#clojure – 2013-05-02

2013-05-02

00:00	pl6306	Yup
00:00	uvtc	SegFaultAX: right. metellus pointed that out a bit earlier. I meant, "in Clojure". But, yes, you're right.
00:00	uvtc	SegFaultAX: thanks.
00:00	pl6306	Process and ProcessBuilder?
00:00	SegFaultAX	uvtc: How is that not "in clojure"
00:01	n_b	pl6306: There's also clojure.java.shell, not sure how much you need to do
00:02	uvtc	SegFaultAX: I was looking for something along the lines of `(index-of some-coll some-val)`. Though, just now I see that .indexOf is right there on the cheatsheet...
00:03	pl6306	Thanks I will give clojure.java.shell a try
00:05	akhudek	it's interesting that subs exists in clojure, despite .substring, but this is not the case for some other functions
00:09	uvtc	Anyhow, I'm glad to see (once again, in fact) that what I thought required a clunky solution actually had a built-in solution already that works nicely.
00:11	uvtc	metellus: for the record, if you're backlogging: https://www.refheap.com/paste/14126
00:24	gdev	lazybot: whatis he talking about
00:24	lazybot	he is talkin bout my g-g-g-generation
02:32	amalloy	uvtc: anytime you work with indexes in clojure, your brain should be screaming "do we really need to use indexes?" remove-one-from is so much easier to write, and more efficient, without any indexes
02:35	amalloy	he's gone, i guess, but for anyone following along at home, https://gist.github.com/amalloy/5500495
02:40	noidi	you could replace the let with destructuring to make it even simpler: (when-let [[x & xs] coll] ...)
02:49	amalloy	noidi: you could, but that's a bad habit to get into
02:50	amalloy	because that will force realization of the first two elements in coll, not just the first one
02:50	amalloy	(since destructuring & uses next, not rest)
02:55	noidi	aren't you realizing xs anyway in the body?
02:56	noidi	ah no, not in the else block
02:56	noidi	amalloy, I hadn't thought about that, good to know, thanks
02:57	amalloy	noidi: i don't realize xs in either side of the if
02:57	amalloy	rest is lazy
02:57	noidi	ah, right
02:58	noidi	and with chunking that extra evaluation could be quite expensive
02:58	noidi	*realization
02:58	noidi	in case x is the last element of a chunk
02:59	amalloy	shrug even without chunking
02:59	amalloy	you don't want to eagerly realize one too many elements of the ackermann sequence
02:59	noidi	hehe
03:00	amalloy	anyway, i wrote a lot of lazy-sequence functions with [x & xs], and it took me a long time to realize they were therefore all broken
03:00	noidi	why does it use next instead of rest?
03:00	amalloy	probably legacy reasons, from back when there was no lazy rest
03:01	amalloy	so people wrote code like (let [[x & xs] coll] (if xs ...))
03:01	Apage43	it also will guarantee xs is nil if there is no more stuff left, if you're checking that
03:01	amalloy	Apage43: right, which IMO is a bad guarantee to make, except that it has to stay in because of legacy
05:05	clgv	is there a clojure bug with respect to type inference for primtives regarding the `cond` macro?
05:16	amalloy	that's not possible, clgv. cond is just a macro expanding to nested ifs, and any inferencing is performed on the expanded form
05:17	clgv	amalloy: ok then this is pretty strange. I get an autoboxing warning from recur when using `cond` but not when I write those nested `if` statements manually
05:43	no7hing	having a small problem with protocols: define a protocol in ns A, require it in ns B, compiler tells me it can't resolve it
06:02	antares_	no7hing: how do you require it? You should just require a namespace. Are you trying to extend it in another ns?
06:03	no7hing	i required the ns the protocol was defined in; with (:use [the.ns :only [TheProtocol]]) it works
06:04	no7hing	that i have to require the ns either way too, was kind of ..surprising
06:08	djcoin	Hi folks, i'm not in clojure right now. But i had a question, it is really appealing to see such a language (flexbility but performance thx to the jvm, simplicity etc. compilation to javascript, etc.).
06:09	djcoin	But isn't it too hard to code without any types ?
06:09	djcoin	Given immutability/performance, I would be tempted by haskell too (yet laziness is a bit scary)
06:10	djcoin	+ Types and compilation makes code fast, I wonder if layers and layers of untyped clojure code can not alter performance
06:10	djcoin	ANy hints ?
06:11	ucb	djcoin: you can provide type hints to speed things up a tad; but it might just be that you're preemtively worrying for no good reason :)
06:11	ucb	djcoin: in a word: speed is not /normally/ a problem, and when it is, I've not seen it be because of the lack of types (although reflection can be a bitch sometimes)
06:12	ucb	(lack of types is wrong; dynamic types more like it)
06:12	djcoin	yeah, that's what i meant
06:12	djcoin	What about "programming in the large", librairies and stuff. Wouldn't types help to structure things up ?
06:13	djcoin	(even if GC + immutability are already key points)
06:13	ucb	yes and no. If you have too many types then it gets a bit silly. If everything is a string, it also gets silly.
06:17	djcoin	ucb: sure, but I'm doing mostly javascript/nodejs those times (before python, i did too a bit of C/Java) but i'm beginning to be tired by types errors. + Finding a lib (especially in javascript I guess) can be cumbersome. When I see stuff like hoogle for haskell (google for types), I see this as really helping building abstraction too
06:18	antares_	no7hing: you don't need refer to the protocol unless you want to extend it. Simply use functions defined in it as if they were regular functions in the ns.
06:19	antares_	no7hing: if you need to extend a protocol from another ns, see https://github.com/clojurewerkz/money/blob/master/src/clojure/clojurewerkz/money/hiccup.clj for a small example
06:22	noidi	djcoin, there are efforts to add static typing to clojure https://github.com/clojure/core.typed
06:23	djcoin	noidi: yeah I saw that, inspired by typed racket, it looks nice. Wonder how far you can go with it
06:27	no7hing	@antares_: that's what i was trying to do, after i had issues using a record that was implementing the protocol; i moved the record definition to the ns where it's actually used and ran into the require/use issues; will take a deeper look into this in a calm hour today
06:28	arcatan
06:28	naeg	How can I modify existing functions using macros? e.g. add another argument to that function, modify a function call inside that function
06:29	noidi	djcoin, by all means, check out haskell as well if it seems more appealing to you
06:29	noidi	personally I found clojure much less daunting
06:29	naeg	basically, I want to do this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/14113
06:29	noidi	and I really like the REPL-centric workflow that Clojure provides
06:29	no7hing	@antares_: is there a preferred way on wether to :use or :import protocols?
06:29	djcoin	noidi: I fear a bit haskell for its laziness (and space leaks)
06:30	antares_	no7hing: you simply need to require the namespace
06:30	noidi	djcoin, Clojure's laziness can trip you up as well, although only sequences are lazy by default
06:30	antares_	no7hing: when extending, refer to a protocol as if it was a function, using the ns prefix you used in require + /ProtocolName
06:31	antares_	imports are necessary for records
06:31	antares_	because records are compiled to Java classes
06:31	antares_	:use should be avoided if you use Cloure 1.4+, see http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/namespaces.html
06:32	no7hing	@antares_: when mixing that up, it looks like it's time for a break; thanks for helping
06:33	no7hing	@antares_: once you do it right, it just works
06:34	djcoin	noidi: I guess you chose clojure over haskell, what are the tradesoff if I may ?
06:36	antares_	djcoin: running on the JVM/.NET/JavaScript is by far the biggest trade-off (both a pro and a con). Learning curve in haskell is very steep, even for basic things like working with I/O and JSON, you have to have some understanding of monads and advanced control structures.
06:36	noidi	what antares_ said :)
06:37	djcoin	antares_: but if you do understand how to code the haskell way (monads and stuff), i mean, putting aside the learning curve
06:38	djcoin	To be fair, the JVM ecosystem (java, xml etc.) is not very appealing to me, but i see how a super optimized jvm and using java to code the low level stuff can be great
06:38	djcoin	+ well, the types :s
06:39	antares_	djcoin: with deep understanding of either, what matters the most is library availability, operations tooling (that haskell lacks) and if your problem can be better expressed in a DSL vs type system
06:40	antares_	djcoin: unless your program is hundreds of thousands of lines or requires numerical computations efficiency, I don't think the static vs dynamic typing debate is very relevant
06:40	noidi	I work at a (mostly) Java shop, and I can imagine getting to work with Clojure in a year or two (we already have a couple of Clojure projects, sadly I'm not in one of them)
06:40	antares_	it's great to have static type checking and type inference. It's not a deal breaker for me.
06:40	noidi	on the other hand, there's a zero chance of the company moving to Haskell
06:41	antares_	noidi: in that case Scala is what you want
06:41	antares_	kinda the middle ground
06:41	antares_	and also a bag of compromises, but Java shops find it appealing most of the time
06:41	noidi	I don't :)
06:41	djcoin	antares_: Thanks for your answer, what do you mean by "operations tooling" ?
06:42	antares_	if you like Haskell, I think there's quite a bit you will like about Scala
06:42	antares_	djcoin: tools like visualvm, jstack, metrics libraries, JMX, JVM-specific profiling and monitoring
06:42	antares_	dtrace support
06:42	noidi	I'm really a Clojure guy at heart, and I've only looked at Haskell and Scala out of curiosity
06:43	antares_	haskell very much lacks all of this stuff
06:43	noidi	I do miss static typing from time to time, but for me that's not a big enough reason to give up all of Clojure's dynamic, malleable goodness
06:43	djcoin	Sure
06:45	djcoin	antares_: isn't all those tools (the whole env) adding a lot to the learning curve ?
06:46	antares_	djcoin: you don't need them initially but it's scary to go into production without them
06:46	djcoin	(this is the same for all languages I guess - but does it integrate well with clojure ?)
06:46	antares_	and something like jstack or visualvm can be learned in an hour
06:46	antares_	visualvm and jstack work great with clojure
06:48	noidi	antares_, do you use Scala much? I think I remember seeing some Scala libraries by you, but I might be mistaken...
06:49	antares_	noidi: I used to, then switched to Clojure
06:49	antares_	Scala in 2007-2009 was a very different ecosystem. Binary compatibility and upgrades were total hell.
06:49	djcoin	Thanks antares_ , did you try haskell haskell, would you recommend it ? I guess not if you say operational tools are missing
06:50	antares_	djcoin: I like haskell but would highly recommend taking the learning curve and ops tools availability into account
06:52	djcoin	antares_: talking about ops tool, I guess Erlang must be a great fit
06:53	jjl`	presumably the ops tools are so great that someone wrote erjang to get worse ops tools for the jvm...
06:53	djcoin	:)
06:54	djcoin	MAybe the "port" is not good itself
06:54	antares_	djcoin: Erlang has a good story there. But these tools are not nearly as well known.
06:55	antares_	jjl`: AFAIK erjang was developed as an experiment
06:56	jjl`	i think so. but i'm pretty sure the JVM's ops stuff was the reason for it
06:56	noidi	djcoin, here's something to watch while you're procrastinating on the language choice :) http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html
06:56	jjl`	i mean erlang is FAST. they didn't need to move it to the jvm for performance
06:56	djcoin	noidi: yeah, i'm always weighting pros and cons
06:56	djcoin	thanks :)
06:59	djcoin	jjl`: oh I did not understand, I thought they coded some "erlang like" ops tools, in fact no, they port the whole vm oO a bit crazy
07:01	djcoin	Do you need to deal with (is it better to have some (extensive) knowledge of) java and its environment, do go for Clojure ?
