#clojure – 2013-06-29

2013-06-29

00:01	derek_c	Does Leiningen support all maven repos?
00:06	gt`	Hi all, I am on ubuntu want to get clojure read MS SQL data using unixodbc. UnixODBC is setup and working already with MS SQL i just need to know how i could get clojure to read data using any useful library . Appreciate any help
00:07	technomancy	derek_c: it should, yeah
00:17	dnolen_	bbloom: what do you mean?
00:17	dnolen_	bbloom: they certainly aren't a problem the way large methods are on the JVM
00:18	bbloom	dnolen_: i was just wondering what would happen if i compiled a gigantic switch statement in a single big function
00:18	bbloom	dnolen_: something like what parser generators output
00:19	dnolen_	bbloom: never benchmarks such a thing, but I would imagine not a problem
00:19	dnolen_	benchmarked
00:19	bbloom	dnolen_: even on firefox? i thought firefox was a method jit instead of a tracing jit
00:19	dnolen_	bbloom: dunno, I kinda ignore FF as it's performance is often dismal
00:19	bbloom	heh
00:23	dnolen_	bbloom: my main complaint with FF is GC, they are working on it, it seems
00:24	dnolen_	recent JavaScriptCore is amazing, so I expect FF will get there too
00:24	dnolen_	bbloom: still, as far as big fns, I just don't see why that would be a problem given modules in JS are giant closures
00:25	bbloom	ah, good point
00:25	bbloom	although i guess modules are only ever really loaded once :-P
00:40	bbloom	dnolen_: in your dbounce example, could you just initialize with (js/Date. 0) to avoid the nil check ?
02:05	ozzloy	how do you unit test functions that return functions? i did (expect #() #()) which didn't work
02:05	ozzloy	(using expectations)
02:06	ozzloy	a quick answer i can think of is to test that applying the returned function to some values gives the desired output
02:06	ozzloy	but that's not the same as testing whether the returned function is what you expected
02:07	bbloom	ozzloy: functions use reference equality
02:07	bbloom	,(= #() #())
02:07	clojurebot	false
02:07	bbloom	,(let [f #()] (= f f))
02:07	clojurebot	true
02:07	bbloom	you can't test the shape of a function at all
02:28	SegFaultAX	Does something other than Friend exist yet?
02:30	amalloy	SegFaultAX: infinitely many such things
02:30	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Something that is already a thing, and that doesn't suck?
02:31	amalloy	SegFaultAX: i was introducing levity by pointing out that you didn't limit your scope: so far cupcakes fit the bill under all three of your requirements
02:31	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Cupcakes already do authentication?
02:32	SegFaultAX	Does something that does what friend is supposed to do, but in a considerably less shitty way already exist?
02:37	tomjack	what is friend supposed to do?
02:37	SegFaultAX	tomjack: Warden-like authentication.
02:38	tomjack	"already" threw me off
02:42	Raynes	SegFaultAX: In case you didn't totally get amalloy's joke, he was taking advantage of the fact that the scope you were limiting to includes every single quark in the universe that doesn't make up Friend.
02:43	SegFaultAX	Raynes: Yea, but I'm genuinely curious about this pedantry aside.
02:46	pepijndevos	Are go block generally preferred over threads in core.async?
02:46	pepijndevos	(on JVM)
02:47	tomjack	they're complementary
02:48	tomjack	a decent rule of thumb (I think) is to use thread when the body may block
02:49	tomjack	a go body should do its stuff quickly, not block on IO or whatever, maybe parking on a channel op
02:50	tomjack	if not, you'll potentially stop up everything since you only have a fixed pool for go blocks
02:50	tomjack	not sure what fork/join would mean in relation to this
02:50	SegFaultAX	tomjack: I thought go blocks will automatically park?
02:51	tomjack	I wouldn't call it automatic
02:51	tomjack	if you use <!! in a go block, that's bad
02:51	tomjack	if you use <! you're saying "park if necessary"
02:51	tomjack	(and <! cannot mean anything else)
02:51	pepijndevos	Is core.async in any repo? lein doesn;t find it
02:51	SegFaultAX	"go is a macro that takes its body and examines it for any channel operations. It will turn the body into a state machine. Upon reaching any blocking operation, the state machine will be 'parked' and the actual thread of control will be released. "
02:52	tomjack	no, it hasn't been released
02:52	tomjack	SegFaultAX: that's maybe misleading in this context
02:52	tomjack	it's not like gevent's insane monkeypatching or whatever
02:52	SegFaultAX	tomjack: Just repeating what the author wrote.
02:52	SegFaultAX	rhickey in this case.
02:52	tomjack	"blocking operation" there means <! or >!
02:52	tomjack	(or alt!/alts!)
02:53	tomjack	if you deref a future or do syncronous IO or whatever it can't automatically make that async
02:55	SegFaultAX	tomjack: I'm still wrapping my mind around core.async. Haven't looked at it deeply enough yet.
02:55	ozzloy	bbloom, oh, bummer
02:56	bbloom	ozzloy: consider the complexity of that for a moment…. are (fn [x] x) and (fn [y] y) equal?
02:56	ozzloy	bbloom, sorry, i left pretty quickly because i thought the channel was sleeping
02:56	amalloy	bbloom: well, that one's not a great example because they'll generate identical bytecode
02:56	ozzloy	bbloom, i'm aware that it would be complex
02:56	ozzloy	in general
02:56	bbloom	amalloy: shhh you :-P
02:56	amalloy	but, eg, #(+ % %) #(* % 2)
02:57	amalloy	ozzloy: it's provably impossible, in general
02:58	r0bgleeson	are many of you working with clojure in a day job?
02:58	ozzloy	well... provably impossible to determine if two functions will give the same output for all input
02:59	ozzloy	but if they have the same form but different identifiers or something
02:59	ozzloy	anyways, the answer is no, so i'll move on to my next question: how do people in here unit test functions that return functions
03:00	tomjack	pretty much the same way you test a function
03:00	ozzloy	kk
03:00	tomjack	it's just the same problem again
03:00	ozzloy	well kinda
03:01	amalloy	all you can do is call the function with some inputs and verify you get out what you wanted
03:01	SegFaultAX	Haskell explicitly guards against this problem.
03:01	SegFaultAX	Well, optionally.
03:01	amalloy	SegFaultAX: you mean by not having an Eq instance for functions?
03:01	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Yes.
03:02	amalloy	except you can add one, if you're a maniac
03:02	SegFaultAX	That's the optionally part.
03:02	SegFaultAX	There's also some caveats to overloading functions due to the no monomorphism restrictions.
03:02	SegFaultAX	Also optionally.
03:03	SegFaultAX	But that's more of a failing of the type system.
03:03	amalloy	i recently learned what that means, although i don't see what it has to do with function equality
03:04	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Oh it doesn't. It merely places restrictions on expressions without explicity type information.
03:04	SegFaultAX	Explicit, even.
03:05	ozzloy	explicity is a fun word
03:05	ozzloy	sounds like a value of how explicit something is
03:06	ozzloy	g'night. thanks for the help
03:06	SegFaultAX	So are most people just rolling their own authentication then?
03:07	callen	SegFaultAX: that or Friend, yeah.
03:08	SegFaultAX	Bummer.
03:08	Raynes	callen: hi
03:08	callen	Raynes: hey
03:08	callen	SegFaultAX: part of the problem is that while there's a common surface area in Ring, there isn't an agreed upon framework so it's hard to write something everybody can use and that will 'just work'
03:09	Raynes	callen: I met muhoo tonight. We had a blast. RAWK n ROLL'd like crazy.
03:09	callen	Ring middleware can realistically only go so far unless you stash a lot of paranoid state somewhere.
03:09	Raynes	Awesome fellow.
03:09	callen	Raynes: yeah I had a good time bumming around SF with him. Very nice guy.
03:09	amalloy	instance Eq (a->b) where (==) x y = True -- muahahaha, what have you done, SegFaultAX????
03:09	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Haha, wut. :)
03:10	callen	SegFaultAX: so until the community decides it's okay with having a Rails/Django'ish solution somewhere, people will keep rolling their own over and over.
03:10	SegFaultAX	Warden does a decent job of providing a solution for this built purely on rack middleware.
03:10	amalloy	SegFaultAX: well, there are only two plausible definitions of such an operator, and False seemed like it wouldn't have caused as much chaos
03:11	callen	SegFaultAX: then use Warden
03:11	SegFaultAX	And lots of the most popular authentication frameworks are built on warden.
03:11	callen	I prefer to write my own middleware because I like using the request context.
03:12	SegFaultAX	Friend seems to be heavily influenced by warden and it says as much in the documentation. But the implementation is... rough.
03:12	callen	sounds like you know what you want.
03:13	pepijndevos	I'm having trouble mapping CSP onto core.async.
03:14	SegFaultAX	What interests (and perhaps confuses) me is that this doesn't seem to be a more well explored area than I would have anticipated.
