#clojure – 2013-04-24

2013-04-24

00:01	pppaul	walking is awesome
00:03	pppaul	i have a walk that turns everything it touches into a set
00:03	pppaul	:)
00:03	pppaul	i use walks for datomic stuff too
01:30	beaky	hello
01:32	beaky	how do I learn the clojure language?
01:32	callen	beaky: hello
01:32	callen	beaky: buy a book
01:32	callen	beaky: I recommend Cemerick's
01:32	beaky	ah
01:32	callen	beaky: SegFaultAX: something
01:32	callen	beaky: http://www.clojurebook.com/
01:42	tdignan	callen: i bought a book
01:43	tdignan	but I don't know clojure
01:43	tdignan	what do I do next?
01:43	tdignan	seriously, I bought the book. idled in the irc for a month, but not a lick of clojure.
01:43	tdignan	do I have to actually read the book as well?
01:43	tdignan	tbh, it intimidates me a lot.
01:44	tdignan	its so unlike anything else i've done.
01:44	Raynes	Well, you're never going to want to lick the Clojure.
01:45	tdignan	That is a quite possible outcome.
01:45	Oddman	tdignan, that's functional programming for you
01:45	Oddman	:P
01:47	beaky	clojure looks like scheme
01:47	callen	Clojure is relatively easy, as far as functional languages go.
01:47	callen	It's not the "pull brain out of you through your asshole" experience that Haskell represents.
01:48	tdignan	oh, yeah. i looked at haskell once years ago.
01:48	callen	looking doesn't really do anything
01:48	callen	which might explain why you haven't learned Clojure yet either.
01:49	tdignan	I haven't learned something just for the sake of learning it for a long time.
01:49	tdignan	usually i just learn the things I need to know to build things.
01:52	tdignan	I suppose I'm not the only one to give up here.
01:52	callen	tdignan: why are you here?
01:53	tdignan	callen: um, I thought idling here and watching people talk about clojure would help to stoke my interest more
01:53	tdignan	I've been on autojoin for a month
01:58	beaky	so the bird book is the one to go for for beginners?
01:58	Pupnik-	ive been working with that one
01:58	Pupnik-	i think it is good
02:00	tdignan	looks like there is also a free webcast by the author on may 1st
02:00	tdignan	...2012
02:00	tdignan	nevermind
02:01	beaky	what are the challenges to learning clojure?
02:06	tdignan	beaky: i can tell you why I haven't learned it yet. it's unlike anything else I know, and I don't actually need to learn it.
02:07	tdignan	i'm sure your challenges will be unique to your own mind.
02:07	beaky	ah
02:08	beaky	I know c++
02:08	beaky	so I am probably going to have a tough time :D
02:08	beaky	since clojure is so different from those braces languages
02:10	beaky	but I want to use it to build a data processing app
02:11	Raynes	Every single app ever is a data processing app.
02:11	beaky	heh
02:11	beaky	apps are just sequences of bits that flip other sequences of bits
02:13	beaky	clojure doesn't seem particularly object-oriented
02:13	tdignan	apps are programs that flip tons of redundant sequences of bits so the programmer can actually get done in a reasonable amount of time
02:13	tdignan	nope. it's a functional language.
02:14	beaky	functional? like C?
02:14	tdignan	C is procedural
02:14	beaky	ah
02:14	tdignan	the main difference has to do with keeping state. a purely functional program doesn't have it.
02:15	beaky	so a language like clojure does away with flipping bits
02:15	tdignan	the bits do flip. the code itself is data.
02:15	beaky	ah
02:16	tdignan	so a clojure program, is actually data, that gets read by a parser, which then executes the code... which itself is actually flat text, data :)
02:16	Chousuke	a purely functional program does have state. it's just explicit and individual states are generally immutable values
02:17	Chousuke	Haskell takes value-oriented programming to an extreme. even I/O is pure in haskell :P
02:17	beaky	ah
02:17	beaky	so a functional programming language just views state as data/values, and functions are just maps between values?
02:18	beaky	(like mathematical functions)
02:18	sparkjoy	That's a good way to think of it
02:18	Chousuke	that's maybe oversimplifying a bit, but yes
02:19	Chousuke	when you work in a truly "pure" language you need some creativity to be able to do certain things that are "easy" in an impure language (I/O is the usual example)
02:20	beaky	is IO pure in clojure like haskell?
02:20	Chousuke	nah, clojure is not a purely functional language
02:20	beaky	ah, so clojure is more practical ^^
02:20	sparkjoy	very much so
02:21	Chousuke	it's not more practical for that reason
02:21	Chousuke	it may be more practical because of JVM interop, but not because it's impure
02:21	callen	tdignan: code being data has nothing to do with being functional, that's homoiconicity.
02:21	Raynes	It's certainly more practical for people without the patience necessary to learn Haskell well enough to use it properly.
02:22	callen	Raynes: I don't think the purity is the confusing part with Haskell.
02:22	Raynes	callen: Wasn't saying it was.
02:22	Chousuke	the way haskell does IO is instead of "functions" that just do it, IO actions are represented as values that don't actually do anything until the runtime "interprets" them
02:22	callen	fair enough.
02:23	Chousuke	so you can store those values in data structures and copy them around, since without the runtime interpretation they don't actually have side-effects
02:24	beaky	so clojure is practical because it runs on the jvm and has seamless java interop and lisp metaprogramming facilities?
02:24	Chousuke	Clojure is practical if you can use it to solve a problem you have
02:24	beaky	ah
02:24	Chousuke	if you can't, it's not practical, in your case.
02:25	Chousuke	"practical" is very relative
02:25	Chousuke	Some people would consider Agda to be practical because they need to write formally verifiable software :P
02:25	beaky	right
02:26	beaky	I guess sometimes the functional style is very practical
02:26	Chousuke	it has many benefits
02:26	Chousuke	the main one, to me, is having fewer things interacting
02:26	Chousuke	so fewer things to worry about
02:27	Chousuke	when working with mutable data, in theory anything could interact with anything else at any point during execution, so you have no guarantees, and have to code in a way that minimizes the likelihood of such interactions occurring when not intended
02:28	Chousuke	if you work with immutable data, you have a guarantee that nothing will affect it short of hardware failure
02:28	matko	mutability is adventurous, living on the edge
02:29	matko	there's actually no such guarantees though, are there? Reflection lets you 'break in' at any time if you wish
02:29	Chousuke	well, that's true. but such violations would be easy to spot
02:30	Chousuke	you can't do something like that by mistake
02:30	beaky	in rich hickey's talk about simplifying programs he did mention that immutable data simplifies things a ton; does clojure give lots of help in having immutable data? (C++ isn't really helping much in that area :( )
02:31	Chousuke	All of clojure's basic data structures are immutable
02:31	sparkjoy	immutability is the default in clojure
02:31	Chousuke	there's also a system for safely handling shared state, with well-defined concurrency semantics
02:32	sparkjoy	immutable + persistent (e.g. efficient versioning) data structures are really handy and idiomatic
02:33	sparkjoy	we've been doing a lot of functional style work in an OO language, with somewhat persistent data structures, but it's not idiomatic and sometimes it can be painful
02:33	Chousuke	personally I find it difficult to work with mutable data nowadays
02:33	Chousuke	it's frustrating to have to worry about making mistakes.
02:33	sparkjoy	you find yourself fighting the language a lot - clojure makes these things much easier
02:35	sparkjoy	right I can't tell you how many times as a library developer I've been handed a mutable collection and wondered, "should I clone this, or is it gonna be stable"
02:35	Chousuke	say if in python you have a list full of dictionaries full of lists and want to transform it somehow. it ends up being rather painful.
02:36	Chousuke	especially if you want to hold on to the non-transformed version
02:38	Chousuke	for example, what if one of the lists you're transforming is being shared with some other part of the code? you've just broken things.
02:38	Chousuke	it's not fun
02:39	murtaza52	(def primitive-conv {:I 1 :V 5 :X 10 :L 50 :C 100 :D 500 :M 1000})
02:39	murtaza52	(defn substraction-rule
02:39	murtaza52	[coll]
02:39	murtaza52	(map #(if (primitive-conv %1)
02:39	murtaza52	(if (< (primitive-conv %1) (primitive-conv %2))
02:39	murtaza52	(list '- %2 %1)
02:39	murtaza52	%1)
02:39	murtaza52	%1)
02:39	murtaza52	coll
02:39	murtaza52	(rest coll)))
02:39	murtaza52	(substraction-rule b) => (+ (- :L :X) :L :I)
02:39	murtaza52	expected => (+ (- :L :X) :I :I)
02:39	brainproxy	murtaza52: gist or refheap please
02:39	brainproxy	don't paste in chan
02:39	murtaza52	How do I correct the above fn ?
02:39	murtaza52	sorry let me do that
02:45	murtaza52	Can anyone help is getting this right - https://www.refheap.com/paste/13927
02:51	matko	so why is 'ideomatic' so important? Like, I had a debate the other day about (seq collection) vs (not (empty? collection)), where the other guy argued that (seq collection) was the more ideomatic way to check for non-emptyness, and the documentation seems to concur. Why is 'one way' so important?
02:52	antares_	matko: it's not more idiomatic. Also, it's a matter of taste. Use (not (empty? …)) if you prefer that.
02:52	matko	ok, so maybe I have the wrong definition of ideomatic in my head
02:52	matko	I've really only ever heard this word in clojure context
02:52	Chousuke	actually using (seq foo) in a boolean context is a Clojure idiom
02:53	matko	I prefer (not empty? ..) cause it gives true rather than a value
02:53	matko	err.. messed that up, but you get the idea
02:53	Chousuke	and (not (empty? foo)) is the same as (not (not (seq foo))
02:53	Chousuke	see the definition of empty?
02:53	matko	reading it now..
02:54	Chousuke	idiomatic just means something that is commonly accepted as being good style
02:55	Chousuke	and an idiom is an instance of that. eg. it's a clojure idiom to use map/filter instead of explicit loops
02:55	matko	so why does this matter? I mean, 'good style' of course matters, but is (seq foo) truly better style than (not (empty? foo))? I find that rather arbitrary
02:55	antares_	but it doesn't have to be the only style
02:55	Chousuke	matko: it is arbitrary, but that's what makes it an idiom
02:56	Chousuke	it's the accepted choice among many.
02:56	matko	>Heh, but what is the purpose of having an accepted choice?
02:56	Chousuke	well, lots of Clojure functions deal with sequences
02:57	rodnaph_	can anyone tell me how to emit a "debugger;" statement via clojurescript?
02:57	noidi	when there's a Right Way (tm) to do something, it's easy to see what the code is doing just by its shape
02:57	Chousuke	so (seq foo) fell out from that
02:57	Chousuke	and it's shorter. and faster :P
02:57	rodnaph_	gah! got it, just as i had given up (http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11181752/clojurescript-breakpoints)
02:58	noidi	in C there's an idiom for iterating over a collection: for (i = 0; i < size; i++). everyone who sees that knows immediately what's going on
02:58	noidi	of course you could use a while loop there, but that would not be idiomatic, and it would require more thinking from the reader to see what the loop's about
02:58	Chousuke	noidi: it's also an idiom in C to treat integers as booleans, for whatever reason
02:59	matko	Chousuke: ah, that makes sense
02:59	Chousuke	it makes no sense if you start thinking about it but no-one considers it weird at all in the context of C
02:59	matko	noidi: but I disagree with the idea that (seq foo) looks clearer than (not (empty? foo)) :p
03:00	noidi	seq vs. not empty? is not the best example of a clojure idiom, as it's one that many people disagree with
03:00	matko	at least I know a rationale behind it now
03:00	Chousuke	matko: it doesn't look clearer, but since you should know what seq does if you want to get anything done in Clojure, you learn that particular idiom quite quickly
03:00	Chousuke	and then it will look clearer
03:00	Chousuke	because it's shorter
03:00	noidi	a better example might be mapping over a map: (into {} (for [[k v]] m] [k (f v)]))
03:01	matko	well I come from a common lisp background, so I'm very familiar with using value and nil as true and false.. it just striked me as odd that clojure would do it when it also has boolean values
03:01	tieTYT	with gen-class, is it possible to pass the :methods in as a variable? I'm not sure how to do that because it needs a symbol in it (the name of the method without the prefix)
03:01	noidi	you see "into {}" and "for [[k v]] m]" quite often in clojure code
03:01	Chousuke	matko: booleans are there only for java interop
03:02	matko	haha really? I thought they were there from scheme
03:03	Chousuke	it's a wart, but a necessary one
03:03	Chousuke	it would be difficult to use Java libraries without access to booleans
03:04	matko	But clojure propositions return true or false as well
03:04	antares_	Chousuke: I doubt that
03:04	Chousuke	that just helps when calling them from Java
03:04	amalloy	Chousuke: i disagree that booleans are only for java interop
03:04	Chousuke	most clojure code doesn't really care.
03:05	Chousuke	amalloy: well, they are useful outside it too, but not required
03:06	amalloy	lists and numbers aren't required either: we could just work with church encodings in the lambda calculus. but they're easier and more sensible to work with, and so are booleans. why should (= 1 2) return the empty list instead of false?
03:06	Chousuke	nil is not the empty list
03:06	Chousuke	() is the empty list
03:07	matko	wait what.. nil is not '()?
03:07	Chousuke	I'm just saying that Clojure has no real need for explicit booleans because you could use nil and anything non-nil instead
03:07	Chousuke	Right. nil is not ()
03:07	matko	wow confused
03:08	Chousuke	in Clojure nil means "nothing"
03:08	matko	it also evaluates as true it seems
03:08	matko	in an if
03:08	Chousuke	yeah, because it's a value
03:08	beaky	does clojure have tail-call optimization?
03:08	sparkjoy	not automatically, beaky - need to use recur explicitly
03:08	matko	unfortunately it doesn't have tail-call optimization
03:09	Chousuke	the JVM doesn't guarantee tail-call elimination
03:09	Chousuke	people get this stuff confused really easily
03:09	Chousuke	there's a difference between doing tail-call elimination and guaranteeing it
03:10	Chousuke	the latter is an issue of language semantics. the former is just an optimization.
03:10	sparkjoy	good point
03:10	beaky	ah
03:11	beaky	too bad :(
03:11	matko	so, nil and false are false, everything else is true, and the seq trick works cause seq returns nil rather than the empty list when called on an empty collection
03:11	matko	this feels.. hackish
03:11	xxxyxxyxx	oioiiiiiii9o99
03:11	xxxyxxyxx	madar chod
03:13	beaky	what is clojure's associative model for data?
03:13	beaky	is it like a map?
