#clojure – 2013-06-17

2013-06-17

00:00	ddellacosta	cemerick: but self-hosting cljs would probably be better anyways, if you mean something loading in the browser env itself (?)
00:00	dnolen	hrm was going push out the first core.match beta but doesn't seem to want to build ...
00:00	cemerick	ddellacosta: yup
00:01	ddellacosta	cemerick: gotcha. Yeah, that would certainly be the best I think.
00:02	tomjack	hmm, you've discovered a new collection type? :)
00:02	ddellacosta	alright, I'm going to grab some lunch. cemerick: thanks for the help and pointers, I'll keep trying new things and try to communicate any new strategies I learn for getting my workflow/tooling smoother.
00:02	dnolen	tomjack: doubtful :)
00:02	cemerick	ddellacosta: https://github.com/kanaka/clojurescript/
00:03	ddellacosta	ah, sweet.
00:03	cemerick	ddellacosta: np, and thanks :-) Maybe I'll squeeze off a 5m video sometime :-)
00:03	ddellacosta	sad the last commit is 4 years back. :-(
00:03	ddellacosta	cemerick: that'd be great!
00:03	cemerick	what, no
00:03	ddellacosta	oh, maybe wrong branch then
00:04	ddellacosta	yeah, that's weird, huh, since the README reference 2013
00:04	ddellacosta	2012 I mean
00:04	cemerick	ddellacosta: something's wonky...cljs isn't even two years old
00:04	ddellacosta	yeah, good point..heh
00:04	tomjack	dnolen: looking at Complier that's really the only explanation I can think of, though..
00:04	ddellacosta	cemerick: yeah, clearly the commit log shows recent commits, so something is weird there. Anyways, will check it out.
00:05	dnolen	tomjack: eh, probably Hudson weirdness
00:05	tomjack	all the constructor calls for EmptyExpr are guarded with IPersistentCollection checks
00:06	tomjack	but it's not a list, vector, map, or set? boggling
00:06	cemerick	dnolen: I'd try wiping the hudson workspace and triggering a new build
00:06	dnolen	cemerick: how do you do that?
00:06	cemerick	dnolen: click on workspace, then 'wipe'
00:07	cemerick	then start a build
00:07	tomjack	hmm, PatternRow is a new collection type, irrelevant?
00:07	dnolen	cemerick: ok giving that a shot
00:08	cemerick	dnolen: that's the "clean" of the hudson world :-P
00:08	dnolen	tomjack: hrm, but why would that matter?
00:09	dnolen	cemerick: didn't work
00:09	dnolen	tomjack: and PatternRow has been a collection for a long time now
00:09	tomjack	but you just started AOT'ing, yes?
00:10	tomjack	doesn't make sense that it would break on hudson and not locally though
00:10	cemerick	dnolen: your project.clj requires clojure 1.5, but the default contrib pom specifies 1.4?
00:10	tomjack	actually
00:10	tomjack	I get the same error locally
00:10	dnolen	tomjack: yes I've been testing AOT locally
00:11	dnolen	cemerick: oh hmm
00:11	dnolen	tomjack: what are you doing to repro?
00:11	tomjack	mvn compile
00:12	tomjack	from master
00:13	dnolen	tomjack: yeah just tried that worked
00:14	dnolen	oops actually spoke too soon
00:16	tomjack	if PatternRow were the culprit I'd guess some macro would have to be returning one in the code it emits?
00:17	tomjack	and an empty one
00:20	dnolen	tomjack: pretty sure it's as cemerick says 1.5.0 issue
00:23	tomjack	seems so
00:23	tomjack	which is even more confusing to me
00:25	tomjack	because EmptyExpr seems the same in the relevant respects
00:25	dnolen	huzzah
00:25	tomjack	if not all respects
00:25	dnolen	core.match-beta1 is out!
00:26	dnolen	no more scary AOT warnings!
00:41	dnolen	it's remarkably satisfying that this stuff "just works" in CLJS
00:53	tomjack	so, what, using as-> and cond-> caused that crazy compiler error? O_o
00:54	dnolen	tomjack: no, I think marker protocols was the problem
00:58	tomjack	interesting
01:00	tomjack	https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/7xa7Yg0-htc/fG1HuBozewwJ
01:00	tomjack	so the fix was a workaround in emit-protocol
01:03	dnolen	beta2 going out
04:14	ddellacosta	so, "null" and nil are not the same thing in ClojureScript??
04:14	lazybot	ddellacosta: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
04:14	ddellacosta	??
04:14	lazybot	ddellacosta: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
04:14	mthvedt	??
04:14	lazybot	mthvedt: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
04:14	ddellacosta	didn't know lazybot did that. heh.
04:14	mthvedt	lazybot: are you well programmed??
04:14	lazybot	mthvedt: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
04:15	r0bgleeson	ddellacosta: did what, aritificial intelligence?
04:15	ddellacosta	r0bgleeson: no, responded with something specifically when you had double-question marks (if my conclusion is correct.)
04:16	ddellacosta	r0bgleeson: although, I guess maybe that's what you meant, so yes.
04:17	r0bgleeson	ddellacosta: i was making a lame joke :)
04:17	ddellacosta	r0bgleeson: ah, haha…sorry, I'm feeling a bit slow at the moment. ;-)
04:47	Guest15375	@borkdude Hello
04:47	borkdude	Guest15375 hi
04:48	Guest15375	@borkdude Nathan and Bram here, we have a question
04:48	borkdude	yes
04:49	borkdude	I'll turn on Skype
04:50	Guest15375	@borkdude Is good, are you available on the HU?
04:50	borkdude	Guest15375 my skype name is michielborkent - no, from 14:00 I'm at the HU
04:51	Guest15375	@borkdude Inventation has been sent.
04:55	wei_	how do you serve a static html file in a compojure route?
04:59	clgv	wei_: route/files
04:59	clgv	wei_: with compojure.route :as route
04:59	wei_	clgv: could I give it a name that's not the original filename?
05:00	Raynes	Eh
05:00	wei_	oh i se
05:00	Raynes	wei_: Just do (let [static (slurp your-file-or-resource)] (defroutes …)) and serve it however you like it.
05:00	Raynes	That's what I do.
05:00	Raynes	More or less
05:01	wei_	thanks
05:01	clgv	Raynes: but that keeps the file in memory which is not suitable in all use cases (very many large files...)
05:02	Raynes	uh
05:02	Raynes	clgv: If your HTML files are that large, you're going to have a hell of a time serving that data at any decent rate anyways.
05:03	Raynes	Unless you've got 20 100MB HTML files, you're probably okay.
05:03	clgv	Raynes: oh, the question was to html files only - I did miss that ;)
05:04	wei_	there are huge html files, but mine is not one of them
05:08	bsmith	hi, i'm new and trying to understand code from ring
05:08	bsmith	(defn- ^SimpleDateFormat formatter [format] ...)
05:08	bsmith	does ^SimpleDateFormat have any effect here? or is it just to communicate the return type to the reader?
05:09	antares_	bsmith: and to the compiler, too
05:11	bsmith	what effect does this have during compile-time or run-time? will it throw if the function returns a different type?
05:11	bsmith	is there a doc on clojure.org that explains this? sorry, i couldn't find one
05:12	borkdude	bsmith this is called type hinting
05:12	borkdude	http://clojure.org/java_interop#Java Interop-Type Hints
05:12	antares_	bsmith: Clojure functions are compiled to Java classes that have invocation methods. They can take arguments of specific types or just Object, the same goes for return value.
05:13	antares_	bsmith: Clojure compiler only considers type hints as advice and has limited type inference. it does not perform type checking. JVM also performs very little type checking but mis-hinting argument types won't come unnoticed most of the time, at runtime.
05:14	bsmith	great, thanks to both
05:14	antares_	bsmith: I highly recommend http://clojure-doc.org, by the way
05:15	callen	just wish clojuredocs would get updated.
05:15	callen	antares_: how do you feel about a clojurewiki?
05:16	antares_	callen: not sure what that is
05:17	callen	antares_: thinking of making a wiki for Clojure, like EmacsWiki
05:18	antares_	callen: well, if the goal is to improve Clojure doc guides, just contribute to clojure-doc.org
05:18	antares_	(which has a bit too much stuff because of how enthusiastic we were in the beginning, admittedly)
05:19	antares_	emacswiki has a lot of stuff Emacs docs will never cover
05:19	callen	antares_: contributing to clojure-doc is really annoying.
05:19	antares_	for that, more resources make sense
05:19	antares_	callen: how?
05:19	callen	antares_: and AFAICT, it doesn't really cover the core docs use case like clojuredocs.
05:19	antares_	it's markdown in a pull request on github
05:19	callen	antares_: dude, that's unacceptable. I'm sorry.
05:19	antares_	how much more straightforward can it be?
05:19	callen	antares_: it's about friction, not obviousness.
05:20	antares_	callen: hm
05:20	antares_	callen: have you tried contributing to clojure at all?
05:20	antares_	THAT'S unacceptable and friction
05:20	callen	antares_: I really don't care about core dev in this context
05:20	callen	antares_: their sins don't excuse yours.
05:20	antares_	callen: you can literally edit markdown on github.com
05:20	callen	why is it easier to accumulate knowledge collaboratively for a text editor than a programming language + ecosystem?
05:20	callen	antares_: yeah, still don't care.
05:21	antares_	how much more convenient can it be?
05:21	callen	antares_: it's not, at all.
05:21	antares_	callen: sounds like you just "don't care for markdown". I don't care for wikis.
05:21	callen	it has nothing to do with markdown
05:21	antares_	wikis are too hard to keep structured
05:21	callen	in fact I planned on using md for the wiki.
05:21	antares_	callen: then how is it radically easier to edit a wiki page?
05:21	callen	if you don't understand the value of immediacy I can't really help you.
05:21	callen	antares_: just say, "no, I don
05:22	callen	't see the value of a wiki"
05:22	antares_	callen: I really don't think people contribute solid docs on the spot
05:22	callen	and leave it at that.
05:22	antares_	like, let me JUST WHIM OUT SOME DOCS, RIGHT NOW
05:22	antares_	no, that's not how it works
05:22	callen	you clearly haven't worked on a wiki.
05:22	antares_	callen: yes I have, for many years. It's fucking terrible.
05:23	antares_	wikis are undstructured mess unless you have an army of people and rules enforcing the structure, like Wikipedia does
05:23	antares_	you same some time for writers
05:23	antares_	and waste oceans of time for readers
05:23	antares_	in any case, I don't mind you starting a wiki
05:23	antares_	clojure-doc.org content is "free to steal", CC 3.0 licensed
05:23	antares_	I don't believe the language documentation needs another resource
05:24	antares_	and API reference (clojuredocs.rg) has nothing to do with clojure-doc.org, it was never a goal to provide an API ref
05:24	callen	antares_: I didn't say it was
05:24	antares_	the new clojuredocs.org, whenever it is ready, can be integrated into clojure-doc.org
05:24	callen	antares_: I wasn't talking about clojure-doc at all.
