#clojure – 2013-02-26

2013-02-26

00:00	frozenlock	I.e. I want to ship a uberjar that might create its own plugins folder, not an entire m2 path.
00:01	frozenlock	But again I know nothing of the java stuff, it might be impossible.
00:10	frozenlock	Oh I like that https://github.com/cemerick/pomegranate/blob/master/src/main/clojure/cemerick/pomegranate.clj#L42
00:14	frozenlock	I have no idea of the implementation details, but... Main application A. Plugin B is jared with its own depencies, but without those already in application A. Then plugin B is loaded using add-classpath. Could it possibly work, or will I rip the space-time continuum?
02:32	dbushenko	hi all!
02:33	dbushenko	is there a way to reset all the memoized functions?
02:33	dbushenko	just to free some memory?
02:33	dbushenko	probably I can reset the @mem, but may be there is other way?
02:35	alandipert	dbushenko: not that i know of but maybe https://github.com/clojure/core.cache would interest you?
02:35	dbushenko	alandipert, thanks, I'll look into it
02:41	dbushenko	alandipert, yes, you are right, this is more beautiful way to implement a cache. My solution is just a hack
02:51	amalloy	Frozenlock: you might like https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/map.clj#L5, which is a version of your mapify that is more flexible and generates nicer code as well
03:06	HolyJak	Hi, could anybody be so kind and tell me why, in Ring, the application method passed to run-jetty cannot be modified at runtime? Please see https://www.refheap.com/paste/11819 - after starting jetty, no changes in app-immutable (and re-loading the file in REPL) have any effect while changing external-method works just fine. I believed that in Clojure everything is dynamic and can be changed via REPL at any time but not here :-(
03:07	weavejester	HolyJak: It's because the symbol is resolved before being passed to the function
03:07	weavejester	HolyJak: For instance, if I (def x 1) (def y (+ x 1)) (def x 2)
03:08	Raynes	Vars, baby.
03:08	weavejester	HolyJak: Then y would be 2, and not 3, because it's redefined after, and only the current value is used when passed to a function
03:08	Raynes	weavejester: Isn't it the case that he can pass a var here?
03:08	weavejester	Raynes: Right, I was coming to that :)
03:08	Raynes	:p
03:08	Raynes	Sorry for spoiling the surprise.
03:08	Raynes	;)
03:09	weavejester	HolyJak: But you can use a var to explicitly make it re-evaluate it each time
03:09	weavejester	HolyJak: So (run-jetty (var app) {:port 8080})
03:09	weavejester	HolyJak: Or for short, (run-jetty #'app {:port 8080})
03:10	kasterma	Does #' have a name I can google for?
03:11	HolyJak	weavejester, Raynes: thanks a lot! So the function, if passed just as 'app', will be in a way "passed by value" while #'app is a pass-by-reference and thus will reflect later changes?
03:11	weavejester	kasterma: "var" perhaps? (var x) = #'x
03:12	amalloy	var-quote will probably get useful hits also
03:12	weavejester	HolyJak: Yes, roughly speaking.
03:12	pwned	kasterma: it is an anonymous function
03:12	HolyJak	I believed that function names are actually vars but now I see they are not - what are they then? What is it that I pass to the run-jetty function?
03:13	HolyJak	(I can google the answer myself if you give me the right keywords to look for :-))
03:13	weavejester	HolyJak: When Clojure evaluates a function form, it resolves any symbols before passing then as arguments
03:13	HolyJak	I see
03:14	ChongLi	sharp-quote
03:14	weavejester	HolyJak: So if Clojure comes across (foo x), it will work out what x is before passing it to foo
03:14	ChongLi	I believe that's the term for it
03:14	HolyJak	So whenever passign functions around, if I want to allow them to change later, I have to explicitely var them, right?
03:14	amalloy	ChongLi: that will turn up more common-lisp hits than clojure hits
03:14	ChongLi	amalloy: clojure sharp-quote gives good results
03:15	weavejester	HolyJak: If you're def-ing something static, yes. If you're calling a function then it's evaluated each time.
03:16	pwned	sorry it is a var quote https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/clojure/jDBAJD4nWqs
03:16	kasterma	weavejester amalloy pwned: thx, found some docs.
03:16	weavejester	HolyJak: So… (def y (+ x 1)) is just going to have its body evaluated once, because it's a single value.
03:16	HolyJak	Yep, I managed to understand that for values but wasn't sure how it works with functions.
03:16	HolyJak	Thenk you folks, I love you :-)
03:17	ChongLi	functions are values :)
03:17	weavejester	HolyJak: But… (def f (fn [] (+ x 1))) will resolve x each time f is called.
03:17	HolyJak	I see
03:17	alandipert	Raynes: nice work on laser btw, dig it
03:17	weavejester	HolyJak: So in theory you could also write (run-jetty (fn [req] (app req)) {:port 8080})
03:18	weavejester	HolyJak: The anonymous function itself would only be resolved once, but "app" would be resolved each time the function is called.
03:18	weavejester	HolyJak: But it's more concise to just use #'app
03:18	HolyJak	thank you
03:18	weavejester	Ah, I gotta go
03:18	Raynes	alandipert: o/
03:19	Raynes	Happy you like it, kind sir.
03:29	TheBusby	anyone using s3-wagon-private repos?
03:31	Raynes	alandipert: If you actually use laser, let me know. So far people keep talking about how great it is but nobody has actually mentioned using it (besides me, of course).
03:31	Raynes	Which is good, since it probably means people aren't having problems.
03:31	Raynes	Of which I had plenty during development, which is why I was at version 0.1.30 before I released 1.0.0.
03:32	alandipert	Raynes: sure, i hope to use it in the near term to generate poms. i'll let you know how it goes
03:32	Raynes	Ouch, XML?
03:33	Raynes	I don't know how well that will work. jsoup is a validating HTML5 parser.
03:33	alandipert	yeah, i'm writing a thing called jitjar that looks like a maven repo but actually builds .jars dynamically off github
03:33	alandipert	oh
03:34	Raynes	With that said, jsoup also has a non-validating version designed for XML, but the current version lacks a method I need (but the author added when I mentioned it). As soon as jsoup releases a version with that method I'll add xml support to laser.
03:34	Raynes	Simple XML support, at least. Probably at least on the level of enlive.
03:34	alandipert	that's all i'd need
03:35	Raynes	alandipert: Actually, looks like he did release a new version with that change! In that case, I'll see about adding this tomorrow. Look for a new version in a couple of days, probably tomorrow night if I don't run into any significant problems.
03:36	alandipert	Raynes: cool!
03:44	Raynes	alandipert: It just occurred to me that you are up very, very late.
03:44	Raynes	On a Tuesday no less.
03:44	Raynes	Be careful or you'll start reminding me of me.
03:45	alandipert	Raynes: i don't let the incidental positions of various stars interfere with my computings ;-)
03:45	Raynes	Haha
03:47	Raynes	alandipert: I didn't know you were deployed to Iraq.
03:48	Raynes	I didn't know any of these things, actually.
03:48	Raynes	Congrats on such a positive outlook.
03:48	alandipert	Raynes: ya
03:48	alandipert	Raynes: thanks
04:00	ChongLi	alandipert: you're in Iraq right now?
04:00	alandipert	ChongLi: ha, no, fortunately
04:01	ChongLi	alandipert: well good luck when you do go
04:01	ChongLi	stay safe
04:01	alandipert	ChongLi: thanks but i went/did/returned :-)
04:01	ChongLi	oh ok :)
04:03	ChongLi	so Javelin seems pretty cool
04:04	ChongLi	what sort of latency does FRP like that add?
04:05	alandipert	negligible, in up to pretty big browser-based systems anyway
04:05	alandipert	technically propagation time is linear with respect to the number of formulas
04:06	ChongLi	ahh
04:06	alandipert	(worst case)
04:08	alandipert	it's good that it's fast, you get a stackoverflow and know you have a cycle almost instantly ;-)
04:08	ChongLi	hahaha
04:08	ChongLi	yeah I really like this design
04:08	ChongLi	it seems so simple and straightforward
04:09	alandipert	thank you, it was a lot of work
04:09	alandipert	have you had a chance to play with it?
04:09	ChongLi	not yet
04:09	ChongLi	I probably will within the next few days
04:10	alandipert	cool, well definitely give a shout if you have questions
04:10	ChongLi	so a formula cell can have side effects I presume?
04:10	ChongLi	is that recommended?
04:12	alandipert	the idiom we're settling into is formulas for side effects are anonymous, but i'd say do whatever makes sense
04:12	alandipert	nothing stopping you from wiring however you want except that stackoverflow
04:12	ChongLi	cool
04:13	ChongLi	it seems like I could use this to clean up some callbacks
04:13	ChongLi	and just focus on getting values updating
04:13	ChongLi	instead of directly coupling things with callbacks
04:14	alandipert	yup that's the hope
04:14	alandipert	one conceptual difference is there is no event to "kick off" what used to be your callbacks, so w/ javelin you have to code as if there's always a base value
04:15	alandipert	which we came to realize makes total sense, since an app always has a state, even if that state is empty
04:15	ChongLi	yeah
04:16	alandipert	had you used other FRP libs?
04:16	ChongLi	I toyed around with flapjax a bit
04:16	ChongLi	it's quite a bit more complex and somewhat confusing
04:17	ChongLi	it seemed like events and behaviours had a lot of overlap
04:17	piranha	what javelin needs is a library for dealing with DOM :)
04:17	ChongLi	nah, I like that javelin is not complected
04:17	ChongLi	it's the Clojure way
04:18	piranha	I'm building helpers for myself (well, copying them from javelin-demos.dom and modifying them), but still
04:18	piranha	sure, javelin should be as it is, but there should be another library
04:18	alandipert	well, we're attacking the DOM thing separaetly with hlisp, an HTML syntax front for cljs
04:18	piranha	so it's easier to start working with
04:19	alandipert	piranha: how's it going btw?
04:19	ChongLi	hmm
04:19	piranha	right, I've seen it, but... I'm a bit sceptical. :) You know, it looks like mixing code with layout again...
04:19	ChongLi	I googled hlisp and I'm getting a bunch of github 404s
04:19	alandipert	ChanServ: https://github.com/tailrecursion/todoFRP/tree/master/todo/hlisp-javelin
04:19	alandipert	err
04:19	alandipert	ChongLi: https://github.com/tailrecursion/todoFRP/tree/master/todo/hlisp-javelin
04:20	piranha	alandipert: well, haven't done anything proper yet, just got to setting up base stuff; but I'm giving a talk this Saturday about FRP and replaced Flapjax with Javelin there ;)
04:20	ChongLi	ah ok
04:20	alandipert	piranha: sweet!
04:20	piranha	'just got' == 15 minutes ago, too much work lately :(
04:20	alandipert	piranha: i understand your concern, but don't worry, it will be awesome when it's done ;-)
04:20	ChongLi	there's a lot of weird stuff going on in the DOM and the browser in general
04:21	ChongLi	I've been working on getting dynamic font loading working
04:21	ChongLi	and it's a bit of a pain
04:21	piranha	alandipert: ok, I'll wait and in the meantime will try to work it out other way :)
04:21	alandipert	piranha: deal
04:21	ChongLi	google's webfont loader requiring you to stuff everything into a global variable
04:22	piranha	ChongLi: that's the problem with all of their APIs :\
04:23	alandipert	piranha: btw if you're willing, would love to add anything you come up with to -demos
04:24	piranha	alandipert: ok! :) not sure though how soon will I get something, I won't have much time during next two weeks due to travel
04:24	alandipert	whenever
04:24	ChongLi	and to think I was taking a look at Elm for some FRP stuff
04:25	piranha	did you like it?
04:25	ChongLi	it's a really nice language but I just can't part with clojure
04:25	ChongLi	the libraries and community are just too compelling
04:25	piranha	it felt a bit strange to me, but maybe I just don't understand something there
04:26	ChongLi	CLJS, as immature as it is, is way ahead of Elm and Fay
04:26	alandipert	i thought the elm paper was great
04:26	alandipert	but yeah, all of those things seem most appealing to people in languages without existing state models
04:26	alandipert	and bring a lot of baggage to fill the gap
04:27	ChongLi	and they strip away platform power
04:27	ChongLi	to do anything with JS in those languages you have to go through an FFI
04:28	ChongLi	CLJS's interop is so much nicer than that
04:28	augustl	anyone here happen to know if it's possible to have tomcat automatically share .jars from "lein ring uberwar" packages based on name+checksum or something? Or do I manually have to
04:28	augustl	.. configure this, upload the shared .jar files manually, etc?
04:29	alandipert	yeah i'm excited about javelin on both sides... server as input cell
04:29	alandipert	(or formula)
04:31	ChongLi	so basically any callback can be set to update an input cell, triggering the network to propagate?
04:32	stain	augustl: what do you mean by 'share'?
04:32	ChongLi	this just seems so clean
04:32	stain	augustl: you have JARs inside the WAR that you want to expose?
04:32	alandipert	ChongLi: right
04:33	augustl	stain: my actual problem is that I have multiple war files that contain a .jar file (a dependency) that links into a JNI module, causing tomcat7 to fail since it can only load the jni module once. So I have to figure out how to make the multiple apps share the same .jar, so to speak, so it's only loaded once
04:34	ChongLi	now throw in core.logic and already CLJS seems so damn compelling
04:42	alandipert	ChongLi, piranha : see you later! happy computing
04:43	bluezenix	@augustl you'll have to put that jar in the tomcat lib directory, so it's loaded on startup
04:46	augustl	bluezenix: tried to put the .jar file in $CATALINA_HOME/lib, no change. Removed the .jar file manually from the war files, and then it worked. So it seems I need to manually manage the dependencies that I want to be shared
04:53	stain	yes
04:54	stain	in Maven we would use <scope>provided</scope> for that if I remember correctly
04:54	stain	not sure how you can inject that into Leiningen
04:55	stain	just :scope "provided" I think
04:55	stain	it's tricky if that dependency is implied by someone else, then you would be better to try to ignore it
06:18	kittylyst	Hi. Anyone have some cycles to help me with a quick Leiningen problem?
06:21	babilen	As always: Just ask your real questions. Otherwise you find yourself with an answer of "Sure!" in one hour and are none the wiser.
06:26	kittylyst	On latest Leiningen, running a lein new results in a project which won't lein repl properly - crashes with a ClassCastException: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.tools.nrepl.server.Server cannot be cast to compile__stub.clojure.tools.nrepl.server.Server
06:26	kittylyst	Google has precisely 1 hit for this, which is a page of discussion from this channel from last summer.
06:27	cemerick	kittylyst: how did you install lein?
06:28	kittylyst	Upgraded from a previous version
06:29	kittylyst	Oh, and this is Clojure 1.4.0 on OpenJDK8 on Mac 10.7, FWIW
06:29	cemerick	bizarre; it sounds like an AOT fubar, but I'm not sure how...
06:30	kittylyst	I'll retry this on a clean box
06:37	kittylyst	Completely clean install on 1.4.0, OpenJDK7, Ubuntu (only other thing I have around easily) works fine, thankfully
06:42	kittylyst	Interesting. Back on the Mac, cleaning off lein & reinstalling doesn't produce the self-install behaviour. So there could be some fragment of an earlier install kicking around which is mucking things up somehow.
06:49	kittylyst	Resolution: One of the lein self-install jars was owned by root (must have done an lein upgrade at some point whilst root), so I think the wrong jar was getting loaded. Cleaning out self-installs & rerunning lein fixed the issue.
07:33	michaelr525	hey
08:19	aib	I just want a plain old struct - something with named members and no other functionality whatsoever. what type should I go with?
08:24	dobladez	aib: deftype gives you the most basic typed "struct"
08:25	dobladez	aib: but why not just maps?
08:26	dobladez	aib: for doc about deftype see http://clojure.org/datatypes
08:26	aib	(I never said no maps :) but my members are predefined and unvarying - think ColorRGB or Vector3
08:30	aib	I just want named accessors- (let [c (ColorRGB :r 255)] (.r c)) or something along those lines
08:31	aib	I'm new to clojure, have I mentioned that? :)
08:44	aib	okay, (hash-map :r 255) and (get c :r) working for now
08:46	cmdrdats	aib: you can just {:r 255} - then (:r c) or (get c :r 0) (using get, you can specify a default if the :r key is not found)
08:47	aib	ahh, more sugar! thanks
08:47	cmdrdats	another handy function is (update-in c [:r] - 10)
08:47	cmdrdats	,(update-in {:r 255} [:r] - 10)
08:47	clojurebot	{:r 245}
08:51	dnolen	aib: (:foo bar) is not really "sugar", keywords are actually functions.