03:13	sparkjoy	maps and records
03:14	beaky	ah neat
03:14	sparkjoy	records give you associative via a class, higher perf, easy to move to once you've figured out your model with a map
03:15	Chousuke	matko: the way seq works is that if you have something in a collection, it will returns a seq representing the contents. if there is nothing, it returns nothing (nil)
03:15	beaky	records are like structs in C, or classes with no methods and all data fields public in java?
03:15	beaky	or ADTs like in haskell?
03:16	Chousuke	records are an optimization of maps
03:16	sparkjoy	public final fields on a gen'd java class
03:16	matko	Chousuke: I see that, but don't understand the reason for not returning an empty list instead, exept to return something that evaluates to false.. but in that case I don't get why empty list is not false in the first place.. eh, it doesn't matter much
03:17	Chousuke	matko: it's not false because there are other empty things
03:17	Chousuke	an empty list is distinct from an empty vector
03:17	katratxo	matko: only false and nil are "falsy"
03:17	Chousuke	and I think treating nil as an empty list is a mistake that CL made.
03:18	sparkjoy	oh interesting point about () and [] - never thought about it that way
03:18	matko	it made recursing over lists easy
03:18	matko	(in common lisp)
03:19	Chousuke	I suppose seqs in clojure are sort of like CL lists in that regard
03:19	Chousuke	you can recurse until (seq whatever) returns nil
03:20	Chousuke	and because you're calling seq in the recursion, the function works the same for all seqable data structures
03:20	matko	yes, I like how clojure made vector and map as easy to use as lists
03:21	sparkjoy	one quick point about (seq foo) - if foo is a lazy seq, in my experiments this causes foo to materialize. Just tested it on an infinite seq and it materialized the first 32 items.
03:21	sparkjoy	that surprised me the first time I saw it
03:21	Chousuke	sparkjoy: yeah it has to force one element to know if there are any
03:21	sparkjoy	makes me less confident that (seq foo) is faster than (not (empty? foo))
03:22	sparkjoy	if you weren't going to materialize it I suppose
03:22	Chousuke	sparkjoy: it is faster because empty? is defined in terms of seq :P
03:22	sparkjoy	LOL nm then
03:22	sparkjoy	that's funny
03:22	Chousuke	32 elements getting realized is just an internal optimization (chunking)
03:22	sparkjoy	yea that's what I figured
03:23	Chousuke	in general, having sequences with side-effects is a bad idea
03:23	sparkjoy	yea, I threw a println in a map to test it out
03:23	sparkjoy	was just curious
03:23	mthvedt	sequences with side-effects were a pretty fun paradigm for some computations
03:24	mthvedt	now, you have to be careful about chunks
03:25	Chousuke	laziness and side-effects don't mix very well with dynamic typing :P
03:27	mthvedt	chousuke: i can think of a billion procedural languages with dynamic typing
03:27	Chousuke	actually, any time side-effects are involved you just need to be careful, regardless of the language or its laziness.
03:28	Chousuke	mthvedt: sure, but lazy + effectful is already a bit of a problem. In Haskell's case, the type system at least helps a bit.
03:29	mthvedt	well one reason haskell needs that, though, is because it enforces laziness
03:29	Chousuke	fortunately laziness in Clojure is restricted to sequences so it's easier to control
03:29	mthvedt	clojure isn't a lazy language, it's an eager in-order language
03:29	mthvedt	but a lot of lazy paradigms are used
03:30	mthvedt	because they are useful and convenient
03:30	Chousuke	I don't mind Haskell's laziness though. There are many useful things you can do only because it is lazy.
03:31	beaky	haskell avoids success at all costs :D
03:31	mthvedt	idk, haskell reminds me of the guy who could be a successful manager but would rather be a senior engineer instead
03:32	mthvedt	where playing with neat ideas > practicality
03:32	Chousuke	it does make things harder for people trying to figure out how to make things efficient, but the haskell community is full of smart library writers solving that problem.
03:32	Chousuke	mthvedt: the thing is, those neat ideas turn out to be practical once you get them fleshed out
03:33	Chousuke	Functors and applicatives are something everyone uses. Monads too.
03:33	mthvedt	well, monads are like
03:34	mthvedt	you can do all these neat things with monads and monadic flow control, but that doesn't explain why you need them to write to stdout
03:34	Chousuke	mthvedt: You don't need monads to write to stdout
03:34	mthvedt	chousuke: really? hacker news threads have lied to me
03:34	Chousuke	mthvedt: the thing is, if you want to write to stdout, you have a monad
03:35	Chousuke	it's not that monad -> ability to write to stdout
03:35	Chousuke	it's that ability to write to stdout -> monad
03:36	mthvedt	i have to confess that's not very eludicating
03:36	Chousuke	mthvedt: I assume you already understand that haskell is pure? basically everything is an immutable, side-effect free value
03:37	Chousuke	representing side-effects in a system like this may seem difficult at first but it's really not
03:37	Chousuke	all you need is the ability to treat the "instructions" as values
03:37	Chousuke	and then the runtime will interpret those instructions
03:38	Chousuke	so when you say main = getLine in haskell, you're saying that the value of main is getLine
03:38	Chousuke	and when the program executes, it "sees" that the value of main is getLine, and does what it needs to do
03:38	beaky	how does clojure compare to haskell in expressiveness? I guess clojure wins in that ballpark thanks to dynamic typing and metaprogramming facilities
03:38	Chousuke	what monads accomplish is allow you to combine two values into one that represents both
03:39	beaky	or is haskell's magical type system surprisingly expressive?
03:39	Chousuke	so you can say main = getLine >>= putStrLn
03:40	Chousuke	which just says "the value of main is the combination of getLine followed putStrLn with the result of getLine"
03:40	Chousuke	followed by*
03:40	Chousuke	and that's it
03:40	mthvedt	yes, and that's what i'm getting at
03:41	mthvedt	it's dancing around an impedance mismatch, followed by bragging about how neat the dance was
03:41	Chousuke	mthvedt: there is no impedance mismatch
03:41	Chousuke	int main() { x = getLine(); putStrLn(x) } says the exact same thing
03:42	tcrayford	beaky: I've never had a problem with expressiveness in either language. Clojure has macros, haskell makes it super easy to write a dsl with free monads/data types.
03:42	beaky	ah
03:43	Chousuke	mthvedt: the cool thing in haskell is that it recognises that the operation that combines the two substeps also applies to a lot of other things.
03:43	Chousuke	for example, callbacks-oriented control flow can be represented as promises
03:44	Chousuke	and the operations to combine promises... form a monad
03:44	mthvedt	i know how monads work
03:44	mthvedt	if that wasn't clear before
03:47	Chousuke	at any rate, the point is that you don't need monads to do IO, callbacks, or short circuiting evaluation.
03:47	Chousuke	but since you do all of those things anyway
03:47	Chousuke	and all of them form monads
03:47	Chousuke	why would you not use monads?
03:49	Glenjamin	what's the advantage of doing (do a b) to represent (a >>= b) instead of having the language allow a; b ?
03:50	beaky	a >>= b is formally recognized by the type system
03:50	Glenjamin	or i guess, why do i need to know it's a monad
03:50	mthvedt	that's a good question to ask anyone who's ever done unsafeperformio
03:50	beaky	once you know that something forms a monad, you can do cool stuff that worked on other monads :D
03:51	clgv	Glenjamin: good question, e.g. I can use `for` and do not need to know that it is a monad in principle... ;)
03:51	Glenjamin	i'm ok at basic haskell, but i never really grokked monads - so never done anything more complex than homework assignments
03:51	Glenjamin	the list monad being some form of nondeterministic search really confused me
03:52	mthvedt	the other thing is
03:52	Glenjamin	and then you get into arrows and functors, it often felt like abstraction for abstractions sake
03:52	mthvedt	should a language really have a high barrier to entry for doing io
03:53	noprompt	i think it largely depends on what the goals of the language are.
03:53	Glenjamin	just because everything i do is equivalent to a mathematical model doesn't mean i want to deal with the model most of the time
03:54	Chousuke	Glenjamin: the nondeterminism is actually not that hard to understand
03:54	Chousuke	Glenjamin: you can think of a nondeterministic function as one that retuns a list of all its possible outputs
03:54	mthvedt	in practice, a lot of people don't understand it
03:55	Glenjamin	i know, but why treating lists as monads make them deterministic was lost on me
03:55	Glenjamin	it was like discovering prolog hidden in the standard sequence container
03:55	Chousuke	Glenjamin: then combining a nondeterministic function with another means running the other function with every output from the first one
03:55	Chousuke	and concatenating the result
03:56	Chousuke	and that operation of combining them is what gives you a monad (along with a return operation)
03:57	Chousuke	the benefit from treating things as monads generically is that you can write functions that work across all monads
03:57	Chousuke	and if you have syntactic support for one monad, you have syntactic support for all monads
03:59	Chousuke	imagine if in C++ you could just do foo (Foo* x) {return x.doSomething()} and if x is null you just get a null.
04:00	Glenjamin	i don't write in C++, but that seems like how all the high level languages without monads work in that scenario
04:00	Glenjamin	oh, sorry misread
04:01	Chousuke	Glenjamin: the thing is, people are adding these things into languages as special cases
04:01	Chousuke	some languages have .? for null propagation
04:02	Glenjamin	mm, because you often don't want null to make it further through the computation and blow up when you need a value to do something useful
04:02	Chousuke	then there are those coffeescript extensions with await and whatnot for less insane node.js programming
04:02	Chousuke	whereas if you just had a neat syntax for >>=, you'd get all that for free.
04:02	noprompt	less insane node.js programming?
04:02	noprompt	not sure if that's saying much. :)
04:02	Chousuke	noprompt: avoiding nested callbacks
04:03	noprompt	Chousuke: yeah, i know what you're refering too.
04:03	Glenjamin	meh, i like node.js
04:04	Chousuke	if you coded node in haskell you could just write do { x <- someAsyncOp; y <- anotherAsyncOp; return x+y}
04:04	Glenjamin	the module loading system and dependency management encourages really small, clean re-usable modules
04:05	Glenjamin	again, i don't really see that as being leaps and bounds better than async.parallel([someAysncOp, anotherAsyncOp], callback)
04:05	noprompt	well, there is type safety. which is a good thing.
04:05	Chousuke	whereas in javascript that's like someasyncOp(function(x, err) {if (!err) anotherAsyncOp(x, function...{})})
04:05	Chousuke	which is a complete horror
04:05	Glenjamin	noprompt: like in clojure?
04:06	Chousuke	glenjamin: oh, I forgot to add a dependency of anotherAsyncOp to x
04:06	noprompt	javascript is just horrific in general. you have to be armed to the teeth with a body of knowledge before you can even consider writing serious code in the language.
04:07	Glenjamin	again, i don't really see that as being leaps and bounds better than async.waterfall([someAysncOp, anotherAsyncOp], callback)
04:07	Chousuke	Glenjamin: yeah, and that's a monad
04:07	Glenjamin	noprompt: i don't strongly disagree, but to do web work you have to know it pretty well
04:07	noprompt	it's probably the second or third worst language i've used (php being the first).
04:07	Glenjamin	Chousuke: right, but does knowing its a monad change anything?
04:07	Chousuke	Glenjamin: you're just using a non-generic implementation of the exact same thing
04:07	Glenjamin	yes, i agree
04:07	Chousuke	Glenjamin: and you don't get syntactic benefits
04:08	noprompt	Glenjamin: well yes if you write raw javascript.
04:08	Chousuke	do notation is better than what you wrote.
04:08	Glenjamin	but is it much better?
04:08	Chousuke	it is.
04:09	Chousuke	because it's based on something generic, and thus extends to things you can't even imagine yet.
04:09	Chousuke	like, say, the Tardis monad :P
04:09	Chousuke	(which is a combination of state and reverse state)
04:09	noprompt	Chousuke: you're making want to pick up haskell again. :)
04:10	noprompt	*making me
04:10	Chousuke	it's unfortunate that Monads are called monads
04:10	Glenjamin	they should reall be Monoids!
04:11	Chousuke	if they were called "generic API for boilerplate" people might not be so scared
04:11	Glenjamin	what's that phrase now...
04:11	Glenjamin	monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors
04:11	Chousuke	yeah, heh
04:11	mthvedt	i only program in the lambda calculus on categories
04:11	mthvedt	everything is a category
04:12	Glenjamin	i'm not especially scared of them, it's just i'm unconvinced of the improvement - you still have to understand what the properties of the monad you're using are in order to compose them
04:12	Chousuke	Glenjamin: there are a lot of big words in that sentence but what is actually says is really simple :P
04:12	Chousuke	Glenjamin: sure, but you're doing that anyway when you're working with any kind of data
04:13	Glenjamin	yep, but more concrete abstractions designed for the particular problem can make the tasks you're likely to do easier
04:13	Chousuke	I've never seen an example of that
04:13	noprompt	Glenjamin: you know it's funny you mention that.
04:13	Glenjamin	and you could build them out of monads, or something less general - but when i'm using the specialised version it stops mattering
04:14	Chousuke	Glenjamin: I mean, you can do things with specialised versions and it's easy
04:14	Chousuke	but using the non-special versions is easy too
04:14	Chousuke	it's just two operators :\|
04:14	Chousuke	and one of them is trivial
04:15	noprompt	personally, i think people tend to looking to apply general solutions or patterns when building software that they actually miss out on what they're actually trying to do.
04:15	Chousuke	it's like you'd rather have listSort() mapSort() vectorSort() all separate so that you know what you're sorting each time :P
04:16	Chousuke	noprompt: I don't think monads are like that
04:16	Glenjamin	thats why we have interfaces, or protocols / type classes
04:16	noprompt	Chousuke: i don't necissarily either.
04:16	Glenjamin	the monad stuff is at a level of abstraction I don't often need to deal with
04:17	Chousuke	Glenjamin: you're dealing with it all the time
04:17	Glenjamin	and yet I don't know I am!
04:17	Glenjamin	which is my entire point
04:17	Chousuke	Glenjamin: if you knew, you'd stop repeating yourself :)
04:17	noprompt	i guess what i notice is that people learn about a X design pattern or X abstraction technique and try to make use of it when they really could have just solved their problem with a few lines of code.
04:18	Glenjamin	That's a monad, I can use the monadic operators / That's some repetition, I can abstract that away
04:18	Glenjamin	^^ whats the difference?
04:19	ejackson	noprompt: i'm not seeing that in myself. As I learn higher level concepts, they dissolve the lower level ones. But its taking a long time.
04:19	noprompt	iow i can sympathize with what Glenjamin is saying.
04:19	Chousuke	monads are just a generic operator for the boilerplate in the following: A -> (operation) -> (boilerplate) -> B
04:19	noprompt	ejackson: i wasn't refering to a large body of people, but some do approach software in this manner.
