#clojure – 2013-02-13

2013-02-13

00:06	Frozenlock	I have a limited understanding of java, but I think this is where everything begins https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L229 Two little missing .setDynamic.
00:11	abp	amalloy: quite comprehensive.. https://www.refheap.com/paste/11239 any more to shave off?
00:23	abp	Is there a function that turns a val or a seq into a seq?
00:37	jibble	How can I append to a vector that's a couple of levels deep in a map?
00:37	jibble	I want the whole map, plus a new thing added to a vector that's nested within
00:38	jeremyheiler	jibble, use update-in
00:38	jibble	jeremyheiler: thx, will look at it
00:38	abp	,(update-in {:a {:b {:c [1 2]}}} [:a :b :c] conj 3)
00:38	clojurebot	{:a {:b {:c [1 2 3]}}}
00:39	abp	^ jibble
00:40	xeqi	Raynes: https://www.refheap.com/paste/11240 ; should that work?
00:40	jibble	abp: thanks, that's it
00:41	Raynes	xeqi: Nope, fragment-to-html.
00:41	Raynes	xeqi: Or you can map to-html, I think. If you just wanted the individual strings.
00:47	xeqi	Raynes: ah. I'm really trying to do something like https://www.refheap.com/paste/11242
00:48	Raynes	xeqi: Use html-content instead of content and I think it'll work.
00:50	xeqi	html-content + fragment-to-html works, thanks
00:50	xeqi	is there an equivalent for replace?
00:52	Raynes	xeqi: I think replace replaces the :content vector in place. If you pass it a seq, it should just put it there, so it should Just Work.
00:53	Raynes	Like, IIRC ((laser/replace (laser/parse-fragment "<a></a") {:content []}) should = {:content [{node for a}]}
00:54	yedi	is there a function for getting a submap of a map containing only the specific key-value pairs that you want
00:54	xeqi	&(doc select-keys)
00:54	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/select-keys ([map keyseq]) Returns a map containing only those entries in map whose key is in keys nil
00:54	Raynes	xeqi: Also, you can probably use the 'nodes' function instead of parse-fragment. It delegates to it when given a string.
00:55	Raynes	&(select-keys {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} [:a :b])
00:55	lazybot	⇒ {:b 2, :a 1}
00:55	yedi	cool, thanks
00:55	Raynes	xeqi: You don't have to, but it is shorter than 'parse-fragment' so I thought I'd mention it. :)
00:57	xeqi	Raynes: https://www.refheap.com/paste/11243 ; nodes work where parse-fragment doesn't, thanks!
00:58	Raynes	That's weird.
00:58	Raynes	I guess I've forgotten how it works already.
00:58	Raynes	Oh.
00:58	xeqi	heh
00:59	Raynes	xeqi: Okay, so the problem is that parse-fragment turns the parsed nodes into a zipper.
00:59	Raynes	Usually you just want to pass the nodes themselves.
00:59	Raynes	So there is parse-fragment* for that.
00:59	Raynes	And that's what nodes delegates to.
00:59	Raynes	So yeah, just use that.
01:01	Raynes	xeqi: And in case you're curious as to why nodes exists, it's because it is the 'normalizing' function of sorts. If you pass it a string, it calls parse-fragment* on it to give you a collection of nodes; if you call it with something sequential, it assumes it is already a seq of nodes and is identity; and if you pass it something that is not a string or sequential, it assumes it is a single node (a map) and wraps it in a vector and returns it. Yay, no
01:01	Raynes	rmalization!
01:02	abp	Coding is done, now comes the hard-part: Naming. Those functions, maps and immediate values are all the same. :(
01:12	clifton	hehe, hello world clojurescript file 750kb
01:20	abp	Is it normal not to put /bin into .gitignore?
01:40	xeqi	Raynes: I got everything working, thanks
01:40	Raynes	xeqi: Coolio. Happy to hear it.
01:42	michaelr525	good morning
01:58	sturner	Anyone have much experience embedding nRepl in java applications or using closure as a plugin/scripting language within java? I'm attempting to extend and enhance a java applications plugin architecture with clojure. So far, I've successfully passed context/state via intern to the repl and I am now exploring how to use gen-class to fully implement the plugin api in clojure.
02:20	Phonatacid	oh hey, I've almost finished a project of mine (my first in clojure) and I released it via uberjar. Since it includes sing-based UIs usng seesaw (and some other libraries) the uberjar I get from it weighs 12mo. To really have an idea of how heavy is seesaw i built a dummy project that just displays a jdialog (using seesaw's dialog function). And it turns out it weighs 8mo. How can I minimize it and trash all the unused
02:20	Phonatacid	classes (it appears this jar also embeds swing examples!)
02:25	noidi	Phonatacid, I haven't tried it, but maybe ProGuard could help? http://proguard.sourceforge.net/
02:25	noidi	"It detects and removes unused classes, fields, methods, and attributes. It optimizes bytecode and removes unused instructions."
02:26	Phonatacid	yes I'm currently trying to achieve "something" with it. Quite an heavy piece of software. I think a proguard leiningen plugin would be welcome.
02:28	Frozenlock	Phonatacid: do it now! :)
02:29	Phonatacid	I was considering it actually ! But i'm still a baby when it comes to clojure !
07:03	borkdude	Which Python version does clojure-py assume
07:05	Foxboron	borkdude: looking at the source, i see "print x, y" so i assume 2.7.3
07:05	borkdude	Foxboron yes, hm
07:05	Foxboron	borkdude: it uses optparser, but it still got new objects. So its 2.7 :P
07:06	Foxboron	new style classes*
07:07	borkdude	I wonder why this isn't made explicit
07:10	Foxboron	borkdude: dunno tbh :/
07:10	lucian	borkdude: it's the default anyway
07:10	lucian	it's what people mean when they say "python"
07:10	Foxboron	lucian: naaahhhh
07:10	Foxboron	It would be true a few months ago. But lately Python3 is on the march.
07:11	lucian	it's still not practically usable
07:11	lucian	it will be in a few years, but 2.7 is what we all use
07:11	Foxboron	lucian: no, but it's getting more and more common.
07:11	lucian	i'd say very slightly more common that it has been. there are still many useful libraries missing, and more importantly PyPy
07:12	lucian	portability between CPython 2.7 and PyPy is more useful
07:12	lucian	and is likely to require similar effort
07:13	Foxboron	i totally agree.
07:13	Foxboron	But again. saying python nowdays dosnt explicitly mean python2.7.
07:17	borkdude	Python 3 was my first real introduction to Python ;)
07:17	borkdude	so it's my default anyway
07:17	Foxboron	borkdude: virtualenv is awsome if you encounter some problems with 2 and 3 :P
07:18	borkdude	Foxboron yup, I have one env for 3.0 and one for 2.7 :)
07:18	borkdude	Foxboron also I like Pycharm, which supports virtualenv
07:25	cemerick	does anyone else get compilation warnings w/ defprotocol in a cljs repl? No warnings are emitted when compiling outside of a REPL...
07:28	ChongLi	hmm
07:29	ChongLi	can't even bring up the repl right now
07:29	ChongLi	caching jvm class names forever
07:29	cemerick	hah
07:29	cemerick	actually, I only get warnings if I've moved the repl outside of cljs.user
07:29	ChongLi	I don't rely on the cljs repl too much
07:30	cemerick	yikes
07:30	Bronsa	cemerick: Use of undeclared Var?
07:30	cemerick	Bronsa: yeah, for each of the fn/method names of the protocol
07:30	Bronsa	yep
07:30	Bronsa	me too
07:30	cemerick	is that expected?
07:30	Bronsa	I have no idea
07:30	ChongLi	it's been difficult to deal with
07:30	cemerick	lol
07:30	Bronsa	I wouldn't think so
07:31	ChongLi	I'm not sure how to get it to bring new macros in after they've been added
07:31	ChongLi	I mostly use cljsbuild auto and reloading the browser :(
07:32	ChongLi	and I can't figure out how to get a browser-connected repl working since my application depends on XHR
07:32	ChongLi	and that requires a server
07:32	ChongLi	obviously
07:32	cemerick	you end up needing using two http servers
07:33	cemerick	your one for ring, and then another that the browser repl starts
07:33	ChongLi	can the browser one make XHRs to the ring server?
07:33	cemerick	ChongLi: as a result of a REPL evaluation? sure.
07:34	ChongLi	hmmm
07:34	ChongLi	I'll take another look
07:34	cemerick	I've been picking away at "fixing" all of these things, but every one I knock down, a new one pops up.
07:34	ChongLi	for some reason I had it stuck in my mind that the cross origin policy required the same server, but that doesn't make sense
07:35	ChongLi	a lot of sites use multiple servers; scaling wouldn't be possible otherwise
07:35	ChongLi	alright, time to take another crack at piggieback
07:36	ChongLi	hmm, emacs is locked up hard on caching jvm class names
09:42	SurlyFrog1	Okay, I think I've made progress on my understanding of laziness. I would really appreciate it if someone could take a brief look at this code: http://pastebin.com/ub5p2aTq It is an iteration on the code I wrote yesterday (http://pastebin.com/BQLSEvBs) which amalloy and gfredericks properly pointed out looks like a straight port from Common Lisp and was not actually lazy.
09:49	clgv	SurlyFrog1: is this a training exercise? otherwise you should use `concat`
09:50	alexnixon	SurlyFrog1: looks good, minor points: in the "one seq has data" case you can just return that seq, there's no need to recurse; I believe it's more conventional to use :else rather than :done
09:50	clgv	alexnixon: yes thats righ
09:50	SurlyFrog1	alexnixon: thanks, I was wondering about that.
09:51	clgv	and you could end the `cond` with :else (seq b)
09:51	SurlyFrog1	clgv: not sure `concat` does what I need it to. I want to merge two already sorted seqs (as in a merge-sort)
09:52	SurlyFrog1	clgv: sure, that's shorter
09:52	clgv	SurlyFrog1: oh, I did not read your predicate in the if statement
09:53	clgv	well then I would end the statement with: (cond ... (seq a) a :else (seq b))
09:54	SurlyFrog1	clgv: yep, that makes sense
10:12	amphtrox	I need some help :( http://pastebin.com/xMXQ2bzs
10:15	Chousuke	amphtrox: bindings gets bound to the list you pass it as parameter there
10:22	jeremyheiler	amphtrox, Are you trying to re-create with-open?
10:23	amphtrox	kind of
10:24	amphtrox	but this is a simpler, flawed version
10:25	jeremyheiler	One problem, as Chousuke said, when you cons onto a vector it becomes a seq, and let only allows a vector for the bindings.
10:38	amphtrox	jeremyheiler ok thank you, do you have any idea of an alternative solution?
10:38	amphtrox	im getting nowhere with this :(
10:39	jeremyheiler	What's your reasoning for not using with-open?
10:45	amphtrox	i got this as an assignment is class, to make this macro
10:46	TimMc	amphtrox: Best to note that up-front when asking for help.
10:47	amphtrox	they expect us to write this macro after one lecture in clojure? is that reasonable?
