#clojure – 2013-07-29

2013-07-29

00:26	sinistersnare	hey, i was just wondering if java8 means anything to the clojure community. mostly just JVM improvements. Like java7 brough invokeDynamic, does java8 bring anything special to the JVM?
00:34	seangrove	dnolen: Would you be cool if I add in an emit-fn-params method? Right now there's a problem with fn params being repeated in the output js source, and the closure compiler refusing to compile it
00:34	seangrove	e.g. (defmulti apply-multi-test (fn ([_] 0) ([_ _] 0) ([_ _ _] 0)))
00:35	bbloom	seangrove: i'm not dnolen, but i can help unblock you should he not reply
00:35	bbloom	seangrove: make that change in isolation
00:36	bbloom	create a separate patch for just that bug and/or refactoring. write a good commit message that motivates it
00:36	bbloom	then dnolen is more likely to be able to understand & accept
00:36	seangrove	bbloom: and just note that the source-map-columns patch relies on having this emit-fn-param patch?
00:37	bbloom	yeah
00:37	bbloom	i only sorta understand what you're saying, but it sounds like it might be a good patch on it's own
00:37	bbloom	especially if it fixes a bug
00:37	bbloom	i've had failed larger patches that have yielded a handful of useful fixes / cleanups that dnolen has accepted
00:37	seangrove	It fixes a problem that I've introduced
00:38	bbloom	lol well that's slightly different
00:38	seangrove	Yeah :P
00:38	bbloom	but still, if it cleans the code up and enables something, you can certainly motivate it
00:38	seangrove	By having fn params get emitted as vars, the current method of making sure param-names don't get reused in a single fn declaration doesn't work anymore
00:38	seangrove	Ok, will do
00:38	seangrove	Sounds reasonable enough anyway
00:39	seangrove	Makes it easier to reason about
00:39	bbloom	yup
00:39	bbloom	this is why i always say: git is more than a version control tool. it's a tool for thinking about software development as an orderly sequence of incremental improvements
00:40	bbloom	it's a tool for slicing and dicing patches, just as much as vim and emacs are tools for slicing and dicing code
00:40	bbloom	so slice and dice!
00:40	seangrove	That's an interesting point
00:49	dnolen	seangrove: this sort of thing is easier to understand in a source maps design page
00:49	bbloom	ah, design pages. where implementation progress goes to die :-P
00:50	dnolen	seangrove: I do understand the basic issue - but I can't offer much about solution approach until I understand what approach you are considering
00:50	dnolen	bbloom: haha
01:24	Raynes	rkneufeld: ping
01:25	sinistersnare	pong!
01:25	Raynes	o.o
01:26	Raynes	You can't pong someone else's ping!
01:26	Raynes	That's just rude.
01:26	sinistersnare	too bad, i did it
01:26	xeqi	mitm attack
01:26	callen	Raynes: hai
01:27	Raynes	rkneufeld: Anyways, just wanted to say thanks for lein try. I just did `lein try [me.raynes/fs "1.4.5"]` to get a little shell scripting repo. This is amazingly powerful because of aliases. I can make an alias, `lein shell`, and have this awesome whenever I like.
01:27	callen	Raynes: what does lein try do?
01:27	Raynes	$google lein-try
01:27	lazybot	[rkneufeld/lein-try · GitHub] https://github.com/rkneufeld/lein-try
01:28	Raynes	callen: It's "start up a repl with these dependencies added, please"
01:28	callen	Raynes: how nifty and compact.
01:28	callen	that's freakin' sweet.
01:28	callen	no more dumb placeholder projects.
01:30	Raynes	callen: It's be cooler if you could give it a bit of code to execute at startup as well.
01:30	callen	Raynes: repl init code is kinda of a long-running annoyance for me.
01:30	callen	lein task combinators would contribute to solving that I guess.
01:30	Raynes	callen: lein try [me.raynes/fs "1.4.5"] '(require \'[me.raynes.fs :as fs])' = winning
01:30	Raynes	Cause I could alias that and truly have a shell repl waiting for me.
02:14	egghead	heh, I was playing with websockets and core.async, accidentally made an echo server that sent everything it received back on both ends
02:16	certainty	moin
02:18	callen	certainty: moin moin
02:20	sinistersnare	the fish?
02:22	mmarczyk	first cut at transients support coming to a cljs rrb tree implementation near you
02:22	bbloom	mmarczyk: bad ass
02:22	callen	mmarczyk: nifty. :)
02:23	mmarczyk	I hasten to add (sheepishly) that that's along with a failing test case
02:23	mmarczyk	needless to say I fully expect it not to stay failing for long :-P
02:24	bbloom	mmarczyk: is there a good citation for how transients work? is it in Purely Functional Data Structures ?
02:24	mmarczyk	bbloom: afaik they're original to Clojure
02:24	mmarczyk	dnolen: ^
02:25	bbloom	mmarczyk: really? rich did it as original research? he's a smart dude, but that doesn't seem like his MO
02:25	mmarczyk	dnolen: that was supposed to read "^ right?"
02:26	mmarczyk	bbloom: I've come across two acknowledgements of vectors being his original idea
02:26	mmarczyk	bbloom: it is based on Phil Bagwell's earlier work, but with substantial new insight
02:26	mmarczyk	bbloom: also Clojure's persistent HAMT is, well, persistent, which the original HAMT as described in the paper wasn't
02:27	mmarczyk	bbloom: "Ideal Hash Trees" is all mutable
02:27	bbloom	heh well ok
02:28	bbloom	i honestly don't know how to program any more without the set of data structures that clojure provides
02:28	mmarczyk	bbloom: neither do I
02:28	bbloom	https://github.com/harukizaemon/hamster <- saved my ass TWICE now on ruby projects for clients :-)
02:28	bbloom	made me look like a fucking hero when i was able to make things magically work that people couldn't do before, heh
02:28	tomjack	I've just been trying to make a PHM wrapper for java :(
02:29	mmarczyk	bbloom: wow, interesting
02:29	bbloom	mmarczyk: both cases involved speculative operations (ie backtracking)
02:30	mmarczyk	bbloom: original impl not based on Clojure?
02:30	bbloom	in one, the client wanted to try a dozen or so different operations and choose maximize the result
02:30	mmarczyk	bbloom: (hamster, I mean)
02:30	bbloom	hamster has citations in the readme
02:31	mmarczyk	bbloom: it cites ideal hash trees, but the way I remember it there's not a word about anything being persistent in tehre
02:31	mmarczyk	there.
02:31	mmarczyk	certainly the word isn't used
02:31	mmarczyk	neither is immutable
02:31	mmarczyk	anyway
02:32	bbloom	in the other ruby project where it helped me out, there was some crazy bug that nobody could figure out. i just changed the program to use immutable structures & then changed a loop into an inject (aka reduce) then changed that into a "reductions" then did some analysis over basically partition 2 with a step 1 (ie diffs) and poof isolated the bug
02:32	mmarczyk	yeah, kind of cool to be able to keep old versions around given this use case :-)
02:32	mmarczyk	magic ;-)
02:32	bbloom	same client, both times he was like "bwha!?!?!" and now he's learning clojure, heh
02:33	mmarczyk	sharing your book of spells then? :-)
02:33	bbloom	that's what they pay me fore
02:33	mmarczyk	heh, right
02:34	bbloom	mmarczyk: ok one other related thing you might know about
02:34	bbloom	consider dynamic bindings
02:35	bbloom	oleg describes 3 possible implementations: 1) "deep binding" which is just a stack that provides constant push and linear walk for reads
02:35	bbloom	2) "shallow binding" which is basically try/let/set/finally/set-back
02:36	bbloom	and 3) some name i forget that is basically what clojure does, where you just keep a running set of bindings and merge them each time
02:36	bbloom	anyway, #1 is linear reads and constant writes
02:36	bbloom	#2 is constant reads & writes, but not thread safe
02:37	bbloom	#3 has constant reads & writes, but has bigger issues analyzing the stack of bindings
02:37	bbloom	so the question is this:
02:37	bbloom	is there a way to "slice" bindings effectively, just like an rrb vector
02:37	bbloom	but that gives you a "map" view of such a slice that has log lookups
02:38	bbloom	basically, i want the "newest" binding all the time on read, but want log lookup instead of linear
02:38	bbloom	and i want to slice and concat the stack of bindings efficiently too
02:38	bbloom	mmarczyk: does that make sense?
02:39	mmarczyk	bbloom: do you have the Oleg link on hand?
02:39	bbloom	http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/dynamic-binding.html#DDBinding
02:39	bbloom	DDBinding.pdf
02:39	mmarczyk	oh ok, that's what I'm looking at
02:40	bbloom	i'm building a CESK-style interpreter, but i want to support delimited continuations
02:40	bbloom	right now, i just do the standard linear search and recurisve linked list copy/concat/whatever, but i was hoping for something better
02:42	mmarczyk	well, this is interesting
02:42	mmarczyk	I'll need to think about this, but it does make sense
02:43	bbloom	the real issue is that reads from deep dynamic vars will involve walking the entire stack
02:43	bbloom	so like if you have a deep recursive function that is 1000 levels deep and you want to look up the hostname or something practically global, you need to walk 1000 levels up
02:43	bbloom	which probably isn't too bad, but would be terrible in an inner loop
02:44	bbloom	granted, tail call elimination could dramatically shallow (verb) the stack, so it might be OK in practice
02:44	bbloom	i'm just curious
02:46	bbloom	btw, it's section 7 of that pdf
02:46	mmarczyk	yeah, just read that
02:47	mmarczyk	so in deep binding something like (binding [foo bar] ...) installs a new frame at the front of a list
02:47	bbloom	yeah, basically a parent pointer in each continuation
02:48	bbloom	(defrecord Machine [continuation control environment store])
02:48	bbloom	(defrecord Continuation [value environment control continuation])
02:48	bbloom	that's what i have in my notes
02:48	tomjack	maybe in each node keep a map from key to highest index containing an entry with that key? then concat is an extra O(n) in the number of distinct keys per node (hopefully effectively constant)? and slice...?
02:50	tomjack	what's the problem with option 3?
02:50	bbloom	so the idea in that delimited bindings pdf is that when you capture a delimited continuation, you only capture the dynamic bindings within that continuation
02:50	bbloom	the problem with #3 is that it is undelimited
02:50	bbloom	the example in the paper that made the most sense to me was "mobile code"
02:51	mmarczyk	how about a map of var -> list of values
02:51	bbloom	say you have a continuation based web server & it pauses execution and then another request comes in on a different box and the continuation is saved in memcache or something
02:51	mmarczyk	if empty, use global value
02:51	mmarczyk	(empty list = unbound var)
02:51	bbloom	so when the continuation resumes on a different machine, you want to keep any dynamic bindings in the processesing of the request, like user-time-zone but replace the host-name binding
02:51	bbloom	tomjack: make sense?
02:52	tomjack	somewhat
02:52	bbloom	mmarczyk: that's what clojure does. see what i just said to tomjack
02:52	mmarczyk	right
02:52	tomjack	I don't think I've ever understood delimited continuations, but I think I sorta get it
02:53	tomjack	in my idea above you do one PHM lookup on the root, then an RRB lookup :/
02:53	bbloom	(binding [host-name …] (process-request (fn [request] (binding [user-time-zone …] …))))
02:53	bbloom	tomjack: assume that the function passed to process-request can be paused and resumed later on a different web server
02:54	tomjack	I've been kind of curious before about attaching finger-tree like metadata on RRB nodes
02:55	tomjack	in this case basically an index over vars?
