#clojure – 2013-03-16

2013-03-16

00:00	yedi	that's all good an well, but I want my app to work locally as well
00:00	yedi	so I want to be able to set the properties locally
00:02	jeremyheiler	yedi: Are you using lein?
00:02	yedi	to deploy to beanstalk, yes
00:02	yedi	to do everythinf*
00:03	jeremyheiler	If you're using lein to run the application locally, I think you can set :jvm-opts in your project.clj to set -D options.
00:03	tyler__	is there a clojure lib for running popular shell commands like `ls` `ps` etc but not from the shell, a native clojure version of it
00:05	ToxicFrog	I have caused the best error
00:05	ToxicFrog	2013-03-16 00:06:08,544 ERROR - (nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil)
00:06	tyler__	heh
00:06	jeremyheiler	tyler__: Well, you could use fs to emulate ls.
00:06	amalloy	tyler__: you want conch, by Raynes
00:06	jeremyheiler	tyler__: Actually, there is fs.core/list-dir
00:07	tyler__	Raynes makes some good stuff
00:07	Raynes	amalloy: He said specifically a native Clojure version of it though, so fs is what he wants in this case.
00:07	Raynes	http://github.com/Raynes/fs
00:07	Raynes	tyler__: ^
00:07	amalloy	oh. i filtered that, because it's a crazy thing to want
00:07	tyler__	what im really looking for is anything that outputs datastructures
00:07	tyler__	it cnabe java
00:07	Raynes	lol
00:07	tyler__	can be*
00:08	amalloy	nobody is going to reimplement an operating system in clojure
00:08	tyler__	seems like an honest ambition if someone were to do it
00:08	tyler__	heh
00:09	yedi	jeremyheiler: -D options?
00:09	jeremyheiler	tyler__: You're trollin'
00:09	jeremyheiler	lol
00:09	tyler__	im not saying they should
00:09	tyler__	im just saying i would cheer them if they did
00:09	jeremyheiler	yedi: Read up on java command line -D
00:09	amalloy	you'll just get the lisp-curse version of an operating system
00:09	amalloy	"all these other lisp operating systems are kinda okay, but they're missing feature X and do Y in a really weird way, i'll just write my own"
00:10	jeremyheiler	yedi: Better yet, just type "java" in a terminal and it explains it.
00:10	yedi	oh cool, thanks jeremyheiler
00:11	tyler__	im trying to build a system that talks to a server over ssh to get a bunch of meta about the server, right now im using standard shell commands to get data, but each one of them has their own output format
00:11	tyler__	and its a pain in the ass
00:12	jeremyheiler	yedi: np
00:12	tyler__	i found a good awk script that converts column output to json
00:13	tyler__	but ls is pesudocolumns
00:13	tyler__	heh
00:13	jeremyheiler	tyler__: Welcome to unix :-)
00:13	tyler__	jeremyheiler: which is why i said a clojure os wouldn't be so bad
00:39	technomancy	so... for syme. I want to set up DNS entries for instances so you can do `ssh syme@technomancy.syme.in`
00:39	technomancy	but the problem is there isn't a 1:1 mapping from usernames to instances
00:39	technomancy	I could launch a bunch of instances
00:40	technomancy	so the question is: is it worth subdividing it so that you have to do something like `ssh syme@technomancy.3.syme.in` so they can all be addressed? or should the DNS names only be set up for one instance per user?
00:59	jetkoten	hi all
01:43	yunfan	nice , i am in lispcn-2013-beijing
01:44	yunfan	people all talk clojure
03:13	xorola	Hi guys, what are plans for improving clojure documentation? does anybody thought/discussed about it?
03:22	john2x	any getting started tutorial for lib-noir? or would webnoir.org's tutorial be viable?
03:45	mjc	or perhaps luminus
05:04	maio	technomancy: is it useful to have multiple active instances?
05:09	maio	technomancy: btw what about project.user.syme.in?
05:32	mpenet	anyone knows how to type a merged map of 2 other possible types in core.typed (if that's possible)?
05:34	mpenet	ex a merge of (HMap {:a '1}) (HMap {:a '2}) where these 2 are aliased, so if possible avoiding repetitions
05:38	mindbender1	how can I get cljsc to copy my js lib to the public directory and update deps.js(main.js) to point to it rather than point to it's orginal location which is not available to the webserver?
05:39	mindbender1	I'm hoping someone understands
06:59	tdignan	In the clojure repl, how do I enter a tab for purely aesthetic/indentation purposes?
07:12	pepijndevos	tdignan, you can't? Maybe by not using readline? I don't know.
07:39	tdignan	pepijndevos: ah, interesting
07:42	tdignan	clojure -r works
07:42	tdignan	but if I run 'clojure' or 'lein repl'
07:42	tdignan	the tab goes straight to completion
09:12	ravster	morning, all
09:14	skelternet	(send-off ravster (top morning))
09:15	john2x	compojure, ring newbie here. how do I assign a ring handler with compojure's GET macro?
09:17	ravster	john2x: (GET "uri" [] handler)
09:17	ravster	I nearly always just send the entire request object to the handler.
09:19	john2x	ohh cool, thanks. I was doing it with (handler).
09:21	john2x	hmm but then how do I pass the arguments from a uri like "/user/:id"?
09:21	john2x	I'm geting ArityException with (GET "/user/:id" [id] handler)
09:21	ravster	https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/wiki/Routes-In-Detail
09:22	ravster	john2x: do you have wrap-params?
09:22	ravster	and what are the arguments your handler is expecting?
09:23	john2x	ravster: no wrap-params (yet. not sure when i'd use it). handler is (defn handler [request id] …)
09:39	john2x	ah so it get's included in (:params request). cool
09:42	mpenet	ambrosebs: Hi, could you have a look at this gist, it something I didn't manage to express so far. I am probably missing something obvious https://gist.github.com/mpenet/5175786
09:42	mpenet
09:44	ambrosebs	mpenet: you want to express a type that has an :a but not a :b?
09:45	ambrosebs	I guess that would solve it
09:47	ambrosebs	mpenet: Something like (U (HMap {:a 1} :without [:b]) (HMap {:b 2} :without [:a]) '{:a 1 :b 2}) would be nice
09:47	ambrosebs	The reason I don't have this currently is that this is sort of half assed row polymorphism, which I would like to fully support.
09:49	mpenet	not really, it can have a key :b but if it's the case it must match the contraint
09:49	mpenet	I will have to wrap this in another type I think
09:49	ambrosebs	Wait, is :b optional?
09:49	mpenet	I would like to only allow {:a 1} {:b 2} or {:a 1, :b 2}, but not {:a 0 :b 4} or {:d 234}
09:50	mpenet	yes
09:51	mpenet	the use case is for a korma'isn library, where I want statements (maps) to only allow certain clauses (also maps)
09:52	mpenet	right now I use an union, it's fine if the user only supply maps with keys that are typed, but not if some unknown key creeps in
09:52	ambrosebs	Yes, it's not possible currently to express this. Specifically the third case is a subtype of '{:a 1} which has no constraint on :b.
09:53	mpenet	right, no big deal, worse case scenario I'll use macros, or just copy paste some code :)
09:54	ambrosebs	mpenet: yes, this is a classic case for row polymorphism.
09:55	mpenet	I have to read about that! Thanks for the help.
09:56	ambrosebs	mpenet: Now that I think about it, this is a fatal flaw of :optional.
09:57	ambrosebs	well it's not unsound, but it's not very useful.
09:57	augustl	portland! Gonna be gooood..
09:58	torn	hi there, i've installed the latest java jdk 1.7, and leiningen, and created a new lein project
09:59	torn	when i do 'lein repl' it downloads a bunch of jars into my .m2 repository but then dies with "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: defn in this context2
09:59	torn	-2*
09:59	torn	any ideas?
10:00	mpenet	ambrosebs: I will have to use optional anyway I think, some statements have clauses that are required and some optional, I will have to make some tradeoffs, I have to run now, but I will try this later today/tonight
10:01	torn	I do get a few maven errors - Could not find artifact slingshot:slingshot:pom:0.10.2 in central, cheshire:pom:3.1.0, clojure-complete:jar:0.2.1, cd-client:jar:0.3.4, clj-http:jar:0.3.5
10:01	augustl	torn: you didn't change anything in the output of "lein new"?
10:01	torn	nope nothing changes
10:01	torn	changed*
10:01	ambrosebs	mpenet: sure, be aware :optional keys may not be of the type stated in the :optional map.
10:01	augustl	tomoj: lein -v?
10:02	augustl	err, torn
10:02	torn	Leiningen 2.0.0-preview10 on Java 1.7.0_17 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM
10:02	mpenet	ambrosebs: noted
10:03	torn	i'm thinking maybe maven central doesn't have the jar versions that my version of leiningen wants to download?
10:03	augustl	torn: that's not the latest version, but still weird :)
10:03	torn	I installed it using 'Chocolatey' package manager for windows
10:04	torn	what is the latest version?
10:04	torn	i can try a lein upgraade
10:06	augustl	tomoj: 2.0.0
10:07	torn	without the -preview10 i guess
10:07	torn	hmm gives me a 403 when I try to self-install to 2.0.0
10:10	augustl	I've never used leiningen on windows so I should probably shut up ;)
10:13	torn	hmm ok i've uninstalled chocolately package manager
10:13	torn	and installed lein by hand using the lein.bat file
10:14	torn	cleared out my m2 repo also
10:14	torn	this time 'lein repl' has no dependency issues with maven, but i still get the "Unable to resolve symbol: defn in this context" issue
10:15	augustl	seems like clojure.core isn't loaded properly (wild guess)
10:16	torn	ah it seems the version of lein installed with chocolately didn't make the project properly
10:16	torn	or, aha! maybe calling my project 'clojure' was a bad idea (tm)
10:17	yedi	why is paredit indenting this all wierd: https://gist.github.com/yedi/5176574
10:17	torn	anyone here use Light Table IDE?
