2013-05-28
| 01:18 | expt | i have a set of lines, read from a file, where some lines are parents (with an id) and other lines are children (with no ids) |
| 01:18 | callen | amalloy: ping |
| 01:18 | expt | how would i, on a line-by-line basis update the children to have the id of the parent. |
| 01:19 | expt | imperatively, this would be pretty easy, but I am looking for an idiomatic way in clojure to handle this |
| 01:19 | callen | amalloy: if I've got a thread-scoped global var wrapped in an atom getting reset by a ring middleware, would that stop functioning properly outside of a thread per request model? (Netty/Aleph vs. Jetty) |
| 01:19 | callen | expt: assoc the id to be whatever the id of the parent is? |
| 01:20 | callen | expt: oh wait, this is a file? |
| 01:20 | expt | yes |
| 01:20 | expt | @callen |
| 01:20 | callen | expt: can you describe the format at all? are we talking tab delimited? |
| 01:20 | callen | expt: how do you know what a child's parent is? |
| 01:20 | callen | are they consecutive? |
| 01:21 | expt | callen: it is a mvel file, for a drools engine, that I am parsing. the first description line has the rule and an id associated with it |
| 01:21 | amalloy | callen: i don't understand the structure, but "thread-scoped...outside thread per request" sounds bad |
| 01:21 | brehaut | ,(let [ps (partition-by :id [{:id 1 :t "a"} {:t "b"} {:t "c"} {:id 2 :t "d"} {:id 3 :t "e"}])] (map (fn [parent, children] [parent, children]) ps (rest ps))) |
| 01:21 | clojurebot | ([({:t "a", :id 1}) ({:t "b"} {:t "c"})] [({:t "b"} {:t "c"}) ({:t "d", :id 2})] [({:t "d", :id 2}) ({:t "e", :id 3})]) |
| 01:21 | brehaut | + errors when the first record does not include an id, and no actual stitching included |
| 01:21 | expt | and the following lines, belong to the body. |
| 01:22 | callen | amalloy: it works fine, I'll keep running naked. |
| 01:24 | hiredman | if only there was a sweet reducers partition-by for doing reducers based io with... |
| 01:26 | expt | callen: it is essentially like a function block in java, but instead of a function declaration and name, it has a 'rule' statement and an id. the rest of the lines are essentially a scope, opened and closed by braces. since the first line is the rule, I can easly get the id, and pass that value to the subsequent lines. |
| 01:27 | expt | callen: hopefully without some type of outside variable i would need to reset on every group, though it would be a solution. |
| 01:28 | expt | callen: i have structured each line as a map, with a ordinal, key, id, and string. |
| 01:28 | callen | expt: is this some adhoc file format? :\ My approach, based on a limited understanding of the specifics, would be to parse each row into a map representation with a references between the children and parents. |
| 01:28 | callen | okay, yes, uhm. That. |
| 01:28 | callen | now assoc the ids from the parents into the children. |
| 01:28 | callen | direct object references would be more efficient than keys that you have to scan for. |
| 01:29 | expt | callen: so you are advocating a tree stucture then for each rule? am i understanding that correctly? or at the very least, a list associated to the parent? |
| 01:30 | callen | expt: closer to the latter, don't take anything I say too seriously, I'm working off a limited understanding of the format. |
| 01:30 | callen | but yeah, the closer your work is to just assoc/dissoc'ing maps the happier you'll be. |
| 01:31 | expt | callen: okay, thanks for the tip on that |
| 01:31 | callen | expt: I've only used mvel with a search engine, I've avoided drools at all costs. |
| 01:31 | expt | callen: alright, i will take look at it from that perspective. |
| 01:32 | expt | callen: @drools... yeah, well, that is why this project came about, as the client wanted to get rid of the engine, but have several thousand rules they need parsed. |
| 01:32 | callen | expt: solid. Good luck. |
| 01:33 | expt | callen: at any rate, thanks for the alternate perspective |
| 01:33 | callen | expt: if I had coffee available to me and a refheap of the format I could be more useful. |
| 01:33 | callen | You can help with the latter, the former is up to me. |
| 01:33 | callen | but the coffee is seriously critical. |
| 01:33 | expt | callen: haha, if you were around, i would buy you the coffee ;) |
| 01:35 | expt | callen: thanks, I will see what I can work up that is not confidential, and ping you back perhaps if your previous idea stymies me, but I do appreciate the perspective, it already seems to be a better take than a flat line, re-association approach. |
| 01:35 | expt | callen: thanks |
| 01:36 | frankenBits | Hi Clojurians |
| 01:36 | frankenBits | Any clojurescript guru in the room? |
| 01:38 | brehaut | ~anyone |
| 01:38 | expt | frankenBits: yes, there are. i don't claim it (guru status), but if you ask the question, someone will respond, generally |
| 01:38 | clojurebot | Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..." |
| 01:38 | callen | expt: cheers. |
| 01:38 | expt | callen: right back at you. thanks. |
| 01:38 | frankenBits | thanks expt, i think the question i have is pretty basic.. |
| 01:39 | frankenBits | running clojurescript for the first time off my machine |
| 01:39 | frankenBits | (dotimes [x 10] |
| 01:39 | frankenBits | (.write js/document (str |
| 01:39 | callen | frankenBits: IRC is a little more asynchronous. and a bit like fishing. |
| 01:39 | frankenBits | "<p>Hello, world! For the " |
| 01:39 | frankenBits | (+ x 1) |
| 01:39 | frankenBits | " time!</p>"))) |
| 01:39 | callen | frankenBits: use refheap to post code please, don't paste into the channel. |
| 01:39 | callen | frankenBits: and when asking question, just you know, toss stuff out there and see who bites. |
| 01:39 | callen | questions*. Don't need to ask to ask, ya know? |
| 01:39 | frankenBits | gotcha |
| 01:39 | callen | either somebody is around or they ain't. :) |
| 01:40 | frankenBits | haha rite :) newbie to irc as well |
| 01:40 | frankenBits | one sec let me get this posted so it makes more sense |
| 01:40 | expt | well, frankenBits, welcome to clojure, AND irc |
| 01:41 | frankenBits | thanks Clojure opening new doors ;) |
| 01:42 | callen | frankenBits: https://www.refheap.com/ |
| 01:46 | frankenBits | Here is the writeup |
| 01:46 | frankenBits | https://www.refheap.com/15084 |
| 01:47 | frankenBits | almost seems like a bug in clojurescript |
| 01:48 | brehaut | ,((fn [& r] (prn r)) 1 "two" :three) |
| 01:48 | clojurebot | (1 "two" :three)\n |
| 01:49 | brehaut | you are collecting the variadic arguments as a seq, and then passing that seq to the .write method. |
| 01:50 | brehaut | if .write were a funciton i would say you should be applying it, but i dont know how that translates to clojurescript method stuff |
| 01:50 | brehaut | and javascripts Function.prototype.apply shenanigans |
| 01:52 | frankenBits | hmm…i see what you are saying |
| 01:52 | frankenBits | so if i do something like (str input) |
| 01:52 | frankenBits | would that do the trick? |
| 01:52 | brehaut | yeah it will |
| 01:54 | brehaut | so, (.apply (.-log js/console) js/console (array 1 2 3)) |
| 01:55 | brehaut | that is an ugly way to get a method and apply it |
| 01:55 | brehaut | i presume there is a smarter way somewhere in the lib |
| 01:55 | brehaut | (it needs an array, not a collection too) |
| 01:56 | frankenBits | even wrapping it in (str ) doesn't work |
| 01:56 | brehaut | ,(str "a" 1 "two") |
| 01:56 | clojurebot | "a1two" |
| 01:56 | brehaut | oh, you want (apply str input) |
| 01:56 | brehaut | again, because you want to pass the sequence as variadic arguments, not as a collection |
| 01:57 | frankenBits | ahh! |
| 01:57 | brehaut | btw, writeBody, and camelCase in general is poor style in a lisp. it should be write-body |
| 01:57 | frankenBits | Thanks for the tip |
| 01:58 | frankenBits | newish to lisp..did my own emacs lisp hacking but never followed conventions per say..good to know |
| 01:59 | callen | frankenBits: per se |
| 01:59 | callen | frankenBits: latin for, "in itself" |
| 01:59 | brehaut | http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt is a good style guide |
| 01:59 | callen | or "through itself" |
| 02:00 | callen | frankenBits: it's a way of isolating a subject or disconnecting it with the typically attendant qualifiers. |
| 02:00 | callen | "I was a banker per se, but not a wall street fat cat." |
| 02:00 | frankenBits | brehaut u rock! it worked |
| 02:01 | frankenBits | called, thnx, it's late here in the states..late night grammar isn't great |
| 02:01 | frankenBits | callen* |
| 02:01 | frankenBits | my late night grammar isn't great* |
| 02:03 | callen | frankenBits: it's late here too (LA) |
| 02:03 | callen | dsantiago: I'm in LA now btw. |
| 02:03 | callen | amalloy: I draw near! Bwahahahaha |
| 02:04 | frankenBits | How are you awake…I'm in Chicago and its 1am here |
| 02:04 | amalloy | i know. Raynes was so excited to have you in his apartment i had to avert my eyes |
| 02:05 | stirfoo | I wonder how much scheme r. hickey has written. He adopted ? for predicates instead of -p. |
| 02:05 | callen | This is Raynes on callen's laptop. Weee |
| 02:10 | callen | frankenBits: it's 2302 atm. I'm currently deciding if I want to try to do anything else tonight or not :P |
| 02:10 | callen | frankenBits: I'm usually up late. Like 2 or 3. |
| 02:10 | callen | amalloy: I walked down the pier. Really cool *_* |
| 02:10 | amalloy | 2302?! i overslept by two centuries! |
| 02:11 | amalloy | three, i guess |
| 02:11 | amalloy | whatever, math |
| 02:11 | callen | amalloy: ahoy rip van winkle |
| 02:15 | frankenBits | callen: nice i stay up late sometimes..can't do it as often anymore not thattt young anymore haha |
| 02:15 | frankenBits | sirfoo can you elaborate? on -p? |
| 02:16 | stirfoo | frankenBits: common lisp's way to denote a predicate |
| 02:18 | frankenBits | stirfoo: interesting i've been reading on lisp by paul graham, common lisp looks interesting..a little cumbersome compared to clojure syntax at least that's |
| 02:18 | frankenBits | how it feels going from Clojure to CL |
| 02:19 | frankenBits | is the predicate system more robust in CL? |
| 02:20 | stirfoo | on lisp is a great book, but a lot of it would be difficult to transpose to clojure becuase of the immutability inherant in the language. (I've tried a few things). You really have to change the way you think with clojure. |
| 02:20 | stirfoo | frankenBits: it's just a '?' suffix vs a '-p' suffix, nothing more |
| 02:23 | frankenBits | i definitely agree, it's a mixed bag because of CL mutability. I read good things about on lisp's approach to teaching macro's |
| 02:23 | frankenBits | haven't gotten to that point yet |
| 02:23 | frankenBits | primarily reading it for that |
| 02:24 | frankenBits | Who says LISP has bad marketing? I bit Paul Graham's marketing pitch on lisp |
| 02:24 | stirfoo | frankenBits: come to think of it, I learned more about cl macros from that book than anywhere else =) |
| 02:26 | frankenBits | :D awesome, that's the killer feature i need to really learn. I've read the Clojure macro tutorials felt a little lacking |
| 02:27 | stirfoo | I have cl the language, 2nd edition around here some where. I wore the pages out on that one but it's been a couple of years since I wrote any cl. clojure is just too much fun. |
| 02:29 | frankenBits | stirfoo: did you have a day job doing CL? |
| 02:29 | stirfoo | frankenBits: no, I'm a stricly-for-fun programmer |
| 02:30 | stirfoo | writing code is like trying to solve a puzzle with a gazillion solutions =) |
| 02:31 | frankenBits | stirfoo: agreed coding is too much fun, i learned so much about a variety of fields just by studying programming out my own interest |
| 02:31 | frankenBits | sometimes it feels like I'm debugging in real life like i would in a program |
| 03:09 | lynaghk | I need a queue (with multiple consumers) containing the topologically ordered vertexes of a (changing) graph |
| 03:09 | lynaghk | any suggestions on how to implement? I have the topological sorting already worked out, but I'm not sure the best way to setup a queue |
| 03:10 | tomjack | you mean it's like a mutable priority queue where priority is determined topologically, and you enqueue a node every time it changes? |
| 03:10 | lynaghk | I considered throwing a java.util.concurrent queue behind an atom, but that just seems gnarly. |
| 03:11 | lynaghk | tomjack: not every time it changes. Say I have two worker threads pulling things off the queue and a third thread that sometimes adds new nodes/edges to the graph (and thus needs to add things and sort the entire queue) |
| 03:12 | tomjack | 'things' == nodes? |
| 03:12 | tomjack | vertexes |
| 03:12 | lynaghk | tomjack: yeah |
| 03:12 | tomjack | how do the edges fit in |
| 03:12 | tomjack | oh |
| 03:13 | lynaghk | to determine the sorting order |
| 03:13 | tomjack | right |
| 03:13 | lynaghk | I did look at the java.util.concurrent priority queue (which accepts a comparator), but I don't think that will work because the docs didn't mention that it would resort entirely on each add to the queue. |
| 03:14 | tomjack | can you add a node already in the graph to the queue? |
| 03:15 | tomjack | or 'each add' is a new node being added to both graph and queue? |
| 03:15 | lynaghk | I can add an existing node to the back of the queue |
| 03:15 | lynaghk | the use case is a build process where during the build a target may specify additional dependencies |
| 03:16 | lynaghk | in which case the current build is killed (since the new deps haven't been built yet), the deps are added to graph, and the work queue needs to atomically become the topological sort of the graph. |
| 03:17 | lynaghk | the new graph, that is. |
| 03:18 | tomjack | do you really need j.u.c or a mutable queue? |
| 03:18 | lynaghk | tomjack: I'm open to other options. I need something that can be consumed by multiple threads |
