#clojure – 2013-08-02

2013-08-02

00:04	mullr	I'm having trouble with lein-cljsbuild and crossovers and would greatly appreciate another pair of eyes of somebody has a moment. I'm trying to use a clojure library in clojurescript; I'm fairly certain it's all valid clojurescript code, but I've done something wrong with the macro setup. The code and error at hand is here: https://www.refheap.com/17097
00:06	tolstoy	mullr: Does the file end in .cljs?
00:06	mullr	My own source file does, yes.
00:08	amalloy	mullr: the/parsatron isn't a valid namespace name
00:08	amalloy	you mean the.parsatron
00:12	mullr	amalloy: right you are. Fixing that require gives me a whole mess of "undeclared Var" warnings. Even when using crossovers, do you need to separate the macros into another file?
00:13	amalloy	shrug
00:13	mullr	:) ok, thanks
01:09	clj_newb_2345	on a high level, in enlive, wahat is the relation of a snippet / a template ?
01:10	brehaut	clj_newb_2345: basically a template is a snippet that outputs a seq of strings, whereas a snippet returns a structured document fragment
02:22	futile	i half want to buy typednil.com
02:22	futile	because computer science is kind of idiotic sometimes
04:09	futile	which json lib is best?
04:10	supersym	i like cheshire
04:10	futile	ok
04:11	futile	tried data.json?
04:11	supersym	barely
04:11	supersym	havent needed it much
04:12	futile	ah
04:12	futile	thx
04:13	xsyn	I've also been using chesire
04:17	futile	this line takes a really long time: (use 'lamina.core 'aleph.tcp 'gloss.core)
04:17	futile	i spose nothing i can do about that
04:20	futile	just made my alert pop up from Clojure.. https://github.com/sdegutis/dotfiles/blob/master/home/zephyros/src/zephyros/core.clj
04:20	futile	yay
04:30	laurentpetit	Hello
04:46	supersym	bonjour
04:49	endou	supersym: Salut
05:28	laurentpetit	bien le bonjour :)
05:29	laurentpetit	clgv: hello
05:29	clgv	laurentpetit: good morning
05:29	clgv	laurentpetit: I tried the beta on wednesday evening
05:30	clgv	laurentpetit: the auto-identation when editing seemed fine in a 10min test. but the REPL behaved pretty weird
05:30	laurentpetit	clgv: it had some interesting bugs, hadn't it ? :-) I've fixed some more yesterday, as well as added support for "raise over" (alt + r)
05:30	laurentpetit	hmm
05:31	laurentpetit	clgv: maybe I haven't tested enough in the REPL. I've fixed issues with paredit commands interactions recently, maybe this helps
05:31	laurentpetit	clgv: what do you mean by "behaved pretty weird" ?
05:32	clgv	laurentpetit: when defining a function in REPL, I got the feedback output that the symbol is defined more than 10 times ...
05:32	jonasen	John Carmack discussing functional programming, haskell and lisp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PhArSujR_A#t=02m05s
05:32	jonasen	very interesting IMO
05:32	clgv	similarly for an exception in that case
05:32	laurentpetit	clgv: ?
05:33	clgv	laurentpetit: (defn f [x] (+ x x)) -> Output: #'user/f \n #'user/f \n #'user/f \n #'user/f \n #'user/f \n #'user/f \n #'user/f \n #'user/f \n #'user/f \n
05:33	laurentpetit	oh, real weird indeed :)
05:33	clgv	"\n" is only used to show newlines of the repl window
05:34	clgv	you updated the beta release?
05:34	clgv	I could check if it is still present
05:35	laurentpetit	yeah I updated late yesterday's evening
05:36	laurentpetit	clgv: I fixed a fair amount of issues, refactored the code base (more in paredit.clj, less in Eclipse), added unit tests, etc.
05:37	clgv	laurentpetit: is there a link for standalone versions of the beta releases?
05:38	laurentpetit	yeah
05:38	laurentpetit	each build creates an update site, and 5 standalone versions. You find the individual builds and update sites, per branch, per travis build, as such:
05:39	laurentpetit	http://updatesite.ccw-ide.org/branch/<branch-name>/<branch-name>-travis<padded-travis-build-number>-git<git-commit-sha1>/
05:39	laurentpetit	e.g. for the latest build, the update site is:
05:39	laurentpetit	http://updatesite.ccw-ide.org/branch/master/master-travis000120-git7f18a374a4a23e167295614c94fba12282186f3f/
05:40	laurentpetit	and you find the products in a subdirectory:
05:40	laurentpetit	http://updatesite.ccw-ide.org/branch/master/master-travis000120-git7f18a374a4a23e167295614c94fba12282186f3f/products/
05:41	laurentpetit	in the "beta" software update site, I then just use the existing "redirect" feature of eclipse software update sites which points to the several individual build-commit updatesites
05:41	laurentpetit	I have updated the "beta" software update site, look :
05:41	clgv	oh ok. I tried to navigate beta to find the standalone
05:41	laurentpetit	http://updatesite.ccw-ide.org/beta/compositeContent.xml
05:42	laurentpetit	"beta" update site is a "composite" update site: it references other update sites it is composed of
05:42	laurentpetit	same for stable
05:43	clgv	ok. so always checking for newest master then^^
05:43	laurentpetit	"beta" is only updated manually. So when you use beta, you only get what I've reviewed.
05:44	laurentpetit	If you want the bleeding edge from master, simply point to http://updatesite.ccw-ide.org/branch/master
05:44	laurentpetit	It's also a composite repository. Each new build of the master branch updates it with the latest build
05:44	laurentpetit	But I don't recommend following master. It may be broken. it's fully automated.
05:45	laurentpetit	I recommend beta
06:02	hyPiRion	hum.
06:02	hyPiRion	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshalling_(computer_science)
06:02	hyPiRion	[Marshalling] simplifies complex communication, using custom/complex objects to communicate instead of primitives.
06:10	ucb	allegedly, yes.
06:38	clgv	laurentpetit: oh the ccw products have no top level folder in the archive...
06:41	clgv	laurentpetit: ok. the REPL bug does not occur on the latest master product...
06:55	gavri	given a list, how do I find the most frequent element in it?
06:56	gavri	"frequencies" gives me a map mapping each unique element to its frequency in the list
06:56	gavri	but I'm at a loss for how to pick the key from this map that has the highest value
06:56	gavri	I mean, I could do it iteratively
06:56	gavri	but I'm trying to do it the clojure way
06:59	ucb	gavri: if it's a map you can use sort-by
06:59	ucb	,(doc sort-by)
06:59	clojurebot	"([keyfn coll] [keyfn comp coll]); Returns a sorted sequence of the items in coll, where the sort order is determined by comparing (keyfn item). If no comparator is supplied, uses compare. comparator must implement java.util.Comparator. If coll is a Java array, it will be modified. To avoid this, sort a copy of the array."
07:00	gavri	if I call min or max after the sort, would it skip the sort?
07:00	gavri	I guess I'm asking if clojure is lazy in this case
07:00	Anderkent	no need to sort it if you only need to extract the max value. Just do reduce-kv on the frequencies
07:01	gavri	thanks, Anderkent
07:01	ucb	reduce was going to be my next suggestion :)
07:03	Anderkent	actualyl it's a little less verbose with reduce than reduce-kv
07:03	Anderkent	&(reduce (fn find-most-frequent [[old-k old-v :as old] [k v :as new]] (if (> v old-v) new old)) (frequencies [:a :a :b :b :b :b :c :d :e :f]))
07:03	lazybot	⇒ [:b 4]
07:03	Anderkent	still a bit on the long side, but w/e :P
07:04	ucb	heh
07:04	Anderkent	(there's probably some composition of basic functions you could use instead of the (fn ..) but it's not coming to me right now
07:14	supersym	SLF4J: Class path contains multiple SLF4J bindings.
07:14	supersym	anyone know how I can fix that? log4j is driving me nuts
07:15	supersym	"The warning emitted by SLF4J is just that, a warning." no its not...it breaks my build :S
07:18	supersym	removal of log4j fixed it :P
07:22	gavri	thanks, Anderkent and ucb
07:22	ucb	yw
07:27	TEttinger	,(let [freqs (frequencies [:a :a :b :b :b :b :c :d :e :f])] ((max (keys freqs)) freqs)
07:28	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
07:28	TEttinger	,(let [freqs (frequencies [:a :a :b :b :b :b :c :d :e :f])] ((max (keys freqs)) freqs))
07:28	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.APersistentMap$KeySeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
07:28	TEttinger	hm
07:28	laurentpetit	clgv: yeah, sorry no top level, that's the way maven tycho does things. I also find it weird, and will definitely try again to fix this
07:29	laurentpetit	clgv: re. REPL bug : (whee)
07:29	hyPiRion	TEttinger: (max (keys freqs)) ?
07:29	clgv	laurentpetit: I hope the REPL bug is not specific to my home env. otherwise I need to clean that mess up^^
07:29	TEttinger	hyPiRion, I think I had keys and vals reversed
07:30	clgv	laurentpetit: back from lunch right now? ;)
07:30	hyPiRion	TEttinger: still, ##(max [1 2]) is not what you want :)
07:30	lazybot	⇒ [1 2]
07:31	hyPiRion	,(let [freqs (frequencies [:a :a :b :b :b :b :c :d :e :f])] (apply max-key val freqs))
07:31	clojurebot	[:b 4]
07:31	TEttinger	right thanks
07:31	iartarisi	does anyone know if it's possible to "mock" several interactions in the same expectation using the "expectations" library?
07:31	TEttinger	gavri: take a look at hyPiRion's implementation
07:32	laurentpetit	clgv: plain right :)
07:33	clgv	laurentpetit: in our departement we got to launch early at 11:30 ;)
07:33	laurentpetit	clgv: so, how does the autoshift feature look to you? "weird" ? "interesting"? "wouldn't have noticed"?
07:33	gavri	hyPiRion and TEttinger, thanks
07:33	hyPiRion	no problem
07:34	TEttinger	np
07:34	clgv	laurentpetit: I definitely noticed it. is it intended not to work with SHIFT+TAB?
07:35	clgv	laurentpetit: try SHIFT+TAB, TAB, SHIFT+TAB, TAB, ....
07:36	laurentpetit	clgv: the way I've "plugged" autoshift "misses" some editing commands
07:36	laurentpetit	eg it also does not notice suppr (as opposed to backspace) or Paste
07:37	laurentpetit	I'll have to improve that
07:37	clgv	ah ok. so that's a temporary limitation
07:38	laurentpetit	clgv: yeah
07:39	clgv	laurentpetit: another thought: I'd love to have something like seesaw for eclipse' SWT
07:39	clgv	laurentpetit: what about you?
07:39	laurentpetit	clgv: are you doing a lot of SWT / Eclipse based development?
07:39	laurentpetit	clgv: yeah, me too. I've even made some false starts in this area.
07:40	clgv	laurentpetit: no I tried a few dialogues but stayed with swing Swing+seesaw
07:41	clgv	laurentpetit: most of the time I build only small visualizations with some interaction for param selection or such...
07:42	laurentpetit	clgv: I've started an experimental swt support in the lein branch, which is used to display the "generic lein launcher" popup:
07:42	laurentpetit	https://github.com/laurentpetit/ccw/blob/lein/ccw.core/src/clj/ccw/util/swt.clj
07:43	laurentpetit	a thin clojure-like wrapper over FormLayout
07:43	gavri	trying to figure out how 'apply' works. it seems to work here like 'fold', but the documentation for apply makes it out to be a function that represents function application :-/
07:43	hyPiRion	gavri: (apply f x y z) is more or less like (f x y z)
07:44	clgv	laurentpetit: maybe we need a student project about extending seesaw semantics to swt - should be possible right?
07:44	laurentpetit	clgv: you create your widget tree with a mix of pure data structure representations and objects, then pass it to a function which will "reify" it into widgets
07:44	hyPiRion	gavri: wait no, I am just joking
07:44	hyPiRion	gavri: (apply f [x y z]) is more or less like (f x y z). (I forgot the list/vector)
07:45	gavri	like apply in JS then?
07:45	hyPiRion	almost, I believe
07:45	TEttinger	,(+ [1 2 3]) ; doesn't work
07:45	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: Cannot cast clojure.lang.PersistentVector to java.lang.Number>
07:45	hyPiRion	(apply f a [x y z]) => (f a x y z), (apply f a b c [x y z]) => (f a b c x y z)
07:45	TEttinger	,(apply + [1 2 3]) ; treats the sequence as args
07:45	clojurebot	6
07:45	laurentpetit	clgv: maybe we could directly jump to using core.async :)
07:45	gavri	k, got it
07:46	clgv	laurentpetit: hard context switch in this discussion? ;)
07:46	gavri	so the 'reduce' part is in max-key, I guess
07:46	jtoy	i have map with 28k keys in it , I then run dissoc on it with about 200 keys, it is taking 10 of minutes to complete, i know the map is kind of large, but still, shouldnt this be near instance as these are maps and not arrays?
