#clojure – 2013-05-22

2013-05-22

00:00	muhoo	friend does both
00:01	muhoo	it also provides a common framework for authorization/authentication using passwords, openid, and oauth
00:02	muhoo	if i want to provide one of those annoying race-car screens with a million logos offering different ways to log in, i can't think of a manageable way to do that without friend.
00:03	tomoj	why not have reducers implement conj?
00:03	tomoj	some people would abuse it, but.. it would be handy
00:04	tomoj	oh
00:04	tomoj	they can't implement the rest of it
00:04	tomoj	I guess you can just write a conj reducer
00:04	tomoj	or maybe (r/cat [x] coll) ?
00:05	tomoj	muhoo: I think ddellacosta has an example
00:09	tomoj	it would also be cool I think to define a sorted-kv reducer which supports conj
00:09	tomoj	wish you could add one or two more readers too
00:11	amalloy	yeah, i think it has to be cat [x], tomoj
00:11	amalloy	certainly you can't implement IPersistentCollection
00:11	tomoj	right
00:12	tomoj	I remember again rich saying "maybe all we need is conj!"
00:12	tomoj	except I'm equivocating I think
00:12	tomoj	(that's not a direct quote)
00:12	muhoo	tomoj: his is for fb and github, yes, i'm looking at it (and modding it)
00:13	muhoo	tomoj: twitter uses oauth1 tho.
00:13	tomoj	oh, I misremembered twitter being in there
00:15	muhoo	i've done this before, created a workflow for google apps which used a modified openid. it was not fun tho.
00:17	tomoj	:)
00:17	muhoo	i am going to write a library to do this, and i'm going to call it "bird flu"
00:18	sinistersnare	noob to clojure: if noir is deprecated, what can be used that is just as simple?
00:19	muhoo	sinistersnare: there's libnoir. and someone created an attempt at a batteries-included thing to replace noir, but i forget what it's called
00:19	sinistersnare	muhoo: people say compojure, but when i look at that, it seems a lot more complicated than noir
00:19	egghead	sinistersnare: compojure is just routing
00:19	egghead	but it's actually the routing lib that noir used
00:20	muhoo	i just write directly to compojure
00:20	egghead	http://www.luminusweb.net/ is the 'batteries included' one but I agree about just using compojure :3
00:21	sinistersnare	muhoo: i understand, but it seems scary D:
00:21	sinistersnare	egghead: let me look into that, thanks
00:21	muhoo	sinistersnare: luminus, i think was its name
00:21	muhoo	pedestal too
00:21	muhoo	hell, i don't remember
00:21	egghead	pedestal, ya
00:21	muhoo	sinistersnare: it's not scary. it's just functions :-)
00:22	egghead	that one is all kinds of involved tho
00:22	egghead	but at least it's cljs :)
00:22	brehaut	egghead: strangely enough, compojure doesnt do the actual routing either :P
00:22	muhoo	i had a bad experience that made me suspicious of any big framework
00:22	brehaut	thats clout
00:22	sinistersnare	i come from python/java and i really wanna get into FP.
00:23	muhoo	sinistersnare: then learn ring, and how compojure is built on ring. it'll take you longer, but ring is beautifully functional
00:23	egghead	^
00:23	sinistersnare	that may take a while, but thanks!
00:23	sinistersnare	good to know
00:23	brehaut	sinistersnare: http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/ring_introduction
00:23	sinistersnare	brehaut: thanks!
00:23	brehaut	its a little out of date on specific versions, but it covers all the basics
00:23	sinistersnare	i like how thats your thing
00:24	brehaut	yeah sorry to toot my own horn
00:24	sinistersnare	its fine, i dont mind, its a good read
00:25	brehaut	biggest change id make if i edited it, is my comment about preferring moustache for routing. ive changed my mind and prefer compojure
00:25	sinistersnare	brehaut: ok, ill remember that
00:25	sinistersnare	i dont know why, but i convinced my girlfriend to learn programming, and my time is being taken up on that
00:26	sinistersnare	so ill just have all of these tabs ssaved
00:26	muhoo	brehaut: could you edit it and add that note?
00:26	brehaut	muhoo: i guess i should
00:26	brehaut	bit of a pain though; i broke my metaweblog post editing endpoint :/
00:27	sinistersnare	:(
00:27	brehaut	obviously i should fix both
00:28	brehaut	just remember, friends dont let friends do xml-rpc
00:28	muhoo	something tells me that your blog is backed by a db somewhere
00:28	brehaut	muhoo: it is indeed
00:28	muhoo	i've brute forced stuff like that by using an sql console
00:28	muhoo	"just gimmme the damn data!"
00:28	brehaut	muhoo: lol
00:28	brehaut	pgadmin to the rescue
00:30	brehaut	what could go wrong
00:31	muhoo	i've never had a problem with that
00:31	muhoo	watch your escaping tho
00:31	brehaut	i accidentally destroyed all my code formating last time i edited something in pgadmin
00:32	brehaut	(which lets me sidestep the escaping problem)
00:32	muhoo	i'd dump the string with a psql select, edit it in $EDITOR, then slap quotes around it and put it in an update statement. but i am a violent man sometimes.
00:33	muhoo	did that in wordpress once when a bunch of links went stale. just wrote one SQL statement that changed them to the new location. much easier than clicking around in WP for an hour changing a bunch of links one by one
00:34	brehaut	hah
00:34	brehaut	you are brave to tackle the wordpress schema imo
00:34	muhoo	i got lucky. the links were all in one field, and it had nothing else in it, IIRC
00:34	brehaut	phew
00:36	muhoo	this was like 2007 tho. maybe it's gotten worse.
00:36	bairui	hand-editing sql updates against a hostile schema with backups isn't bravery but rather prudence :p
00:36	muhoo	come on guys, it's just SQL :-P
00:36	brehaut	i have been lucky enough to not have used wordpress in years
00:37	muhoo	how could anyone writing in clojure be scared of SQL
00:37	brehaut	lol
00:37	muhoo	my blog is still in wordpress. i have no need to change. blogging peaked and mostly ended in 2010, AFAICT
00:38	muhoo	i think my last blog entry was early 2011 or something
00:38	brehaut	wait, blogging in general, or just for you?
00:39	muhoo	in general, AFAICT. it was a steep drop-off after 2010. i blame twitter and FB
00:39	brehaut	muhoo: updated as requested
00:39	muhoo	brehaut: thanks!
00:40	brehaut	i do need to find time to update all the code samples to use modern clojure and lib versions
00:40	muhoo	second-order issue :-)
00:40	brehaut	heh
00:40	brehaut	i like to think that at least it states the dependancies explicitly, so its not a surprise to anyone
00:41	muhoo	by the way, thank you for that particular entry. it helped me get started with clojure web stuff last year.
00:41	brehaut	no problem, glad it helped
00:46	bairui	sql isn't scary; live updates against a production schema without backups is. for a personal blog, the cost is negligible; for systems that are attached to your paycheck... better not.
01:01	avishai	hi
01:01	avishai	a question about agent error-handlers
01:01	avishai	suppose i want to restart the agent to a sane state
01:01	avishai	restart-agent isn't allowed in error-handlers
01:02	avishai	so i have to either queue that action to some supervisor
01:02	avishai	or instead of restarting (send a (fn [_] new-state))
01:03	avishai	send doesn't :clear-actions
01:03	avishai	and having a supervisor feels unclean
01:15	amalloy	avishai: if your error-handler, which is called immediately from the agent, is going to unconditionally restart it immediately, why not just send the agent an action that never causes an error state? (defn send-and-fix [agent f reset-value & args] (send agent #(try (apply f % args) (catch Throwable t reset-value))))
01:16	amalloy	i don't recommend automatically restarting agents anyway, but if you were going to then you might as well just force them to never enter an error state
01:19	avishai	yes, i guess a wrapper function would be an easy solution
01:21	avishai	btw, how can i print clojure data structures in reader format?
01:22	brehaut	,(prn {:a [1 2 "three"]})
01:22	clojurebot	{:a [1 2 "three"]}\n
01:26	avishai	brehaut, 10x!
01:27	avishai	amalloy, what is the common use case for error handlers?
01:27	avishai	in many cases restart is necessary to preserve linearity
02:22	ddellacosta	how do I get the metadata associated with a namespace? Specifically trying to figure out the version of a lib in the repl.
02:24	ddellacosta	Hmm, this gives me author and doc: (meta (ns-name 'clojure.core.cache))
02:25	tomoj	it shouldn't..
02:25	ddellacosta	I guess I don't have version info there
02:25	ddellacosta	no?
02:25	clojurebot	no is tufflax: there was a question somewhere in there, the answer
02:25	ddellacosta	haha
02:25	tomoj	&(meta (ns-name 'clojure.core))
02:25	lazybot	⇒ nil
02:25	tomoj	&(meta (find-ns 'clojure.core))
02:25	lazybot	⇒ {:doc "Fundamental library of the Clojure language"}
02:25	ddellacosta	woah
02:25	tomoj	&(class (ns-name 'clojure.core))
02:25	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.Symbol
02:25	ddellacosta	&(meta (ns-name 'clojure.core.cache))
02:25	lazybot	java.lang.Exception: No namespace: clojure.core.cache found
02:25	ddellacosta	d'oh
02:26	ddellacosta	Can I use in this?
02:26	ddellacosta	&(use 'clojure.core.cache)
02:26	lazybot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/core/cache__init.class or clojure/core/cache.clj on classpath:
02:26	ddellacosta	yep
02:26	ro_st	yogthos\|away: thanks for the speedy lib-noir update :-)
02:26	ddellacosta	anyways, I wonder what version of core.cache I'm using.
02:26	tomoj	oh, I see
02:26	ddellacosta	there's probably more productive ways to figure it out.
02:26	ddellacosta	heh
02:26	tomoj	interesting
02:27	tomoj	really weird
02:27	tomoj	don't do that
02:27	tomoj	:)
02:27	ddellacosta	hahaha
02:28	tomoj	,(ns ^{:doc "foo"} foo)
02:28	clojurebot	nil
02:28	tomoj	,(meta (ns-name 'foo))
02:28	clojurebot	nil
02:28	amalloy	ddellacosta: yeah, namespaces have no idea what their version is, except in the unlikely case someone goes to the trouble of updating the ns form for every release
02:28	amalloy	instead, lein deps :tree shows you all the dependencies and versions you have, and why
02:28	tomoj	well, I dunno what's goin on with clojurebot
02:28	ddellacosta	amalloy: yeah, I think I remember seeing it somewhere so I ended up assuming it was consistent in the metadata
02:28	tomoj	but it looks like sometimes the metadata is left on the name of the ns
02:29	ddellacosta	tomoj: well, I'll stop trying to break it. heh
02:29	tomoj	but it might disappear if someone alter-meta!'s..
02:29	ddellacosta	haha
02:29	tomoj	not that people tend to do that
02:29	tomoj	or maybe clojure.core is just a special case
02:29	tomoj	in any case, look for ns metadata on the ns, not its name
02:30	ddellacosta	yeah, I mean, really I'm just trying to debug clojure.core.cache, and that led me to trying to pull the source, which led me to try to figure out what version I'm running, which led me to this...
02:30	tomoj	ah!
02:30	amalloy	tomoj: huh? in what cases is there metadata on the symbol naming a namespace?
02:30	ddellacosta	but I think I'll just explicitly put it in my project.clj and shortcut the whole thing
02:31	tomoj	https://www.refheap.com/paste/ef09e6fc74ab7122b1c59323f
02:31	ddellacosta	amalloy: this works for me in the repl: (meta (ns-name 'clojure.core.cache))
02:31	ddellacosta	it gives me {:author "Fogus", :doc "A caching library for Clojure."}
02:32	tomoj	that's just a coincidence, ignore it :)
02:32	amalloy	&(doc ns-name)
02:32	lazybot	⇒ "([ns]); Returns the name of the namespace, a symbol."
02:32	amalloy	ns-name on a symbol shouldn't even work at all, should it?
02:32	tomoj	well it calls the-ns on whatever you pass it
02:32	tomoj	presumably to make that work
02:33	amalloy	the-ns, or find-ns?
02:33	tomoj	the-ns
02:33	amalloy	&(doc the-ns)
02:33	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! the-ns is bad!
02:33	amalloy	,(doc the-ns)
02:33	clojurebot	"([x]); If passed a namespace, returns it. Else, when passed a symbol, returns the namespace named by it, throwing an exception if not found."
02:33	tomoj	,(ns-name 'foo)
02:33	clojurebot	foo
02:33	tomoj	er
02:33	tomoj	,(ns-name 'frobniz)
02:33	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: No namespace: frobniz found>
02:33	tomoj	,(ns-name 'clojure.core)
02:33	clojurebot	clojure.core
02:34	amalloy	,(the-ns clojure.core)
02:34	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
02:34	amalloy	huh. somehow i remembered the-ns being a macro
02:34	ddellacosta	naw, it's pretty simple isn't it, never looked at it before
03:28	dabd	The following function causes a stack overflow. https://gist.github.com/dabd/5625808. Perhaps a problem in the implementation of 'split-with'?
03:30	tomoj	no, it's building up so many concats
03:31	tomoj	if you replace the concat with (into (vec left) (cons new-val right)) to make it eager, it will work
03:31	tomoj	not that that is a very good implementation
03:31	dabd	yes i just found the problem is wih concat which builds lazy seqs
03:32	tomoj	what are you trying to do? looks like just a sort?
03:32	dabd	similar problem here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9814892/insertion-sort-in-clojure-throws-stackoverflow-error
03:33	tomoj	oh just for fun?
03:33	dabd	yes i should do a sort-by instead
03:55	wei_	does anyone have an example of a friend facebook example with a splash page? the given example goes straight to the facebook auth page
03:55	callen	wei_: this is #clojure not #facebook_support
03:56	callen	wei_: oh you mean the library Friend
03:56	ddellacosta	wei: are you talking about setting up friend to use with facebook authentication?
03:56	ddellacosta	wei_: check this out. https://github.com/ddellacosta/friend-oauth2-examples
03:56	callen	ddellacosta: neat.
03:57	ddellacosta	wei_: you'll need to use my friend-oauth2 lib, and I really really need to push the csrf stuff to production...
03:57	ddellacosta	callen: thanks.
03:57	ddellacosta	damn, I should do that right now while I'm thinking of it
03:58	callen	ddellacosta: I'm considering adding facebook auth to a project of mine but find Friend overbearing
03:58	callen	#first_world_problems :(
03:58	wei_	thanks! i've been using your library. i was wondering how to extend the example to route unauthorized users to a page with the facebook login button, instead of directly to the auth dialog
03:58	ddellacosta	callen: I mean, I like it, but I can understand how you would think that. But, I come from Rails land, so it's light for me…haha
03:59	ddellacosta	wei_: oh, that shouldn't be too hard--that's baked in Friend functionality, I think you should just be able to reset the login link
03:59	ddellacosta	um, one sec
03:59	wei_	yep!
04:00	tomoj	it looks like it is not safe to bind Compiler/LOCAL_ENV to a map with non-LocalBinding values
04:00	tomoj	during macroexpand
04:00	tomoj	:(
04:00	ddellacosta	where the heck is that
04:00	ddellacosta	ah, here you go
04:00	ddellacosta	wei_: check this line out: https://github.com/cemerick/friend/blob/master/src/cemerick/friend.clj#L173
04:01	ddellacosta	wei_: friend lets you pass in a number of configuration arguments when you set up your workflow in the main handler
04:02	ddellacosta	wei_: login-uri is one of those. You should be able to just reset that to any path of your choosing. But, if you need more complex behavior you can pass in a function to override default-unauthenticated-handler.