| 03:20 | tomjack | if the current build is killed, why do you care about an existing queue? |
| 03:20 | tomjack | I mean, you kill the current build but then you want to only redo what didn't already get done last time? |
| 03:21 | tomjack | if you start over from scratch I don't see why you'd need a mutable queue that atomically changes sort order - just restart the whole process from the new graph |
| 03:21 | lynaghk | the queue has, say, [A B C]. In building A we discover that it depends on D E, so we kill the build for A and the queue should now be [B C D E A] |
| 03:23 | tomjack | I see, just kill the target whose deps changed? |
| 03:23 | lynaghk | tomjack: yeah |
| 03:25 | tomjack | interesting problem :) |
| 03:25 | tomjack | a priority-like queue is not quite right, right? |
| 03:26 | tomjack | I mean say [A B C] and B depends on A |
| 03:26 | tomjack | if some worker pops off A and the queue is [B C], B cannot be popped |
| 03:26 | tomjack | until A is done. yes? |
| 03:26 | lynaghk | tomjack: I'm not sure about the formal definition of a priority queue, but the implementation in java.util.concurrent won't work because the comparator can change. |
| 03:27 | tomjack | assume for simplicity the topology is fixed |
| 03:27 | lynaghk | tomjack: yes, but if that were the case then the sort would have been [C A B] |
| 03:28 | yunfan | anyone could give me an example of using sqlkorma doing (-> create-db build-tables insert-records selecting-stuff ... ) |
| 03:28 | tomjack | then C is popped, A, and now the queue is [B], how does a worker know that they need to wait for A to do B? |
| 03:29 | yunfan | am i in the blacklist? |
| 03:29 | tomjack | a queue doesn't care about completion |
| 03:29 | lynaghk | tomjack: good point. I haven't considered that case yet. |
| 03:30 | lynaghk | tomjack: I will need to add per-target locking in any case, so here the worker will look at the graph, see that B depends on A and that someone is already working on A, so he'll go to the next item. |
| 03:31 | tomjack | ouch |
| 03:31 | lynaghk | er, it. I need to stop anthromorphising threads |
| 03:34 | mthvedt | does discovery of dependencies have to be lazy? |
| 03:34 | mthvedt | it looks pretty easy if you get the whole tree at once |
| 03:36 | lynaghk | mthvedt: yep, that's what makes it fun =P |
| 03:36 | lynaghk | a lot of things would be easier if we knew everything at once. |
| 03:38 | mthvedt | lyanghk: how about doing it recursively with workers pausing and adding child tasks, then waiting for them before they continue |
| 03:38 | mthvedt | you could have some mechanism to make sure the # of 'active' workers is constant, and work doesn't overlap |
| 03:39 | lynaghk | mthvedt: that was my first approach, but the number of threads you need to prevent deadlock is unbounded. |
| 03:40 | mthvedt | lyanghk: i'm missing how it can deadlock so long as it's partially ordered |
| 03:42 | lynaghk | mthvedt: it could deadlock if you limit the number of threads. E.g., You have A -> B -> C -> D -> ... |
| 03:42 | lynaghk | where "->" means "depends on". |
| 03:43 | lynaghk | so you will lock if your graph has a depth greater than the number of threads you have |
| 03:44 | mthvedt | lyanghk: well if you have deps A B and C, you can spawn threads for B and C and recurse on A |
| 03:46 | lynaghk | I may just have to finally write myself a dosync. In any event, I should sleep on it first. Thanks tomjack and mthvedt. |
| 03:53 | callen | tomjack: now I want to play beer pong o_O |
| 03:53 | amalloy | lynaghk: is this really going to be handling workflows so deep that you can't afford a thread for each depth? i mean, a more elegant solution would be fun, but for most reasonable inputs it sounds like a thread would work, and that would be easier |
| 03:53 | tomjack | beer pong is bad |
| 03:53 | callen | tomjack: I recall winning the last time I played, and that's all that really matters. |
| 03:54 | callen | I like #winning. #tigerblood #warlock |
| 03:54 | tomjack | alcohol is a terrible sacrament imo |
| 03:54 | callen | tomjack: sacrament? It's beer pong not passover ;) |
| 03:54 | tomjack | I enjoy thinking about most social groups as cults and behaviors as rituals |
| 03:55 | callen | tomjack: fraternities must be horrific for you. |
| 03:56 | tomjack | yes, but also disappointingly boring |
| 03:56 | tomjack | the religion at some college parties is awesome though |
| 03:56 | callen | tomjack: Bacchus? |
| 03:58 | tomjack | I dunno what it is, but it's weird :) |
| 04:02 | mthvedt | is it not written that on the night when he was betrayed, our lord produced ping pong balls and threw them into red solo cups, saying this is the sacrement of beer pong given unto you |
| 04:04 | callen | mthvedt: I have a new idea for startup poker nights now. |
| 04:24 | ddellacosta | how do you reload a namespace from a file (say if you've edited the file) in a cljs repl? I'm using piggieback. |
| 04:27 | ddellacosta | never mind, I guess load-file does it. |
| 04:31 | ddellacosta | hmm, except it seems to add extra instances of the same functions… |
| 04:47 | noncom | what is better for fast mutable state: a map of 5 atoms or an atom of a map with 5 kvs? |
| 04:48 | noncom | in 1st case i do individual derefs and swaps, in the second case i swap the whole map after assoc |
| 04:48 | moonchrome | noncom, I think that has more to do with how you want to access them then performance |
| 04:49 | noncom | moonchrome: putting an interface function on it hides details anyway so i thought maybe there is some existing bias in the community |
| 04:50 | mthvedt | noncom: depends on access patterns, but consider that the cost of concurrency is orders of magnitude higher than chasing a few extra refs |
| 04:50 | noncom | well i guess i'll just have to (time) and measure my usecase |
| 04:51 | noncom | with both types of access |
| 04:51 | moonchrome | noncom, atoms are just CAS operations and pointers - not much overhead there - it really depends on if the data is coupled / needs to be updated simultaniously or is it separate |
| 04:52 | mthvedt | moonchrome: CAS is not fast when contended. it's faster than synchronization, but that's not saying much :P |
| 04:53 | moonchrome | mthvedt, well technically CAS is a atomic operation :P |
| 04:53 | moonchrome | it's just the retries that screw you :P |
| 04:54 | mthvedt | moonchrome: yup, but if you have to ask about concurrent performance, it's probably because the retries are screwing you :P |
| 04:55 | moonchrome | I feel like noncom is doing premature optimization otherwise he would have posted some test case and profiling info for his problem |
| 04:56 | noncom | yeah, i think it is more of premature optimisation actually |
| 04:56 | mthvedt | well, it was an optimization question. the answer is either don't optimize or optimize for the typical case |
| 05:00 | callen | noncom: atom of a single map with 5 kvs. See how it shakes out. |
| 05:17 | noncom | i think that yes, for my case, and considering the required concurrency model, i go with one atom map |
| 05:19 | tomjack | cool, sorta kinda looks like I got alt(s)! in go working https://www.refheap.com/3188f10dde7b99b924c2bd299 |
| 06:00 | augustl | does infoq have a way to list all presentations for a specific conference? Clojure/west presentations seems to have started popping up |
| 06:01 | katratxo | augustl: http://www.infoq.com/clojure-west-2013/ ? |
| 06:01 | augustl | katratxo: woo! How did you find that link? :P |
| 06:02 | augustl | tried clicking on everything that said "Clojure/west" on a presentation I found, no dice.. |
| 06:03 | katratxo | augustl: below the video you have some "tags" |
| 06:03 | augustl | katratxo: ah, thanks |
| 06:04 | katratxo | augustl: np |
| 06:37 | asaleh | I am trying to do rpc in clojure and I am wandering ... I have a function (defn call [url username password command args] ...), but most of the time the url, username and password stay the same ... is there a way how would I elegantly implement this? |
| 06:39 | asaleh | I am thinking about something like (with-rpc url username password (call :command1 []) (call :command2 [])) |
| 06:42 | augustl | asaleh: I'd prefer to create some sort of "context" you could pass in |
| 06:42 | augustl | but as long as with-rpc is a macro that allows you to call "call" by passing in arguments I'd be happy :) |
| 06:43 | ucb | asaleh: I'd use partial |
| 06:43 | augustl | partial would only solve it for one function call though? |
| 06:43 | ucb | asaleh: e.g. (def rpc-call (partial call some-url user passwd)) |
| 06:43 | ucb | augustl: well, then you could just call (rpc-call command args) |
| 06:44 | augustl | ah, good point. |
| 06:44 | ucb | unless I'm missing something |
| 06:44 | augustl | (let [rpc (partial do-rpc "username" "password" "url")] (rpc "foo") (rpc "bar")) |
| 06:44 | ucb | yup |
| 06:45 | asaleh | augustl, ucb well, that looks great, thanks! :) |
| 06:56 | tomjack | cljs port seems to be working :) https://www.refheap.com/2d26edb26ee3b299a92a02a32 |
| 06:58 | tomjack | with poor man's binding conveyance |
| 07:04 | dbushenko | hi all! |
| 07:12 | tomjack | bbloom: dnolen: https://github.com/tomjack/core.async/commits/cljs-port |
| 07:26 | clgv | what is the current library to use for JNA? |
| 07:26 | clgv | or JNI |
| 07:26 | clgv | I mean clojure library |
| 07:30 | augustl | clgv: I suppose interop would work well for this. |
| 07:30 | clgv | augustl: well a minimal language for the native call would be preferable. |
| 07:31 | clgv | I found https://github.com/bagucode/clj-native and https://github.com/Chouser/clojure-jna/network |
| 07:33 | edtsech | hey guys, what is the best solution for partial content support? I've found https://github.com/remvee/ring-partial-content but it's pretty old. |
| 07:36 | jtoy | hi |
| 08:00 | jtoy | does anyone see what I'm doing wrong here? I'm trying to get back a list of single items but i get back a list of lists with 1 item each: (map (fn[xs] (last (sort-by #(-> % :at) xs))) (group-by #(-> % :user :id) candidates)) |
| 08:11 | jtoy | I found it |
| 08:12 | jtoy | this is pretty ugly code: (map (fn[xs] (last (last (sort-by #(last (last (-> % :at))) xs)))) (group-by #(-> % :user :id) candidates)) |
| 08:13 | hyPiRion | jtoy: what. Can you give me a small example of what candidates is, and what you want as output? |
| 08:19 | clgv | ok clj-native works. but where do I have to put the library so that it can be loaded? |
| 08:22 | jtoy | hyPiRion: my example is not working, but im trying to do something like this: https://www.refheap.com/15098 |
| 08:25 | hyPiRion | jtoy: could you explain it in English? (i.e. "I want a list of users sorted on the length of the user name, ascending") |
| 08:27 | jtoy | hyPiRion: for each b group, I only want the one with the longest a, so i have a unique list of b's with the one with the longest a |
| 08:27 | jtoy | isee what i did wrong |
| 09:23 | jtoy | is there a method where i can do something and then return itself? |
| 09:24 | ohpauleez | jtoy: You want to do something to a thing, and then return that thing? |
| 09:24 | mefesto | (doto obj (thing)) |
| 09:24 | ohpauleez | or a function that does some work and returns the function itself |
| 09:25 | ohpauleez | the former is `doto` |
| 09:25 | ohpauleez | the latter seems like a destructive function |
| 09:25 | ohpauleez | which may be ok, but yes, you can do that too |
| 09:26 | ohpauleez | (fn f [] (inc 1) f) |
| 09:26 | mefesto | ohpauleez: did you give a talk at the last conj? |
| 09:26 | jtoy | ah doto, cool |
| 09:26 | jtoy | i just want to println it |
| 09:26 | jtoy | hyPiRion: btw, i just got it working correclty i believe: (map (fn[xs] (last (sort-by #(-> % :at) xs))) (map last (group-by #(-> % :user :id) candidates))) |
| 09:26 | ohpauleez | mefesto: I did - on CLJS and general design |
| 09:26 | mefesto | ohpauleez: i recently saw a video of that. really great stuff! |
| 09:27 | ohpauleez | jtoy: (doto thing (prn)) |
| 09:27 | ohpauleez | mefesto: Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it! |
| 09:27 | mefesto | ohpauleez: got another talk coming for the next conj? |
| 09:28 | ohpauleez | I have not submitted anything - I gave a talk at ClojureWest and I've been continuing that work a bit |
| 09:28 | ohpauleez | I've also been working on a lot of "enterprise Clojure" and would love to share about those experiences - the general stack |
| 09:29 | ohpauleez | But I might take a break (I'll be moving across the country right around the same time) |
| 09:29 | jcrossley3 | ohpauleez: i'd like to hear that talk :) |
| 09:29 | mefesto | where abouts you moving? |
| 09:29 | ohpauleez | jcrossley3: I'm sure you would :) |
| 09:29 | mefesto | west -> east coast? |
| 09:30 | ohpauleez | From Portland, OR back to Boston area |
| 09:30 | ohpauleez | yeah |
| 09:30 | ohpauleez | I've switched coasts every year for the past three |
| 09:30 | ohpauleez | so I'm settling in back east |
| 09:30 | mefesto | wow |
| 09:31 | mefesto | yeah that sounds like a crazy pace of moving. |
| 09:31 | mefesto | anyhow, just wanted to give you some props on that talk. :) |
| 09:33 | mefesto | for anyone interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zdzivUmL4s |
| 10:25 | TimMc | ohpauleez: Ah, where in teh Boston area? |
| 10:25 | ohpauleez | TimMc: Hey man! Unsure yet |
| 10:30 | danlarkin | ohpauleez: you bastard |
| 10:31 | ohpauleez | danlarkin: haha - not until October |
| 10:31 | ohpauleez | I'm a heartbreaker |
| 10:31 | danlarkin | you tease me and then you leave me |
| 10:37 | bbloom | ohpauleez: make up your mind dammit |
| 10:38 | ohpauleez | bbloom: I loathe moving more than anything |
| 10:38 | ohpauleez | but I end up doing it all the time |
| 10:38 | bbloom | ohpauleez: as somebody else who did the bicoastal 6 month flip flop for 4 years a while back… yes fuck moving |
| 10:38 | ohpauleez | I think this time, for real, I'll stay put for a bit |
