#clojure – 2013-04-05

2013-04-05

00:12	mmitchell	gfredericks: i finally got it, and dang it's ugly! But this actually does what I want: https://www.refheap.com/paste/13283
00:12	mmitchell	if you change the "(is (= (subtract 1 2) 100)" to "(is (= (add 1 2) 100)" you'll see the error message in the REPL
02:16	mjc`	whoa. the full ramifications of laziness just hit me.
02:16	mjc`	my program exited before all my side effects happened
02:17	arrdem	that can happen... isn't it cool?
02:18	mjc`	very
02:51	arrdem	how long has the clojure in scheme project been running?
02:51	arrdem	I just found it...
02:51	arrdem	and I'm in awe
02:53	arrdem	almost a year... man I'm glad I found this.
03:06	arrdem	anyone still awake care to comment on MIT vs EPL? I just read the EPL text and don't see any major differences.
03:06	akhudek	arrdem: last I read it, if you modify an EPL program you are required to release the source, though you can freely link to it or use it as a library without doing anything
03:07	arrdem	akhudek: ah that makes more sense.
03:07	akhudek	e.g. it's more like lgpl
03:07	arrdem	I just noted that the commercialization clauses were equivalent
03:08	arrdem	akhudek: however the onus for enforcing compliance lies with the original author, correct?
03:08	arrdem	or and "Contributor" I suppose
03:10	akhudek	that's true of all licenses
03:12	arrdem	okay thanks for the info! I just started reading some GPL3 code and realized that I should remedy my ignorance of the different F/OSS license terms
03:12	akhudek	it's worth knowing about!
03:12	akhudek	easy to run into incompatibilities
03:13	akhudek	esp. with GPL
03:13	arrdem	ah copyleft...
03:14	devn	RE: EPL -- I sometimes find the notices at the top of source files which say "You must not remove this notice, or any other, from this software." to be wildly annoying
03:14	devn	It's like ceremonious code bloat
03:14	arrdem	meh... TBH tho if you didn't put it at the top I'd forget about the license when I'm just reading source
03:14	arrdem	besides. bytes are cheap and the compiler(s) throw all that away anyhow
03:15	devn	arrdem: If you add an additional 10 lines to every file in your project, I find that annoying. I'm not worried about a performance issue or something.
03:16	devn	And frankly I'm not "worried" about 10 lines in every file, but I do find it annoying. That should count for something. I can't be alone.
03:17	devn	I think in general it plants the seed that you should think for a bit about whether you want to contribute to a project.
03:17	devn	Legalese in my source code? Not unless I'm working on an application that deals specifically with law.
03:18	devn	It's subtly stifling. This is the reason people ask about the EPL: "Wait, can I do the stuff I want to do?"
03:18	akhudek	devn: unfortunately there is no way around legalese. Anyone writing software needs to understand the basics.
03:18	augustl	I agree, I find license preambles in source code very annoying
03:18	devn	The EPL doesn't have the same reputation as MIT, GPL, or BSD. Some people are license mavens. I'm not one of them.
03:19	devn	We talk about "clean code" and "DRY" and all of this stuff, but we are open to adding a giant comment block to our source files.
03:20	devn	It's on the verge of, well, ridiculous.
03:20	devn	ridiculosity
03:20	arrdem	giant? a five line 80chr prefix isn't bad... my ranting comments are known to do much worse XP
03:21	devn	arrdem: comments are a disease in general IMHO. In any event, now we're starting to talk about style. Licences ought not cramp our style.
03:22	arrdem	I jest, but you could consider license function metadata sadly
03:23	devn	heh, honestly I wish leiningen removed the default of EPL for licenses
03:23	arrdem	makes sense right? :doc, :added :author :license
03:23	devn	I think it adds this air of "official" to things which sometimes have no business being considered official
03:24	akhudek	devn: agree with that, shouldn't be opinionated about licenses
03:24	arrdem	devn: I think this is the only project I've done the prefix thing in and published..
03:24	arrdem	https://github.com/arrdem/SimpleVM#disclaimer
03:24	devn	"official" often gives off a vibe that turns the intrepid into scared sheep.
03:25	akhudek	and speaking of lein, lein-pedantic really should be a standard part of lein
03:25	devn	i will give a "meh" to that
03:25	devn	because ive never seen it actually help me
03:25	akhudek	It's so easy to get undefined behavor on larger projects.
03:25	devn	i use it, but ive never been like "whoa! that shit is messed up!"
03:26	arrdem	that's cool...
03:26	devn	questions arive for me akhudek: How big is "larger"?
03:26	devn	arise*
03:26	devn	Is the need for pedantic a sign of a project doing more than it ought to? Etc.
03:26	akhudek	devn: The most recent personal case I've seen was with a 20+ dep project
03:27	devn	akhudek: the domain matters I think
03:27	devn	I'm guessing it was http or dom-related?
03:27	devn	web-related?
03:27	akhudek	devn: yep
03:27	arrdem	that's... more clojure than I've ever seen in one place before.
03:28	arrdem	s/seen/heard of/
03:28	devn	that stuff is ridiculous. i'll agree with you there i guess, but i guess i wonder if pedantic is treating a symptom rather than the problem
03:28	devn	can we curate more as a community to try and prevent the need for pedantic?
03:29	akhudek	lein deps :tree \| wc gives 108 lines
03:29	arrdem	devn: the only library issues I've encountered are noir and fnparse
03:29	akhudek	devn: it's pretty hard in general with the pace that libraries evolve
03:29	arrdem	both of which are deprecated and that isn't stated clearly
03:29	devn	akhudek: i feel like that's kind of a lie
03:30	akhudek	devn: what is?
03:30	arrdem	akhudek: keeping up with lib devel
03:30	devn	the assertion that no one could possibly keep up with some common set of "edge" "templates" for working dependencies
03:30	devn	it could even be automated
03:30	devn	pedantic is mechanical
03:31	akhudek	the trouble is that each library needs to keep it's dependencies up to date
03:31	akhudek	and make sure that new versions don't break things
03:31	akhudek	things like lein-outdated are a pretty good tool
03:31	devn	akhudek: but like...tests
03:31	devn	don't people protect themselves at all from the weather outside?
03:31	akhudek	devn: yes, lots of those would be good too :)
03:32	devn	akhudek: im just saying, depending on what you're working on, there are certain pragmatic levels of attention that should be paid to these sorts of things
03:32	devn	and in some cases I find pedantic to be a complete waste of my time
03:33	devn	It's like: "Here, do this! (PS: I can't tell you whether it matters or not)"
03:33	akhudek	devn: the only thing worse than not knowing if a fix will work is having depedendencies randomly shuffle on you!
03:33	devn	So every time I change a dependency I'm supposed to run some other task to check whether or not I'm still blessed by the Holy Dependency Management System
03:34	devn	That just seems like a weak ass workflow
03:34	akhudek	devn: it checks automatically, you don't usually run into many errors
03:35	devn	akhudek: I've seen people reorder 3 things in their project.clj and all of a sudden things magically change. I get grossed out by that. But again, back to my original criticism: I've never, not a single time, actually been like "Thank God for lein-pedantic!"
03:35	devn	It literally has never been something I've needed, and I have dozens of commits and time spent editing my project.clj to heed pedantic's warnings.
03:36	devn	At a certain point I think it's natural to question whether or not this is actually valuable to me.
03:36	devn	I'm not obsessed with staying on edge.
03:36	akhudek	devn: I don't get it, how else would you solve the reordering problem you mentioned?
03:37	devn	akhudek: what I meant is: lein-pedantic is like "okay, cool!" if you reorder deps
03:37	devn	which is like... uhh, okay...
03:38	devn	if we're talking pedantry, why not try every permutation of deps to come up with the least amount of issues?
03:39	akhudek	devn: order really has nothing to do with it, it's more that updates can cause issues. Everyone updates their libraries, they may not even be aware of issues due to caching and the like. Then they go to deploy and suddenly things are not working.
03:39	devn	if i have enough time to tinker with my project.clj for 20 minutes, i have enough time to let it try 5! times to give me a good solution
03:40	devn	akhudek: i will shut up because i don't think i'm going to be able to give a solution to this problem
03:40	devn	but i feel like pedantic is a bandage and it doesn't address the real issue
03:40	devn	which is why i am strongly opposed to it being something lein includes by default
03:40	MasseR	Wait what, it matters in what order you put dependencies in lein?
03:41	devn	MasseR: I've seen lein-pedantic give different results for different orders, yes, I believe that's the case.
03:41	devn	which is like-- WAT
03:41	devn	I believe Jim Crossley pointed this out in his demo of Immutant at Clojure/conj
03:42	MasseR	Hmm... Doesn't lein use maven internally? So maven is dependent on order..?
03:42	akhudek	MasseR: I've possibly even seen lein exhibit nondeterministic behaviour in what versions of libraries it uses between runs.
03:42	arrdem	devn: while I agree with you in theory, if we don't trust library maintainers to stay up to date, then something like pendantic makes perfect sense because you want to be able to discern when you aren't up to date & warn
03:42	devn	He was like: "So, lein-pedantic complains... but if you put this dep here and that dep there, and add this exclusion, voila!"
03:42	akhudek	MasseR: the basic problem is if you have two libraries, A and B, that both depend on C, but A depends on C v1 while B depends on Cv2, what happens when you include both A and B as dependencies?
03:43	akhudek	MasseR: do you get C v1 or C v2?
03:43	akhudek	devn: in any case, I don't know of any better way to solve the problem right now, but I do like knowing about the problem :-)
03:43	akhudek	been bitten by it too many times
03:43	devn	IMO the Answer is: Handle testing your system in a way that doesn't desperately rely on lein-pedantic to tell you about a problem.
03:44	devn	If you're relying on lein-pedantic to help you keep your app stable, you're Doing It Wrong.
03:44	MasseR	akhudek: Agreed, but imo as long as they are not exclusive, do a choice and stick to it
03:44	akhudek	devn: tests certainly go a long way, though nobody write perfect tests
03:44	devn	Who in their right mind runs lein-pedantic, fixes their deps, and sleeps easy with no tests around their app and how it's supposed to behave?