07:48	gavri	got it. read up on max-key
07:48	gavri	thanks, everyone
07:49	gavri	just curious about why max-key only compares numbers as mentioned here http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/max-key
07:49	gavri	why couldn't it be a generic method that uses the 'less than' function?
07:50	gavri	generic function, I mean
07:51	gavri	also, another dumb question. why doesn't max-key accept a list instead of a variable list of arguments? is that the recommended way to create functions in clojure?
07:53	babilen	jtoy: running it on a transient might speed things up.
07:53	TEttinger	gavri: variable lists of arguments become a seq IIRC. like when you have (fn [& args] (str (first args) (second args)))
07:53	hyPiRion	gavri: well, that number may be derived from a comparator. As to why it's a variable list of arguments, I have no idea. It doesn't make much sense to me either.
07:54	babilen	jtoy: You would then, naturally, have to run dissoc!
07:55	hyPiRion	jtoy: I just checked it here, generating AND dissocing took less than 0.1 seconds.
07:55	TEttinger	gavri, the example here shows why it needs to be a number, and how you can still use max-key on things that aren't numbers. http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/max-key
07:56	TEttinger	it's (k x) that needs to be a number, not x, is the important thing
07:57	hyPiRion	,(let [m [{:foo "beta"} {:foo "gamma"} {:foo "alpha"}]] (apply max-key (comp comparator :foo) m))
07:57	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.core$comparator$fn__4295 cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
07:58	hyPiRion	oh dang. hurm.
07:58	jtoy	hyPiRion: I am narrowing down the specific piece of code , i havent done performance issues, not sure if there is a better way than hrowing in println everywhere
07:58	jtoy	yeah, the dissoc seems fine
07:59	TEttinger	hyPiRion, it seems that max-key doesn't use any 2-arg function
07:59	TEttinger	so compare wouldn't work
08:00	TEttinger	I mean, it's silly but
08:00	hyPiRion	TEttinger: yeah, I realized that. Just wondered how you'd get the maximal value based upon some comparator function
08:00	hyPiRion	(realized that in hindsight, mind you)
08:00	TEttinger	,(let [m [{:foo "beta"} {:foo "gamma"} {:foo "alpha"}]] (apply max-key #(read-string (str "36r"(:foo %))) m))
08:00	clojurebot	{:foo "gamma"}
08:01	TEttinger	that's a fluke for now
08:02	hyPiRion	It's not always possible, nor practical, to convert "elements" to numbers.
08:08	TEttinger	,(let [m [{:foo "beta"} {:foo "grammar"} {:foo "zalpha"}]] (apply max-key #(read-string (clojure.string/replace (format "36r%-10s" (:foo %)) " " "0")) m))
08:08	clojurebot	{:foo "zalpha"}
08:09	TEttinger	z is max, it goes first
08:09	TEttinger	,(let [m [{:foo "zeta"} {:foo "grammar"} {:foo "zalpha"}]] (apply max-key #(read-string (clojure.string/replace (format "36r%-10s" (:foo %)) " " "0")) m))
08:09	clojurebot	{:foo "zeta"}
08:09	TEttinger	ze goes before za nice
08:09	TEttinger	err
08:09	TEttinger	after, since this is max
08:10	TEttinger	this is the most hackish code I've written in a while
08:10	jtoy	hyPiRion: It seems the apply map is really slow, are there any quick things I can do to speed this up: (apply * (map #(- 1 (/ % all_klass_docs_count) ) (vals (apply dissoc big-hash-map documents))))
08:11	hyPiRion	jtoy: aha
08:11	hyPiRion	yeah, wrap % in a double
08:12	hyPiRion	you're generating very large fractions
08:12	TEttinger	(double %)
08:12	hyPiRion	,(reduce * (map / (range 1 30)))
08:12	clojurebot	1/8841761993739701954543616000000
08:12	hyPiRion	,(reduce * (map / (range 1 100)))
08:12	clojurebot	1/933262154439441526816992388562667004907159682643816214685929638952175999932299156089414639761565182862536979208272237582511852109168640000000000000000000000
08:12	hyPiRion	etc
08:12	TEttinger	,(reduce * (map / (range 1.0 100.0)))
08:13	clojurebot	1.071510288125466E-156
08:13	jtoy	ok, im testing that now
08:13	jtoy	wow, that makes it nearly instantaneuos
08:13	hyPiRion	it should be blazingly fast compared to the fractions
08:13	hyPiRion	yeah
08:13	TEttinger	hyPiRion, you're on fire today!
08:13	TEttinger	nice work
08:13	jtoy	hyPiRion: extremely appreciate it, had no idea how to deal with that
08:14	ro_st	gosh, what did i miss?
08:14	TEttinger	ro_st, hyPiRion solved a bunch of challenging problems people asked
08:14	ro_st	nice!
08:15	TEttinger	I wrote some code that sorts words...
08:15	ro_st	hey, so, what does everyone use in lieu of clojuredocs.org now that it's 2 versions old?
08:15	TEttinger	clojuredocs.org
08:15	hyPiRion	jtoy: no problem. I've been there myself with the fractions. They seem innocent at first, but they really turn nasty when multiplying.
08:15	TEttinger	it's still the best
08:15	ro_st	that's a pity. i wonder why it hasnt been updated?
08:15	jtoy	ro_st: tht annoys me, its because its comes on for 1st item on google
08:17	hyPiRion	The main problem is probably the fact that clojuredocs.org is... a Ruby on Rails project. Clojure developers prefer to contribute to Clojure projects, I guess.
08:17	TEttinger	https://github.com/zk/clojuredocs
08:17	hyPiRion	Also, speaking for myself, I don't know Ruby and don't currently have a need for it.
08:17	ro_st	:-o
08:18	hyPiRion	(I got Clojure!)
08:18	ro_st	didn't know that!
09:07	wink	I would suppose the amount of ruby/rails knowledge needed pales in comparison to the work/knowledge needed to get the content for 1.5 in there
09:08	wink	that said, I'd gladly help if we could field some plan how to update :) (i.e. find out what needs to be done first)
09:09	puredanger	There was a lot of discussion about it at last years conj but there is a fair bit of work to do apparently
09:10	puredanger	I cant remember the guy that was working on it but he pops up occasionally
09:11	puredanger	He has all the raw data and was working on whether and how to support multi versions
09:12	tbaldridge	puredanger: yeah I talked to him at the last conj...he works for sonian, I know some people who work there. I'll see if I can dig up his name
09:15	mdrogalis	Speaking of which, is there a timeline set for when the c
09:15	mdrogalis	Conj speakers get picked?*
09:15	puredanger	tbaldridge: Thx would like to be in touch with him
09:16	puredanger	mdrogalis: It is in work, not sure when it will be done
09:16	mdrogalis	puredanger: Ok :)
09:16	puredanger	Hoping soonish but everyone is busy
09:17	mdrogalis	Same problem everywhere. Vacation season.
09:18	puredanger	Btw, jira and confluence login are working again
09:19	mdrogalis	I wonder why the DNS change made it hiccup.
09:20	stuartsierra	Changed IP addresses and firewall rules on the auth server.
09:20	mdrogalis	That'll do it.
09:32	ToBeReplaced	tbaldridge: would you be willing to elaborate on the differences between rpc and data in the google group thread?
09:33	tbaldridge	ToBeReplaced: sure, give me a sec
09:35	logicalguy	Hi, anybody running clojure on a Gentoo machine?
09:35	ToBeReplaced	tbaldrige: at your leisure, of course -- i'm not sure i'm totally with you on what the better alternatives are to RPC, so i'd find it very helpful
09:36	wink	logicalguy: is there a problem? :)
09:36	logicalguy	clojure fails to emerge on my Gentoo machine because it cannot find a file named libcups.so.2
09:36	tbaldridge	ToBeReplaced: are you familiar with Joe Armstrong's thesis? (he's one of the creators of Erlang)
09:37	mdrogalis	tbaldridge & ToBeReplaced: Gooood paper. Worth multiple reads.
09:38	wink	logicalguy: hm, got no gentoo vm flyin round, but that's a bit odd
09:38	ToBeReplaced	yes
09:39	wink	logicalguy: short of a failed packaging I suppose you'd find better help in a gentoo channel, sounds like dependency problem (java) to me
09:39	logicalguy	I did a search on my second machine, there is a libcups.so.2 in /usr/lib32 which is part of the emul-linux-x86-baselibs package, and another one in /usr/lib64 which belongs to CUPS. I'm wondering which package I need to install?
09:40	ToBeReplaced	tbaldridge: mdrogalis: i wouldn't say that I fully grokked it, need to reread when i have many hours to spare
09:40	logicalguy	yes, maybe I should ask there, wink. Thanks.
09:41	mdrogalis	ToBeReplaced: Fortunately it's not as long as it looks, since the last 100 pages are references. :)
10:08	ToBeReplaced	tbaldridge: thanks :)
10:08	chrisrossi	I'm trying to understand some behavior with clojure.test.
10:09	chrisrossi	I have a test defined that uses with-redefs-fn to redefine a function that sleeps for timing purposes to be a noop during unit testing.
10:09	chrisrossi	What I'm observing is my test gets executed twice, once with the redefinition, once without.
10:09	chrisrossi	Deos this sound familiar to anyone?
10:09	chrisrossi	s/Deos/Does/
10:12	stuartsierra	chrisrossi: Are you calling one `deftest` function inside another?
10:12	chrisrossi	no.
10:13	stuartsierra	Then I have nothing, I'm afraid.
10:13	chrisrossi	actually, i do have this macro that i cargo culted that might be the culprit. with-private-fns
10:14	chrisrossi	i'll get rid of that and see if that fixes it.
10:16	chrisrossi	nope same behavior.
10:16	chrisrossi	Basic structure is:
10:17	chrisrossi	(with-redefs-fn ...
10:17	chrisrossi	(deftest ...
10:17	chrisrossi	(testing ...)))
10:17	stuartsierra	You can't wrap `deftest` like that.
10:18	chrisrossi	ah, ok.
10:18	chrisrossi	swap levels of with-redefs-fn and deftest then.
10:19	chrisrossi	well, only runs once now, but the redef doesn't work. ;)
10:27	chrisrossi	ok, figured that one out, too. with-redefs-fn takes a fn not a body. ;)
10:27	chrisrossi	thanks for the help.
10:29	mdrogalis	stuartsierra: Curious: Why is it invoked twice with an outter with-defs?
10:29	stuartsierra	mdrogalis: no idea
10:30	mdrogalis	:P
10:30	chrisrossi	undefined behavior is undefined.
10:30	stuartsierra	chrisrossi: There's a macro `with-redefs` that takes a body.
10:31	chrisrossi	ah, ok.
10:31	senorflor	(inc 41)
10:31	lazybot	⇒ 1
10:32	mdrogalis	Ahhh. I just had someone tell me that MongoDB is functional and Lispy because its represented as maps. Orthogonal is the word I'm looking to respond with, I think..
10:32	chrisrossi	hmm, with-redefs takes it back to not working again...
10:32	senorflor	foiled again.
10:43	ToBeReplaced	what is the advantage of using core.contracts' defconstrainedfn over a {:pre [] :post} map?
10:55	residentsummer1	hello
10:55	residentsummer1	who can tell me, what does this mean?
10:55	residentsummer1	CompilerException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (-1) passed to: db$eval3064$unhex, compiling:(sandbox/db.clj:65:9)
10:56	residentsummer1	how args number can be negative?!
10:56	residentsummer1	Yes, I'm messing with macros
10:56	Anderkent	residentsummer1: that's a bug in the compiler. I can explain how it happens, if you like, but basically you're not passing enough args to macroes
10:57	residentsummer1	I'll give you some definitions of my macros
10:57	Anderkent	I remember debugging it once before so if I can dig out my old chat logs I can find that
10:57	Anderkent	but basically
10:57	residentsummer1	(defmacro unhex [fs]
10:57	residentsummer1	`(apply-sqlfn :UNHEX ~hexable ~fs))
10:57	residentsummer1	(defmacro my-where [q spec]
10:57	residentsummer1	(let [unhexed (unhex spec)]
10:57	residentsummer1	(println unhexed)
10:57	residentsummer1	`(where ~q ~unhexed)))
10:58	residentsummer1	compiler complains about line with "let"
10:59	Anderkent	residentsummer1: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2013-05-31.html , ctrl+f 'ArityException'
10:59	residentsummer1	Thanks! I'll look into it
11:00	Anderkent	basically because of double macroexpansion the compiler is 'correcting' for the count of args to a macro twice
11:00	Anderkent	(correcting i.e. substracting 2 from actually provided, because each macro is provided 2 default args that are hidden from the programmer)
11:00	Anderkent	but because it does it twice instead of just once, it gives you -1 instead of 1
11:00	residentsummer1	uh-oh
11:00	residentsummer1	that's bad :(
11:01	Anderkent	it's just an error message bug
11:01	Anderkent	what's ~hexable in your code?
11:01	residentsummer1	it's vector of keys
11:02	residentsummer1	somewhere upper there is a "let" that defines it
11:03	Anderkent	right. Nesting defs in other structures is bad practice in general, you'd be better off doing (def :^private hexable [something]) or just taking it as arg. But I suppose that's unrelated
11:03	Anderkent	can you post your code to refheap so that I could run it locally and try to debug it?
