#clojure – 2013-02-11

2013-02-11

00:03	tomoj	wow
00:03	tomoj	I assumed you had some crazy error while committing, your test is nuts
00:05	noncom	no, still, i don't get it.
00:05	noncom	)
00:06	ivan	is this one of those bugs where you write over the file before reading the entire file?
00:07	noncom	what i don't get in particular - is how it is first said that refs track a single location (contrasting them with vars) and then it is said that refs track multiple locations and agents - don't
00:07	technomancy	a ref tracks a location
00:08	technomancy	multiple refs track multiple locations at the same time
00:08	technomancy	multiple agents track multiple locations independently
00:08	technomancy	"coordinated, synchronous change" <- what dosync is
00:09	clj_newb_234	anyone here also use scala? I'm trying to see if there is a way to take advantage of (1) clojure's persistent data structures + (2) clojure's macros, and yet (3) scala's type system
00:10	noncom	i use scala
00:10	technomancy	clj_newb_234: using clojure macros from scala doesn't make sense
00:10	technomancy	data structures would though: https://github.com/codahale/yoink
00:11	noncom	what kind of profit are you expecting from using them this way?
00:12	noncom	i think that scala is still too restrictive with it's syntax and some simple things require a lot of boilerplate. i think that's where clojure can be well used to reduce the amount of code.
00:13	noncom	technomancy - the statements about multiple refs and multiple agents do not seem mutually exclusive. i still can't see the difference.
00:14	noncom	i'm sorry)
00:14	technomancy	noncom: the difference is dosync works on refs only
00:14	noncom	oh!
00:15	noncom	now i see)
00:15	noncom	agent's can't be synchronized with dosync and act independently in time..
00:15	technomancy	right-o
00:16	noncom	thank you! i think that the official docs need to be more explicit on this..
00:17	technomancy	the official docs could use a lot of things; more clarity not being on the list
02:24	nonuby	is this idiomatic, is there a simpler way https://www.refheap.com/paste/11165
02:37	cmdrdats	nonuby: you could: (reduce min (flatten (map :rates sample_data)))
02:39	metellus	~flatten
02:39	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
02:40	cmdrdats	ye, i was about to say - you could probably use apply concat
02:40	metellus	or mapcat
02:41	cmdrdats	(reduce min (mapcat :rates sample_data))
02:41	cmdrdats	nice - I didn't know about mapcat :) that's very handy
02:41	josteink	completely offtopic: is it just me going crazy or has chrome lately started NOT autocompleting adresses in the "awesome bar"?
02:42	metellus	cmdrdats: I only know about it from people doing ~flatten in here
02:42	metellus	josteink: not for me.. did you clear your history recently?
02:42	josteink	metellus: what I mean is I may start typing "cale"
02:42	cmdrdats	metellus: a useful learning experience - now I know too :D
02:43	josteink	metellus: but instead of completing, in the bar, to calendar.google.com, it's just one of 200 items in a list which I need to select
02:43	clojurebot	list* doesn't actually make a `list?`
02:43	josteink	metellus: it USED to complete in the bar, so I just needed to type "cale<enter>"
02:44	metellus	no idea, sorry
02:47	josteink	hm
03:12	nonuby	cmdrdatas, wouldnt (apply min (mapcat :rates sample_data)) be better? reduce will call min n times?
03:43	WokenFury	does clojure have a wrapper around java's ReentrantLock? I need a lock where one thread will do work and other threads can check the lock status and cancel their work instead of blocking/retrying
07:48	pjstadig	WokenFury: no wrapper, but you should be able to use ReentrantLock in that way
07:48	WokenFury	pjstadig: yep, implemented already. works well
07:49	pjstadig	hehe
07:49	pjstadig	yeah sorry, i guess you asked like 4hr ago :)
07:51	WokenFury	:)
09:38	jsabeaudry	Somehow my uberjar does not work this morning, even old versions in git, all of a sudden it cannot find my main class
09:41	jsabeaudry	im very scared about the implications of this
09:53	Blazeix	hi, i need to run a function on certain values in a map. i have this implementation: https://www.refheap.com/paste/11168
09:53	Blazeix	i'm pretty new to clojure, is that a idiomatic way to do it?
