#clojure – 2013-02-22

2013-02-22

00:06	Raynes	callenbot: I don't think I actually have much unused css.
00:16	frozenlock	Is there a more idiomatic way to pretty print to a file? (spit "filename" (with-out-str (clojure.pprint/pprint some-data-to-export)))
00:31	Raynes	frozenlock: Well, pprint prints to out, so bind out to a writer on the file.
00:32	Raynes	frozenlock: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/api/java/io/FileWriter.html
00:34	Raynes	frozenlock: (binding [out (java.io.FileWriter. (java.io.File. "foo"))] (clojure.pprint/pprint "{:foo \"bar\"}"))
00:36	amalloy	don't forget .close or with-open
00:36	Raynes	Well, yeah.
00:36	frozenlock	Raynes: Interesting.
00:37	frozenlock	Not really shorter, but helpful to understand the principle. :)
00:37	Raynes	I imagine it would be more efficient as well.
00:37	Raynes	With your version you're printing all of this to a string and then writing it to a file. With mine, you're just printing it to the file.
00:38	blankstare	hi, i'm trying to get my head around recursion and i've got a function that seems to be off by 1 (NullPointerException). Can anyone see where I'm screwing up? http://pastebin.com/9kMdz7Z3
00:38	Raynes	If it's small data you're pretty printing it doesn't really matter though.
00:38	Raynes	println returns nil so you're calling nil.
00:39	frozenlock	Raynes: around 914 bytes :P
00:43	Raynes	(defn fire-x-times [x] (dotimes [n x] (println "fired" (inc n) "times")))
00:43	blankstare	ah thx!
00:47	Raynes	(defn fire-x-times [x] (loop [x x n 1] (when (>= x n) (println "fired" n "times") (recur x (inc n))))) ; also works and would be preferable over a recursive solution.
00:48	Raynes	(defn fire-x-times ([x] (fire-x-times x 1)) ([x i] (when (>= x i) (println "fired" i "times") (recur x (inc i))))) ; and a recursive version.
00:48	Raynes	That'll be a dollar per version.
00:59	blankstare	nice!
01:10	amalloy	that solves blankstare's immediate problem, but i think Raynes missed the more important point. in lisp, parentheses are (with exceptions to learn about later) not a grouping construct at all, but the mechanism for calling functions. to "group" two expressions, you need to use some other tool. in clojure, that's (do a b)
01:11	Raynes	That's me, missing them points.
01:13	blankstare	Looks like good points.
01:16	amalloy	note, though, that since clojure is a functional language (and thus discourages side effects) you should need to use 'do pretty rarely
01:16	blankstare	@amalloy adding do to if's args solved my original function
01:17	blankstare	yeah. that might take a minute
01:27	Raynes	callenbot, bbloom: I ended up using helium css because it scans multiple pages and accumulates the data.
01:27	Raynes	Turns out there isn't a lot of cruft, but there was some that I've removed.
01:49	Raynes	callenbot: Changed the fault font to Menlo followed my Monaco followed by Deja Vu (and since I presume you use a mac, this doesn't effect you and keeps my Deja Vu loving Linux fans happy).
01:49	Raynes	Also went with 10pt instead of the 11 you recommended. It felt too big to me. This might change, but I doubt it. I have a much worse DPI at work and if it looked too big on this macbook, I'd have probably had a heart attack on my monitor at work.
02:28	ambrosebs	I've tracked down the root cause as to why `mvn test` fails in core.typed. Anyone got ideas/explanations? https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/clojure/8xjq99PtZTU
02:30	MacCoaster	Hi. I'm familar with accumulator functions, such as one in C#'s LINQ. I'd like to do the same but instead of keeping state I just want it to generate something like (foo (foo (foo (foo seed arg1 arg2) arg3 arg4) ... and so on. What's the best approach to this in Clojure?
02:31	MacCoaster	so I can evaluate it later, that is.
02:31	MacCoaster	Perhaps recur?
02:32	ambrosebs	It looks like an `iterate`?
02:32	amalloy	no, it's really just reduce, which i assume is the same as a LINQ accumulator
02:33	amalloy	(reduce (fn [acc args] (apply foo acc args)) seed [[arg1 arg2] [arg3 arg4]]) is what you asked for
02:36	amalloy	&(let [foo (partial list 'foo)] (reduce (fn [acc args] (apply foo acc args)) 'seed '[[arg1 arg2] [arg3 arg4] [arg5 arg6]]))
02:36	lazybot	⇒ (foo (foo (foo seed arg1 arg2) arg3 arg4) arg5 arg6)
02:37	MacCoaster	amalloy: aha, reduce, that's right :) thanks
02:38	MacCoaster	amalloy: though iterate does look like it may also solve that too? if x = seed, then f(seed), then that is fed as f(f(seed)), etc. no?
02:39	amalloy	mhm, and arg1, arg2, ... argN?
02:40	MacCoaster	amalloy: assuming I don't need arg1...N, but yeah, if I did, reduce looks better.
02:43	frozenlock	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1009 "make print-table org mode compatible". What happened to this feature?
02:46	frozenlock	Oh wait... "Fix Version/s: Release 1.5" ... does that mean the next version?
02:48	alandipert	frozenlock: it will be in 1.5 i think
02:49	frozenlock	Well, now I have a really good reason to be eagerly waiting 1.5 :D
02:50	tomoj	just use the RC?
02:50	frozenlock	That, and also to not get #=ed
02:50	tomoj	looks like the patch is in https://www.refheap.com/paste/4ebd4be52cb8bcf2b4f382076
02:51	tomoj	did the font at refheap change? I like it.
02:53	frozenlock	Are the release candidates also on clojars?
02:53	tomoj	no http://search.maven.org/#search%7Cga%7C1%7Cclojure
03:01	frozenlock	tomoj: Thanks, I'll try the last RC then. Living on the edge!
03:03	frozenlock	'ClassNotFoundException clojure.pprint'
03:03	frozenlock	Well... that didn't take long.
03:04	frozenlock	Oh! you need to require it in 1.5!
03:05	frozenlock	My world crumbles.
03:07	ryanf	is there a simple way in the repl to see the methods callable on an object? (i.e., the things that you can do (.foobar my-record) with for a given my-record)
03:07	ryanf	please forgive my terminology being embarrassing since I don't know what I'm doing
03:10	ifesdjeen	ryanf: yes, sure
03:11	frozenlock	ryanf: just found https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/bean.clj
03:11	ifesdjeen	ryanf: (:members (clojure.reflect/reflect object)
03:12	ifesdjeen	ryanf: (:members (clojure.reflect/reflect object))
03:12	ifesdjeen	probably you want to pprint it's output though
03:13	ifesdjeen	ryanf: you could also use repl-utils
03:13	ryanf	ifesdjeen: cool, thanks
04:34	cacodaemon	&(defn t (t))
04:34	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Parameter declaration t should be a vector
04:34	cacodaemon	:)
04:52	jcidaho	Has anyone deployed datomic to EC2 using a free transactor - maybe writing to S3? There's some stuff on the web but just starting out - any words of wisdom would be appreciated
04:53	ambrosebs	Do we know how many GSoC slots we have for 2013?
05:23	nonuby	is there no any?
05:25	ucb	anybody using riemann here?
06:10	pepijndevos	I'm trying to do a proxy by siphoning a client into a server, but it dosn't like doing that.
06:38	Anderkent	How can I put fully namespaced symbols into (case ...) ? I.e. (case a-symbol `foobar :x `barfoo :y) - it throws a duplicate case constant error for 'quote'
06:57	Anderkent	Also, what the hell does #= do? Why doesnt #=1 work? Or #=(quote foo)?
07:09	antares_	,(= ::sym :other-ns/sym)
07:09	clojurebot	false
07:09	antares_	,::sym
07:09	clojurebot	:sandbox/sym
07:10	antares_	:other-ns/sym
07:10	antares_	,:other-ns/sym
07:10	clojurebot	:other-ns/sym
07:17	meegofl	Hi, need a little help with for loop (not working) inside a function
07:17	meegofl	i have this function - http://pastebin.com/sFWEseKK
07:18	meegofl	if i comment out the for loop (and give static value to index) the body works
07:18	meegofl	if the loop is uncommented it just not getting to the body (even when in debug) with no error
07:34	aav	meegofl: in clojure most of things are evaluated lazily. in your example nothing triggers evaluation of (for …)
07:35	aav	meegofl: if you want to do be sure that all side effects will be applied, you can wrap your for loop with (doall …)
07:36	aav	meegofl: or, better, replace for with (doseq …). it is made specially for side effects
07:37	meegofl	aav: 10x! will try that now
08:06	clgv	&(defn f [x] (* x x))
08:06	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
08:06	clgv	oh the jail expands it completely until it finds def^^
09:08	pandeiro	how could i get a sequence of every day of a certain year, preferably w/ just core & java?
09:16	Foxboron	So, i am testing some regex stuff in the repl, and it gives me the right results. But if i actually run the code with lein, the results of the RegEx is somehow inverted from what the repl does.
09:32	jeremyheiler	pandeiro, I imagine some combination of lazy-seq and Calendar would work.
09:33	pandeiro	jeremyheiler: that's what i'm working out now, using Calendar's getActualMaximum()
09:33	ljos	jeremyheiler, pandeiro: or perhaps just iterate?
09:34	pandeiro	ljos: how would the fn work?
09:36	antares_	pandeiro: https://github.com/michaelklishin/quartzite/blob/master/src/clojure/clojurewerkz/quartzite/date_time.clj#L58 does what you need but it relies on JodaTime (which is always a good idea anyway)
09:38	pandeiro	antares_: you're right, looks good... think i'm gonna try to do it w/o for now though
09:38	ljos	pandeiro: I looked over Calendar api; I think it would be difficult with iterate because of how Calendar works. Use the date-time lib, prob better.
09:39	jeremyheiler	ljos, pandeiro, yeah Calendar is a side effecty object.
09:39	pandeiro	jeremyheiler: ljos: yeah i see that
09:40	pandeiro	what i am doing is so simple though i think i'd like to just KISS as much as possible
09:40	jeremyheiler	You could probably do it with iterate if you get a calendar on each iteration and reset the date to the day inputed, and return the next day
09:41	pandeiro	jeremyheiler: yup read my mind
09:47	TimMc	pandeiro: If you use lazy-seq and make sure the Calendar instance doesn't escape the scope, it's fine that it's side-effecting.
09:50	pandeiro	TimMc: right i would just create a new instance on every iteration, i was thinking
09:54	pepijndevos	How can I reconnect an Aleph client on error?
09:57	TimMc	pandeiro: No, I think you could just use the same instance.
09:59	pandeiro	TimMc: ah yeah sure, i am wanting to work with dates as [month date] vectors instead of java objects, so i was just passing each iterate the last vector, creating the instance, doing the math, and converting to my format
10:00	pandeiro	ljos: thanks for the idea by the way, i think it's the nicest way to do it
10:01	ljos	pandeiro: maybe (iterate #(let [cal (.clone %)] (.roll cal Calendar/DATE 1) cal) (Calendar/getInstance)) , that would be from now, but you could set the date.