11:04	residentsummer1	So, is it a bug in my code, or I just triggered incorrect behaviour of compiler?
11:04	residentsummer1	no probs
11:04	Anderkent	yeah, there is a bug, the bug in compiler is just in counting args for the error message
11:05	Anderkent	I'd expect the apply-sqlfn to be slightly wrong
11:06	residentsummer1	I guess it's totally wrong :) (that what i think, when I look at this macro)
11:10	residentsummer1	Anderkent: here it is https://www.refheap.com/17152
11:11	residentsummer1	Anderkent: there are some unrelated stuff, also (api- and db-keys)
11:13	futile	why does `lein run` say "No :main namespace specified in project.clj." when i have ":main foobar.core" in project.clj?
11:13	gworley3	i have a question that isn't clojure specific, but could apply to any functional programming language. as i get deeper into using clojure, i'm running into some limitation on my knowledge of functional design patterns since all the lisp programming i did was in college before i had experience as a software engineer. i have functions that all seem to receive the same several arguments to pass around "global" state. none of these values ch
11:13	gworley3	during execution, though, but are set at runtime. since it's annoying to have to go through and change every one of these functions when i need to add new variable to track in the "global" state, what's the usual way you guys would handle this to avoid having to constantly modify code just to pass around another variable that only a few functions actually need?
11:14	futile	gworley3: i would just (def) them at the top level of the file
11:14	futile	assuming all the fns are in one file
11:14	tolstoy	gworley3: Use a map instead?
11:14	futile	def'ing global state is appropriate for never-changing configs
11:14	futile	yeah, and put it in a map
11:15	gworley3	futile: that would work, except these are set based on user set values at start time
11:16	gworley3	tolstoy: so is it normal to pass around a map to all your functions for that purpose to keep track of state?
11:16	gworley3	i just want to try to follow the normal design pattern here rather than reinventing the wheel
11:16	tolstoy	gworley3: I think so. I do a lot of (defn make-state [] {:conn this :blah that})
11:17	futile	gworley3: you can change the def in your entry-point (main) function
11:17	futile	var-alter-root! or something
11:17	futile	,var-alter-root!
11:17	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: var-alter-root! in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:17	tolstoy	Then (defn some-fn [state param1 p2] (assoc state :blah (new val))).
11:17	futile	,(doc alter-root-var!)
11:17	clojurebot	excusez-moi
11:18	tolstoy	gworley3: I've seen that pattern in a lot of libs.
11:18	ystael	futile: it's alter-var-root! but often i use a ref or atom instead
11:18	racycle	gworley3: Check out this excellent talk by Stuart Sierra http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Clojure-Large-scale-patterns-techniques
11:18	gworley3	racycle: okay, will do
11:18	futile	ystael: that makes sense for data that will change, but for immutable data this seems better
11:18	futile	imo
11:19	futile	so, anyone know about this lein problem?
11:19	ystael	futile: paste your project.clj?
11:20	futile	https://www.refheap.com/17153
11:20	futile	re ystael
11:20	gworley3	tolstoy: futile: thanks. i think i'll take a crack at passing around a map to keep track of this state
11:21	tolstoy	gworley3: I think there's some semantics to the idea.
11:21	residentsummer1	futile: according to example project.clj
11:21	tolstoy	gworley3: For instance, with a database, you pass "the database" around as a param. (The fact that it's really a connection spec, or connection object, is just impl details.)
11:21	residentsummer1	futile:;; The -main function in this namespace will be run at launch
11:21	residentsummer1	;; (either via `lein run` or from an uberjar). It should be variadic:
11:21	residentsummer1	;;
11:21	residentsummer1	;; (ns my.service.runner
11:21	residentsummer1	;; (:gen-class))
11:21	residentsummer1	;;
11:21	residentsummer1	;; (defn -main
11:21	residentsummer1	;; "Application entry point"
11:21	residentsummer1	;; [& args]
11:21	residentsummer1	;; (comment Do app initialization here))
11:21	residentsummer1	:main my.service.runner
11:22	futile	WHOA
11:22	residentsummer1	futile: here is the link https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj
11:22	futile	i have zephyros.core namespace in src/zephyros/core.clj which has a -main function
11:22	futile	so i meet those criteria
11:22	residentsummer1	a lot of interesting stuff there
11:22	residentsummer1	hm
11:23	IamDrowsy	futile: are you sure you running lein inside the project folder?
11:23	ystael	futile: and - super dumb question - leiningen has the right idea about what your source path is?
11:23	tbaldridge	dnolen: ping
11:23	dnolen	tbaldridge: pong
11:23	futile	IamDrowsy: yes
11:23	futile	ystael: as long as it defaults to src/, yes
11:23	futile	its this: https://github.com/sdegutis/dotfiles/tree/master/home/zephyros
11:23	futile	im in that dir, and i run `lein run`
11:23	tbaldridge	dnolen: for this core.async bug with &env. Am I correct in assuming that you only test the existence of the key? Do you actually use the value?
11:24	residentsummer1	futile: and the last try, does adding :gen-class helps?
11:24	futile	oh now it works, but only if i add :main to project.clj
11:24	dnolen	well use the value in the sense of use the local in the expanded code
11:24	futile	thanks guys
11:24	futile	sweet i just controlled my mac windows using clojure
11:25	residentsummer1	futile: wow!
11:25	tbaldridge	dnolen: right, so in CLJ the value would be a instance of LocalVariable (or whatever class the compiler uses). Do you do anything with that value, or just assert that it exists in env?
11:25	residentsummer1	futile: how did you do that?
11:25	futile	residentsummer1: are you on mac?
11:25	residentsummer1	yep
11:25	futile	here:
11:25	futile	https://github.com/sdegutis/zephyros
11:25	futile	the version on HEAD is controlled via a small TCP language
11:26	futile	lang described here: https://github.com/sdegutis/zephyros/issues/14#issuecomment-21966253
11:26	futile	example app here: https://github.com/sdegutis/dotfiles/blob/master/home/zephyros/src/zephyros/core.clj
11:26	residentsummer1	now I use slate with home-made js config
11:26	futile	residentsummer1: oh, can you help me make a node.js client for zeph?
11:27	residentsummer1	thanks for that! I'll try it out!
11:27	futile	residentsummer1: the stable version of Zeph comes with built-in JS/CoffeeScript support, if you wanna try tat out
11:27	dnolen	tbaldridge: what do you mean by "do anything" ?
11:27	futile	*that
11:27	residentsummer1	I'm afraid I'm not a js guru, used it only because it was the only option :(
11:28	futile	residentsummer1: the latest stable version also has Ruby 2.0 support
11:28	futile	residentsummer1: and HEAD has preliminary Go (and soon Clojure) support
11:28	tbaldridge	dnolen: Well here's the deal, I can make (get &env 'x) return :a-value, but I can't really go and generate an instance of clojure.lang.Compiler.LocalBinding, is that going to be enough?
11:28	tbaldridge	I can make your example test pass, I just can't fully duplicate the behavior of the compiler.
11:29	residentsummer1	futile: from all the languages on the gh page I now python, js (a lil bit) and learning clojure
11:30	residentsummer1	oh, and lil lua, because of awesome-wm
11:31	futile	residentsummer1: ah then maybe you can help me port this to python :)
11:31	futile	residentsummer1: i was struggling to make a tcp client in twisted
11:31	futile	residentsummer1: if you're interested in helping (short or long term), feel free to come to #zephyros
11:33	residentsummer1	futile: ok, I'll can invest some spare time, cos i'm tired of cmd-tabbing :)
11:33	futile	:)
11:39	futile	How do you create a string from a sequence of Integers?
11:40	IamDrowsy	,(apply str [1 2 3 4 5])
11:40	clojurebot	"12345"
11:40	futile	Oh, I need to convert the ints to Character first
11:40	futile	oops :)
11:40	residentsummer	(clojure.string/join " " [1 2 3])
11:41	IamDrowsy	,(apply str (map char [97 98 99]))
11:41	clojurebot	"abc"
11:41	IamDrowsy	like this?
11:42	futile	IamDrowsy: yep
11:42	futile	that worked, thanks
11:42	IamDrowsy	np :)
11:42	futile	i had (apply str ...) at first, but wondering why it was just ints
11:42	futile	heh
11:42	futile	i think i need clojure.async now
11:42	futile	anyone have good experience with it?
11:43	bhauman	futile: what do you need it for?
11:43	bhauman	futile: sorry missed the earlier part of the convo
11:44	futile	to coordinate a background-thread listener with a foreground function call that needs to return a value fetched in the background
11:45	futile	in Ruby i used a queue
11:45	bhauman	yeah core.async will work.
11:45	futile	in Go i used a channel and a goroutine
11:45	zerokarmaleft	futile, IamDrowsy: reduce will be faster for large seqs
11:45	futile	zerokarmaleft: i dont have seqs longer than, say, 100 chars
11:45	zerokarmaleft	,(dotimes [i 4] (time (apply str (range 1e4))))
11:45	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 17.552416 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 4.039793 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 4.487624 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 10.171103 msecs"\n
11:45	futile	generally
11:45	mdrogalis	Aha. I understand core.async now. So cool. :D
11:45	zerokarmaleft	,(dotimes [i 4] (time (reduce str (range 1e4))))
11:45	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 297.796355 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 270.507669 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 262.986148 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 287.415497 msecs"\n
11:46	zerokarmaleft	er, hmm
11:46	futile	zerokarmaleft: lol
11:46	chrisrossi	so, if i use a potentially infinitely long lazy sequence as the body of a ring response, can i reasonably expect the server to "do the right thing" wrt memory?
11:46	timvishe`	did clojure.contrib.seq/positions go anywhere when contrib was deprecated?
11:47	futile	is clojure.lang.PersistentQueue thread-safe?
11:47	futile	if it blocks on reads and is thread-safe, it might be precisely what i need
11:48	tbaldridge	PersistentQueue is persistent
11:48	bhauman	futile: I think the answer to that is yes.
11:48	tbaldridge	adding to the queue creates a new queue
11:48	futile	oh right
11:48	futile	that makes sense
11:48	futile	working in ruby threw me off
11:49	tbaldridge	futile: take a look at Java's ConcurrentBlockingQueue. According to Rich "I didn't write my own queue, because the Java one is good enough, use it, it's good"
11:49	futile	:)
11:49	futile	thanks!
11:49	futile	never knew about ConcurrentBlockingQueue
11:49	futile	(clojure is my first experience with java)
11:49	tbaldridge	or look at core.async if you want more go-like stuff :-P
11:50	futile	meh, i can make do with BlockingQueue
11:50	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: Would it be obnoxious to open a dev thread or Jira ticket about the perception problem we discussed on Google? It does seem like a legitimate short coming of Clojure's transactions.
11:50	futile	plus core.async isnt ready yet
11:50	futile	according to readme :(
11:50	futile	plus i want few dependencies for this
11:50	mdrogalis	futile: It's pretty much ready.
11:50	mgaare	chrisrossi: what is the right thing in that case? arbitrarily truncate the seq?
11:50	bhauman	futile: and it's just plain fun
11:50	chrisrossi	not hold the already streamed out head in memory.
11:50	tbaldridge	futile: yeah, that's more just the old docs issue. The API is so small that if we change something it won't matter much.
11:51	futile	well hmm
11:51	futile	are there any tutorials on it?
11:51	futile	the readme has no code in it
11:51	futile	so im scared
11:51	futile	nor wiki
11:51	tbaldridge	mdrogalis: yeah, open it as a future request, or better yet, join the clojure-dev mailinglist and startup a topic.
11:51	bhauman	futile: there is a walk through
11:51	mdrogalis	futile: https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/examples/walkthrough.clj
11:51	futile	woot thanks
11:51	mdrogalis	I just did it. It's not so bad :)
11:51	futile	mdrogalis: thx
11:51	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: I'll do the former. ^^
11:52	futile	do chans have to be closed before they're garbage-collected?
11:52	futile	or can i just throw it away?
11:52	tbaldridge	just throw away.
11:52	futile	assuming the client is done with it
11:52	mdrogalis	Nope, GC will pick it off
11:52	futile	sweet
11:52	ToBeReplaced	nothing wrong with java.util.concurrent.LinkedBlockingQueue though... just gotta type-hint sometimes
11:52	mdrogalis	ToBeReplaced: You asked about core.contracts earlier. Still interested in that kind of thing?
11:52	ToBeReplaced	yeah sorry i got dc'd
11:52	bhauman	futile: I have a bunch of links to resources at the bottom of my post http://rigsomelight.com/2013/07/18/clojurescript-core-async-todos.html
11:53	futile	ok, thanks
11:53	tbaldridge	futile: agreed, it's a question of what you want to do with threads. A ton of cheap "blocking" threads, go with core.async. Just a queue to shove stuff into, use the Java classes
11:53	mdrogalis	ToBeReplaced: My replacement for that kind of thing. https://github.com/MichaelDrogalis/dire
11:53	ToBeReplaced	just saw the library; had been using pre/post maps
11:53	mgaare	chrisrossi: could always test it and see... make a handler that does (iterate inc 1) and see what happens
11:53	chrisrossi	yeah, i'll wind up testing. just wondering if anyone already knew the answer.