08:51	dnolen	cmdrdats: you can actually provide default with (:foo bar default) as well
08:51	cmdrdats	dnolen: brilliant - that's good to know :D
09:29	jweiss	in a macro-creating macro, how does one expand into ~@body?
09:39	arkh	is there a way to break up a regular expression #"" into multiple lines?
09:40	arkh	not to be confused with a multiline match (?m)
09:42	ambrosebs	I've started a "Getting Started" guide to core.typed. It explains why core.typed is different from other type systems, what types are, and some details https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/wiki/Getting-started
09:42	ambrosebs	Feedback welcome. I'm starting on another chapter that deals with actual examples.
09:47	matthavener	ambrosebs: awesome
09:55	dnolen	ambrosebs: looks like a great start!
10:14	ambrosebs	dnolen: thanks
10:22	ambrosebs	dnolen: is this not redundant in CLJS or something? (and (sequential? v) (not (nil? v)))
10:26	TimMc	arkh: Just hit Enter. You'll get a newline, though...
10:27	jimduey	ambrosebs: Awesome. I'm just getting ready to dive into TC to see what I can steal for a static analysis problem I'm working on.
10:27	TimMc	On a more serious note... ##(re-pattern (str #"a" #"b")) as long as each subexpression is a valid regular expression.
10:27	lazybot	⇒ #"ab"
10:27	dnolen	ambrosebs: it not, CLJS extends nil to protocols
10:27	dnolen	ambrosebs: which I'm leaning towards purging
10:28	dnolen	"it is not redundant" I mean
10:28	arkh	TimMc: nice - str'ing them together is great, thank you
10:29	ambrosebs	jimduey: Sweet. I've made some good improvements since the Conj. "Single dispatch" MMs work and there's a bit of flow analysis, things like in-body assertions are understood.
10:29	ambrosebs	dnolen: I thought a sequential was implicitly a seqable.
10:30	dnolen	ambrosebs: I'm using a new experimental ^not-native type-hint
10:30	dnolen	ambrosebs: this type hint means protocols are dispatched to directly as a performance thing
10:30	dnolen	ambrosebs: but nil is really JS null, it's a native type
10:31	dnolen	ambrosebs: so if you use ^not-native you have to explicitly handle null
10:31	dnolen	ambrosebs: it's a minor thing but it's just about failing faster
10:31	ambrosebs	Ok. It doesn't seem right that nil is sequential.
10:31	dnolen	ambrosebs: nope
10:32	dnolen	ambrosebs: the moment nil is no longer extended to core protocols I can remove that bit of ugliness
10:32	ambrosebs	cool
10:34	dnolen	zebra down to 12.5-7ms on CLJS, I think ^non-native support for function invocation might take us the rest of the way ...
10:34	ambrosebs	dnolen: CLJS implementation has me going back and forth as to the true role of nil. It would be nice to get rid of the confusion.
10:34	dnolen	under v8 of course
10:35	dnolen	ambrosebs: I think the nil-punning protocols were there for convenience
10:35	dnolen	ambrosebs: but it's bad for perf and semantics are strange
10:35	ambrosebs	Interesting.
10:35	ambrosebs	Well I'm glad there's more than one reason to change it :)
10:35	dnolen	ambrosebs: the reason is that nil is a native type, so it goes down the protocol slow path
10:36	jcromartie	I'm on an EC2 instance, and lein is painfully slow. I know I don't need it because I could push an uberjar… but this is bad
10:36	ambrosebs	dnolen: ok
10:36	dnolen	ambrosebs: I think nil should be handled at the fn level - lookup, not -loookup
10:36	dnolen	not -lookup, I mean
10:36	ambrosebs	yep, and etc. for the rest of the protocols.
10:36	dnolen	ambrosebs: which more closely matches CLJ JVM semantics as well
10:36	jcromartie	on my laptop, "time lein" (printing out available tasks) takes 13s
10:36	jcromartie	(which is kind of ridiculous in itself of course…)
10:37	jcromartie	on the server it's 27s
10:38	jcromartie	,(time (apply + (range 10e6)))
10:38	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 1740.250494 msecs"\n49999995000000
10:38	jcromartie	hm, well clojurebot is more in line with the EC2 speed I guess
10:39	jcromartie	1828 on the server but 431 on my laptop
10:39	jcromartie	I guess little EC2 instances are just not as beefy
10:44	cemerick	dnolen: FYI, Thomas Heller has his CA in now (according to http://clojure.org/contributing) (re: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-466)
10:45	cemerick	jcromartie: this is a micro?
10:50	jcromartie	cemerick: I think it's a Small
10:51	cemerick	jcromartie: yeah, either way; horrific IO on those, thus really poor class/code loading perf.
10:52	jcromartie	ah, thanks. good to know
10:52	jcromartie	so keep any file i/o asynch if possible heh
11:08	jcrossley3	ohpauleez: do you mind sharing a link for your talk when you have it? we like to list them on immutant.org
11:09	ohpauleez	jcrossley3: We typically don't record them (they're usually swarm based), but I will ping you a link to a blog post on how I got up and running
11:10	ohpauleez	Honestly, I was extremely pleased with both OpenShift and Immutant
11:10	ohpauleez	and the two together made quick work of me getting something together and out the door
11:10	ohpauleez	I'm more than happy to support both efforts however you need
11:10	jcrossley3	ohpauleez: coolio. no recording necesssary, btw. we just like to let folks know if anyone's about to speak near them. the meetup url is fine.
11:11	ohpauleez	Cool
11:25	jcidaho	Anyone using clj-elasticsearch?
11:25	jcidaho	in the docs I can't see an example of how you actually do a search
11:31	jcidaho	Think I'll opt for elastisch
11:39	kittylyst	I need a clojure lib to talk to MongoDB. Is Monger a reasonable choice?
11:42	dcolish	this is very confusing behavior when i am calling a method on a class instance in a macro https://gist.github.com/dcolish/5039976
11:44	Frozenlock	kittylyst: Never tried monger, but I use congomondo and like it.
11:45	ethanis	Anyone have experience using lein cljsbuild with a local git clone of cljs? I've tried following the instructions on the wiki to the dot (https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/wiki/Using-a-Git-Checkout-of-the-ClojureScript-Compiler), alongside r1586, but no dice. The compiler stalls indefinitely with no visual indication of what's going wrong. Thoughts?
11:47	TimMc	dcolish: Your parens are messed up.
11:47	TimMc	You're giving .at only one arg.
11:47	ohpauleez	ethanis: Are you using Linux?
11:47	ethanis	yep!
11:47	ohpauleez	I knew it!
11:47	dcolish	TimMc: I added a ` to the (recur ... and it seemed to compile
11:47	ethanis	uh oh, what's wrong with openjdk now?
11:47	ohpauleez	there's a weird CLJS bug, where the compiler will hang for like five minutes
11:48	ohpauleez	on the first build
11:48	TimMc	dcolish: Or rather, the parens are correct, but you're missing an arg.
11:48	ohpauleez	try using `auto` and not `once`
11:48	ethanis	alright
11:48	ohpauleez	this JUST happened to me two days ago
11:48	ohpauleez	and I didn't dig in to find the fix
11:48	ohpauleez	but that seemed to work out for me
11:48	TimMc	dcolish: y the way, I see no reason for this to be a macro instead of a fn.
11:48	TimMc	*By the way
11:49	dcolish	TimMc: fair enough, I'm mostly playing around now
11:49	ethanis	hmm, now I'm kind of curious about what's causing it
11:49	ohpauleez	ethanis: I am as well
11:49	TimMc	dcolish: Well, sprinkling macros liberally with syntax-quotes is not going to make them work.
11:49	ethanis	well, I'll heed your suggestion and see how it goes. Comforting to know someone else had this issue.
11:49	ohpauleez	there are reported issues of the same situation on the internet, but like I said, I didn't dig in too deep
11:50	TimMc	You've misused ~@ as well.
11:50	ethanis	thanks ohpauleez, ttyl #clojure
11:50	ohpauleez	np, happy to give some guidance
11:51	dcolish	TimMc: well thats not too surprising, I really have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to macros
11:52	TimMc	dcolish: This is probably closer to what you want: https://gist.github.com/timmc/5040043
11:53	TimMc	~@ splices a sequence of forms into an enclosing form: ##(let [a (range 3)] `(:foo ~@a :bar))
11:53	lazybot	⇒ (:foo 0 1 2 :bar)
11:53	clojurebot	format is http://github.com/tomfaulhaber/cl-format/tree/master
11:53	TimMc	As opposed to just normal unquoting: ##(let [a (range 3)] `(:foo ~a :bar))
11:53	lazybot	⇒ (:foo (0 1 2) :bar)
11:54	dcolish	ah then ~@ is definitely not what I wanted
11:58	TimMc	Macros are rarely what you want.
11:59	TimMc	For instance, if you had created that as a macro, no one would be able to write #(apply write-builder foo some-args)
11:59	TimMc	(Umm, I don't know why I put that # in there. Ignore that.)
12:00	jcromartie	I added :plugins [[lein-ring "0.8.3"]] to my project.clj, but I can't run "lein ring server" etc.
12:00	jcromartie	I can do it locally, but not on the server
12:01	TimMc	jcromartie: Try `lein ring server-headless`, out of curiosity.
12:01	jcromartie	oh huh, I didn't fetch on the server :)
12:01	dcolish	TimMc: thats fair, thanks for the help. Its a lot more readable without the macro as well
12:01	jcromartie	never mind
12:01	jcromartie	I have my terminals confused
12:02	TimMc	Maybe it's failing when trying to launch the browser.
12:03	jcromartie	but yes, the headless bit is important now
12:03	jcromartie	all is well
12:06	TimMc	I'm surprised it wasn't throwing.
12:10	dribnet	hi, any clojurescript + sublime folks listening?
12:12	rasmusto	is there a preferred place to put "example" (not necessarily test) code in leiningen projects? Should I use myns-examples.clj or somesuch? I currently have comment blocks in "myns.clj"
12:13	S11001001	~ask
12:13	clojurebot	Pardon?
12:13	S11001001	~anyone
12:13	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
12:14	hyPiRion	rasmusto: example code? I put it in markdown files. You would usually like to have that as documentation/tutorial
12:14	Foxboron	dribnet: well, i got some knowledge of Sublime if it helps. Not cljs tho.
12:14	hyPiRion	Otherwise make a new repo and create a project using it
12:15	dribnet	ah. well i learned this past week how simple it is to make cljs sublime plugins with emmet.
12:15	dribnet	i was pretty stoked about it and just wanted to share the news.
12:15	dnolen	dribnet: cool!
12:16	rasmusto	hyPiRion: ok, makes sense. What would you recommend doing with code that I used to incrementally debug what I was writing, should I convert it to test cases?
12:17	hyPiRion	rasmusto: Either manifest it as tests or just let it stay in a file you don't put into the repository
12:19	rasmusto	hyPiRion: perfect, thanks.
12:21	ivan	how do I unrefer things from a namespace?
12:22	hyPiRion	ivan: deref?
12:22	hyPiRion	,(deref #'+)
12:22	clojurebot	#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@f9bc78>
12:23	ivan	I mean I did (require '[clojure.pprint :refer [pp]]) and now I want to get rid of pp so that I can (def pp)
12:24	ivan	oh, ns-unmap
12:32	seangrove	Is there a way to get a 'submap' from a map, e.g. (submap {:a 10 :b 20 :c 100} [:a :c]) => {:a 10 :c 100} ?
12:33	sproc	Is there an existing function to shuffle/intersperse two lists? i.e., (something '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) ;=> '(1 4 2 5 3 6)
12:33	hyPiRion	sproc: ##(interpose '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))
12:33	lazybot	⇒ (4 (1 2 3) 5 (1 2 3) 6)
12:33	hyPiRion	interleave, rather
12:33	sproc	Ah, thanks,.
12:33	hyPiRion	,(interleave '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))
12:33	clojurebot	(1 4 2 5 3 ...)
12:33	hyPiRion	seangrove: select-keys
12:34	hyPiRion	,(select-keys {:a 10, :b 20, :c 100} [:a :c])
12:34	clojurebot	{:c 100, :a 10}
12:34	seangrove	Ah, beautiful
12:34	seangrove	I wrote it out and thought there's probably something in core for it
12:34	hyPiRion	And you're right :)
12:41	rasmusto	hyPiRion: whew, I'm no longer going insane from `git add -p` everytime I need to change something, thanks for the tips :)
12:42	hyPiRion	rasmusto: You're welcome :) What kind of editor are you using, by the way?
12:42	rasmusto	hyPiRion: vim + foreplay + fugitive
12:42	rasmusto	er, and paredit.vim
12:43	znDuff	How does paredit.vim compare to paredit.el?
12:43	rasmusto	znDuff: it's a subset of the features as far as I know, I haven't used emacs all that much
12:43	hyPiRion	ah. Not sure if there's some git variant for vim, but emacs has this excellent package named magit which makes most git commands much faster to type
12:44	rasmusto	hyPiRion: fugitive does the equivalent
12:44	hyPiRion	ah, nice
12:50	jcromartie	does it ever make sense to use a map like {:foo {:id :foo …}} over a set like #{{:id :foo …}}
12:50	jcromartie	basically use a hash map as an index
12:51	jcromartie	is the ID really part of the thing?
12:52	palango	hey, I'm trying to validate a html form with (lib-)noir.validation, I looked up most stuff from the docs but when I include the on-error function in the code I get a Unbound cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IDeref exception.
12:53	palango	any idea what could cause that? sample code is here: http://pastebin.com/gBvTkYAQ
13:25	Frozenlock	What happens when 2 libraries need the same underlying library, but different versions? Are the 2 different versions packaged in the project?
13:26	S11001001	Frozenlock: shallowest wins, then leftmost wins
13:27	antares_	Elastisch 1.1.0-beta1 is released: http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/02/26/elastisch-1-dot-1-0-beta1-is-released/
13:30	Frozenlock	S11001001: Thanks!
13:44	seangrove	Hrm, how do I use java.sql.Timestamp in clojure?
13:47	seangrove	Do I have to require something first?
13:48	ppppaul	i'm in the mood for profiling
13:48	ppppaul	recommendations?
13:48	technomancy	any windows users want to try out the new self-install in lein.bat? https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/commit/66ed4818ec52249280c8f2ffb2221c20d32754eb
13:48	technomancy	no more curl/wget required
13:48	jeremyheiler	seangrove, You have to import it.
13:49	jeremyheiler	Like (ns foo.bar (:import [java.sql Timestamp]))
13:49	Raynes	technomancy: So, turns out that Haskell's 40MB binaries aren't even statically linked -- that's just how big it comes out on OS X. I can get it down to 23mb by calling strip on it.
13:49	jeremyheiler	Notice the space between sql and Timestamp
13:49	seangrove	jeremyheiler: Ah, thank you
13:49	arkx	Doesn't it work without the space as well?
13:49	technomancy	Raynes: that's less daunting but still a bit of a drag
13:50	frenchyp	seangrove: https://www.refheap.com/paste/11839
13:50	arkx	I mean, using a dot instead.
13:50	Raynes	technomancy: Turns out you only really need to statically link on Linux, since OS X ships with the libs that Haskell dynamically links again.
13:50	Raynes	technomancy: Not sure what you'd have to do in Windows.
13:50	TimMc	technomancy: So this adds a dependency on Powershell? (If not using Cygwin.)
13:50	technomancy	TimMc: yeah
13:51	technomancy	someone told me it's available everywhere except old versions of XP without a service pack installed
13:51	Raynes	technomancy: Awesome on using powershell!
13:51	TimMc	Huh, interesting.
13:51	technomancy	Raynes: that's, um, some uncharacteristic enthusiasm
13:51	jeremyheiler	arkx, Yeah, but then you have to use its fully qualified name. If you use the space, you can just use the class name.
