#clojure – 2013-04-01

2013-04-01

00:07	technomancy	arg... four years of doing clojure and still get bit by that stupid stupid dashes-to-underscores nonsense
00:08	technomancy	the things we put up with for no good reason =\
00:30	callenbot	technomancy: worth it to be using a language that isn't spoiled-milk stupid.
00:31	technomancy	callenbot: sure, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be embarrassed when it is stupid
00:31	callenbot	Of course.
00:32	callenbot	technomancy: honestly I'm just grateful for the graceful nil handling. I could do without the copious if-statements I have to write in Python.
00:32	technomancy	"graceful" nil handling?
00:32	technomancy	spoken like someone who hasn't used an HM type system? =)
00:32	callenbot	technomancy: I have, but you know what I mean.
00:33	callenbot	technomancy: compared with Python and Go which just let your shit fall apart every time...
00:33	MikeSeth	goddamn you, just by lurking in here I learn something new
00:33	technomancy	I dunno; clojure's handling of nil is also fairly embarrassing, but at least in this case we can blame the JVM
00:33	callenbot	bladeeblah I know Maybe/Either is better but it's still an improvement.
00:34	callenbot	technomancy: if you really cared you'd use algo.monad
00:34	technomancy	I haven't written any nontrivial python... clojure's nil handling seems the same as ruby's
00:34	callenbot	technomancy: but deep down, you know that Haskell and Scala's type systems are the Gentoo Ricers of the modern age.
00:34	technomancy	callenbot: if I really cared I'd fork core.typed
00:34	callenbot	technomancy: you want a typed lisp?
00:34	technomancy	callenbot: no, I just want NPEs to go away
00:35	technomancy	that accounts for 70-80% of type errors
00:35	callenbot	technomancy: this is why I implemented my own func call chain + maybe monad wrappers in python
00:35	callenbot	NoneType errors were driving me up a wall.
00:35	callenbot	I don't really need it in Clojure though, the Ruby-esque nil handling is (usually) enough for me.
00:36	callenbot	Perhaps partly because I don't chuck shit at JVM libraries very often.
00:36	callenbot	not directly, anyway.
00:37	callenbot	technomancy: the unspoken assertion here is that one advantage Ruby has on Python is nil handling.
00:38	callenbot	short-circuiting and kicking nils through the call chain is my preferred way of working.
00:38	technomancy	because nil can receive certain method calls?
00:38	technomancy	like .nil?
00:40	callenbot	technomancy: no, more monadically in that functions can receive a nil argument and just spit back out
00:40	callenbot	and a monadic wrapper can short-circuit before it gets to that if you have that available
00:40	callenbot	but if you don't, the behavior is baked in.
00:41	callenbot	technomancy: .nil? is pretty trivial and doesn't really fix anything, Python's problem wasn't that None makes every action except comparison fail, it was that some fairly common sense operations wouldn't just spit the None back out like Clojure tends to in similar circumstances.
00:42	callenbot	technomancy: if Haskell and Scala type systems are the cost of wrapping and compile-time checking for nils properly, then I'd rather stay on the other side of the fence.
00:42	callenbot	I like HM, but I don't like actually being forced to interact with the practical products of it (currently)
00:42	technomancy	eh; from what I gather scala doesn't really prevent NPEs properly anyway
00:43	technomancy	OCaml does though, without all the hoops of Haskell
00:43	callenbot	their Option handles it.
00:43	technomancy	right, but only if you explicitly opt-in
00:43	callenbot	technomancy: gods, don't remind me of OCaml. That's a heartache like Common Lisp.
00:43	MikeSeth	holywar commenceth
00:43	technomancy	=\
00:43	callenbot	technomancy: I mean heartache like I wish it was more successful.
00:43	callenbot	yearning :P
00:43	technomancy	yep, I hear you there
00:44	technomancy	I had such a great time with the language and such a wretched time with the libraries/tooling
00:44	callenbot	MikeSeth: 'fraid not.
00:44	callenbot	technomancy: well the system type sizes thing was annoying.
00:44	callenbot	and the 31-bit integers
00:44	callenbot	the tagging
00:44	technomancy	oh, for numerics?
00:45	callenbot	yeah it was janky.
00:45	callenbot	technomancy: that there are multiple stdlib alternatives is disconcerting as well.
00:45	technomancy	I have a hard time getting bothered by numerics that are less horrible than JS I guess
00:45	callenbot	true.
00:45	technomancy	eh; are you sure you're not thinking of D?
00:46	callenbot	no I'm thinking of Jane Street + the batteries included ecosystem
00:46	callenbot	it's really ghetto.
00:46	callenbot	although D is too.
00:46	technomancy	oh, sure; it's a bit different
00:46	technomancy	I mean with D there are literally two libraries claiming to be "the standard library" right?
00:46	callenbot	I don't know if I'd put it like that.
00:46	callenbot	it's more that there's an old and a new
00:47	callenbot	phobos was the new one i think?
00:47	technomancy	I thought it was one with a good license and one that was "official"
00:47	callenbot	oh, yeah.
00:47	callenbot	I mean there's the GNU D compiler.
00:48	callenbot	But really, if you want something with strict semantics and HM like Ocaml, what's your practical options?
00:48	technomancy	jane street seemed like just a bunch of guys tired of the slow evolution of the language
00:48	technomancy	which I can empathise with
00:48	callenbot	of course, they had work to do.
00:48	callenbot	unlike the french.
00:49	callenbot	from the OCaml wiki page: "Influenced F#, Scala, ATS, Opa, Rust" - frick.
00:49	callenbot	A list best summarized as: Microsoft, Insane, More insane, Weird and misguided, 20% done afters of dev.
00:49	callenbot	after years*
00:50	technomancy	Opa =(
00:50	technomancy	so much promise, and then they careened off the deep end
00:52	callenbot	technomancy: I think they saw Meteor and Derby and said, "WE SHOULD DO THAT"
00:52	technomancy	"you know how we could get funding or something? JAVASCIRPT"
00:53	callenbot	they weren't wrong.
00:53	technomancy	sad but true
00:53	callenbot	Rust is disturbingly gnarly though.
00:53	technomancy	statements, right?
00:53	callenbot	I'd call that one of the lesser sins.
00:54	callenbot	the type system seems good, but the actual experience of writing code is Rust is generally fraught with fear, confusion, and hate.
00:54	technomancy	yes, but all the more damning due to the fact that you have to go out of your way to make it worse
00:54	callenbot	that might be due to the fact that it's 0.6 right now, but I can't really know for sure.
00:54	callenbot	I'm not actually sure if the developers care if anybody other than the internal Mozilla Servo developers are able to use Rust
00:55	callenbot	I don't think they actually care because they're too busy being ecstatic that they're getting paid to write a compiler on top of LLVM.
00:55	technomancy	clojurebot: creating a language with statements is a great way to broadcast your inexperience with languages to the world
00:55	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
00:56	callenbot	technomancy: unlike Go and OCaml, Rust is actually intended to go head to head with C++.
00:56	callenbot	technomancy: so I'm less apt to question the statements.
00:56	technomancy	which means what, appealing to people with severe head trauma?
00:57	callenbot	technomancy: funny but I could imagine some edge cases where being able to decl a var is somehow helpful to the compiler.
00:57	callenbot	the thin red line separating systems and applications programming is usually the dividing line at which the programmer services the compiler rather than the other way around.
00:59	technomancy	think about what it means that no one who understood scheme or forth or smalltalk was exposed to the design of the language before the point at which it was considered too costly to fix
01:00	callenbot	technomancy: I don't know, pcwalton seemed pretty intelligent to me. I don't know why they did it.
01:01	callenbot	technomancy: they have random cherry-pickings of Ruby-esque syntax like implicit return
01:04	callenbot	technomancy: case in point, if you need to declare a range of memory "volatile", how do you do that without statements?
01:08	huwt	HI
01:08	huwt	hi*
01:09	huwt	(list '(:a :b)) vs (list '(a b))
01:09	amalloy	callenbot: the same way you do anything without statements: make it an expression that returns nil or some analogue thereof. statements are just "expressions that are invalid in some contexts"
01:09	huwt	I don't get the difference... just started studying it 3hrs in but confused
01:10	huwt	one is a keyword, but what does this mean in implication...
01:10	callenbot	amalloy: you could do that, and that occurred to me, but it's a weird special case to have functions or expressions that act as pragmas.
01:11	callenbot	I have no qualm with getting rid of statements, I just find the offensiveness of them to other people in non-Lisp languages to be a bit extreme.
01:11	callenbot	it's not like anybody expected Rust to be a particularly powerful or elegant language.
01:12	callenbot	it's an experiment in writing a highly concurrent and powerful web browser.
01:51	rplaca	huwt: one is a keyword and one is a symbol. They're just different things in clojure
01:51	rplaca	'a is a symbol. If you use it without the quote, clojure will try to use it as a name
01:51	rplaca	for a let-bound value or a var
01:52	rplaca	:a is a keyword, it will evaluate to itself
01:52	rplaca	so in most contexts, you can use it without quoting
01:59	Raynes	hyPiRion: Dude. Your Github contributions graph is going crazy.
02:01	Raynes	hyPiRion: A friend on another network was admiring swearjure a moment ago. I told him of your awesomeness.
02:19	phatpenguin	#neo4j
02:24	amalloy	speaking of swearjure, hyPiRion, i think first/rest, and CPS are a universal solution to the large-number representation problem, as long as you have a way to get lambdas anywhere in an expression
02:24	amalloy	like, i don't know how you manage lambdas, but for large expressions the transformation at https://www.refheap.com/paste/13171 generates a large number of small lambdas instead of one large lambda
02:25	tieTYT2	what's the point of defining something as dynamic when you don't need to define something as dynamic to with-redef it?
02:25	amalloy	instead it has stackoverflow issues, of course, but if you pass it through a trampoline or some other CPS transformer it will get you around the large-method problem
03:17	noonian	Hi, is there a standard way to get the name and version of my project from leiningen as defined in project.clj?
04:34	borkdude	so any nice clojure April fool jokes so far?
04:44	ivan	I believe the wise Clojurians have simply turned off their Internet for 48 hours
04:47	hyPiRion	Raynes: Well, I'm trying to do at least one commit per day, and one bugfix on Lein per week. It's not that much work really, but it looks nice on the contrib graph, yeah
04:49	tomoj	hyPiRion: seen gitminder?
04:50	hyPiRion	tomoj: nope, what is it?
04:50	tomoj	https://www.beeminder.com/gitminder
04:50	tomoj	uh.. sign up to give someone money if you don't keep your commit rate goal
04:50	tomoj	:/
04:50	borkdude	what is the best practice when doing multiple apps using a postgresql db? one database, multiple schemas? or one db per app? and one user per app, or just one user to rule all dbs?
04:52	borkdude	yogthos I am trying postgresql - I noticed I have to change the sql to make it work from the guestbook example
04:52	borkdude	yogthos for example, I have to convert java.util.Date to java.sql.Date
04:53	hyPiRion	tomoj: heh, well, if I suddenly get ill I don't want even more expenses
04:53	hyPiRion	amalloy: "as long as you have a way to get lambdas anywhere in an expression
04:53	hyPiRion	is probably the hardest part of Swearjure as of now
04:54	amalloy	i thought it might be, which is why i included the stipulation :P
04:54	amalloy	but i thought you had solved it
04:55	hyPiRion	well, I can do it if I make a form and eval it
04:57	hyPiRion	I'll have to revisit lambdas within lambdas soon I think
05:04	McTehranBurger	,"Hallowed are the Ori"
05:04	clojurebot	"Hallowed are the Ori"
07:19	borkdude	lol, stackoverflow has "chat with an expert" as 1 april joke?
07:22	arcatan	my expert wasn't very fun :(
07:22	borkdude	arcatan who not
07:22	borkdude	arcatan why
07:23	arcatan	she was like "Whatever you say" all the time
07:47	bhenry	what is the best java for clojure dev on ubuntu machine?
08:01	simsalibim	with compojure, how are most people doing RPC calls?
08:01	simsalibim	and clojurescript
08:02	ivan	bhenry: openjdk-7-jdk
08:03	bhenry	ivan: is that objective?
08:06	ivan	there may be reasons to use the Oracle build, or IBM's JVM, or Azul's JVM, but I bet you do not need them
08:06	hyPiRion	bhenry: If you don't notice any difference, either openjdk-6-jdk or 7 works fine
08:07	hyPiRion	I alternate between both, and I haven't noticed any major differences for development purposes
08:07	bhenry	thanks guys
08:07	tomoj	use 7 to avoid having to get jsrwhatever to use reducers
08:07	tomoj	or is it just fold now?
08:08	hyPiRion	tomoj: oh right, if you need core.reducers, then 7 is smart to have
08:08	hyPiRion	I think it falls back to the normal reduce
08:36	sandbags	does anyone here use LightTable and know if there's ever any activity in #lighttable? I'm not sure if I've just been unlucky so far
08:52	si14	how do you "unzip" a sequence in Clojure, preferably in one pass?