09:54	Blazeix	the idea is you'd call it like (map-selected-values mymap #(Integer/parseInt %) :key1 :key2)
09:58	Bronsa	Blazeix: (defn map-selected-vals [m f & ks] (into {} (for [k ks] (update-in m [k] f))))
09:58	hyPiRion	Bronsa: what
09:58	Bronsa	mhm, no wait
09:59	Bronsa	(defn map-selected-vals [m f & ks] (into {} (reduce #(update-in %1 [%2] f) m ks)))
09:59	Bronsa	this
09:59	ljos	(reduce #(update-in m [%] f) ks)
09:59	hyPiRion	You don't need the {}
09:59	ljos	no need for {}
10:00	ljos	oh.. a small mistake (reduce #(update-in %1 [%2]) m ks)
10:01	Blazeix	oh, cool. let me digest that a little bit
10:02	aroemers	Forgot the function f: (reduce #(update-in %1 [%2] f) m ks)
10:02	Blazeix	right
10:02	ljos	oh yeah. that last one is correct.
10:02	ljos	always something.
10:02	aroemers	heh
10:17	Blazeix	ok, i understand it now, thanks everyone
10:17	Blazeix	a common thread in my clojure learning is that i need to better grok reduce
10:22	pbuckley	,(clojure.string/replace (str "{\"top-key\":{\"first-key\":\"" "first-val" "\",\"second-key\":\"" "second-val" "\"}}") #"\\" "")
10:22	clojurebot	"{\"top-key\":{\"first-key\":\"first-val\",\"second-key\":\"second-val\"}}"
10:22	pbuckley	,(clojure.string/replace (str "{\"top-key\":{\"first-key\":\"" "first-val" "\",\"second-key\":\"" "second-val" "\"}}") "\\" "")
10:22	clojurebot	"{\"top-key\":{\"first-key\":\"first-val\",\"second-key\":\"second-val\"}}"
10:23	pbuckley	anyone know how to replace a backslash in a string using clojure?
10:23	pbuckley	or, alternately, use double quotes in a string without backslash-escaping them?
10:24	joegallo	i think you're being confused by the printed behavior
10:25	joegallo	,"\""
10:25	clojurebot	"\""
10:25	pbuckley	ah, so when I print it out, it escapes it
10:25	joegallo	(.indexOf "\"" \\)
10:25	joegallo	,(.indexOf "\"" \\)
10:25	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: indexOf for class java.lang.String>
10:25	joegallo	,(.indexOf "\"" (str \\))
10:25	clojurebot	-1
10:25	pbuckley	but it isn't really escaped when I use it unprinted
10:25	joegallo	there isn't a backslash in the string "\"" there's a single character, a double-quot.
10:25	joegallo	double-quote.
10:26	pbuckley	ok cool, thanks joegallo
10:26	alexnixon	can anyone confirm exactly why the implementation of 'drop' ( https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L2568-L2578 ) pulls out the "step" function into a let binding? I suspect it's to avoid unnecessarily nesting a bunch of lazy-seq calls, but I'm unsure if there are locals-clearing/head retention issues being worked around too.
10:28	DerGuteMoritz	alexnixon: to avoid retention of the head I think, yep
10:31	DerGuteMoritz	though I think this could be achieved with (loop ...) as well
10:35	DerGuteMoritz	ah no, forget that last statement :-)
10:36	DerGuteMoritz	or actually
10:37	clgv	alexnixon: to have it private, I think. there is no other effect there
10:38	alexnixon	clgv: I mean why is the step function pulled out at all. You could write 'drop' with it in-line.
10:38	clgv	alexnixon: the author may have thought that it's better readable
10:38	DerGuteMoritz	you need a recursion target
10:38	DerGuteMoritz	a tail recursion target
10:39	alexnixon	DerGuteMoritz: a fn definition is a recur target
10:39	DerGuteMoritz	and yeah ((fn [n coll] ...)) would also work but is not as nice
10:39	gfrederi1ks	but you can't do it from within a lazy-seq
10:39	DerGuteMoritz	yep I mean that's the reason for having the fn at all
10:39	DerGuteMoritz	but loop would work, too here... and then you could even do it inline
10:40	gfredericks	drop is defined before loop apparently, but that's not too meaningful
10:41	DerGuteMoritz	hmm looking at take-last below it looks like it retains the head of coll
10:41	pbuckley	joegallo it seems that printing behavior also pollutes when I try to exec the string
10:42	DerGuteMoritz	at least while the loop is executing
10:43	joegallo	how are you trying to exec the string? maybe you should be pr-str'ing it before hand or something like that.