13:51	technomancy	for a Windows feature =)
13:51	TimMc	Well, hear-say is good enough for me.
13:52	Raynes	technomancy: It's less pathetic than relying on a user to install curl.
13:53	kevinkevin	has anyone else found that exceptions generated in an agent action don't have stack traces?
13:53	technomancy	don't look at me; I just apply the patches, smile, and nod =)
13:55	technomancy	and when I say patch, I don't mean a pull request; for some reason this one was a gist
13:55	actsasgeek	is there a way to get lein to run with more memory? specifically lein swank? I saw something like: >JAVA_OPTS="-Xmx50g" lein swank but that doesn't seem to work...:/
13:56	technomancy	which I guess is better than when Windows users just put suggested changes in issue comments
13:56	hyPiRion	:jvm-opts ["-Xss18m"] for instance
13:56	hyPiRion	actsasgeek: ^
13:56	technomancy	JAVA_OPTS should work too though
13:56	hiredman	you may need a G instead of a g
13:57	jeremyheiler	arkx, Correction, the full qualifed name can always be used. So, importing with a dot instead of the space doesn't do anything.
13:58	technomancy	actsasgeek: JAVA_OPTS works here; what version are you running?
13:59	amalloy	hiredman: naw, i always use lower-case
13:59	actsasgeek	lein 2
13:59	actsasgeek	java 1.6.0
14:02	arkh	with the following: (defn foo [s] (let [re #"\d+"] (when (re-seq re s) true))) , does clojure have to recompile the regular expression at each function call?
14:03	znDuff	arkh: no, it doesn't.
14:03	arkh	znDuff: thanks
14:05	hyPiRion	it's compiled at read-time
14:11	actsasgeek	I dunno…something is funky here. Using the above, querying the runtime yields 505.625Mb for maximum memory. If I add -Xms50g -Xmx50g, I get a "incompatible values for minimum and maximum heap size" error.
14:13	Raynes	actsasgeek: Try setting the maximum "-Xmx" higher than the minimum,
14:14	actsasgeek	Raynes: I tried that as well. and get the same error.
14:14	znDuff	actsasgeek: ...by the way, what's your actual available physical memory?
14:14	amalloy	i rather doubt you really want clojure to have 50g of heap available. that generally just ends in tears
14:15	znDuff	...and telling the GC to not act until that much garbage has grown up isn't great either.
14:15	actsasgeek	61Gb
14:16	znDuff	I don't suppose there's any chance you might have a 32-bit JVM?
14:17	actsasgeek	I don't think so. The application runs with similar settings…I just don't seem able to affect them from the command line. And the strange thing is that I can't do it on my local MBP either.
14:18	znDuff	What's your output from ''java -version''?
14:18	pbostrom_	technomancy: I prefer not to refer to myself as a Windows user, but my day job requires it, so I gave it a whirl: https://www.refheap.com/paste/11840
14:19	actsasgeek	for the remote box, java version "1.6.0_25"
14:19	znDuff	actsasgeek: I'm actually interested in more of the output than just the number.
14:19	actsasgeek	java version "1.6.0_25"
14:19	actsasgeek	Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_25-b06)
14:19	actsasgeek	Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 20.0-b11, mixed mode)
14:20	znDuff	Hmm. No obvious warning signs there.
14:21	actsasgeek	so this works perfectly fine: java -Xms50g -Xmx50g Hello
14:22	technomancy	pbostrom_: thanks; I won't tell anyone =)
14:22	technomancy	pbostrom_: oh... yeah; I guess it won't work until 2.1.0 is released, heh
14:22	technomancy	can you try manually changing LEIN_VERSION to 2.0.0?
14:24	actsasgeek	just setting the jvm_opts inside project.clj worked; I was hoping to avoid that (because of dev/prod differences) but oh, well. I have no idea why it won't work. thanks for your help.
14:25	technomancy	actsasgeek: you can put it in the :dev or :production profile in project.clj
14:26	pbostrom_	technomancy: same error
14:27	pbostrom_	I couldn't load https://leiningen.s3.amazonaws.com/downloads/leiningen-2.0.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone.jar in my browser either
14:27	technomancy	pbostrom_: yeah, get rid of the -SNAPSHOT part
14:27	pbostrom_	wait, I forgot to leave off SNAPSHOT
14:27	pbostrom_	let me fire up Notepad.exe again
14:28	technomancy	(you weren't supposed to say that last part out loud)
14:28	TimMc	pbostrom_: Cue colored lights and techno music.
14:29	Hodapp	blah blah blah, look at me, I'm technomancy, I think I'm superior just because I use emacs!
14:29	TimMc	fast zoom on your face, where the computer screen has been projected
14:29	Hodapp	TimMc :P
14:29	technomancy	Hodapp: I got much respect for vim users =)
14:29	Hodapp	technomancy: ...because they have a tough penance to complete?
14:31	pbostrom_	technomancy: success! what's the Notepad shortcut for nrepl-jack-in again?
14:31	technomancy	hehe
14:31	technomancy	pbostrom_: thanks!
14:32	seangrove	Is there a way to get a list of options a java object has?
14:32	pbostrom_	np
14:32	amalloy	seangrove: i don't think there's any such thing to get a list of?
14:32	seangrove	clj-yaml relies on snakeyml but doesn't expose much, so I'm exploring clj/java interop here :P
14:33	jeremyheiler	seangrove, What do you mean by "optiosn"?
14:33	jeremyheiler	options...
14:33	seangrove	Ah, sorry
14:33	seangrove	Methods*
14:33	seangrove	I meant to type methods, but was looking at the word "options" :P
14:33	seangrove	The snakeYaml docs say that their DumperOptions object has a explicitStart method, the clojure repl disagrees. I'd like to see what methods it does have
14:34	jeremyheiler	seangrove, You'll have to juse Java's reflection.
14:34	antares_	seangrove: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5821286/how-can-i-get-the-methods-of-a-java-class-from-clojure
14:34	seangrove	jeremyheiler: Thanks, I'll look it up - haven't used it much yet
14:34	seangrove	antares_: Just got there, thanks
14:34	brianwong	(for [method (.getMethods java.awt.Frame)] method)
14:35	goracio	creating web site without routing some thoughts ...http://bit.ly/128NtOD
14:37	seangrove	brianwong: Very succint, thank you
14:37	brianwong	(for [method (.getMethods java.awt.Frame)] (.getName method))
14:37	brianwong	a little better
14:41	xorola	hi
14:42	kevinkevin	has anyone else found that exceptions generated in an agent action don't have stack traces?
14:44	amalloy	they probably just have very short stacktraces
14:48	actsasgeek	I was noticing the same thing about stack traces from exceptions in atoms. I wasn't sure if it was swank that was doing it though…but I never get a stack trace from an exception in an atom. I always have to try the stuff outside of it to find problems. I could be doing something wrong, admittedly.
14:54	kevinkevin	amalloy: They have no stack trace at all
14:54	kevinkevin	actsasgeek: did you find any way around it?
14:55	actsasgeek	kevinkevin: no, sorry. I just sort of live with it and curse.
14:55	kevinkevin	actsasgeek: it is a huge pain. makes it impossible to track down errors deep in a program
14:56	technomancy	there's a bug in the JVM that can delete stack traces with tiered compilation enabled
14:56	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1025
14:57	technomancy	kevinkevin: ^
14:57	clojurebot	I don't understand.
15:00	actsasgeek	interesting. why does specifying jvm-opts [] fix it? Wouldn't the defaults be merged into it?
15:01	kevinkevin	technomancy: thanks for the info
15:01	technomancy	actsasgeek: yeah; hrm. that is incorrect. :jvm-opts ["-XX:TieredStopAtLevel=1"] is a better fix.
15:01	technomancy	I'll update the ticket
15:01	technomancy	kevinkevin: not sure if that's the problem you're seeing, but it sounds familiar
15:02	kevinkevin	technomancy: it looks like it is, actually
15:02	actsasgeek	yeah, thanks.
15:02	kevinkevin	ran without lein and the stacktraces are there
15:03	technomancy	tiered compilation gives a huge speed boost to startup, but apparently it's not perfect yet
15:04	TimMc	A whole mess of issues around it, yeah?
15:04	TimMc	I feel like I've heard of maybe 3 different problems it causes in just this past week.
15:06	technomancy	maybe I missed something? this is the only problem I'm aware of, other than it not being as fast as it could be in 2.0.0.
15:09	milos_cohagen	sorry for off topic q, but.. :) is there a emacs lisp fn to switch to the last visited buffer without prompting me? i want to call 'switch-to-buffer non-interactively
15:12	amalloy	milos_cohagen: try #emacs
15:13	Raynes	Not that it's so offtopic that nobody wants to answer it, just that #emacs is more likely to actually have the answer.
15:13	milos_cohagen	ya u guys r right, i'm a bit of newb to irc and this group is only one i visited so far
15:14	antares_	milos_cohagen: I use https://gist.github.com/michaelklishin/62710c5622e84951c916, seems to do what you need?
15:15	brehaut	milos_cohagen: have a look at what C-x left and C-x right are bound to?
15:15	brehaut	(no idea if thats default, or starter kit default)
15:15	milos_cohagen	antares: tyvm, works perfect
15:16	milos_cohagen	brehaut: works too, ty guys
15:17	amalloy	brehaut: must be a real default, since i have it too
15:18	brehaut	cool
15:22	Frozenlock	Moving from protocols to multimethods... Is there a way to deal with `nil'?
15:23	Frozenlock	My multi dispatch based on the class
15:23	brehaut	Frozenlock: you can implement a protocol for nil
15:24	milos_cohagen	clojure q now.. i'm editing a clojure file in a lein proj w/emacs+nrepl.. i eval a fn in current file, get an error, the err comes from a fn defined in other ns, so my workflow is: switch buffer to the other ns, call 'nrepl-set-ns, modify fn, eval fn, switch back to prev buffer, call 'nrepl-set-ns, call the original fn to see if it works without err, if err repeat workflow.. so my q is: is there a better workflow?
15:24	Frozenlock	brehaut: So multi for everything, but a protocol for nil?
15:25	znDuff	milos_cohagen: If you eval anything with C-x C-e, it's always done in the current ns, so you can put your test statements inside of a comment in your files and eval them, removing the need to do the nrepl-set-ns.
15:25	brehaut	Frozenlock: oh right, my bad
15:25	brehaut	Frozenlock: got it backwards
15:25	Frozenlock	:p
15:25	brehaut	,(class nil)
15:25	clojurebot	nil
15:25	brehaut	Frozenlock: i
15:25	znDuff	milos_cohagen: ...also, you might consider recompiling the whole file (C-c C-k) rather than just evaling the piece you change, if there are other things depending on the code you're modifying which could be broken by your changes.
15:25	brehaut	'd just use nil as the class by the looks of that
15:26	Frozenlock	I tried that, but I got an error...
15:26	Frozenlock	(defmethod my-method nil nil)
15:26	brehaut	Frozenlock: what is your defmulti line?
15:27	Frozenlock	(defmulti my-method class)
15:27	Frozenlock	(defmulti my-method #(if % (class %) :nil)) could do it perhaps...
15:27	brehaut	Frozenlock: no, class should be fine
15:28	brehaut	Frozenlock: shouldnt you have an arg list in there somewhere? (defmethod my-method nil [] nil) ?
15:28	Frozenlock	Oh right!
15:28	brehaut	blerk not [], [_]
15:29	Frozenlock	brehaut: and now it works :)
15:29	Frozenlock	Thanks you so much
15:29	brehaut	Frozenlock: o/
15:29	Frozenlock	\o
15:29	Frozenlock	I was sure it was a multi-related problem
15:30	brehaut	Frozenlock: its not a very clear error it gives you
15:30	Frozenlock	The best kind of error: java.lang.NullPointerException
15:30	brehaut	Frozenlock: if you get the full stacktrace it does tell you its coming from the method parser though
15:31	maio	hm JVM_OPTS=-d32 and Clojure startup time is few seconds faster. are there any other tricks to make it even faster? :)
15:40	thorwil	could a java.lang.NullPointerException at a (korma.core/defentity comment ...) be due to comment already being defined by clojure.core?
15:41	znDuff	defentity is a macro, right?
15:42	antares_	thorwil: yes, you can use :refer-clojure :exclude [comment] to avoid that. comment returns nil.
15:42	znDuff	So we don't know what code that actually expands to without actually using macroexpand. It certainly could expand to something where comment's preexisting definition could be a problem (in which case the approach given above will avoid it)
15:43	thorwil	yes, a macro
15:46	thorwil	happens way too often that i stumble over vars not being defined and stuff like that, when i get back to work (with a lein immutant run)
15:47	thorwil	(:refer-clojure :exclude [comment]) did fix it, thanks antares_
15:48	qizwiz	having trouble finding this. What's the best way to trace through the source in emacs once you've issed "lein run"?
15:48	qizwiz	I found an example web app on github that I can't actually tell if it's doing anything
15:50	qizwiz	this is the app if anyone's interested: https://github.com/santervo/cardealer-demo
15:50	rabbit_airstrike	qizwiz: run the app in the background or in a screen?
15:50	clizzin	i'm working on a web app that i'd like to use clojure for, but that has to integrate with some java silliness (guice modules, if you know about that). it seems like i need to expose my clojure code as a class that acts like a java servlet. does anyone have a good example of this?
15:51	rabbit_airstrike	or you're looking for some kind of verbose mode for this webapp?
15:52	brehaut	clizzin: theres a ring adapter for that
15:52	brehaut	https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/tree/master/ring-servlet
15:53	qizwiz	I ran it from a terminal
15:54	augustl	hmm, clout (the route parser in compojure) seems to unescape escaped URIs, why does it do that? /foo/test%20me with a route "/foo/:my-thing" sets :route-params -> :my-thing to "test me", not "test%20me"
15:55	augustl	clout seems to do a decode on all "path segments", i.e. everything between a /, which essentially causes data loss (i no longer know what the original URL looked like)
15:56	clizzin	brehaut: oh cool! didn't see that in any of the ring docs. will give it a shot. thanks!
15:56	brehaut	clizzin: its mentioned in the primary ring readme ;)
15:58	rabbit_airstrike	qizwiz: possibly an unfilled mongodb dependency?
15:58	rabbit_airstrike	do you have mongodb installed and running for the example app?
16:00	TimMc	augustl: I'm pretty sure that's as designed.
16:00	augustl	TimMc: I wonder why, it's annoying :)
16:00	TimMc	%20 is an encoding for transport
16:01	TimMc	As a string in memory, you really want " " instead of "%20".
16:01	augustl	%20 is the actual value of the URL, not just for transport
16:01	augustl	..imo
16:02	augustl	is "/foo/" and "/foo%2f" the same URL?
16:02	brehaut	an accident of early browser location UIs
16:02	brehaut	im with TimMc; i think they are
16:02	augustl	can I safely do a request to %2ffoo instead of /foo in all situations?
16:03	SegFaultAX	augustl: Why would you use / within a path segment? It has special meaning inside of URIs.
16:03	rabbit_airstrike	qizwiz: after I installed and started mongodb, that example web-app you linked to works fine
16:03	augustl	SegFaultAX: is that relevant to the discussion? :)
16:03	TimMc	augustl: / might be a special case.
16:04	SegFaultAX	augustl: Yes, it is. Because / is a special case in the URI standards.
16:04	augustl	SegFaultAX: does escaped charcters have any meaning?
16:04	SegFaultAX	augustl: They're a transport encoding as TimMc said.
16:05	augustl	so I can't have any value I want in my URL?
16:05	augustl	even if I escape it?
16:05	TimMc	Empirically, http://www.google.com%2F breaks.
16:05	amalloy	%2F is required to behave differently from / in path segments
16:06	brehaut	amalloy: by spec or by historical accident of filesystem based webservers?
16:06	augustl	the actual issue is that I'm writing a proxy, with a clout match like "/proxy", and I pass (get-in req [:route-params :]) to the proxy. But clout unescapes it so I get an invalid URL (containing a literal / instead of %2f, for example)
16:06	amalloy	brehaut: by spec
16:07	amalloy	i can't imagine i would say "required" and mean "typically this is what happens"
16:07	Raynes	ohpauleez: Were the dude working on Clojure stuff for leapmotion?
