#clojure – 2013-03-18

2013-03-18

00:36	ambrosebs	jonasen: wow termito looks sweet!
00:36	ambrosebs	Can it handle global scope?
00:56	jonasen	ambrosebs: what do you mean?
00:57	ambrosebs	jonasen: Do we have the usual issues with assuming + means clojure.core/+?
00:59	jonasen	ambrosebs: defrules uses bblooms backtick so it doesn't ns expand symbols. But it could just as well use clojures syntax quote
01:00	ambrosebs	jonasen: You'd usually be running termito on fully macroexpanded/qualified forms though right? It would get pretty unpredictable otherwise.
01:00	jonasen	ambrosebs: depends entirely on the use case.
01:01	ambrosebs	jonasen: ok. I don't understand why you wouldn't want a fully macroexpanded form.
01:02	ambrosebs	or when, rather.
01:02	jonasen	ambrosebs: maybe your usecase is not transforming clojure code but e.g. hiccup data structures or something similar
01:02	ambrosebs	jonasen: ok, got it.
01:03	jonasen	ambrosebs: think EDN and not Clojure :)
01:03	ambrosebs	so termito is general enough not to care :)
01:04	ambrosebs	My immediate thought was to use jvm.tools.analyzer and use emit-form to convert an AST to a form to play with.
01:10	tomoj	whoa, I hadn't noticed emit-form
01:43	muhoo	ok, so wait. if i'm using a pooled data source, do i have to do this with-query-results and doall nonsense? can i have queries which return actual lazy sequences?
01:44	muhoo	my understanding is that the reason you have to doall is because by the time the with-connection + with-query-results returns, the connection might be closed. if it's a persistent connection though...
01:56	ambrosebs	tomoj: hehe emit-form is pretty cool
02:13	tomoj	I suppose tying the knot between an inner destructuring binding and its root bindings' expr is.. just not clojurey :(
02:13	tomoj	s/s'/'s/
02:15	ambrosebs	tomoj: is this to track where a particular destructuring originated from?
02:18	tomoj	(let [[_ & rest] (cons 1 (lazy-seq rest))] ...), in spirit
02:26	muhoo	um, where is the edn reader? (require 'clojure.edn) fails, and this is on 1.5.1
02:26	Raynes	I thought tools.reader was the only edn reader
02:27	Raynes	Apparently I'm dumb though, so disregard me.
02:28	muhoo	aha, no. godddddaaaaaaaaammmmnnn dependency hell. somehow my explicit including clojure 1.5.1 got ignored; it's still 1.4.0 :-/
02:29	muhoo	lein deps :tree to the rescue
02:34	muhoo	Raynes: naw, it's joyful happy maven fun
02:34	muhoo	somehow [org.clojure/clojure "1.5.1"] means "just ignore this completely and use 1.4.0", and lein-pedantic has no problem with that either
02:35	ambrosebs	tomoj: to rewrite it to (let [rest (lazy-seq rest)] ...)? The useless (rest (cons 1 (lazy-seq rest)) sounds like something that can be picked up from the macroexpansion.
02:36	Raynes	ambrosebs: How are things?
02:36	ambrosebs	Raynes: delightful ;)
02:36	ambrosebs	Raynes: did you make it to Clojure West?
02:37	Raynes	ambrosebs: No.
02:37	Raynes	I should change my nickname to Raynesnotatcljwest
02:37	Raynes	At least 4 people have asked me on separate occasions today. :P
02:37	muhoo	Raynes: i was just going to suggest that
02:37	ambrosebs	Raynes: sounds depressing :( hehe
02:38	ambrosebs	Raynes: it's because we love you
02:38	muhoo	adding dependencies to a project.clj is kind of like building a house of cards
02:39	muhoo	i never know which one will cause the whole thing to come crashing down
02:54	tomoj	ambrosebs: hmm
02:54	tomoj	where's the 1 come from? :)
02:54	tomoj	oh
02:54	tomoj	I think I wrote it wrong
02:59	amalloy	Raynes: change it to Guest
02:59	Raynes	ambrosebs: I think I fixed that btw.
02:59	Raynes	Er, amalloy.
03:00	Raynes	Pretty sure Textual suddenly decided my name should be Guest.
03:08	muhoo	well... i learned me somethin new. if org.clojure/clojure is defined in profiles.clj, then no matter what is in project.clj, it gets overwritten
04:23	tgoossens	i find it sometimes difficult finding the right granularity for atoms
04:23	tgoossens	maybe because i'm trying to think OO too much?
04:23	tgoossens	I have a simulator where different robots can be in
04:27	tgoossens	is an atom in an atom unacceptable?
04:28	tgoossens	probably too complex
04:32	drorbemet
04:32	pyykkis	tgoossens: I'd start by putting the whole world in one atom
04:32	tgoossens	that' s what i'm trying to do now
04:33	tgoossens	every robot can receive a different command. asynchronously (so i guess agents might be useful here)
04:34	pyykkis	tgoossens: have you seen http://vimeo.com/8672404
04:34	tgoossens	nope
04:35	tgoossens	bookmarked it :)
04:36	tgoossens	will certainly watch it
04:36	tgoossens	my current idea was
04:36	tgoossens	A robot must be assigned an action-id.
04:36	tgoossens	This id will be mapped on a function (mutator) that will
04:36	tgoossens	mutate a robot (producing the next value) External users can change this mutator function, providing a way to give and change commands
04:38	tgoossens	its gonnna be difficult :p
04:38	tgoossens	i made such a system in java recently. But i'm trying to rethink it in clojure
04:41	magnars	any way to tell midje that [1 2 3] and '(1 2 3) are not equal, since they certainly aren't interchangeable? Testing frameworks should not be lax in their equality checks.
05:02	scottj	magnars: it probably uses =, which considers them equal
05:05	magnars	scottj: which is bad on so many levels, especially for a language that prides itself for being simple
05:05	noidi	magnars, try (just '(1 2 3))
05:06	magnars	noidi: thanks, I'll give that a shot
05:06	noidi	I'm not sure, but I think it does exact matching
05:07	noidi	sorry, it seems to do fuzzy matching as well :P
05:09	magnars	yeah :P
05:11	noidi	magnars, there's also `exactly`
05:12	noidi	it seems to do a equality check using `=`, so it should forego _some_ magic behavior
05:12	noidi	,(= '(1 2 3) [1 2 3])
05:12	clojurebot	true
05:13	noidi	but due to clojure's equality partitions, = is not enough...
05:15	Chousuke	magnars: you should probably explicitly test for vector-ness instead of strict equality.
05:30	noidi	magnars, checking the return type of a function is probably a better fit for core.typed or a design by contract
05:31	noidi	e.g. (defn my-fn [] {:post [(vector? %)]} ...)
05:32	noidi	or (ann my-fn [-> (Vector Long)])
06:33	wjlroe	Does anyone know why on OS X I get an icon in my dock for clojure.main when I launch `lein ring server`?
06:37	andrewmcveigh\|w	wjlroe: You've probably got some java GUI stuff somewhere in your dependencies. You can get rid of it with :jvm-opts ["-Djava.awt.headless=true"] in your project.clj
06:37	andrewmcveigh\|w	or at least, that works for me.
06:37	wjlroe	andrewmcveigh\|w: ah thanks
06:38	andrewmcveigh\|w	wjlroe: no probs
06:40	wjlroe	andrewmcveigh\|w: it was even simpler. `lein ring server-headless`. silly me, it was calling open on the url so it would open in my browser (must have involved some guy library as you said)
06:40	wjlroe	gui - not guy
06:40	wjlroe	damn autocorrect
06:45	wink	ah yeah, too slow :P was about to sugghest -headless
06:45	andrewmcveigh\|w	wjlroe: Ah, yeah. Forgot about server-headless, don't really use that command.
09:07	nonuby	is there a shortcut for (first (sort-by fn col))
09:08	joegallo	i can't think of one offhand -- that seems pretty short already, though ;)
09:08	clgv	nonuby: it's not that long ;)
09:09	clgv	nonuby: something like `min` or `max` might fit if you sort numbers there
09:09	nonuby	they are maps, but yep it is, sometimes i need to think before i ask
09:09	ayia	i want to generate chars, is there any function like (range "a" "z")?
09:10	pjstadig	nonuby: using a sorted-map may make it shorter (character wise) and maybe more performant
09:10	nonuby	pjstadig, will take a look
09:19	joegallo	,(take 5 (map char (range (int \a) (int \z)))
09:19	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
09:19	joegallo	,(take 5 (map char (range (int \a) (int \z))))(
09:19	clojurebot	(\a \b \c \d \e)
09:20	joegallo	which is clever enough, but not very short (and also doesn't work, considering what range does exactly)
09:21	ucb	nonuby: (def first-by (comp first sort-by))
09:21	nonuby	nice
09:22	nonuby	when use common functions and macros like that do you keep them in a namespace, in a project, or just duplicate where required. reminds me of the .net days of every company had Acme.Enterprise.Commons
09:25	ucb	nonuby: what do you mean? your own common operations or what?
09:26	nonuby	functions that are handy buy omitted by clojure.core like first-by, any? etc..
09:31	ticking	hey, is there a string protocol, I can't seem to find one and (sadly) have to implement a new string type
09:31	joegallo	ticking: what's the problem you're trying to solve -- perhaps you've decided on a particular solution prematurely
09:32	joegallo	regarding your precise question, though, the answer is no, there isn't a string protocol. java strings are java strings.
09:32	joegallo	(and it's a final class, you can't extend it.)
09:33	ticking	joegallo, I have to process OCR XML documents, the representation in those is (horrible) to store words and lines as lists of characters with separator elements, where each character is associated with a bouding box
09:34	joegallo	okay, that sounds like a problem -- what thinking has led you down the path of trying to create a new string type?
09:34	ticking	I want to keep my core page, character and word processing functions as clean and generic as possible, thus working with regular strings
09:34	augustl	can I put ref reads in a dosync in order to get a synchronized view of multiple refs?
09:35	joegallo	ticking: i see
09:35	ticking	most of the functions do stuff like, find word in dictionary and substitute characters
09:35	llasram	augustl: That would in fact be the raison d'etre of refs
09:36	joegallo	ticking: have you ruled out just turning your objects into a plain old java String or StringBuilder and banging on that?
09:37	ticking	joegallo, so my thought was to, rather than dragging all that burden, through all my functions, thus complicating them, to implement a type that implements the string protocol (if there was one ^^) that takes care of handling all the bouding boxes and other meta info
09:38	joegallo	gotcha. here's my quick advice -- that's cutting pretty hard against the grain of the jvm, you might want to reconsider that approach.