04:05	callen	ddellacosta: the workflow nonsense is part of my problem.
04:05	ddellacosta	callen: what don't you like about it?
04:05	wei_	would I still use oauth2/workflow? I added the :login-uri "uri" but it's not redirecting
04:05	callen	ddellacosta: I come from Django and Flask, Friend doesn't have a good overhead/value ratio.
04:06	ddellacosta	wei_: hmm, hopefully I'm not wiping that config, it should work as is though
04:07	ddellacosta	callen: ah, yeah, I'm less familiar with those so I can't compare. I mean, I was looking for something like Rails's devise gem when I first started working with it, and it was the closest thing out there
04:07	ddellacosta	callen: it took me a bit of time to wrap my head around, but I like it now. But that may because I spent so much time wrapping my head around it to write the oauth2 lib. Stockholm syndrome perhaps. ha
04:08	amalloy	tomoj: IMO even if it worked, it would be disastrously unsafe to bind Compiler/LOCAL_ENV to anything at all
04:09	tomoj	I don't understand Compiler much at all
04:09	wei_	ddellacosta, btw your library saved the day during my last hackathon, got facebook auth working quickly
04:09	ddellacosta	wei_: sweet! Super happy to hear that someone is using it.
04:09	wei_	but i don't think i understand it fully so I'm paying the price now when I'm trying to change something like the landing page, haha
04:09	tomoj	I've doven in and understood seemingl many small parts of it but still don't understand it at all..
04:10	tomoj	clojure.tools.macro pretty much does what I'm looking for I think
04:10	tomoj	.. just reimplement macroexpansion
04:10	ddellacosta	wei_: haha…the code be nicer in any case, so that doesn't help if you are trying to grok it. Anyways, I've got a branch I've been waiting to push with CSRF protection baked in, I may try and push that in the next day or so.
04:10	wei_	unfortunately :login-uri is not having an effect, should I change unauthenticated-handler too?
04:11	tomoj	ddellacosta: btw, thanks, for fb example was extremely helpful to me
04:11	ddellacosta	wei_: still trying to find the answer to that question…worrying I'm killing it. Sorry, gimme one sec.
04:11	tomoj	any plans to just make it into a little library? :)
04:11	ddellacosta	tomoj: great! you're very welcome.
04:11	ddellacosta	tomoj: huh, do you think that'd be useful? I guess it could be huh?
04:11	tomoj	I pretty much did
04:12	ddellacosta	nice. haha
04:12	tomoj	but felt uncomfortable doing it since I copied so much from you
04:12	tomoj	so uh I hope the license on that is open
04:12	ddellacosta	meh, that's open-source so no worries.
04:12	ddellacosta	yeah, MIT I believe, so pretty permissive.
04:12	ddellacosta	no, that's totally the intent.
04:12	tomoj	can I EPL mine? I hate licenses
04:12	tomoj	or if you release one I won't have to
04:12	tomoj	:)
04:13	ddellacosta	sure, go for it!
04:13	ddellacosta	ah, yeah, I have it under MIT.
04:13	ddellacosta	I have no idea what the deal is with changing the license from a legalistic point of view, but I certainly have no problem if you do that personally.
04:14	tomoj	I guess it would be unwise to just blindly follow the masses and choose EPL
04:14	ddellacosta	wei_: sorry, still looking through my code to figure out what the deal is with login-uri
04:14	tomoj	I don't know anything about it
04:14	ddellacosta	heh
04:14	tomoj	I can't afford to hire a lawyer to tell me which to pick for my stupid little project..
04:14	wei_	ddellacosta: thanks for the help
04:15	ddellacosta	I read something on the clojure list recently that laid out the differences pretty well
04:15	ddellacosta	but basically, MIT is super permissive
04:15	ddellacosta	and EPL gives the author more rights I think
04:15	ddellacosta	= my expert legal analysis
04:16	ddellacosta	wei_: ah, okay, so it really shouldn't have anything to do with my lib
04:16	ddellacosta	wei_: just make sure you are passing it into friend/authenticate
04:17	ddellacosta	wei_: if you want to send me a gist or something I can take a look at how you're defining it and try to help
04:18	tomoj	I looked and realized I never finished my library extraction
04:18	tomoj	because I already had something working in friend-less vanilla ring
04:18	tomoj	callen: :D
04:19	SegFaultAX	Be extremely careful about taking advice on software licensing. Most people have an inaccurate, incomplete, or incorrect understanding of software licenses.
04:19	tomoj	but I think I'll just port to 'vanilla' interceptors because ring has been awkward with what I'm doing and
04:20	tomoj	s/ and//
04:20	wei_	ddellacosta: here's my routes, it's a little long-winded https://gist.github.com/yayitswei/5626017
04:20	wei_	thanks again
04:21	ddellacosta	tomoj: I agree w/SegFaultAX re taking advice on licensing, especially mine
04:21	tomoj	I am acquainted with a software lawyer
04:21	tomoj	does 'most people' include them? :)
04:21	ddellacosta	wei_: huh, okay
04:22	SegFaultAX	tomoj: The EFF also provides channels for getting advice on this topic if it really matters.
04:22	tomoj	isn't the EFF always going to tell me to use GPL
04:22	SegFaultAX	No.
04:22	ddellacosta	wei_: you know, I may be killing login-uri, in the older lib, I apologize
04:22	tomoj	oh did I mix them up with FSF
04:22	SegFaultAX	tomoj: I doubt the FSF would either.
04:23	tomoj	how about stallman?
04:23	SegFaultAX	Hah.
04:23	SegFaultAX	He'd definitely tell you to use a proprietary license.
04:29	callen	tomoj: :)
04:30	tomoj	callen: I think I'm going to try ripping interceptors out of pedestal..
04:30	callen	tomoj: solid.
04:30	callen	tomoj: let me know how it goes.
04:31	callen	tomoj: seemed like one of the few things worth salvaging.
04:31	tomoj	I still gotta try it to learn about the rest
04:31	tomoj	clj-http also leaves me unsatisfied
04:32	tomoj	I got core.async working so that is tempting
04:32	callen	tomoj: I haven't needed interceptors because the raison d'etre is something I've avoided via small and dirty trick.
04:33	tomoj	what's the trick?
04:34	callen	tomoj: request context (across middleware) that is forced to fetch data dependencies in parallel
04:35	callen	which is hypothetically the only reason I'd want interceptors - multi-threaded request processing. Realistically, I just need to fetch data in parallel that is needed in more than one stage of request processing.
04:40	callen	tomoj: this is partly why I was so hellbent on my request context thing - enables the avoidance of worse complexities.
04:40	callen	tomoj: learned that lesson from Django and Flask.
04:43	SegFaultAX	Interceptors seem pretty complicated.
04:43	tomoj	so what I've seen in flask is you have a Pool or whatever
04:44	tomoj	which is basically what I'm doing now, I put tasks onto an executor
04:45	tomoj	in this case actually a flask app notices the output of those tasks so I just blackhole them..
04:47	tomoj	but I have a bunch of stuff just synchronous that I really don't want
04:47	SegFaultAX	I didn't follow that bit above about flask at all.
05:15	tomoj	SegFaultAX: what bit?
05:19	tomoj	now persona tells me I don't have cookies enabled in conkeror
05:34	Anderkent	So... (-> a-sorted-map rseq first key) or ((comp key first rseq) a-sorted-map)? #bikeshed-colors
05:50	tomoj	https://www.refheap.com/paste/c674e1ffbb91c5af973a423c7
05:59	kral	namaste
06:14	amalloy	Anderkent: false dichotomy. why not, for example, (key (-> m rseq first))? they all do the same thing, but this makes the "key" part of it more prominent
06:22	Anderkent	hm, yeah, that slightly better than just the threading form.
06:27	tomoj	there seems to be no way to tell that a channel is closed
06:27	tomoj	except maybe trying to put and catching an exception..
06:29	callen	tomoj: that's not true
06:29	callen	tomoj: just add a trigger callback for the channel's closing
06:29	tomoj	I'm talking about core.async, are you talking about lamina?
06:29	callen	dammit. sorry.
06:29	tomoj	no, my fault
06:30	tomoj	'channel' should probably mean at least 80% lamina for the time being :)
06:30	callen	tomoj: it's WIP, file an issue.
06:30	ddellacosta	callen and tomoj: where in the world are you guys? It seems like you're roughly on the same schedule I am, or else you are just up super late.
06:30	callen	tomoj: 4rlz. if something doesn't make sense, make a documented query.
06:30	callen	ddellacosta: It's 0323 where I am. I'm awake because I'm the goddamn Batman.
06:30	ddellacosta	haha. gotcha.
06:30	tomoj	I never can tell whether a missing feature is supposed to be missing
06:30	callen	green tea and beef stew to keep me company.
06:30	ddellacosta	mm, sounds good.
06:31	callen	tomoj: "supposed to be" is sophistry. File an issue.
06:31	callen	ddellacosta: it's golden oolong. Delicious tea.
06:31	callen	tomoj: the world needs to at least know it's a problem through the documented issue
06:31	tomoj	you think relevance/rich want to field questions in github issues?
06:31	callen	tomoj: even if they refuse to fix it.
06:31	ddellacosta	callen: ha, I'm drinking oolong cold right now. Love oolong in general.
06:31	callen	tomoj: sigh. are they doing that bullshit on JIRA too?
06:31	tomoj	no, there's no jira last I checked
06:31	callen	ddellacosta: oolong is probably my favorite. I used to be into pu-ehr big time but less so these days. Probably because the quality of tea upgraded.
06:32	ddellacosta	gotcha.
06:32	tomoj	my guess would just be that they'd rather just keep their heads down and push it out, then answer questions later
06:32	callen	tomoj: just file an issue and if you get redirected, do the appropriate copy-pasta.
06:32	callen	tomoj: urufkjdsfnkjdnjhh
06:32	callen	tomoj: what happened to fast-iterations and early feedback?
06:32	callen	tomoj: what do you think will distract them more, a polite querying issue from you?
06:32	callen	tomoj: or an angry blustery trolling from me?
06:33	callen	tomoj: file the issue...
06:33	tomoj	or else? :)
06:33	callen	tomoj: come on, you've seen me in here.
06:33	callen	but realistically, I don't want to bother Rich either. One of the nicest people on the planet.
06:34	callen	tomoj: but it needs documented. so do it or I will :P
06:35	callen	tomoj: okay so why can't you access the closed mutex?
06:35	callen	tomoj: ManyToMany channel right?
06:35	tomoj	I'm making a patch that adds closed? by doing that now
06:35	tomoj	well closed is an atom
06:36	tomoj	so for closed? I wonder if you even need to grab the mutex
06:36	callen	tomoj: well that's what puzzled me, I figured you could just grab the mutex.
06:36	tomoj	(.mutex chan) ?
06:37	callen	I don't know the exact API, I'm just pilfering through the core.async code.
06:37	tomoj	I thought timeout was another chan impl but looks like it is just another MMC, so I guess you could rely on MMC specifics
06:38	callen	the quick-n-dirty is definitely a wrapper-fn that handles the catching and wrapping of failed put!, but I still think you can just read mutex state.
06:38	callen	which would make me happier anyway.
06:38	callen	abusing exceptions in clojure makes me feel stupid unless it's to paper over bad java code.
06:38	callen	I intentionally avoid loading slingshot partly for that reason
06:39	tomoj	wait
06:39	tomoj	closed? can't be there
06:40	tomoj	see, a bit of thinking saved rich 10min or whatever :)
06:40	tomoj	(if (closed? c) (<! c) ...) this seems useless
06:40	callen	tomoj: hrm?
06:41	callen	https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/clj/core/async/impl/ioc_macros.clj this perked me up
06:42	callen	inversion of control has been an on-and-off again subject here
06:42	callen	I saw a mention of monads
06:42	callen	I'm very curious about this code.
06:42	tomoj	oh, I hadn't figured out what "ioc" stood for
06:43	tomoj	I can't help wondering whether we really need a monad though
06:43	callen	tomoj: you haven't spent enough time around java nerds.
06:45	tomoj	"The moral is this: if you’ve got an Applicative functor, that’s good; if you’ve also got a Monad, that’s even better! And the dual of the moral is this: if you want a Monad, that’s good; if you only want an Applicative functor, that’s even better!"
06:45	tomoj	callen: oh it seems useless because the channel might have been closed in between the time you checked and the time you <!
06:45	tomoj	then you will receive a nil and think it was actually a nil message
06:47	callen	the likelihood of a timing issue approaches nil, but you should file an issue and query about it.
06:49	tomoj	wilco
06:49	tomoj	I just thought of a nice solution I think, though, so still thinking for a bit
06:52	tomoj	callen: https://github.com/clojure/core.async/issues/3
06:53	mindbender1	Please can someone throw more light on what a pure function is?
06:53	mindbender1	or is not
06:54	tomoj	hmm, my first thought was "meaning of the return value is a function of the meanings of the arguments"
06:54	tomoj	but that seems to beg the question :)
06:54	clgv	mindbender1: A pure function always returns the same result when called with the same arguments
06:55	clgv	mindbender1: even shorter but using a second term: a function without side-effects
06:55	tomoj	which presupposes a sound meaning for 'same' on the argument and result types
06:56	tomoj	'without external side-effects' maybe?
06:56	clgv	tomoj: if you need a lawyer definition, yes ;)
06:56	mindbender1	clgv: even if its computation is not fully dependent in the totality of its argument?
06:56	mindbender1	on
06:58	mindbender1	maybe like reference something that's not local
06:59	tomoj	it doesn't matter how, just what
06:59	mindbender1	tomoj: makes sense
07:00	tomoj	another example, a pure function can use aset or set! or transients or something
07:00	mindbender1	and what almost always refer to the return value?
07:00	tomoj	as long as the impurity doesn't leak out of the function
07:01	tomoj	what matters is 'same args => same return' like clgv said
07:01	mindbender1	tomoj: can you please give an example of impurity leaking out of a function?
07:02	tomoj	(fn [coll] (conj! coll 3))
07:02	tomoj	it takes a transient and mutates it and then returns it
07:02	tomoj	so people who call it have to worry about side-effects
07:02	clgv	tomoj: huh? why?
07:03	tomoj	it doesn't take or return values
07:04	clgv	it always adds a 3. if you provide the same transient each time you'll get the same result
07:04	mindbender1	3 is a constant
07:04	tomoj	there's no such thing as 'same transient'
07:04	tomoj	&(= (transient []) (transient []))
07:04	lazybot	⇒ false
07:05	clgv	well, rephrase it to euqality in terms of clojures immutable datastructures
07:05	tomoj	you can't implement equality on a transient
07:05	tomoj	except by identity
07:05	clgv	&(let [f (fn [coll] (conj! coll 3))] (println (f (transient [1 2]))) (println (f (transient [1 2]))))
07:05	lazybot	⇒ #<TransientVector clojure.lang.PersistentVector$TransientVector@464462> #<TransientVector clojure.lang.PersistentVector$TransientVector@13396b0> nil
07:05	tomoj	which is not an acceptable meaning for 'same' in the definition we gave of a pure function :)
07:06	clgv	&(let [f (fn [coll] (conj! coll 3))] (println (persistent! (f (transient [1 2])))) (println (persistent! (f (transient [1 2])))))
07:06	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3] [1 2 3] nil
07:06	tomoj	clgv: https://www.refheap.com/paste/f64dd676ba2acc5986fa61436
07:06	clgv	I'd say that is clearly the behavior of a pure function
07:07	tomoj	it's not even in the running
07:07	tomoj	the plane crashed and exploded on the runway
07:08	clgv	lol, ah k. I see what I forgot
07:08	tomoj	speaking of which, channels!