10:02	pandeiro	ljos: more or less what i did, but yeah as a named fn that takes an initial date or defaults to now
10:03	pandeiro	i was using .add too, not .roll
10:04	TimMc	,(take-while number? (let [mutable (atom 0)] (repeatedly #(let [r @mutable] (when (< r 5) (swap! mutable inc) r))))) ;; pandeiro
10:04	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4)
10:06	pandeiro	TimMc: that was to show me how to limit by year? or deal with the mutable state? or both?
10:07	TimMc	Dealing with mutable state.
10:08	TimMc	Converting back and forth between Calendar and month/day sounds error-prone or overcomplicated.
10:08	pandeiro	TimMc: you're right
10:08	TimMc	Nothing wrong with contained mutation.
10:08	thalassios_xelon	hello room :))
10:09	pandeiro	TimMc: so in your example i wouldn't even use iterate or pass a calendar obj param
10:09	thalassios_xelon	(let [x 5] (symbol "x")) evaluates to x,not to 5,do you know why?
10:11	TimMc	thalassios_xelon: Yes, that's expected.
10:12	TimMc	I suppose you're confusing runtime values with compile-time values.
10:12	thalassios_xelon	i am... first time trying metaprogramming
10:12	thalassios_xelon	thx TimMc
10:13	TimMc	Trying to write a macro?
10:13	thalassios_xelon	not really a macro,just some dynamic code
10:14	thalassios_xelon	i will figure it out, thx
10:14	thalassios_xelon	bye room :)
10:24	TimMc	Anyone want to propose an over/under on when they'll be back asking about macros? :-P
10:27	clgv	sooooooon ;)
10:30	TimMc	I'd say more than 24 hours.
10:30	TimMc	but less than a week for sure
10:31	TimMc	Oh wait, maybe this is another boolean expressions thing.
10:37	andyfingerhut	TimMc: There is a Clojure patch on CLJ-1168 that seems like it should allow Leiningen to work with 1.5.0 and :jvm-opts ["-Dclojure.read.eval=unknown"] http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1168
10:37	clojurebot	Alles klar
10:38	TimMc	andyfingerhut: I tested it, it works great!
10:39	TimMc	I wasn't sure whether to mention that in the Jira.
10:39	TimMc	*Jira comments
10:39	andyfingerhut	TimMc: Were you able to test it with a Leiningen project with that line in its project.clj file, by any chance?
10:39	andyfingerhut	I wasn't sure how to do that with my own custom-built version of Clojure
10:40	clgv	andyfingerhut: you should be able to install that custom build locally via maven
10:41	andyfingerhut	clgv: Sorry, maven noob here. Would that be "mvn install" in my local Clojure source tree?
10:41	TimMc	I believe so.
10:41	clgv	andyfingerhut: from my leiningen knowledge, I'd guess so as well.
10:42	andyfingerhut	OK, trying that out...
10:42	clgv	you can check by browsing the .m2 directory if your clojure build shows up there
10:43	pepijndevos	lamina is weird...
10:45	TimMc	andyfingerhut: Re-testing, I may be seeing something weird.
10:47	andyfingerhut	TimMc: Stu H has an updated version of the patch that he'd like feedback on, so better to test that one if you can grab it.
10:48	TimMc	andyfingerhut: Will do. The existing version is setting read-eval to true when I do lein run, I think.
10:49	andyfingerhut	Both the original and Stu's newer patches should set read-eval to true while reading for the REPL, and while reading -e command line args, if you use -Dclojure.read.eval=unknown on the JVM command line. It should be :unknown at all other times, I believe.
10:50	TimMc	andyfingerhut: THe older patch was allowing clojure.main and the REPL to work properly, and (read-string "foo") entered into the REPL failed (as expected), but my -main fn is seeing read-eval true.
10:51	TimMc	Having internet trouble, may be a few minutes.
10:51	andyfingerhut	TimMc: odd. Would be good to figure out why that is happening.
10:51	TimMc	I'm not testing in a clean project, and I should be.
11:01	andyfingerhut	TimMc: I've got a clean project, and I've verified it works as expected with Clojure 1.5.0-RC15, meaning it bombs out when you try to set -Dclojure.read.eval=unknown in project.clj. Soon will try out that same project with Stu's patch.
11:01	TimMc	andyfingerhut: The newer patch works. I'll also go back and see if I can reproduce the weird behavior of the old patch in a fresh project.
11:02	andyfingerhut	TimMc: :-)
11:03	goracio	hey ) ,(def a 1) ,(def a (+ a 2)) ,a
11:03	TimMc	I actually patched against master. Probably doesn't make a difference.
11:03	goracio	,(def a 1)
11:03	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
11:03	goracio	what??
11:03	lazybot	goracio: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
11:03	goracio	,(def a 1)
11:03	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
11:04	goracio	,(def num 1)
11:04	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
11:04	ravster	hello everyone
11:04	andyfingerhut	I'm patching against master, too, which is only 1 minor commit later than 1.5.0-RC15
11:04	goracio	lazybot down ?
11:05	TimMc	goracio: That's clojurebot you're talking to, and the sandbox doesn't allow def.
11:05	goracio	ah )
11:05	goracio	so
11:05	goracio	this is valid (def a 1) (def a (+ a 2))
11:06	goracio	something like a = a+2
11:06	goracio	i guess
11:06	goracio	a is 3
11:06	goracio	i expected a is immutable
11:07	clgv	&(println "no, I am here")
11:07	lazybot	⇒ no, I am here nil
11:07	clgv	clojurebot kicked the bucket though
11:08	clgv	,(inc 1)
11:08	clojurebot	2
11:08	clgv	or not^^
11:08	goracio	so how that can be )
11:08	clgv	goracia: ah now I see. you tried something forbidden in clojurebots's sandbox
11:09	goracio	or persistent only vector and map ?
11:09	clgv	goracia: you cannot `def` anything in clojurebot's sandbox
11:09	clgv	`a` is var containing the result of its definition
11:10	clgv	when you implement functions you must not use `def` inside the function
11:10	goracio	so a is variable ?
11:11	clgv	instead you'd do something like that (defn f [x] (let [y (+ x 2)] (* x y))
11:11	goracio	i know about let
11:12	andyfingerhut	TimMc: Patch on top of latest Clojure master looks good to me. I tried it with a brand new tiny Leiningen v2.0.0 project. "lein run" bombed out with -Dclojure.read.eval=unknown and 1.5.0-RC15. It worked and showed read-eval = :unknown with 1.5.0-master-SNAPSHOT that I built with the patch.
11:12	goracio	i thought we cann't a=a+2 in clojure but it appears we can )
11:12	clgv	goracio: `a` is a symbol that is resolved to the variable you defined with the `(def a ...)` statement (provided you are in the samenamspace or imported the definition namespace in your current namespace)
11:12	andyfingerhut	clgv: Thanks for the help. Gotta go run to the day job now.
11:13	clgv	goracio: well, you redefine the variable `a` with the value of its previous definition altered by 2
11:13	clgv	andyfingerhut: no problem. good day
11:13	goracio	clgv: a = a+2 also redefines a with previous a
11:14	clgv	goracio: so what is your question/problem? variables and namespaces in clojure are indeed mutable
11:15	goracio	clgv: take Erlang there Y= 1 we defined Y and we cann't redefine it Y=Y+1 is not valid
11:16	clgv	goracio: ok. but what is your clojure related problem? you want to forbid (def a 1) (def a (inc a)) ? which means forbidding variable redefinition?
11:16	goracio	clgv: problem how we can prove that a is immutable )
11:16	clgv	goracio: you can't
11:17	clgv	goracio: you could use (def ^:const a 2) - but that does not work for all righthandside expressions
11:17	goracio	clgv: that's pretty strange
11:18	clgv	goracio: why? clojure does not promise that variables or namespace mappings are imutable
11:18	clgv	goracio: it promises that values of its standard datatypes are imutable (lists, vectors, sets, maps ...)
11:19	goracio	clgv: i see then
11:19	goracio	clgv: Erlang is more immutable then Clojure then ))
11:20	clgv	goracio: I dont know how Erlang manages namespaces so I cannot agree on that ;)
11:20	Wild_Cat	goracio: Clojure supports mutable datatypes anyway, so...
11:20	antares_	goracio: in a way, yes. Erlang can do that because everything is built around message passing, though. Take a look at http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/concurrency_and_parallelism.html
11:21	clgv	goracio: additionally, if you find yourself code that looks like "(def a 1) (def a (+ a 2)" your doing something pretty wrong.
11:21	clgv	*writing code
11:21	clgv	*you are^^
11:21	matthavener	doesn't erlang only allow two copies of a module in memory at a given time?
11:21	goracio	clgv: that was just for example )
11:21	clgv	where did my spellchecker go after launch?
11:22	matthavener	and jvm allows more than that afaik
11:22	clgv	goracioa: yeah, mine was an example as well. if you program in a similar way like the above. you are doing something wrong
11:25	TimMc	goracio: Why do you keep putting closing parens at the end of your sentences?
11:27	goracio	TimMc: habbit
11:28	goracio	TimMc: from chats
11:28	clgv	could be a lisp infection ;)
11:33	pepijndevos	What could be going on here? In aleph, I siphon stuff into other stuff, but the second time it doesn't work. Step one: find acurate problem description.
11:37	pbostrom	pepijndevos: maybe paste some code to refheap too
11:38	pepijndevos	pbostrom: step 2, don't hurry… :)
11:38	pepijndevos	having a ton of fun with the vis part of lamina.
11:38	pbostrom	pepijndevos: worth looking into as well, the visualization stuff built in to lamina, very useful in debugging
11:39	pbostrom	(view-graph ch)
11:39	pepijndevos	pbostrom: just what I said. very nice and a lot of fun
11:39	pepijndevos	but not very helpful so far
11:39	ravster	I'm trying to learn tools.logging. I'm using the example that they have in their readme. Where do I set the location for the logs?
11:40	clgv	ravster: e.g. in the log4j.properties file - sadly the have no built-in config-function
11:41	clgv	ravster; provided you use log4j with tools.logging - it supports other logging libs as well
11:41	ravster	when I do a (divide 2 0) I just get a nil and thats it. No other output.
11:41	ravster	yup, using log4j, clgv
11:41	pepijndevos	pbostrom: okay, here you go.
11:41	pepijndevos	https://www.refheap.com/paste/11662#L-40
11:41	pandeiro	,(let [c (atom (java.util.Calendar/getInstance))] (swap! c #(.add % java.util.Calendar/DATE 1)) @c)
11:41	clojurebot	nil
11:41	clgv	,(divide 2 0)
11:41	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: divide in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:42	clgv	ravster: what is the definition of `divide`?
11:42	pandeiro	ah i see what i did wrong
11:42	pepijndevos	pbostrom: the problem seems to be that the second time around, the siphone a t line 40 doesn't work. If I trace a message from server-out, it only goes to println and keep-alive, not to client.