10:47	Chousuke	amphtrox: make sure you understand what each parameter is getting bound to for each call you make to the macro.
10:47	amphtrox	never touched functional languages before
10:47	Chousuke	basically all you're doing is data structure transformation
10:48	Chousuke	you get the macro parameters, and produce a data structure that corresponds to whatever you want.
10:48	Chousuke	a good way to get started is to just write down a few invocations of the macro
10:48	Chousuke	and then the code that the invocations should expand to
10:50	SurlyFrog1	Is there a clean way to interrupt a computation in an nrepl buffer inside emacs? I've told my REPL to do something amazingly dumb that will take forever…. o_O
10:51	lucian	amphtrox: there are lectures in clojure? cool
10:51	jeremyheiler	SurlyFrog1, C-c C-b
10:52	SurlyFrog1	jeremyheiler: thanks
10:53	amphtrox	Chousuke ok thank you, ill try that
10:53	amphtrox	lucian its a part in a course where we try different programming paradigms
10:54	lucian	amphtrox: i see. interesting
11:00	Frozenlock	technomancy: I can't reproduce your serializable example... I obtain (serializable.fn/fn [x] (+ 1 2)) instead of (fn [x] (+ 1 2)). How do you get rid of the namespace prefix?
11:01	Frozenlock	I did (use '[serializable.fn :only (fn)]) beforehand to bring it in the current namespace.
11:09	technomancy	Frozenlock: I actually haven't used serializable-fn since I wrote it at a seajure meeting, sorry.
11:14	luxbock	how does one use clojure.java.shell/with-sh-dir?
11:14	luxbock	I can't find any examples of how to use it and nothing I try seems to work
11:16	jeremyheiler	luxbock, Looking at the source, it appears the variables you can bind are sh-dir and sh-env ... is that what is troubling you?
11:17	jeremyheiler	err... I suppose you just need to pass a string or File as the binding for with-sh-dir, so nevermind.
11:17	jeremyheiler	What is your problem?
11:18	luxbock	say I have a file called file.exe in C:\Stuff and I want to access its output from Clojure
11:18	luxbock	how do I do that?
11:22	jeremyheiler	I assume it woud be like this: (with-sh-dir "C:\\Stuff" (sh "file.exe"))
11:22	jeremyheiler	The output would be a map with the :out key
11:24	luxbock	yeah that's what I tried but it doesn't appear to work
11:24	jeremyheiler	That doesn't help me help you. What is your problem?
11:25	luxbock	ahhhh, it was working, I just misinterpreted the message I was getting
11:25	luxbock	thanks
11:27	jeremyheiler	luxbock, no problem.
11:34	Frozenlock	(def my-fn clojure.core/fn) ---> CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro
11:34	Frozenlock	o_O
11:36	TimMc	,@#'fn
11:36	clojurebot	#<core$fn clojure.core$fn@69e9764a>
11:36	TimMc	...but you'd still need to copy over the var's metadata.
11:37	Frozenlock	Well at this point it's not a big deal. What is '@' for?
11:37	magopian	hello there
11:37	TimMc	,'@#'fn
11:37	clojurebot	(clojure.core/deref (var fn))
11:37	Frozenlock	I usually just use it with atoms, or in macro ~@
11:37	TimMc	@ and ~@ are unrelated
11:38	Frozenlock	Ok so it's really just the @ as with atoms
11:39	TimMc	Yeah.
11:40	Frozenlock	Well now it works, thanks a lot :)
11:45	TimMc	Frozenlock: There may be some more complexity, such as .setMacro on the var. I think flatland/useful might have a var aliasing utility.
12:00	olenhad	Hey folks, whats the best way to deal with audio buffers in clojure? I'm writing a thin layer over java's AudioSystem for basic sound IO, and was thinking of what the clojurian way would be to copy buffers?
12:12	dnolen	olenhad: not really a best way, it's common to write a thin layer around Java interop to make it more fun to use. Some people get ambitious and write DSLs.
12:24	jonasen	dnolen: what's your take on http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-470?focusedCommentId=30583&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-30583 ?
12:25	jonasen	Looking at what defprotocol expands to: Is the else-part only evaluated if (defprotocol...) is entered via the repl? I guess the "then" part is the fast-path of protocol dispatch?
12:25	olenhad	@dnolen: Yeah I was thinking of the former. My concern though is that Java uses subclasses(AudioInput/OutputStream) of Input/OutputStreams in idiomatic AudioSystem code. I could do a literal translation of the code, which in most cases is copying from AudioInputStream to a byte array using a while loop. But that seems unclojurey.
12:26	olenhad	Like here's a sample of what I mean:https://gist.github.com/olenhad/4309581
12:26	oriig	* TODO Fix MLA alert map duplication.
12:26	oriig	* TODO Convert the old configuration file of the alert hints* TODO Fix MLA alert map duplication.
12:27	olenhad	Which I think you might agree is pretty ugly code :(
12:27	Chousuke	considering it's just java calls, I don't think you can get it much neater.
12:28	dnolen	olenhad: well if you're doing audio stuff, you probably care about perf so that code seems conceptually fine to me.
12:29	oriig	ops
12:29	oriig	sorry about that
12:29	dnolen	jonasen: fqn is nothing special, that was what the original code did I believe and I simply moved it to a function to avoid code duplication
12:31	dnolen	jonasen: in fact the top case in your comment is definitely wrong - you access properties on the fn, not the protocol
12:32	jonasen	dnolen: ok
12:32	olenhad	Ah. thanks then.
12:39	cemerick	given a fully-qualified symbol, is there a standard cljs function that will "resolve" that to the corresponding fn?
12:39	gfredericks	is it weird to want ring middleware that opens a db connection and then closes it only once the response has fully finished sending?
12:40	Bronsa	dnolen: ping
12:40	dnolen	Bronsa: pong
12:40	technomancy	cemerick: wouldn't that break with munging and dead code removal?
12:40	Bronsa	re: cljd-470
12:40	Bronsa	are you asking for this? http://sprunge.us/iaHP?diff
12:40	dnolen	Bronsa: yes
12:40	weavejester	gfredericks: Is that because you want a streaming response?
12:40	Bronsa	cljs*
12:40	gfredericks	weavejester: exactly
12:40	dnolen	cemerick: no and it's not really possible under advanced compilation
12:41	jonasen	dnolen: The warning is "WARNING: Use of undeclared Var foo/f at line 2". The protocol name is Foo (with capital F), maybe we should expand to something like foo/Foo$f and not foo/f?
12:41	gfredericks	weavejester: it seems to be an awkward thing to implement
12:41	cemerick	technomancy: ignoring tree-shaking for now; such a thing would have to account for the munging, yeah
12:41	gfredericks	weavejester: though I guess you could have a lazy seq of DB results that closes the connection itself once it's been realized
12:41	cemerick	dnolen: right, there's that munging, too. :-/
12:42	weavejester	gfredericks: Yes, or create an InputStream wrapper around it.
12:42	weavejester	I wonder if there should be a dedicated protocol for Ring bodies
12:42	Bronsa	dnolen: updated the patch
12:42	gfredericks	weavejester: that might be pretty cool
12:43	weavejester	Although that might be re-inventing the wheel, considering libraries like lamina
12:43	cemerick	bugger
12:44	weavejester	Lamina might be a bit heavy though
12:44	dnolen	jonasen: I still don't really understand why this only happens at REPL
12:44	dnolen	Bronsa: on the ticket?
12:44	Bronsa	dnolen: yes
12:45	gfredericks	weavejester: so in what way would it differ from the InputStream interface? e.g., what would the protocol methods be?
12:45	dnolen	Bronsa: I don't see anything changed?
12:46	Bronsa	wait, I didn't read about adding a comment
12:47	dnolen	Bronsa: and you can just explain it to me now :)
12:47	jonasen	dnolen: Is '(. x -foo$Foo$f$arity$1)' null (or undefined) in a repl and not when compiling from file?
12:47	Bronsa	dnolen: regarding the whitespace change, I changed the indentation level, did you notice I changed the "assoc-in .. (merge" to update-in .. merge
12:48	ravster1	say, is everything in clojure lazy-evaluated by default?
12:48	dnolen	Bronsa: yes, but I still don't see why.
12:48	weavejester	gfredericks: I'm not certain. next/close would be the obvious ones, but next what? Perhaps just a seq extended with a close method?
12:49	Bronsa	well. before (get-in @namespaces [ns-name :defs sym]) would return nil and taht's why you'd need assoc-in
12:49	gfredericks	I guess responses can be closed prematurely, so that prevents assuming you can just implicitely close when the whole thing has been read?
12:49	Bronsa	now, at that point, (get-in @namespaces [ns-name :defs sym]) returns {:name name}
12:50	weavejester	gfredericks: Yes, if you have some open resource to clean up, lazy seqs don't have a way of handling that.
12:51	Bronsa	I moved that before "(analyze (assoc env :context :expr) (:init args) sym))" because that analyze call would try to analyze namespace.proto-fn before that is added in the namespace
12:51	Bronsa	you can see it as a (declare proto-fn)
12:51	dnolen	jonasen: I don't see why that matters, that's property access.
12:52	gfredericks	lazy seq extensions are interesting. I was thinking core.logic could use a lazy seq with a "step" extension
12:53	Frozenlock	Grrr... I had a redifining function that made the serialization working for both fn and defn, but the '#()' reader macro doesn't listen.
12:53	gfredericks	Frozenlock: they can't can they? clojure.core gets loaded by a reader that already has them?
12:53	Frozenlock	redefining even.
12:54	TimMc	,'#()
12:54	clojurebot	(fn* [] ())
12:54	TimMc	Frozenlock: #() expands to fn*, not fn.
12:54	dnolen	Bronsa: still not following - why does this affect proto fns and not other fns.
12:54	Frozenlock	Ah... that would have been too easy -_-
12:55	TimMc	And I guess that's a compiler literal.
12:55	Frozenlock	So no redefining of fn*?
12:56	TimMc	,(let [fn* list] (fn* [] 5))
12:56	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval53$fn__54 sandbox$eval53$fn__54@6b281ec1>
12:56	TimMc	,(let [fn list] (fn [] 5))
12:56	clojurebot	([] 5)
12:56	Bronsa	dnolen: this is not specific to protocol fns, this makes so that "(def foo (fn [] (aget ns.foo bar)))" doesn't throw
12:57	Bronsa	defprotocol expands to something like that, that's why it was printing a warning
12:57	Bronsa	as to why it only happens using the repl, i have no idea :)
12:59	Bronsa	s/throw/print a warning/ that is
13:01	dnolen	Bronsa: ok I see now. thanks.
13:09	jonasen	dnolen: There is a warning only for single segment namespaces: (ns foo.bar) (defprotocol Foo (f [x])) does not generate a warning
13:11	atyz	hey guys, i'm trying to deploy a composure/ring app with immutant
13:11	atyz	i get the error No :main namespace specified in project.clj. however i'm not entirely sure what the main method needs
13:12	tcrawley	atyz: come see us in #immutant and we'll see if we can get you sorted out
13:13	atyz	tcrawley: i will do! thanks
13:15	dnolen	jonasen: Bronsa: hmm, I'm going to have to think about this some more - it's not clear to me that foo.bar.-baz should trigger a resolution warning, anything in that form is about interop/implementation details.