| 10:39 | bbloom | in boston? booooo ;-) |
| 10:48 | rbxbx | ohpauleez: pre-emptive welcome back east :D |
| 10:48 | rbxbx | ohpauleez: couldn't hack the portland winter either? :p |
| 10:49 | llasram | I do wish we'd go ahead and finish linking BAMA all together |
| 10:50 | llasram | Would make the East more attractive/terrifying |
| 10:52 | gfredericks | $google BAMA |
| 10:52 | lazybot | [Bama Boatanchor Manuals Archive] http://bama.edebris.com/ |
| 10:53 | llasram | gfredericks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sprawl |
| 10:55 | jcrossley3 | gfredericks: thanks to you, TIL what "heuristic outcomes" are :) |
| 10:55 | gfredericks | jcrossley3: it feels like a euphemism |
| 10:55 | gfredericks | don't worry boss, it was just a heuristic outcome. we'll have it cleaned up momentarily. |
| 10:55 | jcrossley3 | :) |
| 10:59 | ohpauleez | rbxbx: I think Portland is a gorgeous city - I really enjoy it here. I'm definitely an east coast kid at heart, as is the Mrs. New England is better for both of us professionally as well |
| 10:59 | gfredericks | jcrossley3: I read the 3PC article for a while but there still seemed to be obvious failure scenarios they weren't accounting for |
| 10:59 | gfredericks | maybe it's just wikipedia not being an ideal tutorial |
| 10:59 | ohpauleez | rbxbx: but yes the "winter" here is the serious price you pay for the summer |
| 11:00 | gfredericks | what are portland winters like? |
| 11:00 | bbloom | extrapolating from seattle: gray. |
| 11:01 | ohpauleez | It rains almost non-stop, usually not hard, but at least always a constant mist |
| 11:01 | jcrossley3 | gfredericks: very possible. fwiw, mark is darn responsive for a CTO of a billion dollar company (he's an academic at heart), so feel free to ping him for links/references. |
| 11:01 | ohpauleez | it rarely drops below 33F degrees, but because it's so damp, it hurts your bones |
| 11:01 | gfredericks | yeah that doesn't sound like it deserves the term "winter"; maybe "seattle" would be a good name :) |
| 11:02 | gfredericks | jcrossley3: will do -- thanks |
| 11:02 | ohpauleez | but there is no place in the US with a more beautiful summer than PNW |
| 11:03 | bbloom | ohpauleez: oh yeah. but don't tell anyone that. you're going to drive up the price of my future summer home |
| 11:03 | hyPiRion | Oh, you want to discuss summers? |
| 11:03 | ohpauleez | bbloom: HA! |
| 11:03 | hyPiRion | The Norwegian summer was beautiful this year. |
| 11:04 | hyPiRion | emphasis on "was" =/ |
| 11:04 | rbxbx | ohpauleez: I agree pretty much 100%. |
| 11:04 | rbxbx | ohpauleez: I found myself a bit too caustic for the west coast :p |
| 11:04 | gfredericks | hyPiRion: summer ends in late may? |
| 11:06 | gfredericks | obligatory oatmeal reference? http://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences5/suit |
| 11:07 | arkx | Anyone else seen issues with :output-wrapper true & :optimizations :whitespace? |
| 11:07 | hyPiRion | gfredericks: we had like 3 days with 80 F up here, then a flood and tons of water came and destroyed it all |
| 11:07 | hyPiRion | now it's like 45 F |
| 11:08 | gfredericks | it was 45 here a few days ago and now 80 |
| 11:08 | nDuff | gfredericks: ...that's one of the points on which I'm a bit disconcerted about moving to the East Coast. If wearing a kilt to work doesn't fit in so well... meh. |
| 11:08 | ucb | nDuff: proper tartan and all? |
| 11:09 | rbxbx | gfredericks: nice. |
| 11:09 | nDuff | ucb: Family tartan's pretty ugly, so I usually go the Utilikilt route. |
| 11:09 | ucb | heh |
| 11:09 | llasram | Two of the guys at my company briefly tried to get "pantsless friday" going, but AFAIK only they ever showed up be-kilted |
| 11:09 | hyPiRion | I think I would fit perfectly into the American workplace. I have the right circadian rythm for american timezones at least. |
| 11:10 | rbxbx | hyPiRion: your body will readjust to fucked up times again. |
| 11:10 | gfredericks | "nDuff McArtur" |
| 11:10 | rbxbx | or so that has been my experience |
| 11:10 | hyPiRion | rbxbx: yeah, I'd guess so |
| 11:11 | Okasu | https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/f93397ba62d722abb4319f4adcea46d1/tumblr_mmkwc5QYE31qzsjkco1_500.png Regardless strange weather and all that kind of stuff. We're pretty much doomed. |
| 11:15 | TimMc | Okasu: It's pretty clear that saying "we must not go above X ppm" is not an effective approach; we've crossed a few such thresholds already. |
| 11:18 | hyPiRion | Okasu: http://i.imgur.com/HN1fMxT.jpg |
| 11:19 | samrat | is there any way I can setup nrepl to (use 'clojure,repl) when I do (in-ns ..)? |
| 11:19 | samrat | automatically, I mean |
| 11:20 | gfredericks | samrat: I'm 99% sure there is, and I have no idea what it is. |
| 11:21 | gfredericks | middleware at worst? |
| 11:22 | gfredericks | am I wrong for wanting to replace compojure with something more data-oriented? |
| 11:23 | weavejester | gfredericks: Nope. Compojure has it's strengths, but transparency isn't one of them. |
| 11:24 | gfredericks | weavejester: has this been tried before? |
| 11:24 | weavejester | gfredericks: Pedestal has data-driven routing, but it's locked up with a bunch of other things. |
| 11:25 | gfredericks | hrm |
| 11:27 | gfredericks | what if routing was separated into two phases -- identification and handling -- such that you could add your "routing middleware" early in the pipeline and it would just add some data to the req about which route matched and the params inside it; then you could even have your underlying handler be a multimethod that dispatches on the data in the req |
| 11:28 | gfredericks | I've been wanting to add data to my logging about which route is being handled, but none of my middlewares have access to that information :/ |
| 11:28 | ucb | gfredericks: I like that idea |
| 11:29 | ucb | (fwiw) |
| 11:30 | gfredericks | would also let you do things like associate arbitrary metadata with individual routes that later middlewares could look for |
| 11:31 | gfredericks | e.g., "these routes require a JSON content type", then a later middleware that returns a 400 when appropriate |
| 11:31 | ucb | gfredericks: what if 1+ routes could handle the request? Or at least initially matched the URL? would you have each handler either produce a response or remove the tag? |
| 11:31 | ucb | (perhaps I'm missing the point completely here) |
| 11:32 | gfredericks | the matching could still be ordered like it is in compojure |
| 11:32 | gfredericks | so I'm not sure where that ambiguity would come from |
| 11:33 | ucb | gfredericks: /user/:id and you have both XML and JSON endpoints? |
| 11:35 | gfredericks | such that request look like /user/123.xml and /user/123.json, or distinguished by the headers? |
| 11:37 | ucb | gfredericks: yeah, I was sort of hinting at matching on headers as well. Your handler, based on URL only (assuming no .xml or .json ending) would then be ambiguous otherwise. |
| 11:38 | gfredericks | hmmm...now I'm wondering if the "matching" middleware could be totally generic, and just add path data to the req, and all the work could be done in a multimethod |
| 11:39 | gfredericks | probably would want more semantics than that |
| 11:40 | gfredericks | ucb: but in any case if it's a multimethod it can be based on anything in the req at all |
| 11:40 | gfredericks | or the traditional predicate dispatch-like approach if multimethods are too rigid |
| 11:41 | ucb | gfredericks: yes. I like the general idea. I was just seeing if I could poke you to tease out more details and then go write it myself ;) |
| 11:41 | gfredericks | oh you can definitely write it yourself I don't have time for this nonsense |
| 11:41 | ucb | heh |
| 11:41 | ucb | me neither sadly |
| 11:41 | ucb | well, actually, you never know |
| 11:44 | alandipert | dnolen: does advanced mode rely on :static-fns true? |
| 11:45 | gfredericks | ucb: I'm imagining a first pass could be something similar to defroutes that instead returns two functions -- the middleware and the base handler |
| 11:46 | ucb | gfredericks: I may have some free time on Thu/Fri |
| 11:46 | dnolen | alandipert: it does |
| 11:46 | dnolen | alandipert: it defaults to true in advanced mode |
| 11:48 | alandipert | dnolen: ok cool |
| 11:48 | alandipert | dnolen: we have found a bug with static-fns that causes gclosure to compile indefinitely, will collect more info and report back |
| 11:49 | alandipert | dnolen: s/bug with/bug related to |
| 11:50 | dnolen | alandipert: strange, look forward to details |
| 11:50 | ucb | gfredericks: hum, if there was something like defroutes that returned the handler and the middleware (perfectly reasonable for a first pass) then it'd have to take the bodies of all handlers. Correct? |
| 11:51 | dnolen | xkcd HN problem in core.logic http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5780663 |
| 11:51 | gfredericks | ucb: yeah, like it curretnly does |
| 11:51 | ucb | gfredericks: sure, I was pondering on the size of that beast once it gets fairly complex. I suppose you could have as body a function and nothing else. |
| 11:52 | ucb | gfredericks: body for the route handler that is |
| 11:53 | gfredericks | size shouldn't be any worse than current defroutes, right? |
| 11:53 | ucb | sure, as I said, I was just pondering whether this approach would allow for extra niceties |
| 11:57 | gfredericks | hmmmmm |
| 11:57 | gfredericks | maybe better to start with designing a data-description of a route? |
| 11:58 | gfredericks | which is probably tricky but worth doing if it can be done |
| 11:58 | ucb | *nod* |
| 11:59 | gfredericks | should be easy for the most common kinds of routes. Once you allow regexes though... |
| 12:02 | ucb | hum, can you do without regexes? |
| 12:02 | gfredericks | I've never used them :) |
| 12:02 | gfredericks | I don't do much webby stuff though; usually just rest/json stuff |
| 12:02 | ucb | exactly |
| 12:02 | ucb | well, me too, so that's why I'm wondering when/where you'd use regexes |
| 12:03 | gfredericks | probably as a restriction on any of the path components |
| 12:04 | gfredericks | regexes can be data. either as a raw string or a proper regex. not sure which is better. |
| 12:05 | ucb | hum |
| 12:06 | gfredericks | ,(str #"\d{4}") |
| 12:06 | clojurebot | "\\d{4}" |
| 12:06 | ucb | perhaps as regexes with #"" since they're compiled already? |
| 12:07 | gfredericks | would be fun to be able to serve this stuff as edn |
| 12:09 | ucb | heh |
| 12:10 | ohpauleez | dnolen: Your core.logic sword is mighty and sharp |
| 12:10 | ohpauleez | that's awesome stuff |
| 12:10 | supersym | ohpauleez: agreed! I was playing around with it yesterday as well :) |
| 13:28 | bmentges | I wish it had a clojure/functional programming pill, you take it and learn it all. |
| 13:29 | supersym | using Refs, how would I delete a key? feed it nil or? |
| 13:31 | hyPiRion | ,(let [foo (ref {:key 15})] (prn foo) (dosync (alter foo dissoc :key)) (prn foo)) ;? |
| 13:31 | clojurebot | #<Ref@de9e85: {:key 15}>\n#<Ref@de9e85: {}>\n |
| 13:31 | supersym | dissoc.. thanks :) |
| 13:31 | hyPiRion | :D |
| 13:32 | supersym | thats easy to remember :P |
| 13:41 | klrr | does "ns" define a module? |
| 13:42 | tomjack | "edn"/"readin'" - coincidence? |
| 13:45 | bbloom | klrr: it defines a _N_ame__S_pace, which you might call a module depending on how technical you want to be about what a module is |
| 13:47 | klrr | bbloom: okey, im not wanna be techical since im not really learning clojure :P thanks though! :) |
| 13:56 | supersym | hyPiRion: dissoc-in is removed? |
| 13:57 | TimMc | klrr: I suppose that depends on what "module" means to you. |
| 13:59 | tomjack | (instance? clojure.lang.IMapEntry form) (outer (vec (map inner form))) |
| 13:59 | tomjack | :( |
| 14:01 | supersym | oh nm...found it |
| 14:02 | hyPiRion | supersym: it is? |
| 14:02 | hyPiRion | ,(dissoc-in {:a {:b 1}} [:a :b]) |
| 14:02 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: dissoc-in in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)> |
| 14:02 | sevvie | hi everyone. I've been working through _Clojure Programming_, slowly, and ran into an issue with some code from the book; I can't tell if it's something I messed up or not? |
| 14:02 | sevvie | https://gist.github.com/sevvie/5664676 |
| 14:03 | hyPiRion | well, update-in with dissoc is probably the correct approach then |
| 14:03 | sevvie | It's "Wilson's Maze" from the book, but it doesn't actually draw the maze. It creates the window, draws the border for the maze, but... is otherwise empty. |
| 14:03 | Foxboron | sevvie: you can fix those ends paranthesis D: |
| 14:03 | Foxboron | end* |
| 14:04 | sevvie | Foxboron, I know I know XD It just helps me see things. I'll take the training wheels off for myself eventually. |
| 14:11 | tieTYT2 | what I find weird about clojure is that if I def something, it can be accessed from anywhere (unless it's private). If that def is a java object with setters, is this similar to a global object? |
| 14:12 | sevvie | Foxboron, I updated the gist with tucked-in parens. |
| 14:13 | bbloom | tieTYT2: that's not similar. that IS a global object :-P |
| 14:13 | tieTYT2 | bbloom: ok, and IME that's bad |
| 14:14 | tieTYT2 | now if I def an atom instead, why isn't that bad? |
| 14:14 | bbloom | tieTYT2: that's bad too. it's just convenient as hell during development |
| 14:14 | bbloom | in general: avoid doing that |
| 14:14 | tieTYT2 | how do you avoid it? Pass it around? |
| 14:14 | nDuff | ...well, not _strictly_ avoid. If you're creating dynamic vars, for instance, their non-root contents are thread-locally scoped. |
| 14:14 | bbloom | write pure functions & move the mutable state outside |
| 14:14 | supersym | hyPiRion: I need to learn myself to watch the namespace, assoc-in, dissoc etc are in other libraries |
| 14:15 | tieTYT2 | in my limited experience, it seems so much easier in haskell to do that |