08:52	si14	I mean getting 2+ seqs from each element of one seq
08:55	bhenry	si14: partition and partition-all might be good starts
08:55	hyPiRion	bhenry: I think that does the opposite of what he wants
08:55	hyPiRion	,(partition 2 [1 2 3 4])
08:55	clojurebot	((1 2) (3 4))
08:55	bhenry	i guess i need to see a sample in and desired out
08:56	hyPiRion	has [[1 2] [3 4]], want [1 3] [2 4]
08:56	si14	[[1 2] [3 4] [5 6]] -> [[1 3 5] [2 4 6]]
08:56	si14	hyPiRion: yeah, thanks :)
08:56	hyPiRion	,(apply map vector [[1 2] [3 4] [5 6]])
08:56	clojurebot	([1 3 5] [2 4 6])
08:57	hyPiRion	I'm not entirely sure of performance on that one though. If you're in dire need of it, you may want to make something yourself
08:57	si14	it's kinda works, but not in general case.
08:58	si14	I have something like [[a1 b1 [c1 d1]] [a2 b2 [c2 d2]] ...] and need to get 2 maps like {[a1 b1]: c1, [a2 b2]: c2} and {d1: c1, d2: c2}
08:59	si14	it's can be done with reduce, but I wonder if there is an idiomatic approach.
09:00	bhenry	si14: i think whatever you're doing is not idiomatic.
09:00	si14	bhenry: why is it so?
09:00	hyPiRion	Well, that's not covered by the normal funcs at least
09:02	si14	ok, I need to compute 2 different metrics on one seq simultaneously. how would you do this? my current solution is r/map of fun that returns vectors of values for each element.
09:05	si14	and, btw, am I wrong or clojure.core has a typo in a released version https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core/reducers.clj#L321?
09:06	hyPiRion	si14: that may well be
09:07	hyPiRion	$google jira clojure monoid
09:07	lazybot	[Overview - Clojure v1.6 API documentation] http://clojure.github.com/clojure/branch-master/
09:07	hyPiRion	damn you, google.
09:07	tomoj	hmm, I think you need a postreduce step to do that nicely
09:08	si14	tomoj: what do you mean?
09:08	tomoj	which reminds me of cgrand's suggested change to fold
09:09	tomoj	well, see http://squing.blogspot.com/2008/11/beautiful-folding.html
09:09	tomoj	I haven't tried to make sense of it in clojure yet, but I suspect reducers as is is not very well suited
09:10	tomoj	data Fold b c = forall a. F (a -> b -> a) a (a -> c)
09:10	tomoj	the (a -> c) seems to be missing?
09:14	tomoj	(= [10 24] (r/reduce (__ + *) [1 2 3 4]))
09:16	si14	https://gist.github.com/si14/df5b9afe28835f8cc154 well, here is a pair of functions in questions
09:16	si14	lines 10-15 are there only for rearranging the data. personally I don't like it.
09:18	tomoj	oh, I missed everything before "I need to compute 2 different metrics on one seq simultaneously"
09:18	tomoj	I'm going to try to solve my problem instead of yours :)
09:19	si14	tomoj: :)
09:19	si14	I would really appreciate any comments/suggestions on that snippet.
09:19	tomoj	hmm https://www.refheap.com/paste/44fb973a86835a8bc4d7ce9b5
09:19	tomoj	that was too easy
09:22	si14	tomoj: yeah, that works for simple monoids like + or *. but for the general case it doesn't
09:24	tomoj	what is the problem for the general case?
09:24	tomoj	I mean the combinef/reducef split in r/fold seems tricky
09:25	tomoj	are there more problems?
09:28	si14	tomoj: no, that's the problem :)
09:29	tomoj	makes me kind of want one thing that can represent both the combine and reduce
09:31	tomoj	https://www.refheap.com/paste/224956f9814740700a3e7f377 ? :(
09:32	tomoj	(defprotocol IMonoid (-empty [this]) (-combine [this ret ret']) (-reduce [this ret v]))
09:32	tomoj	?
09:33	tomoj	yeah, bad name..
09:33	tomoj	I'd say 'IFolder' but..
09:37	tomoj	(defprotocol ICombine (-empty [this]) (-combine [this cret cret']) (-reduce [this ret v]) (-postreduce [this ret]))
09:38	tomoj	(extend-type Fn ICombine (-empty [this] (this)) (-combine [this cret cret'] (this cret cret')) (-reduce [this ret v] (this ret v)) (-postreduce [this ret] ret)) ?
09:40	tomoj	would allow cgrand's idea without breaking existing monoids
09:44	jcromartie	what exactly is print-dup
09:44	jcromartie	it's undocumented and not self explanator
09:44	jcromartie	y
09:44	jcromartie	but it pops up in various examples and discussions
09:44	tomoj	,(doc print-dup)
09:45	clojurebot	"; When set to logical true, objects will be printed in a way that preserves their type when read in later. Defaults to false."
09:46	jcromartie	it specifically seems to rely on read eval
09:46	jcromartie	,(print-dup {} out)
09:46	clojurebot	#=(clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap/create {})
09:46	hyPiRion	,(pr-str (doto (ArrayList.) (.add 1) (.add 2) (.add 3)))
09:46	clojurebot	"[1 2 3]"
09:47	hyPiRion	,(binding [print-dup true] (pr-str (doto (ArrayList.) (.add 1) (.add 2) (.add 3))))
09:47	clojurebot	"#=(java.util.ArrayList. [1 2 3])"
09:48	hyPiRion	jcromartie: do you get its use now?
09:48	jcromartie	more or less
09:48	jcromartie	I don't quite understand why people advocate using the print-dup function directly in certain cases
09:49	jcromartie	it might just be the specific example I was looking at
09:49	bhenry	where can i find a walkthrough on the current best practice of a .emacs that works great for clj dev?
09:50	bhenry	i have the standard emacs from apt-get install emacs
09:50	hyPiRion	bhenry: Bodil has a great .emacs.d at https://github.com/bodil/emacs.d, which you may want to look at
09:51	hyPiRion	I have stolen that design for mine (https://github.com/hyPiRion/emacs.d)
09:51	hyPiRion	Though they are more extensive than just Clojure though, so if you're new to emacs they are probably a bit overwhelming.
09:51	rkneufeld	For something a bit smaller you might try bit.ly/clj-ready.
09:52	stuartsierra	jcromartie: I don't think print-dup is meant to be called directly.
09:52	jcromartie	I didn't think so
09:52	hyPiRion	(inc rkneufeld)
09:52	lazybot	⇒ 1
09:53	hyPiRion	That's a way better introduction for someone completely new. :)
09:56	rkneufeld	Once the Clojure/west videos are up you'll also be able to see my presentation on editing Clojure in Emacs. Until then there are my animated slides: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rwjer7p9mirbwfw/Editing%20Clojure%20with%20Emacs.mov
10:24	otfrom	afternoon all
10:35	borkdude	http://clochure.org/
10:43	gfrederi1ks	borkdude: wat
10:44	gfrederi1ks	this must be date-related
10:46	nDuff	snerk
10:48	tbaldrid_	"A better Clojure" https://github.com/videlalvaro/clochure/
10:51	snowylike	at first I thought this was an April Fools joke
10:51	snowylike	but then...
10:51	borkdude	tbaldrid_ clojure for the masses
10:52	hyPiRion	Has to be.
10:52	snowylike	quote: "So one the eve of April 1st we sat down in a brainstorm session with a team of PLT experts. Ideas starting flying around:"
10:52	snowylike	with "April 1st" in bold
10:56	hyPiRion	Obvious is obvious
10:58	hyPiRion	clochure.core looks rather blocky
11:01	gfredericks	great logo
11:02	otfrom	lovely
11:02	borkdude	untyped Haskell would be an alternative worth exploring
11:02	hyPiRion	gfredericks: We need one of those for Swearjure!
11:03	jcromartie	ooh, a new clojure project to poke at https://github.com/oakes/Nightweb/tree/master/server
11:04	jcromartie	wait a minute
11:04	hyPiRion	Well, it certainly is new.
11:05	jcromartie	here's the interesting stuff https://github.com/oakes/Nightweb/tree/master/common/clojure
11:06	jcromartie	pretty neat idea though
11:06	otfrom	Is there something in clojure core that lets you restructure a map based on the parameters to a function?
11:06	otfrom	I found this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8999794/map-restructuring
11:06	otfrom	but I'm wondering if I'm missing something core
11:07	gfredericks	hyPiRion: I'm terrible at logos
11:07	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Not you, we.
11:08	gfredericks	otfrom: not sure what you're asking. the top answer says "it's not provided" which is accurate. did you want something slightly different?
11:09	jcromartie	restructuring, huh, interesting idea
11:10	jcromartie	basically printf for data structures
11:10	bbloom	otfrom: not really workable with maps because the reader initializes them as real data structures
11:11	bbloom	if you wanted to d something like obj = {a, b, c}, then you'd have an odd number of keys
11:11	bbloom	you'd need to do something like {:keys [a b c]}
11:11	jcromartie	just like destructuring
11:11	bbloom	but then you have no way of differentiating between assignment and restructuring, you'd need some kind of marker
11:12	bbloom	jcromartie: right, i'm just saying that it couldn't be baked into the syntax w/o creating ambiguity, you'd need to specifically request restructuring
11:12	otfrom	What I'd like to be able to do is (defn foo [bar baz] ...) call (foo 1 3) and have {:bar 1 :baz 3} available in the defn
11:12	gfredericks	that's defnk ain't it?
11:13	gfredericks	no wait
11:13	gfredericks	nevermind
11:13	gfredericks	otfrom: so you want a special extra local that has the arguments
11:14	otfrom	I'm not sure I want it, but if it existed, then I'd want to use it
11:14	otfrom	and it seems like it doesn't exist
11:14	jcromartie	otfrom: it seems easy enough to make
11:14	clojurebot	Huh?
11:14	otfrom	and it is always so difficult to proves something doesn't exist ;-)
11:14	otfrom	jcromartie: it does look simple to make, which is partly why I thought there might be something in core already
11:15	otfrom	and I'd just feel silly for re-implementing it
11:15	gfredericks	(defmacro defn' [name arglist & body] `(defn ~name ~arglist (let [&args {~@(mapcat (juxt keyword identity) arglist)}] ~@body)))
11:15	gfredericks	^ that has a 14% chance of working
11:15	otfrom	lol
11:15	gfredericks	wait no 0
11:15	hyPiRion	14%? That's specific.
11:15	gfredericks	the splicing won't work
11:15	hyPiRion	,(rationalize 0.14)
11:15	clojurebot	7/50
11:15	hyPiRion	Works 7 out of 50 times, every time.
11:16	gfredericks	(defmacro defn' [name arglist & body] `(defn ~name ~arglist (let [&args ~(into {} (map (juxt keyword identity) arglist))] ~@body)))
11:16	hyPiRion	yeah, you need a ~@[] before the mapcat
11:16	hyPiRion	boo
11:17	otfrom	I just hate re-implementing clojure.core badly. ;-) But at least it looks like I won't be doing that this time
11:17	loliveira	is there some way to implement "private" variables inside a defrecord?
11:17	jcromartie	(defmacro ?map [& names] `(into {} ~(mapv #(vector (keyword %) %) names)))
11:17	gfredericks	oh one more issue the fully qualified &args
11:17	jcromartie	I have no idea what to call it
11:17	gfredericks	(defmacro defn' [name arglist & body] `(defn ~name ~arglist (let [~'&args ~(into {} (map (juxt keyword identity) arglist))] ~@body)))
11:17	gfredericks	otfrom: ^ that seems to work in my repl
11:18	bbloom	loliveira: to what end?
11:20	hugod	I just found then when generating type hints on let bindings with a macro, you have to use class symbols, rather than classes themselves, or the type hints are silently ignored :(
11:20	jcromartie	loliveira: deftype's fields are public, deftype's fields are private
11:21	bbloom	jcromartie: huh?
11:21	jcromartie	bbloom?
11:21	clojurebot	bbloom: readability is not binary
11:21	bbloom	jcromartie: i assume you mean defrecord and deftype specifically
11:21	bbloom	er respectively*
11:21	jcromartie	oops
11:21	jcromartie	yea
11:21	loliveira	bbloom: I have a record that holds database credentials. (defrecord DB [spec] …) spec is a map, it holds user, pass, driver, etc.. I'd like to store a pool into the record, but I think it should be private.
11:22	jcromartie	loliveira: why combine the DB spec and the pool?
11:22	bbloom	loliveira: why do you need a record at all?