16:07	augustl	so I have to manually fetch the actual escaped uri from the request and extract the relevant part (the part after /proxy)
16:07	ohpauleez	Raynes: I am
16:07	Raynes	ohpauleez: Have you seen https://getmyo.com/
16:07	ohpauleez	Raynes: I have not, looking now
16:08	Raynes	ohpauleez: It's pretty amazing.
16:08	augustl	amalloy, SegFaultAX, TimMc: so is the conclusion that an URI can't contain arbitrary values, such as slashes, even when escaped?
16:08	augustl	or is it a clout specific issue?
16:08	amalloy	of course it can. that's exactly what %2f is for: letting you put / into a uri without interpreting it as a path separator
16:09	SegFaultAX	augustl: I was only pointing out that it's confusing to use / as part of a path segment because it has special meaning in URIs.
16:09	ohpauleez	Raynes: It'll be interesting to see if that actually holds up - if they can make it as accurate as depicted in the video
16:09	SegFaultAX	augustl: (And you run into problems like you're having because of it)
16:09	augustl	You called it a "transport encoding", sounded very serious :)
16:10	augustl	SegFaultAX: it's clout that's at fault here, it seems
16:10	amalloy	for example, for URLs like http://my/server/redirect/google.com%2fhome or whatever similar stuff
16:10	Raynes	ohpauleez: I almost bet it'll be more accurate than leapmotion.
16:10	augustl	yet another example of erronous handling of URL encoding..
16:11	ohpauleez	Raynes: I don't know about that - the leap motion uses three IR beams, supporting mm accuracy, with 100 frames of data a second, for a 8ft x 8ft x 8 ft cube
16:11	Raynes	ohpauleez: Yeah, but even it isn't that accurate, given videos I've seen. It's extremely shaky, isn't it?
16:12	Raynes	Anyways, this uses your damn muscle movement. It's the logical step below hacking into your brain and interpreting your thoughts. I'm pretty optimistic about it.
16:13	rabbit_airstrike	anyone have any experience monitoring periodic at-at jobs?
16:13	ohpauleez	any sensor has jitter - there is no hardware or SDK smoothing at the moment, but it's not hard to implement or ignore. The jitter is not a problem in real-work use.
16:13	noprompt	yeah that looks pretty cool
16:13	ohpauleez	Raynes: Oh no, I think it totally looks cool
16:13	augustl	I posted an issue in the issue tracker of Clout, let's see what happens
16:13	augustl	would make sense to have an API like :route-params and :raw-route-params, or something like that.
16:13	bbloom	generally, you need to tune your smoothing to the use case
16:14	ohpauleez	I just have no knowledge about the accuracy of muscle detection // bio-electrical signaling
16:14	bbloom	for a really simple example, the little thumbsticks on video game controllers often have "dead zones" where, over time, they get loose, so the software ignores small dX or dY values
16:14	ohpauleez	bbloom: Right, which is why they've refrained from adding general smoothing
16:14	bbloom	but you can have a square dead zone, or a circular one, for two simple examples
16:17	noprompt	is pmap an example of concurrency or parallelism?
16:18	bbloom	noprompt: yes.
16:18	ohpauleez	haha
16:18	noprompt	bbloom: both?
16:18	noprompt	i'm trying to understand the distinction
16:18	bbloom	noprompt: it depends on whether or not you have two or more CPU cores
16:19	noprompt	bbloom: ah, ok
16:19	bbloom	if you have 1 CPU core, threads execute concurrently
16:19	bbloom	if you have two CPU cores, then they execute in parallel
16:19	ohpauleez	noprompt: sort of both - it's not true data parallelism (you're not operating on all pieces of the data at once), but it is a parallel operation, so you're doing more than one thing at the same time (concurrency)
16:20	bbloom	ohpauleez: discussion of "data parallelism" deeply confuses the issue
16:20	ohpauleez	and as bbloom said, it's all built on top of threads, which if you have a SMP OS and multiple cores, you get true concurrency
16:20	noprompt	gotcha
16:20	ohpauleez	bbloom: I disagree - avoiding it is misleading :)
16:21	ohpauleez	especially given its name
16:21	bbloom	ohpauleez: when data is parallel, it just means that it is capable of being processed concurrently
16:21	ohpauleez	no
16:21	ohpauleez	THAT'S the problem
16:21	ohpauleez	data parallelism is operating on individual items (usually used to imply ALL of the items) at once
16:22	ohpauleez	is pmap task parallel? Certainly not
16:22	ohpauleez	is it data parallel, sort of
16:22	ohpauleez	is it concurrent, Yes*
16:22	ohpauleez	* assuming you have more than one core
16:22	bbloom	task vs data parallel is orthogonal to concurrent vs parallel execution
16:22	ohpauleez	or else you just have thread and context concurrency
16:23	ohpauleez	bbloom: The question wasn't about execution
16:23	ohpauleez	it was about concurrency or parallelism
16:23	noprompt	i love this place
16:23	ohpauleez	and the latter comes in multiple forms
16:24	bbloom	he asked specifically about concurrency vs parallelism
16:24	ohpauleez	avoiding these terms isn't going to make them go away
16:24	ohpauleez	right, so let's be honest with him
16:24	ohpauleez	I feel we both were
16:24	bbloom	ohpauleez: i'm not avoiding them, i'm separating the discussion into two topics
16:24	bbloom	you can discuss them together and how they effect each other
16:24	bbloom	but he asked about concurrency, which has to do with execution
16:25	ohpauleez	noprompt: Do you feel like you've better understood how things are running?
16:25	ohpauleez	when you use pmap
16:25	noprompt	a little bit, but let me make sure i understand the big picture here
16:25	ohpauleez	ok
16:25	ohpauleez	fire away
16:26	noprompt	one second
16:28	noprompt	concurrency is operating on the same piece of data at the same time
16:29	bbloom	no
16:29	noprompt	ok
16:29	arohner	man I really wish lein had << included
16:29	SegFaultAX	noprompt: I think you've confused the problem by asking about pmap specifically. Maybe your question should be "what's the difference between concurrency and parallelism?"
16:29	bbloom	let's say you have two processes
16:29	antares_	ohpauleez: hey
16:30	bbloom	and by process, i don't mean computer process, i mean like the more abstract notion of some sequence of events
16:30	ohpauleez	antares_: Hey man
16:30	noprompt	SegFaultAX: yes, lets assume i had asked that question instead
16:30	bbloom	noprompt: imagine those processes have a start-time and an end-time
16:30	noprompt	k
16:30	antares_	ohpauleez: do you know if there any improvements on the electronic CA submissions front?
16:30	bbloom	concurrency happens when those two time-spans overlap
16:30	bbloom	ie Process A starts, then B starts before A finishes
16:31	ohpauleez	antares_: As far as I'm aware, you can email us a scan of a CA and we can mail it on your behalf
16:31	antares_	ohpauleez: or any "official links" to http://clojure-doc.org?
16:31	SegFaultAX	noprompt: But not necessarily running /at the exact same time/. Just with overlapping timelines.
16:31	bbloom	SegFaultAX: right
16:31	antares_	ohpauleez: email who? and why wasn't this announced?
16:31	ohpauleez	antares_: until there is some infrastructure in place to handle scans
16:31	noprompt	ah, ok, i think that's what was tripping me up in my thinking
16:31	bbloom	noprompt: you might have two projects due for work, so you take turns working on both of them a little bit at a time
16:32	bbloom	you're working on two projects concurrently
16:32	bbloom	however, if you could clone yourself and work on both projects concurrently, one each
16:32	bbloom	then you (and your clone) are working in parallel!
16:32	antares_	ohpauleez: but does that mean that scans are legally acceptable and Clojure/core now accepts them, it's just a matter of automation?
16:32	noprompt	so operations in parallel, they would necessarily have the same starting time (but maybe not the same ending time)?
16:32	SegFaultAX	noprompt: If you were to graph their timelines, it might look like \|A-start ... \|A-pause \|B-start ... \|B-pause \|A-resume ... \|A-finish \|B-resume ... \|B-finish
16:32	ohpauleez	antares_: It hasn't been totally settled yet, people are working on it. And you can make a post on the Clojure ML about the link and someone with access to the site content repo can add it to the docs page
16:32	SegFaultAX	noprompt: If you could imagine such an execution timeline.
16:33	noprompt	SegFaultAX: i can somewhat visualize that
16:33	bbloom	if, at any given time T, there are two or more processes that have started, but have not yet finished, then they are concurrent
16:33	bbloom	if at any given time T, there are two or more processes that are at that precise instant both executing, then they are parallel
16:33	ohpauleez	antares_: The scans still need to be printed out, stamped, and mailed - for the time being. There's still a hold up on direct scan acceptance right now
16:34	bbloom	parallelism implies concurrency
16:34	bbloom	concurrency does not imply parallelism
16:34	SegFaultAX	bbloom: Well said.
16:34	antares_	ohpauleez: oh well, that's already good news
16:34	antares_	ohpauleez: so you think we should start a discussion on the ML about having a link to clojure-doc.org from clojure.org?
16:35	bbloom	noprompt: with us so far?
16:35	SegFaultAX	noprompt: The other issue of task vs. data parallelism is orthogonal to the above-described execution strategy.
16:35	bbloom	SegFaultAX: yes, i was going there next. just to pleez ohpauleez :-)
16:35	SegFaultAX	bbloom: Hah, ok I'll let you finish it then :)
16:35	noprompt	bbloom: yes, i think that last bit clarified it
16:35	ohpauleez	bbloom: :)
16:35	ohpauleez	thank you'
16:35	bbloom	ok, soooo data & task parallel ism
16:36	ohpauleez	SUPER easy
16:36	ohpauleez	may I field this one?
16:36	SegFaultAX	ohpauleez: For someone new to concurrent programming, task/data parallelism just muddies the waters with additional terminology.
16:36	ohpauleez	SegFaultAX: Really?
16:36	bbloom	I agree
16:36	ohpauleez	how so
16:36	SegFaultAX	ohpauleez: I think so, yes.
16:36	ohpauleez	what?!?!
16:36	bbloom	it overloads the word "parallel"
16:36	ohpauleez	haha I can't believe I'm the odd one here
16:37	bbloom	it really should be "task vs data CONCURRENCY" :-P
16:37	noprompt	bbloom: so in the concurrency part, two processes may have started but are not necessarily both executing at the same time?
16:37	bbloom	noprompt: right
16:37	noprompt	parallelism is a special case of concurency?
16:37	SegFaultAX	noprompt: Precisely!
16:37	bbloom	noprompt: yup
16:37	ohpauleez	yes
16:37	ohpauleez	and here's the difference
16:37	SegFaultAX	noprompt: Where two or more processes can execute /at the exact same time/
16:37	bbloom	here's another example:
16:38	bbloom	let's say you're preparing dinner for your family and you're plating the food. you are the only person plating and you only have one serving spoon
16:38	noprompt	i just felt my mind expand a little :)
16:38	noprompt	love that feeling
16:38	bbloom	if you put the mashed potatoes on everyone's plates
16:38	bbloom	then you put the peas on everyone's plates
16:38	bbloom	you're plating concurrently
16:38	bbloom	if you're sister decides to help you, brings a second spoon
16:38	bbloom	and she starts plating people's peas while you plate the mashed potatoes
16:39	bbloom	then you are plating in parallel
16:39	noprompt	right because plating the potatoes and plating the peas are two separate processes but they're not happening at the same time
16:39	SegFaultAX	ohpauleez: I guess my argument is just that concurrency and parallelism are already abstract enough without introducing the specific execution strategy for each thread of execution (system thread or otherwise)
16:39	ohpauleez	SegFaultAX: Is there one task you're applying to lots of data (data parallelism), or is there one set of data your applying lots of different tasks to (task parallelism)
16:39	bbloom	noprompt: you got it
16:39	bbloom	so now task vs data
16:39	ohpauleez	Are you potentially doing more than one thing at the same time? (concurrency)
16:39	bbloom	serving potatoes and serving peas are two tasks
16:39	antares_	ohpauleez: sorry to interrupt a very interesting concurrency/parallelism discussion but have you seen my Q about starting a discussion about moving clojure-doc.org to docs.clojure.org?
16:40	SegFaultAX	ohpauleez: Task parallelism doesn't imply operating on the same data across multiple tasks.
16:40	SegFaultAX	ohpauleez: You can have different tasks operating on different data, for example.
16:40	bbloom	but you're spoon can carry many peas at once
16:40	noprompt	no i understand the part prior about starting A, stoping A, starting B, ...
16:40	antares_	ohpauleez: also, since I don't have access to clojure-dev, I am curious how much attention that will get from decision makers
16:40	noprompt	s/no/now
16:40	bbloom	that's sorta like "data parallelism" where you the same (or very similar) operation to a whole bunch of units of data of the same class all at once
16:40	ohpauleez	antares_: I'd definitely just hit up the Clojure ML - that'll have the most eyes on it
16:41	bbloom	there is a distinction between task parallelism and data parallelism not because they are inherently different in any way, but because they offer distinct and interesting concurrency strategies
16:41	ohpauleez	bbloom: YES! Good point
16:41	clojurebot	yes! and the hack is to do (->> blah #(foo % bar)), or use swiss-arrows
16:42	SegFaultAX	bbloom: I think the better analogy for that might be mashing the potatoes. Having 1 thread mashing the entire pot vs. sub dividing the pot and having multiple mashers going.
16:42	bbloom	SegFaultAX: heh, i think the food example breaks down for task v data
16:42	ohpauleez	I agree
16:42	SegFaultAX	Aww, I thought that was a good example!
16:42	SegFaultAX	(The mashing bit)
16:42	bbloom	it's as awkward as mine :-)
16:43	SegFaultAX	For task parallelism you could have 1 task adding salt to the taters, one adding butter, another milk, etc.
16:43	antares_	ohpauleez: ok, thank you
16:43	SegFaultAX	... No? Ok, I'm hungry now.
16:43	bbloom	mmm mashed potatoes
16:43	Bronsa	lol
16:43	ohpauleez	SegFaultAX: Salt is a good example actually
16:43	cemerick	Bodil: did I see you talking about porting clojure.test to cljs a few days ago?
16:44	SegFaultAX	ohpauleez: I was trying to make it work.
16:45	SegFaultAX	bbloom: I feel like you should capture this discussion into a blog post.
16:45	SegFaultAX	bbloom: You could probably use your kitchen analogy if you clean up the inconsistencies.
16:45	noprompt	so i guess the question left in my mind, is how do you ensure that each plate is never plated twice? or would you never run in to that problem?
16:46	ohpauleez	Are you handling more than one thing at the same time? (Concurrency) Are you actually doing multiple things at the same time? (parallelism) Are you doing the same operation, in parallel across a set of data? (data parallelism) Are you doing lots of different tasks across a single piece of data? (task parallelism)*
16:46	ohpauleez	You could also being doing lots of tasks on lots of small pieces of different data - also task parallelism
16:46	SegFaultAX	noprompt: Usually there is some other process coordinating the task.
16:46	ohpauleez	but that case is rarely considered
16:46	noprompt	would that be the parent process?
16:46	bbloom	SegFaultAX: it takes me forever to write blog posts.... & i feel like this is a well covered subject :-P will save my writing time for unique things
16:47	bbloom	noprompt: how do you and your sister keep from plating the same plate twice?
16:47	bbloom	noprompt: you communicate
16:47	bbloom	noprompt: either verbally
16:47	SegFaultAX	bbloom: Hah, well it's on the table if you change your mind. (See what I did there?)
16:47	bbloom	or via looking at the plates themselves
16:47	ohpauleez	this is a pretty solid analogy
16:47	noprompt	bbloom: you should consider writing this up, yes. you've definitely helped clear up my confusion.
16:48	ohpauleez	I use classrooms, classes, a school, and chalk boards usually
16:48	noprompt	SegFaultAX: you as well, thank you
16:48	SegFaultAX	(inc bbloom)
16:48	lazybot	⇒ 6
16:48	bbloom	heh, ok... i'll add it to the queue of posts to be written
16:48	SegFaultAX	(inc ohpauleez)
16:48	lazybot	⇒ 1
16:48	ohpauleez	Yes!
16:48	ohpauleez	ONE!