| 14:15 | supersym | dissoc-in is in contrib... also is it me or do nested hash-maps bring pain |
| 14:15 | hyPiRion | what |
| 14:15 | tieTYT2 | because you have to. In clojure it's not obvious to me how to accomplish that |
| 14:15 | supersym | I never seem to get them right |
| 14:16 | hyPiRion | ,(assoc-in {:a {}} [:a :b] :c) |
| 14:16 | clojurebot | {:a {:b :c}} |
| 14:16 | hyPiRion | oh right, dissoc-in is not evident/simple, so it was left out |
| 14:16 | tieTYT2 | now if your def is just a value (vs a variable) is there anything wrong with that? |
| 14:16 | supersym | ah ok |
| 14:18 | tieTYT2 | To me that feels like a public static final variable in java |
| 14:19 | tieTYT2 | and those don't usually get me in trouble, but it's not idiomatic to use them as much as I do in clojure, so maybe I just don't have the experience to see the problem with that |
| 14:19 | bbloom | tieTYT2: swap! basically lets you just transform a pure function into a state changing one, so just write pure functions & then throw a few bang! functions around the top level & you're good |
| 14:19 | bbloom | having immutable global is no big deal really |
| 14:19 | bbloom | constants are good for you :-) |
| 14:22 | tieTYT2 | ok then, what about def that's dynamic so that one top level function sets a binding? |
| 14:23 | tieTYT2 | for testing purposes, that seems perfectly fine. You can define the binding at whatever scope you want |
| 14:23 | bbloom | tieTYT2: stuartsierra has a great talk on this stuff from clojure/west, i dunno if/when it will be available |
| 14:24 | bbloom | tieTYT2: the downside of the dynamic var is that you can only have one of them at a time. you're better off having a map as the first argument to your fns with everything the fn might need |
| 14:24 | bbloom | i use `-> to thread whole systems though pure functions with update-in, assoc-in, etc doing all the real work |
| 14:26 | hyPiRion | bbloom: https://mobile.twitter.com/ClojureWest/status/339380818684289026 <- so there will be a release schedule upcoming as far as I understand |
| 14:29 | sevvie | I figured out my mistake. My mistake was pure idiocy. |
| 14:30 | noprompt | bbloom: i've been finding a lot of joy in doing the same thing recently |
| 14:37 | zerokarmaleft | tieTYT2: I think bbloom is referring to http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Thinking-in-Data around the 28:30 mark |
| 14:37 | bbloom | zerokarmaleft: also a good talk, but not the 1 i was talking about |
| 14:38 | tbaldridge | zerokarmaleft: yeah, the Clojure/West talk centered more about avoid the use of dynamic vars, and how to deal with global state correctly. It was a good talk. |
| 14:39 | zerokarmaleft | ah, looking forward to the clojure/west vids getting released then :D |
| 14:39 | tieTYT2 | bbloom: what do you mean I can only have one of them at a time? |
| 14:40 | tbaldridge | tieTYT2: if I have a global var called DB, now my app is locked into only talking to one DB at a time |
| 14:40 | tieTYT2 | zerokarmaleft: thanks man |
| 14:40 | tieTYT2 | yeah but if you have a global var called dbs, now you don't have that restriction |
| 14:41 | tieTYT2 | you can have a dynamic var that IS a map |
| 14:41 | tbaldridge | So how does a function know what DB to use from the global var? |
| 14:41 | tieTYT2 | how does it with your solution? |
| 14:45 | klrr | is a map similar to haskell's list of pairs( "[(a,b)]") datastructure? |
| 14:46 | tieTYT2 | doesn't haskell have a map type? |
| 14:50 | justin_smith | tieTYT2: the difference is the typing I think? I mean what would haskell even do with an object that returned or took arbitrary types at runtime (I am sure there is actually an interesting answer to that question that I am ignorant of) |
| 14:51 | tieTYT2 | the question is very vague. Conceptually it's the same as haskell's map type I'd think |
| 14:52 | tieTYT2 | there's more ways to look at it than "conceptually" though |
| 14:52 | tieTYT2 | but it's not the same as [(a,b)]. I think that type would allow duplicate keys |
| 14:54 | bbloom | tieTYT2: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/6.12.1/html/libraries/containers-0.3.0.0/Data-Map.html |
| 14:54 | justin_smith | looking at the definition of Data.HashMap, it looks like hashmaps in haskell are strongly typed on both key and value (taking arguments that determine the key type and value type). I could be misreading though, and this is all off topic for this channel. |
| 14:55 | justin_smith | s/definition of/docs for/ |
| 14:55 | tieTYT2 | justin_smith: that is correct, but I didn't consider that a conceptual difference |
| 14:58 | bbloom | conceptually, it's probably better to think of a map as a function than as a sequence of pairs |
| 14:59 | TEttinger | amalloy: you maintain a fork of lazybot right? do you know how to get the bot to reconnect later if it gets disconnected? |
| 14:59 | amalloy | TEttinger: i maintain the real lazybot :P |
| 14:59 | TEttinger | oh good |
| 14:59 | amalloy | and no, i don't know; ask Raynes :P |
| 14:59 | amalloy | goodness, what kind of mood am i in? :P twice in a row? |
| 15:00 | TEttinger | heh I thought Raynes wrote it |
| 15:00 | amalloy | he wrote more of it than i did |
| 15:00 | Raynes | TEttinger: Raynes did write it, and amalloy helped later on, so amalloy and Raynes keep it in flatland so both of them can work on it. |
| 15:01 | TEttinger | cool |
| 15:01 | TEttinger | Clojure seems to have a really supportive community |
| 15:01 | Raynes | TEttinger: And unfortunately there isn't a reliable way to get the bot to reconnect. It needs to be implemented at the level of irclj, which is partially through a rewrite (and has been for a long time), but will likely go through another because I'd like to try rewriting it with lamina. |
| 15:02 | TEttinger | could it keep track of pings without pongs? |
| 15:02 | TEttinger | on mine, I tend to get nothing but pings at odd intervals and it doesn't ever get a pong |
| 15:02 | Raynes | There are a couple of ways it could work. |
| 15:03 | TEttinger | then I restart the bot and it's fine for days |
| 15:03 | TEttinger | maybe weeks |
| 15:09 | klrr | '(good night) |
| 15:14 | lynaghk | amalloy: re: your question from 12 hours ago; yes, it's conceivable that the build dependency stack will be so deep that spinning up a thread for each layer will be trouble. |
| 15:15 | lynaghk | amalloy: that was my first approach, though---futures blocking on futures blocking on futures |
| 15:15 | amalloy | okay. just wanted to make sure you weren't skipping the easy solution out of some sense of aesthetics |
| 15:15 | lynaghk | amalloy: I'm not going to lie, it's definitely also aesthetics. This is a personal bikeshed, so I've got the luxury/curse of demanding aesthetic perfection |
| 15:16 | lynaghk | = ) |
| 15:21 | noprompt | +1 aesthetics |
| 15:41 | brainproxy | dnolen: like the recent revs to mori :) how do you feel about exposing some of the ..? functions, i.e. so plain vanilla js functions can say detect whether an argument is a vector or an array |
| 15:42 | brainproxy | e.g. `if (mori.is_vector(x)) { ... } else { /* it's an array */ ... }` |
| 15:44 | brainproxy | iow, to facilitate polymorphism in js functions that may be called with mori values -or- plain js values |
| 15:48 | bobbrahms1 | using clojure-maven-plugin clojure:nrepl, how can I set up the classpath so that I can use the classes in my (huge, java) project? |
| 15:49 | bobbrahms1 | I fire it up and can't import anything |
| 15:50 | bobbrahms1 | I realize this is a total noob question by the way, and I apologize in advance. |
| 15:51 | mefesto | bobbrahms1: is this one large project with both clojure and java sources or is the java project separate? |
| 15:51 | bobbrahms1 | one big project |
| 15:52 | bobbrahms1 | but I dont' seem to be able to import anything: |
| 15:52 | bobbrahms1 | user> (import 'java.net URLClassLoader) |
| 15:52 | bobbrahms1 | ClassNotFoundException java.net java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run (URLClassLoader.java:366) |
| 15:52 | mefesto | oh that's odd |
| 15:52 | mefesto | sorry, i got nothing :) |
| 15:52 | bobbrahms1 | bummer... |
| 15:53 | bobbrahms1 | thanks anyhow… |
| 15:53 | bobbrahms1 | anyone else? |
| 15:53 | dnolen | brainproxy: patch for that welcome |
| 15:53 | brainproxy | dnolen: okay will do |
| 15:53 | dnolen | brainproxy: I think we should provide all the standard collection predicates, is_vector, is_map, is_set etc. |
| 15:54 | brainproxy | dnolen: yeah, I think it will be pretty useful |
| 15:54 | brainproxy | I know I have a use for it |
| 15:54 | mefesto | anyone use enlive that wants reloadable templates? |
| 15:54 | noprompt | bobbrahms1: i think you mean (import 'java.net.URLClassLoader) |
| 15:54 | noprompt | or (import '[java.net URLClassLoader]) |
| 15:54 | brainproxy | dnolen: don't have time right at this moment, but it's going on the todo list, you'll see a pull req soon |
| 15:54 | dnolen | brainproxy: great thanks |
| 15:54 | bobbrahms1 | thanks noprompt! |
| 15:55 | noprompt | np |
| 15:55 | mefesto | ahhh didn't see that in the import form |
| 16:05 | noprompt | if anyone wants to send PRs or help with Garden i'd sure appreciate it. |
| 16:06 | noprompt | i've been very busy lately and contributions/suggestions would be welcome. :) |
| 16:07 | tomjack | even with no binding conveyance and a funky dynamic *done* callback, async clojurescript.test seems much more appealing than e.g. the promise fork of mocha |
| 16:07 | noprompt | Raynes: the fs utilities have been mega helpful the past week. <3 |
| 16:08 | Raynes | noprompt: Happy to hear. Appreciate the <3, but I of course have to give most of the credit to the original author from whom I took over maintainership. And I give credit because there are lots of completely broken shit in fs that I haven't fixed yet that I don't want to be blamed for. :D |
| 16:09 | noprompt | Raynes: ohrly? which parts? |
| 16:09 | noprompt | (to be honest i've probably only used a handful of the fn's) |
| 16:10 | dnolen | tomjack: are you writing an async version of cljs.test ? |
| 16:10 | mefesto | if you ever get tired of coding those skills will translate into politics nicely :) |
| 16:15 | bbloom | dnolen: rhickey said that tim baldridge was gonna do one, but i think tomjack took a stab at it for grins |
| 16:19 | noprompt | lynaghk: do you still work with angularjs and clojurescript or have you moved on to something better? |
| 16:19 | noprompt | lynaghk: i heard there was a talk given at clojure west (which i missed sadly) that spoke on making that sort of thing easier with a few tricks but i don't think the talk has been posted yet. |
| 16:26 | mefesto | if i have different feature branches of a project being worked on and would like to test them out in another project; is there a version naming scheme that anyone recommends? I was thinking 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT-feature-name |
| 16:26 | gfredericks | Raynes for california state senate |
| 16:27 | mefesto | he'd have my vote. if i lived out there |
| 16:27 | djwonk | any Washington DC area folks in here? I'm about to head to the user group meeting |
| 16:27 | Raynes | gfredericks: That was pretty random. :o |
| 16:28 | gfredericks | Raynes: mefesto brought it up |
| 16:28 | Raynes | Oh, I didn't read that far back. |
| 16:28 | Raynes | I accept your nomination, gfredericks. |
| 16:28 | Raynes | I shall begin campaigning tomorrow. |
| 16:29 | nkoza | there is some function in the standard libs equivalent to #(fn [x] true) ? (always returns true, can be useful to replace a predicate) |
| 16:29 | Raynes | (constantly true) |
| 16:29 | noprompt | Raynes: and i shall help you with flyers, banners, stickers, buttons, and a personal website! |
| 16:29 | hiredman | (doc constantly) |
| 16:29 | clojurebot | "([x]); Returns a function that takes any number of arguments and returns x." |
| 16:29 | Raynes | Which is amusingly longer, nkoza, but a nicer solution in general. |
| 16:29 | Raynes | Man, hiredman still has me on /ignore? :( |
| 16:30 | noprompt | (doc occasionally) |
| 16:30 | clojurebot | Excuse me? |
| 16:30 | Raynes | It has been like 3 years now. |
| 16:30 | noprompt | lol |
| 16:30 | nkoza | Raynes: thanks |
| 16:30 | bbloom | noprompt: (def occasionally constantly) ; All occasions |
| 16:31 | bbloom | something something something fair dice roll |
| 16:31 | noprompt | lol |
| 16:31 | pjstadig | somewhat-less-than-usual |
| 16:31 | amalloy | well, #(fn [x] true) is more like (fn [] (constantly true)). i assume nkoze actually wanted (constantly true) but included the # in his request just to confuse matters |
| 16:32 | nkoza | the # was a typo, sorry :) |
| 16:32 | noprompt | whenever would be a fun one. |
| 16:32 | hiredman | 3d6+5 |
| 16:32 | clojurebot | 15 |
| 16:33 | noprompt | (whenenver some-fn) ;; At some point in the future call some-fn. |
| 16:33 | gfredericks | noprompt: why just the future? couldn't calling it in the past be allowed? |
| 16:33 | mefesto | (every-now-and-then x) |
| 16:34 | noprompt | (every-now-and-then get-a-little-bit-lonely) |
| 16:34 | noprompt | gfredericks: how would that work? |
| 16:34 | metellus | gfredericks: not by causality |
| 16:34 | noprompt | (at-a-later-date ...) |
| 16:35 | pjstadig | gfredericks: don't be disrespecting the arrow of time! |
| 16:35 | gfredericks | it's all an illusion! |
| 16:35 | metellus | if it was a compile-time thing that could work though |
| 16:35 | metellus | the compiler finds that and just throws some-fn somewhere |
| 16:36 | ToxicFrog | Raynes: I have someone on ignore from like 2008...although to be fair they were an incredibly persistent troll and probably aren't around anymore. |
| 16:36 | ToxicFrog | Client should probably clean up ignores after a year or something. |
| 16:36 | mefesto | (defmacro surprise-me [& body]) |
| 16:36 | pjstadig | gfredericks: that's right, i forgot that Einstein's Theory of Relativity establishes the non-existence of time |