05:24	antares_	but it's still a separate resource, with an API
05:25	antares_	callen: there is a wiki at dev.clojure.org for the cool kids with paper CA (read: living in America)
05:25	antares_	it's not updated very often
05:25	callen	antares_: I hate JIRA
05:25	antares_	in theory, it provides the benefits of a wiki
05:25	callen	and I don't want a wiki that requires CA
05:25	antares_	that I can understand
05:25	callen	antares_: if you're going to offer suggestions, at least think first.
05:25	callen	antares_: if I want a low friction way to accumulate knowledge about clojure and the wider ecosystem, why would dev.clojure suffice?
05:26	antares_	callen: you know what, I will probably go work on some OSS code instead of arguing you
05:26	callen	antares_: I just wanted to know if the notion of a wiki seemed useful to you or not.
05:27	callen	a simple no would've sufficed.
05:27	antares_	callen: wikis suck. There is no need for another doc resource. Spend your time helping with the new clojuredocs.org. That's all I have to say.
05:27	callen	what new clojuredocs?
05:27	callen	as far as I aware, it was derelict.
05:27	antares_	clojuredocs.org in Clojure, without being locked into a particular version http://github.com/clojuredocs
05:27	antares_	and with an API
05:28	antares_	the repo name is eisago
05:29	callen	antares_: it was last updated 7 months ago.
05:29	antares_	callen: I will write a blog post about it
05:29	antares_	callen: so?
05:30	callen	and it's still not live
05:30	antares_	callen: the original author no longer has time
05:30	antares_	callen: are you arguing to death about anything or just with me?
05:30	antares_	fuckin make it go live
05:30	callen	why invest effort with no guarantee it would go live?
05:30	antares_	hahahahaha
05:30	antares_	callen: that's not how OSS works
05:30	antares_	finish the code, deploy it, here, you have it live
05:31	callen	it's not even what I want
05:31	callen	what I want is the core docs + wiki
05:31	callen	I don't give a damn about an API either.
05:31	antares_	callen: it is what clojuredocs.org has today
05:31	antares_	+ API
05:31	antares_	callen: well you don't but it's useful
05:31	antares_	a yet another wiki? no
05:31	antares_	tools developers care about API reference having an API
05:32	antares_	IDE plugin authors, nrepl integration hackers, etc
05:33	antares_	you think I asked someone's permission to start clojurewerkz.org or clojure-doc.org, making sure it is "guaranteed to go live"? No, we just did it, it is live. That's how things work in the OSS community.
05:33	callen	antares_: I've run into problems in the past where somebody else owned the domain/trademark and I couldn't deploy a copy
05:33	callen	antares_: and if I wanted changes to go live, I had to harass them
05:33	callen	antares_: please stop pompously educating me on how "OSS works"
05:34	antares_	callen: well, if you develop a clojuredocs.org replacement, I will point api.clojure-doc.org or reference.clojure-doc.org to it, I promise
05:34	callen	I've already said it isn't what I want, contributing to it wouldn't make sense.
05:35	antares_	callen: I have no idea what you want then, but it's clearly something that YOU have to do
05:35	antares_	contributing to things that are useful to the community are not your thing, I gather
05:35	callen	no, it just makes sense.
05:35	antares_	good luck. No need to ask anybody for an opinion next time :)
05:35	callen	if I don't understand what I'd want out of it, I'm less capable of producing something nice and useful.
05:36	callen	That's just basic usability.
05:36	callen	all I wanted to know was if a wiki would be useful. Not to be put through the wringer.
05:37	antares_	ok, I'm sorry
05:39	callen	antares_: it's fine, I just find it puzzling how people seem to think spontaneous content creation that doesn't belong to Stack Exchange wouldn't be useful.
05:42	antares_	it is useful, I was talking about language documentation
05:46	callen	antares_: well if the new clojuredocs is a thing, then I can just focus on the wiki and hope that comes together.
05:47	antares_	callen: most of it is done, I hope to work on it after we ship our next clojurewerkz library
05:48	antares_	it also has a library that extracts docstrings and such from the code
05:48	antares_	at the very least you can reuse that
05:49	callen	antares_: oooh, what's the next clojurewerkz library?
05:49	antares_	http://clojurecassandra.info
05:49	callen	Very cool :)
05:49	antares_	needs the docs finished and a proper announcement, currently at RC4
05:50	antares_	built on the new DataStax Java driver, pretty similar to clojure.java.jdbc in scope and API style
06:26	noncom	why does in COMPOJURE something like (GET "/test" [] {:a "aaa" :b "bbb}) retuns an empty page with no html code at all, and (GET "/test" [] (str {:a "aaa" :b "bbb})) returns a page with the textified map?
06:27	noncom	i mean why does not it turn the map into text by itself and yields nothing from it?
06:27	mpenet	because when you return a map it's supposed to follow the response spec
06:27	mpenet	from ring
06:27	mpenet	{:body "prout"}
06:27	mpenet	if you want an output
06:28	mpenet	a string return value will be fed to :body automagically
06:28	noncom	mpenet: oh i see! nice thing actually! didn't get to this point at docs, but thank you!
06:28	mpenet	noncom: https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/master/SPEC
07:05	m00nlight	Hi, if I build an web app using compojure, I can access the app through the localhost or even the machine in the same cluster, but can not access outside, what probabilily make this ? I can not access even I close the iptables
07:13	noidi	m00nlight, maybe your behind a NAT?
07:13	noidi	*you're
07:13	m00nlight	noidi: Yeah, I think so. My personal computer behinde an NAT,
07:15	m00nlight	noidi: So what maybe the problem?
07:18	noidi	m00nlight, you need to forward a port on the NATing device to your computer
07:18	noidi	m00nlight, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_forwarding
07:20	m00nlight	noidi: if the server has an external IP, I still need forward a port?
07:20	m00nlight	noidi: The server has an external IP address
07:21	clgv	m00nlight: you are probably behind a router and need to forward the port at the router to your server
07:23	m00nlight	clgv: If I can not make change to the router server, is there any way to solve it? I can do anything on the server my application was on
07:24	clgv	m00nlight: you definitely need the system that is "in front of" your server to forward the port
07:26	m00nlight	clgv noidi: Thanks for your help
07:30	clgv	m00nlight: just to clarify, you rent a server in a computing center?
07:46	loz	hi
07:47	loz	how should i install data.json library?
07:47	loz	if i dont have a clojure project, its needed for rails/clojurescript?
08:01	cemerick	loz: Neither Clojure or ClojureScript libraries are "installed". They are obtained and tracked by a project file like those used by Leiningen.
08:04	loz	cemerick: i already found jar snapshots
08:05	loz	but i still got
08:05	loz	Exception in thread "main" java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/data/json__init.class or clojure/data/json.clj on classpath:
08:05	cemerick	loz: are you using Leiningen?
08:05	loz	i dont have clojure project
08:06	cemerick	that's problem #1
08:06	loz	does this error mean data.json is not in classpath?
08:07	cemerick	yup
08:14	loz	cemerick: should i add to classpath every .jar which bootstrap downloads?
08:14	loz	like google-closure-library-0.0-2029-2.jar
08:15	cemerick	loz: Unless you have a really good reason, you should be using leiningen.
08:15	loz	its rails dude
08:16	loz	and there is plugins for rails wich downloads and setups clojurescript
08:16	loz	plugin*
08:16	loz	and looks like this plugin is a bit outdated
08:16	cemerick	loz: don't konw what to tell you then. I suspect you'll find everyone else here (whenever they wake up, ;-) will repeat the same line about leiningen.
08:17	cemerick	perhaps ask whoever put together this rails/clojurescript integration how things are supposed to work there?
08:18	loz	okey, ill continue my investigation)
08:19	tomjack	script/bootstrap should download data.json
08:20	loz	tomjack: yep, but plugin doesnt include it into classpath
08:20	loz	gonna include every jar bootstrap downloads
08:20	loz	and try
08:20	loz	ls
08:20	lazybot	dev etc lost+found media root src
08:21	loz	haha lol
08:23	cemerick	loz: could you link to this rails/clojurescript thing?
08:23	loz	sure
08:23	loz	https://github.com/maximvl/clementine
08:23	loz	there is a blog post link on how to setup it
08:25	loz	oh and i gave you my fork link)
08:25	cemerick	np
08:25	cemerick	so this clojurescript source tree in /ext -- this is an example of the whole rails "vendoring" practice?
08:26	loz	idk im new to rails :D
08:28	cemerick	funny, reminds me of JSP precompilation
08:29	loz	is this code correct?
08:29	loz	(ns app)
08:29	loz	(defn ^:export init []
08:29	loz	(js/alert "initializing!"))
08:29	loz
08:29	loz	want to call ns.init() from html
08:30	loz	*app.init()
08:31	loz	cause now i get
08:31	loz	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol
08:31	loz
08:39	xeqi	cemerick: looks like thats a ruby project, but its a similar concept
08:40	cemerick	xeqi: Yup. Quite upsidedowninsideoutbackwards to me, but whatever. :-)
08:41	xeqi	heh, its recommended for external code. here is a rubygems guide showing it for a C wrapper http://guides.rubygems.org/c-extensions/
08:42	cemerick	xeqi: don't mind me being curmudgeonly. I'm merely a ruby/rails observer, never used the stuff.
08:43	xeqi	cemerick: well now you've peaked my curiousity. Hows jni or the .net equivalent find the native code?
08:44	xeqi	*piqued
08:45	cemerick	xeqi: You can put C or C++ right into a .NET project, the tooling there saves you all of the legwork needed for mixed architecture stuff elsewhere. There's some details around whether the resulting assembly is managed or not, but I've long forgotten them.
08:47	cemerick	xeqi: JNI is a PITA. JNA is much more sane...and even so, it's really rare to have a mixed e.g. C + #{Java, Clojure, Scala} codebase. Generally, you're just linking to a library pulled from apt or whatever.
08:48	loz	xeqi: do you have any experience with cljs on rails?)
08:48	cemerick	Rails aside, it seems to be a common thing in ruby only because so many of its modules are apparently thin C wrappers
08:49	hyPiRion	xeqi: oh, JNI is painful. Anything very low-level is painful in general
08:50	xeqi	loz: nope
08:51	cemerick	hyPiRion: ever used JNA? It wasn't so bad, last time I used it (~2 years now)
08:54	hyPiRion	cemerick: I was more thinking about low-level jvm stuff, such as catching POSIX signals or throwing file decriptors from a process to another
08:54	hyPiRion	I managed to find a way to catch POSIX signals, although if the method which handles the exceptions throws an exception you end up with a segfault
08:55	hyPiRion	/s/exceptions/signals/
09:23	futile	mthvedt: it's gonna be kinda weird that each "group" is self-contained, because each one's :parent key will contain another group, rather than reference it.
11:01	stuartsierra	JNI isn't that bad. You can skim the docs and get something running in half an hour.
11:04	wink	that's like "you can skim the recipe and not die eating what you cooked"
11:05	llasram	That is the best analogy I've heard all week
11:05	bpr	that is pretty classic
11:07	janpaulbultmann	Any thoughts on how to do co recursion with let bindings? akin to this https://gist.github.com/ticking/5797558
11:09	llasram	janpaulbultmann: Lazy sequences which references themselves sometimes work, but as an implementation side-effect. They generally are not a good idea
11:11	janpaulbultmann	llasram: thanks, noted :)
11:24	mikerod	Has anyone used clojure-maven-plugin and experienced it hanging for a pretty long time when compiling the last Clojure file. The file doesn't seem to matter, it just freezes up a while after the last "Compiling file.clj" line.
