#clojure – 2013-02-19

2013-02-19

00:14	Raynes	callenbot: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23745600/Screenshots/bRgP.png Think I'm doing a good job moving to laser?
02:07	callenbot	Raynes: nice.
02:07	callenbot	Raynes: one of my main problems with clabango is that I'm not too sure it escapes HTML. This...concerns me.
02:10	Raynes	callenbot: In previous releases of laser, strings were always escaped. Now strings are always escaped unless you wrapped them in a special type, forcing you to actually think before you throw unescaped text into your html.
02:11	callenbot	Raynes: that's more or less what I'd like to clabango. At some point I'm going to need to buckle down and fix it because the next site I am making has users exposed to each others' input.
02:11	callenbot	to do in*
02:11	Raynes	I keep discovering little things that need to be added/changed as I go along in refheap. Once I'm done with it I'll release 1.0.0.
02:14	Raynes	callenbot: Also happy to report that I'm not far from finishing up the move to laser in refheap. I buckled down and did biggest part today, since it was a holiday.
02:16	callenbot	Raynes: you had a holiday today?
02:16	callenbot	god fucking dammit
02:16	Raynes	presidents day!
02:16	callenbot	I need to leave the startup world.
02:18	callenbot	Raynes: are you working out of a branch?
02:18	Raynes	Yes.
02:19	callenbot	Raynes: code's like a sniper rifle, but awful specific about the markup.
02:19	callenbot	Raynes: looks a lot more practical than enlv.
02:20	Raynes	callenbot: I'm not sure what 'like a sniper rifle' means in the context of code. :p
02:21	callenbot	Raynes: it reaches out and touches things.
02:21	callenbot	with an economy of effort.
02:21	Raynes	I think you mean like a laser.
02:21	Raynes	I'm having serious trouble telling whether you're saying you hate it, or...
02:22	Raynes	These phrases are bizarre.
02:22	Raynes	:P
02:22	callenbot	Raynes: I like it, but I don't know if it's for me yet or not.
02:22	callenbot	Raynes: it's definitely won out over enlive and I'll start sending people that way if they like enlive.
02:22	Raynes	Well if you don't like enlive (and you don't), you probably won't like laser either just because it's generally the same concept.
02:23	Raynes	Right, I see what you mean.
02:23	Raynes	"I don't care for this style of templating, but I prefer your library over the other one regardless."
02:23	Raynes	Appreciated, sir.
02:23	callenbot	Raynes: I'm not really sure what I'd use if I wasn't using clabango.
02:24	callenbot	I think I'm better off thatching the roof danlarkin made.
02:25	Raynes	Heh
02:25	Raynes	I wonder...
02:26	Raynes	~hmmm, when suddenly...
02:26	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
02:26	Raynes	Aw.
02:26	Raynes	~suddenly
02:26	clojurebot	BOT FIGHT!!!!!111
02:26	Raynes	callenbot: He used to have a thing where he'd say "CLABANGO" a couple of years ago when you did that.
02:26	callenbot	that's awesome.
02:26	callenbot	I love how bots are unpredictable.
02:27	Raynes	There was something else named clabango back then.
02:27	Raynes	I can't remember what that was all about.
02:27	Raynes	~suddenly
02:27	clojurebot	BOT FIGHT!!!!!111
02:27	Raynes	~suddenly
02:27	clojurebot	BOT FIGHT!!!!!111
02:28	Raynes	I know it's in there somewhere.
02:29	Raynes	callenbot: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2010-08-08.html#03:13
02:29	Raynes	Apparently danlarkin planned something called clabango several years ago, but only recently actually did a project with that name.
02:30	Raynes	Maybe he'll give us a history lesson one dya.
02:30	Raynes	day*
04:49	NeedMoreDesu	Is there something like (arity-match? f arity) function, returning true/false?
04:50	NeedMoreDesu	Where f is function, arity is integer.
05:42	alexnixon	NeedMoreDesu: not in the general case, as far as I'm aware. You can look at the :arglists metadata if you have a var though.
05:47	xsyn	Hi all, I wonder if you can help
05:47	xsyn	I've been building a project with lein
05:48	xsyn	and everything has been fine
05:48	xsyn	but I've recently added the clojure-csv library
05:48	xsyn	and no matter what I do, I get this:
05:48	xsyn	user=> (use 'clojure-csv.core)
05:48	xsyn	4 #<FileNotFoundException java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure_csv/core__init.class or clojure_csv/core.clj on classpath: >
05:48	xsyn	I've check in my ~/.m2 and it's there
05:48	xsyn	I'm not sure what to do?
05:54	ucb	xsyn: check lein classpath see if the jar is there
05:55	xsyn	it is
05:55	ucb	strange
05:56	ucb	well, rather, I don't know what might be happening :)
05:56	xsyn	:) thanks
05:57	xsyn	I even cracked open the jar to check that it was there, and everything seems fine. I suspect this is a case of user error
06:24	borkdude	I'm trying to rebuild some examples from https://github.com/relevance/org-html-slideshow - there is a command "git submodule update" which doesn't seem to to anything
06:26	borkdude	hmm https://www.refheap.com/paste/11462
06:32	vijaykiran	borkdude: did you try git clone --recursive ?
06:33	vijaykiran	borkdude: which version of git are you using ?
06:33	borkdude	aaah, no I didn't
06:33	borkdude	vijaykiran this is actually the first time I see such a recursive git project
06:38	borkdude	vijaykiran tnx, it works
06:41	vijaykiran	borkdude: yw :)
06:46	augustl	any suggestions for SOAP clients for Clojure? I'm new to the JVM as well so not familiar with the various libraries I could interop with.
06:50	xsyn	ucb: turns out that you need to restart your nailgun when you add new libraries. The reason it couldn't find it from the repl is that the repl was loaded before the code was added
06:51	ucb	xsyn: oh, nailgun!
06:51	ucb	makes sense :)
06:51	ucb	I assumed this was fresh JVMs all around
06:51	xsyn	yeah, I had forgotten about it, and was making the same assumption
06:52	xsyn	the repl I use for editing uses vimclojure, and as such....
08:16	gfredericks	does anybody have a jquery externs file for 1.7.1 (or whatever)?
08:17	gfredericks	the link in the jayq README 404s
08:35	mpenet	gfredericks: that sucks. I will try to fix that
08:36	gfredericks	mpenet: thanks :)
08:36	mpenet	it was here: http://code.google.com/p/closure-compiler/source/browse/#git%2Fexterns
08:36	mpenet	but for some reason the jquery externs disapeared
08:37	mpenet	gfredericks: ok http://code.google.com/p/closure-compiler/source/browse/#git%2Fcontrib%2Fexterns
08:38	borkdude	what is the most "common" way to add TODOs to an org-mode document without creating extra headings (so extra structure) for it
08:39	borkdude	I can of course add comments
08:39	gfredericks	borkdude: a TODO has to be on a heading...so depends what you mean by "extra" I guess?
08:39	gfredericks	mpenet: sweet, thanks!
08:40	borkdude	gfredericks I'm writing documents with org-mode, I want to remind myself to fix some things in the document, but I don't want to change the toc etc, just to add some todos
08:40	gfredericks	hm
08:40	borkdude	more like "inline todos"
08:40	gfredericks	I do slides in org-mode and I end up with a * Meta heading at the top for stuff like that
08:41	gfredericks	which is exactly not inline
08:41	gfredericks	so I guess I don't know an easy way to do what you want
08:41	gfredericks	headings are complected!
08:41	borkdude	gfredericks just curious: how do you export your org-slides?
08:41	gfredericks	html export, the use the org-html-slideshow lib
08:42	borkdude	gfredericks built by stuart sierra et al?
08:42	gfredericks	yep
08:42	borkdude	gfredericks great, I was experimenting with it and I like it
08:42	borkdude	gfredericks one thing that got me though was that MathJax doesn't work in presentation mode :(
08:42	gfredericks	really?
08:43	gfredericks	does MathJax run some JS at startup?
08:43	borkdude	gfredericks not out of the box at least
08:43	borkdude	gfredericks yes, I think so
08:43	gfredericks	I have a fork that gives you hooks for manipulating the slides after rendering
08:43	gfredericks	that should probably give you a straightforward way to make it work
08:43	borkdude	gfredericks I also tried #+OPTIONS: LaTeX:dvipng which got me into some -shell-escape problem
08:44	gfredericks	I don't know anything about that :/
08:44	borkdude	gfredericks good, does it allow javascript to be executed?
08:44	gfredericks	borkdude:as in "rather than clojurescript"?
08:45	gfredericks	it's a regular callback, so yeah you can do anything you want
08:45	borkdude	gfredericks I guess I can call mathjax from there
08:45	gfredericks	exactly
08:45	gfredericks	I used it to make an interactive slideshow
08:45	borkdude	gfredericks I was just trying the standard mathjax stuff which org-html-export puts in
08:46	borkdude	gfredericks I opened an issue for it, but I have not yet the solution myself https://github.com/relevance/org-html-slideshow/issues/12
08:46	augustl	are there any libraries out there that reads XML and outputs hiccup-like data?
08:47	borkdude	augustl why, isn't the "parse" output good enough?
08:47	augustl	borkdude: what are you referring to with "parse"?
08:48	borkdude	augustl http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.xml/parse
08:48	augustl	ah
08:49	gfredericks	borkdude: https://github.com/fredericksgary/org-html-slideshow/blob/com.gfredericks/src/cljs/org_html_slideshow/main.cljs#L282
08:50	gfredericks	borkdude: I'd like to extend that so you can add handlers based on the class of the slide
08:50	gfredericks	(helpful since you can add custom classes to slides in org-mode by just adding more tags)
08:50	borkdude	gfredericks cool, I will look into this later this afternoon
08:50	gfredericks	so e.g. I have slides that want to show two <pre> areas side-by-side, so I mark those with a special class and have a handler than rearranges the html
08:51	borkdude	gfredericks cool
09:16	borkdude	gfredericks I have smth weird here: I cloned your repo, but I don't see the callback changes in the code, while I see it on github...
09:18	borkdude	gfredericks ah fixed, it's only in that branch I see
09:18	gfredericks	borkdude: ah yes, sorry
09:19	gfredericks	the com.gfredericks branch is supposed to correspond to the clojars artifacts under the com.gfredericks group
09:19	gfredericks	I kept it off master because I was hoping tamer stuff would get merged back into the main project, but I'm less hopeful about that now
09:19	gavilancomun	Hi. Is it possible to use the new reducers with clojure 1.4.0? I can only find examples using 1.5 beta.
09:20	gfredericks	gavilancomun: I don't think they're included with 1.4
09:21	gavilancomun	OK, thanks.
09:23	borkdude	gfredericks you removed the clj sources from this branch? https://github.com/fredericksgary/org-html-slideshow/tree/com.gfredericks/src
09:23	gfredericks	probably? I removed clojurescript one, maybe that was related
09:23	borkdude	gfredericks I was trying to build
09:24	gfredericks	there aren't too many commits, I think the messages are probably meaningful
09:26	borkdude	gfredericks ah so lein cljsbuild once
09:26	gfredericks	sure
09:27	borkdude	gfredericks yeah, it works :-) (at least, my dummy callback, now let's try to include some mathjs stuff)
09:27	gfredericks	nice
09:31	gfredericks	borkdude: how're you using it? from your own cljs project?
09:32	borkdude	gfredericks how do you mean?
09:33	gfredericks	borkdude: just curious whether you're modifying org-html-slideshow inline, or using it as a lein dep
09:33	borkdude	gfredericks now I'm modifying inline
09:33	borkdude	gfredericks just to see if I can get it working
09:33	gfredericks	cool
09:33	gfredericks	I think I went out of my way to make it more usable as a library than the original
09:34	borkdude	gfredericks I might consider doing that later
09:34	borkdude	gfredericks I'm kind of new with clojurescript and all this, even org-mode
09:35	gfredericks	it's definitely more of a toolchain to wrangle than powerpoint
09:36	arkx	lein-cljsbuild doesn't support --debug flag to Google Closure Compiler?
09:36	borkdude	gfredericks yeah, I like it a lot
09:37	dnolen	arkx: lein-cljsbuild can only support what ClojureScript itself supports passing through to Closure
09:38	arkx	Right. ClojureScript itself doesn't support --debug flag? It seems pretty useful.
09:39	arkx	I'm still hunting down the bug from yesterday. It wasn't related solely to doseq after all. Instead whenever the advanced compiler decides to emit one function as global function s, it's broken, and whenever it uses u or t instead all works... Really irritating to debug.
09:40	arkx	Some other part of the generated code or some library is overwriting the global function s to undefined... sigh.
09:42	borkdude	how do I call MathJax.Hub.Startup.onload() in Clojurescript, like this? (.onload MathJax.Hub.Startup)
09:42	xsyn	Does anybody here use VimClojure
09:42	xsyn	?
09:43	dnolen	arkx: that doesn't really make sense - are you sure own code isn't redef'ing something?
09:45	borkdude	or (MathJax.Hub.Startup/onload) ?
09:46	xsyn	I've been using vimcloure, and it's been great, with lein
09:46	dnolen	borkdude: (.onload js/MathJax.Hub.Startup ...)
09:46	xsyn	trouble is I recently made a bunch of changes to my code, passed the function to the vimclojure repl
09:46	xsyn	and nothing happened
09:46	xsyn	had to restart the nailgun server
09:47	xsyn	surely this isn't the best workflow
09:47	xsyn	am I doing something incorrectly
09:47	borkdude	dnolen trying
09:48	arkx	dnolen: at least not on purpose. Switching away from advanced mode makes all errors disappear.
09:58	dnolen	arkx: yeah I'm skeptical that adv mode overwrites anything (as long as it handles all source files) unless it is happening somewhere in your own code.
10:00	dnolen	arkx: that said advanced mode is tricky, there are many things which work outside of advanced that don't work under advanced. doing property stuff with strings is a big no no and an easy way to run into trouble.
10:00	arkx	At this point I'm betting it's some js plugin we use.
10:00	arkx	Like jQuery datatables..