10:18	augustl	torn: ah :)
10:19	augustl	and leiningen by default creates yourproject.core :)
10:19	torn	yup
10:19	yedi	oh whoops, updated: https://gist.github.com/yedi/5176574
10:19	hyPiRion	torn: yeah, that's fixed by technomancy/leiningen#1017, so that bug will be gone by 2.1.0
10:19	lazybot	lein new should reject projects named "clojure" -- https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1017 is closed
10:19	hyPiRion	heh
10:19	augustl	any early birds in Portland wanna meet up for some food?
10:20	torn	closed 21 days ago, i guess the version installed with chocolately didn't have that fix in
10:20	torn	ok repl seems to work
10:20	torn	now I need to get my head around light table, see if i can run a repl in that
10:30	torn	anyone here run lein-light with light table?
10:31	yedi	does anyone have experience setting up RDS with elastic beanstalk
10:31	yedi	i'm having issues figuring out how I should be going about it
10:35	yedi	slightly related question: will running lein beanstalk deploy update the app on beanstalk? or will it terminate and redeploy?
11:02	torn	oh man light table is pretty neat
11:21	technomancy	maio: heh; missed you last night. so yeah, I think there's really no reason you can't re-use instances; better to manually bootstrap an existing instance for a new project than wait for a new one to boot.
11:22	technomancy	maio: OTOH, do we enforce this limitation? if not then we have to be clever and fall back to the IP if someone launches a second instance without halting the first.
11:22	technomancy	the problem with username.project.syme.in is that project is multi-segmented
11:23	technomancy	so it'd have to be technomancy.technomancy.syme.syme.in which is even more annoying than the IP =)
11:24	Pure-Loulou	.(#((first '(and a b)) % %2) false true)
11:24	technomancy	I guess we could assume each user is not going to hack on multiple forks of a project I guess
11:24	Pure-Loulou	why this returns true? any help?
11:24	clojurebot	A bug report (or other request for help) has three parts: What you did; what you expected to happen; what happened instead. If any of those three are missing, it's awfully hard to help you.
11:25	hyPiRion	Pure-Loulou: '(and a b) is a list with three symbols, and symbols are IFns
11:26	Pure-Loulou	IFns?
11:26	hyPiRion	,('and false true)
11:26	clojurebot	true
11:26	hyPiRion	,('and {'and :hello} true)
11:26	clojurebot	:hello
11:26	hyPiRion	So they are like keywords, maps, sets and vectors
11:26	hyPiRion	you can call them with functions
11:26	hyPiRion	/s/with/as/
11:26	Pure-Loulou	,(#((eval (first '(and a b))) % %2) false true)
11:26	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
11:27	Pure-Loulou	how to wright this so it works?
11:28	hyPiRion	You could do (eval (list (first '(and a b)) false true))
11:28	hyPiRion	since and is a macro, you cannot use it as a function itself
11:28	Pure-Loulou	ok:) thx
11:45	thorwil	with a nrepl server provided by immutant, a (use 'midje.repl) in user leads to: FileNotFoundException project.clj (No such file or directory) java.io.FileInputStream.open (FileInputStream.java:-2)
11:45	thorwil	(trying to follow https://github.com/marick/Midje/wiki/Repl-tools)
11:47	hyPiRion	thorwil: Are you using leiningen for project management?
11:47	thorwil	hyPiRion: yes
11:51	thorwil	so far i relied on "lein midje" if i wanted to run all tests, otherwise relying on midje-check-fact-near-point
11:51	jonasac	#(fn %) => #(fn &%) is it possible ?
11:52	thorwil	but now "lein midje" fails to resolve a dependency, while "lein immutant run" works fine. so i'm investigating how to run all tests from nrepl
11:54	thorwil	and fail to find a way to make load-facts available :/
12:01	jcrossley3	thorwil: it's possible that midje is making some assumptions about the current working directory of the jvm
12:02	jcrossley3	try 'lein immutant run' after cd'ing to the directory containing your project.clj
12:03	piranha	octagon: hi? :)
12:03	octagon	piranha: hey! how's it going?
12:03	thorwil	jcrossley3: that's already the case. i never run it from any other dir
12:04	piranha	octagon: well, still haven't figured out problem with state not updating in the middle of change
12:04	piranha	octagon: that's actually what I wanted to ask, if you had a chance to look at it :))
12:04	jcrossley3	thorwil: hmm. what version of midje? is this a public app i can clone and try?
12:05	octagon	piranha: i did "make" but i didn't get anything but js files
12:05	thorwil	jcrossley3: just updated to midje 1.5.0
12:05	octagon	piranha: i'd like to be able to experiment with the actual app live
12:05	piranha	octagon: if you open 'build/index.html', it opens it in browser
12:05	octagon	piranha: oh ok, cool
12:05	piranha	'make' is just shortcut for me to not type 'lein cljsbuild auto main'
12:06	thorwil	jcrossley3: https://github.com/thorwil/tlog but i just now pushed the changes to project.clj
12:06	octagon	piranha: i think your problem is maybe related to creating cells out of order, which is a weird issue i've run into in my own apps
12:07	piranha	octagon: oh... not sure, I really was a bit lost in traceback there, it's still a bit hard to debug clojurescript
12:07	octagon	piranha: like i've found that especially with formula cells, the dependencies don't get set up correctly if the cells they depend on don't exist when they're created
12:07	piranha	octagon: ah, but in this case it shouldn't be a dependency, it's just assignment to cell somewhere in a function
12:08	octagon	piranha: it's because when you create a formula it's trying to set up the dependency graph ranks, and if dependencies don't exist then weirdness might result
12:08	piranha	hm, doesn't look like a case to me
12:08	maio	technomancy: oh yeah good point about the hostname - i missed that. but yeah I think we could assume that person wouldn't work on different forks
12:20	technomancy	maio: yeah, sounds good. as long as it can fall back to showing the IP when a specific instance has its subdomain deregistered we'd be good
12:20	Glenjamin	Hi guys, does anyone know if there's a non-trivial compojure app that's open-sourced?
12:20	Glenjamin	I'm trying to get started but the examples I can find are quite light
12:20	technomancy	Glenjamin: oh yeah absolutely; funny you should ask: https://syme.herokuapp.com
12:20	technomancy	well... it's still on the simple side. but quite useful =)
12:21	technomancy	Glenjamin: the biggest OSS compojure app is Clojars
12:22	Glenjamin	i'm mostly trying to figure out how much logic to put in the def-routes definition vs spinning out functions, where to put things, and how to test effectively without running every case end-to-end
12:22	maio	technomancy: btw what are you using these hostnames for? why not just IP?
12:24	maio	technomancy: btw here is the status page I'm working on - http://maio.cz/tmp/syme/Screen%20Shot%202013-03-16%20at%205.23.04%20PM.png
12:44	mye	What's the canonical way to join to longs and get the bigint that represents? Do I have to join up the individual bytes? (New to JVM bit twiddling..)
12:53	Guest76401	hello
12:53	Guest76401	Is it okay if I pose a begginer macro question?
12:54	Guest76401	I want to make a macro that returns a function.
12:54	Guest76401	This is what I've got:
12:55	Guest76401	(defmacro rotate-base [code]
12:55	Guest76401	`(fn [piece]
12:55	Guest76401	(let [s (dec (count piece))]
12:55	Guest76401	(map #(let [[x y] %] ~code) piece))))
12:55	Guest76401
12:55	Guest76401	(rotate-base '(list y (- s x)))
12:55	Guest76401	This does not work. Why?
12:57	momomomomo	Guest76401: That's a terrible way to ask for help haha. Paste your code into a http://gist.github.com/ and explain where you think it might be failing
12:58	xeqi	Guest76401: hmm, looks like what you want could just be a function
12:58	Guest76401	Thank you momo...
12:58	xeqi	well, almost
12:59	Guest76401	xeqi: the reason for macro is that i've got diffrent code snippets
13:01	Guest76401	https://gist.github.com/anonymous/5177314
13:02	tomoj	"explain where you think it might be failing" -- "Can't use qualified name as parameter" ?
13:03	arcatan	Guest76401: you can look at what that expands into with (macroexpand '(rotate-base '(list y (- s x))))
13:03	Guest76401	yes i have tried macroexpand
13:04	Guest76401	(macroexpand-1 '(rotate-base (list y (- s x))))
13:04	Guest76401	(clojure.core/fn [user/piece] (clojure.core/let [user/s (clojure.core/dec (clojure.core/count user/piece))] (clojure
13:04	Guest76401	e/map (fn* [p1__1__2__auto__] (clojure.core/let [[user/x user/y] p1__1__2__auto__] (list y (- s x)))) user/piece)))
13:04	momomomomo	Guest76401: Try editing the gist you've created. It's hard to parse code in an irc client.
13:04	arcatan	Guest76401: piece becomes user/piece, but that's not what you want. you'll want it to have a new unique name i.e. use gensym. rename piece to #piece
13:04	arcatan	Guest76401: sorry, piece -> piece#
13:05	Guest76401	ok thanks arcatan
13:05	tomoj	basically you're trying to do something evil (unhygienically bind x/y, letting them leak out into the code the macro-user writes) and clojure is preventing you
13:05	arcatan	also listen to tomoj :)
13:05	Guest76401	momo... thank you for the comments i will ask question in a better way in the future
13:06	Guest76401	thanks arcatan and tomoj, will try/read about it
13:06	tomoj	consider writing it as a higher order function instead of a macro
13:06	tomoj	perhaps: (defn base-rotater [f] (fn [piece] (let [s (dec (count piece))] (map (fn [[x y]] (f s x y)) piece))))
13:07	Guest76401	yes i did higher-order function previously, just thought macro was the way to do things
13:07	tomoj	(base-rotater (fn [s x y] (list y (- s x))))
13:08	SegFaultAX	Guest76401: As a rule of thumb: if it can be written as a function, write it as a function. Try to stave off converting it to a macro unless you're absolutely sure that's what you want.
13:08	SegFaultAX	I also happen to think tomoj's curried approach is nicer.