11:43	clgv	pepijndevos: hidden exceptions in other threads cause behavior like you described. I ran against this wall several times already
11:43	pandeiro	,(let [c (atom (java.util.Calendar/getInstance))] (swap! c #(do (.add % java.util.Calendar/DATE 1) %)) @c)
11:43	clojurebot	#inst "2013-02-23T16:44:23.468+00:00"
11:43	ravster	the exact same as in the readme for tools.logging. Decided that I might as well do it with a working example. https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging#usage
11:43	pepijndevos	clgv: oh, what do you do about something like that?
11:44	clgv	pepijndevos: I was lucky that I had the thready in control, when using a threadpool I could wrap the submission into try-catch to find those exceptions
11:44	pepijndevos	clgv: I have just one thread, and the one aleph uses presumably.
11:44	clgv	*threads
11:45	ravster	clgv: oh, its supposed to print it out to the console, so its not showing in nrepl
11:45	clgv	pepijndevos: I dont know how things with aleph are
11:46	clgv	ravster: ah ok. yeah it logs it as error and returns nil
11:47	clgv	ravster: if you have no log4j.properties file, you'll get a warning on first logging attempt and thus nothing will be logged
11:47	clgv	ravster: the config given in the readme is a console appender. there is a fileappender as well.
11:49	clgv	ravster: try this configuration https://www.refheap.com/paste/11664
11:49	ravster	clgv: should I be using log4j 2 instead?
11:49	ravster	their website seems to be 2.0 oriented.
11:50	clgv	ravster; I use those dependencies [org.clojure/tools.logging "0.2.4"] [org.slf4j/slf4j-api "1.6.1"] [org.slf4j/slf4j-log4j12 "1.6.1"]
11:50	clgv	seems I missed two minor releases
11:51	clgv	ah no, just one +2
11:55	ravster	k, I'll install the slf4j stuff. I don't need to get the log4j package then?
11:55	pepijndevos	clgv, pbostrom: I can't find any exception. I can manually run the siphon command, and it'll just silently fail, it seems.
11:56	pepijndevos	(siphon server-out @cl) (view-graph server-out) -> no sign of @cl
11:56	seangrove	ibdknox: Is there some way to disable connection pooling in korma?
11:56	clgv	ravster: I do not have it as dependency
11:56	clgv	ravster: and loggign works. I used it to debug my remote applications a lot ;)
11:56	gfredericks	seangrove: I think if you create the db map yourself you can
11:57	gfredericks	check the return value from the connection info fn you're using
11:57	gfredericks	there's probably a :use-pool? key in there or something
11:57	seangrove	gfredericks: I'll check it now...
12:00	clgv	ravster: 1.7.2 seems to be the newes slf4j-* version
12:02	ravster	clgv: Have you tried clj-logging-config?
12:03	clgv	ravster: I did not know of that lib until now. I wrote my own function to configure log4j programmatically
12:03	ravster	okay
12:04	seangrove	Is there a way to find out what methods an object responds to? I'm trying to get the database connection that Korma uses to connect directly
12:05	clgv	ravster: the readme looks good though
12:05	ravster	I'm going to try your slf4j stuff first, and see if I get it.
12:08	seangrove	I'd like to automatically include all of the information from http://us5.api.mailchimp.com/1.3/ in my Mailchimp wrapper https://github.com/cloudfuji/chinpu
12:08	seangrove	Curious to know if there's an easy way to do this short of copy/pasting everything over
12:11	ravster	clgv: Hey, your system worked for me. Thanks. I found the log file in the root of the project.
12:11	ravster	clgv: thanks
12:11	ohpauleez	seangrove: Use a screen scraper?
12:12	clgv	ravster: no problem. but you could try to use clj-logging-config if you do not like the properties file. the lib's readme looks promising
12:12	pepijndevos	This is crazy! the output channel is fine. The input channel is fine. When I siphone the one to the other, nothing comes out of the output.
12:12	ravster	and the log4j.properties file should just be under the src dir, right?
12:13	clgv	ravster: you will need to include the properties file in any jar you build (e.g. put it in "resources" in a leiningen project)
12:13	frozenlock	Well.. I just realized how silly it was on my part to 'not' use print-table. This is amazing to analyse maps!
12:13	ravster	oh, okay. thats a good idea. I should make better use of the "resources/" dir.
12:14	clgv	pepijndevos: you should call a plumber ;)
12:14	pepijndevos	clgv: you know a good one?
12:14	clgv	pepijndevos: not in your area, I guess^^
12:14	pepijndevos	too bad
12:15	pepijndevos	I guess the out channel just doesn't like being siphoned
12:15	pepijndevos	I made a new channel, and that didn;t work either
12:16	pepijndevos	there is a grey box in the graph as well that bothers me.
12:17	pepijndevos	maybe the client channel turns into a ghost and haunts me after I close the connection
12:21	pepijndevos	okay, that is indeed the closed channel. But since this is a permanent-channel, it shouldn't matter.
12:22	clgv	pepijndevos: do you use aleph for usual program communication or for browser-server-communication?
12:23	pepijndevos	clgv: no browser is involved. Not sure if it's usual. I'm writing an IRC bouncer.
12:24	pepijndevos	I thought I'd just siphone everything into everything and it'd work.
12:24	pepijndevos	It sortof does I guess, except the second time you connect the output from the server is not siphoned back to the client.
12:31	pbostrom	pepijndevos: sorry to leave you hanging, I'll try to look at this a little later
12:32	pepijndevos	pbostrom: ok, I'm trying to reproduce it with a minimal test case, and failing so far.
12:35	muhoo	got piggieback working!! {:dependencies [[com.cemerick/piggieback "0.0.3-SNAPSHOT"
12:35	muhoo	:exclusions [org.clojure/google-closure-library-third-party]]
12:35	muhoo	[cljsbuild "0.3.0"]]
12:35	muhoo	:repl-options {:nrepl-middleware [cemerick.piggieback/wrap-cljs-repl]}
12:35	muhoo	gah
12:35	muhoo	https://www.refheap.com/paste/11667 was supposed to be this
12:36	muhoo	the essential part is: it was required to add cljsbuild as an explicit dependency, otherwise, no piggieback. whatever magick is in cljsbuild, piggieback must have it. and now i have a working cljs in nrepl.el!
12:38	dnolen	muhoo: nice!
12:50	muhoo	heh, that is one massive freakin hairball. but it works https://www.refheap.com/paste/11668
12:54	pepijndevos	I can't reproduce the greyed out graph block. When I make myself a permanent channel, siphon some stuff and close that, I get no gray box in the permanent's graph, like in my real code.
13:00	pepijndevos	reproducified!
13:03	callenbot	Raynes: thank for the font changes. I'll take a look. Also I'll look into Helium.
13:07	Bodil	muhoo: Any special reason you're using the 0.0.3 snapshot version of Piggieback?
13:07	pepijndevos	If any lamina export cares to try this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/11669
13:08	muhoo	Bodil: i ended up there as part of the thrash. can try it with 0.2.0, i suspect that'll work too.
13:08	Bodil	muhoo: Ah, OK, was just wondering if there were features I'm missing out on. :)
13:09	muhoo	according to git, some bugfixes, IIRC
13:12	pepijndevos	$mail pbostrom seems to have to do with fork. https://www.refheap.com/paste/11669
13:12	lazybot	Message saved.
13:17	pepijndevos	lamina is too magic
13:21	Bodil	If I want to do unit testing in Clojurescript, do I have any options other than Prismatic's cljs-test and that weird stuff in Clojurescript One?
13:21	Bodil	Because if that's it, I'm about to write a test framework of my own...
13:22	kencausey	Will Midje just not work on cljs?
13:22	Bodil	Never tried - can't really imagine it'll cross compile.
13:23	kencausey	I would at least try
13:23	technomancy	I'd rather write my own
13:23	kencausey	Brian Marick seems to be active right now and I suspect would be happy to help if it doesn't work.
13:24	tomoj	Bodil: please write one :)
13:24	tomoj	I half-ported clojure.test to cljs
13:24	technomancy	clojure.test relies fairly heavily on vars IIRC
13:24	Bodil	It won't run on Cljs without somebody porting it. And I'm not a Midje fan, I'd prefer something more like clojure.test tbh...
13:24	tomoj	but not released
13:25	Bodil	tomoj: Any useful code I could borrow?
13:25	muhoo	there's some stuff in phantomjs for cljs testing, IIRC, but i don't remember th details
13:25	muhoo	maybe in cljsbuild docs, i saw this mentioned? fuzzy.
13:26	Bodil	muhoo: That's just for running tests on Phantom, not writing them.
13:27	tomoj	Bodil: https://github.com/tomjack/cljs-test
13:27	tomoj	I don't remember what state it's in
13:27	tomoj	sorry for the git-deps too :(
13:28	tomoj	you can at least see the changes I made to clojure.test in the history for inspiration :)
13:28	tomoj	..or, at the very least, to see what not to do
13:29	Bodil	tomoj: Ah, so you were porting the test runner, not the assertion stuff? I was hoping you'd done the is macro. :)
13:29	Bodil	tomoj: I need something that supports async testing, so I can't reuse the test runner.
13:30	tomoj	yeah, that's where I stopped
13:30	tomoj	I pretty much just copied the is macro directly
13:31	Bodil	Oh, wait, that probably doesn't need much porting, does it?
13:32	tomoj	hmm
13:33	tomoj	it looks like I didn't give thrown? a try* version
13:33	tomoj	but I thought I remembered doing that
13:38	tomoj	oh, it looks like I didn't even excise the var problems, either? I'm guessing this was my second attempt and I hadn't gotten there yet
13:41	tomoj	and apparently my first attempt was so bad I deleted it
13:41	Bodil	tomoj: I get the feeling maybe clojure.test for Cljs isn't a great idea after all :)
13:42	tomoj	I'd still like something analogous, even if it needs to change too much to be just a port
13:43	tomoj	..which means `is` I guess ?
13:44	Bodil	That's my favourite assertion ever, so I'm not giving up on it. :)
13:50	dnolen	Bodil: a real cljs.test would be awesome
13:54	Bodil	dnolen: Guess I'll see what I can do :)
14:02	dnolen	Bodil: I wouldn't be against the minor changes to the compiler to support running tests - the way ClojureScript tests are done leaves much to be desired.
14:03	dnolen	Bodil: it's really (run-tests ...) that needs help from the compiler. I'm also interested in enough support so that lein cljsbuild can easily hook into it.
14:06	pppppaul	i'm getting into clojure concurrency stuff now, and i was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of how to do a good/idiomatic timeout loop in clojure
14:06	pppppaul	:D
14:06	antares_	pppppaul: timeout loop?
14:07	Bodil	dnolen: I suspect that's all just implementation details.
14:07	pppppaul	hmmm... every few seconds i want to try to reconnect to a server
14:07	pppppaul	antagon,
14:08	pppppaul	antares_,
14:08	dnolen	Bodil: yes, I'm just saying if you're going to tackle cljs.test, I'd more than happy to get that into CLJS so everyone can benefit.
14:10	antares_	pppppaul: I use scheduled executors in the JDK for that: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/Executors.html#newSingleThreadScheduledExecutor(). You then can submit Clojure functions to them.