04:20	ejackson	fancy composition operators :)
04:20	Glenjamin	so is A -> (high-level-operator) -> B
04:20	Chousuke	Glenjamin: that doesn't work if the operator doesn't actually return B
04:20	noprompt	i worked with a guy a while back who was just so obsessed with "patterns" that it drove me to quit working with him.
04:20	ejackson	noprompt: oh, sorry, I thought you were making a general argument against higher level abstractions
04:20	ejackson	noprompt: hehe, I know what you mean now :)
04:20	Chousuke	Glenjamin: it's just so obvious to me.
04:21	Chousuke	Glenjamin: if you have functions that can return null, you can just go foo(bar(something(A))) to get B
04:21	Chousuke	you have to do null checks after everything
04:21	Chousuke	which is just boilerplate that you can't avoid
04:21	Glenjamin	(cond-> A something bar foo)
04:22	Chousuke	that's just one case
04:22	noprompt	ejackson: i guess my point was that it's important to know when and where to apply abstraction.
04:22	Glenjamin	it's the case of hiding null
04:22	Chousuke	Glenjamin: if you have monads and syntactic support for it, you don't need any such special operators.
04:22	noprompt	of course, i still struggle with that too :)
04:23	Glenjamin	if you have macros and syntactic support for them, you don't need any such special monads?
04:23	Chousuke	macros don't compose
04:24	Glenjamin	mm, thats true
04:24	Chousuke	what if you had async operations that could return nulls?
04:24	Chousuke	if you implemented these things as monads, you could still use do syntax
04:25	Glenjamin	but what if i want to evaluate in parallel, or do something other than chain the calls?
04:25	Glenjamin	surely i still need more notation
04:25	Chousuke	Glenjamin: do notation doesn't specify evaluation order
04:26	Chousuke	other than what is implied by the dependencies of each expression
04:27	Glenjamin	but if two computations fail in parallel, what error value would i get back?
04:27	Chousuke	both? it depends on the implementation of your bind
04:27	Chousuke	that's the point
04:27	Chousuke	you get to decide what happens
04:27	Chousuke	but the syntax stays the same
04:28	Chousuke	there are of course limits to what monads can express
04:28	Chousuke	but sufficiently many things are monadic that having syntactic support for them is convenient
04:29	noprompt	the day a language which marry's haskell and lisp comes a long will be a glorious day.
04:29	Chousuke	I think there is one already
04:29	Glenjamin	you have convinced me there's an advantage when building composable operations
04:30	noprompt	Chousuke: there are actually a few i've seen, but they're either no longer maintained or incomplete.
04:30	Chousuke	Glenjamin: if you think about it, composing things is the majority of what a programmer does nowadays
04:30	ejackson	Chousuke: so, which is it ? :)
04:31	Chousuke	Liskell is one I've seen mentioned somewhere
04:31	Chousuke	I haven't actually looked at it
04:32	ejackson	do you use Clojure's monads at all ?
04:32	noprompt	the last i checked liskell wasn't being maintained.
04:32	noprompt	there's another one called shin.
04:33	Chousuke	ejackson: I have some code that uses them, and I implemented monads once myself using protocols :P
04:33	noprompt	sorry, shen.
04:33	Glenjamin	Chousuke: you've managed to pique my interest enough to try using some monads in my clojure :)
04:34	Chousuke	ejackson: They're not as ubiquitous in Clojure since having a static type system really helps with monads (gives you safety and all) but you can still get some pretty elegant code
04:34	Glenjamin	and now I'd better go to work!
04:35	ejackson	yeah, i hardly ever see them in the wild
04:39	Chousuke	ejackson: https://gist.github.com/Chousuke/141085 here's some toy code I wrote ages ago to test out clojure monads. I don't think it'd be trivial to write without monads.
04:40	Chousuke	or rather, you'd just end up duplicating State :P
04:41	Chousuke	it's a functional parser that supports incomplete input and can be resumed arbitrarily many times.
04:41	ejackson	that's pretty cool
04:41	ejackson	and short !
04:41	Chousuke	IIRC it has a bug though where the regexp sometimes fails if the input is split in a certain way
04:43	ejackson	haskell is like malaria: every few years I succumb to a relapse
04:44	noprompt	ejackson: couldn't have said it better myself!
04:44	ejackson	i so want to actually use it all the time, but haven't put enough block time aside to get it right
04:44	noprompt	i'm debating picking up either erlang or prolog over the summer.
04:44	Chousuke	My main problem with haskell is that it makes it more difficult for me to program in other languages
04:45	ejackson	Clojure has done that to me too
04:45	Chousuke	"gah why can't I just fmap this and be done"
04:45	noprompt	Chousuke: yes, and it dooms you to see bugs.
04:45	ejackson	"what do you mean I can't use vectors as keys in a map, PYTHON ?"
04:45	ejackson	what's haskells matrix story like ?
04:46	noprompt	ejackson: clojure reduced ruby to my shell scripting language.
04:47	noprompt	actually, functional programming in general has ruin my experience in any language that isn't functional. :'(
04:47	Chousuke	ejackson: I tried doing v = v.sort() in python and then wondered why it wasn't working (I didn't get NPEs because my template-engine silently converted nulls to nothing)
04:48	noprompt	doomed to obscurity at the local developer meetups. it's a sad life. :)
04:48	ejackson	yeah, exactly. Clojure teaches you to rely on certain things, and elsewhere they're just not there.
04:48	noprompt	Chousuke: i had a fun conversation about the relevance of using negative indexes the other day with a python programmer.
04:49	noprompt	apparently python doesn't even have a last function.
04:52	noprompt	ejackson: clojure is also a great lesson in thinking in terms of data and data transformation.
06:02	ayia	Hi guys, How can i "paste" name passed to macro like (defmacro def-name-var [name] ...) into name of the var in its definition, where name should be like -<name>-fields?
06:16	clgv	ayia: please provide an example macro call and the desired expansion
06:29	noidi	ayia, maybe you want `symbol`? it takes a string and returns a symbol, so you can do something like `(def ~(symbol (str name "-suffix")) ~value)
06:40	ayia	clgv: =>(def-name-var jack) ;; should create a var with name -jack-fields
06:40	clgv	ayia: ok
06:41	clgv	ayia: (defmacro def-name-var [var-name] `(def ~(symbol (format "-%s-fields" (name var-name)))))
06:43	ayia	clgv: noidi: thanks you guys, for this approaches... Just one more question, is there any other way to do this, maybe just with using quotes/unquotes? i.e. to make the code even more readable...
06:44	clgv	ayia: no. you can define a separate function though
06:46	ayia	clgv: what does this mean "define a separate function"?
06:49	jaffe_	ayia: you can define a function that adds the suffix to the symbol, and then have your macro call that function instead
06:51	clgv	ayia: (defn derive-symbol [fmt s] (symbol (format fmt (name s)))) and then (defmacro def-name-var [var-name] `(def ~(derive-symbol "-%s-fields" svar-name)))
07:00	ayia	clgv: jaffe_: got it! thanks!
07:56	beaky	hello
07:56	knob	Hello!
07:56	beaky	Rich Hickey often refers to "Polymorphism a la carte" in his speech; what does that mean?
07:56	beaky	is it like the single-dispatch polymorphism in C++?
08:00	sparkjoy	I'm not the expert, but my studies so far have revealed both single-dispatch polymorphism
08:00	joegallo	i think it's like, you can have a slice of cake, or a slice of pie, or also there's multimethods
08:00	sparkjoy	but also multi-methods
08:01	sparkjoy	protocols use single dispatch, with a privileged first arg (like this in OO)
08:01	hyPiRion	beaky: polymorphism as polymorphism itself. It's not bound to classes, only to functions.
08:02	sparkjoy	multimethods allow you to dispatch based on more than just the first arg
08:02	sparkjoy	also a very cool thing about protocols
08:03	sparkjoy	is that you can extend them not only to types that you define
08:03	sparkjoy	but also to types that others have defined for which you do not control the source
08:04	sparkjoy	I'm just learning about protocols now (highly recommend _Clojure Programming_) but they sure seem powerful
08:08	DerGuteMoritz	sparkjoy: note that protocols are just a subset of multimethods
08:08	beaky	clojure has multimethods too?
08:08	DerGuteMoritz	yes
08:08	sparkjoy	yep beaky
08:08	beaky	(even though it isn't OO at all) :D
08:09	DerGuteMoritz	protocol methods are just like multimethods which dispatch on the type of the first argument
08:09	Bronsa	mh, I don't think protocols are exactly a subset of multimethods
08:09	beaky	so OOP has no monopoly over polymorphism?
08:09	DerGuteMoritz	well, and with protocols you can also check whether they are implemented for a certain type, not sure if that's possible with multimethods
08:09	Bronsa	with protocols you can dispatch on the interface too, I don't think you can do that with multimethods
08:09	DerGuteMoritz	Bronsa: how do you mean?
08:10	DerGuteMoritz	surely you can use the same dispatch function that's used by protocols?
08:10	Bronsa	(extend-protocol proto clojure.lang.IPersistentMap (f [this] ..)))
08:10	DerGuteMoritz	except protocols will be more efficient
08:10	Bronsa	with a multimethod, you can't do that if you're dispatching on the first argument type
08:11	DerGuteMoritz	Bronsa: ah, perhaps
08:12	sparkjoy	beaky: there's plenty of polymorphism in Clojure - you just have finer grained control
08:14	sparkjoy	watch Rich's "Simple made easy" talk - I think you'll get a feel for his goals of "decomplecting" systems
08:14	beaky	yeah that was an awesome lecture
08:23	beaky	so OOP is the enemy of simplicity?
08:24	sparkjoy	I wouldn't go that far, but I'm knee deep in an enterprise OO system now, using all the best practices, DDD, etc.
08:24	sparkjoy	and I can tell you that we are not as agile as we could be
08:24	sparkjoy	in large part because of the silos (classes) we've constructed around our data
08:25	sparkjoy	we program with immutable objects in C#, and we use immutable, persistent data structures, but this is not idiomatic so we find ourselves fighting against the current a lot
08:26	sparkjoy	and our persistent data structures suck compared to what's provided by default in Clojure
08:54	cmajor7	what would be the way to render protobuf from compojure? overrite "Renderable" with "byte-array" type?
09:18	stuartsierra	By the way, Hudson releases are (mostly) working again.
09:18	stuartsierra	In case anyone was waiting to release a library or something.
09:18	stuartsierra	See my latest email to clojure-dev.
10:12	dsabanin	hey guys
10:13	dsabanin	hey guys
10:14	silasdavis	I'm getting a "don't know how to create ISeq error" which I've learnt usually means I've done somethign weird with '()'
10:14	silasdavis	could anyone explain how the handler on line 52 could cause this error
10:14	silasdavis	when the alternative handler/site works fine
10:16	dsabanin	I wonder what is the right place to put a type hint for return value in defn? before arguments vector or before the name?
10:16	ucb	silasdavis: paste code?
10:17	silasdavis	ucb, oh I did paste it, I just didn't give you the link, how helpful of me: https://www.refheap.com/paste/13932
10:20	ppppaul	what should i use instead of walk to easily transform a nested data structure?
10:22	stuartsierra	dsabanin: In the past, functions were type hinted with ^ClassName metadata before the function name.
10:23	dsabanin	ah, I see. That explains why both ways work :)
10:23	dsabanin	thanks!
10:23	stuartsierra	dsabanin: With the introduction of primitive function arguments & return values in Clojure 1.3, you could put return type hints on the argument vector.
10:24	stuartsierra	ppppaul: If you know something about the structure of the thing you're walking, you can create your own recursive function that will be much more efficient than clojure.walk, e.g. using `update-in`.
10:25	stuartsierra	clojure.walk is a general, but not very efficient, solution to walking any arbitrary data structure.
10:25	gfredericks	clojurebot: clojure.walk is a general, but not very efficient, solution to walking any arbitrary data structure.
10:25	clojurebot	In Ordnung
10:26	stuartsierra	clojure.walk also doesn't work on `defrecord` types
10:26	stuartsierra	if I recall
10:27	tcrayford	also you could try using a zipper. They are super good for walking nested structures and manipulating bits of them as you go
10:27	ppppaul	stuartsierra, i have found that when i attempt to do transformations with update-in it can get very hairy
10:27	ppppaul	maybe i'm doing them wrong
10:27	stuartsierra	Oh, it can get hairy. :)
10:27	ppppaul	i find my walks to be very simple
10:27	ppppaul	though, when i need a complicated walk it usually fails
10:28	ppppaul	so i stack a few simple ones together
10:28	ppppaul	currently i'm mostly using walks for testing
10:28	stuartsierra	ppppaul: If it works and is fast enough for the use case, then there's no reason not to use clojure.walk.
10:29	ppppaul	i think that i can probably get away with memorizing if i need performance
10:29	ppppaul	thanks stuartsierra, last night there was some talk about walk, and it made me feel like i may be going in the wrong direction with my style of clojure programming
10:30	stuartsierra	`walk` is certainly convenient - that's why I wrote it. :)
10:32	ppppaul	i have found it very useful. i even ported it to javascript.
10:36	ppppaul	actually, since i'm on this topic... stuartsierra there have been occasions where i want to rip out some things from a tree and put them in a flattened array. like maybe all integers or something. i tried to do this a few times with walk but found it extremely hard. do you have any strategy for doing something like that (other than using an atom)?
10:36	stuartsierra	Yeah `walk` isn't really designed for that.
10:37	stuartsierra	I do it with recursive functions and `mapcat` but it's not always easy.
10:37	ppppaul	just wondering if there was some clever way to deal with that with walk... like returning arrays and then doing a flatten or something
10:38	VFe	Anyone been using Riak via Clojure and have any recommendations for client libs?(i.e. any reason or problems I might encounter using Welle over Sumo or clj-riak, etc)
10:38	tcrayford	what kinda items are you querying for? You might be able to use tree-seq
10:38	antares_	VFe: clj-riak and sumo are not really maintained, AFAIK
10:38	tcrayford	VFe: I have been. I think welle's the only one of those that is regularly updated
10:38	ppppaul	hmm... something like #(= (type %) "whatever")
10:38	tcrayford	(sadly, I don't think welle is very well designed at all)
10:39	VFe	yeah, welle has been giving me some issues, and I was curious if people used one of the others more regularly
10:39	antares_	tcrayford: how many ways are there to design a K/V store API? :)
10:39	antares_	VFe: care to elaborate? I'm the author
10:39	VFe	Oh, well hello :)
10:40	ppppaul	antares_, redis...
10:40	tcrayford	antares_: when that store is eventually consistent, there are quite a few things welle does that I'm sad about (I'm a contributer, and using it)
10:40	antares_	ppppaul: I'm talking about client libraries
10:41	ppppaul	hmmm... there are probably a lot of ways to do so
10:41	antares_	tcrayford: well, I've seen only one issue from you, what else is missing?