13:10	Guest76401	ok
13:11	Guest76401	Im new to macros but have done functional-programming previously, thought macros was the thing to do often.
13:11	Guest76401	I'm finished with this question, I have learned somethings :).
13:12	SegFaultAX	Guest76401: I think most people would agree that macros aren't usually the first thing you should jump to. But sometimes they are absolutely perfect for what you're trying to do.
13:12	Guest76401	ok
13:12	SegFaultAX	Guest76401: While you're learning, it might be useful to adopt the previously mentioned guiding principle of defaulting to functions as much as possible.
13:12	Guest76401	yea
13:12	tomoj	maybe there is a function Duration -> Int which tells you the number of consecutive heads you need to see from a fair coin to say "OK, I really need a macro" given the amount of time you're been learning clojure
13:13	drorbemet	Hi, what does a cross behind a name of a liningen plugin mean exactly?
13:13	Guest76401	tomoj: ok
13:14	SegFaultAX	drorbemet: What do you mean?
13:14	drorbemet	e.g. lein-autotest† Start Lazytest's ... @ https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Plugins
13:15	xeqi	drorbemet: "Plugins marked with † have not been confirmed to work with Leiningen 2." from the top of the page
13:16	SegFaultAX	drorbemet: It says it right at the top
13:16	drorbemet	Ah, thanks :-)
13:16	drorbemet	Now I saw it too ..
13:22	drorbemet	Actually I am looking for the current way to do TDD with automatic execution on change of the source code. There are so many projects to choose from: expectations, Midj, speclj, lein-autotest, lein-autoexpect ... I want to configure Eclipse and Emacs for "autotest".
13:24	drorbemet	I am trying to get expectations and lein-expectations to run with Eclipse under Windows but I still havn't figured out the configuration.
13:24	drorbemet	sorry I meant lein-autoexpect
13:24	clojure-new	Hello, i'm getting "Warning: profile :base not found." with lein from git, how can i fix it?
13:25	hyPiRion	clojure-new: Ignore it for now
13:25	hyPiRion	or use 2.0.0 until we've released 2.1.0 :)
13:25	clojure-new	hyPiRion: Ok. :)
13:26	hyPiRion	It should be out by tuesday-wednesday
13:30	lynaghk	drorbemet: the latest version of lein-midje has autotest built into it---you can just run "lein midje :autotest" and you'll get automatic source reloading and test execution
13:32	drorbemet	Oh, that's great! Then I'll take that. Thanks for the hint :-)
13:41	SegFaultAX	lynaghk: I hadn't looked at midje very closely until you brought it up. (I've been using clojure.test up til now). Midje looks pretty sweet.
13:50	ToxicFrog	So, I have a macro with a type annotation on some of its arguments.
13:50	ToxicFrog	But it will still happily be called on the wrong things.
13:50	ToxicFrog	What is the appropriate way to add type checking to the macro? Just (assert) that the types are correct?
13:51	mpenet	ambroseb_: is there a way to express a native java array of X (with All) to handle "[LSomething;" or do I need to fallback to Ljava.lang.Object ?
13:53	mpenet	seems convoluted, I will use Ljava.lang.Object + Any in the Fn body for now
13:55	mpenet	or better pass something sequential to this function and kill some ugly in the process
13:55	ambroseb_	mpenet: use (Array Something)
13:56	ambroseb_	Does LObject actually work?
13:56	mpenet	I didn't try yet, still drafting
13:56	mpenet	oh I missed Array
13:57	ambroseb_	mpenet: There's (Array wr), (Array2 w r), and (ReadOnlyArray r), which is an alias for (Array2 Nothing r)
13:57	ambroseb_	It's a solution to array covariance while preserving static soundness.
13:58	mpenet	nice
13:58	ambroseb_	eg. use ReadOnlyArray when you have a generic action on arrays.
13:58	tomoj	ToxicFrog: what happens when you don't assert and they pass the wrong thing?
13:58	ambroseb_	mpenet: I'm hoping to elaborate on that idea in a paper I'm coauthoring.
13:59	ambroseb_	"Hey, array covariance doesn't have to suck"
13:59	OneFourSeven	Ambrose, you were in GSOC 2012?
14:00	ambroseb_	OneFourSeven: Yes.
14:00	mpenet	ambroseb_: for my map issue of earlier, since I never have more than 2 or 3 clauses possible, I think ll just create multiple arities with intersections I think, listing the possible combos
14:03	ambroseb_	mpenet: Ah, yes that's probably the correct strategy.
14:03	ambroseb_	mpenet: But the most specific clauses go first. ie. {:a 1 :b 2}
14:03	mpenet	right
14:03	ambroseb_	Good thinking :)
14:03	mpenet	:) learning!
14:04	rebcabin	why doesn't (-> [1 2 3] reverse (partial apply vector)) produce [3 2 1}? instead seems to produce (partial apply vector)
14:04	ambroseb_	If it works out, please post the solution as a response to my google group post.
14:05	mpenet	Will do. I am typing another libary first, it's way smaller and I need to play a bit with All, but I'll go back to the other one later or tomorrow latest.
14:07	bbloom	rebcabin: you're doing (partial (reverse [1 2 3]) apply vector)
14:07	bbloom	,(macroexpand '(-> [1 2 3] reverse (partial apply vector))
14:07	bbloom	)
14:07	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
14:08	bbloom	,(macroexpand '(-> [1 2 3] reverse (partial apply vector)))
14:08	clojurebot	(partial (clojure.core/-> [1 2 3] reverse) apply vector)
14:08	bbloom	rebcabin: try ##(macroexpand '(->> [1 2 3] reverse (partial apply vector)))
14:08	lazybot	⇒ (partial apply vector (clojure.core/->> [1 2 3] reverse))
14:09	rebcabin	ahh, i see
14:10	rebcabin	thanks bbloom and clojurebot
14:11	bbloom	rebcabin: lazybot helped out too :-P i can never remember which meta characters ,&## go to which bot
14:12	rebcabin	(let [f (partial apply vector)] (-> [1 2 3] reverse f)) ; closer to my erroneous expectation
14:12	ambroseb_	If anyone missed it, there's a new core.typed mailing list https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/clojure-core-typed
14:20	tyler__	ohpauleez: you're a portland guy?!
14:20	ohpauleez	tyler__: I am now, mmhmm
14:21	ohpauleez	Previously I've lived in Boston, Philly, NYC, San Francisco and Eugene, OR
14:21	ohpauleez	I grew up in NH
14:21	tyler__	ohpauleez: oh nice we should have you hang out sometime. I work at Little Bird out of PIE we are converting to a clojure stack
14:21	ohpauleez	tyler__: I'm a PIE mentor
14:21	tyler__	ohpauleez: nice
14:21	ohpauleez	always more than happy to help with a Clojure migration
14:21	ohpauleez	:)
14:22	ohpauleez	I really enjoyed the Little Bird demo during demo day
14:22	tyler__	thnx, heh yeah Marshall knows how to give a presentation
14:22	ohpauleez	tyler__: You guys were in Rails before? Or Python?
14:23	tyler__	ohpauleez: ruby, not rails. i hate rails
14:23	tyler__	we are still half ruby
14:23	tyler__	we have a services model with a message queue
14:23	tyler__	so its about half ruby services, half clojure services now
14:23	ohpauleez	tyler__: Ah yes, very common. That's what I was just about to say
14:23	tyler__	maybe still more ruby than clojure
14:24	ohpauleez	we should totally meet up for beer/coffee. And definitely let me know if you guys need any advice on anything
14:24	ohpauleez	I've done the startup thing for awhile now ;)
14:25	tyler__	ohpauleez: you going to clojurewest? (if going? (meet you me))
14:26	ohpauleez	tyler__: I'll be there; Speaking Monday just before Rich
14:26	tyler__	woot
14:26	ohpauleez	http://clojurewest.org/sessions#degrandis
14:29	ToxicFrog	tomoj: the macro runs just fine and I get really confusing errors at runtime because someone passed in a string rather than a regex.
14:30	torn	i'm teaching myself clojure, current playing around with namespaces
14:30	torn	is (str (ns-name ns)) a common thing to do?
14:30	torn	or is there a shorthand to get the name of the current namespace, for when I'm creating namespaced symbols or keywords
14:34	amalloy	torn: not very common, no. namespaced symbols are very rarely needed, and namespaced keywords are fairly rare as well as being easier to get another way
14:34	tyler__	,(namespace ::foo)
14:34	clojurebot	"sandbox"
14:34	amalloy	try: ::foo, for the keyword foo in the current namespace
14:37	tyler__	,(dir sandbox)
14:37	clojurebot	nil
14:37	tyler__	heh
14:38	TimMc	,(-> dir var meta :added)
14:38	clojurebot	nil
14:40	torn	yep i saw ::foo does the current ns
14:40	torn	i guess there's no equivalent for ''foo
14:40	torn	I'd have to (symbol (str (ns-name ns)) "foo")
14:41	mindbender1	I've written a js source that extends closure and I want to make the compiler copy this file to :output-dir as it does with cljs source and jarred sources
14:41	torn	although why i'd want to, i have no idea -- I don't really know what symbols are used for yet - am guessing dynamic evaluation or something
14:41	mindbender1	is this currently possible?
14:44	tomoj	ToxicFrog: then, yeah. normally in clojure you just let the user figure out the confusing errors, because they wrote incorrect code so it's their fault :). but asserting in some cases to make debugging easier is appropriate. especially at macro-time since you don't really have to worry about slowing things down with checks
14:45	tyler__	ohpauleez: we are considering utilizing clojurescript but one of our concerns that that, thus far, our frotn end guys have been mostly html css wizards with no real CompSci concepts. So if we migrate to clojurescript we are feaful we might lock ourselves out of good front end people
14:45	tyler__	s/that that/is that/
14:46	ohpauleez	tyler__: That hasn't been my experience nor Kevin Lynagh's experience
14:47	mindbender1	tyler__: it doesn'tstop your frontend guys from doing their painting job
14:47	ohpauleez	great front end people still cook up baller HTML and CSS - CLJS frees them from having to muck with JS's idiosyncrasies and allows engineers to more easily jump in on the client side
14:47	tyler__	they do a lot of the app logic stuff too
14:47	tyler__	to animate the dom and such
14:47	ohpauleez	I think you'd find you'd start questioning more where things get done
14:47	tyler__	ah
14:48	tomoj	meaning, what, we get more work and the frontend guys get less?