11:25	Lajjla	mikerod,
11:25	Lajjla	the Ashtadhyayi is the single most brilliant thing ever made by man
11:28	mikerod	Lajjla: I'm not sure I follow you...
11:28	Lajjla	mikerod, do you know what it is?
11:28	mikerod	I had to look up this Ashtadhyayi, and the most relevant meaning I could find is its relation to language theory.
11:28	Lajjla	It's essentially a formal definition of the grammar of Sanskrit in some sort of backus-nauer esque form
11:28	Lajjla	made 400 BCE.
11:28	Lajjla	A formal definition of the grammar of a natural language.
11:28	Lajjla	At that time
11:28	Lajjla	It took up to the 20th century before western linguistics could catch up.
11:30	mikerod	Lajjla: That is quite interesting. hah
11:31	mikerod	Lajjla: You found that this relates to clojure-maven-plugin? :)
11:31	Lajjla	mikerod, panini also innovated the destinction of the phone to the phoneme
11:31	Lajjla	mikerod, not at all.
11:31	Lajjla	It is far more important
11:31	Lajjla	because it is the single most brilliant thing ever
11:32	Lajjla	the Ashtadhyayi fully defines the grammar of sanskrit with zero redundancy
11:32	ohpauleez	it's unclear if this is spam or a troll
11:32	ohpauleez	but either way, it's irrelevant
11:32	mikerod	Lajjla: Well, I am enlightened now.
11:32	ohpauleez	haha
11:32	ken_barber	lol
11:33	Lajjla	ohpauleez, please, this is something anyone should know.
11:33	Lajjla	The Ashtadhyayi was two millennia before its time
11:33	llasram	Oddest spammer ever
11:33	ohpauleez	yes
11:33	ohpauleez	for real
11:34	Lajjla	it innovated the formal system, it gave a rudimentary definition of a finit etate machine, it innovated the destinction between the phone and the phoneme
11:34	ohpauleez	can we get an admin?
11:34	Lajjla	How can you consider appreciation for such a monumental effort spam?
11:34	Lajjla	What kind of willfully ignorant person are you to not recognise the significance of the ashtadhyayi, nor its brilliance.
11:35	mthvedt	i feel like the time cube guy has found a new hobby
11:35	llasram	Lajjla: No matter brilliance, it is far off topic for this channel, and thus contextually spam
11:36	Lajjla	Brilliance ought never to be off topic.
11:36	Lajjla	Besides
11:36	Lajjla	it stands at the very fundament of programming languages.
11:36	ohpauleez	We've recently had a bit of an issue with spammers in the channel (most likely because of our charming personalities and stunning good looks)
11:37	ohpauleez	nonetheless, it's a good way to get you kicked
11:37	Lajjla	Please, I've been doing this for 5 years in this channel.
11:37	Lajjla	Raynes loves me.
11:37	Lajjla	Do you not raynes?
12:03	futile	Thinking it's nearing done: https://github.com/evanescence/test2/blob/master/SPEC.md
12:03	futile	It addresses the issues amalloy_ and mthvedt have recently brought up.
12:07	bbloom	futile: why are there still noun suffixes on everything?
12:07	bbloom	(runner finder reporter) => (run find report)
12:07	bbloom	they are functions, not abstractions, right?
12:09	bbloom	and another nit pick: to me, "find" implies searching for one or a few specific things. "discover" implies searching for anything that you might uncover.
12:14	futile	bbloom: I think of them as roles, not just functions.
12:15	futile	bbloom: the fact that it's currently a function is incidental (although they'll likely always be functions)
12:15	bbloom	futile: you are specifying them to be functions....
12:15	futile	bbloom: i like the idea of renaming finder -> discoverer though
12:15	futile	bbloom: yes. but i still think of them as roles.
12:15	futile	bbloom: it's hard to refer to them in the documentation as verbs:
12:15	bbloom	futile: that's just leftover OOP brain damage :-)
12:16	futile	bbloom: it may be so. let me look through the spec for a second.
12:16	bbloom	(str "the " role " function")
12:16	futile	maybe its not as ugly as im thinking to say it
12:16	futile	"The Runner does not need to return." -> "`run` does not need to return."
12:16	futile	I can see that.
12:16	bbloom	yup
12:17	bbloom	i'm sure somebody already pull this move on you:
12:17	bbloom	~nouns
12:17	clojurebot	excusez-moi
12:17	bbloom	~kingdom
12:17	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
12:17	bbloom	blah.
12:17	bbloom	~noun
12:17	clojurebot	LINE-ing-en ['laɪnɪŋən]
12:17	futile	bbloom: yea i saw that
12:17	futile	didnt read it yet, but yeah
12:17	futile	i mean i skimmed it
12:17	futile	yegge is verbose
12:17	mthvedt	bbloom: having a test file full of "run"s seems confusing
12:17	bbloom	yes, yegge is very verbose
12:18	bbloom	mthvedt: no, you have a test file full of tests…. you only need one run function
12:18	mthvedt	sorry, misread
12:18	TimMc	If this is who I think it is: /ignore -replies !g2g2go2@
12:19	TimMc	Oh, it's the other one.
12:19	futile	bbloom: for example, a "Definer" is an extension that happens to provide one or more ways to define tests. it may not even use functions, it may use macros
12:19	mthvedt	but the objection works for finder and reporter… i think the idea is that you might have other impls
12:20	futile	bbloom: but the Definer is really the extension, which serves a purpose, does a role, but its still the extension itself, which is a noun.
12:20	rlb	what's the name of the command line library that automatically handles sub commands?
12:20	rlb	i.e. "$ foo cmd ..."
12:21	bbloom	futile: this is a trivial matter of word smithing
12:21	bbloom	futile: rename your sections to "Definitions", "Assertions", "Discovery", "Execution", and "Reporting"
12:21	bbloom	rename the finder/runner/reporter functions to discover/run/report
12:21	bbloom	or discover/execute/report
12:22	bbloom	you don't need to reify the "roles"
12:22	devn	rlb: er, not sure?
12:22	futile	bbloom: fancy
12:22	rlb	devn: ok, thanks -- someone posted it either here or on the list a while back, but now I can't recall the name.
12:22	futile	bbloom: I like that idea. But I think it's a last priority, and I'd like to get the rest of the spec itself mostly finished before I go s/this/that/ anything.
12:23	mthvedt	i would remove the nouns definer and asserter, but keep the other ones
12:23	bpr	#p
12:23	bpr	bleh
12:24	rlb	devn: I assumed I'd be able to find it via web search when I wanted to go back and look at it, but so far, no luck.
12:24	devn	rlb: i did a cursory search for you
12:24	devn	but no dice
12:25	devn	rlb: is it an argument parsing library then?
12:25	rlb	yes
12:25	rlb	I thought it was posted by someone from one of the clojure companies I'd heard of, but don't recall...
12:25	rlb	(there was a github page, etc.)
12:25	rlb	devn: anyway, thanks -- I'm sure I'll find it eventually.
12:25	mthvedt	oo style nouns like 'asserter' are loaded with the idea that you're talking about closures with behavior
12:26	mthvedt	behavior that fits an interface to some other lib
12:26	rlb	devn: if I recall correctly, the lib made it easy to specify the sub-commands and their behavior.
12:26	mthvedt	but asserters are consumers of the test2 interface
12:26	bbloom	mthvedt: yeah, when i see an actor suffix like -er or -or, i assume there is state in that thing
12:27	devn	rlb: i found an old one: argparse4clj (https://github.com/tatsuhiro-t/argparse4clj)
12:27	futile	bbloom: that sounds like a faulty assumption on your part, not a bad definition
12:27	rlb	devn: yeah -- that's not the name I recall
12:27	rlb	devn: it was some other lib for parsing command lines with sub-commands.
12:28	bbloom	futile: more of a conservative heuristic than a faulty assumption
12:28	mthvedt	but i think e.g. 'reporter' is OO in the sense that a reporter is expected to fit an interface and have some behavior
12:28	mthvedt	OO-lite
12:31	mthvedt	maybe clojurians might prefer 'report-fn' over 'reporter', i dunno
12:32	bbloom	mthvedt: yes. if you want to differentiate between a report data structure and the report function
12:32	TimMc	ohpauleez: Unfortunately, I think chouser and rhickey are the only ones with ops.
12:33	ohpauleez	TimMc: Yeah, I saw the message on the mailing list - perhaps we'll get some more admins in here
12:35	bpr	mthvedt: very much so
12:35	futile	ohpauleez: for what?
12:36	bpr	mthvedt: but, report is ok for me as well
12:36	ohpauleez	futile: There's been a slight rise in spammers in the channel
12:36	futile	oh? hadn't noticed.
12:36	ohpauleez	and it's bothering some people enough that they raised the issue
12:36	futile	I see.
12:36	ohpauleez	I didn't either, until this morning
12:37	TimMc	It's very sporadic.
12:37	ohpauleez	yes
12:43	futile	Okay, notified mailing list. Expecting to get yelled at again for some reason.
13:09	loliveira	hi, does somebody know some good Facebook library?
13:33	futile	Oh no!
13:33	futile	Sometimes the same function isn't = to itself!
13:35	futile	,(= = =)
13:35	clojurebot	true
13:35	futile	,(= = (eval '=))
13:35	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
13:36	futile	Oh right.
13:36	futile	,(load-string "=")
13:36	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
13:36	futile	:(
13:36	futile	,(= = (var-get (resolve '=)))
13:37	clojurebot	true
13:37	futile	bultitude!!
13:37	futile	At least I think that's what's making this not equal :(
13:37	ianeslick	If I want to extend a map, such as adding sorting capability (we'll call the extended type an Index), what is the proper strategy? I want to change it so that (seq) returns sorted pairs, vals and keys are sorted, etc
13:38	futile	ianeslick: if you aren't married to the idea of extending Map, you could just return [[k v] [k v] ...] already sorted.
13:39	ianeslick	I'm creating a new data type that wraps the functionality of a remote database (scalable key-value stores).
13:39	futile	ianeslick: i.e. ##(sort-by :a [{:a 3 :b 3} {:a 1 :b 1} {:a 2 :b 2}])
13:39	lazybot	⇒ ({:a 1, :b 1} {:a 2, :b 2} {:a 3, :b 3})
13:39	ianeslick	I'm building an in-memory testing version first
13:39	futile	Uhh, oops.
13:39	ianeslick	So this is a subproblem
13:39	futile	ianeslick: oh
13:40	futile	,(sort-by :a [{:a 3 :b 3} {:a 1 :b 1} {:a 2 :b 2}])
13:40	clojurebot	({:a 1, :b 1} {:a 2, :b 2} {:a 3, :b 3})
13:40	ianeslick	Use a map to simulate a remote key-value store without re-implementing or wrapping Map
13:40	ianeslick	I have some new protocols for transforming Index Values to a smaller Index based on range, value-filter, or other constraints.