02:55	bbloom	yeah, but your index is invalidated when you splice the stack
02:55	mmarczyk	bbloom: wait, so does Clojure keep a list of map-like binding frames
02:55	mmarczyk	bbloom: or a map of lists
02:55	bbloom	i can conceive of sensible caching approach to the "deep binding" strategy, but i can't conceive of a persistent structure that is inherently efficient
02:55	tomjack	sure, you're going to have to rebuild the indices of all the new nodes?
02:56	bbloom	mmarczyk: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Var.java
02:56	bbloom	see pushTheadBindings
02:56	mmarczyk	yeah, looking at this :-)
02:57	bbloom	each frame has a parent frame pointer and a bindings map
02:57	bbloom	the for loop basically does merge
02:57	bbloom	that's the "acquaintance vector" strategy #3 in the literature
02:58	mmarczyk	bbloom: ok, got that
02:58	mmarczyk	bbloom: and you want to be able to throw away bindings installed before a marker
02:58	bbloom	tomjack: i'm trying to figure out a way to do it w/o having to cache b/c the cache will be invalidated A LOT if you make use of control structures for normal code (like if you wanted to implement core.logic in terms of continuations)
02:58	bbloom	mmarczyk: right
02:59	tomjack	cache? var -> rrb index ?
03:00	tomjack	are there reasonable cases where the set of distinct vars isn't effectively O(1)
03:00	bbloom	tomjack: but you need to splice the indexes (slice and concat)
03:00	mmarczyk	and you'd like to be able to serialize the delimited continuation with the pre-marker stuff left out, I suppose?
03:00	bbloom	tomjack: you need to find A PARTICULAR key
03:00	tomjack	if that were the case, it would seem that the overhead of the measures would be some constant factor over a bare RRB
03:00	bbloom	it's a sorted multi-map
03:00	mmarczyk	actually, more importantly
03:01	mmarczyk	would you be ok with early bindings hanging around until the whole thing is serialized?
03:01	bbloom	mmarczyk: serialization is a whole nother thing, just illustrates one use case
03:01	mmarczyk	in that case you could use an index-based approach to cutting off early bindings and then during serialization actually use it to prune stuff
03:01	bbloom	mmarczyk: would be better if the continuations were correctly pruned, such that no garbage was unintentionally retained
03:02	tomjack	I don't understand your point about cache invalidation
03:03	bbloom	tomjack: i'm trying to find a solution w/o any mutable caches b/c slicing and concatenating stack subsequences is extremely common
03:03	bbloom	so the caches would likely never have time to get warm
03:03	tomjack	hmm.. mutable cache?
03:04	tomjack	I was suggesting putting a normal PHM in each node
03:04	bbloom	that won't work b/c you need to capture only a SUBSET of the bindings
03:04	bbloom	and that subset is specified by where you splice the stack
03:05	tomjack	yeah, when you splice the RRB, you need to recompute the measures up to the new root. is that what you mean by "mutable"?
03:05	bbloom	by mutable i meant like a memo atom cache
03:05	bbloom	i guess in theory you could keep a PHM per frame and recompute that PHM during slicing
03:06	bbloom	so what you're saying about a small number of dynamic vars means that it's "effectively constant"
03:06	bbloom	slicing and concatenating would still be linear, but with a higher constant for merging vars as you go
03:06	bbloom	and then you'd get log(vars) lookup
03:07	bbloom	instead of linear(stack)
03:07	tomjack	hmm
03:07	bbloom	not sure that would pay off tho
03:07	tomjack	RRB should give you log everywhere, no?
03:07	bbloom	the issue is that there is a "filter" for a particular stack frame that you're gonna splice at
03:08	bbloom	you don't splice at "position 5" or at "key > 123"
03:08	bbloom	or rather on lookup i mean
03:09	bbloom	hmmm… thinking...
03:09	egghead	https://gist.github.com/eggsby/6102537 :) borrowed some of dnolens code to implement a websocket as a cljs core.async chan
03:09	tomjack	I'm imagining that whatever is pushing/popping bindings will know the indices at which to splice (i.e. it will keep track of the stack depth)
03:09	bbloom	tomjack: nah, it can't. there needs to be a level of indirection for the "name" of the place to splice
03:10	bbloom	tomjack: b/c it can hold on to that name and a variety of changes can happen to the stack in between
03:10	bbloom	i'm a little too tired to be thinking about this now tho
03:10	mmarczyk	very cool problem
03:10	tomjack	hmm, so I've just been thinking of an RRB vector of MapEntry, but there needs to be some extra markers that say "a frame named XYZ starts here" or something?
03:11	bbloom	soooo i'm gonna go to sleep. mmarczyk is gonna continue being awesome w/ rrb. and you can read oleg & try to make sense of delimited continuations :-)
03:11	bbloom	tomjack: yeah something like that
03:11	bbloom	you need to lookup "most recent stack frame labeled X"
03:11	bbloom	and then slice there
03:11	mmarczyk	now I'll be thinking about the perfect data structure for this
03:11	bbloom	and then concat it back somewhere else
03:13	mmarczyk	bbloom: does reinstating the continuation automatically install the marker?
03:13	mmarczyk	at point of splicing
03:14	bbloom	mmarczyk: there are a variety of operators that do a bunch of subtly different things
03:14	bbloom	shift/reset has kinda "won"
03:14	bbloom	but there are also named prompts + capture/restore which has won in practice
03:14	bbloom	i still don't understant the precise details
03:14	bbloom	it's all in the mountain of stuff on oleg's site :-P
03:15	mmarczyk	in practice? who implements that?
03:16	bbloom	heh. well racket has a variety of operators w/ a hacky patched up pile of craziness at the bottom on top of ye old call/cc of yore
03:16	bbloom	then oleg et al have done delimc libraries for ocaml, some scheme, and haskell
03:17	bbloom	in ocaml via hacking with the byte code machine, in scheme via a call/cc+state hack, and in haskell as translation to a monad :-P
03:18	sontek	So are people still using noir for web development or has eveyrone switched to using ring and rolling their own?
03:19	mmarczyk	bbloom: thinking about this gives me this euphoric feeling... :-)
03:20	bbloom	mmarczyk: heh
03:20	mmarczyk	nothing like a story of a fabulous hack in the morning :-)
03:20	bbloom	mmarczyk: in theory tho, it's actually a pretty "simple" set of semantics
03:20	bbloom	reading the math is hard for a simpleton like me
03:20	bbloom	but i'm almost there
03:22	mmarczyk	bbloom: have you looked into http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/monadicDC.pdf ?
03:22	bbloom	not yet, but it's on my queue
03:23	mmarczyk	mostly asking because I've been wondering if there's a usable implementation
03:23	bbloom	in my experience, monads are about types and types alone
03:24	bbloom	i'm a believe in optional/pluggable type systems & so i feel that you need to understand the dynamic primitives before you can talk about the types
03:24	bbloom	moands seems like cart before the horse to me in haskell land
03:25	bbloom	i'm a big believer in "strategy" systems
03:26	bbloom	ie systems that let you combine operations by adding & removing groups of sub operations, such that you can tune the system to the problem at hand
03:26	bbloom	but i'm getting really abstract now & certainly making ZERO sense
03:26	bbloom	so i'm going to bed
03:26	bbloom	cya guys
03:26	mmarczyk	good night
03:26	noonian	night
03:26	mmarczyk	disagree about zero sense, but we can continue next time ;-)
04:35	llasram	It is that time of the day
04:35	ddellacosta	yep. heh.
04:39	hyPiRion	too early for Europeans on vacation, too late for Americans
04:39	Raynes	callen: ping perchance
04:40	Raynes	callen: http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2013-July/074906.html I
04:41	Raynes	I'm currently being told that being able to send EOF to an external process's stdin and then read data over EOF is a bad thing you should never do and that's why you can't do it in Erlang. This is a feature of every single modern programming language in existence. I give up. Seriously, man. I'm beyond cynical at this point.
04:41	Raynes	I'm at blown away level throw-shit-out-the-window.
04:42	hyPiRion	Raynes: and we all love unicode too!
04:43	hyPiRion	But yeah man, IO is really hard. Even the JVM has serious design flaws there
04:44	hyPiRion	IO, character sets and dates are like the bane of most programs.
04:45	xybre	Whats wrong with sockets?
04:45	xybre	That seems like the best tool for the job.
04:46	Raynes	xybre: Sure, go hack in socket support for all the fundamental unix programs which rely on you being able to read data from them after you've sent them EOF.
04:46	xybre	Which are you using?
04:47	Raynes	What difference does it make?
04:47	Raynes	All of them.
04:47	Raynes	This is a problem with Erlang.
04:49	llasram	Maybe it's a communication issue. I mean, there isn't a libc function to do what you're describing. Instead you pipe, fork, dup2, exec, right? Maybe can do same thing in Erlang?
04:49	xybre	It makes a lot of difference.
04:50	Raynes	llasram: I think it is a communication issue. If not, then I'm entirely blown away.
04:50	xybre	Especially in Unix, a lot of commands are just wrappers around kernel functions. So often you should invoke them yourself instead of shelling out. Unless you're writing Bash scripts.
04:51	Raynes	There are other programs, for example pygmentize, that waits for EOF as well.
04:52	xybre	I'm guessing Erlang wasn't designed for scripting.
04:52	Raynes	Don't think Java was either.
04:53	xybre	Java tries to do everything, its a mass of feature creep.
04:55	xybre	Like perl. If perl had multimilion dollar companies backing its development.
05:02	Raynes	xybre: Name a language where you can't do this.
05:06	xybre	Befunge.
05:07	Raynes	lol
05:07	xybre	You can't do it in C unless you do it by hand, it looks like you just have to do it by hand in Erlang too.
05:08	Raynes	You can't do it by hand in Erlang.
05:08	Raynes	You can write C code to do it and then try to talk to that C code in Erlang.
05:08	Raynes	This should be abstracted.
05:08	Raynes	Ports are already an abstraction for reading and writing, the missing piece is just telling it that you're done writing.
05:09	Raynes	I think Richard misunderstood me, because it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
05:09	xybre	Providing detailed use cases tends to help visualize solutions. Perhaps an example could better explain to him.
05:09	Raynes	I sent an example a few minutes ago.
05:10	Raynes	Hopefully that clear things up.
05:10	xybre	Hopefully!
05:11	Raynes	I'm just frustrated, because ROK is a bit of a God in the Erlang community, and if he dismisses this because he misunderstands me or something then it's likely going to get buried. I've got a pal who knows Joe Armstrong and says he'll bring it up with him and get his opinion on it in any case, so I can stop caring so much about responses on the mailing list I suppose.
05:11	Raynes	Joe Armstrong is kinda the last stop down the "will this happen" line.
05:12	xybre	Some people have off days too, things get overlooked, sometimes pride or shortsightedness gets the best of us. If there's not a solution right now, there likely will be in the near future.
06:06	jonasen	bbloom: fipp (mostly) ported to cljs: https://github.com/jonase/fipp/compare/cljs
06:07	dotemacs	hello
06:08	dotemacs	Just stumbled upon this exchange on Twitter: https://twitter.com/artagnon/status/361784625716133889 Troll?