11:53	ToBeReplaced	man i'm in erlang land today aren't i?
11:54	futile	tbaldridge: i want to emulate this:
11:54	futile	https://github.com/sdegutis/zephyros/blob/master/libs/zephyros.rb#L20-L74
11:54	mdrogalis	Yeah I guess so, heh.
11:54	futile	the parts that touch @queues
11:54	mdrogalis	ToBeReplaced: It's very easy to use though.
11:55	tbaldridge	futile: yeah the JVM classes are fine for that. If you ever find yourself needing >50 threads or so, look at core.async
11:55	futile	thanks
11:57	mdrogalis	ToBeReplaced: In any case, the major shift is a complete decoupling of pre/post conditions from what they test. core.contracts & :pre/post don't do that.
11:59	mgaare	chrisrossi: I just glanced at the source, and it looks like that's something that would be determined by the underlying server. ring just passes the body as is without realizing it if it's a lazy seq
11:59	ToBeReplaced	mdrogalis: i don't understand what you mean
12:00	chrisrossi	mgaare: yeah, i figured that. there might some (unwritten) contract that server follows, though.
12:00	chrisrossi	or differences from one to the other.
12:00	racycle	bhauman: that blog post is awesome. Thanks for that link.
12:00	mdrogalis	ToBeReplaced: https://gist.github.com/MichaelDrogalis/6140936
12:00	bhauman	racycle: your welcome :)
12:01	mdrogalis	add-one knows absolutely nothing about its preconditions
12:02	ToBeReplaced	mdrogalis: oh, i see... what are the advantages of that? I feel like I want add-one to know about its preconditions
12:02	zerokarmaleft	futile: ah, apply str uses a StringBuilder internally, that explains the difference there
12:02	futile	zerokarmaleft: is that special-cased on the apply fn?
12:02	futile	that would seem dirty
12:03	mdrogalis	ToBeReplaced: Keep the logic away from the input validation. Additionally, you can move around those calls to with-preconditions! I regularly have dev and debug builds where I import those calls, but I leave them out in prod.
12:04	mdrogalis	I do the same with logging. Keep it off during my automated tests, standard out for dev, and log box for prod. You can do that when they're decoupled to that extent.
12:04	zerokarmaleft	futile: special-cased on str https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L514
12:04	futile	zerokarmaleft: thats ok then :)
12:05	zerokarmaleft	indeed
12:06	dnolen	tbaldridge: yes that will be enough, we just need to know if the symbol we have is in &env, note for CLJS (:locals &env)
12:07	mdrogalis	Ok, time to attend the end of a hackathon. See you guys later.
12:08	ToBeReplaced	mdrogalis: thanks
12:09	tbaldridge	dnolen: k thanks. I have a CLJ fix done, I'm working on the CLJS version now.
12:17	egghead	lesson learned: don't put work inside a go block
12:17	Anderkent	,(let [a (apply str (range 1e4))] (count a))
12:17	clojurebot	38890
12:18	residentsummer	guys, can anybody tell me, what's wrong with the last macro here https://www.refheap.com/17152?
12:18	egghead	is `thread` from core.async a suitable replacement for `future` ?
12:18	residentsummer	it gaves me ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (-1) passed to: db$eval3114$unhex
12:32	Anderkent	residentsummer: why are you doing unhex at compilation time? that definitely looks weird. don't you want (defmacro my-where [q s]ec) `(where ~q (unhex ~spec))) ?
12:42	konr	Is there an 'undef' functions that frees a symbol from its definition?
12:43	residentsummer	Anderkent: Seems that I've overcomplicated this
12:44	residentsummer	My initial thought was "if it's known what to transform at compile time, why not to do so?"
12:45	justin_smith	residentsummer: with what you were doing, it was being transformed at the moment the macro was defined
12:45	justin_smith	the input does not exist yet
12:45	residentsummer	ah...
12:45	Anderkent	konr: ns-unmap or something like that
12:46	justin_smith	inside `() it is defined at the time of macro invocation - which is likely compile time
12:46	konr	Anderkent: thanks!
12:46	residentsummer	am I right, thinking that outer macros are processed first?
12:47	residentsummer	so I wanted to get output of #'unhex before supplying it to where (because it's a macro, too)
12:50	justin_smith	residentsummer: https://www.refheap.com/17158
12:50	justin_smith	that demonstrates the order
12:51	residentsummer	justin_smith: So, I was right on that
12:52	justin_smith	yeah
12:52	Anderkent	residentsummer: then you need to do something like `(let [unhexed# (unhex stuff)] (where ...))
12:52	Anderkent	but the unhexing should still happen within the 1
12:52	Anderkent	*`
12:53	justin_smith	unless unhex generates the code to be executed (which of course it doesn't)
12:57	residentsummer	Anderkent: i'll try your suggestion
13:08	seangrove	Is there a way to nrepl-jack-in using the lein production profile?
13:09	technomancy	seangrove: no, but there's an open ticket discussing it
13:10	seangrove	Thanks technomancy
13:10	technomancy	np. you can always start a repl session and M-x nrepl into it
13:12	poppingtonic	.join #eff
13:12	poppingtonic	sorry
13:16	residentsummer	Anderkent: it's not quite what I'm trying to get… But enough of that for today
13:16	residentsummer	Thanks everyone
13:21	cemerick	seangrove: at that point, it's probably simpler to just have your app start an nREPL endpoint itself, and connect to it
13:36	gtrak	anyone know of any pre-existing ring/compojure 'forward' middleware?
13:36	mgaare	gtrak: forward as in redirect?
13:37	gtrak	redirect, without the redirect, change the request, run it back through the handler
13:37	justin_smith	gtrak: just have a branch in the request handler that recurs?
13:38	gtrak	yes.. just wondering if there's a pre-built solution, aware of compojure contexts and such :-)
13:38	mgaare	I'm not aware of an extant middleware to do that
13:39	justin_smith	or put the forwarding request rewriter at the top of the handler, and that's done (unless a forward should in turn be able to forward)
13:39	mgaare	actually it'd be a little tricky to write this as a middleware
13:40	justin_smith	mgaare: if it took the handler itself as an arg I don't think it would be tricky at all
13:40	gtrak	hopefully one forward is enough :-)
13:40	mgaare	or rather the usage would be tricky, because you'd need to have it pretty much at the top of the stack.
13:41	mgaare	justin_smith: the tricky part of it is that it could have unfortunate interactions with other middlwares. wrap-params reads the request body, which is mutable and can only be read once
13:41	futile	is there such a thing as a queue where push/pop work per key (like a Map)?
13:41	futile	and where q.pop(1) wont block q.pop(2)?
13:42	justin_smith	futile: a map where every val is a queue?
13:42	futile	thats what i have right now
13:42	futile	but it means i have to remove the queue from the map when im done with it
13:46	dnolen	tbaldridge: did you see this? http://hueypetersen.com/posts/2013/08/02/the-state-machines-of-core-async/
13:50	futile	wat!?
13:50	clojurebot	For Jswat: start clojure with -Xdebug -Xrunjdwp:transport=dt_socket,server=y,suspend=n,address=8888
13:51	futile	its august already?
13:51	futile	i thought it was may or june
13:58	tbaldridge	dnolen: just read it, spot on!
14:00	soulman	anyone familiar with xml zipping?
14:02	soulman	I want to process an eclipse .classpath file but (zx/xml-> zipper :classpath) just returns an empty list
14:03	soulman	classpath is the root element in the .classpath file
14:04	soulman	(zx/xml-> zipper) returns the content BTW
14:06	squidz	i have a mysqlservice which returns json from a database query with php. What would be the easiest way to get my service to return EDN instead of json
14:07	justin_smith	squidz: if you want the php layer to remain, cheshire, if you want to replace it, clojure.java.jdbc
14:08	justin_smith	if you want to replace the mysql - datomic :)
14:08	scape	hah
14:09	rainerschuster	:D
14:09	squidz	I can't replace the mysql unfortunately. So you are suggesting converting the json to edn? Isn\t there a way with php to send edn instead of json?
14:10	wei	how would you write this function, update-vec? https://gist.github.com/yayitswei/6141890
14:10	justin_smith	squidz: a quick google finds this https://github.com/igorw/edn/blob/master/src/encoder.php
14:10	scape	why not use json?
14:11	hiredman	wei: gross, use a map
14:12	justin_smith	wei: I would use (group-by :id args)
14:14	wei	for various reasons i need it in vector format. so convert to map using group-by, then convert back?
14:14	justin_smith	that would be the easy way I think
14:14	wei	cool, thanks
14:14	hiredman	wei: you almost certainly don't need it in a vector format
14:14	hiredman	don't convert that is just gross
14:15	hiredman	when you have associative data, and do associative operations, why would you structure the data to fight against that?
14:15	wei	i'm displaying it as a list
14:15	jcrossley3	soulman: try xml1->
14:16	hiredman	wei: so?
14:16	kmicu	so?
14:17	wei	good point, i'll consider it
14:17	squidz	justin_smith: I am using clojurescript. I don't believe I can use chesire with it right?
14:18	justin_smith	squidz: hmm - not sure
14:19	justin_smith	if you are in clojurescript using json via interop should be very easy, no?
14:20	clj_newb_2345	anyone know of a good set of minimalist css style foiels for showing source code? (I'm outputing stuff with enlive, but want a good css style sheet for the source code)
14:23	juhu_chapa	Hi guys!
14:25	chronno	juhu_chapa: Hi!
14:27	juhu_chapa	How would be a macro that returns: (. Integer valueOf "42") when called with: (int-macro Integer valueOf "42")
14:27	juhu_chapa	?
14:29	justin_smith	(defmacro int-macro [& args] `(. ~@args)) would trivially match your case
14:30	juhu_chapa	justin_smith: really nice, i am just learning macros. thank you!
14:30	juhu_chapa	chronno: Hi!
14:31	seangrove	squidz: Just use goog.json/parse and friends
14:32	justin_smith	juhu_chapa: I don't know if that is really what you want, it just happens to expand to what you want for the example input
14:34	seangrove	justin_smith is a constraint-based reverse-lookup table for function/macros definitions
14:34	justin_smith	I would see (defmacro int-macro [& args] `(. Integer ~@args)) being slightly more useful, then the call would look like (int-macro valueOf "42")
14:34	justin_smith	seangrove: lol
14:35	juhu_chapa	justin_smith: how now would be the macro when: (int-macro Integer (valueOf "0") (valueOf "1")) -> (. Integer valueOf "0") (. Integer valueOf "1")?
14:36	seangrove	juhu_chapa: What are you trying to do?
14:38	justin_smith	juhu_chapa: echoing seangrove's question, and that has a completely different structure from the other input, so it needs a different macro (or function) to process it
14:40	kohyama	wei: I commented your gist.
14:44	juhu_chapa	seangrove: I am trying to write apache camel java dsl in clojure. for example: (from "uri") (to "uri) written in clojure would be (. this (from "uri)) (. this (to "uri"))
14:44	juhu_chapa	I think the task would be easier with macros
14:45	hiredman	juhu_chapa: I think you would be better descibing the pipeline as a datastructure, and have a function that takes the datastructure and does all the method calling
14:46	justin_smith	(inc hiredman)
14:46	lazybot	⇒ 22
14:47	dnolen	jonasen: ping
14:47	wei	(inc hiredman)
14:47	lazybot	⇒ 23
14:47	wei	(inc justin_smith)
14:47	lazybot	⇒ 5
14:48	juhu_chapa	hiredman: (inc :all)
14:48	konr	is EDN pronounced 'Eden' or 'Ee Dee Ann'?
14:49	matthavener	konr: eden
14:49	technomancy	I pronounce it like "edna" but withaut the A
14:50	stuartsierra	I pronounce it "Gladys."
14:54	gdev	I need some examples of edn in action
14:54	gdev	For some reason that isn't part of the documentation
14:55	Raynes	I pronounce it Jennifer.
14:55	hiredman	it is a serialized data format, there is no action
14:55	hiredman	like, all you can do is read it or write it
14:56	gdev	hiredman, gotcha thanks
15:00	gfredericks	hiredman just wrote a very short "EDN In Action"
15:01	hiredman	EDN Inaction
15:02	gdev	snark as a service
15:04	pjstadig	snarka sas er vice
15:05	rasmusto	pjstadig: sounds like my job description
15:10	DomKM	In ClojureScript, is it possible to define a protocol in terms of another protocol? For example, I'd like to create a protocol that can be satisfied by implementing function-foo AND satisfying the IFn protocol.
15:13	dnolen	DomKM: it's not possible in ClojureScript or Clojure
15:16	DomKM	dnolen: Oh well, thanks for answering. Is there a standard way of dealing with something like that? Or, is there a way to create an object that implements a protocol and delegates all methods not belonging to that protocol to another object?