03:44	MasseR	"Hey, I need v1 or v2, and I seem to have v1 installed, that dependency is then ok"
03:45	devn	It seems absolutely ridiculous to suggest that lein-pedantic is this wonderful catch-all tool for a lack of testing and quality in software.
03:45	devn	"Does my shit work? y/N"
03:45	akhudek	devn: never said it was a substitute for testing, just another test itself
03:46	devn	akhudek: im just getting animated about it
03:46	akhudek	ok, feel free to continue then :D
03:46	devn	because im not a testing freak or trying to set file permissions with a magnet and a pin
03:46	devn	BUT, I think we need to be real about what pedantic's role actually is
03:46	devn	it should be a diagnostic tool
03:47	devn	when your tests fail, you might look at it
03:47	devn	but i don't think it has the kind of weight people seem to give it
03:47	muhoo	um, pedantic is a dependency-resolution tool, AFAICT
03:47	devn	muhoo: in response to?
03:48	mjc	the github generation
03:48	muhoo	it's not a testing tool, doesn't try to be one, and i've never heard anyone refer to it as one or try to use it as one
03:48	devn	heh
03:48	devn	muhoo: so how does it fit into people's workflows?
03:50	muhoo	i dunno too many people, so i can't say. in MY workflow i use it as a dependency resolution tool
03:50	muhoo	plus "lein deps :tree" also
03:50	devn	because I seem to hear some nagging voices that insist you use it, but they don't really tell you when and how they use it. In any event, I feel like it's kind of how Rich said something like: There wasn't any notice at the top of your file that managing memory was on you.
03:50	devn	This implicit problem with dependency resolution needs a better solution than some plugin that 1/3rd of the community knows about and uses.
03:51	muhoo	dependency resolution is a mess, in my experience, even with great tools like lein, pomegranate, and pedantic
03:51	arrdem	more than that... there needs to be a better guide to clojure at large
03:51	arrdem	I mean I never knew about lein deps :tree before this discussion
03:51	devn	muhoo: sensible defaults are better than a myriad of optional plugins
03:51	arrdem	and half the community is still writing (use)
03:52	muhoo	clojure is a young language; the docs definitely could use improvement. so could the tools.
03:52	arrdem	young being... five years I think?
03:52	devn	muhoo: im not telling you this like: "HOW DARE YOU?" -- I'm just saying I think the right thing to do would be to provide these plguins a la carte, but to also provide some kind of sane way of enabling some smart dep resolution stuff within lein
03:52	muhoo	they're moving in the right direction AFAICT. as for docs, write some up and help, maybe?
03:52	muhoo	arrdem: yes, how old is python? java? c++?
03:53	muhoo	how old is ruby? shit, how old is CL?
03:53	arrdem	ppft CL still doesn't have a real dep manager
03:53	arrdem	quicklisp has shit on lein
03:53	devn	muhoo: you're being defensive. i don't think he was trying to point his finger at the age of clojure
03:53	devn	and by telling you you're being defensive i suppose i'm being aggressive, sorry :)
03:54	muhoo	if you want better docs, i have to say, the best way to get them is to write them
03:54	ejackson	,gaurds
03:54	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: gaurds in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
03:54	ejackson	,guards
03:54	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: guards in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
03:54	ejackson	bah
03:54	arrdem	muhoo: I've only been coding for five years and I considered python to be "young and hip" when I started so it's funny to me to contemplate a five year old language as still developing as I'm thinking about doing one in a few days
03:55	devn	muhoo: easy to say in an irc channel full of people who spent the time reading source and learning things the hard way
03:55	arrdem	in fact I think Raynes is the only person here younger than me..
03:55	muhoo	man, i'm not sure what to say then. that's what i do; if the docs suck, i either just write notes for myself, or if i'm feeling community-oriented, submit a patch for someone else's docs, or write up a blog post or something.
03:56	devn	i love me some clojurian positivity, but damnit folks, we all need to just hug one another and admit that the docs suck and the traces are garbage
03:56	devn	we need to be able to be that honest with ourselves
03:56	devn	or we're in rough shape
03:56	arrdem	lol
03:56	muhoo	heh
03:57	arrdem	yeah... I guess I'll just man up and start working on Factual/fnparse
03:57	muhoo	look, i think the most helpful thing to do when docs suck, is to write better docs.
03:57	devn	muhoo: yeah dude, of course
03:57	devn	but that's like saying: hey guys, you know what would be better than nothing? something.
03:57	devn	brain melts
03:58	arrdem	devn: now now you're sounding snarky again
03:58	devn	:X
03:58	devn	good thing i didnt hit enter on the next line
03:59	arrdem	heh
03:59	muhoo	fyi, this is what my dependencies looked like for a web project in clj: https://www.refheap.com/paste/13140
03:59	devn	but no, i have to say one last thing while i'm ranting: the clojure.org site is maintained via roughly the same broke-ass method that clojure is maintained.
04:00	arrdem	devn: hah bitch about the community docs sites first
04:00	arrdem	clojuredocs.org?
04:00	arrdem	1.3.0?
04:00	arrdem	hah
04:00	devn	the community should just have tea party day where we scrape all of the content from clojure.org, DDoS clojure.org, and build something that's community owned
04:00	arrdem	the issue I have is that clojure-doc.org isn't freaking searchable
04:01	devn	Needing a CA and a special handshake to modify broken docs on clojure.org? Fuck the what?
04:01	arrdem	it even refers to clojuredocs.org for function specifics
04:01	muhoo	didn't someone create a community-oriented, more-easily-mainteined alternative clojure docs site?
04:01	arrdem	muhoo: link if you have one 'cause I've never heard of it.
04:01	devn	muhoo: indeed they did. Several people have done this now.
04:02	devn	The Lisp Curse is alive and well.
04:02	devn	everyone, quick, do your own thing!
04:02	arrdem	(inc devn)
04:02	lazybot	⇒ 5
04:02	arrdem	devn: it isn't a language, it's a tool for replicating other peoples work better!
04:02	akhudek	yes, confusingly called http://clojure-doc.org/
04:02	arrdem	-________________________-
04:03	akhudek	there is also http://clojure.github.com/ that many people don't know about
04:03	devn	"Hello gentles and ladies, I have written a series of tutorials and half of a book. I realize this exists in 17 other places, but those were outdated, so instead of contributing I chose to make a name for myself by being badass and doing All The Things."
04:04	devn	"Please, contribute to this version of the same material. I am confident with your support we can win!"
04:04	arrdem	akhudek: those are the best docs I've found even if I have to use Google to search em
04:04	devn	speaking of stupid documentation sites
04:04	muhoo	linux has been like this for like 20 years now.
04:04	devn	I have http://getclojure.org up
04:04	devn	It's kind of cool I geuss
04:04	devn	guess*
04:05	akhudek	I guess clojuredocs.org is more of an api site, clojure-doc.org seems like a good effort
04:05	devn	getclojure.org: it's like hoogle, but without any thought put into it.
04:05	arrdem	devn: bug: if I just click search I get nothing
04:05	devn	arrdem: yeah, it's way buggy and lame, but if you want examples of functions it'll give you a back rub
04:06	arrdem	akhudek: clojure-doc.org needs about 100 pages of clojure.core/* copy added tho
04:06	devn	it drives me a little bit insane that clojuredocs.org and clojure-doc.org exist simultaneously
04:06	arrdem	devn: that's awesome... it's just that the n00bs we get here don't even know how to use google to figure out what the right function is
04:07	arrdem	devn: consequently I find core api docs more valuable since they let you find the tools to solve your problem
04:07	devn	arrdem: word. i think of this as a supplement to the core docs.
04:07	devn	typing in "let" for instance: lots of cool destructuring examples hidden in there
04:07	devn	im going to add ratings so people can tag stuff as idiomatic etc/
04:08	arrdem	oh well I suppose I can start racking up pull requests committing to clojure-doc
04:08	devn	i parsed and ran all of clojuredocs.org in the sandbox that produces these examples as well
04:08	devn	so there should be lots of good examples in here
04:08	devn	just need to eek them out
04:08	arrdem	being able to up and down vote examples would be really slick..
04:08	devn	arrdem: commit to getclojure! help me add ambrose' analyze to it
04:09	devn	a sort of hoogle-esque search engine
04:09	arrdem	devn: I'll throw it on the heap with my school work and plethora of side projects
04:09	arrdem	I've kinda wanted to do a search engine for a while now...
04:09	devn	arrdem: "effective badgering" is the name of my game
04:09	arrdem	haha
04:10	devn	arrdem: I'm using elastic search on this
04:10	devn	I could use your help writing a better analyzer and tokenizer
04:10	muhoo	that's a neat site.
04:10	devn	so things like -> and what-not work without quotes maybe?
04:10	muhoo	looks like it does aprpopos or find-doc
04:10	muhoo	,(find-doc #"lazy")
04:10	clojurebot	-------------------------\nclojure.core/concat\n([] [x] [x y] [x y & zs])\n Returns a lazy seq representing the concatenation of the elements in the supplied colls.\n-------------------------\nclojure.core/cycle\n([coll])\n Returns a lazy (infinite!) sequence of repetitions of the items in coll.\n-------------------------\nclojure.core/distinct\n([coll])\n Returns a lazy sequence of the element...
04:10	arrdem	,(doc) please... at least that doesn't fuck up the formatting
04:10	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$eval37$fn--38$fn--39$fn--40$my-doc>
04:11	arrdem	clojurebot: f off
04:11	arrdem	oh that was a regex search
04:11	arrdem	cute
04:11	arrdem	(dec arrdem)
04:11	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
04:11	devn	muhoo: i wrote getclojure. it slurps up 5 years of clojure irc logs and runs all of the valid looking sexps through a sandbox
04:11	devn	it captures output and value
04:11	muhoo	,(doc find-doc)
04:11	clojurebot	"([re-string-or-pattern]); Prints documentation for any var whose documentation or name contains a match for re-string-or-pattern"
04:11	Sonderblade	arrdem: many clojure functions have generic "ungoogleable" names like get and apply, also try googling for the api for clojure maps and sets, its impossible to find a list of functions that applies to them
04:11	clojurebot	for is not used often enough.