03:15	SegFaultAX	Lots of (most?) apps require some form of authentication or another.
03:15	callen	SegFaultAX: User-facing applications that are more likely to have auth aren't the most common use of Clojure at the moment.
03:15	callen	SegFaultAX: lots of people will have a Clojure API hiding behind a Rails app.
03:15	callen	I'm not happy about this, but again, that's why I have my own bag of tricks for this nonsense.
03:16	pepijndevos	In core.async there are clearly senders and receivers, while in CSP there is just "stuff happening"
03:17	tomjack	are you reading hoare?
03:17	pepijndevos	yea
03:17	tomjack	it's like hundreds of pages in iirc before channel-like things are introduced
03:17	pepijndevos	Trying to imagine a vending machine with multiple customers
03:18	pepijndevos	ah
03:18	pepijndevos	ok, more reading....
03:18	tomjack	I think in CSP you just say that an event can be a pair of a channel and message
03:18	tomjack	the way it's formulated you don't have to distinguish between send/receive
03:19	pepijndevos	?
03:19	pepijndevos	okay...
03:20	tomjack	because the alphabet is defined such that a sent message could only be sent
03:20	tomjack	e.g. if the vending machine has a channel, you could say products will always be received and coins always sent
03:21	pepijndevos	yea, that makes sense
03:21	tomjack	and in the formalism 'sent' and 'received' are just meaningless
03:21	pepijndevos	like so? https://www.refheap.com/16190
03:21	tomjack	just us dirty operational dynamic folks need to care about that nasty stuff :)
03:21	pepijndevos	lol
03:22	pepijndevos	So that works with one customer, but with 2 it gets strange
03:23	tomjack	why strange?
03:23	pepijndevos	coin -> choc \|\|\| coin -> choc \|\|\| coin -> choc, I think in CSP that would do one coin -> choc, but with channels that would do 2, in undetermined order.
03:24	tomjack	sorry what's \|\|\|
03:24	pepijndevos	that lockstep concurrent thig I think.
03:25	SegFaultAX	Whoa netsplit?
03:26	tomjack	VEND = (slot.coin) -> (tray.choc) -> VEND ?
03:28	tomjack	I don't understand the mapping well either
03:28	pepijndevos	yes
03:29	tomjack	VEND and BUY look exactly the same, though, right?
03:29	SegFaultAX	If you need some comedy in your life, open up the local computer gigs page on craigslist and see the ridiculous things people want for completely insane prices (often free)
03:29	tomjack	BUY = (slot.coin) -> (tray.choc) -> BUY ?
03:29	SegFaultAX	"I want to build a facebook/amazon clone"
03:30	pepijndevos	tomjack, exactly
03:30	SegFaultAX	Price: $250 - $500 depending on how long it will take
03:30	tomjack	because VEND and BUY are tied in a circle, so slot.coin and tray.choc are in the alphabets of both
03:30	tomjack	then VEND \|\| BUY \|\| BUY
03:30	tomjack	anyway I think your code should work fine as long as state is an unbuffered channel
03:30	pepijndevos	yes, so if you run the in parallel, they execute coin and choc synchronously.
03:31	tomjack	as you'd get from (chan)
03:31	tomjack	the vending machine won't accept a second coin until the first choc has been received
03:31	pepijndevos	right, but now add another customer
03:32	tomjack	and a customer can't get a choc until it's put a coin in
03:32	tomjack	what's the problem?
03:32	pepijndevos	well, that should work with the code, but I think that's different from what CSP does. But maybe I'mwrong
03:33	tomjack	oh, I must have misunderstood you
03:34	pepijndevos	So in Clojure coin -> choc \|\|\| coin -> choc \|\|\| coin -> choc would give each customer a choc.
03:35	pepijndevos	But in CSP it's more like 2 people and a mchine together insert a coin and get one choc back
03:35	tomjack	hmm
03:35	tomjack	VEND and BUY above are wrong I think
03:37	tomjack	V = (vin . coin) -> (bout . choc) -> V
03:38	tomjack	B = (vout . coin) -> (bin . choc) -> B
03:38	tomjack	?
03:39	tomjack	then let vc = (vin,vout), you could instead write
03:39	tomjack	V = (<! vc coin) -> (>! bc choc) -> V
03:39	tomjack	B = (>! vc coin) -> (<! bc choc) -> B
03:39	tomjack	?
03:39	pepijndevos	that's a confusing syntaxt crosover :P le me parse that
03:40	tomjack	(= (<! (vin,vout) coin) (vin . coin))
03:40	tomjack	(= (>! (vin,vout) coin) (vout . coin))
03:41	tomjack	but I think you may be right about the problem with multiple consumers
03:41	pepijndevos	yea, it's betetr explained with a different example. I want to program a choir
03:42	tomjack	I think a channel endpoint in CSP should only be read/written by one process
03:43	tomjack	if you have multiple consumers you have multiple endpoints
03:43	pepijndevos	there is a conductor C = (>! swing) -> (<! note) -> C
03:43	pepijndevos	and there are singers S = (<! swing) -> (>! note) -> S
03:43	tomjack	(I was going to mention I never did a thorough read of hoare so take everything I say with a grain of salt)
03:44	pepijndevos	I can;t think of a way to write a program that keeps a choir in sync
03:45	tomjack	C = (>! flute swing) -> (>! tuba swing) -> (<! flute note) -> (<! tuba note) -> C
03:45	tomjack	as for a program.. hmm :)
03:46	tomjack	(for completeness, F = (<! flute swing) -> (>! flute note) -> F)
03:53	tomjack	pepijndevos: this didn't work
03:53	tomjack	https://www.refheap.com/19c63f1624e70614e2de1309f
03:53	tomjack	but maybe it will give you some ideas
03:54	tomjack	oh I see the problem
03:54	tomjack	problems
03:55	pepijndevos	so you let the players ad themselves?
03:55	tomjack	https://www.refheap.com/22501c69cab3472136ef54f2a
03:56	tomjack	I think rich indicated once in here that something like this is the solution to this kind of problem
03:56	tomjack	not sure about the best way to formulate it, the design space with channels/processes in core.async is frighteningly open to me
03:56	tomjack	don't understand yet how to best organize things
03:56	tomjack	but I think any solution will be basically isomorphic to this
03:57	tomjack	you could just pass a coll of player channels to the conductor
03:57	tomjack	I think? if you know all the players ahead of time
03:58	tomjack	then the weird subscription stuff goes away
03:58	tomjack	and passing a coll of player channels seems to map nicely onto the C above
03:58	tomjack	[flute tuba]
03:59	tomjack	in retrospect my refheap is quite silly
03:59	tomjack	I remembered an approach like that for some other thing I tried once
04:00	blz37	I am not asking much. I have em.raynes/conch in my :dependencies. I want to add one more to play around with. Please suggest one.
04:04	tomjack	pepijndevos: https://www.refheap.com/ac1b667140848032ff6b8f642 ?
04:05	pepijndevos	I ned to catch up, was reading hoar
04:05	tomjack	I almost feel like I would rather have ports be the primitive instead of channels
04:06	tomjack	I guess channels have to be the primitive, but I feel like I want ports
04:06	tomjack	I'm too stupid to use channels correctly :)
04:08	pepijndevos	tomjack, that works, but no way you can keep 1000 players in sync that way, if you "sync" them sequentially.
04:09	tomjack	I bet you could
04:09	pepijndevos	hm…
04:09	tomjack	light/sound waves are very fast compared to neural impluses and muscle movements :)
04:10	pepijndevos	...
04:10	tomjack	if you had some broadcast-like channel hiding the doseq from you, what else could it do but a doseq internally?
04:10	tomjack	if you have so many consumers that doseq'ing them is a problem, I think you're fucked anyway
04:11	pepijndevos	lol
04:11	tomjack	in addition core.async tends to be more useful if there is some inherent delay
04:11	tomjack	and often these delays are long enough that doseq'ing 10000 consumers or whatever probably won't matter
04:12	pepijndevos	I'm just going to read the book...
04:12	tomjack	good luck, unfortunately understanding CSP is no longer part of my job description :(
04:12	tomjack	but I don't think you will find implementation tips in hoare
04:17	pepijndevos	tomjack, it was before?
04:18	pepijndevos	I want to understand CSP, and then understand core.async.
04:19	tomjack	please give a talk or something when you're done :)
04:21	pepijndevos	lol, I'll at least write a blog post
04:22	pepijndevos	an event as an action without duration, whose occurrence may require simultaneous participation by more than one independently described process.
04:22	pepijndevos	That's the part i don't see in core.async
04:23	tomjack	that's in CSP?