15:17	MacCoaster	hi guys, I'm trying to parse some xml that was input from a POST using Noir, but i keep getting MalformedURLException
15:17	MacCoaster	i've even tried to do url-decode
15:17	MacCoaster	but doesnt seem to work
15:18	MacCoaster	am i doing it wrong by simply doing (xml/parse xmlstring)
15:18	dnolen	DomKM: you can do delegation easily with protocols, just compose
15:18	bhauman	DomKM: I normally just forward the calls
15:19	dnolen	DomKM: instance A can't handle protocol P0, but protocol P0 has a default case asking if A has something which can handle protocol P0, and it calls that instead.
15:19	MacCoaster	oh the string argument is an URI
15:19	MacCoaster	i can't read, nevermind
15:19	dnolen	DomKM: so this means that A must at least implement the ability to provide something that can handle P0
15:20	DomKM	dnolen: Even if you don't know the specific methods in advance? The use case is creating a function that takes an object and a function and returns an object that implements IFn and invokes the supplied function but delegates all other calls to the object.
15:26	troydl	Howdy. Is there a way to break elements out of a list to use each element as a separate argument to another function? In order to do something like this (average (range 5))
15:26	ystael	troydl: you mean 'apply' ?
15:26	futile	troydl: like this?
15:26	futile	,(reduce + (range 5))
15:26	clojurebot	10
15:27	futile	no hold on thats not it.
15:27	futile	troydl: what are you trying to do?
15:28	troydl	Well I was just messing around in a clojure book playing with the & extra argument for functions and I was wondering if I could pass in a list of args somehow
15:29	futile	troydl: yes, apply.
15:29	troydl	Essentially, break the elements out of a list all at once
15:29	futile	,(apply max [1 2 3])
15:29	clojurebot	3
15:29	dnolen	DomKM: ok, yeah you can't do that elegantly yet - we need a proposal called specify to be implemented first. no need for protocol on protocols to do that.
15:29	futile	,(max 1 2 3)
15:29	clojurebot	3
15:29	futile	troydl: see those two examples.
15:29	troydl	Oh, nice
15:29	mgaare	apply is a massively useful function ;)
15:29	futile	yes
15:29	troydl	Perfect, thank you
15:30	DomKM	dnolen: Ah, okay. Yeah I saw the specify discussion ClojureScript confluence site but didn't entirely understand it.
15:30	DomKM	dnolen: Thanks for your help.
15:31	dnolen	DomKM: IFn is more or less an illusion, if you want instances to work as fns in that way set! call and apply properties on the thing you have.
15:31	dnolen	DomKM: this is in fact how specify! will probably work, specify would require that the object be cloneable
15:37	jonasen	dnolen: pong
15:37	dnolen	jonasen: re inst ticket, so I'm not totally following your comments on the ticket. did you or did you not fix the tests?
15:39	jonasen	dnolen: for CLJS-454? No I did not. but I think they're buggy
15:39	upwardindex	I've seen people exclude the clojure of their dependencies in their leon file, why do people do that?
15:40	dnolen	jonasen: so I don't understand how they are buggy because I didn't find your comments particularly clear
15:40	jonasen	they don't follow the #inst spec
15:40	dnolen	jonasen: so are the core_test.cljs tests good and the reader ones buggy?
15:40	dnolen	or the other way around?
15:41	jonasen	the reader_tests are bad. Because they don't follow the spec
15:41	dnolen	jonasen: and they don't follow the spec ... because of how they handle padding?
15:41	jonasen	At least the clojure reader can't read the generated data
15:41	DomKM	dnolen: Oh, interesting. I'll look into that. Thanks.
15:41	jonasen	,#inst "2007-1-1"
15:41	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unrecognized date/time syntax: 2007-1-1>
15:42	dnolen	jonasen: but what is buggy about the tests? how it generates the strings?
15:42	jonasen	the clojure reader requires #inst "2007-01-01"
15:42	dnolen	jonasen: does the reader need to be fixed? do the tests need to be fixed?
15:43	jonasen	dnolen: yes, and If you fix that then they are exactly the same as in core_tests. All 7000 of them
15:43	jonasen	the tests needs fixing. (But that's not really what the original issue is about)
15:44	dnolen	jonasen: I don't see how those tests are the same ... one tests the client side reader, the other date printing
15:44	dnolen	core_tests.cljs = date printing test, core_reader.cljs = date reading test
15:45	jonasen	dnolen: ah, sorry. You're correct
15:45	dnolen	jonasen: ok, this why I didn't understand anything you were saying on the ticket :)
15:45	jonasen	but the reader_tests still need fixing
15:45	jonasen	dnolen: heh
15:45	dnolen	jonasen: sure, if those get fixed I'll review the patch more closely and apply.
15:46	jonasen	I'll fix the tests then.
15:46	dnolen	jonasen: thx
15:46	upwardindex	What happens if I have more than one version of clojure in my dependencies tree?
15:46	jonasen	dnolen: sorry for the confusion
15:48	xeqi	upwardindex: it chooses the version with the least depth in the tree, provided none of the dependencies use a version range
15:48	xeqi	do you have a link to a project.clj that excludes clojure?
15:54	jonasen	dnolen: It's pretty easy to speed up the reader with ~30% by optimizing the StringPushbackReader. Would you accept such a patch?
15:54	jonasen	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/cljs/reader.cljs#L18
15:55	dnolen	jonasen: that would be awesome, though separate enhancement ticket + patch please
15:55	jonasen	dnolen: ok
15:56	dnolen	jonasen: are you thinking about just switching to ^:mutable fields?
15:56	jonasen	dnolen: and js array for the buffer
15:56	dnolen	jonasen: excellent
15:57	jonasen	dnolen: https://www.refheap.com/17161
15:58	upwardindex	xeqi: ok so nothing bad happens, yes i've seen many projects excluding the clojure of their dependencies but can't figure out why
15:58	rebcabin	'(take 3 (range 3 9 0))
15:59	dnolen	jonasen: nice, though, small nit, just use alength
15:59	rebcabin	funny that unit tests in clojure source show this as returning '(3 3 3)
15:59	jonasen	dnolen: ok
16:00	rebcabin	line 951 of https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/test/clojure/test_clojure/sequences.clj
16:00	LauJensen	Good evening. I've used Tomcat for a while to host a few servlet apps and Im looking for an alternative which easily lets me host several webapps on the same java instance. Any suggestions?
16:00	rebcabin	but my implementation definitely returns ()
16:00	rebcabin	as does try-clojure
16:03	gfredericks	,(take 3 (range 3 9 0))
16:03	clojurebot	()
16:04	gfredericks	rebcabin: what unit tests have (3 3 3)?
16:06	modern_major_gen	I have a Hiccup question in clojure... I'm trying to embed an image in an e-mail, I was generating the html like this
16:06	modern_major_gen	(hiccup/html [:html
16:06	modern_major_gen	[:body
16:06	modern_major_gen	[:h2 "Title"]
16:06	modern_major_gen	[:img {:src (str "data:image/jpg;base64," chartstr)}]
16:06	modern_major_gen	]])
16:06	rebcabin	I wonder how builds pass when unit tests require (take 3 (range 3 9 0)) to produce '(3 3 3) but the implementation produces ()?
16:06	modern_major_gen	this seems to work great except I get <html><body><h2>Aggregate Ratings</h2><img src=\"..
16:06	rebcabin	,(take 3 (range 9 3 0))
16:06	clojurebot	(9 9 9)
16:06	modern_major_gen	i.e. the img tag has the " escaped out
16:06	rebcabin	works in the other direction :)
16:07	rebcabin	I guess the co-range operator works :-P
16:07	SegFaultAX	modern_major_gen: Y u post in channel?
16:07	modern_major_gen	I'm sorry I thought this was a channel for clojure help, my aplogies SegFaultAX
16:08	SegFaultAX	modern_major_gen: It is, but gist multiline paste.
16:08	hiredman	rebcabin: the head of master can have different behavior from clojure releases that tend to be months older than the head of master
16:08	SegFaultAX	Oh, post. I meant paste
16:08	SegFaultAX	:)
16:08	rebcabin	hiredman: I see!
16:09	rebcabin	hiredman: good show then
16:09	hiredman	rebcabin: check the source for your specific version, and check out and build master and check the behavior there
16:09	rebcabin	yes, will do .. all is clear now
16:10	tsantos	Anyone have a clue why goog.ui evaluates as nil in the ClojureScript REPL? goog.dom evaluates to an object but not goog.ui.
16:10	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/950487fa67243271d522b389d6ea1aad70429474
16:12	modern_major_gen	hiccup/clojure problem I'm stuck on https://gist.github.com/philipsdoctor/6142922 any input greatly appreciated
16:13	dnolen	tsantos: goog.ui isn't really a namespace with anything (functions) in it
16:14	dnolen	tsantos: you have to require a specific class
16:14	tsantos	dnolen: anything in goog.ui fails, like goog.ui.Select
16:14	dnolen	tsantos: what does you require look like?
16:16	tsantos	dnolen: [goog.ui :as gui]
16:16	dnolen	tsantos: yes that won't work
16:17	dnolen	tsantos: goog.ui only provides classes not real namespaces and you can't alias
16:17	dnolen	tsantos: we do have :import, sadly it doesn't quite follow the Clojure import syntax, would like a patch for that if possible.
16:18	tsantos	dnolen: so what's the prescribed way to reference classes in goog.ui?
16:18	noncom	i know that the question may be strange, but i find myself repeatedly coming back to it: why is it when I create a new Leiningen project, the default ns is called "core"? Usually I feel that it is one of the fartherst nss which I may call "core" in my app?
16:18	dnolen	tsantos: (:require [goog.ui.Foo]), or (:import goog.ui.Foo)
16:19	tsantos	dnolen: ah! thanks.
16:19	noncom	i mean, it could be "main" or something, but rarely it is a core for the app
16:20	arohner	didn't the compiler used to check for invalid arity on function calls? why did that go away?
16:21	arohner	,(fn [] (map))
16:21	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval29$fn__30 sandbox$eval29$fn__30@d29790>
16:21	tbaldridge	,(map)
16:21	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$map>
16:21	arohner	&(fn [] (map))
16:21	lazybot	⇒ #<sandbox11278$eval63597$fn__63598 sandbox11278$eval63597$fn__63598@e785d7>
16:25	arohner	, (fn [] (map))
16:25	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval173$fn__174 sandbox$eval173$fn__174@147e8ed>
16:25	arohner	didn't the compiler used to throw on invalid arity for that? Why did that change?
16:26	tbaldridge	no, it's always been throw on dispatch
16:26	tbaldridge	,(fn [] (:foo))
16:26	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval203$fn__204 sandbox$eval203$fn__204@11f8255>
16:27	bbloom	cljs does have some arity warnings
16:28	arohner	I've shipped a few bugs to production because of that recently. What are my options for improving that?
16:29	tbaldridge	better tests?
16:29	noncom	arohner: (map) in (fn [] (map)) is not evaluated until runtime. for options i would take tests.
16:29	noncom	or automated code analysis (if you want an additional game)
16:29	maharj	why does the compilation of clojure code end with Caused by: java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.RT.mapUniqueKeys([Ljava/lang/Object;)Lclojure/lang/IPersistentMap;
16:29	maharj	It does not tell you anything :)
16:30	noncom	maharj: what is you IDE?
16:30	arohner	tbaldridge: I run circleci.com :-). I have tests, but not everything is easy to test, and this is something that could be automated
16:30	maharj	If I do lein compile it's fine
16:30	maharj	noncom: I'm using vimclojure
16:31	arohner	I use typed clojure for some parts of our codebase, but it's somewhat heavyweight for existing code
16:31	noncom	maharj: well, never used vim.. but in counterclockwise there is a button which can show more details on an exception if they are available (the stack trace i mean)
16:31	maharj	yeah, I'm getting the stack trace
16:31	technomancy	maharj: usually that comes from AOT'd class files that were compiled using an old clojure version
16:31	maharj	but it does not tell me anything that's reasonable
16:32	maharj	technomancy: okay.. do I need to specify the clojure version "1.5.1" in somewhere else than project.clj?
16:33	technomancy	maharj: you should, but whether that will fix the problem depends on where the bad .class files are coming from
16:33	noncom	arohner: funny with tests, yeah :D i think that you could write a library which would check for such errors on startup (or when run on a file-structure of a project)
16:33	maharj	technomancy: is there a way to tell?
16:33	maharj	this occurs just one in a while
16:34	arohner	noncom: k. I'm going to play with tools.analyzer, see what I can do
16:34	maharj	normally when I screw things up somehow (parens, invalid macrodefs etc..)
16:34	jonasen	dnolen: added CLJS-454-patch2.diff which fixes the tests. I'll create the reader perf ticket+patch tomorrow.
16:34	dnolen	jonasen: thx!
16:34	technomancy	maharj: you can check all the clojure jar files on `lein classpath` for .class files; if there are some then it might not be your fault but a problem with dependencies
16:34	technomancy	maharj: if it's correlated with compiler exceptions it's probably a vimclojure bug
16:35	noncom	arohner: maybe you will even become a hero who introduced a code-editing-time checks for clojure code correctness :)
16:36	maharj	technomancy: Okay. Sounds fair. So basically I'd need to switch to Fireplace or something that is actively developed?