10:00	dnolen	arkx: and you're using the jQuery extern file and everything is going through closure?
10:00	arkx	Yep.
10:01	arkx	The externs file for jQuery.datatable is hand-written though.
10:01	borkdude	does it matter to javascript if I pass a persistentvector or an array
10:02	borkdude	I mean: do I need to do something special if javascript expects a normal array
10:04	dnolen	borkdude: passing CLJS to JavaScript is not a good idea
10:04	borkdude	into-array presumably then
10:04	dnolen	borkdude: we have cljs->js in core now
10:04	borkdude	dnolen I want to attach a callback function in clojurescript and call a js function that expects an array
10:04	dnolen	borkdude: which handles all the relevant data types
10:05	dnolen	and is extensible to your own data types
10:05	borkdude	dnolen ok
10:06	ChongLi	marshalling and unmarshalling :(
10:07	arkx	dnolen: anyway, what do you think about adding support for the --debug flag? Seems pretty useful to me until we get source maps
10:07	dnolen	arkx: what does it do?
10:07	dnolen	arkx: link?
10:08	borkdude	probably I'm doing smth terribly wrong, but I get this: return MathJax.Lb.Zc(tc.b(V(["Typeset", MathJax.Lb])
10:08	dnolen	borkdude: yes because you're using MathJax w/o an externs file
10:08	arkx	https://code.google.com/p/closure-compiler/wiki/FAQ#My_code_broke_when_using_advanced_optimizations!_How_do_I_figure
10:08	dnolen	and running some level of optimization greater than whitespace
10:10	borkdude	dnolen yes, I figured that out :-s
10:10	borkdude	dnolen I'm new to clojurescript, sorry
10:11	dnolen	arkx: open a ticket. it'll move faster if I get a patch.
10:12	dnolen	borkdude: hrm tho it shouldn't munge if you're using a leading js/ like I said earlier.
10:12	borkdude	dnolen hmm
10:13	borkdude	dnolen I'm doing this now (.Queue js/MathJax.Hub (into-array ["Typeset",MathJax.Hub]))
10:15	dnolen	js/MathJax.Hub, foreign stuff always needs leading js/
10:15	borkdude	yes, it works!
10:16	borkdude	dnolen probably this was a caching thing
10:16	dnolen	borkdude: good to hear was about to get worried there :)
10:16	borkdude	dnolen I can try again now with pretty-print turned off
10:19	borkdude	does lein cljsbuild / the clojurescript compiler recompile if the source didn't change?
10:19	borkdude	lein cljsbuild once
10:19	arkx	Nope.
10:19	borkdude	shit, without pretty-printing it doesn't work
10:20	dnolen	borkdude: if you're going to be making many changes auto would be much faster
10:20	borkdude	dnolen I was only changing the compilation settings, not the source
10:20	borkdude	dnolen but to be sure I deleted the compiled file
10:21	borkdude	dnolen guess something is wrong after all
10:21	borkdude	I might be using an old clojurescript version - how do I tell?
10:21	dnolen	borkdude: that it wouldn't work w/o pretty-printing doesn't make much sense
10:22	borkdude	dnolen do you mean, I would need an externs file even when I use js?
10:22	dnolen	borkdude: you only need externs if you're compiling MathJax w/ your own code.
10:22	borkdude	dnolen I don't
10:22	dnolen	then no need
10:23	dnolen	borkdude: that said it's easy to make simple mistakes w/ CLJS compilation - have you looked at http://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs?
10:23	borkdude	dnolen I have this code (.Queue js/MathJax.Hub (into-array ["Typeset",MathJax.Hub])) but it gets translated to MathJax.Lb.Zc(pb.b(V(["Typeset", MathJax.Lb]))
10:24	dnolen	borkdude: hrm, I don't know and I gotta run, ask your question on the CLJS ML, people are pretty active there
10:24	borkdude	dnolen tnx!
10:24	dnolen	borkdude: it maybe a bug with js/, though I'm surprised this hasn't come up before
10:24	borkdude	actually I gotta run too, but will ask this later.
10:25	dnolen	if it is
10:25	ravster	hello all
10:25	bendlas	hi all
10:26	bendlas	Question: In core.logic (run* [q] (fd/in q (fd/interval 3 3))) throws right now
10:26	bendlas	is this intended or a bug?
10:26	bendlas	dnolen: can you tell?
10:30	TimMc	stuartsierra: Hey, how have y'all been testing apps for unbound read-eval? When I set -Dclojure.read.eval=unknown in a leiningen project, clojure.main blows up...
10:30	stuartsierra	sorry, busy
10:30	TimMc	kk
10:31	TimMc	Well, the question is really for anyone who has done so.
10:39	dnolen	bendlas: checking
10:41	dnolen	bendlas: yeah that's a bug, I don't think that ever worked, file a ticket please
10:50	TimMc	This is just sad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scala_%28programming_language%29#Syntactic_flexibility
10:52	ravster	do people prefer liberator or using ring directly for auth?
10:53	NeedMoreDesu	What is the most straightforward way to hold recource file outside of jar in lein?
10:54	NeedMoreDesu	I wish to write in that file, not only read it.
10:56	deg	I need to transform equal-sized subsequences of a list. I know I can partition the list and then use mapcat to transform each piece and put them back together, but I'm looking for an idiomatic way to avoid constructing temporary small lists.
10:57	deg	For example, a cleaner way to say (mapcat (fn [[var val]] [(symbol var) val])
10:57	deg	(partition 2 raw-bindings))
11:09	ChongLi	deg: I don't think there's an idiomatic way to do it without some kind of deforestation/fusion library
11:09	gfredericks	constructing temporary small lists is totally idiomatic :)
11:11	TimMc	deg: Unless you can show a severe performance hit, it's not worth trying to avoid those allocations.
11:12	ChongLi	haskell's got some advantage in this area
11:12	ChongLi	ghc rewrite rules are pretty nice
11:13	ravster	Whats the best way to have a system do a basic-auth OR cookie-auth? I'm thinking of using the ring libs for that directly.
11:13	ChongLi	you can probably do the same thing with macros but it'd be tricky
11:14	ravster	Remvee's code looks like it would fail if a request comes in without basic-auth , even though it might still have a cookie
11:17	gfredericks	ChongLi: and then you'd be using macros :(
11:19	TimMc	ChongLi: I think deg's use-case is a macro.
11:20	pocho	Is there a better way to get all of the values in a map than (map (fn [x] (get x 1)) (seq my-map))
11:20	TimMc	vals
11:20	bbloom	pocho: ##(doc vals)
11:20	lazybot	⇒ "([map]); Returns a sequence of the map's values."
11:21	TimMc	$findfn {:a 1 :b 2} [1 2]
11:21	TimMc	(Slow, or broken?)
11:21	lazybot	[clojure.core/vals]
11:21	olenhad	Hey folks, do namespace based operations (use, require ) etc compile down to js/require when you're compiling for node?
11:22	Bodil	olenhad: No, it still uses Google Closure's package system on Node.
11:24	ChongLi	I wish there was an asynchronous version of auto-complete.el :(
11:24	ChongLi	ac-nrepl is so slow
11:31	NeedMoreDesu	Why use ac when there is nrepl-indent-and-complete-symbol?
11:31	ChongLi	good question
11:32	ChongLi	it doesn't seem to work in clojurescript
11:33	NeedMoreDesu	didn't try it in clojurescript, sorry.
11:33	Bodil	It does with auto-complete?
11:33	ChongLi	let's see here
11:33	ChongLi	nope, it pops up nrepl-error
11:34	ChongLi	I had just been using ac-source-dictionary
11:34	ChongLi	and yasnippet etc.
11:34	Bodil	Yeah, it did sound a bit strange, as Piggieback doesn't rebind anything but eval...
11:35	NeedMoreDesu	Ac can be very slow on low number of letters
11:35	ChongLi	ac is slow because it's synchronous
11:35	ChongLi	they had the same problem doing clang completion
11:36	ChongLi	blocking the UI while talking to a server is not a good idea
11:36	Bodil	ChongLi: Somebody should write an async version of auto-complete. :)
11:36	ChongLi	I wonder if this would apply?
11:36	ChongLi	https://github.com/BinaryPeak/kdcomplete
11:37	gfredericks	#datomic is pretty inactive :/
11:38	Bodil	ChongLi: Oh, that looks _very_ interesting...
11:41	ChongLi	the author puts closing parens on their own lines :(
11:41	clojurebot	author is hiredman
11:41	TimMc	haha
11:42	TimMc	hiredman: Oh snap, did you see what the bot just said about you?
11:42	ChongLi	fantastic stuff
11:42	NeedMoreDesu	Wait, how do you need to put closing parens?
11:42	Bodil	ChongLi: That's pretty much as discouraging as catching somebody indenting with tabs :(
11:44	ChongLi	speaking of which, something in emacs is inserting tabs randomly
11:44	ChongLi	I have no idea where to start looking
11:45	TimMc	NeedMoreDesu: Consecutive closing parens are generally stuck together with no intervening whitespace.
11:46	TimMc	It's just a style thing. There's no syntactic significance, but if you give each closing paren its own line, people will look at you as though you are wearing your underpants on the outside.
11:47	craigbro	hey, I sometiems put a closen paren on it's own line
11:47	NeedMoreDesu	Ah, I see the code now.
11:47	gfredericks	craigbro: come on man underpants go on the inside
11:47	TimMc	I've done it very occasionally, where it really made sense. Can't remember why that was.
11:47	NeedMoreDesu	I do put, but close and format afterwards.
11:47	craigbro	specifically, if the containing form is explicitely a list of "things to do" -- like shell scripting commands
11:48	ChongLi	only time I do that is when I comment something out with paredit-comment-dwim
11:48	ChongLi	which forces the closing parens to a new line on its own
11:48	TimMc	craigbro: Yeah, that sounds about right. But you end up with two chunks of parens, not a sequence of lines each with a single paren.
11:48	craigbro	yah, I don't do the staircase thing, on purpose
11:49	NeedMoreDesu	With one exeption: when it's convinient to have plain lines between parens, like large list.
11:49	ChongLi	this is the code we're all talking about:
11:49	ChongLi	https://github.com/BinaryPeak/kdcomplete/blob/master/kdcomplete.el
11:49	ChongLi	kdc-create-completion-types makes my eyes bleed :(
11:50	TimMc	There's definitely some clothing layer inversion going on there
11:50	ChongLi	at least he didn't use camelCase
11:50	rboyd	maybe he gets paid by the line
11:50	NeedMoreDesu	Still, how do I make some resource in the folder near uberjar? I can't edit resource when it's in uberjar, where lein place them.
11:50	ChongLi	if this was clojure I bet he'd have used commas all over the place too!
11:51	ChongLi	resources aren't meant to be edited afaik
11:52	NeedMoreDesu	Well, it's config files.
11:53	ChongLi	(System/getProperty "user.home")
11:53	ChongLi	something like that
11:53	ChongLi	just start spitting files in there :)
11:54	NeedMoreDesu	I'd like to place them all in a folder near .jar
11:54	ChongLi	where is the .jar going to be stored on the client machine?
11:55	NeedMoreDesu	Sort of anywhere. It's runnable.
11:55	ChongLi	it's generally bad form to put user config stuff in places like that
11:55	ChongLi	since the .jar may be run by different users
11:56	ChongLi	and you may not have write permissions there
11:57	NeedMoreDesu	Hm, ok, that may make sense.
11:58	ChongLi	yeah this was a big problem for legacy windows applications
11:58	ChongLi	which would store their configs in the program directory
11:59	alexnixon	Is it a bug that (realized? some-cancelled-future) returns true, despite the docstring which states "Returns true if a value has been produced for a promise, delay, future or lazy sequence."? A related consequence is that an exception is thrown if you attempt to print a cancelled future, whereas printing an agent which saw an error prints the exception.
12:01	TimMc	,(doc future)
12:01	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a future object that will invoke the body in another thread, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent calls to deref/@. If the computation has not yet finished, calls to deref/@ will block, unless the variant of deref with timeout is used. See also - realized?."
12:01	callenbot	TimMc: is it safe to use future to do work in the background from a parent thread that will close before the future finishes?
12:02	TimMc	I believe so.
12:02	callenbot	cool, just trying to avoid needing to use a queue.
12:02	TimMc	(I was just checking the docs above, it was not by way of an answer.)
12:04	alexnixon	,(let [f (future (Thread/sleep 10000)] (future-cancel f) (prn "realized?" (realized? f)) (prn f))
12:04	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.security.PrivilegedActionException: java.lang.reflect.InvocationTargetException>
12:04	alexnixon	:-(
12:05	hiredman	that is an unmatched delimiter exception
12:06	TimMc	alexnixon: Missing a paren in the let binding.
12:06	alexnixon	,(let [f (future (Thread/sleep 10000))] (future-cancel f) (prn "realized?" (realized? f)) (prn f))
12:06	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: no threads please>
12:06	alexnixon	:-(
12:09	hiredman	,(let [f (future (Thread/sleep 10000)] (future-cancel f) (prn "realized?" (realized? f)) (prn f))
12:09	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: ]>
12:09	hiredman	~botsnack
12:09	clojurebot	botsnack is scoobysnack
12:09	alexnixon	well, the output is "true" and then a CancellationException is thrown, which to me feels like a bug as it's inconsistent with the behaviour of other implementators of clojure.lang.IDeref (agents and delays)
12:10	alexnixon	the problem being that (I believe) the intended semantic of `realized?' is "if we deref the IDeref, will we get a value?". And that's broken for cancelled futures.
12:11	augustl	are there any libraries out there for calling a function daily, another function hourly, etc? Other than using cron, of course.