13:40	futile	ianeslick: fwiw we just have a function that takes mongo "objects" and converts it to a real-live Clojure map
13:40	futile	ianeslick: but that's the last of my helpfulness on this topic
13:41	futile	(if it even is such)
13:41	ianeslick	Yeah, Mongo had a production bug about a year ago that screwed me hard - never used it after that. Silently dropped writes after you updated a particular structure too often.
13:42	ianeslick	Want to have semantics that are separable from the underlying store so it's: a) easier to reuse existing clojure coding methods but still have clean semantics and b) be independent of a particular backend.
13:42	ianeslick	I'm starting with DynamoDB, but may need to leave Amazon later this year for legal reasons.
13:42	ianeslick	So I need an in-memory testing version + a production DDB version of the type.
13:42	ianeslick	Still feel like I don't fully understand protocols!
13:43	Wild_Cat`	ianeslick: note that DynamoDB doesn't sort anything.
13:43	Wild_Cat`	wait, no, it does. It sorts by range key
13:44	Wild_Cat`	but hash keys are arbitrarily-ordered.
13:44	futile	Oh no! (require :reload) makes = no longer work on functions, because it gives them a new ptr! Dang.
13:44	ianeslick	Yes, so you have to have hints that tell the interface how to construct keys for range queries
13:44	futile	Okay okay, calm down.
13:44	futile	Is there another way to compare two functions as being equal when in a test?
13:44	ianeslick	I'm only generalizing enough for my simple application
13:45	Tuplanolla	How can I automatically reload Clojure files in the repl when they change?
13:45	technoma`	futile: you have to compare vars
13:45	futile	technoma`: :( that's what I was afraid of.
13:45	hyPiRion	humm
13:45	futile	technoma`: because in test2 we agreed to move away from vars for the internal representation of tests, so now my tests have false negatives
13:46	futile	i.e., (= {:func test-1} (find-test-1-somehow)) fails
13:46	futile	blast! foiled again.
13:47	Tuplanolla	Setting up the toolchain is really difficult.
13:48	ianeslick	Is there a way to compare the source code of the function?
13:48	ianeslick	In some toolchains that is stored in the Var metadata
13:48	ianeslick	(or something like that)
13:48	futile	hyPiRion, technoma`: does this seem too horrible to live in a test? (= (.getName (type test-1)) (find-test-1-somehow))
13:49	ianeslick	So, no hints on best practice for creating a derived version of Map with new behaviors and some extra protocol implementations?
13:49	Tuplanolla	There's ring.middleware, but it's essentially undocumented, so I have no idea how to use it.
13:50	patchwork	Tuplanolla: It doesn't reload automatically when source changes, you have to (require :reload '[your.namespace :as x])
13:50	dnolen	ianeslick: it's a bit of work, look at how defrecord is implemented
13:50	Tuplanolla	I want to avoid doing that.
13:50	technoma`	Tuplanolla: there are ways to make it work, but it's way easier to just get your editor to trigger the reload.
13:50	technoma`	since it knows when you save already
13:51	technoma`	futile: if everyday testing requires stuff like that then yeah; pretty bad. depends on context though.
13:51	Tuplanolla	I'm not so sure about IDEA.
13:51	patchwork	laneslick: you can have all this functionality without deriving a new Map implementation
13:51	weavejester	Tuplanolla: What do you mean by ring.middleware? The middleware in the official Ring libraries?
13:51	mthvedt	futile: why not compare assertions to know you've found the right test
13:52	futile	mthvedt: thats disproportionally harder
13:52	Tuplanolla	This, weavejester: https://github.com/weavejester/ring-reload-modified
13:52	weavejester	ianeslick: Unless you want polymorphism, you don't need to use protocols to add new functionality
13:53	mthvedt	if you're just smoke testing discovery, you could even compare return values
13:53	weavejester	Tuplanolla: That should have a deprecated note on. The functionality has been rolled into ring-devel for a while now.
13:53	ianeslick	I want to have many of the existing clojure methods work with the new types, and there will be multiple implementations of the protocols (different stores and two different data types)
13:54	Tuplanolla	I don't see the note anywhere. I'm just trying to set things up.
13:54	weavejester	Tuplanolla: Nope, that's why I said "should" :). I'll add the note to the readme.
13:55	weavejester	Tuplanolla: If you use lein-ring, it will setup reloading for you automatically.
13:55	weavejester	Tuplanolla: Otherwise you can wrap your handler in ring.middeware.reload/wrap-reload
13:55	futile	(inc lein-ring)
13:55	lazybot	⇒ 1
13:55	futile	Have been very pleased with it.
13:56	ianeslick	Basically I'm adding two new immutable datatypes that support the sequence and map interface, but have different implementations underneath. I also have two 'store' classes that return these new values and process inserts and updates in coordinated ways (insert!, update! an indexed kv-store and append! a searchable log)
13:56	Tuplanolla	There seem to be a lot of web things related to it. I don't need any of that.
13:56	arcatan	Tuplanolla: if (require :reload ...) is too much, tools.namespace offers you simple call to (refresh)
13:56	dnolen	ianeslick: sure, but what kind of guidance are you looking for? just implement the interfaces you care about.
13:56	arcatan	you'll lose your state, though
13:57	ianeslick	dnolen: I probably need to re-implement most of the map interfaces as the underlying semantics are different and I don't think there's an easy way to change the implementation of an existing type.
13:58	dnolen	ianeslick: it's in fact impossible
13:58	ianeslick	dnolen: Ok, that's helpful!
13:58	dnolen	ianeslick: and you have no inheritance, you just need to implement everything yourself
13:58	Wild_Cat`	ianeslick: do you need real immutability, or could you make do with java.util.TreeMap?
13:59	weavejester	ianeslick: Are you implementing a new immutable data structure?
13:59	dnolen	ianeslick: you can compose and delegate of course if that's your cup of tea - again see defrecord
13:59	Tuplanolla	So what's the non-deprecated way of doing it, weavejester?
13:59	patchwork	laneslick: I feel like the whole issue is your requirement that it work with existing clojure map code. That seems misguided
13:59	weavejester	Tuplanolla: Are you creating a website or web service or something else?
14:00	patchwork	Just have it work as a library, and call your code explicitly
14:00	patchwork	It is not a clojure map
14:00	patchwork	so it shouldn't work with clojure map syntax
14:00	weavejester	Tuplanolla: reload-modified and it's successor in RIng, ring.middleware.reload, are just for Ring
14:00	Tuplanolla	My first project, weavejester.
14:00	ianeslick	No, the idea is to create a datatype that supports clojure interfaces so the new types fit into the system neatly.
14:00	Tuplanolla	The most basic setup.
14:00	ianeslick	Why create new interfaces and new accessors to reproduce what Clojure already supports?
14:01	ianeslick	weavejester: Yes, new immutable structure that is consistent across a cluster of machines.
14:01	weavejester	Tuplanolla: But what is it? The purpose of your application depends on how you reload it. For instance, if you're creating a web application, you can check for new files on every request.
14:01	Tuplanolla	I just don't want to spend half of the time writing (reload) or hitting up to find it in the command history.
14:01	arcatan	Tuplanolla: what editor do you use?
14:01	Tuplanolla	IDEA at the moment, arcatan.
14:02	technoma`	hrm; should get refresh hooked into nrepl auto-discovered commands
14:02	arcatan	okay. i'm not familiar with IDEA.
14:02	weavejester	ianeslick: I'm not sure I completely understand. By definition, an immutable structure is always consistent.
14:02	patchwork	ianeslick: Because they are not built in clojure maps. We create new datatypes all the time, they just don't need to act like the native types
14:02	patchwork	they come with their own interface
14:02	ianeslick	Wild_Cat`: Immutability allows consistent reads, even if references are passed across the cluster. Side effects are managed by a proxy class that talks to the underlying datastore.
14:03	ianeslick	weavejester: Yes, but the concept of a value is different than the implementation of it. I need to pass 'values' between nodes without passing a terabyte of data.
14:03	arcatan	Tuplanolla: in Emacs you'd connect to nrepl and press C-c C-k to load the file you're working on to the repl. i'm sure something similar is possible with IDEA.
14:03	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
14:03	Tuplanolla	I've tried emacs, but the keys are painful with a foreign keyboard.
14:03	technoma`	clojurebot: forget Tuplanolla: in Emacs you'd connect to nrepl and press C-c C-k to load the file you're working on to the repl. i'm sure something similar \|is\| possible with IDEA.
14:03	clojurebot	I forgot that Tuplanolla: in Emacs you'd connect to nrepl and press C-c C-k to load the file you're working on to the repl. i'm sure something similar is possible with IDEA.
14:03	ianeslick	That means the abstraction provides an immutable view of an external resource (think HBase used in a write-mostly fashion and keeps history)
14:04	patchwork	ianeslick: That is such a specific use case that I wouldn't want it masquerading as built in clojure types
14:04	ianeslick	Architecturally this is solving similar problems that Datomic solves, but in a write-scalable rather than read scalable fashion.
14:04	weavejester	ianeslick: Ah, okay, so you have some large immutable data structure somewher that's referred to by a UUID or cryptographic hash, presumably.
14:05	ianeslick	weavejester: basically. Tablename + Timestamp + Key is always consistent
14:06	weavejester	ianeslick: And presumably you want a way of doing things to the data structure, like conj etc. without loading it into memory first.
14:06	Tuplanolla	I'm just trying to find a simple setup. I'm a scientist, not a system administrator.
14:06	ianeslick	weavejester: Should say that Tablename + Timestamp in HBase allows me to construct a cluster-wide consistent view of a datastructure. That table is reified as a new type Index which supports performant scan and filter operations server-side.
14:07	arcatan	Tuplanolla: this tutorial suggests that IDEA/La Clojure has "Load file to REPL", "Execute last S-Expression in REPL" etc. http://blog.tomeklipski.com/2013/04/running-and-debugging-clojure-code-with.html
14:07	arcatan	Tuplanolla: have you tried using those?
14:07	ianeslick	weavejester: My use case is more restricted than the low-level API requires, but common enough to justify some up-front work. (I also have a Log structure which operates similarly).
14:08	weavejester	ianeslick: My thought is that the mechanisms for working with a distributed database over one in memory are different enough to warrant a new namespace, even if the function names are the same.
14:09	Tuplanolla	That seems to work, kind of. It doesn't trigger on save or change the namespace though. I'll have to see if there's a button to send snippets to the repl.
14:09	weavejester	ianeslick: e.g. (require [foobar.distributed :as d]) (d/conj remote-structure new-value)
14:09	ianeslick	weavejester: One decision I made similar to Datomic was to separate side effects from read-only interactions. I don't create derived Immutable values by a local conj because I need to catch side effects made by remote systems - so the new type supports keyword access, get, seq, etc but not conj, assoc, etc.
14:10	ianeslick	A Store type handles new operations insert/update/append and returns new Index and Log types which interoperate with clojure's built-in read operations.
14:10	weavejester	ianeslick: That seems like all the more reason to treat it differently from in-memory data structures. Don't use clojure.core/get - use your-lib.distributed/get.
14:10	ianeslick	Store is easy. Could be done with multi-methods, but Index/Log should probably be types.
14:11	ianeslick	weavejester: That's a good argument.