07:01	djcoin	in "real world clojure"
07:02	noidi	yes, you pretty much need to know Java
07:03	jjl`	well, some of it
07:03	jjl`	more about the stack as a whole than java the language
07:03	antares_	jjl`: no, erlang is not fast on computational workloads. Faster than Ruby and Python but that's nothing to be proud of :)
07:03	jjl`	antares_: i can compute in my head faster than ruby
07:04	antares_	jjl`: can't we all
07:04	djcoin	Yeah, well i know a bit of java, i know what the jvm is, but I don't know how deep the "java" stack goes and if you need to reach for it regularly
07:04	noidi	core parts of Clojure use things like Readers, so it certainly helps if you can read enough Java to understand documentation explaining them
07:05	antares_	djcoin: it's a well known fact that some of the most famous Clojure community members don't know much Java but did pick up some JDK bits and concepts :)
07:05	noidi	if you can more or less understand what's going on when reading a random snippet of Java, you'll probably do fine
07:06	djcoin	ok good :)
07:06	antares_	binary vs char streams is a great example
07:06	jjl`	most of it is the java libraries really. you'll use them a lot in clojure
07:06	djcoin	Yeah, i'm a bit afraid of using clojure as a combiner of java lib
07:06	djcoin	(don't why I should though)
07:07	djcoin	s/should/am
07:07	jjl`	clojure that uses java libs tends to be a bit ugly. java libraries are generally very much written for the imperative style
07:08	lucian	there are wrappers for most things you'd care about, though
07:09	lucian	my problem is the jvm itself, way too slow for development
07:09	jjl`	indeed. and a wrapper waiting to be written for the rest
07:09	lucian	i'm also much too comfortable with python
07:09	lucian	jjl`: luckily they're trivial to write compared to binding to C from Python/Ruby
07:09	jjl`	yes, quite
07:10	jjl`	but i come from perl where there's never a need because someone else has done it already
07:10	lucian	there are certainly advantages, but whenever i start to do something in clojure i get too annoyed at the jvm being slow
07:10	lucian	jjl`: it would be as much of an issue with perl for custom things, though
07:11	djcoin	how slow ? you mean at startup ? because otherwise it should be fast no ?
07:11	jjl`	worse. have you ever written XS?!
07:12	arcatan	yeah, the startup time of JVM is pretty bad. you don't want to be restarting it just to reload code.
07:13	jjl`	have you tried using -Xint to make it run in interpreted mode?
07:14	jjl`	not something you'd want to do for production, but for dev...
07:15	djcoin	lucian: so how slow for dev ?
07:16	lucian	djcoin: at least on my machine, it takes seconds to boot up
07:16	antares_	in Clojure, you will eventually use a long-running REPL from emacs/vim/IDE
07:16	antares_	and discover drip
07:16	lucian	whereas, say, python, is instant
07:16	lucian	antares_: even with drip, it still takes more than 1sec
07:17	antares_	note that Clojure code is compiled when it is loaded
07:17	lucian	even lein's help command takes 3-5sec :(
07:17	antares_	it's not a JVM problem. But that's also why Clojure doesn't suffer from the binary compatibility hell nearly as much as most compiled languages.
07:17	antares_	lucian: lein help is the worst case, it has to load all the plugins first
07:18	antares_	to display help for them
07:18	djcoin	yeah lein help is pretty daunting
07:18	djcoin	dauting *
07:18	lucian	i'm pretty sure it's a jvm problem, i've had the same issue with plain java
07:18	djcoin	sry daunting*
07:18	lucian	i think its class loading is broken
07:19	naeg	how to get the name of a function with the namespace? e.g. #'f gives #'namespace/f, but I just want "f"
07:19	naeg	splitting at / seems cumbersome to me
07:19	lucian	djcoin: so if you can put up with that, it's probably fine
07:20	lucian	for me there aren't enough advantages over python to be motivated to put up with it :)
07:21	djcoin	lucian: parallel/concurrent programming, immutability, flexibility, functional style ?
07:21	djcoin	and perf
07:21	djcoin	:)
07:22	Apage43	naeg, the var will have :name in its metadata
07:22	lucian	djcoin: the first is less of an issue than one might think, second is meh, third is not the case, fourth i have enough of to be satisfied already
07:23	lucian	actually, i like immutability a bit more than 'meh'
07:23	Apage43	&(:name (meta #'map))
07:23	lazybot	⇒ map
07:23	djcoin	I say simple and true flexibility, without weird lamba and metaclass
07:24	Apage43	if you have a var for some reason and want the name
07:26	lucian	djcoin: expression lambda and metaclasses are fine for me. i prefer traits/typeclasses/protocols to classes/meta, but i the benefit is not large enough
08:51	gdev	lazybot: fortune
08:51	lazybot	the impedance of mismatch is all your fault
08:52	gdev	=[
08:56	xumingmingv	lazybot: future
08:56	xumingmingv	lazybot: fortune
08:56	lazybot	,(println "PRIVMSG #hackerschool :herp")
08:56	clojurebot	PRIVMSG #hackerschool :herp\n
08:58	gdev	lazybot: whatis (+2_2)
08:58	lazybot	(+2_2) is 5 for extremely large values of 2
09:18	augustl	is it possible to implement a multimethod using a function that returns a new function? I.e. (defmulti foo :my-dispatch (call-function-that-returns-other-function))?
09:25	pjstadig	augustl: defmethod macro expands to this https://gist.github.com/pjstadig/5502123
09:26	pjstadig	so you can always manually call .addMethod on your multimethod
09:26	pjstadig	there's clojure.core/remove-method, but unfortunately not clojure.core/add-method, so you have to do it manually
09:29	jcromartie	so I rewrote my Clojure JSON API in Rails last night
09:30	jcromartie	I am already using at least two racist/mysogynist libraries
09:30	jcromartie	thank you, Clojure community, for not doing that
09:34	naeg	jcromartie: racist/mysogynist libraries? o.O
09:35	jcromartie	Feedzirra
09:35	mefesto	i only use libraries that treat me with respect
09:36	jcromartie	I think I had more earlier but I dropped some dependencies
09:36	naeg	what exactly I racist about feedzirra? can't really see it right now
09:37	duck1123	Think Godzilla
09:38	hfaafb	is godzilla racist?
09:39	naeg	either I still fail to see it, or we have a very different perception of "racist"
09:39	duck1123	combined with the R for L thing, it's a little insensitive, not quite racist
09:39	mefesto	hfaafb: instead of feedzilla it's feedzirra which seems like the intention was to sound the way asians can sometimes mispronounce the letter L
09:40	wink	depends how you define mispronounce
09:40	mefesto	i'm korean and find it kind of funny
09:40	mefesto	... well half korean.
09:40	naeg	oh, understand it now. but can't tell whether this was/is the intention of the developer
09:42	bengillies	how is it mysogynist then?
09:43	jcromartie	bengillies: it's not
09:43	jcromartie	but there are others
09:47	jcromartie	I am exaggerating a bit. I dont think they named their gems to hate on other people.
09:48	jcromartie	but it might be odd to explain the dependency on "feedzirra" to e.g. a gov't bureaucrat in charge of auditing an app or something like that, let alone gems like "clit", or "tit" or "daddys_girl"
09:49	jcromartie	or "trollop"
09:50	jcromartie	ball_gag, hash_dealer :)
09:50	mefesto	i think feedzirra wouldn't be an issue but yea those others are a bit much
09:54	Morgawr	hey guys :) a few days ago I finished a game in ClojureScript for the Ludum Dare competition, I wanted to thanks everyone who helped me with my random questions in here about Clojure. http://www.ludumdare.com/compo/ludum-dare-26/?action=preview&uid=8711 Here's the game if you're interested, it's a silly game but it's also on github in case anyone wanted to take a look a the code (it's not good code but at least it works)
09:55	Morgawr	I hope I can take this to the next level and develop an easy-to-use clojurescript engine for adventure games on the web, who knows
09:55	mefesto	i noticed that hiccup.form/form-to will convert any method that is not :get or :post into a :post but with a _method param. does compojure take this param into consideration with routes? [ex. (PUT "/my/uri" [] ...)]
09:56	weavejester	mefesto: It does
09:57	mefesto	weavejester: great. i figured it would but just wanted to check. thanks
09:58	jcromartie	Morgawr: awesome
09:59	Morgawr	:)
09:59	dnolen	Morgawr: neat
10:00	dnolen	Morgawr: it's cool to see people do games with ClojureScript
10:01	Morgawr	dnolen: yeah, it was an interesting challenge. I had never developed anything "useful" with functional programming so I wanted to see how it would go
10:01	Morgawr	it's really powerful after all, some hiccups here and there because I had never developed on the web nor with javascript before but it was fun
10:02	Morgawr	especially in 48 hours haha
10:10	silasdavis	Morgawr, how much acid did you drop...
10:11	silasdavis	I'm in the castle
10:13	Morgawr	silasdavis: haha, way too much acid, just wait for the end
10:13	Morgawr	keep in mind it was very rushed because of 48hours limit
10:13	Morgawr	(around 3/4 of the time was spent on the actual engine, the rest on content creation)
10:14	silasdavis	no I'm impressed that's a fair bit of content and code for 48 hours
10:14	Morgawr	the wonders of very little sleep :)
10:16	hfaafb	Are there any examples of open source performant action games in clojurescript?
10:16	Morgawr	uh.. I remember viewing a few when trying to look for example code
10:16	Morgawr	https://github.com/mrmekon/tempest-cljs this one for example
10:17	Morgawr	https://github.com/thomcc/ld23 there's also this one, which was made for Ludum Dare 23 one year ago
10:18	Morgawr	http://lispgames.org/index.php/Clojurescript and there's this wiki with a few other
10:19	Morgawr	which reminds me I need to add my game to that list
10:19	yogthos	Morgawr: I made one too a while back :) https://github.com/yogthos/Clojure-Tetris
10:19	Morgawr	nice! :)
10:21	jcidaho	anyone benchmarked elastisch against clj-elasticsearch?
10:21	jcidaho	seems 10x slower, I'm prob missing something
10:34	gfredericks	is there anything mutable about an ##(Object.)?
10:34	lazybot	⇒ #<Object java.lang.Object@1bede95>
10:45	TimMc	gfredericks: The mutex associated with it, I guess.
10:45	TimMc	You might be able to carry 1 bit of state that way.
10:48	trptcolin	might be able to alter method accessibility w/ reflection?
10:48	trptcolin	[kind of a stretch]
10:49	TimMc	&(let [o (Object.)] (locking o (.wait o 1000)))
10:49	lazybot	⇒ nil
10:50	TimMc	A good candidate for that would be Object#finalize()
10:51	ivan	remember to lock your Strings before mutating them
10:52	ivan	you don't want another thread to see a mutated string without the mutated hashCode
10:53	gfredericks	I still want mutable nils
10:54	trptcolin	i guess by definition, (Object.) is as immutable as anything can be, aside from primitives, in Java (and by extension Clojure)
10:54	ivan	how about some metadata on your nils
10:54	ivan	I want to know how long it took to generate this nil
10:56	gfredericks	,(with-meta nil {1 2})
10:56	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
11:00	tcrayford	clojurebot: for reals?
11:00	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
11:01	tcrayford	oh, nil is just java null, makes sense that there's no meatdata
11:05	trptcolin	meatdata. gross tcrayford
11:05	tcrayford	#notveganfriendly
11:31	rasmusto	I have a long-running loop with a Thread/sleep in it, and I get a stack overflow error if it runs for too long. I do a (swap! myatom (partial map somefunc)) on an atom within the loop and then check for some condition to break out of it.
11:32	rasmusto	I see lots of "LazySeq" and "map$fn" in my stack trace. Is using map (and laziness) a problem?
11:33	gdev	can you paste the code on refheap?
11:33	xeqi	it could build up a bunch of thunks, but I would expect something other then a stack overflow
11:38	rasmusto	gdev: I'll post what I can
11:45	dnolen	how many people only use ClojureScript with simple optimizations in production in some way?
11:46	dnolen	or any optimization really that isn't advanced - I'd assume hardly anyone but curious
11:48	cmajor7	dnolen: I did, but just because it was quite hard to figure out the reason on why "advanced" did not work. we had too much code to figure it out easily, and the "not found $b.a c.." was not giving it away.
11:48	akhudek	I still do, but that's mostly because I can't manage to debug a problem.
11:48	cmajor7	the whole codebase was about a meg
11:49	akhudek	Yes, I have the same issue as cmajor7
11:49	cmajor7	advanced made it 150Kb, but would not run
11:49	trptcolin	same. we're doing that so far, but it's an internal app and i've only been looking at cljs for a couple weeks
11:49	mefesto	im using advanced opts for production
11:51	dnolen	for the people that use simple optimization for some reason, I don't suppose you're super concerned about performance then?