16:48	ohpauleez	:)
16:48	bbloom	i currently have 38 drafts lol
16:48	bbloom	most of the time, i write enough of an outline that i have some epiphany myself & then loose interest in the blost post
16:48	bbloom	lol typo: blost. i've invented a new word
16:49	ohpauleez	noprompt: For completeness, I'll give you another analogy that's common in papers and books
16:49	bbloom	web log -> blog ;; blog post -> blost
16:49	bbloom	i also have a good analogy regarding resource contention that involves ordering drinks at a bar :-)
16:49	noprompt	off topic, but every time i'm in this room i feel inspired to return to college
16:50	jcromartie	noprompt: hah
16:50	bbloom	noprompt: meh, you don't need college. just start a paper-reading club :-P
16:50	SegFaultAX	What's the term for comparisons of the form "foo is to bar as spam is to eggs"?
16:50	ohpauleez	Lots of students attend a school, and they all need to learn. The school has a master chalkboard that all the students see when they enter - the board is FULL of math problems to solve
16:50	amalloy	SegFaultAX: analogy
16:50	bbloom	heh.
16:50	bbloom	yes.
16:50	SegFaultAX	amalloy: I thought there was s epcial name.
16:51	jcromartie	how can I test if every value in a collection is unique?
16:51	noprompt	bbloom: yes, i've heard similar view points. i never finished my compsci education because i got bored.
16:51	jcromartie	I am doing (defn unique? [coll] (= (count coll) (count (set coll))))
16:51	ohpauleez	so the students one by one take a problem to do, and head to a classroom. Each classroom holds 6 students. And they begin working. They use the chalkboard in the classroom to share work, ideas, and communicate.
16:51	jcromartie	is that reasonable?
16:51	bbloom	jcromartie: seems reasonable to me
16:51	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Well now I feel like a dumbass.
16:51	amalloy	&(doc distinct?)
16:51	lazybot	⇒ "([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns true if no two of the arguments are ="
16:51	ohpauleez	as the students finish their work and solve their problems, the head back to the main school chalkboard, write their answer, and head home
16:52	noprompt	ohpauleez: i like that analogy as well, however it lacks the mashed potatoes
16:52	noprompt	:)
16:52	ohpauleez	:)
16:52	bbloom	jcromartie: yeah, you can apply distinct?
16:52	jcromartie	ah
16:52	bbloom	IMHO, there is severe lacking of mashed potatoes in computer science
16:53	bbloom	fuck peas tho. they pretty much only exist to make your cream sauces have some fancy green bits in them
16:54	noprompt	bbloom: i plan to start reading more papers soon, along with implementing your red marker technique
16:54	jcromartie	then a better name would be all-distinct?
16:54	bbloom	noprompt: it's a solid approach :-)
16:54	noprompt	my gf and are splitting up so, yeah, more time for that
16:54	brehaut	bbloom: also to create pea puree for master chef challenges
16:54	gfredericks	so clojure.java.jdbc/transaction -- should it rollback on arbitrary throwables rather than just Exceptions?
16:54	ohpauleez	noprompt: The students use the main chalkboard to make sure no one takes the same problem, and that all the answers get written down somewhere. The classrooms allow students to work in little batches, communicating efficiently with each other (imagine the alternative - screaming in an gym full of all the students) The problems are solved in parallel because all the students are working at the same time.
16:54	noprompt	brehaut: the python discussion did not go as well, or as bad, as i had thought it would
16:55	brehaut	noprompt: just 'meh' ?
16:55	noprompt	ohpauleez: very nice
16:55	jcromartie	ohpauleez: is this a real school, or is it a contrived concurrency problem?
16:55	ohpauleez	noprompt: And that's "exactly" how a GPU works
16:56	ohpauleez	global memory (the school chalkboard), local memory (the classroom chalkboard), private memory (the students paper)
16:56	ohpauleez	and the classrooms are Processing Units
16:56	noprompt	brehaut: he coped out with the whole "every language has it's warts" bit i've heard time and time again from folks who get scured of learning an lang like cli or hs
16:56	ohpauleez	jcromartie: Just an example
16:56	noprompt	s/cli/clj
16:57	brehaut	re:blackboards http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuple_space
16:57	jcromartie	I thought maybe you worked for an efficient collaborative school
16:57	brehaut	noprompt: tis both right and a cop out for sure
16:57	noprompt	brehaut: in short he doesn't want to use clojure because he doesn't think there's a significant gain
16:57	SegFaultAX	amalloy: I guess I was thinking of the form "A : B :: C : D" which is called Aristotelian format, eg the format used on SAT's.
16:58	brehaut	noprompt: thats the blub paradox in action
16:58	noprompt	brehaut: but since he's unwilling to even consider the language...
16:58	brehaut	noprompt: tbh thats what i would expect from some who described as a 'Hardcore X user'
16:59	jcromartie	if you ever meed a self-described "PHP guy", run
16:59	jcromartie	just run
16:59	noprompt	brehaut: indeed
16:59	ohpauleez	ok, so now noprompt, do you feel like you've got it?
16:59	noprompt	jcromartie: plenty of those people in my town, sad to say i can't convince that php is shit pancake either
16:59	ohpauleez	two and half examples, a handful of terms
17:00	brehaut	jcromartie: that applies to most martyrs ;)
17:00	TimMc	$google php fractal bad design
17:00	lazybot	[PHP: a fractal of bad design - fuzzy notepad] http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
17:00	noprompt	jcromartie: my favorite response from PHP debs when you tell them it's an ass language: "well it pays my bills"
17:00	noprompt	s/debs/devs fucking autocorrect
17:00	brehaut	clojurebot: php is http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
17:00	clojurebot	Alles klar
17:00	ohpauleez	noprompt: Tell them to honestly read: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
17:01	ohpauleez	damn you brehaut and clojurebot
17:01	ohpauleez	haha
17:01	jcromartie	To be honest, PHP is where I got started in web dev, though. It took a while to un-learn it.
17:01	noprompt	ohpauleez: i also like the double clawed hammer post
17:01	brehaut	noprompt: thats the only reason to use PHP. totally legit reason.
17:01	jcromartie	but that was like, high school
17:01	ohpauleez	Selling crack can pay the bills too
17:01	TimMc	noprompt: THat's the one, actually.
17:01	ivan	that page brings out the dunning-kruger in the PHP developer: "why do you care about these things?"
17:01	bbloom	i've also heard "facebook uses it"
17:01	bbloom	argh
17:01	ohpauleez	but I don't sell crack
17:02	ohpauleez	bbloom: That's the worst
17:02	bbloom	i generally respond "and they deeply regret it"
17:02	ohpauleez	I get violent when I hear that
17:02	bbloom	haha
17:02	noprompt	someone needs to give php the coffeescipt treatment or something
17:02	ohpauleez	haha
17:02	TimMc	http://phpsadness.com/ is pretty good too.
17:02	ivan	there are languages that compile to PHP
17:02	noprompt	that url is priceless
17:03	noprompt	sad to say i've turned down contract work purely because it was php
17:03	TimMc	THat's very understandable.
17:03	hashbang1	bbloom: yeah, i love that argument. they also had to write hiphop just to keep it usable
17:03	hyPiRion	that was for performance reasons though
17:03	TimMc	noprompt: "Sad to say, I've turned down construction jobs because I would have been required to use rocks and floss."
17:04	bbloom	hashbang1: from what i'm told, PHP can be safely described as Facebook's server side templating language
17:04	bbloom	since everything else has become a hodge podge of internal services
17:04	brehaut	ohpauleez, TimMc: Marco Arment (instapaper, and formerly tumblr) is a PHP user who both read that fractal article and acknowledged it to be a pile of ass, and continues to use it.
17:04	bbloom	brehaut: yeah, there is something to be said for "gets the fucking job done"
17:04	ivan	http://scriptor.github.com/pharen/
17:05	TimMc	PHP is very effective for getting the first few pages done. (If you don't mind exploits and stuff...)
17:05	brehaut	bbloom: i certainly cant argue with his results
17:05	brehaut	im trying to find marco talking about the article, but it might have been on a podcast
17:05	hyPiRion	There's a difference between "getting stuff done" and "dying because of complexity due to bad design" though
17:06	Apage43	some time ago I wrote -waaaay- too much PHP. (Which incidentally is great if you want to break PHP sites, because you learn all the mistakes in a first-hand way)
17:06	jcromartie	this is what's wrong with PHP http://php.net/quickref.php
17:06	Apage43	nowadays I can't really "think in PHP" enough to read PHP code well
17:07	bbloom	hyPiRion: yeah, which is why i feel that Rails has 100% replaced every PHP use case of value with exactly one exception: brain dead deployment
17:07	bbloom	jcromartie: lol yeah, cmd+f is quick!
17:07	bbloom	:-P
17:08	noprompt	i've noticed that the guys that use the "get the job done" argument have a hard time recognizing the complexity point of view
17:08	jcromartie	from what I can gather, there are ~4600 PHP functions in a single global namespace
17:08	bbloom	it's simply chaos theory & evolution
17:08	brehaut	bbloom: rails etc have a side disadvantage there; PHP basically dictates a lifecycle model, but with rails etc you have to take some responsibility for those decisions
17:09	bbloom	brehaut: yeah, hence the exception for it
17:09	brehaut	noprompt: thats the blub paradox in action again
17:09	jcromartie	people complain about clojure.core's admittedly massive 580 vars
17:09	pocho	My REPL in counterclockwise prints out "NullPointerException clojure.lang.Numbers.ops (Numbers.java:942)" How do I get better information.
17:09	bbloom	but the bottom line is that software is really fucking complex and, yet, survival of the fittest plus iteration == successful software
17:09	bbloom	it also equals tons of crap software
17:09	jcromartie	pocho: (pst)
17:10	jcromartie	(print stack trace)
17:10	pocho	thanks
17:10	bbloom	jcromartie: i wonder if there is a way to get a count of builtins in Mathematica....
17:11	noprompt	it's all just a great big pile of hacks.
17:11	jcromartie	bbloom "over 3000"
17:11	jcromartie	http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/AlphabeticalListing.html
17:11	bbloom	heh
17:11	bbloom	madness.
17:12	bbloom	i've been really enjoying playing with mathematica tho
17:12	noprompt	in all fairness though, php wasn't originally purposed to do the things it does now, as we all know
17:12	bbloom	i kinda wish i had a symbolic prepositional order logic available to my clojure code :-)
17:12	jcromartie	about 3500
17:12	hyPiRion	It's not really madness to have many functions in the same namespace though.
17:13	noprompt	hyPiRion: i tend to agree
17:13	hyPiRion	Well, not necessarily at least.
17:13	noprompt	hyPiRion: all though i try to avoid that in my own
17:13	bbloom	hyPiRion: only because they've done a good job of disambiguating with long names
17:13	noprompt	s/all though/although ughh cannot type today
17:13	jcromartie	the thing that might have saved PHP's reputation would have been avoiding the single global namespace
17:13	bbloom	hyPiRion: but also b/c they take the point of view that there is ONE set of semantics
17:14	noprompt	jcromartie: that and separating the templating
17:14	jcromartie	noprompt: but that was the whole appeal
17:14	noprompt	jcromartie: it's funny how you can stick arbitrary html right in the middle of a class definition
17:14	jcromartie	noprompt: one file, everything in one place
17:14	bbloom	jcromartie: Length[Names[]] returns 25,418
17:15	jcromartie	bbloom: dear god… but are those all documented?
17:15	TimMc	,(count (ns-publics 'clojure.core))
17:15	clojurebot	593
17:15	ivan	is it reasonable to feed all REPL output through pprint or fipp to avoid O(N^2) Emacs word-wrapping speeds, or are there even more problems with pprint/fipp?
17:15	jcromartie	,clojure-version
17:15	clojurebot	{:major 1, :minor 5, :incremental 0, :qualifier "RC6"}
17:15	jcromartie	hm
17:15	bbloom	jcromartie: well many (most?) of them are just names for symbols
17:15	gfredericks	(sql/transaction (insert-records ...) (assert false)) commits the transaction
17:15	jcromartie	I'm on 1.4
17:15	TimMc	&[(clojure-version) (count (ns-publics 'clojure.core))]
17:15	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! ns-publics is bad!
17:16	TimMc	D-:
17:16	bbloom	FullForm[First[Names[]]] is "\[FormalA\]"
17:16	jcromartie	gfredericks: that's a problem, eh
17:16	gfredericks	jcromartie: yeah it's screwed me up a couple times already
17:16	bbloom	or \[FormalA] rather
17:16	jcromartie	gfredericks: oh, I know why! because assert doesn't produce an Exception, it's an Error
17:16	jcromartie	a silly distinction
17:16	jcromartie	but I've basically stopped using assert for that reason
17:16	gfredericks	jcromartie: yep
17:17	bbloom	jcromartie: just catch Throwable :-)
17:17	gfredericks	jcromartie: in my case it was an OOM exception
17:17	gfredericks	bbloom: we have to patch java.jdbc to do that
17:17	jcromartie	bbloom: the problem is that other libraries already don't "just catch Throwable" and they need to be fixed
17:17	jcromartie	in fact, it's time for some pull requests
17:17	gfredericks	I'm filing a jira ticket right now
17:18	bbloom	i hope in clojure 1.6 we can get catch to be rebranded as an interop form & then move to the non-type-switching semantics of javascript
17:18	bbloom	javascript has `catch (e) {` instead of `catch (Exception e) {`
17:18	noprompt	someone mentioned clojure-docs is moving?
17:20	bbloom	noprompt: there is now http://clojure-doc.org/ too
17:20	bbloom	annoyingly similarly named
17:21	noprompt	well that's helpful
17:21	jcromartie	oh look bootstrap
17:21	rasmusto	jcromartie: haha, I was going to mention that
17:22	noprompt	jcromartie: don't even get me start.
17:22	technomancy	bootstrap: boring, but at least it's not ugly
17:22	jcromartie	yeah, most clients have never seen a web app that looks half as good as Bootstrap, so it's useful
17:22	noprompt	technomancy: it's superior to the user agent stylesheet that's for sure.
17:22	danielglauser	bbloom: noprompt: I believe the long term plan is to develop clojure-doc.org to the point where it encompasses clojuredocs.org then replace it
17:22	jcromartie	but I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS run into near-insurmountable conflicts
17:23	technomancy	I'm sure they wouldn't turn down a pull request with a nice custom design
17:23	noprompt	bootstrap is especially nice though for developers who have no design sense
17:23	brehaut	technomancy: on the other hand, you'd want to be sure it was what they considered a nice custom design before you commited the many hours it would take to actually do it
17:24	TimMc	"What do you mean you don't like yellow on pink?"
17:24	technomancy	<blink>
17:24	rasmusto	I have a q: why doesn't (into {}) work on seqs of seqs, does the length of each item need to be known to ensure it's 2?
17:25	brehaut	TimMc: orange on yellow. its the way of the future
17:25	TimMc	technomancy: C'mon, that's not even standards compliant, is it? #doc-view-langs-body li {
17:25	TimMc	blah
17:25	TimMc	... text-decoration: blink is what you want
17:27	technomancy	the wave of the future
17:28	brehaut	wait really, its 'wave' not 'way'?
17:28	clizzin	is it possible for leiningen to run my application with a certain set of command-line arguments (aliased using :aliases in project.clj), but then also expose a repl server to connect to?
17:29	technomancy	brehaut: http://cn1.kaboodle.com/hi/img/a/0/0/c/2/AAAACvH3OhUAAAAAAAwpCA.jpg?v=1156771677000
17:30	brehaut	technomancy: lol
17:30	rasmusto	technomancy: that hash @_@
17:30	technomancy	clizzin: you can start an nrepl server from within your -main defn, or you could try something with lein-pdo
17:32	clizzin	technomancy: my main class has to be java (for sad sad reasons), so starting an nrepl server within is probably not an option. i'll check out lein-pdo. the use case is to start the app, then connect to it so i can recompile code just like in my usual clojure dev process, hopefully pdo can help with that
17:32	gfredericks	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/JDBC-47
17:33	brehaut	clizzin: http://skillsmatter.com/podcast/scala/impromptu-rich-hickey-lightning-talk
17:33	clizzin	brehaut: ?
17:34	Bodil	cemerick: I was looking into producing a test framework for Cljs, at least - not a straight port of clojure.test.