14:48	ohpauleez	CLJS also doesn't exclude the use of JS. I think more people just realize it's easier to express what they want in CLJS once it's in place
14:48	tomoj	s/guys/people/
14:48	tyler__	(inc tomoj)
14:48	lazybot	⇒ 6
14:48	ToxicFrog	tomoj: yeah, that's what I'm after here - I'd rather have a compile-time error because they used the macro incorrectly than get a runtime error much, much later with an unclear origin
14:49	ohpauleez	tyler__: all in all, it comes down to your team, your culture, and the goals of your project
14:49	ohpauleez	Clojure and CLJS aren't always the best tools for the job - but they are pretty amazing tools
14:50	antares_	Neocons 1.1 is released: http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/03/16/neocons-1-dot-1-0-is-released/, plans for the future: http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/03/16/the-future-of-neocons/
14:50	tyler__	if i can mix cljs and vanilla js pretty easilly that could solve our dilemma
14:51	wjlroe	does anyone know if there's an equivalent of lein-ring (with namespace reloading in development) for aleph?
14:51	torn	anyone here find Light Table's line selection / instarepl cursor stuff messes up sometimes?
14:51	mindbender1	I find cljs is best suited for data manipulation on the client
14:52	ohpauleez	tyler__: It's very easy to mix
14:52	mindbender1	the view is best left for an oo framework like closure
14:52	ohpauleez	the one caveat is advanced compilation - if you use it on your CLJS, you're going to need an externs file
14:52	tyler__	mindbender1: i can see how a clojure system could be good for data manipulation ;)
14:53	tomoj	mindbender1: something about the view is inherently suited to an oo framework like closure? or just cljs view libraries aren't there yet?
14:54	mindbender1	even Rich Hickey said that
14:54	tomoj	the former?
14:54	mindbender1	you can't touch a mouse so there's an object
14:55	torn	does idiomatic clojure use camelCase or underscores or dashes for variable / function naming?
14:55	tomoj	where'd rich talk about this?
14:55	wjlroe	torn: dashes
14:55	mindbender1	simplemadeeasy
14:55	tomoj	thanks
14:55	ohpauleez	mindbender1: I'm skeptical of the claims you're making - it is very dependent on the type of application you are creating
14:55	tomoj	seems obvious you need identities, obviously wrong (to me) that OO is well-suited
14:56	tomoj	inherently
14:56	torn	wjlroe: ty - even for function names?
14:56	wjlroe	torn: yup
14:56	mindbender1	I'm not. you only need to show me solid examples
14:56	tyler__	torn: dash all the things
14:56	ohpauleez	ie: perhaps you want to make transitions on the UI, like you would make transitions in data. In which case a Pub/Sub // pipeline // event system is what you want
14:56	egghead	just made it into portland for clj-west :)
14:56	torn	having done a lot of js recently, dashes in things scare me haha
14:56	egghead	lol torn
14:56	ohpauleez	and surely functional approaches to those systems are concise and easy to use
14:56	torn	but i guess dashes by themselves aren't s-expressions so it's all good
14:57	tyler__	having done a lot of js lately, js scares me
14:57	egghead	torn: that's the problem with infix!
14:57	torn	meh js isn't that bad once you get around the prototypal inheritance and closures and function invocation
14:57	egghead	did you mean foo minus bar or to have a ref named foo-bar :)
14:57	mindbender1	I find I just have to embrace both ways of thinking
14:57	ohpauleez	egghead: Welcome to PDX!
14:57	egghead	cheers ohpauleez, using the heck out of your guide
14:58	ohpauleez	egghead: Please do. Everyone should feel free to ping me with questions, requests, etc
14:58	tyler__	egghead: welcome to town
14:58	tyler__	ohpauleez: damn u beat me
14:58	ohpauleez	I literally live a stone's throw from the venue
14:58	ohpauleez	Just me and Fred Armisen, drinking beers
14:58	torn	PDX?
14:58	tyler__	ohpauleez: did you see them filiming grim there last week?
14:58	ohpauleez	torn: Portland, OR
14:59	tyler__	y i no can type
14:59	ohpauleez	tyler__: They shoot Grim all over the place, and it totally messes everything all up haha
14:59	ohpauleez	they shut down my entire block like a month ago
14:59	tyler__	heh
14:59	ohpauleez	which ultimately meant, my dog had no where to shit
14:59	ohpauleez	haha
15:21	clojure-new	(sql/with-connection (db-connection) (sql/with-query-results results ["select * from bla"] results))
15:21	clojure-new	This code produces: java.sql.SQLException: You can't operate on a closed ResultSet!!!
15:22	clojure-new	clojure.java.jdbc -- sql
15:22	clojure-new	What's wrong with it?
15:22	gfredericks	clojure-new: with-query-results
15:22	gfredericks	it expects you to fully process the resultset before returning
15:22	gfredericks	vec is the easiest way to do that
15:23	gfredericks	so return (vec results) instead of results
15:23	gfredericks	results is a lazy sequence that reads from the ResultSet as needed
15:23	clojure-new	gfredericks: Yay, thanks!
15:23	clojure-new	It works now.
15:23	gfredericks	so you can't realize it out of the w-q-r scope
15:24	antares_	clojure-new: if you need some background on that lazy sequences stuff: http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/laziness.html
15:24	clojure-new	antares_: Thank you, i'll read it.
15:33	tomoj	is query the replacement for deprecated with-query-results?
15:38	gfredericks	oh wqr is deprecated too? what are the resultset-openness semantics of the new function?
15:54	mpenet	jimduey: Did you use TFn already? I am trying to create an heterogenous type "fn" for Sequential, failing so far
16:12	jimduey	Not yet. I'm off trying to figure co vs contra-variant.
16:12	jimduey	mpenet: ^
16:13	mpenet	jimduey: I think I may have found a bug, or that could just be me misusing it.
16:13	tyler__	how do i do something like '(+ 1 num) but actually interpolate the value of num into there?
16:16	hyPiRion	tyler__: `(+ 1 ~num)
16:16	hyPiRion	,(let [num 10] `(+ 1 ~num))
16:16	clojurebot	(clojure.core/+ 1 10)
16:16	tyler__	hyPiRion: thanks, still getting the macro-y stuff down
16:16	hyPiRion	Well, that will namespace the symbols too.
16:28	tyler__	is parallelism directly proportional to concurrency on the JVM since threads run on different cores?
16:34	ohpauleez	tyler__: Not necessarily
16:34	ohpauleez	bbloom: shall we do this again? ^^
16:34	bbloom	ohpauleez: heh. dammit. i guess i need to write that blog post
16:35	tyler__	bbloom: that sounds like a good blog post
16:35	ohpauleez	We just need to create a blog: "Things we've said in #clojure that need to be properly archived"
16:35	tyler__	speaking of which i just wrote: http://tyler808.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/its-time-for-a-new-unix/
16:35	ohpauleez	tyler__: Since it seems like you have a general idea, I'll give you the quick and dirty
16:36	bbloom	tyler__: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2013-02-26.html#16:17
16:36	tyler__	irclogasblog.tumblr.com
16:36	tyler__	heh
16:36	tyler__	that actually is a proper blog: "web log"
16:37	tyler__	literally
16:37	ohpauleez	concurrency is just handling/doing more than one thing at the same time, potentially swapping between things. Parallelism is actually doing multiple things at exactly the same time. In the most precise definition, it comes in two flavors: data parallelism and task parallelism.
16:38	hyPiRion	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2012-12-17.html#22:30 <- my proudest moment in this channel
16:38	ohpauleez	dp - you're doing a single task, in parallel across some chunk of data
16:38	ohpauleez	that's the most common
16:38	ohpauleez	tp - you're doing a bunch of different tasks in parallel, most likely on the same pool of data
16:38	llasram	hyPiRion: It was something to be proud of :-)
16:38	ohpauleez	then there are some analogies: dinner parties, schools and classrooms
16:39	hyPiRion	hehe
16:39	tyler__	i get the difference between the two, i was asking does the amount of parallelism go up as concurrency goes up
16:39	ohpauleez	on the JVM, you could do async concurrency, of you could use OS-level threads. Assuming you have an SMP kernel, those threads will hit different cores, but that's not always a promise
16:39	tyler__	or you you top out at a certain point
16:40	ohpauleez	oh no, the JCM will hit all cores if it's able to
16:40	ohpauleez	JVM
16:40	tyler__	like if i have 4 cores and 5 threads is the fifth thread considered "parallel"?
16:40	bbloom	dammit ohpauleez! stop bringing up data vs task parallelism! didn't we agree that this was orthogonal!?
16:40	ohpauleez	hahaha
16:40	antares_	tyler__: only if your CPU supports hyperthreading (core i7 all do, I think)
16:40	ohpauleez	I still feel it's important
16:41	ohpauleez	tyler__: core+virtual cores are a hard limit on true parallelism for anything
16:41	antares_	tyler__: if not, then no. But you are bound by hardware, not JVM limitations most of the time.
16:41	ohpauleez	so you can have as many concurrent things going as you like
16:41	ohpauleez	but you are capped on true parallel things
16:42	antares_	hey ohpauleez
16:42	ohpauleez	bbiab
16:43	tyler__	so why even discuss parallelism vs concurency if parallelism is just a function of concurrency + # of cores
16:44	ohpauleez	tyler__: Because we have distributed systems, GPUs, etc
16:44	antares_	tyler__: for example, because not all runtimes provide parallelism (CRuby, CPython do not) and not all of them do it equally well
16:44	tyler__	yeah but we all use java here amiright? ;)
16:44	antares_	GPUs are also a factor, too. Currently JVM won't use GPUs but there is a project that (hopefully) will make that possible in the next few years.