04:23	tomjack	I remember looking for something like that and CSP and not being able to find it
04:23	pepijndevos	Maybe this part is orthogonal to channels, and some fancy concurrent state machine might be devised to handle it
04:23	tomjack	but I didn't look very hard
04:24	tomjack	my impression was that the C in CSP is always one-to-one
04:24	tomjack	(like in core.async)
04:24	pepijndevos	full quote: In previous chapters we have introduced and illustrated a general concept of an event as an action without duration, whose occurrence may require simul- taneous participation by more than one independently described process.
04:24	pepijndevos	that's in chapter 5 or so
04:25	tomjack	hmm
04:25	tomjack	'but..'?
04:26	pepijndevos	ah P \|\| Q means P in parallel with Q
04:28	pepijndevos	as I understand it, if aP = {foo bar} and aQ = (bar baz} then they will together do bar
04:29	tomjack	"We shall observe the convention that channels are used for communication in only one direction and between only two processes."
04:29	tomjack	I hadn't thought about the fact that without the convention you get broadcasting channels
04:30	tomjack	if that's a fact
04:31	pepijndevos	right, so channels are just what channels are in CSP
04:31	pepijndevos	but core.async just doesn;t have the events described in the first chapter.
04:31	pepijndevos	"All the operations introduced in this chapter can be defined in terms of the more primitive concepts introduced in earlier chapters, and most of the laws are just special cases of previously familiar laws. "
04:32	pepijndevos	That leads me to think channels are an abstraction over events?
04:33	tomjack	consider the hypothetical V \|\| B \|\| B
04:34	tomjack	how is it different from V \|\| B
04:35	tomjack	I think events are the abstraction
04:35	tomjack	you can implement core.async-style channels inside that abstraction
04:35	tomjack	but you can't implement events in anything remotely resembling core.async, it just doesn't make sense
04:36	tomjack	(and you can't really implement core.async-style channels inside the abstraction. you can implement something which is a good model for them?)
04:38	pepijndevos	..
04:40	pepijndevos	tomjack, are you saying CSP and core.async are entirely different things?
04:41	tomjack	in some sense, yes, absolutely
04:41	tomjack	processes in CSP are mathematical objects
04:41	tomjack	processes in core.async are presumably clojure functions
04:42	tomjack	the whole 'events as actions whose occurrence may require..' makes sense in a mathematical model
04:42	tomjack	I don't think it makes sense in a clojure program, at least not in something remotely like core.async
04:45	pepijndevos	I think it makes a lot of sense in clojure programs, but it's just not implemented in core.async.
04:46	pepijndevos	I would like to see a dining philosophers impl in core.async.
04:47	pepijndevos	They do that in CSP, and it looks almost trivial.
04:52	tomjack	I could see maybe a core.logic-alike which lets you define process equations
04:53	tomjack	but really, I don't understand CSP much at all, I hope you enlighten me someday
04:54	pepijndevos	A communication is an event that is described by a pair c.v where c is the name of the channel on which the communication takes place and v is the value of the message which passes.
04:57	pepijndevos	but ye , one to one only,, while events can involve many
04:58	pepijndevos	yea, i think some sort of state machine could implement this stuff
05:00	tomjack	is A == A \|\| A ?
05:44	tomjack	dependencies in this pom.xml with no version specified
05:44	tomjack	mvn should throw an error :(
06:04	samrat	is doing this: https://www.refheap.com/16195 a bad idea? I want to send an HTTP request every minute for a specific three hour interval a day only.
07:07	Mohshi	hi
07:08	Mohshi	when i do (context "/:id" [id] some-routes) how can i access id in some-routes?
07:09	Mohshi	compojure ^
08:38	jtoy_	what is the point of var?
08:39	jtoy_	this is the definition: The symbol must resolve to a var, and the Var object itself (not its value) is returned. The reader macro #'x expands to (var x).
08:39	jtoy_	but im not sure why its used
08:48	callen	jtoy_: vars are foundational.
08:48	Okasu	jtoy_: http://pramode.net/clojure/2010/05/13/story-of-clojure-vars-part-1/
08:49	_ato	jtoy_: as for why you might want to get a reference to one, try (meta (var first))
08:50	jtoy_	thats useful info!
08:53	EiX	hello
08:55	EiX	what will happen if i'll make middleware and will set current-user atom to something in that middleware depending on request?
08:55	EiX	is it safe?
09:01	jtoy_	im still not sure why one would want to use var though, i see it being used here : https://github.com/korma/Korma/blob/master/src/korma/core.clj#L581
09:18	EiX	guys?
09:28	xpe	I'd like to make a custom exception class. Is http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Concepts#Exception_Handling a good way to go? I don't see `gen-and-load-class` in clojure.core
09:37	dark_element	xpe looks like :gen-class would do the trick
09:47	xpe	dark_element: that works, but it involves a manual compile step, which is part of the reason why people suggest using the alternatives
09:47	dark_element	xpe what are the alternatives?
09:48	xpe	dark_element: they are listed in that SO post. slingshot is probably the best "all in one" solution from what I can tell. ex-info can help too
09:50	dark_element	xpe ohh ok i thought there are alternatives to defining the usual java exception without compile step. yes slingshot and ex-info are great alternatives.
09:50	dark_element	xpe ex-info is more preferred i guess since it comes with clojure
09:51	xpe	dark_element: I don't know of any alternatives to defining the usual java exception without a compile step. luckily I don't think a recompile is needed very often
09:52	dark_element	xpe all right
09:52	gfredericks	I imagine there's no reason not to use core.async to do database queries in core
09:52	dark_element	xpe go for ex-info if you can
09:52	gfredericks	s/core/java.jdbc/
09:52	xpe	dark_element: thanks
09:53	gfredericks	gotta be careful about resource cleanup though :/
09:54	gfredericks	I'm also curious about channels as ring responses
09:54	gfredericks	or requests too?
09:59	dark_element	gfredericks http-kit uses channels for the streaming response and websockets
10:01	dark_element	gfredericks though the same channels you are talking about but the same concept. I wonder if they will be replaced by core.async channels in future
10:01	dark_element	not the same*
10:06	gfredericks	dark_element: what does this replace? jetty?
10:07	gfredericks	ha yes that's what the website says
10:08	dark_element	gfredericks didn't get you?
10:08	gfredericks	huh?
10:08	gfredericks	I'm fine, just reading about http-kit
10:08	gfredericks	thanks for pointing it out
10:10	dark_element	gfredericks I was saying replacing channel primitives written in http-kit with core.async will be a good idea
10:10	dark_element	gfredericks that is a very good question indeed
10:10	gfredericks	HTTP 3.0 will let us put the status at the end :)
10:10	gfredericks	er...1.3?
10:10	gfredericks	whatever
10:11	dnolen_	pepijndevos: not sure what you are asking
10:11	dark_element	gfredericks interesting
10:11	dark_element	gfredericks TIL, thanks
10:12	gfredericks	dark_element: it was a joke
10:12	gfredericks	very little of what I say is constructive
10:12	dark_element	gfredericks and i already googled for it and wonder what i did wrong
10:12	pepijndevos	dnolen_: I was reading the CSP book, and only in chapter 4 or so does it talk about channels, which seems to be what core.async does.
10:13	pepijndevos	Before that it's just events, and I don't see those in core.async
10:13	hyPiRion	gfredericks: oh nono, I think our research on Swearjure is very constructive
10:13	gfredericks	hyPiRion: swearjure is certainly not most of what I say :P
10:14	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Hum, well, but logic programming!
10:14	gfredericks	ditto
10:14	gfredericks	why does lazybot not have a random sample command that we can use to actually check this claim
10:14	hyPiRion	oh what, you're talking about all these cool things you do @ miniKandren
10:14	hyPiRion	miniKanren*
10:15	gfredericks	I'm not talking about those I'm just spouting nonsense
10:15	hyPiRion	oh okay, fine. Here I am trying to make you feel valuable, and you spoil everything
10:15	hyPiRion	:p
10:15	dnolen_	pepijndevos: it's not clear to me whether events are just part of the formalism
10:15	dnolen_	pepijndevos: the CSP book is really about formalism not a concrete implementation
10:16	dnolen_	about the formalism
10:16	pepijndevos	n previous chapters we have introduced and illustrated a general concept of an event as an action without duration, whose occurrence may require simultaneous participation by more than one independently described process
10:16	gfredericks	hyPiRion: being valuable is different from the majority of my statements being valuable :P
10:17	dnolen_	pepijndevos: core.async approach doesn't seem that different from how CSP has actually been implemented in the past
10:17	pepijndevos	dnolen_: the important part about events compared to messages is that more than 2 parties can be involved
10:17	dnolen_	pepijndevos: most of the improvements are just good taste
10:17	dnolen_	pepijndevos: sure you can model that with primitives
10:18	dnolen_	with the primitives
10:18	hyPiRion	argh, but there is usually a correlation sir.
10:18	pepijndevos	dnolen_: which primitives?
10:18	dnolen_	pepijndevos: the core.async primitives, writing a broadcast channel is easy
10:19	pepijndevos	I should look at the code...