17:34	brehaut	clizzin: rich hickey shows how to make java code that wraps up clojure code for when you need a java class as the front end of an api
17:34	clizzin	brehaut: gotcha. thanks!
17:35	Bodil	cemerick: Btw, I had a go at porting cljs-noderepl to Phantom, but Phantom's API is just too inadequate at this point...
17:36	noprompt	will the clojure-doc apps ever be written in clojure?
17:36	clizzin	brehaut: ahhh, but there's more to the java craziness than just the fact that it's java. i have to code against a framework that always relies on a certain class to be the main class, and then it loads a bunch of modules to run actual interesting code. kind of cool, but makes it difficult to just 'stick something in the main function' — even arbitrary java code would be awkward to add, not just clojure code
17:36	technomancy	noprompt: as soon as someone volunteers to write the HTML frontend for it
17:37	technomancy	the JSON API is already written in clojure
17:37	noprompt	technomancy: what do you mean by "HTML frontend"?
17:38	technomancy	noprompt: a user interface which serves up HTML?
17:39	noprompt	wait, i'm confused. which one are we talking about? clojure-doc or clojure-docs?
17:39	technomancy	oh, I mean clojuredocs
17:39	technomancy	clojure-doc.org right now is just static HTML; doing that in Clojure would be silly
17:39	noprompt	technomancy: that makes sense
17:40	noprompt	technomancy: so which is the project that needs help?
17:41	technomancy	clojuredocs.org can move off rails if someone writes an HTML frontend
17:41	cemerick	Bodil: I started poking at it a bit last night; I think there might be a way to reuse the phantom REPL without getting tied in knots re: return types, etc.
17:45	Bodil	cemerick: I got as far as something speaking the cljs-noderepl protocol (essentially JSON) using a straight eval, but I couldn't get the processes talking to each other, so I gave up. fwiw, here's the Phantom side code: https://www.refheap.com/paste/11849
17:46	noprompt	technomancy: so if i'm understanding this correctly, it's just writing flat html?
17:47	cemerick	Bodil: Thanks; I'll see if I can cook something up. I can't cope with rhino anymore, can't reasonably use JDK8, and need a DOM. So... :-)
17:47	hiredman	cemerick: just like you needed a pom?
17:47	hiredman	zing
17:48	cemerick	hey-o!
17:50	noprompt	technomancy: i guess i'd be happy to help. has anyone started on it?
17:50	technomancy	noprompt: not the HTML part; dakrone was looking for volunteers last I checked
17:50	Bodil	cemerick: Worst case, there's always Node and https://github.com/tmpvar/jsdom
17:51	noprompt	sure i could spare a few hours a week to help if it can move the needle forward.
17:52	bbloom	dnolen: i finally think i have a strong enough foundational understanding of logic to really dig into core.logic... i've been reading wikipedia for like 3 days, heh
17:52	cemerick	Bodil: Perhaps. I'm blissfully ignorant of node, and hope to stay that way. Plus, I figure between phantomjs and figuring out whatever XUL madness will be needed for headless moz, I can have some confidence that test results actually correspond to users' browsers, etc.
17:54	dnolen	bbloom: hehe, it's not clear to me just how much understanding of first order logic helps understanding a Prolog-like system
17:54	bbloom	dnolen: it's mostly terminology, historical context, motivation, etc
17:55	Bodil	cemerick: Well... having done a fair bit of JS-on-QtWebkit dev, I wouldn't trust Phantom to correspond to Chrome or Safari, but at least it'd be much closer than jsdom's emulation. Also, it can generate screenshots. :)
17:55	dnolen	bbloom: yes, my grasp of that stuff is still pretty poor. Art of Prolog is a good resource as far as that goes it seems
17:56	bbloom	dnolen: as discussed: i'm interested in predicate dispatch, but i think it should have an underlying a predicate logic sublanguage... mainly b/c i'm gonna want slightly different syntax and semantics than a more general predicate dispatch system
17:57	bbloom	i saw that there is such a thing in the minikaren paper & that there is an impl on core.logic, but i'm not to that level of understanding yet :-)
17:57	bbloom	dnolen: also, relations make me want binary operators instead of prefix notation :-/
17:59	clizzin	hmm lein-pdo doesn't do what i want because the repl and app run as separate processes :( cc technomancy, brehaut fyi
17:59	dnolen	bbloom: you saw a predicate dispatch ref in the miniKanren paper? I don't recall that.
17:59	bbloom	dnolen: no, predicate logic
17:59	bbloom	dnolen: https://github.com/namin/leanTAP
17:59	dnolen	bbloom: oops, heh yes
17:59	technomancy	clizzin: oh yeah; hm. maybe start a repl, then do `lein run` using :eval-in :nrepl, but that requires using lein master
18:03	cemerick	Bodil: anything to keep me out of the browser variation funhouse as much as possible :-)
18:17	dnolen	hopefully closing in on zero-overhead invocation for non-native IFn types http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/9e360428682659f8882ad0e9e0ba804f7a509d32
18:17	dnolen	for CLJS
18:17	ohpauleez	dnolen: wooo!
18:17	dnolen	ohpauleez: we can't fix generic code over course, code that accepts JS fns
18:18	ohpauleez	sure
18:18	dnolen	ohpauleez: but it does mean if you know you're only going to use CLJS fns (which you can specify w/ the ^non-native type-hint), you won't pay.
18:18	ohpauleez	dnolen: This is really great stuff
18:21	dnolen	this also means that deftypes / records that implement IFn could be significantly faster when using ClojureScript data structures as functions.
18:21	dnolen	if that's in place then more inference in the compiler could really pay off.
18:22	noprompt	are there any serious design flaws in clojure (looking for an honest answer, not trolling, etc)?
18:23	ohpauleez	noprompt: with regards to what?
18:23	brehaut	noprompt: depends who you ask ;)
18:23	brehaut	noprompt: ask a haskell and scala guy, and they'll point to the lack of a static type system
18:23	TimMc	Huh, https://wiki.theory.org/YourLanguageSucks doesn't have a Clojure entry.
18:24	brehaut	TimMc: php has quite a short list
18:24	noprompt	brehaut: ohpauleez: i'm thinking in the context of our discussion on php
18:24	TimMc	noprompt: Off the top of my head, macros that emit references to private vars in their namespace will cause compile errors.
18:25	brehaut	quirky reloading behaviour for multis and protocols
18:25	ohpauleez	noprompt: After seeing how CLJS was implemented (after the creation/addition of protocols), one might argue that Clojure's implementation could be "better"
18:25	TimMc	There's some JVM-based shittiness around hashing of numeric types.
18:25	brehaut	and anything multiple classloaders related
18:26	bbloom	ohpauleez: agreed. we need protocols for the core abstractions on the JVM
18:26	dnolen	there's lots to complain about Clojure - which as they saying goes - means people actually use it
18:26	ohpauleez	noprompt: Exceptions are a mess and the community is still figuring out how to best tackle that. There are two types of naming for Clojure functions. Two words separated with a dash (Common Lisp style) and two words smashed together (Clojure/Python/Ruby style)
18:26	bbloom	noprompt: they primitives (do, let, loop, recur, etc) should have been namespaced!
18:27	ohpauleez	if the function is found in common lisp, it uses a dash in Clojure, otherwise it doesn't
18:28	bbloom	ohpauleez: shrug it took me a while, but i've finally gotten over extreme naming consistency, particularly for builtins and other things you use a lot
18:28	ohpauleez	All of that said, Clojure (and especially CLJS) fix a lot of issues and inconsistencies with their platforms
18:28	bbloom	i disagree w/ paul graham about short names always being better, but for shit you use ALL THE TIME, i'm A-OK with it
18:28	ohpauleez	bbloom: Oh totally, I have no issue with it at all
18:28	noprompt	bbloom: of the same mind
18:28	brehaut	realized?
18:28	brehaut	,(realized? (iterate 1 inc))
18:28	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPending>
18:29	TimMc	noprompt: You can try wading through very old tickets on JIRA if you want to find some more.
18:29	bbloom	i also kinda like how .javaismsMakeThemselvesKnown WithObvious. MarkingsOf/SORTS
18:29	ohpauleez	I don't care much about names - we all have auto-complete, we all have an interactive environment, docs are easy to get through
18:29	noprompt	ohpauleez: +1
18:29	TimMc	I still don't use autocomplete with Clojure.
18:29	TimMc	I really should.
18:29	bbloom	the different-ness makes me less likely to eliminate java-isms for the sake of eliminating java-isms. if they were closer, i'd be annoyed about that last 10% :-)
18:30	bbloom	i haven't used auto complete for anything in nearly 5 years
18:30	ohpauleez	TimMc: most certainly
18:30	brehaut	bbloom: i agree with that
18:30	ohpauleez	bbloom: Not even ctrl-n?
18:30	noprompt	i'm still in the "honeymoon" phase of using clojure so i haven't bumped in to some of these issues
18:31	bbloom	ohpauleez: extremely rarely.... i only ever use it when i have mispelled something 4 times & i want to preemptively spell check myself
18:31	ohpauleez	noprompt: There's a talk by Chas Emerick about "Clojure Sucks and why you'll love it anyway
18:31	ohpauleez	"
18:31	ohpauleez	bbloom: You're potentially a faster typer than me, and don't make as many spelling mistakes :)
18:32	noprompt	my stress level is usually pretty low while using clojure, but if i'm going to have discussions with programmers about why X language has a bad design, in fairness i feel i should be able to point out clojure flaws as well
18:32	bbloom	ohpauleez: i switched to vim full time roughly around the same time that i switched to mac roughly around the same time i switched to a kensis contoured keyboard roughly around the same time i learned to touch type roughly around the time i gave up on auto complete :-)
18:32	noprompt	i've been using a plugin called "you complete me" for vim that has been very nice
18:33	brehaut	noprompt: amusingly, some of the flaws are in things that you just couldnt do in other languages
18:33	amalloy	i wonder if i could get my pen to tab-complete for the rare occasions i can't use a keyboard
18:33	bbloom	i find auto complete & other as-you-type UI/UX to be distracting. i'd much prefer all that stuff be delayed until i stop typing for a second or two
18:34	TimMc	Oh, auto-complete vs. tab-complete... good point. The latter is good, the former sucks.
18:34	ohpauleez	noprompt: I'm not sure who said it - but there's a quote, "Most languages focus on getting the smaller consistencies right - like function naming - and miss on tackling the larger, harder issues. Clojure focused on solving the larger, harder issues - like concurrency - and didn't favor naming consistency as much
18:34	noprompt	bbloom: the color scheme i use keeps that distraction at a minimum
18:35	ohpauleez	bbloom: I never do -as-I-type, I think it's super distracting too - but I use ctrl-n, ctrl-o
18:35	noprompt	bbloom: but i can see how it could get distracting
18:35	noprompt	ohpauleez: i don't like having to hit more than one button at a time if i can avoid it
18:35	brehaut	noprompt: theres certainly nothing in clojure like wtf did python do to scoping rules :P
18:35	noprompt	ohpauleez: which is why i've failed at emacs so many times
18:36	noprompt	i'm jealous of emacs though
18:36	noprompt	well, some parts of it anyway
18:36	bbloom	noprompt: sometimes i wish i could disable syntax highlighting for the line i'm currently editing
18:36	noprompt	brehaut: that's sort of what i was looking for
18:36	bbloom	b/c if i mistype a builtin or something & the syntax highlighting doesn't show up right, i fix the typo and then FORGET WHAT I WAS FUCKING TYPING
18:36	noprompt	bbloom: i think you might be able to do that
18:37	bbloom	my thought process is exceedingly fragile sometimes :-P
18:37	noprompt	bbloom: you may have to tweak the highlighting rule for cursorline which i think you can
18:38	bbloom	noprompt: eh, i avoid VimL as much as i can :-P
18:38	noprompt	bbloom: yes it's disgusting
18:38	bbloom	i just assume tpope knows what's best for me
18:38	noprompt	bbloom: still working on it https://github.com/noprompt/lite-brite/blob/master/colors/lite-brite.vim
18:41	noprompt	bbloom: this should do it :hi CursorLine guibg=NONE guifg=#ffffff
18:41	noprompt	then use :set cursorline
18:42	noprompt	obviously if you use vim in the terminal you'll need need to set ctermfg and ctermbg respectively
18:42	bbloom	noprompt: you assume i use a dark terminal :-P i don't heh
18:42	noprompt	bbloom: sure, that's just the basic idea
18:42	bbloom	noprompt: i know, thx
18:42	noprompt	bbloom: do you know your terminal bg color?
18:42	bbloom	white.
18:42	bbloom	:-P
18:43	noprompt	bbloom: well that one's easy then!
18:43	noprompt	:hi CursorLine ctermbg=15 ctermfg=0
18:43	noprompt	you could toss that in your .vimrc should work out if you don't switch your theme
18:44	bbloom	thx i'll try it out a bit later
18:44	noprompt	bbloom: i like to think i know a bit about color scheming in vim :)
18:45	noprompt	doug crock ford had a neat concept about context sensitive highlighting
18:45	noprompt	scoped highlighting
18:45	noprompt	not sure how you could pull that off in vim though
18:47	noprompt	bbloom: do you use vimclojure?
18:47	bbloom	no, tpope/vim-foreplay
18:48	noprompt	does that one let you start a repl inside vim?
18:49	bbloom	noprompt: it lets you evaluate forms & stores an evaluation log a-la the macro log, but there is no terminal emulation or anything like that
18:49	noprompt	darn
18:49	bbloom	noprompt: nah, i prefer it this way
18:50	bbloom	cmd+tab lets me get to a real repl running in the same JVM anyway
18:50	noprompt	maybe i'll give it another shot
18:50	noprompt	i really like vimclojure but there are a few things that annoy me about it
18:50	noprompt	the biggest one being the way it seems to fuck up copy/paste
18:51	ivan	http://userscripts.org/scripts/review/108797 javadoc sanity restored
18:52	noprompt	what's the doc style for clojure?
18:54	Raynes	Two quotes and text between them.
18:55	noprompt	Raynes: nice :)
18:55	bbloom	"This is a string that is useful and not redundant and doesn't treat me like a 5 year old, but still helps me in a meaningful way"
18:56	noprompt	so clojure doesn't have a javadoc equivalent?
18:56	noprompt	or yardoc or whatever
18:56	bbloom	##(doc doc)
18:56	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([s]); "
18:56	technomancy	noprompt: you can generate HTML documentation, but it's not nearly as useful
18:56	bbloom	(doc doc)
18:56	clojurebot	"([name]); Prints documentation for a var or special form given its name"
18:57	bbloom	(doc source)
18:57	technomancy	since you have everything available in the repl
18:57	Raynes	https://github.com/weavejester/codox, https://github.com/tomfaulhaber/autodoc, https://github.com/fogus/marginalia
18:57	bbloom	(doc source) ; i said dammti!
18:57	Raynes	&(doc clojure.repl/doc)
18:57	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([name]); Prints documentation for a var or special form given its name"
18:57	Raynes	bbloom: lrn2clj
18:57	hiredman	,source
18:57	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.repl/source, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:57	hiredman	,(doc source)
18:57	clojurebot	"([n]); Prints the source code for the given symbol, if it can find it. This requires that the symbol resolve to a Var defined in a namespace for which the .clj is in the classpath. Example: (source filter)"
18:57	bbloom	Raynes: i can't read or write
18:57	hiredman	hmmm
18:58	Raynes	bbloom: I can teach you.
19:00	noprompt	marginalia looks nice
19:03	TimMc	technomancy: (doc ...) is useful if you already know what you want.
19:03	TimMc	HTML docs are good for getting an overview.
19:03	bbloom	TimMc: overviews are good for overviews
19:04	bbloom	TimMc: by that i mean prose & exposition
19:04	bbloom	TimMc: if you need a reference, use doc or look at the source :-)
19:04	amalloy	bbloom: your (doc source) attempts were failing because you had inserted a U+007F character before the ( character
19:04	bbloom	amalloy: how the hell did i do that?
19:04	amalloy	shrug
19:04	bbloom	that's what? a delete?