06:10	hyPiRion	dotemacs: Just tells you that the core doesn't have a need for many changes, and that those changes are considered thoroughly
06:11	hyPiRion	See e.g. core.async, which isn't built into the Clojure repo, but is nevertheless a "core" feature in some sense
06:11	hyPiRion	That being said, yeah, bug additions to core happens slowly.
06:12	hyPiRion	bug fixes I mean
06:12	jonasen	hyPiRion: but bug additions happens slowly too :)
06:12	hyPiRion	jonasen: yeah, true that :)
06:14	learner_	Hi, I am trying to understand a puzzle solution listed @ https://gist.github.com/swannodette/5127150 . But I am not able to figure out where "clojure.logic.set" reference is coming from. Any idea which library this namespace is part of? Thanks for your help in advance
06:15	dotemacs	hyPiRion: thanks for the reply :)
06:37	noncom	hi! is there any good example of building a TCP client with Aleph?
06:38	noncom	the one at the official github page is not well-described
06:50	opqdonut	weird: proxy works when in a file, but not in the repl (user namespace)
06:50	opqdonut	NPE in clojure.core$name
06:55	arcatan	o hai opqdonut
06:55	opqdonut	cheerio
06:57	arcatan	certainly this works in repl: (def foo (proxy [Closeable] [] (close [] (prn "foo")))) (.close foo)
06:58	opqdonut	that's almost exactly what I did: (def p (proxy [java.io.Closeable] [] (close [this] (prn :CLOSE))))
06:58	opqdonut	oh, right, the this is bogus. well it fails even without it: (def p (proxy [java.io.Closeable] [] (close [] (prn :CLOSE))))
06:59	arcatan	opqdonut: when i copy-pasted that to repl, there was a weird space characters. once i removed them, the NPE went away
07:00	opqdonut	hah
07:00	opqdonut	yep, that was it
07:00	opqdonut	seems like my xmodmap has rotted
07:04	learner_	learner_: Answering my own question. There is no namespace called "clojure.core.logic.set". But that is something "swannodette" hoping to have. Ref: http://swannodette.github.io/2013/03/09/logic-programming-is-underrated/
07:06	snake-john	I am wondering why the reader macro #' for (var symbol) was introduced. even in clojure.core I see it only used 6 times. is it really used that heavily in clojure programming?
07:07	learner_	,(println "test")
07:07	clojurebot	test\n
07:08	arcatan	snake-john: i use it quite often to refer private variables from repl
07:10	snake-john	arcatan: so it is more used when you are interactively checking your code. i see. thanks
07:10	hyPiRion	or if you alter the var itself
07:11	opqdonut	I'm not sure it needs to be a reader macro, it could be a normal macro (/ special form)
07:12	hyPiRion	Sure, but what are the downsides of having it as a reader macro?
07:12	opqdonut	I for one would prefer (deref (var foo.bar/quux)) to @#'foo.bar/quux
07:12	opqdonut	:)
07:34	noncom	is anyone here well-aware of Aleph?
07:52	learner_	How to exclude certain functions from clojure.core package when on REPL ?
07:57	snake-john	maybe (ns your-name-space (:refer-clojure :exclude [+]))
07:57	kmicu	$google clojure exclude
07:57	lazybot	[ClojureDocs - clojure.core/refer-clojure] http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/1.2.0/clojure.core/refer-clojure
08:05	schmir	is there a way to require some packages without polluting the current namespace? i.e. I like to load a package but I don't need a name for it
08:05	schmir	:refer with an empty list probably
08:06	hyPiRion	schmir: you don't need to refer at all
08:06	hyPiRion	,(require '[clojure.string])
08:06	clojurebot	nil
08:06	hyPiRion	,(clojure.string/join ", " ["A" "B" "C"])
08:06	clojurebot	"A, B, C"
08:07	schmir	hyPiRion: but that put's clojure.string in the current namespace
08:08	hyPiRion	schmir: hm, but why would you load the package in the first place then?
08:08	hyPiRion	side effects?
08:09	schmir	(require ... :refer ()) does what I want
08:09	schmir	hyPiRion: I'm registering a function in another module
08:10	schmir	hyPiRion: should probably load the code dynamically...somehow..
08:10	schmir	hyPiRion: yes, side effects
08:12	arcatan	doesn't even (require '[foo :refer ()]) add foo to the current namespace?
08:13	schmir	arcatan: yes, it does..damn
08:20	bja	nvm, ritz takes a port
08:25	learner_	snake-john: Thanks for your answer about excluding certain functions from clojure.core when on REPL. It works!
08:26	hyPiRion	schmir: to be fair, I wouldn't worry too much about that
08:26	learner_	kmicu: Yes, the first thing I do is googling before I trouble anybody on IRC. But I couldn't understand how to do on REPL. snake-john: helpmed me. Thanks
08:26	hyPiRion	unless you'd explicitly want to load it AND keep it out, it's not that dangerous if it's possible to refer to it from the current ns
08:27	schmir	hyPiRion: yes, probably doesn't matter
09:05	fmw	hello, I'm having an issue when trying to use a checkouts directory in my Leiningen 2.2 project directory. When I run lein classpath, the classpath seems fine, but when I compile I'm getting a FileNotFoundException
09:06	ro_st	have you lein install ed the checkout-ed project?
09:07	fmw	ro_st: no, that might be the proble,
09:07	ro_st	that catches me every time :-)
09:07	Anderkent	eh, why do you need to lein install it?
09:07	ro_st	to put the .pom into your .m2
09:09	Anderkent	Hm, I can see how you'd need that to package your stuff, but needing to do it to get a compile going is strange
09:10	ro_st	checkouts leverage the deps system, and the deps system is built on top of maven, and maven needs it to be in your local repository before it can continue
09:10	jonasen	ro_st: I think the point of checkouts is to not have to "lein install" on every change
09:11	fmw	ro_st: yes, that fixes it
09:11	ro_st	you don't have to do it on every change
09:11	ro_st	just the first time, so that there's a stub in place
09:11	Anderkent	I'm also surprised that was a file not found exception rather than something sonatype related
09:11	Anderkent	ro_st: actually if it works as you say it does, you have to install after every dependency change in the checkouts project
09:12	jonasen	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/TUTORIAL.md#checkout-dependencies
09:12	Anderkent	I can see how that's the simplest implementation for lein, I guess
09:12	jonasen	first sentence
09:12	fmw	Anderkent: that was because I removed the dependency from my project.clj
09:12	ro_st	Anderkent: what jonasen just said :-)
09:12	Anderkent	ro_st: jonasen: huh? It's not the first sentence (it's the third)
09:13	ro_st	pedant!
09:13	Anderkent	first one is about not having to install, so I think that was adressed to you :)
09:13	fmw	a follow-up question: I currently need to have all the dependencies of the project I'm checking out in the project.clj of the current project as well
09:13	Anderkent	(third of the second paragraph, at that! :P)
09:13	ro_st	-waves hands in the air- whatevs :P
09:13	Anderkent	fmw: that shouldnt be necessary
09:13	fmw	why is it not picking up the dependencies of the checked out project automatically?
09:13	ro_st	it is, unfortunately.
09:14	Anderkent	huh!
09:14	ro_st	despite that annoyance, it's still too useful to not use
09:14	ro_st	nice article, stuartsierra. it's another arrow in the quiver
09:14	fmw	thanks for your help :)
09:14	Anderkent	how come it doesnt recognize them while fetching the checked-out project from m2?
09:14	stuartsierra	ro_st: Thanks.
09:15	ro_st	Anderkent[away: it runs the code in checkouts as though it were in src
09:15	maleghast	stuartsierra: what article..?
09:15	ro_st	i don't know. i'm a user of this stuff. i haven't read the code
09:15	maleghast	(I'd like to read it)
09:15	ro_st	http://stuartsierra.com/2013/07/28/the-amateur-problem
09:16	supersym	can someone give me a use-case for :inline / definline? I must not be getting 'it' :)
09:17	supersym	ro_st: which article?
09:17	ro_st	^^ link
09:17	supersym	oh
09:17	supersym	:S
09:17	supersym	lol nvm then
09:18	tgoossens	is there a function that does (reduce f (map g col)) already in the core libs?
09:18	maleghast	stuartsierra: Yep, ro_st is quite right, nice article - thanks.
09:19	stuartsierra	maleghast: Thanks.
09:22	supersym	frameworks can be highly dynamic, with a pluggable architecture and can allow for RAD... one may argue RAD doesn't belong in corporate software environments and might just facilitate the 'amateurs' but tbh, I would have never learned half the technologies/languages I know today without on occassion the jumping board of a framework to introduce entirely new concepts
09:22	supersym	I think here we talk about rather static frameworks though, as a one size fits all solution?
09:23	stuartsierra	I don't say frameworks are ALWAYS bad. Just mostly. :)
09:26	hyPiRion	I feel that many frameworks complect stuff. It's usually rather hard to switch some components of the framework.
09:27	hyPiRion	At least those frameworks I've worked with.
09:28	supersym	oh definitly... the thing is everything takes a learning curve, and it takes interest, pashion, desire for knowledge to dive in. Stuart is completely right on the whole 'dead simple' thing being a things that just obfuscates complexity
09:28	supersym	but for me, everything in clojure is dead-easy compared to say: JS
09:29	supersym	hand-crafting compiled/optimized stuff was just too much of a pain,... most advanced 'frameworks' in clojure solve problems I will probably never have to tackle :D
09:30	supersym	as long as people are aware it should be fine though, and if someone would only pay me $300 for a web site, I'd gladly use a framework for 1 hour job :P
09:31	ro_st	clojure's concision does lend itself to composing things as needed rather than importing framework.*. we use ring, compojure, hiccup for our website. don't need anything else
09:31	supersym	"these days of rapidly-changing technological capabilities" and maybe because you guys are in the US, but people (especially the web community) is slow to catch up
09:32	supersym	here anyway... people still use PHP for petes sake
09:32	ro_st	'here' ?
09:32	supersym	ro_st: right... just like when I switched from Windows -> Linux, I found I didn't need much of those old things, as I thought I did
09:33	supersym	thats why I like Arch probably
09:33	supersym	Netherlands... but I guess more places
09:33	supersym	I'd be surprised if we had more than 200 people of 16mil. that would actively use Clojure ><
09:34	ro_st	i'm in South Africa
09:34	edw	supersym: In so many areas of my life, I've found that's true: we worry that we need all sorts of things to be happy/successful and so we never clear everything off and start over, but the reality is that we don't need a whole lot.
09:34	ro_st	i'm doing my damndest to jam Clojure in any place i can get it
09:38	ro_st	edw: that's why getting rid of junk is so liberating :-)
09:39	supersym	wholeheartedly agree
09:39	edw	ro_st: I know! But then that just creates more room for books, and each apartment move becomes more painful!
09:40	hyPiRion	The trick is to learn concepts, not languages, frameworks or libraries.
09:40	ro_st	edw: -grin- books are special
09:40	supersym	so in principle I agree with the post, it gives food for thought, but on the other hand, I've seen crappy professional IT folks and extremely proficient 'end-users'
09:41	ro_st	hyPiRion nails it, basically
09:41	supersym	hyPiRion: probably true yes, Clojure opened up a whole can of math/philosophy/CS subjects I would have never else touched, but are highly rewarding
09:42	ro_st	concepts win. i use Clojure because it values the concepts/principles that it does
09:43	ro_st	and it makes them easy to employ. yes, easy -grin=
09:43	supersym	those are all expressions, the results of concepts, ideas, scientific discovery.. so reading the source can learn you a lot or provide hints of the underlying principles applied in other peoples work
09:45	supersym	ro_st: agreed... and rich hickey makes a very compelling case imho
09:46	supersym	so how much amateur is someone who realized that and ended up with clojure? I'd probably judge them as seasoned professionals :)
09:46	supersym	although in reality of course, if they dont do it for a living, they are not
09:47	ro_st	i'm a professional-not-using-OOP-any-more-er
09:48	ro_st	but an amateur Clojurist
09:48	ro_st	happy to say i've not attempted to build a framework though :-)
09:50	supersym	hehe yeah.. my point is this perhaps, how much framework is a tiny core that allows for easy extension?