11:51	trptcolin	yep, for now
11:53	McqfrTheScott	Chousuke, vieläkö ajattelet musta?
11:53	rasmusto	gdev: I had to butcher some of the code, but the gist of it is still there: https://www.refheap.com/paste/d9371bde35befc47d6efa8aea
11:53	McqfrTheScott	Musta, hollantilaisesta joka puhuu suomea äidinkielena
11:54	rasmusto	xeqi: I am calling out to clojure.java.shell.sh, I'm not sure if that's relevent at all
11:54	dnolen	I'm asking because I'm looking at switching keywords to a real type away from JS strings.
11:55	dnolen	under advanced compilation we can optimize constant literals easily of course
11:55	dnolen	but not under any other optimization mode - so that it means non-advanced compiled code will take a small perf hit for keyword occurences, they have to constructed wherever they occur.
11:56	dnolen	well "small"
11:59	xeqi	rasmusto: I would expect lazyness is biteing you there. For (some ...) to get the last element its going to have to step into each (partial map ..) which might contain another call of the same type due to lazyness. I could see this blowing the stack
11:59	xeqi	also, you could loop/recur to avoid the atom/while/swap! if desired
12:01	rasmusto	xeqi: okay. I can probably modify the collection I'm using for my loop condition to something less sequential, or make two buckets instead
12:02	xeqi	rasmusto: you could add another doall to confirm before going to far
12:03	rasmusto	xeqi: doall in the swap?
12:04	xeqi	sure
12:06	alex_baranosky	do any of you have a good Emacs configuration that allows you to Meta-. into Java methods, so you can easily dive into clojure implementation details?
12:08	cmajor7	dnolen: I would love to use it, but it just did not work for me (compiled, but did not run). I wanted to do it more for a size reasons vs. performance, but in any case I agree with "keywords" as a real type vs. strings. Eventually people who run in "simple" would figure out the root cause of "why", and move to "advanced" anyway.
12:09	rasmusto	xeqi: Okay. I'll give that a shot and see if I can reproduce/fix this issue. Thanks for the suggestions :)
12:37	gdev	rasmusto:) sorry, I got called away from my desk right as you pasted the link
12:49	ynniv	is there a way to specify exclusions to plugin dependencies in lein?
12:51	xeqi	ynniv: [lein-plugin "..." :exclusions [some-dep]]
12:52	ynniv	hmm. what about implicit dependencies?
12:52	ynniv	basically: [swank-clojure \"1.4.3\"] -> [clj-stacktrace \"0.2.4\"] is overrulling [ring \"1.2.0-beta2\"] -> [ring/ring-devel \"1.2.0-beta2\"] -> [clj-stacktrace \"0.2.5\"]
12:53	ynniv	i tried adding swank clojure as an explicit dependency with an exclusion, but it isn't taking
12:53	technomancy	what are implicit dependencies?
12:53	xeqi	technomancy: dependencies added by a plugin by altering the project before e-i-p
12:54	technomancy	oh, yeah. =(
12:54	technomancy	in retrospect I regret ever doing that or encouraging that
12:55	xeqi	... I can't think of a way. Declaring a top level dep with the version of clj-stacktrace desired would work
12:55	xeqi	* should work to get that version
12:55	ynniv	oh, that's simple enough
12:55	ddellacosta	ynniv, what is the plugin you are working with?
12:55	ynniv	[lein-swank "1.4.5"]
12:56	ynniv	as well as [lein-ring "0.8.5"] and [lein-pedantic "0.0.5"], but they don't seem to be involved
12:57	gdev	technomancy:) I'll create a feature request to have leiningen display a message when it is asked to do something that you regret adding
12:57	ddellacosta	It's interesting 'cause it sounds similar to an issue I had with lein-ring
12:57	ddellacosta	https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring/pull/71
12:57	technomancy	gdev: with a patch please
12:57	ddellacosta	…so I'm wondering if it's the same kind of issue.
12:57	gdev	technomancy:) mkay, first I need a list of everything you regret
12:57	ynniv	ddellacosta: I had the same problem. I probably fixed it by specifying the library directly without realizing what I was doing
12:58	ynniv	technomancy: also, thanks for making the greatest project management system I have used
12:58	dnolen	http://jsperf.com/fn-caching
12:58	dnolen	interesting results
12:58	ieure	Man it's kind of a drag that (deftype) constructors can't have varargs.
12:58	ynniv	don't worry about regrets
12:58	technomancy	ynniv: thanks =D
12:58	xeqi	hmm, I need to remember to deprecate lein-pedantic once lein 2.2 is out
12:58	dnolen	we do this kind of caching for reify already, but this could make local fns cheaper
12:59	ToBeReplaced	ieure: the constructor can't, but your function to call the constructor can
12:59	ynniv	dnolen: wow, what's up with safari?
12:59	ieure	ToBeReplaced, Yeah, but it's pretty crap that I have to make an adjunct function to construct the thing instead of just saying (deftype Blah [& xs])
12:59	ieure	Now I need (make-blah [& xs] (Blah. xs))
13:00	ddellacosta	ynniv: probably this line is the culprit, I would guess: https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/blob/master/lein-swank/src/leiningen/swank.clj#L62
13:01	ToBeReplaced	xeqi: i missed the start of the discussion -- deprecate because lein will start rejecting automatically?
13:01	ddellacosta	ynniv: ah, and you already tried added an explicit dependency, and that didn't take, huh...doh.
13:02	ddellacosta	ynniv: sorry, it's 2 AM for me here so I have to hit the hay, but good luck solving this one.
13:03	xeqi	ToBeReplaced: deperecate because I put something similar into lein itself
13:03	ynniv	ddellacosta: thanks for looking into it. Now that I know it's a problem I'll just hack around until it works.
13:04	xeqi	it won't reject them, just warn on `lein deps :tree`. Thought I think we had a brief discussion on a flag to warn all the time, can't remember now
13:08	Okasu	dnolen: Is this caching are just boring memoization?
13:09	dnolen	Okasu: it avoids paying the cost of constructing the inner function on every call
13:11	ynniv	ok, I just hit c-c c-z and everything worked… are we not using clojure-jack-in anymore?
13:12	ynniv	or perhaps more succinctly, how are people using clojure in emacs these days?
13:12	dnolen	Okasu: so we can cache all inner functions as functions on the namespace, and GClosure will optimize it.
13:13	Okasu	dnolen: Nice.
13:13	jstew	Greetings. I want to make a small web application to sharpen my clojure skills. What do most people use as a framework? Compjure? Ring? Noir? I'm not lookingfor full stack, just something I can play with.
13:14	ynniv	I prefer straight compojure
13:14	gdev	jstew:) http://pedestal.io/
13:14	ynniv	IIRC noir is no longer maintained
13:14	Okasu	jstew: https://github.com/Okasu/rss Compojure + Ember.js + Ember Data .
13:14	jstew	I looked at pedestal. I was sort of put off by the "sign and fax developer agreement" think.
13:14	jstew	s/think/thing
13:15	jstew	Okasu: nice! Thanks.
13:15	ynniv	Okasu: what's your experience with ember? I've been trying to build useful apps since Sproutcore 0.7, but the system always seems to trip over itself.
13:15	technomancy	another vote for straight compojure
13:15	gdev	you don't need a CA to use pedestal do you?
13:16	jstew	gdev: Nope. I could be wrong, but my perception is that the CA will hinder adoption and development.
13:16	ynniv	compojure, like sinatra, is probably never going away
13:17	tcrayford	I'd vote for compojure over pedal stool as well
13:17	Okasu	ynniv: It's nice and stable atm(not ember data), 1.0 is really near, we are currently using ember at work, and it's really great.
13:17	rkneufeld	jstew: Relevance guy here, you don't have to fax it, you could just digitally sign it.
13:17	rasmusto	gdev: no problem, I think another 'doall' might resolve my problem
13:17	rkneufeld	jstew: and then email it.
13:17	Okasu	s/at work/in production/
13:18	stuartsierra	gdev: No, you do not need a CA to use Pedestal. It's open source (EPL).
13:18	stuartsierra	If you want to contribute code to Pedestal, then you need to sign & email the CA.
13:19	gdev	that's what I thought, I was just wondering why a CA would be a blocker for someone to use it, seemed odd
13:20	ieure	So protocols don't generate classnames you can use for hinting?
13:20	ynniv	the CA is too prominent on the website. it should probably be under the "open source" "tab", versus jumping out at people on a cursory glance over the page
13:20	ynniv	also, the "tabs" are a poor design choice. they don't look like tabs, and they're difficult to use on mobile.
13:21	rkneufeld	ynniv: really, it's almost at the bottom of the page?
13:21	xeqi	you mean those are buttons you can click on?
13:22	ynniv	rkneufeld: yep, I can quickly swipe my fingers to get an overview of the page, and it stops with legalese in my face.
13:22	ynniv	xeqi: yep
13:22	rkneufeld	ynniv: fair point. I'll echo that feedback to the people working on the website.
13:23	ynniv	rkneufeld: compare that to reading about languages. you scroll down, don't understand what the framework is about, glance at some grey icons, maybe realize they're clickable, then try to click them (which failed for me on mobile the first time around)
13:23	ynniv	that would be excellent
13:24	ynniv	I like the graphic design, tho
13:28	rkneufeld	Thanks
13:28	gfredericks	ieure: they do -- they generate a jvm interface by the same name I think
13:29	gfredericks	ieure: but you'd have to import it or use it fully qualified. Also I can't imagine that it would accurately describe all types that satisfy the protocol
13:29	ieure	gfredericks, Sure doesn't seem to work.
13:30	ieure	(defprotocol Component ...)
13:30	ieure	(.stop ^Component c)
13:30	ieure	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: Component
13:30	ieure	This is all in the same ns.
13:32	gfredericks	ieure: you may well still have to fully qualify it
13:32	hiredman	ieure:a protocol is not a class, you cannot use it for type hinting
13:32	gfredericks	I just tried it at the repl and it worked fully qualified. I don't think you'd want to try to make Component refer to both the protocol and the interface
13:33	ieure	hiredman, So basically I can't use protocols for performance-sensitive stuff?
13:33	ieure	Or it has to be the _type_?
13:33	gfredericks	hiredman: you can't?
13:33	hiredman	ieure: use the protocol functions
13:34	ieure	hiredman, Reference please.
13:34	gfredericks	oh right
13:34	gfredericks	but you can use the interface, if that suffices
13:34	hiredman	ieure: when you create a protocol, you create functions
13:34	tieTYT2	hiredman: thanks for your help earlier
13:34	ieure	Okay, wow, protocols are some bullshit.
13:34	tieTYT2	hiredman: thanks to you, I got some clojure code into our pure java, javaee application
13:35	technomancy	ieure: yesss... feel the hat flow through you
13:35	tieTYT2	I don't know what the opposite of pandoras box is, but you may have just opened it
13:35	technomancy	uh
13:35	technomancy	hate
13:35	ieure	technomancy, I liked the first one.
13:35	technomancy	whatever floats yer boat
13:36	ieure	So what happens if I define two protocols with the same methods in the same ns?
13:36	hiredman	ieure: protocol functions get inline caches, so use them
13:36	hiredman	ieure: you can't
13:36	hiredman	they are collections of functions
13:36	ieure	lmfao
13:36	hiredman	they are not classes/interfaces/methods
13:36	gfredericks	ieure: you can use typehints in the example you gave though
13:36	hiredman	gfredericks: but you shouldn't
13:36	gfredericks	because it doesn't work for 3rd-party types?
13:37	linuxos	how do i get a negative rational number?
13:37	hiredman	gfredericks: because it is silly
13:37	gfredericks	linuxos: ##-3/4
13:37	gfredericks	&-3/4
13:37	lazybot	⇒ -3/4
13:37	linuxos	don't know why my repl crashes when i do that
13:37	linuxos	clojure 1.4
13:38	gfredericks	ignore the ## and the &, just type -3/4
13:38	hiredman	(.stop ^Component x), if stop is a protocol function, be the same performance wise (after jitting) as (stop x)
13:38	linuxos	i get Exception Ambiguous match for "-3/4" by #<Object[] [Ljava.lang.Object;@5223588b>
13:38	hiredman	should be
13:38	linuxos	,3/4
13:38	clojurebot	3/4
13:39	linuxos	,-3/4
13:39	clojurebot	-3/4
13:39	gfredericks	linuxos: what sort of repl is this?