04:11	arrdem	muhoo: that's cool, I didn't realize it
04:11	devn	getclojure has ~40k examples on it
04:11	muhoo	devn: really? very nice!
04:12	muhoo	stackoverflow is ramping up pretty well with clojure answers too.
04:12	muhoo	often my google searches take me there
04:12	devn	yeah agreed
04:12	devn	i love clojure because i can actually parse random sexps from all over the internet
04:12	devn	and run them in a semi-safe way using clojail
04:13	muhoo	there is always folklore in every language/field/technology. how to capture it is an interesting problem. i like the getclojure approach, kind of a cross between a google search and a repl
04:14	muhoo	i do really like the stackoverflow approach though.
04:15	muhoo	there's voting, and well-worded answers. yeah, if you attached voting to getclojure, it could be a good answer to the problem of "how do we capture all this folklore and have it accessbile?"
04:15	devn	muhoo: lots of ideas for getlcojure: id like to do analysis using ambrose' analyze library to provide more metadata, and then id like to provide a custom query syntax
04:16	devn	so you can do a query like this: (map * [...]) => {...}
04:16	muhoo	there is somethign that does that already
04:16	devn	err something like that
04:16	muhoo	raynes wrote it
04:16	devn	find-fn?
04:16	muhoo	yep
04:16	devn	yeah, but this is a bit different
04:16	Raynes	No he didn't.
04:16	devn	it would be a search across the examples
04:16	arrdem	devn: it'd be interesting to see this extended to libraries.. see the Lisp Curse we are overburdened with lib search & identification tools but we need a good one
04:16	devn	amalloy did it right?
04:16	Raynes	He helped.
04:16	muhoo	Raynes: i thought you did? huh, maybe it was a flatland thing
04:17	devn	arrdem: then was my next thing... codeq.
04:17	Raynes	It was someone else whose name I can't remember.
04:17	Raynes	Not really muhoo.
04:17	Raynes	The guy who wrote it doesn't hang out here anymore.
04:17	Raynes	I just turned it into a library.
04:17	arrdem	devn: you may be able to make me stick around then XP
04:17	devn	i imported all of the top-rated libraries into codeq. I'd like to try to analysis on expressions and fns in all of those libraries
04:17	Raynes	And amalloy_ helped the guy who originally wrote it.
04:17	devn	and then provide them as searchable examples as well
04:17	muhoo	Raynes: oh, it is in your github account so i thought it was yours, sorry
04:17	Raynes	muhoo: Heh, nothing to apologize for.
04:18	Raynes	I'm just making sure credit isn't given to me where it isn't deserved. <3
04:18	arrdem	devn: it'd be really interesting to provide some sort of "hotness" metric on libraries based off of clojars data
04:18	muhoo	fair enough.
04:18	devn	arrdem: oh that's coming. I have that one a local branch at the moment. Still thinking about it. Also, tomorrow my plan is to use pedestal to do the backend for getclojure.
04:19	muhoo	if you make a reducer for hi-fives you can do them in parallel
04:19	devn	getclojure is getting nasty in that it does like 4 things in one code base. it needs some splitting.
04:19	devn	lol
04:19	devn	that's how I failed out of college
04:20	devn	"nevermind class, time to write more code..."
04:21	arrdem	,(doc cos)
04:21	clojurebot	excusez-moi
04:21	devn	Math/cos
04:21	arrdem	,(doc Math/cos)
04:21	clojurebot	No entiendo
04:21	muhoo	,(Math/cos 22)
04:21	clojurebot	-0.9999608263946371
04:21	devn	that's java
04:21	devn	so doc won't work
04:21	arrdem	ah clojure.lang wrapper over java.lang
04:22	devn	just java interop
04:22	devn	,(Integer/parseInt "999")
04:22	clojurebot	999
04:22	devn	same deal
04:22	devn	i wish i had more energy, but i need to go to bed so I can make your getclojure dreams come true tomorrow.
04:23	devn	ping me if you have ideas or want to help out
04:23	devn	contributions are very welcome. refactors, code reviews, etc. all welcome
04:23	muhoo	link to the repo?
04:23	devn	i also have a sweet new comp that a designer friend did for me, so it should look 9x sexier soon
04:24	devn	https://github.com/devn/getclojure/
04:24	devn	pardon my mess. there are some gross, large commits, unused code, lots of stuff that should be extracted, so seriously, go nuts, help me out
04:25	arrdem	devn: you'll get sick of my "commit early commit often" and "branch like a motherfucker" style fast
04:25	muhoo	that's what private branches and "merge --squash" are for :-P
04:25	arrdem	muhoo speaks the truth
04:25	devn	arrdem: nah, that's how I always role on projects, just not on projects where i sometimes have work that spans multiple weeks due to my time and availability
04:26	devn	roll*
04:26	devn	im very happy to have topic branches and lots of small commits
04:26	devn	that's how it ought to be done
04:26	devn	so, no, not annoying, absolutely what i'd prefer
04:26	arrdem	devn: mmkay. no promises you are now the ... 6th? project on the stack.
04:27	arrdem	more classes and "work" whatever that is
04:27	devn	arrdem: dude, you gotta do what you gotta do, but this project is cooler than your other projects ;)
04:27	devn	lots of ideas to explore
04:27	arrdem	devn: https://github.com/arrdem/sad I beg to differ
04:28	arrdem	I friggin generate runnable code from bnf. come at me br0
04:28	devn	okay, gold star
04:28	arrdem	can haz inc plz?
04:28	devn	im suspending you for radically wonderful behavior
04:28	arrdem	XD
04:28	devn	(inc arrdem)
04:28	lazybot	⇒ 2
04:28	arrdem	w00t
04:29	devn	cool that it uses fnparse underneath
04:29	muhoo	heh, private branches and squash http://bace.s3.amazonaws.com/fucked2.jpg
04:29	devn	for big branches i like just rebuilding a release branch from merged commits
04:30	devn	err s/branches/projects
04:30	arrdem	muhoo: wat
04:30	muhoo	"ugh" is a perfectly acceptable commit comment... in a private branch
04:30	devn	haha
04:30	devn	i have like 12 commits on getclojure "Fucking Heroku..Work!"
04:30	devn	or somesuch
04:31	devn	also git commit -m ":fire"
04:31	devn	err :fire:
04:31	devn	always good for bad commits
04:31	devn	it's like cursing without the cursing
04:32	arrdem	haha where's that github stats project on profanity per language...
04:33	arrdem	profanity per time zulu could be cool too
04:33	devn	heh
04:33	devn	i bet python programmers win
04:33	devn	i don't know why, but i just feel it in my bones
04:34	muhoo	http://www.vidarholen.net/contents/wordcount/
04:34	devn	okay, bed time for real now, but muhoo and arrdem and Raynes -- getclojure, ya'all. help me make something that makes people cry tears of joy for lambda jam
04:35	arrdem	devn: later bro. I should hit the sack too...
04:35	arrdem	am I allowed to use bro in here? I can't tell and it's 4am...
04:35	devn	dont call me bro, call me sis
04:35	devn	need to avoid the brogrammer culture at all costs
04:36	arrdem	devn: thinkslate.com is down
04:36	devn	heh, oh right, i own that domain too
04:37	devn	arrdem: ill put a picture of something super cool on there
04:37	arrdem	devn: I mean I just went to stalk you and realized you had a dead link on github
04:37	devn	like i did with: http://www.letmypeoplegolf.com
04:37	arrdem	figured I'd mention it
04:37	devn	letmypeoplegolf is maybe my best work to date
04:39	devn	(hint: moses has a golf club instead of a gnarled staff)
04:39	devn	(hint 2: that's a celine dion midi)
04:39	devn	(hint 3: yes, i'm insane)
04:42	muhoo	that site is so 1995
04:42	muhoo	hmm, no 1997. animated gifs, midi music. dude, you need a hit counter!
04:42	arrdem	we're all mad here. now get to bed.
04:43	muhoo	and flashing text
04:43	arrdem	what's the tag... <marque>?
04:43	arrdem	for scrolling text?
05:09	p_l	arrdem: marquee, I think
05:09	arrdem	p_l: that's the one.
05:53	tomoj	clojure.core.rrb-vector.debug/dbg-vec is brilliant
06:00	arrdem	would any of you be interested in an ARM powered ultrabook with 8 hour or more battery life?
06:02	borkdude	arrdem who isn't interested in that
06:02	p_l	arrdem: if it had a) sensible firmware (something along the lines of OpenFirmware? EFI, I guess, could work too) b) sensible GPU c) enough cores and memory bandwidth to not annoy me with slowness ;P
06:03	arrdem	Since the RPi broke on the scene I've been trying to answer why there isn't a 15" laptop version
06:03	arrdem	and of late I've been kicking around the idea of doing a startup to sell exactly that
06:03	arrdem	I mean we're all nerds here and the business concept docs are pretty clear that I expect Linux-familiar devs to be the first buyers
06:03	p_l	arrdem: ARM, with exception of recent windows efforts, leads to very... one-off products
06:04	p_l	also, I want normal X11 support
06:04	arrdem	lol
06:05	arrdem	idk... I'm sure you and anyone else in this chan could boot whatever they wanted on it
06:05	arrdem	the real question is what constitutes a "sane defaults" environment
06:06	p_l	arrdem: "sane defaults" would be "actually having a firmware useful outside of embedded one-off products that won't crap on me just because the only thing it can do is read/write flash memory and talk over serial
06:07	p_l	so in case of, let's say, corrupted kernel (or actually wanting a simple way to change kernel) I can fix stuff without digging for serial link :)
06:07	arrdem	hum...