11:22	jcromartie	^^ that too
11:22	bbloom	records are an advanced feature
11:22	bbloom	they are mostly a performance tool for when you need type dispatch
11:23	loliveira	bbloom: I need to work with 2 databases. it shoud
11:23	bbloom	so make two maps of credentials
11:23	bbloom	and stick them in a vector or something
11:23	bbloom	and stick that in a map with the pool
11:24	tjgillies	why do people use two semicolons for comments when one is fine? seems sort of redundant
11:24	bbloom	{:pool POOL :connections [{:username "foo" :url "xyz://..."} {:connection-string "asdfasdf"}]}
11:24	bbloom	tjgillies: common-lisp-ism. one semicolon is a line comment for stuff to the left of the ;
11:24	jcromartie	tjgillies: https://github.com/bbatsov/clojure-style-guide#comments
11:25	jcromartie	tjgillies: think of it like headline levels
11:25	bbloom	yeah, what jcromartie said
11:25	loliveira	bbloom: thank ypu
11:25	loliveira	i ll try.
11:25	tjgillies	...
11:25	tjgillies	that websites just says "do this because i say so"
11:25	tjgillies	heh
11:25	AimHere	Well isn't that what all style guides are for
11:26	bbloom	i dunno anything about that particular styleguide
11:26	tjgillies	thats kinda my point
11:26	tjgillies	;)
11:26	bbloom	but it's very common in lisps to have ; line comment, ;; block comment ;;; region comment ;;;; file comment
11:26	technomancy	riastradh' style guide says "do it this way because parens on their own line get lonely" which is pretty great
11:26	AimHere	Most of the content in most coding styles are arbitrary; but it's still good practice to follow one of them
11:27	hyPiRion	bbloom: there should be another one in project.clj, which has ;;;;; for project comments
11:27	technomancy	"do it this way because you'll sound funny if you don't" is basically the cornerstone of all human language though
11:27	hyPiRion	and then obviously ;;;;;; for system/application comments
11:28	enquora	anyone have experience with pedestal yet?
11:28	bbloom	hyPiRion: ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; line separators == "comment on the universe below this point"
11:28	tjgillies	technomancy: yet here we are programming with parenthesis and such ;)
11:29	technomancy	tjgillies: all those crazy languages with curly brackets and semicolons just sound like gibberish to me
11:29	tjgillies	lol
11:30	technomancy	http://achewood.com/index.php?date=02212002
11:30	bbloom	i can't ever remember associativity rules anyway
11:30	tjgillies	i just realized putting a semicolon on the end of each line is valid clojure
11:30	hyPiRion	I suspect John McCarthy invented the emoticon and just wanted to be able to insert ;) at any place within his source code.
11:30	technomancy	heh
11:31	egghead	achewood rules
11:31	tjgillies	omg thats messed up if not funny
11:31	hyPiRion	tjgillies: Putting a semicolon at the start of each line is also valid Clojure
11:32	tjgillies	hyPiRion: it tends to make my programs less buggy as well
11:32	hyPiRion	yeh
11:34	stuartsierra	tjgillies: Emacs will automatically indent ; at right margin, ;; at current code indent level, and ;;; at left margin
11:35	tjgillies	(inc stuartsierra)
11:35	lazybot	⇒ 3
11:35	ucb	stuartsierra: I rather enjoyed your post on scope
11:35	stuartsierra	ucb: Thank you.
11:35	ucb	no, thank you.
11:36	stuartsierra	You're welcome. :)
11:37	ucb	stuartsierra: sorry if this is a silly question, but I got to your blog via planet clojure and I couldn't find an RSS link on your blog. Is this by design?
11:38	stuartsierra	no
11:38	stuartsierra	It uses feedburner.
11:38	bbloom	which is surely going to be killed soon.
11:38	ucb	hmm
11:38	ucb	heh
11:38	stuartsierra	I changed the theme recently: maybe the link is broken.
11:39	borkdude	what advantage has defhtml in hiccup over a normal function with html form?
11:39	ucb	I couldn't even find the link :)
11:40	stuartsierra	ucb: Yeah, I should fix that.
11:40	ucb	good to confirm it's not my tired eyes then
11:41	stuartsierra	Thanks for the heads-up. I'll try to fix that.
11:42	stuartsierra	ucb: The link, by the way, is http://stuartsierra.com/feed
11:43	borkdude	ANN: Untyped Strictly Evaluated S-Expression Haskell for the JVM http://t.co/kQoxHEcmeM
11:46	bbloom	borkdude: lol.
11:46	tjgillies	today is gonna suck
11:46	tjgillies	:)
11:49	stuartsierra	There, RSS links added.
11:49	TimMc	I've seen a defn+opts
11:50	TimMc	whoops, I was in the scrollback
12:00	estebann	ls
12:00	lazybot	bin lib opt proc root sys
12:03	estebann	i'm trying to get an internal maven repo setup and I'm having a bit of trouble with leiningen
12:04	estebann	deploying works fine but the Authentication string is not sent when trying to download artifacts from the local mirror of central
12:04	estebann	has anybody setup leiningen to use mirrors with basic http authentication?
12:06	technomancy	estebann: are you able to pull from it if you treat it like a regular repo instead of a mirror?
12:07	estebann	technomancy: i have been testing against an artifact available in central and it seems to try central first if I don't setup a mirror
12:07	estebann	I could be wrong about that, let me check
12:10	technomancy	you can do :repositories ^:replace [["myrepo" {...}]]
12:10	technomancy	to disable central/clojars
12:10	lyra77	http://xteensx.info/young-amateur-czech-couple-very-hot-sex-scene/
12:11	technomancy	~guards
12:11	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
12:11	estebann	technomancy: cool, I didn't know that
12:13	hyPiRion	~gourds
12:13	clojurebot	SQUEEZE HIM!
12:13	technomancy	clojurebot: botsnack
12:13	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
12:15	estebann	technomancy: yeah, that works
12:15	hyPiRion	Ah, that's another plugin idea for lazybot/clojurebot: Say something whenever suspicious links appear here
12:15	estebann	i can pull the artifact from the proxy
12:16	jcromartie	bleh… mixing mutable thread-unsafe Java objects and Clojure concurrency
12:16	technomancy	estebann: so the problem there is that it might allow for transitive dependencies to skip the proxy
12:16	jcromartie	instant pain!
12:16	technomancy	I haven't really looked into it, but I think the advantage of :mirrors is that all references to central go through your repo instead
12:17	technomancy	whereas with :repositories you can still have other repos sneak in through declarations of using central inside a dependency pom
12:17	estebann	ah, gotcha
12:17	technomancy	I was mostly asking that to see if lein could authenticate at all
12:18	technomancy	that is, whether the auth issues were specific to the mirror functionality
12:18	estebann	makes sense
12:18	technomancy	unfortunately I've never actually used mirrors myself =\
12:18	borkdude	clojars april fools joke that didn't make it: for each jar you download, you have to contribute one library :P
12:19	wting	Hey guys, I'm trying to compile a hello world example via lein repl, but ('compile clojure.examples.hello) gives me a file not found in classpath. What the directory structure I should be using?
12:19	estebann	technomancy: should mirrors work like I am expecting them to? or have I misunderstood their capabilities
12:20	hyPiRion	wting: (compile 'clojure.examples.hello) instead, I suppose :)
12:20	wting	hyPiRion: oops, that's what I meant. :p
12:20	technomancy	estebann: I'm not quite sure what your expectations are, but you haven't said anything obviously incorrect yet =)
12:20	borkdude	wting probably don't want to name your namespaces starting with clojure
12:20	hyPiRion	wting: but are you using Leiningen, or just pure Clojure?
12:20	technomancy	TBH the mirrors stuff is kind of hand-wavy from my perspective; I just hand off to Aether and it does the rest
12:21	estebann	technomancy: ok, I guess I'll look into what's going on in aether, thanks for the help
12:22	wting	hyPiRion: Well I'm not using lein new to create the project, I'm just trying to compile it via `lein repl`. I just want to get a hello world compiled example working.
12:22	technomancy	estebann: how are you configuring mirror auth?
12:22	technomancy	it might be that Leiningen just isn't honoring auth settings or something
12:22	estebann	:creds :gpg like everything else
12:22	technomancy	yeah, that could just be an oversight of Leiningen that it doesn't check there maybe?
12:23	technomancy	if you put the creds inline does it work?
12:23	estebann	i'll check
12:25	hyPiRion	wting: Well, the docstring says "The source for the lib must be in a proper classpath-relative directory. The output files will go into the directory specified by compile-path, and that directory too must be in the classpath."
12:26	estebann	technomancy: yeah, that worked. should I submit a bug report?
12:26	hyPiRion	wting: So if have /some/dir in your classpath, then the file should be /some/dir/clojure/examples/hello.clj
12:26	technomancy	estebann: yeah, go for it
12:26	estebann	technomancy: thanks again
12:26	technomancy	no problem
12:33	augustl	are there any asset pipeline (name borrowed from Rails) systems around for Ring apps? For stuff like compiling non-JS to JS, only serving one minified file in production (from memory, probably), etc
12:37	scottj	augustl: maybe dieter, see pdf in clojurewest slides Biggar-cljv8_dieter_asset_pipeline.pdf
12:37	wting	hyPiRion: So I have a file in /tmp/hello/src/hello.clj with (ns hello (:gen-class)). In /tmp/hello I run `java -cp /usr/share/clojure/clojure.jar clojure.main`
12:38	wting	However (compile 'hello) still fails. Should namespace be src.hello in hello.clj?
12:38	hyPiRion	wting: ugh, let me just find out what Leiningen does in a project :p
12:39	wting	I have lein installed if that's quicker
12:39	augustl	scottj: looking it up, thanks
12:40	hyPiRion	well, it's easier to make a project (`lein new app projectname`) and just use lein repl, then all classpaths and so forth are fixed for you
12:41	wting	hyPiRion: ahh ok, I see. I managed to compile the classes just fine, now I gotta figure out how to run them. :p
12:42	hyPiRion	I think that's the general consensus in the Clojuresphere.
12:42	hyPiRion	wting: Leiningen can take care of that too :) `lein run` runs the project, `lein uberjar` creates a standalone jar
12:43	hyPiRion	with uberjaring, the jar file lies within target/name-of-project-0.1.0-standalone.jar by default
12:43	hyPiRion	(run by `java -jar name-of-jar`)
12:46	jaley	making extensive use of the closure library from clojurescript is just asking for typos
12:51	pl6306	I am processing a seq of strings. Is there something like a take while? So I can create maps after the first instance of say "--------------------------"?
12:53	hyPiRion	,(take-while #(not= "---" %) ["a" "b" "hey" "---" "Not" "used"]) ; ?
12:53	clojurebot	("a" "b" "hey")
12:54	pl6306	How about if only want the tail of the seq?
12:54	jaley	pl6306: drop-while?
12:54	pl6306	thanks
12:54	hyPiRion	yeah, (rest (drop-while instead
12:55	bbloom	ibdknox: i see you forked fipp. anything interesting in mind? (also, if you're using it, you should update as there was a major bug fix thanks to octagon)
13:05	wting	hyPiRion: managed to compile and run the jar, thanks!
13:05	tieTYT	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15747774/whats-the-point-of-defining-something-as-dynamic-when-you-dont-need-to-define
13:08	hyPiRion	wting: you're welcome, enjoy :)
13:10	gfredericks	tieTYT: binding is thread-local, and with-redefs is not; thus the latter is not generally thread-safe
13:11	tieTYT	does that mean that with-redefs will have an affect outside of its scope if another thread tries to run the function?
13:12	finishingmove	hey guys, how would i do something like (int 2.6) but to get 3 instead of 2 ? (round up)
13:14	hyPiRion	,(int (Math/round 2.6))
13:14	clojurebot	3
13:14	joegallo	tieTYT: yes, it's a global thing, often useful for tests, probably not useful for normal code
13:15	joegallo	,(int (Math/round 2.1)) ;; though
13:15	clojurebot	2
13:15	finishingmove	thanks guys
13:15	joegallo	,(int (Math/ceil 2.1)) ;; perhaps you want this
13:15	clojurebot	3
13:15	finishingmove	hm
13:16	finishingmove	so i guess there's a Math/floor too :)
13:16	joegallo	aye
13:16	tieTYT	ok but if you're single threaded, then the redef only occurs in the lexical scope of the with-redefs, right?
13:16	hyPiRion	yup
13:16	tieTYT	ok
13:16	joegallo	tieTYT: sure...
13:16	technomancy	tieTYT: no, with-redefs has dynamic extent
13:16	finishingmove	newbie question, but can i somehow add a 'use' statement somewhere and not have to write "Math/ ..." explicitly?
13:17	tieTYT	technomancy: i understand it redefines in a dynamic way
13:17	tieTYT	but once the scope of the with-redefs exits, the function goes back the way it was defined, right?
13:17	technomancy	yes
13:18	technomancy	(which is not how lexical scope works)
13:18	tieTYT	right
13:18	hyPiRion	tieTYT: I think you flipped dynamic and lexical
13:19	tieTYT	what I was saying is that if the with-redefs is nested, its redef only takes effect under its scope and not outside of it
13:19	tieTYT	just like how if you nest a let, those symbols only have those values under the let's scope
13:20	technomancy	no, let is different
13:20	technomancy	it doesn't extend inside the calls in the let body
13:20	tieTYT	i understand
13:20	tieTYT	i'm not talking about the functionality, i'm talking about the scope of their effect
13:20	hyPiRion	finishingmove: I don't think there is, actually.