14:10	antares_	they implement all the interfaces executors expect
14:11	antares_	a very naive version can be impemented with an endless loop + sleeping in a thread, but you won't be able to cancel it gracefully
14:12	Bodil	dnolen: I'm going to tackle some kind of testing framework, at least... let's see how well that turns out before we go calling it cljs.test or anything. :)
14:12	pppppaul	i sorta want to stay away from threads... i have a single thread in my program right now and it's really taking more of my time to manage/debug that than i desire
14:13	mpenet	pppppaul: shameless plug: I wrote a lib that wraps that stuff https://github.com/mpenet/knit , I use it to do exactly what you describe in another lib
14:13	pppppaul	mpenet, going to check it out
14:14	pppppaul	also, if anyone here has experience working with rabbitmq + clojure i would be very interested in having a chat. i'm having a lot of trouble dealing with exception handling/recovery with langohr
14:14	alandipert	dnolen: is the compiler support needed for tests you envision enough of a dynamic ns system?
14:15	antares_	pppppaul: yeah, exception handling in the Java client does not make it easy to recover. Langohr currently does not provide any solution.
14:15	antares_	it took some time to design in a few other clients, too
14:16	pppppaul	i want to cry
14:17	TimMc	pppppaul: I think your nick has gained weight.
14:17	pppppaul	antares_, if you have any examples of simple error recovery (losing a connection to rabbitmq or anything) i would be greateful to take a look
14:18	pppppaul	TimMc, sometimes the 'p's grow... they are beyond my control
14:18	antares_	pppppaul: if there was a good demonstrative example, I'd have put it to the langohr docs already
14:18	pppppaul	antares_, crap
14:21	pppppaul	i thought that agents or some other clojure concurrency construct would be a good fit for rabbit... do you think it would be easy or hard to implement a consumer with one? right now my main problem is that when an exception occurs my thread dies.
14:22	antares_	pppppaul: you can send-off incoming messages to an agent
14:22	antares_	pppppaul: but error handling has to happen in the consumer object langohr reifies for you
14:23	antares_	pppppaul: because in Langohr queue names and such are strings and not objects, recovery will include recovering the connection, then channels and consumers
14:23	dnolen	alandipert: no not general enough for that, just hooking into the analyzers namespaces atom with holds all the defs
14:24	antares_	and there is only so much we can do without wrapping key Java client classes or submitting changes to the Java client
14:24	dnolen	alandipert: I don't think dynamic namespaces will happen before the compiler can bootsrap itself.
14:24	dnolen	Bodil: gotcha :)
14:24	antares_	maybe I'll sit down to try out a couple of ideas this weekend
14:25	pppppaul	antares_, currently i have channel and connection recover code (us atoms and reset!), i don't have consumer stuff ready... i think it may be a bit harder, going to have to make an atom or something for that as well
14:25	antares_	pppppaul: feel free to post what you have in mind to the clojure-rabbitmq mailing list
14:26	antares_	using an atom for channels should be fine
14:26	antares_	I agree with you that consumer recovery is the hardest part
14:26	tomoj	oh, I found my attempt to remove var stuff from clojure.test
14:26	pppppaul	my situation is very easy to deal with, though. i have 1 channel, 1 connection, and 1 consumer...
14:27	pppppaul	i'm really leaning on moving to storm
14:27	alandipert	dnolen: sounds reasonable
14:28	tomoj	there are atoms in a macro ns holding a map of symbols to test functions
14:28	tomoj	but you can just use the analyzer instead?
14:29	antares_	pppppaul: storm is a pretty different beast. You can try messaging in https://github.com/ptaoussanis/carmine if your needs are very small.
14:30	alandipert	dnolen: apropos nothing, and not having researched myself, would pluggable analyzer mean pluggable syntax fronts in cljsc?
14:33	pppppaul	antares_, i would like to be enlightened about the tradeoffs of storm.
14:34	antares_	pppppaul: it's just a very different system. Not a messaging solution, even if it does messaging internally.
14:34	pppppaul	well... i'm actually using rabbit messages for job processing
14:35	pppppaul	so... that's actually why i'm interested in storm
14:35	pppppaul	i'm not really taking advantage of rabbitmq at all
14:38	jweiss	Raynes: amalloy_ any hints on getting lazybot to reconnect automatically? i run him on my corporate irc server, and he occasionally loses the connection. the log file shows him continuously pinging himself. maybe get him to give up after x failed pings and start a new connection?
14:39	Raynes	jweiss: There is not mechanism for that. It need to be added to the new Irclj and lazybot needs to actually use the new Irclj (and someone needs to finish the new Irclj).
14:39	Raynes	s/not/no*
14:40	TimMc	Raynes: Did that clojail bug I found get fixed yet? If not, need help?
14:40	jweiss	Raynes: ok thanks
14:40	Raynes	TimMc: I don't actually remember the bug. If you want to take a shot at fixing it, by all means be my guest.
14:41	Raynes	TimMc: I always need help.
14:41	TimMc	Raynes: Is github up to date enough to do meaningful work?
14:41	Raynes	Yep.
14:45	antares_	Raynes: now that you are in LA, ever thought of directing a movie called Resident Eval with clojurebot as the main character?
14:46	Raynes	Heh.
14:47	ravster	hello all
14:49	antares_	hi ravster
14:50	antares_	pppppaul: by the way, by all means I and the rabbitmq team understand that ease of recovery is a problem. It just takes a while to design that, so far we are done with 2 clients out of… many.
15:02	ohpauleez	Bodil: ping
15:03	Bodil	ohpauleez: PONG
15:04	ohpauleez	Girl! what's going on?! - two things: are you going to be at ClojureWest, can you link me to your clojail file again? I can't seem to find it on github
15:06	Bodil	ohpauleez: One: I'm supposed to be presenting there, so it's either that or make Alex mad at me. Two: https://github.com/bodil/thefutureisclojure/blob/master/src/server.clj
15:06	ohpauleez	Bodil: One: excellent. Two: thanks!
15:07	ohpauleez	first thing in the morning? excellent
15:07	ohpauleez	haha
15:10	Bodil	ohpauleez: Protip: never tell Alex not to put you at the end of the day because you're going to be jetlagged. He takes things too literally. :P
15:10	ohpauleez	haha
15:11	ibdknox	Bodil: at least you'll get it done early and have the rest of the day to relax :)
15:12	Bodil	ibdknox: Good point. I guess you should know after the Conj too :)
15:13	pbostrom	ohpauleez: FYI, if you want to use def with your clojail, be sure to grab the very latest, 1.0.4, I patched an issue with that a couple days ago
15:13	technomancy	being the last presenter sucks
15:13	technomancy	unless you are samaaron
15:13	ibdknox	it really does
15:14	ohpauleez	pbostrom: Thanks for the heads!
15:14	ohpauleez	technomancy: truth
15:14	ibdknox	technomancy: I think that is still my favorite clojure presentation so far
15:14	muhoo	hmm https://www.refheap.com/paste/11677 Cannot call method 'setParameterValue' of undefined main-dev.js:27591
15:14	Bodil	lol
15:14	ibdknox	such a fun guy
15:15	ohpauleez	I imagine the first time I commit a major crime, will come from an evening of drinking with Sam Aaron
15:15	TimMc	technomancy: 2nd time slot is best.
15:15	TimMc	Early enough that people are awake, but you're not the first to try out the A/V tech.
15:15	ohpauleez	one thing will lead to another, someone will startup overtone
15:15	ohpauleez	and then bam, we're robbing a bank
15:15	muhoo	musicians, we know how to party
15:16	ohpauleez	agreed
15:16	ibdknox	I tended to pick the first slot if I could
15:16	ohpauleez	because you're a baller
15:16	ohpauleez	we get it ibdknox :)
15:16	Bodil	First slot is keynote slot :)
15:16	bbloom	ibdknox: so that people aren't awake enough to know if what you're saying actually makes sense? :-)
15:16	ibdknox	bbloom: it's the best cover
15:17	ohpauleez	hahs
15:17	ibdknox	bbloom: make some hand motions, point at some fullscreen pictures
15:17	ibdknox	no one's the wiser
15:17	ibdknox	worst presentation I ever gave was in Poland
15:17	ibdknox	such a disaster
15:18	ibdknox	and it was entirely my fault lol
15:18	ohpauleez	mostly because you realized you didn't know polish
15:18	ibdknox	and I didn't know it was a keynote!
15:18	jweiss	anyone know how to get a full stack trace on "OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space"? the bottom line of mine is at clojure.core$fn__5290.invoke(core_print.clj:191). clearly that is not the lowest stack frame.
15:18	ohpauleez	damn
15:18	ibdknox	they told me on the plane ride over
15:18	ibdknox	I had 3 presentations in 1.5 days
15:19	jaen	Wow, I wasn't aware there were any Clojure presentations in the backward nation of Poland ; p
15:19	ibdknox	and like an idiot I didn't give myself enough time to arrive early and adjust
15:19	ibdknox	jaen: I was with Microsoft
15:19	muhoo	so why would peerUri be undefined?
15:19	cemerick	ibdknox: s/clojure presentation/presentation/ ftfy :-)
15:19	brainproxy	any good examples of using clojure to dynamically generate QR code PNGs with the zxing lib?
15:19	ibdknox	cemerick: haha :)
15:20	TimMc	ibdknox: Wow, Microsoft was using Clojure? :-P
15:20	ibdknox	lol
15:20	ibdknox	ass.
15:20	jaen	ibdknox: so it wasn't Clojure presentation then?
15:20	jaen	Oh well ; d
15:20	ibdknox	jaen: yeah, I was the PM for C# and VB
15:20	ibdknox	so no Clojure unfortunately
15:20	jaen	Noone talks about interesting languages here...
15:20	TimMc	jaen: I dunno, Polish is an interesting language.
15:20	jaen	ibdknox: oh, I see.
15:21	jaen	TimMc: I see what you did there... ; p
15:21	jaen	It's pretty okay as far as languages go
15:21	muhoo	too many consonants
15:21	ibdknox	I remember being astounded by how many beautiful people were in Warsaw
15:21	jaen	But still, I'd prefer if people didn't laugh at me when I go like Clojure, Scala or Haskell
15:21	TimMc	muhoo: Tricky consonants.
15:22	muhoo	though the czechs have the market cornered on consonants, IIRC
15:22	jaen	Because dude, C++ or Java is what real men use
15:22	jaen	Duh
15:22	TimMc	You think that's just an L with a stroke through it, but noooo...
15:22	ibdknox	jaen: yeah, when I was there it seemed like EVERYONE was C++
15:22	ibdknox	managed was considered a joke
15:23	muhoo	in _, garbage collects you!
15:23	jaen	ibdknox: yeah, people in Poland tend to boast that we the nicest girls in quite a radius
15:23	jaen	Well
15:23	jaen	The CS curriculum where I study goes like 1 sem Pascal, 1 sem C, 2 sem C++, 1 sem Java
15:23	jaen	And that's it
15:23	muhoo	this madness must stop
15:24	muhoo	teach haskell for CS101
15:24	Bodil	jaen: I kind of prefer that to Norway's 6 sem Java and that's it...