13:39	linuxos	lein repl
13:39	gfredericks	have you tried rebooting your modem?
13:39	hiredman	because the clojure compiler can see that stop is a protocol function, it will emit a protocol callsite for (stop x) which includes an inline cache
13:40	gfredericks	linuxos: does the stack trace point to anything interesting?
13:40	ieure	So is there some way to support multiple protocols in a type?
13:40	gfredericks	ieure: one type implementing multiple protocols? yes that's normal
13:40	hiredman	ieure: of course, you can name your functions differently, or put them in different namespaces
13:41	hiredman	just like regular functions
13:41	hiredman	"why can't I have two (def x y) in the same namespace?"
13:41	ieure	hiredman, Right, but this requires me to understand implementation details of (deftype).
13:42	hiredman	no, it requires you to know how clojure functions work
13:42	ieure	Which is the problem. It's not clear that it's happening or how it's implemented.
13:42	gfredericks	not really; just the fact that the protocol functions are resolvable as vars inside the namespace would suggest you can't overload them
13:42	gfredericks	which I assume is the recommended usage, as hiredman says
13:42	ieure	The fact that they ARE resolvable as vars inside the ns is not what's clear.
13:42	hiredman	obviously, if a protocol is just a collection of functions in a namespace, you cannot have multiple functions in a namespace with hte same name
13:43	hiredman	which is why, at the beginning I said "protocols are not classes/interfaces/etc"
13:43	gfredericks	ieure: where are you learning about protocols from? clojure.org/protocols mentions this
13:43	ieure	deftype docs: "Dynamically generates compiled bytecode for class with the given name, in a package with the same name as the current namespace, the given fields, and, optionally, methods for protocols and/or interfaces."
13:43	ieure	Indicates that it makes a class. It works like a class.
13:44	gfredericks	deftype is different from defprotocol
13:44	ieure	Does not say "Generates functions in the ns corresponding to methods in the type."
13:44	hiredman	deftypes don't
13:44	gfredericks	the docs for defprotocol indicate in the examples that this is what happens
13:45	hiredman	deftypes are not protocols
13:45	ynniv	oh, swank-clojure is deprecated in favor of nrepl.el? always something new...
13:45	technomancy	swank still works
13:45	hiredman	deftypes can have protocols extended to them
13:46	hiredman	if you extend the protocol Component (which has the function stop) to the type X, then you can call the function stop on X
13:46	linuxos	gfredericks: https://www.refheap.com/paste/14146
13:46	technomancy	linuxos: I think that's fixed in the latest leiningen
13:46	linuxos	ok
13:46	ieure	Yeah guys you're not convincing me that this stuff is any less shitty.
13:47	ieure	Only that you don't understand that to try to use these is peeling a shit onion.
13:47	hiredman	ieure: you've only convinced me you don't know what you are doing
13:47	hiredman	read the docs
13:48	gfredericks	well. that was a fruitful interaction.
13:49	gfredericks	I wish I could understand that to try to use these is peeling a shit onion.
13:50	gfredericks	then I could help people better.
13:51	technomancy	I got a good hat-related laugh out of it.
13:51	technomancy	in my book that's a win.
13:51	gfredericks	success criteria: either helping people learn the language or getting a good hat-related laugh
13:51	arrdem	Â/me starts reading scrollback, shocked to see a troll in #clojure
13:51	hiredman	"I wish you could understand that this tool sucks, because I don't know how to use it, and it made me feel bad"
13:52	daemian	i got "peeling a shit onion" out of it. +1
13:52	llasram	I would like to tactfully suggest that mocking people who are having a difficult time does not encourage others to join the community
13:52	ynniv	,(inc shitonion)
13:52	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: shitonion in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:52	gfredericks	I wonder if "shit" is an adjective-adjective like a brit might use, or a noun-adjective like anybody else
13:53	technomancy	llasram: in general I agree, but I know ieure and he's got very thick skin.
13:53	llasram	Fair enough then
13:53	gfredericks	I don't think we mock people just for having a difficult time
13:54	gfredericks	that doesn't make it constructive though
13:54	TimMc	arrdem: ieure was not being a troll.
13:54	ynniv	fwiw, I avoid the protocol stuff as well. the bits of clojure that get too involved with java have unexpected "functionalities"
13:55	TimMc	Mocking someone for not understanding a language feature is never going to help that language community.
13:55	arrdem	don't understand scrollback... need more coffee
13:55	gfredericks	it's difficult to handle people getting mad at you after you try to help them. a bit like parenting I guess :)
13:56	TimMc	Luckily, in this case you can just abandon the angry person.
13:56	TimMc	No pesky legal ramifications!
13:56	ynniv	TimMc: just make sure you're abandoning the person and not the problem
13:56	hiredman	I am mocking him for have a ridiculous attitude about it and not being self aware enough to realize it
13:56	TimMc	ynniv: Very true.
13:58	gfredericks	probably best to be gracious about self-awareness-lackages; I've definitely been in that position before, and have no way to prove I amn't currently
13:58	ynniv	hiredman: I think that I showed up here a while ago with a similar protocol related aggravation, but hopefully was more self-aware of my behavior
13:59	technomancy	man, protocols.
13:59	gfredericks	that's technomancy's lesson
13:59	hiredman	eyeroll
13:59	arrdem	feh. they exploded in my face the first time..
13:59	ynniv	I have disavowed all knowledge of polymorphism other than defmulti
13:59	hiredman	technomancy just hates anything that generates lein bug reports
13:59	technomancy	gfredericks: life is simpler when you can just stop paying attention as soon as you hear certain words.
14:00	technomancy	hiredman: basically
14:00	technomancy	cygwin, protocols, war files.
14:00	technomancy	sublime text
14:00	xeqi	aot ?
14:00	technomancy	that too!
14:00	gfredericks	why stop at cygwin? windows
14:00	hiredman	alex miller has a talk he gave where he metions protocols for spis, which is where they really shine
14:01	llasram	spis?
14:01	hiredman	sevice provider interface
14:01	gfredericks	spies?
14:01	gfredericks	nope
14:01	llasram	hehe
14:01	ynniv	xeqi: definitely aot. the extension of my knowledge of clojure's aot is :main ^:skip-aot
14:01	technomancy	gfredericks: well, that hate predates leiningen
14:01	hiredman	an api can be a lot of regular functions built on top of a protocol (an spi)
14:02	gfredericks	hiredman: in the dnolen style?
14:02	hiredman	so you can use the api to deal with anything you extend the spi to
14:02	hiredman	gfredericks: sure
14:02	gfredericks	also similar to the functions that take seqs
14:02	hiredman	gfredericks: you ca drop the the 'the' and just say 'dnolen style' because it starts with a d
14:02	hiredman	gfredericks: seq is a hand rolled protocol
14:02	gfredericks	hiredman: and now I will
14:03	gfredericks	yeah I used dnolen style for cljs arithmetic
14:03	gfredericks	it feels verbose. but I don't have any better suggestion
14:05	hiredman	our storage stuff at work is structured that way, we have a protocol that describes what operations we need from an object store, and then a bunch of functions on top for retries, md5sum checking, etc
14:06	hiredman	so to use the storage functions with a new object store, you wire up the protocol at the bottom
14:06	gfredericks	right
14:06	ynniv	can I defer to a different route in compojure? kind of a server-side redirect
14:06	gfredericks	ynniv: you could extract all the functionality to a function that both routes call
14:07	gfredericks	which is to say "no I don't think so"
14:07	ynniv	there isn't enough code to bother with that, but I don't want them to fall out of sync
14:07	gfredericks	how would you even specify what route? construct another path?
14:08	ynniv	yeah
14:08	gfredericks	you could do that a bit manually, but that feels gross
14:08	gfredericks	(defroutes app (GET "foo" req (app {assoc req :uri "bar"})) (GET "bar" ...))
14:08	gfredericks	something like that
14:09	gfredericks	probably lots of reasons not to
14:09	xeqi	or make a mod-rewrite ype middleware
14:09	arrdem	gfredericks: will that work?
14:09	gfredericks	yeah that sounsd a lot cleaner
14:09	gfredericks	arrdem: probably not that exact code. Something similar I think should "work"
14:10	arrdem	gfredericks: I mean I get rewriting the request, I'm just not sure how compojure does routing.
14:10	gfredericks	app is a ring handler, so you can just call it with a request
14:10	arrdem	yeah that'd do it
14:11	gfredericks	does ring say anything about handlers returning nil?
14:12	amalloy	gfredericks: i don't know if it's explicit, but since nil doesn't contain any of the REQUIRED keys, they're not valid responses
14:17	gfredericks	I wonder what the adapters do...404 or 500?
14:17	xeqi	adapters?
14:17	gfredericks	e.g., the ring-jetty-adapter
14:17	xeqi	ah, right
14:17	gfredericks	the thing responsible for taking the clojure value returned and actually telling the client about it
14:18	gfredericks	or telling jetty about it I guess
14:24	amalloy	gfredericks: 500, i'm pretty sure
14:24	amalloy	if you want a 404, you do it yourself
14:26	tieTYT2	is it inefficient to do this every time a method is called: RT.load("clojure/core"); //need to do this first to initalize the RT clojure.lang.Compiler.load(new InputStreamReader(resourceAsStream, "UTF8"));
14:26	technomancy	tieTYT2: yes, reloading all of core is costly
14:27	tieTYT2	ok maybe I could put this part ina static block
14:27	tylergillies	can "case" function take multiple values matches? like (case foo ("bar" or "baz") "quxx")
14:28	tylergillies	looks like yes
14:28	tylergillies	n/m
14:28	[raven]	Hi :)
14:30	hiredman	tieTYT2: https://github.com/sonian/Greenmail/blob/master/src/main/java/com/icegreen/greenmail/pop3/Pop3Server.java#L24-32
14:31	tieTYT2	hiredman: is that lock relevant?
14:31	hiredman	nope
14:31	tieTYT2	phew
14:31	tieTYT2	any reason these first lines aren't final?
14:31	[raven]	I've a question, i'm trying to achieve this: http://paste.fedoraproject.org/10082/ but since I'm a noob, i'm not able to figure out how to make it happen. Someone can help me with some actual code? (I wroted a function that split the = string)
14:31	hiredman	if you reference the RT class, it should load clojure.core in a static init, so you don't need to
14:31	hiredman	tieTYT2: nope
14:31	tieTYT2	ok I'll try this
14:32	kasterma	I am learning core.logic, using midje to do some testing. I wrote a function last, and corresponding facts. The facts don't behave the way I expect.
14:32	kasterma	https://gist.github.com/kasterma/5504254
14:32	kasterma	How to check the output of a function?
14:33	kasterma	functiono
14:33	kasterma	I meant.
14:33	tieTYT2	is that static block saying, (require 'greenmail.pop3) ?
14:33	kasterma	(lasto [1 2 3] 4) => u# fails.
14:33	hiredman	tieTYT2: yes
14:34	tieTYT2	ok thanks, sorry for all the questions
14:35	hiredman	kasterma: seems like a bad test, running logic goals out side of a run or run* is weird
14:35	hiredman	(and who knows what kind of weird stuff midje is doing)
14:35	kasterma	Weird indeed, but at least I expect that to be the output.
14:35	kasterma	(logic/run 3 [q] (lasto q 3)) => '((3) (_0 3) (_0 _1 3))
14:35	kasterma	(logic/run* [q] (lasto [1 2 3 4 5] q)) => '(5)
14:35	kasterma	These are as expected.
14:36	kasterma	Is my expectation about the output incorrect?
14:36	hiredman	kasterma: sure, and those should be, but looking at the result of a goal outside of a run is looking an implementation detail
14:38	kasterma	hiredman: that is an interesting idea; I didn't think of it as such.