13:16	dnolen	it's a bit strange that we get foo/-bar warnings when we emit foo.-bar
13:18	Frozenlock	http://blog.n01se.net/blog-n01se-net-p-41.html what happened to clojure-in-clojure?
13:20	dnolen	jonasen: Bronsa: yes, in the RELP, (ns foo) (fn [] foo.-bar) triggers the same warning
13:20	dnolen	er REPL
13:21	Bronsa	right
13:22	dnolen	I think line 132 in analyzer.clj should never warn - if there's not a namespace and the symbol contains a '.', we have some kind of interop thing happening.
13:22	Bronsa	so probably where to look for a fix is the (.contains s ".") branch of the analyzer
13:22	dnolen	yeah
13:22	Bronsa	s/analyzer/resolve-var
13:27	dnolen	ok that fixes it for me, and all test pass. Any objects jonasen Bronsa?
13:27	dnolen	objections
13:27	Bronsa	sounds right to me
13:31	ieure	cemerick, I'm having a super weird issue with friend.
13:31	ieure	cemerick, I'm using the http-basic workflow, but when auth fails I get a 302 to /login instead of a 401.
13:32	cemerick	ieure: sounds like a recently-fixed bug....one sec
13:32	cemerick	ieure: what version are you using?
13:32	Frozenlock	weavejester: I see that hiccup-bootstrap has bootrap.min.js included, but doesn't use it. Is there a reason?
13:32	ieure	cemerick, 0.1.3.
13:33	ieure	cemerick, So the weird part is that I wrote a unit test. It works correctly in the test, but not when I run the service.
13:33	ieure	Soooooo
13:34	weavejester	Frozenlock: hiccup-bootstrap is pretty incomplete at the moment
13:34	ieure	cemerick, Yeah, so; If I pass in credentials, right or wrong, I get the correct response (200 from my route or 401 for wrong creds).
13:34	magopian	guy, i'm very new with clojure (even though i have done 100-or-so problems on 4clojure), very noob, and am looking for where to go from there, to code/read some actual real code
13:34	ieure	cemerick, No creds at all gives me 302.
13:34	magopian	thinking about github, open source projects i could read (and even maybe cntribute to), any advices?
13:35	cemerick	ieure: see https://github.com/cemerick/friend/issues/38 and the link to :unauthenticated-handler usage in the mock app
13:35	magopian	(on project names)
13:35	weavejester	Frozenlock: I haven't had a lot of time to work on it lately
13:35	ieure	Okay cemerick.
13:35	cemerick	ieure: no creds at all should get an auth challenge
13:36	cemerick	That's what the :unauthenticated-handler allows you to force
13:36	ieure	cemerick, Right; but a 401 _is_ a HTTP Basic auth challenge.
13:36	dnolen	http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/e33a6ba9c4b6e8d744e1ac2f3e784822459a5530
13:36	weavejester	magopian: What are your interests, in terms of programming? e.g. web design, networking, distributed computing, graphics, etc.
13:37	Frozenlock	weavejester: What?! You mean that with the SMALL libraries like ring and compojure, you don't have the time to make another one! Sheeesh!
13:37	weavejester	magopian: A project in an area you're interested in might grab your attention more than a random one
13:37	magopian	weavejester: i'm a web (django) developper at the moment, and have been for several years
13:37	cemerick	ieure: but unless you force it, the http-basic workflow doesn't know that it's the only one in play, so it's not going to send back a 401 in case the request can be auth'ed by another workflow later on
13:37	weavejester	Frozenlock: I'm such a slacker :)
13:37	Frozenlock	:P
13:37	magopian	weavejester: sure, i had a look (very quickly) at compojure, ring, lib-noir
13:38	magopian	i'm also looking for recommendation on "clean" (and if possible "simple") code to read
13:38	Frozenlock	I guess I'll have to learn bootstrap then. :/
13:38	magopian	for example in the python world, it's well known that code from KEnneth Reitz or Armin Ronacher are awesome, perfect to read/learn
13:38	weavejester	Frozenlock: It's basically just a bunch of CSS classes for making pages look pretty.
13:38	magopian	wondering if there's something like those advices for clojure )
13:39	magopian	i was two videos from james reeves and got mind blown
13:39	ieure	cemerick, Yeah, I get it. But in practice, do people really have >1 workflow for the same endpoint?
13:39	magopian	that's what led me to compojure/ring, not sure if it's a good start though for a beginner
13:40	weavejester	magopian: I'm glad you enjoyed the videos. I'm not sure what would be a good project to look at for a beginner, as I think I'd find it hard to judge what would be easy code to follow from a beginners point of view.
13:41	ieure	cemerick, How do you feel about having authenticate* count the workflows and use the unauth'd response if (= (count workflows) 1)?
13:41	weavejester	magopian: I like to think Ring is fairly easy to follow, and people have mentioned that in the past, but I have something of a bias when it comes to Ring/Compojure :)
13:41	magopian	hahaha, totally didn't get that you were james reeves, sorry ;) (btw sent you a "thank you" email this afternoon ;)
13:42	weavejester	magopian: Ah, that was you? I was going to send a response later.
13:42	magopian	weavejester: yup ;)
13:42	magopian	as i said, it blew my mind
13:42	n_b	magopian: Look at raynes' library tentacles
13:42	magopian	coming from OOP and MVC and all that stuff...
13:42	cemerick	ieure: sure; an API endpoint that is also used by a web frontend needs to support e.g. HTTP basic + a user-interactive login
13:42	n_b	It's quite easy to understand and is well documented
13:43	magopian	n_b: https://github.com/Raynes/tentacles#readme ? awesome, i'll look at that too then ;)
13:43	magopian	thanks, that's two good starting points, thanks people
13:43	ieure	cemerick, Honestly I don't think I've ever seen that in practice either. But, whatever, would you be okay with the change I suggested?
13:43	weavejester	magopian: You might want to try writing some code, and then asking on #clojure what you could do to improve it (if anything)
13:43	weavejester	Or the clojure google group, perhaps
13:43	n_b	The pastebin he works on is quite nice too, but the name is escaping me atm
13:44	ieure	cemerick, Alternately the first/last of the workflow unauth responses could be used as the default if no specific handler is specified.
13:44	cemerick	ieure: if a workflow returns a ring response, authenticate* always sends that through
13:44	maio	is there some way to make clojure startup faster? it takes 15 seconds to "lein run" empty ring app
13:44	ieure	cemerick, I really don't see how this design works in practice, though. If you have multiple auth methods but only one unauth handler, won't N of them always get an inappropriate response?
13:45	ieure	cemerick, So if you use OAuth / interactive-form, your OAuth consumer would get the wrong flow, or your interactive would.
13:45	n_b	magopian: Refheap! Is the one. That's a good ring sample IMO.
13:45	weavejester	maio: There's drip, but I didn't have much luck with that.
13:46	cemerick	ieure: only if you try to put them both on the same URI or something
13:46	magopian	n_b: perfect, i'll add that to the list ;)
13:46	magopian	weavejester: will do that ;) is https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring the "official" repository for ring?
13:46	weavejester	magopian: Yep
13:47	ieure	cemerick, Isn't that the exact usecase you were just suggesting?
13:48	magopian	awesome, thanks again ;)
13:49	cemerick	ieure: No, because interactive-form sits on one URI, whereas http-basic can sprawl across any (and trying to http-basic auth against e.g. /login would be dumb and pointless from the client's perspective)
13:49	ieure	cemerick, Right, but wouldn't it make more sense to use different routes with one workflow per in that case?
13:49	weavejester	cemerick: In bandalore, is there a way of making a polling-receieve poll indefinitely?
13:50	ieure	You can put the same endpoints in multiple routes if you need to reuse that code.
13:51	cemerick	ieure: Perhaps, but your app routing isn't friend's concern.
13:51	cemerick	Maybe it should be, and maybe it will be for some friend-friendly add-on (esp. for establishing route-level access policies, for example), but that's not here now.
13:52	cemerick	weavejester: I barely remember that I wrote something called 'bandalore' at this point. ;-\|
13:52	weavejester	cemerick: Haha :)
13:52	cemerick	weavejester: is that the fn that returns a lazy seq of messages?
13:52	weavejester	I might be submitting some pull requests for it, although it's pretty complete
13:52	cemerick	should carry on indefinitely, if memory serves
13:53	cemerick	weavejester: it's actually not; there's a bunch of SQS features that were released some time after my attention drifted
13:53	weavejester	cemerick: Yeah. There's an example where a :max-wait is set to Integer/MAX_VALUE, but as far as I can tell, it's in milliseconds, so that's a maximum of 24.85 days.
13:54	weavejester	cemerick: So for queues that aren't used much, the process might randomly end :)
13:54	cemerick	weavejester: that's got to be the strangest humblebrag of all time ;-)
13:55	weavejester	cemerick: humblebrag?
13:56	cemerick	don't worry about it, I barely know what it means :-P
13:56	weavejester	Ah, okay
13:56	cemerick	weavejester: :max-wait is millis, but doesn't correspond with any AWS api -- that's just limiting the cumulative Thread/sleep'ing that'll be done between receiving messages.
13:56	cemerick	Toss Long/MAX_VALUE at it, and you'll be good for a while
13:57	weavejester	cemerick: Ah, so it doesn't have to be an int
13:57	cemerick	weavejester: nope; not sure why I used an int...
13:57	weavejester	cemerick: That'll probably solve it. I only noticed it because a worker watching a test queue died.
13:58	weavejester	It hadn't received any data in a while.
14:02	Frozenlock	amalloy: Last week you gave me link to a middleware in ring to get the current URI. I... lost it... Could you, in your infinite generosity, give it again?
14:03	amalloy	Frozenlock: i could, but instead i'll just give you a hint to encourage future foraging: most of the interesting middlewares i use or wrote are in 4clojure
14:03	Frozenlock	Good enough, thanks!
14:03	Raynes	amalloy: And most of them get moved to lib-noir.
14:04	amalloy	good point. i wonder if you stole that one
14:04	cemerick	weavejester: I made the slightest possible change to the bandalore readme :-P
14:04	amalloy	nope
14:05	Frozenlock	Raynes: Really? I just checked lib-noir and assumed the requested part had been removed: http://www.luminusweb.net/noir-api/noir.request.html
14:06	weavejester	cemerick: Thanks :)
14:07	Raynes	Frozenlock: https://github.com/noir-clojure/lib-noir/blob/master/src/noir/util/middleware.clj is our collection of middleware.
14:07	Raynes	Relatively small middleware, anyways.
14:16	nishant	Hi! Does anyone know which namespaces are loaded in the 4clojure REPL?
14:56	muhoo	has someone already written a macro to deal with java patterns like (let [foo (Constructor.)] (.init foo) foo) ? or is it in clojure core already?