09:38	ticking	joegallo yeah the problem is that I have to emit them into a document where everyhing is as preserved as possible after I'm done with them ^^
09:38	joegallo	ah, gotcha
09:38	ticking	I'm all ears ^^
09:39	joegallo	sadly, i don't have much constructive advice, just "uhhhh, that sounds like a bad idea" ;)
09:39	pjstadig	ticking: there's not a string protocol, but there is a sequence abstraction
09:39	pjstadig	can you not just process sequences?
09:39	ticking	pjstadig, I'm using regex for the matching of similar words ^^
09:40	pjstadig	ticking: can the regexes be replaced with sequence functions like take, drop, take-while, etc.?
09:41	augustl	llasram: I see :)
09:41	augustl	it could have been that refs were for coordinated writes only, nice to know they're also good for coordinated reads
09:41	ticking	pjstadig, I'm not shure, I could try
09:42	pjstadig	augustl: the STM is an MVCC transaction system, so it gives you a snapshot view of ref-world for both reads and writes
09:43	ticking	joegallo, thanks nevertheless ^^
09:44	ticking	pjstadig, thanks I'll probably try that, seems to be one of those cases where one gets bitten by the java heritage
09:46	augustl	I guess I'm asking more about best practices than possibilities. For all I know, a dosync that only does reads is frowned upon :)
09:46	pjstadig	augustl: i wouldn't frown upon it :)
09:46	augustl	in other words, snapshot view for reads is only "supposed" to be used for reading inside dosyncs where you also do writes
09:47	pjstadig	I think you would only need to dosync around refs for a consistent read if you are also modifying them in some way
09:47	pjstadig	if you just have some global things you want to read consistently and they never change, you could use vars or atoms or something
09:47	augustl	they are constantly modified
09:48	pjstadig	so, yeah, you would need a dosync to read consistently
09:48	augustl	so sequential dereferencing would lead to a inconsistent view of the multiple refs
09:48	pjstadig	right
09:48	augustl	deref it is! :)
09:48	pjstadig	augustl: this is a right use of dosync, and you have my blessing
09:49	augustl	anyone else doing some early morning hacking before Clojure West starts in 2 hours? :)
09:49	augustl	pjstadig: \o/
09:49	pjstadig	:( i wish i was there
09:49	ejackson	pjstadig: you're not alone :(
09:49	augustl	there are still tickets available I think :P
09:49	pjstadig	augustl: haha
09:52	augustl	which blows my mind, the lineup is great. I wonder why they didn't sell out
09:52	ticking	pjstadig, looks like regex can handle CharSequences, I'll take a look at how that works out ^^
09:52	augustl	many of my norwegian friends didn't go since it's such a long flight from europe, much longer than to the conj in november..
09:52	pjstadig	ticking: oh interesting
09:52	ticking	pjstadig, or did you mean the clojure sequence abstraction?
09:53	pjstadig	ticking: not that it would help you, but i wonder if one could get clojure's sequences to extend CharSequence, then you could theoretically do regexen against an arbitrary sequence of characters
09:53	pjstadig	perhaps even a lazy sequence
09:53	pjstadig	hmm
09:54	ticking	pjstadig that would be beyond awesome
09:54	pjstadig	ticking: if you wanted to be able to run a regex against your OCR sequence you might be able to deftype or defrecord something that extends CharSequence
09:54	pjstadig	but that seems like a pretty big hammer
09:56	ticking	pjstadig that whole ocr format is a giant bug, a hammer seems like the apropriate tool ^^
09:56	pjstadig	could be :)
09:59	hyPiRion	augustl: yeah, it's a long way from Norway.
09:59	hyPiRion	But it's mostly about the price, since we're talking about at least ~1k in travel expenses
10:02	ejackson	i calculated more from the UK
10:02	ejackson	one day
10:04	hyPiRion	It's about 1k euro in plane tickets
10:04	hyPiRion	at least from here
10:06	drorbemet	(map list (partition-all 3 (range 9)))
10:06	drorbemet	Hi, how do I lift the lists up, out of the enclosing list so I can call map list on those?
10:06	drorbemet	(((0 1 2)) ((3 4 5)) ((6 7 8)))
10:08	hyPiRion	,(mapcat list (partition-all 3 (range 9))) ; ?
10:08	clojurebot	((0 1 2) (3 4 5) (6 7 8))
10:09	hyPiRion	oh, you want to map each element in the newly partitioned lists
10:09	drorbemet	Not this (((0 1 2)) ((3 4 5)) ((6 7 8))) but like this ((0 1 2) (3 4 5) (6 7 8))
10:09	drorbemet	It is called lifting as far as I remember but with that term I didn't find the corresponding function in the Clojure libs.
10:09	matthavener	(map first l) ?
10:09	drorbemet	flatten is to much though
10:10	hyPiRion	,(map (partial map list) (partition-all 3 (range 9)))
10:10	clojurebot	(((0) (1) (2)) ((3) (4) (5)) ((6) (7) (8)))
10:10	hyPiRion	I suspect.
10:10	hyPiRion	,(mapcat (partial map list) (partition-all 3 (range 9))) ; It has to be some of these
10:10	clojurebot	((0) (1) (2) (3) (4) ...)
10:10	matthavener	,(map first '(((0 1 2)) ((3 4 5)) ((6 7 8))))
10:10	clojurebot	((0 1 2) (3 4 5) (6 7 8))
10:11	hyPiRion	oh, drorbemet, that's mapcat
10:11	drorbemet	hyPiRion: I want to zip the lists comming from partition-all
10:11	drorbemet	mapcat? ok I try it
10:11	hyPiRion	,(mapcat list (partition-all 3 (range 9))) ; <<- ?
10:11	clojurebot	((0 1 2) (3 4 5) (6 7 8))
10:12	hyPiRion	Is that what you want, or do you want to perform some function on 0, 3 and 6, etc?
10:12	drorbemet	Ah, thanks mapcat does lifting ok, thanks :-)
10:13	drorbemet	hyPiRion: yes, thanks
10:13	Chousuke	,(apply map + (partition 3 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9]))
10:13	clojurebot	(12 15 18)
10:14	augustl	are there any non-macro ways to invoke methods on java objects?
10:15	Chousuke	non-macro?
10:15	hyPiRion	,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(.read System/in))
10:15	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
10:15	hyPiRion	humf
10:15	hyPiRion	,(require '[clojure.walk :as walk])
10:15	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
10:16	hyPiRion	Whaa :(
10:16	Chousuke	the underlying special form is .
10:16	Chousuke	,'(.foo bar)
10:16	clojurebot	(.foo bar)
10:16	Chousuke	oh, right, that doesn't get expanded at read-time
10:19	ticking	use vs require which one was supposed to superseed which again?
10:25	alexnixon	ticking: require + refer > use
10:26	ticking	alexnixon, I cant seem to find the flag for importing all iwth require ^^
10:27	alexnixon	in ns form, (:require [foo.bar :refer :all])
10:27	alexnixon	but it's generally preferred to explicitly refer what you need or alias the ns
10:31	augustl	the problem is that I have a java object, a keyword for the method, and a vector for its arguments
10:31	augustl	so I need to apply the arguments etc
10:31	Chousuke	you'll probably need reflection for that.
10:32	augustl	which is what the "." forms does under the hood I guess?
10:33	Chousuke	augustl: if it doesn't have type hints, yes
10:33	jcidaho	hey - Am looking for approaches for comparing HTML snippets - trying enlive with midge, although I still get issues with whitespace, carriage returns etc in the enlive data tree. Anyone tackled something similar?
10:34	augustl	Chousuke: ah, good point.. I guess it's better that my API takes a function that can be called, that itself calls the interop, rather than passing data run-time, since there are compile time optimizations to be had..
10:35	pjstadig	ticking: https://gist.github.com/pjstadig/5187587
10:38	zerokarmaleft	pjstadig: was naming your localhost "jane" inspired by OSC?
10:38	pjstadig	yeah
10:40	zerokarmaleft	thought so...hope that works out for your investment portfolio :D
10:40	pjstadig	hehe
10:40	pjstadig	https://github.com/pjstadig/clojure/commit/03093720d44068dddaf8fdda0ffd9504acc9faa8
10:42	tyler__	shouldn't it be :clojure/west not clojure/west? just sayin
10:42	tyler__	actually nevermind
10:42	tyler__	brain not up yet
10:43	llasram	tyler__: On this channel it's just ::west
10:43	tyler__	lol
10:43	tyler__	(inc llasram)
10:43	lazybot	⇒ 6
10:44	tyler__	ironically inc side effects
10:44	tyler__	affects?
10:44	tyler__	to affected something is to make it effected right?
10:44	tyler__	affect
10:45	ticking	pjstadig, pretty cool ^^
10:45	tyler__	is
10:45	pjstadig	tyler__: you are commended, sir http://paddynotpatty.com/
10:46	tyler__	(inc pjstadig)
10:46	lazybot	⇒ 4
10:49	tyler__	lol i love the st patty twitter bot
10:49	tyler__	(inc public/shaming)
10:49	lazybot	⇒ 1
10:51	pjstadig	(inc public/shaming)
10:51	lazybot	⇒ 2
12:28	duncanm	is there a separate channel for clojurescript?
12:29	duncanm	hmm, this channel looks more lively than the other one
12:30	nDuff	duncanm: It's an unusually slow morning, but things are indeed generally lively here.
12:30	duncanm	yeah
12:30	duncanm	i used to be more active here
12:30	duncanm	nDuff: do you use clojurescript?
12:31	nDuff	duncanm: I don't generally answer questions of that form -- often, "do you use X?" is "are you willing to answer an arbitrary question about X I haven't yet chosen to ask" in disguise.
12:32	duncanm	nDuff: well, if you don't use clojurescript at all, then all subsequent questions are moot
12:32	nDuff	duncanm: Only if you were talking only to me. There's just short of 600 people here.
12:32	duncanm	nDuff: i was wondering about the implementation of vars/bindings in clojuresript
12:32	nDuff	duncanm: ...so ask _the channel_ that question.
12:32	zodiak	also a slow morning due to c/west I would think
12:33	ambrosebs	duncanm: Last I checked, vars don't exist in CLJS.
12:33	zodiak	vars don't exist in cljs ?!
12:34	supersym	lol@nduff
12:34	duncanm	ambrosebs: i thought i read something in google groups from dnolen
12:34	ambrosebs	duncanm: the compiler has an internal hash map of some sort to keep track of them.
12:34	duncanm	but i can't find the post now
12:34	supersym	that is so true about the questions... now I realise I do that sometimes as well :D
12:34	zodiak	so, you can't do (def foo) ?
12:34	ambrosebs	zodiak: you can, but there's no #' special form.
12:35	ambrosebs	zodiak: there are no Vars with a capital :)
12:35	zodiak	oh. well, that's not quite such a loss then :)
12:35	ambrosebs	zodiak: I want them.