14:38	tylergillies	dafuq is up with this? https://gist.github.com/tjgillies/2652fe183ab19c2d9923
14:38	tylergillies	heh
14:38	kasterma	does seem to make sense though. Guess I'll refrain from testing like that. thx
14:39	tylergillies	throwing CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate case test constant: or, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:4:3)
14:40	tylergillies	oh derp
14:40	tylergillies	the default clause is a single clause
14:40	tylergillies	not a clause called default
14:41	tylergillies	doh that didn't seem to work either
14:42	justin_smith	tylergillies: case does not want a function to apply, it wants the literal value to check
14:42	justin_smith	it is turning (or "develop" "staging") into "develop" before the statement runs
14:42	justin_smith	not comparing to both
14:43	akells`	how does one get the length of a byte array? For example, I get a 'no matching field' found for (.length (.getBytes "abc"))
14:43	akells`	sorry, this is a borderline java question I guess
14:43	llasram	&(count (.getBytes "abc"))
14:43	lazybot	⇒ 3
14:43	ToBeReplaced	tylergillies: justin_smith is right, consider cond, or transforming your value before the case
14:43	akells`	thanks llasram
14:44	tieTYT2	god I really hate that -/_ bs that clojure makes you do
14:44	xeqi	&(alength (.getBytes "abc"))
14:44	lazybot	⇒ 3
14:44	tieTYT2	it would be simpler if they just forbade the - symbol
14:44	tylergillies	doh thanks
14:46	akells`	thanks xeqi
14:46	justin_smith	case is nice because it can do constant time dispatch unlike other stuff. one simple option: (case cluster-name "develop" "testing" "staging" "testing" "production" "production" "production)
14:46	akells`	alength vs. count -- is there a reason to pref one over another?
14:46	justin_smith	I missed a " above
14:47	TimMc	,(class -)
14:47	clojurebot	clojure.core$_
14:48	ToBeReplaced	akells`: if it's a java array and you need speed, use alength... if it's a clojure collection, use count
14:48	akells`	much appreciated ToBeReplaced
14:48	xeqi	I believe alength gets translated into the jvm bytecode for array length, so should be faster
14:48	amalloy	justin_smith, tylergillies, ToBeReplaced: that's not really an accurate description of what case does, or how to fix his problem
14:48	akells`	thanks xeqi
14:48	dnolen	kasterma: did you solve your problem?
14:49	justin_smith	oh, test-constants- I see that now
14:49	justin_smith	!
14:49	amalloy	case takes literals, so it doesn't evaluate them at all. it's certainly not turning it into "develop" at compile-time; rather, it treats a list of things as an "implicit" 'or
14:49	justin_smith	cool, amalloy, thanks!
14:49	amalloy	so it's saying that it will fall into clause 1 if the value is any of: 'or, "develop", "stagin"; and clause 2 if the value is any of: 'or, "production"
14:50	kasterma	dnolen: well, solve is one word for it. :-) I learned that the results of goals are considered implementation dependent, and I should just test in the context of run.
14:50	amalloy	the fact that the symbol 'or falls into two clauses means it can't compile. if you just removed the or from both of those lists, everything would work fine
14:50	tylergillies	(inc amalloy)
14:50	lazybot	⇒ 52
14:50	kasterma	This removes the problem, but I am still getting used to it.
14:50	dnolen	kasterma: this true, results of a goal is opaque anyhow, you'll just get a function
14:51	kasterma	dnolen: => s# worked though, only the => u# didn't.
14:51	kasterma	I did see that in the repl different function no's were given.
14:51	amalloy	akells`: alength if the array is type-hinted
14:51	amalloy	count if you don't know its type, or you care more about readability than performance
14:52	akells`	amalloy: much appreciated, thank you
14:52	kasterma	dnolen: anyway, thanks for checking up with me. I am really excited about learning core.logic. Just a year ago I switched from being a logician to being in IT. Now logic is back!
14:53	dnolen	kasterma: heh, cool.
14:53	hiredman	alength is silly
14:53	hiredman	count can take arrays and has a special case for them and doesn't do anything silly like turning them in to seqs first
14:53	clojurebot	seqs and colls is http://www.brainonfire.net/files/seqs-and-colls/main.html
14:53	amalloy	hiredman: count does reflection for arrays
14:53	kasterma	dnolen: I am finding it strangely easier to proof the existence of weird stuff from AC, than to get into logic programming. Just started though.
14:54	dnolen	kasterma: AC?
14:55	kasterma	dnolen: axiom of choice.
14:55	[raven]	no help? http://paste.fedoraproject.org/10082/
14:55	dnolen	kasterma: the learning curve around logic programming is pretty steep I think, but then it gets very flat.
14:56	kasterma	dnolen: I am doing the prolog 99 problems now. Directly working on what I think it'll help with is a bit too steep.
14:57	dnolen	kasterma: cool! I haven't tried those myself - it may be that some of the more advanced example may require features of Prolog we don't have yet.
14:57	Okasu	~/quit
14:57	clojurebot	No entiendo
14:57	dnolen	advanced problems I mean
14:58	ToBeReplaced	amalloy: that's wacky with case; i had no idea ->
14:58	kasterma	dnolen: if I have as much fun with learning as I expect, than I'll just keep going and help implement to get the features. :-)
14:58	ToBeReplaced	,(case '(0) (0) 1 0)
14:58	clojurebot	0
14:59	dnolen	kasterma: help always welcome
14:59	ToBeReplaced	that scares me... because that's not at all obvious
14:59	ToBeReplaced	,(case '(0) [0] 1 0)
14:59	clojurebot	1
14:59	tieTYT2	why's there no disj for maps?
14:59	kasterma	dnolen: one other thing I read recently that I am very interested in in probabilistic prolog ideas; think Church.
14:59	kasterma	are there implementations of that going?
15:00	dnolen	kasterma: we might do a Google Summer of Code on that
15:00	amalloy	yes, if you have never read the docstring for case, that is not obvious. but it includes a specific mention about not doing that
15:00	dnolen	kasterma: there is an existing Church-like project
15:00	kasterma	dnolen: link?
15:00	dnolen	https://github.com/clojure/core.logic/wiki/CLP%28Prob%29
15:02	kasterma	dnolen: thx, I'll take a careful look after I finish singletono and next2lasto.
15:03	trptcolin	[raven]: https://www.refheap.com/paste/14150
15:05	[raven]	trptcolin: Thanks a bunch!
15:07	gfredericks	ToBeReplaced: that's pretty weird; what's the difference there?
15:07	gfredericks	,(case '(0) '(0) 1 0)
15:07	clojurebot	1
15:13	ToBeReplaced	gredericks: if the test constant is a list, it checks whether the expression is in the list, not equal to the test constant
15:14	ToBeReplaced	i didn't know that until a few minutes ago... amalloy points out that it's in the docstring... still took me by surprise
15:14	amalloy	,(case 'quote '(0) 1 0)
15:14	clojurebot	1
15:15	tieTYT2	,(type vals {})
15:15	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$type>
15:15	tieTYT2	,(type (vals {}))
15:15	clojurebot	nil
15:15	tieTYT2	doh
15:15	tieTYT2	why does that return a clojure.lang.APersistentMap$ValSeq ?
15:15	tieTYT2	I guess that's a type of sequence
15:16	tieTYT2	i'm taking the result of a (vals m) call and trying to put it in an ArrayList
15:17	amalloy	tieTYT2: why would you put it into an ArrayList?
15:17	tieTYT2	but that's not working as expected. It's giving me a persistent list with APersistentMap$ValSeq in it, with the values in there that I want
15:18	tieTYT2	I want to put the values into an arraylist
15:18	tieTYT2	I'm calling it from java
15:19	tieTYT2	and the java code wants to put it in an arraylist
15:19	tieTYT2	i'm not sure if I answered your question or not
15:19	amalloy	tieTYT2: if the java code really wants an arraylist it's pretty bad java code
15:20	amalloy	it should be happy to accept a Collection, or at least a List, which clojure sequences implement
15:20	tieTYT2	well the thing is this is going to be passed to JPA
15:20	tieTYT2	and I'm concerned JPA will freak out if it's a clojure List
15:21	antares_	Titanium beta1 is released: http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/05/02/titanium-1-dot-0-0-beta1-is-released/
15:21	amalloy	well that's silly. unless it actually has a problem, or the javadoc explicitly says it must have an ArrayList, don't be concerned until you've tried the obvious, easy thing and it doesn't work
15:22	tieTYT2	ok fair enough
15:23	amalloy	glancing through the JPA javadoc, it seems to work with interfaces as generic as possible, so good on them
15:23	tieTYT2	but, vals is returning a List that returns a PersistentVector when I call "get" on it
15:23	tieTYT2	so there must be some flaw in my clj code
15:31	tieTYT2	oh the group-by result has a list wrapped around it for some reason
15:31	tieTYT2	must be a problem with my input
15:40	tieTYT2	oh i get it now. Group by returns a map where the values are wrapped in a vector. I forgot that vector part
15:42	justin_smith	code I literally just now wrote: (defn itemize-by [k m] (into {} (map (fn [[k [v]]] [k v]) (group-by k m))))
15:42	justin_smith
15:42	justin_smith	yes I use k twice, which is bad
15:46	tieTYT2	how can I make this code more idiomatic? https://www.refheap.com/paste/cc1d92f1176a5eaf454cadcc6
15:49	rbxbx``	tieTYT2: I believe (vals (apply dissoc (keyed-map db) (keys (keyed-map changes) could be replaced by using select-keys (http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/select-keys)
15:49	tieTYT2	how's this? https://www.refheap.com/paste/dce5a89c541657841a9645b82
15:49	rbxbx``	(I think that's what you're doing, yes?)
15:50	tieTYT2	yes I think so
15:50	tieTYT2	ok thanks
15:50	rbxbx``	np
15:52	tieTYT2	actually I think select-keys is the opposite of what I want
15:52	tieTYT2	i want to remove the keys
15:53	tieTYT2	not keep them
15:53	tieTYT2	oh but i think ic an do it this way
15:57	justin_smith	#(.getConsentKey %) == (memfn getConsentKey)
15:58	justin_smith	that is one way to make it more idiomatic, tieTYT2
15:58	llasram	Except that `memfn` is basically deprecated
15:58	justin_smith	it is?
15:58	justin_smith	why is that?
15:58	ppppaul	i want to do something like (update-in {:a "1"} [:a] Long/parseLong)
15:58	ppppaul	and suggestions?
15:58	ppppaul	any*?
15:59	tieTYT2	justin_smith: what I did or what rbxbx`` is suggesting?
15:59	gfredericks	ppppaul: #(Long/parseLong %)
16:00	ppppaul	thanks :)
16:00	gfredericks	not really possible to call a static method succinctlier than that
16:00	llasram	justin_smith: shrug All I know is that parts of the Internet believe rhickey so-considers it
16:00	ppppaul	i guess i could wrap it
16:01	ppppaul	llasram, what?
16:01	llasram	ppppaul: Re: memfn pseudo-deprecation
16:01	justin_smith	tieTYT2: well it applies to both, I personally think (memfn getConsentKey) is better than #(.getConsentKey %) but they are identical in what they do
16:01	gfredericks	memfn reduces the number of classes generated by compilation, no?
16:01	gfredericks	,(class (memfn foobar))
16:02	clojurebot	sandbox$eval36$fn__38
16:02	gfredericks	,(map class [(memfn foo) (memfn bar)])
16:02	clojurebot	(sandbox$eval75$fn__77 sandbox$eval75$fn__80)
16:02	llasram	gfredericks: memfn is a macro, so no
16:02	gfredericks	hmm
16:02	gfredericks	ah good point
16:02	gfredericks	it's partial that does that
16:02	gfredericks	,(map class [(partial + 2) (partial + 4)])
16:02	clojurebot	(clojure.core$partial$fn__4214 clojure.core$partial$fn__4214)
16:02	gfredericks	phew
16:02	gfredericks	I'm right about _something_ at least
16:02	llasram	Heh :-)
16:03	llasram	I try not to let that go to my head when it happens to me
16:03	gfredericks	ask me anything about clojure and I'll find something different that I'm right about
16:04	amalloy	gfredericks: do you guarantee that it's a different something every time?