14:11	ianeslick	weavejester: Easier than implementing clojure's internal interfaces too
14:12	technoma`	Tuplanolla: I'm working on a tool to help expose server-side functionality like refresh easily across any editor, but it's still in early stages: https://github.com/technomancy/nrepl-discover
14:12	technoma`	no one seems interested in implementing it for non-emacs editors so far though =\
14:12	Tuplanolla	Clojure is developing so quickly, half of the materials I find on the internet are already deprecated.
14:12	weavejester	clojure.core.reducers takes that approach - it has its own versions of map, reduce, etc. with subtly different semantics.
14:12	weavejester	And I'm taking that approach with my FRP library
14:13	ianeslick	weavejester: Reuse the clojure idioms and clearly produce 'local values' for processing by clojure at some point, but allow interactions with new types to be done in a new namespace.
14:13	ianeslick	weavejester: Perhaps I was over-influenced by my work with Datomic.
14:13	Tuplanolla	I'll follow that progress, technoma.
14:13	ianeslick	weavejester: Where Entities behave alot like Maps, implementing a subset of clojure interfaces
14:14	ianeslick	My Index type a collection just like that.
14:15	weavejester	ianeslick: I didn't realize datomic did that. I'd assume that there aren't any side-effects to treating an Entity as a map, though?
14:15	ianeslick	weavejester: So eschew niceties like keyword lookups, collection as IFn, etc?
14:16	technoma`	Tuplanolla: if it does get picked up, it'll probably be implemented in eclipse before idea.
14:16	weavejester	ianeslick: I'd still use IFn… maybe keyword lookups too...
14:17	weavejester	ianeslick: I guess things that I can port directly I would, but anything which doesn't quite fit would need a new function.
14:17	ianeslick	weavejester: They do something interesting. A Connection accepts transactions to update the database, produces immutable Database types which support queries that return Entities which are immutable. You cannot derive new Entities except by submitting transactions to Connections and getting a new Database + Entities.
14:17	Tuplanolla	If only Eclipse wasn't so slow at everything...
14:17	ianeslick	Entities are tied to a particular point-in-time Database value.
14:18	weavejester	ianeslick: It sounds like Entities are in-memory and immutable, but have additional constraints over maps.
14:18	ianeslick	weavejester: Easier to implement a custom index/get than the java Map interface to use the built-in get. I can always backport from a custom namespace later.
14:18	ianeslick	weavejester: Yes, took a bit to get used to writing code based on maps you couldn't augment directly.
14:18	ianeslick	weavejester: via assoc
14:18	technoma`	Tuplanolla: I've never used it; I've just noticed they seem to be more on top of things
14:18	weavejester	Interesting...
14:19	ianeslick	You basically end up with a separate read path and a write path in your code. Makes everything much more transactional - write a big pure function which takes an immutable value, generates a set of 'diffs', and then transactionally commits those diffs, or rolls back and retries with the latest Database value.
14:20	ianeslick	Tranactions can include functions that run on the transactor, so you can avoid most rollbacks based on local read-modify-write operations.
14:20	Tuplanolla	It starts for fifteen minutes and using content assist with the whole JDK 7 included freezes the context menu for five minutes.
14:20	ianeslick	Gives you cluster wide transactability, but all your data manipulation is based on in-memory cached covered indexes of the current state.
14:20	weavejester	ianeslick: In my libs, I've tended to extend generic and simple interfaces like IDeref and IFn, but I find that the more complex the interface the less likely it is that it will fit in exactly. And if it doesn't fit, I don't force it; I just create a new function in a new namespace.
14:20	ianeslick	weavejester: You've sold me on that as an interim if not final strategy, thanks. Just the advice I was looking for.
14:21	futile	All this pain is making me rethink using vars again in the official data representations, /cc mthvedt amalloy et al
14:26	Tuplanolla	IDEA seems to be also missing documentation. I guess I'll have to use emacs.
14:27	bpr	learning emacs is an investment that pays off many times over
14:27	bpr	though, it is an investment
14:28	Tuplanolla	I learned the basic usage, but had to give up on the shortcut mess. There's ergoemacs I'll have to try though.
14:28	justin_smith	I prefer to think of it as technical speculation in the technical lottery that keeps printing winning tickets
14:29	technoma`	ergomacs is a bit nutty
14:31	weavejester	Has anyone use LightTable in a serious project? Maybe that's another possibility.
14:32	CaptainLex	weavejester: I'm about to begin in using LightTable in a serious project
14:33	technoma`	was there the gsoc project for clooj?
14:35	hiredman	I'd like an in browser clojure editor for my chromebook, adobe brackets looks interesting, but they don't have it working in browsers yet (it uses a custom browser app thing similar to lighttable)
14:38	hiredman	I tried to get brackets running as a chrome extension, but errors seem to be swallowed for some reason, and something is clobbering the console object so logging doesn't work, and all the jquery defered stuff proved too much for me
14:39	ianeslick	weavejester: The easy/most useful interfaces for a type seem to be Seqable, IFn, IDeref, Ilookup, IKeywordLookup and maybe IHashEq, IObj. Seqable basically lets me turn an index into a sequence and then the usual clojure stuff will work. So (filter <pred> (index/scan index <start> <end>)), index/scan returns a new index, filter calls .seq to get a linear sequence and filters the scanned result. I also have an index/filter which will do server side
14:39	ianeslick	filtering - the general performance model is to push filters into the index to get a reduced sized index to reduce network traffic then do clojure ops on the returned standard clojure collections and values.
14:53	dnolen	cemerick: good point about js/Date IEquiv, I've backed that out of master
14:53	cemerick	dnolen: gah! :-P
14:54	CaptainLex	So does the classes-and-interfaces vector in proxy actually not take multiple members?
14:54	cemerick	dnolen: what about number and string, then?
14:54	cemerick	oh, the string extend is for keywords
14:54	dnolen	cemerick: those are safe - they don't modify prototypes
14:54	weavejester	ianeslick: Those all seem reasonable interfaces to implement
14:55	cemerick	dnolen: I guess there's a subtle difference between Date and e.g. Number?
14:55	dnolen	cemerick: which won't last for long when we optimize constants
14:55	dnolen	cemerick: there's a big difference, CLJS doesn't modify real JS natives, proto implementation lookup is done via hashtables
14:56	cemerick	dnolen: but through prototypes for non-native classes, I guess.
14:57	cemerick	Maybe whatever whitelist that exists for strings and numbers can be extended. Not being able to e.g. test for date equality is rough.
14:58	dnolen	cemerick: actually we can't back it out yet
14:58	dnolen	cemerick: yes I put it back and noted we could add special handling, patch welcome
15:01	tomjack	is "add comment about possible future change" the comment about possible future change?
15:18	Bronsa	mh
15:18	Bronsa	http://sprunge.us/MOKh
15:18	Bronsa	this looks wrong to me
15:20	dnolen_	Bronsa: I'd be surprised if defrecord validated non-basis keys
15:20	bbloom	Bronsa: the problem seems to be the second output, not the third
15:21	Bronsa	bbloom: yeah.
15:21	dnolen_	Bronsa: bbloom: I think you'd be likely to hear that the issue is the third
15:22	Bronsa	dnolen_: but records can be used effectively as maps
15:22	bbloom	dnolen_: record reader forms accept extra keys
15:22	bbloom	dnolen_: https://www.refheap.com/15852
15:22	dnolen_	Bronsa: bbloom: just a hunch given that defrecord are a performance optimization like structs
15:23	dnolen_	what's the point of putting arbitrary keys in there if you care about perf at all
15:23	bbloom	dnolen_: you care about perf of access to the core fields
15:23	bbloom	dnolen_: records allow extra fields for annotations & non perf critical things like that
15:23	Bronsa	this potentially causes some records that are valid at runtime to be non readable back
15:23	Bronsa	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LispReader.java#L1237-L1242 the check is done explicitely though.
15:24	tomjack	core.async's ioc-macros is an in-the-wild use case that occurs to me
15:24	dnolen_	Bronsa: bbloom: in anycase my point is, it's not clear to me that records are designed to permit semantically non keyword keys
15:24	dnolen_	I maybe wrong about that
15:24	tomjack	well those are all keywords
15:24	dnolen_	but that's what the behavior sits on
15:25	dnolen_	and the explicit check in the Reader backs me up
15:27	bbloom	dnolen_: i see no reason why they shouldn't allow keys of other types. that works just fine at runtime. the issue is the reader is unnecessarily restrictive.
15:27	tomjack	the explicit check just seems bizarre to me
15:27	Bronsa	maybe it is a leftover from early experimentations on record
15:27	Bronsa	I relly see no point in that check
15:27	bbloom	Bronsa: that would be my guess
15:28	bbloom	semantically, records are pretty much just maps with a minimum set of keys and a type differentiator
15:28	bbloom	practically, they are faster for read/write access to those minimum keys
15:28	tomjack	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-800
15:29	Bronsa	tomjack: yeah, I was just reading that
15:29	tomjack	don't see any explanation
15:29	bbloom	yup
15:35	dnolen_	bbloom: Bronsa: hmm I was thinking perhaps struct-maps were limited in this way - but it turns out not. So perhaps you all are right.
15:35	tomjack	maybe symbols are disallowed because allowing them brings up the question of whether they should be evaluated?
15:36	Bronsa	tomjack: I don't think so
15:36	Bronsa	#foo.bar{:foo bar} is valid
15:36	Bronsa	and bar is not evaluated
15:36	tomjack	ah
15:37	bbloom	I'm 99% sure this is a reader bug
15:37	tomjack	that seems odd to me
15:38	tomjack	not that I really want them to be evaluated, but the inconsistency vs a regular map seems odd
15:39	bbloom	tomjack: it's consistent with respect to tagged literals, but that came later :-P
15:40	bbloom	,{:x 'y}
15:40	clojurebot	{:x y}
15:40	tomjack	in that it is just impossible to have your tagged literal type evaluate symbols inside?
15:40	bbloom	i guess you need to use edn/read-whatever when reading clojure maps
15:41	bbloom	tomjack: it's not impossible, you just need to call eval :-/
15:41	bbloom	or do symbol resolution
15:41	tomjack	well not at read-time clearly
15:41	bbloom	it does seem odd that records don't work precisely the same as maps in this respect
15:41	tomjack	but eval on some funky object is identity, so there's nothing you can do about how it evals
15:41	tomjack	(right? I don't understand that stuff)
15:42	bbloom	tomjack: you don't eval the result of the reader, you eval while building the result of the reader
15:42	bbloom	(def x 1) (eval 'x) => 1
15:43	tomjack	that doesn't make sense to me
15:44	tomjack	say `#funky {:foo a}` returns, uh, some funky map-like thing. a deftype? you don't want to eval 'a at read-time. if you wanted map-like semantics you'd want to eval 'a when the deftype is eval'd, but you have no control
15:44	tomjack	or am I totally confused? feels that way
15:45	bbloom	oh yeah, you're right, sorry
15:46	bbloom	i guess the fundamental issue is that {:foo "bar"} means (hash-map :foo "bar") but #whatever{:foo "bar"} means #<someobjecthere>
15:47	bbloom	bbloom: i guess the real thing is you need to know "am i quoted?" when reading the literal
15:48	bbloom	lol i just bbloom:ed myself. whoops
15:48	bbloom	dnolen_: this is related to the constants work w/ cljs. tagged literals are inherently constants: they can't do any evaluation
15:48	bbloom	same for records
15:49	bbloom	this is why :map, :vector, and :set need to be special forms
15:49	bbloom	b/c they need to do something different depending on context
15:49	amalloy	bbloom: {:foo "bar"} doesn't mean (hash-map :foo "bar"). it doesnt' read to a list, it reads to a map
15:49	bbloom	amalloy: it means both depending on how it's used
15:49	bbloom	amalloy: if quoted, it means a map. if unquoted, it means code which builds a map
15:50	bbloom	amalloy: if unquoted and recursively constant, it can mean a map as an optimization
15:50	amalloy	that is a bizarre claim. in what case does the reader see input {} and return (hash-map)?
