? nil? coll) sounds better then
19:14	technomancy	depends on whether you care about false vs nil
19:14	hyPiRion	er.
19:14	Fer`	no its nil vs something because its the result of mapping re-seq
19:14	hyPiRion	not-every?*
19:15	Fer`	i'll use not-every? :-)
19:20	Fer`	Wait that ends up being (not-every? (complement nil?) ..). I'm not sure if that's worse :-P
19:21	Fer`	Oh just every? :-)
19:21	hyPiRion	not every element is non-nil.
19:21	hyPiRion	some element is nil
19:27	abp	Fer`: (assert (not-any? ::unbound cells) (str "Got unbound cell: " (some ::unbound cells)))
19:27	abp	Fer`: That was a nice line to write. :)
19:27	callen	muhoo: CLJS stackstraces with core.async are worse.
19:27	callen	muhoo: way, way worse.
19:28	callen	muhoo: you end up balls deep in a state machine you didn't have any real participation in. I'd rather debug Ragel C output.
19:28	callen	core.async is amazing, but the debugging...z0mg.
19:28	abp	callen: on modern things. :) Have your read http://hueypetersen.com/posts/2013/08/02/the-state-machines-of-core-async/
19:29	callen	abp: on modern things what?
19:29	callen	yes I've read that.
19:29	abp	callen: you
19:29	abp	callen: ah ok, I thougt it helps/mitigates
19:30	callen	technomancy: what do you want fixed in pomegranate before you're comfortable recommending it?
19:31	callen	is this accurate? "Pomegranate is being used by Leiningen v2.x as its sole dependency resolution library. This has prompted rapid maturation of the scope and quality of Aether support."
19:31	abp	callen: https://github.com/swannodette/Ejecta just blew me awaey, conceptually, let alone core.async on cljs error msgs..
19:32	abp	Is anyone in here using pallet for automation besides the clouds?
19:32	callen	abp: no, I avoid it all costs and use Fabric or Ansible instead.
19:32	abp	Or virtualboxes...
19:32	callen	virtualboxes aren't an automation methodology.
19:32	callen	they're a stateful machine image.
19:33	abp	callen: No but well supported by pallet, but thanks. :P
19:33	technomancy	callen: oh, I'd want something that could save off the old project.clj, compare it with the new one, and dynamically add new dependencies to the classpath where possible and issue huge warnings (or maybe abort) where not.
19:33	abp	/query hypirion
19:33	callen	technomancy: sounds magical.
19:34	technomancy	sufficiently advanced technology, &c
19:34	abp	nice one
19:34	callen	technomancy: I'm not totally sure why one would want to munge the user's project.clj. AFAIAC pomegranate is to make working in a REPL less-annoying.
19:34	callen	ala Quicklisp.
19:35	callen	and yes, this is something Common Lisp already had
19:35	callen	and it works fine.
19:35	technomancy	callen: no, I mean the user would edit project.clj and then go to the repl and be all "hey repl, become the change you want to see in the world" or wahtever
19:35	technomancy	boom
19:36	callen	technomancy: oh, now I get it.
19:36	kmicu	BOOOOOOM
19:36	callen	technomancy: that's fucking sweet.
19:36	technomancy	callen: maybe we can convince futile to do it
19:36	technomancy	oh, he left
19:36	callen	I don't think I've seen you overtly troll like that before.
19:37	callen	technomancy: my next project is Rack::attack for Ring. I'll add this to the list.
19:37	technomancy	callen: I try to talk people into writing software I want all the time
19:37	technomancy	it's how clojurebot exists
19:41	callen	well cemerick probably isn't going to do it.
19:41	callen	he's too busy with not doing anything ever that he doesn't want to do.
19:44	hugod	ritz has support for reloading a changed project.clj file
19:44	ThatOneGuy	I'm in the same boat. The only thing keeping my attention is project euler problems in clojure. I should be working at work :'(
19:48	callen	hugod: if only I could figure out how to debug code with it.
19:48	callen	I would love something like this one-liner for Clojure: 'import sys; sys.stdout = sys.__stdout__; import ipdb; ipdb.set_trace()'
19:53	hugod	callen: and what does that do exactly?
19:53	supersym	what were you talking about trying to get, reload a project without repl restart?
19:54	technomancy	hugod: huh; I think you told me that once and I forgot
19:54	technomancy	will have to try that out
19:54	technomancy	hugod: have you tried my nrepl-discover thingy yet?
19:54	callen	hugod: rehooks stdout and trips a pdb-based debugger that uses the ipython shell.
19:54	hugod	technomancy: sorry, no - I've not done anything on ritz/nrepl since c/west
19:54	callen	hugod: it's convenient, easy to use, and powerful enough for almost any Python debugging use-case.