16:04	amalloy	if so, i have uncountably-many questions for you whenever you've got the time
16:04	justin_smith	oh - one reason #(.foo %) beats (memfn foo) is that you can type hint the former
16:04	gfredericks	amalloy: sure, just send me a list of them
16:05	amalloy	gfredericks: (keep to-ascii-string (range))
16:05	gfredericks	I question your use of "uncountable"
16:05	amalloy	yeah, i know. that's countable, sadly
16:06	gfredericks	you can't waffle on the very thing I was counting on to prevent you from fulfilling my demands
16:06	amalloy	i couldn't quickly think of a way to generate an uncountably-infinite list in clojure
16:06	technomancy	there's no reason memfn couldn't take an optional type hint though
16:06	technomancy	kind asilly
16:06	gfredericks	"uncountably infinite list" is oxymoronic
16:06	amalloy	is it?
16:06	gfredericks	"countable" == "listable"
16:07	justin_smith	technomancy: I agree, I like memfn better than anonymous function literals, just reporting what I find when looking for an explanation for the deprecation
16:08	tieTYT2	justin_smith: http://blog.jayfields.com/2011/08/clojure-memfn.html
16:08	tieTYT2	according to that, "...it is almost always preferable to do this directly now..."
16:08	technomancy	is there a good reason why references to static methods can't be auto-memfnd?
16:08	technomancy	err--not memfn but some static equivalent of memfn
16:09	technomancy	seems like it could be easy to determine at compile time
16:09	gfredericks	such that you could (map Long/parseLong ["1" "2"])?
16:09	technomancy	why not?
16:09	gfredericks	I've wondered that too
16:09	gfredericks	same for instance methods, no?
16:09	technomancy	maybe arity ambiguity?
16:10	technomancy	gfredericks: depends on whether a leading dot is legal anywhere elsee
16:10	ystael	gfredericks: i don't suppose you'd accept "map with well-ordered domain" as a proxy for "list"? :)
16:10	technomancy	I guess you could have :require [my.stupid.long :as Long]
16:10	amalloy	gfredericks: (for [n (range), set (power-set (range n))] (to-ascii set))? that should have cardinality larger than the integers, thus uncountable, right?
16:10	technomancy	capitalization isn't a reliable indicator in this case
16:11	ystael	amalloy: nope, that's a countable union of finite sets, still countable
16:12	gfredericks	any list of finite objects is countable
16:12	gfredericks	so if you've giving me a list of finite strings then it doesn't matter how you generated them
16:14	amalloy	i've changed my mind and now hate set theory forever
16:14	gfredericks	read about ordinals instead of cardinals
16:14	gfredericks	they're much trippier
16:15	technomancy	so the "ambiguity" is actually resolvable (duh) because the compiler knows the ns map
16:15	gfredericks	well; based on the amounts of either topic that are in my head
16:15	technomancy	how silly of me
16:15	gfredericks	ystael: your map with a well-ordered domain would have to accept infinite arguments I guess?
16:17	ystael	gfredericks: well, your well-ordered domain could be [0..1] given any well-ordering from Zermelo's theorem :)
16:17	gfredericks	but if you're in clojure you can't represent arbitrary irrational numbers
16:18	gfredericks	unless you want to argue that some mapping from infinite lazy sequences of something to irrational numbers suffices
16:18	ystael	the map still would not be representable in clojure, that's true
16:19	gfredericks	you brought up well-ordering as a weaker form of a "list"?
16:19	ystael	i was being silly :)
16:20	gfredericks	I cannot take set-theory but seriously
16:20	technomancy	set theorists, on the other hand
16:20	ystael	i figured, if you want to give an uncountable "list" of questions, maybe you could at least index them by the first uncountable ordinal or something
16:21	djwonk	do functions used in `reduce` have conventional param names? (e.g. [acc item] or something?)
16:21	gfredericks	ystael: it's a "generalized list" :)
16:22	technomancy	djwonk: I usually use `acc' unless I can come up with a better name (nodes, counts, etc)
16:22	djwonk	technomancy: thanks
16:22	technomancy	elem, item, or x for the second
16:22	djwonk	technomancy and hello from clojure/west
16:22	technomancy	hi hi
16:23	gfredericks	what? clojure/west is happening again?
16:23	gfredericks	this must be a dream
16:23	gfredericks	crap crap crap I must be missing my talk
16:23	djwonk	it probably will, but not today
16:24	gfredericks	I bet there's a class I failed to show up to all semester too while we're at it
16:24	djwonk	the swearjure talk was brilliantly executed, it set a new bar for seriously joking talks
16:24	gfredericks	haha, thanks
16:25	djwonk	oh, I said that without realizing it was you!
16:26	djwonk	maybe my subconscious knew?
16:27	ystael	every time i hear the phrase "brilliantly executed" my mind's eye sees a very, very shiny axe
16:30	clojurenewb	hi, is there a way to handle an assertion error nicely, presenting a friendly message to the user without littering my function with exception handling ?
16:30	djwonk	ystael: as opposed to duly executed, like a legal document or rusty guillotine?
16:31	djwonk	I guess it makes a difference: duly executed vs. dully executed
16:32	stuartsierra	clojurenewb: Exception-handling is usually messy.
16:33	djwonk	I'm thinking about a parsing problem. I've got a list of things and I'm building up a array (with nesting). I'm thinking about building it up with 'reduce' but it might not be the right way... since I need to keep track of the "next position" where an insert will happen
16:33	clojurenewb	stuartsierra: totally agree
16:33	clojurenewb	it just makes my functions cluttered
16:34	technomancy	clojurenewb: there was a lib recently announced called "dire" that attempts to separate that kind of stuff out. haven't tried it, but it might address what you're asking.
16:36	mthvedt	djwonk: if you're using a parser lib, there is probably some way to rewrite parser rules to make it simpler
16:36	clojurenewb	technomancy: yes, I had a look at that, was hoping to avoid more dependencies etc, see if there was anything doable in core clojure
16:36	djwonk	mthvedt: I'm not currently using a parser lib, maybe I should consider doing so
16:36	gfredericks	clojure's built-in error handling is pretty raw
16:37	gfredericks	which is probably partly because libraries can make it arbitrarily nice via macros &etc
16:37	technomancy	I wouldn't worry about avoiding dependences, but avoiding new constructs that aren't built-in or particularly well-understood/well-documented is wise
16:37	mthvedt	djwonk: i'd like to plug my project, https://github.com/eightnotrump/clearley, to try to make "parsers that do things" easy to write
16:37	gfredericks	technomancy worries about dependencies so that you don't have to
16:37	technomancy	gfredericks: &etc is redundant
16:37	technomancy	etc or &c
16:38	gfredericks	just because it's redundant doesn't mean I don't want to say it
16:38	technomancy	I see
16:39	gfredericks	redundancy is desirably in all sorts of situations, especially communication
16:39	gfredericks	I'll go as far as I have to in order to keep from backtracking on anything I say
16:39	technomancy	"pin number"
16:40	trinary	"atm machine", "NIC card"
16:40	reeses	nic has been retronamed controller
16:40	reeses	since they're not usually on cards anymore
16:41	trinary	fair enough :)
16:41	callen	gfredericks: & is et which is "and"
16:41	callen	gfredericks: et cetera => & cetera => &c
16:41	reeses	&c. is a great way to create an affected style
16:41	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: c.
16:42	wink	never seen &c
16:42	wink	but I've also never seen "and yet" as in http://andyet.com/
16:42	technomancy	it's even better if you have fancy-pants typesetting on your ampersands
16:42	wink	you and your silly mothertongue!
16:42	djwonk	mthvedt: cool. do you think it would be a good fit for: https://gist.github.com/bluemont/5505213
16:43	reeses	technomancy: the two do seem to go hand-in-hand, don't they?
16:43	technomancy	reeses: one would hope
16:43	reeses	the sort of person who uses ffi ligatures
16:44	reeses	or the worst, the ct and st ligatures
16:44	TimMc	oﬃce
16:44	TimMc	doesn't look too good in my terminal
16:44	djwonk	ligatures are a pain
16:44	technomancy	djwonk: that's how it shows you care
16:45	technomancy	if it were easy everyone would do it
16:46	djwonk	oh? I mean converting ligatures from PDFs into searchable text is something I need to deal with
16:46	djwonk	probably not too bad if I just did it and quit complaining about it
16:46	reeses	they're fine if implemented correctly, so the text layer has the non-ligature version for searching/indexing
16:46	mthvedt	djwonk: taking a look… that grammar's partially context-sensitive, i think
16:46	reeses	djwonk: you're dealing with the output of lazy typesetters, then
16:47	mthvedt	is any x.y intended to be a subheading of x?
16:47	djwonk	reeses: I think there are decent ligature conversion tools in Unicode
16:48	djwonk	mthvedt: the actual text of the heading does not matter. I should have mentioned I have a `heading-level` function that returns the nesting level
16:48	reeses	yeah, you can play with the text layer to replace them
16:49	mthvedt	djwonk: is heading level a fn of the number of ='s
16:49	djwonk	mthvedt: just updated the gist, "==" is level 1, "===" is level 3, etc.
16:49	djwonk	urg... "===
16:49	djwonk	is level 2
16:50	djwonk	FWIW, I'm parsing MediaWiki headings
16:51	djwonk	mthvedt: I think if I pass along the current heading level in the reducer, I can parse manually pretty easily, not that I think about it
16:51	djwonk	not->how
16:51	mthvedt	djwonk: that sounds best
16:52	mthvedt	it's a context-sensitive grammar, so no parser can do it automatically, the best is to split the chunks into tokens and do the thing you said
16:53	mthvedt	at least, no parser i know of for clojure
16:53	djwonk	mthvedt: thanks for taking a look
16:53	djwonk	I'll share back when I've got it
16:54	mthvedt	djwonk: np
17:04	TimMc	djwonk: NFKC doesn't do what you need?
17:06	TimMc	(Norm/normalize "\ufb03" NF/NFKD) ;;= "ffi"
17:06	djwonk	TimMc: haven't tried http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/text/Normalizer.Form.html#NFKC yet -- hopefully it will!
17:06	djwonk	thanks
17:07	TimMc	NFKD might actually be what you want, I dunno.
17:08	djwonk	it sounds better than ignoring it and hoping they will fix themselves
17:12	djwonk	mthvedt: side note: converting the output structure to all arrays (no hashes) makes it easier to incrementally build
17:14	tieTYT2	i like how pre/post throw errors even if -ea isn't set
17:14	akells`	does anyone have experience with java.nio.file.Files readAllBytes method? I'm about to tear my entire project apart under the assumption that it isn't reading all of a files bytes, but I wanted to ask around before I do. google doesn't seem to be helping me here. here's the code I'm using to create the byte array: http://pastebin.com/X9MhtxsC
17:15	djwonk	akells`: any chance you are closing the file too soon?
17:15	akells`	djwonk: I'm wondering if that might be the case, because all of my files are several kb short
17:15	djwonk	I've done that by mis-using `with-open`
17:16	akells`	djwonk: but the pastebin code is the only part that is actually dealing with the filesystem
17:16	akells`	I just don't see how I could be closing it too early, based on the nio.file.Files docs
17:17	djwonk	that was my only guess, it might not be the actual problem
17:17	akells`	djwonk: I appreciate the input
17:18	djwonk	akells`: can you share the code where you consume the bytes?
17:18	akells`	djwonk: as in, where I'm writing them out?
17:19	djwonk	sure
17:19	gfredericks	callen: now I know
17:22	akells`	djwonk: sorry it took a minute. http://pastebin.com/s9s2gw0f
17:22	akells`	the top function is just the snippet I'd pasted before
17:23	akells`	I'm able to properly get the length of the byte array -- at the point that its doing the concatenation, it knows the proper size of the image file
17:23	djwonk	akells`: black & white clojure code is hard to read (nudge)... where's the syntax highlighting... :)
17:23	akells`	oh sorry
17:23	akells`	http://pastebin.com/1e1FxBZR
17:25	djwonk	thanks :) I'm no expert, maybe someone else can help. I was just trying to figure out where the files were being opened and closed. it looks implicit -- if so, I'm not sure how you could be messing that up (not saying you are)
17:25	akells`	yeah. something must be going wrong at the concat part, I think. because I have a function that gets the length, and it uses the same .readAllBytes method to get the length
17:26	akells`	so that makes me think that if .readAllBytes is properly returning the length, it is probably also getting all the bytes properly. which would indicate that maybe the problem is somewhere else -- like the concat function or the actual outputting
17:27	mebaran151	easiest way to do an sha1sum?