| 16:37 | Raynes | ToxicFrog: Totally fair, but to this day I have no idea what prompted the ignoring. Nobody would ever tell me, and he and I have even exchanged smiles on elevators. I sometimes wonder if he is simply forgotten. |
| 16:37 | Raynes | he has* |
| 16:38 | Raynes | I can't help but think of how much we could have accomplished over the years had it been possible to put our snarks together while answering questions. |
| 16:38 | hiredman | I saw a nova special once, I'm pretty sure it did |
| 16:39 | pjstadig | hiredman: http://amzn.com/B0095XKMS8 |
| 16:39 | tomjack | dnolen: I've made a couple starts on adding async to clojurescript.test, no success yet |
| 16:40 | noprompt | bbloom: well i guess you could have the function do something and then at some random point in time later tell you. |
| 16:40 | tomjack | more motivation now that my core.async cljs port gives me a way to convey dynamic bindings |
| 16:40 | tomjack | I got stuck trying to think about what to do about that instead of just hacking it somehow |
| 16:40 | noprompt | (defmacro whenever [fn ohey-msg]) |
| 16:41 | tomjack | now we can hack it somehow (i.e. tester's responsibility to convey clojurescript.test's dynamic vars) and have core.async make it work for us |
| 16:41 | hiredman | noprompt: I'm pretty sure there is a ruby library that does that |
| 16:41 | ToxicFrog | Raynes: huh. I'd tell you if I knew, but I'm pretty sure that was before my time here. |
| 16:41 | noprompt | hiredman: nice. |
| 16:42 | Raynes | ToxicFrog: It's very possible and even likely that I was annoying as hell though. I was like 15 at the time. |
| 16:42 | ToxicFrog | Oh |
| 16:42 | ToxicFrog | That might do it |
| 16:45 | gzmask | /leave #clojure |
| 17:08 | djwonk | bbloom: (def random 42) ; 42 chosen at random |
| 17:08 | bbloom | djwonk: that was the joke, yes |
| 17:09 | djwonk | where is the community-accepted place to say "i'd like to hire a Clojure freelancer for some work?" |
| 17:11 | djwonk | will try the mailing list |
| 17:13 | Foxboron | bbloom, djwonk needs more XKCD |
| 17:13 | justin_smith | once you adapt to the elevated smugness levels it is nice |
| 17:14 | mabes_ | lol |
| 17:14 | Foxboron | noprompt, negativity never helps a dream :D |
| 17:15 | noprompt | :P |
| 17:15 | noprompt | i'm actually a pretty positive guy. |
| 17:15 | gfredericks | the correct group-noun for clojurians is "an IPersistentCollection" |
| 17:15 | noprompt | i work with clojure pretty much everyday now at work, just not on a team. :/ |
| 17:16 | noprompt | gfredericks: :) |
| 17:31 | gfredericks | noprompt: being on a team of people writing clojure pretty much degenerates into macro wars. You have to write macros that somehow trick your opponents' macros into behaving unexpectedly. |
| 17:33 | hiredman | feh |
| 17:33 | gfredericks | hiredman is apparently not winning |
| 17:33 | hiredman | if your team has a 2 inc policy, there is no way you can do that |
| 17:34 | hiredman | (only code reviewed and given two plus ones can be merged) |
| 17:34 | gfredericks | that just makes it more challenging |
| 17:36 | hiredman | it means at least two other people have seen your macros already, very hard to sneak things in |
| 17:36 | hyPiRion | nono, you just team up with other people |
| 17:37 | hiredman | horse trading |
| 17:37 | hiredman | of course everyone also has a dec veto |
| 17:44 | gfredericks | is there any reason not to create a jira ticket about clojure.walk metadata loss? |
| 17:45 | noprompt | so in clojure, team member is just an alias for opponent? |
| 17:45 | noprompt | interesting. |
| 17:45 | noprompt | :P |
| 17:45 | hiredman | "review committee member" |
| 17:46 | patchwork | This is why we don't use macros : P |
| 17:46 | gfredericks | "the other elements of my IPersistentCollection" |
| 17:47 | gfredericks | maybe it should be a transient |
| 17:49 | noprompt | i want a macro that overwrites a random function in another namespace, then when the function is called randomly executes the body of code given to the macro, suppresses all execptions, and returns nil. |
| 17:50 | gfredericks | at macro-expand-time or runtime? |
| 17:50 | noprompt | hiredman: that is ruby. |
| 17:50 | noprompt | gfredericks: which would be worse? |
| 17:51 | gfredericks | noprompt: I have no idea |
| 17:51 | noprompt | worse as in better, as in more evil. |
| 17:51 | noprompt | hmm... in this case probably at run time |
| 17:53 | hiredman | (defmacro bad [& body] (in-ns 'foo) `(do ~@body)) |
| 17:56 | noprompt | (defmacro very-bad [& body] `(do (try (bad ~@body) (catch Exception e#)) nil)) |
| 17:59 | gfredericks | you don't really need macros for this kind of evil |
| 17:59 | gfredericks | just have some top level code that sleeps for 3 hours and then wraps every var in the system to return nil 0.01% of the time |
| 17:59 | gfredericks | (in a future perhaps) |
| 17:59 | noprompt | haha |
| 18:00 | hiredman | gfredericks: the thing with macros is the code in them gets executed when code is compiled, so they don't actually need to be top-level |
| 18:01 | hiredman | so you can hide (bad ...) inside a function, and suddenly the following code is being compiled in a namespace without clojure.core |
| 18:02 | tieTYT2 | i'm thinking of writing a game's server in clojure. Netty seems like a cool api, but won't I have to intimately understand it in order to use it in clojure since it may have different concurrency concepts? |
| 18:05 | hiredman | tieTYT2: how can you have different concurrency concepts? do you mean identity/state management? |
| 18:05 | hiredman | netty (I am pretty sure) doesn't have any of that |
| 18:05 | tieTYT2 | i'm not sure because I don't know either very well. My impression is clojure is very opinionated on concurrency and state. Netty may violate those opinions |
| 18:06 | tieTYT2 | and I'm afraid if I use netty in a clojure app, it may have unexpected results |
| 18:06 | hiredman | so? |
| 18:06 | patchwork | https://github.com/ztellman/aleph uses netty |
| 18:06 | patchwork | and is clojure |
| 18:07 | tieTYT2 | that's reassuring |
| 18:07 | hiredman | I don't really understand what you are getting at, if you use one thing you don't understand you are likely to get unexpected results |
| 18:07 | hiredman | let alone two things |
| 18:07 | amalloy | hugod: i'm pleased to report that the ritz instructions are now so obvious that i was able to get ritz and nrepl going in just a few minutes, after years of using swank/slime |
| 18:07 | tieTYT2 | yeah that's true |
| 18:08 | tieTYT2 | but I figure it could take weeks to discover they're incompatible with each other so I thought I'd save some time by asking the question |
| 18:08 | tieTYT2 | looks like they're safe to use together |
| 18:09 | hiredman | tieTYT2: clojure is a generally purpose language, it integrates with the jvm, you can use anything else on the jvm with it |
| 18:15 | tieTYT2 | well I get the sense that if you use a mutable java object with refs, you'll get unexpected results. But you can't really get yourself in trouble if you build a pure clojure app |
| 18:16 | hiredman | that is not true |
| 18:16 | tieTYT2 | which part? |
| 18:17 | hiredman | you can easily shoot yourselft in the foot using just clojure |
| 18:17 | tieTYT2 | oh i see |
| 18:18 | hiredman | the only safety is understanding, which is difficult |
| 18:18 | nDuff | tieTYT2: ...and Clojure _does_ provide tools that help with management of mutable objects, though just how useful those tools are depend on just how unpredictable the objects' behavior is. |
| 18:19 | nDuff | tieTYT2: ...making access go through agents, for instance, does a fair bit of good for predictability when something isn't changing its state except when poked. |
| 18:19 | tieTYT2 | ok well i'll learn more about this when i get started, thanks |
| 18:33 | tomjack | cemerick: I'm trying to patch clojurescript.test for async test support. I see a few options: 1) rewrite all the dynamic vars into atoms |
| 18:34 | tomjack | 2) provide cemerick.cljs.test/bound-fn like this https://www.refheap.com/320114f8f611dbe10d04b8df5 and require people to wrap their async callbacks with it, 3) provide a bit more general bound-fn workaround which allows specifying a list of vars to convey in addition to cemerick.cljs.test's |
| 18:34 | tomjack | or 4) make it the tester's responsibility to convey cemerick.cljs.test's vars in the manner of their choosing |
| 18:34 | tomjack | .. or 5) wait till clojurescript supports binding conveyance |
| 18:34 | tomjack | any thoughts? |
| 18:35 | tomjack | option 1 could be not so bad by writing a custom binding macro that just uses atoms |
| 18:36 | tomjack | 6) rewrite clojure.test so that it doesn't use dynamic scope |
| 18:36 | tomjack | :D |
| 18:38 | tomjack | option 3 doesn't make sense, they won't have clojurescript.test's bound-fn workaround in prod to convey vars, so shouldn't do that in tests |
| 18:42 | dnolen | it occurs to me that advanced compilation frees us to do some perf tricks around bound-fn |
| 18:43 | dnolen | since we know all the dynamic vars in a program we can just do array lookup |
| 18:44 | tomjack | why only advanced? |
| 18:44 | bbloom | tomjack: because you can't def new vars in advanced |
| 18:45 | bbloom | tomjack: you know them all apriori |
| 18:45 | tomjack | from the cljs compiler's perspective the situation is the same, though, right? you just know that the state you're building up will not be reused later? |
| 18:46 | dnolen | bbloom: did you just use a mutable array in your implementation for the var stack? |
| 18:46 | bbloom | dnolen: do we care much about non-advanced perf? b/c the real problem is that if dynamic vars are special, redefing from static to dynamic or vise versa will break previously compiled call sites |
| 18:46 | bbloom | dnolen: my implementation was a long time ago and i was much dumber then :-P i don't recall what i did, i think i just ported the JVM code more or less line for line |
| 18:46 | dnolen | bbloom: yeah we don't, I'm just thinking about the cheapest operation possible so it won't affect normal usage of dynamic binding |
| 18:48 | bbloom | dnolen: is NEVER GETS ANY SLOWER a realistic perf goal? i think that the full persistent maps version of var non-root-values is reasonably fast for a small number of dynamic variables, which is the norm |
| 18:48 | bbloom | rather than getting particularly clever |
| 18:48 | bbloom | the concern (for me) has always been slowing down normal fn calls & constants and the like (aka non dynamics) |
| 18:48 | tomjack | personally I'm guessing I'd like to have the same access as now |
| 18:49 | tomjack | I don't know if cljque's use of dynamic vars is a good one, but it's a good example I think |
| 18:49 | tomjack | you probably don't want a PHM lookup every single time you register a callback on a promise? |
| 18:49 | tomjack | eh, who knows, maybe it wouldn't matter |
| 18:49 | bbloom | dnolen: see also http://dev.clojure.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=950293 which shows that clojure has similar problems to those that we're thinking about in cljs |
| 18:49 | dnolen | actually I don't even think we need a stack |
| 18:50 | dnolen | just an array w/ slots for each dynamic var |
| 18:50 | dnolen | bound-fn would clone it |
| 18:50 | bbloom | i'm sure i've asked this before, but would prototype lookup chains be good enough? |
| 18:51 | bbloom | this way you could treat the "stack" as js objects you just never modify after create |
| 18:51 | bbloom | lookup would be linear with depth of stack |
| 18:51 | bbloom | generally, bindings are pretty shallow |
| 18:51 | bbloom | unless you're doing `binding on every iteration of a recursion, which isn't shallow, but is also kinda a bad idea :-P |
| 18:52 | tomjack | why have the stack? |
| 18:52 | bbloom | then bound-fn just needs to alias the current obj pointer |
| 18:52 | bbloom | so object clone cost |
| 18:52 | hiredman | you're not allowed to recur across a binding |
| 18:52 | bbloom | s/so/no/ |
| 18:52 | hiredman | actally is that true? |
| 18:52 | hiredman | maybe you shouldn't be, but are |
| 18:53 | gfredericks | binding involves a try/finally, so presumably not at the moment? |
| 18:53 | dnolen | bbloom: prototype chain idea is clever |
| 18:53 | hiredman | gfredericks: ah, good |
| 18:53 | gfredericks | but I thought rich was trying to "fix" that |
| 18:53 | hiredman | excellent |
| 18:53 | tomjack | I see my last attempt actually does have the stack |
| 18:53 | hiredman | gfredericks: the fix was to the code that disallowed it, it would do stuff like stop you from loop/recuring inside a finally |
| 18:53 | dnolen | bbloom: cheaper for bound-fn since we don't have to clone ... just create new object and set prototype |
| 18:53 | lynaghk | noprompt: yes, doing a lot of angular.js + cljs over here; no plans to change, either. I'll be dropping quite a bit of open source stuff in the next month or so to coincide with the release of an iOS angular.js+cljs weather app. |
| 18:54 | bbloom | dnolen: i've been saying this for a year now :-) |
| 18:54 | hiredman | gfredericks: allowing reucring across bindings and try/catch/finally (with there dynamic extent) is a bad idea |
| 18:54 | dnolen | bbloom: heh yeah, but core.async didn't exist then ;) |
| 18:54 | bbloom | dnolen: however, forgive me for sucking at communicating for the first 8 months or so of that |
| 18:54 | hiredman | so I doubt rich is changing that |
| 18:55 | gfredericks | hiredman: oh you mean (try (finally (loop ... (recur))) was disallowed? |
| 18:55 | hiredman | yeah |
| 18:55 | gfredericks | that's a weird thing to want to do though isn't it? |
| 18:55 | hiredman | so the compiler would complain if you put a doseq in a finally |
| 18:55 | gfredericks | ooh |
| 18:55 | gfredericks | hm |
| 18:55 | hiredman | gfredericks: happens all the time for cleaning up a list of resources |