06:08	p_l	at least you could "make" vendors include a dump of openfirmware device tree instead of compiling in hardcoded memory addresses and parameters into kernel that fit only the device you have :>
06:08	p_l	tl;dr - first you need to actually define a platform, ARM doesn't give you one ;)
06:09	arrdem	p_l: I'm toying with the idea of simply being a raspbery pi compatable
06:10	arrdem	which is funny 'cause 30 years ago someone here started selling IBM compats
06:10	p_l	arrdem: raspberry compatible would mean "slow"
06:11	p_l	arrdem: the biggest win of RPi was the included proprietary bootloader that understood enough that it made hard to brick the device
06:12	p_l	but I don't know if they offer any features to make, for example, a kernel that will boot both on RPi and another device without adding a ton of boilerplate that basically forms another firmware layer
06:12	p_l	funnily enough, Win8 arm devices actually have that fixed, by including ACPI and EFI
06:15	arrdem	you don't say XP
06:16	p_l	arrdem: the good part was that the firmware didn't lock us out from anything
06:16	p_l	unlike on HTC :>
06:16	arrdem	I have no doubt that the same people who bought rpis would buy an rpi-based "hacktop pro" shall we call it.
06:17	arrdem	the question in my mind is can I realistically scale that product beyond the hacktop market to actuall consumers before Asus etc. crush me.
06:18	p_l	arrdem: netbooks mostly failed, but ChromeOS seems doing fine in that area
06:18	arrdem	especially given that for the first time in really a decade we're seeing platform fragmentation from Microsoft with Windows for ARM
06:18	arrdem	p_l: my sense is that netbooks failed because they do less with less.
06:18	p_l	arrdem: Microsoft, if not for some (IMO) errors is actually carefully trying to avoid that fragmentation
06:18	p_l	something that is also done by Android from start
06:19	p_l	hell, MS was mumbling about ditching x86 for a decade now
06:19	p_l	what I would like is a real ThinkPad
06:20	arrdem	I mean netbooks are physically small
06:20	arrdem	that's a bitch to type on and soforth
06:20	arrdem	which doesn't help the fact that most of them are pretty underpowered.
06:20	p_l	arrdem: it's a bitch to type on all new laptop's keyboards that I had access to, with possible exceptions of just mid-bitching in case of Dell Latitudes
06:21	arrdem	my thought is that a slightly dressed-up rpi in a 15" chassis would suck little enough to get some traction.
06:21	p_l	the pseudo-thinkpad's might be good in feedback, but have shitty layout
06:21	arrdem	then iterate on the design cleaning up internals aw you go.
06:21	arrdem	s/aw/as
06:23	arrdem	idk. we'll see if this can go anywhere. it may not be a blockbuster but there's a market for it.
06:24	arrdem	so it would seem at any rate.
06:25	p_l	arrdem: just remember that getting all the rest of the stuff than just simple electronics is the hard part here :)
06:25	p_l	and for fuck's sake, get something with performance
06:26	p_l	otherwise just driving any sensible-resolution screen will bog it down :)
06:26	arrdem	we'll see but I'm confident that the first prototype will be a literal RPi in a 15" box.
06:26	arrdem	the first production model may be better but who knows. this is all hot air atm.
06:28	arrdem	but yes. being able to see the framebuffer should not happen in this day and age.
06:30	p_l	happens more often than it used to because FreeDesktop&co broke double buffering, I heard
06:36	arrdem	gads the disk is going to be the most expensive thing in this...
06:36	arrdem	that's unexpected.
06:38	p_l	use MMC
06:38	arrdem	MMC?
06:38	clojurebot	TimMc: There is a Clojure patch on CLJ-1168 that seems like it should allow Leiningen to work with 1.5.0 and :jvm-opts ["-Dclojure.read.eval=unknown"] http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1168
06:38	p_l	arrdem: SD card :)
06:39	p_l	a lot of devices use the electrical interface but without the packaging
06:39	p_l	just grab a fast one, maybe two and put them in RAID :D
06:39	arrdem	lol that's horrific
06:39	arrdem	but probably cheaper than a 64/128gb ssd
06:39	p_l	arrdem: I've seen a laptop with vendor-made hw RAID-0 of two 128G SSDs
06:40	arrdem	p_l: if this thing rocks flash cards they'll probably be user-exchangable
06:41	arrdem	case room is the least of my worries here.
06:41	arrdem	unless I want to fight the Macbook Air for the title of "most breakable paperweight"
06:42	p_l	... lol. Apparently those two SSDs? have higher bandwidth than RasPi memory
06:42	arrdem	-____-
06:43	arrdem	so looks like the pricepoint on this guy is going to be $250-$300 with "ssd" and battery.
06:43	arrdem	case costs I have no way to estimate tho.
06:44	arrdem	oh I forgot keyboard & trackpad...
06:45	arrdem	p_l: what mobile keyboard did you like the most?
06:46	p_l	arrdem: classic ThinkPad. I have R61, still great. T6x has the same one
06:48	p_l	you're pretty much shit out of luck with non-hacker market anyway, so why not use the hackers to market your device to others :)
06:49	p_l	Unless you pack enough power and basically put something along the lines of ChromeOS on top ;)
06:51	arrdem	that's the best option I suspect.
06:52	arrdem	I'm toying with the idea of an ARM Plan 9 build and trying to make a product out of having not shitty network filesystem support combined with a rewrite of the Linux 9p fileserver and a Windows 9p fileserver client
06:52	arrdem	but that's not a 0.1.0 kind of feature.
06:52	arrdem	http://arrdem.com/blog/draft/preview/85 what do you think?
07:17	Anderkent	Anyone know how to add a dependency to runs of `lein repl` that are not within a project? For example findfn
07:33	arrdem	Anderkent: add it to your lein dev profile
07:46	hyPiRion	Anderkent: add {:user {:dependencies extra-deps}} in ~/.lein/profiles.clj
08:05	hans_	hey. I am new to clojure and also dont have any experience with .net or windows development (at least since ~10 years or so). however, as clojure works with .NET would it be possible to build windows phone apps in clojure?
08:10	corecode	hyPiRion: scheme frustrates me :/
08:29	Anderkent	hyPiRion: that only works if i run `lein repl` in a directory with project.clj
08:30	Anderkent	I want exactly the opposite
08:30	jweiss	any emacs users here ever get "Unmatched bracket or quote" trying to run vc-resolve-conflicts on a clojure file? Only workaround I can find is to turn off clojure-mode
09:06	supersym	what would be a use-case for protocols in clojure...like if you need certain Java interop over a line or? How are they much different from contracts? I'm a bit confused again :S
09:07	supersym	some of the examples could also have been done in a different way
09:08	supersym	I guess what I mean to ask is what would constitute their use
09:09	supersym	ah,.. never mind, found the answer: interop and polymorphism as I thought
09:09	supersym	><
09:11	stuartsierra	Yes, protocols are mostly about polymorphism and grouping related functions.
09:12	stuartsierra	As a side benefit, they can take advantage of fast virtual method dispatch on the JVM.
09:15	ambrosebs	stuartsierra: thanks for tools.namespace, using the dependency graph in core.typed. Reading through, it looks like adding (set! warn-on-reflection true) would cause tools.namespace not to find the ns form. Is that right?
09:15	supersym	sweet :) but a bit of an overkill perhaps for what I was exploring
09:15	stuartsierra	ambrosebs: The `ns` form must be the first non-comment form in the file, if that's what you're asking.
09:15	ambrosebs	stuartsierra: ok, yes.
09:16	stuartsierra	I suppose it could scan the entire file, looking for an `ns` form, but that seems like overkill.
09:17	ambrosebs	stuartsierra: It's hard to know where to draw the line. Adding core `set!`s before `ns` seems common though.
09:18	stuartsierra	ambrosebs: Really? I expect that to be controlled in tooling, usually.
09:21	ambrosebs	stuartsierra: I see it around the place. eg. CLJS analyzer. Not a big deal.
09:22	stuartsierra	ambrosebs: Yeah, it's there. I usually assume that it's a leftover from development. I don't think it's a good idea to call `set!` at the top of a file that's going to be released in a library.
09:22	ambrosebs	stuartsierra: btw c.t.n.find has `import` instead of `:import` in the `ns`.
09:23	stuartsierra	really? drat
09:24	stuartsierra	fixed
09:24	dnolen	stuartsierra: ambrosebs: funny enough in ClojureScript we actually use the analyzer to find ns forms in order to be more flexible.
09:25	stuartsierra	makes sense
09:27	ambrosebs	stuartsierra: A quick note on how the dependency graph handles cycles would be helpful.
09:29	stuartsierra	ambrosebs: It doesn't.
09:30	stuartsierra	Cycles aren't allowed.
09:31	naderman	Hey, without clojure.contrib can I still find "expect", "has-args", etc. from clojure.contrib.mock somewhere?
09:32	pjstadig	~contrib
09:32	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
09:32	pjstadig	naderman: if you don't find it in that list, it didn't get migrated
09:32	pjstadig	you could split it out yourself, or maybe someone already has, but i don't know
09:34	naderman	pjstadig: yeah I saw that list, it's listed but without any info of where it went
09:34	naderman	so i guess the answer is no
09:36	ambrosebs	stuartsierra: It wasn't clear at which point the input validation was performed. It's clear now it's at the graph level, perhaps consider adding a word or two in the readme?
09:37	naderman	pjstadig: is there some other way I can locally just redefine a function as a stub for a test without that?
09:37	ambrosebs	stuartsierra: "c.t.n.dependency - generic non-cyclic dependency graph data structure"
09:38	stuartsierra	o
09:38	stuartsierra	*ok
09:45	asaleh	random question ... why can't I type (my-record :my-key), while (:my-key my-record) works?
09:49	tgoossens	asaleh: because aparently you record doesn't implement the IFn interface
09:50	stuartsierra	Records are maps, but they are not (by default) functions.
09:51	tgoossens	is it possible to (for whatever reason) to do (extend yourrecord clojure.lang.Fn ...)