13:20	tieTYT	anyway I think I get it :)
13:21	finishingmove	hyPiRion hm... maybe some 3rd party support?
13:22	hyPiRion	finishingmove: there was this thing called import-static, but I don't think it has been updated since Clojure 1.2
13:24	hyPiRion	you could always try it out though
13:27	TimMc	finishingmove: May I offer a compromise? (.importClass ns 'M Math) then (M/abs -3)
13:27	finishingmove	TimMc yes that looks neat
13:30	Raynes	Sigh.
13:30	Raynes	Looks like Charles Nutter is trying to 'fix' Lisp syntax as well.
13:31	technomancy	Raynes: I loled until I saw the "not an april fools joke" message at the top =\
13:31	Raynes	technomancy: Yeah, I'm arguing with him and he is being very trollish.
13:32	tomoj	where's this?
13:32	technomancy	he should know better, but yeah... nothing to be done
13:32	Raynes	Twitter, tomoj.
13:34	technomancy	Raynes: I linked to his gist on the lein-xml announcement though =D
13:34	callenbot	Raynes: dude implements a slow Ruby implementation (original, yes?) and now he has something to teach everybody :P
13:35	technomancy	"a slow Ruby implementation" is there another kind?
13:35	technomancy	JRuby's fast for a ruby though
13:35	callenbot	kinda-sorta-not-really.
13:36	callenbot	technomancy: MacRuby and Rubinius are neat.
13:36	bbloom	technomancy: yes, but they aren't really rubies so much as they are ruby look alikes :-P
13:36	bbloom	MacRuby is just objective C with ruby syntax & statically resolved metaprogramming, which, to be fair, is a huge step up from no meta programming
13:37	callenbot	well I like Elixir too.
13:37	Raynes	technomancy: I just hate it when I respect people and then they do things like that and it smells so much like trolling that I'm baited in and I have to make them hate me with logic.
13:38	callenbot	Raynes: can you link what he's doing?
13:38	tomoj	https://gist.github.com/headius/5285216
13:39	callenbot	sigh.
13:39	amalloy	wait, Raynes, if it smells like trolling that should do the opposite of bait you in
13:40	callenbot	nobody that actually writes Lisp, cares.
13:40	callenbot	this is a stupid gist.
13:40	tomoj	doesn't his "Immutable data structure example" call the data structures with no arguments?
13:41	tomoj	I guess he thinks functions are these special things and you always know whether a symbol resolves to a function
13:41	bbloom	tomoj: yeah, that's the main problem with these indentation based approaches. they assume static type knowledge
13:41	Raynes	callenbot: https://twitter.com/headius/status/318780382348726272
13:42	Raynes	This is part oft he thread.
13:42	Raynes	But there is a lot more spread out.
13:42	Raynes	Look at my or his twitter stream for more bitching.
13:42	callenbot	okay, so I admire Erlang
13:42	callenbot	but I don't swoop into their community claiming to be able to solve what I think are their "problems"
13:42	callenbot	why is he doing that to us?
13:43	Raynes	Because he can.
13:43	Raynes	And he really thinks he is right.
13:44	callenbot	Raynes: must not work with macros on the regular.
13:44	Raynes	I'm more concerned that 5 people have told him he is utterly wrong and he just keeps repeating the same pointless things.
13:44	Raynes	Make that 6.
13:44	Raynes	People are still hopping in to tell him he is wrong.
13:44	callenbot	my mental bucket that says, "Ruby programmers are shallow" just had a few pebbles chucked into it.
13:44	callenbot	technomancy: sorry!
13:44	true_droid	hey guys. I'm not very proficient with Clojure, but I'd like to find out how exactly existing Clojure collections reduce themselves with a given reducer
13:45	true_droid	could someone point out places in Clojure source where to look?
13:45	Raynes	I don't think it has anything to do with what community he is from. It's more that he just hasn't even used Clojure and has decided it is broken and he is the messiah who can fix it.
13:45	bbloom	true_droid: grep for coll-reduce
13:45	technomancy	callenbot: more like "being good at compilers doesn't mean you won't suck at issues of crossing community divides" maybe?
13:46	true_droid	bbloom: thanks
13:46	callenbot	technomancy: I'll go with that, but usually people that have tackled seriously large projects are more humble.
13:46	technomancy	callenbot: I'm a bit sympathetic because the enormous amounts of shit he gets from ruby people who are like "eww yuck java" when they read about jruby
13:47	bbloom	i'm once again struck by how forcefully cond resists being formatted cleanly in ANY syntax/notation
13:47	callenbot	technomancy: if you need jruby's concurrency mechanisms, then you shouldn't be using Ruby anyway :P
13:48	amalloy	bbloom: i have a cute trick for that, if you like
13:48	technomancy	callenbot: not always an option. but anyway, this gist is stupid; no argument.
13:48	bbloom	amalloy: oh?
13:48	technomancy	and yeah, cond is super annoying
13:48	amalloy	the biggest problem is when the conditions are long enough that you need to wrap the then-clauses onto the next line, right?
13:49	bbloom	shrug when that happens i tend to just indent all of the then-clauses
13:49	amalloy	so you indent the then-clause with two commas, and emacs doesn't know it can delete them to "fix" your indentation
13:49	bbloom	amalloy: hmm interesting heh
13:49	bbloom	i don't use emacs, so i don't fight with the indenter nearly as much
13:50	hyPiRion	Well, that's a limitation to clojure-mode though. I wouldn't be surprised if that can be fixed.
13:50	jcromartie	I didn't know people were so hung up on parens
13:50	jcromartie	on both sides
13:50	bbloom	jcromartie: it's just alien to people
13:50	amalloy	hyPiRion: it probably can, but nobody will. the indenter is hard to understand, and if it special-cases cond then your enhanced-cond macro will still be just as bad
13:52	hyPiRion	I'm not surprised.
13:52	technomancy	every time I have to write a cond where the body clauses need their own line it just makes me think I should be using core.match
13:52	bbloom	technomancy: but matching has a similar problem. the issue is more generally: 2D structures are hard to work with in text
13:52	TimMc	technomancy: core.match is still woefully undercooked.
13:53	bbloom	pattern matching adds some extra brackets and syntax that aleivates the problem :-P
13:53	bbloom	alleviates* sheesh i can't spell and or type
13:53	technomancy	TimMc: yeah, we played with it at seajure and came to that conclusion
13:53	technomancy	kind of bums me out that it's not under active development any more
13:54	bbloom	technomancy: on a totally random side note. have you ever seen jonathan edwards schematic tables?
13:54	bbloom	super cool.
13:54	technomancy	bbloom: I think I saw some of that at his emerginglangs talk?
13:54	technomancy	that was like 2009 though so I'm a bit fuzzy
13:54	bbloom	technomancy: http://subtextual.org/subtext2.html
13:55	bbloom	technomancy: it's obviously just research/experimentation, but damn it's a cool demo
13:55	technomancy	flash =(
13:56	bbloom	shrug you have no way to view flash at all?
13:56	technomancy	I could get my wife's computer I guess?
13:56	bbloom	lol
13:56	bbloom	ok, well if you ever get 40ish minutes to watch it, i recommend it
13:56	bbloom	it's a really cool demo
13:57	technomancy	IIRC his emerginglangs talk was pretty FRP-heavy?
13:57	bbloom	didn't see it
13:57	bbloom	this is an older demo about his idea of a GUI for visualizing decision trees & data flow
13:57	callenbot	Stuff like FRP makes functional programming look bad to the muggles, IMHO.
13:57	technomancy	I get the feeling if I try to find it I'll find a bunch of fire-and-brimstone 18th-century sermons
13:58	ztellman	callenbot: how so?
13:58	callenbot	ztellman: making things they thought they already understood more complicated.
13:58	amalloy	callenbot: doesn't all of FP do that?
13:58	callenbot	ztellman: speaking from what I saw of it in Haskell, anyway.
13:59	amalloy	"gosh dang, i already understand loops, why is this reduce stuff so friggin complicated"
13:59	technomancy	the FRP presentations I've seen aren't like that at all
13:59	callenbot	the lengths one had to go to to simply make a game was obscene.
13:59	technomancy	elm and Edwards' stuff
13:59	ztellman	callenbot: it's basically just the same conversation as callbacks vs promises, maybe you've just seen needlessly opaque presentations
13:59	bbloom	part of the problem with functional programming is that it makes complexity more apparent
14:00	bbloom	it seems harder b/c it IS harder than it seemed before :-P
14:00	bbloom	however, it's just as hard both ways lol
14:00	callenbot	ztellman: I don't really have a problem with it
14:00	seancorfield	that sounds like a positive, not a problem, bbloom
14:00	callenbot	ztellman: I have a problem with the impression it makes.
14:00	bbloom	seancorfield: you're right. let me qualify: the ADOPTION problem
14:00	ztellman	callenbot: write a letter to your haskell congressman, I dunno
14:01	callenbot	ztellman: I don't think anybody had serious trouble understanding promises
14:01	callenbot	and promises offer a simplification of code that I think most can grasp.
14:01	callenbot	I'm not sure the same is the case with FRP unless you've been deep down in the tarpit.
14:01	ztellman	callenbot: honestly, promises are only a hop, skip, and a jump away from FRP
14:02	bbloom	callenbot: 90% of the time, people just want to immediately resolve a promise, but lack of lightweight threads makes that a problem
14:02	ztellman	not in terms of complexity, I mean, but in terms of actual underlying concept
14:03	callenbot	ztellman: well if you put up a talk demonstrating as much, you'll probably solve some of the marketing problems.
14:03	callenbot	ztellman: again, this might be a Haskell thing, but writing games with FRP was, "lets write a thesis!", not, "lets write a game!"
14:04	ztellman	callenbot: oh, in academia FRP is a big wanky black hole
14:04	bbloom	ztellman: you can say that again.
14:04	hyPiRion	callenbot: It's all the formal words, I think
14:05	hyPiRion	monoid? catamorphism? zygohistomorphic prepromorphism?
14:05	hyPiRion	It frightens people.
14:05	callenbot	I was speaking of the code.
14:06	callenbot	I don't pay any attention to category theory.
14:06	bbloom	hyPiRion: i think it's different than frightening people. i think it's actually a cognitive burden to have such big words
14:06	gfredericks	monoid is six characters
14:06	gfredericks	monad is even shorter
14:07	bbloom	monoids are quite easy to understand :-P monads have a different problem
14:07	gfredericks	maybe we should rename monads something longer and scarier so people will stop being improperly interested
14:07	bbloom	lol
14:08	gfredericks	endofunctorial-monoid maybe
14:08	gfredericks	(EFM)
14:08	bbloom	it's like the word "blog"
14:09	bbloom	there were news sites and personal home pages with regular updates long before the word "blog"
14:09	hyPiRion	Maybe we should just enterprisify it
14:09	bbloom	if you had called it a "automatic personal news publishing home page" it would have never caught on lol
14:09	hyPiRion	ConnectionListenerMonoid
14:09	hyPiRion	There we go, now we can ship it.
14:10	ztellman	btw, since some people here have been down the FRP rabbit hole
14:10	ztellman	anyone aware of something that deals with how FRP interacts with TCP backpressure?
14:10	ztellman	I've searched in vain
14:11	bbloom	ztellman: huh?
14:11	ztellman	bbloom: FRP in a server context
14:11	amalloy	ztellman: the connection between those is hard to see, even knowing that you must mean in aleph/lamina. what's a more specific part of the problem?
14:12	ztellman	so I was looking at all the various versions of Rx
14:13	ztellman	it's not clear to me if there's a story for when you can't reach the end of the FRP chain synchronously
14:13	ztellman	i.e. there's a queue, or pending write over the network, etc.
14:14	ztellman	the main problem here is that I'm not even sure what the right terminology here is, as maybe evidenced by my question
14:14	ztellman	bbloom, amalloy does that make any more sense?
14:14	bbloom	ztellman: i know of many of the words & technologies you're talking about, but i have no clue what you're asking....
14:14	bbloom	ztellman: rewind and simplify
14:15	bbloom	ztellman: or maybe provide a concrete example
14:16	amalloy	i think so, but i'm definitely not qualified to answer it myself
14:16	ztellman	sure, trying to figure out the best way to unwind this
14:16	ztellman	ok, simplest example:
14:16	ztellman	you're a proxy between two different computers
14:16	ztellman	you're taking messages from one, doing some sort of transformation, and forwarding it to the other
14:17	ztellman	in general, these messages can be considered in isolation
14:18	ztellman	but if the bandwidth of the producer outstrips the consumer, you start to run out of memory as the messages back up
14:18	callenbot	ztellman: wouldn't backpressure throttling mean the promises block longer?
14:18	bbloom	ztellman: aaah ok, i now think i get what you're asking
14:18	ztellman	callenbot: promises representing what, exactly?