10:41	antares_	ppppaul: really? for a key/value store?
10:41	ppppaul	but the top level API shouldn't be so big
10:42	VFe	Well, first question, when I run it from repl, am I supposed to see like 3 pages of reflection warnings?
10:42	antares_	VFe: welle itself has next to no reflection warnings
10:43	antares_	some of its dependencies have them
10:43	tcrayford	antares_: the api doesn't force people to use resolvers/retriers, and the docs sorta handwave over receiving conflicts.
10:43	antares_	tcrayford: and that's it?
10:43	VFe	yeah, I see nrepl, complete/core, etc, so that's expected behavior then?
10:44	antares_	tcrayford: retriers are now used by default. Forcing people to use resolvers sounds a bit too much.
10:44	antares_	tcrayford: man, at least we have some documentation. Most projects don't even explain what the hell R, W, DW and so on are.
10:44	tcrayford	antares_: right. I'm glad about that ;)
10:45	antares_	VFe: the only way to solve it is to run after every dependency (and dependency dependency, and so on) and fix reflection warnings there
10:45	antares_	people did fix some in Cheshire and clj-http
10:46	antares_	sometimes they can't really be avoided, because in Clojure you only can overload on function arity, not types
10:46	tcrayford	antares_: the fact that I've been wrapping welle in my own library so that the interface is nicer kinda makes me want to just go away and write my own clojure client lib on top of the basho java client.
10:47	antares_	tcrayford: well, it's your call :)
10:47	tcrayford	antares_: I'm not sure, but I think modify might do the wrong thing with vclocks right now as well. Also, I have a rant about the riak-client and binding style of injecting the client, but that seems standard in clojure, sadly.
10:48	antares_	tcrayford: there is one thing that will change in 1.6 with vclock
10:48	antares_	apparently the value we need to propagate is the one from the response
10:48	antares_	and it's currently not preserved. So kv/fetch return value will have to change :(
10:49	tcrayford	antares: is that with modify? That was my issue ;)
10:49	antares_	to {:vclock … :object …}
10:50	antares_	tcrayford: it affects modify but is also a problem of its own
10:50	antares_	unfortunately, the Java client itself has next to no docs
10:51	antares_	at least did not have them 2 years ago when Welle was started
10:51	tcrayford	antares_: that'd cause sibling explosion, right? (assuming you have allow_mult on, which should nearly always be the case)
10:51	antares_	so it wasn't obvious which vclock value we have to use
10:51	tcrayford	antares_: yeah. It's been rewritten completely since then from my perspective ;)
10:51	antares_	yes, that's what aphyr has observed
10:51	antares_	with his network splits simulation tool
10:52	antares_	tcrayford: I didn't see major changes, they just added and documented some stuff
10:52	tcrayford	heh. It's a good thing the app I've written on top of welle isn't in production yet then ;)
10:52	antares_	with this change, I don't think there will be anything missing in Welle w.r.t. to the Java client
10:52	antares_	except that you don't have domain objects, of course
10:52	tcrayford	well, that's part of clojure
10:52	tcrayford	;)
10:53	tcrayford	the shit you store in riak should just be data, not domain objects ;)
10:53	ieure	Sup tcrayford.
10:53	tcrayford	ieure: sup
10:54	antares_	tcrayford: what I often used Riak for, I often used LWW :) but I hear ya. I think 1.6 will be out in the next few days. We got a lot of tests to update, but the code change is minor.
10:55	tcrayford	antares_: neat. Thanks. I don't wanna sound pissed off, welle is reasonably good as far as the riak clients I've used go.
10:55	antares_	tcrayford: but I totally welcome more clients
10:55	antares_	tcrayford: there is #clojurewerkz now if you want to suggest something or complain about welle more ;)
10:56	tcrayford	antares_: it'll be a while if I do my own, I have an app to ship first
10:56	antares_	VFe: not sure if this answers your question, but with 1.6, Welle will likely be good enough even for demanding users. And it is maintained, including the docs.
10:57	VFe	My main issue was the reflection things, pages of warnings tend to make me think I'm doing something wrong XD
10:57	antares_	tcrayford: understandable. If you want to see more changes in Welle, please file an issue.
10:57	VFe	But the discussion was enlightening, I mainly asked cause I have to decide what we're going to be using in production
10:58	antares_	VFe: can you gist them?
10:58	VFe	sure
10:59	tcrayford	antares_: honestly most of the changes I'd want to see would be api changes (e.g. I don't think most of the options to fetch/store/etc should be options, they should be bundled up in a "bucket", along with a resolver/retrier. Those are more personal opinion things though. I have an internal namespace that does all of that for me right now).
11:00	VFe	https://gist.github.com/VFe/5452786
11:01	antares_	tcrayford: Riak Java client kinda has two clients: "raw" and POJO-oriented. We can consider adding a "higher level" one in Welle.
11:01	tcrayford	antares_: yeah. We should take this discussion to #clojurewerkz, not keep it in here
11:01	antares_	VFe: so, most of them are from complete/core. Is that an OSS library?
11:02	antares_	VFe: clojure.tools.nrepl I can't fix, I live in a country that has no reliable mail to US, so I won't be filing Clojure CA until it is electronic :(
11:05	VFe	I actually don't know what complete.core is, though in regards to the second part, couldn't you sign the document, email it to someone you trust in the US, have them print it and send for CA?
11:05	VFe	i.e. have someone act as your legal proxy
11:06	antares_	VFe: it's not a Welle dependency, it's loaded by something else
11:06	noidi	VFe, if that was acceptable then Rich Hickey could just receive the e-mail directly and print it out himself if he ever needs a copy
11:07	antares_	VFe: possibly. I don't generally bother with core.* stuff, even trivial patches are accepted 3-12 months after you submit them.
11:07	antares_	that's not how OSS should work and I'm tired of trying to change the system. There are better ways to spend time.
11:08	antares_	nrepl developers are a bit better in this regard
11:08	beaky	hello
11:09	antares_	VFe: if you run lein deps :tree, it should show you what dependencies you have. Could you please gist that?
11:09	beaky	how do I run clojure programs on my platform? I am using archlinux on x86/64
11:09	nDuff	antares_: Can you send faxes? Those are legally recognizable in the US in many cases (Relevance would have to talk to their lawyer, which I'm not, to determine if that's the case here).
11:09	VFe	lol, I like how I I just googled for complete/core/clj and now that gist is on first page of results
11:10	VFe	I suddenly feel so alone
11:10	VFe	and yeah, lemme do that
11:10	noidi	beaky, do you want to get started with Clojure development, or run a program written by someone else in Clojure?
11:10	beaky	get started :D
11:11	antares_	beaky: there are tutorials at http://clojure-doc.org, take a look
11:11	beaky	ah thanks
11:11	beaky	hmm clojure uses square brackets and braces too... thats new :D
11:12	antares_	nDuff: the policy is, you mail a piece of paper or sign it at one of the Relevance events. And then there are "screeners" and Clojure/core and months and months of waiting. I won't bother with that.
11:12	nDuff	antares_: Yes, I know -- I've done the "sign it at a conj" thing.
11:12	VFe	https://gist.github.com/VFe/5452872
11:12	nDuff	antares_: ...but I'm saying that it should be possible to make a case for accepting faxes.
11:12	beaky	btw why does it use first/rest instead of car/cdr?
11:12	technomancy	heh; faxes
11:13	antares_	nDuff: the process is made intentionally hard. I'm not going to cooperate.
11:13	nDuff	technomancy: They're used for sensitive medical documents all the bloody time.
11:13	antares_	beaky: because nobody knows what car/cdr mean
11:13	technomancy	http://achewood.com/index.php?date=11222006
11:13	nDuff	antares_: Ahh. If it's protest, that's a completely different matter.
11:13	antares_	beaky: besides CL and Scheme users, which are a tiny % of people who get into Clojure (33% Java, 33% Ruby/Python)
11:13	beaky	yeah I guess it's car/cdr are way too oldschool/archaic and first/rest are more communicative
11:14	VFe	Technically, in the US, signature is an intent, which is why anything can be a signature, including digital. or why you can proxy your legal rights at will.
11:14	antares_	nDuff: not really a protest, I just don't think it's worth it
11:14	VFe	So if they don't accept an email or fax, its a matter of personal policy, not of legality
11:14	noidi	besides, clojure's sequences are not linked lists made out of cons cells
11:14	ieure	beaky, Clojure takes some inspiration from Scheme, which uses first/rest rather than car/cdr.
11:14	noidi	so car/cdr could lead old lisp programmers astray in thinking that
11:14	tcrayford	antares_: I haven't signed one as well, for similar reasons. I've been to relevance events and not signed purposefully.
11:14	beaky	so the default clojure sequence is something from java?
11:15	tcrayford	no
11:15	ieure	Well.
11:15	ieure	Much of Clojure is implemented in Java, or at least has Java interfaces.
11:15	noidi	beaky, http://clojure.org/sequences
11:15	beaky	I am only familiar with C++ :D
11:15	ieure	So clojure.lang.ISeq is the underlying type.
11:15	beaky	ah thanks
11:16	antares_	beaky: please read a guide on sequences at http://clojure-doc.org, they are not implemented as cons cells and yes, they are implemented in Java. But most importantly they are immutable.
11:17	antares_	beaky: a slightly more approachable version http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/collections_and_sequences.html
11:17	beaky	ah, so clojure sequences are much like haskell's []
11:18	beaky	but more general
11:18	tcrayford	well, haskell
11:18	lucian	beaky: or less general, depending how you look at it
11:18	tcrayford	's [] is implemented as cons cells iirc
11:18	lucian	beaky: certainly more explicit
11:18	beaky	ah
11:18	beaky	that's awesome
11:19	beaky	I like the idea of having a uniform interface for sequences
11:19	maio	I would like to serve result of write function from https://github.com/jkk/purty/blob/master/src/jkkramer/purty.clj as HTTP response. Any idea how to do that? It expects something that works with clojure.java.io/file
11:19	beaky	e.g. in C++, the containers are unified under iterators
11:19	beaky	(but C++ containers are mutable by default) :(
11:19	tcrayford	beaky: haskell has uniform interfaces for sequences (see Traversable/etc). They're just not commonly used
11:21	beaky	hmm why not? :(
11:21	beaky	maybe the haskell crowd prefers pointfree or something else I guess
11:22	tcrayford	for one thing they're kinda complicated interfaces, and they're not exported by the Prelude. First/Rest is a much better design (imo)
11:22	beaky	ah
11:23	beaky	seq is simple yet powerful :D
11:29	tomoj	Traversable > Seq
11:29	beaky	is there a nice repl with autocomplete for clojure?
11:30	vijaykiran	beaky: nrepl has autocomplete
11:30	cmajor7	answering my own question (serving protobuf from Compojure). no need to extend "Renderable", just wrap it into ByteArrayInputStream.
11:31	nDuff	beaky: I'm very happy with emacs' nrepl.el
11:31	cmajor7	beaky: "lein repl"
11:31	beaky	ah
11:32	beaky	lein repl works :D
11:32	beaky	I think ill try nrepl
11:32	beaky	im a vim user... how long will it take me to ge tused to emacs? :D
11:34	technomancy	don't learn emacs and clojure at the same time
11:34	antares_	beaky: why not use Vim Fireplace?
11:35	antares_	beaky: http://clojure-doc.org/articles/tutorials/vim_fireplace.html
11:35	TimMc	Is clojure-jack-in still a thing?
11:35	beaky	ah thans
11:35	TimMc	I installed clojure-mode from Marmalade, but that command is missing.
11:36	tcrayford	beaky: vim is fine with clojure. Not as fluid as emacs, but fine. Fireplace has some weird redrawing bugs on my system, but nothing super bad
11:37	beaky	:D
11:37	blrm	beaky: vim fireplace is nice. I did wind up switching to emacs just for clojure, and it wasn't so bad. But yeah, learning clojure and a new editor at the same time is not going to be fun
11:37	rbxbx	tcrayford: beaky fwiw I've found vim/fireplace better in some regards than nrepl.el (if you'll pardon the heresy)
11:37	beaky	I always thought of emacs as the ultimate lisp ide
11:37	kliph	I seem to remember stumbling upon a MIT Scratch/Berkeley BYOB visual block-based programming implementation in Clojure, but now I can't find it. Am I off my rocker or can anyone point me in the right direction?
11:39	tcrayford	rbxbx: it also has the bit in the readme about tim TPing your house
11:40	blrm	beaky: you might check out emacs live if you decide you want to learn emacs. that helped me to get started with emacs+clojure: https://github.com/overtone/emacs-live
12:06	beaky	if clojure is not object-oriented at all, how does it do interop with java?
12:06	beaky	(which is pretty religious about OOP) :D
12:07	danlarkin	clojure lets you invoke methods on objects
12:07	beaky	ah
12:07	danlarkin	and do other stuff too, like implement interfaces and inherit from classes, but that's generally not necessary
12:08	mikerod	I'm looking at the source for `reify` and I see that it is a macro. It uses a function `reify`. Where is `reify` defined at? I can't seem to find it.
12:09	mikerod	In the clojure source that is.
12:09	llasram	mikerod: It's a special form, directly recognized by the compiler
12:09	nDuff	mikerod: clojure/lang/Compiler.java
12:10	mikerod	Ah, ok. I didn't realize this. Thank you.
12:11	joegallo	lo, in the beginning there were the special forms, and the special forms were with clojure, and the specials forms were clojure.
12:12	mikerod	:)
12:12	antares_	mikerod: special forms are listed on http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/macros.html#special_forms :)
12:15	mikerod	antares_: Oh, I have not came across this one before. That's a great reference, thanks.
12:29	jcromartie	so here's a weird question
12:29	jcromartie	what's should I name a ref that holds the state of the data model
12:29	jcromartie	in a local scope
12:30	jcromartie	"ref" is already core/ref
12:30	jcromartie	"model" sounds more like a value
12:30	jcromartie	same with "state"
12:31	antares_	jcromartie: state is fine (and pretty common). You can also use ref'.
12:31	jcromartie	but then I use "state" to name the current value in the function arguments to alter, send, etc.
12:33	jcromartie	and Clojure calls the current value of an identity/ref "state"
12:33	bbloom	jcromartie: i've run into that naming conundrum before... where you have like the-state and a-state
12:33	beaky	how does clojure achieve encapsulation without OOP?