14:56	amalloy	&(doc doto)
14:56	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/doto ([x & forms]) Macro Evaluates x then calls all of the methods and functions with the value of x supplied at the front of the given arguments. The forms are evaluated in order. Returns x. (doto (new java.uti... https://www.refheap.com/paste/11259
14:56	muhoo	doh
14:56	muhoo	thanks
14:57	amalloy	nishant: you should behave as though all you have is clojure.core, clojure.string, and clojure.set, since those are the namespaces that the repl auto-loads for you. in practice, you might accidentally have access to some others
14:58	muhoo	hmm, hot to chain them will be interesting, when i get crap like this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/11258
15:03	amalloy	muhoo: -> and doto go together like two things that go really well together
15:03	muhoo	this is what i got so far, doesn't compile, i'll figure it out https://www.refheap.com/paste/11260
15:05	Raynes	That doesn't do at all what you think it does, muhoo.
15:05	amalloy	i don't recommend actually doing it this way, but https://www.refheap.com/paste/11262 should be equivalent
15:05	muhoo	Raynes: yeah, it throws an exception, is what it does :-)
15:06	amalloy	oh, i don't need the -> there at all
15:06	muhoo	amalloy: wow, if you can do in 15 seconds what takes me 2 hours to do, how will i learn to do it in less than 2 hours? :-)
15:07	muhoo	amalloy: thanks though
15:12	Raynes	muhoo: The secret is that you don't need to learn to, since you can just ask amalloy. That's what I do. I actually know nothing at all, I just top off when I need it.
15:13	muhoo	i used to work at a place where the answer to almost every question was "ask jerry"
15:14	Raynes	lol
15:14	magopian	Raynes: do you need some kind of token to "ask amalloy" ? or is it free for all? :)
15:14	Raynes	muhoo: I work with Alan in person. In fact, he is right across the room from me. I'm blessed, sir.
15:14	Raynes	It's like having an encyclopedia I don't have to actually look things up in.
15:14	muhoo	oh, you're in la now? awesome!
15:15	Raynes	indeed
15:15	magopian	hey Raynes btw i read your post on "moving away from noir" this afternoon, very clear ;)
15:16	Raynes	Excellent.
15:16	Raynes	Glad to hear it.
15:16	muhoo	heh, the source of doto is exactly what i typed.
15:17	magopian	and you've been advised (with refheap) as the "code you should read because it's clear and clean" to me (as a newbie)
15:18	Raynes	Oh stop, you're making me blush.
15:18	magopian	that wasn't my aim, but eh, let it be ;)
15:19	magopian	it's so easy to see/read/give negative comments on the internet (especially in the OSS world?)
15:19	magopian	i believe it's as (much more?) important to give good feedback and thanks
15:20	Raynes	Well, it is certainly appreciated.
15:20	muhoo	it seems it's changed oer the years. i find people a lot nicer these days than a decade or two ago
15:20	magopian	muhoo: is that true?
15:20	magopian	i keep seeing a**holes spitting out venom at everything
15:21	muhoo	magopian: for a very limited value of "true", my personal experience
15:21	muhoo	well, don't hang out in #anonymous then :-)
15:21	magopian	and in general, educated and clever people dissing each other
15:21	magopian	haha :)
15:21	magopian	i believe i'm part of a pretty "cool" community (django and python devs)
15:22	muhoo	the era of the brilliant a-hole working alone i[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[Cs pretty much over. the world is big and complex, and people need to work together. that's what i've seen.
15:22	magopian	so there isn't too much meanies, but still, you more often hear advice _against_ than _for_ libraries, for example
15:22	magopian	s/too much/too many/
15:26	muhoo	magopian: anyway, i've found the clojure world very supportive. nice people. enjoy.
15:26	magopian	muhoo: thanks ;)
15:27	magopian	let's see how it goes, i had a short stay here a few months ago when i first started learning clojure (by solving problems on 4clojure <3)
15:27	magopian	but my day job (and young daughter ;) ate away my free time
15:28	magopian	we'll see how it goes this time around
16:16	canweriotnow	Any advice for testing fns with verbose text output?
16:16	canweriotnow	like, say one that uses hiccup to generate an html table?
16:26	ivan	round-trip it back to hiccup
16:29	Seba51	Having a function with a rest param &foo, How can I pass it a list or vector?
16:30	ivan	apply, if I assume correctly
16:30	canweriotnow	ivan can you elaborate?
16:31	ivan	canweriotnow: presumably the main annoyance is having all that ugly HTML in your test files, and perhaps this can be avoided by turning the HTML back into hiccup structures
16:31	ivan	e.g. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11094837/is-there-a-parser-for-html-to-hiccup-structures
16:31	canweriotnow	sweet, thanks!
16:31	Seba51	Thanks, you assumed correctly.
16:33	ivan	so does anyone have a fork of hiccup that doesn't require (h ) to avoid XSS?
16:34	ivan	presumably by keeping the entire structure until it's time to output HTML
16:34	TimMc	ivan: clojars
16:34	TimMc	Their fork screws around with protocols a bit.
16:36	ivan	their project.clj points to [hiccup "1.0.1"]
16:41	xeqi	ivan: https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/blob/master/src/clojars/web/safe_hiccup.clj
16:41	ivan	awesome, thanks
16:41	xeqi	I haven't pulled it out into its own fork yet
16:42	gfredericks	is the inverse of interleave in clojure.core?
16:43	TimMc	gfredericks: partition
16:43	TimMc	sort of
16:43	gfredericks	partition is the inverse of concat
16:43	amalloy	$google 4clojure reverse interleave
16:43	lazybot	[public jamiltron / 4clojure-solutions - GitHub] https://github.com/jamiltron/4clojure-solutions/blob/master/solutions.clj
16:44	gfredericks	that solution has quote in it O_O
16:45	ivaraasen	dnolen: ping
16:45	dnolen	ivaraasen: pong
16:48	ivaraasen	dnolen: looking at paraconsistent logic formalisms. I wonder if it would be possible to do something similar in core.logic. would be nice for inconsistent data sets
16:49	ivaraasen	dnolen: there appears to have been a Prolog dialect for this (Paralog e)
16:51	TimMc	gfredericks: Yeah, I have some concerns about that solution.
16:52	dnolen	ivaraasen: I've never looked at paraconsistent logic, but Google seems to show that some people seem interested in the topic in relation to Prolog
16:54	dnolen	ivaraasen: you could probably put create a core.logic extension to support paraKanren or some such - but I can't give any guidance on that
16:56	ivaraasen	dnolen: I'll give it a shot this weekend
16:58	dnolen	ivaraasen: might be worth prototyping against miniKanren first
17:15	siscia	hey guys, I need a little hit
17:15	siscia	it is something pretty stupid I guess...
17:15	siscia	I have a function defined like so:
17:16	siscia	(defn a [f a & more] (map f a more))
17:16	siscia	but I have problem with the more...
17:17	Iceland_jack	siscia: Do you intend on using the identifier `a' twice?
17:17	siscia	nope, sorry
17:17	siscia	(defn function [f a & more] (map f a more))
17:19	siscia	(defn function [f a & more] (map f a more))
17:19	siscia	#'parallel-colt-matrix.core/function
17:19	siscia	parallel-colt-matrix.core> (function + [1 2] [3 4])
17:19	siscia	ClassCastException clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number clojure.lang.Numbers.add (Numbers.java:126)
17:19	siscia	im pretty sure the problem is the rest argument (& more)
17:19	siscia	but i don't know how to solve it...
17:19	siscia	any ideas ?
17:21	rck	what is the eta for 1.5?
17:22	hugod	is map destructuring on protocol function arguments removed in 1.5?
17:25	dnolen	hugod: works for me
17:26	hugod	1.5 RC15 refuses to compile such a protocol for me
17:29	amalloy	hugod: paste? i don't think anything like that has changed recently
17:30	hugod	https://www.refheap.com/paste/11264
17:31	hugod	passes in 1.4, but not in 1.5 RC15
17:31	hugod	code added in CLJ-1024 to reject this case
17:36	dnolen	hugod: oh, I don't think putting destructuring in the protocol def was ever really supported
17:36	dnolen	only in implementations
17:37	hugod	seems to work fine in 1.4
17:38	dnolen	hugod: which doesn't mean it was supported
17:39	hugod	I never saw anything saying don't use it
17:40	dnolen	hugod: I think Clojure has enough cases like that where if there's isn't explicit documentation saying it's supported, it's probably not
17:41	hugod	what's the best way of getting clarification?
17:42	amalloy	i don't think this was a good patch to accept. throwing an exception for & makes sense, because otherwise you get subtly confusing behavior; but destructuring the argument name causes no problems, and can be useful as documentation
17:43	hiredman	http://books.google.com/books?id=I8KdEKceCHAC&pg=PA265&lpg=PA265&dq=protocol+destructuring+clojure&source=bl&ots=wNkKSbT7f4&sig=F_PiZFJbFfPbuRxSbJr97-vVpQ4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2RYcUfOoFca6iwLz7IBw&ved=0CE4Q6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=protocol%20destructuring%20clojure&f=false not that I accept this as authority, but it is in ink
17:43	gfredericks	amalloy: could it be confusing?
17:43	gfredericks	i.e., give the impression that it's more than documentation?
17:43	dnolen	hugod: when in doubt, ask on the dev list - submit a docstring enhancement. In CLJS we like and accept warning patches to the analyzer.
17:45	dnolen	I think malformed defprotocol/type/record should be errors.
17:49	hugod	I agree the malformed protocols should error - I don't see this is as malformed though. It's specifying an arglist which is valid.
17:51	SurlyFrog	I have a list of files to operate on. I can (map io/reader (map io/resource ["file1" "file2" …])) to get them all open, however, I'd like to use that list inside a `with-open` form. Any ideas on how that could be done?
17:52	SurlyFrog	Meaning, I'd like to programmatically construct `(with-open [x (io/reader x) y (io/reader y) …]…)` without having prior knowledge about how many files might be in that list.
17:54	dnolen	hugod: I don't really have a strong opinion about it. I don't really think of destructuring as being part of the fn signature (unlike rest args), but I might be in the minority here.
17:58	borkdude	when did the original clojure.core/read(-string) evaluate code?
17:59	technomancy	borkdude: whenever read-eval wasn't rebound to false
17:59	borkdude	technomancy so, (clojure.core/read-string "(System/exit 0)") should exit my program?
18:00	technomancy	oh, no that'd be (read-string "#=(System/exit 0)")
18:00	technomancy	still does that, fwiw
18:01	borkdude	technomancy I see.
18:03	borkdude	technomancy so the problem would arise in for example a web application if someone entered #=(System/exit 0) in a text field where you expected some other string
18:03	technomancy	sure, if you're lucky
18:04	borkdude	(clojure.core/read-string "#=(System/exit 0)") ;;=> ClassNotFoundException System java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run (URLClassLoader.java:202)
18:04	technomancy	oh, that'd be java.lang.System
18:04	arrdem	clojurebot anyone?