12:12	rboyd	augustl: there's https://github.com/michaelklishin/quartzite
12:13	augustl	rboyd: thanks
12:23	augustl	hmm, Quartz seems to be very fond of singletons
12:34	dnolen	bbloom: ping
12:34	bbloom	dnolen: pong
12:34	dnolen	bbloom: http://jsperf.com/om-vs-pam-vs-phm
12:35	dnolen	so threshold at 8 seems fine to me
12:37	bbloom	dnolen: ok, sounds good
12:37	bbloom	dnolen: so let's get OM out of there :-)
12:38	dnolen	bbloom: heh, not quite there yet - situation does look as good in other browsers - and I'm curious if we can do better if the compiler understands ^not-native fns
12:39	dnolen	"doesn't look as good in other browser" I mean
12:41	progo	do you know good clojure projects that used nested namespaces in a good fashion? I'm looking for an example
12:42	borkdude	nested namespaces do not exist as far as I know
12:43	progo	well, just multi-part named namespaces then :)
12:43	bbloom	borkdude: huh? you can just have ./foo/bar.clj and ./foo.clj
12:43	bbloom	borkdude: that works fine
12:43	progo	I've always written very short namespaces/modules and I'm starting to feel uncomfortable with 500-line files
12:44	bbloom	progo: that's something that took me a while to get used to as well: my rails files were generally ~50 lines max
12:44	bbloom	(except user.rb, which is always a mess :-P)
12:44	borkdude	bbloom those aren't nested namespaces, those are just two namespaces whose name reflect a directory structure
12:44	bbloom	borkdude: so then what exactly is a "nested namespace"?
12:44	borkdude	bbloom I would say a namespace that lives inside another namespace
12:45	bbloom	progo: 500 lines is getting big, but you should only break it up once you have clear layers/components
12:45	bbloom	borkdude: i think you're arguing semantics
12:45	borkdude	bbloom yeh probably
12:45	bbloom	progo: like the ClojureScript compiler which has one big compiler.clj at around 2,000 lines. that got broken in half into analyzer.clj and compiler.clj
12:46	progo	bbloom: yeah it consists of hiccup-based page templates and some helpers
12:46	bbloom	progo: just like you shouldn't prematurely optimize or prematurely generalize, you shouldn't prematurely organize :-)
12:46	bbloom	basically, -ize-ing is bad prematurely :-P
12:46	progo	bbloom: yeah... Might have done that sometimes :p
12:47	borkdude	izing on the cake
12:47	progo	perhaps I should altogether move hiccup-templates to user-configurable space and load-eval them in later on.
12:48	abp	dnolen: Just ran it on my Galaxy S2 in Android Chrome, it's listed as Chrome 18.x, so don't let those results annoy you..
12:50	dnolen	abp: hehe, no it's always good to get mobile numbers
12:50	dnolen	abp: a pretty fast device
12:51	bbloom	dnolen: abp: yeah, wow, phones are getting fast....
12:51	abp	dnolen: It's just that it's not listed as 'Mobile', so quite misleading. I think Chrome 18 Desktop would be much faster.
12:51	dnolen	abp: I find it hilarious that you're mobile device is competing w/ FireFox nightly
12:52	dnolen	er I mean 18
12:52	abp	dnolen: Yeah gave me a stop too. Chrome's crazy. Now running in the native browser..
12:52	abp	Next up: Ipad3 :D
12:52	dnolen	FF nightly is actually doing pretty good, especially PAM numbers
12:52	dnolen	er PHM
12:52	dnolen	:P
12:53	abp	dnolen: Did not expect that too. Thougt they were still improving on memory usage. ;x
12:54	arkx	dnolen: turns out it was a piece of Flex code defining single-letter global variables through ExternalInterface.
12:54	abp	dnolen: What the.. even faster!
12:54	dnolen	arkx: heh, yuck
12:54	arkx	My thoughts exactly..
12:57	abp	Chrome on iOS is a disaster. Thanks Apple. :)
12:57	dnolen	abp: yeah no JIT'ing I believe
12:59	abp	dnolen: Safari isn't doing any better. So my old smartphone is faster than the IPad 3..
12:59	craigbro	heh
13:00	abp	Or at least the browsers are lightyears ahead.
13:00	bbloom	abp: it's basically only useful for sending tabs to my ipad for reading in bed
13:02	abp	Problem is they don't allow other browsers. All get to use UIWebView.
13:02	abp	Even more horrible than safari.
13:02	dnolen	abp: well I just added iPad mini numbers, they seem only slightly better than Chrome iOS
13:03	borkdude	does clojurescript have a separate mailing list?
13:03	dnolen	borkdude: it does
13:03	borkdude	dnolen I googled but only found discussion on whether it should exists
13:04	dnolen	borkdude: http://groups.google.com/group/clojurescript
13:04	borkdude	dnolen tnx, I will post my issue now there
13:05	borkdude	dnolen before I post, what relevant version info should I include?
13:05	dnolen	borkdude: I'm assuming your using lein-cljsbuild?
13:05	dnolen	0.3.0?
13:05	borkdude	dnolen yes
13:06	dnolen	it just pulls the latest, just post your issue
13:06	AtKaaZ	hi, could anyone help me out with this: https://gist.github.com/AtKaaZ/4988320
13:07	TimMc	arkx: This is the doseq issue? How did Flex interfere exactly?
13:08	borkdude	dnolen done
13:08	dnolen	TimMc: it writes JS globals via ExternalInterface
13:08	dnolen	abp: btw, you can emit your CLJS code w/ a wrapper
13:09	TimMc	I wouldn't expect rogue globals to interfere with doseq.
13:09	dnolen	TimMc: it will interfere w/ everything, doseq was a red herring
13:09	abp	dnolen: Huh?
13:09	TimMc	Huh, OK.
13:09	dnolen	abp: oops sorry
13:10	abp	dnolen: np. :D
13:10	dnolen	arkx: ^ see my comment above about emitting w/ a wrapper
13:12	TimMc	Does that imply that CLJS will (by default) write its own single-letter globals?
13:12	arkx	In advanced mode Google Closure Compiler writes single-letter globals
13:12	TimMc	Oh, gross/
13:13	arkx	dnolen: I was unaware of that. How?
13:13	TimMc	So... it's a collision of two latent bugs.
13:13	AimHere	Probably makes sense if you're optimising JS for space; presumably it renames all your own single letter globals from cljs
13:13	dnolen	TimMc: well just short name globals - a non-issue if you control the source.
13:13	dnolen	TimMc: Closure behavior is not a bug
13:15	dnolen	arkx: :output-wrapper true in your cljs-build :compiler options
13:15	arkx	Ah, beautiful.
13:15	arkx	Thanks.
13:15	dnolen	arkx: np
13:16	AtKaaZ	,(eval '`{:a (+ 1 2) :b ~(+ 1 3)}) ;can you replace the "eval '`" part with a macro ? so it's (xmacro {:a (+ 1 2) :b ~(+ 1 3)}) but returns same result
13:16	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
13:16	dnolen	arkx: it may be incompatible w/ ^:export, but I'm not sure
13:16	TimMc	dnolen: Misfeature, then. In JS, you can't really expect to always be the only one playing in the sandbox.
13:17	arkx	I first suspected some JS libraries we were using, but they all used 'var' correctly before their single-letter variables.. gah. :)
13:17	arkx	We're rewriting a Flex client with ClojureScript
13:17	dnolen	TimMc: I've worked on many projects where you can assume that.
13:17	arkx	Didn't think that there was some previous uses of ExternalInterface in that inherited code.
13:18	dnolen	TimMc: and arguably the most complex JS apps in the world written by Google also get away w/ this just fine.
13:18	arkx	Still, missing var from declaration is one of the most common bugs in JavaScript
13:18	bbloom	dnolen: although to be fair, more and more google stuff is moving from closure -> angular :-P
13:18	augustl	I need to subclass a class, create instances of that class, and be able to get the .class of that subclass. Should I just do that in Java? :)
13:18	TimMc	Is there some insignificant cost to wrapping?
13:19	dnolen	arkx: yes, and wrappers won't really save you there.
13:19	bbloom	dnolen: at least closure UI -> angular. closure compiler is likely still in use
13:19	TimMc	Anyway, just because someone successful gets away with something doesn't mean it's a good idea.
13:19	dnolen	bbloom: that's interesting though I haven't heard such rumblings.
13:19	augustl	bbloom: what Google systems are AngularJS now? The only one I'm aware of is the first one, DoubleClick
13:20	TimMc	Safety is a process, and you process is different from theirs.
13:20	TimMc	*your (ugh, insane lag)
13:21	bbloom	dnolen: augustl: nothing pre-exsisting
13:21	bbloom	dnolen: augustl: i just know a few folks working on new(-ish) google stuff w/ angular
13:21	augustl	I see
13:22	bbloom	it also plays nice with closure-ui in the sense that you can embed angular in a div without much pain
13:22	dnolen	bbloom: interesting
13:23	dnolen	TimMc: in anycase, this not a point I care about much. JS is a mutable anywhere anytime language - there's no real protection from anything.
13:26	TimMc	dnolen: You can work to protect yourself from spending a day or two stuck debugging something nasty like this.
13:27	dnolen	TimMc: trying to protect yourself from a library overwriting some global will take you more than a day. Trust me, the NYTimes is most hostile JS environment I have ever seen.
13:27	TimMc	heh
13:28	Raynes	dnolen: Battleship: NYTimes.
13:28	TimMc	What I mean is, if wrapping by default protects developers from anguish and has little cost, it's probably worth it.
13:28	ChongLi	dnolen: would caja help?
13:29	dnolen	TimMc: yes we use wrappers and all that stuff, doesn't fix some library changing a prototype, or overwriting a global namespace with shared data, or a billion other things.
13:29	dnolen	ChongLi: I never looked closely at caja, but I doubt - that's more about eval'ing untrusted sources I thought.
13:30	TimMc	Eh, not trying to solve all those problems.
13:30	ChongLi	hmm
13:31	dnolen	TimMc: the problem is all of a kind. Closure approach of saying - no everything should and must go through this one whole program compile program process is not a bad solution given that.
13:33	TimMc	What can I say, I'm a belt-and-suspenders kind of guy.
13:37	Raynes	gf3: Dunno if you've committed anything on develop, but just a heads up that I've removed develop and master is the primary branch now. It shouldn't matter regardless of your changes.
13:39	AtKaaZ	is there a textual way to type ` like quote is for ' ?
13:40	AtKaaZ	type=write
13:40	Chousuke	no
13:40	Chousuke	at least not in jvm clojure
13:40	AtKaaZ	k
13:40	Chousuke	it's implemented purely on the reader level
13:40	Chousuke	dunno about clojurescript
13:40	AtKaaZ	I'm into jvm only
13:40	bbloom	AtKaaZ: Chousuke is correct, but if it did have a way to write it, it would likely be clojure.core/syntax-quote
13:41	bbloom	Chousuke: clojurescript uses clojure's reader (for now)
13:41	ecmendenhall	Hi, everyone. I'm wrapping some js methods in Clojurescript and wondering about the most idiomatic solution.
13:41	bbloom	AtKaaZ: do you need programatic usage of syntax-quote?
13:41	ecmendenhall	Macros (like `shim` in cljs-d3: https://github.com/lynaghk/cljs-d3/blob/master/src/clj/cljs_d3/macros.clj) need specified arities to avoid trouble with `this`.
13:41	AtKaaZ	bbloom: it appears so, but that's probably because I don't know how to do something
13:42	bbloom	AtKaaZ: what are you trying to do?
13:42	ecmendenhall	Wrapping direcly with lots of `defn`s (eg. jayq: https://github.com/ibdknox/jayq/blob/master/src/jayq/core.cljs) works, but it seems like there should be a better way
13:42	ecmendenhall	...and there's always just learning to accept the interop dot.
13:42	Chousuke	write a macro to write the defns?
13:42	AtKaaZ	bbloom: i sent a msg to clojure ML, but basically a macro that returns same as (eval `(quote {:a (+ 1 2) :b ~(+ 1 3)})) but by replacing "eval `" with macroname :)
13:43	ecmendenhall	(In fact, I see some value in keeping the js methods explicit). Is there some widely accepted solution?
13:44	bbloom	AtKaaZ: github.com/brandonbloom/backtick
13:44	AtKaaZ	bbloom: oh sorry, I mean replacing "eval `(quote" with macro
13:45	bbloom	AtKaaZ: let me know if backtick does the trick
13:45	AtKaaZ	bbloom: will do, thanks so far
13:45	ecmendenhall	Chousuke: Yeah, that's where I started. But it's difficult to use `apply`, which compiles to fn.call(null, …) in js.
13:46	Chousuke	difficult in which way?
13:47	Chousuke	I don't know clojurescript specifics much but I can help with macros :P
13:49	ecmendenhall	Chousuke: js functions that use `this` sometimes break (or at least, they did six months ago).
13:49	mpenet	ecmendenhall: how so?
13:50	dnolen	mpenet: because of fn.call(null, ...)
13:50	Chousuke	can't you write your own apply that handles this explicitly instead of passing null?
13:51	dnolen	ecmendenhall: hmm, actually I'm not sure why you're running into issues
13:51	clojurebot	No entiendo
13:51	mpenet	I never encountered an issue with this. and I use this (via this-as) all the time.
13:52	`abp	I'm preparing my first open source library for release. :)
13:52	dnolen	ecmendenhall: if you look at implementation of apply you'll see we invoke via (.apply f f ... args ...)
13:52	dnolen	in the case of real JS fns
13:53	AtKaaZ	bbloom: template is the macro that I wanted, thanks!
13:54	AtKaaZ	it is freaking amazing :)
13:55	ecmendenhall	dnolen: Thanks, I'll take a look. Actually, I think I'm thinking too far ahead here. I'm not sure I need to worry about `this` anyways. Back to the REPL!
13:59	bbloom	AtKaaZ: nice! thanks :-)
14:14	Frozenlock	Aw cmon, gmail blocks an outgoing email because there's a .exe in a zip file.
14:15	AtKaaZ	lol, does passwording it work? or + encrypt file names
14:19	Frozenlock	changed .zip to .abc -_-
14:19	Frozenlock	Still, I'm really against the idea of gmail deciding what I can and can't send.
14:20	amalloy	vote with your feet, Frozenlock. use another email provider if you're actually "really against" it
14:20	ChongLi	or send files via dropbox!