15:50	bbloom	amalloy: it doesn't
15:51	Bronsa	'`{}
15:51	Bronsa	,'`{}
15:51	clojurebot	(clojure.core/apply clojure.core/hash-map (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat)))
15:51	Bronsa	,'`()
15:51	clojurebot	(clojure.core/list)
15:51	bbloom	Bronsa: ehhh. that's cheating. that's the behavior of syntax-quote
15:51	amalloy	sure, backquoting, although i'd argue that it's ` doing that, not {}
15:51	mefesto	\quit
15:51	bbloom	amalloy: consider {:foo (query-the-internet)}
15:52	bbloom	that doesn't do anything until that line of code is run
15:52	bbloom	it's logically equiv to (hash-map :foo (query-the-internet))
15:53	amalloy	welllllll, i wouldn't say it's logically equivalent, since that doesn't really mean anything useful. but i see the distinction you're making re: deftype objects
15:53	amalloy	ie, that (eval some-deftype-object) doesn't eval its fields, whereas (eval some-hashmap) evals its fields
15:59	tomjack	looks like CLJ-374/800 added cases in Compiler/analyze for IRecord/IType to ConstantExpr
15:59	Bronsa	yep
16:00	tomjack	where IPersistentMap gets a MapExpr which always emits a PAM/PHM
16:01	tomjack	I guess letting people control eval would be nuts?
16:01	Bronsa	you'd need hooks in the compiler
16:02	hiredman	luckily lisp has a mechanism for tha
16:02	hiredman	t
16:02	hiredman	«»
16:02	hiredman	feh
16:02	hiredman	quotation
16:03	Bronsa	hiredman: I'm not sure how that matters
16:03	futile	welp
16:04	hiredman	"I guess letting people control eval would be nuts?"
16:04	Bronsa	hiredman: quoting only prevents evaluation
16:04	Bronsa	there's no way to "make it happen"
16:06	Bronsa	user=> `#user.foo{:a ~'a}
16:06	Bronsa	#user.foo{:a (clojure.core/unquote (quote a))}
16:06	Bronsa	this kinda sucks
16:06	tomjack	I've considered having data readers look for unquote :/
16:08	tomjack	but thinking about it, they can't do anything useful even if they look for it, huh
16:08	bpr	Bronsa: maybe i'm missing context, but what sucks about that?
16:08	futile	tomjack: https://github.com/evanescence/test2/blob/master/SPEC.md
16:09	bpr	if you have a reader registered for #user.foo, doesn't it provide the apropriate data-type?
16:09	Bronsa	bpr: http://sprunge.us/FdRB
16:09	Bronsa	bpr: user.foo is a record not a tagged reader
16:10	bpr	oh
16:11	tomjack	I guess you should just be using `(map->foo {:a ~'a}), similarly for data readers
16:12	tomjack	like you don't use #db/id in code, you use datomic.api/tempid
16:15	bpr	Bronsa: does using a tagged data literal to properly construct your record work as expected?
16:16	dnolen_	bbloom: unrelated, I had a copy of that functional parsing paper you sent along. I'd come across it when looking into how people built parsers in Prolog
16:16	bbloom	dnolen_: yeah, was really cool that it also served as a generator :-)
16:19	tomjack	which paper?
16:20	dnolen_	"A Functional-Logic Perspective of Parsing"
16:25	tomjack	intriguing
16:25	tomjack	I had written <*> in my little LogicT experiment
16:25	tomjack	and <\|> is just mplus?
16:26	Hetu	thanks for the paper tip dnolen_
16:27	dnolen_	tomjack: I never actually read too much about LogicT
16:27	tomjack	confirmed <\|> is mplus in LogicT source at least
16:31	tomjack	I'd guess you'd get what the paper shows with LogicT ((->) Rep) something. but wtf is something?
16:36	tomjack	hmm probably not
16:39	dnolen_	tomjack: are you referring to the original LogicT paper?
16:40	tomjack	yeah
16:40	tomjack	I dunno what changed between the paper and http://hackage.haskell.org/package/logict though
16:41	tomjack	(if there are important differences I refer to the package not the paper)
16:43	dnolen_	tomjack: hrm, sounds like the repo is an "adaptation" ?
16:43	dnolen_	tomjack: I don't read Haskell good
16:44	tomjack	yeah, I hadn't noticed till now that the author of the package is not one of the authors of the paper
16:44	tomjack	I think they're the same in spirit
16:44	tomjack	I did notice at least one implementation difference
16:45	akells`	let's say I have a method get-file-size that returns a particular file's size. How would I properly construct a java ByteArrayOutputStream with that size? I'm making a binding for out to that ByteArrayOutputStream, so I'm trying (binding [out (ByteArrayOutputStream. (get-file-size file) out)]
16:45	akells`	but I'm getting No matching ctor found for class java.io.ByteArrayOutputStream -- I know I'm just missing something simple, but I can't seem to make it work
16:46	bpr	akells`: cast (get-file-size file) to an int
16:47	bpr	also, out doesn't need to be in the call to the constructor
16:47	akells`	thanks for your response, bpr. I'll double check that its an int
16:47	akells`	oh, okay. I guess maybe I've been doing that wrong then.
16:49	dnolen_	tomjack: hmm I don't know enough Haskell to say but the original looks pretty straightforward and library you linked to busts out some fancy extensions
16:50	tomjack	extensions?
16:50	dnolen_	tomjack: language extensions
16:52	tomjack	guess that's inherited from MonadReader etc
16:53	tomjack	I was hoping to avoid that stuff..
16:53	tomjack	the parsing paper appears not to use monads at all which is promising
17:02	tomjack	hmm, parser_rep is only an applicative if the representation is a monoid
17:11	tupi	hello, i have a quiz about clojure/imagej interaction. i wrote a simple clojure script which execute a watershed command over an image, the clojure script is just a couple of lines really. right now i run the script as 'imagej test_2.clj', but i actually would prefer [to enhance these script with 'real' clojure code...] to call this script through clojure itself, telling where the imagej jars are .. is this possible ?
17:42	tomjack	working out any relation between LogicT and the parsing paper has proved difficult
17:44	antares_	New ClojureWerkz project, Cassaforte: a Clojure Cassandra client built around CQL 3.0: http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/06/17/introducing-cassaforte/
17:48	tupi	how can i tell clojure where to find extra classes ?
17:50	puredanger	tupi: Clojure runs on the JVM and the JVM finds classes via classloaders, most commonly by the system classloader that reads classes from the "classpath", a list of "class containers", which may be directories or JAR files (basically just zips)
17:50	tupi	puredanger: here is what i try:
17:51	tupi	java -cp clojure-1.4.0.jar clojure.main /usr/lpdi/projects/fiji/plugins/test_2.clj
17:51	tupi
17:51	tupi	which does not wotk because it does not know ehere imagej clases are, and there are here:
17:51	tupi	/usr/local/src/Fiji.app/jars
17:52	puredanger	-cp defines the classpath - add jars to it like: -cp clojure-1.4.0.jar:/usr/local/src/Fiji.app/jars/XYZ.jar:...
17:52	tupi	ah, merci! trying
17:53	puredanger	java 6+ can also use the specific wildcard format of /the/dir/* to add all jars (in arbitrary order) to the classpath
17:53	puredanger	note this is not general glob support - it only works with just "*".
17:54	puredanger	in general, I highly recommend using a build tool (leiningen or if you hate life, perhaps Maven) to assemble your classpaths for you
17:54	technoma`	further proof that writing /usr/bin/java was a task that Sun delegated to the interns
17:54	puredanger	technoma`: ha, yeah
17:54	puredanger	can't tell you how many times I've written *.jar only to get burned
17:57	tupi	java -cp clojure-1.4.0.jar:/usr/local/src/Fiji.app/jars clojure.main /usr/lpdi/projects/fiji/plugins/test_2.clj
17:57	tupi	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: ij.IJ
17:57	tupi
17:58	tupi	test_2.clj starts like this: (import '(ij IJ)
17:58	tupi	'(ij ImagePlus))
17:59	puredanger	what's the actual full Java class name with package?
18:01	tupi	puredanger: i don't know
18:02	tupi	my knowledge of java is close to null [and will remain so i am afraid]
18:02	puredanger	tupi: try doing something like jar -tf /usr/local/src/Fiji.app/jars/YOUR.jar \| grep IJ
18:02	puredanger	I don't know what YOUR.jar should be but jar -tf will list all classes in the jar and grep should find the IJ class ?
18:04	tupi	trying
18:08	puredanger	tupi: your import looks ok if you have an ij.IJ Java class
18:09	tupi	yes, that i know because the script runs if i run it 'from' imagej
18:10	puredanger	can you post your whole command line?
18:10	tupi	it does not find the jar, i don't understand
18:11	tupi	pure i did already, i think
18:11	tupi	java -cp clojure-1.4.0.jar:/usr/local/src/Fiji.app/jars clojure.main /usr/lpdi/projects/fiji/plugins/test_2.clj
18:11	tupi
18:12	atyz	Hi guys, i feel dumb for asking but does this namespcae no longer exist? clojure.contrib.string
18:12	puredanger	you need to put the actual name of the jar after /jars - the directory is not sufficient
18:12	puredanger	atyz: no, you should use clojure.string
18:13	atyz	does that contain substring?
18:13	puredanger	no! :)
18:13	tupi	oh this won't be possible with real code, there are hunderds of jars in imagej
18:13	puredanger	but subs is actually part of core now
18:13	puredanger	tupi: you can use .../jars/* if you want to get them all
18:13	tupi	ok
18:14	puredanger	atyz: (subs "foobar" 3) ==> bar
18:14	atyz	puredanger: i dont' want a substring, basically i want a check to see if a string is a substring
18:14	atyz	so i could use (.contains "abcd" "bc")
18:15	futile	Evening.
18:15	futile	I mean, hi.
18:15	puredanger	atyz: ah, first see: http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
18:16	atyz	puredanger: thanks
18:16	puredanger	atyz: second, you can go the Java route with (.indexOf "foo" "oo")
18:16	puredanger	which returns the position of the substring
18:17	puredanger	but perhaps better to use the re-* functions to do regex matching depending what you're doing
18:18	atyz	puredanger: thats exactly what i'm doing
18:18	atyz	I appreciate it :)
18:18	atyz	I need to get more familiar with teh clj std library
18:20	tupi	it's getting a little further but complains about graphicsenvironment. puredanger for you to understand, that directory contains clojure.jar which is clojure 1.3 and i wanted to use the latest debian stable and also getting a better control over comand line args.