| 18:55 | gfredericks | yeah I guess so |
| 18:56 | gfredericks | okay cool |
| 18:56 | noprompt | lynaghk: awesome. i'll definitely be looking forward to that. hopefully it's right around the time i get back in the angularjs + clojurescript game. |
| 18:57 | noprompt | lynaghk: the big thing that bothered me was all the clj->js madness and basically ended up writing a lot of wrapper code. |
| 18:57 | lynaghk | noprompt: there's not a ton of new stuff, to be honest. Basically, just using native JS data structures from CLJS by implementing a handful of protocols |
| 18:57 | hiredman | Juha Arpiainen finally fixed it |
| 18:58 | noprompt | lynaghk: which protocols? |
| 18:58 | lynaghk | ILookup, ISeq, that kind of thing |
| 18:58 | bbloom | dnolen: so in clojure there is only clojure.lang.Var, which is mutably static or dynamic |
| 18:58 | lynaghk | so you can say, e.g., (let [{:keys [a b]} your-js-object] ...) and have it just work |
| 18:59 | noprompt | so are you using extend-type Object for that sort of thing? |
| 18:59 | lynaghk | noprompt: yep. |
| 18:59 | bbloom | dnolen: my proposal is an IVar with 3 implementations: 1) the same as clojure for non advanced compilation. 2) DynamicVar for use in advanced compilation where static vars are optimized away via a full-program pass and 3) StaticVar, for still allowing #'foo syntax even after static vars are compiled away |
| 18:59 | tomjack | lynaghk: that is evil :P |
| 18:59 | hiredman | bbloom: clojure vars can be :static, :dynamic, :const, or a regular var |
| 19:00 | noprompt | tomjack: i was just about to say that is what i heard but surely there is a clean way to handle that. |
| 19:00 | dnolen | bbloom: yeah I still not interested in bringing in any var semantics - just language support to convey bindings |
| 19:00 | lynaghk | tomjack noprompt: what in particular strikes you as evil? |
| 19:00 | noprompt | yeah i'd love an explanation on that one. |
| 19:01 | tomjack | objects aren't values, values "refuse to help you program imperatively ... that's a feature" |
| 19:01 | bbloom | dnolen: even if you ignore #3, you still need a full var impl to support incremental development without having to recompile stale call sites: you need the extra level of indirection that vars provide |
| 19:01 | tomjack | imo clojure(script)'s core protocols should also refuse to help you program imperatively |
| 19:02 | dnolen | bbloom: ah right |
| 19:02 | tomjack | though, I dunno |
| 19:02 | dnolen | bbloom: still, likely to just hide that as implementation detail |
| 19:02 | tomjack | you can destructure arrays in clojure |
| 19:02 | tomjack | but arrays don't implement IIndexed |
| 19:03 | dnolen | tomjack: technically you destructure IndexedSeq |
| 19:03 | bbloom | dnolen: happy to implement it without exposing the var functions other than via a hypen prefixed "private" protocol method |
| 19:03 | noprompt | lynaghk: well, whenever you make that stuff public let me know. i'm going to be making heavy use of angular here w/in a month. |
| 19:04 | tomjack | dnolen: in clojurescript? nth on java arrays does not use IndexedSeq afaik |
| 19:04 | noprompt | and, no, i refuse to write raw js. |
| 19:04 | noprompt | :) |
| 19:04 | dnolen | bbloom: if you have time, cleanup the patch and I'll take a look! |
| 19:04 | dnolen | tomjack: yes sorry CLJS |
| 19:04 | dnolen | tomjack: thought you were talking about protocols |
| 19:04 | lynaghk | noprompt: (shameless plug) there will be an announcement on the Keming Labs mailing list, and probably also the cljs mailing list. |
| 19:05 | bbloom | dnolen: i might just bang that out tonight, since i'm sick of having this conversation on loop :-) |
| 19:05 | tomjack | I see, there's a special case in seq for js arrays |
| 19:05 | dnolen | bbloom: haha, cool |
| 19:05 | noprompt | lynaghk: good deal. i'll keep my eye out for it. |
| 19:05 | tomjack | well there's a special case in nth too |
| 19:06 | dnolen | tomjack: yeah we used to do this stuff via protocols but it's faster to just do it in seq and it also it makes reasoning about dead code elimination simpler |
| 19:07 | tomjack | so neither clojure and clojurescript provide any evidence as to whether arrays 'should' implement Indexed |
| 19:07 | bbloom | dnolen: heh, my patch is OLD. i can probably redo it faster from scratch |
| 19:08 | bbloom | dnolen: only took me 2ish days the first time & i had no idea what i was doing then |
| 19:08 | tomjack | I guess if it doesn't implement IPersistentCollection, it might not be evil |
| 19:09 | dnolen | tomjack: in CLJS arrays used implement Indexed, again changed for perf |
| 19:09 | tomjack | oh right the fact that they did before is some evidence that they 'should' |
| 19:10 | dnolen | the important thing is that nth work on arrays |
| 19:10 | hiredman | how is an appeal to authority any kind of evidence? |
| 19:11 | tomjack | depends on the authority |
| 19:11 | tomjack | I'm guessing dnolen wrote it so it counts as evidence to me :) |
| 19:11 | dnolen | tomjack: heh no, all the protocol stuff was in place long before I did anything |
| 19:12 | dnolen | I've most removed the protocols on natives for code size and perf reasons |
| 19:12 | dnolen | mostly |
| 19:13 | tomjack | lynaghk: I retract my claim, as long as equiv and cons throw |
| 19:14 | brehaut | dnolen: unrelated cljs q: is there a method apply function / macro in cljs? eg to make (.apply (.-method o) o (to-array seq)) simpler? |
| 19:14 | tomjack | or equiv could be identity equality maybe like datomic entities.. :/ |
| 19:16 | hiredman | tomjack: if equiv is egal, egal for mutable things is identity |
| 19:16 | tomjack | is = egal? |
| 19:16 | hiredman | rich has said clojure's = (based on equiv, but not when he said that) is an implementation of egal |
| 19:16 | technomancy | tomjack: not really |
| 19:16 | hiredman | but technomancy disagrees |
| 19:17 | technomancy | it's close, but it makes some concessions to convenience |
| 19:17 | tomjack | like pcequiv? or what |
| 19:17 | tomjack | ..I need to read that paper |
| 19:17 | hiredman | clojure's equality has also under gone some changes since rich said that (it was in one of the blip tv videos) |
| 19:18 | technomancy | tomjack: the most obvious is equivalence between vectors and seqs despite them having very different operational behaviour |
| 19:18 | tomjack | right, that's what I was thinking of. I think that's due to pcequiv |
| 19:18 | technomancy | oh, gotcha |
| 19:18 | technomancy | I'm not familiar with the implementation much |
| 19:19 | dnolen | brehaut: is this some interop you're doing? |
| 19:19 | hiredman | of course pjstadig disagrees with technomancy to some extent, but he isn't as vocal in #clojure |
| 19:19 | technomancy | tomjack: if you are super-pedantic you could say that the presence of the identical? function also disqualifies it |
| 19:19 | brehaut | dnolen: someone was wanting it yesterday, and i dont actually use cljs at all, but yes, for interop |
| 19:19 | technomancy | err--actually I think the paper specifically makes allowances for "primitive" identity functions, so maybe scratch that |
| 19:19 | technomancy | but things can print differently and still be equal |
| 19:20 | dnolen | brehaut: (apply (.-method obj) o seq) should work |
| 19:21 | brehaut | dnolen: oh right. cool |
| 19:21 | technomancy | I think we can make exceptions for things that are explicitly defined as implementation detail, like the order in which elements of unordered collections print |
| 19:21 | technomancy | but there are other cases where equal things print differently |
| 19:22 | dnolen | brehaut: apply is designed to interop w/ regular JS fns |
| 19:22 | tomjack | so take datomic entities. consider an operation which takes two datomic entities and returns a predicate of datomic times. ((=?= e1 e2) t) is true if, at datomic time t, the datoms in the extent of the e1 are equivalent to the datoms in the extent of e2 (substituting their entity ids appropriately). if datomic time t has not yet occurred, I suppose it throws or blocks |
| 19:22 | brehaut | dnolen: its a little unfortunate that you still have to mention the object twice |
| 19:23 | tomjack | so e.g. ((=?= e1 e2) 0) is always true (for non-bootstrap entities) because the extent of any two (non-bootstrap) entities at t=0 is empty |
| 19:23 | dnolen | brehaut: well it's not any cleaner in JS :) |
| 19:23 | brehaut | (but its also unfortunate that you'd have to do the same thing in js) |
| 19:23 | tomjack | what is that? I can't call it 'equality'.. |
| 19:25 | poindontcare | question, is evaling sufficient for creating classes with gen-class or does one need to do something special? |
| 19:25 | tomjack | hmm that has been brewing in the back of my head for a while but now that I say it I realize is all wrong |
| 19:26 | bbloom | dnolen: what's the cljs-ism for the JS "in" operator? |
| 19:30 | tomjack | 'equal' entities must have the exact same histories/futures, which makes that 'equality' useless |
| 19:31 | tomjack | because almost certainly only identical entities are going to be 'equal' |
| 19:37 | Morgawr | as far as running Clojure without a JVM, what viable options do I have? I know of Clojure on CLR (nope) and ClojureScript (great, I use it). I've heard about compiling clojure to scheme and then scheme to C but that sounds very farfectched. There's also clojure-py but the project hasn't gotten any contribution for a while |
| 19:37 | Morgawr | what other options are there? |
| 19:56 | brehaut | Morgawr: thats an implementation for the three big platforms, two more esoteric / niche platforms, and indirectly one old big platform. there arent really many non-niche / esoteric platforms remaining (objC/cocoa being the obvious one not listed) |
| 19:57 | brehaut | i recall seeing toy implementations for haskell, and c in the past, maybe also objective c, but nothing you'd want to build on |
| 19:57 | brehaut | but your google is as good as mine |
| 19:57 | Morgawr | I see, thanks |
| 19:58 | hiredman | fine is far better, because it is mine |
| 19:58 | hiredman | mine |
| 19:58 | Morgawr | I guess I don't even know what I want myself... it's just that I despise the JVM |
| 19:58 | hiredman | you shouldn't |
| 19:58 | technomancy | it's great for most things and terrible at a few |
| 19:58 | brehaut | despising the JVM is an extremists position that isnt supported by evidence |
| 19:58 | Morgawr | it's a cumbersome beast, eats a lot of memory, lots of dependencies, doesn't play well on some Linux systems, etc etc |
| 19:58 | hiredman | Morgawr: none of that is true |
| 19:59 | hiredman | Morgawr: what you mean is "I am unfamilier with the jvm" |
| 19:59 | Morgawr | maybe |
| 20:00 | technomancy | "doesn't play well on some linux systems"? |
| 20:00 | Morgawr | the differences between proprietary and non-proprietary jvm implementations are tricky |
| 20:00 | Morgawr | at least in my experience when developing Java |
| 20:00 | technomancy | don't use anything but openjdk |
| 20:00 | brehaut | the eats memory one amuses always me; python backed sites i develop frequently consume more ram than my clojure powered sites |
| 20:00 | technomancy | problem solved |
| 20:01 | technomancy | if you got tricked into thinking gcj was an actual thing then you have my sympathy though |
| 20:01 | hiredman | the reference jvm impl is openjdk at the moment |
| 20:01 | Morgawr | brehaut: I tried to see if I could install the jvm to play with clojure on my headless server and I had to download 300+MB of dependencies with X server and all of that stuff (I don't use X server on a headless server, kthx) |
| 20:01 | hiredman | Morgawr: that is a packaging issue |
| 20:01 | technomancy | Morgawr: either your package manager sucks, or you weren't paying attention to the x-free variants |
| 20:02 | hiredman | on debian based systems there are usually -headless package variants of the jvm |
| 20:02 | Morgawr | oh, so Clojure is built with openjdk as reference? That's good to hear, I've always used openjdk and I was speaking only from my Java experience (I love clojure and never had problems with openjdk), so I guess I was wrong with that |
| 20:02 | Morgawr | I guess I can give another go at the whole packaging/jvm stuff |
| 20:02 | hiredman | you can also go to the oracle website and download hotspot and run it right of the tarball they give you, without installing anything |
| 20:03 | nightfly | in debian/ubuntu openjdk-7-jre-headless is probably what you want |
| 20:03 | dnolen | bbloom: for .. in ? |
| 20:03 | technomancy | there are some issues with the IBM JDK that come up occasionally, but there's no reason to use that unless you work for IBM |
| 20:03 | hiredman | Morgawr: no, I mean the jvm reference implementation |
| 20:03 | n_b | The only place I have ever had JVM issues is on an RPi |
| 20:03 | brehaut | dnolen: key in associativeObj |
| 20:03 | Morgawr | I really do love Clojure, I really want it to work out well for me but I'm just a bit taken aback by the whole jvm business, I'm sorry (I'll do more extensive research on the matter) |
| 20:03 | bbloom | dnolen: yeah what brehaut said |
| 20:03 | bbloom | anyway, i'm just hacking up a proof of concept of one approach |
| 20:03 | bbloom | so i just js* hacked it for now |
| 20:04 | brehaut | particularly useful for key in sparseArray |
| 20:04 | hiredman | n_b: most likely due to hard/soft float differences in arm abis |
| 20:04 | brehaut | s/for/in context of/ |
| 20:04 | dnolen | bbloom: hmm I don't think we have anything for that |
| 20:04 | bbloom | could probably just be js-contains? |
| 20:05 | hiredman | I use oracle's hotspot jvm on my beaglebone (soft float) |
| 20:05 | n_b | hiredman: That's precisely it; it's not a platform I'd ever expect to be well supported, so that it works at all is a testament to its versatility |