15:24	jaen	Bodil: ok, fair point
15:24	jasonbray	interoping with a javascript function that takes an array of maps (like a named argument constructor) - I assume you can't just pass in a cljs array of maps.. is there an idiomatic approach?
15:24	jaen	And I have this tendency to troll the teachers with uncommon languages
15:24	jaen	Though I was a bit bummed
15:24	jaen	When I wrote my algorithms article in Haskell
15:25	Bodil	jasonbray: (clj->js)
15:25	jaen	And after I asked if the professor noticed any interesting languages, he was like "oh, yeah, someone had examples in python" ; /
15:25	muhoo	ok, that's weird. cljs is not creating the browser repl iframe
15:26	jasonbray	bodil: thanks
15:26	muhoo	so when it tries to clojure.browser.repl/connect, there's no there there
15:26	jaen	muhoo: I dunno about Haskell, but I really liked how SICP approached it and thusly I'm of mindset that if you don't start CS education with C or LISP, you're probably doinf it wrong.
15:26	nuclearsandwich	jaen Majority California is Java and maybe some scheme. It's a bigger issue. :(
15:26	nuclearsandwich	Majority of California, even
15:26	pepijndevos	pbostrom: I filled a bug in lamina: https://github.com/ztellman/lamina/issues/58
15:27	pendlepants	can someone explain to me what's going on in this gist? https://gist.github.com/zachpendleton/19eaa46bbeaed82913d0
15:27	borkdude	Java is very dominant in education somehow
15:27	pendlepants	I'd expect each function to be called once, but it looks like `two` is being called twice.
15:27	ibdknox	The few classes I took were all in Java as well at UNC
15:27	drewc	jaen: Even better would be Lisp, which is past LISP 1.5 ;) (and not capitalized:))
15:27	nuclearsandwich	borkdude $$$
15:28	muhoo	i'm at a disadvantage having been self-taught C (linux), web stuff (js, php, sql) and lisp/scheme, and now clojure, and knowing very little java. and all the work out there seems to be java, and all the real-world things i want to do using clojure involve massive gobs of java library cruft
15:28	pbostrom	pepijndevos: cool, you can also hit up the aleph mailing list, zach is pretty responsive there too
15:28	borkdude	nuclearsandwich how did it come about that Java relates to $$$?
15:28	jaen	I don't understand why Java is so dominant in education
15:29	nuclearsandwich	muhoo I wouldn't consider being self taught a disadvantage. Especially if you're teaching yourself formal CS along with programming
15:29	jaen	About every other language
15:29	jaen	Give you more to learn about programming
15:29	jaen	*Gives
15:29	Bodil	jaen: It's because it's dominant in the job market.
15:29	pepijndevos	pbostrom: maybe I will do that if he doesn't respond to the issue
15:29	muhoo	nuclearsandwich: i agree. i really feel the pain now since learning clojure
15:29	Bodil	jaen: Which it is because it's dominant in education. And so on.
15:29	jaen	Bodil: Figures, but it's so, so sad
15:29	nuclearsandwich	borkdude: Sun put a lot of marketing money into making java seem like the perfect language for learning to program and cashed in on the OOP will change everything about CS fad
15:29	borkdude	Java takes the fun out of programming, but this is my personal opinion
15:30	drewc	muhoo: I consider that an advanatage, save for php being 'web stuff' when IMO is <not-so-good> stuff :P But I am a self taught software developer ... who works primarily in Lisp
15:30	pppppaul	muhoo, wrap that java
15:30	jaen	I worked for a year in Rails and then I was like, why not see how does Java fare, it can't be that dreadful I guess
15:30	nuclearsandwich	borkdude: my issue with java is that it 60%s everything. It's not fully committed to anything, efficiency, OOP, anything
15:30	jaen	So I got a Java job
15:30	ibdknox	muhoo: I'm self taught :)
15:31	jaen	And this whole week was wasted on trying to deploy a liferay project and repeatedly failing
15:31	jaen	So I don't get why Java is so popular in the job market
15:31	Bodil	jaen: Consultants usually bill by the hour. ;)
15:31	muhoo	ibdknox: well, but the IB in ibdknox may have given you a head start
15:31	pppppaul	java is popular because all universities teach it
15:31	drewr	jaen: it's all schools taught for years
15:31	nuclearsandwich	Bodil: hahah
15:31	jaen	Must be some sort of inertia I guess... ; /
15:32	borkdude	pppppaul the question is, why did universities start to teach it
15:32	ibdknox	muhoo: not in terms of programming, I didn't think there even was an IB CS course
15:32	pppppaul	java was once the new shit
15:32	pppppaul	now universities are doing nodejs and other crap
15:32	drewc	borkdude: because universities do not teach software development but programming, and that is a widely used programming language?
15:32	pppppaul	they once did smalltalk too
15:33	muhoo	sometime in the 90s it seems like universities got turned into trade schools
15:33	jaen	pppppaul: really? what universities do node?
15:33	muhoo	and corporations said "we want Java!" and uni's obliged
15:33	drewr	borkdude: because it was easier than C++, and the promise of write-once-run-anywhere
15:33	Wild_Cat	also, Java has a cleaner design than C++
15:33	pppppaul	jean, i dono because i don't care about universities cept for MIT. i've heard at least one doing nodejs in the usa
15:33	Wild_Cat	(although not as clean as a teaching language should be)
15:33	nuclearsandwich	drewc universities claim to teach SE, whhen all they know is CS. So you get a crappy education in both CS and SE
15:33	ibdknox	Java is much easier to teach theory with than C++ is
15:34	borkdude	ibdknox I agree on that.
15:34	nuclearsandwich	instead of a thorough grounding in CS that lets you build your own SE career if you want
15:34	nuclearsandwich	at least that's my observation, as I enter my 7th year as a Math/CS undergrad
15:34	Wild_Cat	yeah. It's hard to teach beginners about algorithms when before doing anything you have to grasp pointers and manual memory management.
15:34	ibdknox	yep
15:34	borkdude	I think a first programming language should have a REPL nowadays
15:34	jaen	Well, maybe Java has a clean design, but by the virtue of not doing almost anythin at all ; /
15:34	Bodil	"At least it's better than C++" actually sold this?
15:34	Wild_Cat	they get bogged down in the unnecessary details.
15:34	drewr	drewc: how do you like Clojure compared to CL? I don't see very many converts. CL isn't lacking any power it seems.
15:35	nuclearsandwich	Wild_Cat: I dunno, I had a much easier time groking data structures in C than Java because I understood how it all translated to assembly. Whereas java requires you to know jvm semantics
15:35	Wild_Cat	jaen: that's the thing -- it tries very had to be foolproof. It does so by aiming for blandness and mediocrity, but it mostly succeeds.
15:35	drewc	nuclearsandwich: I have to agree with you there 100% ... I actually do want to go back to uni for CS, simply because I have been asked to and will be a proff as well as a student, but also do not want to take SE because I know more about the then the proffs do.
15:35	ibdknox	nuclearsandwich: that's only true because you had some grounding in assembly
15:35	ibdknox	most don't
15:35	muhoo	i remember java was sold back in the day as "C++ without memory allocation nightmares", and "write once, run everywhere!" and such hype
15:36	nuclearsandwich	ibdknox: that's fair. I learned assembly when I was a kid. All the actually programming didn't come until later.
15:36	Wild_Cat	muhoo: a lot of it is true. At the very least, Java brought automatic memory management into the mainstream, and for that it deserves praise.
15:36	nuclearsandwich	drewc choose your uni carefully
15:36	pbostrom	yeah "write once, run anywhere" was a big selling point in the beginning
15:36	nuclearsandwich	It matters a ton rightnow.
15:36	jaen	Wild_Cat: It's a point about algorithms being hard to teach when chasing pointers (that's for example why I used Haskell to write the article for the algorithms course), but a programmer has to at some point learn about how the computer really works. And going Java only hardly helps in that regard.
15:37	Wild_Cat	jaen: you can learn how the metal works once you grasp the basics of data structures and algorithms.
15:37	borkdude	I remember writing my first Java program. I thought it was very verbose and slow to start. I never looked at Java gain until uni
15:37	Wild_Cat	jaen: it's easier than being forced to learn both at once as a perfect noob
15:37	drewc	drewr: well, what comparison are you looking for? I 'like' some things, and there are many things that I do not like and will not use... and compared to CL, well, please show me mutiple implementations that follow that same standard :)
15:37	Wild_Cat	because frankly, they're orthogonal.
15:37	muhoo	in the case of java, it is so popular with corporations because it mirrors the structur of them
15:37	borkdude	my colleagues are very keen on keep using Java in education
15:37	jaen	That's why I would prefer a Scheme + C combo for CS introduction with them being taught one after other
15:38	borkdude	I don't know why - maybe they just hate learning other languages
15:38	jaen	Wild_Cat: it's a point, but I see a lot of people not caring about close to the metal
15:38	Wild_Cat	jaen: note that I agree with you that at some point, one has to learn C.
15:38	drewc	nuclearsandwich: well, one of my friends is a prof at the local University, and we agree on a number of things and I actually own his book ... so likely there :)
15:38	jaen	Once they learn about GCs and such
15:38	muhoo	it's bureaucratic, and heirarchal, just like a corporation.
15:38	nuclearsandwich	drewc cool, what school?
15:39	Wild_Cat	jaen: oh, sure. Heck, I don't care about being close to the metal. I like ultra-high-level stuff, because I believe that programmer time is more important than CPU time.
15:39	drewc	nuclearsandwich: this school, for this guy: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~gregor/
15:39	Wild_Cat	...although it is important to have some people who enjoy writing OS kernels and device drivers.
15:40	muhoo	so i think it is cultural. it was funny, for example, watching linus try to sell git to google, they couldn't grapple with the decentralized approach. "but there's no central server!" heirarchy is deeply built into the enterprise mindset
15:40	muhoo	</philosophical digression>
15:40	Wild_Cat	in a perfect world, I'd use Haskell and Smalltalk as teaching languages.
15:41	Wild_Cat	in a non-perfect world, I believe Python is a great language for beginners -- not to mention it's excellent as a general-purpose lang.
15:41	jaen	And even if we disregard the ctm tangent, I really prefer a flexible language which Java, again, is not. I understand that it tries to target the center of the mean programmer, but I don't agree it's a good idea
15:41	pppppaul	mpenet, i am trying out knit
15:41	jaen	Mediocre programmer won't become great in mediocre language but it will impede good programmers, I think.
15:41	pppppaul	i would like to get it printing out stuff in the nrepl console... any suggestions?
15:42	Wild_Cat	jaen: Java, in many ways, addresses the sad truth of the job market, which is that most programmers are, at best, mediocre.
15:42	drewr	drewc: not sure; I'm always curious when I see a CL guy around :)
15:42	jaen	So I'm kind of sad that's most of the time CS introduction promotes mediocrity.
15:42	Wild_Cat	and those programmers, when given C++, will make things that haunt maintenance programmers for decades.
15:42	Wild_Cat	when given Java, they can only manage to haunt them for years.