12:36	duncanm	ambrosebs: http://markmail.org/message/fouk2zgk3v32zqxn#query:+page:1+mid:fouk2zgk3v32zqxn+state:results
12:36	duncanm	ambrosebs: maybe i'm misunderstanding dnolen
12:37	ambrosebs	duncanm: not sure, I'll check the compiler ;)
12:37	duncanm	ambrosebs: i was writing some typescript in node.js, and i really wanted something like fluid-variables in scheme
12:38	duncanm	ambrosebs: just for handling process.cwd()
12:38	duncanm	i realized the javascript people don't even have the terminology of 'fluid variables' or 'dynamic bindings' in the lisp-sense, so i thought the clojurescript people are the only ones who can answer my question
12:39	duncanm	ambrosebs: you're the one working on typed clojure?
12:39	ambrosebs	duncanm: haha yes
12:39	ambrosebs	don't worry, ask me whatever you like ;)
12:39	nDuff	duncanm: binding doesn't do a tremendous lot that you don't get with let in cljs -- it's just a try/finally block with set! calls
12:39	duncanm	ambrosebs: that's really cool, i went to school at Northeastern, and i'm friends with SamTH
12:40	nDuff	duncanm: ...and a warning if things weren't declared ^:dynamic
12:40	duncanm	ambrosebs: i was an undergrad when he worked on typed scheme
12:40	nDuff	duncanm: Since JavaScript isn't multithreaded, that's really all one needs.
12:40	ambrosebs	duncanm: wow that's great!
12:40	nDuff	s/binding/dynamic binding/
12:41	duncanm	nDuff: i'm using async.js (maybe this is not needed with clojurescript), but with multiple async calls, i was trying to find a way to handle cwd, or basically the current output port, things like that
12:41	ambrosebs	duncanm: Sam's been an invaluable source of help for over a year for me.
12:41	ambrosebs	I'm still pestering him with ideas :)
12:42	duncanm	nDuff: what about calls scheduled later?
12:44	nDuff	duncanm: Sounds like the same problem you'd have in Clojure (with the only difference that bound-fn* isn't implemented in cljs)
12:45	tieTYT	can someone recommend a tutorial for me? i got it recommended yesterday but i'm at work now and can't find the link on google. It's more up to date than this one: http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html
12:45	tieTYT	that one suggests using clj and people told me that's out of date
12:45	tieTYT	i think the tutorial may actually be from the clojure site. It seems like it's made from an atlassian wiki or something
12:46	tieTYT	has pages like "Getting Started" and it talks about all the different data structures. This ringing a bell?
12:46	tyler__	is there a channel for west?
12:46	duncanm	tieTYT: what are you trying to do with clojure?
12:47	supersym	whats the problem with clj?
12:47	tieTYT	learn it
12:47	tieTYT	supersym: i was told that's an obsolete way to run clj files. now people use lein instead
12:47	supersym	yes you can
12:48	supersym	but the repl is still handy.. I love lighttable a lot more for learning
12:48	supersym	instarepl
12:48	nDuff	tieTYT: If you're looking for a resource that covers modern tools (such as leiningen), http://www.clojurebook.com/ is pretty good -- but I don't know of anything free/online comparable.
12:48	supersym	but I also have eclipse with leiningen plugin depends on what I want to do, focus on
12:48	ambrosebs	tieTYT: try http://clojure-doc.org/articles/tutorials/getting_started.html
12:49	tieTYT	ambrosebs: that's the one I was looking for! I can't find that one from google
12:50	tieTYT	supersym: i don't know what any of those are
12:51	supersym	http://www.lighttable.com - but there is little documentation, pre-alpha software
12:51	supersym	author blog =
12:51	tieTYT	supersym: I don't even know the fundumentals yet
12:52	supersym	http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/04/12/light-table---a-new-ide-concept
12:52	ambrosebs	tieTYT: yes, that's an issue. It's the best site for beginners docs.
12:52	tieTYT	ambrosebs: you think it's better than http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html ?
12:52	supersym	haha ok sorry,...
12:53	supersym	but its made from user-friendly perspective so not much to learn there but clojure
12:53	ambrosebs	tieTYT: not sure. Just don't use anything on clojure.org.
12:53	tieTYT	supersym: I gotta learn that first :P
12:53	tieTYT	ambrosebs: ok
12:54	tieTYT	ambrosebs: why's that?
12:54	ambrosebs	tieTYT: it's rarely suitable for beginners.
12:54	ambrosebs	there are much better resources out there
12:54	ambrosebs	clojure.org is great as a reference.
12:55	supersym	tieTYT: imma newb too in clojure, lt = "Light Table let's you see what functions are used inside of the one you're currently working on, not just by highlighting ones in your code, but by also showing you their code to the side"
12:55	supersym	so I find it useful to learn, the language actually
12:55	supersym	but if you find it too daunting already ;) don't mind
13:05	ciphergoth	is slingshot the recommended way to do exception handling in Clojure?
13:06	nDuff	ciphergoth: it's very widely used
13:06	ciphergoth	nDuff, sounds good :)
13:13	ciphergoth	hmm, need to build this combination of map and reduce: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/latest/doc/html/Data-List.html#v:mapAccumL
13:22	jcromartie	I'd really like to just have clojure.tools.namespace.repl/refresh available all the time
14:11	amalloy	ciphergoth: most people make do with just ordinary java exceptions. if you want to do something fancier, then yes, slingshot is the way to go
14:12	ciphergoth	amalloy, thanks! It looks like creating my own exception hierarchy in Clojure could be a bit painful and not very Clojure-ish; slingshot could be nicer for that. But maybe not?
14:13	Ember-	hmm, ex-info and ex-data won't work?
14:13	Ember-	in my opinion those kinda deprecated most of slingshot
14:14	cap10morgan	is there a good way to debug "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.Exception: No namespace foo" errors? I want to figure out what in the source file that defines things in that namespace is breaking it.
14:15	amalloy	Ember-: those provided better primitives; slingshot still adds a lot of functionality on top of them
14:15	tyler__	where are people going for lunch?
14:15	Ember-	or well, of course slingshot provides all kind of nice things yeah
14:16	Ember-	tyler__: you do realize that there's people all around the world in here? :)
14:17	amalloy	ciphergoth: sure, that would be easier in slingshot. however, consider the fact that it's not easy already as a warning that it's not really the Clojure Way
14:17	Ember-	from all around
14:17	Ember-	own exception hierarchy in clojure sounds kinda dangerous
14:17	Ember-	or well, not dangerous
14:17	Ember-	just tedious :)
14:18	nDuff	cap10morgan: Can you provide a reproducer for that? Barring that, a full (chaining included) stack trace?
14:20	cap10morgan	nDuff: sure, but it's a garden-variety kind of error. I have a file that implements the mail_batcher.t-core ns for midje tests, but when I try to run `lein midje` I get the no namespace error b/c something is wrong in the file, syntax-wise I guess.
14:21	amalloy	cap10morgan: mail_batcher.t-core is not a namespace name that you can use
14:21	nDuff	cap10morgan: sounds like something typically related to not following the convention for mapping names between file and namespace names.
14:21	nDuff	cap10morgan: mail-
14:22	nDuff	err, mail-batcher.t-core as your ns, and mail_batcher/t_core.clj as your source, would make sense.
14:22	cap10morgan	amalloy: huh, we have been using it. but I'll try making that change.
14:22	amalloy	it'd probably work if you never tried to require that file from another file
14:23	cap10morgan	amalloy: that file was use'ing mail_batcher.core. fascinating.
14:24	cap10morgan	changing that does seem to have improved the stacktraces, though
14:26	cap10morgan	yep, all good now. thanks all.
15:06	whilo	hi
15:08	whilo	i am trying to build my clojurescript application with the openlayers-3 version, which uses the google closure compiler. https://github.com/openlayers/ol3
15:13	whilo	i have added :libs ["libs/ol.js"] to lein-cljsbuild compiler configurations as documented on http://lukevanderhart.com/2011/09/30/using-javascript-and-clojurescript.html
15:13	thm_prover_	sorry if this is repeat (other client appears to have frozen)
15:14	thm_prover_	what is an actively maintained peg parser library for clojure? I'm currently looking at clj-peg, fnparser, ... but not sure what to go with
15:14	whilo	thm_prover_: something like this: https://github.com/richard-lyman/amotoen/ ?
15:15	nDuff	thm_prover: I haven't found one that I was happy with. That said, my requirements included support for left recursion, so that's maybe a special case.
15:15	thm_prover_	whilo: I like this line from the documentation: "In other words: Amotoen is better than clj-peg. Amotoen is not AOT'd."
15:16	whilo	thm_prover_: i am atm. struggeling with it :-) but i am very new to parsing. my first real parser with ast
15:17	raek	I thought people quit AOT compilinging their libs in 2010
15:17	thm_prover_	whilo: great, pearhps we can help each other out
15:17	thm_prover_	whilo: out of courisity, what are you parsing?
15:17	whilo	https://github.com/RagingRanek/jekyll/blob/master/doc/syntax
15:19	whilo	the more i work on it, the more i like the simplicity of lisp "syntax" :-D
15:20	whilo	about my clojurescript problem. i could require the namespace for a debug build with whitespace only and can construct some objects, but munging of ol.js breaks my code
15:22	whilo	has somebody clues of how to build an actual external closure compatible library with lein-cljsbuild and closure? on the other hand if i try to use ol-whitespace.js with my whitespace build, both include google closure libs and conflict
15:23	tyler__	followed instructions in https://github.com/dgrnbrg/spyscope but i can't access in my lein repl. is it a lein issue or a library issue?
15:25	thm_prover_	does cgrand hang out here? I just stumbled across parsley (and it's claim for incremental parsing) and woudl love to chat about how it works
15:30	Frozenlock	Any libraries to create invoices? (clj-pdf?)
15:31	thm_prover_	I use itext for producing pdfs
15:33	Frozenlock	this? --> https://github.com/yogthos/iText
15:35	TimMc	Wow, this midje test actually passes: (fact (/ 1 0) =not=> 17)
15:35	TimMc	Does that seem insane to anyone else?
15:35	hyPiRion	well, it is a fact that 1/0 is not 17.
15:36	Frozenlock	what is '=not=>'?
15:36	TimMc	Yes, in a strict sense, it is true, and I see why it does it that way...
15:36	TimMc	Frozenlock: It's a midje-specific symbol.
15:36	TimMc	(fact (+ 1 1) => 2)
15:36	Frozenlock	ah, ok.
15:37	TimMc	I had a test that was incorrectly passing because it was throwing an error.
15:37	hyPiRion	TimMc: I get why you're kind of surprised, considering most test frameworks throws errors when they crash
15:38	TimMc	So it doesn't seem weird to you?
15:38	hyPiRion	TimMc: I don't know.
15:38	hyPiRion	I would probably do => testing instead of eliminations.
15:39	melipone	hello! How can I remove the nth element from a list?
15:41	nDuff	melipone: That's not a particularly efficient thing to do, particularly if it's happening in a loop. What's your use case? Ideally, there might be a better approach.