12:33	Ember-	via several means but also encapsulation isn't as important as with OOP
12:33	jcromartie	beaky: closures, records, datatypes
12:34	jcromartie	beaky: you shouldn't worry about hiding things, but you should try to abstract things
12:34	Ember-	if you have no mutable state then a large part of why encapsulation is so crucial with OOP goes out of the window
12:34	beaky	ah
12:35	bbloom	jcromartie: i've more or less just decided it's ok to shadow the ref's name
12:37	bbloom	jcromartie: (defmacro swapping! [name & body] `(swap! ~name (fn [~name] ~@body)))
12:37	bbloom	i've never actually used that, but it conveys a pattern :-P
12:37	jcromartie	nice
12:37	beaky	so in clojure, all the OOP fluff is simply unnecessary? :D
12:37	bbloom	beaky: no one said that
12:37	beaky	ah
12:38	bbloom	beaky: OOP is a deeply understood and well studied bag of tools
12:38	bbloom	beaky: clojure just embodies the opinion that OOP is the wrong default
12:41	ToBeReplaced	anyone have any tools for edn-based rpc they like?
12:41	beaky	it's not the default because it ties together a bunch of stuff in an unnatural way?
12:41	technomancy	ToBeReplaced: sure: https://github.com/technomancy/die-roboter
12:41	bbloom	beaky: great talk by stuartsierra on thinking in data instead of objects: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Thinking-in-Data
12:41	beaky	ah thanks
12:43	jcromartie	but at some point you might need something object-like (i.e. an identity that changes)
12:43	jcromartie	for instance a cache of values that is updated in the background
12:43	bbloom	jcromartie: objects are useful even without identities sometimes
12:45	bbloom	jcromartie: like take a look at clojure/zip.clj, which rich wrote in the early days of clojure
12:45	jcromartie	bbloom: what would that be? isn't it just data at that point?
12:45	jcromartie	ah
12:45	bbloom	jcromartie: it stores functions in the metadata of a vector....
12:45	bbloom	jcromartie: it would probably have been much better as a protocol & a reify
12:46	bbloom	(but i don't think those existed at the time)
12:46	jcromartie	nope
12:46	bbloom	objects are great when you have "co-data"... aka data that isn't printable/readable/immutable/acyclic/etc
12:46	bbloom	see also seqs
12:47	bbloom	they use objects to represent infinite data, not identities
12:49	ToBeReplaced	technomancy: cool, but not what i'm looking for; i'm looking for libraries to handle the equivalent of the json-rpc spec with edn
12:49	technomancy	ToBeReplaced: hm. never used json-rpc, but if there are no libraries for it, it could be because it's just a trivial compojure handler
12:51	ToBeReplaced	yeah it's pretty straight forward / easy to roll -- you want the same kind of thing for client too
12:51	beaky	(alter-var-root #'read-eval (constantly false)) ;; What does this line do? It was generated by lein and it says it somehow prevents some kind of dangerous behavior
12:56	no7hing	it prevents the clojure reader from evaluating forms that were e.g. loaded via slurp
12:57	antares_	beaky: disables evaluation of arbitrary code by the reader (clojure.core/read-string, etc)
12:57	antares_	beaky: if you use Clojure 1.5.1, it is the default so that line can be removed
13:02	andyfingerhut	beaky: antares_: read-eval still defaults to true in Clojure 1.5.1
13:03	antares_	andyfingerhut: oh
13:03	beaky	ah
13:03	andyfingerhut	Clojure 1.5.1 added the clojure.edn/read and read-string functions, that behave much like clojure.core/read and read-string, except have no ability to execute code as a side effect.
13:04	andyfingerhut	tools.reader contrib library also provides similar capability for edn reading with no side effects, and works with Clojure 1.3 and later.
13:04	andyfingerhut	clojure.core/read has its uses as it is still, but primarily when you want to pass around executable Clojure code as text.
13:16	technomancy	beaky: it was meant to be a workaround for the problem that read and read-string were unsafe on user-provided data, but they changed the tune and said that they now aren't intended for user data anyway
13:17	technomancy	which IMO is unhelpful because they are still going to be used for it anyway, but that ship has sailed
13:22	sritchie	cemerick, any advice on how to get clj-http to provide a proper csrf header in a post request?
13:30	mynomoto	How do I require a project namespace in a lein plugin?
13:31	technomancy	mynomoto: eval-in-project
13:31	technomancy	that is, leiningen.core.eval/eval-in-project
13:31	mynomoto	technomancy: I tried that, but not sure how to use it. Do you have an example?
13:33	technomancy	mynomoto: sure; see the source for the "check" task in leniingen
13:33	mynomoto	Ok, thanks.
13:34	technomancy	basically it's like eval except it takes a project argument first
13:34	technomancy	project map
13:37	cemerick	sritchie: you mean something like X-Requested-With?
13:37	sritchie	cemerick: figured it out -- I just needed to use the :cookie-store option
13:37	cemerick	ah
13:38	cemerick	sritchie: yeah, X-Request-With isn't right, anyway.
13:39	silasdavis	how should I convert ':foo' to 'foo'?
13:39	llasram	Do you want ##(name :foo) ?
13:39	lazybot	⇒ "foo"
13:40	silasdavis	thanks
13:43	Glenjamin	when the 'check' task warns about reflection, what is it actually warning about?
13:45	technomancy	...is this a trick question?
13:55	beaky	does a dynamically-typed programming language need polymorphism?
13:56	technomancy	beaky: you need polymorphism for clojure's built-in types. genuine need for polymorphism for user-defined types is fairly rare.
13:57	technomancy	it's completely orthogonal to the static/dynamic divide though
13:57	beaky	ah
13:58	patchwork	Trying to wean myself off swank for nrepl
13:59	patchwork	Can you embed nrepl inside a running process?
13:59	beaky	what are clojure's builtins? I guess it has strings, symbols, singly-linked lists, vectors, hashmaps, and sets?
13:59	technomancy	patchwork: yeah, it's in the nrepl readme
14:00	patchwork	technomancy: I read through it, I just see it being able to start from the command line or from within emacs, but nothing about starting it from inside my app then connecting to it
14:01	technomancy	patchwork: are you sure you have the right readme?
14:01	patchwork	That is the main draw for swank, I can start it up inside my app then control my running app process from emacs
14:01	patchwork	https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el ?
14:01	technomancy	https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl
14:01	technomancy	you're reading the client's readme, not the server
14:01	patchwork	technomancy: Aha, thanks!
14:01	technomancy	sure
14:03	jcromartie	I really need to get out of this one-big-ref thing
14:03	jcromartie	I have one ref for the configuration of the app
14:03	patchwork	jcromartie: I just went through that
14:04	jcromartie	but then the runtime data should have its own references
14:04	jcromartie	atoms, agents, whatever
14:04	jcromartie	I have an API that is used by a JS front-end for making changes to the config.
14:04	patchwork	I think it is better to have a dynamic var actually, then you can rebind it at will, but not affect other processes
14:04	patchwork	you bind it when the app boots
14:04	jcromartie	I think I might just do that
14:04	jcromartie	because I don't realyl need to create instances of the system
14:05	jcromartie	I went down this route thinking it was cool
14:05	patchwork	I ran into trouble with the ref because all threads saw the same thing!
14:05	patchwork	It is helpful if that is what you want
14:05	beaky	can you program in an imperative style in clojure? (like in scala)
14:05	patchwork	but for config I needed to change some options
14:05	jcromartie	beaky: sure why not?
14:05	patchwork	beaky: If you insist!
14:05	patchwork	(do (op! …) (op! …) ...)
14:06	beaky	ah :D
14:06	jcromartie	patchwork: someone gave me the idea of having a function that creates a "system" ref that can be held in the REPL or whatever and then pass that to functions that create compojure handlers etc
14:06	jcromartie	but it would just be simpler to have a var
14:06	patchwork	jcromartie: I found the var to be more flexible for config specifically
14:07	jcromartie	and you can add watches to save it etc
14:07	patchwork	but I'm sure others have other opinions!
14:07	jcromartie	I dunno
14:07	jcromartie	I'd just have a ref in a var
14:07	jcromartie	I have a good system in place for persistence
14:07	patchwork	Do you know about the #'var-name idiom?
14:07	jcromartie	yes
14:08	patchwork	it returns a reference to the var, not the value
14:08	patchwork	very useful
14:08	jcromartie	it just returns the var itself
14:09	patchwork	Yeah. I avoid dynamic vars everywhere (it couples code too heavily and fns can't be reused elsewhere), but config needs user specified values somehow
14:12	Glenjamin	is there a quick way to grab the first non-empty string in a sequence?
14:12	tcrayford	(first (filter empty? seq))
14:12	tcrayford	oh
14:12	tcrayford	non empty
14:12	patchwork	Glenjamin: (first (filter identity seq))
14:13	patchwork	Or more clearly (first (remove empty? seq))
14:13	tcrayford	,(first (filter (complement empty?) ["a" ""])
14:13	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
14:13	patchwork	remove/filter are lazy so it will only calculate up to the first non-empty string
14:13	tcrayford	,(first (filter (complement empty?) ["a" ""]))
14:13	clojurebot	"a"
14:14	kaw	patchwork: Isn't "" trueish?
14:14	Glenjamin	presumably that identity one doesn't work, or i could just use (or)
14:14	tcrayford	yeah, identity doesn't work
14:14	tcrayford	filter is fine because of laziness though
14:14	patchwork	Ah, yeah I was thinking nil, not ""
14:15	tieTYT2	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16199258/how-can-i-pass-in-the-list-of-methods-to-gen-class
14:15	Glenjamin	it's a shame clojure doesn't have a haskell style function composition operator
14:15	tcrayford	comp is ok
14:15	tcrayford	clojure doesn't have operators!
14:16	Glenjamin	hah, true
14:16	Glenjamin	reader macro then :p
14:16	tcrayford	like arc?
14:16	tcrayford	(a:b thing)
14:16	Glenjamin	that could work
14:18	bbloom	blargh. just what i need. yet another thing that breaks * and # in vim
14:18	Glenjamin	,((comp first remove) empty? ["" "a"])
14:18	clojurebot	"a"
14:18	Glenjamin	vs
14:18	Glenjamin	,(first (remove empty? ["" "a"]))
14:18	clojurebot	"a"
14:19	Glenjamin	or i guess (-> ["" "a"] (remove empty?) first)
14:19	Glenjamin	,(-> ["" "a"] (remove empty?) first)
14:19	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$empty_QMARK_>
14:19	Glenjamin	bah, ->>
14:19	Glenjamin	anyway, it all seems to be roughly the same size-wise
14:26	gfredericks	woah that money library has functions called `plus` and `minus` o_O
14:27	antares_	gfredericks: yes, what about it?
14:28	antares_	we used the same names as Joda Money. Also, asking people to :refer-clojure :except [+ -] is a bit too much
14:29	gfredericks	antares_: I'd rather do :as m with m/+ and m/-
14:30	antares_	gfredericks: then our + would be non-variadic
14:30	Raynes	antares_: Please, please expect that people are going to :require :as your libraries.
14:30	antares_	at least if we change the signature
14:30	antares_	Raynes: I am not recommending :use or :refer :all
14:31	Raynes	I'd so much rather have then called + and - and have to qualify them.
14:31	Raynes	them*
14:31	tcrayford	(money/+ a b) reads worse than (money/plus a b) to me
14:32	antares_	I followed joda money names, it doesn't matter to me if it is + or plus
14:32	Raynes	I mean, it isn't a huge deal, but clj-time is super inconsistent because it's horrified of shadowing clojure.core names.
14:32	antares_	plus does not behave like clojure.core/+ if you take a close look
14:32	antares_	it is not variadic, it can accept Java objects or doubles
14:32	llasram	I'd like it to be `+` please (Unicode "PLUS SIGN" character)
14:33	Raynes	Shadowing doesn't imply behaving the same.
14:33	antares_	Raynes: may also be because it is really old and has dozens of functions in a single namespace
14:33	trinary	use the emoji fat plus
14:33	gfredericks	tcrayford: because of the '/' and the '+' next to each other?
14:33	antares_	trinary: ha
14:33	Raynes	plus and minus are perfectly acceptable in any case.
14:33	tcrayford	gfredricks: yep
14:33	tcrayford	also
14:33	tcrayford	does money// even work?
14:33	tcrayford	for division?
14:34	antares_	good point, amounts// would at least look terrible
14:34	antares_	tcrayford: it should
14:34	Raynes	&(clojure.core// 10 2)
14:34	lazybot	⇒ 5
14:34	tcrayford	there's something new about clojure's syntax
14:34	tcrayford	(to me)
14:34	gfredericks	is that // bug fixed?
14:34	antares_	lets call division // to confuse people!
14:35	antares_	I still roll my eyes when I have to use =:= and =/= in Erlang
14:36	Raynes	I roll my eyes when I have to use ports in Erlang.
14:37	gfredericks	in any case, I think most would agree that the idiomatic clojure practice is to give things the most straightforward name and use namespaces to distinguish
14:38	gfredericks	then the user can decide if they want naked symbols to refer to the core version or the library version or whatever
14:38	Raynes	We should put it in that monstrous style guide!
14:38	antares_	gfredericks: I thought the most idiomatic is to be all anal about consistency?
14:39	gfredericks	antares_: I'm not sure what you mean by that
14:39	Raynes	Yeah, that's a horrible thing to be.
14:39	antares_	when a minor difference in behavior with clojure.core/+ means you have to pick a different name :)
14:39	gfredericks	oh I see
14:39	Raynes	After you've used clj-time for more than five seconds and ended up in secs seconds second minutes mins minute hell...
14:40	gfredericks	no, I agree with raynes that using the same name doesn't imply any particular similarity; also is there some reason it can't be variadic?
14:40	Raynes	FWIW, I'm totally fine with plus and minus.
14:40	Raynes	I was just making a case for not avoiding shadowing in other scenarios.
14:41	antares_	Raynes: I think clj-time is a case where the domain is very nuanced, less so with money. There are "hours" and "hours of day", for example, the former is a period of time
14:41	Raynes	antares_: Not what I mean though.
14:41	Raynes	antares_: IIRC, there is at least one case where it names something 'sec' instead of 'second' because of clojure.core/second, while the minute analogue is called 'minute'.
14:41	Raynes	That is horrifying.
14:42	Raynes	And I've nearly broken things over it in the past. :P
14:42	antares_	Raynes: maybe I focused to much on seconds vs second vs secs :)
14:42	callen	why isn't it days/hours/minutes/seconds
14:42	gtrak	&min
14:42	lazybot	⇒ #<core$min clojure.core$min@11cdd43>
14:42	antares_	Raynes: please file an issue, I think seancorfield would consider changing that to "second"
14:43	Raynes	I doubt it. It'd be a breaking change.
14:43	antares_	I doubt clojure.core/second gets much use
14:43	gfredericks	I use it all the time
14:43	gfredericks	but the shadowing wouldn't bother me, obviously
14:43	antares_	callen: there are functions that return a period of N seconds and # of seconds on a date/time
14:43	antares_	Raynes: it's OK to have a breaking change once in a few years
14:43	antares_	I'm going to break a few key functions in Welle tomorrow :)
14:44	Raynes	antares_: So, you do some Erlang?