17:27	djwonk	akells`: any chance you are reading the file twice and messing up the file pointer?
17:29	gdev	lazybot:) whatis he talking about?
17:29	akells`	djwonk: hm I'll look into that
17:38	mchampine	mebaran151: Perhaps https://github.com/franks42/clj.security.message-digest but are you sure you just want SHA1? What's it for?
17:40	mchampine	Don't use SHA1 for password hashing. There are better alternatives.
17:41	aaelony	started playing around with Analemma which is really nice for drawing svg graphs served by ring. xy-plot (https://github.com/liebke/analemma/blob/master/src/analemma/charts.clj) works really well, but trying to figure out how to connect points into lines and also how to add an x label and a y label....
18:00	mebaran151	mchampine: not exactly for password hashing: I wanted an easy way for a partner app to demonstrate it generated a certain bit of JSON
18:09	SegFaultAX	mebaran151: bcrypt for passwords. Seriously.
18:12	arrdem	mebaran151: bcrypt yo you know you want to
18:26	mchampine	mebaran151: I put a snip w/ a simple SHA1 here: http://pastebin.com/3PfQfM7Q
18:27	trptcolin	mebaran151: if that bit of JSON is for the partner app to prove it knows a secret, you probably want a MAC [assuming security actually matters for your use case]. SHA1 is vulnerable to length extensions (https://blog.whitehatsec.com/hash-length-extension-attacks/#.UYLl_Ss4VV8)
18:29	_gdev	gdev: y u no remember to log out
18:30	mchampine	As long as you're just making sure 2 chunks of text match SHA1 is fine. If it's for anything you want to be secure, don't use it. trptcolin is right, use MAC (e.g. HMAC) to prove you know a secret - via challenge/response.
18:47	arohner	are there any libraries (or emacs modes) for properly indenting a chunk of clojure source?
18:47	arohner	with newlines
18:47	hiredman	clojure.pprint has a code mode
18:48	hiredman	which is not perfect by any means, but is better than nothing
18:48	nDuff	emacs isn't that far off with clojure-mode IME
18:49	hiredman	actually, I should say it is pretty good, when I used it last the most annoying thing was docstrings
18:49	hiredman	it would print a doc string like a string literal so "\n" instead of newlines, etc
18:50	arohner	I tried clojure.pprint, but it royally screwed some fns, like (foo \n bar \n baz \n 1 \n 2), etc
18:50	technomancy	yeah, I've had mixed luck with pprint
18:51	hiredman	arohner: using the code-dispatch?
18:51	arohner	hiredman: yes
18:51	hiredman	have you adjusted print-right-margin ?
18:52	hiredman	there is https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp
18:52	arohner	hiredman: ah, no. I'll play with that. thanks
18:52	hiredman	it doesn't have a code mode
18:57	callen	"The latest stable version of Clojure Core is 1.3.0." <-- remind me why we tolerate clojuredocs?
18:59	technomancy	because the alternative is incessant whining?
18:59	callen	technomancy: wasn't there an effort to make a similar site a year'ish ago?
19:00	technomancy	dunno
19:00	callen	it was around the time I was pondering something similar, and I was told not to bother because they had something in the works.
19:00	callen	but nothing's changed, so I'm reconsidering.
19:00	technomancy	there's a new backend
19:00	callen	wut
19:00	callen	technomancy: to clojuredocs.org?
19:00	technomancy	ayup
19:00	technomancy	it's just blocked on someone volunteering to port the rails codes
19:01	callen	still looks to be rails to me.
19:01	callen	if the current app is Rails, what was the old app?
19:01	technomancy	every time it comes up someone is like "oh I guess I should help out with that" and no one ever does
19:01	callen	my solution wasn't really to fix clojure-docs, it was to just make a clojure-backed wiki that was populated with documentation.
19:01	technomancy	the current frontend is from the old version
19:02	technomancy	the current backend is a compojure REST API thingy
19:02	callen	isn't the documentation populated by a script? Why isn't that just re-run for 1.4 and 1.5?
19:02	callen	I feel like I'm missing something here.
19:02	technomancy	I don't think there's a script
19:02	technomancy	it was probably hand-imported
19:03	technomancy	mysql was involved
19:04	arrdem	technomancy: incessant whining is easier than porting a rails app
19:04	arrdem	for now
19:05	callen	so is the issue that the rails app needs to be ported to a clojure app/
19:06	callen	I'm a little puzzled as to why the delineation of frontend rails app // backend compojure app exists.
19:06	technomancy	just a clojure HTML UI really
19:06	callen	I'm bumbling around on his github, looking for that backend.
19:06	technomancy	callen: IIRC the backend was added to make the repl clojuredocs-client more feasible
19:07	arrdem	I mean if it's just an issue of porting the frontend style to a compojure template we have tools to automate a good chunk of that
19:07	arrdem	I and three other ppl have written html -> compojure templating engines
19:07	callen	technomancy: do you know who owns/runs the backend?
19:07	callen	I can't find it on zkim's gh
19:07	technomancy	I know dakrone is involved
19:07	callen	arrdem: no.
19:07	technomancy	antares probably too given how much he goes off on docs
19:08	amalloy	technomancy: i don't think so. i think antares just started clojure-doc.org or whatever, to compete instead of fixing
19:08	technomancy	amalloy: there's no competition really
19:09	technomancy	one is completely static long-form prose, one is per-var reference and comments
19:09	amalloy	sure, the value they provide is totally different. but they're fighting over domain name mindshare :P
19:09	callen	they're both nice to have.
19:10	callen	I just wish the API docs were 1.5
19:10	technomancy	amalloy: long-term plan is to make the prose one a subdomain
19:10	technomancy	I think there were hiccups around domain registration transfer or something
19:11	technomancy	I just use docstrings
19:11	technomancy	and ask on IRC when something is confusing
19:11	technomancy	HTML docstrings are way overrated
19:13	Apage43	If I'm really feeling crazy I'll use markdown docstrings
19:15	arrdem	Apage43: long live lein-marg!
19:16	Apage43	yes :)
19:17	stian_	Want to do a "quantified self" app in Clojure - both to store data from my time tracker (start, end, category), but also be able to insert arbitrary time-based "facts" (time, ran 2km) (day, sleep quality: 4) etc... What would be a good storage layer? I was thinking about a key-value store, but needs to be embedded (this will not be a web app). And need good ability to query on range of time/date.
19:18	arrdem	stian_: first off github that 'cause that's something I've been thinking about for a while
19:18	callen	stian_: don't implement your own logical storage layer yourself
19:18	callen	stian_: use a real database and store time in UTC
19:19	arrdem	stian_: callen beat me to it.
19:19	technomancy	stian_: there's a decent embedded BDB for Java IIRC
19:19	stian_	callen: Yeah, but if embedded, it's basically Sqlite3?
19:19	technomancy	don't use sqlite
19:19	technomancy	on the JVM
19:19	callen	stian_: define embedded for me.
19:19	technomancy	the jdbc bindings are no good
19:19	stian_	callen: I'd like to be able to wrap an uberjar in a DMG, and have someone run it. Witout having to start a Redis server or something
19:19	callen	stian_: because I've known srs-face embedded engineers and people who just mean, "doesn't use a daemon"
19:19	arrdem	stian_: ibdknox's simpledb would probably cut it for a start,
19:20	arrdem	stian_: then transition to a mongo instance
19:20	callen	cringe.
19:20	arrdem	callen: better plan?
19:20	brehaut	doesnt derby come with java these days
19:20	callen	stian_: the most well-tested solution to this "zero-daemon database" is sqlite3, despite the whining about it.
19:20	stian_	arrdem: Mongo instance for a "native" GUI app?
19:21	technomancy	sqlite3 is fantastic
19:21	callen	stian_: bdb is the other well tested solution, but you'll be hacking up your own indices and projections.
19:21	technomancy	if you are not on the JVM
19:21	callen	technomancy: what's the problem with sqlite3 on the JVM?
19:21	callen	arrdem: is this a desktop application?
19:21	technomancy	callen: the jdbc bindings are a mess as soon as you need concurrency
19:21	stian_	H2?
19:21	arrdem	callen: evidently
19:21	hiredman	derby or h2 are both respectable choices
19:21	callen	technomancy: singleton db handler. :P
19:21	stian_	callen: Yes.
19:22	technomancy	use derby or h2 if you need SQL, BDB if you need just k/v
19:22	hiredman	I have a 3 gig h2 db here I've been using for crunching log stats
19:22	callen	stian_: is this a toy or scratch-my-itch thing?
19:22	callen	hiredman makes a good point about derby and h2, assuming JVM is a given.
19:22	stian_	callen: Both :) Just playing around for now, but of course I'll put it on GH and if other people like it, maybe it could become sth more. Not talking about a lot of data though - performance is not a big issue.
19:23	callen	stian_: I'd say sqlite3 with a singleton database handler, h2, or derby.
19:23	stian_	callen: Thanks
19:23	callen	I'm not sure to what extent you're going to need concurrency here.
19:23	stian_	FleetDB?
19:24	callen	stian_: no.
19:28	stian_	OK, I think I'll try with H2.
19:56	pendlepants	anyone have a recommendation for a cassandra library?
20:11	djwonk	I want to apply a function n times. This is what I'm using. Is there a more idiomatic way? (nth (iterate peek my-vector) 2)
20:11	djwonk	I'm grabbing the 'last' part of a nested vector
20:11	djwonk	in the above case, (peek (peek my-vector))
20:11	amalloy	djwonk: no
20:12	amalloy	you could (-> (iterate peek my-vector) (nth 2)) if you want; i don't like nth's argument order, personally
20:12	djwonk	amalloy: thanks! the parsing code I'm working on is pretty fun
20:35	tieTYT2	what if I'm using the threading operator to pass through dissoc and map? The former wants the seq as the first, the second wants it as the last
20:35	tieTYT2	should I just not use threading in this case?
20:37	mthvedt	tietyt2: https://github.com/rplevy/swiss-arrows
20:37	tieTYT2	jesus that's intimidating
20:37	tieTYT2	there's not an easier way?
20:38	tieTYT2	I was hoping I could do this with the ->> operator: #(dissoc % nil)
20:38	mthvedt	tietyt2: i think that's allowed
20:38	mthvedt	also
20:38	Raynes	tieTYT2: You should just not use threading in that case.
20:39	Raynes	Please don't try to hack around things just to use the threading operators.
20:39	Raynes	They're made for specific situations.
20:39	tieTYT2	I did this: (->> (dissoc consents nil) vals (map count) (filter #(not= 1 %)) empty?)
20:40	tieTYT2	that's not too hacky is it?
20:40	Raynes	No.
20:40	tieTYT2	ok good
20:40	tieTYT2	i don't understand why my anonymous fn didn't work though
20:40	tieTYT2	it said it couldn't convert something into an ISeq
20:40	mthvedt	i think you have to do
20:40	mthvedt	(#(blah blah))
20:41	tieTYT2	oh yeah
20:41	tieTYT2	it looks better the way I wrote it so I'll leave it like that
20:46	mthvedt	if you have a long threading chain, it's often easier just to stick a (#()) in there
20:46	mthvedt	i don't think it's more obscure than lots of irritating superfluous parens
20:48	tieTYT2	seems practical, thanks
20:48	tieTYT2	i lucked out that I didn't need to do that
20:48	mthvedt	yeah, your solution is fine, i was just trying to be passive-aggressive towards raynes
20:49	mthvedt	:P
20:49	tieTYT2	hah
20:49	xeqi	you wont win that battle
20:49	amalloy	haha
20:49	mthvedt	passive aggression isn't choosing battles… it's a lifestyle
20:50	tieTYT2	thanks, ttyl
20:51	Raynes	I've been called the king of passive aggressiveness before.
20:51	Raynes	Be careful.
20:53	xeqi	or direct aggressiveness https://twitter.com/IORayne/status/247648094362157057
21:01	dobry-den	there is just no end to raynes' rage. i encountered this gh issue last week https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el/issues/83#issuecomment-8794778
21:02	Raynes	That was my very thoroughly filtered thoughts.