10:20	pepijndevos	I'm not sure a broadcast channel is what I want though
10:21	pepijndevos	Itn would be really intreresting to see the dining philosophers from the book translated to core.sync, I think.
10:21	dnolen_	pepijndevos: just try it, I'm sure you'll figure it out, it isn't hard to use
10:21	pepijndevos	ok
10:21	dnolen_	I've started going through various JS UI patterns
10:22	dnolen_	it simplifies things in incredible ways so far
10:22	dnolen_	because you can break apart complected code into independent communicating processes
10:22	pepijndevos	hmhm
10:22	dnolen_	honestly prior to core.async, FP + UI programming was a serious joke in my opinion for me.
10:23	pepijndevos	I would mostly agree, although I never really tried anyway.
10:24	dnolen_	this is what a FRP game looks like https://github.com/raimohanska/worzone/blob/master/worzone.js
10:24	dnolen_	JUST SAY NO
10:25	dnolen_	pepijndevos: yeah having done UI programming for the last 8 years, core.async just makes sense to me
10:25	dnolen_	stuff I've used in JS, Obj-C, Java, C, C++ - just different flavors of awful
10:25	pepijndevos	It makes a lot of sense, I'm just missing the first half of the book, which alse makes a lot of sense to me\
10:27	dnolen_	pepijndevos: you should read this http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.102.9787
10:27	pepijndevos	dnolen_: modelling an orchestra or a choir would be really easy with events instead of channels
10:27	dnolen_	I'm sure the Hoare stuff is good, but ^ pdf made things a lot more clear how things work in practice
10:28	dnolen_	pepijndevos: you can keep talking or you can try it ;)
10:28	pepijndevos	haha, ok ok
10:45	tjb1982	anyone using korma who knows how to defentity a schema in postgres that's not public?
10:50	tjb1982	e.g. something like "select * from a_schema.a_table;" I tried to set it in defdb, as well, but it's only looking for the db part and fails saying "a_database.a_schema" doesn't exist.
11:14	callen	tjb1982: grant perms yo.
11:20	tjb1982	callen: both schemmata have the same owner
11:21	tjb1982	*schemata
11:21	callen	tjb1982: why doesn't the owner have access to its own schema?
11:22	tjb1982	it's not that it doesn't have access, it's that it can't figure out how to access the schema because of the dot
11:22	tjb1982	in postgres you have db.schema.table
11:22	tjb1982	defdb needs db
11:22	tjb1982	defentity needs table
11:23	tjb1982	"public" schema is assumed
11:23	tjb1982	but if you have other schemata it doesn't work
11:23	tjb1982	I can't (defentity schema.table)
11:24	tjb1982	and I can't (defdb db (postgres {:db "db.schema" ...})
11:24	tjb1982	neither works
12:11	kmicu	First example with alts!! https://www.refheap.com/16197 prints nothing, but next one with alts! is ok.
12:13	kmicu	https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/examples/walkthrough.clj
13:17	igorw	has anyone written an EBNF for edn? keywords are more complex than ":$symbol"
13:18	bbloom	igorw: i just asked the creator of instaparse about that the other day
13:18	bbloom	he said he didn't know of anyone
13:19	bbloom	igorw: i'd love to have a pair of robust grammars for EDN and CLJ forms, so let me know if you tackle that
13:32	igorw	bbloom: too bad. I have regex based lexing which is a good starting point, but I'm sure there's lots of unhandled edge cases.
13:33	bbloom	igorw: luckily, clojure's reader is LL(1)
13:36	hyPiRion	igorw: You could probably have a look at https://github.com/hyPiRion/astyx/blob/master/src/astyx.clj, though note that I know of multiple cases where symbol and keyword is wrongly defined.
13:36	hyPiRion	Also, ugly regexes. I just patched and patched and ended up with that mess.
13:37	bbloom	it's also worth noting that clojure itself might not correctly implement it's own grammar....
13:37	bbloom	ie being more or less permissive unintentionally
13:42	tomjack	bbloom: I was wondering, might you implement a reader, analyzer, compiler, in ascribe?
13:43	tomjack	(I mean not _you_, I'm asking about the problem space ascribe addresses, not your plans)
13:48	igorw	hyPiRion: interesting. but looks like it is not able to read :#foo as a symbol
13:49	bbloom	tomjack: i started to implement a cljs analyzer :-) but it's a pretty low low low priority project & ascribe is no where near feature complete enough to really tackle the task
13:49	bbloom	tomjack: check out the cljs branch
13:49	bbloom	in the test directory
13:50	hyPiRion	igorw: yeah, exactly. It's messy for symbols and kws
13:50	Okasu	>(\\\\\
13:50	Okasu	Oh c'mon.
13:52	tomjack	so if you did this presumably the thing you end up with would be more extensible than the clojure reader/analyzer/compiler
13:52	tomjack	I wonder if it's equivalent in power to CPS'ing them
13:53	bbloom	tomjack: my initial target was ~2X as slow as the existing cljs analyzer prior to goog advanced optimizations
13:53	bbloom	tomjack: the longer term goal is roughly the same speed as google closure compiler's advanced mode, but doing the same type of optimizations at the clojure level, prior to javascript
13:54	bbloom	tomjack: an alternative/simultaneous long term goal would be to create an analyzer that supports in-memory incremental "changes" with efficient dependency tracking, cache invalidation, etc. such that being slower wouldn't really matter unless you change the entire repository at once
13:55	tomjack	interesting
13:57	bbloom	but it's a pretty low priority for me, since i've learned the key things i wanted to learn from building the ascribe experiment :-P
13:58	bbloom	so many project ideas, so little time….
14:36	supersym	bbloom... I think I know that feeling, but additionally, don't fully master the language myself yet - all in due time I guess
14:37	bbloom	supersym: just start making things :-) you'll be an expert in no time that way
14:37	supersym	Btw, I could use some advice, I was thinking about adding zipcode lookup for visitors on a site, fill in your post code and it looks up the street + city....
14:37	supersym	its 326000 lines of CSV though... and I intend to use it in a cljs/Luminus built site...
14:38	supersym	should I put these in a db? serialize? put them in a trie? I really wouldn't know the best option
14:38	bbloom	supersym: what's wrong with a map?
14:40	supersym	Nothing...thats what I did with the taxes on vehicles lookup it was considerably smaller in size though.
14:41	bbloom	$ du -h zip.csv
14:43	bbloom	supersym: that was a query for you :-)
14:44	supersym	yeah :) I know du... just that I'm not a CS major and not shitgiggles about optimization and when stuff starts to break...
14:44	supersym	I guess one way to find out is try :)
14:44	bbloom	always a good way
14:45	bbloom	is the file what? 20 megabytes?
14:45	supersym	clojure csv reading/querying data seems easy enough... prolly beats the effort of trying to be smart
14:45	supersym	good guess :)
14:45	supersym	21M
14:46	bbloom	was an educated guess based on the number of rows & the nature of the data
14:46	supersym	over 12 files, 1 per province...
14:46	supersym	yeah
14:46	bbloom	that's probably what? 30 or 40 megs in memory
14:46	bbloom	maybe less
14:46	supersym	k
14:47	bbloom	40 megs top, could even be smaller than 20 megs in memory, since there are no quotes and numbers aren't encoded as text
14:47	bbloom	read the CSV in line by line, use (into {} …) to build up a map, stick that in a var & you're good
14:47	bbloom	:-P
14:47	supersym	really.. that easy huh :)
14:48	supersym	cool... I should also stop second guessing myself all the time
14:48	supersym	seems to be INTP trait
14:48	bbloom	the curse of the skilled intermediate programmer
14:48	supersym	really annoying though,... much appreciated, thanks
14:49	bbloom	takes longer to fret over it than it does to just try it
14:50	supersym	well it has a lot of text "Unknown" strings, and geolocs
14:50	supersym	I can trim all that bloat out, saves about half I guess
14:50	bbloom	supersym: sounds like a job for awk :-P
14:50	supersym	good thing I recently (finally) learned the syntax
14:54	tomjack	can a macro expand to something that does defs in another namespace?
14:54	nooga	(/j coffee
14:54	nooga	oops
14:55	bbloom	tomjack: not without some hackery at the var level
14:55	bbloom	tomjack: or i guess hackery at the ns form level
14:55	tomjack	I may be OK with hackery
14:55	bbloom	in theory you could push/pop a ns with try/finally
14:55	bbloom	and in-ns
14:55	tomjack	I'd just use intern but there's some code only accessible via a def* macro
14:55	bbloom	make a with-ns macro :-)
14:56	tomjack	hmm
14:56	tomjack	I tried this (do (let [ns (ns-name ns)] (in-ns 'foo) (def bar 42) (in-ns ns)))
14:56	tomjack	no luck
14:56	tomjack	needs moar hack?