19:05	amalloy	yes
19:05	bbloom	(doc inc)
19:05	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns a number one greater than num. Does not auto-promote longs, will throw on overflow. See also: inc'"
19:05	bbloom	(doc inc)
19:05	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns a number one greater than num. Does not auto-promote longs, will throw on overflow. See also: inc'"
19:05	bbloom	(doc inc)
19:05	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns a number one greater than num. Does not auto-promote longs, will throw on overflow. See also: inc'"
19:05	bbloom	yeah, i can't repro that
19:06	muhoo	http://clojure-doc.org/ is 504?
19:06	SegFaultAX	muhoo: clojuredocs.org?
19:07	SegFaultAX	clojure-doc.org works for me. http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/clojure-doc.org
19:15	noprompt	anyone going to clojure west?
19:15	patchwork	Alright, for json: cheshire or data.json?
19:16	bbloom	noprompt: lots of smart folks! sign up
19:16	technomancy	cheshire
19:16	patchwork	pros/cons?
19:16	noprompt	patchwork: i like data.json
19:16	noprompt	patchwork: but haven't used the other
19:16	brehaut	patchwork: from memory cheshire is really fast
19:16	technomancy	cheshire uses jackson, which has seen a lot more use. plus its maintainer is super-responsive
19:16	technomancy	and you don't have to use jira to contribute
19:16	noprompt	bbloom: went to w3conf last week. it was fun, but not exactly mind expanding.
19:17	patchwork	I definitely need speed, thanks guys! Cheshire it is
19:17	noprompt	bbloom: clojure west looks like the ticket.
19:17	bbloom	noprompt: i'm not much of a conference or meetups sort of guy, but everyone i meet involved with clojure is awesome
19:17	bbloom	i'm speaking at clojure/west too :-)
19:17	Frozenlock	Would `(into #{} ...) be the idiomatic way of getting a coll without duplicates?
19:17	noprompt	bbloom: in that case i'm sold, ha!
19:17	bbloom	Frozenlock: ##(set [1 1 2 3 3])
19:17	lazybot	⇒ #{1 2 3}
19:17	brehaut	,(distinct [1 1 2 3 4 4)
19:17	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
19:18	brehaut	,(distinct [1 1 2 3 4 4])
19:18	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
19:18	bbloom	however:
19:18	bbloom	,(distinct [1 2 1 2])
19:18	clojurebot	(1 2)
19:18	bbloom	oh nevermind
19:18	bbloom	set vs seq
19:18	bbloom	i thought distinct only worked on sorted data, my bad
19:18	brehaut	Frozenlock: it depends if you need the resulting collection to hang about and have more potential duplicates added to it
19:20	Frozenlock	Ah! Can't believe I forgot about `distinct'.
19:20	Frozenlock	No this should be created and used as is.
19:20	Frozenlock	However if I use a set, I could reduce it...
19:21	brehaut	Frozenlock, bbloom: distinct uses a set underneath, so i guess only use distinct if you need to maintain ordering or handle an infinite stream?
19:21	bbloom	brehaut: well, if it's an infinite stream, you better hope it's elements are of a finite domain :-)
19:22	brehaut	bbloom: indeed :)
19:22	bbloom	i use sets a lot in clojure
19:22	bbloom	i quite like them
19:22	brehaut	likewise; sets are great to have
19:23	brehaut	i was always surprised it took dotnet so long to get a real set collection
19:24	rabbit_airstrike	As a Portland resident, I'm looking forward to clojure/west :)
19:24	bbloom	brehaut: i just checked MSDN. holy hell! 4.0? for ISet? seriously!? wow
19:24	brehaut	i know! bananas eh
19:25	bbloom	brehaut: well apparently HashSet<T> was in 3.5
19:25	brehaut	thats really not much better
19:26	bbloom	brehaut: oh, you know why.... IList has a Contains function
19:26	bbloom	there was like UniqueList or something that was really a set
19:26	brehaut	bbloom: roffles
19:27	brehaut	bbloom: and everyone else just faked it with a map<T,Bool>
19:27	bbloom	yeah, interfaces are vastly inferior compared to type classes aka protocols aka golang interfaces aka ad hoc polymorphism aka not broken abstraction model
19:27	brehaut	definately
19:28	bbloom	i really like the idea that the fundamental defition of a collection is reducibility, instead of traversability
19:28	brehaut	im a bit torn about whether i prefer typeclasses or protocols. the former is way more expressive, but it lets some really squirrel resolution occur
19:28	bbloom	brehaut: more expressive in what way?
19:29	bbloom	(side note: i have written more ReadOnlyCollection wrappers than I care to admit)
19:29	brehaut	bbloom: haskell lets you write some remarkably complex abstract types for typeclasses; two abstract types with different implementations of the same typeclass can exist for the same concrete type
19:30	bbloom	brehaut: oh yeah, but that's pretty much just delegation. you can write a macro to do that :-P
19:32	brehaut	bbloom: oh sure, you can fake it out (pretty much like typeclasses do anyway) but the fundamental restriction of protocols to act on a single type (that isnt abstracted over other types) makes it much easier to reason about
19:34	brehaut	(where 'fake' wrt it comes to macros is not really that fake)
19:55	tyler_	foo is to function as (foo) is to what?
19:55	bbloom	tyler_: a function invocation
19:55	bbloom	tyler_: or a "call site"
19:55	tyler_	bbloom: thnx
19:55	bbloom	tyler_: or "function application"
19:56	tyler_	i like functional application
19:56	tyler_	kinda rolls off the tongue
19:56	tyler_	s/functional/function/
19:56	bbloom	usage of those terms tends to vary on context & connotation
19:57	Oddman	call site reminds me of call centers
19:58	brehaut	bbloom: ive not heard call site used outside of talking about language implementations.
19:59	bbloom	brehaut: shrug "call site" is useful for explicitly differentiating from declaration sites :-)
19:59	brehaut	sure. i was just curious if it was more general than i realised
20:00	dnolen	hrm
20:00	dnolen	I take it most CLJS users find it convenient that CLJS fns are regular JS fns \cc ibdknox
20:01	bbloom	dnolen: as opposed to objects with an invoke method?
20:01	dnolen	bbloom: yeah
20:02	dnolen	bbloom: I think any optimization I might have in mind are foiled by RestFns
20:02	bbloom	dnolen: it's definitely convenient to be able to pass a function to 3rd party code without having to marshall it
20:02	noprompt	dnolen: yes i like that
20:02	bbloom	dnolen: basically any code that hooks dom events is gonna be in that boat
20:02	dnolen	bbloom: yep
20:03	dnolen	so I'm not sure if we can actually optimize CLJS fns because of the rest argument case
20:03	noprompt	dnolen: my biggest gripe is (array) vs [] (js-obj) vs {}, however it's not a that big of a deal
20:04	noprompt	dnolen: i'm sure that design is intentional and with good reason
20:04	noprompt	i have no problem using clj->js
20:04	bbloom	noprompt: javascript arrays and objects are mutable, clojurescript vectors and maps are not
20:04	dnolen	noprompt: by design
20:04	hiredman	dnolen: can't you do something like what AFn does?
20:05	hiredman	maybe you already do, I am not up to date
20:06	noprompt	the cljs code tends to look a little awkward with things like angularjs
20:06	dnolen	hiredman: yeah we could could build a proper AFn/IFn/RestFn type/protocol, which is what I had in mind. The problem is you can't pass that to JS libs.
20:06	noprompt	in a way i feel like that's what stateful code actually looks like - ugly
20:06	hiredman	generate a generic function that dispatches to function$arity and for known native cljs functions call function$arity directly?
20:07	dnolen	hiredman: yeah we already do something like that, the issue is in the case of (reduce f ...)
20:07	dnolen	we don't know if f is native or not
20:07	dnolen	so we can't optimize it
20:07	dnolen	assume we know it's not native
20:08	dnolen	we still don't know if it's rest fn or not
20:08	dnolen	we could provide a RestFn type but then, RestFns can't interop w/ JS
20:09	hiredman	hmmm
20:10	hiredman	and you cannot cover every possible arity there hmmm
20:10	dnolen	hiredman: yeah
20:10	dnolen	it really boils down to interop w/ JS. If we tossed that out, we could do this easily w/ prototypal inheritance to avoid code explosion.
20:12	ibdknox	dnolen: I'd have to think about it, but my suspicion is that such a change would kill virtually all the code that is out there right now. haha
20:12	dnolen	ibdknox: haha
20:12	bbloom	dnolen: i dunno much about RestFn in Clojure
20:12	dnolen	ibdknox: yeah
20:16	ibdknox	dnolen: how big of a difference do you think it would really make?
20:16	bbloom	dnolen: are all usages of `arguments` inherently slow?
20:16	Raynes	ibdknox: I was complaining about you earlier.
20:16	ibdknox	Raynes: sounds legit. :p
20:18	ibdknox	Raynes: what's up?
20:18	Raynes	ibdknox: You named some functions in noir's validation library with question marks at the end but they didn't return booleans.
20:18	Raynes	I personally think you're the devil.
20:18	ibdknox	ah
20:19	ibdknox	lol
20:19	ibdknox	does everyone do that?
20:19	bbloom	i don't think i've ever succeeded in using `some without first trying `some?
20:21	dnolen	bbloom: arguments is slow, ~1.5-2X hit depending on engine
20:22	dnolen	ibdknox: probably ~1.5-2X depending on engine? My spidey sense says the current situtation affects inlining
20:23	bbloom	dnolen: so you want dispatch to always go to the arity-named overload, which you think prototypical inheritence can help you by simulating AFn's invoke overloads and subclasses?
20:24	dnolen	bbloom: yes go directly in the case of ^not-native - no testing
20:24	dnolen	bbloom: non rest-fns are easy arity to dispatch is clear - only rest fns are tricky
20:25	hiredman	obviously the answer is to make clojurescript a lisp-3, one namespace for clojurescript functions, one for clojurescript values, and one for javascript
20:25	dnolen	hiredman: heh
20:26	bbloom	dnolen: so RestFn has one subclass that is never instantiated (from what i can tell)
20:27	bbloom	and RestFn is only ever instantiated by WithMeta
20:27	bbloom	withMeta, rather
20:27	bbloom	oh, and by the 'list function in core
20:28	bbloom	either way, i don't think the concrete type is strictly necessary.... so what exactly do you need them for?
20:28	dnolen	ibdknox: to be honest this change probaby won't make a big difference to most code - mostly core.cljs implementation and few places in codebases where perf is critical (cljs.reader, core.logic, stuff like that)
20:29	dnolen	bbloom: to avoid code duplication.
20:29	bbloom	dnolen: existing duplication? or new duplication to be introduced by an optimization?
20:29	dnolen	bbloom: to avoid duplication if we introduced the optimization.
20:30	amalloy	&(instance? clojure.lang.RestFn swap!)
20:30	lazybot	⇒ true
20:30	amalloy	bbloom: any function that accepts varargs is a RestFn
20:30	bbloom	amalloy: hm, interesting... i can't tell where that happens... maybe in the generated byte code by the compiler?
20:30	amalloy	yes, i think so
20:31	bbloom	aahhh, yes ok, i see now
20:31	bbloom	it's used via getType at some point
20:31	bbloom	thanks
20:31	bbloom	i thought it was just a helper class for the sake of Java code
20:31	dnolen	hrm, I wonder if we could detect interop and auto-marshal CLJS fns?
20:32	dnolen	we could taint js/foo and external libs ...
20:32	bbloom	dnolen: i thought that too, but you can't b/c you would need full type inference
20:32	bbloom	(defn foo [x] (js/bar x))
20:32	bbloom	you'd need to marshall all args
20:33	frenchyp	in clojure.java.jdbc, when using connection pooling, am i supposed to use (sql/with-connection (db/db-connection) ..)?
20:33	frenchyp	and in that case , is the connection returned to the pool or actually closed ?
20:33	dnolen	bbloom: but it's obvious there that we need to wrap x
20:33	hiredman	frenchyp: clojure.java.jdbc doesn't have connection pooling
20:33	bbloom	dnolen: what if x is a number?
20:34	bbloom	dnolen: or a string?
20:34	dnolen	bbloom: do what cljs.core._truth does, test it
20:34	frenchyp	hiredman: I am referring to http://clojure.github.com/java.jdbc/doc/clojure/java/jdbc/ConnectionPooling.html
20:34	hiredman	frenchyp: if you use something like c3p0 then you connect to c3p0 just like you connect to a database
20:34	dnolen	bbloom: it's a CLJS fn, wrap it
20:34	bbloom	dnolen: then you're paying a test cost for every arg for interop calls
20:34	bbloom	and you need interop to perform well
20:34	bbloom	so there can't be any calling over head
20:35	bbloom	also, how are you going to call functions in clojurescript returned from javascript?
20:35	dnolen	bbloom: CLJS fns pass to JS are already slow if multiple arity or variadic
20:35	bbloom	yeah, but you're going to break or slow interop for all other cases by adding arg tests
20:35	frenchyp	hiredman: k thanks
20:37	dnolen	bbloom: arg tests happen once, you pay for exactly one property lookup
20:37	dnolen	per arg
20:38	dnolen	bbloom: not saying we should do this, but probably worth investigating in a branch, w/ interop benchmarks
20:40	dnolen	bbloom: hrm but you are right. the inference sounds complicated.
20:41	dnolen	if not impossible :)
20:44	bbloom	dnolen: :-)
20:44	bbloom	gotta run
21:19	dog_cat11	why does lein sometimes go into "repley.eval-mode.nreple" ns instead of the project my pwd is in?
21:23	noprompt	dnolen: is there another way to do property access in cljs aside from (.-prop o)
21:25	ivan	http://blog.headius.com/2012/11/refining-ruby.html Ruby gets an insane version of protocols?
21:26	alandipert	noprompt: (aget o "prop")
21:26	noprompt	alandipert: ah, thanks
21:27	noprompt	just what i was looking for
21:27	dog_cat11	nvm, it was because of an error compiling one of my files
21:32	dnolen	noprompt: but note that's really only for interop
21:35	noprompt	dnolen: i'm trying to eliminate some duplication in my angularjs code and (set! (.-prop $scope) …) is becoming a bit unweildy
21:37	noprompt	dnolen: if you need to set several properties at once is there a better route to go?
21:37	dnolen	noprompt: I don't know angular.js so I can't provide much insight. Don't forget a lot tedious boilerplate can often be eliminated via a simple macro.
21:37	amalloy	noprompt: so figure out what's being unnecessarily repeated, and write a macro that does the unnecessary parts for you
21:43	noprompt	dnolen: amalloy: good call, i haven't ventured in cljs macros
21:45	dnolen	noprompt: sadly it's a bit tricky if you're not used to macros in CLJ, but if you've got that under you belt - it's pretty convenient
21:45	noprompt	i'm thinking i may need to use anamorphic macros
21:45	noprompt	yeah i love macros in clj
21:46	noprompt	i've never written anamorphic ones, so i was trying to avoid doing that
21:46	noprompt	even though i think in the case of angulajs it might make sense
21:47	noprompt	dnolen: what should i watch out for with cljs?
21:48	dnolen	noprompt: heh, lots of stuff. but keep asking questions here and on Clojure/ClojureScript mailing list and you should be OK.
21:48	noprompt	sure thing :)
21:48	dnolen	noprompt: O'Reilly book looked pretty as well - though lein-cljsbuild info may be out of date now.
21:48	dnolen	pretty good I mean
21:49	aib	is there a version of case which works with non-compile-time literals, e.g. a static field?
21:49	dnolen	aib: no
21:49	noprompt	dnolen: yeah i've got that one, but i'm thinking i may sign up for the cljs class at clojure west to round out everything
21:49	dnolen	noprompt: yeah that'll be good. Relevance is doing a lot of CLJS it sounds like.
21:53	piranha	alandipert: are you by any chance here? :)
21:53	alandipert	piranha: of course dude
21:54	noprompt	dnolen: oh man, i think i should have been considering macros a little sooner. just cleaned up several lines.
21:54	dnolen	noprompt: it's pretty slick :)
21:54	alandipert	noprompt: only one little expression in your program needs to not be a macro so it will run, otherwise you can write all macros and it rules :-)
21:55	piranha	alandipert: haha, cool. :) I have a code like this: http://paste.in.ua/8055/ - and log is not executed on swap! - what is wrong here?