18:20	tupi	here is the output of 'imagej':
18:20	tupi	david@capac:~/lpdi/projects/fiji/plugins 15 $ imagej test_2.clj
18:20	tupi	WARNING: clojure.lang.Repl is deprecated.
18:20	tupi	Instead, use clojure.main like this:
18:20	tupi	java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main -i init.clj -r args...
18:20	tupi	Clojure 1.3.0
18:20	tupi	nil
18:20	tupi	user=>
18:21	tupi	[the nil is (println command-line-args)]
18:21	tupi	but i wanted to run clojure1.4 and tell it where imagej classes where, it seems more complicated then i thought
18:22	CapnKernul	What ever happened to lazytest?
18:22	tupi	using clojure1.4,as copied earlier, it complains:
18:22	tupi	java -cp clojure-1.4.0.jar:/usr/local/src/Fiji.app/jars/* clojure.main /usr/lpdi/projects/fiji/plugins/test_2.clj
18:25	tupi	nil
18:25	tupi	Exception in thread "main" java.awt.HeadlessException
18:25	tupi	at java.awt.GraphicsEnvironment.checkHeadless(GraphicsEnvironment.java:207)
18:25	tupi	at java.awt.MenuComponent.<init>(MenuComponent.java:159)
18:25	tupi	... ...
18:25	tupi	so i guess imagej [which a binary file unfortunately] does more then just launching clojure ...
18:25	puredanger	you're causing AWT (the Java window toolkit) to get instantiated, which is not too surprising
18:25	puredanger	given that it's an image lib
18:26	puredanger	you can use -Djava.awt.headless=true I believe to avoid that
18:26	tupi	well image processing does work in the memory [and in this case does not open any window]
18:27	puredanger	tupi: try that flag in your command line
18:28	puredanger	or put it at the top of your code (above the ij import) - (System/setProperty "java.awt.headless" "true")
18:29	tupi	here is the full script, it is really short so i'll copy it here
18:29	tupi	(import '(ij IJ)
18:29	tupi	'(ij ImagePlus))
18:29	tupi
18:29	tupi	(let [imp (IJ/openImage "/usr/lpdi/projects/fiji/tests/image_to_watershed.png")]
18:29	tupi	(IJ/run imp "8-bit" "")
18:29	tupi	(IJ/run imp "Watershed", "")
18:29	tupi	(IJ/save imp "/tmp/itw.png"))
18:29	tupi
18:29	tupi	and all i want is to get it work passing the directoru and image name as a command line arg
18:31	tupi	puredanger: -Djava.awt.headless=true is before clojure.main ?
18:31	puredanger	tupi: that should work
18:32	tupi	arhgg it did not [yet], here is the cmd and 1st line of error:
18:32	tupi	java -cp clojure-1.4.0.jar:/usr/local/src/Fiji.app/jars/* -Djava.awt.headless=true clojure.main /usr/lpdi/projects/fiji/plugins/test_2.clj
18:32	tupi	Exception in thread "main" java.awt.HeadlessException
18:32	tupi	at java.awt.GraphicsEnvironment.checkHeadless(GraphicsEnvironment.java:207)
18:32	tupi	at java.awt.MenuComponent.<init>(MenuComponent.java:159)
18:32	tupi
18:33	jtoy	if im in the repl, how can i run a function that has sudo permissions?
18:34	jtoy	is this possible? it sounds like more of a unix question?
18:35	tupi	puredanger: tx so much to get me up and running with this by the way
18:35	tupi	i really need to take the control of imagej through clojure and not the other way around ...
18:35	llasram	jtoy: Generally speaking, whole processes run as a particular user. Definitely a Unix (or whatever OS-context) question
18:36	futile	I really like the idea of LightTable suddenly.
18:36	tupi	what is the clojure command to exit the repl?
18:37	puredanger	ctrl-c ? :)
18:37	futile	If this thing has paredit-like keys, I'm quite possibly sold.
18:37	aaelony	ctrl-d
18:37	justin_smith	tupi (System/exit 0)
18:37	tupi	justin_smith: tx
18:37	puredanger	your command-line args will end up in a variable named command-line-args
18:38	puredanger	so you can access them like (first command-line-args) and (second command-line-args)
18:38	puredanger	gotta run, hope that helps a little - I don't think you're far
18:38	puredanger	despite appearances
18:39	tupi	puredanger: tx, it is weird to be so close but ...
18:39	jtoy	thx
18:55	jtoy	if i want to keep a secured persistent connection to another site through clojure, what protocol/technology would you recommend?
18:56	justin_smith	either shell out to ssh (or tunnel across an external ssh processes tunnel) or aleph/https web socket maybe?
18:58	jtoy	cool, ill try that
18:59	jtoy	justin_smith: do you know if aleph can work from clojurescript?
18:59	justin_smith	clojurescript should be able to create a websocket via javascript interop
18:59	jtoy	sweet
19:00	justin_smith	I bet there is an example on the web for using aleph/clojurescript for two way web sockets
19:05	jtoy	would be cool to send raw lisp down the channel to eval on the other side
19:06	justin_smith	I usually have each end creating and reading json, and responding to it
19:07	tupi	it is amazing, like really totally crazy, how difficult it is to launch a memory computation based on imagej from clojure. the headless environment takes pages and pages on the web, to tell you how to write a complete program in java not to get the windowing system invlolved in your terrifically basic pure mem computation
19:13	muhoo	under what conditions would doall fail to do all?
19:14	muhoo	i have a lazyseq, i'm trying to spit it out to a file, i tried wrapping it in doall, and all i get in the file is clojure.lang.LazySeq@eff30ce0
19:14	muhoo	oops, nevermind pr-str :-)
19:15	callen	muhoo: don't feel bad, I was doing some dumb stuff with iterate not too long ago.
19:15	callen	muhoo: stuff that required killing Emacs and restarting the REPL :(
19:16	muhoo	it did not occur to me to feel bad :-P
19:17	muhoo	but thanks anyway. it was my big derp of the day; i always have at least one.
19:19	callen	muhoo: so does anybody use defstruct anymore?
19:23	robink	How do I make EDN dispatch on a Joda Time #<DateTime .*> object that has been serialized?
19:31	robink	I can also change the DateTime object in the collection being output by pr, but I'm not sure how to make it a tagged element (i.e. #chrdc/jdt "2013-05-11T23:04:12.000-07:00").
19:36	rhickey	t
19:37	@rhickey	Is there a straightforward way to get lein to use the clojure.jar of my choice from my local disk (not installing in maven)?
19:39	TimMc	rhickey: For lein's own process, or for the codebase it is launching?
19:39	@rhickey	the codebase
19:40	@rhickey	really, get it in lein classpath
19:40	TimMc	Honestly, if I have source I usually just mvn install with a unique version and use that in the pom/project...
19:41	TimMc	If I'm just hacking around, :resource-paths is a close enough approximation.
19:41	TimMc	technomancy will yell at you, though.
19:42	technoma`	hrm; no, :resource-paths makes sense for this.
19:42	technoma`	typically you'd use checkout-deps, but that only works if you're trying to include a leiningen project
19:42	technoma`	no one's hooked it up to maven yet
19:42	ianeslick	Weird, anyone get errors from nrepl require like "namespace 'dstore.api' not found after loading '/dstore/api'?"
19:43	@rhickey	technoma`: you put the jar name in resource-paths?
19:43	ianeslick	(i.e. load nrepl into fresh lein project, define that namespace at src/dstore/api.clj and then try to require)
19:43	technoma`	rhickey: full path to the jar should do the trick
19:43	technoma`	well, relative path from the project root should work too
19:43	technoma`	oh yeah, and that's a string in a vector
19:44	technoma`	:resource-paths ["/path/to/clojure.jar"]
19:44	@rhickey	technoma`: will that disable any defaults for clojure del?
19:44	@rhickey	dep
19:44	technoma`	rhickey: no, you'd need a top-level exclusion as well to keep clojure from being transitively included
19:44	technoma`	:exclusions [org.clojure/clojure]
19:45	@rhickey	ok, thanks
19:45	technoma`	sure
19:45	robink	Would the latter approach be preferable?
19:45	robink	I just want the date output to be parsable and sane
19:45	technoma`	typically the resources one would shadow the transitive one, but if there's a file in one but not the other shadowing gets weird
19:45	technoma`	better to be explicit about it
19:46	tomjack	robink: it sounds like you're asking about print-method
19:46	robink	(org.joda.time.DateTime. "2013-05-11T23:04:12.000-07:00") returns a <DateTime 2013-05-11T23:04:12.000-07:00>, which is what I'm after.
19:47	tomjack	the problem is that you want DateTime to print as a tagged element?
19:47	jtoy	silly question, why would I get this error when the file exists and I have permission (I am testing as root): IOException error=2, No such file or directory java.lang.UNIXProcess.forkAndExec (UNIXProcess.java:-2)
19:47	futile	Oh no! Missed my one chance to deliver the message to rhickey about that one thing that could.. Save the World ... dun dun DUNNNN!!!
19:48	jtoy	all I am doing is appending data to a file: (writer "/etc/hosts" :append true)...
19:48	robink	tomjack: The problem is I want to serialize a collection that contains a Joda Time <DateTime blah> object in several places. I want to do it sanely, and I want to do it relatively securely. I control both the output (generated right now by pr) and the reader (using clojure.edn), and can change how I store/serialize/read the data I'm trying to save as EDN.
19:49	robink	tomjack: My question is what's a sane and appropriate means to save and read the data, provided I'm still using EDN?
19:49	tomjack	I guess I still don't understand
19:49	tomjack	EDN is a sane way to save and read data
19:49	fgallina	Hi all, I'm having a weird error, any help is appreciated: I defined a protocol in my src/core.clj, when I require it from another file and use defrecord implementing this protocol's methods, calling any of them with a record instance fails with "Unable to resolve symbol: <method> in this context".
19:49	tomjack	I'm guessing you want (defmethod print-method DateTime [out date-time] (binding [out out] (print "#foo ") ...)) or whatever
19:49	robink	tomjack: pr outputs, literally, "<DateTime 2013-05-11T23:04:12.000-07:00>", which the reader (clojure.edn/read) doesn't like.
19:50	tomjack	right, define a print-method for the types of interest
19:50	robink	tomjack: Ah, OK
19:50	tomjack	EDN has nothing about printing, it's up to the host. in clojure it's print-method
19:50	robink	Gotcha
19:53	robink	tomjack: [out date-time] should apparently be [date-time out].
19:53	robink	tomjack: but otherwise, perfect, thanks.
19:57	robink	tomjack: Better to have it tagged anyway, I suppose if any instance type or method could be instantiated or acted upon it would be no more secure than clojure.core/read.
20:03	tomjack	oh, yeah, whoops
20:08	gdev_	Stanley Cup Playoffs as a value
20:16	tomjack	gdev_: yes.
20:42	gdev_	tomjack, really? hrm I wonder if its too late to submit a proposal for a talk
21:15	mefesto	using clojurescript in a new project and wondering how i should initialize event handlers and such for different pages. currently, lein-cljsbuild is outputting a single file (app.js) which all pages load. BUT, each page will call it's own `init()` function. is this a terrible approach? should i be outputting multiple js files instead of one?