07:08	tomoj	:/
07:11	mindbender1	so if I understand correctly, equality of output for the same arguments defines a pure function?
07:11	clgv	mindbender1: do you ask for an academic definition or just to understand the concept?
07:11	tomoj	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_function
07:11	tomoj	it also can't send you an e-mail
07:12	clgv	tomoj: in combination with agents it can ;)
07:12	clgv	ah transcations and agents I mean
07:12	tomoj	the agent handles that
07:12	clgv	yep
07:12	tomoj	not the pure function :)
07:12	mindbender1	clgv: I'm worried because when I read a doc and someone says there function is pure I don't really know how to evaluate that statement for truthiness
07:13	clgv	mindbender1: if it reads or changes globals, this is a good hint that it is not pure
07:13	clgv	mindbender1: tomoj's transient example is another to look out fot
07:13	mindbender1	yeah
07:13	tomoj	1) it has to take values as args and return a value
07:14	tomoj	2) it can't affect important parts of the rest of the program/system/world
07:14	clgv	mindbender1: closures with atoms are another hint
07:14	tomoj	oh and yeah, uh, same args => same return
07:14	mindbender1	I was waiting for that clgv
07:15	tomoj	but memoize has a closed-over atom, and it is pure and returns a pure function
07:15	clgv	mindbender1: counter example: (let [f (let [c (atom 0)] (fn [] (swap! c inc))] (println (f) (f)))
07:15	clgv	&(let [f (let [c (atom 0)] (fn [] (swap! c inc))] (println (f) (f)))
07:15	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: ]
07:16	clgv	&(let [f (let [c (atom 0)] (fn [] (swap! c inc)))] (println (f) (f)))
07:16	lazybot	⇒ 1 2 nil
07:17	clgv	tomoj: well, it is an edge case. in a strict "pure function" definition considering the whole context it is not pure. it will allocate more and more memory for the cache
07:18	clgv	tomoj: if you just limit it to the function call you can call it pure
07:18	tomoj	hmm, yeah
07:18	tomoj	I almost said "arguably"
07:18	tomoj	I chose "important" above carefully
07:19	tomoj	lazy seqs are kinda weird too
07:19	tomoj	I wouldn't say they're an edge case though
07:20	clgv	but memoize can be important in that sense if the used parameter domain is too large for memory but still only sparse in the whole parameter domain
07:20	tomoj	yeah
07:20	clgv	luckily there is core.memoize ;)
07:22	mindbender1	thanks
07:23	tomoj	mindbender1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referential_transparency_(computer_science)
07:35	mindbender1	referentially opaque! :) Thanks tomoj, was helpful.
07:45	xificurC	leiningen installation on Windows day 3: a new clean attempt with lein.bat downloads the lein jar, no errors. Running `lein repl` in the cmd starts the repl with an initialisation error java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unknown signal: CONT at com.bim.misc.AbstractSignalInfo.GetSignalNumber(AbstractSignalInfor.java:59)
07:46	xificurC	and `lein new first`just keeps hanging and never finishes
07:46	xificurC	any tips?
07:46	Anderkent	which jar did it download?
07:47	Anderkent	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1172 seems possibly related?
07:47	xificurC	leiningen-2.1.3-standalone.jar
07:49	Anderkent	java 6 or java 7?
07:49	xificurC	6
07:50	Anderkent	ok, as a hotfix try `lein upgrade 2.1.0`
07:51	Anderkent	(apparently that might not work on windows, so try just downloading https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/2.1.0/bin/lein.bat and using that instead)
07:51	Anderkent	as you might notice, windows is definitely a second-class citizen for lein :P
07:51	Anderkent	Once you get it working, you should probably post a comment to https://github.com/trptcolin/reply/issues/37 and/or https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1121
07:53	xificurC	Anderkent: trying out thanks a lot
07:54	xificurC	Anderkent: unfortunately i cant switch to linux at work
07:54	mindbender1	xificurC: fortunately you can run windows within linux from virtualbox ;)
07:55	Anderkent	it's also supposed to work better with cygwin
07:57	xificurC	mindbender1: i cant reinstall my pc just like that heh
07:58	xificurC	Anderkent: I could try that too. I tried to install leiningen via the linux lein script but I hit in some thick walls when I tried to get nrepl working on emacs
07:58	ucb	can anybody share an example of the entries I need to add to my project.clj to be able to push to clojars? If I try to push with no entries at all in there, it'll ask me for username/password the first time. Subsequent times will fail with a NPE :(
07:59	ucb	interestingly enough, "upgrading" leiningen fixes the NPE even if the upgrade is a noop
07:59	lotia	exit
07:59	Anderkent	ucb: probably because it tries to cache the credentials
07:59	lotia	\q
07:59	ucb	Anderkent: possibly
07:59	ucb	haven't looked into it :)
07:59	ucb	I'd still like to not have to type these credentials in every time :)
08:00	Anderkent	did you try `lein help deploying` ?
08:01	ucb	Anderkent: I did. I've read it all, but it's mostly about private repos? Perhaps I missed it.
08:01	Anderkent	there's a bit about authentication in the middle
08:01	Anderkent	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/doc/DEPLOY.md might be nicer to read
08:02	Anderkent	:q
08:02	Anderkent	oups
08:03	ucb	thanks Anderkent, will read
08:04	Anderkent	basically you want a ~/.lein/credentials.clj.gpg so that you don't have to type the creds every time
08:04	xificurC	Anderkent: even with the provided batch file it downloaded 2.1.3, I even checked the file and it explicitly asks for 2.1.0
08:06	Anderkent	xificurC: can you post the output somewhere?
08:07	xificurC	Anderkent: I realised I had a LEIN_JAR environment variable that might have caused the issue so I deleted it and am trying again
08:26	Grievre	Why is Clojure so much more popular than kawa?
08:26	Grievre	(I've never used either, I'm just curious)
08:32	clgv	Grievre: is it? what source did you read?
08:35	clgv	Grievre: I found a discussion on stackoverflow: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1413390/why-clojure-over-other-jvm-lisps-kawa-armed-bear-or-sisc
08:37	Grievre	clgv: I mean I'm just going off of the fact that I hear clojure mentioned fairly often and kawa very rarely
08:40	dnolen`	Grievre: probably because it's yet another Scheme variant, Clojure offers quite a few enhancements over Scheme.
08:41	xificurC	Anderkent: same issues with 2.1.0
08:43	Grievre	dnolen`: Like?>
08:43	Grievre	Like?
08:44	dnolen`	Grievre: better data structures, better concurrency support, multimethods, protocols, sensible module system, reducers, etc etc
08:54	tomoj	callen: "nil messages are not supported by design" - this is what I expected :)
08:59	trptcolin	xificurC: reading the logs - looks like you're getting a CONT error? that should have already been handled as of lein 2.0.0 (and REPLy 0.1.0). mind pasting the full stack trace on refheap.com?
09:00	trptcolin	it sounds like an error that existed in lein 2.0.0-preview2 and older
09:01	trptcolin	https://github.com/trptcolin/reply/issues/37
09:01	xificurC	trptcolin: give me a minute ill try to get the error again
09:01	trptcolin	also, does `lein version` verify that you're not actually using an older lein version?
09:02	trptcolin	xificurC: ok
09:04	xificurC	`lein version` shows Leiningen 2.1.3
09:05	xificurC	however I do have a Java 1.6.0 IBM version
09:05	xificurC	can I copy the stacktrace from cmd?
09:06	trptcolin	xificurC: yes, please do
09:08	xificurC	trptcolin: https://www.refheap.com/paste/14878
09:13	wink	this is really interesting: http://prog21.dadgum.com/41.html
09:14	xificurC	trptcolin: cygwin managed to create a new project with `lein new first` so I cd'd in and tried `lein repl` there, here is the result: https://www.refheap.com/paste/14879
09:20	trptcolin	xificurC: the second error is probably https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1121
09:23	trptcolin	the first one is annoying but it appears things are actually working after it finishes starting up - is that correct?
09:25	xificurC	trptcolin: yes it does indeed
09:27	xificurC	trptcolin: I tried to get leiningen working by now through cmd, cygwin and git bash, none of them produced a full solution as in: be able to run the repl, be able to lein repl in a new project, be able to M-x nrepl-jack-in in emacs
09:27	xificurC	I could live without the last one but the first two should work
09:29	trptcolin	ok, i need to drop off and get ready to head in to work. there have been several windows issues fixed since 2.1.3, so hopefully you'll find fewer issues in 2.2.0 when it's out in the next week or two.
09:29	xificurC	trptcolin: thanks for the support, I can wait for that :) Also I will try and look if I can get jre 7 on my pc
09:31	clgv	xificurC: do you use Eclipse+CCW on windows?
09:31	trptcolin	for that stack trace, i don't see that on 2.1.3 on my windows VM, so i almost wonder if there could be some special :repl-options or :init-ns settings (whether in the project or in $HOME/.lein/profiles.clj) that are trying to set that signal handler but not catching the error. the "Got throwable in Signal initialisation" doesn't appear to be a message ever generated by reply, as far as i can tell.
09:32	xificurC	clgv: no and I dont know what it is
09:32	trptcolin	actually in googling that, looks like an IBM JDK-specific thing. perhaps they print the error themselves rather than bubbling an exception up like reasonable people?
09:33	clgv	xificurC: in case you are not sold to emacs: Eclipse with the Counterclokwise plugin is a Clojure IDE which has basic leiningen integration.
09:33	xificurC	trptcolin: that is possible, I am no real programmer to answer that though
09:33	xificurC	trptcolin: I'd just like to learn
09:34	clgv	xificurC: task support for uberjar or install is still missing AFAIK but you can start developing rightaway
09:35	xificurC	clgv: i'd like to stay loyal to emacs to be honest, but if i wont be able to get it running I'll remember this option, thanks a lot
09:38	clgv	xificurC: yeah, if you cant get it running soon, just try CCW so that you do not have to wait until the next leiningen release just to start learning
09:39	xificurC	clgv: yeah the moment I lose all my nerves I'll do that :)
09:40	noncom	hi, i need to calculate 3 values from each number in a sequence, and all the results have to be in a vector. what is the best way? currently i do this: http://pastebin.com/8nv99LpE but it takes too long. I do not like: 1) it is taking long, 2) it uses (nth), 3) the result is a vector where each element is a vector with 3 elements (x, y and z) and flattening it with (flatten) takes rather long too
09:40	noncom	any suggestions on possible improvements?
09:43	noncom	oh, please discard the first concern - it takes too long because of the subsequent flatten, not by itself. so only points 2 and 3 are of question
09:46	noncom	ummm.. anyone?
09:46	trptcolin	xificurC: unfortunately the IBM jvm isn't open source and i have the sun jvm in my windows vm, so i'm at a bit of a dead end w/ that error.
09:47	trptcolin	but i suspect it's just printing to stderr. if you're tied to the ibm jvm perhaps you can find some jvm flags to pass to avoid having it print that garbage. but i don't think it's actually propagating that exception all the way up to REPLy, just the printing
09:48	xificurC	trptcolin: oh nevermind go do something more useful than taking care of my errors, you helped me enough by now. I will try to upgrade my jre hopefully tomorrow and see if it brings better results
09:49	xificurC	also that stacktrace only printed in plain cmd, when I ran the command via Console I didnt get the stacktrace printed
09:58	chronno_	nomcom: maybe something like (mapv (juxt dec identity inc) (range 10))
09:59	chronno_	nomcom: juxt returns the vector you want
10:00	chronno_	,(mapv (juxt dec identity inc) (range 10))
10:00	clojurebot	[[-1 0 1] [0 1 2] [1 2 3] [2 3 4] [3 4 5] ...]
10:01	chronno_	noncom:^^
10:01	tomoj	I'm guessing implementing the seq/reducer fns on channels is missing the point ?
10:01	tomoj	s/channels/core.async channels/
10:03	noncom	chronno_: but i need to flatten the vector, not огче it i think. like i get this: [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]] while ineed this: [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9]
10:04	noncom	i get the triplets because of how i calculate data
10:04	chronno_	noncom: try wrapping it with (apply concat (mapv (juxt dec identity inc) (range 10))
10:04	noncom	but there should be another way, which is as fast..?
10:04	chronno_	,(apply concat (mapv (juxt dec identity inc) (range 10))
10:04	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
10:04	noncom	wait, i'll try apply concat.
10:05	chronno_	,(apply concat (mapv (juxt dec identity inc) (range 10)))
10:05	clojurebot	(-1 0 1 0 1 ...)
10:05	clgv	noncom: reduce+into instead of map?
10:06	noncom	reduce takes toooo long...
10:08	clgv	noncom: I doubt that
10:10	clgv	noncom: provided you now have (mapv f some-coll) which returns [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]] - you can use reduce like (reduce #(into % (f %2)) [] some-coll) to get [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9]
10:13	noncom	... trying out the proposed solutions...
10:34	asteve	how would you abbreviate total time?
10:34	asteve	tott or ttot?
10:34	asteve	I've seen ttot in the past and it doesn't make sense to me
10:35	justin_smith	seems frenchlish
10:35	justin_smith	duree totale - time totale - ttot
10:35	llasram	hah, I was going to say the same thing. TAI and all
10:35	tos9	asteve: why abbreviate it :D
10:35	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
10:37	noncom	clgv: i have checked
10:37	noncom	reduce is really slower than apply concat
10:37	noncom	with apply concat i get around 1200 fps while with reduce into i get 800-900 fps
10:38	clgv	noncom: unlikely since concat and map are lazy and introduce the related overhead
10:38	noncom	(time) shows that apply+concat take about 0.1 ms while reduce+into takes about 0.7 ms
10:38	clgv	noncom: can you post the code on refheap or the link to the file on github?
10:38	asteve	tos9: because total-time-sub1s-vars is super duper long :)
10:38	S11001001	noncom: change your (apply concat ...) to (vec (apply concat ...)) and see if you get the same results, because you need vec or something similar to actually get equivalence here
10:38	clojurebot	Something weird that I noticed: & (use '[clojure.contrib.json :as json]) & &\| (json/pprint-json nil) \|&
10:39	clgv	noncom: concat is lazy and thus meauring the duration of the call doesnt give you any information
10:39	noncom	ok, wait, let's try the extracted code now, wait a sec..
10:39	llasram	clojurebot is in rare form this morning
10:39	clgv	noncom: measure the time with (doall (apply concat ...))
10:39	tos9	asteve: meh. I don't mind long variable names. Especially when the abbreviation is not immediately totally obvious.
10:40	asteve	perhaps tt would make more sense
10:40	noncom	actually the seq then goes into java direct buffer constructor, so it is unlazed there
10:40	noncom	.. anyway
10:41	S11001001	if your measurements include the full force too
10:43	noncom	http://pastebin.com/hMT9zsVd
10:43	noncom	here
10:43	noncom	the first function does the calc of vertices, the second function sends them into a nio buffer creator
10:44	S11001001	never do variant 3
10:44	noncom	event if i'm applying (time) to a unlazed sequence, having wrong timing, the 3D engine's fps counter won't lie...
10:44	noncom	S11001001: yeah :D quickly learned that :D
10:45	noncom	i experience around 300 fps drop while using reduce
10:45	S11001001	well, ok. I think then maybe you could get away with map over mapv
10:46	pandeiro	would simply blocking on a ring handler be a decent way to implement long-polling on the browser side?