18:04	borkdude	ah yes
18:04	technomancy	if you're not lucky they make off with sensitive user data; wipe your DB and backups, and send rude letters to upper management
18:06	borkdude	(clojure.edn/read-string "#=(java.lang.System/exit 0)") ;;=> RuntimeException No dispatch macro for: = clojure.lang.Util.runtimeException (Util.java:219)
18:07	amalloy	technomancy: as rhickey pointed out, read-string runs [some] code regardless of the read-eval settings, eg via the #my.record[1 2 3] syntax
18:07	technomancy	amalloy: yeah, borkdude was specifically asking about the "original" read-string
18:07	technomancy	that stuff was a later addition
18:08	amalloy	well, 1.3
18:08	technomancy	back when the reader was cool, and before all this new nonsense =\
18:08	pjstadig	technomancy: you're such a reader hipster
18:08	arrdem	technomancy: our reader is still pretty dang cool... no reader macros and "fun stuff"
18:09	technomancy	pjstadig: it used to be you could trust the reader!
18:09	dnolen	borkdude: even w/ read-eval set to false too many loop holes in read - the subtleties of http://tenderlovemaking.com/2013/02/06/yaml-f7u12.html is a good analogy
18:10	technomancy	trying to come up with a metafictional/fourth-wall joke here but I'm having a hard time, sorry
18:10	SegFaultAX	technomancy: Are you not a fan of ednor reader literals?
18:10	SegFaultAX	edn or*
18:11	borkdude	amalloy do you mean "read macros" still form a security issue in the edn/read-string?
18:11	technomancy	SegFaultAX: I'm fairly horrified by the fact that the reader can return mutable objects; the fact that they can be java.util.Date (the worst class in the entire JDK) is salt on the wound. the uuid literals aren't horrible so much as silly.
18:12	borkdude	amalloy readER macros
18:12	technomancy	SegFaultAX: edn strikes me as just an attempt to get back what we had before reader literals complicated things.
18:13	technomancy	well, that's the charitable explanation that doesn't ascribe it to an attempt to drum up support for community-created datomic drivers in other languages anyway
18:13	borkdude	does anyone really use custom reader literals?
18:13	dnolen	borkdude: yes
18:14	SegFaultAX	Why is the reader returning mutable objects a bad thing necessarily?
18:15	technomancy	it used to be you could make assumptions about the stability of what the reader returned; now you can't
18:15	hiredman	technomancy uses a monkey patched version of jdbc that doesn't return java.sql.Date or java.sql.Timestamp
18:15	technomancy	assuming you're dealing primarily with values is one of the major draws of Clojure
18:16	technomancy	hiredman: well, nobody claims jdbc is particularly good
18:17	technomancy	if a database is involved, you necessarily already have to start paying more attention because things are going to be messy
18:18	borkdude	it is one giant mutable thing, scary
18:18	technomancy	mutability on its own is a problem, but j.u.Date is an incredible case of bad API design on multiple fronts
18:19	hiredman	we use dates (java.util and java.sql) all over at work, in large part because they come from jdbc, guess how many bugs we've have due to java.util.Date being mutable?
18:19	borkdude	technomancy I agree. I didn't work in Java for a long time, but was used to Dates in C#. When I returned to Java, this was the first thing that put me off.
18:19	technomancy	zero means 1900 now, didn't you get the memo? ugh.
18:19	hiredman	(ask about simpledateparser bugs and it is another story)
18:20	amalloy	ugh, dateformat. why would you not make that class thread-safe?
18:20	hiredman	cause you hate freedom
18:22	SurlyFrog	Can you not have a `doseq` in a `finally` block? Something about being able to recur from a catch/finally
18:22	SurlyFrog	'Cannot recur from catch/finally'
18:23	borkdude	thanks for the info and good night
18:23	gfredericks	SurlyFrog: sounds right
18:23	SurlyFrog	that's a bummer...
18:24	Frozenlock	technomancy: ping when you'll come up with your reader implementation, I'd like to not be afraid to use a read function
18:24	technomancy	SurlyFrog: I think you can use dorun+for. bit ugly but it works
18:24	technomancy	Frozenlock: heh, well it sounds like they're spinning off a safe tools.reader contrib
18:24	SurlyFrog	technomancy: thanks, I'll try it.
18:25	hiredman	tools.reader is based on blind, and turning it to a contrib was started some time ago
18:25	hiredman	https://github.com/Bronsa/blind
18:26	technomancy	I was thinking the edn bits might come from clojure, but actually I have no idea
18:27	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/tools.reader/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/reader/edn.clj#L101 :(
18:28	hiredman	lets around top level forms make me sad
18:28	Bronsa	me too. but hardcoding constants that are not self-explanatory makes me more sad than that
18:28	SurlyFrog	technomancy: nope, same compiler issue using `dorun` and `for`
18:29	hiredman	they should be defs obviously
18:30	SurlyFrog	I'm trying to write my own `with-open` that will take a seq of files. So I thought I'd wrap it in a `try/finally` block. Using the finally to run down the seq and call close on each file.
18:30	SurlyFrog	but it doesn't appear possible
18:31	technomancy	mapv maybe?
18:31	SurlyFrog	hmmm…let me look
18:31	Bronsa	hiredman: meh. I kinda prefer it that way honestly.
18:32	technomancy	Bronsa: jump-to-definition doesn't work on locals =\
18:32	technomancy	neither does eval-at-point
18:32	Bronsa	:(
18:32	enquora	http://clojurescriptone.com/getting-started.html purports to provide a guide to getting started with clojurescript but the first lein command, 'lein bootstrap' is unknown/invalid. Is this for real? can anyone explain?
18:32	SurlyFrog	technomany: Thanks! That works!
18:33	technomancy	SurlyFrog: cool
18:33	technomancy	enquora: clojurescriptone isn't actively maintained from what I can tell. they assume you use a very old version of leiningen.
18:33	Bronsa	technomancy: you just reminded me how an emacs noob I am. thanks.
18:33	technomancy	heh
18:33	enquora	thks. not for real, then
18:33	SurlyFrog	So, it looks like this: http://pastebin.com/Z28ktkfz
18:34	SurlyFrog	That's a testing stub, but hopefully the right idea
18:34	hiredman	def is always prefered, "encapsulation" and "information hiding" is how you build non-reusable components
18:34	technomancy	SurlyFrog: maybe a comment saying "I know, I know; mapv isn't right for this, but the compiler disallows doseq"
18:34	SurlyFrog	technomancy: oh yeah, this one is going to have an essay above it :-)
18:34	technomancy	heh
18:35	Bronsa	hiredman: right, but that's only ever used in read-char* and only to avoid hardwriting a constant, but meh. I can change that to a def.
18:36	hiredman	Bronsa: code doesn't exist in vacuum, jsut because you only use magic constants in one place doesn't mean other people won't want access to them
18:37	hiredman	in a, just, etc
18:38	enquora	am looking for examples of a distributed client/server app using both clojurescript and clojure. Clojurescript examples seem thin on the ground in any form - anything out there?
18:40	xeqi	cemerick: did you use any clojure libraries for the stripe integration on clojureatlas?
18:48	Frozenlock	... ok this one surely is obvious... what is the function like `for', but which isn't lazy?
18:48	Frozenlock	I'm always doing (into [] (for... and I'm pretty sure there must be another solution.
18:56	pbostrom	Frozenlock: doseq
18:57	Frozenlock	but doseq returns nil
18:57	jao	doall
18:57	Frozenlock	as in (doall (for... ?
18:57	jao	yes
18:58	Frozenlock	Well... yes I gain 1 character over into []
18:58	Frozenlock	:P
18:58	jao	(defmacro for* [& body] `(doall (for ~@body)))
18:58	jao	:)
19:29	finnj	why does the filter function require key in a map to be integer?
19:30	amalloy	&(get [] :a)
19:30	lazybot	⇒ nil
19:30	amalloy	&([] :a)
19:30	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Key must be integer
19:30	finnj	Yes, thats the one
19:32	cemerick	xeqi: just clj-http; the stripe API is basically too simple to bother writing a Library™
19:33	TimMc	amalloy: I don't understand how you got from the stated problem to the actual problem like that.
19:33	Frozenlock	xeqi: https://github.com/abengoa/clj-stripe
19:33	amalloy	TimMc: practice
19:33	hiredman	it obviously isn't a map, becuase maps don't require integer keys
19:34	amalloy	a thorough memory of the error messages clojure produces, i suppose
19:34	TimMc	I fixated on "filter".
19:35	finnj	hiredman: ok, could you just look at this gist? https://gist.github.com/finnjohnsen/4949716
19:35	finnj	swore I made a map, but I may very well be getting it wrong :)
19:36	hiredman	finnj: I think you should put (prn person) in the body of strong, and the result will surprise you
19:36	hiredman	(until you realize what you are doing)
19:41	finnj	hiredman: ah yes
19:41	finnj	thanks mate
19:42	finnj	map of maps made me confused :D
20:04	xeqi	Frozenlock: thanks, I saw that but it was a bit too wrapped for me, was hoping for something more map based
20:05	xeqi	cemerick: k, was what I was leaning to as well, though I played with the java api a bit
20:07	Raynes	ibdknox: pppppppppiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggg
20:07	ibdknox	Raynes: pong
20:07	Raynes	ibdknox: https://github.com/noir-clojure/noir/commit/570029409f54f4ecc45b8295a6260b4b28d58346 why did you add (remove :_flash) here? yogthos and I are too astupid to figure it out.
20:08	Raynes	We're trying to figure out why wrap-noir-flash has to come before wrap-noir-session in a handler.
20:09	yogthos	yeah kind of stumped on that one :)
20:10	ibdknox	Raynes: yogthos: I think that's an artifact of trying to use ring's flash stuff. I don't think it actually matters in this implementation.
20:10	yogthos	ibdknox: that was my suspicion, I tried it without it and seemed ok, ring uses it to check the :flash from the request part I think
20:11	ibdknox	yeah
20:11	ibdknox	and that was causing issues when I tried using it
20:11	ibdknox	but I just went around it since it didn't have the same semantics as what we were shooting for
20:12	yogthos	yeah that makes sense
20:12	yogthos	so is it something in initializing the ring session wrapper that messes up the noir flash
20:12	yogthos	that's the only thing I can see wrap-noir-session doing that could cause it
20:13	yogthos	they look pretty independent otherwise
20:14	ibdknox	wait, what's the problem you're running into?
20:14	ibdknox	oh I remember now
20:15	ibdknox	so rings flash stuff uses the session with that key, which isn't part of your actual session information so I removed it. The flash stuff reads and writes to the :flash key in the request and then sticks it into the session
20:15	ibdknox	so the session has to be there
20:15	yogthos	ahhh
20:17	yogthos	it's all coming together now :)
20:18	rboyd	is there destructuring syntax to bind to the last n elements of a seq? or should I just reverse
20:19	jeremyheiler	rboyd, No. That wouldn't be good for lazy seqs.
20:20	jeremyheiler	Well, infinite lazy seqs to be more precise.