14:20	pimeys	I have this infinite project to start my own email server
14:20	pimeys	encrypted, in netherlands
14:20	ChongLi	or numerous other services
14:21	Frozenlock	amalloy: thinking about it.
14:21	AtKaaZ	infinite?
14:21	pimeys	sigh, configuring imap/smtp is just so boring
14:21	pimeys	AtKaaZ: because I never start it :D
14:21	pimeys	just talk about it all the time
14:21	Frozenlock	I have my own domain, so I could just use my own mail server.
14:21	AtKaaZ	pimeys: sounds like something I'd do=)
14:21	pimeys	VPS is very cheap now
14:21	pimeys	3,50 euros per month
14:21	pimeys	so I can buy two of them
14:26	bbloom	dnolen: so what's the latest on predicate dispatch?
14:29	dnolen	bbloom: uh, not having time to work on it? :)
14:30	bbloom	dnolen: that's what i figured :-)
14:30	dnolen	bbloom: it's waiting a bit on me finding a couple weeks to dedicate to core.match
14:30	TimMc	Frozenlock: cotse.net is not bad.
14:31	bbloom	dnolen: along the lines of the stuff i was showing you on sunday, i've been exploring some of those ideas via fipp. one of the things i discovered is that i need two tools for processing propertied-trees: a transformation language and a style language. roughly XSLT and CSS
14:31	technomancy	Frozenlock: does it block it on the SMTP level or just from the web UI?
14:31	dnolen	bbloom: I'd like to refactor and document everything - and hopefully it'll be easier to see how you could make something like pred dispatch work.
14:31	bbloom	dnolen: things like Enlive covers XSLT for HTML, but there really isn't a comparable solution for arbitrary clojure trees
14:32	bbloom	dnolen: either way, XSLTs (and CSS for that matter) have a "best matching" behavior, which is very similar to predicate dispatch
14:32	bbloom	dnolen: ie the most specific selector or the most specific xpath query matches
14:32	dnolen	bbloom: right
14:32	bbloom	dnolen: i'd love to do something like that with arbitrary predicate dispatch
14:33	NeedMoreDesu	Why print doesn't print anything to console, but prints to repl?
14:33	bbloom	dnolen: i made fipp to basically be a playground for those ideas :-) so i might dig into predicate dispatch a bit
14:34	dnolen	bbloom: well you could attempt to understand core.match - I don't get much help w/ that projects sadly.
14:34	bbloom	dnolen: i'll definitely look through it a bit
14:34	dnolen	bbloom: probably best to read the paper first - not much of the codebase will make sense otherwise
14:34	Frozenlock	technomancy: Did not check, I'm usually only using the web UI.
14:34	Frozenlock	Yeah I know... I should read my mails in emacs :P
14:34	bbloom	dnolen: i'm rewatching your predicate dispatch talk, since it's been a full year since i thought about this problem. in the process, i have opened all the relevant papers you're mentioning in tabs. heh
14:34	technomancy	not a fan of the UI, but they seem like a reasonable IMAP provider
14:35	TimMc	NeedMoreDesu: The REPL is set up to intercept stdout.
14:35	technomancy	insofar as reasonable and IMAP can go together
14:35	dnolen	bbloom: the Maranget is the most relevant - we only really changed a couple things.
14:35	NeedMoreDesu	TimMc: what should I do, then?
14:35	TimMc	Depends on what you want, I guess.
14:36	NeedMoreDesu	Print to stdout.
14:36	bbloom	dnolen: cool, we'll chat about it more after i have some time to digest
14:36	NeedMoreDesu	And, well, see something on the screen.
14:37	TimMc	You mean, see it once you;ve exited the REPL?
14:37	bbloom	dnolen: in particular, i'm thinking about how to represent XPath or CSS-selector like ideas on arbitrary clojure trees
14:37	NeedMoreDesu	I don't see printed text at all, when I'm not in repl.
14:37	NeedMoreDesu	When program is run via lein run
14:37	TimMc	Wait, what am I thinking... the REPL isn't necessarily capturing stdout.
14:37	TimMc	NeedMoreDesu: lein run isn't a REPL.
14:38	NeedMoreDesu	Yep. print prints to repl only?
14:38	NeedMoreDesu	Is there a way to change that?
14:38	dnolen	bbloom: oh right, somebody had mentioned tree matching - not support for that at the moment - Will Byrd has mentioned cata matching and maybe that's good enough. I know the Chez guys use that stuff int their compiler
14:38	dnolen	so maybe cata matching is good enough for trees?
14:39	AtKaaZ	bbloom: can I resolve them like ` does when using template if I wanted to?
14:40	TimMc	NeedMoreDesu: The behavior you're describing doesn't make sense.
14:41	gfredericks	AtKaaZ: check how template is defined -- you can supply a resolver fn
14:41	AtKaaZ	gfredericks: in process, thx
14:41	TimMc	NeedMoreDesu: I think you need to make a SSCCE.
14:41	TimMc	~sscce
14:41	clojurebot	An SSCCE is a Short, Self-Contained, Correct Example <http://sscce.org/>
14:42	dnolen	bbloom: have you looked much at the Chez compiler literature?
14:42	AtKaaZ	gfredericks, bbloom: done dit it: (defquote like-backtick resolve)
14:43	gfredericks	:)
14:43	AtKaaZ	this is so awesome=)
14:43	NeedMoreDesu	jee, I've just needed to println.
14:43	bbloom	AtKaaZ: gfredericks is right. i think that the real clojure implementation is slightly different than just clojure.core/resolve, let me check for you in a few minutes. i migh tjust add that to backtick directly as backtick/syntax-quote
14:43	bbloom	dnolen: no, i haven't. link?
14:44	NeedMoreDesu	Problem solved.
14:45	dnolen	bbloom: I may be off, but I think any serious dive into compiler approachers for a modern Lisp should probably start here http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/
14:46	Raynes	NeedMoreDesu, TimMc: Funfact: print doesn't automatically flush.
14:46	bbloom	AtKaaZ: gfredericks: yeah, so the difference is between Compiler.resolveSymbol and Compiler.maybeResolveIn
14:46	bbloom	AtKaaZ: gfredericks: one returns symbols, the other returns Vars, value objects, etc
14:46	Raynes	If you use print, you need to do (flush) before you'll see anything.
14:47	AtKaaZ	Raynes: but newline does?
14:47	gfredericks	bbloom: any advantage to backtick/syntax-quote over `?
14:48	AtKaaZ	gfredericks: i can write a macro like this: (xmacro {:a (+ 1 2) :b ~(+ 1 3)})
14:48	bbloom	gfredericks: backtick/syntax-quote doesn't exist, i'm creating it right now :-P but the only real advantage would be the ability to (list* `syntax-quote ...) ie in a macro or something.
14:49	Raynes	$(source println)
14:49	Raynes	Jesus.
14:49	gfredericks	sounds good enough to me
14:49	Raynes	It's my own bot and I can't use it.
14:49	Raynes	$source println
14:49	lazybot	println is http://is.gd/WCT4fo
14:49	AtKaaZ	boot owner, if you typo :)
14:50	Raynes	Anyways, https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/clojure-1.4.0/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L3306
14:51	Raynes	When flush-on-newline is set, prn flushes.
14:51	Raynes	And since println calls prn, you get a flush.
14:51	Raynes	pr (which print calls) does not do this.
14:51	AtKaaZ	cool
14:52	Raynes	println is like one of those automatic toilets with a sensor that flushes when you step away from it. print is a normal toilet with a handle for manual flushing.
14:54	cemerick	Raynes: you need to finish your book, if only so I can see that description in print
14:54	Raynes	Heh
14:59	hyPiRion	That's not far from how System.in works. Except that you receive the stuff flushed from the toilet.
14:59	TimMc	Raynes: I hate those automatic toilets. When I'm wearing a black t-shirt, they randomly decide I've stopped existing.
14:59	hyPiRion	And that you can switch pipes so that the tubes spit out something else instead.
15:00	Raynes	Yikes, hyPiRion.
15:00	Raynes	Saying that after he said that...
15:00	hyPiRion	And the fact that you can remove some screws from the source and get a constant leaking in
15:00	Raynes	Not the best idea ever.
15:00	hyPiRion	Well, I need to get rid of my System.in anger somewhere
15:01	hyPiRion	Comparing it to toilets is a great way of doing it
15:02	`abp	So, Raynes metaphor reaches quite far. Congratulations on a job well done!
15:02	Raynes	I'll pat myself on the back immediately.
15:02	`abp	Instant reward
15:03	`abp	Hm, making conflict free DSVs is hard.
15:04	`abp	It's LISP, just in vectors. Clojures XML.
15:04	`abp	But this time the aspect human readable is actually a truthful guarantee.
15:04	Frozenlock	Is there a way to test lazy stuff in the REPL? For example, when I test a function, everything is fine, but when I try it in production, I find a lazy@sdasfe instead of the actual data.
15:05	gfredericks	I often `(def name expr)` instead of `expr` to keep it from being realized
15:05	gfredericks	well wait
15:05	gfredericks	if you're just talking about printing rather than errors
15:05	gfredericks	s/errors/debugging/
15:05	gfredericks	then you want prn/pr-str, etc?
15:06	Frozenlock	Ok, so instead of just typing 'expr', I should do (pr-str expr)?
15:06	Raynes	That'll do it.
15:08	denlab	watching Clojure/conj 2012 - Lightning Talks / heroku. it's cool
15:09	bbloom	AtKaaZ: almost done with a full syntax-quote macro with resolving. you're not the first person to ask for it, so i figured i'd just get it done
15:10	AtKaaZ	bbloom: awesome, I was just preparing to use just this until then: (backtick/defquote almostLikeBackTick clojure.core/resolve)
15:10	bbloom	AtKaaZ: yeah, that's close. it misses mostly interop forms, like .foo and Bar.
15:13	AtKaaZ	bbloom: also doesn't throw when it doesn't resolve to anything, i just notice it just does nil like (resolve 'f)
15:13	`abp	AtKaaZ: You like camelCase don't you? :)
15:13	bbloom	AtKaaZ: yeah, clojure.core/resolve is pretty different than what you actually need, it only appears to work :-P
15:14	AtKaaZ	`abp: but for the wrong reasons :)
15:15	TimMc	Frozenlock: Or prn
15:15	AtKaaZ	`abp: ie. some-weird-symbol can't be double clicked selected, oh but I just notice it can be triple clicked to select it=) so let's just say I'm reconsidering it
15:16	AtKaaZ	`abp: if only i could move over it with one Ctrl+left/right-arrow when I want to
15:16	`abp	AtKaaZ: Sounds like you don't use Emacs a lot.
15:16	AtKaaZ	`abp: indeed, in eclipse:)
15:18	`abp	AtKaaZ: Let me tell you this: Two weeks into Emacs and in no way looking back. Clojure, paredit, Javascript, orgmode, eshell, dired etc. It's a dream.
15:18	AtKaaZ	`abp: ah, nevermind tripleclick selects entire line, so close
15:18	AtKaaZ	`abp: i believe you, but i'm not ready to make the quantum leap i guess
15:19	Frozenlock	`abp: Would be even better if github's support of org-mode wasn't so sketchy.
15:19	Raynes	http://images2.fanpop.com/images/quiz/243000/243987_1246097307737_400_300.jpg
15:20	`abp	AtKaaZ: Actually it's no quantum leap. Read the tutorial built into Emacs, pick emacs live if you don't want to configure everything yourself and you are ready to read up on modes keychors. It's mostly reading about key combinations and memoizing them.
15:20	Raynes	Memoizing them. lol
15:20	Raynes	I've memoized all my keys.
15:20	`abp	AtKaaZ: You can convert orgmode to markdown
15:21	AtKaaZ	`abp: yeah that's what I tried but I found the key combinations to be different in emacs-live than some other normal emacs configs others use, so some tutorials were not doing what I'd expect
15:22	`abp	AtKaaZ: Those are really only a few you can read up or even comment in the default-keybindings file in your .emacsd.
15:22	AtKaaZ	`abp: if someone could write an emacs tutorial for replacing eclipse , I'd be most interested to read and point out what's missing=)
15:22	`abp	AtKaaZ: Not much interferring except C-h => delete characer, M-h => help instead of C-h
15:23	`abp	AtKaaZ: Just a suggestion to improve your worklife
15:24	AtKaaZ	`abp: i don't remember if emacs-live had git support? and some way to diff and compare two commits,
15:25	AtKaaZ	`abp: i know emacs would be better, but so far eclipse seems easier
15:25	`abp	AtKaaZ: magit
15:25	Frozenlock	AtKaaZ: It's a trap :P
15:25	`abp	AtKaaZ: Yea
15:26	`abp	AtKaaZ: You will be stuck forever if you don't leap forward.
15:27	augustl	any suggestions for automating testing of calls to an external SOAP API, without actually calling the external API?
15:28	Frozenlock	"Thankfully, although Emacs has a steep learning curve, once you “get” it — you get it." http://www.masteringemacs.org/articles/2011/11/10/belated-first-anniversary/
15:29	denlab	@<augustl> I've got a project in progress for that (because I have the same problem at work)
15:30	augustl	denlab: I guess I'll just write the code so that I can test it without actually doing HTTP
15:30	bbloom	AtKaaZ: sorry, gotta run for a bit. will release new version of backtick later tonight
15:30	Bodil	augustl: You will if you expect to be able to call your tests unit tests, at least :)
15:31	AtKaaZ	Frozenlock: that's exactly what puts me off with emacs(i think), i need to understand how it uses that elisp code (aside from it being fully elisp or lisp or whatever it is) so that i can know where to look when i want to change a key for example or run some code at startup or on open and stuff
15:32	denlab	augustl: the idea of the project (http-scribe) is to listen to http traffic, record it, then pretend to be the server
15:32	AtKaaZ	bbloom: it's ok, i can wait, tc
15:33	AtKaaZ	Frozenlock: i'll give that a read , this one: http://www.masteringemacs.org/reading-guide/
15:34	denlab	everyone is talking about microservices & all, but there is no obvious way to test/mock/fake/stub them
15:36	augustl	Bodil: I hate unit tests! :P
15:37	denlab	augustl: I used to love unit tests
15:38	augustl	I do automated testing and test first, but I prefer to only test the actual app (such as doing HTTP requests to an HTTP API)
15:38	augustl	and selenium for UI, etc
15:39	denlab	with some technologies it's safer to test everything
15:41	denlab	Bodil: What IRC client are you using?