10:46	tomoj	pandeiro: as long as you don't have a whole lot of users
10:46	tomoj	I think..
10:47	clgv	noncom: well if you write it like that you should use `conj` instead of into - that saves you a vector construction as well
10:47	pandeiro	hmm..
10:47	weavejester	pandeiro: It's a reasonable solution if you expect no more than, say, 1000 users per server.
10:47	clgv	noncom: for full speed use a transient vector in the reduce
10:47	pandeiro	concurrent users right?
10:47	weavejester	pandeiro: Right
10:48	pandeiro	ok thanks, i'll go with that for this implementation and think about switching out jetty in the future
10:48	pandeiro	jetty does not do websockets right?
10:49	Ember-	it sure does
10:49	pandeiro	is there a way i can hook that up to compojure & ring-jetty-adapter?
10:49	clgv	noncom: http://pastebin.com/RAnWWySs
10:50	Ember-	pandeiro: most likely yes, will require some work though
10:50	Ember-	websockets are very different from regular requests
10:50	pandeiro	right
10:51	pandeiro	i noticed i couldn't even import org.eclipse.jetty.websocket.* but i guess that's just a matter of grabbing the right jar...
10:51	Ember-	yes it is
10:51	Ember-	I've used websockets in jetty with java
10:51	Ember-	worked without problems
10:51	pandeiro	i also noticed jetty is at version 9 and ring-jetty-adapter pulls in 7 something
10:51	Ember-	yeah, 7 is old. I think websockets came in 8
10:51	pandeiro	ok
10:52	pandeiro	cool for now i will just use my naive long-polling and later i will investigate websockets properly
10:52	Ember-	the right solution
10:52	pandeiro	i need to check out this httpkit too sometime
10:52	Ember-	:)
10:53	noncom	clgv: ehhh.. clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (4) passed to: core$conj-BANG-
10:53	pandeiro	thanks everybody
10:53	Ember-	with httpkit you'll enter the world of async
10:53	noncom	it takes only 1 elem to add...
10:53	noncom	i will sequence the calls i think..
10:53	Ember-	httpkit is basically node.js with clojure
10:53	clgv	noncom: oh than `conj!` doesnt have the same arity as `conj`
10:54	Ember-	so all I/O must be done in an asynchronous way or you'll kill your performance
10:54	pandeiro	Ember-: i'd be entering the world of async if i used aleph too, right?
10:54	Ember-	application has to be built from ground up to support that paradigm to get the performance benefits
10:54	Ember-	aleph I do not know
10:54	clgv	noncom: use multiple `conj!` then, e.g. (-> c (conj! ...) (conj! ...))
10:54	pandeiro	or maybe the solution is to just serve most of the app out of jetty and run the websockets server in a different thread?
10:55	Ember-	well, you could do that yes
10:56	Ember-	httpkit is pretty lightweight
10:56	Ember-	so you could use it and it's websocket support
10:56	pandeiro	yeah i just need to think about all the io i'm doing then
10:56	Ember-	just be certain you're not using blocking I/O with your websocket stuff though
10:56	pandeiro	yeah
10:56	clgv	noncom: http://pastebin.com/EpCJimMG
10:58	nDuff	clgv: pastebin.com is full of animated ads for anyone not using adblock; would you mind using refheap.com, gist.github.com, or such in the future?
10:58	noncom	clgv: checking.. doing time tests..
10:58	gfredericks	is there still no canonical implementation of a lazy hashmap?
10:58	jcromartie	pastebin is awful now
10:58	noncom	nDuff: it was me who initiated usage of pastebin, clgv originally proposed using refheap
10:58	nDuff	noncom: tsk, tsk.
10:58	S11001001	~pastebin
10:58	clojurebot	Huh?
10:58	clgv	nDuff: noncom used pastebin.com so it was easiest to stay there...
10:59	jcromartie	Well anyway :)
10:59	jcromartie	hi #clojure, I miss writing Clojure
10:59	jcromartie	so I will
10:59	mischov	hi jcromartieL, you've made the right choice.. :P
11:01	mefesto	is there a paredit command for flipping the positions of sibling forms?
11:01	mefesto	ex: (do (this) (that)) => (do (that) (this))
11:02	mefesto	something like in org-mode when moving list items around M-up / M-down
11:05	vijaykiran	mefesto: transpose-sexps ?
11:06	noncom	clgv: well, the result is quite great! with your code, the increase in fps is about +250 or even +300 on average! (so now i have like 1300-1400 instead of 1000-1100) however, there is some strange behavior.. when i start the app from scratch (killing repl), it gives around 2000 fps! then, in like 40 seconds it drops to 1400 fps and as far as i observe now, stays there... there was no drop with previous ways that i have tried. can i
11:06	noncom	?
11:06	noncom	if it would remain at 2000, that would be just the killer-solution!
11:07	Anderkent	noncom: did you try timbre?
11:07	clgv	noncom: without more context, it is hard to tell why this happens
11:07	Anderkent	https://github.com/ptaoussanis/timbre
11:08	mefesto	vijaykiran: that's pretty much it! thanks :-)
11:09	clgv	noncom: you should profile your code with jvisualvm or yourkit
11:14	noncom	yeah, i will go into profiling soon, as i finish some part of the project. thanks for the kewl solution with transients (i havent ben into them yet) and the link for timbre!
11:15	Kowboy	I have a question about compiled classes with :gen-class
11:16	Kowboy	in my main method, one of the first things I do is try to set! data-readers to add some custom reader macros
11:16	Kowboy	but when I run my main class, it complains that "Can't change/establish root binding of: data-readers with set"
11:18	Kowboy	I'm guessing this has to do with the fact that my main class is pre-compiled
11:22	Anderkent	Kowboy: that doesn't sound like a gen-class related order, it's just something must be binding data-readers before you do set! in your tests/whetever. Whereas in your main you get the root data-readers, which cannot be set! and must be either alter-var-root'ed , with-redef'd or bound with binding
11:24	Anderkent	i.e. you cannot call set! on a var that has not been thread-bound with (binding [var this-or-that] ...)
11:32	jtoy	hi all
11:42	pjstadig	gfredericks: are you going to strangeloop?
11:51	Kowboy	Anderkent, this set! call works when I run it not as a pre-compiled main class, but through -m my.namespace
11:52	Anderkent	Kowboy: via lein run or via java clojure.main ?
11:52	Kowboy	clojure.main
11:52	Kowboy	also works via lein run
11:53	mefesto	is there an official mimetype for edn? (ex. text/edn)
11:58	Anderkent	Kowboy: can you do (println (.getThreadBinding (var data-readers))) and see if they're different
11:58	Anderkent	my expectation is that something is binding data-readers when you run through clojure.main or lein run
11:58	Anderkent	but not when you run directly through your main
11:58	trptcolin	shoreleave & clj-http both use application/edn
11:58	gfredericks	pjstadig: I just last night decided not to
11:59	mefesto	trptcolin: thanks
11:59	Anderkent	btw why do you have to set! instead of doing (binding [data-readers (add-readers data-readers)] (do-stuff-with-new-data-readers))?
12:00	trptcolin	mefesto: sure
12:00	gfredericks	pjstadig: calendar math forecasts a good chance of my wife being 37 weeks pregnant at that point.
12:00	gfredericks	now I'm no calendar mathematician
12:00	Kowboy	Anderkent, it prints nil when running my compiled class
12:00	trptcolin	gfredericks: congrats. same reason (-ish) i won't make lambda jam
12:00	Kowboy	and #<TBox clojure.lang.Var$TBox@225bb9ae> when running with lein rn
12:00	gfredericks	trptcolin: curses!
12:01	Anderkent	yeah, so something is wrapping your code and providing the binding
12:01	Anderkent	which is why your set! works
12:01	Anderkent	you could just make a wrapper around the main that does (binding [data-readers data-readers] (real-main))
12:12	jcromartie	I would like to start "lein repl" but my main namespace currently does not load
12:12	jcromartie	is there a way I can skip loading the main ns?
12:13	jcromartie	aside from temporarily changing project.clj..
12:13	trptcolin	jcromartie: it's a "soft" failure in lein master. one workaround is to set an :init-ns (which takes precedence over :main)
12:16	trptcolin	so you could do that in the project.clj too or use the higher-order task (HOT?) update-in
12:16	trptcolin	i find update-in a little tricky to get the syntax right, but it's kind of nice
12:23	technomancy	update-in is tricky to use on top-level keys unfortunately
12:24	technomancy	you have to give it an empty keyseq: lein update-in "" assoc :main clojure.main/main -- run
12:26	technomancy	it's new
12:27	gfredericks	new is also a task
12:28	Anderkent	technomancy: lein help update-in says : is the project root
12:28	technomancy	Anderkent: oh yeah, that works too
12:31	gfredericks	technomancy: my coworker informs me that the creator of the GIF just mandated a particular pronunciation; I propose you choose some obnoxiously counterintuitive pronunciation for "lein" and "leiningen"
12:31	gfredericks	first suggestion: "LEE-in"
12:31	Anderkent	clean - the c is invisible
12:31	gfredericks	haha
12:32	technomancy	what, default German pronunciation isn't counterintuitive enough?
12:32	technomancy	"Just watch the movie and say it the opposite of how they do"
12:33	trptcolin	the creator of the image format responsible for this has no right to tell me how to pronounce things: http://i.minus.com/i756CgF9tf78w.gif
12:34	gfredericks	you're allowed to decide the pronunciations of words you coin as long as they don't refer to tools that are ever used for inane things
12:34	Anderkent	http://www.forvo.com/search/leiningen that sounds reasonable and not counterintuitive at all
12:34	Kowboy	Anderkent, the binding worked
12:35	trptcolin	exactly. when someone uses reply for cat videos they can pronounce it as they see fit
12:35	technomancy	gfredericks: https://mobile.twitter.com/ieure/status/336983116910579712?p=v
12:35	gfredericks	"layNING-en"
12:38	frankenBits	Hi
12:38	frankenBits	I am looking for some advice on Clojure & Webservices
12:38	frankenBits	Anyone here familiar with using Clojure with WSDL & SOAP technologies?
12:39	trptcolin	https://github.com/seancorfield/clj-soap
12:41	Anderkent	Hm. I can't use findfn in a standalone repl anymore. Weird
12:44	Anderkent	https://www.refheap.com/paste/14883 Any ideas?
12:44	Foxboron	Anderkent: what you trying todo?
12:45	Anderkent	load findfn in a standalone repl
12:45	Foxboron	(ns findfn.core)?
12:45	Anderkent	https://github.com/Raynes/findfn
12:47	txdv	(ns libuv)?
12:48	TimMc	gfredericks: lay-NIN-jen
12:49	trptcolin	Anderkent: bump the version. looks like 0.1.0 does that; 0.1.3 doesn't
12:49	justin_smith	Anderkent: that second error is weird, because clojail is in findfn's project.clj - which makes me think the first error may be an error clojail is causing?
12:50	Anderkent	0.1.3 works
12:50	Anderkent	weird stuff, I remember it working
12:50	Anderkent	ah, guess I did upgrade lein in the meantime, so maybe that broke it
12:50	supersym	gfredericks: lol... they even have a web site about pronounciation :D nice one
12:51	justin_smith	Anderkent: sometimes I find when I want more info about an error in a repl I need to do a try catch to get more info (or was there a more informative stack trace you are eliding)
12:51	justin_smith	swank does this in some odd situations - no error even reported, but with a try/catch I can see the error and print the stack trace
12:52	Anderkent	wow, but trying to use it with clojails blows up pretty hard
12:52	Anderkent	can't even ctrl-c it
12:53	Anderkent	https://www.refheap.com/paste/14884 it doesn't like trying to update history from within the jail, I guess
12:54	trptcolin	there's work on reply master to handle read-only filesystems
12:54	Anderkent	it's not read only
12:54	trptcolin	same effect
12:54	Anderkent	ah, I see
12:54	trptcolin	try to write file, catch exception
13:08	djwonk	how can I convert a var (pointing to a function) to a string?
13:09	djwonk	or keyword?
13:09	djwonk	this could be a terrible idea, but I want to see if it solves a problem I have
13:10	nDuff	djwonk: what are you trying to accomplish? Could you give an example?
13:10	nDuff	djwonk: is your goal to recover the function's source?
13:10	nDuff	...just get the name of the var? ...?
13:11	djwonk	nDuff: (defn x [] nil) (str x) ; "my-lib.core$x@6b59cf26"
13:12	djwonk	I'd like to get just "x" out
13:12	djwonk	I don't need the source
13:13	justin_smith	djwonk: (defmacro bare [x] `'~x)
13:13	justin_smith	(bare fn) -> fn
13:14	justin_smith	that is a bad name, but whatever
13:14	justin_smith	you could throw a call to str in there too if that is what you need
13:14	djwonk	justin_smith: thanks
13:14	justin_smith	djwonk: np
13:15	justin_smith	actually, (quote) may do what you want
13:15	justin_smith	(quote fn) -> fn
13:15	djwonk	ah! (str 'x)
13:16	justin_smith	(comp str quote) if you want to make it a function all classy like
13:16	justin_smith	oops, no, because quote is a macro
13:17	djwonk	right. so I've looked over a bunch of validation libraries but decided to try to write a super simple one myself. famous last words probably
13:18	gzmask	when I use fireplace.vim, :FireConnect localhost:port and leon repl gives "usage: proto://" error. what am I doing wrong?
13:19	justin_smith	I think it wants http:// or ssh:// or whatever in front of localhost
13:19	justin_smith	maybe tcp://?
13:20	gzmask	justin_smith: tried those, didn't work
13:20	tos9	gzmask: That sounds like an old version. It's called Connect now. And if you're using lein repl it should automatically connect, if you hadn't seen that.
13:21	gzmask	tos9: I tried :Connect , gives not found error. did I missed something in the depandcy chain?
13:22	justin_smith	maybe nrepl:// is recognized as a protocol? or repl://
13:22	tos9	gzmask: No, I was saying it sounds like your fireplace.vim is outdated.
13:24	arkh	does anyone know of example code that uses org.flatland/tokyocabinet?
13:25	gzmask	tos9: what repo should I be using? I used one from github with 268 stars. looks offical
13:26	tos9	gzmask: Oh, no, never mind, carry on, FireplaceConnect is right, the docs are just wrong I think (I never use FireplaceConnect because of ^)
13:27	gzmask	tos9: what is ^)?
13:28	tos9	gzmask: "if you're using lein repl it should automatically connect,"
13:36	djwonk	are there some rough (or better) guidelines when to use metadata?
13:37	djwonk	https://github.com/bbatsov/clojure-style-guide is cool but is about the how, not the why
13:40	noidi	djwonk, use metadata for data that shouldn't affect object equality
13:42	djwonk	noidi: great. any more tailored guidelines for functions?
13:43	noidi	functions don't have metadata
13:43	noidi	vars do
13:43	djwonk	noidi: right, I should speak more carefully. defn can attach metadata, that's what I meant
13:45	djwonk	here is an example I'm thinking about. I know there are many validation libraries, BTW, but I'm finding it useful to do a simple one for now
13:45	djwonk	https://gist.github.com/bluemont/43216ec4543115c29ee7
13:45	noidi	sorry, I was wrong about that, function objects can have metadata. it's just defn that attaches it to the var and not the function object.