15:41	hyPiRion	melipone: hello! As nDuff commented, it's not particularly efficient. However, clever use of split-with should give you what you'd like.
15:42	hyPiRion	,(split-at 3 (range 10))
15:42	clojurebot	[(0 1 2) (3 4 5 6 7 ...)]
15:42	hyPiRion	,(let [[fst [_ & rst]] (split-at 3 (range 10))] (concat fst rst))
15:42	clojurebot	(0 1 2 4 5 ...)
15:42	QSteven	does the guy behind webfui hang out here on occasion?
15:44	jtoy_	can someone redirect me to a better explanation of how to use ->> ? this page is not clear enough for me: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/-%3E%3E
15:44	jtoy_	also is there a googleable name for that?
15:46	xeqi	jtoy_: I call it thread-last
15:46	xeqi	(->> 1 (- 2) (- 7))
15:46	xeqi	&(->> 1 (- 2) (- 7))
15:46	lazybot	⇒ 6
15:46	melipone	I was thinking of (take nth (drop n+1 ...) type of thing
15:47	whilo	thm_prover_: the unfinished parse-tree of parseley seems to be a lot more informative than the Exception from amatoen
15:47	whilo	parsley
15:47	thm_prover_	whilo: ah, you've tried both
15:47	whilo	nope, i have just learned about parsley as u posted it :-D
15:51	jtoy_	i see
15:53	jtoy_	hmm, why are these different though? (->> 1 (- 2) (- 7)) and (-> 1 (- 2) (- 7)) ? shoudlnt 2nd and last be the same here?
15:53	xeqi	jtoy_: -> threads as the first argument
15:54	xeqi	(-> 1 (- 2) (- 7)) = (- (- 1 2) 7)
15:54	jtoy_	ah ok, i see
16:00	jcromartie	clojure.xml and it's friends are totally useless when it comes to unknown outside XML and namespaces
16:00	jcromartie	its
16:04	muhoo	i remember someone, maybe it was cemerick, was working on coming up with a pattern to deal with function application that had to happen in a particular order, like middleware wrapping
16:04	xeqi	muhoo: I think that became part of nrepl's middleware
16:05	xeqi	* middleware declaration
16:05	muhoo	xeqi: cool, do you remember which project it ended up being incorporated into (so's i can have a peek at the source)? was it nrepl, piggieback, or something else?
16:05	cemerick	muhoo: yeah, don't look at it though; I can't use any useful dependencies in nREPL that would make such things way way easier
16:06	muhoo	which dependencies?
16:06	muhoo	because i'm bumping into this problem in a different domain, not nrepl, and i may be able to make use of other solutions, if they're out there.
16:07	Glenjamin	hi guys, i'm getting a weird issue with clj-http+compojure, if i pass the http response as a compojure route return value, I can see the XML response - but if i use :body on it, i get an empty string. Any ideas how to debug?
16:08	muhoo	hell i'm not even sure what to google for :-/
16:09	cap10morgan	is there a shorter way to write this: (reduce conj (map (fn [[key val]] {val key}) {:foo "bar" :baz "qux"})) ;; mapping from one map to a new, modified map being the aspect I'm interested in ??
16:09	lazybot	cap10morgan: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
16:10	cemerick	muhoo: something like dependency-list works for a lot of simple cases: https://github.com/clojure/clojure-contrib/blob/master/modules/graph/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/graph.clj#L190
16:12	borkdude	cap10morgan
16:12	borkdude	,(let [m {:foo "bar" :baz "qux"}] (zipmap (vals m) (keys m)))
16:12	clojurebot	{"qux" :baz, "bar" :foo}
16:12	xeqi	&(clojure.set/map-invert {:foo "bar" :baz "qux"})
16:12	lazybot	⇒ {"qux" :baz, "bar" :foo}
16:13	muhoo	cemerick: ok, thanks. makes sense, and now i can google for "topological sort" :-)
16:13	borkdude	xeqi why is that in clojure.set?
16:14	xeqi	borkdude: I'm going to guess legacy reasons?
16:14	muhoo	OIC, it's bascally a dependency problem, like aether/maven solves. middleware A depends on middlware B etc., and the algorithm needs to sort them first before applying them
16:15	borkdude	xeqi funny...
16:17	borkdude	$find-fn {:a 1 :b 2} {1 :a 2 :b}
16:17	borkdude	$findfn 1 2
16:18	lazybot	[clojure.core/unchecked-inc-int clojure.core/unchecked-inc clojure.core/inc]
16:18	borkdude	$findfn {:a 1 :b 2} {1 :a 2 :b}
16:18	cgag	rename-keys feels weird being in clojure.set to me as well
16:18	lazybot	[clojure.set/map-invert]
16:18	borkdude	yeah =)
16:18	borkdude	good night folks
16:23	tyler__	man Stuart Sierra is such a good speaker
16:24	muhoo	tyler__: he was a theatre major, he said in one talk
16:24	muhoo	are you guys liveIRC'ing cljwest?
16:28	owengalenjones	this is kindof a crappy question but Im completely flumuxed, I have wildly different behavior from lein -run vs. java -jar uberjar: http://d.pr/i/t69G not even sure what to look for... Ive ran lein clean, lein compile (no output from this) then lein uberjar to create the jar file
16:29	llasram	owengalenjones: well, `lein run` will include the `dev` profile
16:29	llasram	owengalenjones: What does your project.clj look like?
16:30	owengalenjones	my dev profile has lein-midje midje abd bultitude in it
16:31	owengalenjones	project.clj: http://d.pr/i/MX23
16:31	llasram	Ok... So honestly I'm not entirely clear on how they're acting different. In your screenshot, the lines from the uberjar run look identical to the `lein run` output up until you type `wtf`
16:32	llasram	Uh, also maybe: https://www.refheap.com/paste
16:32	owengalenjones	the request response json only occurs in the lein run
16:32	abp	woohoo: http://pedestal.io/
16:32	llasram	abp: sparkly!
16:33	llasram	owengalenjones: Are you sure you aren't just seeing output buffer flushes occurring differently?
16:34	owengalenjones	no because the lein run will connect and insert things into a mongo database, the uberjar isnt
16:35	nbeloglazov	Hi. I'm trying to setup paredit. I have problems with curly braces. When I put close brace it finds closest non-curly brace ) or ] and jumps there.
16:35	nbeloglazov	So [:hello {:a 1\|}] => [:hello {:a 1}]\| .Does anybody know how to fix it?
16:35	nDuff	nbeloglazov: Which version? I haven't seen that in rather a long time.
16:36	nbeloglazov	22 or 23 beta
16:36	nbeloglazov	Ok. I'll take a look at the vesion in emacs-live
16:38	llasram	owengalenjones: My psychic powers are failing today. Only thing I can think of is to add more debug logging to figure out where the divergence occurs
16:40	owengalenjones	llasram: well I was thinking, the wtf is a debugging statement (pretty confused at this point) that should be displaying, do uberjars do anything with stdout? does it only display stdout in the -main fn?
16:41	llasram	owengalenjones: Ah, I misinterpreted what happened there. At the very least, make sure you print a newline after your debugging logging (`println` vs `print`, if that's what you're using)
16:41	llasram	owengalenjones: Otherwise your output will be buffered until a newline
16:51	owengalenjones	llasram: ok thats really weird, the the program requests data from an api and then later sends it to mongodb, but in an uberjar the send-to-mongo fn wasn't doing anything until I put a println fn in it
16:55	drorbemet	Hi, I am currently running Win7 with Eclipse, Counterclockwise with one repl and midje.repl autotest in a PowerShell terminal.
16:55	drorbemet	I am a bit supprised about the memory consumption. Most of the time there are two java.exe and two javaw.exe processes running. Each of them taking from 400 up to 800 Megabyte of RAM. Are there some options to configure that?
16:56	drorbemet	Could one java process be shared by multiple repl instances?
16:56	drorbemet	Would the situation be different with Emacs?
16:57	technomancy	drorbemet: you can use Leiningen's "trampoline" higher-order task to allow one of the JVMs to exit and only leave the project JVM
16:57	owengalenjones	llasram: the fix: https://www.refheap.com/paste/12698 any way thank you for putting me the on the right track...
16:58	technomancy	I don't know if you can do that with ccw though
16:58	technomancy	I recommend keeping a single (possibly trampolined) repl open but I don't know if the tooling around midje/ccw supports that very well
16:58	tyler__	anyone have an idea of why my dependency code isn't being use in my lein profile? https://www.refheap.com/paste/12699
16:58	llasram	owengalenjones: I... um. Well. I'm glad it's working for you
16:59	tyler__	used*
16:59	drorbemet	Ah, trampoline does that, ok I look into that, thanks.
16:59	drorbemet	Besides trampoline, are there possibilities to optimize the JVM process itself regarding memory consumption?
17:00	technomancy	drorbemet: you can set :jvm-opts to include memory tuning in project.clj
17:00	balint	I'm having problems with type-hints
17:00	technomancy	drorbemet: having a ton of JVMs open is always going to be expensive though
17:00	balint	I have to this code: (let [explored? (fn [^long i] (aget ^booleans explored (dec i)))]
17:01	balint	I get ClassCastException [Ljava.lang.Boolean; cannot be cast to [Z when I run it though
17:01	balint	explored is defined as a boolean java array
17:01	hiredman	you have an array of boxed Boolean objects, not primitive booleans
17:01	balint	explored (make-array java.lang.Boolean V)
17:02	balint	hiredman
17:02	balint	sorry
17:02	muhoo	so i have a stupid question about clojure and reentrancy and interop. if a clojure function is called from a java-driven callback interop thread, and i'm only managing clojure persistent data within it, it's reentrant and thread-safe, right?
17:03	muhoo	i'm dealing with a java library that is an absolute zoo of locks and synchronized and crap, so i'm a bit spun around.
17:03	drorbemet	technomancy: ok thanks, I am not complaining, but somehow I have to manage my 8Gigs RAM currently available ;-)
17:04	technomancy	8 gigs! luxury.
17:05	balint	hiredman: thank you, that indeed helped
17:05	balint	I converted the array definitions from (make-array ^java.lang.Boolean V) to (boolean-array V)
17:05	llasram	Last year I was too busy to upgrade Emacs. Now I'm too busy to install the 32GB of RAM just sitting on my desk...
17:05	llasram	One day, one day
17:05	balint	so next question
17:05	balint	why does the following code:
17:05	balint	set-finished (fn [^long offset ^longs values]
17:05	balint	(doseq [idx (range (count values))]
17:05	balint	(aset ^longs finished (+ offset idx) (nth values idx))))
17:06	balint	give me "call to aset can't be resolved." ?
17:06	hiredman	win 15
17:08	muhoo	balint: type "aset" in your repl and see if #<core$aset clojure.core$aset@191d528d> or similar comes back?