15:42	Bodil	denlab: Irccloud - why, what's it doing wrong? :)
15:43	denlab	Bodil: nothing :) It's just it's only my 2nd time on #clojure and I find my IRC client (XChat) a bit bulky...
15:44	denlab	Bodil: I was asking advice
15:45	Bodil	denlab: Well, Irccloud lives in a browser tab, I can recommend it if that's where you prefer to keep your irc session. It's a paid service, though.
15:46	denlab	Bodil: huh?! and then aoutch!?
15:46	denlab	Bodil: ;-)
15:47	denlab	Bodil: I should try one of the emacs IRC client anyway
15:47	augustl	I hope I can buy and deploy my own irccloud instance when it goes out of beta
15:47	Bodil	denlab: I prefer as few open windows as possible, and I've found Emacs and Chrome to be a minimum. And my Emacs window is where I go to focus on programming, so I don't want my irc client in there. So it has to go in the browser. :)
15:47	hashbang1	denlab: if you are looking for a text-mode client, irssi and weechat are nice.
15:48	Bodil	augustl: Why'd you want the trouble of hosting it yourself?
15:48	denlab	:hashbang1 thx, I'll put it on my org-mode list
15:48	denlab	:Bodil it make sense
15:49	Bodil	denlab: +1 for irssi, it's my favourite console client.
15:49	augustl	Bodil: I don't want to pay for it on a monthly basis, I already pay for lots of bandwidth and CPU elsewhere..
15:51	Bodil	augustl: The price is easily worth the lack of bother for me. Life's too short for sysadmin work. :)
15:51	augustl	I'll probably end up paying as well..
15:51	augustl	the client is so much better than irssi
15:56	denlab	I will represent Clojure on a code contest next thursday
15:56	denlab	with a friend of mine (pair prog contest)
16:01	TimMc	Bodil: I happen to already have a server (well, a laptop that lives under the couch at home), so irssi is a no-brainer.
16:06	Raynes	denlab: You'll want to kill yourself within 5 minutes of using any given Emacs IRC client.
16:06	Raynes	denlab: XChat is an excellent client though.
16:06	Raynes	Irccloud would have to give me cookies on a daily basis to get me to pay for them.
16:06	Bodil	TimMc: I have servers to run it on, I've just done too much server admin in my life to pass up on paying someone a couple of dollars to do it for me. :)
16:07	Raynes	The only hting it has going for it is "Stay connected even when you're offline" and I have a znc server for that.
16:07	technomancy	erc is fantastic
16:07	Raynes	thing*
16:07	Bronsa	erc is ^
16:07	Raynes	technomancy: I was implying setup.
16:07	Frozenlock	+1 for erc
16:07	Raynes	Erc is rudimentary if you want to program your IRC client.
16:07	technomancy	Raynes: you don't have to turn paredit on in erc you know =)
16:07	Bodil	Raynes: I was super happy with ERC (aside from the bit about interfering with my programming), after spending about a month configuring it...
16:09	denlab	Raynes: What client do you recommand?
16:09	Raynes	denlab: Well, I normally recommend XChat on *nix, but...
16:09	Raynes	:p
16:09	technomancy	use irissi if you don't use emacs and aren't allergic to perl
16:10	ChongLi	I use irssi despite using emacs!
16:10	Raynes	I'm not a fan of irssi.
16:10	Bronsa	i switched to erc from irssi
16:10	Bronsa	and now my erc looks like irssi :(
16:10	denlab	I'am neutral regarding perl, and in love for emacs
16:11	brainproxy	technomancy: weechat > irssi
16:11	technomancy	denlab: rcirc is another option that ship with emacs; they're nearly indistinguishable these days. erc has more 3rd-party modules; rcirc's codebase is a bit cleaner.
16:11	hashbang1	weechat is nice, and you can extend it with a handful of diff languages
16:11	TimMc	Bodil: What admin is there to do?
16:11	Bodil	hashbang1: If one of them is a lisp, I'm sold.
16:11	hashbang1	Bodil: scheme is one
16:12	Bodil	TimMc: Installing and configuring? :)
16:12	Raynes	Bodil: Like you even use Lisp. You write Clojure editors in CoffeeScript.
16:12	technomancy	there's a big difference between "can extend in lisp" and "written in lisp"
16:12	TimMc	I guess a dedicated IRC service can make sure your client "comes back up" after restart.
16:12	TimMc	Bodil: sudo apt-get install irssi; irssi
16:12	Raynes	Heh.
16:12	Raynes	That's like 5 year old buys car, drives.
16:12	Bodil	Raynes: Go hug a pony. :)
16:13	TimMc	Not trying to convert you; just trying to understand the appeal of a web service.
16:13	denlab	I want a great IRC Client, the Emacs integration is secondary (or is it related? ;-)
16:13	Bodil	TimMc: I'd tip you more than what I pay Irccloud just for typing that for me. ;)
16:13	TimMc	How much do they charge?
16:13	Raynes	TimMc: I think the appeal is persistent IRC connections without having to set up znc (which is easy).
16:13	Raynes	$3 if you don't want to connect to a private IRC network.
16:13	Raynes	$5 if you do.
16:13	Raynes	Per month.
16:13	TimMc	Total? Per month?
16:13	brainproxy	my personal setup is znc running on a vps
16:14	brainproxy	then I use weechat running in tmux on my mac to connect to it
16:14	Raynes	brainproxy: I run znc with a web interface and everything and do it as a service to tons of people.
16:14	technomancy	Raynes: znc is easy against one server; it's a nightmare going to multiple though.
16:14	Raynes	technomancy: No it isn't.
16:14	Raynes	You need to upgrade your znc.
16:14	brainproxy	technomancy: it's not that bad nowadays
16:14	Raynes	1.0 has multiple server support per user.
16:14	technomancy	hm; the docs I read were horrible
16:14	Raynes	It's damn near perfect now.
16:14	technomancy	huh; that's encouraging
16:15	brainproxy	you can get a $5/month vps from digitalocean
16:15	technomancy	it still uses fauxml, which I try to avoid on principle
16:15	bloop	can someone explain to me why (sort subset? [list of sets]) works sometimes but not other times? It seems like subset? should work as a comparator because it's transitive... is there some property its missing that stops it from making a stable sort?
16:15	Raynes	technomancy: I've set up 5 different accounts and haven't touched a config file in two years because of the web interface.
16:15	TimMc	bloop: subset? is a partial order
16:16	brainproxy	Raynes: agreed, the web interface takes a lot of the pain away
16:16	Raynes	I lie, I had to touch it once to enabled SSL cause I couldn't figure out how to do that in the web interface.
16:16	TimMc	bloop: What is the correct sort for this? [#{} #{3} #{5} #{3 5}]
16:16	technomancy	Raynes: configuring solely through an HTML form is just as bad as learning a bullshit XML dialect though (on a different axis albeit); if I'm going to configure something it's gotta be in version control or it doesn't exist
16:17	bloop	TimMc: Is there a better function to use? I don't care if it's stable - only that subsets appear before supersets.
16:17	technomancy	I guess you could do the config in the web UI and check in the generated files provided it emits them properly?
16:17	Raynes	technomancy: It emits things properly.
16:17	bloop	TimMc: I would say that hat is already "sorted"
16:17	Raynes	The web interface is just an interface to the one config file, technomancy.
16:18	TimMc	bloop: What if I switched the two middle elements?
16:18	technomancy	well that's good to hear; after what I read from earlier versions I didn't have high hopes for them getting things like that right =\
16:18	bloop	TimMc: still "sorted"
16:18	Raynes	Pretty sure the web interface has emitted to the regular config file for ages.
16:18	bloop	TimMc: As long as no supersets appear before a subset
16:18	Raynes	But yeah, znc has had some misses.
16:19	Raynes	The original one-server-per-user thing was batshit crazy.
16:19	TimMc	bloop: OK, it's not the best example... I need one that doesn't have simple equivalence classes.
16:19	jweiss	what's a common way to share behavior among several related records? i've seen maps of kw to functions be passed around as "behavior". is that as good as anything or is there a more idiomatic way
16:19	Raynes	I nearly hurled myself out the window with excitement when I found out they were fixing it in 1.0.
16:19	bloop	TimMc: it's seems to mess up most often when there is more than one "island" of sets, if you catch my meaning
16:20	amalloy	bloop: "works sometimes but not other times" is not debuggable. what is an x such that (sort subset? x) returns a value you don't like?
16:20	brainproxy	znc also use to have problems with floods if the connection between znc and the irc server/s got interrupted, especially if you were in lots of channels
16:20	brainproxy	but I haven't experienced that problem in awhile
16:21	bloop	TimMc: eg (sort subset? [#{17 18} #{1} #{17} #{1 2} #{2} #{1 2 3 4} #{18}])
16:21	amalloy	though actually the problem is pretty easy to see: as TimMc says, subset? imposes a partial order, whereas sort requires a total order
16:22	TimMc	bloop: Is this sorted? [#{} #{1} #{1 2} #{1 6} #{1 2 3}] -- I suspect you won't like that, but subset relationships are never reveresed in that one.
16:23	bloop	amalloy: yes
16:23	bloop	TimMc: yes
16:24	TimMc	You could probably make a "total comparator" by wrapping something around subset?, such as a size check...
16:24	bbloom	gfredericks: updated backtick with full syntax-quote
16:24	amalloy	it's fine to say you want subsets to come before supersets, but if you tell sort that #{17 18} comes before #{1} (because you don't care about their ordering), and then that #{1} comes before #{17} (again, you don't care), it will conclude that #{17 18} comes before #{17} without ever calling subset? on the two of them
16:24	bloop	TimMc: that list is sorted according to my needs: no superset appears before a subset
16:24	amalloy	TimMc: that total comparator is easy: (sort-by count sets)
16:25	amalloy	bloop: so just sort them by size, as i say above
16:25	amalloy	you'll never get a larger set before a smaller one, so problem solved
16:25	TimMc	I'm not even sure how sort is supposed to work with a predicate like subset?.
16:26	bloop	ha! thanks guys, I think that works, doesn't it?
16:26	amalloy	TimMc: it probably converts it using copmarator
16:26	TimMc	,(sort = [1 5 2 8 9])
16:26	clojurebot	(1 5 2 8 9)
16:26	TimMc	,(doc comparator) Oh, is that a thing?
16:26	clojurebot	"([pred]); Returns an implementation of java.util.Comparator based upon pred."
16:26	amalloy	ah no, it doesn't do that
16:27	TimMc	I'm not sure what that does.
16:27	amalloy	clojure functions implement Comparator
16:27	amalloy	TimMc: it assumes that pred is a function like <, and implements Comparator by calling pred
16:28	TimMc	Oh, fancy. cond (pred x y) -1 (pred y x) 1 :else 0)
16:29	hyPiRion	oh, muha
16:29	hyPiRion	,(sort - [5 1 4 -3 2])
16:29	clojurebot	(-3 1 2 4 5)
16:29	amalloy	which is odd, because i think that's already how (fn) implements Comparator
16:30	clintnewsom	bit of a n00b to clojure
16:30	clintnewsom	i have an atom (def my-atom (atom {:turns [] :winner false :game-over false}))
16:31	clintnewsom	which i'm trying to update the value :winner
16:31	clintnewsom	i know update-in
16:31	clintnewsom	is the way to go
16:31	TimMc	amalloy: Interesting, I don't see it in the Java source.
16:31	amalloy	TimMc: Afunction/compare
16:31	amalloy	AFunction
16:31	clintnewsom	but can't seem to wrap my head around the syntax
16:31	TimMc	Ah, thanks.
16:31	amalloy	(swap! my-atom assoc :winner true)
16:32	clintnewsom	i know updating the :turns vector would be something like
16:32	clintnewsom	(swap! my-atom conj [:turns :first])
16:32	hyPiRion	(swap! atom fn-to-use arg1 arg2) => (reset! atom (fn-to-use @atom arg1 arg2))
16:32	dnolen	,(assoc-in {:turns [] :winner false :game-over false} [:winner] "Bob")
16:32	clojurebot	{:turns [], :winner "Bob", :game-over false}
16:32	hyPiRion	(Except it's atomic, so no issues with that @atom thing)
16:33	clintnewsom	thanks
16:33	dnolen	clintnewsom: in the case of setting a winner you don't really need update-in, just assoc-in
16:33	clintnewsom	that worked
16:33	clintnewsom	haha
16:33	clintnewsom	i knew i'd see you here
16:33	clintnewsom	yes
16:33	clintnewsom	thankyou
16:33	TimMc	amalloy: In fact, it's even better than clojure.core/comparator, since it allows use of both booleans and numbers.
16:33	amalloy	yeah
16:33	clintnewsom	oh
16:33	dnolen	update-in is only when you want to change an existing value w/ a function to something else.
16:33	hyPiRion	TimMc: Not sure what you mean by better. What is true, and what is false?
16:34	hyPiRion	It's not evident from my perspective.
16:34	hyPiRion	(Neither's -1, 0 and 1 though)
16:36	TimMc	hyPiRion: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/AFunction.java#L51
16:36	TimMc	If a boolean is returned, the fn may be called again with the params reversed.
16:40	gf3	Raynes: Thanks for the heads up
16:40	Raynes	gf3: There shouldn't be any merge conflicts or anything, so I'm not sure why I bothered you at all.
16:41	gf3	Raynes: BECAUSE YOU'RE A NICE GUY
16:41	Raynes	callenbot: You mentioned a css preprocessor. Are you saying I should use SASS?
16:42	Raynes	Because we might have to engage in fisticuffs.