14:19	callenbot	deliverable result of some sort.
14:19	ztellman	bbloom: my reading of FRP is that each value propagation is calculated in isolation
14:19	augustl	hmm, is it true that the routing module is what adds a "href" attribute to all "a" tags?
14:19	augustl	err, wrong channel
14:19	bbloom	ztellman: so FRP is a totally overloaded and completely useless acronym
14:19	ztellman	haha, ok
14:19	bbloom	ztellman: in this case, you're talking about Push Streams
14:19	bbloom	push sequences
14:19	bbloom	microsoft's Rx
14:19	bbloom	etc
14:19	ztellman	correct
14:20	bbloom	what FRP originally meant and is most commonly discussed in the literature as is for dataflow systems basically
14:20	ztellman	so to greatly simplify my question: what happens with push streams when there's no more room to push?
14:20	bbloom	let's ignore ALL that and talk about push sequences
14:21	bbloom	ztellman: so yeah, this is a distributed systems problem
14:21	bbloom	you have to choose a policy
14:21	bbloom	block the sender (how?), drop messages (which?), etc
14:21	bbloom	push sequences are fundamentally no different than sockets in their design space
14:22	ztellman	sockets in the generic sense?
14:22	bbloom	yeah, like unix sockets, but more similar to zeromq sockets or message passing sockets
14:22	bbloom	one problem IMO with Rx is that the pipeline is opaque
14:22	ztellman	yes, agreed
14:23	bbloom	you can't look inside each phase of the transformation & modify it
14:23	bbloom	which is a problem w/ functions too, but it's not as big a problem cus functions rarely have internal state
14:23	bbloom	if you add an atom to cache stuff in your function, then suddenly your function is harder to work with, debug, etc
14:24	bbloom	push sequences inherently have some state/context and you can't see that easily
14:24	bbloom	one school of thought is that you don't NEED to see it
14:24	bbloom	that's the zeromq way
14:24	bbloom	i highly recommend reading http://zguide.zeromq.org/page:all
14:25	bbloom	it's long, but it has some reeeaaaally good explanations about common patterns for robust distributed communication designs
14:25	ztellman	I read it a ways back
14:25	ztellman	but i'll take another look, thanks
14:25	borkdude	just checkin, this should be safe? db.config just contains a map with some settings (clojure.edn/read-string (slurp "resources/db.config"))
14:26	ztellman	specifically w.r.t. the policies you mentioned above, though
14:26	ztellman	is there a first-class representation of that in Rx?
14:26	amalloy	borkdude: yes, that cannot execute any code as far as i know
14:26	bbloom	i dunno
14:26	bbloom	zero mq has different types of sockets & the pairing of sockets dictates policy for things
14:27	ztellman	ok, cool
14:27	ztellman	I'm looking for prior art in that space, I think I glossed over that part of it before
14:27	ztellman	in zmq, that is
14:27	bbloom	in theory, you could create Rx components that essentially map to the buffering and blocking policies of zeromq
14:28	bbloom	the tables on this page summarize: http://api.zeromq.org/3-2:zmq-socket
14:29	ztellman	perfect, thank you
14:30	ztellman	on a tangential note, could you characterize the difference between push sequences and standard dataflow?
14:30	ztellman	I think I've gotten them conflated in my head
14:31	bbloom	push sequences have a linear notion of time, dataflow as an instantaneous notion
14:31	jcromartie	any reason to use (Double. x) over (Double/parseDouble x) ?
14:31	technomancy	jcromartie: I think the former accepts things that are already doubles?
14:31	technomancy	at least for Integer that's how it works
14:32	bbloom	ztellman: FRP dataflow systems tend to have concepts like signals, behaviors, etc. push sequences basically have subscribe/unsubscribe/push
14:32	bbloom	ztellman: it's sorta like comparing lazy seqs to lazy evaluation
14:32	bbloom	only it's push seqs to push evaluation
14:33	ztellman	bbloom: ok, so behaviors vs streams
14:33	bbloom	i guess so
14:33	bbloom	like i said, FRP is an overloaded and muddled term
14:33	ztellman	and I've read a small subset of the literature, so I'm just trying to line things up to terminology I've already heard
14:33	TimMc	~frp
14:33	clojurebot	FRP is Functional Reactive Programming, or maybe fiberglass reinforced plastic (and sometimes Functional Relational Programming, just to be confusing)
14:33	tomoj	a coworker decided he needed to make sure the internet (which was working) was going to work, so decided to fuck with the router. during an FRP discussion :(
14:34	ztellman	bbloom: anyway, thanks
14:34	TimMc	tomoj: We solved the whole thing. Sorry you missed it!
14:34	tomoj	the jonathan edwards stuff was "coherent reaction"?
14:35	true_droid	can one add fields to a record in runtime?
14:35	bbloom	ztellman: yeah, my pleasure. i hadn't made the zeromq analogy explicit in my head yet, so that was helpful to me too
14:36	TimMc	true_droid: Basis fields? Probably not.
14:36	true_droid	(assoc rec :newfield value)
14:36	tomoj	subscribe/unsubscribe/push seems like an unsound basis for push seqs to me
14:36	jcromartie	is there anything that does (f m {:foo g}) => {:foo (g (get m :foo))}
14:36	bbloom	tomoj: sure, i was far oversimplifying
14:37	bbloom	tomoj: also, i really dislike the suscribe/unsubscribe thing in general, since it introduces a resource management concern
14:37	hyPiRion	jcromartie: update-in
14:37	ztellman	bbloom: what's the alternative?
14:37	hyPiRion	,(update-in {:foo 1} [:foo] inc)
14:37	clojurebot	{:foo 2}
14:37	TimMc	true_droid: Sure. Try it.
14:38	bbloom	ztellman: i don't have a good one honestly. but it would look a lot more like the -> macro :-P
14:38	bbloom	ztellman: so check out this file https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp/blob/master/src/bbloom/fipp/transduce.clj
14:38	true_droid	TimMc: I'm curious how it works. If a record definition generates a Java class. Does associating new field creates a new subclass for it?
14:38	bbloom	ztellman: i'm basically leveraging the eagerness of reducers to emulate push sequences
14:39	ztellman	bbloom: transduce can't actually be a real verb, can it?
14:39	bbloom	map-state and mapcat-state enable reducers to have state
14:39	jcromartie	hyPiRion: no, I mean more like, {:foo 1 :bar "2"} {:foo str :bar #(Integer/parseInt %)} => {:foo "1" :bar 2}
14:39	bbloom	$define transduce
14:39	amalloy	$dict transduce
14:39	lazybot	amalloy: verb-transitive: To convert (energy) from one form to another.
14:39	bbloom	eh, lol
14:39	bbloom	anyway
14:39	bbloom	ztellman: the interesting bit is the state
14:40	bbloom	it's encapsulated in that atom
14:40	bbloom	but there isn't really an easy way to peek at it, which is problematic
14:40	TimMc	true_droid: It handles the basis keys specially and stores all the other key-val pairs in a regular map.
14:40	bbloom	ztellman: but look here: https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp/blob/master/src/bbloom/fipp/printer.clj#L203-L208 you'll see how i stitch together the pipeline
14:40	true_droid	TimMc: I see, thanks!
14:40	hyPiRion	jcromartie: oh
14:40	bbloom	ztellman: it's brain dead simple lazyness, but the t/each sucks out of the pull sequence & then starts pushing into the reducers
14:41	bbloom	ztellman: this is a dramatically simplified example b/c the push source is actually a pull source
14:41	bbloom	i'm pushing to the console, but i'm pulling lazily from a document
14:41	ztellman	bbloom: right
14:41	bbloom	when you have a real push source, things get messy.
14:41	amalloy	jcromartie: if you're interested in a little type theory, then that's the basic operation of an applicative functor
14:41	hyPiRion	,(merge-with #(%2 %) {:foo 1 :bar "2"} {:foo str :bar #(Integer/parseInt %)})
14:41	clojurebot	{:foo "1", :bar 2}
14:42	hyPiRion	But that's not exactly what you want, really.
14:42	ztellman	bbloom: my domain here is (broadly) network programming
14:42	amalloy	hyPiRion: it sure is clever, though
14:42	bbloom	ztellman: yeah, so i guess the idea that strikes me is that you don't have a resource management problem until you hook up your Rx chain to the source
14:42	ztellman	which means that data sources and sinks appear and disappear all the time
14:43	bbloom	if you define a chain inductively, you have to attach to the source immediately
14:43	jcromartie	amalloy: interesting
14:43	ztellman	bbloom: that assumes the chain's topology is not dependent on the messages themselves
14:43	hyPiRion	jcromartie: You could probably use reduce-kv here actually
14:43	jcromartie	hyPiRion: yeah, that's closer, I am just not sure if it already exists :P yeah
14:43	ztellman	or on other resources which you don't have control over, like client connections
14:44	ztellman	I think that trying to avoid the resource management problem narrows the useful domain pretty drastically
14:44	tieTYT	oh man: (-> req :params :length)
14:44	bbloom	ztellman: if i were to take a design crack at this, i'd ban state inside each stage of the push sequence, but give those states an ID
14:44	tieTYT	I like that better than get-in
14:44	bbloom	ztellman: i'd also ban connecting to a source or sink until the end
14:44	bbloom	and then the sources, sinks, and state would live OUTSIDE the chain
14:44	hyPiRion	,(reduce-kv (fn [m k v] (if (m k) (update-in m [k] v) m)) {:foo 1 :bar "2"} {:foo str :bar #(Integer/parseInt %)}) ; jcromartie
14:44	clojurebot	{:foo "1", :bar 2}
14:44	tieTYT	i remember when I learned get-in, I didn't know what -> was, but nwo that I do, I think using it is easier to read
14:45	hyPiRion	It was way prettier when I thought it out in my head though.
14:45	jcromartie	:)
14:45	jcromartie	I'd say that's pretty close, technically I want to throw out keys missing from the key-fn map
14:45	bbloom	ztellman: i'll be back in a bit
14:45	ztellman	bbloom: ok, I've got a question relating to that design
14:46	ztellman	but it can wait
14:46	hyPiRion	jcromartie: so a select-keys before or after
14:46	hyPiRion	do*
14:49	borkdude	in a clojure project, a .clj is not loaded until needed… right?
14:49	technomancy	borkdude: user.clj is the only thing loaded implicitly
14:50	borkdude	I mean, is it safe to put a lobos script somewhere, without the risk it being run, when no other namespaces refers it?
14:50	technomancy	borkdude: `lein compile :all` could trigger it
14:50	technomancy	don't put side-effects in the top-level
14:51	gfredericks	&foo should be a naming convention for anaphoric macros
14:51	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context
14:51	borkdude	technomancy if I define some actions as functions, that would save me then
14:51	gfredericks	or for the locals they introduce rather
14:51	technomancy	borkdude: right
14:51	amalloy	gfredericks: that's an interesting proposal. i'm surprised to find i don't immediately hate it
14:51	gfredericks	amalloy: lol
14:52	technomancy	if lobos doesn't already tell you to put your changes in defns then that's worrisome
14:52	gfredericks	it came to me earlier when the fellah wanted an arguments map
14:52	Raynes	amalloy: April fools.
14:52	hyPiRion	Raynes: I was about to write that too
14:52	technomancy	gfredericks: I saw some anaphoric elisp macros that I totally didn't hate, but I think that was because elisp's lambdas are more verbose
14:53	gfredericks	someone told me elisp doesn't have closures
14:53	hyPiRion	technomancy: lambda-as-lambdas?
14:53	technomancy	gfredericks: it didn't until like two years ago?
14:53	amalloy	technomancy: has it really been two years?
14:53	borkdude	gfredericks there is a setting that you must have at the top of an elisp file to turn lexical closures on
14:53	gfredericks	technomancy: at least it beat java?
14:54	technomancy	amalloy: not sure; I've been running trunk for so long
14:54	technomancy	gfredericks: ziiiiiiing!
14:54	hyPiRion	gfredericks: What are you saying, you have Clojure
14:54	hyPiRion	JVM got it, that's enough for me
14:54	borkdude	technomancy it tells me to do that, but to activate the changes, I want to have some reference script for when I need to execute the db creation in the future or with other dbs
14:57	hyPiRion	borkdude: it's probably safer to leave it out of your clj and java source paths
15:04	bbloom	ztellman: i haven't thought deeply about that design, so i offer nothing more than a willingness to think through it with you :-P
15:05	ztellman	bbloom: understood
15:05	ztellman	it's interesting, though, that your design is actually pretty 1:1 with how riemann is implemented, as I understand it
15:05	bbloom	haven't seen riemann. googled it. by aphyr on github?