17:08	balint	#<core$aset clojure.core$aset@7f7ef0a7>
17:09	muhoo	well, at least your repl can resolve it.
17:09	mpenet	balint: probably because finished is not an array
17:09	brehaut	balint: just btw, type hints are hints, not checks or coercions.
17:10	brehaut	balint: hints are only used to provide compile time optimisation / remove reflection / specific java method overloads to use
17:10	balint	the original problem is that I have a huge graph and need to run an algorithm on it fast
17:11	balint	so I'm doing all this because I did not prevail with the functional (meaning: using persistent data structures) method
17:11	balint	by huge I mean ~800.000 vertices
17:11	brehaut	did warn-on-reflection tell you it was reflecting on those calls?
17:12	balint	and running the current version I saw in the profiler that ~60% of CPU time is spent in reflection.getMethods() (or sg similar)
17:12	balint	brehaut: exactly
17:12	nDuff	balint: if I define finished with (into-array Long [...]), that code compiles perfectly.
17:13	balint	mpenet: this is how I defined finished: (let [finished (long-array V) …])
17:13	nDuff	...same with (into-array Long/TYPE ...)
17:14	balint	nDuff: I want to allocate an array of a certain size that I know in advance
17:16	nDuff	balint: shrug. Works for me.
17:16	balint	nDuff: the definition of the array works for me, too
17:16	mpenet	balint: it's another of the args of aset then that could cause problems
17:17	balint	it's the "set-finished" code snippet (see above) that throws the reflection warning
17:17	balint	this does not issue warnings:
17:18	balint	set-finished (fn [^long offset ^longs values]
17:18	balint	(doseq [idx (range (count values))]
17:18	balint	(aset ^longs finished (+ offset idx) 0)))
17:18	balint	I replaced (nth values idx) with 0 in the last line
17:19	amalloy	balint: why are you writing this function at all? just use System/arraycopy
17:20	amalloy	it takes all the args you need to do offset/slice copying
17:20	balint	amalloy: thank you
17:20	balint	my java foo is very basic
17:20	amalloy	$javadoc System arraycopy
17:20	lazybot	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/System.html#arraycopy(java.lang.Object,%20int,%20java.lang.Object,%20int,%20int)
17:20	nDuff	"java fu", btw
17:21	balint	nDuff: you're wright ;)
17:22	amalloy	or use java.util.Arrays/copyOfRange if you don't need to allocate the object yourself
17:33	owengalenjones	llasram: ha, actually this was the culprit: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12924870/leiningen-uberjar-different-results-from-lein-run
17:34	balint	amalloy: thank you, the first part of the algorithm just ran in 11 seconds
17:34	balint	before it would have taken ~20 hours :)
17:34	balint	there is some speedup to be had in using java arrays, it seems
17:40	Frozenlock	In the nrepl buffer, when I try to autocomplete a namespace that's required but not :as, I get a java.lang.ClassNotFoundException. IIRC, that wasn't the case in swank; is it normal in nrepl?
17:40	Frozenlock	For example: (clojure.string/<TAB> BOOOM!
17:40	xeqi	Frozenlock: what version of nrepl.el?
17:40	tgoossens	I suppose that some of you try to put as much immutability in java as well.
17:40	tgoossens	I was wondering
17:40	xeqi	I remember that happening on an older version for me
17:40	clojurebot	version ranges are nothing but trouble: http://nelsonmorris.net/2012/07/31/do-not-use-version-ranges-in-project-clj.html
17:40	Frozenlock	0.1.7-preview
17:41	tgoossens	if you are making immutable classes in java. Why not just make the (internal (final)) fields public?
17:41	tgoossens	i've always learned that making getters is a good practice
17:41	tgoossens	but is it really necessary here?
17:43	tgoossens	because seriously, currently i can think of no reason why a public field would be bad in case of an immutable java class
17:44	amalloy	tgoossens: indeed, when i define a java class that is really immutable, i don't write any getters
17:45	amalloy	getters are an OO idealism - in theory it would be nice if stored fields were indistinguishable from computed values (everything is just a message), but in practice no java code does that
17:46	xeqi	tgoossens: because then you can't lazily compute the field?
17:46	tgoossens	however "the good practice" i learned makes me feel bad sometimes. What if the string representation you chose of lets say an "Address" would be better with an Address class
17:46	tgoossens	then what?
17:46	tgoossens	my current idea is
17:46	tgoossens	you define a new immutable class
17:48	xeqi	Frozenlock: I'm on 0.1.7 for what its worth
17:48	borkdude	getters/setters is one of the things that's hard to sell when I introduce first year students with java..
17:49	Frozenlock	xeqi: Hmm.. I'll try to update then. Thanks
17:50	djpowell	java beans were basically an alternative to activex components, a convention for making ui components for an ide. at some point people got confused and decided it was the basis of good oo design
17:50	tgoossens	borkdude: i'm currently in discussion with someone about the topic :)
17:51	djpowell	http://www.javaworld.com/jw-09-1997/jw-09-beanbox.html
17:52	borkdude	tgoossens some frameworks make use of getters/setters, but that's more like "do it, because people expect you to"
17:53	borkdude	tgoossens C# has a somewhat more polished version of this called properties
17:53	tgoossens	properties if i recall ?
17:55	borkdude	what is pedestal.io about? how does it relate to the existing clojure common webstack?
17:56	tgoossens	borkdude: what did you say on twitter about programming :p ? (and what did i respond!)
17:56	borkdude	tgoossens I'm not programming
17:56	borkdude	=)
17:57	abp	borkdude: It's neatly integrating stuff and solving major pain points.
17:58	abp	Funny thing is, I were working on a vector based routing dsv too, as well as other structural helpers.
18:05	devn	hyPiRion: Ever get a chance to look at http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1181 ?
18:06	borkdude	abp I'm reading about the ring handler vs interceptors thing now
18:07	hyPiRion	devn: oh, sorry
18:07	hyPiRion	I can do a peek at it now
18:08	devn	hyPiRion: no rush, just doing some "effective badgering"
18:09	hyPiRion	heh
18:11	abp	borkdude: I'm reading up on routing, need to go back to interceptors after that.
18:11	borkdude	abp first thought: are reducers used in here somewhere? :P but probably not
18:49	SegFaultAX	Did irccloud just die?
18:50	SegFaultAX	technomancy: I use irssi + znc, personally.
18:52	brainproxy	having trouble pulling in deps for the pedestal samples.. anyone else experiencing the same?
19:05	jonasac	any vim users here, particularly foreplay.vim/fireplace.vim ?
19:05	SegFaultAX	jonasac: Yes.
19:06	jonasac	SegFaultAX: have you found a way to set up a quasi repl when you are not in a project, i.e the repl file is missing
19:09	ivan	heh http://bugs.sun.com/view_bug.do?bug_id=4909760
19:10	tomoj	hmm.. interceptors
19:12	hiredman	continuations
19:12	tomoj	but with, uh.. reflection?
19:25	tgoossens	borkdude: i hope i didn't gave that other guy (in the discussion) nightmares
19:30	yedi	oh snap clojurewest is today?
19:31	brehaut	yes
19:40	yedi	probably will be a while before the vids come out though
19:41	Frozenlock	:(
19:41	yedi	oh what, why have i not heard of lobos before
19:41	brehaut	clojurewest is a bit snappier than the conj with vids
19:41	yedi	why am i messing with stupid sql scripts
19:43	abp	brehaut: Yeah but infoq delays them across the coming years. ;)
19:43	tieTYT	if this is a troll, it's not intentional, but: Between scala and clojure, which one is more functional?
19:43	yedi	lol
19:43	brehaut	haha
19:43	brehaut	well scala is marketed as being an object function hybrid, and clojure is marketed as function
19:43	brehaut	you decide
19:44	brehaut	however
19:44	hiredman	I suggest going to ask in #scala
19:44	technomancy	hiredman: heh; that would be amusing
19:44	brehaut	the scala guys have some amazingly functional libraries.
19:44	tieTYT	ok I shall
19:46	brehaut	from #scala "sproingie:
19:46	brehaut	modern thinking in FP is heavily oriented toward types, which clojure doesn't do" :)
19:46	Glenjamin	can anyone tell me why this doesn't eval? (-> :a (fn [b] (do (prn b) b)))
19:46	hiredman	macroexpand it
19:46	technomancy	brehaut: I've always thought that was a weird conflation
19:47	yedi	technomancy: where do you think the idea stems from?
19:47	Glenjamin	hiredman: oh right, i see
19:47	technomancy	kind of like how people think dynamic types are for "scripting languages"
19:47	Glenjamin	is there a way to define functions inline for threading?
19:47	Glenjamin	aha
19:47	Glenjamin	i need more parens
19:47	technomancy	yedi: because most FP research has been done by haskellers?
19:48	yedi	that's what i figured, but i wasn't sure if it was because FP researchers specifically chose haskell because of its strong typing you know?
19:48	yedi	like which direction the correlation goes
19:48	pjstadig	Glenjamin: i've been bit before by the fact that I think of -> as working with values at runtime, when, in fact, it is a macro
19:48	technomancy	it's a cultural thing mostly I think
19:49	Glenjamin	i'm now having an issue with -> on a multimethod
19:50	Glenjamin	lemme see if i can isolate a testcase
19:52	Glenjamin	right
19:52	Glenjamin	https://gist.github.com/glenjamin/3a2fb21af6462a4ac6da
19:52	Glenjamin	can anyone explain to me why this isn't allowed?
19:52	brehaut	technomancy: i agree. a bit odd
19:52	brainproxy	tomoj: the description of the interceptor stuff makes me think of the state monad, but with a dsl for controlling transition between steps in the computation
19:57	tieTYT	does clojure have algebraic data types and pattern matching?
19:57	Glenjamin	there's no pattern matching
19:57	hyPiRion	only destructuring
19:57	technomancy	pattern matching is in a library
19:58	Glenjamin	i believe while you can sort-of do ADTs, the general idea is to just use built-in types?
19:58	technomancy	since there are macros it doesn't need to be in the core language
19:58	tieTYT	i see
19:58	tieTYT	i think i'm going to learn clojure instead of scala. It's more alien
19:58	amalloy	Glenjamin: that gist has no meaningful content in it. all the -> form there does is expand to (render (:body {body "some string body"})), which is equivalent to (render "some string body")
19:58	tieTYT	and I like the inventor and his lectures
19:58	technomancy	pattern matching and FP is another weird conflation
19:58	technomancy	there's no reason you can't have pattern matches in imperative languages
19:58	amalloy	whether that works or not has nothing much to do with ->
19:59	brehaut	technomancy: if one was a smartarse they would point to scala as example of that ;)
19:59	technomancy	brehaut: zing!
19:59	lovemuffin	i think its weird that lein isn't bundled with clojure binary
19:59	technomancy	what clojure binary?