14:56	bbloom	(eval '(def bar 42))
14:56	bbloom	?
14:56	bbloom	heh
14:57	tomjack	confusing, so I need my macro to expand to an eval call to a quoted macro call..
14:57	tomjack	thanks
14:58	bbloom	def is weird
14:58	tomjack	I think I vaguely understand the reason
14:58	bbloom	it's a side effect, but it's quasi analyzed statically, but it's also one of the few remaining interpreted primitives in clojure
14:58	bbloom	it's a mess :-P
14:58	bbloom	but it's also a repl-lovers dream
14:58	bbloom	so wutchagonna do
14:58	tomjack	if the macro could expand out to multiple top-level forms it could work?
14:58	tomjack	without hacks
14:58	bbloom	tomjack: i think so...
14:59	bbloom	"the top level is hopeless"
14:59	tomjack	actually, fuck it
14:59	tomjack	I'll just macroexpand my def* calls and use intern
15:07	wastrel	razmataz
15:21	QSteven	core.logic question: this program returns (_0) while I'm expecting (3). Something must be wrong with pluso but I don't know what
15:21	QSteven	https://gist.github.com/devijvers/5892294
15:24	tomjack	QSteven: what about false true false?
15:24	QSteven	tomjack, that's handled by :else
15:25	tomjack	exactly
15:25	tomjack	the :else doesn't do any logic so you just get _0
15:25	QSteven	tomjack, that's what I was thinking too, but how do I solve this?
15:26	tomjack	any reason you're not just using fd? this is pedagogical?
15:26	QSteven	tomjack, what's fd?
15:27	tomjack	(:require [clojure.core.logic.fd :as fd])
15:27	tomjack	pluso is fd/+
15:28	tomjack	only thing is, you have to assign domains to variables like (fd/in x (fd/interval 0 100))
15:28	tomjack	and it only works with non-negative integers
15:28	tomjack	I think what you're trying to do would be solved by "constraints and modes" which is not implemented yet
15:28	bbloom	hmm presumably it could be made to work w/ negative integers using a slack variable, no?
15:28	tomjack	you'd have to write a constraint
15:29	bbloom	dnolen_: might know ^^
15:29	tomjack	bbloom: (to be clear, wasn't responding to you)
15:29	bbloom	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slack_variable
15:29	hyPiRion	well, non-negativity can just be flipped around
15:30	QSteven	tomjack, I'd like to get pluso working, indeed for pedagogical purposes
15:30	hyPiRion	x + y = -z --> x + y + z = 0
15:30	bbloom	yeah, essentially, you just have two magnitude variables & then a constraint that implies one of them must be zero
15:30	QSteven	tomjack, but thanks for the fd reference, I'll look into that too
15:30	tomjack	I think you'll have to look into constraint internals then
15:31	tomjack	grep the sources for IConstraintStep
15:31	tomjack	actually
15:31	tomjack	maybe you don't need to
15:31	bbloom	x = y \| y > 0 can be expressed: xpos - xneg = y \| y > 0, xpos >= 0, xneg >= 0
15:31	tomjack	maybe you can just defer to a constraint that's in core when things aren't ground enough, like maybe predc?
15:32	tomjack	:else (l/predc [x y s] (fn [[x y s]] (= (+ x y) s))) or something ?
15:32	tomjack	:else (l/predc [x y s] (fn [[x y s]] (= (+ x y) s))) or something ?
15:33	tomjack	whoops. (l/predc [x y s] (fn [[x y s]] (= (+ x y) s)) `pluso)
15:34	QSteven	tomjack, shouldn't I call pluso in the predicate?
15:35	tomjack	well
15:35	tomjack	predc doesn't seem like it will work anyway
15:35	tomjack	unless only one var is unground?
15:35	QSteven	tomjack, because (= (+ x y) s) won't work when one of them is an lvar
15:35	tomjack	I was hoping (predc [x y s] ...) would wait until x, y and s become ground to run the pred
15:36	tomjack	but at worst, following e.g. predc's example, you should be able to come up with something I think
15:36	QSteven	tomjack, IllegalArgumentException No implementation of method: :bind of protocol: #'clojure.core.logic.protocols/IBind found for class: clojure.core.logic$cgoal$reify__3741 clojure.core/-cache-protocol-fn (core_deftype.clj:541)
15:36	QSteven	tomjack, I'll have a look at predc
15:36	tomjack	you need to call it with the substitution, (a in your code, I think?)
15:37	tomjack	but it won't work anyway afaict
15:37	r0bgleeson	'found for class:', is that java leaking through?
15:37	QSteven	tomjack, where would I pass the substitution?
15:38	tomjack	predc returns a goal, so if you're inside a goal (fn [a] ...) you'd do (fn [a] ... ((predc ...) a))
15:38	QSteven	tomjack, actually, what I want to return is something so that core.logic skips to the next line (== a 7) and then tries the pluso call again
15:38	QSteven	tomjack, right
15:39	tomjack	yes, that's essentially what constraints are for
15:39	QSteven	tomjack, you're right, predc doesn't seem to have an impact, still (_0)
15:39	tomjack	I'd try a -plusc closely following predc
15:40	tomjack	instead of just x you have three args
15:40	tomjack	and you don't need p/pform
15:41	tomjack	oh and you'll have to do something predc doesn't in the cases where you're able to infer a value
15:41	tomjack	ext-run-cs/ext-run-csg I think to set the inferred value
15:42	tomjack	good luck, if you are stuck I may have some time later to help, but gotta get back to work
15:43	QSteven	tomjack, thanks for you help, unfortunately none of this is intuitive :(
15:43	tomjack	yeah it took me a very long time to get the rudimentary understanding of core.logic I have now
15:44	tomjack	though if you are more diligent it could take less time :)
15:45	tomjack	in the back of my mind has been the problem of a more friendly interface for defining constraints
15:46	tomjack	can't help wondering why a constraint can't just be a fn
15:46	tomjack	guess there are probably good reasons for all the protocols though
15:48	QSteven	tomjack, if only there would be more documentation :)
15:52	Apage43	grumble grumble
15:53	Apage43	sublime text totally failed at highlighting here :/
16:00	Foxboron	Apage43: i have been considering throwing up a own syntax file in my Enhanced Clojure package for ST, if i recall, it dosn't hilight correctly if you type 1000N and so on
16:17	gfredericks	core.async's README still has the "don't use this" disclaimer which is contradicted by rich's blag
16:17	technomancy	gfredericks: you should submit a pull request
16:19	gfredericks	technomancy: is this your new long term sabotage strategy?
16:19	gfredericks	first you infect contrib with project.clj files, then you bombard them with PRs
16:19	technomancy	gfredericks: war of attrition
16:20	Bronsa	TBH I see nowhere written that contribs cannot accept pull requests
16:20	hyPiRion	oh no, we may get productive
16:20	gfredericks	is the next phase to snail-mail-DDOS them with CAs?
16:20	technomancy	gfredericks: actually snail-mailing printed patch files would be awesome
16:22	gfredericks	I wonder if snail-mail-DDOS is illegal...
16:22	bbloom	illegal? it's the USPS' business model!
16:23	metellus	yeah, you pay postage
16:23	technomancy	this is such a good idea that I'm wracking my brain trying to think of a patch to send.
16:23	bbloom	technomancy: surely there is a typo in a doc string somewhere
16:24	gfredericks	bbloom: spam and DDOS are kind of complementary things
16:25	benkay_	does anyone recommend resources other than the o'reilly book for learning clojurescript + ecosystem?
16:25	hyPiRion	technomancy: I can give you all rights to http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1134
16:25	hyPiRion	I'll send you a snail mail with my signature on a paper you can send with it
16:25	gfredericks	so core.async isn't in maven yet? folk just installing the snapshot locally?
16:26	technomancy	hyPiRion: haha; no, it should be something that's not in jira yet
16:26	hyPiRion	oh okay
16:26	bbloom	gfredericks: afaict
16:27	QSteven	core.logic: is -inc a thunk wrapper?
16:27	gfredericks	QSteven: yep
16:27	gfredericks	it stands for "incomplete"
16:27	gfredericks	I just found out
16:27	tomjack	oh!
16:27	tomjack	I always thought it was some pun on mplus
16:27	QSteven	gfredericks, and what does this "incompleteness" do?
16:27	gfredericks	I always thought it was just unknowable
16:27	gfredericks	QSteven: lets you "pause" computation
16:27	gfredericks	so it can try other branches if available
16:28	QSteven	gfredericks, but pauzing only makes sense with branches, right?
16:28	gfredericks	I think so
16:28	gfredericks	well
16:28	gfredericks	maybe it's also a general laziness mechanism
16:29	gfredericks	I was going to say for when there are infinite results, but that implies branching as well
16:29	bbloom	have you guys re-read out of the tar pit lately?