14:44	antares_	because it's the right thing to do
14:44	antares_	gfredericks: fortunately, it's not Ruby, people will get a warning
14:44	gtrak	make a new lib called clj-time+ or clj-time-plus
14:44	gfredericks	antares_: oh sure
14:44	antares_	Raynes: yes, mostly on and around RabbitMQ. Also have an Elixir library :)
14:44	VFe	the real question I have, is how do I actually use emoji in clojure?! (defn 🍉 [🐉 🐪 💀］(+ (* 🐪 🐉) 💀))
14:44	antares_	gtrak: noooooo
14:44	Raynes	antares_: https://www.refheap.com/paste/13920 I'll pay you $10 to send Erlang a patch for this.
14:45	Raynes	Of course I'm pretty sure that involves C.
14:45	antares_	VFe: like so twitter.com/michaelklishin/status/270072723751960576? ;)
14:45	antares_	Raynes: I don't hack on OTP, I use Erlang
14:45	Raynes	antares_: But you should.
14:46	gfredericks	using words for numeric operations bothered the hell out of me every time I wanted to do alternative arithmetic in java or JS; clojure allows that to be much nicer in my opinion
14:46	gfredericks	but I don't mind being a minority on that. I can always creating locals for + - * / etc :)
14:46	antares_	Raynes: right after clojurewerkz passes 100 projects, I promise
14:46	gfredericks	(defmacro with-money-math ...)
14:46	technomancy	gfredericks: CL's use of -p for predicates drives me nuts for the same reason
14:46	VFe	antares_: this changes everything
14:47	gfredericks	technomancy: it's a required thing?
14:47	technomancy	gfredericks: no, a cultural thing
14:47	Raynes	antares_: I'll hold you to it.
14:47	technomancy	gfredericks: well, it might be required in CL; not sure if the standard allows for ?
14:47	tcrayford	I really wish haskell allowed ? as part of a variable name :/
14:47	Raynes	'variable'
14:48	technomancy	I bet all widely-used implementations do, and elisp certainly does
14:48	Raynes	EVIL ONE
14:48	antares_	Raynes: I know you are serious business
14:48	gfredericks	technomancy: oh right question marks
14:48	tcrayford	Raynes: im troll
14:48	Apage43	it's pretty hairy though
14:48	Raynes	Apage43: You can have my $10 as well.
14:48	Raynes	It's bounty.
14:48	Raynes	I'll even tack on $1 for pain and suffering for having to use C. ;)
14:49	technomancy	hazard pay
14:49	antares_	do C programmers get to retire earlier, too?
14:49	mynomoto	I'm still trying to use eval-in-project for a lein plugin. I got this code https://www.refheap.com/paste/13938
14:50	SegFaultAX	Apage43: Y u no nif?
14:50	Apage43	SegFaultAX: I've done NIFs too
14:50	mynomoto	And this error: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: squiggle.core, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1:37)
14:50	Apage43	I've built the VM for Android and iOS before and that required getting into the guts though
14:50	technomancy	mynomoto: it's best to use fully-qualified var names for referring to things not in core
14:50	SegFaultAX	Apage43: Then I /really/ feel your pain.
14:50	technomancy	at least for starters
14:50	Apage43	also had to debug the VM on numerous occasions
14:51	SegFaultAX	Apage43: Eheh, Erlang on Android. Wut?
14:51	Apage43	and iphone
14:51	Apage43	it was for a product that packaged CouchDB
14:51	SegFaultAX	Apage43: But.. why?
14:51	SegFaultAX	Ah.
14:51	mynomoto	technomancy: my bad. Will do.
14:51	SegFaultAX	Still, pleasae no.
14:52	technomancy	mynomoto: but it sounds like the init form might be the culprit here
14:52	technomancy	confirm it's on the classpath, etc
14:52	cemerick	dnolen: any ideas re: a StackOverflow compiling a match form in one environment, not another (on the same commit in the same project)?
14:52	Apage43	indeed, it was a silly idea, and we've luckily scrapped it in favor of just writing a CouchDB-compatible lightweight db for that stuff
14:52	Raynes	I'd do the port stuff myself, but goodness, I value my life more than that.
14:52	Apage43	compatible meaning it syncs with it, not necessarily exposes the same API
14:53	dnolen	cemerick: hmm not really
14:55	SegFaultAX	Apage43: Why would you want such a thing to begin with?
14:55	mynomoto	technomancy: I'm running the plugin in that project folder. It should be in the classpath right?
14:55	cemerick	yeah, figured it'd be a longshot
14:56	Apage43	SegFaultAX: sync. CouchDB replication is really nice for that.
14:56	technomancy	mynomoto: maybe print out (leiningen.core.classpath/get-classpath project) before calling eval-in-project so you can verify?
14:56	dnolen	cemerick: feel free to open a ticket w/ stack trace, it might be obvious or it might not.
14:57	dnolen	cemerick: does heroku AOT?
14:57	SegFaultAX	Apage43: But couch on a mobile device? Ugh. It doesn't seem like you have the CPU nor the memory to do anything more than the most trivial work.
14:57	Apage43	that is: work offline for a bit, edit your local db, then connect up for a short time and sync it with some remote db.
14:57	cemerick	dnolen: good question, I don't recall....(goes to look)
14:58	Apage43	SegFaultAX: that's why it was silly. The new thing is a much less silly, being a layer over SQLite that implements some of the couchdb functionality.
14:58	ppppaul	try-let sounds sexy
14:58	ppppaul	gist gist gist!
14:59	Raynes	refheap refheap refheap!
14:59	cemerick	dnolen: heh, yeah, it does :-P
14:59	SegFaultAX	Apage43: We built something like that at my last job (mobile games). But were actually storing transformations in the database which would be streamed to the server in blocks when they regained connectivity.
14:59	owengalenjones	anyone using :creds :gpg ever see an EOF error when trying to pull lein deps from an archiva repository?
14:59	SegFaultAX	Apage43: I'm curious, is your implementation open source?
15:00	amalloy	gfredericks: try-let sounds like toilet
15:00	gfredericks	amalloy: phew!
15:00	Apage43	the new one isn't by me, but it's here https://github.com/couchbase/couchbase-lite-ios
15:00	gfredericks	amalloy: for several seconds I thought you were using "toilet" as a generic adjectivish thing to describe something you don't like
15:00	gfredericks	I can imagine tcrayford using the word that way
15:00	amalloy	haha
15:01	amalloy	that name is pants, sir
15:01	Apage43	formerly called TouchDB
15:01	dnolen	cemerick: that's probably the issue
15:01	Apage43	we had to slap branding on it
15:01	SegFaultAX	Apage43: Neat! Thanks.
15:01	dnolen	cemerick: there's a ticket for the AOT problem, would love some help on that one.
15:02	ppppaul	i used to couchdb
15:02	ppppaul	but not couchbase
15:02	ppppaul	they are a bit different
15:03	mynomoto	technomancy: It's in the classpath.
15:06	SegFaultAX	Is it just me or does github /feel/ very different when you're not logged in?
15:07	gideonite	hi i have a noob ring question: i can't seem to get form parameters from a request.
15:07	gideonite	when (:form-params req) i get a map with strange keys
15:07	gideonite	which are not symbols
15:07	gideonite	something like (user foobar) instead of (:user foobar)
15:08	gideonite	any advice?
15:08	SegFaultAX	gideonite: What middlewares are you using?
15:08	weavejester	gideonite: By default, parameters are strings
15:08	gideonite	should i being using wrap-params?
15:08	weavejester	Parameter keys, I mean, because a parameter name doesn't necessarily conform to what is allowed in a keyword
15:09	weavejester	For example, foo%20bar=baz translates to {"foo bar" "baz"}
15:09	SegFaultAX	gideonite: Are you using Compojure?
15:09	weavejester	The wrap-keyword-params middleware turns the parameter keys into keywords
15:09	gideonite	i'm actually using pedestal.io
15:10	SegFaultAX	Does pedestal use Compojure?
15:10	weavejester	But wrap-keyword-params only applies to (:params req)
15:10	weavejester	Pedestal doesn't use Compojure
15:10	SegFaultAX	Bummer.
15:10	weavejester	(:form-params req) will always have strings for keys
15:10	SegFaultAX	gideonite: https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/blob/master/src/compojure/handler.clj <- good example of some reasonable default middlewares.
15:11	weavejester	Presumably gideonite wants to do a lot of async work, which pedestal is designed for
15:11	gideonite	weavejester: right, but it does use ring. right now i'm just trying to set up something simple. ah, so i need to figure out how to get from a map where keys are string
15:11	gideonite	weavejester: eventually, yes.
15:11	weavejester	gideonite: Try accessing (:params req)
15:12	SegFaultAX	Is it safe to assume that pedestal sets up the common middlewares for you by default?
15:13	gideonite	weavejester: that does work. i now see that my question is really how to get from a map with strings as keys. that's already helpful
15:13	weavejester	gideonite: It's the same as getting from a map with keywords
15:13	weavejester	gideonite: Well, except that you can't use strings as functions
15:13	SegFaultAX	gideonite: Maps are functions of their keys.
15:14	weavejester	gideonite: So (params "foo") or (get params "foo")
15:14	SegFaultAX	gideonite: Keywords are functions, too. They try and get themselves from their argument.
15:14	gfredericks	dangit try-let is hard to write
15:15	gideonite	boom -- obviously it's get. noob questions! thanks so much
15:15	SegFaultAX	gideonite: Or using the map itself in function position, ##({"foo" 1 "bar" 2} "foo")
15:15	lazybot	⇒ 1
15:15	gideonite	there's also a function keyword fyi, if you're committed to having keywords
15:17	gideonite	SegFaultAX: haha, that seems complicated
15:18	SegFaultAX	gideonite: Why?
15:18	SegFaultAX	gideonite: As I said, maps are functions of their keys. That turns out to be really useful.
15:19	jcromartie	I am OK with putting important runtime state in a var.
15:19	jcromartie	there. I said it
15:19	gfredericks	"keys are functions of their maps" would be a fun terrible feature for a language
15:19	gfredericks	jcromartie: with alter-var-root? or with an atom?
15:20	jcromartie	not quite
15:20	jcromartie	I mean refs in vars
15:20	jcromartie	etc.
15:20	gfredericks	refs in vars in atoms in agents in actors in scala
15:20	jcromartie	yes
15:20	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: That's concurrency done right.
15:20	TimMc	gfredericks: I look forward (with some trepidation) to ##(format "lib-%04d" (rand-int 1e4))
15:20	lazybot	⇒ "lib-3236"
15:20	TimMc	(regarding keys and maps)
15:21	jcromartie	I think that a core namespace is the right place to bolt down some important things in place and put all the important parts together.
15:21	gfredericks	TimMc: mutable numbers first
15:22	gfredericks	TimMc: I resisted that naming pattern recently
15:25	[tab][tab][tab]	Oh my god this is the best nick.
15:25	SegFaultAX	[tab][tab][tab]: Hah
15:26	TimMc	...and registered.
15:27	gideonite	SegFaultAX: sorry, you are absolutely right. that's the best thing to do. i guess strings don't evaluate to themselves?
15:27	gfredericks	they do
15:27	gfredericks	(eval "foo") => "foo"
15:28	SegFaultAX	gideonite: Strings always evaluate to themselves.
15:29	TimMc	Strings, keywords, vectors, maps, sets...
15:29	amalloy	they just aren't functions
15:29	gideonite	then why can't i go ("foo" {"foo" "bar"})
15:29	SegFaultAX	gideonite: But they aren't functions. Keywords are and all they do is `get` themselves from their argument.
15:29	amalloy	TimMc: minus vectors, maps, and sets...
15:29	TimMc	amalloy: Eh?
15:29	gideonite	SegFaultAX: got it
15:29	amalloy	the vector [x] clearly does not evaluate to [x]
15:29	gfredericks	being evaluated and being called are different
15:30	gtrak	&(eval 'x)
15:30	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! eval is bad!
15:30	TimMc	amalloy: Hmm... fair.
15:30	gtrak	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1)
15:30	SegFaultAX	gideonite: I think most people like to use keywords as functions if the maps their dealing with have keyword keys.
15:31	SegFaultAX	gideonite: Eg (:foo {...}) vs. ({...} :foo)
15:31	SegFaultAX	Despite them being equivalent
15:31	gtrak	the first will never give an NPE
15:31	SegFaultAX	gideonite: For all other types of keys, you pretty much have to use the map in function position.
15:31	amalloy	meh, i rarely use maps in function position. i usually just use get
15:31	TimMc	,('foo {'foo 4})
15:31	clojurebot	4
15:31	TimMc	^ almost never used
15:32	SegFaultAX	TimMc: Literally never used.
15:32	clojurebot	TimMc: There is a Clojure patch on CLJ-1168 that seems like it should allow Leiningen to work with 1.5.0 and :jvm-opts ["-Dclojure.read.eval=unknown"] http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1168
15:32	TimMc	Thanks, bot. Thanks... for nothing.
15:32	nz	what is difference between with-redefs and binding? other than binding works only with vars that are marked ^:dynamic?
15:32	SegFaultAX	TimMc: But it is interesting that keywords are effectively just symbols.
15:32	nz	,(doc binding)
15:32	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); binding => var-symbol init-expr Creates new bindings for the (already-existing) vars, with the supplied initial values, executes the exprs in an implicit do, then re-establishes the bindings that existed before. The new bindings are made in parallel (unlike let); all init-exprs are evaluated before the vars are bound to their new values."
15:32	nz	,(doc with-redefs)
15:32	callen	sometimes I think the bot was coded to be unreliable/weird on purpose.
15:32	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); binding => var-symbol temp-value-expr Temporarily redefines Vars while executing the body. The temp-value-exprs will be evaluated and each resulting value will replace in parallel the root value of its Var. After the body is executed, the root values of all the Vars will be set back to their old values. These temporary changes will be visible in all threads. Useful for mockin...
15:33	TimMc	nz: The difference is that with-redefs is not thread-safe, alters the root, and should only be found in your test/ directory.
15:33	gfredericks	woah java is getting "default methods" for interfaces
15:34	TimMc	oh what
15:34	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: Oh? How does that make them different from abstracts?
15:34	gfredericks	they're on the interfaces instead of superclasses
15:34	nz	gfredericks: yep, it is so that List etc interfaces can work nicely with lambdas
15:35	SegFaultAX	Soo, Java is getting mixins via default interface methods?
15:35	gideonite	SegFaultAX: so in some sense :a evaluates to #(get % :a). i agree, it's a very nice concept
15:35	gfredericks	I am sitting 15 feet in front of Brian Goetz describing this
15:35	nz	you can add default implementation to interface. that impl is used if the implementing class doesn't implement the metod
15:36	TimMc	The slow slide into multiple inheritance.