16:37	technomancy	maharj: you'd have to ask someone more familiar with vim; sorry
16:37	maharj	I just got back to Clojure so I've not yet up to speed with the current development tools...
16:37	technomancy	but fireplace is probably a good idea anyway
16:38	maharj	yeah, I know vim isn't exactly the tool of the trade in lisp circles, but I gave up emacs 10 years ago for vim and I'm not in the mood to switch back again :)
16:38	technomancy	nothing[1] wrong with vim
16:38	technomancy	[1] - except vimscript
16:38	maharj	yeah, you can say that again...
16:38	technomancy	I probably will
16:38	technomancy	=)
16:38	maharj	:)
16:39	maharj	But thanks, So I'll be shaving the Yak once again for a couple of days :D
16:39	maharj	It was just like Haskell.. I wanted to do something with it and wound up doing updates for a whole evening... and then never got back to it :D
16:40	maharj	That's why I think it would be a good idea to decide already what I want to do... but there are so many problems in the world and so many suitable tools.
16:45	lenovo`	hello
16:53	stuartsierra1	Is Tim McCormack here?
16:54	stuartsierra1	How about Andy Fingerhut or John Stoneham?
16:55	stuartsierra1	I just pushed fixes for DJSON-9 and DJSON-11, wanted to know if they fix the reported problems.
16:56	wei	is there a clojure/clojurescript version of @the_string.html_safe? basically changing newlines to <br> but escaping out html entities
16:59	gfredericks	TimMc: ping ^
17:00	noncom	wei: idk but why not use the native one?
17:02	wei	what's the native one? the example I gave was from Rails
17:15	clj_newb_2345	is there a way to put a span element into a :content field in css? (context: I'm trying to figure out how numbered lines of code works; I have a clss which I'm using ":before" on to insert the line number. However, I want to insert more than just plain text. I would like to insert an actual span element.
17:15	clj_newb_2345	thus, I want a :content field to conttain a span element. Unfortunately, it's displaying the HTML code rather than interpreting it and generaring a span element
17:16	TimMc	stuartsierra1: Surprisingly, yes.
17:17	TimMc	My shell server is down, but you caught me online.
17:17	stuartsierra1	:)
17:17	clj_newb_2345	hmm
17:17	clj_newb_2345	wrong channel
17:17	clj_newb_2345	this is not #css
17:17	stuartsierra1	TimMc: Does this solve your reported problem in DJSON-9: https://github.com/clojure/data.json/commit/64f7d311bb5e8a5a6032ad071c675b4c257dc3fc
17:18	technomancy	TooManyFerengiException
17:18	stuartsierra1	technomancy: That would be vastly more interesting.
17:18	pjstadig	technomancy: i would patch that issue
17:22	TimMc	stuartsierra1: I think that fixes it, yes. Can't check right now, but the included test looks good. Why "separator", though?
17:22	stuartsierra1	TimMc: Didn't know what else to call it.
17:22	stuartsierra1	"special-separators" seemed too long.
17:23	stuartsierra1	And the characters in question are "\u2028 - Line separator" and "\u2029 - Paragraph separator."
17:25	TimMc	:tricky-little-bastards
17:25	stuartsierra1	heh
17:25	ztellman	core.async question: put! throws on a closed channel, but >! doesn't appear to; is this intentional?
17:25	stuartsierra1	:those-things
17:27	TimMc	Huh, my description on DJSON-9 looks like it is missing a couple characters near "viz".
17:27	TimMc	I wonder if that's a typo or a markup problem.
17:28	stuartsierra1	JIRAAAAA!
17:30	ztellman	dnolen bbloom, if you're around, can I pick your brains re: core.async?
17:30	TimMc	Something like :js-eval-compat for the option and :js-compat-escape for the character "class". But it's not really important, since it's a default no one needs to worry about.
17:31	TimMc	..and it's documented. ♥
17:31	stuartsierra1	I'll think about alternate names, maybe something with "js" in it would be good.
17:32	stuartsierra1	TimMc: By the way, did you actually encounter this bug or is the patch meant to be preventative?
17:34	TimMc	stuartsierra1: Actually encountered it.
17:34	stuartsierra1	ok
17:35	stuartsierra1	wow
17:35	stuartsierra1	Who's evil enough to insert U+2028 into a string?
17:35	TimMc	It's not really a bug in DJSON, of course.
17:36	TimMc	Someone who wants to force an NLP tool to declare a sentence boundary, if I recall correctly.
17:36	stuartsierra1	Ha!
17:36	TimMc	And then various JSON parsers cough ExtJS cough freak out when they see it, even though it's valid.
17:37	poppingtonic	what's the (currently) best clojure http client?
17:37	wei	poppingtonic: http-kit
17:37	poppingtonic	checking it out. ty
17:37	wei	or you could try clj-http
17:39	clj_newb_2345	are there any video tutorials of pedestal
17:39	seangrove	Yeah, both have been pretty pleasant to use
17:39	rkneufeld	clj_newb_2345: not yet, but we're hoping to do one some time.
17:39	clj_newb_2345	I feel like this is one of the few pieces of software where I need a bit more hand holding to understand.
17:39	clj_newb_2345	rkneufeld: you should put up a kickstarter. I'd donate a few packets of ramen noodles
17:40	rkneufeld	clj_newb_2345: That'd be a ton of fun–we just need the bandwidth to actually be able to deliver. Clojure Cookbook is taking up most of my time right now.
17:41	clj_newb_2345	rkneufeld: hmm, is the book open sourced https://github.com/clojure-cookbook/clojure-cookbook ?
17:41	rkneufeld	Yep
17:42	clj_newb_2345	rkneufeld: dumb question, how can I read the book without reading the raw asiidoc?
17:42	clj_newb_2345	is there a way to generate an html or pdf from that github?
17:42	dnolen	ztellman: what's up?
17:43	rkneufeld	You can with the asciidoc program, but it looks like ass. We need to rig up the output from the O'Reilly process to be displayed somewhere (Not even Luke or I can build locally, we have to do it in the Atlas system they have.)
17:44	ztellman	dnolen: let's say I have a function that returns a periodic stream of messages, by looping inside a go block, reading from a timeout channel, and then writing to the output channel
17:44	ztellman	then someone closes the output channel, because they don't need it anymore
17:44	ztellman	how will I ever know?
17:44	ztellman	I'll just keep on looping and no-oping forever
17:45	clj_newb_2345	rkneufeld: noted, thanks!
17:45	ztellman	there doesn't seem to be a closed? predicate, or any way of knowing that my enqueue fizzled
17:45	ztellman	am I missing something?
17:46	amalloy	ztellman: don't channels send a nil when they're closed? you could read something like (alts! timeout-channel output-channel), and if it's nil the output was closed
17:46	clj_newb_2345	What are people using for generating css from clojure? cssgen, clj-style, gaka, or something else? Note, I want to generate CSS, not do css-style selectors, thus not enlive
17:46	ztellman	amalloy: right, but this is from the producer's side
17:46	amalloy	i know
17:46	ztellman	I'd need to send a message from the consumer to the producer to stop
17:46	ztellman	right?
17:46	clojurebot	Equal Rights for Functional Objects is Baker's paper on equality and why it's impossible to define sensible equality in the presence of mutable data structures: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
17:46	technomancy	clojurebot: botsnack
17:46	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
17:47	ztellman	I can't consume my own messages, that's for someone else
17:47	amalloy	ztellman: i don't have a lot of experience with core.async, but my understanding from podcasts/etc was that when the consumer closes a channel, the producer would (if it reads the channel) see a nil
17:48	ztellman	I feel like there's something fundamental I'm not getting here, but why would the producer ever read the channel?
17:48	seangrove	ztellman: I'm with you so far, curious about this as well
17:48	seangrove	But why are consumers closing the channel?
17:49	amalloy	so that it can see that the channel has closed. it wouldn't ever see any other messages aside from the channel-closed message, right?
17:49	dnolen	ztellman: it seems weird to me that you would close the output channel yourself
17:49	amalloy	since put is "blocking", you would never be able to enqueue a message until the real consumer is there to read it, and so the only message that's ever in the channel for you to read will be a channel-closed message
17:49	ztellman	dnolen: if the stream from the producer is unbounded, then I might want it to stop sometime
17:49	hiredman	ztellman: there has been some discussion of a closed? predicate on the ml if you haven't seen it
17:50	ztellman	hiredman: I haven't, that would address this, I think
17:50	dnolen	ztellman: but if no one has a ref to it it will get collected anyway - if you need to clean up resources you need to consider that the channel in question may need to do a lot of cleaning up anyway
17:50	hiredman	amalloy: it sounds like you are assuming a "producer" and a "consumer" are passing messages back and forth to each other over a single channel, which seems very odd
17:51	dnolen	ztellman: so the producer should provide two things - the channel to consume, and channel to communicate a kill signal
17:51	amalloy	hiredman: i guess i'm out of my core.async depth
17:51	hiredman	amalloy: well just replace "channel" with "queue"
17:51	ztellman	dnolen: really? that seems wasteful, since all I need to know is if the channel's been closed
17:52	ztellman	to be fair, that's more or less what I did (in this case just created an atom that the consumer can mark when it's done)
17:52	ztellman	but it seems weird and indirect to me
17:52	zerokarmaleft	ztellman: talks.golang.org/2012/concurrency.slide#37
17:53	zerokarmaleft	rob pike's example pretty much mirrors what dnolen suggests
17:53	dnolen	ztellman: yeah I think what you're suggesting sounds like an anti-pattern, my understanding is that closed? will introduce race conditions, the pattern I've described seems to avoid that.
17:54	ztellman	dnolen: why would there be race conditions?
17:54	ztellman	in either case I may be enqueueing into a closed channel
17:54	bbloom	ztellman: im here too now
17:54	ztellman	bbloom: if you scroll back far enough, you can see my original question
17:55	ztellman	but it's basically about how to signal a producer to stop
17:55	ztellman	since they can't tell if they're enqueueing into a closed channel
17:55	bbloom	ztellman: the lack of predicates & other channel-state-inspection functions is intentional to avoid race conditions
17:56	ztellman	bbloom: I get that if you check closed? and then enqueue that it may have been closed after you check
17:56	technomancy	clojurebot: chocolate is <reply>actually I decided I prefer botsnacks after all.
17:56	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
17:56	ztellman	but I don't see how creating a "stop" channel gets around that
17:57	bbloom	"someone" closing a channel doesn't make sense
17:57	Raynes	ztellman: http://i.imgur.com/1N74Drm.jpg Have a transparent butterfly with which to lighten your day.
17:57	bbloom	close is a control signal from a producer
17:57	bbloom	it's not a resource management operation, you don't need to call it. and nobody should call it but the "owner" of the writing port
17:57	ztellman	what if downstream there's nowhere for the messages to go?
17:58	bbloom	ztellman: in go, if you have a receive-only channel, you CAN'T close it. it's a type error
17:58	bbloom	you need to have an extra channel for communication & use multiplexing
17:58	ztellman	ok, fair enough
17:59	ztellman	my intuition for CSP is horribly underdeveloped, thanks for the help, dnolen zerokarmaleft bbloom
17:59	ztellman	and thank you for the butterfly, Raynes
18:00	bbloom	ztellman: in general, the broken intuition is to use channels in more places in your app and to use fewer channels per place
18:00	bbloom	ztellman: instead, use channels less frequently, but don't be afraid to create a handful of them for various needs
18:00	bbloom	it's totally ok to have TWO parties communicating with 2,3, or 4 or so channels. or even to have them send channels back and forth to each other wrapped up in containers
18:02	bbloom	it's rare that you put a channel on a channel directly, but it's very common to put a channel in a "connection" or "request" object, then put that object on the channel
18:04	stuartsierra1	bbloom: Are you getting those intuitions from Go language docs?
18:04	zerokarmaleft	seems weird in that pattern that you can send a completely arbitrary message on the "stop/quit" channel b/c the producer discards it
18:05	bbloom	stuartsierra1: i've done a non-trivial amount of socket programming
18:05	bbloom	stuartsierra1: plus golang videos/docs/tinkering
18:05	stuartsierra1	ah
18:05	bbloom	zerokarmaleft: shrug lots of the go examples just sick a 1 on the channel
18:05	bbloom	stick*
18:06	zerokarmaleft	though I suppose finer-grained control could be had with explicit control messages if needed
18:06	bbloom	send :quit and then (assert (= msg :quit)) if you want to feel better :-)
18:06	stuartsierra1	Stick that in your channel and queue on it.