15:06	ztellman	correct
15:06	ztellman	http://riemann.io/
15:06	bbloom	looking at it now
15:06	ztellman	he's a coworker, we've had a few design discussions along these lines
15:07	bbloom	the interesting thing is that once you hook up to a source, you've got a resource management problem
15:07	ztellman	in this case, everything flows through the same topology, so it's just a question of how many sources are feeding into the same thing
15:07	ztellman	it's a constrained use-case, so I'm not sure what works there would work elsewhere
15:08	ztellman	the question I wanted to ask had to do with something I have in lamina, though
15:08	ztellman	basically, it does split-apply-combine on streams of data
15:09	ztellman	so every time a message comes in with a new facet, a whole new chain of transforms is built on the spot
15:10	ztellman	I've spent a lot of effort on making the topology dynamic, thread-safe, able to do its own resource management, etc.
15:10	ztellman	a question I sometimes explore is whether that was strictly necessary
15:10	bbloom	ztellman: does the topology itself really need to be dynamic? or can there be a static node w/ a dynamic subtopology?
15:10	ztellman	bbloom: in this case, the latter would probably suffice
15:10	bbloom	ie can i have source->transform->sink and then transform has some state which is a subtransform
15:11	bbloom	yeah, i'd probably go with that :-P
15:11	ztellman	fair enough
15:11	bbloom	your state then just gets stored in a tree & you have a transform node that acts as a state machine which switches the underlying topology
15:12	bbloom	analogous in some way to defunctionalization :-)
15:12	bbloom	you have a higher order transform & you can realize it as a non-higher order one by inlining
15:14	ztellman	yeah, predefined chains of transforms can be useful
15:14	ztellman	I've got some stuff which will split apart chains into distributable and non-distributable pieces, so you can process streams across multiple processes
15:14	bbloom	in theory, you can just make the root transform always be such a dynamic transform
15:15	bbloom	so then you just always store the topology itself in the state atom
15:16	bbloom	which i guess is what is happening with function composition. you're storing the topology in the Fn objects
15:16	ztellman	bbloom: yeah, but that's not introspectable in any sane way
15:16	bbloom	agreed
15:16	ztellman	have a first-class representation of the topology is really useful
15:16	bbloom	sure, and by the same token, i really wish i could introspect functions lol
15:17	ztellman	I wish I could introspect on how lazy-seqs are consumed, so I can tell if someone's holding onto the head
15:17	bbloom	the nice thing about function composition is that you get an evaluator for "free"
15:18	ztellman	I guess you could do something with weak refs, there, but I'm not masochistic enough to try
15:18	borkdude	argh, why does lobos want me to have the migrations in a namespace called lobos.migrations
15:19	tomoj	but do you want to say (i'm-consuming! some-lazy-seq) or whatever?
15:19	ztellman	tomoj: no, but if you have a topology representing where data's going, you don't need to
15:19	tomoj	but then you can't just do (first coll), right?
15:19	tomoj	or can you have it both ways
15:20	bbloom	ztellman: even the haskell folks have no idea what to do about space leaks: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Memory_leak#Detection_of_memory_leaks
15:20	ztellman	tomoj: not with immutable data structures, as far as I can tell
15:21	ztellman	if you forced each consumer to have its own queue, which it consumed at its own rate, you could tell how much data is "in flight"
15:22	tomoj	why is having a first-class topology representation valuable? not disagreeing, just curious about the details
15:22	tomoj	obviously those beautiful dot graphs are great
15:22	ztellman	tomoj: I just like pretty pictures :)
15:22	bbloom	tomoj: two things
15:23	ztellman	tomoj: one is that the code isn't necessarily a direct representation of what's happening to the data
15:23	bbloom	it gives you somewhere to extract local state to
15:23	bbloom	2) it enables debugging, etc
15:23	bbloom	the topology EXISTS somewhere
15:24	bbloom	it has to be reified in some way at some level
15:24	bbloom	generally tho that level is just inside the functions as compiled
15:24	ztellman	bbloom: I defy you to infer the data topology of lazy-seqs via the object graph
15:24	bbloom	it's impossible
15:24	bbloom	lol
15:24	bbloom	but it exists
15:24	ztellman	oh, sure
15:24	bbloom	ok not impossible
15:24	tomoj	I was thinking the debugging benefit is primarily for operational issues
15:24	tomoj	like lazy seq realization
15:24	bbloom	but you'd have to decompile bytecode lol
15:25	bdesham	I have a web app running with ring and jetty. what's the best way to run the server as a background process (so that I can log out of my shell with it still running)?
15:25	ztellman	tomoj: one is that it lets you understand what your code actually describes
15:25	tomoj	but you wouldn't need a topology graph for code working with only, say, vectors?
15:25	ztellman	function composition over lazy seqs can happen all over the place
15:25	bbloom	if i had my way, everything would be introspectable at all times :-P
15:25	ztellman	the net effect of that composition is very difficult to infer
15:25	tomoj	or maybe it'd still be helpful
15:26	ztellman	tomoj, if there's only a small number of transforms, and one source, and one destination, it's maybe not all that useful
15:26	ztellman	because that can be described by a (->> s …) form
15:26	ztellman	but there are some issues there, too
15:26	tomoj	transform/source/destination seems to imply some operational trickiness
15:27	ztellman	tomoj: don't pay too much attention to my terminology
15:27	tomoj	ah, right, if source is a vector, destination is a vector, and transforms are just functions. still could be nice to get a graph I suppose..
15:28	ztellman	tomoj: basically in the simple case it doesn't harm anything
15:28	ztellman	in the complex case, it's invaluable
15:28	bbloom	aside: Rx has this concept of schedulers that is worth studying too
15:29	ztellman	it also lets you solve the resource management problem bbloom was mentioning, to an extent
15:29	bbloom	in theory, some intermediate step in the sequence can autonomously decide to emit an event w/o input from an upstream source
15:29	ztellman	since you know whether there are any remaining consumers for any given subset
15:29	bbloom	but in deeper theory, that's just getting an event from another source: a timer
15:30	ztellman	bbloom: yeah, in lamina all nodes can emit messages at any time
15:30	ztellman	using pretty much the same mechanism you describe
15:32	ztellman	anyway, tomoj, in general adding introspection capability is something you should design for
15:33	bbloom	ztellman: note however that introspection often (not always) incurs substantial runtime costs
15:33	mabes	speaking of Rx... has anyone here played around with netflix's RxJava (https://github.com/Netflix/RxJava)?
15:33	bbloom	however it is much much much harder to design OPTIONAL introspection :-)
15:33	true_droid	anyone knows of alternative clojure implementations in the works? I've heard of pyclojure
15:34	true_droid	curious to know if there's anything else that fwould ree clojure from jvm
15:34	Raynes	Whoa
15:34	ztellman	bbloom: I think this particular domain is really friendly to introspection
15:34	Raynes	That f really ran off on you didn't it true_droid
15:34	true_droid	yeah
15:34	bbloom	ztellman: assuming you're writing server software & are likely IO bound, then yeah, for sure
15:35	ztellman	bbloom: I dunno, I've made a thread-safe dynamic topology that had to acquire locks, etc. and it take about 40ns per node
15:35	ztellman	when propagating
15:35	bbloom	how many nodes do you typically have?
15:35	ztellman	well, depends on the application
15:36	bbloom	10, 100, 1000, 10000?
15:36	ztellman	the server I was describing at clojure/west had about 500k, but not every node gets every message
15:36	bbloom	that's a shitload of nodes lol
15:36	bbloom	i'm not even sure how i'd use that many nodes. is that like one per user?
15:36	ztellman	it's an extreme case, I was partially using it to stress test the mechanism
15:37	ztellman	nah, it's a streaming analysis of structured data
15:37	tgoossens	I'm looking at rich hickey's ant demo. https://gist.github.com/spacemanaki/1093917#file-ants-clj-L45 . What is the reasoning behind the following documentation of the "move" function: "moves the ant in the direction it is heading. Must be called in a
15:37	tgoossens	transaction that has verified the way is clear"
15:37	ztellman	hierarchical code timings
15:37	tgoossens	Why not put the transaction in there it if it has to be put in a transaction anyway ?
15:37	bbloom	oh right i saw your talk
15:38	bbloom	ztellman: so that's a distributed 500k nodes? or all in one process? or what?
15:38	nDuff	tgoossens: Because the check has to be inside the same transaction.
15:38	ztellman	so basically each timing is analyzed about half a dozen different ways, and within each it's getting quantiles, rolling sums, etc
15:38	ztellman	one server
15:38	tgoossens	nduff: makes sense!
15:38	ztellman	it's distributable, but in my use case it's not necessary
15:38	bbloom	ok got it
15:38	bbloom	that's a big number :-P
15:38	ztellman	they're lightweight nodes :)
15:39	tgoossens	nduff: stupid me. The documentation actually said that:p "Must be called in a
15:39	tgoossens	transaction that has verified the way is clear""
15:39	ztellman	but yeah, I'm looking at a constrained query language that will be distributable via storm, or something
15:39	bbloom	neat
15:39	ztellman	it's got promise, I think
15:40	ztellman	I tried using it to measure a full map/reduce job without client-side sampling, got about 15gb/minute via UDP packets
15:40	ztellman	which have a maximum size of 64k, btw
15:40	ztellman	that made it fall over
15:40	tieTYT	how would you count the number of 0s in a vector? I used this: (reduce #(+ %1 (if (= %2 0) 1 0)) 0 vector)
15:40	ztellman	so there's definitely a threshold at which you want to distribute this sort of analysis
15:40	amalloy	(count (filter #{0} v))
15:41	tieTYT	ah yeah that's better
15:41	tomoj	how do you represent a dynamic topology (for e.g. the purpose of rendering to dot)?
15:41	bbloom	amalloy: tieTYT: might prefer zero?
15:41	bbloom	(count (filter zero? v))
15:41	ztellman	tomoj: check out lamina.walk
15:41	amalloy	bbloom: doubtful
15:41	bbloom	heh ok then
15:41	tieTYT	so there you used a set as a function?
15:42	ztellman	tomoj: though that's just some sugar on top of the underlying data structure, no mechanism for making sense of a topology of 500k nodes
15:42	amalloy	&(zero? [])
15:42	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
15:42	pl6306	What is an easy way of generating [[year quarter] ...] e.g. [[1993 1] [1993 2] [1993 3] [1993 4] [1994 1] [1994 2] ... ?
15:42	bbloom	amalloy: oh! wow. that's annoying
15:43	nDuff	pl6306: lazy? bounded? ...?
15:43	bbloom	surely the answer to that question is "false" lol
15:43	true_droid	what does reify return? can't find it mentioned in the reify doc string at all
15:43	nDuff	pl6306: ...well, if you really want it to be a vector on the outside, it can't be lazy...
15:43	pl6306	not lazy bounded just from 1993 to 2013
15:43	hyPiRion	,(for [y (range 1993 2013) q (range 1 4)] [y q]) ;?
15:43	clojurebot	([1993 1] [1993 2] [1993 3] [1994 1] [1994 2] ...)
15:44	amalloy	,(map vector (mapcat #(repeat 4 %) (range 1993 2014)) (cycle [1 2 3 4]))
15:44	clojurebot	([1993 1] [1993 2] [1993 3] [1993 4] [1994 1] ...)
15:44	amalloy	but hyPiRion's is better
15:44	pl6306	Nice thanks!
15:44	pl6306	Starting to get the hang of this.
15:44	tomoj	ztellman: is the 'dynamic' part represented in there? or do you just call node-data at various times to see what the topology looks like at different times?
15:45	ztellman	tomoj: oh, I see, yeah, you're just sampling it
15:45	hyPiRion	pl6306: might want to replace 2013 with 2014 in my code, if you meant "up to and including 2013"
15:45	ztellman	tomoj: you can hook into callbacks for when nodes close, etc.
15:46	ztellman	tomoj: if you want a fully consistent view you can recursively lock each node in the topology
15:47	ztellman	but by default you're not getting one, because the topology doesn't change atomically
15:47	ztellman	at the global level, anyway
15:48	borkdude	hmm, lobos uses an old version of java.jdbc (1.1)
15:48	borkdude	(0.1.1)
15:49	tieTYT	i think one of the hardest things for me to take advantage of from a java/haskell background is that I can use non-booleans in an if statement
15:50	tomoj	would it be wrong to call that a bit less than first-class?
15:50	tomoj	not really sure what 'first-class' means in this context
15:50	borkdude	tieTYT many dynamically typed languages have this, javascript, common lisp, etc
15:50	tomoj	though if that's less than first-class it may be impossible to do any better :(. damned 'dynamic'
15:50	ztellman	tomoj: it depends on what you're trying to do
15:51	tieTYT	borkdude: yeah, I don't usually use that feature though
15:51	borkdude	I guess C has it too?
15:51	tgoossens	Why was the name "agent" chosen for well.. clojure agents?
15:51	ztellman	one way to "sample" the topology is to send a message through it
15:52	ztellman	the return value of (enqueue ch …) will give you the return value of each endpoint, or an async-result representing the eventual return value
15:52	ztellman	but the topology may be changing around the message as it propagates
15:52	ztellman	especially if it's queued anywhere
15:53	ztellman	which topology matters? the one that was in place when the message was enqueued, or the one that's in place when it arrives at its various destinations?