20:21	rboyd	ah
20:47	Frozenlock	Sweet... wasted 2 hours trying to debug why my computer was behaving strangely when entering http://my-site.com instead of http://www.my-site.com. Turns out I had a configuration for it in my host file.
20:47	Frozenlock	(dec Frozenlock)
20:47	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
20:48	Frozenlock	Oh... lazybot evolved?
20:51	gozaboru	is there an idiomatic way to represent subsequent pairs of a seq? (e.g. [1 2 3 4] to ['(1 2) '(2 3) '(3 4)])
20:51	amalloy	~partition
20:51	clojurebot	partition is probably not what you want; see partition-all.
20:51	amalloy	hmph
20:51	amalloy	(partition 2 1 [1 2 3 4])
20:52	gozaboru	oh cool, I read the step as step after the last value, not the first
20:52	gozaboru	thanks!
21:00	dxeh	what is the closest thing to structs from C in clojure?
21:00	amalloy	maps
21:01	dxeh	amalloy: wat
21:01	dxeh	you know what i mean by struct right? and if so then ok ill go look up maps
21:01	amalloy	of course
21:01	amalloy	hash maps are what we use for structs
21:02	dxeh	amalloy: alright, because im looking to rewrite this in clojure https://github.com/dxeh/svm/blob/master/src/clsfile.h
21:03	dxeh	maps still the best way?
21:04	ieure	dxeh: You might want to use a structmap if you're going to be creating a lot of those: http://clojure.org/data_structures#toc19
21:05	ieure	dxeh: But, yeah, Clojure has a much more dynamic type system, so you basically just use hash-maps for this kind of thing.
21:06	dxeh	alright ieure :P i know many languages but none like clojure so i was like "map...? " lol
21:06	amalloy	structmaps have been dead for longer than michael jackson
21:06	dxeh	mj hasnt been dead THAT long
21:06	dxeh	well
21:06	dxeh	i guess he has
21:06	dxeh	but not in the literal term
21:07	ieure	dxeh: Python and Ruby are similar in terms of data structures.
21:07	TimMc	ieure: Records are the new structmap.
21:08	ieure	TimMc, amalloy, Sure, okay.
21:09	dxeh	ieure: oh, well i actually only know C,java,javascript,C++,C#,groovy and html lol i dont exactly know either of those languages (although i've heard of them obviously and seen snippets)
21:09	TimMc	dxeh: Well, what would you do in JS for a struct?
21:10	amalloy	it turns out i was actually wrong about MJ. struct-maps survived him by almost a year
21:10	TimMc	Let that be a lesson.
21:11	amalloy	i guess "random guessing" isn't always the best approach to historical allusions
21:11	TimMc	(And if you figure out what the lesson is, I'm very curious to know what you come up with.)
21:11	amalloy	see above
21:11	dxeh	TimMc: i would probably just create a new class file
21:11	dxeh	depending on the size of struct/situtation etc
21:12	TimMc	amalloy: I meant the "struct-maps outliving MJ" part. Meh.
21:12	TimMc	dxeh: JS doesn't have classes. You mean a prototype?
21:12	amalloy	oh, i see
21:13	TimMc	dxeh: And that prototype would just be an Object... which is a hash map.
21:13	cemerick	amalloy: "almost a year"? struct-maps are alive and well, no?
21:13	dxeh	well yes Timmc in literal form i meant i would create a new javascript source file and handle it tha way with a prototype
21:13	amalloy	cemerick: they still exist as a deprecated feature, but as far as i know new code is supposed to act like they don't exist
21:13	TimMc	Wait, you'd create a new source file for every struct?
21:14	cemerick	oh, sure
21:14	amalloy	hah
21:14	amalloy	alas no
21:14	dxeh	TimMc: as i said depending on the situtation (and size of the struct)
21:14	cemerick	"Four more years!" :-P
21:14	amalloy	no feature will ever be removed from clojure, except the ones that cause rich a problem someday
21:15	dxeh	anyways where can i learn about records in clojure
21:15	cgag	I pulled some code out of one of my projects into its own project, ran `lein install`, then added the new project as a dependency of the old. When I run my project now I end up hitting runtime errors for missing dependencies, though I have these listed in the new projects project.clj. Am I doing anything obviously wrong (if you can tell from this vague description)?
21:27	TimMc	cgag: The new dependency, is it a SNAPSHOT version?
21:29	dxeh	TimMc: how can i store an array value within a record?
21:29	warz	is there a better way to pluck a key out of each map in a collection than using map? i can just do (map :key [ ... ]) and it seems to do what i want
21:29	warz	but idk if theres a better way
21:31	gfredericks	warz: that's it
21:31	gfredericks	I can't imagine a denser way of communicating that idea
21:32	warz	well me either, but ya never know! :)
21:32	warz	i tried (:key [ ... ])
21:32	TimMc	dxeh: Clojure is dynamically typed, just like JS. You can just do {:foo ["bar" "baz"]}
21:33	gfredericks	warz: good point
21:33	gfredericks	if clojure were ruby I expect that would work
21:33	TimMc	dxeh: That's a map of one key-value pair, where the key is a keyword and the value is a vector (array-like thing).
21:34	warz	i dont really know ruby, i was just going off of my beginner's experience which is that "clojure seems to work as id expect"
21:34	warz	i didnt know if map would work because i didnt know if itd treat :key as a function, or whatever
21:34	warz	but it does
21:34	gfredericks	well that's not a feature of map
21:34	gfredericks	that's a feature of keywords
21:34	gfredericks	,(ifn? :foo)
21:34	clojurebot	true
21:34	warz	ah, i see
21:34	warz	well that explains it
21:35	gfredericks	warz: also note ##(:foo {:bar 12, :foo 16})
21:35	lazybot	⇒ 16
21:35	xeqi	dakrone: is there an example of using try+/catch with clj-http?
21:36	warz	yea thats why i tried (:foo [{ ... }, ... ])
21:36	gfredericks	,(:foo [])
21:36	clojurebot	nil
21:37	warz	i think its just the difference between applying :foo to each item in that collection versus the whole collection
21:37	gfredericks	warz: vectors are quasi-maps (with integer keys), so it's conceivable that somebody might try looking up a keyword in a vector
21:42	tommo	,(re-seq #"(.+)\\1+" "apple")
21:42	clojurebot	nil
21:43	tommo	why doesn't it match "pp"?
21:43	gfredericks	,(re-seq #"(.+)\1+" "apple")
21:43	clojurebot	(["pp" "p"])
21:43	tommo	ahh ok
21:44	tommo	so it was escaping the literal 1?
21:44	tommo	why does that work in other languages then o.O
21:44	andyfingerhut	One gets so accustomed to double-backslashes in strings that it is easy to forget you don't need them in Clojure regexes
21:44	andyfingerhut	Clojure has special parsing for regexes that is different than how it does for strings.
21:44	tommo	fantastic, thanks alot
21:45	dxeh	why would (if (not= (.magic file) -889275714) be true and (if (not= (.magic file) 0xCAFEBABE) be false when -889275714 is equal to 0xCAFEBABE...?
21:46	gfredericks	,0xCAFEBABE
21:46	clojurebot	3405691582
21:46	tommo	3405691582
21:46	gfredericks	,(type 0xCAFEBABE)
21:46	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
21:47	dxeh	ah maybe its because in java its represented by 32 bit int but in clojure is int sized as 16?
21:48	cgag	TimMc, it's not a snapshot version
21:48	warz	i have a hard time figuring out when to insert new lines into my code, lol. my functions end up being all on the same line.
21:48	gfredericks	dxeh: it's a 64-bit long
21:48	TimMc	cgag: (I was thinking you might be getting Maven lookup failures if the dep only existing locally, and it would check for newer snapshots.)
21:48	cgag	if i run a repl for the library i made and call the function it works fine, when I call it from the code that depends on it, i get the dependency errors
21:49	TimMc	gfredericks: I always have to think "byte, short, int, long" to remember the number of bits in a long.
21:49	gfredericks	TimMc: that's weird; int/long have absolute meanings for me. byte and short I'd probably have to think about for a second.
21:49	TimMc	cgag: Are you sure you saved project.clj? :-P
21:50	warz	yea int/long same for me
21:50	TimMc	gfredericks: I just know that those double in size with each step. :-)
21:50	warz	thats why they easy to visualize though
21:50	hyPiRion	I have trouble with nibbles.
21:50	TimMc	Byte (thank god) has absolute meaning these days unless otherwise specified.
21:50	tommo	gotta love dat 4bit nipple
21:51	gfredericks	TimMc: I was wondering why bytes mattered anymore until I remembered that file sizes are based on them
21:51	dxeh	8 16 32 64, byte short int long respectively (and usually)
21:51	hyPiRion	gfredericks: they're based on bits as well. Or longs, for that matter
21:52	hyPiRion	it's just a perspective
21:52	warz	just think in bits
21:53	dxeh	11101001
21:53	warz	and youll have an anjoyable time :p
21:53	dxeh	that twos compliment gets me every time xd
21:53	gfredericks	once you work out your endianness
21:53	hyPiRion	it's not that hard if you convert to hex
21:55	hyPiRion	1110 -> E, 1001 -> 9, E*16+9 = 224 + 9 = 233
21:56	dxeh	whats the BITWISE and operator in clojure
21:56	TimMc	,(use 'clojure.repl)
21:56	clojurebot	nil
21:56	TimMc	,(apropos "bitwise")
21:56	clojurebot	()
21:56	hyPiRion	,(bit-and 1 3)
21:56	clojurebot	1
21:57	TimMc	,(apropos "bit-")
21:57	clojurebot	(bit-or bit-set bit-xor bit-flip bit-and ...)
21:57	dxeh	o cool
21:57	dxeh	thanks
21:59	dxeh	err
21:59	dxeh	shift operators are ? hyPiRion
21:59	dxeh	nvm bit-shift-left i guess
21:59	tommo	bit-shift
22:00	tommo	,(apropos "bit-shift")
22:00	clojurebot	(bit-shift-left bit-shift-right)
22:01	cgag	TimMc, where i put the dependency on my library in project.clj seems to matter, does that make any sense?
22:02	cgag	It's on the classpath either way, but I don't get class not found errors if i put the dep first in the list
22:05	hyPiRion	dxeh: you're sharp
22:07	TimMc	dxeh: And if you're looking for the other bit-shift-right, it's not there.
22:08	TimMc	I opened a ticket for it and attached a patch, but no luck so far.
22:08	dxeh	lol TimMc :(
22:08	dxeh	you mean unsigned right shift
22:08	dxeh	>>>
22:09	tommo_	who even uses dat
22:09	TimMc	dxeh: Yeah.
22:09	dxeh	tommo_: its basically the same as doing >> & 0xFF (or FFFF, or FFFFFFFF etc depending on size of sign extension)
22:10	TimMc	tommo_: shrug It's missing, everybody else supports it, and there's no reason not to have it.
22:10	TimMc	How often do you use any of the bit shift operators?
22:10	dxeh	quite often actually
22:10	tommo_	TimMic: gotta shift dem rgb bits
22:10	tommo_	!
22:11	dxeh	addin dat alpha
22:11	tommo_	packin dem bits
22:11	hyPiRion	Oh right.