09:51	ro_st	the problem is the framework assumes that it knows the entire problem phasespace
09:51	supersym	it wouldn't constitute a framework until someone deliberately names it that was... and has gathered an ecosphere of plugins/extensions around itself, and targets a specific problem?
09:51	supersym	right
09:51	ro_st	the best framework in Clojure so far, is Clojure itself
09:51	supersym	:)
09:54	mmarczyk	stuartsierra: could we turn off jdk 1.5 tests for core.rrb-vector for now? (pulls in reducers unconditionally; I suppose this could change in the future) pinging you since I'm not sure if I'm supposed to just tweak build.ci myself
09:57	stuartsierra	mmarczyk: Go ahead and change it in build.ci, then ping me to rebuild the Hudson configs.
09:57	mmarczyk	stuartsierra: ok, thanks
10:00	mmarczyk	stuartsierra: done
10:01	stuartsierra	mmarczyk: reloading Hudson...
10:02	mmarczyk	stuartsierra: cool, thanks!
10:27	noncom	when i load all files into a repl, ns in each file is not bound to the ns of that file. instead, it is bound to user ns or clojure.core.... How do I, when evaling a whole namespace, get the symbol or string of the name of that namespace?
10:28	noncom	like (ns my-ns) (defn that-ns [] ...) where (that-ns) returns 'my-ns or "my-ns"
10:29	Bronsa	noncom: (let [curr-ns ns] (defn that-ns [] curr-ns)) should do it
10:33	mmarczyk	stuartsierra: hm, somehow Hudson still seems to run the jdk 1.5 tests
10:33	stuartsierra	yeah, I saw that
10:34	stuartsierra	oh, 'cause I'm dumb
10:34	stuartsierra	Forgot to rebuild the configs before restarting Hudson.
10:34	mmarczyk	:-)
10:35	stuartsierra	mmarczyk: OK, restarting again with new configs.
10:36	mmarczyk	stuartsierra: thanks!
11:07	learner_	Newbie question here, any idea why this call fails
11:07	learner_	(let [rands (partition 4 (repeatedly 20 #(rand-int 100))) _ (println (map vector [:age :name :pos :cos] rands)) ] (map #(into {} %) (map vector [:age :name :pos :cos] rands)))
11:07	learner_	,(let [rands (partition 4 (repeatedly 20 #(rand-int 100))) _ (println (map vector [:age :name :pos :cos] rands)) ] (map #(into {} %) (map vector [:age :name :pos :cos] rands)))
11:07	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword>
11:10	seangrove	Bronsa: Out of curiosity, why are lines in tools.reader 1-indexed?
11:10	hyPiRion	,(let [rands (partition 4 (repeatedly 20 #(rand-int 100)))] (into {} (map vector [:age :name :pos :cos] rands))) ; Probably not what you had in mind, right?
11:10	clojurebot	{:age (80 45 64 68), :name (19 75 35 40), :pos (44 48 42 63), :cos (90 22 91 92)}
11:10	Anderkent[away	learner_: into expects a list of map entries, you give it a single map entry. Try #(into {} [%])
11:11	Anderkent[away	(or (apply hash-map %) )
11:12	justin_smith	learner_: ,(map (fn [numbers] (into {} (map vector [:age :name :pos :cos] numbers))) (partition 4 (repeatedly 20 #(rand-int 100))))
11:12	justin_smith	I think that is what you actually wanted
11:12	justin_smith	,(map (fn [numbers] (into {} (map vector [:age :name :pos :cos] numbers))) (partition 4 (repeatedly 20 #(rand-int 100))))
11:12	clojurebot	({:age 25, :name 55, :pos 19, :cos 63} {:age 77, :name 85, :pos 61, :cos 95} {:age 18, :name 92, :pos 5, :cos 50} {:age 28, :name 69, :pos 71, :cos 29} {:age 8, :name 13, :pos 3, :cos 22})
11:14	Bronsa	seangrove: i mimicked LineNumberingPushbackReader's behaviour
11:25	learner_	Thanks justin_smith: & Anderkent[away:
11:25	justin_smith	learner_: out of curiosity, what was the actual behavior you wanted?
11:27	learner_	justin_smith: You guessed what I wanted exactly. I was trying to learn from clojure.logic example https://gist.github.com/swannodette/5127144
11:35	egghead	is there anything you can do with core.async you couldn't do with futures/promises or is it just a different set of semantics for managing the same stuff
11:36	tbaldridge	egghead: how do you express a async stream of values with futures/promises?
11:36	tbaldridge	To quote Rich: "promises are the one-night-stand of async programming"
11:36	tbaldridge	"we're looking for more long-term relationships"
11:37	egghead	for some reason I was thinking a promise could be fulfilled multiple times
11:37	egghead	d'oh
11:37	egghead	thanks tbaldridge that's a good way to look at it
11:37	egghead	but then it seems to have much in common with something like FRP
11:38	piranha	well not exactly
11:38	piranha	a bit maybe, a channel is a bit like event stream
11:38	tbaldridge	egghead: it does, but the way it's all wired up is quite a bit different.
11:38	piranha	but then behaviours always have a value and you don't have similar notion in core.async
11:39	egghead	except event streams usually don't have that sort of 'rendevouz' semantics like core.async
11:39	piranha	I guess you could build FRP lib on top of core.async...
11:40	seangrove	Alright, good stuff. Got the tests passing for source-map fn-param column info. Most of the work was undoing damage I had caused by not understanding how shadowing was handled
11:40	egghead	ya, you can easily build weird little map/reduce/filter for the chans
11:40	tbaldridge	IMO, core.async is less functional than FRP, but it's also easier to understand
11:40	alandipert	need to add coordination, but then you're not getting much benefit from buffering
11:40	alandipert	(if any)
11:40	functionform	assuming you have a collection in form of ((col1) (col2) (col3) (col4)), how do you get it to be ((col1 + col2) (col3 + col4)) ?
11:40	egghead	Last night I wrote a websocket wrapper as a core.async channel
11:40	tbaldridge	Some FRP stuff is all about "let's take this normal function, and re-compile it to work with streams instead of values", that's some complex compiler magic
11:41	egghead	seemed kind of voodoo to be able to read from it and have it read from the remote server and write to send
11:42	egghead	it seems like you should be able to write something like Rx on top of core.async
11:42	nDuff	egghead: someone's done pretty much that.
11:42	bbloom	tbaldridge: i agree. FRP is oversold by the academic community
11:42	tbaldridge	egghead: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/clojure/L4nEVho555k/HqeDHeWbWmUJ
11:42	Anderkent[away	functionform: (map (partial apply concat) (partition 2 [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9] [0]]))
11:42	egghead	well, well, well
11:43	bbloom	tbaldridge: it was invented for dealing with data that represents continuous things, but discrete is always preferable to work with when you can choose
11:43	functionform	hm thats awesome
11:43	egghead	neat
11:43	functionform	i'm having trouble leaving behind the world of loop
11:43	alandipert	bbloom: that depends heavily on your use case, as it's really easy to go from continuous => discrete, but very hard to go the other direction
11:43	functionform	and for
11:44	tbaldridge	bbloom: agreed. Now what does have me thinking, is Sussman's work on propagators http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/44215
11:44	bbloom	alandipert: i know you're a big FRP fan :-) you'll just have to wait and see what i'm working on, but it's gonna be a while
11:44	alandipert	i think FRP blows but i'm in love with continuous propagation
11:44	bbloom	tbaldridge: oh yeah, propegators are awesome too
11:45	tbaldridge	bbloom: I havent' put any thought into it at all, but it seems that propagators on top of core.async may be possible.
11:45	functionform	thanks anderkent.
11:45	bbloom	tbaldridge: you mean building a distributed propagators evaluator? yeah, should be
11:45	bbloom	s/distributed/concurrent/ i guess
11:45	tbaldridge	yeah
11:46	bbloom	that'd be cool
11:46	bbloom	go for it :-)
11:47	bbloom	alandipert: by continuous propagation, you mean like you have your single atom source data & rerender the view from that like you guys do with hlisp, right?
11:47	bbloom	alandipert: in that case, i agree, but it's got nothing to do w/ FRP really :-P
11:49	squidz	what are the negatives to FRP besides it seemingly steep learning curve?
11:51	bbloom	nothing is wrong with FRP in general, it's just that it's the wrong tool for the job for UI, which is where everybody seems to want to apply it
11:51	bbloom	UI, outside of animation (which is a good domain for FRP) is inherently discrete
11:51	bbloom	your undo/redo menu has a LIST of items in it, not some flowing signal there :-P
11:52	piranha	bbloom: so you have an idea of something better?
11:52	Chousuke	I don't think FRP has any trouble with discrete things
11:52	piranha	i.e. still not having events, but skipping FRP?
11:53	tbaldridge	piranha: core.async?
11:53	bbloom	piranha: i do & i've discussed it a bit here in this channel w/ a few folks, but it's gonna take some time to bake
11:53	bbloom	Chousuke: see turing tarpits :-P
11:54	Chousuke	how is that relevant
11:54	squidz	or wrapping frp with clojure using core.async etc. to make it very simple/intuitive
11:54	Chousuke	I mean, if your UI has a list, then a signal of its contents is just its state.
11:54	bbloom	Chousuke: electricity is continuous, yet we need to introduce a clock to discrete the operation of our CPUs so us mortals can understand it
11:55	bbloom	descretize*
11:55	arrdem	gah where's aperiodic... his blog's down and I need a screen cheat sheet :P
11:55	piranha	tbaldridge: well core.async as it is right now won't give you continuous propagation, won't give you a proper source of information, just events to consume; I've tried doing UI with Go and I don't think that this level of abstraction is right
11:55	bbloom	Chousuke: sure, i understand the idea, i'm just not convinced that it's a useful way to think about the problem
11:55	dnolen	egghead: core.async is flexible enough to handle both what FRP libs and promise libs JS folks use for, w/ on one abstraction
11:55	dnolen	piranha: I disagree
11:55	piranha	bbloom: but changes of state in FRP could be discrete (and usually are, it's not like your string 'hello' slowly changes to 'world')
11:56	dnolen	piranha: and I think know sources and destinations is an anti pattern in UI programming.
11:56	piranha	dnolen: I would love to see UI written in core.async :)
11:56	dnolen	s/know/knowing
11:56	Chousuke	bbloom: then applying a transformation to the list is just a transformation to the signal, and any updates are reflected automatically
11:56	dnolen	piranha: yeah I've been working on this a bit, I wouldn't go back to plain JS or JS w/ just promises or just the reactive style.