18:07	bbloom	reading the go std libs is a great way to see some common patterns
18:07	bbloom	check out their http or rpc libs
18:07	stuartsierra1	cool
18:07	zerokarmaleft	hmm, good idea
18:10	bbloom	this is a cool read too: http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/concurrent_window_system/
18:12	zerokarmaleft	I've read that, I've started on Hoare's CSP book in my free time
18:12	akurilin	I put together a simple standard deviation function as an example of a variadic fn (which I haven't written many of before). Could tell me if I could be doing this fairly idiomatically, or if I could do something better? http://pastebin.com/dK3fUCXq
18:14	akurilin	*I'm doing this, not "could" be
18:24	amalloy	akurilin: why is this variadic at all? it makes way more sense to have it accept a list
18:26	sorenmacbeth	anybody good with calling clojure from java land? I'm getting "call to unfound fn" errors calling into a reified instance which I've instantiated from a java class. shouldn't a reified object capture the fns called from inside it?
18:29	TimMc	A reasonable expectation, but you may need to require the namespace first using RT.
18:31	ztellman	bbloom: if you're still around, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on https://github.com/ztellman/narrator/blob/master/src/narrator/query.clj#L136
18:31	egghead	are there any examples of exposing a clojure namespace through a java class? I know datomic does this but it's not too easy to see their source
18:31	bbloom	ztellman: 1 sec
18:31	ztellman	bbloom: not entirely self-explanatory, but I think you can ignore all the bits that aren't prefixed with a/
18:32	amalloy	akurilin: that's also not a very good algorithm for std dev of a large list, since it has to hold the whole thing in memory at once
18:34	bbloom	ztellman: ok rewind, what are you trying to do?
18:34	bbloom	that's a lot of code for me to fail at reviewing :-)
18:34	ztellman	bbloom: haha, yeah, sorry
18:35	ztellman	basically, this takes something that describes a descriptor of a streaming analysis you'd like to do, plus a stream
18:35	ztellman	and returns a a stream representing the output of the analysis
18:36	ztellman	so in this case, it takes a channel, feeds the messages into the "operator", and periodically receives a "flush" signal that means it should emit a value into the output stream
18:36	TimMc	How do I tell lein-deploy to not try to sign a release?
18:37	bbloom	ztellman: why bother with this flush loop? why not just multiplex on a timeout & flush when it gets a message, then create a new timeout and loop?
18:37	akurilin	amalloy, true, I wasn't expecting large numbers, you're right.
18:37	akurilin	amalloy, aren't a lot of math operations in clj variadic by default for convenience? I was trying to model after +
18:38	akurilin	or the advice in this post: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7823516/why-are-many-clojure-functions-variadic
18:38	amalloy	akurilin: nobody's ever going to type (std-dev a b c d e f g), they're going to have a list of things like (std-dev xs)
18:38	ztellman	bbloom: hmm, I seem to recall rejecting that, but now I can't remember why
18:38	ztellman	so I'm going to assume it was for no good reason
18:38	amalloy	whereas (+ x 5) is much more common
18:39	akurilin	amalloy, so would you say that being variadic here buys you no extra flexibility?
18:40	ztellman	akurilin: not that you necessarily need it, but here's an implementation of streaming variance: https://github.com/ztellman/lamina/blob/perf/src/lamina/stats/variance.clj
18:40	amalloy	akurilin: variadic never impact flexibility, it's just a tradeoff of which calling scenario will be more convenient
18:40	akurilin	amalloy, got it.
18:40	akurilin	ztellman, thanks, will check it out!
18:41	amalloy	if your function is variadic, then calling it on a list of things will be annoying, (apply f some-list) instead of just (f some-list); if it's not variadic, then calling it on a couple of fixed args is annoying: (f [a b c]) instead of (f a b c)
18:41	akurilin	btw, I might have asked that before, but is it poor tone to cram a bunch of steps into the let form?
18:41	akurilin	and then just return the last binding inside of the let
18:41	amalloy	for +, (+ a b) is pretty common, so it's made convenient; for std-dev, nobody will ever do that, so make the thing they actually will do convenient
18:41	akurilin	amalloy, gotcha, makes total sense.
18:54	sorenmacbeth	TimMc: I'm doing this to load the namespace which contains the reify: https://gist.github.com/sorenmacbeth/72499f3b2a5f13012576
18:55	sorenmacbeth	TimMc: The problem occurs when I have functions from other namespaces which I've (:required) inside of the namespace that I've loaded
18:55	sorenmacbeth	inside the reify that is
18:56	sorenmacbeth	(reify Whatever ([this stuff things] (other-namespace/function-which-throws-unbound-fn stuff)))
18:56	LauJensen	Im seeing an issue where lein2.0 is not picking up the ~/.lein/profiles.clj user profile, has anyone come across that before, specifically on windows 8 ?
19:04	sorenmacbeth	the other thing I guess is important to mention is that it works fine locally (in a single thread), but breaking in a distributed environment
19:28	hiredman	sorenmacbeth: I recommend not eating exceptions like that
19:43	andrewshawcare	Hi, I had a question about lisp syntax...
19:44	andrewshawcare	Is there any reason why whitespace cannot define prefix notation? So instead of this:
19:44	andrewshawcare	(foo
19:44	andrewshawcare	1
19:44	andrewshawcare	2
19:44	andrewshawcare	3
19:44	andrewshawcare	)
19:44	andrewshawcare	we could write this:
19:44	andrewshawcare	foo
19:44	andrewshawcare	1
19:44	andrewshawcare	2
19:44	andrewshawcare	3
19:45	danlarkin	first of all, quit spamming the channel
19:45	andrewshawcare	That's how my client handles multiple lines, sorry.
19:45	danlarkin	second, congrats on being the 5 billionth person to come up with that idea
19:45	andrewshawcare	I don't user IRC often.
19:45	andrewshawcare	*use
19:45	danlarkin	it isn't very good if you really think about it
19:45	andrewshawcare	Why?
19:45	clojurebot	why not?
19:46	danlarkin	because why would you want it?
19:46	danlarkin	what possible advantage does it offer
19:46	andrewshawcare	To eliminate unnecessary syntax, possibly.
19:46	dnolen	andrewshawcare: people ask this all the time - usually if they haven't used Lisp for very long - spend some time w/ macros and you'll see why.
19:48	andrewshawcare	Which allows for greater readability.
19:48	danlarkin	except it doesn't
19:49	andrewshawcare	Care to offer a reason why?
19:50	danlarkin	you offering an opinion on clojure's readability is like me offering an opinion on fine wine
19:50	doc_brown	personally, i cant tell the difference between good wine and bad wine
19:50	dnolen	andrewshawcare: you could ask us or read up on it look at Dylan. if you aren't the first person to have the idea there's probably challenges involved in making it work in an acceptable fashion.
19:51	andrewshawcare	No, I don't think I'm making a subjective argument. Less to understand is less to understand. If we inherently use whitespace to organize our code already, it would seem that the braces would be redundant.
19:52	dnolen	andrewshawcare: look you have some opinions, come back when you've read about why it hasn't worked. It's also worth looking at Julia, which seems to have advanced the state of the art a bit (could be wrong about that).
19:52	danlarkin	they aren't redundant though, and for you to say they are suggests you don't really know clojure well enough to speak on the matter
19:53	danlarkin	which isn't to say you should abandon critical thinking, that's very valuable
19:53	andrewshawcare	I know they define a special type of list, one with the function to be invoked as the first item in the list.
19:53	danlarkin	it just so happens that you're mistaken here
19:53	andrewshawcare	And list literals are defined with '(), is that correct?
19:55	andrewshawcare	Did I make a mistake with my last two statements?
19:56	danlarkin	no, but it's not like you're going to convince anyone here
19:56	danlarkin	dnolen suggested some reading you could do
19:57	danlarkin	there's really nothing left to talk about
19:57	noto2	andrewshawcare, clojure has () for list, calling first arg if not 'quoted, [] for vectors, {} for maps... the braces help with legibility in most cases. having to indent every function call would fit like 10 columns of code on the screen
19:59	TEttinger	as an example, clojure could have (fn [coll] (map inc coll))
19:59	TEttinger	inc is a function, and if this proposed syntax treats functions specially, then that code breaks
20:00	TEttinger	or at least become much harder to read, because it makes indented coll fail and non-indented coll (which looks weird) work
20:00	andrewshawcare	Okay, so then you could write that as:
20:00	andrewshawcare	fn
20:00	andrewshawcare	[coll]
20:00	andrewshawcare	map
20:00	TEttinger	no
20:00	andrewshawcare	inc
20:00	andrewshawcare	coll
20:00	andrewshawcare	Or extend coll out further if inc is a function, sorry.
20:00	andrewshawcare	But actually, no.
20:00	andrewshawcare	Since it's not being invoked.
20:01	TEttinger	ok, you definitely haven't programmed in clojure.
20:01	andrewshawcare	It's an argument to map
20:01	TEttinger	you should try it first
20:01	dnolen	andrewshawcare: if you're going to show code please use a pasting service, don't paste in channel
20:01	TEttinger	alsom that's 5 lines for a one-liner, total waste of space
20:02	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: It's lisp. Everything is a one-liner. :)
20:02	andrewshawcare	You could also write your groceries on one line...
20:02	SegFaultAX	(Without doing syntax gymnastics)
20:02	andrewshawcare	Humans read in an F pattern
20:02	andrewshawcare	Top down, left to right (or possibly, right to left)
20:03	SegFaultAX	I like to write my programs as simple universal transformations.
20:03	TEttinger	well ##(count "(fn [coll] (map inc coll))") characters vs. 5 lines, and barring a truly massive screen you can't fit a large function on one screen, prohibiting readability
20:03	lazybot	⇒ 26
20:03	SegFaultAX	In other words, my program is a single function that takes the current state of the universe and produces the next state.
20:03	TEttinger	SegFaultAX, continuation passing style?
20:04	soulman_	SegFaultAX, with map it works on multiverses too
20:04	soulman_	;-)
20:04	SegFaultAX	soulman_: That's the spirit!
20:04	TEttinger	here, let me find a real-world example, andrewshawcare
20:05	andrewshawcare	And PS, sorry in advance for my IRC etiquette, I'm brand new to this and I'm sure I'm not doing some things correctly.
20:05	TimMc	andrewshawcare: Regardless of whether this is a good or bad idea, you owe it to yourself and others to at least research the history of this topic, as suggested.
20:05	SegFaultAX	"If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe" - Abraham Lincoln
20:06	andrewshawcare	How do I directly reference someone? Is there a prefix character?
20:06	SegFaultAX	andrewshawcare: Just type the first few letters of their nick and press the tab key.
20:06	andrewshawcare	SegFaultAX: Ah, thanks.
20:06	TimMc	~paste
20:06	clojurebot	paste is https://refheap.com/
20:07	TimMc	^ there's a pastebin you can use, too
20:07	andrewshawcare	TimMc: Awesome, thanks.
20:07	SegFaultAX	TimMc: You're a pastebin.
20:08	TimMc	Your face is a pastebin.
20:08	andrewshawcare	https://www.refheap.com/17172
20:08	andrewshawcare	Where inc might be a function, but like any variable, is just a variable in this context (since it isn't being invoked).
20:08	SegFaultAX	TimMc: Nuh uhh!!
20:09	malyn	andrewshawcare: I don't use it, but clarity has already worked this out: https://github.com/one-more-minute/clarity/
20:10	andrewshawcare	malyn: Ah, beautiful! Thanks.
20:10	malyn	andrewshawcare: Let's be careful with the "beautiful" word there... ;)
20:10	andrewshawcare	malyn: Fine, gorgeous.
20:12	TimMc	andrewshawcare: You're going to find a lot of pushback from the community. There are very good reasons for people preferring the s-expression syntax, which you will come to understand as you learn more about code-is-data.
20:13	TimMc	I guess what I'm saying is, you're not going to convince anyone with arguments that a beginner is capable of making.
20:13	soulman_	TimMc, yeah, that's it
20:13	andrewshawcare	Logical fallacies.
20:13	soulman_	TimMc, macros forever ;-)
20:13	TEttinger	http://pastebin.com/W3L6Le5N vs. http://pastebin.com/UVjFaDGN
20:14	TimMc	This is not an appeal to tradition, it's an appeal to learning about something before you try to change it.
20:14	technomancy	TimMc: http://epicureandealmaker.blogspot.com/2012/03/chesterton-fence.html
20:14	andrewshawcare	https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy
20:15	justin_smith	TimMc: no, clearly nobody who uses clojure has tried a non-homoiconic language, and if we actually tried it we would be converted
20:16	technomancy	«It is extremely probable that we have overlooked some whole aspect of the question, if something set up by human beings like ourselves seems to be entirely meaningless and mysterious. There are reformers who get over this difficulty by assuming that all their fathers were fools; but if that be so, we can only say that folly appears to be a hereditary disease.»
20:16	TimMc	andrewshawcare: Linking to fallacy descriptions is not a conversation.
20:17	hiredman	who wants to have this conversation?
20:17	TimMc	technomancy: That's some pretty good writing there.
20:17	technomancy	hiredman: I've already linked to Chesterton; it can only go downhill from here
20:18	andrewshawcare	I did stop and think, and deferred to the community. I was met with ridicule.