15:36	SegFaultAX	TimMc: That's what I was thinking.
15:36	gfredericks	he said "java has always had multiple inheritance for types" and I'm not sure what that meant
15:36	SegFaultAX	TimMc: Very Ruby-esque.
15:36	gfredericks	is that what interfaces are?
15:36	nz	http://www.lambdafaq.org/do-default-methods-introduce-multiple-inheritance-to-java/
15:37	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: Maybe that classes can implement an infinite number of interfaces?
15:37	tieTYT2	can someone help me with this question? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16199258/how-can-i-pass-in-the-list-of-methods-to-gen-class
15:38	SegFaultAX	nz: Yup
15:38	tieTYT2	I think i'm asking a fundamental clojure question here, not something specific to gen-class
15:38	nz	list.forEach(System.out::println)
15:39	SegFaultAX	nz: Although I never really would have called that multiple inheritance because it carries a slightly different connotation for me than simply implementing any number of interfaces.
15:39	nz	multiple inheritance of behavior
15:40	SegFaultAX	nz: That's what I usually associate with MI, the behavior part. But it's easy to adjust that mental model to include types.
15:41	SegFaultAX	Still, default methods means that Java can now properly implement the mixin pattern. I guess that's ok?
15:44	tieTYT2	why does this return nil? (macroexpand-1 '(gen-class
15:44	tieTYT2	:name com.sandbox.GeneratedClass
15:44	tieTYT2	:methods [[hello [] String]]))
15:44	gfredericks	I think gen-class always expands to nil
15:45	nDuff	nod.
15:45	tieTYT2	how's that possible?
15:45	gfredericks	it's a side-effecting macro
15:45	tieTYT2	oh so I can't see what it's doing?
15:45	gfredericks	you can read the implementation
15:45	nDuff	tieTYT: It doesn't do anything at all except during ahead-of-time compilation.
15:45	gfredericks	the 7th rule of macro club is don't write side-effecting macros
15:45	tieTYT2	oh right
15:45	tieTYT2	ok well I really am stuck with this then
15:46	tieTYT2	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16199258/how-can-i-pass-in-the-list-of-methods-to-gen-class
15:46	amalloy	tieTYT2: that is not a thing it is possible to do
15:46	amalloy	nor would it be terribly useful if you could
15:46	gfredericks	and java's getting this streaming interface
15:46	tieTYT2	amalloy: ok thanks, at least now I know that.
15:47	SegFaultAX	Wow, gen-class is exceedingly complicated.
15:47	jcromartie	oh snap
15:47	jcromartie	cyclical dependency
15:47	tieTYT2	amalloy: the reason I want to do that is because I want to make a function you use like this: (GET "url" [url] some-body) that will generate a jersey class
15:47	tieTYT2	but I want each of those function calls to add a method to the gen-class
15:48	tieTYT2	and I can't figure out how to do that a method at a time
15:48	TimMc	jcromartie: Having everything in core?
15:49	TimMc	*too much
15:49	jcromartie	had something important in a web.core, that was used by web.core.routes.foo
15:49	jcromartie	and vice versa
15:53	gfredericks	I think java just invented reducers?
15:53	jcromartie	foo.bar.baz should not use vars in foo.bar, as a general principal
15:55	beaky	are there progrmaming languages that are better than clojure?
15:55	ppppaul	no
15:56	ppppaul	clojure is best
15:56	SegFaultAX	beaky: Better than Clojure /for what/?
15:56	ppppaul	even for micro computing
15:56	AimHere	beaky > INTERCAL is better than clojure.
15:56	ppppaul	or, micro-codeing
15:56	beaky	ah
15:56	gfredericks	yes: it has been proven that either J or Dart is better than Clojure, but also that it is impossible to determine which one
15:56	gfredericks	this has been called the "J-Dart Indeterminacy Problem"
15:56	ppppaul	J <3
15:57	ivan	if clojure doesn't do what you want, just write a sufficiently smart clojurescript emitter
15:57	beaky	hmm I should look into J
15:57	SegFaultAX	ppppaul: Have you seen Conway's GoL in APL?
15:57	ppppaul	i have
15:57	ppppaul	i was impressed
15:58	callen	beaky: fortran is way better than clojure
15:58	SegFaultAX	Such an excellent video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4
15:58	beaky	but fortran isn't as general-purpose as clojure afaik
15:58	Chousuke	with a sufficiently smart compiler, (can-have? 'pony) returns true and a pony will be delivered shortly
15:59	beaky	it's just a dinosaur language for dinosaur numerical computing libs that have over 6 decades of optimization
15:59	amalloy	Chousuke: i would expect more like a piece of paper with the word pony to arrive
15:59	amalloy	(can-have? pony) might give you an actual pony
15:59	Chousuke	that may be
15:59	Chousuke	or maybe the compiler is feeling generous and gives you a pony sticker instead
15:59	ppppaul	i want pony
16:00	AimHere	I think if something has 60 years of optimization, then it's going to be pretty damn optimized, and quite likely to be the best at what it does. Therefore Fortran is Best Language
16:00	AimHere	QED
16:00	patchwork	I do all my computations on abacus
16:00	ppppaul	abacus is best language
16:00	gfredericks	the first language to be invented is necessarily the best
16:00	callen	AimHere: Fortran used to have a performance advantage on C due to design that has since been overcome with vectorization and compiler flags.
16:01	callen	AimHere: advantages that weren't entirely due to "time", keeping in mind that C has had quite a lot of industry dollars dumped into it.
16:01	SegFaultAX	AimHere: Also, quite a lot of math library code is still written in Fortran even today.
16:01	beaky	ah
16:02	TimMc	English is a pretty nifty programming language. Very expressive. However, a sufficiently powerful runtime can be quite expensive.
16:02	callen	TimMc: I hear grad students make good interpreters.
16:03	callen	beaky: is somebody commissioning you to ask questions for a dictionary with definitions composed entirely of IRC logs?
16:03	AimHere	English is just Cobol++
16:03	Apage43	English interpreters tend to be pretty slow, comparatively.
16:04	Apage43	You can sometimes get one to translate your English to something more computer usable though :)
16:06	TimMc	English is very prone to non-deterministic bugs. For instance, if you issue the same command multiple times, it is likely to stop working.
16:06	guns	Does lazy-seq guarantee safe concurrent access to the next value?
16:06	beaky	I guess all programming languages have a raison d'etre; hence there is no best one
16:06	TimMc	The result is that the more you test a program, the less likely it is to work!
16:06	guns	I found what I thought was an unsynchronized mutation in a deftype on (next)
16:07	Chousuke	english is not a very good programming language
16:07	guns	but the object was wrapped in a lazy-seq and survived hammering from 1000 threads!
16:07	Chousuke	compilation takes months or years, might not terminate, and the end result might or might not correspond to what you mean
16:07	guns	sorry for interleaving the conversation.
16:08	TimMc	guns: You're not the one who should be apologizing. :-P
16:08	TimMc	Is the code somewhere where we can see it?
16:08	guns	TimMc: If you're interested, I could gist it
16:09	Raynes	&(interleave '[Chousuke TimMc] '[guns Raynes])
16:09	lazybot	⇒ (Chousuke guns TimMc Raynes)
16:09	Raynes	Sorry for interleaving guys!
16:10	Chousuke	You made me gun TimMc, Raynes
16:10	Chousuke	that is not nice
16:10	Raynes	Nice.
16:12	tbaldridge	guns: yes it does: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LazySeq.java
16:12	tbaldridge	notice how sval and seq anre synchronized, thus only one thread can be running those methods on the same object at a time.
16:12	guns	tbaldridge: I took a look at that file, but didn't immediately see an answer to my inquiry
16:13	guns	I guess I should have read closer
16:13	tbaldridge	guns: yeah it's a nasty bit of code.
16:13	guns	tbaldridge: Ah, I see it now. Brilliant
16:14	tbaldridge	that's actually the cool thing about Seqs as opposed to interators or .NET's IEnumerable. running over the same seq 100 times will only actually calculate the seq once.
16:15	guns	I was using a Random and BitSet in my deftype; I thought I would have to lock and clone, but lazy-seq took care of all the details
16:16	tieTYT2	amalloy: i don't understand why you're saying that would not be very useful
16:19	tieTYT2	I'm getting the sense clojure is a bad language to build a java-code generator
16:19	Apage43	i once used clojure to generate C. I wish I could stop remembering.
16:20	Raynes	s/clojure/any language/
16:24	tieTYT2	I'm trying to write a clojure DSL to generate Jersey code, but it doesn't seem possible to me since gen-class won't let you pass in a dynamic list of method names
16:26	TimMc	Macros to the "rescue"...
16:26	tieTYT2	a macro that generates a gen-class ?
16:27	tieTYT2	I didn't know that was an option
16:27	raek	sigh why is the syntax highlighting suddenly gone for me in clojure-mode...
16:29	Raynes	raek: Holy shit. I haven't seen you speak in like a year.
16:29	Raynes	How are you? Besides your emacs being broken?
16:33	andrew__	this might be a ridiculous question, but what is the difference in terms of java interop between using . and /? for example, I sometimes see ServerSocketChannel/open but on the next line I'll see (InetSocketAddress. "localhost" 5000)
16:33	raek	Raynes: things are good...
16:34	andrew__	are only certain things able to use the / for interop, whereas others must use the . ?
16:34	raek	have been playing with Haskell for some time (and I also have a job nowadays)
16:35	dnolen	andrew__: / for static methods
16:35	raek	andrew__: (Foo/bar) means bar method of Foo class, but (Foo.) means Foo constructor
16:35	andrew__	much appreciated dnolen and raek
16:41	iamdrw	greetings. is there a profiler for clojure? because profiling via time makes me go mad
16:42	tcrayford	iamdrw: all the jvm profilers work
16:42	tcrayford	so jvisualvm works (and you prolly already have it installed), yourkit is free if you're open source and mention it on your page, and much better than jvisualvm
16:43	nightfly__	profiling results might be dissapointingly vague if using higher-order functions though
16:43	amalloy	technomancy: how do i force refetching of snapshot dependencies?
16:44	technomancy	amalloy: lein -U deps
16:44	TimMc	iamdrw: If you just want benchmarking of different algorithms, criterium is excellent.
16:44	amalloy	thanks
16:45	iamdrw	criterium seems what I was looking for. Thanx
16:47	amalloy	criterium is great if you want to know how long a particular thing takes; yourkit is more work, but is better if you want to know what is taking so long
16:47	tcrayford	they do different jobs for you ;)
16:49	weavejester	Hmmm… there might be a bug in core.memoize… either that or I'm misreading this stacktrace
16:49	amalloy	weavejester: core.memoize and core.cache both do a big pile of reflection for no particular reason. i'd consider that a bug, in libraries designed to improve performance
16:51	weavejester	I get this interesting stacktrace, which looks like a race condition: https://gist.github.com/weavejester/60a0a0bf334af85ffdfe
16:53	amalloy	,@nil
16:53	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
16:53	amalloy	funny that it thinks that's a Future, but whatever
16:54	weavejester	I think that's the last type of deref it tries...
16:54	hiredman	because deref now works on non-clojure created java futures
16:54	hiredman	yet another hand rolled protocol
16:55	cemerick	dnolen_: yeah, it was AOT. I'll see if I can track it down. Hopefully I can be 1/3 with core.match issues. :-P
16:55	dnolen_	cemerick: :)
16:57	weavejester	It would seem to imply that (swap! cache through* f args) is returning nil for some reason
16:58	weavejester	Which implies clojure.core.cache/through is...
16:58	weavejester	I'm not seeing how that's possible, however...
16:59	dnolen_	iamdrw: I recommend YourKit, criterium appears nice for only high level benchmarking
16:59	dnolen_	er profiling
16:59	amalloy	weavejester: of course it's possible: cache is a protocol, and you can implement it so that every function returns nil
17:00	weavejester	amalloy: Yeah, but all the functions in the TTLCache seem to return not-nil
17:03	mikerod	When someone was learning Clojure the other day, they posted the question "so what's the "right" thing to do other than the giant, procedural let block?" I didn't have a good answer or a good reference. However, I feel there is much more to programming in Clojure than a "big procedural let block." Hmm.
17:04	mikerod	I've been puzzling over what to say to this.
17:04	bbloom	depends on the problem at hand
17:04	bbloom	but generally the answer is more functions....
17:05	mikerod	Yeah, I think it was a question directed at what does the functional paradigm offer over the "big procedural let block" perhaps.
17:05	mikerod	More functions is appropriate I'd say. :P
17:05	bbloom	it's very common to see a (-> pipeline of step functions like this) where you thread a {:map "of" :keys "like" :this "through"}
17:05	technomancy	what does being in a let block have to do with being procedural?
17:06	bbloom	technomancy: i assume he means that he is shadowing names for each incremental "change"
17:06	mikerod	I don't think of them as coupled.
17:06	technomancy	bbloom: hm; that's a strange use of the word procedural
17:07	bbloom	technomancy: i agree, but i've seen quite a few people new to functional programming use single static assignment in a way that feels like a throwback to some C code
17:07	mikerod	I agree it was an open ended question and over generalized. I think bbloom had the right description with "shadowing names for each incremental change".
17:07	technomancy	I don't think there's anything wrong with shadowing names for each change if it's a case where -> is not suitable for argument order reasons
17:08	technomancy	that pattern alone does not make code procedural
17:08	bbloom	i agree with technomancy, but i'll add that after a small handful of let bindings & your function gets too big, it is a code smell
17:09	technomancy	right; but function size is orthogonal to let-rebinding
17:09	technomancy	well, they may be correlated, I guess
17:09	pjstadig	correlation is orthogonal!
17:09	bbloom	technomancy: forgive me for jumping to conclusions, but mikerod seems to have suggested that i read his & his colleagues' minds... :-)
17:10	mikerod	So more functions obviously gives you more abstraction, modularity, reuse, comprehensibility, etc.
17:10	bbloom	mikerod: it's also just easier to work with if you stick some stuff in a map b/c you can print it out
17:10	mikerod	bbloom: I don't agree with the question I posted, I just have had a hard time formulating an appropriate response.
17:11	bbloom	mikerod: yeah, it's hard to teach someone a new way of thinking
17:11	mikerod	bbloom: Indeed. I appreciate your feedback on it too.
17:14	Raynes	guns: Oh, you're the vim-clojure-static guy.
17:14	Raynes	guns: I commend you on your efforts good sir.
17:17	seancorfield	just saw the discussion about clj-time... i inherited it and am not particularly attached to the names in it... that said, introducing 'second' would cause many users of clj-time to see the ugly "warning ... name already bound to ..." message on :use or :refer :all ... which is how most code uses it i suspect
17:17	gfredericks	seancorfield: I think most of our usages of clj-time are :as or :refer [...]