| 20:05 | livingston | I have some ring middle-ware (a friend wrapper specifically) I'd like to have it get some of the config values from a file on the server, except the standard way to build up apps is always with def this and def that, which will cause my compiler will want to read the file at compile time -- what's the best way to not do that? |
| 20:05 | dnolen | bbloom: oh right, goog has it |
| 20:05 | bbloom | dnolen: oh? what is it? |
| 20:05 | dnolen | goog.object.containsKey |
| 20:06 | bbloom | ah, ok |
| 20:06 | bbloom | i'll file that away for the future |
| 20:06 | bbloom | in the meantime, hack hack hack |
| 20:07 | brehaut | livingston: if you are using compojure, defroutes just wraps routes in a def |
| 20:08 | hiredman | livingston: there are a number of libraries for reading configs, carica (from the clojure team at sonian) and environ are two |
| 20:09 | livingston | brehaut: those are fine it's the part to wrap the middleware around those that was an issue,... the example I had put all that in a def and then called defservice on that... |
| 20:09 | hiredman | I think environ does something config related, I've only ever used carica |
| 20:10 | livingston | .. if I avoid keeping the intermediate value and just wrap the code in defservice I'm fine -- I think.. |
| 20:10 | brehaut | im not familiar with defservice |
| 20:10 | livingston | hiredman: oh. great. I haven't seen those, always better than reinventing the wheel - I'll take a look. |
| 20:11 | hiredman | carica basically reads clojure maps from files on the classpath and merges them, so you can have an empty map that used for dev testing or whatever, or a map with some default values, and you put the file with the map with the real values on the classpath in production and it uses that |
| 20:12 | hiredman | https://github.com/sonian/carica |
| 20:12 | gfredericks | hiredman: you normally have a build step that copies an env-specific "config.clj" onto the classpath? |
| 20:13 | hiredman | livingston: but generally having a top level form that does i/o like that is a bad idea |
| 20:13 | livingston | yeah I know -- that's why I was trying to avoid it - more importantly I can't even compile it |
| 20:14 | hiredman | gfredericks: no, the environment specific config (that overrides the defaults) is written by chef to a known place, and the launcher script always puts that known place in the right place on the classpath |
| 20:14 | hiredman | (for our setup) |
| 20:14 | livingston | brehaut: defservice is for ring to create a servelet that will play nicely in tomcat |
| 20:14 | hiredman | you certainly could do some kind of build step to pre-brake everything in |
| 20:15 | hiredman | technomancy: hey now http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/118 |
| 20:16 | technomancy | hiredman: whoa daaaaang |
| 20:16 | technomancy | nice |
| 20:17 | hiredman | slated for java 8 |
| 20:18 | hiredman | http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/jdk8-dev/2013-May/002575.html |
| 20:20 | tomjack | which is slated for 2014 sometime? |
| 20:21 | brainproxy | hiredman: would the implication be that you could introspect a compiled functions parameters list? |
| 20:21 | hiredman | brainproxy: if the clojure compiler was extended to emit the attributes |
| 20:22 | brainproxy | hiredman: that would be nice |
| 20:22 | brainproxy | I was just thinking of that today actually |
| 20:22 | brainproxy | I learned a trick for doing effectively that in javascript (at runtime!) the other day |
| 20:22 | hiredman | you can currently look at the debugging information (which isn't really exposed through the java reflection api) which tells you the name of locals (and args) and their scope |
| 20:23 | brainproxy | https://github.com/michaelsbradleyjr/jonas/blob/master/jonas.js#L1519 |
| 20:23 | hiredman | so if a local has a scoping starting at 0, then it is likely an arg |
| 20:23 | brainproxy | ^ you can use that technique to smartly build "environments" that are not dependent on the position of parameters, but only on their name |
| 20:24 | hiredman | gross |
| 20:25 | brainproxy | true, but it works like a hose :D |
| 20:25 | hiredman | by "environment" you mean a map |
| 20:26 | brainproxy | hiredman: sure, or a mori hash-map :) |
| 20:33 | Sgeo | So, Clojure/West videos are going online |
| 20:34 | Morgawr | wow, takes around a couple of minutes to start a simple repl on my raspberry pi, haha |
| 20:34 | Morgawr | and lein takes 5-10 minutes without output when trying to run the repl, not sure if it hangs or if it just takes forever |
| 20:35 | hiredman | which jvm? |
| 20:35 | dnolen | brainproxy: heh if only JS had real reflection |
| 20:35 | Morgawr | hiredman: I think I got the openjvm-headless |
| 20:35 | hiredman | the pi is hard float, and last I checked there wasn't a real jvm released for it |
| 20:36 | Morgawr | I'm using raspbian, it has hard float packages but I'm not sure if the jvm has been ported to that (probably not) |
| 20:36 | tomjack | Sgeo: at infoq? |
| 20:36 | brainproxy | dnolen: true that |
| 20:36 | Sgeo | tomjack, I assume so, not sure. Saw it on Twitter |
| 20:36 | n_b | it's so slow as to not really be worth it Morgawr |
| 20:36 | Sgeo | I just want to see the Racket talk >.> |
| 20:37 | hiredman | the beaglebone has a bit of an edge, older hardware, better support |
| 20:37 | Sgeo | tomjack, https://twitter.com/ClojureWest/status/339344089940099074 |
| 20:37 | Morgawr | n_b: yeah, probably... what a shame |
| 20:37 | tomjack | ah right, trickling out :) |
| 20:38 | bbloom | dnolen: ok so there is a blocking sub-issue: the AST doesn't provide any info for differentiating :var from :the-var from :some-thing-that-looks-sorta-like-a-var-and-hijacks-a-common-emit-code-path |
| 20:38 | Sgeo | I wonder if #lang clojure would work well on Raspberry Pi |
| 20:38 | n_b | I'd love to write my home automation stuff in clj and run it on the Pi, but I think between the limited RAM and my unfamiliarity with JVM it would be a recipe for disaster. |
| 20:38 | bbloom | dnolen: for example, (set! some-var 123) |
| 20:38 | Sgeo | Although I guess that's not real Clojure |
| 20:38 | hiredman | apparently you can install a sof float linux distro on the pi and use the soft float jvm |
| 20:38 | hiredman | http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/articles/java/raspberrypi-1704896.html#Java |
| 20:38 | Morgawr | hiredman: yeah, I had normal debian (soft float) before but it's not going to make any difference afaik |
| 20:38 | hiredman | hmm |
| 20:39 | dnolen | bbloom: ok, separate ticket+patch for that please |
| 20:39 | n_b | Might be slightly better on a ModelBv2 with the 512 RAM |
| 20:39 | tomjack | what are things that sort of look like vars? |
| 20:39 | Morgawr | and yeah, my model has 256MB of ram so that's also a bother |
| 20:39 | bbloom | dnolen: after i finish this hack hack hack proof of concept |
| 20:39 | dnolen | bbloom: k |
| 20:40 | hiredman | ah, my beaglebone has 512mb |
| 20:40 | dnolen | tomjack: bbloom is talking about CLJS compiler internals, vars are any symbol that appears in source in that respect |
| 20:40 | n_b | something like a Beaglebone Black as the "core" of the system with RPI endpoints might make more sense |
| 20:40 | tomjack | so like a mutable deftype field? |
| 20:41 | n_b | or really Arduinos with an ethernet shield for prototyping and some custom boards once everything is solidified |
| 20:41 | dnolen | Morgawr: you could always run a CLJS program - V8/Node.js is fast on RPi from what I've heard |
| 20:41 | hiredman | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPN2DFrlrYo#t=50s I have a little rover running clojure |
| 20:41 | bbloom | org.mozilla.javascript.EvaluatorException: Encountered code generation error while compiling function "39": Program too complex: too big jump offset (cljs/core.cljs#2402) |
| 20:41 | Morgawr | yeah, I guess.. although I don't really dig node.js |
| 20:41 | bbloom | lol weeee |
| 20:41 | bbloom | :-) |
| 20:42 | Morgawr | mine was mostly just some personal interest, normally I use clojurescript for game development (or at least try to) on the browser |
| 20:42 | dnolen | heh |
| 20:43 | dnolen | brainproxy: thanks again for reviving mori, seems like a few people are interested :) |
| 20:43 | Sgeo | mori? |
| 20:43 | brainproxy | dnolen: sure thing, and I'm glad to hear that |
| 20:43 | brainproxy | I saw the post on HN as well |
| 20:43 | dnolen | Sgeo: CLJS persistent data structures as a JS library |
| 20:43 | Sgeo | dnolen, ah, neat |
| 20:44 | dnolen | Sgeo: mostly targeting Node.js since it's not a small dependency. |
| 20:44 | brainproxy | Sgeo: http://swannodette.github.io/mori/ |
| 20:44 | Sgeo | Oh, node.js... wake me up when it gets first-class continuations >.> |
| 20:44 | brainproxy | Sgeo: it's all pre-compiled so you can just require it or load it with a script tag |
| 20:44 | brainproxy | Sgeo: my Cont impl is working |
| 20:44 | brainproxy | as is callCC |
| 20:45 | brainproxy | and there is a promises-backed variant of both |
| 20:45 | brainproxy | pCont, pCont.callCC |
| 20:45 | tomjack | brainproxy: clj, cljs, or what? |
| 20:45 | brainproxy | tomjack: vanilla javascript |
| 20:45 | bbloom | dnolen: ok, so apparently :var has gotten much more tangled up since i last attempted this… :-/ |
| 20:45 | Sgeo | brainproxy, hmm |
| 20:45 | bbloom | dnolen: my hack hack hack solution won't really work without untangling that |
| 20:45 | brainproxy | Sgeo: https://gist.github.com/michaelsbradleyjr/5655300 |
| 20:45 | brainproxy | ^ that is to be refined further in the next day or so |
| 20:46 | brainproxy | but it works as is now |
| 20:46 | brainproxy | I'm looking now to take a cue from haskell and implement most of the monads as transformers on the Identity monad |
| 20:46 | brainproxy | which will help w/ code reuse |
| 20:47 | brainproxy | Cont and pCont will thus be ContT applied to Identity and pIdentity, respectively |
| 20:48 | tomjack | hah 'pIdentity' I love it |
| 20:49 | brainproxy | tomjack: the idea is that the p.. variants are "promises backed", so each step in a monadic computation involves a step across the event loop |
| 20:49 | brainproxy | whereas the non p.. are synchronous |
| 20:50 | tomjack | I usually call it 'Deref' or 'Future' or something which obscures its similarity to Identity |
| 20:50 | Sgeo | brainproxy, have you had any exposure to lenses? |
| 20:50 | brainproxy | Sgeo: just a little, I need to study delimited conts a bit more |
| 20:51 | brainproxy | I'm fairly certain I can build a reactive layer and lenses layer using shift/reset |
| 20:51 | tomjack | but pIdentity is kind of weird, huh, it's an applicative from a monad by baking in a deep join? |
| 20:51 | Sgeo | brainproxy, on the topic of delimited conts, have you seen the work by Oleg stating that undelimited conts are bad? |
| 20:51 | brainproxy | Sgeo: yep |
| 20:51 | tomjack | or is your pIdentity a monad which violates the laws :) |
| 20:52 | brainproxy | tomjack: I think it will not violate them |
| 20:52 | brainproxy | but the next day or so will tell |
| 20:52 | brainproxy | the monad laws are passing fine for State, pstate, Cont, pCont |
| 20:53 | brainproxy | tomjack: see for example https://github.com/michaelsbradleyjr/jonas/blob/master/spec/jonas.spec.js#L453 |
| 20:54 | tomjack | where's pIdentity? |
| 20:54 | brainproxy | haven't written it yet |
| 20:54 | brainproxy | :p |
| 20:54 | brainproxy | i'm doing some refactoring |
| 20:55 | brainproxy | right now I just have some monads in p and non-p flavors |
| 20:55 | brainproxy | need to move to transformers that use p and non-p identity |
| 20:55 | brehaut | brainproxy: we need to know when you have P and NP being equivalent |
| 20:55 | brainproxy | brehaut: different p and np |
| 20:55 | brainproxy | :D |
| 20:58 | ohpauleez | Is there a way to reflect on the nREPL server? |
| 20:58 | ohpauleez | to probe it for its middleware or commands it responds to? |
| 20:59 | Morgawr | guys.. what's the fundamental difference between apply and reduce? I mean, I get that apply is called on a list of parameters + a collection and reduce is called on val + collection (or just a collection) but I don't get the fundamental difference |
| 21:00 | gfredericks | welp |
| 21:00 | gfredericks | this came up a couple days ago |
| 21:00 | amalloy | &(reduce (partial list '+) [1 2 3 4 5]) |
| 21:00 | lazybot | ⇒ (+ (+ (+ (+ 1 2) 3) 4) 5) |
| 21:00 | amalloy | &(apply (partial list '+) [1 2 3 4 5]) |
| 21:00 | lazybot | ⇒ (+ 1 2 3 4 5) |
| 21:00 | ohpauleez | Morgawr: Apply takes a sequence of items (like a vector, seq, or list) and calls the function as if those args were passed into it |
| 21:00 | ohpauleez | it's used a lot with functions that take varargs |
| 21:01 | ohpauleez | reduce is used to build values up, or reduce them down |
| 21:01 | Morgawr | I see, thanks, that actually makes sense |
| 21:01 | ohpauleez | You see reduce a lot to build up a new map or vector, or to extract a single result (like reducing addition) |
| 21:02 | gfredericks | (apply foo coll) vs (reduce foo coll) -- in the former foo is called one, in the latter many times |
| 21:02 | gfredericks | in the former it's called with many args; in the latter with 2 |
| 21:02 | ohpauleez | &(reduce conj [] '(1 2 3 4 5)) |
| 21:02 | lazybot | ⇒ [1 2 3 4 5] |
| 21:03 | Sgeo | &(apply conj '(1 2 3 4 5)) |
| 21:03 | lazybot | java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection |
| 21:03 | Sgeo | That... wasn't quite the error I was hoping for |
| 21:03 | Morgawr | so, I should be using apply when dealing with a function that takes all the parameteres from the collection, and reduce when I want to call the function "iteratively" on pairs of parameters? |
| 21:03 | ohpauleez | &(apply conj [] '(1 2 3 4 5)) |
| 21:03 | lazybot | ⇒ [1 2 3 4 5] |
| 21:04 | ohpauleez | (shhhh it works because of conj magic) |
| 21:04 | gfredericks | Morgawr: not really on pairs -- with reduce, the first argument is going to be the return value of the last call |