11:56	bbloom	then you introduce databinding & suddenly your signal graph is cyclical
11:57	bbloom	so you have to introduce dampeners, to eliminate feedback loops
11:57	bbloom	and now time is central to everything you do all the time
11:57	bbloom	it's callback speghetti just the same
11:58	Chousuke	bbloom: note that list signal should be separate from the actual listview UI element "signal" that gets drawn
11:59	bbloom	any design that relies on heroic programmer effort to enforce a particular decomposition means that the primitives don't compose usefully (for the problem domain)
11:59	bbloom	this is the same issue w/ callbacks
11:59	egghead	but aren't UIs a continuous stream of events
11:59	egghead	usually user input and network events?
12:00	tbaldridge	egghead: That's pretty much the way the Pedestal UI models things
12:00	Chousuke	bbloom: I suppose the issue is that FRP is a very general technique. you can use it for data flow that involves no UI whatsoever.
12:01	bbloom	Chousuke: that's why i mentioned turing tarpits: it's a very general technique that is not well suited to a large number of problems people are trying to solve with it. that's not to say there arent' areas where it's super useful
12:01	bbloom	tbaldridge: my primary complaint about pedestal is that it requires the programmer to manually compose the dataflow graph, which seems laborious and error prone
12:01	bbloom	the externalization of state, however, greatly helps by enabling the replay & other debugging tools
12:02	bbloom	so it may very well still be a step up from everything else that is out there now
12:02	tbaldridge	bbloom: to rephrase "it's not easy enough" :-P
12:02	Chousuke	then if you have a program written using FRP, you will need to be careful not to confuse the flow of your data with the flow of user interactions.
12:03	bbloom	tbaldridge: that's not it. i just think that the dataflow graph is an implementation detail that a compiler should be generating :-)
12:03	Chousuke	I suppose I see your point. that can be tough to do right
12:04	egghead	I still don't know what problem pedestal is the solution to :p
12:04	tbaldridge	bbloom: I'm half serious there. IMO such compiler/macro magic should be left until the underlying concepts are proven to work. Build with data, optimize with macros.
12:04	egghead	tbaldridge: and what would YOU know about macros? :p
12:04	bbloom	tbaldridge: sure, i'd agree with that
12:05	egghead	maybe one day I'll understand what's going on in https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/async/impl/ioc_macros.clj
12:05	tbaldridge	bbloom: I've build several dataflow engines in the past, and IMO, text is just a horrible way to describe dataflow. IMO, we need something like LabView's GUI to do dataflow well.
12:06	bbloom	tbaldridge: heh, oh yeah, anything that's two dimensional kinda blows in text. i note how people struggle to correctly format cond forms :-)
12:10	Chousuke	I suppose the ideal with frp is that UI is stateless.
12:11	bbloom	Chousuke: state ABOUT the UI is fine, state INSIDE the UI is the problem
12:11	Chousuke	which would actually make animations explicitly dependent on a time signal
12:14	dnolen	tbaldridge: huh, interesting never heard of LabView, though I've seen lots of folks use MaxMSP to build interactive programs.
12:15	gfredericks	(inc lein-try)
12:15	lazybot	⇒ 1
12:15	Chousuke	efficient updates to a stateless UI might be a problem though, since if you for example update your list input data, the UI could be more efficient if it knew that an item was added to the end (instead of just "the list changed") which creates an unfortunate dependency between the UI and the data format.
12:15	Wild_Cat`	we used Labview to automate some of the QA process at my old job. Very pointy-clicky, but it worked.
12:16	Chousuke	so you would have to model an "item enters" event and then pipe that to list append and listview redraw behaviours
12:16	Chousuke	and then your data is no longer connected to the UI directly :/
12:28	dnolen	CLJS switched to tools reader (thx again seangrove & Bronsa)
12:29	seangrove	dnolen: Thanks
12:29	alandipert	is there a way to generate an inner class in clojure?
12:31	hiredman	there are no inner classes outside of javac, as far as I understand the jvm
12:31	dnolen	seangrove: how are the other source map bits going?
12:31	jonasen	bbloom: transduce is ready to be pulled I think. Or is there something more to be done?
12:32	seangrove	dnolen: I'm working on them now, though I shouldn't be, really. Made a lot of progress and the diff is still pretty small, but have a few failing tests.
12:32	bbloom	jonasen: just waiting for me to pull it down, test it, etc. i'm doing some client work now, so it'll have to wait a tad
12:32	seangrove	Working on the foo.ns_shadow_test tests now
12:32	bbloom	jonasen: thanks!
12:33	dnolen	seangrove: ha! k cool
12:33	jonasen	bbloom: ok, no problem. The fipp work was pretty easy. But I think I found a cljs bug
12:33	bbloom	jonasen: nice. what's the bug?
12:34	jonasen	(r/reduce + (map inc [1 2 3])) throws. LazySeq does not implement IReduce
12:35	bbloom	jonasen: gah. dnolen will surely accept a patch for that :-)
12:35	dnolen	bbloom: jonasen: fixing right now
12:36	jonasen	dnolen: cool!
12:43	seangrove	dnolen: would appreciate a heads up here https://gist.github.com/sgrove/6105574 looks like ns_shadow_test/bar in the cljs -> js compile goes fine, but it gets mangled on the second (simple/advanced) compile
12:43	seangrove	Is there some obvious disambiguation that happens that I've missed?
12:45	seangrove	Ah, nevermind
12:46	dnolen	seangrove: that output looks wrong to me even for no optimizations
12:46	seangrove	I assume the function param has to be munged to avoid the collision with the ns
12:46	dnolen	seangrove: yes absolutely
12:46	seangrove	That's what I was missing, shadowing the ns properly
12:46	seangrove	Need to get more clojure-language hackers here in SF so this is easier to do in person
12:48	bbloom	seangrove: do you have a github account?
12:48	seangrove	bbloom: sgrove
12:49	bbloom	seangrove: you should update your email addresses or fix your gitconfig
12:49	bbloom	github can't match the patch's metadata to your account
12:50	seangrove	bbloom: I'll take a look at it later tonight, thanks for the heads up. Probably set it 4 or 5 years ago, haven't thought about it since.
12:51	bbloom	s@bushi.do
12:51	bbloom	is what's on the patch :-)
12:54	dnolen	seangrove: the ns collision stuff is present in the munge fn
12:54	gfredericks	does anybody know how to test a specific namespace in the clojure repo?
12:55	gfredericks	mvn test <something>?
12:55	hiredman	hah!
12:55	dnolen	jonasen: lazy seq issue fixed in master
12:56	seangrove	bbloom: Ok, added the email to my github account, thanks
12:57	babilen	cemerick: Thanks for closing the drawbridge licensing issue that promptly -- It would also be nice if every source file could mention its license and include a header (for the EPL) such as https://www.refheap.com/17010 - Merci!
12:58	cemerick	babilen: Sure thing. I won't add headers like that though, I find them pretty irritating.
13:00	babilen	cemerick: Alright, your call. The important bit (actually shipping the license text as required by the license) has been taken care of. I wonder why so many projects opt to ship the html text though. Thought it would be more common to find a plain text version in LICENSE :)
13:00	babilen	cemerick: thanks again
13:03	bbloom	cemerick: +1 for fuck those annoying top of file license comment blocks
13:03	clgv	bbloom: actually only in 50% of the drawbridge files ;)
13:04	pjstadig	they can be useful if someone wants to use a file or two from your project
13:04	babilen	bbloom: They make it much easier to figure out the license if somebody decides to copy an entire file from once project to another.
13:04	pjstadig	makes it clear what is license how
13:04	alandipert	license meta, for licensing on a per-form basis
13:05	cemerick	clgv: shit, that's what I get for copy/pasting! :-P
13:05	bbloom	alandipert: nah, licensing has dynamic extent, not lexical :-)
13:05	babilen	I don't think that licensing should be treated as that unimportant and it is easy to hide/fold those license headers away so they don't really bug you
13:05	alandipert	lexical is better because then we can have license combinators
13:05	pjstadig	bbloom: clojure.core/license
13:06	pjstadig	alandipert: but then you'd have to take the license as an argument to every function?
13:06	hiredman	babilen: the first step there is not putting the headers in all caps
13:06	bbloom	alandipert: we were just discussing delimited dynamic extent here last night. you can have combinators then
13:06	Chousuke	The solution is a license monad
13:06	babilen	I mean I just found a bunch of Clojure projects that do not comply with the EPL in that they don't ship the license text in source copies
13:06	pjstadig	i like where this is going
13:06	cemerick	babilen: In general, if I publish code publicly, I really don't care what people do with it. :-)
13:06	hiredman	pjstadig: obviously we'll need letrec for that
13:06	babilen	hiredman: I simply copied that part from the EPL
13:06	pjstadig	hiredman: lol
13:06	bbloom	monads are macro expressible in terms of delimited continuations! :-)
13:07	Chousuke	Or if you implement it as an indexed monad, you can implement bind so that you can only compose compatibly licensed functions
13:07	bbloom	babilen: yup, i'm totally non-compliant
13:07	babilen	cemerick: Well, then use an appropriate license for that (MIT might suit you, EPL unfortunately has certain requirements (but you know that))
13:07	Chousuke	and produce correctly-licenced result functions
13:07	babilen	bbloom: I fail to see how that is a good thing
13:08	babilen	(let alone something to be proud of)
13:08	bbloom	babilen: i didn't say it was a good thing or that i'm proud of it
13:08	bbloom	i blame technomancy & lein! defaulting to the EPL and not including the license in the template
13:08	pjstadig	guys if we're going to fight about something can we fight about the CA instead?
13:08	cemerick	babilen: yeah, I started using MIT in a lot of stuff lately. The "EPL, just like Clojure" somehow became a meme some years ago, and a lot of people unfortunately freak out when they see a Clojure library that isn't EPL.
13:08	pjstadig	i guess i just lost the CA game
13:09	bbloom	i've been meaning to just switch (almost) everything to MIT
13:09	babilen	cemerick: I saw that, makes perfect sense!
13:10	bbloom	i wish github helped w/ licensing, but i can assume they are worried about the legal implications there
13:10	pjstadig	the problem is software patents, and MIT is silent about them
13:10	bbloom	^^ what pjstadig said
13:10	pjstadig	EPL is nice because it deals with patents
13:12	bbloom	http://www.scala-lang.org/node/146 <- what license is that?
13:12	bbloom	looks like 3 clause bsd
13:16	babilen	bbloom: Good point about the lein default, I might ask them to include it :)
13:16	cemerick	bbloom: they forgot to edit "THE REGENTS" out of the last block :-P
13:16	bbloom	lol
13:16	bbloom	nice.
13:17	hiredman	the scala regents
13:20	pjstadig	i wanna be a clojure regent
13:20	pjstadig	can i be a clojure regent?
13:21	stuartsierra	Clojure has no regents, only agents.
13:24	llasram	You could always create a library named `alchemy` which included reagents
13:28	Bronsa	seangrove: dnolen I just noticed that clojure and clojurescript returned different things for (namespace 'foo/bar/baz) so it was a bad idea to have that test anyway
13:28	dnolen	Bronsa: agreed
13:29	bbloom	Bronsa: i don't know if it was that specific test, but the namespace & name functions in cljs were bugged w/ respect to symbols named '/
13:30	bbloom	there was a search for / from the wrong side, so you got something like namespace "foo/" and name "" instead of "foo" and "/"
13:32	paraseba	can somebody help me understand why lazy-seq behaves like this? https://gist.github.com/paraseba/6105728
13:32	bbloom	paraseba: move the cons outside the lazy-seq
13:32	bbloom	(cons n (lazy-seq …))
13:33	bbloom	i think that would fix it
13:33	hiredman	no
13:33	bbloom	ok or no, i didn't look at it too carefully. trust hiredman :-)
13:33	hiredman	the issue is because of the map identity, you have something like O(n) more stack frames to realized the nth element
13:34	paraseba	bbloom: that still stack overflows
13:34	bbloom	hiredman: as yes, that makes sense
13:35	hiredman	so the first "rest" has one call to identity to realize the value, the next "rest" has 2, etc, etc, etc
13:36	paraseba	but are all those calls nested?