16:29	QSteven	gfredericks, I currently have the situation where I'm in an AND chaining of goals and in some circumstances I want to skip the current goal, go ahead with other goals and later try again
16:29	bbloom	i'm pretty sure rich just implemented this paper & called it datomic :-P
16:29	bbloom	i know it's an explicit influence, but damn it's entertainingly similar
16:30	QSteven	bbloom, rich mentions "the tar pit" in one of his recorded datomic talks
16:30	bbloom	yup
16:30	gfredericks	QSteven: this sounds like some sort of fair conjunction
16:30	bbloom	i'm re-reading it now b/c i'm particularly interested in derived values
16:30	QSteven	gfredericks, fair?
16:30	gfredericks	$google fair conjunction status report
16:30	lazybot	[Clojure and me » Fair conjunction: status report] http://clj-me.cgrand.net/2012/04/06/fair-conjunction-status-report/
16:31	bbloom	something datomic does well w/ rules, but is tuned for database use cases
16:31	gfredericks	QSteven: ^
16:31	gfredericks	bbloom: datomic has "rules"?
16:31	bbloom	gfredericks: yeah, for disjunction & arbitrary predicate code
16:32	bbloom	search rules on here: http://docs.datomic.com/query.html
16:32	QSteven	gfredericks, so no luck with sanctioned core.logic?
16:32	gfredericks	bbloom: how have I missed this?
16:32	bbloom	see also http://docs.datomic.com/database-functions.html which discusses "transaction functions" in depth, but non-transaction functions are usable from rules
16:33	gfredericks	QSteven: I imagine not
16:33	bbloom	gfredericks: i dunno :-P
16:33	bbloom	the more i play with datomic, the more i agree w/ fogus' initial review: "ufo appearing over the national mall"
16:34	QSteven	gfredericks, ok, thanks, I'm going to play with bind for a while, maybe that will work
16:34	tomjack	bbloom: is that a positive or negative review? :)
16:34	bbloom	tomjack: positive. it's advanced alien technology
16:35	tomjack	good way to put it
16:35	technomancy	https://www.zazzle.com/rlv/lisp_made_with_secret_alien_technology_t_shirt-r6820c892f43a4ee295b7316f83372e68_804gs_512.jpg
16:35	bbloom	technomancy: awesome.
16:35	gfredericks	bbloom: I LIKE THIS thanks
16:36	bbloom	gfredericks: indeed.
16:36	gfredericks	yeah I have a hard time summarizing datomic to people in a sentence without leaving out at least 80% of the interesting bits
16:37	bbloom	i feel so conflicted about the closed source nature of it, however. on 1 hand, i'm a big believer in "pay me for my high quality software" and all the people involved with datomic deserve to be filthy stinking wealthy for their hard work
16:37	tomjack	"alien" gets at its inscrutability and conjures an image of people fleeing in fear
16:37	tomjack	well the "national mall" bit anyway
16:37	bbloom	on the other hand, i've seen first hand what reliance on proprietary databases can do to your budgets....
16:37	bbloom	on the other other hand, the pricing is relatively reasonable
16:37	gfredericks	bbloom: agreed; I wish there were reasonable/feasible ways to pay people for making digital things.
16:38	gfredericks	bbloom: at my company I'm less worried about budgets and more about what the situation might be like in 5 years
16:38	bbloom	on the other other other other hand, i really like to have the source to things i rely on
16:38	bbloom	yeah.
16:38	gfredericks	in terms of support; also having the source is nice
16:38	gfredericks	fixing bugs, forking when you need to
16:38	tomjack	the path is clear, create more alien technology
16:38	bbloom	i kinda wish there was some middle ground :-/
16:38	QSteven	gfredericks, the blessing & curse of Datomic is that the competition sucks
16:39	bbloom	is this where we laugh at mongodb agan?
16:39	bbloom	lolerskates, mongodb
16:40	bbloom	i guess if you're a large enough client, you can probably negotiate source code escrow or something
16:40	bbloom	but for a little startup, that's not really feasible
16:40	tomjack	for e.g. security audits maybe?
16:41	QSteven	gfredericks, the only thing -inc seems to do in a bind-chain is create an endless loop
16:41	bbloom	more like: we have a support contract & if we can prove that you can't meet your end of the deal, this escrow company releases the source to us so that we aren't fucked
16:42	bbloom	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_code_escrow
16:44	QSteven	it's funny, all important bits in core.logic are grouped in ~60 consecutive lines
16:44	gfredericks	QSteven: that sounds a bit weird. but it takes me forever to wrap my head around core.logic code so I don't think I can help in short order
16:44	QSteven	makes it easier to browse, not easier to understand
16:44	bbloom	QSteven: heh, yes. reading the literature first would certainly help :-)
16:45	xpe	I'm looking for a way to unbind a dynamic var. Mostly for testing. (ns-unmap 'a 'foo) isn't quite what I want.
16:45	xpe	If I ns-unmap then I'll need to do `def` again. I want to get the var back to where it says #<Unbound Unbound: in the REPL
16:45	QSteven	xpe, (binding [myvar nil] ) ?
16:45	tomjack	xpe: (.unbindRoot var)
16:46	xpe	QSteven thanks. tomjack : that might be it!
16:47	QSteven	gfredericks, it's not -inc, it's my crazy thunk that's creating the infinite loop
16:47	gfredericks	QSteven: you're doing your own thunk?
16:48	xpe	,(find-doc "unbind")
16:48	clojurebot	nil
16:48	QSteven	gfredericks, I'm trying to convince core.logic to skip this goal for now and continue to the next goal, I'll do anything that works, so far no luck
16:49	gfredericks	QSteven: you'll probably have to mess with the innards of bind at least; I can't imagine it being easy
16:50	gfredericks	if you don't understand the impl of minikanren then it _definitely_ won't be easy
16:50	xpe	tomjack: I haven't figured out where unbindRoot comes from
16:50	gfredericks	xpe: it's a method on Var
16:52	tomjack	QSteven: you really want constraints
16:52	QSteven	tomjack, my kingdom for a constraint
16:52	Ergh	i'm making a game and i want to decouple the GUI from the gameplay. im thinking i should send events between them, so they dont have to know about each other (well, the gui might still have to read some things from gameplay for rendering). like the GUI receives a mouseclick and sends a move-to event to the gameplay or the gameplay send a "combat"-event so the gui switched to another screen. any tips on what i could use to do that in c
16:52	xpe	,(do (def x 1) (.unbindRoot #'x))
16:52	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
16:52	xpe	tomjack: I think that ^^ will work
16:53	gfredericks	I'm surprised it does
16:53	gfredericks	what about technomancy's geribaldi paradox?
16:54	tomjack	clojure has its own hack for that
16:54	gozala	cane anyone explain or point to a docs that explain what "&" prefixed arguments are ?
16:54	technomancy	please, it's "gilardi scenario"
16:54	gfredericks	technomancy: that's what I said
16:54	gfredericks	gozala: you mean &env and &form?
16:54	gozala	gfredericks: yes
16:54	gfredericks	gozala: those are magical arguments to macros
16:55	gozala	aha
16:55	gfredericks	&env has info about locals; &form is the entire macro-call form
16:55	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: env in this context
16:55	gozala	gfredericks: are they documented anywhere ?
16:55	gozala	I have a feeling that's what I need too
16:56	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Closest I can give you is Garibaldi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Garibaldi
16:56	gfredericks	hyPiRion: I think that's what I was trying to spell
16:57	gfredericks	gozala: I can't find any
16:57	hyPiRion	oh
16:57	hyPiRion	He looks like some logo for a project management tool though, so no wonder
16:57	gozala	gfredericks: so is that just those two names that are special
16:57	gfredericks	gozala: yep; you can see them in the impl of defmacro
16:57	gozala	or any & prefixed args are special ?
16:57	gfredericks	I don't know of anything else prefixed by &
16:58	gfredericks	I think it's a fun idea to use the prefix for anaphoric locals
16:58	technomancy	yeah &env and &form are secret compiler features
16:59	gfredericks	the next macro I make will wrap its output in (let [&& '&] ...)
16:59	technomancy	you monster
16:59	bbloom	(&& this that)
16:59	bbloom	;; if you miss C
17:00	gfredericks	somebody at the local meetup asked why not= instead of != and my only guess was something about lisp traditions
17:00	technomancy	there's no single function that's (comp vals ns-publics) is there?
17:00	technomancy	gfredericks: isn't it more a lack of C traditions?
17:01	technomancy	https://lh3.ggpht.com/-O2VRBGn3-xE/UUoH6dzgg1I/AAAAAAAAA0A/yIN6zoyrNOM/s400/English-Mother-Fucker.jpeg
17:01	bbloom	and ! means something else in clojure....
17:01	gfredericks	what does it mean?
17:01	hyPiRion	mutation
17:01	gfredericks	wat
17:01	hyPiRion	or side-effects
17:01	Foxboron	gfredericks: set!