16:45	tyler__	antares_: ah, gpu is like a cpu on your graphics card right? im not much of a hardware guy
16:45	antares_	tyler__: more or less
16:46	bbloom	hyPiRion: nice.
16:47	gfredericks	how's the weather in portland?
16:47	tyler__	hyPiRion: wow thats amazing, i am not worthy
16:48	tyler__	gfredericks: its been nice, a little overcast today but its been sunny
16:48	tyler__	its finally getting warmer
16:48	hyPiRion	tyler__: It's not so difficult, really. It's just a lot of trial and error
16:48	hyPiRion	You should've seen my history with lazybot before I made it work
16:48	gfredericks	tyler__: man these forecasted temperatures are so high...
16:49	tyler__	actually next week looks kinda shite according to google now
16:50	gfredericks	shite == wet?
16:50	tyler__	and colder
16:50	gfredericks	it's 30 here
16:50	tyler__	last week we had the door open because it was so hot
16:51	gfredericks	well now I know not to pack my scarf
16:51	hyPiRion	tyler__: wow, you Americans and your weather
16:51	tyler__	hyPiRion: how is weather an american thing?
16:52	hyPiRion	tyler__: Mostly because the only time I hear about weather from another country, it's America :]
16:52	tyler__	correlation not causation ;)
16:53	hyPiRion	tyler__: Well, I meant it as in "Dang, you guys are lucky with the weather", not as in "talking about weather is an American thing"
16:53	gfredericks	hyPiRion: our lake just thawed
16:54	tyler__	hyPiRion: aaaah i understand
16:54	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Where are you from?
16:54	tyler__	hyPiRion: "american weather" is not a thing we have a huge landmass with hugely different climates
16:55	tyler__	last week i learned that all of the UK is about the size of Oregon heh
16:55	gfredericks	hyPiRion: Chicago
16:55	hyPiRion	tyler__: yeah, I know. I'm extrapolating based on one datapoint :p
16:56	clojure-new	We have weather in Russia too! Sometimes it's a pain.
16:56	clojure-new	-7C ATM.
16:56	gfredericks	clojure-new: is it a single kind of weather?
16:56	gfredericks	in all of russia?
16:57	bbloom	tyler__: i just checked wikipedia. oregon is slightly larger, heh
16:57	amalloy	gfredericks: in small countries like that, that's not uncommon
16:57	antares_	gfredericks: standardized by the government, too
16:57	gfredericks	haha
16:57	bbloom	UK: 243,610 km^2 vs OR: 255,026 km^2
16:58	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Wow, I just realized Chicago is on about the same latitude as Madrid
16:58	gfredericks	europe is falsly north
16:58	clojure-new	bbloom: RUSSIA: 17,075,400 km2 vs UK: 243,610 km^2 vs OR: 255,026 km^2
16:59	clojure-new	17,075,400 km2 of weather.
16:59	tyler__	russia is a country though, not a provence/state
16:59	gfredericks	all of it the same
16:59	gfredericks	and all of it in metric
16:59	tyler__	is the US the last place to refuse to use metric?
17:00	antares_	tyler__: not at all. it is accompanied by burma, see.
17:00	gfredericks	a coalition of the willing
17:01	gfredericks	man I'm already old enough to be muttering political innuendo that the youth will not understand
17:02	amalloy	tyler__: there are like three other countries, with a combined GDP of like $10/year
17:02	tyler__	heh
17:02	amalloy	as i recall
17:03	drewc	and of course, the speed is measured in knots
17:04	hyPiRion	Oh, I like that
17:04	hyPiRion	"three clicks from here"
17:04	gfredericks	man I have no idea how we measure the speed of my apartment
17:04	drewc	gfredericks: I think they have already been invented, they are called 'miles'
17:04	gfredericks	will have to ask the landlord
17:05	technomancy	gfredericks: it's called a flat
17:05	gfredericks	technomancy: I guess that helps it be more aerodynamic?
17:05	technomancy	now you're catching on
17:05	drewc	(or often "land mile" or even "statute mile")
17:05	tyler__	gfredericks: around 1125kph
17:05	tyler__	gfredericks: http://geography.about.com/library/faq/blqzearthspin.htm
17:05	tyler__	heh
17:05	clojurebot	No entiendo
17:06	Frozenlock	technomancy: as a mechanical engineer, I want to express how much I hate you for not using metric.
17:06	gfredericks	I wonder if velocity is a torsor
17:06	arrdem	(inc Frozenlock)
17:06	lazybot	⇒ 2
17:06	hyPiRion	Frozenlock: You read technomancy wrong :)
17:06	technomancy	Frozenlock: what? I use metric
17:06	hyPiRion	"refuses to refuse to use metric" -> metric
17:06	Frozenlock	Oh
17:06	Frozenlock	damn
17:06	gfredericks	hyPiRion: well that's a bit of a stretch
17:06	hyPiRion	gfredericks: true
17:06	gfredericks	hyPiRion: he might just be wishy washy
17:06	Frozenlock	Double negative got me -_-
17:07	technomancy	only the language nerds are allowed to hate me (for the double negative)
17:07	gfredericks	technomancy: only fake language nerds would complain about a double negative
17:07	bbloom	technomancy: as an english major (not really) i what to express how much i hate you for using a double negative
17:07	tyler__	i don't know nothing
17:07	bbloom	damn, typed that too slow to make the joke in time
17:07	bbloom	slowly
17:07	gfredericks	I think I remember seeing a quadruple negative in the wild once
17:07	Frozenlock	bbloom: still found it funny :)
17:07	technomancy	http://wondermark.com/434/
17:08	tyler__	i luled
17:11	arrdem	gfredericks: i c u trollin
17:11	Frozenlock	While we are on the news, I read somewhere that EA's lastest game was awesome, and the always-online requirement wasn't a problem, at all.
17:12	tyler__	so i decided to take a peek at core.logic and now my brain is melting...
17:12	tyler__	Frozenlock: are you being facetious?
17:13	arrdem	,(str "(" (rand-nth ["inc" "dec"]) " Frozenlock)")
17:13	clojurebot	"(inc Frozenlock)"
17:13	arrdem	,(print ",(" (rand-nth ["inc" "dec"]) " Frozenlock)")
17:13	clojurebot	,( dec Frozenlock)
17:13	AimHere	tyler__, no. He was just reading a report of an EA press release
17:13	arrdem	bother
17:14	arrdem	,(print (str ",(" (rand-nth ["inc" "dec"]) " Frozenlock)"))
17:14	clojurebot	,(dec Frozenlock)
17:14	Frozenlock	You mean the 'straight answers from Lucy' one?
17:14	AimHere	&(print (str ",(" (rand-nth ["inc" "dec"]) " Frozenlock)"))
17:14	lazybot	⇒ ,(dec Frozenlock)nil
17:14	AimHere	,(print (str "&(" (rand-nth ["inc" "dec"]) " Frozenlock)"))
17:14	clojurebot	&(dec Frozenlock)
17:15	arrdem	so do we have to quine thi?
17:15	arrdem	*this
17:15	arrdem	clojurebot -> lazybot -> clojurebot?
17:15	AimHere	Lazybot prefixing it's output with the arrow makes me glum
17:16	AimHere	But it's probably for the best, all things considered
17:19	tyler__	woah just found: https://github.com/jonase/kibit/
17:19	tyler__	that looks awesome
17:20	hyPiRion	arrdem: that's impossible by now. Clojurebot ignores lazybot now
17:20	hyPiRion	I think
17:20	hyPiRion	$timer 0:0:1 ,(println "foo")
17:20	lazybot	Timer added.
17:20	lazybot	,(println "foo")
17:20	clojurebot	foo\n
17:21	tyler__	or not
17:21	hyPiRion	,(print "&(println "foo")")
17:21	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
17:21	hyPiRion	,(print "&(println \"foo\")")
17:21	clojurebot	&(println "foo")
17:21	hyPiRion	the other way around it was
17:21	arrdem	Q_Q
17:24	Frozenlock	Anyone here using compojure could confirm if googlebot can access their site?
17:24	MikeSeth	if I do (defrecord Character ...) Clojure complains about java.lang.Character already defined. Is this because java.lang classes are imported into every namespace?
17:25	arrdem	Frozenlock: confirmed
17:26	Frozenlock	Grrr Googlebot, why u fail on me...
17:29	antares_	MikeSeth: most likely
17:30	tomoj	(ns-unmap ns 'Character)
17:30	tomoj	I can't remember why I wanted :import-exclude
17:30	tomoj	didn't think of that workaround till after I forgot :(
17:31	MikeSeth	tomoj: is this a "normal" thing to do?
17:31	tomoj	I guess (:import-java :exclude [...])
17:31	tomoj	(that's hypothetical)
17:31	tomoj	no, it's not normal
17:31	MikeSeth	hmmm
17:32	tomoj	it's rare enough for people to alter their ns map in any other way besides ns and def
17:32	tomoj	but if you really want it to be called Character, doing that at the beginning of your ns top-level wouldn't cause much real trouble afaik
17:33	tomoj	hmm
17:33	tomoj	though that will unmap the record every time after
18:01	hiredman	/win 15
18:04	bbloom	lynaghk: i think you're gonna like what i'm cooking up in the rewrite department :-)
18:11	lynaghk	bbloom: I'd love to see it over a beer
18:11	lynaghk	bbloom: and then not over a beer, to make sure I can understand =P
18:12	bbloom	lynaghk: i'm basically porting https://code.google.com/p/kiama/wiki/Rewriting to clojure, but with a focus on operating on trees of maps
18:12	bbloom	lynaghk: it's basically a combinator library for rewriting strategies
18:35	bbloom	dnolen: i too keep finding myself wanting reduce-until
18:35	ambrosebs	mpenet: need help with TFn?
18:36	wmax	how do i retrieve all the attributes in datomic?