09:51	tgoossens	probably
09:52	stuartsierra	yes
09:52	tgoossens	great.
09:53	tgoossens	btw stuartsierra, just saw your talk about patterns this morning, was very interesting ;)
09:54	asaleh	tgoossens, thanks, because I'd like to use maps and my-record interchange-ably :)
09:55	tgoossens	asaleh: as I said, you can make it implment IFn (using extends) so that you actually don't have to care about that any more
09:55	kasterma	tgoossens: link? (to the talk)
09:56	tgoossens	kasterma:http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Clojure-Design-Patterns
09:57	kasterma	tgoossens: thx, summary certainly looks very interesting.
09:57	tgoossens	the thing with tokens was new to me and seems very useful
09:59	no7hing	is there a way to have a queue in closures stm and pop it for elements?
09:59	no7hing	s/closures/clojures/r
10:03	jweiss	is there a reason records don't implement IFn the way maps do? is there any pitfalls to just adding it to all my records?
10:04	jweiss	oh woops my colleague already asked this :)
10:04	stuartsierra	jweiss: It's a design decision, it's been discussed on the mailing list.
10:06	supersym	man my mind keeps drifting off about stuff I thought I knew but clojure throws around, or better said: how pure clojure is and how powerful the notions contained in it are
10:08	supersym	really a work of art... Rich is either a genius or has been playing with computers a bit too much :D Probably a bit of both
10:23	no7hing	@weavejester: on clj-aws-s3: is that intended behaviour that exceptions (or more specific the SocketException) in the was java sdk get caught by the lib?
10:24	weavejester	no7hing: On which function?
10:24	no7hing	put-object
10:25	weavejester	no7hing: There's no catch in put-object
10:26	john2x	hello. how would one go about doing http requests with clojurescript?
10:26	weavejester	In fact… the only catch in the whole library specifically looks for AmazonServiceExceptions with a 404 status code.
10:26	weavejester	john2x: Depends if you're talking in-browser xhrs, or node.js I guess
10:27	john2x	weavejester: in-browser xhrs. :)
10:30	no7hing	it's an internal one then before a retry, i still got the put request result instance back some times
10:30	no7hing	will look deeper
10:34	ravster	hello all
10:37	devn	heh, +1 to rich's -1 on anaphoric macros
10:55	gfredericks	haha
10:55	gfredericks	my favorite part about giving a macro talk was coming up with a list of guidelines (e.g., no anaphoric macros) and noticing that clojure.core violates basically all of them
10:56	devn	Guideline 1: We know you're clever. You don't need to prove it.
10:56	hyPiRion	gfredericks: anonymous function literals
10:57	gfredericks	hyPiRion: defmacro is an anaphoric macro
10:57	hyPiRion	gfredericks: is it?
10:57	gfredericks	&env and &form
10:57	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: env in this context
10:57	hyPiRion	oh, hah
10:57	gfredericks	#() is a reader thing, so not an anaphoric macro strictly speaking
10:58	gfredericks	but it definitely is one in spirit :)
10:58	owengalenjones	anyone here have experience with pingles clj-kafka library?
10:58	hyPiRion	gfredericks: yeah, that was the point :)
10:59	gfredericks	hyPiRion: it's even crazier given that the meaning of the symbols varies based on which ones you use
11:00	gfredericks	it would have been comically arrogant if rich had instead replied with '-2'
11:01	dnolen	gfredericks: is defmacro an anaphoric macro, or a fn def form w/ two invisible arguments?
11:01	TimMc	It's anaphoric, since the caller does not specify the bindings.
11:01	gfredericks	dnolen: I'm not sure why the latter is not an instance of the former
11:01	gfredericks	an anaphoric macro will creating locals either with let or with fn; essentially the same effect
11:02	dnolen	gfredericks: yes I was question the statement that defmacro is a macro
11:02	gfredericks	well it certainly is in a technical sense
11:02	TimMc	...
11:02	gfredericks	,(.isMacro #'defmacro)
11:02	clojurebot	true
11:03	gfredericks	not sure what other sense you might be thinking of
11:03	dnolen	gfredericks: yeah, I didn't realize that.
11:04	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Well, I think clojure.core is allowed to ignore all normal styles, really.
11:04	gfredericks	hyPiRion: agreed, it just gave me a chuckle
11:04	hyPiRion	heh
11:04	gfredericks	another guideline was no side effects
11:04	gfredericks	which gen-class violates at the very least; haven't looked for others
11:04	hyPiRion	gfredericks: defmacro, perhaps?
11:04	hyPiRion	:p
11:05	gfredericks	does it?
11:05	hyPiRion	gfredericks: it changes the environment, doesn't it?
11:05	gfredericks	_expanding_ to something that side-effects is different from the macro itself having side-effects
11:05	hyPiRion	oh, okay, true enough
11:06	gfredericks	now I'm curious what the other guidelines were
11:06	hyPiRion	That would be fun: Make a library with only macros and say it's without any side-effects
11:06	gfredericks	not deffing more than one thing was another
11:06	gfredericks	and defrecord/deftype do that
11:07	hyPiRion	gfredericks: so like, not defining a var twice you mean?
11:07	gfredericks	no
11:07	gfredericks	not defining two vars
11:07	hyPiRion	oh, eh, in a single expression I suppose
11:07	gfredericks	unless perhaps you let the user list all the names
11:07	gfredericks	it's similar to anaphoric macros
11:08	gfredericks	I can imagine a defs macro that would be acceptable
11:08	gfredericks	(defs {:keys [foo bar baz]} {:foo 12 :bar 15 :baz 20}) for example
11:08	gfredericks	which defs foo, bar, and baz
11:10	gfredericks	those were the stricter guidelines.
11:13	kauschovar	owengalenjones: a little bit, yes
11:13	kauschovar	owengalenjones: wrote a map-reduce job with it yesterday
11:16	owengalenjones	kauschovar: when I try and implement the consumer example: https://www.refheap.com/paste/13292 clojure appears to connect but then hangs indefinitely and I dont see the output, did you have any issues with getting that to work?
11:17	kauschovar	owengalenjones: i only used the simple consumer, because i needed full control over when to commit the offsets to ZK
11:18	kauschovar	owengalenjones: no experience with the zk-consumer
11:18	owengalenjones	kauschovar: gotcha, thanks anyway
11:19	kauschovar	owengalenjones: np. sorry i couldn't be more helpful
11:28	gfredericks	Pedastal In Action has an interesting acronym
11:30	TimMc	?
11:31	hyPiRion	TimMc: PI(T)A?
11:31	TimMc	hrm
11:43	gfredericks	oh
11:43	gfredericks	yeah forgot about the T
11:43	gfredericks	nevermind it would have an uninteresting acronym
11:58	borkdude	how do I write a lobos migration to alter a column from a certain table to become unique?
12:00	yacin	so: http://pastebin.com/y2FgNwYy
12:01	yacin	when i run this, only the first prn goes to blah.log
12:01	Anderkent	Is there a ring middleware I can use to set charset for text responses?
12:01	yacin	the one in the doseq goes to stdout
12:01	yacin	any ideas why?
12:02	nDuff	yacin: for the future, would you consider a pastebin without the big animated ads? We're partial to refheap.com herebouts (it being OSS and written in Clojure), but anything that doesn't offend anyone without an adblocker would be an improvement.
12:05	yacin	ah, absolutely
12:06	yacin	https://www.refheap.com/paste/13295
12:06	yacin	to get in the habit :)
12:06	yacin	ah, throwing it in a (do) fixes it
12:12	alexnixon	yacin: your 'doseq' isn't inside your 'binding' form
12:13	yacin	oh huh, didn't see that extra paren
12:13	yacin	guess i should keep paredit on in the repl
12:16	Pure-Loulou	hello room :)
12:17	supersym	ola
12:17	no7hing	am i imagining things or is there a library in clojure that asserts that two numbers are both within a certain range?
12:17	technomancy_	no7hing: > does that
12:18	no7hing	i know, but it nags me that i think theres a lib
12:22	Pure-Loulou	https://www.refheap.com/paste/13298 any help?
12:22	supersym	... contains? sigh
12:22	Pure-Loulou	i am newbie testing pmap
12:22	borkdude	is it possible to see the generated sql from lobos?
12:23	nDuff	Pure-Loulou: pmap exists mostly as a demo. It's only rarely useful in practice.
12:24	hyPiRion	Pure-Loulou: pmap is not more efficient if the function you're mapping is very fast. You may want to use reducers instead (clojure.reduce I think)
12:24	hyPiRion	But the best is to do benchmarking
12:24	Pure-Loulou	ok i will read reducers :)
12:29	borkdude	I'm trying this lobos migration, but it doesn't do anything: https://www.refheap.com/paste/13299
12:30	borkdude	it would be good if I could see the sql it generated
12:36	borkdude	I think forgetting :unique on a column is some unfortunate situation in lobos
12:36	borkdude	I'm breaking the migration history.. f#$ this ;)
12:37	weavejester	Hmm… friend logs me in okay, but then adds nothing to the session. Does that sound familiar to anyone?
12:38	no7hing	weavejester: on the assert: was not a library but a discussion on SO after all http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6344454/clojure-range-case-macro
12:38	ppppaul	in compojure i want to match a url with '.'s in it
12:38	ppppaul	how do i easily do this?
12:39	gfredericks	you can't just include dots in the route pattern?
12:39	ppppaul	it will split the matcher on '.'
12:40	gfredericks	oh hmm
12:40	hiredman	weavejester: I spent a while fighting with something similar that turned out to be the handler that was behind friend not passing the session it got through
12:40	gfredericks	so you want something like /:foo to match /one.two.three with {:foo "one.two.three"}
12:40	ppppaul	(ANY ["/:real-number" :real-number #"^-{0,1}[0-9]*\.{0,1}[0-9]+$"] [] some-handler )
12:40	ppppaul	i want that to work
12:40	hiredman	weavejester: the handler added it's own :session stuff and just tossed out friend's
12:41	ppppaul	so, sometimes there will be periods, sometimes not... i want them to be removed from the tokenizer
12:41	borkdude	can friend also handle database user authentication and if so, is there some documentation/blog post about it?