15:53	Guest93639	ok I am confused. I printed out the value of my protocol var, apparently the :impls has a bunch of identical-looking class keys with different values. how does that happen? https://www.refheap.com/paste/13179
15:53	ztellman	or the frankenstein combination of the two that the message encountered as it was being propagated?
15:54	ztellman	though again, if you want some guarantees of atomicity, those are possible if you want to lock down the topology yourself
15:54	ztellman	I haven't encountered a production situation where that's useful, though
15:55	tieTYT	where/how can I find the documentation on using a set as a function?
15:55	tomoj	would be sweet though to make an animation of the topology changing while following a message
15:55	amalloy	jweiss_: you have redefined a defrecord or deftype multiple times at the repl
15:55	brehaut	tieTYT: clojure.org probably. (set key) is equivalient to (contains? set key)
15:55	amalloy	there are now multiple versions of that class, each with a registered implementation of the protocol
15:55	brehaut	almost equiv
15:56	jweiss_	amalloy: strange since there is no way to tell them apart that i can see
15:56	amalloy	jweiss_: they have different classloaders
15:57	tieTYT	brehaut: ok
15:57	brehaut	tieTYT: http://clojure.org/data_structures#Data%20Structures-Sets
15:57	brehaut	tieTYT: very bottom
15:57	jweiss_	amalloy: do you have a recommendation to avoid this and/or fix it? just blow away the protocol var and re-compile?
15:57	amalloy	jweiss_: i recommend not caring
15:57	ztellman	tomoj: feel free to mess around with it a bit if you're curious
15:58	amalloy	it will not cause any problems whatsoever
15:58	jweiss_	amalloy: it seems to be causing problems.
15:58	ztellman	I'm probably going to extract the graphviz stuff into its own library
15:58	amalloy	jweiss_: really? what problems?
15:58	jweiss_	i'm getting an error that one of my records doesn't implement one of the protocol methods.
15:58	tieTYT	thanks
15:58	ztellman	maybe you'll build up some opinions on how to best do that
15:58	jweiss_	but it does, it's just choosing the wrong class
15:58	brehaut	tieTYT: contains? returns a bool, where as a set returns the object if its found. sets with nil or false can be funny if you use them for existence tests without using contains?
15:59	Raynes	brehaut: You. Hi.
15:59	brehaut	hi Raynes
15:59	amalloy	jweiss_: that happens if you re-evaluate the defprotocol form
15:59	tieTYT	i see
15:59	amalloy	you defined a new protocol with the same name, and the previously-existing records implement the old version, not the new one. if you re-evaluate the records, new classes will be produced that implement the new one
15:59	jweiss_	amalloy: yeah, that's why i wanted to know how to avoid/fix - so i guess i shouldn't have recompiled the namespace with that defprotocol?
16:00	amalloy	jweiss_: make sure to let technomancy know: he enjoys protocol schadenfreude
16:00	jweiss_	hm ok the defprotocol and defrecords are in the same ns, so i guess i should not eval forms, just recompile the whole ns.
16:00	Raynes	The shit.
16:01	Raynes	amalloy: That's the second time I've heard that word in two days.
16:01	Raynes	And yesterday was the first time I'd heard it in my life.
16:01	technomancy	amalloy: it's true
16:01	jweiss_	schadenfreude?
16:01	amalloy	Raynes: http://www.damninteresting.com/the-baader-meinhof-phenomenon/
16:01	Raynes	So either you're a callenbot copycat or that's a hell of a coincidence.
16:02	TimMc	...or you're a young 'un.
16:02	amalloy	Raynes: it's a word, man. people using words you don't know is just a sign you're uneducated, not a sign from god
16:03	Raynes	Thanks guys.
16:03	TimMc	<3
16:04	jweiss_	oh man this sucks, why didn't anyone warn me about protocols
16:04	technomancy	I did!
16:04	amalloy	clojurebot: technomancy is <jweiss> oh man this sucks, why didn't anyone warn me about protocols
16:04	clojurebot	c'est bon!
16:04	technomancy	you just weren't listening
16:05	technomancy	in your defense, you might not have been on IRC at the time
16:05	jweiss_	lol
16:05	jweiss_	i don't suppose i can save my fellow co-workers by somehow defonce'ing something
16:06	jweiss_	so that when they edit something else in this namespace they won't end up chasing their tail
16:06	TimMc	jweiss_: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/sweetbroandhellajeff/comoc.php?cid=001.jpg
16:06	pl6306	Why does (map #(load-sec-quarterly-master-idx (first %1) (last %1)) (vec (for [y (range 1993 2012) q (range 1 4)] [y q]))) in the REPL? But (defn load-historical-master-idx (map #(load-sec-quarterly-master-idx (first %1) (last %1)) (vec (for [y (range 1993 2012) q (range 1 4)] [y q])))) throws an IllegalArgumentException Parameter declaration map
16:06	pl6306	should be a vector clojure.core/assert-valid-fdecl?
16:06	jweiss_	TimMc: lol
16:07	amalloy	pl6306: you forgot the args to defn
16:07	technomancy	TimMc: nice
16:07	pl6306	ok so I should put in []
16:08	amalloy	TimMc: what on earth
16:08	jweiss_	i don't know which one is hella jeff, but probably the one falling down the stairs since my name is also jeff
16:09	jweiss_	although the other guy does refer to him as "bro" so maybe not.
16:12	cdh473__	i just noticed: ".../comoc.php..."
16:18	TimMc	amalloy: Intentionally bad webcomic. I think it started as a joke in the MS Paint Adventures forums.
16:21	jweiss_	alright I am still baffled. when i recompile a namespace it seems like not everything gets redefined. i still have old versions of records still laying around.
16:27	TimMc	Yeah, they should have different classloaders.
16:29	jweiss_	TimMc: should, or that's why i'm having problems?
16:30	TimMc	The latter.
16:30	TimMc	Not "this is a desirable scenario".
16:33	maacl	Considering a porting the GUI part of ants.clj to Clojurescript/canvas and back it by a Clojure backend. Would fetch (by Chris Granger) be my best choice for syncing the world from the backend to the frontend?
16:35	jweiss_	TimMc: the repl seems to be telling me that both the protocol impl key and the new record i just created, have teh same classloader. and the impl also has a definition for the :product method. yet when i try to call it, it doesn't work
16:35	jweiss_	https://www.refheap.com/paste/13184
16:36	jweiss_	i wonder if this has anything to do with using keywords as protocol method implementations?
16:36	jweiss_	i mean, they are functions, so i figured that should be fine.
16:36	sandbags	clojure newb here, is there a legitimate reason why (load-file "path/to/file.clj") might hang for minutes at a time?
16:36	brehaut	(while true) is a toplevel form
16:36	sandbags	oh, I googled up "load-file" so I could totally be doing this wrong... i'm in a lein reply btw
16:36	jweiss_	not legitimate, no
16:37	sandbags	jweiss_: okay, this perhaps explains why LightTable has stopped working for me
16:37	sandbags	thanks
16:37	jweiss_	last i checked it wasn't compiled in a way that would run on my system
16:37	sandbags	is there any kind of logging that i can get clojure to do that might let me figure out why
16:38	sandbags	i note in passing that, until about 7-8 hours ago, i wasn't having a problem
16:38	technomancy	sandbags: binary search is your best bet
16:38	sandbags	technomancy: you're thinking it's something about my source file?
16:38	technomancy	sandbags: if it's happening in lein repl, yeah. if it's in light table it could be something else.
16:38	jweiss_	eval forms one at a time in that file :)
16:39	technomancy	sandbags: also: load-file is very low-level; you should use require
16:39	sandbags	technomancy: LT was hanging on starting up a repl for the file, CG asked me to try in lein-repl
16:39	sandbags	lein-repl starts
16:39	sandbags	but then i figured that probably wasn't testing anything much
16:39	sandbags	ah, ok
16:41	scottj	maacl: maybe look at pedestal
16:42	maacl	scottj: thanks, although looks heavy for just keeping a datastructure in sync
16:44	sandbags	IIReadC clojure returning 'nil' signifies success, right?
16:44	sandbags	returning nil from a funciton such as 'require' i mean
16:45	amalloy	sandbags: more like "no meaningful return value"
16:45	amalloy	generally it means nothing broke, though. certainly that's true for require and its friends
16:45	sandbags	thanks
16:49	Bronsa	sandbags: that's not always true though http://sprunge.us/EQVL
16:49	TimMc	sandbags: Clojure functions have to return something. (Or throw an exception, or call System/exit, I suppose...) If your function doesn't have anything useful to return, nil is the standard thing o use.
16:50	sandbags	thanks guys
16:55	sandbags	okay so definitely something in the code hanging the repl, probably i have a bracket misplaced or something
16:55	sandbags	although... i'd expect some kind of syntax error or something
16:56	amalloy	sandbags: well, as i think someone suggested earlier, you might have (while true) at the top-level or something like that. or light table could have a bug; it would hardly be the first
16:57	sandbags	https://gist.github.com/mmower/2fb5f8ba95382084b4e5
16:57	sandbags	amalloy: it's not LT, i'm in pure lein repl now
16:57	sandbags	without the comments, this is hanging my repl
16:58	nDuff	You're decrementing i, but testing n
16:58	nDuff	so, yes, no surprise that that's hanging.
16:58	sandbags	ah, damn
16:58	amalloy	nDuff: he's not calling that function, allegedly
16:58	amalloy	oh, but the println is there
16:58	nDuff	Exactly.
16:58	sandbags	yeah
16:58	sandbags	the println
16:58	sandbags	which is probably what i added that triggered this whole thing
16:59	amalloy	sandbags: i don't know what LT recommends, but in any other clojure setup it's a bad idea to do anything but define functions at the topmost level
16:59	sandbags	but is so seemingly innocuous an action that when LT started to ahng
16:59	sandbags	amalloy: i was really just playing around but, yes, i can see why this is recommended :)
16:59	nDuff	I _am_ somewhat surprised that LT doesn't have an easy way to interrupt a runaway execution
16:59	nDuff	(which, for instance, emacs+nrepl will do easily)
17:00	sandbags	well the thing is in LT it looked like it was still starting the repl
17:00	Glenjamin_	every time i try LT it seems to hang for an unclear reason
17:00	sandbags	Glenjamin_: well it is 0.3 :)
17:00	Glenjamin	yeah, i intend to keep coming back to it
17:01	sandbags	in this case I am not sure what LT could do, since the nREPL underneath it has hung
17:01	sandbags	well, been hung
17:01	jweiss_	ok i seem to be making headway here, having one protocol function point to another doesn't seem to work
17:02	jweiss_	eg (defprotocol MyProto (foo [x]) (bar [x])) (extend My.Class {:foo identity :bar foo})
17:03	dsop	hmm sqlkorma doesnt convert types and retursn everything as strings?
17:03	jweiss_	(bar (MyClass. "baz")) -> IllegalArgumentException No implementation of method: :foo of protocol: #'MyProto found for class MyClass.
17:04	jweiss_	but (foo (MyClass. "baz")) works.
17:05	luisgabriel	I'm having some issues related to performance on a simple example that I'm writting in clojure. probably I'm doing something very wrong. If someone can help me, here is the code: https://gist.github.com/luisgabriel/5287722
17:07	luisgabriel	I'm trying to implement a simple search engine for text files
17:07	jweiss_	doh... /me should have referred to the protocol function using the var. (extend My.Class MyProto {:foo identity :bar #'foo})
17:07	jweiss_	that works
17:08	amalloy	jweiss_: ah, now that sounds like a protocol behavior that i consider a bug. if you capture a protocol function's value at the top level (as opposed to its var), then that function doesn't get updated
17:09	dsop	hmm okay korma doe sconvert the types :)
17:10	callenbot	I've come to realize that scala and go represent two extremes of design principles.
17:10	jweiss_	amalloy: i'm not sure how it should work
17:11	jweiss_	in this case, foo is a protocol function and at the time it's being extended there was no implementation for that type.
17:23	dsop	whats the easierst way if i have two list of intergers to find the disjoint set?
17:24	TimMc	dsop: Use some clojure.set operations.
17:25	dsop	TimMc: ah clojure.set/difference, thx
17:52	inhortte	Does anyone here know how to properly include local jars in a project with leningen2?
17:54	amalloy	~repeatability
17:54	clojurebot	repeatability is crucial for builds, see https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Repeatability
17:55	technomancy	inhortte: lein-localrepo or s3-wagon-private depending on whether you're doing real work or just playing around
18:01	inhortte	technomancy -> I'm just playing around for now. :)
18:02	technomancy	localrepo is prolly fine
18:02	inhortte	I'll try lein-localrepo
18:02	technomancy	but also submit a bug report to whoever is giving you a jar that's not in a repo
18:02	technomancy	because that's crazy
18:04	inhortte	technomancy -> it's this: https://github.com/macourtney/clj-crypto ... I wanted to play around with 'masques' (https://github.com/macourtney/masques).