16:57	Frozenlock	what would be a clojure way of trying something up to X number of time? (->> (repeatedly 5 do-stuff) (take-while empty?)) ??
16:57	lazybot	Frozenlock: Definitely not.
17:00	TimMc	Two end-conditions, where one is a max iterations and the other depends on output of the body?
17:01	Frozenlock	Yup
17:01	TimMc	Looks like a reasonable approach.
17:01	TimMc	I'd add a dorun at the end of that, though.
17:02	Frozenlock	I've used a doall...
17:02	TimMc	Or that.
17:02	Frozenlock	I always confuse them..
17:03	Frozenlock	Or rather they confuse me.
17:03	TimMc	,(do (take-while identity (repeatedly 5 #(do (println "x") 1))) '_)
17:03	clojurebot	_
17:03	Frozenlock	grammar time
17:03	TimMc	&(do (dorun (take-while identity (repeatedly 5 #(do (println "x") 1)))) '_)
17:03	lazybot	⇒ x x x x x _
17:04	AtKaaZ	bbloom: hi, is this why I should use the *-fn version? https://www.refheap.com/paste/11487
17:04	bbloom	AtKaaZ: that first line is analogous to ##(-> `'foo)
17:04	lazybot	⇒ (quote clojure.core/foo)
17:05	AtKaaZ	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: user/quote, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1)
17:05	bbloom	AtKaaZ: oooooooo
17:05	bbloom	AtKaaZ: you may have discovered a bug: specials
17:06	bbloom	AtKaaZ: let me look
17:08	bbloom	AtKaaZ: https://github.com/brandonbloom/backtick/commit/f194cb1e429923a68d3e3a9cc4ec25f0f833b838
17:08	bbloom	AtKaaZ: I redeployed 0.3.0-SNAPSHOT to clojars
17:08	bbloom	AtKaaZ: thanks for kicking the tires!
17:08	AtKaaZ	cool
17:10	solussd	anyone know if there is an OAuth2 provider workflow for Friend? I've found Clauth, but it doesn't integrate with friend and I've found friend-oauth2, but it is just an oauth2 client, afaict.
17:21	deg	Is there a standard function like partial, that takes the additional args on the left, rather than the right?
17:25	`abp`	Can I load data readers I just wrote at the repl?
17:26	cmdrdats	deg: sounds like a strange case? you could just #(f % arg1 arg2)?
17:27	mjiig	does anyone know how you're meant to connect to a database with jdbc now since the docs say with-connection is depreciated?
17:27	Raynes	(defn weird-partial [f & args] (fn [& new-args] (apply f (concat new-args args))))
17:27	Raynes	deg: ^
17:27	deg	cmdrdats: Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing now, but I was hoping for an idiomatic parallel to partial. No biggy.
17:27	Raynes	There is no standard function though.
17:28	deg	Raynes: Ok. Is it worth duplicating the multiple cases implemented by partial (for short arglists)? How much efficiency do they gain?
17:28	clojurebot	One idea I had was to parameterise Keyword with the key it looks up. :a is of (Keyword :a). But that has other issues.
17:29	Raynes	deg: Not really.
17:29	cmdrdats	deg: if it's for a call to a function in your own code, consider flipping it around in the signature?
17:30	weavejester	Does anyone know offhand how to find which resource a namespace comes from?
17:30	deg	cmdrdats: I thought of doing that, and still might, but it makes the code slightly less readable in other contexts. Mostly, I was asking out of curiosity. "weird-partial" seems as useful, in general, as partial.
17:30	weavejester	I have an odd bug where an out of date class is somehow creeping into the classpath
17:31	deg	(Or maybe it's just me. I'm also bothered that -> doesn't have syntax allowing the arg-threading in arbitrary positions.
17:31	hiredman	weavejester: have you cleared classes and/or target classes?
17:31	weavejester	hiredman: Yep
17:31	cmdrdats	deg: I used to write my functions a lot with the partial-able args at the beginning
17:31	cemerick	weavejester: e.g. (clojure.java.io/resource "clojure/set.clj")
17:31	weavejester	cemerick: Yeah, that claims the dependency is up to date
17:32	weavejester	But I know it isn't
17:32	cmdrdats	deg: but recognized that there's huge value in putting them at the end, especially if you want to use the ->> macro mixed with list transformation functions like map, filter and reduce
17:32	amalloy	deg: arbitrary-position threading is just 'let
17:33	stuartsierra	deg: Clojure 1.5 has as-> which does allow the argument in arbitrary positions
17:33	deg	cmdrdats: Understood. I'm still fighting the language here, as a newbie.
17:34	deg	stuartsierra: What is the syntax for as->? Sounds interesting. Is 1.5 stable enough already for average users?
17:34	hiredman	weavejester: how do you know?
17:34	stuartsierra	it's in the source, and yes
17:34	deg	stuartsierra: Cool. I will try switching up from 1.4 soon.
17:35	weavejester	hiredman: When I run the code in project A, it works, but in project B, it doesn't. The dependencies for the library in question are the same.
17:35	hiredman	weavejester: have you checked the working project for stale classes, etc
17:35	weavejester	io/resource says they're from the same jar
17:36	weavejester	hiredman: I've lein cleaned before running lein repl
17:36	hiredman	weavejester: and `lein classpath` is the same for both?
17:37	jsabeaudry	I need to serve a lot of json and cheshire.core/generate-string is the bottleneck, any recommendations?
17:37	hiredman	is this on the same machine using the same ~/.m2?
17:37	weavejester	hiredman: The projects have differing dependencies; but the library in question has the same version on both, on the same machine, with the same user.
17:37	dakrone	jsabeaudry: are you using custom encoding?
17:37	hiredman	jsabeaudry: depending on what you are serving you may want to look at some kind of templating instead of a general purpose encoder
17:38	hiredman	weavejester: ok, so the jar for the library in question in `lein classpath` is the same for both?
17:38	jsabeaudry	dakrone, nope
17:39	dakrone	jsabeaudry: how did you determine encoding is the bottleneck? what version of cheshire?
17:39	weavejester	hiredman: Yes
17:39	jsabeaudry	hiredman, ok some kind of "hardcoded" encoder that only works for my data?
17:39	dakrone	jsabeaudry: what does your data look like?
17:39	weavejester	hiredman: Let me try again, see if I can narrow the issue down with some test code
17:39	hiredman	weavejester: ok, so take the rest of the jars that differ and write a little for loop that searches them for the same resource
17:40	jsabeaudry	my data looks like {:a [0.00001 0.333 0.45555] :b 4 :c 5} x1000
17:40	hiredman	(format "{:a [%s %s %s] :b %s :c %s}" ...)
17:41	hiredman	well, but with json
17:41	jsabeaudry	dakrone, cheshire 5.0.1 and perhaps I am wrong, it just that when i call the http handler doing the encoding the processor goes up to 100% for a few seconds
17:41	jsabeaudry	dakrone, could be jetty really bad at serving a string
17:42	dakrone	jsabeaudry: you may need to do profiling to determine where the bottleneck is
17:42	jsabeaudry	dakrone, yes, indeed
17:44	jsabeaudry	dakrone, is there a limit to the size of the json string? can I serve 100KB strings?
17:45	jsabeaudry	Getting late, I'll profile that tomorrow
17:46	jsabeaudry	thanks for the suggestions hiredman and dakrone :) also thanks for cheshire, great little lib :)
17:46	dakrone	jsabeaudry: you should be able to servec strings that size without a problem
17:49	amalloy	could be any number of things. perhaps your data points are generated slowly but lazily, and only realized when cheshire tries to encode them
17:51	`abp`	Do I need to start a new repl everytime I change data_readers.clj?
17:52	ravster	hello all
17:53	brehaut	`abp`: (require :reload 'foo.data-readers)
17:53	brehaut	`abp`: or :reload-all to reload it, and its dependancies.
17:53	brehaut	`abp`: there are gotchas with multimethods and protocols
17:54	hiredman	brehaut: he is talking about data_readers.clj
17:54	hiredman	the magic file for literals
17:54	brehaut	oh right. my bad
17:55	`abp`	I just wondered. ;)
17:55	hiredman	`abp`: data_readers.clj is used to populate data-readers, which you can binding via binding or alter the root value of
17:55	weavejester	Is there a way of interrogating a namespace to figure out which classloader it came from?
17:55	cemerick	magic http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fuukRVObpiI/T_W_LVsivkI/AAAAAAAABB8/YcXkIn4QeDE/s320/magic.gif
17:56	amalloy	weavejester: probably not for a namespace, but you can ask the functions in it
17:56	weavejester	amalloy: That'll do. Do you know offhand how to do that?
17:56	amalloy	,(.getClassLoader (class inc))
17:56	clojurebot	#<AccessControlException java.security.AccessControlException: access denied ("java.lang.RuntimePermission" "getClassLoader")>
17:57	weavejester	amalloy: Oh right, because functions are classes. Duh me.
17:57	amalloy	weavejester: functions are objects, man
17:57	weavejester	amalloy: Or objects, rather
17:58	weavejester	Ohh, interesting
17:59	weavejester	In the library that works, the classloader is: #<DynamicClassLoader clojure.lang.DynamicClassLoader@816c920>
17:59	weavejester	In the library that does not, the classloader is: #<AppClassLoader sun.misc.Launcher$AppClassLoader@7361b0bc>
18:00	hiredman	that is aot vs. not
18:00	hiredman	when code is compiled you get a dynamicclassloader
18:00	hiredman	so maybe one of your other deps is shipping with an aot compiled version of the lib or something
18:02	`abp`	so, data-readers has my readers, but an exception that the reader function for the tag was not found.
18:03	hiredman	`abp: what did you put in data-readers ? and how are you reading? and have you loaded the code that implements your data reader before trying to read?
18:03	weavejester	hiredman: Yeah, I figured. And… with .getResource I've found it. I need to remember that it's __init.class instead of .clj
18:04	ravster	whats the best way to make a system both basic-auth and cookie-auth? remvee's basic-auth lib doesn't look like it would allow a request to continue without basic-auth , and I'd like something that supports both.
18:05	`abp	hiredman: I didn't put anything. Clojure loaded them. But requiring the implementing namespace and then trying to use a read form fails.
18:05	`abp	a tagged form
18:05	weavejester	Oh, that's strange. It's been compiled by a library that shouldn't have any AOT.
18:05	hiredman	`abp: pastebin your data_readers.clj
18:06	hiredman	weavejester: none should, really
18:06	`abp	https://gist.github.com/abp/2f7b952d9d9ebf290d5b
18:07	weavejester	hiredman: Yeah. This is a library in a private repo, but it doesn't have any :aot directives, no :main and no :gen-class. I just grepped the source. Yet in .m2 the jar has compiled classes in. Weird!
18:07	arrdem	random musing from the last few days: will the JVM's JIT take {:foo bar :baz bung} and inline it to a struct given sufficient use?
18:07	hiredman	weavejester: if you have stale stuff in classes/ lein may just throw them in to the jar :/
18:07	clojurebot	inner classes are a Java fiction; for the Double "inner class" in Point2D, write Point2D$Double (not Point2D.Double).
18:08	hiredman	`abp: and do you have an example use of the literal?
18:08	weavejester	hiredman: Yeah, that was my next thought, too. My git repo for the lib is at 0.1.2, and the compiled version is 0.1.4 so maybe someone updated it...
18:08	`abp	#route/get :a
18:08	`abp	#route/get [1 2 3]
18:08	`abp	oh.. wait
18:10	weavejester	"lein jar" doesn't compile any classes so… maybe someone screwed up the packaging somehow.
18:10	`abp	hiredman: Nope, doesn't work
18:11	hiredman	`abp: would those readers return nil?
18:11	`abp	they were returning nil, just printing, now they are returning their argument
18:12	`abp	hiredman: even (('routes/post data-readers) :a) works
18:13	`abp	as well as routes/get in there
18:13	hiredman	`abp: what repl are you using?
18:14	`abp	nrepl via nrepl.el 0.1.6
18:14	hiredman	what happens if you send (read-string "#routes/get :a") ?
18:15	`abp	hiredman: works..?
18:16	hiredman	so somewhere in nrepl something is trying to read the code you send it, but it doesn't have the data readers installed
18:16	`abp	eww oh my god
18:16	`abp
18:16	`abp
18:16	hiredman	complain loudly in the github issues for nrepl.el and the jira for nrepl
18:17	`abp	but it's not working with lein repl either
18:17	`abp	so more like nrepl?
18:17	hiredman	^- that was a pretty sweet diagnosis
18:17	weavejester	Yeah, someone, somehow managed to get a bunch of classes in a jar deployed to a private repo. Maybe they compiled it and that left a bunch of classes in the target directory that were picked up by the "lein deploy" command.
18:17	amalloy	afaik that's a known problem with nrepl
18:17	hiredman	`abp: I am not sure how `lein repl` works these days, it is actually pretty complex now
18:17	`abp	amalloy: Uh, that would be tough
18:18	hiredman	amalloy: really, my reader literals seem to work fine?
18:18	hiredman	well, unless whatever it is doesn't have a corresponding print-method
18:18	amalloy	hiredman: perhaps they fixed it for the common case? i know it used to be a problem
18:18	hiredman	but the reading happens fine in that case
18:18	`abp	I'm on Clojure-1.5.0-RC16 btw
18:20	`abp	Oh snap, I'm not.
18:22	`abp	Ok still doesn't work.
18:28	`abp	hiredman: heh, clojures neat error handling strikes again. last fragment of implementing ns and tag must match up..
18:29	`abp	hiredman: that's a connection I didn't know of
18:29	hiredman	huh
18:29	hiredman	me neither
18:29	`abp	RuntimeException No reader function for tag route/post clojure.lang.LispReader$CtorReader.readTagged (LispReader.java:1164)
18:30	`abp	that's all it has to say on that..
18:30	hiredman	`abp: are you sure about that? I don't see that in the code anywhere?
18:36	`abp	hiredman: I can't spot anything causing this behaviour either..
18:38	pppaul	anyone here use drip?
18:42	Raynes	pppaul: Well, I use it and work with the guys who wrote it.