13:46	djwonk	oh
13:46	djwonk	so in my example, I'm putting a string into metadata, which ultimately will show up to a user. that feels wrong
13:47	djwonk	doing this right means thinking multilingual, too -- I probably should look around more.
13:50	noidi	I think metadata shouldn't affect what your function does
13:50	noidi	metadata does not impact equality, and two functions that do different things can hardly be called equal
13:52	noidi	I don't know what I'm rambling on about, of course a function can't access its own metadata
13:52	noidi	just ignore me :(
13:53	noidi	oops, that should've been a ":)"
13:55	mefesto	is clojure.edn available from cljs?
14:01	lynaghk`	What's the nice trick for integrating YourKit with Clojure? Just attaching to a Swank or nrepl REPL session fills the results with unrelated gunk.
14:02	hiredman	lynaghk`: are you sure you are attaching to the right process?
14:02	hiredman	lein starts two jvms
14:02	lynaghk`	hiredman: yeah, I'm grabbing the higher PID
14:03	hiredman	lynaghk`: with visualvm (not sure about yourkit) you can see the command line args to the jvm
14:03	hiredman	I would use those to make sure
14:03	lynaghk`	I can see some of my classes, but my execution time seems dominated by reflection--however, there is no reflection going on in the code I'm actually running
14:03	jodaro	hrm
14:03	jodaro	codox seems to eat my ns level docs
14:03	lynaghk`	at least, my code (no reflection warnings are printed when I define the fns)
14:03	hiredman	lynaghk`: if the profiler says reflection, that is what it is
14:04	lynaghk`	hiredman: are there cases where (set! warn-on-reflection true) doesn't actually warn about all reflections?
14:04	hiredman	lynaghk`: check to make sure you have warn on reflection turned on correctly, are you calling other code?
14:04	hiredman	lynaghk`: it only warns about code as it compiles
14:04	lynaghk`	hiredman: just clojure.core stuff and than calls to jBLAS
14:05	hiredman	are you sure you are running the code you think you are? (stale class files with reflection?)
14:07	lynaghk`	hiredman: now that I've double checked, there are a few places with reflection still
14:07	lynaghk`	hiredman: is there a way to annotate the return type of a function passed in as an arg?
14:08	hiredman	what?
14:08	clojurebot	what is cells
14:08	lynaghk`	Or do I have to annotate the anon fn directly where I call it?
14:08	lynaghk`	(fn [x f] (f x))
14:08	hiredman	you'll have to type hint where you call it
14:08	lynaghk`	er, that's not a good example. (fn [x f] (.native (f x)))
14:09	lynaghk`	I can annotate (f x) directly?
14:09	lynaghk`	well, I'll be damned. I thought type annotations were on vars only.
14:09	hiredman	type hints
14:13	lynaghk`	hiredman: any chance you know how to hint a 2d array of doubles?
14:13	technomancy	array type hints are so wacky
14:13	lynaghk`	that something is a 2d array of doubles, I mean.
14:13	technomancy	just completely baffling
14:15	lynaghk`	technomancy: awww yeah: ^"[[D"
14:15	technomancy	I'm sure there are humans to whom that makes perfect logical sense, but I don't think I want to be one of them.
14:30	gzmask	is clojure namespace referenced due to path or the definition of (ns *) in that file?
14:33	asteve	I have a vector that is ["a" "b" "c"] and a vector that is [1 2 3] I would like to create a new vector that is ["a" 1 "b" 2 "c" 3]; should I use map?
14:34	hiredman	~namespace
14:34	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
14:34	noidi	,(interleave ["a" "b" "c"] [1 2 3])
14:34	clojurebot	("a" 1 "b" 2 "c" ...)
14:34	asteve	noidi: that is magic, thank you
14:37	djwonk	noidi: speaking of our earlier conversation: http://stackoverflow.com/a/16699128/109618
14:38	gzmask	does that mean path/file.clj and (ns path.file) has to be equivalently mapped? any (ns name.space) not mapping the file path will behave faulty?
14:39	asteve	I would like to take the index of vector1 and divide it by X then insert that into the same index point of vecto2
14:39	asteve	do I want to use into and a for loop?
14:40	antares_	gzmask: various toolchain parts assume the ns name structure is the same as directory/file structure against one of the source roots
14:40	asteve	so, assuming vector1 was [10 20 30], X = 10, I want a new vector to be [1 2 3]
14:41	gzmask	antares_: so this is a convention everyone has to follow?
14:41	djwonk	asteve: you might also look at `map-indexed`
14:41	antares_	gzmask: that's not a language requirement, you can define any namespace in the REPL. But when you AOT compile, or use gen-class, etc tools will expect this convention to be respected
14:41	djwonk	,(doc map-indexed)
14:41	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to 0 and the first item of coll, followed by applying f to 1 and the second item in coll, etc, until coll is exhausted. Thus function f should accept 2 arguments, index and item."
14:42	antares_	gzmask: yes. It is a good idea anyway.
14:42	gzmask	antares_: i see, thanks
14:53	asteve	so, I'm missing something
14:53	asteve	,(let [v1 ["a" "b" "c"] v2 (vec (repeat 3 0))] (update-in v2 (map-indexed (fn [idx itm] (+ itm 10)) v2)) (interleave v1 v2))
14:53	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$update-in>
14:53	asteve	I'm trying to achieve a result that is ["a" 10 "b" 10 "c" 10]
14:54	asteve	update-in requires 3 parameters but I'm not sure what the parameter would be for every element in the array
14:54	gzmask	what's the difference between :dependencies and {:dev {:dependencies in project.clj? is the dev ones enable in my lein repo?
14:54	asteve	sorry, vector
14:54	gzmask	lein repl*
14:56	gfredericks	gzmask: yes they are
14:56	gfredericks	:dev is a profile
14:57	gfredericks	leiningen has a whole md file on profiles
14:57	gfredericks	which can be a bit subtle
14:57	IamDrowsy	asteve: if you don't use the idx arg, you can just use map instead of map-indexed
14:58	hyPiRion	asteve: update in works as follows:
14:58	IamDrowsy	and update-in won't change v2.
14:58	gfredericks	,(interleave ["a" "b" "c"] (repeat 0))
14:58	clojurebot	("a" 0 "b" 0 "c" ...)
14:58	hyPiRion	,(doc update-in)
14:58	clojurebot	"([m [k & ks] f & args]); 'Updates' a value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys and f is a function that will take the old value and any supplied args and return the new value, and returns a new nested structure. If any levels do not exist, hash-maps will be created."
14:59	asteve	I would like to update v2, what should I use instead
14:59	asteve	I see that I can do (map #(+ % 10) v2)
14:59	hyPiRion	You cannot "update" v2, you must create a new list/vector.
15:00	asteve	ah, ok
15:00	asteve	so
15:00	hyPiRion	You can shadow v2 though, using something like ##(let [a 10 a (+ a 10)] a)
15:00	lazybot	⇒ 20
15:00	asteve	,(let [v1 ["a" "b" "c"] v2 (vec (repeat 3 0))] (interleave v1 (map #(+ % 10) v2)))
15:01	clojurebot	("a" 10 "b" 10 "c" ...)
15:01	asteve	what is the … for?
15:01	hyPiRion	it's there because the list is long, and clojurebot won't print everything
15:01	hyPiRion	,[1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10]
15:01	asteve	got it, thanks for the help
15:01	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 ...]
15:11	Okasu	,'#(% %1 %2 {})
15:11	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__29# p2__30#] (p1__29# p1__29# p2__30# {}))
15:11	Okasu	,'#(% %1 %2 {})
15:11	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__59# p2__60#] (p1__59# p1__59# p2__60# {}))
15:15	Okasu	,'#(%1000)
15:15	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__90# p2__91# p3__92# p4__93# p5__94# ...] (p1000__89#))
15:15	Okasu	,'#(%100000)
15:15	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
15:15	amalloy	i always forget about interleave. asteve, just for entertainment you might also try (mapcat list v1 v2)
15:15	asteve	thanks
15:16	amalloy	or, i guess, since you wanted to add ten to each key-thing, it would be (mapcat (fn [a b] [a (+ 10 b)]) v1 v2)
15:17	Okasu	,#(%100)
15:17	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't specify more than 20 params, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
15:17	Okasu	Heh.
15:23	hyPiRion	wait
15:23	hyPiRion	,#(%100000)
15:23	clojurebot	eval service is offline
15:23	hyPiRion	oops
15:24	Okasu	LoL.
15:24	Okasu	&(#(%-10) lol)
15:24	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: p-10__14395# in this context
15:24	amalloy	&(%100000)
15:24	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: %100000 in this context
15:24	amalloy	&#(%100000)
15:24	hyPiRion	That should be a clojure core "bug"/"enhancement"
15:25	amalloy	hyPiRion: you mean, the reader should refuse to read the form?
15:25	Okasu	Agreed, but to lazy to fill forms.
15:25	Okasu	too*
15:25	hyPiRion	amalloy: more like not expand it. What happens is that the function expansion casts the 20-max exception
15:26	hyPiRion	,'#(%25)
15:26	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__200170# p2__200171# p3__200172# p4__200173# p5__200174# ...] (p25__200169#))
15:26	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't specify more than 20 params
15:26	Okasu	&'#(%-100)
15:26	lazybot	⇒ (fn* [] (p-100__114422#))
15:26	Okasu	Totally broken thing.
15:26	amalloy	hyPiRion: not expand is the same thing as not read
15:27	hyPiRion	right. I don't think I said anything about not reading though
15:27	Okasu	,'#(%-1.0)
15:27	clojurebot	(fn* [& rest__200222#] (rest__200222#))
15:27	Okasu	Whoa.
15:28	hyPiRion	Okasu: what did you just do
15:28	amalloy	Raynes: lazybot's timeout doesn't apply to reading code, only to evaluating it
15:28	llasram	Okasu: That's amazing
15:28	Okasu	Ha-ha. :)
15:28	Raynes	amalloy: Okay.
15:28	amalloy	tricky code like '#(%100000) can read to very large forms
15:29	Raynes	That sucks.
15:29	Raynes	I'll pretend to look into that tonight.
15:29	llasram	##'#(%-2/2)
15:29	lazybot	⇒ (fn* [& rest__114552#] (rest__114552#))
15:32	hyPiRion	&(->> a b (->> c d))
15:32	hyPiRion	^ that one should be more dangerous
15:32	mikerod	can you depend on (conj (seq some-coll) 'item) to always add 'item to the front of the resulting collection type?
15:33	hyPiRion	mikerod: no
15:33	hyPiRion	Or wait, for seq?
15:33	mikerod	hyPiRion: If you call seq on any collection data structure.
15:33	llasram	Yeah, with the seq in there, that's just a funny way of writing `cons`
15:33	hyPiRion	hmm
15:33	llasram	So you it'll go on the "front", but of a seq wrapping the original data structure
15:34	mikerod	llasram: I didn't know if the returned structure from seq could vary depending on what data structure it was called on.
15:34	mikerod	llasram: And I know conj just adds to wherever is "best" or whatever.
15:35	mikerod	llasram: If the behavior is just cons onto the "front" of the original structure, that make sense though.
15:36	hyPiRion	The only guarantee is that the resulting thing is an ISeq -
15:36	llasram	mikerod: There are different concrete seq type implementations, but they are still seqs, not whatever the impl is wrapping
15:42	mikerod	llasram: I thought conj behavior was based on the concrete type. So this is where I wasn't sure if I could depend on all concrete seq type implementations to have conj add to the "front".
15:43	mikerod	Is (conj (into '() some-coll) 'item) a more dependable way? Or more idiomatic? Or what is the most idiomatic way of adding an item to the front of any type of collection?
15:44	hyPiRion	,(cons 'item (seq '[some coll]))
15:44	Raynes	hyPiRion: Hi.
15:44	hyPiRion	&(cons 'item (seq '[some coll]))
15:44	lazybot	⇒ (item some coll)
15:44	hyPiRion	Raynes: hay there
15:44	Raynes	hyPiRion: Your madness keeps you sane.
15:45	gzmask	I added :profiles {:dev {:dependencies [[ring-serve "0.1.2"] … in project.clj and (use 'ring.util.serve) gives FileNotFoundException. I ran lein deps beforehand. anyone?
15:45	mikerod	hyPiRion: That makes sense.
15:45	mikerod	Thanks!
15:45	amalloy	wait, is lazybot still working on that (->> a b (->> c d))? macroexpansion should be within the timeout context for sure
15:46	TimMc	bwahaha
15:46	hyPiRion	Raynes: yeah
15:46	hyPiRion	amalloy: it should've blown the stack
15:46	hyPiRion	&(reduce + (range))
15:46	lazybot	Execution Timed Out!
15:47	TimMc	amalloy: No, I remember it erroring out.
15:47	llasram	mikerod: and `cons` calls `seq` and it's collection arg if necessary, so even just ##(cons :foo [:bar :baz])
15:47	lazybot	⇒ (:foo :bar :baz)
15:47	TimMc	Disregard that.
15:47	TimMc	&(->> a b (->> c d)) ;; maybe it was a glitch?
15:48	TimMc	Could it be throwing during macroexpansion and then just not printing anything?
15:48	hyPiRion	Raynes: how far are you now on sandman? (since I assume you quoted it)
15:48	TimMc	&(macroexpand '(->> a b (->> c d))
15:48	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading, starting at line 1
15:48	TimMc	&(macroexpand '(->> a b (->> c d)))
15:48	lazybot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
15:48	hyPiRion	TimMc: Oh, watch this
15:48	hyPiRion	,#(%100000)
15:49	Raynes	hyPiRion: A little over halfway through volume 6.
15:49	Raynes	Which appears to be the largest volume.
15:49	Raynes	Holy netsplit.
15:50	mikerod	llasram: Thanks, good to know.
15:51	hyPiRion	oh, it's still alive?
15:51	hyPiRion	,1
15:51	hyPiRion	Hm, no.
16:04	supersym	somehow I get a kick out of closing parens.. how weird is that
16:12	guns	Is there an equivalent to calling select() on in? I can use a Selector in /proc/self/fd/0, but that only works on Linux
16:12	amalloy	guns: i'd look into either java.nio or lamina
16:13	amalloy	one of them probably has a way to do non-blocking reads from system.in
16:13	guns	amalloy: I couldn't find a reliable solution in the nio package. I will look at lamina, thanks
16:14	gfredericks	&#(%100000)
16:14	hyPiRion	gfredericks: :D
16:14	gfredericks	hyPiRion: what does it do? cause the reader to hang?
16:15	gfredericks	naively it could compile to #((nth %& 100000))
16:15	hyPiRion	"Oh, you want a function with 100,000 arguments? I'll give you a function with 100,000 arguments, then try to evaluate it."
16:15	gfredericks	I guess it does probably construct a 100000 element arg vector eh?
16:15	hyPiRion	yeah
16:16	hyPiRion	with 100 000 gensyms
16:16	gfredericks	but that's not too big to manage. And the compiler should balk at it being >21 or something?
16:16	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't specify more than 20 params
16:16	rasmusto	haha
16:16	gfredericks	so apparently lazybot doesn't have a timeout on the compile phase
16:17	hyPiRion	yeah
16:19	hyPiRion	then we have ##(#(+ %1.0 %2.0) 5 7) which is kind of funny
16:19	lazybot	⇒ 12
16:20	kanwei	is there a better way to check if a string is an integer besides this shenanigans? (try (Integer/parseInt website-id) (catch Exception e nil))
16:20	rasmusto	##(#(+ %2/1 %10/5) 5 7)
16:20	lazybot	⇒ 14
16:20	gfredericks	kanwei: does #"-?\d+" work for you?