18:04	technomancy	oh, if it's a clojure project you can just do `lein install`
18:06	inhortte	technomancy -> I am not going to read a bit of lein documentation. :)
18:06	antares_	shipped Money 1.0, a tiny library for dealing with moneyz and currencies http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/04/02/introducing-clojurewerkz-money/
18:08	pmonks	Step 1: develop Money 1.0
18:08	pmonks	Step 2: ??
18:08	lazybot	pmonks: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
18:08	pmonks	Step 3: PROFIT!!!1
18:09	antares_	pmonks: my last name is Gnome
18:20	hyPiRion	The leprechaun in action.
18:20	technomancy	money 1.0? I dunno man; everyone knows it's not a good idea to use floats for currency. =)
18:20	antares_	technomancy: there is a BigMoney type :)
18:20	technomancy	heh; nice
18:22	hyPiRion	Still doesn't fix the issue, does it?
18:22	hyPiRion	,(/ 1M 3M)
18:22	clojurebot	#<ArithmeticException java.lang.ArithmeticException: Non-terminating decimal expansion; no exact representable decimal result.>
18:23	technomancy	well, dividing money by money doesn't make sense
18:23	antares_	hyPiRion: it's Java at the core and it uses rounding modes for division, if that answers your question
18:23	hyPiRion	ah
18:23	antares_	all potentially lossy operations require you to specify a rounding mode and scale
18:23	hyPiRion	technomancy: by people, perhaps?
18:23	technomancy	hyPiRion: surely an integer?
18:25	hyPiRion	technomancy: sure, but ##(/ 1M 3) would still not be representable
18:25	lazybot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: Non-terminating decimal expansion; no exact representable decimal result.
18:25	technomancy	oh, true
18:30	inhortte	technomancy -> thanks, by the way. it worked fine.
18:32	technomancy	cool
18:36	angusiguess	Is there any clear reason this wouldn't be displaying the image I load? It seems to get the dimensions right. https://gist.github.com/angusiguess/26ec9f33eaefcc2d9d8d
18:36	si14	what's the meaning of "NullPointerException [trace missing]"?
18:38	technomancy	si14: I think that's a bug in the JVM's tiered compiler
18:38	amalloy	si14: that is the clojure runtime letting you know you're going to be sad when you try to debug
18:39	si14	https://gist.github.com/si14/6781aa479e696b5690b9 here is the code
18:39	technomancy	technomancy/leiningen#1025
18:39	lazybot	-XX:+TieredCompilation destroys tracebacks -- https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1025 is closed
18:40	si14	it will be somewhat OK if I'll see that "Hello world" printout
18:40	si14	but I do not
18:41	technomancy	try disabling tiered compilation?
18:47	si14	but I still don't get why that printout is missing.
18:48	technomancy	si14: I guess it's not in the comments there, but someone traced it down to a bug in the JVM
18:49	si14	technomancy: "it" = ?
18:50	technomancy	the lack of a stack trace
18:50	si14	technomancy: can you take a look at that snippet please?
18:51	technomancy	hm; that's very strange
18:51	si14	when I uncomment line 38 I get NPE (thanks to your advice it's now somewhat traced), but no printout.
19:41	si14	technomancy: thanks for the help, anyway :)
19:47	Oddman	what's everyone's preferred library for web, when dealing with clojure?
19:47	Oddman	and fav mysql lib?
19:49	technomancy	Oddman: I don't know if anyone in here will admit to using mysql by choice =)
19:49	Oddman	clojure community is too elite for it?
19:50	Oddman	what's the storage medium of choice here?
19:50	technomancy	but clojure.java.jdbc in theory connects you to any DB supported by JDBC
19:51	Oddman	gotcha. And is that an ORM solution, or a preferred solution to an ORM implementation?
19:51	Oddman	new to java, clojure.etc. so starting from scratch :P
19:51	technomancy	it's not an ORM, but it's a good starting point
19:52	Oddman	doesn't need to be an ORM, just curious as to options available
19:52	Oddman	and for web - what is the preferred framework?
19:52	Oddman	been looking at compojure, seems quite light
19:52	technomancy	it's the best
19:53	Oddman	heh
19:55	scottj	Oddman: maybe look at korma, clojureql, and pedestal if you want something else.
20:00	Oddman	having a look at clojureql, this irks me:
20:00	Oddman	SELECT * FROM (SELECT users.* FROM users ORDER BY users.id asc) ORDER BY users.id desc
20:00	Oddman	when calling multiple sorts
20:01	Oddman	=\
20:13	callenbot	http://gearon.blogspot.com/2013/03/clojurescript-and-nodejs.html
20:37	xeqi	Glenjamin: have you found any other bugs with peridot? considering releasing a new version once I merge the two pull requests
21:53	tomoj	hmm, if reifying vars in cljs (even just :dynamic ones) is unacceptable due to performance reasons, how about just adding a new metadata flag :reified or :var or something?
21:54	tomoj	then if you want bound-fn to preserve your var you have to ask for it
21:55	tomoj	guess it would be pretty shitty to have some vars reified and some not
21:56	brehaut	tomoj: that authentic javascript experience :/
21:56	tomoj	but is dnolen ever going to say something other than "can't reify vars, performance cost" or "can't keep binding frames for :dynamic vars, performance cost"
21:56	tomoj	are those performance problems even solvable?
21:57	tomoj	only other option I see is some weird hack to get bound-fn working, to which dnolen will probably still say "performance cost"
21:58	gfredericks	tomoj: when you're running on a crazy-high-level host like JS there's a limit to how much further you can pile abstractions
21:58	tomoj	are you suggesting we may never get bound-fn?
21:58	callenbot	maybe clojurescript should be ported to asm JS
21:58	callenbot	for SPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED
21:59	Oddman	lol
21:59	tomoj	that seems unacceptable, though apparently dnolen disagrees, and he probably understands better than I..
21:59	gfredericks	tomoj: that wouldn't surprise me, but I definitely don't have my head in the relevant issues, nor know enough about JS
21:59	gfredericks	tomoj: cljs won't even get decent numerics
21:59	callenbot	there's already an llvm clojure project, just point, aim at emscripten, and fire!
21:59	brehaut	lets have a pool: how long will it take dnolen to write a fast generational collector in JS
22:00	callenbot	brehaut: I'll take Never for $1000 Trebek.
22:00	tomoj	gfredericks: decent numerics?
22:00	callenbot	tomoj: it's all 754
22:00	gfredericks	tomoj: anything besides floats
22:00	callenbot	technically 32-bit unsigned ints are allowed to fly past
22:01	callenbot	but anything larger is gonna be a double.
22:01	tomoj	sure
22:01	tomoj	but that seems irrelevant :)
22:01	callenbot	JUS SAYIN
22:01	gfredericks	tomoj: it's something you'd want in a language but can't get cuz speedz
22:01	tomoj	I mean, yeah, there are some nice things we will never get
22:02	tomoj	but is bound-fn one of them?
22:02	tomoj	if so,
22:02	tomoj	I dunno. it seems like a big problem
22:02	gfredericks	Raynes: okay I got codez this time
22:03	callenbot	tomoj: cljs is just a house of pain built on an indian graveyard called JavaScript.
22:03	gfredericks	Raynes: https://www.refheap.com/paste/13189
22:03	callenbot	tomoj: the bedsheets are okay if you ignore the blood.
22:04	tomoj	often the only option will be to write manual bound-fns for specific vars of interest
22:04	gfredericks	tomoj: you do a lot of dynamic vars in cljs?
22:04	tomoj	not a lot
22:04	gfredericks	tomoj: also a macro could make that as easy as (bound-fn [foo bar] ...fn stuff...)
22:05	tomoj	right, I guess it's not that big of a problem
22:06	tomoj	cljs.test and any async framework can manually do that for the vars they need
22:06	tomoj	then the user just gets the pain of dealing with any other vars they need
22:06	gfredericks	could you do this without reified vars?
22:06	gfredericks	have binding log what it's doing somewhere?
22:06	gfredericks	so bound-fn knows what vars are active?
22:07	gfredericks	sounds like that wouldn't affect normal perf
22:08	gfredericks	I'm assuming you didn't want some kind of actual thread-local thing
22:08	tomoj	that's what I've been trying to figure out, I think it should be possible
22:08	tomoj	but not at no perf cost
22:08	gfredericks	are there JS runtimes where that's meaningful?
22:08	tomoj	unless you have a :bindable flag or whatever like I suggested above
22:08	gfredericks	tomoj: what's the perf cost?
22:09	tomoj	anyone using :dynamic who doesn't need bound-fn will suffer needlessly
22:09	gfredericks	Raynes: oh apparently I need to pass the zipper to l/fragment for some reason
22:09	tomoj	if you do it for all :dynamic (dnolen has already pointed out that this is a concern)
22:10	gfredericks	tomoj: but only at the time they use binding, right?
22:10	tomoj	right, or if they set!
22:10	gfredericks	it just makes binding itself a little slower?
22:10	gfredericks	oh hm
22:10	gfredericks	set! is supposed to only affect the local frame isn't it
22:10	tomoj	theoretically, which is another wrinkle
22:10	gfredericks	okay screw it all I give up
22:11	tomoj	since you probably don't want to change cljs so that people set!'ing without binding get broken (though I'd be fine with it..)
22:13	tomoj	I guess I can accept that users will have to manually handle their own vars
22:14	technomancy	you guys figure out that stuff before I find myself in the precarious position of needing to run code on a JS runtime, k?
22:14	tomoj	https://www.refheap.com/paste/1631777863115a2e1e8ea16c9
22:14	tomoj	yeah, macro would be nice..
22:15	tomoj	maybe you just tell your 'executor' which vars to carry
22:16	gfredericks	Raynes: I take it back again I have no idea what I'm doing
22:19	tomoj	actually, that would really suck
22:21	tomoj	it would force knowledge about dynamic vars to all be complected together in places that shouldn't care at all?
22:23	tomoj	any place you use bound-fn, you have to know about all the vars you're in the _dynamic extent_ of?
22:28	tomoj	I'm gonna go for a var flag and no reification
22:29	howdynihao	whats a good / popular kata?
22:29	brehaut	4clojure.org
22:31	brum	how long would it take one of you to do a problem like this.. http://www.4clojure.com/problem/77
22:32	howdynihao	that site is nice, but i was looking for something i could git clone
22:32	howdynihao	and run the tests and actually edit the code
22:32	howdynihao	instead of the 'fill in the blank'
22:33	gfredericks	brum: a few minutes?
22:33	brehaut	brum: that would probably depend on how familiar you are with the standard lib and the features of for
22:34	brehaut	actually, you might not even need for for that one
22:34	howdynihao	https://github.com/gigasquid/yellow_belt_clojure_katas there is this, but its old, and it doesnt run as is, (probably simple to fix)
22:35	brum	i would take the first word and compare it to every other word, add the word to the array if it had all the same letters
22:35	brehaut	and gigasquid is a 4clojure contributor now
22:35	brum	remove the first word from the list and then do the same with the new first word
22:35	gfredericks	brehaut: brum: got it first try
22:36	howdynihao	i would like to note, catnip is very cool
22:36	gfredericks	seven lines
22:36	brum	let me see
22:36	gfredericks	https://www.refheap.com/paste/13193
22:37	brum	that's some fancy clojure knowledge
22:37	gfredericks	like brehaut said, familiarity with the standard lib
22:37	brehaut	my solution was apparently #(set (for [[_ s] (group-by frequencies %) :when (next s)] (set s)))
22:38	brehaut	which is kinda awkward
22:38	brum	how long have you been programming for
22:38	brum	gfredericks: brehaut
22:38	gfredericks	a decade or so
22:38	brehaut	i dont know
23:26	rocco65536	c-c , in emacs is giving me a compiler error
23:26	rocco65536	does anyone know what could be the matter?
23:26	jack_rabbit	What's the error?
23:27	rocco65536	class not found
23:27	rocco65536	am I supposed to run test via lein?
23:28	rocco65536	I tried adding clojure to classpath but it didn't work
23:28	rocco65536	maybe this test mode in emacs is outdated?
23:31	jhn	rocco65536: does it work from the command line when you do `lein test`?
23:32	fbernier	what's ->>
23:32	fbernier	?
23:32	rocco65536	yes lein completes the test
23:33	rocco65536	it just doesn't work in emacs
23:33	rocco65536	it can't find clojure.test.mode
23:35	jhn	rocco65536: did you install via marmalade or melpa?
23:36	rocco65536	the former
23:36	technomancy	rocco65536: clojure-test-mode 2.x needs nrepl.el; 1.x uses slime
23:37	rocco65536	I am using nrepl
23:37	technomancy	hm; weird
23:37	rocco65536	basically I just followed the tutorial here http://clojure-doc.org/articles/tutorials/emacs.html
23:37	technomancy	you can do (run-tests) in the repl as a workaround
23:38	rocco65536	unable to resolve run-tests
23:39	rocco65536	which namespace should I be in to run this
23:39	technomancy	rocco65536: your repl would need to be in your test namespace
23:40	rocco65536	ok now it works