15:42	drewr	drewc: especially one who rubs elbows with Gregor!
15:42	jaen	Wild_Cat: yeah, that's probably it, but that doesn't make me less sad.
15:43	Wild_Cat	on the plus side, the JVM is a cool idea.
15:43	jaen	Oh yes, I think it's a good platform, that's for sure
15:43	drewc	drewr: well, I am a little bit of a 'famous' CL guy, so what I say is not quite to relevant to other languages :P
15:43	drewc	drewr: great /nick btw! :D
15:44	Wild_Cat	although I really dislike what Oracle is doing with it these days. I mean, ask.com toolbar? On a 10-minute delayed install? Really, guys?
15:44	drewr	"drewr/c: causing more work for autocompletion since 2013"
15:45	TimMc	drewr, drewc: Whichever of you is looking at going to a university, where are you looking?
15:45	jaen	Wild_Cat: on an interesting note I find myself much more happier when I code C and chase pointers than when I write websited in RoR or struggle with liferay in Java.
15:45	drewc	drewr: and, fwiw, `whois common-lisp.net` <---- Drew Crampsie is me .
15:45	drewc	TimMc: likely http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~gregor/
15:45	jaen	I find low-level stuff way easier to understand than having to understand all that code someone else wrote.
15:46	Wild_Cat	jaen: that's hard to compare. Chasing pointers in C is not a functional domain. Writing websites is ;)
15:46	muhoo	jaen: thank you. i've found for quite a while a parallel between c and clj, and couldn't figure out what it is
15:46	drewr	drewc: I remember you from #emacs 12 years ago :)
15:47	muhoo	the commonality may be simplicity
15:47	drewc	drewr: autocomplete? surely you type on a qwerty keyboard! drewr is even easier!
15:47	drewr	I didn't want to say it...
15:48	jaen	Wild_Cat: maybe that means I'm as un-functional as it gets. Because I do quite agree that doing real complicated systems in C would be a nightmare.
15:48	TimMc	drewc: Most of the classes in a standard CS curriculum would probably be useless to you.
15:48	drewc	drewr: that is entirely possible ... still in #emacs today for that matter ... just decided to move into 'common' lisp rather then "Commn Lisp" so clojure and scheme as well
15:48	drewc	TimMc: yup, hence why I do not have to take them ...
15:48	Wild_Cat	jaen: yeah, C is great for its intended purpose -- OS kernels and tiny bits of performance-critical code.
15:49	drewc	TimMc: I have been offered an internship with a lot of 'courses' that I will not need to take but will 'pass'
15:49	drewr	drewc: No Lisp Left Behind
15:50	drewc	TimMc: I probably will not go back, but Gregor on a sailboat ... well I live on a sailboat, and own AMOP, and talk to him... so simply having that 'education' is worth it... regardless of if its official or not ... I do not think I will fire myself if it turns out that I am not a CompSci Graduate
15:51	jaen	muhoo: that's an interesting angle. Both C and Clojure aim at being mostly simple with occasional weirdness here and there, at least as far as I can tell.
15:51	drewc	drewr: 2013 is going to be a big year for "common common" lisp itself imo ... already started! http://alpha.common-lisp.net/
15:53	Wild_Cat	jaen: I don't really see that many common points between C and any of the Lisps, TBH
15:54	Wild_Cat	...in fact, one of my main criticisms of C is that C programs are about as far from homoiconicity as you can go. C compilers spend so much time parsing and reparsing unnecessary text.
15:54	jaen	Wild_Cat: I'm not sure if that would be how I would have thought of it myself, but if you think about it
15:55	Wild_Cat	C macros and include files make me sad, especially since I learned Turbo Pascal before C.
15:55	borkdude	drewc why is CL going to be big again in 2013?
15:55	jaen	Both C and Scheme are about as basic implementations of the respective impertivey and functionaley paradigms as it gets
15:55	drewc	borkdude: I do not know, why?
15:55	drewr	drewc: ah yes; how is quicklisp doing btw? I haven't seen any cl-gardeners traffic in a while
15:55	ohpauleez	borkdude: I think it was on a Mayan calendar or something
15:55	drewc	was it ever big?
15:55	jaen	At least that's how I understood muhoo
15:55	borkdude	drewc why would 2013 be big for CL
15:55	TimMc	drewc: "2013 is going to be a big year for "common common" lisp itself"
15:56	Wild_Cat	jaen: you could go much, much simpler than C.
15:56	jaen	And as for homoiconicity I have a bit of a love-hate relationship with it - I love the idea of macros, I still can't get over parentheses, still somewhat unparsable to me ; /
15:56	drewc	drewr: quicklisp is going great .. in fact, I am planning on having a common-lisp.net quicklisp dist
15:57	drewc	borkdude: I do not know, why?
15:57	Wild_Cat	jaen: Clojure helps a lot with that -- it adds just enough syntax to make the whole thing readable.
15:57	drewc	TimMc: note the "common common" ;)
15:57	Wild_Cat	(vector/set/map syntax was Clojure's really good idea, and I wish CL or Scheme had it)
15:57	borkdude	drewc because you said it's going to be a big year for CL. my question: why?
15:58	drewc	borkdude: my question
15:58	drewc	:
15:58	TimMc	drewc: What is "common common" lisp?
15:58	jaen	Wild_Cat: regarding the simpler-than-C: probably, though I haven't seen anyone go there, at least practically; as for Clojure: yeah it's better than CL/Scheme, but it's still a bit hard on me, even with additional brace types; it maybe a fault of mine a bit, since most programs I wrote in Clojure were thing I hacked quickly together in one or two days
15:59	jaen	And some functions were left unbroken over several indentations level since that how the code flowed.
15:59	Raynes	cemerick: Asciidoc is pretty cool.
15:59	jaen	I need to get better at partitioning stuff in lisp, that probably will help a lot.
15:59	Raynes	I started writing a novel for giggles in it last night.
15:59	Wild_Cat	jaen: me too, tbh. I'm still a massive Clojure noob.
15:59	cemerick	Raynes: Yup. It is the local maxima.
16:01	Raynes	cemerick: Only thing that bothered me is that I didn't see a way to split a file up into logical units, like chapters.
16:01	ssmolau	What black magic must occur so that my repl see the environment variables exported by my bash.rc?
16:01	borkdude	Raynes what advantages does it have compared to org-mode?
16:01	cemerick	Raynes: and keep each section in a different file, you mean
16:01	cemerick	?
16:01	drewc	TimMc: well, for some reason, Common Lisp was a standard, that was meant to unite things that Lisps did in Common, but is now used as the name of a programming language that meets the ANSI standard... I do not program in just that language ... I use threads, and continuations, and sockets, and iolib for 'proper' pathnames .... But the same code I use can be used on other implementations, though it is non standard. S
16:01	drewc	o what common lisps have in common.
16:01	mcohen3	question about Clojure's answer to the static type fanatics... if i have a function that returns a map with several keys, and i consume this function from numerous other places in my app, if the structure of that returned map ever changes, client code calling that function may break. in java, i would be returning an object of some class, and if i changed the structure of that class in the same way, client code calling that fun
16:01	mcohen3	ction would simply not compile. what is clojure's answer to that problem? tests?
16:01	Raynes	borkdude: The fact that it isn't org mode and thus it can be edited properly in more than one editor and has tooling I can actually use.
16:03	borkdude	Raynes tooling like?
16:04	Raynes	borkdude: I can basically do "a2x -fepub file" and get a readable epub file out of my book.
16:04	cemerick	or mobi or pdf or html...
16:04	Raynes	Yes.
16:04	dnolen	mcohen3: be careful, or contribute to core.typed
16:05	Raynes	I can also style my book with css if I want, apparently, and the documentation makes this easy.
16:05	technomancy	drewc: is there something specific you're looking for in multiple implementations, like escaping the JVM?
16:05	technomancy	or is it just a principled thing?
16:05	borkdude	Raynes I didn't try it but org-mode can export to docbook, which can export to epub etc - I searched for something like markdown, etc but I'm happy with org-mode for what I need now
16:06	drewc	technomancy: I am not a pro clojure dev, so no idea about JVMs at all.
16:06	borkdude	(which is html, pdf, etc)
16:06	mcohen3	dnolen :) ok, i just wasn't sure if there was something i was missing
16:07	Raynes	borkdude: Yeah, and that's what a2x does. But it's there. I just type a2x and it's done. I don't have to learn Emacs commands and stuff. They have a whole page on writing books in asciidoc and it's just like 2 pages long.
16:07	technomancy	drewc: sure, I mean do you want an alternate implementation because there's something wrong with this one, or just because you don't like the idea of an implementation-defined language?
16:07	borkdude	Raynes ok, cool
16:07	seangrove	Oh god, I just figure out why korma wouldn't connect - somehow jdbc won't let me connect to postgres over localhost
16:08	drewc	Raynes: lol ... http://alpha.common-lisp.net/projects/cl-org-mode/index.html to https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/smug.org to http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html#sec-5 ... now I can not use emacs and still use org-mode syntax! :P
16:08	seangrove	Whereas psql and rails are just fine with it. Aliasing any domain to 127.0.0.1 worked. Ugh.
16:10	borkdude	Raynes can you do this with asciidoc? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15011355/org-mode-counter-for-items-visible-in-export/15012114#15012114
16:11	drewc	technomancy: Mu ... there is no definition of Clojure beyond the implementations afaik... so not liking is not relevant, I would prefer an R1RClojure , but then again, I stopped using 'new' things for programming quite a while ago ... It turns out that there is more money involved (for me) doing things "My Way" :)
16:11	Raynes	I doubt it, but I don't want to.
16:11	borkdude	Raynes I don't mean to convert you, just exploring if it can do what I want right now
16:11	Raynes	Well, org-mode is just really for a different use case.
16:11	Raynes	It's pretty powerful. I don't really need powerful though, I need a simple plain text format that I can write my text in.
16:12	Raynes	Actually, I don't even need that since I'm not actually going to write a book right now.
16:12	Raynes	But I wanted to play with some stuff for when I actually do.
16:12	borkdude	Raynes what are you going to write your book in then?
16:12	borkdude	Raynes sorry, misread
16:13	Raynes	When I continue my Clojure book I'll probably do it in asciidoc.
16:13	Raynes	No Starch wants it done in openoffice, but I don't think I can do that.
16:13	Raynes	I don't have it in me to write a book like that. It's a terrible experience and I'm writing for fun and not profit.
16:13	borkdude	Raynes I was happily surprised by what org-mode can do, but also I'm beginning to see its limitations. Btw, org-mode can export to odt as well.
16:13	Raynes	Not good enough.
16:14	Raynes	They have this special template stuff that no plain text format can output to.
16:14	Raynes	I looked over every odt-outputting plain text format there is and none of them would work with their stuff.
16:14	devn	could you transform it and then give it to org?
16:14	technomancy	kernel is from the axis of eval guy?
16:14	borkdude	hmm
16:14	Raynes	devn: Huh?
16:15	drewc	technomancy: http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html
16:15	Raynes	devn: I could have written my own outputter for pandoc or something that would do what I want, but I was contracted as an author for No Starch and not an engineer.