12:41	ppppaul	or, i want to be able to define my token 'splitters'
12:41	borkdude	I mean, user name/passwd from db
12:42	weavejester	hiredman: Hm, I don't think that's the case here… but it's a possibility to investigate
12:42	weavejester	ppppaul: Why not make a part of the pattern optional?
12:42	ppppaul	hiredman, friend is hard to use
12:42	hiredman	shrug
12:42	ppppaul	weavejester, ?
12:42	hiredman	works for me (now)
12:43	weavejester	ppppaul: Hm, you're also using {0,1} which is odd. That's typically what ? is for.
12:43	ppppaul	my regex-fu is weak
12:44	weavejester	ppppaul: Try: #"-?\d*(?:\.\d+)?"
12:44	ppppaul	i have a lot of tests against these regexs, so i'm confident about them
12:44	ppppaul	i made them so they would be easy to use/port to other engines
12:44	hiredman	to be fair I haven't tried oauth or whatever else with friend
12:45	ppppaul	oauth is a farce
12:45	technomancy_	oauth is fantastic if you can get away with outsourcing logins
12:45	weavejester	ppppaul: The ^ and $ are probably wrong too, because you don't want to match the beginning and end of the URI.
12:45	technomancy_	10LOC to implement oauth in https://syme.herokuapp.com by delegating to GitHub <3
12:45	ppppaul	i'm not matching the url
12:46	ppppaul	i'm matching a string that has come out of the tokenizer
12:46	ppppaul	compojures tokenize splits on '/' and '.'
12:46	ppppaul	i would like to remove the '.' for one of my routes
12:46	weavejester	ppppaul: No it doesn't :)
12:46	ppppaul	it doesn't?
12:46	hiredman	technomancy_: yeah, my pie in the sky place to go with this project would need to do something like that
12:47	ppppaul	i have used it like such, though
12:47	technomancy_	hiredman: what's the project?
12:47	weavejester	Nope, not in the sense you're thinking, at least.
12:47	ppppaul	i'll run some tests and see what happens
12:47	hiredman	technomancy_: my ideapad thing, the urls with clojurescript in an editor + an svg graphic on the side
12:48	weavejester	ppppaul: You have a route like: ["/:real-number" :real-number #"^-{0,1}[0-9]*\.{0,1}[0-9]+$"] correct?
12:48	technomancy_	hiredman: plz to steal if desired: https://github.com/technomancy/syme/blob/master/src/syme/web.clj#L94
12:48	ppppaul	yes weavejester
12:48	hiredman	technomancy_: sure, I just have to work out how I want it to work
12:48	weavejester	ppppaul: So that's going to be converted into something like: {:pattern #"/(^-{0,1}[0-9]*\.{0,1}[0-9]+$)" :params [:real-number]}
12:49	weavejester	And the resulting regex doesn't really make sense.
12:49	ppppaul	...
12:49	hiredman	I think I need some kind of delegration thing, maybe web intents, I am not sure oauth would actually play in to that
12:49	weavejester	You want a regex like: #"-?\d+(?:\.\d+)?"
12:50	weavejester	Or #"-?\d*(?:\.\d+)?" rather
12:50	ppppaul	can you give me a failing example?
12:50	weavejester	ppppaul: Something the regex won't match?
12:50	ppppaul	yeah, but something that i would expect it to match on
12:51	hiredman	basically I'd like to be able to let people sign in and then authorize the ideapad service to use some other clojurescipt compilation service
12:51	weavejester	ppppaul: "1f", "1.", "+1"
12:51	ppppaul	i have a lot of tests, so i want to add to them and then change my matcher
12:52	ppppaul	i tested against those
12:52	weavejester	ppppaul: The regex is essentially: optional "-", zero or more digits, optional (non-matching group: "." one or more digits)
12:52	weavejester	ppppaul: Are you testing the regex, or the route?
12:52	ppppaul	the regex
12:53	weavejester	,(re-matches #"/(^-{0,1}[0-9]*\.{0,1}[0-9]+$)" "/1.0")
12:53	clojurebot	nil
12:54	ppppaul	without the '/'
12:54	weavejester	,(re-matches #"/(^-?\d*(?:\.\d+)?)" "/1.0")
12:54	clojurebot	nil
12:54	weavejester	,(re-matches #"/(-?\d*(?:\.\d+)?)" "/1.0")
12:54	clojurebot	["/1.0" "1.0"]
12:54	ppppaul	,(re-matches #"(^-?\d*(?:\.\d+)?)" "1.0")
12:54	weavejester	There we go
12:54	clojurebot	["1.0" "1.0"]
12:55	jcromartie	http://www.techempower.com/blog/2013/04/05/frameworks-round-2/
12:55	weavejester	ppppaul: Your route adds the "/" in at the beginning
12:55	weavejester	A more simple example might show it better:
12:55	jcromartie	compojure is lagging behind raw servlets, but beats the pants off most other dynamic language web libraries
12:56	weavejester	["/:foo" :foo #"[0-9]+"] => #"/([0-9]+)
12:56	weavejester	jcromartie: It's not surprising. For the tests they ran Ring on top of Java servlets, so it was never going to be faster.
12:57	technomancy_	wow, yesod only barely beats rack?
12:59	ppppaul	weavejester, my real code (ANY ["/poi/:latitude/:longitude/with-radius/:radius" ...
13:00	ppppaul	i have never had to include "/" in my regex for anything i've done with compojure param guards
13:00	weavejester	ppppaul: When you specify a custom regex, the routing library Compojure uses (Clout) just substitutes the custom regex into the regex it builds for the route.
13:00	kauschovar	technomancy_: that surprises me, because yesod advertises itself as being very fast
13:00	ppppaul	yesod?
13:00	weavejester	ppppaul: No, you don't include the "/". The end regex includes the "/" because that's what you have in your route.
13:01	ppppaul	hmm
13:01	kauschovar	ppppaul: yesod is a Haskel web framework
13:01	kauschovar	*Haskell
13:01	weavejester	So if your route is ["/foo/bar/:baz" :baz #"."] then the regex generated is: #"/foo/bar/(.)"
13:03	jcromartie	weavejester: do you think compojure could go faster? I think those results are fine BTW… not too shabby considering it beats the pants off of everything else that's popular right now
13:04	weavejester	jcromartie: Oh definitely. Java servlets are basically doing a bunch of work that Ring never uses.
13:04	weavejester	jcromartie: Cut out the middle man and there's a lot of stuff you wouldn't need to do.
13:05	ppppaul	weavejester, oh my
13:05	technomancy_	I'd rather see effort going to other things personally
13:05	weavejester	technomancy: Yeah, I'm not in a hurry to write my own HTTP server :)
13:05	gfredericks	compojure-in-compojure
13:06	weavejester	Although… there must be some Java servers that expose a lower interface.
13:08	weavejester	Yeah, it looks like Netty allows you to get the raw request, before cookies and sessions and parameters are parsed.
13:08	weavejester	In theory an adapter written against raw netty would be pretty quick.
13:08	supersym	ah
13:09	ppppaul	cake looks like crap
13:09	no7hing	aloha could probably help there
13:09	mthvedt	it amazes me how slow many old web frameworks are
13:09	mthvedt	hosting costs must have been through the roof back then
13:10	jcromartie	compojure on Netty?
13:10	no7hing	or crowds just way smaller ;)
13:10	jcromartie	aleph does channels on Netty right?
13:10	weavejester	There's a netty adapter that seems to do without the servlet compatibility layer: https://github.com/datskos/ring-netty-adapter
13:10	no7hing	yes
13:10	weavejester	Yeah, but I'm not sure how quick channels are
13:10	jcromartie	channels are a bit of overhead
13:10	no7hing	they have their cost
13:10	jcromartie	better for complex dataflows than performance purposes, but it does gain some by using Netty
13:11	weavejester	Well, I assume in this case we're talking theoretical peak performance, rather than anything you'd actually use in the vast majority of cases.
13:12	jcromartie	yeah
13:12	jcromartie	anyway, Compojure does the job :)
13:12	jcromartie	you should be proud to see it near the top of the list
13:13	supersym	I should be really diving into Compojure soon then :)
13:13	supersym	thats what ppl are using in production mostly?
13:14	weavejester	supersym: As far as I'm aware.
13:16	supersym	cool
13:17	ppppaul	ring + compojure + something else supersym
13:17	ppppaul	i use liberator atm, with compojure for route matching
13:20	supersym	alright.. I'm just asking because in a few months I'll need to be making my money and most work is in web dev anyway... But I went through Node.js ecosystem quite fast and somehow ended up here :)
13:21	supersym	a lot will be frontend work with semantics/seo so hiccup/enlive should do most of the time
13:22	supersym	I guess hiccup doesn't have functions for web 2.0 vocabularies yet? :P
13:25	ppppaul	node.js is hell
13:25	ppppaul	hiccup is hell
13:26	ppppaul	hell is hell
13:26	n_b	ppppaul: you mean node.js(funtion(res) { res.is(function(res) { return res.hell;} ))))
13:27	Foxboron	Say i wanna write a Scheme interp in Clojure. What parsing libs should i use? Been sniffing on Parsatron, but not sure if there are better options.
13:33	billy_beanie	im using println to print stuff but when i change it to print nothing comes out, why?
13:34	technomancy_	Foxboron: s-expressions are so easy to parse that using a library could be considered overkill
13:35	Foxboron	technomancy_, well. Considering i wanna learn how to parse other stuff aswell, i think using libraries are just fine.
13:35	technomancy_	ah, well that's different =)
13:35	timsgardner	dnolen: Doing some js interop stuff that would benefit from pattern matching… would you say the clojurescript version of core.match is production-ready, for simple stuff?