20:00	brainproxy	lovemuffin: clojure is just a library
20:00	lovemuffin	i mean the release
20:00	amalloy	lovemuffin: the clojure binary is bundled with lein, so to speak
20:00	technomancy	it is kind of silly that clojure links to .zip file downloads =\
20:00	brainproxy	lovemuffin: think of lein as a handy way to work with jars coming from maven, clojars, etc.
20:00	brehaut	technomancy: its the future
20:00	Glenjamin	amalloy: i've copied the definition of the required file in
20:00	brainproxy	including clojure itself
20:00	Glenjamin	i appear to be falling foul of some sort of compile-time type checking :s
20:01	brehaut	(note: future only with a mayan style calander)
20:01	lovemuffin	well as a new comer, it makes starting out more confusing, so i download clojure, no i need lein too apparently, what is lein? etc.
20:01	technomancy	lovemuffin: clojure.org is really a bad place for newcomers
20:01	technomancy	unfortunately
20:01	tomoj	brainproxy: the state monadiness I see is maybe the manual dynamic binding conveyance?
20:01	brainproxy	lovemuffin: you can get up and running with lein super fast
20:02	brainproxy	lovemuffin: basically download the lein script, chmod +x, run it and it will bootstrap itself
20:02	technomancy	much better to start from clojure-doc.org
20:02	brainproxy	lovemuffin: at that point you can start playing w/ clojure immediately simply by running `lein repl`
20:02	lovemuffin	i got that far now, i'm just more commenting as a new comer, in other languages, most of what you need comes with the release package to start trying it out
20:02	Glenjamin	finding the "you're new, do this" guide was far harder than it should have been
20:03	brainproxy	sure, that's fair criticism
20:03	Glenjamin	google throws up lots of outdated tutorials
20:03	lovemuffin	Glenjamin: yea, i mean i found it, but it took a few clicks
20:03	technomancy	lovemuffin: unfortunately no one in here has the ability to fix clojure.org
20:03	technomancy	I think we all agree though
20:03	brainproxy	lets take it over w/ a stampede of lambdas
20:03	Glenjamin	needs more blogs and link backs to clojure-doc.org i guess
20:04	hiredman	b/win 15
20:04	brainproxy	tomoj: i saw it in the description of how interceptions are chained
20:04	brainproxy	*interceptors
20:07	yedi	whose behind clojure-doc.org
20:07	tomoj	what's the state?
20:07	yedi	who's*
20:08	Glenjamin	aaah, "No single method" means "no method with arity 1"
20:08	NeedMoreDesu	(Thread. (fn[] (/ 0 0))) -- can I print stacktrace, given a thread?
20:09	pjstadig	(Thread. (fn [] (try (/ 0 0) (catch Exception e (print-it)))))
20:09	yedi	has anyone checked out pedestal's clojurescript methodology/philosophy? and if so what do you think?
20:09	tomoj	I mean, if the state is the context, then we have `do _ <- interceptorA; _ <- interceptorB; ...`, i.e. `interceptorA >> interceptorB >> ...`?
20:10	NeedMoreDesu	pjstadig: Can I do it from other thread, given thread object?
20:10	hiredman	more like some combination of state and continuation
20:10	tomoj	still, what's the state? :)
20:10	pjstadig	(.setUncaughtExceptionHandler t some-handler)
20:11	pjstadig	there's also (Thread/setDefaultUncaughtExceptionHandler some-handler)
20:11	hiredman	tomoj: it sounds like the thing the docs call the `context`
20:11	pjstadig	NeedMoreDesu: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/Thread.html#setUncaughtExceptionHandler(java.lang.Thread.UncaughtExceptionHandler)
20:11	hiredman	which is some combination of other stuff and ring's request and response stuff it seems like
20:11	tomoj	but isn't that just the argument and return types of the continuations?
20:18	tomoj	I was thinking maybe they looked like iteratees, and oleg says iteratees are state and cont monads
20:18	blr	Il0vemushr00ms
20:19	blr	sigh, wrong channel, sorry.
20:20	tomoj	so hmm, the context has both the state and cont bits, depending on where you look inside it?
20:21	tomoj	e.g. terminate is #(dissoc % :io.pedestal.service.impl.interceptor/queue)
20:22	ravster	hey, does anyone out here have experience with geohash-36?
20:23	amalloy	blr: time to change all your passwords
20:24	amalloy	~anyone
20:24	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
20:25	blr	amalloy: clearly I should have stayed in bed today.
20:26	mrowe	blr: "wrong channel"? which one did you mean to put it in?? :-P
20:27	blr	#sshpassworddisclosure
20:30	lovemuffin	so im new to clojure, i want to build a supervisor/worker type app, how can i use threads for this? is it a good idea? with processes if a worker spawned crashes thats ok, it wont crash the entire app, main process
20:30	ravster	amalloy_: just curious. no help required atm.
20:30	NeedMoreDesu	pjstadig: http://www.everfall.com/paste/id.php?g8m0uog0kp1d what am I doing wrong?
20:30	tyler__	uh oh: Could not find artifact io.pedestal:pedestal.app:jar:0.1.0-SNAPSHOT in clojars (https://clojars.org/repo/)
20:32	NeedMoreDesu	lovemuffin: I'm writing supervisor/process/server stuff now.
20:33	lovemuffin	but i want to use threads instead of processes if possible, i just dont know if clojure provides a way to not crash the main process if a thread has some uncaught exception or whatever
20:34	NeedMoreDesu	lovemuffin: Oh. Plenty of ways. Like me sitting and trying to GET an exception. (.start (Thread. (fn [] (/ 0 0))))
20:35	brainproxy	tomoj: right, so maybe more like the state transformer on the cont monad
20:36	NeedMoreDesu	lovemuffin: yet I had some problems with futures.
20:37	NeedMoreDesu	So now I stick to promises.
20:38	lovemuffin	are try catch finally close to being free, or that is no real performance cost for using it too much in clojure/jvm ?
20:41	jimkcar	anyone want to help me with parsing some basic XML?
20:43	devn	anyone looking at pedestal?
20:44	redinger	tyler__: In project.clj, change the dependency to be on io.pedestal/pedestal.app 0.1.0 (not the snapshot)
20:44	Frozenlock	devn: I've seen the announcement, but nothing on the homepage convinved me it was superior to the existing alternatives.
20:44	tyler__	redinger: thn
20:45	tyler__	thnx*
20:46	devn	Frozenlock: I think they're doing a poor job of marketing it. I listened to the podcast and some of the ideas were interesting. Ultimately it seems like something that I might use for a client app, but something that maybe doesn't translate to simpler use cases. For instance, being able to do some decision-making in the middle of ring's middleware to say I want to take a different path to get to my end state, etc.
20:48	devn	Frozenlock: I'm probably going too far by saying that. I guess at the end of a long day at work I just want my "blog in 15 minutes" to absolve me of any guilt for not having read all the source.
20:49	Frozenlock	I think your marketing critique is fair. If I need to read the source to understand why I should use it, I think something's wrong.
20:49	Frozenlock	I'm too lazy for that.
20:49	devn	Frozenlock: There are a lot of reasons why it's cool, in fact. I made a bunch of notes, but I still just want to see a quick walkthrough of building an app.
20:49	devn	not a finished example
20:49	brainproxy	currently, I think I'm basically doing something similar by combining liberator with a "monad sandwich" (using jim duey's protocol monads)
20:49	Frozenlock	Also the mention of datomic in the docs scared me. (not FOSS)
20:50	brainproxy	but my approach is very app-specific; if pedestal has made the approach general purpose, I may get on board
20:50	Frozenlock	devn: In screencast please! :D
20:51	devn	Frozenlock: Yeah it was interesting that during the podcast interview with Tim Ewald there was a question about "Why build this?" and Tim said: Well, because most anything these days that wants to see adoption releases its source.
20:53	devn	Not verbatim of course. I'm using my own interpretation.
20:53	blr	devn: is this intending to provide some kind of general purpose framework like rails? I thought that was antithetical to clojure philosophy
20:54	xeqi	blr: from outside of c/w and only seeing the docs on the website it describes itself as a framework
20:54	devn	blr: That's just hooey that old fuddy-duddies in the clojure community say a lot. Don't listen to that noise. The Clojure community is bigger than that now, I think.
20:55	devn	That's not to say it's a good or bad idea or anything. I agree with a lot of the "why" behind that sentiment. But it's a generalization.
20:56	joegallo	Bull5h!t
20:56	joegallo	dammit
20:56	devn	lol
20:56	joegallo	more passwords #clojure tonight
20:57	joegallo	lol
20:57	brehaut	joegallo: and yet, perfectly timed ;)
20:57	devn	brehaut: boo!
20:57	joegallo	oh well, i'm not changing it, it's a great password
20:57	brehaut	apparently im and old fuddy-duddie
20:57	brehaut	who believes in the hooey
20:57	devn	brehaut: there's enough dogmatism about libraries>frameworks that it's discouraging people from doing things they are interested in doing.
20:57	devn	I don't like that.
20:58	blr	joegallo: you did that just to make me feel better didn't you.
20:58	joegallo	nah, total coincidence, but it is hilarious
20:58	tyler__	heh loaded up chat example for pedestal and it was like "not found"
20:58	brehaut	if people want to use rails, rails still exists.
20:58	clojurebot	max people is 317
20:59	devn	brehaut: it's not about rails vs *
21:00	NeedMoreDesu	pjstadig: http://blog.jayfields.com/2011/01/clojure-using-java-inner-classes.html don't work for me.
21:01	devn	brehaut: if people want to build a big honking framework in clojure I don't see why anyone should discourage them from doing it.
21:02	brehaut	devn: if people want a sprawl mass of mutable state in clojure, i dont see why anyone should discourage them from doing it
21:02	brehaut	oh wait
21:02	devn	brehaut: at least it has namespaces. there are tradeoffs.
21:02	devn	brehaut: the overgeneralization is all im reacting to
21:03	devn	i hear this over and over again: "but people in clojure don't like frameworks, right?"
21:03	devn	it makes this community out to be a bunch of picky eaters who can't enjoy anything for what it is
21:04	noprompt	brehaut: i don't want to use rails
21:04	hiredman	devn: that is ridiculous
21:04	devn	hiredman: i agree
21:04	noprompt	brehaut: i maintain a few rails apps. it was cool at first but, yeah, i'll pass on it now.
21:04	hiredman	devn: what you are saying is ridiculous
21:04	brehaut	noprompt: i certainly dont want to force you to use rails
21:05	devn	hiredman: oh i know, just throwing some snark on the fire
21:05	noprompt	brehaut: hehe
21:05	brehaut	devn, im pretty sure all the non-picky eaters are over using PHP
21:06	devn	bash bash bash
21:06	noprompt	i'm excited about pedestal though. haven't had a chance to run through the docs yet.