16:21	kanwei	what's the -? mean?
16:21	hyPiRion	kanwei: allows minuses
16:21	kanwei	oh right
16:23	kanwei	is there any case where Integer/parseInt would be unsafe?
16:23	gfredericks	I'd hope not
16:23	justin_smith	blowing the stack if it uses peono representation :P
16:23	hyPiRion	don't think so
16:23	gfredericks	&(Integer/parseInt (apply str (repeat 999 \3)))
16:23	lazybot	java.lang.NumberFormatException: For input string: "33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333
16:24	kanwei	sooooo
16:24	kanwei	test with regex and then edn/read-string is more idiomatic?
16:24	gfredericks	if it's really generic edn data then you'd probably also want to check for \N at the end
16:26	gfredericks	&(clojure.edn/read-string (apply str (repeat 999 \3)))
16:26	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.edn
16:27	justin_smith	,(clojure.edn/read-string (apply str (repeat 999 \3)))
16:27	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.edn>
16:27	kanwei	yeah you have to require it
16:27	kanwei	it does work tho, thanks
16:28	kanwei	altho
16:28	kanwei	gfredericks: #"-?\d+" would also succeed for "asdf12356asdf"
16:28	kanwei	no?
16:28	clojurebot	no is tufflax: there was a question somewhere in there, the answer
16:28	hyPiRion	kanwei: no
16:29	hyPiRion	,(re-matches #"-?\d+" "asdf12356asdf")
16:29	clojurebot	nil
16:29	hyPiRion	,(re-matches #"-?\d+" "12356")
16:29	clojurebot	"12356"
16:29	kanwei	&(re-seq #"-?\d+" "asdf1235")
16:29	lazybot	⇒ ("1235")
16:29	hyPiRion	yeah, use re-matches
16:30	kanwei	aight
16:33	pjstadig	gfredericks: i was going to say you should run a clojure help desk at strangeloop, but that's a good reason to stay back. congrats
16:38	djwonk	I'm looking for the simplest way to 'map' over a hash map, returning a hash map
16:39	gfredericks	pjstadig: thx
16:40	gfredericks	still haven't committed to avoiding the conj
16:42	Raynes	gfredericks: What's the congrats for?
16:42	Raynes	I can't see you making any wonderful announcements in my backlog.
16:42	gfredericks	Raynes: it was a few hours ago
16:42	gfredericks	what's a good nerdy clever way to imply that you're reproducing?
16:43	Raynes	"I have multiplied."
16:43	gfredericks	I have chosen another random subset of my genes to instantiate
16:43	djwonk	i.e. {:a 3} --> {:a 4} with something like (map-map (fn [k v] [k (inc v)]) {:a 3})
16:43	gfredericks	djwonk: amalloy would say it's questionable whether using maps is appropriate given you want to do that
16:44	gfredericks	but I want to do it all the time too
16:44	gfredericks	(into {} (for [[k v] m] [k (f v)]))
16:44	justin_smith	or even (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (f v)]) m))
16:44	djwonk	gfredericks: thanks
16:46	gfredericks	~thanks
16:46	clojurebot	We live to serve.
16:46	amalloy	gfredericks: my goal is to eventually dispense the same advice so many times that it will be repeated and attributed to me even when i'm not here. then i can stealth-retire, and continue to collect my irc paycheck
16:46	gfredericks	~thanks
16:46	clojurebot	We live to serve.
16:47	gfredericks	clojurebot: thanks is <reply> the best way to thank your friendly #clojure resident is with (inc nick)
16:47	clojurebot	c'est bon!
16:48	gfredericks	amalloy: it's in my list of amalloy folklore
16:48	amalloy	(inc nick)
16:48	lazybot	⇒ 2
16:48	gfredericks	we should start establishing tribes of idioms
16:48	clojurebot	Huh?
16:49	gfredericks	"The amalloy clan avoids mapping over a map"
16:49	amalloy	gfredericks: this particular bit of folklore was stolen from the hiredman tribe
16:49	jugimaster	> (into {} (for [[k v] m] [k (f v)])) <-- are the square brackets there just aliases for parenthesis?
16:50	Raynes	Aliases for parentheses. Nice. No. They're a different data structure than lists. Vectors.
16:50	amalloy	jugimaster: try it and see
16:50	pjstadig	aww i want my own tribe
16:50	jugimaster	well, i haven't even installed clojure yet
16:50	Raynes	You don't need to.
16:50	jugimaster	.. just considering using it :p
16:50	Raynes	We have an app for that.
16:51	gfredericks	pjstadig: you have to have your advice repeated on three separate occasions
16:51	Raynes	&(+ 3 3)
16:51	lazybot	⇒ 6
16:51	amalloy	jugimaster: coming from scheme?
16:51	jugimaster	amalloy: coming from python, and came from java before python
16:51	Raynes	You're in the right place, si.r
16:51	amalloy	(i ask just because i can't think of any other language where [] is sometimes a synonym for ())
16:51	jugimaster	but i'm not yet sure i'll come :P
16:51	Raynes	Pull up a chair.
16:51	jugimaster	:P
16:51	Raynes	Yes you will.
16:51	rasmusto	the water's pretty warm
16:52	jugimaster	well, i have a feeling that clojure might be great
16:52	gfredericks	technomancy: it's not conceivable that `lein test` should fail in the leiningen project is it?
16:52	Raynes	You can't come this far and then just abandon is. Think of the children, jugimaster.
16:52	jugimaster	:P
16:52	Raynes	us*
16:52	jugimaster	i'm mostly tempted by the performance (which is probably just silly), and that clojure might be a better tool for asyncy stuff than python
16:52	djwonk	amalloy: why is (defn map-values [f m] (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (f v)]) m))) not to your liking?
16:52	Raynes	You're already asking Clojure questions. You're nearly a Clojure programmer already. Just need you install leiningen.
16:52	trptcolin	gfredericks: be sure you're all `lein bootstrap`'ed up
16:52	jugimaster	:p
16:52	technomancy	gfredericks: lein's own test suite isn't great
16:53	Raynes	Probably because I never add tests when I make changes.
16:53	Raynes	:D
16:53	gfredericks	trptcolin: I definitely didn't make sure of that
16:53	amalloy	jugimaster: come for the parallel programming, stay for the immutable data structures
16:53	callen	jugimaster: clojure is awful, I'm just here for the music. Save yourself while you can!
16:53	jugimaster	:p
16:53	callen	jugimaster: also amalloy is right, the stuff you think is important won't be after a year.
16:53	Raynes	callen: Speaking of music, the new 30 Seconds to Mars album is pretty great.
16:53	callen	simply having not the sand shift beneath you is enough reason to stick around.
16:53	callen	not having*
16:54	callen	Raynes: I'm not surprised you like them
16:54	callen	I'm starting to get a read on your tastes.
16:54	jugimaster	amalloy: yeah.. the concurrency stuff is interesting too.. though i've never even had to deal with serious concurrency before
16:54	callen	jugimaster: advice? Don't unless you really have to.
16:54	callen	seriously, it's not worth it.
16:54	Raynes	callen: You can have full on bloody statistics on my taste if you want, bro: http://last.fm/user/RaynesFM
16:54	jugimaster	callen: yeah, but clojure would mostly just magically keep me safe? :P
16:54	jugimaster	STM and all
16:55	callen	jugimaster: it can if you use the containers right. mostly. but still, it rarely matters.
16:55	amalloy	STM doesn't really matter most of the time either, because you'll rarely be mutating anything
16:55	callen	atom suffices for most of my use-cases
16:55	jugimaster	callen: so are you saying i'll be in trouble if i ever do anything "concurrent" with clojure either? :p
16:55	Raynes	They lure you in with their refs, but you stay for the atoms.
16:55	callen	the last time I used a ref was for that goddamn client driver.
16:56	amalloy	jugimaster: not at all. concurrency support in clojure is very good, and it's fairly easy to get it right
16:56	callen	jugimaster: no, quite the opposite. Clojure is a heaven filled with naked angels and bowls of grapes compared to doing concurrent programming in pthreads.
16:56	amalloy	you just...don't need most of the tools you think you need, because everything is easier when you don't mutate things
16:56	jugimaster	can Clojure apps be run on a 256MB VPS or would the memory be hopelessly small?
16:56	Raynes	Heaven with naked angels isn't very useful callen.
16:56	callen	Raynes: wayyyyy too much My Chemical Romance.
16:57	amalloy	jugimaster: that's fine as long as you tell the JVM to limit its heap size to, say, 40MB
16:57	hiredman	stm is there, but you should avoid it, stm implies coordinated state changes, coordination for a multithread system implies slow
16:57	jugimaster	hmm
16:57	callen	Raynes: This has low odds of working, but I want to try it anyway: https://soundcloud.com/deathwishinc/deafheaven-sunbather
16:57	Raynes	callen: What's amusing is that I don't really listen to MCR much at all these days, but when I did listen to them a lot I listened so much that it just completely eclipsed everything else I've listened to since.
16:57	callen	Raynes: I have weeks like that with shoegaze.
16:57	hiredman	but sometimes you need it
16:58	hiredman	(I mean, I don't, but someone might...)
16:58	callen	hiredman: I've needed it.
16:58	callen	hiredman: I hated myself.
16:58	amalloy	jugimaster: lazybot is running on a VPS with 1.5GB of ram, along with three other clojure servers
16:58	callen	hiredman: I quickly got rid of it.
16:58	amalloy	four others? i see five java processes but i don't know what they all are
16:58	jugimaster	amalloy: well, that's quite a bit of RAM :P
16:58	Raynes	amalloy: If we ever restart it it'll be running on a server with 3GB of ram.
16:59	amalloy	jugimaster: divide it by four, and how much is it?
16:59	jugimaster	not much?
16:59	jugimaster	:p
16:59	Raynes	&(/ 1500 4)
16:59	lazybot	⇒ 375
16:59	Raynes	callen: Miss.
16:59	Raynes	My throat is hurting from the first 2 minutes.
16:59	gfredericks	haha I like the line "Unable to resolve symbol: failure-expected-here-dont-freak-out"
17:00	callen	Raynes: okay, I can shift melodic.
17:00	trptcolin	i freak out every. time.
17:03	callen	Raynes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiZxCVXhgmM
17:04	tieTYT	i'm looking at http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/derive is there any magic behind ::rect? Is that just a keyword that starts with a colon?
17:04	Raynes	callen: You should use google all access and share things with me.
17:04	Raynes	callen: Oh man. You send me an Assassin's Creed video. It's impossible for me to not like this song.
17:04	amalloy	,::rect
17:04	clojurebot	:sandbox/rect
17:05	technomancy	gfredericks: grep the test suite for "squirrel"
17:05	callen	,'amalloy
17:05	clojurebot	amalloy
17:05	callen	technomancy: SQUIRREL?! WHERE?!
17:06	technomancy	callen: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/test_projects/sample_failing/src/nom/nom/nom.clj
17:06	tieTYT	that extra colon seems to tie it to the current ns?
17:06	trptcolin	lol, i forgot about that
17:06	gfredericks	technomancy: I did it!
17:07	gfredericks	so apparently `bin/lein test` works while using my installed leiningen doesn't
17:07	gfredericks	I guess that was the trick
17:07	callen	technomancy: LOL
17:07	technomancy	callen: that wasn't me FWIW
17:08	gfredericks	tieTYT: keywords can have namespaces
17:08	gfredericks	tieTYT: the double-colon syntax automatically adds the current namespace
17:08	callen	technomancy: who?
17:08	gfredericks	the "namespace" of a keyword is not directly related to general namespaces otherwise
17:08	tieTYT	gfredericks: how do you add a different namespace from the current?
17:09	technomancy	callen: looks like it was alandipert
17:09	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/commit/93535c5a17df197ba8ee5470da49b2a22e096492 \m/
17:09	amalloy	tieTYT: look at the output of ::foo and see if you can guess
17:09	tieTYT	oh yeah I see it
17:09	technomancy	gfredericks: are you fixing the run task?
17:10	tieTYT	so with one colon, does that mean it's in no namespace?
17:10	tieTYT	or in every namespace?
17:11	hyPiRion	,::foo
17:11	clojurebot	:sandbox/foo
17:11	Raynes	tieTYT: Namespacing in keywords is not a special thing.
17:11	hyPiRion	,(= :sandbox/foo ::foo)
17:11	clojurebot	true
17:11	Raynes	tieTYT: The 'namespacing' is just the extra information on the keyword.
17:11	Raynes	You can just do :foo.diddly/bar and have the same effect if you want.
17:12	trptcolin	&((juxt namespace name) :foo/bar/baz)
17:12	lazybot	⇒ ["foo/bar" "baz"]
17:13	justin_smith	&((juxt namespace name) (keyword ":::::::foo"))
17:13	lazybot	⇒ [nil ":::::::foo"]
17:13	callen	Raynes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiIMqSqabGs ?
17:14	tieTYT	why does derive require a namespace on the keyword?
17:15	gfredericks	technomancy: are you interested in mundane refactorings such as use->require?
17:15	technomancy	gfredericks: eh; sure
17:15	technomancy	separate pull reqs would be better though
17:15	gfredericks	fo sho
17:15	mikerod	The use of https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/gvec.clj is just for vectors of primitives created through `vector-of`?
17:16	gfredericks	man running leiningen tests is so meta
17:16	gfredericks	even this acronym
17:16	mikerod	Otherwise, vectors are defined in the Java classes under IPersistentVector?
17:16	hyPiRion	gfredericks: wat
17:17	hyPiRion	you're testing lein with lein itself? Is that so hard? :p
17:17	amalloy	hyPiRion: someone once told me gcc was written in c, but i've blocked out that painful memory
17:17	bbloom	amalloy: c'mon now, bootstrapping is fun :-)
17:18	wink	not sure
17:18	wink	I find recompiling lein with lein annoying enough
17:18	Raynes	callen: Hit.
17:18	wink	and it's not exactly hard
17:18	bbloom	amalloy: and dangerous: http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html
17:19	amalloy	yes, that's a neat trick
17:19	gfredericks	oh nice there are windows line endings in this file
17:19	amalloy	Raynes: are you playing youtube battleship?
17:20	callen	Raynes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmGdSOhBx8E
17:20	Raynes	amalloy: Yes.
17:20	callen	amalloy: I'm your DJ for the day. Want some depressive black metal?
17:20	Raynes	amalloy: Because callen is too cheap for google music.
17:20	callen	Raynes: I use spotify generally.
17:20	Raynes	I also have a spotify subscription.
17:20	technomancy	what your life needs right now is more Google services
17:20	gfredericks	man embedding songs in a youtube video is like embedding text in a gif
17:20	callen	technomancy nails it, really.
17:21	Raynes	I haven't decided if I want to actually keep google music.
17:21	Raynes	shrug
17:21	Raynes	I'm fine with more google services.
17:21	callen	I'm already attached to Google by umbilical cord via gmail.
17:21	callen	I don't need more.
17:21	callen	technomancy: I should write a webmail service in clojure.
17:21	callen	with search!
17:21	technomancy	for the first time in years I'm actually glad I kept my dreamhost account around
17:21	hyPiRion	callen has now 10,000 problems
17:22	callen	^^ accurate.
17:22	callen	deliverability with private mail servers is GAG GAG GAG
17:22	gfredericks	is google cutting off something else?
17:22	muhoo	you guys aren't running your own sendmail on your VPS'es? are you wizards or what?