20:18	hiredman	I've had the poor guy on ignore for half an hour already and from here you look like a bunch of people yelling at an empty chair
20:18	andrewshawcare	"You're a beginner" "You clearly haven't programmed in clojure"
20:18	technomancy	clojurebot: Chesterton's fence is http://epicureandealmaker.blogspot.com/2012/03/chesterton-fence.html
20:18	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
20:18	technomancy	^ surely will come in handy in the future
20:18	TimMc	hiredman: Use the -replies feature if your client has it. (irssi does)
20:20	hiredman	shrug
20:20	TimMc	Something I've wanted for a bit is a plugin that just greys out ignored lines instead of hiding them.
20:21	TimMc	It would be useful for temporarily shutting out conversations.
20:21	clojurebot	excusez-moi
20:21	TimMc	or clojurebot
20:21	justin_smith	I wonder if people show up on #c and argue for garbage collection and tagged types as language level features?
20:21	andrewshawcare	I appreciate the help, I had one person provide me with a library that seemed to implement exactly what I asked, and some who would rather cast dispersion on someone 's character rather than help them.
20:22	andrewshawcare	I'm new to clojure, I'm going to say things that aren't correct.
20:23	technomancy	justin_smith: dare you to join #scala and ask "type systems... hm. seems like a lot of work, doesn't it? is it really worth it?"
20:24	justin_smith	andrewshawcare: speaking for myself it is less about the strict correctness and more about my own preferences in language design - if clojure was what you described (using indentation to carry structural information) I would be on some other channel talking about a language that wasn't like that
20:27	TimMc	...and gone.
20:31	seangrove	Scala is one-indexed?
20:31	seangrove	Interesting, always thought that was a bad idea
20:32	seangrove	I guess just for tuples though
20:36	soulman__	Haskell has whitespace conveying semantics
20:36	soulman__	I hate that since I woked with make.
20:41	TEttinger	I feel kinda bad that he thought I was mocking him, but his idea was definitely, almost verifiably bad for clojure. Getting macros to insert at the right indentation levels would be a hassle, for one, the lack of putting any meaning in horizontal space is another
20:42	TEttinger	ah, and clarity doesn't remove all brackets either
20:51	joe`	exit
21:46	dnolen	more fun w/ core.async, 100000 DOM updates http://swannodette.github.io/2013/08/02/100000-dom-updates/
21:46	dnolen	neat that core.async trivially allows you to express batched rendering
21:58	gfredericks	it does?
22:03	aidalgol	What did I do wrong here? http://paste.debian.net/22307/ It seems to be saying that an integer is not an integer.
22:05	dnolen	gfredericks: yes you send render updates to a channel which is looping on timeout
22:08	gfredericks	dnolen: I just don't see how that batches anything; something to do with buffered channels?
22:08	dnolen	gfredericks: the queue is batching updates
22:09	gfredericks	aidalgol: ##(even? nil)
22:09	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Argument must be an integer:
22:09	gfredericks	oh I missed the phrase "which is looping on timeout" somehow
22:10	aidalgol	gfredericks: Oh, right. At the end of the list. :P
22:10	gfredericks	yep
22:17	TimMc	TEttinger3: I think he was already feeling mocked by the time you joined the conversation, and in any case he did not seem to be up for a productive conversation.
22:23	isaacbw	clojure doesn't have any sugar for argument type overloading, right?
22:26	soulman__	multimethods
22:27	soulman__	defmulti and defmethod
22:27	soulman__	that's more sugar than most other languages. ;-)
22:30	ThatOneGuy	can I define a macro that uses ->?
22:30	gfredericks	ThatOneGuy: yes
22:30	ThatOneGuy	so (defmacro awesome [lawl] (-> lawl something something))
22:30	gfredericks	-> itself is a macro that uses ->
22:30	isaacbw	soulman__: oh man, awesome
22:31	gfredericks	ThatOneGuy: that code is technically allowable yes
22:31	john2x	wat
22:31	ThatOneGuy	well I'm trying to compact some zipper traversal code
22:32	ThatOneGuy	in my zipper, z/down, z/down z/right, z/down z/right z/right, all stand for something so I would like to make macros that expand to them so I can just (-> zip short-macro-1 shorter-macro-2) and it will expand out correctly
22:32	dnolen	100,000 go blocks in ClojureScript (edge of what's possible :) http://swannodette.github.io/2013/08/02/100000-processes/
22:34	jtoy	are there any libraries for if i want to operate on clojure objects but all form disk so i dont have to store them in memory?
22:34	jtoy	and do calculations on the collections
22:45	ThatOneGuy	sorry I closed my laptop. why do I need a backtick for (defmacro shorter-macro1 [forms] (-> forms z/down z/right)) ?
22:47	mattmoss	,(+ 1 2)
22:47	clojurebot	3
22:47	mattmoss	,`(+ 1 2)
22:47	clojurebot	(clojure.core/+ 1 2)
22:48	ThatOneGuy	but if im using -> wouldn't it just expand anyways?
22:48	ThatOneGuy	,'(-> forms z/down z/right)
22:48	clojurebot	(-> forms z/down z/right)
22:49	mattmoss	,(-> forms z/down z/right)
22:49	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: z, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
22:49	mattmoss	Or were you asking tick vs. backtick rather than nothing vs. backtick?
22:49	ThatOneGuy	,(require 'clojure.zip :as z)
22:49	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: z in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
22:49	ThatOneGuy	,(require '[clojure.zip :as z])
22:49	clojurebot	nil
22:50	ThatOneGuy	,(defmacro shorter-macro1 [forms] (-> forms z/down z/right))
22:50	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
22:50	mattmoss	Can't do that w/clojurebot.
22:51	amalloy	ThatOneGuy: without the `, the -> gets expanded at compile-time, leading to the macroexpander attempting to do down+right while expanding the macro, rather than working on the zipper in your expanded code
22:53	mattmoss	ThatOneGuy: you also don't need macros here.
22:53	mattmoss	(def short-op (comp z/down z/right z/right))
22:54	ThatOneGuy	ok, so when: (-> zip z/down z/right shorter-macro1) =expands to=> (-> (z/right (z/down zip)) z/down z/right)
22:55	ThatOneGuy	but comp is a function, and really all I'm doing is renaming a series of functions, so I think a macro would be better, no?
22:55	mattmoss	Generally, no.
22:55	amalloy	ThatOneGuy: there's really no excuse for that function to be a macro
22:56	ThatOneGuy	aren't macros expanded at compile/read time?
22:57	mgaare	yes
22:58	ThatOneGuy	and this is a simple rename of z/down (comp) z/right -> better-name; I'd rather not have the overhead of a function just for this. I am going to be traversing this zipper'd datastructure a lot in the following code so I'd like to reduce any overhead
22:58	mattmoss	ThatOneGuy: Ask yourself.... why is that important? why do you need it expanded?
22:58	mattmoss	Overhead of a comp isn't an issue when most everything you're doing isn't macros.
22:59	mgaare	ThatOneGuy: speaking of overhead, if it's a function the jvm will be able to more easily jit
22:59	ThatOneGuy	and it can't jit a ->?
23:00	mgaare	it'll have to do that in every place you use the macro, rather than just the one function
23:00	amalloy	ThatOneGuy: you are lightyears away from the conclusion that you need to inline this function for performance
23:01	ThatOneGuy	Ok, I'll go with the prettier version :P But just out of curiousity, (-> zip z/down z/right (-> z/down z/right z/right)) expands to a single set of nested forms?
23:01	amalloy	try it and see
23:02	ThatOneGuy	:) have to get used to the repl again. its been a while since I've written clojure. I write C# at my day job
23:02	mattmoss	,macroexpand
23:02	clojurebot	#<core$macroexpand clojure.core$macroexpand@159715d>
23:03	mattmoss	,(macroexpand '(-> zip z/down z/right (-> z/down z/right z/right)))
23:03	clojurebot	(z/right (clojure.core/-> (clojure.core/-> (clojure.core/-> (clojure.core/-> zip z/down) z/right) z/down) z/right))
23:03	ThatOneGuy	user> (macroexpand (-> [] z/down z/right (-> z/down z/right)))
23:03	ThatOneGuy	IndexOutOfBoundsException clojure.lang.PersistentVector.arrayFor (PersistentVector.java:107)
23:04	mattmoss	,(macroexpand '(-> [] z/down z/right (-> z/down z/right)))
23:04	clojurebot	(z/right (clojure.core/-> (clojure.core/-> (clojure.core/-> [] z/down) z/right) z/down))
23:04	mattmoss	I think there's a macroexpand-all, but I forgot which namespace it's in.
23:05	mattmoss	,(clojure.walk/macroexpand '(-> [] z/down z/right (-> z/down z/right)))
23:05	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
23:05	mattmoss	,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(-> [] z/down z/right (-> z/down z/right)))
23:05	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
23:05	ThatOneGuy	,(doc macroexpand)
23:05	clojurebot	"([form]); Repeatedly calls macroexpand-1 on form until it no longer represents a macro form, then returns it. Note neither macroexpand-1 nor macroexpand expand macros in subforms."
23:06	amalloy	&(do (require 'clojure.walk) (clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(-> [] z/down z/right (-> z/down z/right))))
23:06	lazybot	⇒ (z/right (z/down (z/right (z/down []))))
23:06	mattmoss	thanks, amalloy
23:07	ThatOneGuy	thanks.
23:07	ThatOneGuy	so final version: (defn DSL-name [loc] (-> loc z/down z/right))
23:08	mattmoss	Another way: (def DSL-name (comp z/down z/right))
23:09	mattmoss	oops, ... (comp z/right z/down)
23:09	mattmoss	Bad brain. Bad!
23:10	ThatOneGuy	might as well restrict the args so it fits with the zipper DSL
23:11	mattmoss	The (comp ...) version will be the same, since z/down (first part of comp) only takes the one arg.
23:11	jimrthy	I want to busy-loop poll a socket until it closes (state reset...so I have to be single-threaded by now); is there anything more idiomatic than loop/recur?
23:11	mattmoss	It'll work out the same, but your final version does name it explicitly, which is comforting for some.
23:13	mattmoss	Also: "when to use macros": http://clojurefun.wordpress.com/2013/01/09/when-do-you-need-macros-in-clojure/
23:13	ThatOneGuy	,(doc comp)
23:13	clojurebot	"([] [f] [f g] [f g h] [f1 f2 f3 & fs]); Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the composition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, applies the rightmost of fns to the args, the next fn (right-to-left) to the result, etc."
23:14	ThatOneGuy	yeah var-args
23:17	mattmoss	Sure, the comp is, but z/down is not, so (DSL-name arg1 arg2) will fail whether you are explicit or point-free.
23:17	aidalgol	Why does (cons 'foo 'bar) throw a hissy fit?
23:18	aidalgol	In elisp and scheme, I get (foo . bar)
23:18	mattmoss	,(cons 'foo 'bar)
23:18	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol>
23:18	mattmoss	Because the 2nd arg is not a sequence as cons expects.
23:18	mattmoss	,(doc cons)
23:18	clojurebot	"([x seq]); Returns a new seq where x is the first element and seq is the rest."
23:18	aidalgol	Right, so to be more direct, why is cons different in clojure?
23:20	mattmoss	Sorry, can't help you there. Someone more versed in the design will have to attend.
23:21	amalloy	aidalgol: clojure doesn't have cons cells, it has sequences. so consing onto something that is not sequential is an error
23:21	jimrthy	I'm not an expert, but I think the goal was to distance themselves from the ancient lisp roots.
23:21	aidalgol	ah
23:21	mattmoss	,(conj nil 'foo 'bar)
23:21	clojurebot	(bar foo)
23:21	mattmoss	hmm
23:21	aidalgol	,doc conj
23:21	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.repl/doc, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:21	mattmoss	,(doc conj)
23:21	clojurebot	"([coll x] [coll x & xs]); conj[oin]. Returns a new collection with the xs 'added'. (conj nil item) returns (item). The 'addition' may happen at different 'places' depending on the concrete type."
23:22	aidalgol	oops...
23:22	mgaare	,(cons 'foo '(bar))
23:22	clojurebot	(foo bar)
23:37	futile	i notice my clojure code is much closer to actual intent than my code in any other language
23:38	futile	i.. i cant explain it
23:41	mischov	don't try. it's... futile
23:42	futile	:)
23:42	futile	btw it occurred to me recently that #clojure is an awesome channel full of very smart, mature, helpful people
23:42	futile	thank you all.
23:43	futile	its a pleasant community to be in
23:44	mischov	And there I had to go and make a joke right before you said it. There goes the maturity! I second the full of very smart, helpful people, though.
23:44	mischov	People have been great about fielding my sometimes really dumb questions.
23:44	jimrthy	It's an unpleasant statement about my character that my first inclination was to /fart in futile's general direction
23:45	futile	even so, very mature channel
23:45	jimrthy	(not that I'm much more than a lurker, at best)
23:45	futile	its easier to see when you step outside the community for a moment.
23:49	futile	im also way excited to be able to control my OS X windows via clojure
23:50	jimrthy	@futile: You're absolutely correct. The people on here are generally quite amazing.
23:50	jimrthy	And, yeah. That's way cool!
23:50	futile	:)