18:36	bbloom	dnolen: before, i've wanted left-fold-until, but now i have a case where i want fold-with-an-abort-condition, ie un-ordered
18:36	jjttjj	anyone ever use fleet for templating? are there any example apps out there?
18:39	ohpauleez	bbloom: You know you can do that right now, right?
18:39	ohpauleez	reduce supports a short circuit
18:39	bbloom	ohpauleez: how?
18:39	hiredman	,(doc reduced)
18:39	clojurebot	"([x]); Wraps x in a way such that a reduce will terminate with the value x"
18:39	bbloom	bwha?
18:39	bbloom	1.5?
18:39	ohpauleez	yeah
18:40	bbloom	glorious.
18:40	ohpauleez	let me dig up the example I just saw
18:42	mpenet	ambrosebs: I think I understand TFn, but this was not really the solution to my problem (still good to have learned about it). I sent you a privmsg earlier with a gist
18:43	mpenet	ambrosebs: either I misunderstand Seq* or there is a bug somewhere, more likely the former
18:44	bbloom	ohpauleez: oh. this is amazing.
18:45	ohpauleez	bbloom: It's reduce right? I was trying to dig up the code I had
18:47	bbloom	,(reduce (fn [acc x] (let [x' (* x x)] (if (> x' 10) (reduced x') x'))) (range))
18:47	clojurebot	16
18:47	bbloom	ohpauleez: there's an example
18:47	ohpauleez	Ahhh there we go!
18:47	bbloom	ohpauleez: sadly, it doesn't seem to work with `reductions :-(
18:48	ohpauleez	reduced! right
18:48	ohpauleez	it is indeed a pity
18:48	bbloom	ohpauleez: i am sooo submitting a patch to reductions....
18:48	tomoj	we still need a reductions reducer too
18:49	ohpauleez	tomoj: What would that even look like?!
18:49	ohpauleez	haha
18:49	bbloom	well, if the reducers produces a linear reduction, it's easy, but otherwise, it could return a tree
18:50	ohpauleez	right
18:50	ohpauleez	I was just thinking, well… you could write it in terms of the current reduce and build a seq
18:50	tomoj	no
18:50	tomoj	no seqs :)
18:51	tomoj	I dunno what you mean probably
18:52	tomoj	what would return a tree?
18:52	ohpauleez	reductions in reducers, that runs non-linearly
18:52	ohpauleez	because order isn't preserved
18:52	Frozenlock	Ok googlebot is definitely trolling me. Every proxies I tried can see the site, in addition to web-sniffer.net, but not googlebot -_-
18:52	ohpauleez	which you typically want in reductions
18:53	tomoj	what reducer doesn't preserve order?
18:54	tomoj	to me that is pretty much the essence of a reducer, an order
18:54	ohpauleez	tomoj: how would you visual the results of reduction where the first three elements were reduced and the last two were, but no others
18:54	ohpauleez	visualize**
18:55	ohpauleez	… I suppose I'm thinking of fold
18:55	tomoj	ah, right, fold reductions is weirder
18:55	tomoj	folds?
18:56	tomoj	presumably you pass a combinef and reducef and you get the ordered results from the combinef as a reducer?
18:57	tomoj	can't we move the short-circuiting code into Reduced?
18:58	tomoj	instead of writing it into every reducer
18:59	tomoj	perhaps not without CPS'd reducers?
19:07	wmax	how do i get the namespace of a namespace qualified keyword
19:09	bbloom	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1185 boom.
19:09	devn	bam
19:10	technomancy	arg; I hate it when I realize two seconds too late that I could have used paredit-convolute-sexp
19:10	devn	what does that do?
19:11	technomancy	words cannot describe it
19:11	devn	haha
19:11	devn	oh i see
19:12	devn	that's uh, very specific
19:12	wmax	why don't anyone help me
19:12	wmax	&(namespace :foo/bar)
19:12	lazybot	⇒ "foo"
19:14	devn	wmax: isn't that what you want?
19:15	tomoj	it's very common to have seq forms where some initial subseq is distinguished and provides context for the remaining subforms
19:15	wmax	that is exactly what i want
19:15	tomoj	paredit-convolute-sexp just reorders those kinds of operators
19:15	devn	wmax: :)
19:15	devn	&clojure-version
19:15	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
19:16	Frozenlock	arrdem: May I ask if you are using some middleware? force-ssl, gzip, etc..?
19:17	arrdem	Frozenlock: it
19:17	arrdem	's been a long time and that blog's codebase is still on noir.. lemme look tho
19:18	arrdem	Frozenlock: yeah stock noir opaque as always
19:21	bbloom	ohpauleez: thanks much for letting me know about `reduced... now i wonder what else i'm missing in 1.5
19:22	ohpauleez	bbloom: totally welcome man
19:23	Frozenlock	arrdem: I just moved away from noir, thinking it might be what caused googlebot to choke :/
19:24	gfredericks	tomoj: what's a seq form?
19:24	arrdem	Frozenlock: heh yeah I have a branch that's noir-free but it's stuck in me being too lazy to fix all the mistakes I made with my first Clojure project XP
19:24	tomoj	a form that is a seq
19:24	tomoj	probably a list
19:24	gfredericks	like (if foo bar baz)?
19:24	tomoj	yeah
19:26	bbloom	looking at the impl of clojure.lang.Reduced, it occurs to me that IDeref is like an abstract pointer on steroids
19:27	tomoj	steroids?
19:27	bbloom	i wish that there was a way to opt-in to auto-deref like vars, but still allow do-not-deref via something like #'
19:27	bbloom	but i'm not gonna think about that too much :-P
19:29	tomoj	auto-deref on invocation? or something crazier?
19:29	gfredericks	auto-deref like vars
19:29	bbloom	tomoj: on invocation is easy: implement IFn
19:29	gfredericks	you mention them and they get deref'd
19:30	tomoj	yeah, so what are you thinking? (foo bar baz) auto-derefs bar?
19:30	bbloom	yeah what gfredericks says, but it requires static knowledge
19:30	tomoj	oh, right
19:30	bbloom	the compiler knows that a name refers to a var. so for example of you refer to `inc it emits clojure.core.inc.deref()
19:30	tomoj	IFn is the "oh, actually do deref" case for vars
19:30	bbloom	but if you #'inc, then you get clojure.core.inc without the deref()
19:31	gfredericks	tomoj: wat?
19:31	bbloom	but i wish there was like a metadata hint you could put on symbols: (assert (= 5 (let [x ^:deref (delay 5)] x)))
19:31	tomoj	gfredericks: nevermind, I was confused
19:31	bbloom	or maybe ^:deref x
19:31	bbloom	and then you could get at the delay by writing: #'x
19:32	gfredericks	bbloom: for local stuff symbol macros would solve it, right?
19:32	bbloom	gfredericks: hm, i guess it would
19:32	dnolen	bbloom: you already in portland?
19:33	bbloom	dnolen: no, i get in around 8pm pacific tomorrow
19:33	bbloom	how far is the airport from the hotel / arcade? I'll head right over there
19:33	dnolen	bbloom: cool, I get there around 7:30
19:34	bbloom	gfredericks: the reason this thought about requesting auto-deref occurs to me is b/c it would enable some lazy evaluation DSLs :-)(
19:35	gfredericks	bbloom: I think I've thought of that sort of thing as well. would definitely make code more potentially confusing though
19:35	bbloom	but i guess it can be done w/ symbol macrolets pretty straightforwardly.... so maybe ill look into that if i ever need to do something extra lazy
19:37	OneFourSeven	Do I have to worry about sql injections if I use sqlkorma?
19:40	lynaghk	bbloom: you can take the max from the airport pretty much directly to the arcade downtown---it'll be about a 40 minute ride or so.
19:40	lynaghk	(the max = light rail)
19:43	tomoj	bbloom: how about deref destructuring instead
19:43	tomoj	(let [xd (delay 5) @x xd] ..)
19:43	tomoj	hmm no room for :as
19:46	tomoj	(let [(:as @x xd) (delay 5)]) ? :(
19:47	tomoj	er, no..
19:59	amalloy	tomoj: what about (let [^:delay x (some computation)] (if whatever (inc x) 0))? i have that written somewhere
20:00	tomoj	I think I prefer [@x (some computation)]
20:00	tomoj	but either way, no :as
20:02	tomoj	what would (if-let [^:delay x y]) mean?
20:03	hyPiRion	tomoj: what are you attempting?
20:03	hyPiRion	Seems like you're trying to reinvent dataflow variables.
20:03	tomoj	nothing very closely related to this discussion
20:04	tomoj	but yes, I am trying to reinvent dataflow variables :)
20:06	wmax	how do i html escape url strings?
20:21	tomoj	are there reducers which can't be CPS'd?
20:22	tomoj	assume the continuation will only be called once
20:22	tomoj	(or zero times)
21:26	xeqi	non-clojure, but any recommendations on places to get an ssl cert?
21:34	callahad	xeqi: Check with your registrar? Lots provide them free with registrations (or at least, gandi.net does…)
21:34	bbloom	i have forgotten how anyone gets anything done in the presence of operator overloading....
21:35	bbloom	this scala library defines <+ and <* to mean subtly different things
21:35	bbloom	i have had to look up their meaning to differentiate them EVERY SINGLE TIME I ENCOUNTER THEM. which has been dozens of times in the past hour. i simply can not remember them b/c they have no pronounceable name or provide any hint to their meaning
21:38	tomoj	"+" and "*" had better be a hint
21:38	bbloom	<+ means "composition via deterministic choice" and <* means "unconditional linear composition"
21:39	bbloom	tomoj: if you have a nemonic, i'm all ears
21:39	hiredman	porting python code that mixes math and string concatenation, :/
21:39	egghead	freakin' scala
21:39	egghead	hi we always eval left to right except when the operator starts with two colons
21:39	egghead	don't ask why
21:40	egghead	why does odersky hate programmers
21:40	bbloom	heh
21:40	tomoj	bbloom: + means "or", * means "and", dunno what those descriptions mean but it looks like it lines up OK
21:41	bbloom	<+ is like clojure.core/cond, <* is like clojure.core/comp
21:41	bbloom	i'm calling them choice and pipe
21:42	egghead	scala, where fn references aren't real references unless you partially apply them to some magical thing named _
21:42	bbloom	ALL HAIL THE GREAT _
21:44	SegFaultAX	egghead: Actually, you only need one colon to change the associativity.