17:22	technomancy	gfredericks: always
17:22	hyPiRion	gfredericks: they're removing SMTP and e-mail in general. The new way of doing things is sending Google hangout messages
17:22	callen	muhoo: wouldn't the wizards be the ones willing to fuck with m4 long enough to get sendmail to work?
17:22	bbloom	i know a guy who still runs his own mail servers… he has emailed me twice now to apologize for losing previous emails from me that he needed...
17:23	muhoo	callen: well, postfix, for the sane. still.
17:23	callen	hyPiRion: I think there's a way to do it though, if you use a service like fastmail for deliverability and a private domain, you could run a custom webmail service with relatively little hassle.
17:23	hyPiRion	callen: oh sure thing
17:23	muhoo	webmail is not hard. people wrote them in PHP in the early 2000's FFS
17:23	nightfly	And they sucked
17:23	nightfly	hard
17:23	hyPiRion	It's just all the addons people require
17:24	hyPiRion	then the server goes down
17:24	hyPiRion	you have to scale the thing
17:24	hyPiRion	+++
17:24	callen	muhoo: it's not that it's hard
17:24	callen	muhoo: it's making it reliable and having good deliverability with your mail server that is a pain.
17:24	muhoo	nightfly: i know, i'm one of the people who wrote himself a sucky one back then :-)
17:24	trptcolin	i guess it's like aphyr's series. if it doesn't have to get there, sure it can be easy.
17:24	callen	^^ that.
17:24	gfredericks	does anybody know about leiningen's tests wrt testing error message output?
17:25	gfredericks	it looks like it's just printing to stderr so I'm not sure how to expect on that
17:25	hyPiRion	gfredericks: binding [err out] (with-out-str ...
17:26	gfredericks	hyPiRion: I think this is running in a different jvm
17:26	hyPiRion	I think I made some in the core library
17:26	gfredericks	but I don't know for sure
17:26	hyPiRion	oh what
17:26	hyPiRion	That shouldn't matter, unless my pipes totally fail
17:26	gfredericks	it's the leiningen.test.run tests in particular
17:27	gfredericks	hyPiRion: why would binding err on my jvm do anything with the other one?
17:27	gfredericks	I don't think binding it on the other one is really an option
17:27	Raynes	callen: Kinda sorta not really on that one. A little too rough for my tastes.
17:29	muhoo	trptcolin: thanks for pointing me to aphyr. interesting stuff, interspersed with lulz: http://aphyr.com/data/posts/284/-055.jpg
17:29	callen	Raynes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZTpLvsYYHw
17:29	hyPiRion	gfredericks: maybe I misunderstand, but you're running the leiningen tests and want to make new tests which checks the error message output, right?
17:29	callen	muhoo: you really want to follow his stuff, it's solid.
17:29	Raynes	callen: Of course I like The Killers.
17:29	callen	Raynes: ok I'll move onto something less obvious.
17:29	Raynes	callen: I was just telling someone 5 minutes ago how much better Hot Fuss is than all their other albums. :p
17:29	callen	Raynes: slightly less obvious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQvZ4N1RfS8
17:30	callen	hitting Toronto scene indie after this one.
17:30	Raynes	I haven't been able to bring myself to like Arcade Fire, but I've never heard this one.
17:30	callen	Raynes: give it a whirl, it's anthemic ala Killers
17:30	Raynes	Are you my Pandora now?
17:30	callen	Raynes: yes
17:31	callen	Raynes: I've aggregated and listened to over a terabyte of music (and not all junky mixes, original content). I find things _
17:31	Raynes	I'm okay with that.
17:31	callen	______________________
17:31	callen	weavejester: how are you?
17:31	technomancy	new game music bundle is coming up in a few hours if you're into that kind of thing
17:31	Raynes	callen: I like this.
17:31	weavejester	callen: Huh?
17:32	technomancy	http://www.gamemusicbundle.com/
17:32	technomancy	they've had some fantastic offerings the past few times
17:32	Raynes	I'm not into game music.
17:32	Raynes	Not quite nerd enough.
17:32	callen	technomancy: there was this clicky adventure game that had an amazing soundtrack, it was part of the humble bundles.
17:32	technomancy	the scott pilgrim game soundtrack is the best possible music to hack to
17:33	callen	technomancy: I can't remember the name of it just this moment though. Do you know what I'm talking about?
17:33	callen	Raynes: I like game music simply because they're purpose-built for mood and very functional to that end.
17:33	callen	tend to be more consistent too.
17:33	Apage43	i listen to a lot of trailer music
17:34	gfredericks	hyPiRion: yes, the error message from the result of doing 'eval-in-project
17:34	gfredericks	indirectly
17:34	gfredericks	the test is just calling run
17:34	callen	Raynes: you should be about done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl3PyTqsc5c
17:35	gfredericks	hyPiRion: the call throws an ExceptionInfo but all it has is {:exit-code 1}
17:35	gfredericks	and I see the actual error message printed to presumably the STDERR of my process running the test
17:35	hyPiRion	oh durr. Let's see here.
17:35	callen	technomancy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machinarium
17:35	callen	technomancy: ^^ check out that soundtrack.
17:36	callen	Raynes: let me know how the BSS treats you.
17:38	hyPiRion	gfredericks: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/leiningen-core/test/leiningen/core/test/helper.clj
17:39	gfredericks	hyPiRion: so I'd use (abort-msg run the-project)?
17:40	callen	technomancy: retro game music no less. dis gon b gud
17:40	hyPiRion	yeah, presumably
17:41	hyPiRion	though that one only takes suppressed exits somehow
17:41	gfredericks	hrm....
17:42	gfredericks	testing leiningen is hard
17:43	gfredericks	oh eval-in-project apparently puts a lot of effort into this sort of thing already o_O
17:43	gfredericks	maybe I can just look to err
17:44	pjstadig	gfredericks: obviously you should be using simulation testing instead
17:45	pjstadig	i hear they're much better guard rails than unit tests
17:46	gfredericks	oh man that totes worked
17:46	gfredericks	(inc leiningen)
17:46	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:47	muhoo	i prefer jazz for coding, but if you want retro game music, and jazz, there's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNFQkgb9Ib8
17:47	callen	muhoo: way too kitschy.
17:50	bbloom	pjstadig: i know you were kidding, you should be using both… where appropriate :-)
17:51	bbloom	ie more overall testing, less skewed towards unit tests
17:52	pjstadig	i just do as the latest cargo culting fad tells me, you're saying that's not sufficient?
17:52	bbloom	right, you need to do what the three most recent cargo culting fads tell you!
17:53	callen	pjstadig: want some gasoline for that strawman?
17:53	callen	I have maaaatchessss
17:53	pjstadig	bbloom: only if that's what the latest cargo cult is preaching
17:53	bbloom	heh.
17:53	trptcolin	which segment of the ThoughtWorks Technology Radar can I review to find those?
17:53	pjstadig	trptcolin: strawmen or gasoline?
17:53	muhoo	http://blog.fogus.me/2012/06/20/not-enough/
17:54	trptcolin	pjstadig: ok, that's 2, what's the third?
17:54	callen	bbloom: next time you want to have a circlejerk in here, could you tell me ahead of time so I can remember to bring oil?
17:54	callen	bbloom: I'm unprepared for this man.
17:54	Raynes	callen: This song scares me.
17:54	callen	Raynes: GOOOOOOOD
17:54	callen	bbloom: it's going to be a mess by the time you and pjstadig finish.
17:55	Raynes	Taken out of context, that message is really sexy.
17:55	callen	Raynes: bbloom and pjstadig are having their 5 minutes of hate in public.
17:55	callen	Raynes: apparently "dem other peoples" are stupid and not to be trusted. And their ways are false.
17:55	muhoo	is it hate? sounds a bit more erotic to me
17:55	muhoo	in any case, i hope it stops soon.
17:56	callen	the best way to defuse hate is with sexy-times.
17:56	callen	see a nazi rally? strip down to undies and offer to dance with the participants.
17:56	bbloom	pjstadig: was there any hate? or sexy times? i'm confused. i thought we were having a few relatively friendly laughs… shrug
17:56	muhoo	naw, humor. my monitor has some coffee damage now due to your oil comment earlier
17:58	muhoo	ok, procrastinating. the friend workflow function is one of the most opaque things i've dealt with in a while.
17:58	callen	of course the Haskell people would make a DSL called Flask.
17:58	callen	Dicks.
17:59	muhoo	i've written one before, it worked, and i'm trying to write another one, and i'm completely lost.
17:59	callen	muhoo: see, this is why I don't use Friend. :\|
18:00	patchwork	Hmm…. latest clojure.java.jdbc borks with-naming-strategy
18:00	patchwork	Anyone else seen this?
18:00	muhoo	callen: what do you do instead?
18:00	patchwork	Or maybe I am the only one using with-naming-strategy
18:00	muhoo	callen: specifically, how do you deal with several auth methods which need to coexist in the same app?
18:00	callen	muhoo: wrap them myself, because I'm a big boy.
18:01	muhoo	callen: and then when you need to write another app that does the same thing?
18:01	callen	muhoo: this isn't hard stuff, it usually takes less time to write your own util or middleware fns than to sacrifice the right ordering of goats, doves, and cows to overbearing libraries.
18:01	callen	muhoo: well then you reuse the code. Something I do all the time.
18:01	callen	I've actually measured how much code I usually reuse across web projects in Clojure that I wrote, it's 60-80%
18:02	callen	slightly higher than it was in Flask
18:02	callen	much higher than in Django.
18:02	muhoo	do you deliver all that duplicated code to each client, each with their own copyright statement in it?
18:02	callen	I don't deliver Clojure code to clients
18:02	callen	my consulting hasn't hit upon a clojure gig yet. (fingers crossed)
18:03	callen	reifying the utility stuff I write into libraries would be strange.
18:03	callen	some of it I might consider cleaning up for libnoir.
18:03	muhoo	huh. what do you write in usually?
18:04	callen	muhoo: whatever the client needs. I'm a polyglot in the extreme.
18:04	callen	it's bad for my long term development, but I'm a mercenary.
18:04	callen	that's why I focus on Clojure on my own time, so I don't become completely retarded.
18:06	muhoo	well i have become allergic to libraries and inclined to DIY, but with something like auth, i'd rather abstract it out into something i can reuse. and friend is already there, so why not contribute to it, is how i look at it.
18:07	callen	muhoo: uhm, I would agree but you aren't going to get him to change the design/overbearing nature of Friend
18:07	callen	adding more code won't unfuck it.
18:07	callen	the solution is a library that's less obnoxious to work with, but still abstracts the unnecessary details of the problem
18:07	muhoo	that'd be nice, i agree.
18:09	muhoo	i'd have to wonder if it'd be more work than just dealing with this one weird function in friend.
18:10	callen	muhoo: "ONE WEIRD TIP TO LOSE WEIGHT IN YOUR CLOJURE CODE"
18:10	muhoo	???
18:10	lazybot	muhoo: Oh, absolutely.
18:13	muhoo	callen: anyway, if you feel like writing an alternative to friend, great, i'll try it out and pitch in to add features if i end up using it.
18:13	muhoo	but for now... this is what i gots.
18:16	callen	muhoo: I'd not likely bother unless I picked up a contract doing Clojure, but I'll ping you if it happens regardless.
18:17	arohner	is there a library out there that pretty prints persistent queues?
18:21	pppaul	how do i add content type for pedestal responses?
18:34	gfredericks	technomancy: w00t got a test/patch
18:41	amalloy	arohner: (defmethod print-method ...)
18:41	arohner	amalloy: yup. just checking to see if someone did that, and made a nice constructor, etc
18:41	amalloy	you could bundle it up in a library, but then any two such libraries can't help but step on each others' toes
18:42	arohner	that would be a concern, if there was more than one :-)
18:42	amalloy	fwiw, useful has a constructor for it: https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/utils.clj#L144
18:54	gzmask	cljs-build giving me No implementation of method: :as-file of protocol error. anyone?
18:58	amalloy	~helpme
18:58	clojurebot	A bug report (or other request for help) has three parts: What you did; what you expected to happen; what happened instead. If any of those three are missing, it's awfully hard to help you.
19:29	alandipert	bbloom: have you noticed equiv being way slower on firefox in your cljs perf laboratory?
19:39	aphyr	Is there a good way to figure out what part of lein compile is slow?
19:40	aphyr	Been trying strace and jvisualvm but nothing really obvious is coming out of it
19:40	pandeiro	math.combinatorics is dangerous if you're in nrepl and not on a super computer...
19:46	pandeiro	anyone got an estimate how many 6-char combinations are possible with upper and lower case alphanumeric? or how i can figure that out?
19:49	antares_	pandeiro: with or without repetition?
19:50	brehaut	its n! / (k! * (n - k)!)
19:50	amalloy	$google combinations permutations
19:50	lazybot	[Combinations and Permutations - Math is Fun] http://www.mathsisfun.com/combinatorics/combinations-permutations.html
19:51	pandeiro	antares_: actually yeah i would mean selections i guess, with repetition
19:55	hyPiRion	pandeiro: n^6 where n = is the amount of characters
19:56	hyPiRion	so 52^6
19:57	pandeiro	hyPiRion: yeah, 62 [A-Za-z0-9]
19:57	hyPiRion	yeah, forgot about those nums
19:57	pandeiro	hyPiRion: that seems intuitive... why would i need to take the factorials of everything?
19:58	pandeiro	(reading the article amalloy posted)
19:58	amalloy	factorials would answer a different question, because "6-char combinations" is ambiguous
19:58	pandeiro	is 'selections' the math word?
19:59	pandeiro	for repetitive combinations?
19:59	lynaghk	aphyr: if you are trying to optimize clojure compilation, I would talk to sattvik_, who has done a lot of work to use Clojure on Android
20:00	aphyr	I know it's using the disk a ton--5 MB/s sustained for 30 seconds
20:01	lynaghk	aphyr: dang. I wish I could help, but I don't know much about Java Clojure compiler internals
20:01	alandipert	aphyr: are you AOTing for interop, obfuscation, perf, or other?
20:02	alandipert	(if for perf, AOT generally not the way ime)
20:02	aphyr	Naw, I need AOT to generate a jar
20:03	alandipert	can't just put clj source in the jar and let it dyn-pile?
20:03	aphyr	Not sure, really. It complains it can't find a class if I do that.
20:04	aphyr	It's all writes--I think maybe it's just stuck writing class files to disk
20:05	technomancy	aphyr: what kind of jar?
20:05	aphyr	Well, eventually I build a fat jar
20:05	technomancy	if boot time isn't a concern you can usually piggyback on clojure.main with -m
20:05	aphyr	but even lein clean, lein repl takes like a full minute now
20:06	technomancy	strongly recommend not doing AOT during dev if possible
20:08	aphyr	Hmm. If I comment out :aot [riemann.bin] in project.clj, it complains ClassNotFoundException: riemann.bin, compiling:(riemann.bin/clj:18)
20:08	aphyr	That's at the REPL
20:08	technomancy	using gen-class?
20:08	aphyr	Yeah
20:08	technomancy	oh, ok then
20:08	aphyr	May be because I actually refer to riemann.bin on that line
20:08	technomancy	can't avoid AOT if you need gen-class
20:09	aphyr	Yeah, and I need gen-class to build runnable jars
20:09	technomancy	you mean for java -jar?
20:09	aphyr	yeah
20:09	technomancy	have you tried java -cp whatevs.jar clojure.main -m riemann.main?