17:02	hyPiRion	well, usually. it's not anything you're enforced to do though
17:02	gfredericks	Foxboron: send
17:02	amalloy	gfredericks: because C can't afford to have any of its operators contain letters, and clojure doesn't need any operators
17:02	gfredericks	alter-var-root
17:02	gfredericks	if you cared about marking mutation I thin you'd start with that one
17:03	bbloom	amalloy: doesn't NEED, but it does HAVE some…. all of them unary/prefix :-)
17:03	konr``	Can a program in run time import a .jar and use functionalities from it?
17:03	technomancy	hey-pay-attention-the-var-root-is-gonna-be-altered!
17:03	technomancy	konr``: jar files are just zip files
17:03	gfredericks	quick quick (defn alter-var-leaf ...)
17:03	amalloy	bbloom: oh, you mean reader macros like quote? good point
17:03	amalloy	i guess those are basically like operators
17:03	technomancy	konr``: and the compiler is available at runtime
17:03	hyPiRion	I would've expected not= to be /=, then I realized why it isn't.
17:03	bbloom	amalloy: yeah. the most obvious one is @ for deref
17:04	bbloom	that's strictly sugar
17:04	gfredericks	hyPiRion: haha that'd be another special case in the reader
17:04	amalloy	nod
17:04	amalloy	clojure.core//= :(
17:04	gfredericks	also there's the in-ary ** operator that makes a var dynamic
17:04	hyPiRion	Then I had the idea that you could do \= but then I realized that's also not possible
17:04	bbloom	heh
17:04	hyPiRion	and then I gave up
17:04	bbloom	i don't think clojure has any infix or postfix operators....
17:04	gfredericks	hyPiRion: sure it is just make \equal for the "=" character
17:04	amalloy	gfredericks: it's not prefix, postfix, or infix. it's like...outfix?
17:05	gfredericks	amalloy: yeah I was struggling with the word too
17:05	bbloom	unless you consider ; to be the infix comment operator
17:05	hyPiRion	gfredericks: makes perfect sense!
17:05	amalloy	extrafix
17:05	gfredericks	I like outfix
17:05	bbloom	matchfix
17:05	bbloom	mixfix
17:05	bbloom	^^ actual things
17:05	gfredericks	() is the outfix call operator
17:05	QSteven	core.logic: what's the difference between choice & conde?
17:05	hyPiRion	mastermix
17:06	gfredericks	QSteven: choice is an impl detail
17:06	gfredericks	representing a solution and a function to look for alternatives
17:06	konr``	technomancy: but in the case there is only compiled stuff in the jar, can I somehow use it from the running program?
17:07	QSteven	gfredericks, but isn't that what conde does as well?
17:07	bbloom	oh, you know what…. & is basically an infix operator
17:07	gfredericks	omg the macroexpansion of (go) is 63 lines
17:07	technomancy	konr``: oh, in that case you need to use a classloader. it's more complicated but still possible.
17:07	gfredericks	QSteven: at a much higher level; conde uses choice
17:08	gfredericks	if it finds a solution at some point
17:08	bbloom	binds to the left, so an arg list is parsed: [x y z & more] as (varargs [x y z] more)
17:08	bbloom	er i mean binds to the rigth
17:09	gfredericks	bbloom: is midje a pile of operators?
17:09	bbloom	i've avoided looking at midje
17:09	technomancy	gfredericks: it's more of a pit than a pile
17:09	gfredericks	look at that steaming pit of operators with limbs hanging out
17:10	konr``	technomancy: interesting! Thanks!
17:10	hyPiRion	technomancy: tar pit?
17:10	technomancy	hyPiRion: maaaaaybe
17:10	hyPiRion	hehe
17:10	QSteven	bbloom, why? midje is good fun
17:10	amalloy	bbloom: you mean & for varargs? that's surely prefix
17:11	bbloom	QSteven: b/c i'm just not interested in test frameworks much & people bitch about it a lot
17:11	gfredericks	midje bitchers
17:12	QSteven	midje bites midjes bitchers
17:12	bbloom	amalloy: if you were creating an AST node for that, you'd basically have two kinds: FixedArity[x, y, z] and VariableArity[x, y, z, more]
17:12	bbloom	in mathematica notation :-P
17:13	bbloom	the & changes the meaning of it's predecessors/parent ast node
17:13	bbloom	meaning it's a binary relation, not a unary one
17:14	bbloom	in theory, you could represent it ArgList[Arg[x], Arg[y], Arg[z], Args[more]]
17:14	bbloom	but that would imply you could have something like ArgList[Arg[left], Args[middle], Arg[right]]
17:14	bbloom	which clojure can't do
17:15	bbloom	although center splats would be nice in some cases…. but doesn't play nice w/ lazy apply
17:15	bbloom	but that would allow multiple variadic Args, which basically gets you into full on lexing/parsing of an arg list :-P
17:16	bbloom	you could have SplatArgs[{left}, more, {right}] which would only allow you a single splat position :-)
17:17	bbloom	which is what i think coffeescript does in their AST
17:21	QSteven	core.logic: in a bind-chain, when a goal returns an IBind object, the bind method on the object will be called next, correct?
17:22	gfredericks	uh
17:23	danneu	incredible how easy it is to work with bytes when you can just (map int bytes)
17:24	danneu	all day
17:25	gfredericks	,(time (count (map (fn [_] (Thread/sleep 5)) (range 100))))
17:25	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 516.994697 msecs"\n100
17:25	gfredericks	&(time (count (map (fn [_] (Thread/sleep 5)) (range 100))))
17:25	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 593.318556 msecs" 100
17:26	gfredericks	I guess Thread/sleep is not very precise
17:26	gfredericks	not sure why I would expect it to be
17:27	seangrove	What is `alts!` short for?
17:27	tomjack	my guess is "alternatives"
17:27	seangrove	That's what I thought, but I'm not clear on how that applies to what it does
17:27	seangrove	I'll continue reading along...
17:28	gfredericks	takes the first available option from several alternatives?
17:29	bbloom	(inc gfredericks)
17:29	lazybot	⇒ 27
17:29	danneu	this pattern shows up all over my code when i want map->map transformation: (into {} (map (fn [[_ v]] [_ (f v)]) pair)) — is there an even more succinct way to map f over k/v and get a map back out?
17:30	hyPiRion	(into {} (for [[k v] old-map] [k (f v)]))
17:30	danneu	can you find a way to incorporate juxt?
17:30	danneu	i don't mind if it's 2x longer
17:30	amalloy	danneu: juxt doesn't work very well for that
17:30	amalloy	it'd be more than 2x longer
17:31	danneu	yeah, lame joke
17:31	bbloom	(into {} (map (juxt identity f) old-map))
17:31	bbloom	or no
17:31	bbloom	(comp f val)
17:31	gfredericks	I meant to cue amalloy for something different from juxt
17:31	amalloy	but i wrote knit: (defn knit [f g] (fn [[a b]] [(f a) (g b)])), (into {} (map (knit identity f) m))
17:31	bbloom	(juxt key (comp f val))
17:31	bbloom	yeah mess :-P
17:31	seangrove	danneu: Prismatic has a similar function in their plumbing lib: https://github.com/Prismatic/plumbing/blob/master/src/plumbing/core.clj#L32-L37
17:32	danneu	knit looks hot
17:32	tomjack	I quite like (juxt key (comp f val))
17:34	danneu	thanks folks
17:35	seangrove	Ah, and the core.async article falls off of the front page of hn...
17:35	danneu	i like to add a few layers of indirection to my code to counterbalance all the simplicity
17:36	elephantTechno	What's the cleanest way to design sorted stacks ? I think I could embed a PersistentList in a new type with a keyfn and a comparator (like with sorted-map-by), but I'm afraid I'd have to reimplement each functions of the list datatype and delegate them to the embedded list.
17:37	bbloom	elephantTechno: a sorted stack?
17:37	bbloom	do you mean a priority queue?
17:37	elephantTechno	Yes that's what I mean, but sith only one end and not two unlike regular queues
17:38	gfredericks	why is my channel-based pmap hanging?
17:38	bbloom	elephantTechno: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_queue
17:38	bbloom	there isn't really "ends" to a priority queue
17:38	bbloom	you insert somewhere in the middle and pop off the front only
17:38	gfredericks	https://www.refheap.com/16201
17:39	elephantTechno	Another implementation I'v thought of is with a map, having priorities as keys and list of values as values.
17:39	hyPiRion	elephantTechno: could there be multiple equal elements in the priorityqueue?
17:40	elephantTechno	Absolutely
17:40	danneu	what's the name of the concept on macros that forces you to use the octothorpe: (defmacro java-fn [f] `(fn [o#] (~f o#)))
17:40	elephantTechno	It's meant to be used in implementing a branch and bound knapsack solver
17:40	elephantTechno	Gensym ?
17:41	danneu	thanks
17:41	gfredericks	danneu: hygiene?