21:44	egghead	oh? didn't know that
21:45	egghead	i thought for instance a :: b was a method of a but a ::: b was a method of b
21:45	SegFaultAX	egghead: The folding operators are a good example
21:45	john2x	is there a utility method to create ring requests? can't seem to find it in ring's api page.
21:45	egghead	john2x: ring mock is nice
21:46	bbloom	at least with mathematica you can FullForm[Hold[...]] to debug associativity
21:46	bbloom	with haskell & scala, you just need to wait for the compiler to give you a type error, or wait until you have a bug in production
21:47	john2x	egghead: cool thanks
21:47	SegFaultAX	bbloom: The #1 #2 and #3 things I dislike about Scala are how fricken complicated the syntax is.
21:47	SegFaultAX	bbloom: I have a really hard time getting used to it.
21:48	egghead	SegFaultAX: ya scala seems very context sensitive
21:48	egghead	stuff like if you call a method with or without parens, might work in some places but not others
21:49	bbloom	i have nothing fundamentally against infix operators, it's just that they add significant notation complexity which is extremely unwelcome while you are learning concepts. all operators should be required to map 1-to-1 with a named prefix operator/function/macro/whatever & then i should be able to OPT IN to operators as i desire the notation to tackle bigger and bigger problems with the semantics i need
21:49	SegFaultAX	egghead: Eh, that's something else. That's really more a matter of "does this class I'm working with observe the uniform access principle"
21:49	bbloom	mathematica gets that half right: you need to use FullForm to opt OUT
21:49	SegFaultAX	egghead: Most do, some don't.
21:49	egghead	uniform access principle, ya
21:50	egghead	I don't even want to even know that that is a thing but when writing scala you have to
21:50	egghead	SegFaultAX: if that's not the syntax would you say it's the semantics?
21:50	SegFaultAX	egghead: Well, omitting the parens is a nice to have when accessing properties. It is by no means a requirement, though generally idiomatic.
21:50	xeqi	john2x: ring-mock is the base one. If you also need a cookie jar you could look at my peridot or kerodon libraries
21:51	SegFaultAX	egghead: The point is you shouldn't care if the thing you're accessing is a property or a field.
21:51	egghead	SegFaultAX: but having it not be really uniform means you do have to care
21:52	SegFaultAX	egghead: Don't write shitty classes that don't follow the convention, then. ;)
21:52	egghead	I try not to write scala if I can help it, but I inherited some scala last month from another team :(
21:52	egghead	:p
21:53	bbloom	the uniform access principle is not-mega-objectionable for reads, but holy crap is it a bad idea for writes via methods named foo_=
21:53	bbloom	consider a calls representing a rectangle, if you try to do rect.right = 500
21:53	bbloom	what happens?
21:54	bbloom	does it move the rectangle or resize it?
21:54	SegFaultAX	bbloom: I /really/ hate how overloaded the character _ is in Scala.
21:54	bbloom	even if you agree on it moving or resizing, then suddenly the order of updates matter! if you change left and right or right and width or whatever
21:54	bbloom	even if you have an immutible rectangle and left_= returns a new rectangle, these problems exist
21:55	bbloom	in fact, i'd argue that property setters is one of the dumbest ideas... ever.
21:55	SegFaultAX	bbloom: I concur. I don't know why you'd ever want a setter on a computed value.
21:56	bbloom	SegFaultAX: the only time it makes any sense is when you have a trivial converter, like if you wanted to data bind a number to a text box and needed Integer/parse with white space trimming
21:56	bbloom	but even then, you're gonna likely want to override that policy, so who says what gets to be theInteger_=
21:56	bbloom	ugh. setters. dumb idea
21:58	tomoj	interesting
21:58	ivaraasen	setters. it's what plants crave.
21:59	tomoj	you'd need a function with domain and range subsets of XxYxWxH
21:59	tomoj	er
21:59	tomoj	the products of subsets of {X,Y,W,H} I mean
22:00	tomoj	like your multidirectional dataflow graph functions
22:00	bbloom	tomoj: heh, rectangle representation is a soap box i can stand on for days
22:00	bbloom	rectangles expose so many problems with object oriented programming, it's not even funny :-P
22:01	ivaraasen	bbloom: taking an OOP course at the moment. so much silly stuff
22:01	bbloom	rectangles fundamentally have 4 fields. but what are they? left/right/top/bottom? x/y/w/h ? center-x/y, half-w/h ?
22:01	bbloom	what about representations as two points? top-left and bottom-right?
22:02	bbloom	or a center and two half widths in a size vector?
22:02	bbloom	but let's dumb the problem down: circles! they only have a position and a radius
22:02	bbloom	still, point or pair of ints?
22:03	bbloom	let's dumb it down! a Range of integers: minimum and maximum!
22:03	bbloom	oh wait, is it [min,max) or [min,max]
22:03	bbloom	this shit is hard.
22:03	bbloom	or is it min & length ?
22:03	bbloom	add some getters and setters, paper over the problem
22:03	bbloom	and suddenly range.length = 5 is a mega confusing arbitrary decision that yields signficant order of statements bugs
22:05	lynaghk	bbloom: have you seen a nice way to handle that with records in Clojure?
22:05	ivaraasen	the correct implementation of a triangle is a class inheriting from Shape, which wraps CartesianSpace<Point>, which in turn is a superior ArrayList, because I wrote it. sigh.
22:06	lynaghk	bbloom: i.e., sometimes it's natural to want to (assoc my-rect :top 1 :left 2 :bottom 5 :right 11), and other times I want to refer to width and height
22:06	bbloom	lynaghk: not really.... afterall, deftype and defrecord are slighly-less-featureful (in a good way) OOP
22:06	lynaghk	bbloom: right, so basically you need to pick one canonical basis and then use functions to get/set the others?
22:06	bbloom	this is something i've thought a bit about tho. i think that there is some sort of algebra of nouns or something yet to be discovered
22:06	tomoj	isomorphisms are lenses
22:06	lynaghk	bbloom: or go to town with constraints and macro-generated code for an IAssociative implementation
22:07	bbloom	lynaghk: but then you have the setter problem
22:07	lynaghk	bbloom, tomoj: yeah. right. are you aware of any lense implementations for Clojure records
22:07	lynaghk	(Not that I'm sure it's a good idea whatsoever)
22:07	bbloom	i'm anti lenses :-P
22:07	lynaghk	bbloom: that's why I'm thinking you should have to specify everything with constraints
22:08	lynaghk	I mean, core.logic is just SITTING THERE.
22:08	tomoj	no, I've been working on it slowly
22:08	bbloom	i spent some time studying them & decided that symbolic algebra is fundamentally superior
22:08	bbloom	constraints < algebra
22:08	tomoj	symbolic algebra?
22:08	lynaghk	bbloom: I don't know enough about your termonology to understand; do you have some references?
22:09	bbloom	lynaghk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_algebra_system
22:10	tomoj	you'd write an equation for the isomorphism between x,y,w,h and (say) sw,ne ?
22:10	bbloom	the problem is that anyone who ever tries lenses or constraints or anything like that, tends to write a paper with some linear algebra & fundamentally ignores business logic domains
22:11	bbloom	tomoj: yeah, i think you could define a rectangle in terms of some algebraic relations & then the compiler could find a spanning tree of terms. every spanning tree is one possible representation
22:11	bbloom	however, i can only assume this is undecideable lol
22:12	ohpauleez	lynaghk: I'm going to jump in here
22:12	ohpauleez	I have record invariants working
22:13	lynaghk	ohpauleez: gist?
22:13	ohpauleez	a semi-working generator from Alloy, and an implementation of basic constraints from core.contracts
22:13	lynaghk	ohpauleez: that's my mantra for the over-educated inhabitants of #clojure---gists or it's not a real idea =P
22:14	lynaghk	ohpauleez: this is what you'll be talking about at Clojure/West, yeah?
22:14	ohpauleez	in my branch of core.contracts, I have a protocol with (constrain ...)
22:14	ohpauleez	lynaghk: Yeah, this is my talk on Monday
22:15	ohpauleez	my examples are all about functions, because I think more people can relate to it. But the underlying pieces also work with Records. I haven't fully solidified the API wrt records
22:15	ohpauleez	so it's subject to change
22:16	lynaghk	cool, I didn't know you had features for inline usage---I thought it was all out-of-band verification and maybe some runtime assertions
22:16	ohpauleez	it has open handlers, that act as decorators
22:17	lynaghk	ohpauleez: yeah, when I last thought about this kind of thing I wasn't sure what I wanted the API to look like---ideally for some class of relationships everything could be patched into the standard IAssoc and ILookup implementations and Just Work (tm)
22:17	ohpauleez	so it'll generate you n-versions of the thing you're spec'ing
22:17	ohpauleez	I did not take that approach
22:17	ohpauleez	and I'm with bbloom
22:17	ohpauleez	there's more power in an algebra and discrete math
22:18	bbloom	ohpauleez: i want to express my program assertions in first order logic :-P
22:18	lynaghk	ohpauleez: see my comment re: gists.
22:18	ohpauleez	lynaghk: see my response: Monday
22:18	ohpauleez	:)
22:18	lynaghk	ohpauleez: =)
22:18	bbloom	that reminds me... i need to write a README before I open source some stuff .... heh
22:19	bbloom	shrug sounds like a good use of my time on the flight
22:19	ohpauleez	bbloom: flying from?
22:19	bbloom	JFK
22:19	ohpauleez	ahh you're already in NYC
22:20	bbloom	yeah, since end of january
22:23	john2x	how do I write tests for my handlers that go through the routes? (instead of just passing mock requests directly to the handlers)
22:24	xeqi	john2x: pass the mock requests directly to the route functions
22:26	john2x	xeqi, hmm, by route functions, you mean those middleware wrappers?