13:36	hiredman	(cons x (cons (identity x) (cons (identity (indentity x)) ...)))
13:37	hiredman	paraseba: map creates a lazy-seq, so the result of a call to map is effectively a promise to give you each value of the input with the function applied to it, when you ask for it
13:39	paraseba	hiredman: I don't fully understand how it coud be nested identity applications. If instead of nested it were inc, would I get a number incremented many times?
13:40	hiredman	you have a recursive function
13:40	hiredman	follow it through with the substitution model
13:41	paraseba	I'll try that
13:41	paraseba	thanks
13:41	Chousuke	map is lazy so the 5000 identity calls all happen at once to get the first value of the seq.
13:41	Chousuke	or maybe last, I might be inverting the logic in my head
13:41	hiredman	you basically end up with (map identity (map identity (map identity ...)))
13:42	paraseba	yes, that's how I imagine it hiredman , but I don't see why that would overflow the stack, since each one of those map calls returns a promise without nesting the stack
13:43	paraseba	Chousuke: to get the first element of the seq there is nothing to be done, it's just n
13:43	hiredman	paraseba: yeah, but as soon as you try to realize it (for say, printing, or getting the 5000th element) the promises all come due
13:44	paraseba	that makes sense hiredman I think I get it now, thanks
14:33	seangrove	tbaldridge going after trolls on twitter with some admirable patience
14:33	tbaldridge	seangrove: rofl, I shouldn't, but it's so hard not too.
14:35	tbaldridge	well guys, it's been real, but according to Twitter, Clojure is dead, so I'm moving to Ruby now...
14:35	bbloom	lol
14:36	rkneufeld	Raynes: glad you like lein-try
14:36	bbloom	it's so funny to me that people 1) don't think lisp can evolve and 2) think that internal beauty is the #1 priority
14:36	Raynes	rkneufeld: <3
14:37	alandipert	Raynes, rkneufeld: group hug you guys, bring it in
14:37	rkneufeld	some kind of "exec this too" would be awesome
14:37	Raynes	hugs*
14:37	Raynes	In my accent it sounds the same.
14:37	Raynes	:3
14:39	gfredericks	tbaldridge: that list of languages he posted for comparison does not include any lisps, which I think is relevant to your libraries claim -- i.e., macros specifically take the pressure off of innovating the language
14:39	gfredericks	some of the pressure*
14:39	tbaldridge	as does most of the rest of lisp. No need to improve the syntax of a language when you have sexprs and macros.
14:40	bbloom	tbaldridge: so it's interesting. racket & most lisps have "syntactical sugar" for cons cells
14:40	bbloom	(x y z), (x . (y z)), etc
14:40	bbloom	they have syntax support for a particular concrete data structure
14:41	bbloom	and clojure added support for data structures of parameterized types
14:41	bbloom	that just seems like a no brainer to me, even in theory
14:41	tbaldridge	yeah, as well as racket being a "everything included" language. They have a ton more to support with a custom GC, typesystem, packages, etc.
14:41	tbaldridge	Last I checked, even their FRP implementation is in the main language source tree
14:42	bbloom	racket is a great project w/ some amazing work done on it, but the goals are just so different
14:42	bbloom	those guys are studying languages (and we need them!) we're trying to build real things (and they need us!)
14:42	bbloom	:-)
14:42	seangrove	Is there a way to see what form (fn* nil (apply bug rest__5789#)) will take when it's expanded/parsed all the way out? It seems like there's at the very least a (do) form that gets wrapped around the body
14:43	tbaldridge	fn* is a builtin
14:43	seangrove	This is causing me some trouble with some source-maps and lower-level js-forms like js-obj
14:43	tbaldridge	so it's all in the compiler parsing
14:44	seangrove	hrm....
14:44	tbaldridge	the parsing code is here: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/analyzer.clj#L379
14:44	tbaldridge	that probably doesn't help
14:44	Bronsa`	seangrove: and here's your do https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/analyzer.clj#L375
14:44	seangrove	tbaldridge: Yeah, looking at that right now already ;)
14:45	seangrove	Bronsa: ah!
14:45	seangrove	Thank you, I had skipped over that looking for (do ...
14:55	bosie	anyone know industries in germany using clojure?
15:06	koderde	Whats a good logging framework regarding: concurrency, production, logrotation, performance?
15:07	hiredman	any of them? I think logback is supposed to be the new java logging hotness
15:08	koderde	hiredman: thanks for the tip I will have a look ...
15:08	pjstadig	hiredman: no. it's log4j2
15:08	justin_smith	log4j2 updated to use disruptor and is blazingly fast, or so I hazily recall
15:09	hiredman	logback is what pedestal uses, which isn't so much of an endorsement, just a place to steal config files from
15:09	pjstadig	justin_smith: inc
15:09	justin_smith	http://logging.apache.org/log4j/2.x/manual/async.html it actually scales in performance with more processor for example
15:09	justin_smith	we should get more clojure stuff using disruptor
15:10	hiredman	shrug yet another silver bullet that people can use on nails
15:10	tbaldridge	what are you using that requires so much throughput that disruptor would help?
15:10	clojurebot	excusez-moi
15:11	hiredman	tbaldridge: some people aren't using datomic so in order to have a history they have to dump everything to logs? I guess?
15:11	tbaldridge	notice that the use case for which disruptor was designed had a unique problem. Their CPU bottleneck was dominated by the performance of their queues
15:12	tbaldridge	hiredman: lol, perhaps
15:12	tbaldridge	"I don't need DB history, that's what I have flat files for...."
15:13	jkj	Raynes: laser man?
15:13	Raynes	?
15:14	jkj	Raynes: is the laser library yours?
15:14	Raynes	Yes.
15:15	jkj	i'm having the dumb today. cannot fragment to html
15:15	Raynes	I've been afflicted with the dumb from time to time.
15:15	Raynes	Do you have a failing example I can look at?
15:15	jkj	just a moment
15:16	jkj	Raynes: https://gist.github.com/jkjuopperi/34f79db2832a43c79dd4
15:17	jkj	there is the fragment... and the code
15:17	jkj	moment
15:18	Raynes	jkj: Can you also show me the calling code that causes the exception as well as the exception itself?
15:19	jkj	Raynes: thank you for your help. the dumb passed the moment I asked for help :P
15:19	Raynes	:p
15:19	Raynes	That's how the dumb usually works. It's a serious disease.
15:19	jkj	Raynes: the problem was that laser/fragment returns a vector with the node map inside
15:20	jkj	Raynes: and i ofcourse concatenated the vectors and not the nodes inside them
15:20	Raynes	fragment-to-html is meant to work on exactly what fragment returns. You shouldn't have to concatenate things.
15:38	jkj	Raynes: laser is working splendidly btw. migrated from enlive. just need to learn to read the apidocs it seems
15:39	Raynes	Good to hear it. :)
15:39	Raynes	The API is changing quite a bit in 2.0.0
15:39	jkj	Raynes: i misused to-html and missed fragment-to-html :P
15:39	Raynes	Feel free to play around with 2.0.0-SNAPSHOT if you aren't worried about a few bugs and things changing on you.
15:39	clojurebot	but I don't feel using a map or set is neat
15:39	Raynes	I agree clojurebot. Very observant of you.
15:40	tbaldridge	clojurebot: scatterbrained much?
15:40	clojurebot	Huh?
15:41	tbaldridge	as I thought
15:44	troydl	Greetings; Opinion/convention question: I'm writing a function that takes a collection of maps and a key and returns a collection of maps with duplicates of that key removed. I'm wondering what I should do with the maps in the collection in which the given key doesn't exist. Should I filter them all out or leave them all in?
15:45	noonian	what do you mean duplicates of that key removed? you can't have duplicate keys in a single map
15:46	troydl	Sorry, I mean if two maps both have a key and their value is equal, return only one of them
15:46	troydl	one of the maps* not the values
15:48	noonian	and if they are not the same value would you leave both maps there?
15:49	noonian	it depends on the assumptions you want to be able to make about the value that is returned from the function imo
15:51	troydl	Basically I want a function like (distinct [coll]) that takes a keyword name and returns only those in the collection with distinct values on that key
15:54	troydl	So '({:a 1 :b 2} {:a 2 :b 2} {:a 1 :b 3}) passed in with [:a] would return ({:a 1 :b 2} {:a 2 :b 2}) or ({:a 2 :b 2} {:a 1 :b 3}) but not all 3
15:56	ucb	troydl: how would it decide which ones to return?
15:58	troydl	Whichever comes first I think. The other keys and values aren't important.
16:01	troydl	As long as the values were distinct on the :a key
16:04	noonian	troydl: I would either not return any maps that were missing the key, or return all of them
16:04	troydl	Right that's what I was thinking, I just couldn't decide between those two options :P
16:06	troydl	I guess I'll go with not returning them if they don't have the key for now and if a situation pops up where it makes sense the other way I'll change it. Thanks.
16:06	noonian	np
16:08	gfredericks	easiest way to canonically pretty-print some standard edn data?
16:08	rhg135	prn-str?
16:08	bbloom	define "canonically"
16:08	gfredericks	bbloom: I don't have to worry about ordering on unordered collections
16:08	gfredericks	rhg135: not very pretty
16:08	rhg135	true lol
16:09	rhg135	but humanly pareable ;)
16:09	gfredericks	rhg135: also not canonical I don't think
16:09	rhg135	hmm
16:09	rhg135	multimethods?
16:09	clojurebot	multimethods is what separates the boy from the man.
16:10	rhg135	nice bot
16:10	gfredericks	my use case is I'm checking some data into my git repo and I want git to be able to give me useful info about changes
16:10	llasram	mmm... robot sexism
16:10	gfredericks	clojurebot: forget multimethods is what separates the boy from the man.
16:10	clojurebot	Ok.
16:10	rhg135	protocols?
16:10	clojurebot	http://whiley.org/2012/02/29/a-problem-of-decoupling/ describes a problem solvable by protocols
16:10	gfredericks	it's not really even a worthwhile thing to say apart from the gender aspects
16:15	gfredericks	maybe I don't need records so I could just manually combine sorted-map with clojure.pprint
16:20	duck11231	multimethods are what separates the boys from the men at runtime by comparing the results of a dispatch function against a set of values
16:20	gfredericks	(defmulti foo age)
16:20	gfredericks	no wait
16:21	gfredericks	(defmulti foo (partial < age-of-majority))
16:22	duck11231	Yeah, I felt myself reaching a bit far for that one
16:23	gfredericks	are multimethods faster than protocols implemented with extend?
16:23	tbaldridge	gfredericks: no
16:23	gfredericks	tbaldridge: that's good to know
16:24	tbaldridge	gfredericks: there's some other stuff in here, but here's some relative numbers: https://github.com/mikera/matrix-api/blob/master/src/test/clojure/clojure/core/matrix/calling_benchmark.clj
16:25	clj_newb_2345	is there a way to do a non-blocking read in core.async ?