21:06	noprompt	lol php
21:06	hiredman	picky eating is what keeps you from having poison control on speed dial
21:07	noprompt	brehaut: there are people in my town that will defend php to the death and burn you at the steak for talking bad about it.
21:07	amalloy	lovemuffin: try and finally are free. throw and catch are pretty expensive and shouldn't be used for ordinary flow control
21:07	noprompt	for some reason i can't get those people to show up to our local hacker meetup.
21:08	brehaut	noprompt: certainly. im not actually disparaging PHP per se there (though i do hate it), but its about the only language community which isnt picky about things
21:08	tyler__	hiredman: not eating poison is what keeps you from having posion control on speed dial
21:08	thm_prover	I need to use OpenGL from clojure due to performance reasons. Should I go with JOGL or LWGJL ?
21:08	hiredman	amalloy: that is not strictly true, finally compiles down to a catch
21:09	amalloy	hiredman: for the "an exception happened" case, sure. but if no exception is thrown finally is free, isn't it?
21:09	hiredman	so finally has what performance characteristics a catch has
21:09	noprompt	brehaut: that's because they have no taste.
21:09	hiredman	amalloy: "throw and catch are pretty expensive"
21:10	weavejester	I think I need to try out Pedestal before I can form a good judgement, but there are a lot of things in there that seem… maybe like it's doing too much.
21:11	xeqi	(inc weavejester)
21:11	lazybot	⇒ 7
21:11	noprompt	one nice thing about frameworks though, is that i don't have to worry that the guy that takes over after i do will be up shit creek without a paddle.
21:11	hiredman	yeah, I am interested in interceptors as an async middleware model, but I don't want a new routing dsl, or the SSE stuff
21:12	noprompt	i have a few small apps that are hand rolled. they're documented, but i always worry it's gonna trip the next guy up.
21:13	weavejester	I'm a little suspicious of HTTP async (long polling etc.) in general. It's a lot of extra work to support what is essentially a protocol hack, and made largely obsolete by websockets.
21:13	devn	noprompt: I think that's where all of my rambling ultimately takes me w/r/t frameworks.
21:13	devn	Selling clojure work is made more difficult by a lack of consistency between projects.
21:14	xeqi	I've been directing new people towards http://www.luminusweb.net/ for the consistency reason
21:15	noprompt	devn: selling clojure to other devs has been tough for me in general.
21:15	noprompt	they just see lisp and shutdown
21:15	noprompt	running back to ruby or shiver python
21:15	devn	idk, to be clear I was not reacting to pedestal, just to the parrotted "libraries over frameworks" thing. i hear it over and over, and i don't think it's inspiring anyone.
21:16	noprompt	i've tried both approaches. and my favor tends to using libraries.
21:16	noprompt	maybe that's because i've been burned less in that department.
21:16	noprompt	rails has burned me so many times.
21:17	noprompt	once i spent 11 hours trying to figure out a character encoding problem.
21:17	brehaut	noprompt: my thought is that interesting things are different. if its not different to other things, why bother doing it
21:17	devn	let people build things and the ones that are "good" will get used. there doesn't need to be a set of requirements to building stuff in clojure. Stuart Halloway said "Clojure is a consenting adults language" a long time ago. I like the spirit of that.
21:17	noprompt	turns out the `raw` method in rails changes a strings encoding.
21:17	devn	brehaut: because sometimes the same thing can be done way, way better.
21:18	noprompt	brehaut: i can respect and agree with you there.
21:19	noprompt	brehaut: it's like the old saying. if there's anything worth doing...
21:19	brehaut	noprompt: exactly
21:20	noprompt	speaking of which vim-clojure-static will have over the top support for regular expression syntax highlighting soon :)
21:20	noprompt	spent about two weeks polishing it.
21:21	noprompt	out of curiosity does anyone know of a regex optimizer?
21:22	xeqi	weavejester: are there any plans for a hiccup2 w/ string escaping soon? Considering building a fork with some changes in https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/blob/master/src/clojars/web/safe_hiccup.clj, and would hate to find out it gets obsoleted in a month
21:22	clojurebot	fork is FORK IT, FORK IT NOW!
21:22	xeqi	clojurebot: spork it now!
21:22	clojurebot	<brehaut> sporks are half way between a spoon and a fork
21:22	blr	clojurebot is wise.
21:23	brehaut	O_o
21:23	noprompt	ie. given a some pattern, optomize it to reduce the number of backtracks, etc.
21:25	noprompt	guess i'm gonna have to roll up my sleeves :)
21:26	weavejester	xeqi: Sorry, I just haven't had any time to work on Hiccup.
21:27	amalloy	brehaut: apparently you were talking about emacs for macosx at the time, telling someone it was a proper build rather than a fork
21:27	brehaut	amalloy: huh.
21:27	brehaut	i presume it was only slightly more coherent at the time
21:28	xeqi	weavejester: np, just don't want to step on any toes
21:28	amalloy	brehaut: http://logs.lazybot.org/irc.freenode.net/%23clojure/2011-10-11.txt
21:55	tieTYT2	what's the "n" stand for in defn?
21:55	yedi	def fn
21:56	tieTYT2	ah :)
21:56	yedi	(def (fn [] "a function")) -> (defn [] "a function")
21:56	tieTYT2	thanks
21:56	yedi	np
21:57	yedi	lol i forgot the names... oh wells
21:57	tieTYT2	it's weird to me that clojure can do sequences of events in its functions (like a println). Seems imperative more than functional
21:58	tieTYT2	maybe that's using monads like haskell does?
21:58	benmoss	its not a purely functional language
21:59	tieTYT2	(defn foo [x] [x (+ x 2) (* x 2)])
21:59	tieTYT2	nm
22:00	tieTYT2	well actually, when I typed "foo 3" into the repl instead of "(foo 3)" It returned 3. Why did it do that?
22:00	yogthos	cause you made 2 statements
22:01	yogthos	they're unrelated
22:01	yogthos	you said foo, then you said 3
22:01	tieTYT2	what did the first statement do?
22:01	yogthos	nothing
22:01	yogthos	you just referred to the symbol foo
22:01	yogthos	and it returned it
22:01	tieTYT2	oh
22:01	tieTYT2	ok
22:01	tieTYT2	thanks
22:01	yogthos	should've looked something like #<repl$foo processing.repl$foo@1b42008f>
22:02	yogthos	in general your code is written as a tree
22:02	tieTYT2	yep
22:02	yogthos	and whatever the last statement is in any function is what gets returned
22:03	tieTYT2	why's that a tree vs a list?
22:03	yogthos	because you can nest statements
22:03	yogthos	(defn foo [x y]
22:03	yogthos	(println x y)
22:03	yogthos	(* y
22:03	yogthos	(+ x y)))
22:04	yogthos	for example foo has 2 nodes if you like println and *
22:04	yogthos	* has another node inside it that's +
22:04	tieTYT2	oh
22:05	yogthos	so when you read the function you know that the output of println is discarded since it's on the same level as (*
22:06	tieTYT2	why do i know that? Because the println comes first?
22:07	tieTYT2	related to this, the tutorial says, "If you want to make an expression that has some side-effects before it evaluates to a value, use do:" But doesn't foo make an expression w/ side effects without using a do?
22:07	yogthos	right, if you have multiple statements on the same level, the last one is what's returned
22:08	yogthos	the reason you use do is for expressions which take exactly 3 values
22:08	yogthos	for example consider the if statement
22:08	yogthos	it goes (if foo bar baz)
22:08	tieTYT2	ah "We say that let expressions and function bodies (and also loop expressions, which you'll read about later in Looping and Recursion) have an "implicit do": within them you can list expressions one after another, and they all get evaluated in order (presumably for the side-effects), but the last one is what determines the overall resulting value of the let expression."
22:09	yogthos	so if you wanted to print something you'd do (if foo (do (println "bar") bar) baz)
22:09	yogthos	right, so in let expressions, and function bodies you don't need a do
22:10	tieTYT2	oh i think i get it
22:10	tieTYT2	well sorta. I mean without the do, it would use the nil from the println?
22:10	yogthos	not quite
22:11	yogthos	the if example can only be done with a do
22:11	yogthos	because if expects 3 arguments
22:11	yogthos	println will always return nil, but if you put another statement after it, then that's what gets returned from the do block
22:12	yogthos	but pretty much the only time you need to use do is if you want to cause side effects such as printing
22:12	amalloy	i just had a funny idea: (defmacro do [& body] `(peek [~@body]))
22:12	yogthos	hehe
22:14	tieTYT2	i'd like to test out this do, but lein repl doesn't have history when I press up. I'm using cygwin
22:15	yogthos	amalloy: so it keeps going until it hits the first function that returns something :)
22:16	amalloy	eh?
22:16	yogthos	tieTYT2: light table is not bad for playing around with stuff http://www.lighttable.com/
22:16	yogthos	tieTYT2: it's very interactive
22:16	yogthos	amalloy: your do macro
22:16	thm_prover	is there any way to use opengl with clojure on java 7? it appears lwjgl requires jawt, which java 7 no longer supports; thus, any other options?
22:17	amalloy	yogthos: your statement doesn't seem related to any part of my do macro
22:18	yogthos	amalloy: if you give it (do "x" "y") it will hit x and return it right, but if you do (do (println "foo") (prinlnt "bar") "x") then it will print foo, bar, and return x
22:18	amalloy	no, it behaves exactly like clojure's built-in do
22:19	amalloy	it certainly isn't doing anything like `(first (remove nil? [~@body]))
22:19	yogthos	amalloy: doesn't peek just grab the last thing off the vector?
22:20	amalloy	yes
22:20	yogthos	oh yeah ok makes sense :P
22:20	amalloy	and the last thing in the vector ["x" "y"] is y, not x :P
22:21	yogthos	lol brain fart, forgot the rest will just execute themselves once the macro expands
22:22	nollidj	i'm working on a weekends-and-evenings web project to expand what i can use clojure for
22:23	nollidj	atm i'm trying to get a handle on rich webapp design with clojure
22:25	nollidj	i was hoping that there would be something gwt-like that would let me do something like: define rich page content in hiccup (or another html generator) plus clojurescript, and define backend behavior in clojure, all in the same project
22:26	yogthos	nollidj: take a look at http://www.luminusweb.net/docs
22:26	brainproxy	tieTYT2: that may be a cygwin issue, as `lein repl` on mac/linux offers history and some other niceties
22:26	nollidj	yogthos: thanks
22:26	yogthos	nollidj: no prob :)
22:33	tieTYT2	brainproxy: yeah
22:34	tieTYT2	also, if I type lein trampoline repl it errors saying: Exception in thread "main" clojure.lang.LispReader$ReaderException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported character: \"0
22:35	Frozenlock	http://swannodette.github.com/2013/03/09/logic-programming-is-underrated/ "ruleo" "peopleo" "earliero". Am I the only one who doesn't like the 'o'? :(
22:38	mrb_bk	Frozenlock: I don't mind it.