22:29	xeqi	john2x: I was assuming you were using (defroutes some-routes ...). Then you could do (some-routes mock-request)
22:29	xeqi	if you are wrapping middleware around them then just use the handler that returns
22:30	Raynes	xeqi: You've been using laser, right?
22:30	xeqi	Raynes: I'm using it to build my screencast site
22:31	Raynes	xeqi: Good experience so far?
22:32	lynaghk	xeqi: you're building a screencast site too?
22:33	xeqi	lynaghk: yes, and eric normand did the kickstarter
22:34	xeqi	lynaghk: are you making one?
22:34	xeqi	* not that mine and his project are related, just another person I know making screencasts
22:34	lynaghk	xeqi: yeah, though not with Clojure as a topic right now
22:34	xeqi	Raynes: its been pretty good
22:35	Raynes	xeqi: Pretty good sounds horrible.
22:35	xeqi	there was some confusion about fragment vs parse-fragment, and which one worked with content, and which with remove
22:35	lynaghk	xeqi: but I'm helping a friend do one for Photoshop (retouching in a production environment) and using the same tech stack for a "personal devops" site
22:35	Raynes	xeqi: Well, parse-fragment and fragment do completely different things.
22:35	Raynes	parse-fragment just parses html into something you can pass to fragment and do work on.'
22:36	xeqi	lynaghk: I put up a sample video at http://www.clojurewebdevelopment.com/videos/friend-interactive-form to gauge interest, and based on it and in person conversations it seems like there is a small, but willing to pay market for clojure videos
22:36	Raynes	xeqi: Come to LA in April. I'm gonna give a talk at the LA Clojure meetup about it.
22:36	Raynes	;)
22:36	xeqi	Raynes: hmm, maybe I meant nodes
22:36	lynaghk	xeqi: yeah, I'm not surprised. I might dip into it later this year; Eric Normand's kickstarter certainly validates that
22:36	Raynes	nodes is basically parse-fragment.
22:37	Raynes	It just also normalizes things. If you give it a node, it gives you back something you can pass to fragment.
22:37	Raynes	Bleh. My docs probably suck.
22:37	john2x	xeqi: ah got it. this is cool
22:37	Raynes	Feel free to suggest improvements. You have the benefit of being a guy who didn't write laer.
22:37	alandipert	i would pay for a service that forced others to watch clj videos
22:37	xeqi	Raynes: css selectors :p
22:37	technomancy	alandipert: get y combinator on the phone; I smell a market
22:37	lynaghk	alandipert: your best bet is to pay off a flight crew
22:37	Raynes	alandipert: Pretty sure that's called terrorism.
22:37	Raynes	:p
22:38	Raynes	xeqi: I meant doc improvements. :p
22:38	technomancy	Raynes: or advertising. fine line.
22:38	alandipert	ingenius ideas, all of them
22:38	egghead	nice Raynes -- will catch that laser talk :)
22:38	Raynes	But sure, css selectors could be done.
22:38	lynaghk	alandipert: when are you getting into town?
22:38	Raynes	egghead: Oh right, you're in LA aren't you?
22:38	alandipert	lynaghk, tomorrow at 2pm
22:38	egghead	mhm
22:38	egghead	visiting pdx this week but la regularly
22:38	Raynes	egghead: It's actually May that I'm talking. May 5th I think, but I might be wrong. Some day in May.
22:39	lynaghk	alandipert: okay, cool. I think I'm just going to head over to downtown and start drinking coffee with clojure friends nonstop starting tomorrow at 10am.
22:40	lynaghk	(hear that Clojure friends!?! Find me tomorrow for free coffee and tours of hipsters in their natural habitat)
22:40	lynaghk	technomancy: Public Domain is the only coffee shop I've ever been to that has an "espresso happy hour"
22:41	Raynes	egghead: Okay, May 2nd. This time for sure (I looked at the email).
22:41	Raynes	If you do come, make sure you introduce yourself to me.
22:41	egghead	cheers Raynes -- at the clj meetup?
22:41	lynaghk	technomancy: just don't order an espresso to go, or they'll get pissy at you.
22:41	dcolish	Public domain is pretty good, you should also check out Spella
22:41	Raynes	Just walk up and say "Yo, I'm Mr. Egghead."
22:41	egghead	haha lynaghk I might take you up on that :)
22:42	alandipert	lynaghk: yes excellent, i look forward to caffeinating with you
22:42	bbloom	lynaghk: i get in at 830 or so. please bring my free expresso to the arcade party, thank you :-)
22:42	lynaghk	bbloom: you forefeited it when you said, "expresso"
22:43	egghead	I've been wine tasting today in mcminnville
22:43	bbloom	lynaghk: i'd say that i'm surprised i made that typo, but i'm not really
22:43	egghead	everyone is so nice over here, i'm used to la where everyone hates everyone
22:43	egghead	expresso b/c it makes you go fast vrooom
22:44	lynaghk	egghead: yeah, that weirded me out when I moved here from North Carolina---I distinctly remember wondering why all the cars were stopping and realized it was because I was on the sidewalk looking across the road.
22:44	technomancy	lynaghk: I would never order espresso to go
22:44	technomancy	you have to give it your full attention immediately
22:45	lynaghk	technomancy: yeah, nor would I. Just saying, I've heard you'll get a lot of lip and/or be refused service there if you do that
22:45	technomancy	haha
22:45	technomancy	dcolish: well, proximity to the hotel is another key factor
22:45	lynaghk	technomancy: Coava Coffee on the east side (directly off the Hawthorne Bridge, basically) is also very good.
22:45	technomancy	I'm more interested in the pour overs anyway
22:46	technomancy	lynaghk: I think there's a place up here that serves their beans
22:46	egghead	I like my espresso burnt and bitter
22:46	egghead	generally I wait around 5 mins after they are pulled to drink them to make sure they don't taste right
22:47	lynaghk	egghead: it's fun to play pretentious now and again, but I wholeheartedly agree that the best way to have anything is to just have it the way you like it
22:47	lynaghk	egghead: which is why I plan on continuing to drink only sub-$10 bottles of wine, preferably in parks.
22:48	alandipert	and why i choose to drink only microwaved day-old mcdonalds coffee that i find on my desk
22:48	lynaghk	see, what's nice about Clojurians is just how damn pragmatic we are =P
22:48	bbloom	i'll be honest: i'm quite enjoying the bland black coffee that every corner deli has in NYC - it's just so much faster than waiting for someone with some skill to prepare your beverage :-P
22:49	bbloom	it means that when somebody drags my ass down to tribeca or some other rich person neighborhood, i can really enjoy a good coffee as a novelty of sorts
22:49	egghead	why bother drinking it when you can take it via drip
22:49	bbloom	egghead: where do i sign up?
22:49	dcolish	technomancy: Spella is a 1.5 blocks from Public Domain
22:49	dcolish	i highly recommend getting both
22:49	egghead	:p
22:49	dcolish	stumptown is ok
22:50	dcolish	barista is good if you get heart or verve beans
22:50	xeqi	Raynes: I was surprised by the difference in https://www.refheap.com/paste/12647
22:50	dcolish	we take coffee a little too serious in pdx
22:50	xeqi	also that error message sucks
22:50	xeqi	though we had this discussion at one point and I got something working well enough
22:50	xeqi	besides that its been good
22:52	Raynes	xeqi: You shouldn't be calling fragment on either of those things.
22:53	Raynes	xeqi: Also, in the latest versions you can actually now just throw strings in there unescaped. You just have to call me.raynes.laser/unescaped on them.
22:53	xeqi	Raynes: its a simplified example, imagine replacements happening inside (laser/fragment ...)
22:53	Raynes	Gotcha.
22:54	Raynes	Yeah, I should probably look into why that doesn't work. It doesn't look dumb at first glance.
22:54	Raynes	Not that anything you'd ever do would be dumb.
22:54	Raynes	<3
22:54	Raynes	xeqi: Is this happening with the latest laser?
22:54	xeqi	use case: I'm processing a page and turning it into a fragment and send it in a ring response, and then have a middleware do the laser/document with the layout
22:55	xeqi	[me.raynes/laser "0.1.21"]
22:55	xeqi	so no
22:55	xeqi	or.. untested
22:55	Raynes	Yeah, there were lots of changes in content over the last 0.x.x releases. And bugs.
22:56	Raynes	Make sure you update. The latest version is stable and not going to change from underneath you.
22:56	xeqi	$latest me.raynes/laser
22:56	Raynes	$latest me.raynes/laser
22:56	lazybot	[me.raynes/laser "1.1.1"] -- https://clojars.org/me.raynes/laser
22:56	lazybot	[me.raynes/laser "1.1.1"] -- https://clojars.org/me.raynes/laser
22:56	Raynes	!!
22:56	Raynes	o/
22:56	hyPiRion	zing
22:57	Raynes	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23745600/Screenshots/aOry.png Immortalized.
22:58	technomancy	dcolish: you're talking to someone from seattle =D
22:58	technomancy	but thanks; hope to try them both
22:58	Raynes	technomancy: You should come visit me. <3
22:58	Raynes	We can have dinner and you can push lein issues at me.
22:59	dcolish	technomancy: well a big NW highfive
23:01	xeqi	john2x: how is the ring testing going? any problems?
23:18	xeqi	Raynes: ahh, html-content disappeared
23:26	xeqi	but looks like the (l/content (l/nodes ...)) works
23:27	xeqi	Raynes: looks like the example paste works fine in 1.1.1, so no more confusion for me
23:38	Raynes	xeqi: Yes, content serves both purposes now.
23:43	Rich_Morin	FYI - Light Rail notes for Portland - http://pastie.org/6578091
23:44	technomancy	wow, pastie is still around
23:45	technomancy	I remember being in the channel when that was created in 06
23:45	Rich_Morin	yep, and accepting donations for Josh's brother Nate.
23:47	jeremyheiler	Rich_Morin: Thanks!