22:11	hyPiRion	,0xFFFFFFFF
22:12	clojurebot	4294967295
22:12	hyPiRion	^- Java return -1 there
22:12	hyPiRion	Be aware when you port stuff using e.g. RGBA.
22:12	tommo_	,(Integer/toBinaryString 0xFFFFFFFF)
22:12	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Value out of range for int: 4294967295>
22:16	dxeh	just wrote
22:16	dxeh	the most confusing line of my life
22:16	dxeh	http://pastebin.com/xT312bUW
22:19	cgag	looks like friend is importing an older version of one of the dependencies i use, so mine only worked if i played it before friend in the classpath
22:19	cgag	what would the proper way to have discoverd that have been?
22:19	cemerick	cgag: lein-pedantic
22:19	cgag	i just manually shifted the dep around until i isolated it and looked at friends project.clj
22:19	cgag	i'll check that out, thanks
22:21	amalloy	&(unchecked-int 0xCAFEBABE)
22:21	lazybot	⇒ -889275714
22:31	dxeh	hey amalloy
22:31	dxeh	how would i use an unchecked int to check if .magic == 0xcafebabe
22:33	cgag	that pedantic plugin found like a dozen other potential problems, good stuff
22:34	Frozenlock	Raynes: any plan to make clojurebot post a link to refheap whenever he sees a link to pastebin?
22:36	ChongLi	one thing that's annoying about refheap is that I can't paste with middle-mouse button into it
22:36	ChongLi	pastebin doesn't have that problem
22:37	ChongLi	I guess it's a codemirror problem?
22:37	Frozenlock	ChongLi: one thing I like about refheap is that I don't even need to use the mouse with refheap.el :P
22:37	ChongLi	ah, I wasn't aware of that
22:38	Frozenlock	If you use emacs, you can M-x refheap-paste-region and that's it!
22:45	callenbot	Frozenlock: didn't work last time I tried it.
22:47	Frozenlock	Paste-region?
22:47	callenbot	Frozenlock: da comrade
22:47	Frozenlock	Hmm no, it works :)
22:47	Frozenlock	https://www.refheap.com/paste/11271
22:48	Frozenlock	Emacs, it just works™
22:50	amalloy	Frozenlock: Raynes is never going to change clojurebot. and as for changes to lazybot, i think that would be an unwelcome source of extra noise
22:51	callenbot	speaking of noise, I need to ignore PARTs and JOINs in here
22:51	callenbot	too many pikers.
23:05	dxeh	are there anything like unions from C in clojure?
23:05	dxeh	or is it a type of map once again
23:06	callenbot	dxeh: whoa, you're comparing Clojure directly with C?
23:06	callenbot	dxeh: what book have you used to learn Clojure so far?
23:06	callenbot	I need to have a word with the author.
23:06	dxeh	not directly obviously but im looking to rewrite some of my C code and not sure the best way
23:07	dxeh	and i havent read any books, on anything really (other than a bit on compilers before)
23:07	callenbot	dxeh: are you a student?
23:07	callenbot	dxeh: you need to get a book and read it, performing all the exercises. You are seriously lost.
23:07	dxeh	yeah in highschool, been devving for 6 years
23:07	callenbot	dxeh: it's not the years, it's what you put in them.
23:07	dxeh	im not lost... im trying to find a way to rewrite some code
23:07	tmciver	dxeh: no unions in clojure and be thankful for it.
23:08	callenbot	dxeh: they're not languages used interchangeably, you're doing something very strange and alien and you need a book
23:08	dxeh	you can't be trying to tell me that just because i suck atm at clojure means i suck in every other language
23:08	callenbot	dxeh: get a goddamn book
23:08	tmciver	callenbot: settle down
23:08	callenbot	dxeh: http://www.clojurebook.com/ this is the best one out right now.
23:09	tmciver	callenbot: he's in high school, he knows C, learning clojure and on IRC . . . he's doing great!
23:10	cemerick	sounds like the next Raynes ;-D
23:10	callenbot	tmciver: needs a book. I used to be him, now I am helping him.
23:10	dxeh	not only C ^_^ multiple other languages
23:10	callenbot	cemerick: Raynes is more experienced.
23:10	dxeh	just never learned lisp
23:10	callenbot	cemerick: more meaningfully so.
23:11	callenbot	cemerick: and thanks for writing that book btw. It's still my favorite. I even used it as a reference to refresh myself from time to time.
23:11	cemerick	callenbot: Maybe, who knows. Perhaps dxeh can run circles around all of us.
23:11	cemerick	callenbot: thanks for recommending it, glad you enjoyed it :-)
23:11	tmciver	cemerick: coming to the Boston Clojure Meetup on Thursday?
23:12	cemerick	tmciver: Dunno, didn't realize it was scheduled yet, even.
23:14	tmciver	cemerick: I had to re-check but it is tomorrow night. Doesn't look like there's any info about speakers though.
23:14	cemerick	well, I shan't be there, then
23:15	tmciver	Wait a minute, I think it's cancelled anyway. :(
23:15	cgag	good or not you should get that book
23:15	tommo_	callenbot were you trying to imply that dxeh was lost in the sense that he shouldnt be rewriting C in lisp
23:16	tommo_	and that he should learn to write lisp
23:17	llasram	Not to speak for collenbot, but I do think the question "are there C-style unions in this garbage-collected language?" suggests that one might be wanting some pointers back to civilization
23:18	llasram	callenbot even
23:18	Raynes	dxeh: You trying to step on my turf, boy?
23:18	dxeh	perhaps you are stepping on my turf !@!
23:18	dxeh	lol
23:18	Raynes	I guess since I'm not in high school anymore someone has to take up the reins.
23:18	Raynes	Welcome to Clojureland!
23:18	Raynes	They're very accepting of us youngsters.
23:18	Raynes	You'll be right at home.
23:19	cgag	did you have to restrain yourself from saying raynes there or do i pronounce it wrong in my head
23:19	cemerick	If dxeh is in some remote locale (upstate Idaho?), then it's settled.
23:19	Raynes	callenbot: refheap.el doesn't work for you?
23:19	dxeh	nah near ottawa
23:19	dxeh	lol
23:19	Raynes	ChongLi: Something is wrong with codemirror on refheap?
23:19	ChongLi	Raynes: I can't paste with middle mouse button
23:19	Raynes	People suddenly complained about all my stuff but I missed the context!
23:19	Raynes	ChongLi: Yeah, that's a known problem in firefox, iirc.
23:20	cemerick	dxeh: Depending on who you talk to, that's roughly the same. :-P
23:20	Raynes	Firefox doesn't give you a way to grab the middle mouse click event.
23:20	Raynes	It should work in Chrome, IIRC.
23:20	callenbot	Raynes: it didn't a long time ago.
23:20	dxeh	llasram: and no that was not the case, i was looking for the best alternative to the c style'd union
23:20	dxeh	styled* lol
23:20	ChongLi	Raynes: it works fine on pastebin
23:20	Raynes	callenbot: If you try it again and it still doesn't work, let me know and I'll take a look.
23:20	Raynes	ChongLi: pastebin doesn't use codemirror.
23:20	callenbot	dxeh: get a book
23:20	ChongLi	codemirror must be doing some weird stuff then
23:21	callenbot	dxeh: the whole question is misconcieved. Get a book.
23:21	dxeh	stop telling me to get a book callenbot i wouldnt read it even if i had a book
23:21	callenbot	Raynes: hokay.
23:21	Raynes	Codemirror is not just a textarea. Firefox's textareas handle middleclicks themselves, of course.
23:21	callenbot	dxeh: you want to learn?
23:21	dxeh	because i dont _need_ a book, i never have,
23:21	dxeh	the only time i needed a book was when i was reading up on compilers a while ago
23:21	ChongLi	ahh, hmmm
23:21	callenbot	dxeh: impetuous fool. You're slowing yourself down with that stupidity.
23:21	callenbot	dxeh: you'd learn faster and more completely if you GOT A BOOK
23:22	ChongLi	firefox's gotta get on the ball!
23:22	dxeh	not sure if you are a troll or what but sometimes if you are truely intelligent you dont need a book
23:22	nightfly	dxeh: Someday you'll reach a point where you realize your knowledge is full of tiny little holes
23:22	Raynes	It's weird that they don't let you do anything with that event. IIRC, the codemirror guy had to use a hack to get it in chrome though too.
23:22	dxeh	if you can just pick things up quickly
23:22	callenbot	dxeh: that's a crock of shit.
23:22	callenbot	dxeh: I was you, 10 years ago. Comprende? I'm telling you how you can make better and faster progress than I did if you drop the prideful ignorance and GET A BOOK.
23:22	callenbot	dxeh: I did the same exact shit. I asked the same questions.
23:22	tmciver	callenbot: this is how you help?
23:23	callenbot	I wasted a huge chunk of my life being more ignorant than I needed to be because I thought I knew it all and didn't need a book
23:23	Raynes	Yes, this is how he helps.
23:23	callenbot	tmciver: ask Raynes how it looks when I don't care about helping.
23:23	Raynes	It looks bad, guys.
23:23	Raynes	Real bad.
23:23	dxeh	the question i had was only because i dont know clojure well yet, obviously i am aware there are different ways to do it and i wanted an alternative
23:23	ChongLi	yeah seriously
23:23	ChongLi	read all the books you can get your hands on
23:23	dxeh	such as there are no structs in java but you can easily get the same effect
23:23	callenbot	dxeh: the only answer you need is to get a book.
23:23	ChongLi	I think it's worth reading all of the clojure books
23:23	callenbot	dxeh: the most valuable thing you can do to learn is to get a book.
23:23	antares_	callenbot: calm down
23:24	dxeh	you need to stop being so arrogant because you are getting no where with your petty little trolls
23:24	callenbot	dxeh: your next step should be logging into Amazon, not bickering on IRC.
23:24	Raynes	DRAMA
23:24	cemerick	as the coauthor of the book being recommended, can everyone please stop talking about books?
23:24	ChongLi	you can't force someone to buy a book, though
23:24	Raynes	o/
23:24	Raynes	Go cemerick, it's ya birthday.
23:24	cemerick	\o
23:25	cemerick	dxeh: since I'm mostly a HLL fool, and don't remember what c unions are, could you describe what you're trying to accomplish?
23:25	antares_	happy birthday cemerick :)
23:26	tommo	i heard a reference to Raynes, are you the current young prodigy or something :p?
23:26	callenbot	cemerick: he wants a map.
23:26	callenbot	cemerick: and dynamic typing.
23:26	callenbot	cemerick: incidentally, Clojure has both.
23:26	cemerick	antares_: it's actually not my birthday, I have no idea what Raynes is talking about :-)
23:26	Raynes	lol
23:26	callenbot	cemerick: too bad it's an incredibly malformed question indicative of severe brain damage.
23:26	callenbot	or lack of exposure...to books...
23:26	cemerick	callenbot: oh, honestly, please.