13:35	Foxboron	Scheme is just because...well...1) its lisp. 2) look at 1
13:36	technomancy_	personally I would bootstrap off clojure.core/read and circle back to writing your own reader once you got the fun stuff working
13:36	Foxboron	technomancy_: i lack the general logic thinking of how to even contrsuct a parser and interp. So gotta start somewhere
13:37	supersym	pppaul: might be true but I cared for RAD times a lot and that helped a lot using coffee/stylus/jade/markdown because I work with developers and customers who are very picky about their front-ends :P
13:38	supersym	and I can't spend ages hand-writing everything so character-cutting was/is very important
13:39	supersym	using clojure I'd get extremely powerful functions and sanity back, and parens..which is ok :P
13:40	billy_beanie	im using println to print stuff but when i change it to print nothing comes out, why?
13:41	TimMc	billy_beanie: You may need to flush the output stream.
13:41	TimMc	&(use 'clojure.repl)
13:41	lazybot	⇒ nil
13:41	TimMc	&(apropos "flush")
13:41	lazybot	⇒ (flush-on-newline flush)
13:43	billy_beanie	okay let me try calling flush after my prints
13:43	billy_beanie	ah there we go
13:43	billy_beanie	thanks TimMc
13:43	billy_beanie	why do i have to do that?
13:45	dnolen	timsgardner: yes it works for simple stuff as far as I know. A few people use it.
13:47	borkdude	is this a valid approach in korma? https://www.refheap.com/paste/13302
13:48	borkdude	it works, but I want to know if it 'the korma way'
14:02	nz	borkdude: seems ok to me
14:05	devn	Does anyone know if there's a library in Clojure that deals with transfinite numbers?
14:05	timsgardner	dnolen: cool, thanks
14:06	devn	My coworker is interested in building a library and I'm trying to steer him in the right direction.
14:07	stuartsierra	devn: I'm curious: what's a use case for transfinite numbers in a program?
14:11	devn	stuartsierra: i'm typing for him: He doesn't really know yet. He's short answer was: "Because you can." ;) -- That being said, he thinks there might be some implications for scheduling.
14:12	devn	s/He's/his/
14:12	stuartsierra	Interesting.
14:13	stuartsierra	Well, I hope he has fun with it. :)
14:15	jonasen	dnolen: the following suprised me: (run* [q] (fresh [a] (membero a [:foo :bar]) (== q :baz))) ;; => (:baz :baz)
14:15	jonasen	dnolen: but it works the same way in minikanren-simple so I guess it's known behaviour?
14:16	stuartsierra	Wow, I think I understood that.
14:16	stuartsierra	It's backtracking: there's one path for each possible binding of `a`.
14:17	dnolen	jonasen: expected behavior for sure.
14:18	jonasen	dnolen: ok
14:19	dnolen	jonasen: just because the user doesn't include some variable in the result doesn't mean we can throw away answers.
14:21	jonasen	dnolen: that makes sense. If I want to know the number of answers for a run* I can always do (distinct (run* ...)) so it should not be problematic
14:27	gilbertw1	Anyone using Sublime Text 2 to develop Clojure?.....if so, is there any syntax highlighting files available that are better than the one that it ships with?
14:29	timsgardner	devn: that's kind of a teaser… what scheduling implications might there be?
14:29	timsgardner	devn: I see there's a transfinite type class for Haskell
14:35	devn	timsgardner: heh, I really can't speak to that. He mentioned something about long-running processes and determining the order that certain operations should execute. He also alluded to von Neumann and how he studied the ordinals and transfinite numbers.
14:36	arkh	is there a more succinct way to get at a value matched in a regular expression than: (second (apply seq (re-seq #"foo=(\d+)" "this is foo=10")))
14:37	n_b	,(second (re-seq #"foo=(\d+)" "this is foo=10"))
14:37	clojurebot	nil
14:37	devn	timsgardner: thanks for the heads up on the transfinite type class
14:38	devn	timsgardner: I'd be happy to hook you up with him if you guys want to discuss. I think he's looking for someone more mathy than me to talk about this with. :)
14:39	timsgardner	devn: yah. It's kind of interesting, looks like the Haskell motivation was to avoid some awkwardnesses associated with floating point conversion
14:40	n_b	arkh: It's because you're getting each match group, not each match
14:41	arkh	,(second (apply seq (re-seq #"foo=(\d+)" "this is foo=10")))
14:41	clojurebot	"10"
14:41	n_b	see ##(doc re-groups)
14:41	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/re-groups ([m]) Returns the groups from the most recent match/find. If there are no nested groups, returns a string of the entire match. If there are nested groups, returns a vector of the groups, the first element being the entire match. nil
14:42	timsgardner	devn: I'm rather rusty on my set theory these days, I'm afraid. But I like the idea of someone finding a use for transfinite arithmetic etc, since it's often used as an example of pointless math
14:42	arkh	n_b: that's cool - it just seems like a person has to go through some acrobatics to do something (imho) that's simle
14:42	arkh	*simple
14:43	arkh	even more so to, say, add a series of matches:
14:43	arkh	,(+ 1 (Integer/parseInt (second (apply seq (re-seq #"foo=(\d+)" "this is foo=10")))))
14:43	clojurebot	11
14:43	devn	timsgardner: can i private message you?
14:44	timsgardner	devn: think so :)
14:44	n_b	arkh: You could just do (map last (re-seq pattern s))
14:45	n_b	and I'd rewrite that adding example using a threading macro, since it's really piping data
14:45	amalloy	arkh: (apply seq x)? isn't that just (first x), except that it fails unless x is a seq of seqs?
14:46	n_b	arkh: Yes.
14:46	n_b	woops, meant amalloy *
14:47	arkh	amalloy: I was using (first x) initally but it would select the whole vector returned by re-seq
14:48	arkh	n_b: (map last ... ) might be nice but it returns a list instead of the inner value
14:49	arkh	,(map last (re-seq #"foo=(\d+)" "this is foo=10"))
14:49	clojurebot	("10")
14:49	n_b	arkh: I'm aware, but I'm assuming you want this to work for a non-contrived example where there might be multiple matches
14:50	arkh	n_b: with the data I'm using there should be either a single match or non match ... the initial group of code I'm using fails on nil
14:51	n_b	arkh: then use (comp second first) (re-seq...))
14:52	n_b	arkh: or actually, (comp peek first) will be (imperceptibly) faster
14:53	n_b	and if it fails on nil, then you might want to have an (if-let) as well
14:54	arkh	n_b: processing ... : )
14:55	ztellman	jcromartie: a little late to the conversation, but aleph has > 90% of the raw performance of a basic netty adapter
14:56	ztellman	closer to 95%, looking at the benchmarks again
14:56	n_b	arkh: e.g. user=> (if-let [res ((comp peek first) (re-seq #"foo=(\d+)" "this is foo=10"))] #_=> (-> res Integer/parseInt inc) #_=> nil)
14:56	ztellman	and that's not "channel overhead", that's adding support for pipelined requests, etc.
14:57	arkh	n_b: sorry, I'm not following the usefulness of (comp second first) or (comp peek first) in this case
14:58	n_b	arkh: You want the last result (the matched group) of the first result returned by re-seq, no? It's simply an easier way of writing (peek (first (re-seq...))
14:58	n_b	arkh: you might be better off with re-find though
14:59	n_b	,(re-find #"foo=(\d+)" "this is foo=10")
14:59	clojurebot	["foo=10" "10"]
14:59	n_b	,(re-find #"foo=(\d+)" "this is foo≠10")
14:59	clojurebot	nil
15:01	arkh	n_b: that gets around the seq related issues, so that's cool
15:02	n_b	arkh: So what's the next problem? :)
15:02	arkh	somewhat related, is there a shorthand for filtering nils? Something better than (filter #(not (nil? %)) ... )
15:02	arkh	n_b: ; )
15:03	arkh	e.g. (fnil) replaces a nil with a default, I'm just looking to filter
15:03	fbernier	arkh: remove perhaps
15:04	n_b	arkh: ##(remove nil? [1 nil 2 nil 3])
15:04	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3)
15:04	fbernier	(remove nil? ...)
15:04	n_b	or (filter identity lst)
15:04	n_b	oh, that'll remove falses
15:05	fbernier	How nice it feels to be a clojure/lisp noob and to know the answer to a question ...
15:05	arkh	remove looks good - thank you
15:05	fbernier	:)
15:05	borkdude	dnolen where can I find some benchmark data on clojurescript?
15:05	arkh	fbernier: :D
15:06	n_b	fbernier: The questions in here are either solved by those with extensive Clojure & JVM experience or easily done by anyone who has memorized the clj cheatsheet :D
15:07	n_b	arkh: If you haven't, I'd recommend running through some of the 4clojure problems up to 70-80. It'll teach you lots of tricks about working with seqs and lots about the core namespace
15:08	arkh	n_b: that's a good call ... I need some rounding out : ) Thanks for your help
15:09	n_b	arkh: My pleasure! It's good to be the one answering a question for once :)
15:09	lypanov	I enjoyed projecteuler a lot just for getting my head about lisp syntax.
15:09	lypanov	around*
15:09	n_b	Hopefully I haven't lead you astray somehow :P
15:10	n_b	JoC after Clojure Programming IMO
15:10	lypanov	n_b: agreed.
15:10	n_b	I started with JoC, felt totally lost, and then it completely clicked after doing some little projects, 4clojure, and reading through Clojure Programming
15:11	n_b	Super excited for the 2nd edition to come out. Have a few places in my app where core.logic is going to be very handy
15:11	lypanov	I do things backwards. So I did projecteuler. Then put clojurescript code into production. And then read JoC.
15:11	lypanov	(didn't read Clojure Programming but I've heard great things)
15:12	mthvedt	is there a version of lazy test that works with the latest leiningen?
15:12	dnolen	borkdude: what kind of benchmark data?
15:12	borkdude	dnolen the kind you showed here some time, I vaguely remember it
15:12	lypanov	dnolen: fwiw just migrating our app from js+knockout.js to javelin+cljs.
15:13	lypanov	dnolen: cljs completely changes my motivational level. utter joy.