18:43	pppaul	how hard is it to get drip working with lein/ring/whatever-clojure?
18:43	Raynes	Not hard at all.
18:43	pppaul	great
18:43	pppaul	i'm going to install it right now
18:43	Raynes	If you just install drip lein will use it automatically.
18:43	weavejester	I tried drip, but I didn't see any difference between drip-enhanced Lein and normal Lein
18:44	Raynes	weavejester: Did you actually time it?
18:44	Raynes	Actually, lein won't automatically use it.
18:44	weavejester	Raynes: No, but I was expecting a subjective difference
18:44	Raynes	pppaul: After you install drip, add "export LEIN_JAVA_CMD=drip" to your ~/.profile or ~/.bashrc or whatever.
18:44	Raynes	And then lein will use it and you'll be good to go.
18:46	weavejester	Raynes: I used someone's plugin a while ago. Perhaps it didn't work. I'll try again with the official instructions.
18:46	Raynes	weavejester: https://www.refheap.com/paste/11490
18:46	Raynes	weavejester: This is the raw performance gains over using 'java' directly with a Clojure project.
18:47	pppaul	hmmmm
18:47	Raynes	weavejester: However, lein is going to be slow no matter what you do, especially when it uses subprocesses (which means you get the JVM startup anyways, even though drip has cut out the original startup time).
18:47	weavejester	Raynes: Ohhh… maybe that's why it didn't seem to make a difference to Leiningen.
18:48	pppaul	Raynes how will i know if lein is using it?
18:48	Raynes	weavejester: drip is much more useful for actual end-user things. For example, IIRC jruby either ships with it or plans to at some point.
18:48	Raynes	pppaul: do 'drip kill' and then run `lein version` and then do `drip ps`
18:48	Raynes	If there are JVMs then leiningen is using drip,.
18:49	pppaul	thank you
18:50	pppaul	http://librelist.com/browser//leiningen/2012/9/10/ann-drip-a-fast-jvm-launcher/
18:50	Raynes	weavejester: Another thing is that if you try to run two commands in quick succession, one of them will have the startup time since it hasn't given the second drip JVM enough time to spin up. There is some thing you can set that makes drip keep n JVMs running so that you can run several commands back to back without hitting the startup time.
18:50	Raynes	Not sure how well tested that feature is though.
18:50	muraiki1	Hi all, I'm new to clojure and clojurescript and have run into a problem. I've successfully used org.clojure/math.combinatorics in my clojure project, but now that I'm switched it to cljs I get the following error in the web console when running it: goog.require could not find: clojure.math.combinatorics
18:51	ivan	if there were an easy way to have cleanly isolated Clojure runtimes in the same JVM, you wouldn't need drip, right?
18:51	weavejester	Raynes: I can actually kinda see a difference now
18:52	ivan	muraiki1: the repo suggests there is no cljs version
18:52	pppaul	drip ps -> command not found Raynes
18:52	Raynes	weavejester: https://www.refheap.com/paste/11491
18:52	muraiki1	ivan: heh, now I feel dumb... thanks!
18:52	hiredman	weavejester: now not only do you have to worry about stale classes, but stale jvms
18:53	weavejester	hiredman: Haha
18:53	Raynes	pppaul: Try `which drip`
18:53	hiredman	I kid you not
18:53	Raynes	Sounds like drip isn't on your PATH.
18:53	Raynes	How did you install it?
18:53	ivan	some CLJS users might know if https://github.com/clojure/math.combinatorics/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/math/combinatorics.clj is all valid CLJS, it might be
18:54	hiredman	I have heard people swear off drip, having been burned by that very thing
18:54	weavejester	hiredman: I believe you. I think I'll try it until it bites me, though.
18:55	Raynes	Eh.
18:55	pppaul	Raynes which drip shows that drip is on my path. drip is running… i don't see lein using it
18:55	Raynes	drip is wildly less volatile than persistent JVMs.
18:56	pppaul	i followed the instructions from the website http://librelist.com/browser//leiningen/2012/9/10/ann-drip-a-fast-jvm-launcher/
18:56	Raynes	And if you think it's causing a problem 'drip kill' will fix it. I've yet to have any sort of issues with it caused by stale jvms.
18:56	muraiki1	ivan: actually it looks like the one function I need works fine in cljs, so I'll just include it in my project for now
18:57	muraiki1	ivan: and my project is also EPL so no worries about license, hehe
18:59	Raynes	pppaul: What version of lein do you have?
18:59	pppaul	2
18:59	pppaul	but i'm using fish as my shell
19:00	pppaul	so the wiki on flatland is giving me trouble
19:00	Raynes	Yeah, I can't help you at all with fish. :p
19:00	pppaul	trying with zsh now
19:00	Raynes	Only thing I know about fish is the name. ;)
19:05	pppaul	what is the jps command in drip?
19:08	pppaul	oh man, there is a note on the drip wiki that says it doesn't work with lein preview 10....
19:09	weavejester	pppaul: Haven't you upgraded?
19:09	pppaul	hmm
19:09	Raynes	That's kind of why I asked you which version you were using. :p
19:09	pppaul	preview 10 isn't the latest version?
19:10	Raynes	No, there is a final release.
19:10	Raynes	Upgrade, boy.
19:10	Raynes	The future is here.
19:10	pppaul	i feel like an old man
19:11	pbostrom	Raynes: I've noticed that clojail will "lose" defs after I've sent it a few things to evaluate
19:11	Raynes	pbostrom: Did you notice this from using clojail itself or from tryclj?
19:11	Raynes	This was reported on tryclj, but I didn't realize it was a clojail problem specifically.
19:11	pbostrom	I'm using it on my own app, which is similar to tryclj
19:12	Frozenlock	pbostrom: you can change the limit on the number of defs that clojail will accept.
19:12	Raynes	Yeah, but the limit seems to not matter anymore.
19:12	Frozenlock	o_O
19:12	Raynes	The limit is higher than 2 on tryclj yet it drops defs after 2 defs.
19:12	Raynes	It has magically broken somewhere along the line.
19:12	pbostrom	it seems to lose it if I just reference the def a few times
19:13	Raynes	Yeah, that's what I meant. It's evil.
19:13	Raynes	pbostrom: Could you open an issue? I'll take a look asap.
19:13	Raynes	You could probably fix it faster, but I'd be concerned about suicide.
19:14	pbostrom	Raynes: I may look into a bit more, but I don't really now where to begin, I will open an issue though, thanks
19:14	Frozenlock	Is there some kind of forms-helpers for compojure/hiccup?
19:14	Raynes	https://github.com/weavejester/hiccup/blob/master/src/hiccup/form.clj
19:15	Frozenlock	Well yes, but helper for that.
19:15	Frozenlock	Input validation, automatic conversion, etc etc
19:16	Raynes	pbostrom: https://github.com/flatland/clojail/blob/master/src/clojail/core.clj#L149 and search for 'def' https://github.com/flatland/clojail/blob/master/src/clojail/core.clj#L221 might help.
19:16	Raynes	But I don't expect you to fix it.
19:16	Raynes	Just warning you it might be a little while.
19:17	pbostrom	Raynes: I might be able to look into it, I'll just harass you on irc if I get stuck
19:17	Raynes	Sure thing.
19:17	Frozenlock	Hmm what would be really sweet is a validator maker. Here's an example map <map>, make sure the returned value fit it in, with the correct data-type.
19:18	Frozenlock	Must.. not... start ... something ... new...
19:19	weavejester	Frozenlock: There are a few projects under "validation" at http://www.clojure-toolbox.com/
19:20	Frozenlock	weavejester: thanks, looking now!
19:21	Frozenlock	weavejester: btw, just tried codox, works like a charm :)
19:22	weavejester	Frozenlock: Excellent :)
19:35	DaReaper5	How would i get the difference between two dates in clojure?
19:36	DaReaper5	Do i have to have an ugly loop or use joda?
19:37	Frozenlock	DaReaper5: clj-time
19:39	DaReaper5	(- (years date1)(years date2) ?
19:41	ivaraasen	should buy some more CS books. anyone got recommendations?
19:41	DaReaper5	or: (- (in-years date1)(in-years date2)) ?
19:42	Frozenlock	(in-minutes (duration (date-time 1986 10 2) (date-time 1986 10 14)))
19:45	ravster	I want to write an authorization function for a handler for a particular route. how do I make sure that the authorization function gets the request object. I'm looking at compojure's source, but I'm not understanding it.
19:45	weavejester	ravster: It sounds like you're describing middleware
19:47	ravster	weavejester: the middleware I wrote puts stuff into the :session map. I need an authorization function that will look in the :session map of a request, see if a particular entry matches, and then chooses to pass the request on to the actual handler for the route.
19:47	ravster	different routes would have different authorizations, so I can't put it all in a wrapper, right?
19:48	weavejester	ravster: You can assign different middleware to different routes
19:48	weavejester	ravster: A route is just a Ring handler
19:49	weavejester	ravster: Compojure is essentially a library for connecting together Ring handlers into bigger handlers.
19:50	Raynes	With weird modified destructuring syntax.
19:50	Raynes	;)
19:50	ravster	huh. looking through ring wiki now.
19:51	weavejester	Raynes: For parameters - you can destructure the request normally.
19:51	Raynes	I know.
19:51	Raynes	It just always makes me squint.
20:00	ravster	so instead of a (GET "/foo" [] handler) I'd do a (wrap-superusers-only (GET "/foo" [] handler)) ?
20:18	yedi_	is :remote-addr the ip address of a user
20:18	yedi_	(in a compojure request map)
20:19	aperiodic	yes
20:21	ravster	Is there any way I can make the authorization function as part of the compojure handler so I can take advantage of its destructuring? Something like (Get "/foo/:id" [] (authorize id handler)) ?
20:24	aperiodic	you need to put the id param in the arguments vector after the route string and uppercase 'Get', but yeah, that looks good
20:24	aperiodic	keep in mind id will be a string, if you're expecting an integer you'll need to coerce it
20:26	aperiodic	although wait, if authorize is your authorization fn why not just call it there; what's the handler arg doing?
20:27	ravster	handler is the function thats doing whatever the route is supposed to do. (authorize) would be a function that checks the :session to see if we are a user that is allowed to do the stuff.
20:28	ravster	so in authorize I'd have something that looks at :session, sees the :id from the params of the request, and does a check to see whether we execute (handler) or not.
20:29	yedi_	how can i view the entire stacktrace while using nrepl in emacs? i'm running lein repl from the terminal and connecting to it via emacs, now when i run commands in the terminal only the error msg shows up
20:29	ravster	I've only ever made handlers that take in the request function and thats it. I'd like to find out how to define a function that will take in the request map and another function.
20:29	yedi_	nrepl error doesn't seem to display the stack trace for these errors
20:30	ravster	s/request function/request object
20:32	ravster	oh, yikes. I should be able to just do it with an anonymous function.
20:33	aperiodic	ravster: (defn if-authorized [session do-authorized] (if (authorized-pred? session) (do-authorized) {:status 403 :body "VERBOTEN"}))
20:33	aperiodic	ravster: then you pass a fn thunk as do-authorized like #(foo-handler id) or the like
20:36	ravster	so it'll look like (GET "/foo/:id" [] (if-authorized (:session request) #(foo-handler id))) -ish ?
20:58	AtKaaZ	,#_({:a 2 :a 1})
20:58	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: :a>
20:58	AtKaaZ	is that normal because it happens at compiletime? the {} part as opposed to (hash-map :a 2 :a 1)
20:58	yedi_	can someone help me out with this: https://gist.github.com/yedi/4992075
20:59	yedi_	what is clojure.lang.IDeref
21:01	brehaut	yedi_: its the interface used to implement reference types, eg (deref (atom 1)) ;=> 1. @a is reader syntax for (deref a). something (whatever the unbound var is) in that is being derefed, and failing. perhaps you havent set up the session storage?
21:03	yedi_	brehaut: ahh you're right. i got passed that error when i lein ring server, i guess testing in the repl wasn't the best idea
21:21	holo	hi
21:21	holo	,(reduce #(-> %2) '(1 2 3))
21:21	clojurebot	3
21:22	holo	if %2 stands for the second argument, where is the second argument? i can't sort this out
21:24	jeremyheiler	holo, because 3 is the second argument on the final reduction.
21:24	jeremyheiler	,(reduce #(-> %2) '(1 2))
21:24	clojurebot	2
21:24	jeremyheiler	,(reduce #(-> %2) '(1 2 3 4))
21:24	clojurebot	4
21:27	yedi_	my one petpeeve with clojure is that i have to wrap a do around a form if i want to print something, esp with paredit-mode making it kind of a nuisance to type parens (still gettin the hang of it)
21:28	ldh	is there a naming convention for where to put leiningen hooks that I'm missing? it seems that wherever i put the file containing the activate function, i get "cannot resolve my.hook/activate hook"
21:33	jeremyheiler	yedi_, well, only when there isn't an implicit do ;-)
21:33	dnolen	heh, ClojureScript data structures could be constructed a lot, lot faster
21:34	yedi_	jeremyheiler: oh my... are there implicit dos in many places?
21:35	jeremyheiler	yedi_, they're generally where you expect them, like when, loop, and of course fn.
21:35	holo	jeremyheiler, wow thanks.. this solution is pure awesomeness
21:36	ChongLi	yedi_: paredit mode a nuissance?
21:36	ChongLi	no way!
21:36	ChongLi	just use M-(
21:36	yedi_	ChongLi: can't tell if sarcasm
21:36	ChongLi	not sarcasm :)'
21:36	ChongLi	I love paredit
21:37	bbloom	dnolen: what did you find?
21:37	bbloom	(RE: faster construction of data structures)
21:37	ChongLi	yedi_: do you use all the paredit navigation keys?
21:37	yedi_	ChongLi: oh wow, i've been using C-space, C-M-f, parens
21:37	yedi_	ChongLi: almost definitely not
21:37	ChongLi	C-M-u is a great one
21:38	yedi_	jeremyheiler: thanks for pointing that out!