23:26	antares_	cemerick: oh. Happy not-your-birthday then ;)
23:27	tommo	cemerick a union is where multiple elements can share the same memory, e.g. there can only be one variable residing in memory at one time
23:27	dxeh	callenbot i forgot you must be so smart cause you read 9000 books, o wait im 16 and still am intellectually superior to you without reading a single book
23:27	Raynes	tommo: I was pretty popular in 2010-11 because I was in high school and cemerick held a fundraiser to get me to the first Clojure conference. And I lived in a very small town in Alabama… And apparently I have a lot of popular projects.
23:27	dxeh	please explain your logic behind books = better
23:27	dxeh	and yes
23:27	callenbot	dxeh: your ignorant question says all it needs to.
23:27	dxeh	i just called you an idiot
23:27	callenbot	dxeh: I don't want to not be called an idiot, call me what you like.
23:27	callenbot	dxeh: I just want you to get a book.
23:27	callenbot	dxeh: I'll take all the abuse in the world - if you get a book.
23:27	dxeh	and you can want me to get a book, but it's not happening
23:27	Raynes	tommo: I'm still pretty popular. But now it's because I'm so darn awesome.
23:27	Raynes	;)
23:27	cgag	you're better off reading a book that gives you a bigger picture idea than looking to piecemeal translate c code
23:27	tommo	sounds cool raynes, how old are you, and was clojure your first language?
23:28	callenbot	dxeh: well then you're going to have to put up with Diogenes of Sinope.
23:28	Raynes	tommo: I am 19 now. Haskell was my first language.
23:28	callenbot	Raynes: christ you're lucky
23:28	ChongLi	Raynes: oh nice
23:28	ChongLi	Haskell's a great first language
23:28	cemerick	Raynes: look, stop acting like you're so baller with your 'haskell was my first language' bit
23:28	Raynes	Hahaha
23:28	dxeh	and you will have to put up with the insanity of knowing how much time you wasted reading books once i'm superior in clojure as well
23:28	callenbot	took me ages to shake off the C-brain.
23:28	Frozenlock	Guys, stop being so entertaining :)
23:28	Raynes	cemerick: My secret is that nobody ever asks "How good were you with Haskell?" when they ask that question.
23:29	tommo	cool, i'm 17 atm and spent my programming upbringing in java, wish i was lucky enough to start with haskell/clojure lol
23:29	ChongLi	it's a lot easier to learn functional programming when you're not bogged down with an imperative mindset
23:29	callenbot	Raynes: did you get anything to compile?
23:29	Raynes	cemerick: I learned monads a couple of months ago. ;)
23:29	Raynes	callenbot: Sure, I wrote some stuff.
23:29	cemerick	hah, I knew it!
23:29	tmciver	dxeh: callenbot's advice to read books is certainly good even if he's being a jerk about it.
23:29	callenbot	Raynes: good enough.
23:29	cemerick	callenbot: waitaminute, you must be a common lisp fan, right?
23:29	callenbot	tmciver: you say that as if it's somehow the exception to the rule.
23:29	Raynes	tommo: You're fine. Still plenty young enough to shove it in your brain.
23:29	callenbot	cemerick: how'd you know?
23:29	cemerick	damn
23:29	cemerick	~guards
23:29	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
23:29	callenbot	cemerick: no seriously...how'd you know?
23:29	cgag	tommo, you're lucky enough to be getting into it at 17
23:30	callenbot	cemerick: I went from to C to CL, and stayed in CL for a long time until I started using Python professionally.
23:30	tommo	Raynes: hope so:P came to clojure to basically widen my perspective and learn how to now java'ise everything i write lol
23:30	Raynes	I got into Clojure at around 14-15 or something like that.
23:30	tommo	not*
23:31	dxeh	tmciver: it all depends on the person, i've learned everything i know about computers without reading a single book and i currently have a job at a professional android development country and will be having my code presented at droidcon 2013 in spain, im 16
23:31	Raynes	I was almost one of the "I remember when the IRC channel had 6 people in it" people.
23:31	Raynes	But not quite.
23:31	callenbot	Raynes: I can say that I remember when rhickey would help people unfuck their classpath.
23:31	callenbot	Raynes: but not that small, no.
23:31	cemerick	callenbot: there's a certain Je ne sais quoi about interactions with CL-ers and former CL-ers online. ;-)
23:31	dxeh	so, all this book talk is really not helping me
23:31	Raynes	callenbot: Heh, I remember that too.
23:31	callenbot	cemerick: they were my tribe. >:)
23:31	dxeh	i just wanted to know the answer to a simple question
23:31	Raynes	I was probably one of those people.
23:32	callenbot	Raynes: I was too, I'd avoided the JVM as much as possible until Clojure.
23:32	Raynes	dxeh: What was the question, again? I don't think I saw it.
23:32	cemerick	dxeh: my Q probably got lost in the noise, but: what are you trying to do, specifically?
23:32	cemerick	callenbot: My condolences. :-)
23:32	dxeh	best alternative to C unions, in clojure, what would it be
23:32	cemerick	dxeh: assume I know nothing of c unions
23:32	cemerick	y'know, just for ha-has
23:32	callenbot	cemerick: they were good years man. Good years. I was more productive than most people I knew despite the janky stack.
23:33	callenbot	"just for ha-has" <--- I lol'd
23:33	cemerick	I also don't write bytes with a needle and a steady hand, so...
23:33	callenbot	cemerick: magnetic needle.
23:33	cemerick	callenbot: see, pedantry like that is a classic CL-er tell
23:33	antares_	dxeh: probably a map (dictionary-like data structure). Getting all the memory layout efficiency aspects of C unions in a GC-ed language is not possible.
23:33	callenbot	cemerick: good ole (LOOP-MAGNETIC-NEEDLE ...)
23:34	cemerick	oh christ, ALL CAPS
23:34	callenbot	it's CL.
23:34	callenbot	of course it's all-caps.
23:34	cemerick	callenbot: bah, I found the way to make lispworks case-sensitive, so there :-P
23:34	Frozenlock	iirc CL could work in lowercaps.
23:34	cemerick	stupid read-table bollocks
23:34	callenbot	CL is a powerful language, so powerful, you can stop the heart of a programmer just by showing him a stacktrace.
23:34	llasram	dxeh: What are you doing with our current use of unions in C, vs e.g. just using a struct with the same members?
23:35	callenbot	Frozenlock: it was case-insensitive but the default canonical names were all-caps.
23:35	llasram	s,our,your,
23:35	cemerick	antares_: wait, we're talking about bit-packing or something similar?
23:35	dxeh	err antares_ basically the way i was using the union was a tagged union inside of a struct which would represent a type of constant pool entry, in java this can easily be represented by class abstraction/inheritance, in clojure, im not so sure
23:36	antares_	cemerick: in C there's a way to have "polymorphic" data structures that are compiled efficiently
23:37	antares_	dxeh: see http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/polymorphism.html :)
23:37	llasram	cemerick: Yeah, basically you can access the same hunk of memory as different types
23:37	callenbot	guys don't start him down protocols and multimethods already
23:37	ChongLi	yeah if you love sum types and want functional programming with them try ML or Haskell
23:38	Frozenlock	"This website was developed by the Clojure Documentation Team." Wow, sounds like a group of superheroes.
23:38	llasram	dxeh: Although antares_'s link has merit, potentially more relevant -- a map is a map, no matter what keys it has.
23:38	cemerick	tommo: so you're a young'un as well?
23:39	tommo	cemerick: yeah i am, 17 :p
23:39	dxeh	we've got some prodigies up in this irccccccccc
23:39	tmciver	get off my lawn!
23:39	cemerick	excellent, new blood
23:39	antares_	Frozenlock: just mere mortals who are fed up with clojure.org's documentation and contribution process
23:39	tommo	trying to wipe this java slate clean and start fresh
23:39	cgag	what site is that? is that on clojure-docs?
23:39	Frozenlock	antares_: At this point I was sure that #clojure was the official documentation.
23:40	antares_	cgag: no, clojure-docs.org is API reference, http://clojure-doc.org is for guides
23:40	dxeh	anyways antares_ thanks for the link looks like it might be what i need
23:40	antares_	Frozenlock: clojure-doc.org is not official
23:40	technomancy	Frozenlock: #clojure is way better than the official documentation =)
23:40	antares_	Frozenlock: so you are basically correct :)
23:41	antares_	dxeh: you are welcome. Sorry about the book thing earlier, people here are usually pretty nice
23:41	cgag	ah, i'll have to check that out, it looks good from a glance
23:41	cemerick	Frozenlock: were you the one that came up with 'don't get #=ed'?
23:41	cgag	particularly having a good ecosystem section
23:41	antares_	cgag: if something does not, you can contribute to it on github ;)
23:41	antares_	cgag: are you relatively new to clojure?
23:41	Frozenlock	cemerick: yeah. Pretty proud of it :p
23:42	cemerick	well done :-)
23:42	cgag	not really, but the ecosystem stuff was the biggest hurdle for me when i started
23:42	dxeh	no problem antares_ some people just arent open minded enough to see that some learn differently than others
23:42	antares_	cgag: ok. I hope you are aware of http://clojurewerkz.org and http://www.clojuresphere.com
23:43	ChongLi	dxeh: if you really must have union types you can do that in typed clojure
23:43	cgag	clojurewerkz yeah, don't think i've seen clojuresphere
23:43	dxeh	ChongLi: its not a must have lol
23:44	dxeh	i was using the unions in C as a way to somewhat represent class polymorphism
23:44	ChongLi	ah ok
23:44	amalloy	haha, don't get #='ed? how do you pronounce that?
23:44	ChongLi	I thought you needed the type safety for something
23:44	amalloy	hasheq'ed?
23:44	ChongLi	sharp-equals
23:44	dxeh	nah for example ChongLi, in an expression tree, you have a left node and a right node
23:45	antares_	dxeh: then maybe Scala or Haskell is what you want ;)
23:45	dxeh	now these nodes can have multiple different properties
23:45	dxeh	i was using a union to represent the different types of nodes in the syntax tree
23:45	ChongLi	sure
23:47	ChongLi	and a tree is effectively the product of the left and right node types, right?
23:47	ChongLi	Haskell allows you to express these things explicitly
23:48	dxeh	ChongLi: https://github.com/dxeh/sslick/blob/master/src/compiler.c https://github.com/dxeh/sslick/blob/master/src/syntaxtree.h
23:48	ChongLi	whereas in Clojure it's basically anything goes
23:49	dxeh	thats like a half done expression tree thats in an unstable state but you can get the idea of what im doing there
23:51	ChongLi	in haskell you might do something like this:
23:51	ChongLi	data Tree a = Leaf a \| Branch (Tree a) (Tree a)
23:52	Rich_Morin	http://blip.tv/clojure/clojure-sequences-740581 (Clojure sequences) seems to be broken - how should I report this?
23:53	ChongLi	Rich_Morin: all the blip stuff is gone
23:53	antares_	Rich_Morin: blip.tv pulled the plug on Clojure videos. See http://www.youtube.com/ClojureTV.
23:54	Rich_Morin	Actually, quite a few videos are working just fine on blip