15:14	dnolen	borkdude: I just made various ones by hand and put them on jsperf.com
15:14	n_b	lypanov: Are you using EDN as well?
15:14	dnolen	borkdude: there's also http://www.50ply.com/cljs-bench/
15:14	lypanov	n_b: no no clojure. just clojurescript.
15:14	lypanov	hosting story too complex for now.
15:14	borkdude	dnolen ok tnx
15:15	n_b	I'm tempted to use Clojure from front to back for my projects, but too worried about others being able to extend it once I've graduated
15:15	lypanov	n_b: using the cute jayq ajax let macros.
15:15	lypanov	n_b: honestly if you're using clojure on the backend you're already at such a level that you shouldn't worry.
15:16	AimHere	n_b, make your project good enough that it's bait for proto-Clojurists
15:16	lypanov	n_b: only complex part of cljs for me has been advanced builds mixed with js.
15:16	dnolen	borkdude: though that last link may be out of date.
15:16	dnolen	lypanov: sweet!
15:17	n_b	AimHere: That's the plan ;)
15:18	n_b	Working on quantitative literature research, so all the flexibility of LISP+JVM interop is a match made in heaven.
15:19	octagon	hi, how can i do pr-str on strings that contain escape codes? ex: (pr-str "\033[0m")
15:21	octagon	i.e. (count (pr-str "\033[0m")) should return 9, but it actually returns 6
15:24	joegallo	why should it return 9?
15:24	octagon	joegallo: oh wait, i see what you mean
15:27	arkh	octagon: do you meant to use "\[\033[0m\]" instead?
15:27	arkh	*mean
15:28	octagon	arkh: yeah i dodn't think that \033 was a single character, so i guess clj is right :)
15:31	SegFaultAX	octagon: Why wouldn't that be a single character?
15:31	octagon	SegFaultAX: no, it would. i was just confused
15:32	SegFaultAX	octagon: Ah.
15:32	fbernier	n_b: im at 71 problem solved on 4clojure ... probably why I could answer the question earlier ;)
15:34	SegFaultAX	Speaking of 4clojure, it just crashed.
15:40	jcromartie	ack! the code about halfway down this page is painfully weird http://java.dzone.com/articles/promises-and-futures-clojure
15:57	ebaxt_	I've ported most of rack-rewrite, but I can't decide if I should bother with send_file/x_send_file rules. Need it? https://github.com/ebaxt/ring-rewrite/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/jtrupiano/rack-rewrite#send_file-x_send_file
16:02	mpenet	jcromartie: most of the pain points or missing features he mentions are covered by libraries such as lamina, or cljque (this one seems to be a playground for what could be improved core promises/futures I think)
16:02	jcromartie	not to mention an async callback in a future is not hard at all
16:02	jcromartie	(future (do-something) (callback))
16:02	mpenet	yeah...
16:03	stuartsierra	mpenet: Yes, cljque is an experiment.
16:03	mpenet	on a promise tho it's not possible at the moment, you have to do it manually as well
16:03	mpenet	stuartsierra: very cool stuff still, I like how it's taking shape
16:03	stuartsierra	thanks
16:04	SegFaultAX	stuartsierra: Is there something like it stable and ready for usage?
16:04	stuartsierra	no
16:05	mpenet	SegFaultAX: lamina is a bit similar in some way, but the vocabulary and underlying concepts are a bit different
16:06	stuartsierra	SegFaultAX: You're welcome to use it, of course, but I can't make any guarantees.
16:06	SegFaultAX	mpenet: I'm not married to the PromisesA protocol, but something along those lines would be really useful.
16:07	mpenet	SegFaultAX: lamina result-channels are close to promises
16:07	mpenet	but tbh I would prefer something like cljque in core
16:08	mpenet	if it ever gets aproved/improved
16:09	SegFaultAX	mpenet: I don't think it needs to be in core.
16:10	stuartsierra	Promises are much more useful if everybody agrees on the same implementation.
16:10	mpenet	true, but there are discussion about improving both future and promises
16:10	SegFaultAX	It can be under the Clojure project umbrella like core.logic and core.match, but I don't really care if it's part of clojure.core proper.
16:10	mpenet	right
16:11	rabbit_airstrike	anyone have any up-to-date resources on using ritz?
16:12	mpenet	either way as stuartsierra said, having "one way to do it" would probably be better for everybody.
16:12	stuartsierra	It's unfortunate that the JDK doesn't include an interface for this, so there are multiple competing implementations: Guava, Scala, etc.
16:13	mpenet	yes :/
16:14	SegFaultAX	stuartsierra: What, a PromisesA implementation?
16:15	stuartsierra	SegFaultAX: Not necessarily PromisesA, but a simple interface for "Callback when a Future is completed."
16:15	stuartsierra	With that, we'd have a chance of making interoperable implementations.
16:15	SegFaultAX	Android has something like it with its AsyncTask implementation, I think.
16:16	stuartsierra	Yeah, lots of libraries / frameworks have something like it. But there's no common interface for them to standardize on.
16:16	SegFaultAX	They don't really compose in any meaningful way, though.
16:17	SegFaultAX	stuartsierra: Is this something you're still actively investigating?
16:17	stuartsierra	sort of
16:18	jeremyheiler	JDK8 will have Promise called CompletableFuture, I think.
16:19	stuartsierra	Yeah, Java 8 is going to solve all problems ever. ;)
16:20	SegFaultAX	Is there already an established road map for Java 9?
16:20	jeremyheiler	haha
16:21	stuartsierra	Java 9 will be so advanced it will actually write your code for you. :P
16:21	jeremyheiler	It's about damn time!
16:23	antares_	SegFaultAX: there are some JEPs for JDK 9 already :)
16:23	antares_	SegFaultAX: mostly around the VM, though, those things take a long time to implement
16:23	technomancy_	"Java 1 was of the 90's. Java 5 generics came from the 70's. Java 8 lambdas come from the 40's. Java 20 will have a steam regulator."
16:24	technomancy_	https://mobile.twitter.com/jamesiry/status/250248275406491648?p=v
16:24	stuartsierra	:)
16:32	konr	can't bind ♥ in a let in cljs :(
16:36	borkdude	hath korma something to help me not to manually having to trim things?
17:18	borkdude	hmm, I put a dependency from webjars in leiningen
17:18	borkdude	but the resources from it don't seem to be available in my ring app
17:20	borkdude	ah got it (wrap-resource "/META-INF/resources")
17:32	borkdude	hmm, now that I added (resource/wrap-resource "/META-INF/resources") to my handler middlewares, the route "/" is returning an empty page
17:37	borkdude	any idea why this happens? https://www.refheap.com/paste/13311
17:47	borkdude	when I remove line 18 the "/" page gets served normally
17:47	borkdude	but then I don't get the webjars resources
17:57	arrdem	what's the replacement for noir.statuses?
18:55	devn	Hmm, does anyone here use ritz and set breakpoints?
18:55	tieTYT	did there used to be a clojure blip.tv?
18:55	devn	tieTYT: yes
18:55	tieTYT	what happened?
18:55	devn	those videos were moved to youtube i believe
18:56	tieTYT	http://www.youtube.com/user/ClojureTV ?
18:56	antares_	tieTYT: yes
18:56	tieTYT	cool
21:08	mmitchell	anyone know of a good mocking library, besides midje? I found the old contrib mock lib, but it doesn't look like it's being maintained anymore.
22:32	tieTYT2	does clojure have something like haskell's zip?
22:33	jeremyheiler	~zip
22:33	clojurebot	zip is not necessary in clojure, because map can walk over multiple sequences, acting as a zipWith. For example, (map list '(1 2 3) '(a b c)) yields ((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))
22:33	jeremyheiler	:-)
22:33	tieTYT2	oh right
22:33	tieTYT2	i forgot about that
22:33	tieTYT2	thanks
22:33	jeremyheiler	np!
22:33	tieTYT2	so how could I use map that way, but pass each of these into a function so that 1 is the first param and \a is the second?
22:34	tieTYT2	would that just be (map my-function l1 l2)?
22:35	jeremyheiler	That's exactly what the example shows.
22:35	tieTYT2	ok cool
22:35	tieTYT2	thanks
22:35	jeremyheiler	Oh wait, nevermind.
22:35	jeremyheiler	Gah, nevermind on that nevermind.
22:35	tieTYT2	:)
22:37	jasonjckn	dnolen: is core logic smart about <? I know you can 'project' into clojure but that's not very efficient as it has to execute the clojure function for each element in the set that could be matched
22:38	jasonjckn	dnolen: is project the only supported way to get inequality ops
22:43	dnolen	jasonjckn: you don't need project for < anymore, you have FD stuff now
22:43	jasonjckn	"FD" stands for?
22:43	dnolen	finite domain
22:44	dnolen	jasonjckn: constraint solving over natural numbers
22:44	jasonjckn	k, I used core.logic extensively 1 year ago, sounds like there's some new features
22:44	dnolen	jasonjckn: yeah quite a few new things.
22:44	jasonjckn	is there a description of all the new stuff?
22:44	jasonjckn	and/or tutorial
22:45	dnolen	(run* [x y] (fd/in x y (interval 1 10)) (fd/< x y)), works
22:45	dnolen	jasonjckn: no not much in way of a tutorial for the news things yet.
22:46	jasonjckn	k
22:46	jasonjckn	i'll try to figure it out
22:47	dnolen	jasonjckn: I think's some basic description in the wiki.
22:47	jasonjckn	dnolen: couldn't you write a thin clojure wrapper around mozart/oz ?
22:47	jasonjckn	dnolen: is the tradeoff just the IPC?
22:48	jasonjckn	i guess lack of user defined functions is a big one
22:48	dnolen	jasonjckn: it worth considering hooking into external solvers yes, though Mozart/OZ is quite a behind stuff like GeCode or JaCoP
22:48	dnolen	jasonjckn: yes, I think it would just be less flexible. gotta run.
22:49	jasonjckn	kk seeya