| 21:04 | livingston | I know in some variants of lisp reduce + is far faster than apply + especially for long lists |
| 21:05 | Morgawr | I see, it makes sense now, thanks |
| 21:05 | Sgeo | &(reduce + [1 2 3]) is the same as (+ (+ 1 2) 3) I ... think |
| 21:05 | lazybot | ⇒ 6 |
| 21:05 | amalloy | livingston: in clojure i think it's quite likely that apply + is faster |
| 21:05 | amalloy | well |
| 21:05 | ohpauleez | &(reduce (fn [[accum new-value]] (str accum " :: " new)) "START" ["one" "two" "END"]) |
| 21:05 | lazybot | java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: new in this context |
| 21:05 | ohpauleez | &(reduce (fn [[accum new-value]] (str accum " :: " new-value)) "START" ["one" "two" "END"]) |
| 21:05 | lazybot | clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: sandbox10042$eval13881$fn |
| 21:05 | ohpauleez | womp |
| 21:06 | ohpauleez | Also, that's a bad example haha |
| 21:06 | amalloy | hm. no, that's not true. i spoke hastily |
| 21:06 | gfredericks | coming up with good examples for this is hard |
| 21:06 | amalloy | that's why i just use my (partial list '+) example |
| 21:06 | amalloy | i think it's a pretty good visualization of the alternatives |
| 21:06 | tomjack | brainproxy: looks pretty cool, with mori+wisp+that would be interesting |
| 21:06 | ohpauleez | amalloy: At one point in Clojure's history, apply was faster |
| 21:06 | brainproxy | tomjack: wisp? |
| 21:06 | ohpauleez | I'm not sure if it's still the case |
| 21:06 | gfredericks | (reduce #(hash-map :first %1 :second %2) [1 2 3 4]) |
| 21:06 | gfredericks | ,(reduce #(hash-map :first %1 :second %2) [1 2 3 4]) |
| 21:06 | clojurebot | {:first {:first {:first 1, :second 2}, :second 3}, :second 4} |
| 21:06 | brainproxy | tomjack: oh right |
| 21:07 | amalloy | ohpauleez: are you sure? i think apply has always just delegated to reduce |
| 21:07 | tomjack | but only if I can't convince someone to switch from js to cljs, which happens to be true :) |
| 21:07 | brainproxy | tomjack: I'm trying to get the core parts to a place where I can write a really killer mDo |
| 21:07 | livingston | yeah usually the apply form has more list foolery to do and ends up using the variadic (sp?) form of the function - the compiler can't be much help there, but with + for example you get the more effecient two argument form |
| 21:07 | amalloy | for sure, (+ a b c d e) is faster than (reduce + [a b c d e]), because it inlines well, but using apply loses that |
| 21:08 | brainproxy | tomjack: I dont' have macros, but by dogfooding some "power tools" within the lib, I can a very slick monadic "do" like thing working, I'm fairly confident |
| 21:08 | brainproxy | can *get a... |
| 21:08 | Sgeo | Monadic do in Javascript? |
| 21:08 | Sgeo | If it looks nice, that would make me happy. |
| 21:08 | brainproxy | Sgeo: yes, basically |
| 21:08 | brainproxy | it will look okay |
| 21:09 | brainproxy | not "make you dance for joy" quality, but pretty decent |
| 21:09 | Sgeo | oh |
| 21:10 | brainproxy | and for the "left-hand side" stuff, a coworker is writing a parser so can you use clojure-standard destructuring syntax |
| 21:11 | brainproxy | "{y z :as m}", function (x) { mReturn { y: 7, z: "eight" } } |
| 21:12 | brainproxy | that will 'just work', in the context of a "program" you pass to say pState.mDo |
| 21:12 | amalloy | that must require eval, right brainproxy? |
| 21:12 | brainproxy | amalloy: nope, zero use of eval |
| 21:13 | brainproxy | the initial version is compiled using PEG.js; to be replaced in the near-ish future by a parser that's built up using the jonas API itself |
| 21:13 | brainproxy | i mean initial version of the destructuring syntax parser |
| 21:14 | brainproxy | the "problem" with the PEG.js version is that it consists of a *lot* of braindead js code |
| 21:14 | brainproxy | no eval, but bloats the lib |
| 21:15 | brainproxy | above I should have `... return mReturn ...` |
| 21:15 | brainproxy | forgot the js return |
| 21:15 | amalloy | and also parens around {y:7,z:"eight"}, i imagine |
| 21:16 | brainproxy | amalloy: lolz, yep |
| 21:16 | brainproxy | typed it out too quickly in irc |
| 21:18 | brainproxy | the thing that will actually make jonas particularly wortwhile is combining it with mori |
| 21:18 | brainproxy | tomjack is right about that |
| 21:21 | brainproxy | I would love to use clojurescript on the web client side of things, but for various reasons that's not going to happen... so... I'm aiming to create something that will make dev'ing highly concurrent vanilla js programs more pleasant |
| 21:30 | tomjack | brainproxy: yeah, looks very cool |
| 21:33 | brainproxy | tomjack: thanks, lots to do, hopefully in the very near future it will be mostly useable with some examples, etc. |
| 21:43 | tomjack | hmm, async test https://www.refheap.com/b83fa0862b53ae255094a92ee |
| 21:45 | tomjack | with an interface like this, even with a good bound-fn in cljs, users will have to remember to use it in order for their tests not to break |
| 21:45 | tomjack | even if they don't use dynamic vars in their async code at all |
| 21:50 | tomjack | new project: rewrite clojure.test |
| 21:51 | tomjack | ..though if you stick to core.async you won't have to remember, just if you do a manual setTimeout or drop a fn into angular or something |
| 21:54 | livingston | I'm trying to use friend-oauth2 with google, and it shows the "allow access" button and takes me to the call back page which bounces me to auth page over and over anyone seen anything like that before? |
| 21:55 | livingston | it's like friend doesn't recognize the authentication |
| 22:14 | tshauck | Hi, how could I put multiple requires into one statement in a file... I keep getting an error that lists inside prefix names must not contain periods |
| 22:14 | gfredericks | (:require [foo.bar :as baz] [bang.bazoozle :as flamboyant]) |
| 22:16 | gfredericks | usually not enough or too many square brackets is what trips people up |
| 22:16 | tshauck | gfredericks: cool, thanks, I was doing (:require [[foo.bar :as bar][bang.boo :as boo]]) so ya... too many |
| 22:29 | livingston | anyone know friend / friend-oath2? I seem to get the callback after authenticating but then my server (presumably friend) kicks the request back out with a 302? right back to reauthenticate |
| 22:37 | bbloom | hmmmm how exactly do tagged literals & metadata interact? i wonder... |
| 22:39 | bbloom | (meta (binding [*data-readers* {'foo identity}] (read-string "^:bar #foo []"))) |
| 22:39 | tomjack | they interact as you'd expect I think |
| 22:39 | bbloom | ,(meta (binding [*data-readers* {'foo identity}] (read-string "^:bar #foo []"))) |
| 22:39 | clojurebot | {:bar true} |
| 22:39 | bbloom | ,(meta (binding [*data-readers* {'foo identity}] (read-string "^:bar #foo 123"))) |
| 22:39 | clojurebot | #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Metadata can only be applied to IMetas> |
| 22:39 | tomjack | oh, I was thinking of ##foo bar |
| 22:39 | tomjack | er, ##foo bar baz |
| 22:39 | bbloom | ,(meta (binding [*data-readers* {'foo identity}] (read-string "#foo ^:bar 123"))) |
| 22:39 | clojurebot | #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Metadata can only be applied to IMetas> |
| 22:39 | bbloom | ,(meta (binding [*data-readers* {'foo identity}] (read-string "#foo ^:bar []"))) |
| 22:39 | clojurebot | {:bar true} |
| 22:39 | bbloom | seems to work either way |
| 22:40 | tomjack | with identity, yeah |
| 22:41 | bbloom | oh yeah… hmm |
| 22:41 | tomjack | db/fn for example will likely destroy inner meta, and maybe explode on outer meta ? |
| 22:42 | bbloom | ,(meta (let [discard #(with-meta % nil)] (binding [*data-readers* {'foo discard}] (read-string "#foo ^:baz []")))) |
| 22:42 | clojurebot | nil |
| 22:42 | bbloom | ,(meta (let [discard #(with-meta % nil)] (binding [*data-readers* {'foo discard}] (read-string "^:bar #foo []")))) |
| 22:42 | clojurebot | {:bar true} |
| 22:42 | bbloom | neat. |
| 22:46 | tomjack | cemerick: https://github.com/tomjack/clojurescript.test/compare/draft-async |
| 22:46 | tomjack | bbloom: so you're stuck on that sub-issue? |
| 22:46 | cemerick | tomjack: I'm hyper-occupied; maybe open an issue or start a thread on the cljs list? |
| 22:47 | bbloom | tomjack: just don't have the mental capacity today |
| 22:47 | cemerick | tomjack: thanks, though, the URL sounds interesting :-) |
| 22:47 | bbloom | naming help please: what's the opposite of a "composite" datatype in clojure? my best right now is "scalar", since "atomic" is so overloaded. but it seems to me like the opposite of "scalar" is "vector" which is also overloaded…. |
| 22:47 | tomjack | cemerick: no prob, just thought you'd be interested. I'll post maybe later, needs more thought/work |
| 22:47 | bbloom | either way, if you had {:foo :scalar} and {:foo :vector}, what would :foo be better as? |
| 22:47 | bbloom | :type-type :-) |
| 22:48 | bbloom | or rather {:foo :composite} |
| 22:48 | gfredericks | bbloom: I've heard of scalar used to mean this quite a lot |
| 22:49 | bbloom | gfredericks: ok cool. so then do you also have a name for the "enum" so to speak? |
| 22:49 | gfredericks | though I guess now that I think about math vectors it doesn't really capture the same concept :/ |
| 22:49 | gfredericks | in linear algebra scalars are not just components of vectors but quantities by which you can "scale" them |
| 22:50 | gfredericks | which makes me like atoms a lot more but it is too overloaded like you say |
| 22:50 | bbloom | yeah, my linear algebra was at one point pretty good, hence the discomfort with the name collision |
| 22:50 | bbloom | i'm much more concerned with what you would call the set #{:scalar :composite} |
| 22:50 | bbloom | b/c i have no idea lol |
| 22:51 | gfredericks | the universe? |
| 22:51 | bbloom | no, not the set of objects whos types are in the set of scalars and composites |
| 22:51 | bbloom | the literal set of :scalar and :composite, haha |
| 22:51 | bbloom | classic indirection error ;-) |
| 22:54 | TimMc | Oh, it is clearly a :composite. |
| 22:54 | TimMc | Duh. |
| 22:55 | bbloom | enum SomethingHere { SCALAR = 1, COMPOSITE = 2 }; // help me :-) |
| 22:55 | tomjack | structure? |
| 22:56 | bbloom | {:structure :scalar …} and {:structure :composite …} hmm maybe |
| 22:56 | gfredericks | type categories? |
| 22:56 | tomjack | (is (false? (structure? scalar))) (is (true? (structure? composite))) |
| 22:56 | gfredericks | there's some meta thing going on here is there not? |
| 22:57 | bbloom | if you called them "categories" then you'd have the same problem when you chose another dimension by which to partition. really it's the name for one category of categories |
| 22:58 | bbloom | tomjack wins for now, since my asking this question is really just because i am avoiding the work of actually writing code, but let me know if anybody has any better ideas :-) |
| 22:59 | tomjack | or the complement, simple? |
| 22:59 | tomjack | is it basically one/many or no? |
| 23:08 | cmajor71 | bbloom: {:structure :discrete …} and {:structure :composite …} ? |
| 23:09 | bbloom | cmajor71: hmm maybe |
| 23:09 | TimMc | &(apply str "structure-" (repeatedly 4 #(rand-int 10))) ;; bbloom |
| 23:09 | lazybot | ⇒ "structure-4983" |
| 23:10 | tomjack | is a vector not discrete? |
| 23:11 | bbloom | i think i'm gonna get around the problem by cheating: I only really need to know :list, :vector, :map, :set, or not one of those… so nil is a perfectly fine value for :composite :-P |
| 23:12 | cmajor71 | tomjack: I was going from discrete in "individual" sense |
| 23:13 | bbloom | words: there are simultaneously too many and too few of them. |
| 23:13 | gfredericks | also characters? |
| 23:17 | tomjack | should core.async/{put!,take!} in cljs automatically bound-fn the handler? |
| 23:17 | tomjack | hmm, well, the clojure versions don't, so I guess not.. |
| 23:18 | TimMc | bbloom: Atomicity |
| 23:19 | TimMc | HowManyPrimitivesThisThingCanBeMadeOf |
| 23:19 | bbloom | ....Factory |
| 23:19 | gfredericks | if you want to make it look enterprisey, camel-case it |
| 23:20 | bbloom | ThatIsWhyIWriteAllMyContractsLikeThisAndSimplyIncreaseMyRates |
| 23:20 | gfredericks | it's like speaking in a particular accent |
| 23:21 | TimMc | ⟜-hipsters-use-kebab-case- |
| 23:31 | sinistersnare | might sound stupid, but how do i run a clojure file from the command line? i have this code http://bpaste.net/show/IgFjcHOzkKWt3R72Kx6Y/ how do i run it from the command line? |
| 23:35 | amalloy | $google clojure shebang |
| 23:35 | lazybot | [Clojure Programming/Tutorials and Tips - Wikibooks, open books for ...] http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Tutorials_and_Tips |
| 23:35 | n_b | sinistersnare: Does `clj filename.clj` not work? |
| 23:36 | bbloom | sinistersnare: if you don't need a shell script for some other reason, you're better off opening `lein repl` and using load-file or whatever keyboard shortcut your editor provides for that :-) |
| 23:37 | sinistersnare | i dont think a shebang works in windows? and clj is not recognized as a command |
| 23:37 | sinistersnare | i have the clojure folder on my path |
| 23:37 | sinistersnare | how do i install that command? |
| 23:37 | bbloom | sinistersnare: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen |
| 23:38 | sinistersnare | i use leiningen, but i want to try out ahead of time compilation, not through an interpreter |
| 23:38 | bbloom | lein can produce a jar for you with a main function that you can run with the java -jar command |
| 23:39 | sinistersnare | but what if i dont have a main funtion? like with the code i put up |
| 23:40 | bbloom | sinistersnare: wrap lins 30 to 39 in a main fn |
| 23:40 | sinistersnare | bbloom: ok |
| 23:40 | bbloom | see the lein docs for how that works |
| 23:41 | sinistersnare | bbloom: i know indentation is bad, but this? http://bpaste.net/show/y1vrG8RAvqy1bTsTma3z/ ok ill check the docs |