17:41	danneu	what's the simple description of why gensym is necessary
17:41	elephantTechno	actually I think o# expands to (gensym 'o)
17:41	bbloom	danneu: symbol capture
17:41	danneu	ah
17:41	bbloom	http://dunsmor.com/lisp/onlisp/onlisp_13.html
17:42	danneu	great, thanks!
17:42	hyPiRion	,`o#
17:42	clojurebot	o__29__auto__
17:42	seangrove	Ah, hilarious memories of mistakes with non-hygenic macros...
17:42	bbloom	the gensyming isn't part of the expansion result, it's part of the expanding process
17:43	danneu	now i can stop faking it til i make it with macros i think
17:44	gfredericks	oh I know why; hah.
17:44	gfredericks	async is hard
17:44	hyPiRion	elephantTechno: I would probably use sorted-map-by and let the keys in the map describe the amount of elements with this value
17:45	bbloom	gfredericks: yes, yes it is.
17:45	hyPiRion	unless elements can be equal but different of course.
17:46	bbloom	gfredericks: but somewhere, there is a C hacker who is going NUTS about Golang, but when he encounters some use of higher order functions, he is thinking "functional programming is hard" :-P
17:49	gfredericks	yeah well that guy is wrong.
17:49	gfredericks	but about something unrelated. just because it's hard to not be wrong about at least something.
17:51	elephantTechno	hyPiRion: Ok then I'll try to solve my problem this way. Thank you.
17:51	musicalchair	hmm. is there something funky about document.write? if I eval '(.write js/document "hey") from a cljs.repl.browser, it never returns.
17:52	bpr	musicalchair: maybe your browser isn't connected? try refreshing?
17:52	bpr	beyond that, i have no idea
17:52	musicalchair	it's connected. before evaling that I eval js/alert, +
17:52	bpr	ok
17:52	musicalchair	bpr: hmm ok
17:58	musicalchair	it kind of looks like things hang on the browser side. when I do a '(.write js/document "hey") from my cljs repl, it hangs (as I mentioned before). If I force quit the repl, the browser doesn't notice (normally if the cljs repl is exited the browser will complain about e.g. a failed 'POST' request)
18:00	musicalchair	with '((fn [] (js/alert "1") (.write js/document "hey") (js/alert "2"))) I see both alerts (and the write) but control is never returned to the repl
18:06	defn	technomancy: Syme is having some issues. I'm
18:07	defn	In a cab so I can't check it out.
18:08	defn	technomancy*
18:38	ejbs	Would you call '(1 2 3) a "symbol" in Clojure-land?
18:38	ejbs	Or is it (quote (1 2 3)) which returns the list (1 2 3)?
18:40	hyPiRion	it's not a symbol
18:40	SegFaultAX	ejbs: It's just a list.
18:40	hyPiRion	,(symbol? '(1 2 3))
18:40	clojurebot	false
18:40	danneu	(class '(1 2 3)), (class (quote (1 2 3))), (class (list 1 2 3)) - all PersistentList
18:41	ejbs	Yeah, that's what I thought, thanks.
18:42	SegFaultAX	ejbs: Just remember that we have to quote lists in particular since the (...) form is most often used for function application.
18:42	SegFaultAX	Eg ##(+ 1 2)
18:42	lazybot	⇒ 3
18:43	SegFaultAX	But if I quote that form, I can get a list that contains those elements: ##'(+ 1 2)
18:43	lazybot	⇒ (+ 1 2)
18:43	SegFaultAX	Perhaps a little clearer: ##`(+ 1 2)
18:43	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/+ 1 2)
18:43	SegFaultAX	clojure.core/+ is the fully qualified symbol.
18:44	jro_	any suggestions for Trie-library for clojure?
18:44	ejbs	SegFaultAX: Oh yeah, I know. I was just reading this page: http://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/clojure/ and I was on my way to issue an issue on Github about it but I just wanted to make sure that you don't call that a symbol in Clojure (which, IMHO, would be totally weird of you to do)
18:46	ejbs	Thanks for all the help!!!
18:46	SegFaultAX	ejbs: Well I assumed you asked if it was a symbol because of the ', which is obviously incorrect so I was trying to clarify. :)
18:47	ejbs	SegFaultAX: Dude, I'm not complaining, you're awesome for helping out :). I'm just clarifying why I'm asking
18:48	SegFaultAX	ejbs: Sweet! Good luck.
18:48	ejbs	Thanks!
19:02	musicalchair	if I have a protocol P where P is extended to (java) interfaces A and B, how does clojure dispatch if I have an object implementing both A and B?
19:20	arohner	musicalchair: I'm not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if that follows Java's rules for dispatch
19:24	r0bgleeson	how do Java classes map in clojure?
19:25	ptn777	r0bgleeson: what do you mean by map? do you mean how do you call a java class from a clojure program?
19:25	r0bgleeson	ptn777: kind of, i assume clojure doesn't have a notion of a 'class' in clojure itself, so im just curious how that works
19:27	r0bgleeson	for example can i create a java class from clojure?
19:29	r0bgleeson	maybe my thinking is totally dumb, but my comparison is jruby, where concepts map between java + ruby
19:30	ptn777	r0bgleeson: did you read this? http://clojure.org/jvm_hosted
19:30	ptn777	that's a clojure program using swing stuff
19:31	callen	r0bgleeson: but if you actually want to use swing, please use seesaw
19:33	SegFaultAX	r0bgleeson: There are a great many things in clojure that will generate a new class, gen-class not the least of them.
19:34	r0bgleeson	ptn777: didnt see that, great read though, i had seen the dot notation and not really understood it
21:23	horofox_	can somebody help? http://pastie.org/8095755
21:23	horofox_	the question is: why does when I hardcode number as "0000000001" works
21:24	horofox_	and when I use let it doesn't work
21:37	bbloom	horofox_: your problem isn't a datomic one, it's a clojure/lisp one
21:37	horofox_	so, help me :D
21:37	bbloom	consider: ,(let [x 5] 'x)
21:37	bbloom	,(let [x 5] 'x)
21:37	clojurebot	x
21:37	bbloom	quoting prevents evaluation
21:37	bbloom	notice you get a symbol, not a number
21:38	bbloom	what you're doing is comparing to see if the field is equal to the symbol 'number
21:38	bbloom	you need to add parameters as a data source: http://docs.datomic.com/query.html
21:39	horofox_	bbloom: so, in my example, how it would be?
21:39	horofox_	the right way
21:40	bbloom	horofox_: you need to add a :in clause and then add another argument to the q call. see the docs
21:41	horofox_	i can't get it how to use a data source...
21:41	bbloom	horofox_: think of it like template parameters
21:41	bbloom	(render-template the-template the-template-parameters)
21:42	bbloom	search that page for "Peer.q" and for ":in"
21:42	horofox_	how do i set the number variable in my case to be $number?
21:43	horofox_	i feel very dumb reading those docs trying to do something practical :(
21:43	bbloom	are you reading them? or are you skimming/scanning them to find the answer to your question?
21:43	bbloom	the datomic docs are extremely dense
21:43	bbloom	they are meant to be read top to bottom
21:44	bbloom	jumping in at any particular spot will have insufficient context to help you
21:44	horofox_	i'm trying to do the simplest thing ever...
21:44	bbloom	which is plainly demonstraited on that page in several places that i pointed out to you....
21:44	bbloom	teach a man to fish and all that...
21:45	horofox_	i'm trying to find a entity where a key matches a value...
22:02	horofox_	bbloom: thanks
22:02	horofox_	bbloom: it worked
22:02	bbloom	horofox_: hopefully you learned a few other good things while you were in there reading
22:02	bbloom	happy to help
22:06	horofox_	btw
22:07	horofox_	datomic is awesome :)
22:08	horofox_	is there any startup that uses diatomic in production?
22:08	horofox_	datomic*
22:13	echo-area	horofox_: How much capacity can datomic provide? I mean the data-size/QPS etc
22:13	horofox_	echo-area: i don't know, i'm just studying the technology.
22:13	echo-area	horofox_: Is it suitable for the "Big Data"? (I quote because I don't quite like the term)
22:14	echo-area	Okay
22:57	horofox_	question, i see maps with keys like :user/name, does the / means something or is it just coding style?
22:58	tbaldridge	horofox_: it's the namespace of the keyword. It really doesn't do much, except allow you to have multiple :???/name keywords that are not equal
22:58	horofox_	i see
22:58	tbaldridge	btw, if I am in the namespace (ns myproject.core) then the following are true:
22:59	tbaldridge	(identical? ::name :myproject.core/name)
22:59	tbaldridge	and if I (:require [clojure.string :as s]) then the following is true:
23:00	tbaldridge	(identical? ::s/name :clojure.string/name)
23:00	tbaldridge	horofox_: anyway, that's just some random info about keywords :-)
23:01	horofox_	this is good :)