16:25	gfredericks	tbaldridge: wait I think I stated my question backwards
16:25	clj_newb_2345	i.e. a function that immediately returns either [:ok value] or [:nothing] ?
16:25	gfredericks	and these benchmarks say the opposite of what I misinterpreted you to mean
16:26	tbaldridge	gfredericks: multimethods are slower than any other Clojure polymorphic system. Granted you won't notice most of the time, but they are quite slow
16:27	gfredericks	tbaldridge: so I'm curious why the extended-call is faster -- are they not both hash lookups?
16:27	gfredericks	I guess protocols don't have to muck with the global hierarchy
16:27	duck11231	IIRC, it's because the multimethod has an extra fn call
16:27	gfredericks	duck11231: you mean because the dispatch function isn't inlined?
16:28	duck11231	well, yeah
16:28	gfredericks	that makes sense
16:28	gfredericks	well this is good to know. I kept hearing "protocols are faster" and nobody seemed to think it worth clarifying that they're faster even with extend
16:28	gfredericks	which seems an obvious question to me
16:29	tbaldridge	gfredericks: protocols also use a form of inline caching,
16:29	gfredericks	what does that cache? the inheritance details?
16:30	duck11231	I think it's very interesting this note about using a custom class with an optimized hashCode being faster than vector comparison
16:30	gfredericks	since it's not a direct map from (class x) to impl?
16:30	duck11231	I'm going to have to play with that
16:30	tbaldridge	no, the first time a callsite is hit, it caches the function it will execute, after that it's mostly a case of "is the object we're handed an int? if so use the cached fn, otherwise hit the extension map to find the fn to execute"
16:31	tbaldridge	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inline_caching
16:31	gfredericks	oh okay -- so only works on repeated calls of the same type
16:31	tbaldridge	yes
16:31	tbaldridge	but also like "repeated calls of the same time in the same call site"
16:32	tbaldridge	there's a ton of black magic involved here, and last time I talked to Rich about it, I realized that I knew very little about how it worked. :-\|
16:32	gfredericks	oh I missed the "callsite" detail -- I get it now.
16:34	pcarrier	where am I stupid here?
16:34	pcarrier	,(map key [{:a 1 :b 2} 3 {:a 4 :b 5} 6])
16:34	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
16:34	gfredericks	pcarrier: what do you want it to do?
16:34	pcarrier	gfredericks:
16:34	gfredericks	key doesn't work on maps or numbers
16:34	tbaldridge	you probably want keys
16:34	gfredericks	even so
16:34	gfredericks	would fail on numbers
16:34	pcarrier	=> '({:a 1 :b 2} {:a 4 :b 5})
16:35	gfredericks	pcarrier: you want to filter out the non-maps?
16:35	pcarrier	no no no
16:35	pcarrier	oooh wait nevermind.
16:35	pcarrier	brainfart.
16:35	pcarrier	,(map key {{:a 1 :b 2} 3 {:a 4 :b 5} 6}) <--- actually work fine :)
16:35	clojurebot	({:a 1, :b 2} {:a 4, :b 5})
16:36	gfredericks	ah ha
16:36	pcarrier	I'm not such a huge fan of all those literals (but I love the destructuring let)
16:37	pcarrier	,(map #({:val (val %)}) {{:a 1 :b 2} 3 {:a 4 :b 5} 6})
16:37	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentArrayMap>
16:38	pcarrier	what am I missing here?
16:39	pcarrier	it's a stupid example, but I expect => '({:val 3} {:val 6})
16:39	tbaldridge	pcarrier: don't use the #() when returning a map
16:40	tbaldridge	pcarrier: what you're saying is "create this hashmap, and now call it. instead use (fn [v] {:val (val v)})
16:40	tbaldridge	pcarrier: or better yet, use (fn [[_ v]] {:val v})
16:40	rhg135	or #hash-map :val ...)
16:40	rhg135	#(hash-map...)*
16:41	gfredericks	I prefer not using tricks like that to return literals from #()
16:41	gfredericks	seems like it can only be confusing
16:41	pcarrier	hmmm. that didn't feel very tricky to me. but thanks :)
16:41	tbaldridge	that works, but the but the destructuring method is cleaner. and somewhat avoids the smurf problem.
16:41	pcarrier	well it doesn't work.
16:42	justin_smith	#(identity {:val (val %)})
16:42	tbaldridge	ick
16:42	pcarrier	yuck
16:42	Bronsa	#(or {:val (val %)}) :)
16:42	justin_smith	heh
16:42	pcarrier	yuckier
16:42	gfredericks	#(do {:val (val %)})
16:42	tbaldridge	grumbles how people want to use crazy syntax instead of using (fn [x])
16:42	justin_smith	I often do (def id identity) because something that useful should not be verbose
16:42	pcarrier	ok, let's stop here please.
16:43	gfredericks	there's actually a funny set of clojure things that act like identity on one arg
16:43	tbaldridge	just use fn people, it's not a dirty word.
16:43	gfredericks	$findfn 42 42
16:43	lazybot	[clojure.set/union clojure.set/intersection clojure.set/difference clojure.core/time clojure.core/dosync clojure.core/long clojure.core/short clojure.core/+ clojure.core/* clojure.core/doto clojure.core/unchecked-long clojure.core/+' clojure.core/unchecked-short cloj... https://www.refheap.com/17018
16:43	Bronsa	tbaldridge: nobody actually uses those tricks, it's just for fun :)
16:43	pcarrier	omg omg how can I run findfn locally?
16:43	gfredericks	well swearjure has to use tricks
16:43	gfredericks	pcarrier: pm the bot
16:43	pcarrier	gfredericks: no I meant on my machine :)
16:44	gfredericks	or clone lazybot and try to find that code somewhere
16:44	tbaldridge	oh crap....that means I can do this
16:44	tbaldridge	,(+ {:foo :bar})
16:44	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: Cannot cast clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap to java.lang.Number>
16:44	tbaldridge	oh good
16:44	gfredericks	tbaldridge: I shoulda use a non number
16:44	tbaldridge	I was hoping that wasn't the case
16:44	gfredericks	$findfn :foo :foo
16:44	lazybot	[clojure.set/union clojure.set/intersection clojure.set/difference clojure.core/time clojure.core/dosync clojure.core/doto clojure.core/macroexpand-1 clojure.core/or clojure.core/comp clojure.core/-> clojure.core/macroexpand clojure.core/max clojure.core/identity clo... https://www.refheap.com/17020
16:44	pcarrier	$findfn {:a 1} {:a 1}
16:44	Bronsa	pcarrier: tbaldridge Raynes released findfn as a library if I'm not mistaken
16:44	lazybot	[clojure.set/union clojure.set/intersection clojure.set/difference clojure.core/time clojure.core/dosync clojure.core/doto clojure.core/destructure clojure.core/doall clojure.core/macroexpand-1 clojure.core/or clojure.core/comp clojure.core/-> clojure.core/macroexpan... https://www.refheap.com/17021
16:44	pcarrier	he he he.
16:45	Bronsa	yep -- https://github.com/Raynes/findfn
16:45	tbaldridge	lol, I like this method best, it's soooo clear on what's happening
16:45	pcarrier	,(io! {:a 1})
16:45	clojurebot	{:a 1}
16:45	gfredericks	,(-> :foo max min clojure.set/difference comp)
16:45	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set>
16:45	tbaldridge	,(macroexpand {:foo :bar})
16:45	clojurebot	{:foo :bar}
16:45	gfredericks	tbaldridge: unfortunately that has weird behavior on some inputs :P
16:46	tbaldridge	nah, we'll just put a warning in the readme "don't use seqs as inputs to this fn"
16:46	gfredericks	unless you are an expert
16:46	Bronsa	#(-> {:foo %}) looks quite nice actually
16:46	tbaldridge	lol
16:46	duck11231	"... because I hate typing fn"
16:46	tbaldridge	+1 duck11231
16:46	tbaldridge	(inc duck11231)
16:46	lazybot	⇒ 2
16:47	gfredericks	(def fn-is-a-long-word identity)
16:47	pcarrier	Bronsa: good catch, it totally does
16:47	pcarrier	#(-> ) does look really nice
16:48	gfredericks	there's basically nothing you can put there that doesn't look like a mistake
16:48	tbaldridge	pcarrier: just to be clear, if I saw that in a code review, I would not be happy.
16:49	tbaldridge	It's an abuse of both #() and ->
16:49	pcarrier	tbaldridge: yup.
16:49	Raynes	I'd punch you in the face.
16:49	Raynes	I don't mess around with unhappiness.
16:49	tbaldridge	rofl
16:52	duck11231	Of course, there's always (partial hash-map :foo)
16:53	tbaldridge	to really get what he wants though, it's actually (comp (partial hash-map :foo) val)
16:56	solus	Any help with this clojurescript code would be greatly appreciated:https://gist.github.com/anonymous/803534eb6496ffd7c36d
16:57	bpburns777	anyone one know what causes these exceptions Caused by: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/core__init.class or clojure/core.clj on classpath: Trying to call a clojure generated class from java from a nexus plugin.
16:58	solus	basically I want to find all the items that have data set on the server and set some checkbox elements to checked. However I get back DocumentFragments which dont have a setAttribute method
16:59	duck11231	solus: Are you sure you want reduce here and not just map?
16:59	solus	no I actually got that as a suggestion from someone else earlier this morning
17:00	solus	but I don't see any reason why it couldn't be map
17:00	tbaldridge	solus: if you use reduce you'll need two arguments to your fn
17:01	tbaldridge	solus: if you use map, it'll be lazy, so be sure to wrap in doall or something
17:02	solus	(doall (map (fn) collection) right
17:04	tbaldridge	solus: your problem is probably that reduce is handing you two args, and you're expecting one. This doesn't always result in an error in CLJS
17:04	tbaldridge	three cheers for the crappy JS VM
17:05	solus	I tried (doall (map (fn) collection)) and the error is gone but the dom isn't updated
17:06	duck11231	solus: does something like this work? https://gist.github.com/duck1123/2b69f37c621d8cfe03c5
17:07	Bronsa	solus: if you don't care for return type, just use a doseq btw
17:08	solus	duck1123: one second
17:11	solus	duck1123: no joy
17:12	duck1123	and did it log the elements you expected?
17:14	solus	I got a persistenthashset back
17:14	zerokarmaleft	in core.async, is there way to do something like alts!/alts!! on output?
17:15	bbloom	zerokarmaleft: yeah, that works. check the doc strings
17:15	bbloom	you can mix and match too
17:18	duck1123	solus: Do you happen to have a copy of colors and t you could provide? try logging element inside the doseq to make sure it's getting the items you want.
17:21	solus	I think its actually a problem with my php code
17:21	solus	apparently it doesnt want to set a class for my checkboxes
17:21	solus	....
17:21	solus	wth
17:23	duck1123	I have a sign here at my desk that says "Did you clear your cache?" I can't hold it up for you.
17:23	zerokarmaleft	bbloom: should selecting from multiple output flows be external to the state machine?
17:24	bbloom	zerokarmaleft: the various multiplexing forms will build the correct state machine for you with arbitrary mixing and nesting of input and output
17:24	bbloom	that's kinda the whole point :-)
17:26	zerokarmaleft	hmm, ok
17:27	snake-john	is there a easy way of printing the state-machine emited code (the result of fn emit-state-machine).