16:15	devn	nod
16:16	drewc	technomancy: So, Manuel Simoni is involved, but it is John N. Shutt who wrote the docs that matter :)
16:16	technomancy	seems like having a publisher assume authors would be OK with a word processor is a bad sign
16:16	technomancy	IIRC manning used to assume word (!) until a few years ago
16:17	borkdude	The Joy of Clojure was compiled using this: https://github.com/fogus/trout
16:19	hiredman	dnolen: the impossiblity of efficient implementation means never having to justify yourself
16:19	technomancy	hiredman: I thought that was Ola
16:19	pandeiro	anyone know why the heroku lein template would compile with ring-devel <=1.1.8 but not 1.2.0-beta1, something involving ring.util.request ?
16:19	hiredman	technomancy: him too
16:19	weavejester	pandeiro: What's the exact error?
16:20	pandeiro	weavejester: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: myapp.web
16:21	TimMc	Raynes: Do it in LaTeX.
16:21	weavejester	pandeiro: What's the whole stack trace? Can you require the namespace in a REPL?
16:21	cemerick	technomancy: If you give a programmer a tool, odds are she'll implement something "better", regardless of the qualities of the original offering.
16:22	devn	Did I tell you guys about my awesome version of clojure without parens?
16:22	pjstadig	dnolen: what makes it hard to understand the appeal of Kernel?
16:22	Raynes	TimMc: Get out of my internet.
16:22	pandeiro	weavejester: when i try to load that namespace in the REPL, a message about ring.util.request not being on the classpath appears; but that is not anywhere in the stacktrace when i run `lein run -m myapp.web`
16:23	weavejester	pandeiro: Try a lein clean? Sometimes that works
16:23	dnolen	pjstadig: what hiredman said
16:23	TimMc	Raynes: What, are you allergic?
16:23	pandeiro	weavejester: had tried that already.. let me paste the stacktrace
16:23	TimMc	Try NiTrIlE.
16:23	Raynes	TimMc: Yeah, I break out in hives.
16:23	pjstadig	dnolen: so i guess you meant was "it doesn't appeal to me because it can't be made performant"
16:24	pjstadig	which is fine, but people could still find it appealing for other reasons
16:24	TimMc	(That should exist, dammit.)
16:25	pandeiro	weavejester: http://sprunge.us/jVfK
16:26	weavejester	pandeiro: Well, all that tells me is that myapp.web is not on the classpath...
16:26	drewc	pjstadig: heh ... the same thing was said about lexical scope .... it was 'slow' for interpreted code, but discovered because the compiled code 'accidently' did it... So was 'faster'. Imagine that, lexical scope can/cannot be made performant! :P
16:26	bbloom	dnolen: isn't kernel just an experiment in fexprs?
16:26	pandeiro	weavejester: yeah i know (?) ... and it is, of course ... it works fine with ring-devel 1.1.8
16:26	dnolen	pjstadig: it's not just about performance - that's just falls out the difficulty (from what I can tell) in applying any kind of analysis.
16:27	borkdude	TimMc I wrote a large document in latex but I'm now converting to org-mode, because I want to change it's content a bit and latex just distracts me too much from the content ..
16:27	weavejester	pandeiro: What's the error you get in the REPL when you require the namespace?
16:27	dnolen	pjstadig: but sure, I guess some people find that fun. But people also find Brainfuck fun, so whatever.
16:27	antares_	https://twitter.com/ClojureWerkz/status/305066453353246720
16:27	pjstadig	there's a whole thesis on the vau calculus and making the theory of fexprs non-trivial
16:27	antares_	woops, meant for #leiningen, sorry :)
16:28	pandeiro	weavejester: FileNotFoundException Could not locate ring/util/request__init.class or ring/util/request.clj on classpath: clojure.lang.RT.load (RT.java:443)
16:28	pjstadig	maybe it can't me made performant (which seems like an argument from silence?), but performance isn't the sum total of appeal for everyone
16:28	borkdude	TimMc and actually code blocks, inline code etc writing in org-mode and then generating .tex works better (for me) than writing in latex: no weird things happen when string literals are used in inline code etc
16:29	pjstadig	i don't particularly feel the need to crap on someone just because they're pursuing something different than what I would pursue
16:29	TimMc	antares_: You know what I'd like to see in ClojureWerkz? A push for detailed changelogs.
16:29	antares_	TimMc: so are you saying that clojurewerkz.org projects changelogs are not useful?
16:29	weavejester	pandeiro: Ah, ring.util.request. So that indicates your dependency is still pulling in an old ring-core.
16:29	Raynes	antares_: You clojurewerkz guys should get me set up with a website for laser.
16:29	antares_	TimMc: how much more detailed can be it? We don't want to jam a copy of the docs into the change log :/
16:29	weavejester	pandeiro: Try "lein deps :tree" and see if anything is pulling in an old Ring dep
16:29	drewc	pjstadig: great read too, the $vau thesis ... and helped my increase performance for my first implementation by quite a bit.
16:29	antares_	Raynes: when is your birthday?
16:30	Raynes	antares_: 20 days ago.
16:30	Raynes	lol
16:30	drewc	Raynes: happy belated!
16:30	Raynes	Thanks.
16:30	antares_	Raynes: so, in ~345 days we will see if there's anything to reveal :)
16:30	TimMc	antares_: Oh, you know what? I thought timbre was a "member project", but it's not.
16:30	Raynes	Hehe
16:30	antares_	TimMc: timbre is Peter's library. He usually does all the right things but yeah, not change logs.
16:31	pandeiro	weavejester: compojure 1.1.5
16:31	TimMc	So never mind. :-D
16:31	pandeiro	so i use :exclude ?
16:31	Raynes	I was waiting to release 1.0.0 of laser.
16:31	weavejester	pandeiro: Or just have [ring/ring-core "1.2.0-beta1"] as an explicit dependency.
16:31	pjstadig	drewc: yeah i've read the thesis
16:31	Raynes	Which I'm totally gonna do tonight.
16:31	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
16:31	Raynes	Weeee.
16:32	pandeiro	weavejester: ah of course, better.. thanks
16:32	weavejester	pandeiro: Dependencies in your project.clj take precedence over second-degree dependencies
16:32	TimMc	antares_: You know what I don't see enough of, in general? Mentions in the changelog of what bugs were introduced in a given version.
16:32	TimMc	That's super-classy stuff, right there.
16:32	antares_	TimMc: we started using issues more actively for what we find. I wish github had a nice way to link to issues :(
16:32	weavejester	pandeiro: I guess you've just added [ring "1.2.0-beta1"], which depends on [ring/ring-core "1.2.0-beta1"]
16:32	weavejester	p
16:33	TimMc	antares_: Beyond #42?
16:33	antares_	right now we sometimes add GH issue: #20 or something like that to the change log
16:33	TimMc	yeah
16:33	pandeiro	weavejester: yeah that's it
16:33	antares_	TimMc: #42 does not resolve from a markdown file in the repo
16:33	weavejester	pandeiro: But [compojure "1.1.5"] depends on [ring/ring-core "1.1.6"] so the two ring-core deps are of equal importance. I think when that happens the first one is picked.
16:33	antares_	TimMc: but thanks for the suggestion, I agree that it is a good idea
16:33	antares_	TimMc: what projects do you use, by the way?
16:34	pandeiro	weavejester: wow so if i reversed the order of the deps, it would work? trying that...
16:35	weavejester	pandeiro: Maybe. I can't remember exactly how it works.
16:35	patchwork	How do you guys feel about using `resolve` to break circular dependencies up across namespaces?
16:35	pandeiro	weavejester: sure enough, you are right
16:35	dnolen	pjstadig: I should read the thesis. But the idea that certain design choices might make basic kinds of static analysis intractable unappealing. So I haven't bothered. But that's me.
16:36	patchwork	So any forward references can just call (resolve qualified-name) to access a function yet to be defined?
16:36	pandeiro	i actually don't understand why the heroku template requires ring-devel and not core in the first place
16:36	pjstadig	dnolen: i get what you're saying, and i think i agree, but i've not seen any kind of formal analysis of the unanalyzability of Kernel
16:37	bbloom	i'm beginning to think, more and more, that it's preferable to have more sublanguages with well defined semantics and narrower applicability
16:37	pandeiro	oh, maybe stacktrace
16:37	bbloom	because you can express interesting ideas more susinctly and with more opportunities for static analysis
16:37	pandeiro	but wouldn't it be a best practice for the heroku template to make the ring-core dep explicit, since it uses ring.middleware.session.*, too?
16:40	finishingmove	what's Clojure used for, commonly? what kind of applications? (i'm new)
16:41	pjstadig	bbloom: that why i find macros appealing, you can extend syntax in a way that translates to well known, well analyzed, well optimized forms
16:41	pjstadig	which seems like an easier route
16:41	dnolen	pjstadig: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fexpr talks a bit about the issues
16:41	pjstadig	"In 2007, John N. Shutt proposed an extension of lambda calculus that would model fexprs without suppressing rewriting of operands, in an attempt to avoid Wand's result."
16:41	drewr	finishingmove: anything; it's as general purpose as Java
16:42	dnolen	pjstadig: I also don't find reassuring that nearly every academic Lisper I've encountered pretty much has told me Kernel is horrible idea. Not that academics have all the answers or anything.
16:42	pjstadig	the thing with fexprs is that everyone goes to Wand, but Stutt claims to have avoided the problems that Wand brings up
16:42	pjstadig	er.. Shutt
16:42	finishingmove	drewr, that's cool.. :) any trends though?
16:43	finishingmove	it's kind of a stupid question but u know what i mean i guess
16:43	pjstadig	dnolen: yeah, don't get me wrong, i have reservations about Kernel myself, but i still find it interesting in a way
16:43	pjstadig	it's and uphill battle to defend fexprs
16:43	pjstadig	so you gotta give the guy props
16:43	drewr	finishingmove: it's all over the map -- web, science, prog lang research, data, you name it
16:43	borkdude	finishingmove if you look at cemerick's survey, clojure is mostly used for web dev - but this doesn't mean it can't be used for other areas. web dev is probably just a popular field
16:44	pjstadig	Wand basically killed fexprs in the 80s
16:44	borkdude	finishingmove http://cemerick.com/2012/08/06/results-of-the-2012-state-of-clojure-survey/
16:45	finishingmove	cool, thanks for the info
16:46	TimMc	antares_: I think timbre is the only one from that page.
16:46	TimMc	It's definitely a site I check when I need a lib.
16:49	frozenlock	Raynes: ping
16:50	frozenlock	Any reports of clojail misbehaving once uberjared?
16:51	borkdude	which languages allow shadowing of local variables in nested scopes? clojure, but not Java and C#
16:51	borkdude	some more examples?
16:51	borkdude	local variables / locals
16:52	dnolen	borkdude: seems like nearly every major functional programming language right?
16:52	borkdude	dnolen I'm trying to give an example to students who don't know functional languages
16:52	technomancy	borkdude: ruby does now, but it used to screw it up in 1.8
16:54	bbloom	borkdude: SQL
16:55	antares_	TimMc: file an issue about it ;)
16:56	Raynes	frozenlock: Define misbehaving.