22:38	mrb_bk	Once I understood the difference between relational and non-relational functions, it helped to have a visual reminder of which one they were
22:40	nollidj	ah, nice. luminus lets me compile cljs to javascript assets i can include as resources, basicalaly?
22:45	tieTYT2	found an answer to my repl history issue: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15490555/how-can-i-get-the-lein-repl-history-to-work-in-cygwin/15490662#15490662
22:46	technomancy	Frozenlock: I wish it would just use namespaces like the rest of clojure
22:49	yogthos	nollidj: yeah pretty much
22:51	yogthos	nollidj: your cljs will get compiled to the public/js folder and then you just use it like any other js from the client side
22:51	yogthos	nollidj: I never got around to making anything fancy for making a browser repl though
22:53	nollidj	yogthos: i see. thanks for the pointer
22:53	Frozenlock	technomancy: obligated capslock... NO NAMESPACE? o_O
22:54	yogthos	nollidj: just let me know if you find anything odd/missing in it :)
22:54	nollidj	yogthos: will do
22:54	yogthos	nollidj: awesome :)
22:54	nollidj	i had a bare-bones something going with ring+compojure, and i'll see what sort of sense i can make of how things are put together here
22:55	yogthos	nollidj: it's pretty much ring+compojure+lib-noir, so should look pretty familiar
22:57	nollidj	i hadn't looked at lib-noir yet, but yeah, it's not doing anything unexpected yet
22:57	nollidj	the last time i tried to get this project off the ground, noir was still the recommended thing to start with
22:59	yogthos	nollidj: bad news is noir got deprecated, good news is that most of the good stuff lives in lib-noir now, and I'm actively maintaining and adding to it with Raynes :)
23:01	adu_	o no
23:01	adu_	I loved noir
23:01	nollidj	yogthos: yes, i managed to catch up that much
23:01	Frozenlock	yogthos: I'm trying clj-pdf and I think :align in tables doesn't work. Am I too tired? Should I go to bed?
23:01	adu_	I was going to use it for production
23:01	austinh	The only problem with the 'o' suffix in core.logic programs, in my opinion, is that lots of regular functions also end in 'o.' I don't think anyone has a problem with other mnemonics like '*' or '?'.
23:01	nollidj	thanks for all the hard work
23:01	Frozenlock	Other than that it's really nice ;-)
23:02	yogthos	adu_: not much changed, luminus works very similarly and batteries are included :)
23:02	austinh	I could see myself using a different convention, like '-o' or something completely different.
23:02	adu_	so what should I be using instead? joodoo?
23:02	yogthos	Frozenlock: it should... :) do you have a snippet handy?
23:02	austinh	The 'o' in TRS is a superscript, in case anyone didn't know that already.
23:03	Frozenlock	austinh: or just '-' I don't pronounce '-' in my head when I read it :p
23:03	yogthos	adu_: if you liked noir I recommend http://www.luminusweb.net/docs
23:03	adu_	yogthos: thanks :)
23:03	Frozenlock	yogthos: oh boy.. give me a minute.
23:03	yogthos	and for anybody who feels adventerous there's now http://pedestal.io/
23:04	austinh	Pedestal sounds awesome.
23:04	yogthos	adu: also, I had a post on moving to compojure from noir http://yogthos.net/blog/33-Moving+to+Compojure
23:04	yogthos	adu: migth be handy
23:05	yogthos	Pedestal looks neat for sure, curious where it'll go
23:05	nollidj	is there any general understanding of where clojurescript one is headed? it seemed like it had some momentum, but i don't get the feeling that it's approaching critical mass
23:06	adu	iirc, joodo and noir confused me alot because they both use hiccup, ring and compojure
23:06	Frozenlock	yogthos: https://www.refheap.com/paste/12707
23:07	Frozenlock	(same as your example, but with :align :right)
23:07	adu	are (hiccup, ring and compojure) now known as pedestal?
23:08	yogthos	adu: pedestal has its own stack it seems
23:08	adu	wut
23:08	yogthos	adu: it does play nice with ring though
23:08	yogthos	Frozenlock: ok let me see what's happening there :)
23:08	Frozenlock	yogthos: Ahhh my eyes! y u hate contrast?
23:08	yogthos	Frozenlock: hehe
23:09	yogthos	Frozenlock: what and where? :)
23:10	Frozenlock	Moving to compojure
23:10	yogthos	Frozenlock: ahh yeah theme's still work in progress :)
23:11	Frozenlock	Let's just say that the transition between solarized-dark and your blog was... brutal :p
23:11	yogthos	rofl
23:12	yogthos	Frozenlock: so with the table you just have to add width to it
23:13	adu	Frozenlock: http://eclipsecolorthemes.org/?view=theme&id=1115 ?
23:13	yogthos	Frozenlock: by default it will expand to the width of the page
23:13	yogthos	Frozenlock: width is in percentage of page width so if you do :width 50 it'll take up half the page and if you have :align :right it'll be on the right
23:14	yogthos	Frozenlock: and yeah that would hurt :P
23:14	Frozenlock	adu: Yes, but for the awesomer emacs
23:14	adu	oic
23:14	adu	I use emacs
23:14	adu	alot
23:14	yogthos	I'm just holding out for light table to get more stable now ;P
23:15	adu	my work bought me IntelliJ, but I still use Emacs
23:15	Frozenlock	yogthos: Ahhh! I thought I could align the 'text' to the right, not the table. My apologies.
23:16	zakwilson	nrepl.el seems to be pretty bad at displaying function documentation in the minibuffer while editing source buffers. It shows up sometimes and not others, and it's slow.
23:16	Frozenlock	Doc in the minibuffer, or the arguments?
23:17	adu	yogthos: why is the delete button visible when I'm not even logged in to your blog?
23:17	yogthos	adu: probably a bug :)
23:18	adu	yogthos: and at the bottom it says "Commenting as Yogthos"
23:18	Frozenlock	adu: Why is the 'logout' button visible? :P
23:18	adu	Frozenlock: yes
23:18	yogthos	oh dears :P
23:18	Frozenlock	Yup I also have "Commenting as Yogthos"
23:19	adu	yogthos: I think you need to work on your auth
23:19	yogthos	haha I think it's my brilliatn content caching :P
23:19	yogthos	lol try actually comment
23:19	yogthos	curious
23:19	Frozenlock	Now, where is the button "bank transfer"?
23:19	yogthos	hahaha
23:20	austinh	Does anyone have any nrepl.el customizations in .emacs, beyond what is here?: https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el
23:20	adu	yogthos: oh content cache would explain it too
23:20	yogthos	that's an interesting artifact of content caching ;)
23:21	austinh	Specifically, I'd like to disable the highlighting of errors, and whatever causes nrepl-error to be removed from my buffer history.
23:21	yogthos	I guess I should really not cache stuff for the admin
23:22	yogthos	but now you can see how the admin ui works :P
23:22	adu	heh
23:22	adu	well, I tried submiting as you, and I can't
23:22	zakwilson	Frozenlock: arg list
23:22	adu	so it must be caching
23:22	yogthos	yeah it is
23:22	yogthos	lol did get a bit of a scare though :P
23:22	tieTYT2	haskell has foldl and foldr, looks like clojure just has reduce. How do you do something like foldr? Reverse the list first?
23:24	Frozenlock	zakwilson: For me it only shows up in the nrepl buffer... need to tweek my .emacs I think.
23:26	Frozenlock	Added (add-hook 'nrepl-interaction-mode-hook 'nrepl-turn-on-eldoc-mode) and now it's purrrrfect.
23:26	devn	pedestal is pretty cool
23:26	austinh	tieTYT2: There is some discussion here: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/clojure/MizwTxHwLE4
23:26	Frozenlock	devn: I'm still waiting for a screencast :P
23:26	devn	Frozenlock: that's all well and good, but it's nice code, interesting ideas
23:26	devn	kind of a fun read
23:27	yogthos	I'd like to see more examples :)
23:27	yogthos	the chat server is a bit busy
23:27	devn	i think that's the consensus and i agree
23:27	devn	but it's cool to read
23:27	yogthos	indeed
23:27	yogthos	the routing is nifty
23:27	tieTYT2	hehe i'm reading that
23:27	zakwilson	Frozenlock: yeah, that seems to make it work. I could swear it was working some of the time and not others before though, and it's still slower than Slime.
23:27	devn	oh im talking about the app_tools code right now
23:27	tieTYT2	i would think haskell would have the same issue
23:28	tieTYT2	why does this snippet use def and not defn: (def fewer-args (partial lots-of-args 10 20 30))
23:28	tieTYT2	that reminds me of haskells point free notation
23:29	Frozenlock	yogthos: Is there a way to align stuff to the right (or center) in clj-pdf tables?
23:29	yogthos	Frozenlock: text wise?
23:30	Frozenlock	yes
23:30	yogthos	Frozenlock: I think so, have to take a look
23:39	yogthos	Frozenlock: so yeah in tables things seem to get a bit funky unfortunately
23:41	adu	who was asking for reduce-right?
23:41	adu	tieTYT: https://www.refheap.com/paste/12708
23:41	Frozenlock	yogthos: aww, only bummer in what was otherwise a flawless experience ;-)
23:42	tieTYT2	adu: me
23:42	yogthos	Frozenlock: hehe yeah I figured out how to get around a lot of itext weirdness, but not this one :)
23:42	tieTYT2	adu: thanks, you also taught me how to define variable length functions
23:42	tieTYT2	i thought you do that with the [& rest]
23:42	adu	tieTYT2: yeah, they're pretty nice
23:43	tomoj	we should be able to do much better than reverse in some cases :(
23:43	adu	scheme calls them case-lambda's
23:43	tieTYT2	i see
23:43	tieTYT2	afaict, haskell didn't have variable length functions
23:43	yogthos	Frozenlock: looks like might be an easy fix actually http://www.docjar.com/docs/api/com/lowagie/text/Cell.html
23:43	tieTYT2	nor overloading
23:43	adu	nope
23:43	adu	tieTYT2: actually it does have overloading
23:43	tieTYT2	how?
23:43	clojurebot	with style and grace
23:44	adu	tieTYT2: because haskell has pattern matching
23:44	yogthos	Frozenlock: the cell has an horizontal align property that I'm just not using, let me see if it does what it looks like it should :)
23:44	tieTYT2	how's that overloading?
23:44	adu	tieTYT2: you could have (Either A B) as the declared type, then f (Left x) = implA, f (Right y) = implB
23:45	tieTYT2	yes but i don't consider that overloading
23:45	adu	tieTYT2: oh ok, i do
23:45	tieTYT2	because you still have to pass in an Either
23:45	tieTYT2	if you could pass in a String, i'd consider that overloading
23:45	adu	tieTYT2: that's what typeclasses are for
23:45	tieTYT2	yeah