17:18	seancorfield	but it wouldn't be the only library that shadows a core function and folks know how to get around it...
17:18	gfredericks	mostly on principle of avoiding :use/:all
17:18	seancorfield	gfredericks: you could well be right
17:18	seancorfield	and the docs could make it clear too
17:18	gfredericks	seancorfield: just piping up with a data point
17:18	seancorfield	clojure.java.jdbc has shadowed resultset-seq for a long time, for example
17:19	TimMc	seancorfield: Maybe that's a good reason to call it "second" -- fewer people using :use.
17:19	seancorfield	(but core/resultset-seq is a silly place for that function!)
17:19	seancorfield	TimMc: heh, yeah, strong encouragement to change their ways :)
17:20	seancorfield	feel free to create an issue https://github.com/clj-time/clj-time/issues (when github comes back up :)
17:21	Raynes	seancorfield: If that's how most code uses it then that code is wrong and needs to be changed anyways.
17:27	seancorfield	"most code is wrong" -- Raynes, April 2013 :)
17:27	seancorfield	i agree, btw
17:28	Raynes	seancorfield: I'm writing an issue.
17:29	Raynes	https://github.com/clj-time/clj-time/issues/70
17:32	seancorfield	thank you sir!
17:41	Raynes	seancorfield: https://twitter.com/mikeflynn_/status/327175064644628481
17:43	patchwork	Is worst a dynamic var there?
17:45	patchwork	Anyone use morph for modeling global state? https://github.com/blancas/morph/wiki/Modeling-Global-Data
17:45	patchwork	I am looking at it as an alternative to having a dynamic var for configuration
17:45	patchwork	might be more trouble than it's worth
17:46	patchwork	I like the idea of having pure functions access global values without passing config vars everywhere though
17:47	TimMc	Raynes: I wonder how much of that is just "time is hard" and the guy thinks it is clj-time's fault.
17:47	Raynes	TimMc: All of it I'd wager.
17:51	seancorfield	i replied on twitter suggesting he open issues with improvement ideas
17:51	seancorfield	a lot of ppl are quick to criticize but slow to actually suggest concrete improvements
17:52	joegallo	well, it's easy to take potshots from the peanut gallery, much harder to climb down and start working ;)
17:54	TimMc	You can't really file a proper (design) bug report in 140 characters, but if you file a github issue you don't get to be ranty in front of your friends, and we can't have that.
17:58	rasmusto	why does this behave differently at the repl and when doing 'lein run'?: (map (comp #(.exists %) as-file) ["." "target" "/tmp" "fjoewifj"]) ; (I only get false when doing lein run)
17:58	callen	Raynes: I +1'd your issue.
17:59	callen	Raynes: WITH RUV
17:59	Raynes	callen: Good on ye, sir.
18:01	seancorfield	callen: changing everything to plurals would be kinda disruptive to existing users... and i think there are already some singular and plural versions of the same thing?
18:01	seancorfield	i'll have to go dig into the API when i get to that
18:02	Raynes	tpope: It'd be cool if I could pass a commit message to :Gcommit somehow.
18:03	callen	seancorfield: I'm open to superior alternatives that don't rest on "don't fix things"
18:03	Raynes	tpope: It'd be useful for quick commits with short messages.
18:03	callen	seancorfield: you could have a migration period where using the old names pukes a warning and lets them know the next semver compliant version will get rid of the old names.
18:04	SegFaultAX	Raynes: But if you're already in the editor, what does that actually buy you?
18:05	Raynes	SegFaultAX: About 4 keystrokes.
18:05	rasmusto	hey Raynes, can I bounce a fugitive+fireplace idea/pull req off of you?
18:05	SegFaultAX	i:wq is too much?
18:05	Raynes	SegFaultAX: Yes.
18:05	SegFaultAX	I guess i<esc>:wq
18:05	Raynes	rasmusto: Sure, but I have nothing to do with either of those projects.
18:05	rasmusto	I'm wondering if I should submit a pull request for this: https://github.com/rasmusto/vim-fireplace/commit/f8ae7c429aaa4a6375dbbade239b5f1b82538506
18:06	rasmusto	Raynes: I'm just curious if anyone would use it
18:06	Raynes	I don't think I use fugitive nearly well enough for this to be useful to me in particular, but that doesn't mean it isn't good.
18:07	rasmusto	It lets you use cpp when inside of a :Gdiff window, so you can throw old code at the REPL
18:07	Raynes	That sounds totally useful.
18:07	Raynes	You should run it by tpope.
18:07	rasmusto	I've pinged him a few times, which is why I was wondering about just making an issue/preq
18:07	Raynes	Yeah, that's best. He isn't around particularly often.
18:08	rasmusto	kk
18:19	rocco`	can someone help me with something
18:19	TimMc	rocco`: Just go ahead and ask your question; if someone can help they will answer.
18:20	rocco`	I'm running a repl in emacs and I'd like for a function running in a different thread to print into the repl
18:21	rocco`	right now I have no idea where it prints because I don't understand the in and out streams
18:23	TimMc	Oh, that can be tricky. I remember something about nREPL binding a new out for each new entry, too.
18:24	rocco`	what would be the preferred way to do it?
18:27	technomancy	use bound-fn for your thread maybe
18:29	TimMc	rocco`: Oh right, how are you starting that thread?
18:30	rocco`	using the java Thread start
18:30	rocco`	should I use clojure abstractions instead?
18:31	rocco`	I'm just learning this
18:31	rocco`	I'm trying to run a socket server with server-socket from the old contrib
18:31	rocco`	and I want it to speak to me :)
18:37	whinub	Hey guys, I'm pretty new to clojure but I was wondering if anyone could recommend a decent sized program / project with good documentation that I could read through and learn from.
18:38	rocco`	whinub: how about the clojure implementation itself?
18:40	TimMc	The Clojure implementation breaks all the Clojure dev rules. :-/
18:40	technomancy	that's not a very good way to learn
18:40	TimMc	Leiningen is pretty nice.
18:40	technomancy	TimMc: as long as you skip the profile merge stuff =)
18:41	beppu	rocco`: this one is relatively small and is well documented. https://github.com/Engelberg/instaparse
18:42	beppu	(that last one was for whinhub)
18:42	rocco`	:)
18:43	whinub	Thanks for the suggestions guys, will definitely be checking them out.
18:43	rocco`	I'm also going to check it out
18:44	TimMc	rocco`: clojure.core/future and other multi-threaded constructs generally convey bindings such as out to the new thread.
18:46	rocco`	makes sense
18:46	rocco`	will try
18:55	rocco`	there's something about lein I don't understand
18:56	rocco`	is running a lein repl the same as doing a jack-in
18:56	callen	whinub: web app?
18:56	rocco`	no just ordinary app
18:56	callen	rocco`: I wasn't talking to you.
18:57	callen	whinub: do you want to see what a clojure web app looks like?
19:01	technomancy	rocco`: jack-in is just `lein repl :headless` plus connecting an elisp client to it
19:02	SegFaultAX	whinub: If so, refheap and 4clojure are both open source.
19:02	technomancy	as is clojars
19:03	tpope	Raynes: :Gcommit -m works
19:04	Raynes	tpope: Of course it does. Because you're tpope. I should have just known.
19:23	bingo	Any one has experience installing with brew install leiningen 2.1.3 in mac osx?
19:23	Raynes	Meh, don't bother.
19:23	amalloy	don't use brew
19:23	Raynes	Just install via the shell script.
19:23	technomancy	homebrew is kind of silly
19:23	Raynes	Don't use a package manager for anything related to Clojure ever.
19:23	bingo	oh i see.
19:23	Raynes	technomancy: It's perfectly fine for other things, but it's silly for this and Clojure in general.
19:23	technomancy	Raynes: I disagree
19:24	Raynes	amalloy: OS X comes with a JVM iirc.
19:24	Raynes	technomancy: What package manager would you propose I use?
19:24	Raynes	None at all?
19:24	whinub	callen: Hey sorry about delay went to cook some dinner. Taking a look at a web app would be awesome. What do you recommend?
19:24	Raynes	I kind of need one.
19:24	technomancy	Raynes: apt-get or nix
19:24	amalloy	technomancy: brew is silly, but it's better than the alternatives on osx
19:24	Raynes	And this is the least shitty of all of them.
19:24	technomancy	I don't know of any other good ones
19:24	Raynes	technomancy: I need one that's actually useful.
19:24	technomancy	amalloy: I don't dispute that
19:25	Raynes	Nix is great and all, but I have things to do besides making packages for everything I ever use.
19:25	bbloom	brew has been 1) fast 2) (generally) up-to-date and 3) not-horribly-broken... which is not something that can be said for any other OSX package manager
19:25	Raynes	My only problem with brew is that at least 70% of the packages I've ever tried to install would break while installing in one way or another.
19:25	Raynes	Fortunately they fix these problems relatively fast.
19:26	bingo	Well any way, I have been struggle of trying to run lein but it is complaining of depencies. I was running lein deps, and i still havin ghte same issue.
19:26	Raynes	(70% is an exaggeration)
19:26	bbloom	Raynes: clearly.
19:26	technomancy	stockholm syndrome much?
19:26	bbloom	meanwhile, plan 9 namespaces would dramatically simplify every package manager ever.
19:27	pjstadig	my only problem with driving on the road is that 70% if the time i die on the way to my destination
19:27	technomancy	pjstadig: other than that, the weinermobile is a great form of transportation
19:28	Raynes	But fortunately the paramedics resuscitate you relatively fast?
19:28	technomancy	it's aerodynamic and stuff
19:28	Raynes	Not sure if that metaphor goes all the way here.
19:29	pjstadig	(it was an exaggeration)
19:29	Raynes	Touché.
19:31	patchwork	70% of all exaggerations result in developer death
19:31	bbloom	i myself has died literally thousands of times
19:37	weavejester	I think I've figured out why core.memoize/memo-ttl occassionally excepts
19:37	weavejester	Unfortunately I'll need to use JIRA to report it sigh
19:40	amalloy	weavejester: send fogus an email, and maybe he'll fix it for you in secret
19:40	rationalrevolt	,(let [o '+] (o 1 2))
19:40	clojurebot	2
19:40	weavejester	amalloy: I think I might raise it on clojure-dev first. I'd like a second opinion or two
19:40	rationalrevolt	am i not doing this right?
19:40	Bronsa	I still don't understand what's preventing contrib libraries from using github issues
19:41	amalloy	rationalrevolt: '+ is a symbol, not the addition function
19:41	amalloy	+ is the addition function
19:41	patchwork	,(let [o +] (o 1 2))
19:41	clojurebot	3
19:41	weavejester	Do symbols act as functions to maps, the same as keywords?
19:41	amalloy	yesz
19:42	weavejester	,('+ {'+ 2})
19:42	clojurebot	2
19:42	weavejester	,('+ {'+ 2} :not-found)
19:42	clojurebot	2
19:42	weavejester	,('+ {'+ 3} :not-found)
19:42	clojurebot	3
19:42	weavejester	,('+ 3 :not-found)
19:42	clojurebot	:not-found
19:42	weavejester	Just checking :)
19:43	weavejester	rationalrevolt: So yep, ('+ 1 2) is the same as (get 1 '+ 2)
19:44	weavejester	rationalrevolt: It tries to lookup a key '+ on 1, but since 1 isn't a map it fails and returns the failure result, which has been set to 2.
19:44	amalloy	i thought that was supposed to throw an exception in 1.5 now
19:44	amalloy	looking things up in a non-map
19:44	weavejester	,clojure-version
19:44	clojurebot	{:major 1, :minor 5, :incremental 0, :qualifier "RC6"}
19:44	amalloy	,(contains? 4 3)
19:44	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: contains? not supported on type: java.lang.Long>
19:44	amalloy	,(get 4 3)
19:44	clojurebot	nil
19:44	amalloy	apparently it's just the contains? check, not get
19:45	Bronsa	amalloy: the get patch didn't get into 1.5 afaik
19:47	rationalrevolt	thanks weavejester
20:01	bingo	Hi Anyone, I would like to get someone who has experience install leiningen on mac osx 10.8.2
20:02	amalloy	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/README.md#installation
20:02	bingo	let me try again.
20:16	bttf	why can't i :use two different namespaces that have the same method defined ?
20:16	bttf	all calls to that method are explicity dereferenced to their respective namespace
20:17	amalloy	bttf: you want require, not use. use is explicitly for non-aliased names
20:18	bttf	amalloy: but can i require without aliasing ?
20:19	bttf	wait what is the aliasing part ... (require foo.bar as bar) or (require foo) so that i only have to type bar
20:19	bttf	(require foo.bar :as bar)
20:20	Bronsa	(require '[foo.bar :as bar])
20:20	Bronsa	or (ns .. (:require [foo.bar :as bar]))
20:20	bttf	oh right
20:22	bttf	ok seems i was confused about require
20:24	mynomoto	technomancy: I did the fun project of find repetitions in code. But still no luck turning it into a lein plugin. And it was not that fun :) https://github.com/mynomoto/lein-repetition
20:26	mynomoto	If someone knows how to make this works as a lein plugin I'd be glad. Can't require the project namespace.
20:26	technomancy	huh, why do you need it to be a lein plugin
20:26	technomancy	?
20:28	technomancy	err--why do you need to cross the boundary between leiningen and the project?
20:28	technomancy	can't you do it exclusively through static analysis?
20:29	mynomoto	technomancy: Doesn't need, just trying to learn something new.
20:30	technomancy	sure
20:30	mynomoto	It needs to know if a var is bounded in the ns or it will make it generic.
20:30	technomancy	oh, ok
20:31	technomancy	I guess you can't assume all vars are created by def or defn because of macroexpansion
20:31	technomancy	it looks like you're trying to require plugin namespaces from inside eval-in-project though; that's probably where it's breaking
20:32	technomancy	you can only require things from :dependencies
20:32	mynomoto	technomancy: But I can change the project dependencies right?
20:33	mynomoto	Or could put everything in one file...
20:33	technomancy	mynomoto: you could add to :dependencies but that can get hairy when profiles come into play
20:34	technomancy	if you can run everything inside the project process it's simpler
20:34	technomancy	just say "add this to :dependencies and then run lein run -m repetition.finder" or something
20:34	technomancy	or if the code to be run in the project isn't that big you could build it up as one big form like `lein test` does
20:35	technomancy	but that gets unmanageable once you have more than a page or so
20:36	mynomoto	Ok, I will try the lein run way. Thanks.
21:01	rocco``	is there a way to access a thread if you deleted the reference to it
21:01	rocco``	I mean a function that's running in that thread