19:55	callen	hugod: and you get to debug your code in terms of the native language (python) not something eldritch underneath.
19:56	arohner	is it possible to deliver an exception w/ promise/deliver?
19:56	supersym	callen: you said 'like this one-liner for CLOJURE'..how is that?
19:57	callen	supersym: you misunderstood what I was saying.
19:57	supersym	right :P
19:57	callen	supersym: it's a Python one-liner, I'd like something comparable for Clojure.
19:57	supersym	well as in the one-liner or the debugger or...
19:57	supersym	now I'm all confused :)
19:58	supersym	since we dont have a debugger that I know of,...nor do we really care about lines? :P
19:59	callen	arohner: wrap it in an fn and deliver an executable?
19:59	callen	arohner: https://www.refheap.com/17420
20:00	callen	exceptions aren't values, so what you're asking for is a little odd.
20:01	callen	you could do some magic with slingshot if you were so inclined, probably a waste of time though.
20:05	ToxicFrog	supersym: "here is a python one-liner that activates useful debugging features. It would be nice if clojure had an equivalent, both in "usefulness of debugger" and "ease of activation"."
20:05	callen	ToxicFrog: gracious of you, thank you.
20:21	callen	technomancy: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-August/005158.html
20:40	callen	technomancy: why is that wondermark comic your status?
20:46	technomancy	callen: I'm trying to be positive, so I'd rather not go into detail.
20:48	technomancy	it's not about ocaml or rust if that's what you're wondering =P
20:55	callen	http://michid.wordpress.com/2010/01/29/scala-type-level-encoding-of-the-ski-calculus/
21:08	srruby	Any opinion on the value of clojure conf? I have to pay from my own pocket from california. I'm an experienced Ruby dev. Thanks, John
21:10	mlb-	I feel like I'm missing something: aside from conj operating differently, what is the difference between lists and vectors?
21:14	callen	mlb-: they're different data structures with different performance characteristics and syntax.
21:14	callen	conj'ing a list is a head cons, conj'ing a vector is an append.
21:14	callen	mlb-: where's your book?
21:19	jcromartie	had too much to drink, typed "hookup" instead of "hiccup"
21:19	jcromartie	not going to work
21:22	schaefer	core.logic question: i want some interop between a core logic program and clojure. core.logic/project nearly gives me what i want but if the lvar is not ground, i don't want to execute the code within the projection. ideally, i'd like project to fail if the listed lvars are not ground.
21:23	schaefer	how can i write a goal that fails if the lvar is not ground?
21:23	schaefer	seems like this is a fairly common case. i'm figure i must be missing something in the library
21:23	brehaut	schaefer: does a non-grounded lvar unify with itself?
21:24	schaefer	yep: (l/run 1 [q]
21:24	schaefer	(l/== q q))
21:24	schaefer	returns (_0)
21:24	hiredman	schaefer: I would recommend rewriting to avoid project
21:24	Fretsejaz1	Quick question, for the vim users in here, would you recommend https://bitbucket.org/kotarak/vimclojure for a setup?
21:25	hiredman	schaefer: can you not express what you want purely using core.logic?
21:25	brehaut	Fretsejaz1: not a vim user, but i think tim pope and cemerick have the current popular choice?
21:25	schaefer	would love to... here's what i'm trying to achieve: i want to use core logic to traverse a graph. i've got clojure functions to return the next and prev.
21:26	schaefer	for toy programs, i could express the graph using defrel and facts but that's not going to fly in production
21:26	hiredman	ah, so you need next and prev relations then
21:27	schaefer	yes
21:27	jcromartie	why the heck is file-seq not in clojure.java.io
21:27	hiredman	yeah, even dnolen isn't very keen on defrel and facts these days
21:27	jcromartie	:{ seems to be quite inextricably tied to java.io.File
21:27	schaefer	i was looking at using IUnifyTerms but that seems overkill for what i'm trying to do
21:27	hiredman	schaefer: have you looked at the internals of core.logic yet?
21:28	cemerick	Fretsejaz1: vim-fireplace is the current favorite AFAIK
21:28	schaefer	hiredman: heheh. yeah, i've looked but not groked :) if there is no straightforward answer, i'll spend more time studying the code
21:28	hiredman	schaefer: dnolen has given some talks here and there on the internals
21:29	schaefer	hiredman: thanks. i'll check those out
21:29	hiredman	a core.logic goal/relation is a function that returns a substitution
21:30	hiredman	so (core.logic/== x y) returns something like (fn [substitution] ....)