21:15	mefesto	https://gist.github.com/anonymous/5801886
21:19	dnolen_	mefesto: there's a thread on the mailing list about this hopefully something comes of it
21:19	dnolen_	mefesto: on the CLJS mailing list
21:19	mefesto	dnolen_: oh i didn't realize cljs stuff is no longer using the clojure mailing list. i'll have to join :)
21:19	supersym	you can do goog.require('foo')?
21:20	dnolen_	mefesto: you can ask your question in either place, but CLJS specific things seem to moving off the main ML
21:21	mefesto	dnolen_: do you know the title of the discussion so i can search for it?
21:22	dnolen_	mefesto: Compiling "Modules" via ClojureScript Compiler
21:22	dnolen_	mefesto: I see some of the discussion has moved to clojure-dev too
21:23	mefesto	dnolen_: thanks!
22:14	rationalrevolt	using ring and ring-jetty adapter, can i configure something like a session-listener? I would like to have a count of active sessions in my web-app
22:15	rationalrevolt	i'm not sure how i would use the :configurator parameter for this situation
22:23	callen	rationalrevolt: there's a number of ways to do this, the best all involve using a third party analytics solution.
22:23	callen	rationalrevolt: not futzing around with Ring.
22:25	rationalrevolt	hmm, i want to show the number of user who are online on the page, when a user visits my app - i was hoping to keep the active session count as an atom/ref and mutating it through something like a sessionlistener
22:25	minikomi	Hi there
22:30	brehaut	rationalrevolt: sessions seem like an awkward way to track that given http is stateless
22:31	brehaut	and teh lifetime of a session doesnt necessarily correspond to the actual lifetime of a visit
22:32	callen	rationalrevolt: don't do that.
22:32	rationalrevolt	my app is a statefull game - and every user's gamestate is stored on the session
22:32	callen	rationalrevolt: you need JS to know who's actually on the site.
22:32	rationalrevolt	thats true
22:32	callen	rationalrevolt: you could do a JS -> heartbeat API -> Redis
22:32	callen	rationalrevolt: but I mean, third party analytics solutions have already done the work and come with APIs.
22:32	callen	so.
22:33	callen	best solution would be to cache the results from the third party API
22:33	callen	because if you try to write a client-side heartbeat module, I guarantee you it is going to break in subtle and impossible to track down ways.
22:33	callen	ways that could lead to Cthulhu siphoning off your sanity with one of his many eldritch tentacles.
22:33	brehaut	callen: distributed computation is hard, news at 11 :P
22:34	callen	brehaut: to be fair, we've had atomic increments and decrements for a long time.
22:34	brehaut	also, he eats with tentacles, his mere presence or dreams do the sanity siphoning ;)
22:35	callen	^^ twoo
22:35	callen	rationalrevolt: do you have any other dreams I can crush?
22:35	callen	rationalrevolt: I've had coffee and am feeling frisky/.
22:36	brehaut	Fhtagn
22:37	callen	brehaut: I'm actually listening to lovecraftian black metal right now.
22:37	rationalrevolt	lol, i know session's wouldn't tell me how many are actually really playing my game
22:37	callen	brehaut: slash blackgaze. It's quite wonderful.
22:37	brehaut	callen: lol
22:37	callen	rationalrevolt: it wouldn't tell you anything at all.
22:37	callen	brehaut: totally incidentally, I was listening to it before this conversation started.
22:38	brehaut	callen: its only appears incidental because your meagre human perspective is so small
22:38	callen	brehaut: I mean, the great old ones have been manipulating my will for many years now.
22:38	brehaut	callen: important question then: tree or star
22:40	callen	brehaut: tree because it flies past the muggles.
22:41	brehaut	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWT07iRvI9M
22:42	callen	brehaut: yeah I've seen that. good video.
22:43	callen	brehaut: it really bothers me when youtube has better content than 97% ofSNL
22:43	brehaut	i have no idea what SNL is
22:43	callen	brehaut: saturday night live?
22:44	brehaut	oh right. ive never seen it.
22:44	callen	brehaut: best way to be. Keep it that way.
22:58	rlazerowitz	Does anybody know of a library that will let me get the distance (radius) between 2 coordinates?
22:59	rlazerowitz	So I can check if one pair of coordinates is .5 miles near another coordinate
22:59	callen	rlazerowitz: isn't that just arithmetic?
22:59	rlazerowitz	callen: Is it?
23:00	rlazerowitz	callen: to actually get a radius?
23:00	callen	rlazerowitz: is this something involved data in a database, or in-memory?
23:00	rlazerowitz	callen: As part of a function
23:00	rlazerowitz	callen: Yea I guess you are right just simple arithmetic
23:01	callen	so I'm not totally crazy.
23:01	rlazerowitz	callen: Yea lol I feel like an idiot. Any good libs though that handle geolocation?
23:01	xeqi	well, coordinate systems that convert to miles usually do some warping
23:02	rlazerowitz	xeqi : go on?
23:08	brehaut	rlazerowitz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map_projection
23:08	rlazerowitz	brehaut: Thanks but this function would not be for more than a few miles
23:09	xeqi	right, thats what I was thinking
23:09	xeqi	though wgs84 and the haversine formula might work fine
23:10	xeqi	assuming a spherical earth was close enough
23:10	brehaut	rlazerowitz: if you picked the wrong projection, a few miles is enough to distort depending the points are located
23:10	rlazerowitz	I see this just needs to give a rough estimate of how close you are to someone else in a city
23:10	rlazerowitz	a few blocks
23:10	gt`	hi
23:11	gt`	need to get some pointers on how to configure slime for clojure on emacs
23:13	brehaut	gt`: do you absolutely need slime?
23:13	brehaut	gt`: because clojure emacs integration is moving to nrepl
23:13	brehaut	gt`: http://technomancy.us/163
23:14	xeqi	rlazerowitz: as for libs, geotools was the standard java one several years back. Totally over kill for this usage.
23:14	xeqi	I see there is http://code.google.com/p/simplelatlng/ from a SO question, but can't vouch for it
23:14	gt`	brehaut: that is wot ppl are using right ?
23:14	brehaut	its likely that something from openstreetmaps might suffice, but then you have an osm dependancy
23:15	brehaut	gt`: nrepl is yes
23:15	gt`	okay how to i get nrepl
23:15	malyn	rlazerowitz: I use https://www.refheap.com/15862
23:15	brehaut	gt`: https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el the readme explains
23:16	brehaut	gt`: depending on your choice of emacs package installation mechanism
23:16	callen	malyn: I do all of my geolocation stuff with an abacus and a compass.
23:16	gt`	brehaut: thanks will check it out
23:23	rlazerowitz	marlyn: thanks but that won't account for warping right?
23:23	malyn	callen: Sounds too complex. My preferred approach to geolocation is to start a random walk and just wait.
23:24	malyn	rlazerowitz: You mean because the earth is an ellipsoid and not a sphere?
23:24	rlazerowitz	malyn: yes
23:24	callen	malyn: you just but I've seen people use random-neighborhood walkers as a solution to a search problem before.
23:25	callen	you jest*
23:25	malyn	rlazerowitz: I thought you only needed accuracy to within a few blocks?
23:25	rlazerowitz	malyn: yup
23:26	malyn	rlazerowitz: So wouldn't a spherical earth work in that situation then?
23:26	rlazerowitz	malyn: I suppose thanks!
23:27	malyn	rlazerowitz: You bet. Let me know if you need a 16-bit integer version written in Forth. ;)
23:27	malyn	(which is what I last used that for)
23:27	rlazerowitz	malyn: forth?
23:27	rlazerowitz	lol
23:28	malyn	Turns out it's somewhat complex to do geo calculations without floating point. You have to invent weird new units.
23:28	callen	rlazerowitz: He actually means the programming language Fors, but he has a Lisp.
23:28	rlazerowitz	callen: I got that thought it was funny
23:28	callen	someday I'll invent a joke so punningly awful it's lethal. Then the world is mine.
23:29	malyn	Of course on IRC you won't know if we're dead or it's a netsplit.
23:29	callen	malyn: especially on freenode.
23:30	malyn	callen: Exactly. Everyone else may be dead already.
23:31	Raynes	callen: I'm buying a car. :D
23:31	callen	Raynes: I'm considering flouting the official requirements of this programming problem that was sent to me and doing it in zippers. Good idea? Y/N
23:31	callen	Raynes: oooh, congrats on the car!
23:31	Raynes	Coworker is selling me his car because he is buying a new one. Ridiculously cheap. No way I could turn it down.
23:31	Raynes	Bad part is that now I have to deal with the DMV to get my CA license.
23:31	Raynes	v_v
23:32	callen	Raynes: CA DMV is the innermost circle of Hell.
23:32	callen	Raynes: I have made vehicle purchasing decisions based purely on avoiding them in the past.
23:32	Raynes	Hahaha
23:32	callen	I'm srs :(
23:32	Raynes	Alex has been working with me to get me used to driving again before I do any examinations.
23:32	Raynes	I'm going to drive us to work tomorrow, for example.
23:33	Raynes	He has been very helpful. Selling me the car super cheap and assisting me with getting the license.
23:33	callen	Raynes: good idea. Try not to die.
23:33	Raynes	Well, I drove for the first time in LA, for the first time at all in 7 months, for the first time in his particular car last Saturday.
23:33	tim	\nick tbaldridge
23:33	Raynes	He had me drive to Century City and then to Santa Monica.
23:34	Raynes	It's ridiculous that I have to practice for this crap when I've already been licensed before, but since my AL license expired the day I came here, it's possible they make me take a behind the wheel test.
23:34	Raynes	Protip: don't not drive for almost a year.
23:34	callen	Yerp
23:35	Raynes	callen: I also got tickets to OneRepublic in September at the Greek.
23:35	Raynes	:D
23:36	Raynes	PLEASE LOS ANGELES, TAKE ALL MY MONEY.
23:43	robink	Is it possible to have a macro defined in a binding other than a global one?
23:44	robink	For instance, I have a source file ${projectdir}/src/core.clj that has an individual (defmacro blah ...) line, and the macro is used by a function defined after it. However, the macro ends up getting called from another namespace (user). Is there a way to prevent this?
23:45	robink	i.e. I only want the macro to apply for a single function in the source file. I'm OK with it being used in an entire namespace, but I would like it not to apply to other namespaces.
23:45	echo-area	Probably by defining it as a private one?
23:45	robink	echo-area: Ah, how do you define a macro as private?
23:46	echo-area	robink: Adding {:private true} to its meta
23:46	robink	echo-area: Aha
23:48	amalloy	robink: see also clojure.tools.macro/macrolet
23:49	amalloy	(macrolet [(m [body] (whatever))] (defn foo [x] (m x)))
23:49	robink	amalloy: Thanks
23:56	robink	amalloy: Does macrolet support defining a macro that's used by defmulti?
23:57	robink	amalloy: I've got a macro that's (defmethod name type [binding] (expanded form))
23:57	amalloy	huh? it just defines a macro that exists only within the defined lexical scope
23:57	robink	amalloy: Gotcha.
23:57	robink	amalloy: and defmulti handles the dispatch appropriately, whether the macro is local to a scope or not?
23:58	amalloy	robink: try it and see
23:58	robink	amalloy: OK