21:55	dnolen	noprompt: imagine my excited when I realized core.match could work in ClojureScript by changing 10 lines of code.
21:55	dnolen	excitement
21:56	dnolen	the bits of tools.macro I've tried also works just fine w/ CLJS which is pretty cool.
21:56	alandipert	piranha: hm. advanced mode compile?
21:57	piranha	alandipert: nope, I'll post my project.clj, just a second
21:57	noprompt	it's probably over my head at this point, but i'd love to get an understanding of how the macros are compiled to js
21:57	alandipert	piranha: cool. i take it the log on line 9 prints the right thing?
21:57	piranha	it does
21:57	piranha	alandipert: if you want, I can put whole code on github, so you can see it yourself
21:58	dnolen	noprompt: it's not very complicated. Macro just get expanded until there's nothing left to do, then that code is passed to the compiler.
21:58	alandipert	piranha: i can run it here myself no problem, 1 sec
21:58	piranha	alandipert: it actually prints stuff first time as well, when I create a new cell, but not on swap!
21:58	dnolen	noprompt: pretty much how it works on Clojure JVM
22:00	noprompt	dnolen: that's fascinating. it just seems like something so powerful would be more complex.
22:00	alandipert	piranha: so, you need to quote the map :-)
22:00	alandipert	piranha: if you don't, it gets "lifted" to a formula
22:00	piranha	alandipert: ah!
22:00	dnolen	noprompt: beauty of lisp!
22:00	noprompt	dnolen: i'll say.
22:00	piranha	alandipert: I was wondering why do you quote a map in your code, but forgot to ask and then forgot to quote myself
22:01	dnolen	noprompt: while a lot of the macros in CLJS are complex and ugly, I fear how nasty the compiler would be w/o them.
22:01	piranha	alandipert: maybe it should be mentioned in readme somehow :)
22:01	alandipert	piranha: yeah, otherwise it turns into the formula of (cell (hash-map x y etc..))
22:01	alandipert	piranha: it is but it's not very prominent
22:01	brehaut	out of curiosity is there a fixed point combinator in clojure ?
22:01	dnolen	noprompt: actual CLJS compiler is still less < 1000 lines of code.
22:01	piranha	alandipert: yeah, I just searched and it's hard to grasp :)
22:01	brehaut	(not Y )
22:02	alandipert	piranha: i'll add a map example to the Input Cell section since that's pretty common
22:02	amalloy	brehaut: none built in, but of course you can write it
22:03	noprompt	dnolen: really? that's incredible. i mean a 1000 lines of lisp is nothing to sneeze at, but wow.
22:03	piranha	alandipert: thanks :)
22:03	noprompt	dnolen: never would have guessed. i need to take a look at it. compilers are neat.
22:03	dnolen	noprompt: yep, ~1000 lines of analyzer, ~1000 lines of compiler, ~1000 lines of macros
22:04	noprompt	dnolen: so wait, core.match, what's that for again?
22:04	piranha	alandipert: hm, I quoted it and still no luck: (cell (.log js/console (clj->js 'world))) - or should I quote whole expression?
22:04	dnolen	noprompt: pattern matching a la Racket, OCaml, Haskell, Scala
22:04	alandipert	piranha: (def world (cell '{:stuff :test}))
22:04	piranha	ah %)
22:04	piranha	alandipert: thanks, it works! :)
22:05	noprompt	dnolen: ok, now i'm really excited.
22:05	alandipert	piranha: sweeeet
22:05	alandipert	!
22:05	noprompt	why i never used irc in the passed...
22:05	noprompt	s/passed/past
22:06	Frozenlock	noprompt: IRC is a forgotten gem
22:06	noprompt	this room alone has been like a knowledge christmas.
22:07	noprompt	dnolen: thanks for all the info!
22:07	dnolen	noprompt: np
22:07	noprompt	giddy
22:16	alandipert	piranha: added a couple more examples: https://github.com/tailrecursion/javelin/blob/master/README.md#input-cells-and-formula-cells
22:18	piranha	alandipert: thanks!
22:19	piranha	ah, makes sense :)
22:28	noprompt	dnolen: so macro expansion for cljs happens at compile time?
22:28	noprompt	s/so/does
22:29	dnolen	noprompt: yes, only compile time macros, no runtime macros
22:29	dnolen	for now
22:30	noprompt	so cool
22:30	noprompt	well, that's it for me today. gotta run.
22:31	noprompt	thanks everyone!
22:31	alandipert	that dude was cool
22:50	dcolish	if i have two functions which are of pretty much the same form, like these https://gist.github.com/dcolish/5044900, is that the point where a macro might make sense?
22:52	xeqi	anyone submitting to lambdajam? http://lambdajam.com/cfp/
22:53	Raynes	Where do I have to jam the lambda?
22:53	amalloy	dcolish: that looks like just a reduce
22:53	alandipert	dcolish: i'd probably pass in a function representing the difference. for me anyway, not macro-level yet
22:54	xeqi	Raynes: in a bot
22:54	Raynes	Sounds painful, xeqi.
22:54	dcolish	amalloy: could you elaborate? i dont quite follow
22:54	alandipert	dcolish: +1 what amalloy said, and your reduce function is what's different between them
22:55	amalloy	busy atm. someone elaborate for me
22:55	dcolish	i mean i know what a reduce does, i just dont see how it is an example of one
22:55	dcolish	kk
22:56	Raynes	lol
22:56	dcolish	hmm, maybe i'm thinking of reduce in a completely different way
22:57	alandipert	dcolish: https://www.refheap.com/paste/11862
22:57	alandipert	dcolish: untested but i'm guessing that's what amalloy has in mind?
22:58	dnolen	hm
22:59	dnolen	I think I may have a solution to at least optimizing non-variadic ClojureScript fns
22:59	dnolen	^not-native + -invoke
23:04	piranha	alandipert: how do I merge one cell into another? :) (cell (swap! world assoc-in [:form] form-cell)) complains :)
23:06	alandipert	piranha: (cell (assoc-in world [:form] form-cell)) should do it
23:06	alandipert	piranha: formula cell of the merge
23:06	piranha	oh, ok
23:07	alandipert	piranha: you should really only ever swap input cells
23:07	piranha	alandipert: well, idea is that 'world' is an input cell...
23:07	alandipert	piranha: i see, hm
23:08	piranha	and form is a cell I get from a form inputs, and I wanted to put everything in world back
23:08	alandipert	piranha: well, you could do (swap! world assoc-in [:form] @form-cell) of course, but then you leave FRP land
23:08	piranha	indeed!
23:08	piranha	and it won't update on form-cell changes :)
23:08	piranha	which is what I want, of course :)
23:09	alandipert	piranha: maybe what's updating form-cell should actually be updating world?
23:09	piranha	well... this means I should pass world inside of something instead of returning a cell from a form
23:09	piranha	and returning a cell with values seems to be more natural to me, honestly - this way form has no idea how data is used
23:10	piranha	it just returns data and doesn't care what's next
23:10	octagon	hallo
23:10	alandipert	piranha: octagon is micha and collaborator in FRP heresy
23:10	piranha	alandipert: (cell (assoc-in world [:form] formC)) doesn't seem to be working
23:10	piranha	ah cool :)
23:12	alandipert	piranha: perhaps you could paste codes?
23:12	piranha	I could, but it's a bit dirty :)) anyway, just a second
23:15	piranha	alandipert: here is the initialization: https://github.com/piranha/pairword/blob/master/src/pairwords/game.cljs#L18
23:16	piranha	and here are templates: https://github.com/piranha/pairword/blob/master/src/pairwords/tempjave.cljs#L24
23:17	alandipert	piranha: reading, thanks
23:17	piranha	I'm sorry for the amount of commented code there, it's just for a friend who is tracking loosely what's going on there
23:18	octagon	piranha: have you seen this: https://github.com/lynaghk/todoFRP/blob/master/todo/hlisp-javelin/src/include/index.cljs
23:18	alandipert	octagon: i tried to indoctrinate him already
23:20	piranha	octagon: yeah, but I'm wary of do='' notation in html files, to be honest :)
23:20	piranha	it's a bit similar to onclick and knockout.js, and I don't like both of them :))
23:20	octagon	piranha: yeah that may not be what you want, but the thing i linked is the FRP underpinnings
23:21	octagon	piranha: the structure is the base "world" cell, and then there are a number of functions that mutate that
23:21	alandipert	piranha: so world is kind of a dependency of form? maybe it makes sense to arrange them that way
23:22	octagon	piranha: the state mutating functions are called when the user manipulates the interface, meaning lick on something, submit a form, etc
23:22	alandipert	piranha: where world is a formula cell backed by n form cells
23:22	octagon	s/lick/click/
23:23	octagon	piranha: the main idea there being that DOM elements are I/O devices only; no data is stored there
23:23	piranha	alandipert: hmm... maybe I just should not join them, in the end - I just liked the idea of having big hashmap with whole world inside of it, i.e. all the data I have
23:24	alandipert	piranha: that's definitely the way to do it i think
23:24	piranha	and then on click somebody just moves data around inside of this world, not touching other pieces of data
23:24	alandipert	piranha: and a set of functions to transition the world from one state to the next, when events happen
23:24	piranha	aha... but I could have form and world in separate cells
23:24	alandipert	piranha: and then a bunch of event-agnostic IO formulas that effect DOM stuff when the world value changes
23:25	piranha	indeed, but then how do I get values from form into my world without my form knowing full path? :)
23:25	piranha	I could pass world and partial path, of course, but that seems a bit backwards
23:25	octagon	piranha: i think it's useful to have cells backing form elements, so you don't have to store data in the dom form
23:26	piranha	octagon: well I do have it :)
23:26	piranha	it's :form in my world
23:26	piranha	but then I want to merge form data back into world
23:26	piranha	I could, of course, pass a world, but this seems like passing a pointer to structure in C
23:27	piranha	if I understand correctly, the hard thing here is to determine in cell macro who is dependency here?
23:29	octagon	piranha: is line 56 the one you're referring to? in game.cljs
23:29	piranha	octagon: sorry, that part of code is not used right now - it's from days of flapjax :)
23:29	piranha	octagon: the only function used is init-jave, line 18
23:30	octagon	ah ok
23:30	piranha	I should've removed all the useless stuff :\
23:30	alandipert	piranha: did you check out input-to in dom.cljs? i avoid an intermediate cell with it
23:30	piranha	octagon: line 24 passes data to form
23:30	piranha	alandipert: aha, I'm using it to populate form cell :)
23:30	alandipert	piranha: aim it at world and your troubles are over
23:30	alandipert	;-)
23:31	rabbit_airstrike	working through 4clojure to brush up on some stuff, and it occurred to me that these interactive "learn through exercise" sites could be a bit more tree-structured
23:31	rabbit_airstrike	add user options to queue exercises in a breadth-first or depth-first search
23:32	alandipert	piranha: what you're trying to do reminds me of how one might use switchE in f.j.
23:32	piranha	alandipert: indeed! but then my form processor will know path of data in world cell. For a small app like this it's not a problem, really, and I could do that, but I'm just trying to get structure properly (at least that's how I see it, which could be wrong, of course)
23:32	alandipert	piranha: where you can make things that are backed by either B.changes or E's... but we don't really have that in javelin
23:33	piranha	that's true...
23:33	piranha	but conceptually feeding data from one cell to another doesn't seem wrong to me
23:33	alandipert	piranha: it's the way to go, the problem is just the direction you're going
23:34	octagon	piranha: line 27 looks like it should work. what does line 28 show in the console log when you run it?
23:34	alandipert	piranha: intermediate input cells that are event targets can't really be composed with other formula cells
23:34	piranha	octagon: it shows that formC is updated
23:35	piranha	octagon: so if I put anything in input, this log is executed, but then log on line 22 is not...
23:35	piranha	alandipert: and if I want to feed data from one cell to another, this another cell becomes a formula cell?
23:36	octagon	piranha: this is interesting, i have to think about this
23:36	Raynes	lein midje
23:36	Raynes	Damn it.
23:36	alandipert	piranha: right, that's the (current) definition of a formula cell
23:37	octagon	piranha: have you tried something like (cell (#(assoc-in world [:form] %) formC))?
23:37	piranha	hm, not yet, one moment
23:37	octagon	piranha: no, that's nonsense, sorry
23:38	piranha	octagon: maybe (cell (#(swap! world assoc-in [:form] %) formC))?
23:38	octagon	piranha: (cell (#(swap! world update-in [:form] %) formC))
23:38	octagon	indeed
23:38	piranha	:)
23:38	piranha	it works! :)
23:38	piranha	hooray!
23:39	octagon	piranha: so what was happening there i think was that when you have a formula cell
23:39	piranha	so indeed, if I mask world behind function, it has no problem determining what to do
23:39	octagon	piranha: the arguments are "unboxed"
23:39	piranha	aha
23:39	octagon	like if they're cells they get derefed
23:39	octagon	so the function never sees the actual cell
23:39	piranha	and so the cell is not updated
23:39	octagon	just the contents
23:39	piranha	sure
23:39	piranha	makes sense
23:40	piranha	it's the same as with quotation of hashmap, when you give it to cell
23:40	piranha	for cell to see whole thing it should be a 'primitive', so to say
23:40	piranha	octagon: alandipert: thanks! :)
23:40	octagon	yes, that was a tradeoff, we convert {:foo "bar"} to (hash-map :foo "bar") and then lift that
23:41	piranha	that's not a problem once one understands the concept
23:45	octagon	piranha: it might be interesting to try (cell (swap! '(cell world) update-in [:form] formC))
23:45	piranha	one moment
23:46	alandipert	octagon: wouldn't just 'world do the trick there?
23:46	piranha	octagon: it works
23:46	piranha	alandipert: one moment
23:47	piranha	alandipert: Uncaught Error: No protocol method IWatchable.-notify-watches defined for type object: {:state :entering-players, :players []}
23:47	alandipert	ah ok
23:47	octagon	alandipert: well it will deref world then, which we don't want
23:47	piranha	what's better then, '(cell world), or an anonymous function?
23:48	octagon	piranha: does '(cell world) work?
23:48	piranha	octagon: it does :)
23:48	octagon	piranha: sweet! i like that one :)
23:48	piranha	ok :)
23:48	alandipert	octagon: cleaner than cfn imo
23:49	octagon	piranha: wrapping in anon fn means that none of the things in the fn can be reactive
23:49	dog_cat11	~({:a 1} :a)
23:49	clojurebot	One idea I had was to parameterise Keyword with the key it looks up. :a is of (Keyword :a). But that has other issues.
23:49	dog_cat11	?({:a 1} :a)
23:49	octagon	like in the '(cell world) case, update-in could be a reactive thing too, or :form
23:49	alandipert	&123
23:49	lazybot	⇒ 123
23:49	dog_cat11	&({:a 1} :a)
23:49	lazybot	⇒ 1
23:49	piranha	octagon: aha, I see
23:50	AtKaaZ	,(partial Integer/parseInt "1")
23:50	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: parseInt in class java.lang.Integer, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:50	AtKaaZ	any other way? except anon functions
23:50	dog_cat11	&(do (def h2 {"a" 1 "b" 2})(let[{:keys[a b]} h2] b))
23:50	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
23:50	dog_cat11	wtf
23:50	dog_cat11	is there anyway to use destructing on hashes with string keys?
23:50	AtKaaZ	:strs ?
23:51	dnolen	optimization is not as broad as I would like but it does seems to jive well with protocols since they don't support the variadic case either - http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/a84c8aca59205bc6aa809cbb9996034c6f0de188
23:51	alandipert	&(let [{:strs [foo]} {"foo" 123}] foo)
23:51	lazybot	⇒ 123
23:51	AtKaaZ	why is partial not supporting java interop functions?
23:52	alandipert	AtKaaZ: java methods are not clj functions
23:52	dog_cat11	thanks alandipert
23:52	AtKaaZ	alandipert: ok that makes sense
23:53	alandipert	octagon: have you done any reactive-stuff-in-op-position yet?
23:53	octagon	alandipert: only just to check that it works, so far
23:53	alandipert	octagon: same, feels like real ultimate power tho
23:54	alandipert	octagon: like have a cycling fn
23:56	octagon	alandipert: thing-looper is the only case so far, that i can think of where i actually use that
23:56	octagon	but that's more of a curried function, i guess