21:30	hiredman	I should say it takes a substitution and returns it if the goal succeeds
21:31	schaefer	ok. looks like i need to understand the substitution map data structure
21:36	mlb-	callen: okay, knowing they have different perfromance traits iswhat I didn't know. Also, no book. Just breifly going through tutorials as I can find them
21:37	jcromartie	mlb-: I can't blame you for the confusion
21:37	jcromartie	it is a little unclear why you'd ever choose a list
21:38	jcromartie	except when building code to be evaluated, as in a macro
21:38	schaefer	hiredman: fyi - turns out there are existing lvaro and nonlvaro goals (macros) which test whether an lvar is ground or not. hopefully, a clever combination of these and project will work
21:39	jcromartie	mlb-: conj'ing on the front combined with drop turns out to be a decent enough implemenation of a persistent stack structure
21:42	schaefer	yep, that was the trick: you have to use a lnonvaro in conjunction with project in order to ensure that the lvar is ground before passing it into the clojure fn
21:43	schaefer	i don't mind using project in this case since i have clojure functions for getting both successors and predecessors. i think this ensures the core.logic goal is relational
21:51	brehaut	apropos nothing at all, does anyone have a recommendation for browser based presentation stuff?
21:52	trinary	brehaut: make everything as big as possible: https://github.com/tmcw/big/
21:53	brehaut	sorry, i meant software
21:53	brehaut	unless that was a pun?
21:54	trinary	not really a pun, bit of a joke but that will let you get slides in a browser in a very simple way. :)
21:55	brehaut	right
21:56	trinary	do you mean things that do slide layout, timers, notes, and so on?
21:56	brehaut	yeah basic slide layout from a bunch of html
21:56	brehaut	timers i dont need so much but notes would potentially be nice
21:57	hiredman	I spent a good deal of the last conj playing with impress to make slides for my lightening talk that ended up being in a room without a projector
21:57	trinary	hah
21:58	xeqi	heh, but everyone still loved the robot
21:58	hiredman	I think the guy behind me got motion sickness watching the transitions
21:58	trinary	yeah impress.js lets you do a lot of crazy transforms prezi.com style, and I think has addons that do notes/layout helpers
21:58	hiredman	http://thelibraryofcongress.s3.amazonaws.com/conj2012-robot/index.html
21:58	trinary	nice
21:59	brehaut	hiredman: holy cats!
21:59	hiredman	like a michael bay movie
21:59	brehaut	haha
21:59	brehaut	its beachballed firefox
22:01	hiredman	:\|
22:01	trinary	https://github.com/bartaz/impress.js/wiki/Examples-and-demos links to things that help make/use impress slides
22:01	trinary	http://strut.io/ looks cool
22:01	brehaut	yeah thats a lot better in chrome
22:02	brehaut	how often does sun.misc.Unsafe end in tears
22:04	hiredman	hard to say, for me I have only ever used it hear, and it has worked out fine
22:05	hiredman	it means the only jni I needed for fiddling with pins directly in memory instead of via the fs is exposing a simplified mmap interface to java
22:05	brehaut	nice
22:40	axle_512	question for emacs users: Does anyone have something like a namespace browser within emacs?
22:41	axle_512	I suppose the autocompletion in an nrepl buffer is pretty close to a namespace browser
22:45	ToBeReplaced	is the right way to get the later of two datetimes (if (after? a b) a b)? ie, no "max" or comparable methods?
22:51	gfredericks	ToBeReplaced: this is a question about clj-time?
22:51	ToBeReplaced	and/or joda-time
22:54	gfredericks	,(max (java.util.Date. 7) (java.util.Date. 842))
22:54	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.util.Date cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
22:54	gfredericks	,(< (java.util.Date. 7) (java.util.Date. 842))
22:54	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.util.Date cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
22:54	gfredericks	,(compare (java.util.Date. 7) (java.util.Date. 842))
22:54	clojurebot	-1
22:54	ToBeReplaced	gotta use compare for Date
22:54	gfredericks	hm
22:54	gfredericks	presumably joda-time is similar
22:55	ToBeReplaced	joda-time has a .isAfter method on instants, and clj-time wraps that into an after? method, which you can use
22:56	ToBeReplaced	nothing wrong with what i typed above, it just felt like a common enough operation that i was expecting a shorthand
23:05	uvtc	Just noticed <https://github.com/clojure-emacs> today. Seems to be the new home for all things Clojure+Emacs. Nice.
23:15	futile	oh
23:26	futile	The paredit thread makes me sad.
23:26	futile	It's like trying to explain to a BASIC programmer how wonderful lambdas are.
23:27	futile	They take offense to it, and nobody wins.
23:27	technomancy	clojurebot: popcorn please
23:27	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
23:27	futile	Not that they aren't capable, in fact quite the opposite: they could learn it and love it if they just tried.
23:27	futile	They just have the mindset of "it's not for me" and that's stopping them from experiencing how great it is.
23:28	futile	fin.
23:29	axle_512	futile: I generally prefer paredit, but I do occasionally get myself into a jam where I can't fix things without turning it off for a minute.