21:38	yedi_	ChongLi: what does that do
21:38	ChongLi	goes up a level
21:39	ChongLi	C-M-d goes down a level
21:39	dnolen	bbloom: ArrayMap can take an array if we have a literal, no work needs to be done
21:39	ChongLi	with those two and C-M-f you can get around quite quickly
21:39	dnolen	bbloom: same for sets
21:39	dnolen	bbloom: if they use ArrayMaps underneath
21:40	ChongLi	the other ones you usually want are slurp, barf and splice
21:40	bbloom	dnolen: ah, of course :-)
21:40	dnolen	bbloom: currently fromArray(s) code is wasting time building when we don't need to
21:40	dnolen	bbloom: I was looking at the horrific numbers for constructing sets
21:40	dnolen	and realized we can make it 10X faster
21:41	bbloom	dnolen: cool. although as long as perf doesn't get worse i'm more interested in work moving towards self hosting. although i know you do looove to tweak performance, and having fun certainly counts for something :-)
21:42	dnolen	well these are pretty simple optimizations with fairly big payoffs for users so ...
21:43	bbloom	so go for em!
21:45	callenbot	Raynes: I'm saying you should use SCSS
21:45	callenbot	Raynes: SASS specifically is for communists. SCSS is amazing.
21:46	mefisto	I'm trying to remember... isn't there a function that reverses the argument order of a function?
21:46	bbloom	mefisto: (defn reverse-args [f] (fn [& args] (apply f (reverse args))))
21:46	bbloom	there you go
21:47	ravster	how do I make ring-basic-authentication optional for a route?
21:48	mefisto	hmmm
21:53	amalloy	i've never really gotten the hang of paredit's down and up commands. all the fancy forward, backward, and editing make me content enough that i haven't really tried
21:53	amalloy	i wonder if you can point out, ChongLi, a case where i'm doing something in a dumb way because the "obviously right" way is with up or down movement
21:55	ChongLi	amalloy: I use the up movement whenever I need to get out of the current level
21:55	ChongLi	perhaps to wrap it with another expression
21:58	alandipert	dnolen: thanks for your cljs optimization work!
22:00	dnolen	alandipert: no problem - I find it quite entertaining
22:02	holo	my solution to problem #21 in 4clojure: http://ctrlv.in/162822 i wonder why no one thought about that 4 character answer :D
22:03	dnolen	writing #{1 2 3} in your CLJS is now 20X faster
22:05	alandipert	holo: crafty!
22:06	bbloom	dnolen: nice!
22:09	dnolen	more and more I'm liking the idea of ^not-native
22:10	alandipert	fn meta i presume? what would it do?
22:11	bbloom	alandipert: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/bf4c85c1f17c3f2a26ba57fef896350a7651d8cf
22:12	bbloom	dnolen: if not-native helps, i'm all for it. but wouldn't any non js/ prefixed type hint constitute a not-native type hint?
22:12	bbloom	dnolen: ie would it be better to use explicit type names in hints? assuming we had full hinting working
22:13	Frozenlock	Another proof that dnolen do not sleep. Ever.
22:14	dnolen	alandipert: eliminates protocol dispatch
22:14	dnolen	bbloom: no, because you can pass in native types to core functions
22:15	dnolen	bbloom: non-native means you're writing some high perf stuff and you want to write in Clojure and you don't want to deal w/ the fact that natives are on a slow protocol path
22:16	bbloom	dnolen: oh, i see, hinting ISeq or PersistantArrayMap or whatever isn't good. you want to hint "any type other than native ones"
22:16	dnolen	I take no credit - Rich suggested it at TechMesh - I was getting annoyed that we could avoid protocol overhead
22:16	dnolen	bbloom: exactly!
22:16	bbloom	dnolen: still, PersistentArrayMap implies not-native, but ISeq & other protocols don't
22:17	bbloom	in the case where a concrete type is known, it seems preferable to hint with that, rather than not-native
22:17	dnolen	bbloom: yes, no promise that protocol or concrete type hinting will persist - we'll see. So far I'm seeing more mileage out of non-native in actual code.
22:18	dnolen	^ "couldn't avoid protocol overhead" I mean
22:24	dnolen	hoho
22:25	dnolen	(let [v [1 2 3]] (set v))
22:25	dnolen	260ms on CLJ JVM
22:25	dnolen	282ms on CLJS V8
22:25	bbloom	heh, nice
22:25	bbloom	how many iterations?
22:25	dnolen	1e6
22:26	bbloom	dnolen: back to the predicate dispatch topic for a moment
22:26	bbloom	dnolen: b/c i've been reading etc
22:27	dnolen	(hash-set 1 2 3) in CLJS V8 is faster than hash-set in CLJ JVM
22:27	bbloom	dnolen: eh, i dunno how to formulate the question i'm trying to ask you, so that must mean i don't understand it enough yet to ask :-P
22:27	bbloom	dnolen: what's the timings on hash-set ?
22:27	bbloom	and is there an array-set too?
22:28	dnolen	~190ms on my machine V8, ~240ms for JVM
22:28	clojurebot	fax machine is http://tinyurl.com/ygc9w2
22:28	bbloom	where the fuck does clojurebot get this nonsense from?
22:28	Raynes	callenbot: The problem is that it just accumulated over time. I wouldn't know where to begin. 40% of that file probably doesn't even need to exist anymore. Are there any tools for finding out which things don't matter anymore in a css file?
22:28	dnolen	which means we have decent construction times for all Clojure data structures in ClojureScript - finally!
22:29	bbloom	Raynes: there are, but it's a really hard problem if you've got any javascript involved with creating elements
22:29	bbloom	Raynes: do you need static analysis (looking at HTML files only) or full dynamic analysis? (looking at which css classes are activated at runtime)
22:29	bbloom	dnolen: good stuff
22:29	callenbot	Raynes: there are ways to know, they're generally heuristic in nature if you're not using an aggressively declarative asset pipeline
22:29	callenbot	Raynes: and as bbloom said, if you're using JS, all bets are off.
22:29	Raynes	bbloom: What's the answer for both of those? :p
22:30	callenbot	Raynes: start here: http://meeech.amihod.com/very-useful-find-unused-css-rules-with-google
22:30	bbloom	Raynes: depends, do you create elements or add classes with javascript?
22:30	callenbot	bbloom: stop being pedantic and start feeding him tools to experiment with.
22:30	Raynes	bbloom: Maybe like two or three.
22:30	Raynes	Now don't be mean. I've got all night, guys. :P
22:30	Raynes	bbloom: The answer is "not really".
22:31	bbloom	callenbot: i'm not being pedantic, i'm not gonna point him towards a tool if it's gonna be useless to him
22:31	callenbot	I should be happy by all rights. I'm listening to a history podcast, drinking milk, and eating reese's pieces.
22:31	Raynes	The ones it does create are important and I know this, so static analysis should be very helpful.
22:31	bbloom	Raynes: ok, given the "not really" answer, than a static analysis tool works for you. callen's link to the google chrome audit tool is likely a good start
22:31	Raynes	Oh, I didn't even see that in all the noise.
22:31	Raynes	:p
22:31	callenbot	Raynes: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/css-usage/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/dust-me-selectors/
22:31	callenbot	Raynes: http://meeech.amihod.com/very-useful-find-unused-css-rules-with-google
22:32	Raynes	Oh my, I might have to break out the firefox.
22:32	bbloom	Raynes: and then that's the dynamic analysis tool that callenbot mentions right there too
22:32	Raynes	Thanks guys. :D
22:32	bbloom	but i'd avoid that if you know for sure which selectors you use dynamically
22:32	ChongLi	dnolen: wow congrats on the CLJS optimizations
22:33	bbloom	Raynes: you can create a dummy `display: hidden` div or whatever with all your dynamic classes on it. that would protect a static analysis tool from reporting them as unused
22:33	Raynes	Neat.
22:34	bbloom	Raynes: but first you need to cull your unused html, heh
22:35	Raynes	bbloom: I have unused HTML? 2_2
22:35	bbloom	Raynes: i don't know. i don't even know what project you're discussing
22:35	bbloom	just saying
22:36	Raynes	Refheap, of course.
22:36	Raynes	I'm pretty sure I don't have any unused html.
22:36	dnolen	pretty low level stuff - but for the curious http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/bd8c9af0fd85d99695c45f40f7e20da740395c23
22:37	bbloom	that's good :-) try doing a full site redesign with 100+ templates. you find unused code a couple lines at a time for months afterwards, heh
22:38	dnolen	one fun trick I've been using is that variadic functions generate code like this
22:38	dnolen	(cljs.core.foo cljs.core_array_seq([1,2,3]))
22:38	dnolen	so in the foo you can check to see if you got an IndexedSeq and just grab the array out of that.
22:39	dnolen	list / set perf enhancements use this
22:39	ChongLi	nice
22:39	dnolen	similar tricks are employed in CLJ JVM
22:40	alandipert	cool, i will leverage in priority-map
22:42	pbostrom	Raynes: init-defs old-defs new-defs defs...you are trying to kill me aren't you
22:42	Raynes	I warned you about suicide.
22:44	bbloom	dnolen: despite my nit-picking comments. all these changes LGTM!
22:47	dnolen	bbloom: hehe, nit-picking always appreciated
22:47	bbloom	dnolen: good, b/c it's my specialty
22:53	bbloom	dnolen: i assume you've written CSS files, but have you ever written an XSLT file?
22:53	bbloom	(just curious about your background knowledge, so that i can save some typing on an upcoming question)
22:56	dnolen	bbloom: yes I both liked it and hated it
22:56	bbloom	dnolen: liked idea, hated XML, i assume? heh
22:57	dnolen	bbloom: more or less, but it was a long time ago - so maybe I would like XSLT more now?
22:58	dnolen	bbloom: I'm about to run, if you've got a question shoot!
22:58	bbloom	dnolen: less of a question and more of a thought for you to ponder:
22:59	bbloom	dnolen: if you think about both XPath expressions and CSS Selectors as predicates, you can think about XSLT template matching and CSS styling as predicate dispatch. the itneresting bit is that CSS matches happen PER RULE, not per selector. so you actually need to do stuff on interior nodes of the decision tree
23:00	bbloom	dnolen: ie you might have two rules: .foo {color: red} and .foo.bar {background:blue} and then to efficiently style, you need to wallk the decision tree looking for .foo and apply color:red, then keep walking to test for .bar
23:00	bbloom	dnolen: which is generalized beyond predicate dispatch
23:01	bbloom	dnolen: just an interesting thought that occurred to me: there are other ways to compile the predicate matrix other than input->method. you could have input->matches where the matches can be a pre or post fix walk
23:01	bbloom	dnolen: that's all
23:03	bbloom	heh, and CSS's "important!" is basically prefer-method :-P
23:03	dnolen	yes it's interesting - again this reminds me of tree automata and tree pattern matching, which someone brought up when we first release core.match
23:04	dnolen	can't say I know much about either - nor how hard it would be to make core.match do something along those lines
23:04	dnolen	I'm skeptical that core.match's machinery can be hijacked for this purpose
23:04	bbloom	dnolen: ok, i'll google up those keywords
23:04	dnolen	but I could be wrong
23:04	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, i'm not sure. i think i might take a crack at a library that ONLY handles the construction of predicate expressions
23:04	dnolen	we should talk to Chris Frisz & Will Byrd and the other IU folk
23:04	dnolen	at Clojure/West
23:04	bbloom	absolutely!
23:04	dnolen	they use an interesting cata-matcher in the compiler
23:05	dnolen	so in the pattern you can have a recursive match
23:05	dnolen	that gets traversed first
23:05	dnolen	but perhaps this is ideal for compilers
23:05	dnolen	but then that makes it more relevant to you.
23:05	bbloom	dnolen: hmm... didn't even think about recursion, heh
23:05	bbloom	in the patterns, i mean
23:06	dnolen	cata for catamorphism
23:06	dnolen	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catamorphism
23:06	bbloom	ok, well i'll dig in to this some more. this is all relatively need ground for me. i hope to add some cool stuff to fipp with all this
23:06	bbloom	which, in turn, will help my other project ;-)
23:07	dnolen	bbiab
23:07	bbloom	cya
23:09	yedi_	is there an equivalent to python's `in` in clojure?
23:09	yedi_	i know contains? isn't it cuz that deals with keys/indices
23:12	yedi_	nvm, found the `some` trick
23:19	brehaut	yedi_: or consider a set rather than a seq/list/vector
23:32	ldh	leiningen profile question: if I declare :profiles {:dev {:dependencies [[some.dependency "0.0.1"]]}}, is it expected that heroku still fetches some.dependency from clojars when I deploy? I'm running using "lein trampoline with-profile production run", shouldn't that override dev dependencies?
23:38	Raynes	dev dependencies shouldn't happen at all because heroku sets LEIN_NO_DEV.
23:38	Raynes	Not sure if they still get fetched or not.
23:38	Raynes	I wouldn't expect it.
23:39	ldh	that's what i would think, too.
23:40	technomancy	LEIN_NO_DEV was a hack for 1.x
23:40	technomancy	but... I think there's a bug where trampoline triggers the dependencies before stripping dev stuff out
23:40	technomancy	ldh: try swapping the order for now as a workaround
23:40	technomancy	`lein with-profile production trampoline run`
23:42	ldh	ok. i just did "heroku run bash" and then compared "lein classpath" with "lein with-profile production classpath" and that seemed correct. i'll try swapping the order as well
23:45	ldh	i didn't see the log message that it was fetched this time, but maybe it only does that the first time a new dependency is introduced? shrug
23:51	Icarot	For a web programmer, does anyone know if using Clojure is actually somewhat mature?
23:51	Icarot	Compared to, maybe, say Backbone.js or <insert hip framework here>
23:57	xeqi	.. I consider those used for different purposes, or were you asking about clojurescript?
23:59	pbostrom	Raynes: I made a little bit of progress (I think); this line seems to def a new tester sym every time some code is evaluated, which fills up the def quota: https://github.com/flatland/clojail/blob/master/src/clojail/core.clj#L165