17:27	snake-john	I tried something like putting (map #(clojure.pprint/pprint %) (ioc/state-machine body 1 &env ioc/async-custom-terminators)) in the go macro. is there an easier way?
17:27	hiredman	,(doc macroexpand)
17:27	clojurebot	"([form]); Repeatedly calls macroexpand-1 on form until it no longer represents a macro form, then returns it. Note neither macroexpand-1 nor macroexpand expand macros in subforms."
17:29	snake-john	I tried macroexpand-1 but could not get a result with it. but maybe I did something wrong?!
17:30	hiredman	,(doc macroexpand)
17:30	clojurebot	"([form]); Repeatedly calls macroexpand-1 on form until it no longer represents a macro form, then returns it. Note neither macroexpand-1 nor macroexpand expand macros in subforms."
17:30	hiredman	,(doc macroexpand-1)
17:30	clojurebot	"([form]); If form represents a macro form, returns its expansion, else returns form."
17:34	solus	ok I was editing the wrong file
17:35	solus	thats what I get for not looking at this code for a month and a half
17:36	snake-john	hiredman: macroxpand-1 shows me the code now. thanks a lot!
18:43	mthvedt	for handling authentication in ring, is there anything out there besides friend worth looking at
18:56	justin_smith	is there a way to test if some value implements a specific protocol?
18:58	justin_smith	(comp (extends my/Protocol) class)
18:58	justin_smith	(answering my own question)
19:12	dward	there is a health/process monitor for network clusters and cloud vm networks written with lamina and aleph
19:12	dward	and I can't remeber it's name
19:13	ztellman	there is?
19:14	dward	zach, perfect person. I thought there was... I may be mistaken. I'm trying to persuade my boss to use lamina on a new service, and I wanted a case study to point to.
19:14	dward	if you don't know, then i'm probably mistaken
19:14	ztellman	haha, ok
19:14	dward	keep up the good work, lamina is awesome
19:14	ztellman	at Factual we're using it to ingest 25k qps, fwiw
19:15	ztellman	it's a really trivial service, but solid
19:15	bbloom	ztellman: nice!
19:15	Raynes	https://github.com/flatland/telemetry is a service that gets the crap beat out of it a lot, I think.
19:16	clj_newb_2345	has anyone used clojure or clojurescript for nexus 7 (or android more generally) apps ?
19:16	ztellman	oh, and geni's using it for a websocket broadcast medium, I think they have several thousand live connections at any given time
19:17	Raynes	Yeah, telemetry and https://github.com/flatland/hermes
19:17	Raynes	I think hermes is also an example of a very simple service that gets the crap beat out of it, similar to what ztellman described a moment ago.
19:18	Raynes	Lamina and turtles all the way down.
19:18	dward	hmmm I will check it out, I still have a lot of reading up to do.
19:19	ztellman	well, let me know if you have any questions
19:22	ztellman	huh, apparently a bit more than 25k lately: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/174179/various/diurnal.png
19:24	dward	ztellman well now I knwo where to find you, you'll never have a peaceful moment again.
19:24	dward	good stuff thanks for the figure
19:25	dward	i'm trying to build a deduplication engine that's basically a very simple bayesian inference tree that processes records from a stream comparing against a lucene index. It's been done but not well.
19:25	dward	With an aleph and lamina base, I think it would be fast as hell and could easily be written to scale to clusters
19:25	ztellman	so it's just a filter that's moderately expensive?
19:26	ztellman	or are you doing complicated things with the topology of the streams?
19:28	dward	ztellman: for now that's what it is, but my eventual goal is to turn it into a state machine. I want to use it to do an anlysis called markov chain monte carlo.
19:28	dward	so the topology could evolve to be very complicated, with possible recursion
19:28	ztellman	hmm
19:28	ztellman	well, you can do that, though to the extent that you can decouple the FSM and the topology, you should
19:29	ztellman	I've also got a simple performance-oriented FSM library incubating right now
19:29	ztellman	maybe that will be ready around when you need it
19:31	dward	hmm, i'll check it out, but my primary reason for using lamina would be to organize the dataflow, so i can extend my decision tree later on
19:32	ztellman	ok, that makes sense
19:32	ztellman	well, let me know if you end up doing that, it sounds interesting
19:34	dward	yes i will, if he picks it up, hopefully i can persuade my boss to opensource it. can you point me to your FSM library?
19:34	dward	have you released it yet?
19:35	ztellman	oh, not yet
19:36	dward	okay, i'll check back later, thanks for the input
20:03	scape	not sure what this is called,but I want to pass a type of a class in clojure into a function in a java library. so like this in java: assets = new AssetManager(); assets.load("data/ship.obj", Model.class); I have something like this in clojure: (doto (new AssetManager) (.load "data/ship.obj" whatdoiputhere?))
20:04	scape	to basically pass Model.class as an arg
20:04	justin_smith	(.load "data/ship.obj" (.class Model)) ?
20:04	scape	let me try that thanks :)
20:05	justin_smith	maybe just (class Model)
20:05	justin_smith	if .class literally returns its class
20:06	scape	it does return that class in java
20:06	justin_smith	so it may be that you want class rather than .class
20:06	justin_smith	because class works on anything, .class only if it explicitly has that method
20:08	justin_smith	,(class java.lang.Class)
20:08	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
20:08	justin_smith	(.class java.lang.Class)
20:09	justin_smith	,(.class java.lang.Class)
20:09	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: class for class java.lang.Class>
20:09	scape	(doto (new AssetManager) (.load "hex.obj" Model)) seemed to work, while (doto (new AssetManager) (.load "hex.obj" (class Model))) returned GdxRuntimeException No loader for type: Class com.badlogic.gdx.assets.AssetManager.load
20:10	scape	thanks for the help
20:10	justin_smith	glad you got it sorted out
20:11	scape	is there a good resource for java interop?
20:11	justin_smith	The Joy Of Clojure and Clojure Programming both have extensive info
20:11	scape	ok thanks!
20:12	justin_smith	(probably other books too, those are the ones I have)
20:12	scape	i have clojure prog. with emerick, i'll have to reread it
20:12	justin_smith	also, reading the source to clojure wrappers of java libs is very informative
20:13	justin_smith	page 357 in the emerick book
20:14	justin_smith	oh yeah, on that page it shows ClassName.class translates to ClassName
20:14	justin_smith	as we discovered
20:29	bbloom	you know you've been writing lisp for a while when you create a variable named "else" and stare at it funny, unsure if you are spelling that correctly b/c it looks odd
20:32	scape	nice, thanks for the page detail. rumaging bookcase :D
21:30	cmatheson	i'm trying to update a ref in a go block (maybe that's a bad idea), but it doesn't work (No such var: clojure.core/runInTransaction). should i be using the blocking core/async stuff instead? or is core.async incompatible with the other clojure concurrency features?
21:39	aje	Hello
21:41	aje	I am trying to install clojure on Debian wheezy
21:41	aje	I aodwnloaded the 1.5.1 stable zip from the clojure web site
21:42	SegFaultAX	aje: Easiest way to get Clojure is via Leiningen.
21:44	aje	And run: ant ... the compile dies with FileNotFoundEception could not locate clojure/test/generative/runner__init.class or clojure/test/generative/runner.clj on classpath
21:54	aje	Any ideas?
21:57	uris77	use Leiningen
22:02	xeqi	aje: run ./antsetup.sh
22:03	llasram	xeqi: They're trying to "install Clojure," which I think means they really do want Leiningen
22:04	xeqi	heh, true
22:06	llasram	aje: You know how e.g. for Python you install a program named "python" you use to do stuff with the Python language? For historical reasons, the Clojure equivalent of that program is named "lein" (for Leiningen)
22:07	gfredericks	let's just rename the language "leiningen" to clear up the confusion
22:07	llasram	aje: http://leiningen.org/ Unless you're a Debian package maintainer, you should download and install straight from there
22:07	llasram	(inc gfredericks)
22:07	lazybot	⇒ 29
22:08	llasram	That plan is so beautiful
22:09	aje	llasram: Thanks...
22:09	gfredericks	"Leiningen is a dialect of lisp designed to not set your hair on fire."
22:09	brehaut	lol
22:09	aje	Downloaded leiningen. Weird name for a piece of software ;)
22:09	brehaut	its an ant joke
22:09	aje	how?
22:09	clojurebot	with style and grace
22:09	gfredericks	$leiningen ants
22:09	gfredericks	$google leiningen ants
22:09	lazybot	[Leiningen Versus the Ants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leiningen_Versus_the_Ants
22:10	gfredericks	philgelburg has been naming projects after literary characters since before I knew how to read
22:11	aje	I see ...
22:14	xeqi	gfredericks: is your swearjure talk published?
22:29	gfredericks	xeqi: it's like the last one on the schedule
22:29	gfredericks	a couple more months I think
22:35	xeqi	blah
22:41	onr	ToxicFrog: just use java lol
22:43	ToxicFrog	onr: if I were reduced to that I'd rather solve it by hand
22:47	akurilin	If I do group-by with an object like a joda DateTime, will it internally use something like the hashcode to determine the value of the key to use for the resulting map?
22:48	bbloom	akurilin: it will use hash codes & equals. you have to give it objects that behave sensible under equality, which should include pretty much everything in joda
22:49	akurilin	bbloom, if I'm understanding the source for group-by correctly, it does an assoc on the map, which I believe uses whatever implementation of hash code and equals, as you suggested?
22:49	akurilin	*the result map
22:49	bbloom	yup
22:50	akurilin	that's one terse-ass function btw.
22:50	akurilin	oh Rich.
22:50	akurilin	bbloom, ok thank you, that clarifies it.
22:56	akurilin	Do a lot of clojure functions operating on collections intentionally place the collection argument at the end to avoid having to switch between -> and ->>?
22:57	tbaldridge	akurilin: seq functions use the seq at the end (see map and reduce)
22:57	tbaldridge	akurilin: collection functions use the collection as the first argument (see conj, assoc, dissoc, etc).
22:58	akurilin	tbaldridge, would sort fall in the first category?
22:58	john2x	test
23:02	tbaldridge	.(doc sort)
23:02	tbaldridge	,(doc sort)
23:02	clojurebot	"([coll] [comp coll]); Returns a sorted sequence of the items in coll. If no comparator is supplied, uses compare. comparator must implement java.util.Comparator. If coll is a Java array, it will be modified. To avoid this, sort a copy of the array."
23:02	tbaldridge	akurilin: "returns a sorted seq" so the collection goes last
23:09	akurilin	tbaldridge, is the idea that most of the time I won't be intermixing the two categories of functions with a threading operator?
23:11	tbaldridge	akurilin: yeah, its normally a bad idea to switch between the two.
23:11	tbaldridge	akurilin: to tell you the truth though, I don't normally find myself wanting to mix them. map/reduce/filter/remove are all seq functions so I use those together
23:12	tbaldridge	assoc/dissoc/merge are used together, etc.
23:12	akurilin	tbaldridge, got it, pefect. thank you.
23:15	akurilin	Heh, I like how sorting a map by value is frequent enough of a scenario that clojuredocs had to fully write it out.
23:18	babilen	hyPiRion: thanks a lot for fixing the license issue that promptly. rock on! :)
23:58	clj_newb_2345	looking at http://docs.datomic.com/tutorial.html , I have one simple quesiton: where is the clojure example code?
23:59	clj_newb_2345	it seems like there is plenty of code examples for typing into the datomic shell
23:59	clj_newb_2345	but no actual clojure code