16:56	TimMc	antares_: Yeah, good idea.
16:56	antares_	TimMc: what clojurewerkz libraries do you use, by the way?
16:58	frozenlock	Raynes: That misbehaving---> "java.security.AccessControlException: access denied ("java.lang.RuntimePermission" "createClassLoader")"
16:58	borkdude	I came up with this javascript example https://www.refheap.com/paste/11679 but this uses an anonymous function, is there an easier way to create a scope?
16:58	TimMc	antares_: None of the member projects, it turns out.
16:58	Raynes	frozenlock: And you're running this jar with `java -jar my.jar`?
16:58	antares_	TimMc: hahahaha
16:58	frozenlock	Raynes: yup
16:58	antares_	TimMc: it's ok. Some day. It's unavoidable ;)
16:59	TimMc	antares_: I was surprised to not see an Amazon S3 project in there. I'm in the market for one.
16:59	Raynes	frozenlock: Try java -Djava.security.policy=example.policy -jar your.jar
17:02	frozenlock	Raynes: It works.
17:03	pppppaul	is there an easy way for me to tell if my application is running via nrepl?
17:03	frozenlock	Raynes: would it be possible to just drop the policy in the resources?
17:03	Raynes	frozenlock: I don't know of a way. There probably is, but you'll have to google around.
17:04	frozenlock	Time to stretch my google-fu!
17:04	frozenlock	Thanks for the help :)
17:15	TimMc	pppppaul: Like, whether it was launched from the command line vs. calling (-main) in the REPL?
17:16	TimMc	pppppaul: If so: https://github.com/baznex/crosscram/blob/gui-demo/src/crosscram/demo.clj#L341
17:17	Bodil	dnolen: Oh, I see what you meant about compiler support now...
17:17	dnolen	Bodil: heh :)
17:18	dnolen	Bodil: yes since we don't have vars, you must do var trickery through the analyzers namespace atom
17:18	dnolen	Bodil: but you can easily do that in your macro.
17:19	dnolen	deftest macro or whatever
17:19	Bodil	dnolen: That's what I'm doing now. Which makes me realise I don't much like the deftest/run-tests pattern.
17:21	bbloom	Bodil: core.test isn't my favorite bit of clojure either
17:22	hiredman	b
17:22	hiredman	b
17:22	TimMc	Looks like someone forgot to pay their / bill today and ran out.
17:23	TimMc	pppppaul: Basically, my approach is "Don't do that, then."
17:44	seangrove	In Korma, should the transform function be called whenever calling (select my-entity...)?
17:44	seangrove	It never seems to be applied
17:53	pppppaul	TimMc, ok
17:53	pppppaul	i just didn't want my repl running rabbitmq code
17:53	pppppaul	cus... that's just weird
17:54	TimMc	I figure that an explicit alternate entrance point is less trouble than some context-detecting magic.
17:58	devn	Is it possible to alias *1 to something else?
17:58	TimMc	devn: What behavior would you like to see?
17:58	pppppaul	but... i want to become a magician
17:58	devn	$1 does exactly what *1 does
17:59	devn	(def $1 *1) or somesuch
17:59	devn	im wondering if it's even possible
17:59	TimMc	devn: Set up a watcher to copy values over. :-)
17:59	devn	without wiring up an atom or something
17:59	devn	yeah TimMc -- just curious if there's a simpler way
17:59	TimMc	THat's pretty simple.
18:01	TimMc	devn: This is what you have to work with: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/main.clj#L261
18:09	ravster	in tools.logging, and when using log4j, does the log4j.logger.user=DEBUG property only use that logger when we are in the user namespace?
18:09	TimMc	devn: If you don't mind implementation details: (.refer ns '$1 #'*1)
18:10	ravster	thats what I'm getting from the readme, but how would that make sense in a project with numerous namespaces?
18:16	ravster	nvm, just found with-logs
18:22	seangrove	Ah, figured it out - later (defentity ...) calls were overriding previous ones
18:23	abp`	Hm, should as-> support :as? Currently it doesn't.
18:26	ravster	how does one set the logging level in tools.logging?
18:29	technomancy	ravster: by reading lots and lots of documentation
18:31	ravster	technomancy: apparently :) . I should add a bunch of stuff to the readme when I figure all this out.
18:31	technomancy	java logging is a quagmire
18:39	bbloom	technomancy: understatement of the year
18:43	abp`	More specifically: Should as-> support destructuring and restructuting? Currently it does/n't. (as-> (range 2) [one two :as numbers]) => [0 1 :as (0 1)] but (as-> (range 2) [one two]) => [0 1] It's just not checking for destructuring but using let under the hood.
18:50	patchwork	technomancy: We just implemented our own logging, way simpler
18:51	technomancy	patchwork: I've been meaning to try timbre
18:51	technomancy	but yeah, rolling your own is better than dealing with the nightmares of seven-layer logging cake
18:51	patchwork	Well, we tried that first
18:51	patchwork	I didn't realize beforehand what we were getting ourselves into
18:51	patchwork	I wish someone had warned us
18:51	technomancy	oh?
18:52	technomancy	leiningen just uses println plus a couple dynamic vars (debug? etc)
18:52	patchwork	we tried java logging first I mean
18:52	patchwork	I don't know how much time we dropped dealing with all the crazy
18:52	technomancy	oh, gotcha
18:52	technomancy	part of the problem is some level of logging config is unavoidable if you use certain java libs
18:52	technomancy	so you see reasonable people doing it, and you think to yourself "that must be a reasonable thing to do"
18:53	technomancy	but you don't realize they're not doing it out of choice
18:53	bbloom	i agree: printing some semi-standard syslog formatted plain text lines is by far the best way to go
18:53	dnolen	interesting subtle behavior of declare I never really thought about: (def x 1) (def x), x is still bound to one.
18:53	technomancy	bbloom: I'm surprised how effective k=v style logging is
18:54	patchwork	It's really all you need. We added some stuff in front to be able to redirect output to different hosts etc
18:54	patchwork	based on our own (simple) configuration
18:54	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, i was surprised when i saw the source of the `declare macro, but then i realized that it made sense: 'def is a primitive and `declare is not, so that has to be the behavior such that declare can be implemented in terms of def
18:54	patchwork	though I suppose that is already going down the road of damnation
18:55	bbloom	technomancy: i've seen XML loggers in production.. cringe
18:55	ravster	patchwork: yikes. that doesn't bode well for me.
18:55	patchwork	ravster: just getting into java logging?
18:55	ravster	patchwork: ya
18:56	patchwork	ravster: roll your own, it will save you hours of pain
18:56	ravster	I've spent the last 30 minutes trying to figure out how to set the log level for a program run
18:56	patchwork	unless like technomancy says you are forced to use it because of a dep
18:56	bbloom	technomancy: the best part of using syslog style logging is that you can trivially migrate from stderr to "real sys log" by checking out to be a dgram socket
18:56	patchwork	bbloom: That is exactly what we are doing!
18:56	bbloom	it's connectionless and unreliable, but on any sane modern unix, local dgram sockets are basically memcopy
18:56	patchwork	good old dgrams
18:56	dnolen	bbloom: yes cljs was doing the wrong thing, ran into a surprising bug
18:57	patchwork	now I am thinking I should release our setup as a lib
18:57	bbloom	dnolen: cljs' def behavior is strange in general... the top level should be clj not cljs
18:57	bbloom	(when false (def x 1))
19:01	TimMc	dnolen: I believe defonce makes use of that def behavior.
19:02	technomancy	I like how tools.logging doesn't let you change log level at runtime because it's not supported across all backends
19:06	ravster	patchwork: is your logger opensource?
19:06	patchwork	It is part of a larger project
19:06	pppaul	i desire log
19:06	patchwork	I am thinking about releasing though
19:06	ravster	oh okay
19:07	patchwork	through popular demand
19:07	ravster	patchwork: :D
19:09	pppaul	i will fork it and rename it to b-log
19:10	pppaul	patchwork, our first goal with a logger is to reduce the performance penalty of (println\(pprint
19:10	pppaul	what do you think?
19:12	patchwork	That is certainly a worthy goal
19:12	patchwork	mine was just to make it simpler
19:12	patchwork	but I think in the process, it is faster as well
19:13	patchwork	(since it is just throwing packets at a dgram socket)
19:13	patchwork	I will have to test it though, and make a project for it
19:15	antares_	ravster: use https://github.com/ptaoussanis/timbre instead
19:16	antares_	unless you need to use SLF4J or log4j in a legacy codebase, there is absolutely no reason to use tools.logging. Timbre is better, easier to use and you can contribute to it without hassle.
19:16	patchwork	antares_: That looks pretty good!
19:21	ambrosebs	How can I tell clojure-maven-plugin not to `compile` files? I just want whatever lein does for releases/tests.
19:30	ravster	good stuff.
19:42	dnolen	yow
19:43	dnolen	solving Zebra under CLJS core.logic is now down to 13ms
19:44	ohpauleez	dnolen: That's insane. congrats
19:44	dnolen	^not-native is pretty darn useful
19:50	dnolen	it takes about 8 seconds in latest Racket, we're doing pretty good!
19:50	bbloom	dnolen: heh :-)
19:51	ohpauleez	dnolen: Where is ^not-native documented
19:51	ohpauleez	?
19:51	dnolen	ohpauleez: nowhere
19:52	dnolen	it's experimental and new
19:52	ohpauleez	ahh, cool
19:54	dnolen	ohpauleez: it just eliminates dispatch overhead on protocol invocations
19:55	ohpauleez	ahh, awesome
20:04	ivaraasen	dnolen: got any recommendations for CS books? currently on a shopping spree
20:28	dnolen	ivaraasen: concepts techniques & models of computer programming
20:36	frozenlock	Raynes: FYI https://www.refheap.com/paste/11688.
20:39	alandipert	Raynes: https://github.com/tailrecursion/hiprepl clojail ftw!
23:24	Raynes	alandipert: Go Alan, go Alan.
23:26	alandipert	Raynes: 8-)
23:31	Raynes	alandipert: You should come visit me in LA.
23:31	Raynes	It's only like 2.5k miles.
23:38	alandipert	Raynes: i just may dude, i got peoples in san diego and am out there periodically
23:44	sshack	What's the recommended way to do SSL in a ring/compojure app? let apache terminate the SSL for you (more moving parts), or will ring/jetty handle it for me?
23:47	frenchyp	sshack: I'd like to know too. For what it's worth http-kit says to handle it with a nginx front end
23:48	sshack	frenchyp: Fair enough. I'll consider nginx as a synonym for apache in that case.
23:48	frenchyp	yes, of course
23:48	xeqi	clojars uses a nginx frontend
23:48	xeqi	also helps for serving static files through it
23:49	sshack	xeqi: True. I'm just thinking from an operational perspective. there's also the static serving portion of ring.
23:49	sshack	The fewer moving parts I can have, the happier I am. "scaling" isn't an issue for me.
23:58	frozenlock	http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ThreadMacroFromClojure