20:10	hyPiRion	pandeiro: it's common to just say with or without replacement
20:11	hyPiRion	where "without replacement" means that once you've used an element, you cannot reuse it
20:11	technomancy	lein trampling
20:11	aphyr	hmm, well, disabling aot means it doesn't get bogged down writing to disk
20:11	aphyr	but it still takes pretty much as long to load the repl
20:12	technomancy	then it's out of my hands =\
20:12	aphyr	maybe ~25% faster, it's a start...
20:13	technomancy	lein 2.2 will let you set :aot just in the :uberjar profile, if that'll help
20:13	aphyr	Yeah, sounds like.
20:13	aphyr	Still wish I knew what was making it so slow
20:14	technomancy	compy layshun
20:14	aphyr	used to be much faster, haha
20:14	aphyr	Something changed at some point
20:30	technomancy	not if IRC isn't media
20:34	flu-	or is this a media fast like a juice fast, i.e., all you will do is consumer news and media
20:34	flu-	*consume
20:55	jcromartie	technomancy: IRC doens't count
20:55	jcromartie	flu-: hah, that sounds terrible :)
20:56	jcromartie	near-real-time interaction with people (not in comments sections) doesn't count
20:56	jcromartie	I mean media published in a top-down/broadcast fashion: news (incl. aggregators), blogs
20:57	callen	jcromartie: it does seem rather time-wastey doesn't it?
20:57	callen	jcromartie: I like the idea.
20:58	jcromartie	it stresses me out just to read headlines… I feel the effect on my body
20:58	jcromartie	but it's addictive to get that hit of novelty
20:58	jcromartie	to think that somewhere out there, just around the next link, is that new bit of information that will change everything!
20:59	jcromartie	some major event that means everything is different now: either SHTF, or we've stumbled on a real utopia
21:00	jcromartie	or some programming language or technique that will finally solve all the problems of software development: do it in no time, with no bugs, and it can be changed on a whim
21:00	jcromartie	those things don't exist, but your mind wants to believe that they do
21:01	jcromartie	</rant>
21:01	callen	jcromartie: I've experienced the same things. right down the list.
21:02	jcromartie	:) well I'm glad I'm not just crazy, then
21:02	jcromartie	or at least we both are
21:02	callen	jcromartie: including that feeling of stress, right in your chest, from reading a headline.
21:03	callen	jcromartie: incidentally, I have the same reaction listening to NPR sometimes because of some cultural disparity on my part.
21:03	jcromartie	http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0047189
21:04	jcromartie	that study only concluded a correlation for women
21:08	xeqi	Raynes: needed a gravatar lib and found clavatar, thanks
21:08	callen	jcromartie: I find HN to be distressing even if I agree with the general sentiment of a particular thread.
21:14	callen	yogthos: ping
21:24	pandeiro	can anyone show me how'd connect to the drawbridge repl in the vanilla heroku lein template app?
21:25	gfredericks	hyPiRion: woah man you are some kind of leiningen admin or something
21:25	gfredericks	hyPiRion: did the commit look sane?
21:25	hyPiRion	gfredericks: yeah, I looked at it
21:25	hyPiRion	Looked sane from my point of view. :)
21:26	gfredericks	phew
21:26	trptcolin	gfredericks / hyPiRion: this is a breaking change, right?
21:26	pandeiro	`REPL_USER=a REPL_PASSWORD=b lein run` (with app.web added as :main) and then `lein repl :connect a:b@localhost:5000/repl` ?
21:26	gfredericks	trptcolin: for an undocumented feature, yes
21:26	trptcolin	e.g. reply's :main is just ReplyMain
21:26	trptcolin	and now fails
21:26	gfredericks	oh noes!
21:27	trptcolin	i mean, i can personally deal, no big deal. but i hack on lein.
21:28	trptcolin	so i'm not sure how many folks will see issues
21:28	hyPiRion	well, I never thought it would break anything not already broken
21:28	cemerick	pandeiro: need http://
21:28	trptcolin	what is the recommended :main option for a java main?
21:28	hyPiRion	didn't realize it broke working stuff
21:28	gfredericks	trptcolin: I don't know of one
21:29	pandeiro	cemerick: ha. thanks
21:29	pandeiro	got spoiled with curl
21:29	trptcolin	i'm not 100% opposed, just want to make sure we think it through before we push out 2.2.0
21:29	gfredericks	I didn't feel qualified to assess the issue; I just deferred to the thumbs up from phil
21:29	gfredericks	I should find that to make sure I didn't misinterpret
21:30	hyPiRion	trptcolin: Yeah, I think `lein run` should run java mains without issue too.
21:30	gfredericks	what error should be shown if both fail?
21:31	hyPiRion	gfredericks: "Nobody here but us chickens"
21:32	gfredericks	well my motivation for this is that when your main ns fails to load it shows a ClassNotFoundException
21:32	gfredericks	which is terribly misleading
21:33	gfredericks	trptcolin: hyPiRion: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2013-05-21.html#14:22b
21:33	trptcolin	heh, the awful hack i'm imagining is branching on the first letter being upper-case/lower-case
21:33	gfredericks	looks like he had a couple ideas for other ways to do it
21:33	gfredericks	a plugin or a different option than -m
21:34	trptcolin	i like that. -m for an ns, -something-else for a class.
21:35	gfredericks	-c ?
21:36	gfredericks	trptcolin: that wouldn't allow you to put :main ReplyMain in your project.clj though, eh?
21:36	hyPiRion	gfredericks: :main-class
21:36	gfredericks	ah ha
21:37	trptcolin	right. again, not that it's an issue for me personally, but we can keep using that as an example, that's fine.
21:37	gfredericks	dangit now I need to write moar tests
21:37	trptcolin	there was a related issue where we were thinking of making :main have nothing to do w/ the starting repl ns
21:37	trptcolin	but i seem to recall we decided to hold off for 3.0
21:38	gfredericks	oh
21:38	gfredericks	right
21:39	trptcolin	i guess we really oughta move this into #leiningen
21:40	hyPiRion	Oh hah
21:40	callen	I forgot that was a thing.
21:40	hyPiRion	I thought we were in #leiningen
21:44	bttf	is there a way i can insert an element in between the elements of a vector, such as [1 2 3] into [1 a 2 a 3]
21:44	gfredericks	bttf: not efficiently
21:44	gfredericks	you can interleave and get a seq
21:45	gfredericks	and throw that back into a vector if you really want to
21:45	bttf	well i have a (str "With different sentences." "Like this." "And I'd like to get a space in between each string programmatically")
21:45	gfredericks	you want a string output?
21:45	callen	bttf: join?
21:46	bttf	i have string output but
21:46	gfredericks	&(clojure.string/join " " ["some sentences." "in a vector." "like this."])
21:46	lazybot	⇒ "some sentences. in a vector. like this."
21:46	bttf	,(str "These strings have" "no spaces inbetween")
21:46	clojurebot	"These strings haveno spaces inbetween"
21:46	bttf	cool
21:46	bttf	thx
21:56	akurilin	Quick question. Say I have a ref whose value I want to double-check, and if it matches a certain condition, I need to update it. Is dereferencing the ref inside the dosync the way I would handle the initial check of the value?
21:57	gfredericks	akurilin: I believe so
21:58	hyPiRion	akurilin: use ensure to avoid other transactions to update the value of said ref
21:58	brehaut	if its important that you dont change it when the predicate doesnt match then yeah
21:59	hyPiRion	i.e. ##(let [a (ref {})] (dosync (ensure a)))
21:59	lazybot	⇒ {}
21:59	hyPiRion	if you just use @ref, the value may be updated if the transaction is retried
22:00	akurilin	Does dosync retry? I must have misread this, I thought this happened only for atmos.
22:00	akurilin	*atoms
22:01	gfredericks	it does
22:01	akurilin	That was actually why I didn't want to work with swap! since I have a counter in the value I'm working with, and so retries would totally break that.
22:03	gfredericks	you can't use atoms because the atom would have a counter?
22:04	akurilin	As I said, I must have misread how the different concurrent types work.
22:04	hyPiRion	akurilin: a dosync may be retried, yes, but they won't update any reference twice
22:04	akurilin	hyPiRion, so what you're saying is that something like "alter" will only be called once at most?
22:05	muhoo	ddellacosta: that was an interesting collision
22:05	hyPiRion	for instance, (dosync (alter a + 1) (println "heyooo") (alter b * 3)) may print "heyooo" multiple times, but a will only be incremented at most 1 from this transaction, and b will only be multiplied by 3
22:05	gfredericks	akurilin: they can be called several times, but if they're pure functions then it doesn't hurt anything
22:06	ddellacosta	muhoo: what do you mean, sorry?
22:06	muhoo	ddellacosta: https://github.com/ddellacosta/friend-oauth2/pull/8
22:06	muhoo	ya
22:06	ddellacosta	oh, haha!
22:06	ddellacosta	muhoo: yes, thanks for those changes, really awesome. Sorry I just updated everything yesterday! Murphy's law.
22:06	muhoo	sorry, it seems we were working on the exact same stuff at the exact same time, in never expected that.
22:07	ddellacosta	it is as the Universe ordained. Or, more likely, random coincidence.
22:07	muhoo	quntum entanglement.
22:07	akurilin	gfredericks, in hyPiRion's example, wouldn't altering ref a and b be considered a side-effect?
22:07	gfredericks	no
22:07	gfredericks	that's controlled by the transaction
22:08	muhoo	ddelacosta: well i made the changes because i didn't understand what was going on, and needed to. now i'm looking at a hairy merge, and i'm lost again.
22:08	gfredericks	akurilin: i.e., the transaction is watching for those and can "undo" them before it retries
22:08	akurilin	gfredericks, Ah perfect. I'm assumign it'll also make sure to use the latest values of a and be as well.
22:09	ddellacosta	muhoo: well, the updates you made to the arguments are great, and I like some of the other clean-up you made. I was actually in the midst of a merge when I realized you were on an older branch. So, I don't know if you want to go through the effort again, but I would certainly appreciate it. I mean, even if you see stuff in the new code that could be nicer. Not that I want to dump all that work on you…heh.
22:09	gfredericks	akurilin: yep
22:09	callen	muhoo: is this what you were referring to earlier?
22:09	muhoo	ddellacosta: that might be best then. what i did won't apply cleanly, but i could manually redo it
22:09	ddellacosta	muhoo: sorry. :-(
22:10	muhoo	callen: friend/oauth2
22:10	akurilin	gfredericks, and so, is the difference with swap! that swap! simply doesn't care about preventing the side-effect, unlike dosync?
22:10	gfredericks	akurilin: no, it's that it's not coordinated with other atoms
22:10	gfredericks	so you don't need a transaction at all
22:10	callen	which is preferable, when applicable.
22:10	gfredericks	it still can be retried and should therefore be side-effect-free
22:10	gfredericks	so if you're using just one ref then you probably could use an atom instead
22:12	callen	gfredericks: or put differently, if you don't need to coordinate changes across your atoms, you don't need ref.
22:12	muhoo	ddellacosta: tis all good. i guess my fault for not checking first.
22:12	akurilin	gfredericks, got it! Perfect.
22:13	ddellacosta	muhoo: not at all. Thanks again for taking the time!
22:14	gfredericks	akurilin: counters are the classic example of atom usage
22:14	akurilin	Is there actually a safe way of pulling off that "check condition and modify" with an atom, or would only ref fit in this case?
22:14	gfredericks	the swap function you provide can see the current value of the atom
22:15	brehaut	akurilin: if you hoist the check inside the function you pass to the atom, then it can safely be done attomically
22:15	akurilin	Oh actually there's compare-and-set for very simple cases
22:16	brehaut	Hoist the Cheque
22:20	akurilin	brehaut, sounds good
22:32	konr	What was that function that could slice seqs as in (mysterious-function [1 2 3 4] 2) -> [[1 2] [3 4]]?
22:32	amalloy	$findfn 2 [1 2 3 4] [[1 2] [3 4]]
22:33	lazybot	[clojure.core/split-at clojure.core/partition-all clojure.core/partition]
22:33	egghead	wut
22:33	konr	thanks! didn't know of that bot
22:33	egghead	what just happened
22:33	amalloy	akurilin: if you go to the effort of making c-a-s useful, you'll have just reinvented swap!
22:36	akurilin	amalloy, definitely not in the reinventing business right now, I'll stick to swap! :)
22:40	konr	$findfn [1] 0 [0 1 0]
22:40	lazybot	[]
22:40	konr	$findfn 0 [1] [0 1 0]
22:41	lazybot	[]
22:42	amalloy	konr: are you looking for like..."add on both ends"? there are no built-in collection types for which that is efficient
22:43	konr	amalloy: yes, I think I'll have to use (concat [0] foo [0]) :(
22:44	gfredericks	finger trees?
22:44	gfredericks	I guess they're not quite "built in"
22:44	amalloy	konr: are you trying to build pascal's triangle?
22:45	konr	amalloy: something similar :)
22:46	gfredericks	pascal's wide triangle
22:48	bbloom	alandipert: firefox is generally much slower than v8 for cljs
22:48	bbloom	alandipert: dnolen is the man to ask though
22:49	brehaut	bbloom, alandipert: i recall dnolen was submitting tickets to firefox about that just the other day
22:51	bbloom	http://www.50ply.com/cljs-bench/
22:51	brehaut	https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=874174
22:51	bbloom	i don't see equiv in those benchmarks though, probably should be there
22:52	bbloom	we do, however, need to add a fast path for equiv. clojure has one for strings, numbers, etc, that cljs doesn't have yet
22:52	bbloom	that work is behind reified keywords, i think
22:52	brehaut	http://jsperf.com/objmap-vs-persistentarraymap-assoc-7kv
22:53	bbloom	dnolen told me that major cljs development is basically driven by whenever he and i can find a day to hack together :-) we've mentioned starting a google hangout to try to increase the number of "deep" contributors
22:55	bbloom	alandipert: equiv is a particular issue for arraymap, if that's a NEW problem that you're encountering. dnolen has some notes here: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/08489f39060be1097fa23abc8d5042c86e68dd4d
22:56	bbloom	alandipert: brehaut: if either of you want to take a crack at the equiv fast-paths, i'd be happy to help point you in the right direction
22:57	bbloom	hint: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Util.java#L24-L40
22:58	bbloom	brehaut: thanks, that's an interesting thread
22:58	brehaut	no problem.
23:00	tomoj	bbloom: so do you understand yet how you're supposed to use channels?
23:02	tomoj	like a process is (fn [in out]) or something?
23:02	bbloom	tomoj: only theoretically. it's the same design patterns as golang (mostly)
23:03	bbloom	your code that writes to/from channels is just gonna look more procedural… get over it :-)
23:04	tomoj	yeah I just haven't been able to build/imagine a single thing I thought was a good example of core.async's intended usage
23:04	tomoj	I haven't used alt at all for example
23:04	bbloom	go emulate the mini google search example from rob pike's talk
23:05	bbloom	maybe that will make it click
23:05	tomoj	I've been trying to make (fn fork [in out1 out2]) but can't make it work
23:06	tomoj	I don't see how to deal with close! at all either
23:06	tomoj	(fn fork [in] [out1 out2]) with auto-closing makes sense, but that doesn't seem to fit csp
23:11	bbloom	i haven't tried it yet, so i dunno for sure
23:12	tomoj	not sure if go is a good model. hoare neither. and the slides rich linked to 404'd :)
23:35	tomoj	the google query thing doesn't seem like a good fit
23:35	tomoj	or at least, it needs major translation I think
23:44	tomoj	bbloom: https://www.refheap.com/paste/ed841903a7ea3e9f05b9087a2 hmm
23:45	tomoj	broken