23:29	axle_512	futlie: that's probably my own fault, and I just need to learn paredit a little better.
23:29	futile	axle_512: I've had that happen too, when I accidentally copy/paste a by lines rather than by s-expressions, etc.
23:29	axle_512	futle: yes, exactly
23:29	cgag	yeah that's a normal art of the process, occationally needing to turn it off
23:30	cgag	afaik
23:30	futile	But that's true of any tool. Sometimes it bites you because no tool is perfect.
23:30	futile	But this particular one is more true without paredit ;)
23:31	jcromartie	are there any really dumb Clojure text file template tools out there?
23:31	jcromartie	I just made one
23:31	jcromartie	it's real dumb
23:31	technomancy	clojurebot: paredit?
23:31	clojurebot	paredit is not for everyone, but what you need to understand ís how to become the kind of person that paredit ís for.
23:32	uvtc	hehe
23:32	technomancy	clojurebot: botsnack
23:32	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
23:32	axle_512	jcromartie: A template tool like YASnippet?
23:32	jcromartie	no, for arbitrary text files
23:32	jcromartie	static site generation
23:32	axle_512	I see
23:32	jcromartie	I saw misaki
23:33	futile	technomancy: http://bit.ly/13Uo4XJ
23:33	jcromartie	but there's nothing quite as simple as ERB
23:33	axle_512	jcromartie: clostache?
23:33	technomancy	futile: it's the truth
23:34	futile	technomancy: I know I just had that URL in my pasteboard and felt like it was a good opportunity
23:34	jcromartie	axle_512: I like it
23:35	axle_512	jcromartie: cool. Yes, I've used it a bit and I like it quite a bit.
23:35	jcromartie	axle_512: I'll see how this one I just rolled works out
23:35	jcromartie	I am not sure mustache is quite right
23:35	axle_512	jcromartie: is yours available on github?
23:35	jcromartie	not yet
23:35	jcromartie	it's just a namespace righ tnow
23:36	axle_512	ah ok
23:36	jcromartie	I need to work out the file generation part
23:36	jcromartie	I was looking at Jekyll but it seemed like they made a lot of decisions ahead of time like being blog-oriented
23:36	jcromartie	I could just build my site with Compojure and Hiccup
23:36	jcromartie	I guess
23:37	jcromartie	instead of trying to do it with static pages
23:37	jcromartie	but I like the idea of lightweight pre-rendered pages
23:37	jcromartie	I dunno, as long as I'm paying for Linode, might as well run Compojure
23:37	technomancy	jcromartie: the seajure website is a static html output thing
23:37	futile	I'm about to have a whole weekend with no family in the house. I need a biggish-sized side project to do.
23:38	futile	I'm leaning towards writing a Clojure IDE in Clojure.
23:38	futile	With minimal features, only the main ones I want.
23:38	technomancy	futile: why not nightcode?
23:38	futile	technomancy: not the same feature-set-priorities as me
23:38	futile	*as mine
23:39	futile	But I'll definitely use Seesaw.
23:41	jcromartie	technomancy
23:42	jcromartie	technomancy: looks like a good use of enlive
23:42	jcromartie	I guess that's kind of the point of enlive huh?
23:42	technomancy	well TBH it's 100% cargo culted
23:42	technomancy	but sure =)
23:44	callen	jcromartie: https://github.com/yogthos/Selmer
23:44	callen	futile: that already exists.
23:44	callen	futile: it's called Clooj.
23:45	technomancy	callen: and nightweb, and waterfront.
23:45	technomancy	*nightcode
23:47	futile	waterfront?
23:48	futile	hm
23:48	futile	looks old
23:48	technomancy	http://javadots.blogspot.com/2009/03/stroy-of-waterfront.html
23:48	technomancy	super old
23:48	futile	uses sf
23:48	futile	doesnt seem to hold same priorities as me
23:50	scottj	what are your priorities, other than a really basic editor, obviously?
23:51	futile	scottj: Sorry can't answer, I have a bad cold and need to sleep.
23:51	futile	Good night.
23:52	scottj	futile: sorry to hear that, hope you get better. gl
23:53	axle_512	hmm, he left with all that suspense
23:53	axle_512	that was cruel
23:53	axle_512	haha
23:55	axle_512	technomancy: what's special about seajure's site?
23:56	ToBeReplaced	i have [x y z] [[1 4 5] [2 7 8] [3 6 9]] are all monotonically increasing seqs ... i want a lazy-seq that takes the lowest element from the heads of x y z... thoughts?
23:56	axle_512	jcromartie: another interesting approach is to use something like angular.js instead of server-side template generation
23:56	ToBeReplaced	above would yield [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9]
23:58	technomancy	axle_512: nothing; just boring static HTML
23:58	axle_512	technomancy: ah, gotcha