21:04	mthvedt	raynes? more like
21:04	mthvedt	raygenes
21:04	mthvedt	(one syllable)
21:08	djwonk	is `conj` efficient for vectors? If so, how would I know from the docs?
21:09	gfredericks	,(doc conj)
21:09	clojurebot	"([coll x] [coll x & xs]); conj[oin]. Returns a new collection with the xs 'added'. (conj nil item) returns (item). The 'addition' may happen at different 'places' depending on the concrete type."
21:09	gfredericks	it's _very_ mildly implied from the last sentence
21:11	djwonk	thanks gfredericks
21:11	gfredericks	the idea is that conj adds things in a way that's appropriate for the datatype
21:12	djwonk	it is mentioned on the cheatsheet at http://clojure.org/cheatsheet, but not at this summary of vector functions: http://clojure.org/data_structures#Data Structures-Vectors (IPersistentVector)-Related functions
21:12	djwonk	so there is a slight disconnect in the docs as to the question of "is conj encouraged" for vectors
21:12	gfredericks	it definitely is
21:13	gfredericks	assoc works too but you have to know the index so that's dumb
21:13	djwonk	thanks
21:13	akhudek	conj is amortized log32n or something for vectors, so very fast
21:39	gfredericks	,(let [v (vec (range 10000))] (time (dotimes [_ 10000] (conj v :foo))))
21:39	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 5.003558 msecs"\n
21:39	gfredericks	,(let [l (apply list (range 10000))] (time (dotimes [_ 10000] (conj l :foo))))
21:39	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 1.476985 msecs"\n
21:40	xeqi	you know the bots sandbox and manipulate forms so their timing will be way off
21:40	gfredericks	,(let [s (set (range 10000))] (time (dotimes [_ 10000] (conj s :foo))))
21:40	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 12.914148 msecs"\n
21:40	gfredericks	this is the most scientific way to do it
21:40	xeqi	ah, then carry on
21:40	gfredericks	:)
21:40	gfredericks	that's a good point I hadn't thought of that
21:41	xeqi	also, don't trust clojure benchmarks that don't use criterium
21:41	xeqi	https://github.com/hugoduncan/criterium
22:03	SegFaultAX	Github down again?
22:03	TimMc	Nope.
22:03	TimMc	How the crud am I allegedly calling RT.readString here? Stack trace: https://gist.github.com/timmc/5506742 code: https://github.com/timmc/kpawebgen/blob/collapse-tagcat/clj/src/kpawebgen/spit.clj#L46
22:03	SegFaultAX	Weird, it isn't loading for me.
22:04	hiredman	I've been having weird issues connecting various hosts via the internet all day
22:04	SegFaultAX	hiredman: How else might you connect to them? ;)
22:05	hiredman	well hosts my lan are fine :P
22:05	hiredman	on
22:05	SegFaultAX	:D
22:05	holo	hi
22:05	SegFaultAX	I can literally connect to any other site.
22:06	hiredman	the first thing I noticed was google search where taking a long time
22:07	hiredman	and what I see now is I have a list of 6-7 hosts and run 5 pings against them, every time another one of the hosts has all 5 pings timeout
22:07	hiredman	TimMc: preconditions and macros can both screw with line numbers
22:08	TimMc	It has to be a macro, right? The stack trace indicates a direct call from my code.
22:08	amalloy	TimMc: no, see the <clinit>?
22:09	TimMc	Ugh, yes. Class init?
22:09	amalloy	that's spit$ensure-db$fn being compiled, not being called
22:09	amalloy	i've seen this a couple times in 1.5.x, and i don't really understand enough about classloading to know why clinit is happening at runtime
22:09	hiredman	that is the compiled code being loaded
22:10	amalloy	i've gotta run; i hope you guys leave an interesting explanation in the scrollback for me
22:10	TimMc	I think I'll sleep on it. :-/
22:10	TimMc	(Maybe you'll figure it out before me!)
22:10	hiredman	clinit is what java static inits are compiled to
22:11	hiredman	so the code is already compiled, so this is happening as the compiled classfile is loaded and the static init is called
22:11	hiredman	which makes sense, because that is where any compiler emited calls to re-hydrate a pr'ed data structure would happen
22:11	hiredman	which it would do using read-string
22:12	lfranchi	dumb clojure question... what's the most "clojure-ish" way to, given a seq of ints, generate a new seq with the nth element changed?
22:13	hiredman	don't use a seq
22:13	SegFaultAX	Weird, I can connect to github repos just fine but not github.com
22:13	lfranchi	it can be a vector, as well
22:13	hiredman	use a data structure with indexed access and indexed updates (vectors or maps)
22:14	hiredman	vectors are associative of indices to elements
22:15	lfranchi	yeah, so if I want to get a new vector with a changed item at index n, what's the best way of doing that with a vector?
22:15	hiredman	can you think of another associative data structure?
22:15	lfranchi	ah, I can use assoc w/ a vector. interesting
22:16	lfranchi	thanks for the tips :)
22:19	holo	read-str disappeared from cljs-uuid.core since last version of cljs-uuid. I used to use it from the clojure side to read raw uuid like "7dc53df5-703e-49b3-8670-b1c468f47f1f". is there a more standard way of doing this now? I can just plug the deleted implementation in my project though
22:41	technomancy	holo: you can read #uuid"7dc53df5-703e-49b3-8670-b1c468f47f1f" with the reader these days
22:43	TimMc	hiredman: That all sounds very well and good, but I've been running with -Dclojure.read.eval=unknown for a while and this is the first time I've seen this. I don't see any fancy syntax here either.
22:45	holo	technomancy, I don't have a #uuid"7dc53df5-703e-49b3-8670-b1c468f47f1f", but instead a "7dc53df5-703e-49b3-8670-b1c468f47f1f"
22:47	hiredman	TimMc: shrug have you upgraded any libraries recently? have you run `lein clean` recently?
22:47	TimMc	No, yes.
22:48	TimMc	I also tried to pare down the code to find the piece at fault, but I overshot. There's a lot of I/O here to work around. :-/
22:48	technomancy	holo: oh, you don't control the format; gotcha
22:49	hiredman	TimMc: if you had not run `lein clean` in while and had stale class files sitting around, running `lein clean` could have triggered the change
22:50	TimMc	Mmm, I see. Nothing's AOT'd, though.
22:50	hiredman	you could find the classfile it is blowing up on (assuming you aot) and run javap on it to take a look at the bytecode to find the printed form that is being read
22:57	brehaut	yeah
22:57	brehaut	oops
22:59	TimMc	When I do (compile 'kpawebgen.spit) and then javap the relevant class file, I get https://gist.github.com/timmc/5506900
23:02	TimMc	...why does that have the namespace's docstring embedded in it?
23:04	TimMc	Maybe that's just an inlined constant...?
23:04	hiredman	I wonder if slingshot is doing it for some reason
23:07	hiredman	hah
23:08	hiredman	it is from logging
23:08	hiredman	taoensso.timbre
23:08	Recursive	,(doc ->)
23:08	clojurebot	"([x] [x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
23:09	TimMc	hiredman: ! How can you tell?
23:10	TimMc	That was definitely it -- I upgraded timbre from 1.5.2 to 1.6.0. What the hell was it up to?
23:11	hiredman	somewhere it using the output of a pedicate in a macro, but the predicate doesn't return booleans
23:11	hiredman	in the true case it returns a namespace object or something like it
23:12	hiredman	https://github.com/ptaoussanis/timbre/blob/master/src/taoensso/timbre.clj#L304 is the predicate
23:12	hiredman	dunno what macro it is
23:13	hiredman	it is fixed in the current master of timbre
23:13	hiredman	https://github.com/ptaoussanis/timbre/commit/0dc4951db73eca38951a29dd8c751e60d799b4e4
23:13	holo	technomancy, ,(java.util.UUID/fromString "7dc53df5-703e-49b3-8670-b1c468f47f1f")
23:13	Recursive	,(java.util.UUID/fromString "7dc53df5-703e-49b3-8670-b1c468f47f1f")
23:13	clojurebot	#uuid "7dc53df5-703e-49b3-8670-b1c468f47f1f"
23:15	TimMc	hiredman: Man, how did you track that down?
23:15	TimMc	And thank you.
23:15	holo	thank you Recursive
23:15	hiredman	it was the closest recognizable string to the readString call in the javap output
23:16	TimMc	Ah, I see -- https://gist.github.com/timmc/5506900#file-gistfile1-java-L699 "78:ldc#81; //String taoensso.timbre"
23:17	holo	(inc Recursive)
23:17	lazybot	⇒ 1
23:17	hiredman	yep
23:17	holo	(inc technomancy)
23:17	lazybot	⇒ 52
23:17	TimMc	Or I guess line 692, ns-filter-cache.
23:24	djwonk	to append one vector to another, I'm using `into`. Should I look at other options?
23:24	djwonk	,(doc into)
23:24	clojurebot	"([to from]); Returns a new coll consisting of to-coll with all of the items of from-coll conjoined."
23:25	technomancy	into is great
23:26	yacin	any idea what this error is? CompilerException java.lang.ClassFormatError: Invalid method Code length 236383 in class file pdns/lab$eval36980, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1)
23:26	yacin	it may be a cascalog issue, but searching google didn't yield any good cascalog leads
23:26	yacin	thought i'd ask here too
23:30	danielglauser	djwonk: Looking at the code for into if the first collection is an IEditableCollection (I'm assuming most Clojure data structures are) then it has a fair amount of optimizations if that is your concern.
23:33	djwonk	danielglauser: not extremely worried about performance... just was rooting around looking for 'merge' or 'append' and didn't find those, so when I found 'into' I figured that was the way to go
23:33	djwonk	technomancy: thanks
23:34	holo	yacin, I found this doing a little search on google. hope it helps: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/clojure/7mdnjn1vyYc
23:34	danielglauser	djwonk: Cool
23:42	yacin	holo: hmm, this definitely seems somewhat related. thanks
23:43	yacin	i'm dealing with large sets, but i'm def'ing them so they should have vars
23:43	yacin	which someone suggested would fix it
23:46	yacin	and i'm already reading the sets from a separate file. hmm
23:51	axle_512	hey guys, I'm writing a high performance scheduler in clojure (partly as a learning experience)
23:52	axle_512	I have the code here: https://github.com/stephenjohnston/clj-sked
23:52	axle_512	it uses promises to deliver the results of scheduled items, can handle hundreds of thousands of simultaneous jobs
23:52	axle_512	would appreciate any positive critique
23:54	akhudek	how does it compare to Quartzite?
23:54	Raynes	amalloy and I did some cool scheduling stuff recently that you might like axle_512. First, we devised a library that he wrote called chronicle https://github.com/flatland/chronicle (very new and currently undocumented, but I'll fix that soon) that can be used to generate an infinite seq of Joda DateTime objects based on a simple cron-like spec. It doesn't have a scheduling piece included, but...
23:55	Raynes	I wrote this naive little scheduler based on it: https://github.com/flatland/turntable/blob/master/src/flatland/turntable/timer.clj
23:55	axle_512	raynes: Sounds really interesting, I'll definitely take a look. I don't have cron support, but it was something I was thinking of adding.
23:55	Raynes	I want to tear that out into a library and making it better (i.e. use executers instead of timers, probably)
23:56	Raynes	axle_512: I really like the idea of chronicle because it's so much more general than a scheduling specific library and can be used as the lower-level of such a scheduling library.
23:56	axle_512	akhudek: I believe quartzite is a wrapper around quartz. Quartz will have a lot more features, my little scheduler is only 100 lines of code.
23:56	akhudek	yes, but that's 100 lines of clojure :-)
23:57	axle_512	raynes: reading the source for flatland now
23:58	Raynes	axle_512: You pass 'schedule' a function to execute at the specific times and a chronicle spec (which is basically a Clojureized version of a cron spec) like {:minute [0 15 35 45]} to run every 15 minutes, for example.
23:58	Raynes	It could be made much more robust, but it's really easy to implement these kinds of things in terms of chronicle.
23:59	Raynes	I did timer.clj in like 10 minutes.
23:59	holo	yacin, glad it could help
23:59	Raynes	Anyways, enough tooting our horn. I just haven't told anyone about chronicle and it's kind of like finding religion, you want to tell everyone about it and make them do it too.