10:44	pbuckley	I'm trying to exec like this: (. (Runtime/getRuntime) exec curl-command)
10:45	joegallo	right... but where did curl-command come from?
10:46	alexnixon	DerGuteMoritz: I don't think the head is being retained there as 's' will be cleared on each recur
10:46	pbuckley	(str "curl -H 'Accept: application/vnd.example.v1' -H 'Content-type: application/json' -X POST -d '" "{\"top-key\":{\"first-key\":\"" "first-val" "\",\"second-key\":\"" "second-val" "\"}}" "' " my-url)
10:47	pbuckley	so you're saying it should be a pr-str instead of str?
10:47	joegallo	not necessarily
10:48	pbuckley	exec doesn't seem to like pr-str
10:48	pbuckley	I was trying to just quickly test something calling out to the system command using curl, but it looks like it's just too tricky with the backslashes involved
10:49	pbuckley	I can use clj-http, which I probably should have done in the first place
10:50	bordatoue	Hello, is there a cons equivalent in clojure similar to lisp
10:51	joegallo	pbuckley: (slurp (.getInputStream (. (Runtime/getRuntime) exec "echo \"foo\""))) works fine for me.
10:54	sh10151	https://github.com/Chouser/clojure-jna is very old, is there some better way to do simple JNA calls in Clojure?
10:55	pbuckley	joegallo: well, by some definitions of "works" - your backslash is still in the command that is exec'd
10:56	joegallo	no, no it isn't.
10:56	pbuckley	since I'm trying to pass json parameters to a rails app, it chokes on the backslashes and doesn't recognize the json as json
10:56	pbuckley	when I run the same command from the shell without backslashes, it is fine
10:57	joegallo	you are in java string
10:57	joegallo	strings
10:57	dakrone	pbuckley: you'll have much more luck doing it with clj-http rather than shelling out to curl
10:57	joegallo	if i want to run `echo "foo"` at the command line, i need to represent that in a java string as "echo \"foo\""
10:57	pbuckley	yeah, shelling out to curl is a dead end I've been chasing down for too long
10:58	pbuckley	joegallo: you may be correct, but I'm not seeing it, and I don't think it's worth the time trying to figure out
10:58	pbuckley	lesson learned, don't try using backslashes in strings and clojure
10:58	joegallo	OMG
10:59	llasram	...
10:59	danielglauser	bordatoue: There are two, cons and conj. http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/conj http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/cons
10:59	DerGuteMoritz	alexnixon: s will, but coll won't
10:59	DerGuteMoritz	alexnixon: only an issue if you pass in a seq already, of course
11:00	alexnixon	DerGuteMoritz: so is this naive implementation bad?: https://www.refheap.com/paste/11171
11:01	clgv	alexnixon: it is slow
11:02	clgv	alexnixon: and allocates more lazy-seq objects
11:02	alexnixon	clgv: I understand the allocation issue - is that the only downside?
11:03	clgv	alexnixon: well, what is its advantage?
11:05	alexnixon	clgv: I'm not contesting the current implementation, just trying to to understand why it is so. If there are reasons beyond extra allocations then that's interesting.
11:06	clgv	alexnixon: well, it is faster just to discard the top n elements and then return the rest
11:06	DerGuteMoritz	it's not fully lazy in fact then
11:06	alexnixon	clgv: yep, makes sense.
11:07	DerGuteMoritz	but due to chunking you can't rely on full laziness anyway
11:07	clgv	DerGuteMoritz: it is fully lazy^^
11:07	alexnixon	DerGuteMoritz: it is lazy - 'step' isn't called unless you realize the first item in the returned seq
11:07	clgv	oh right, not when chunking ;)
11:08	DerGuteMoritz	alexnixon: yeah but then it realizes the dropping in full
11:09	DerGuteMoritz	ah wait :-)
11:09	pbuckley	dakrone: thanks, clj-http works great
11:09	DerGuteMoritz	yeah alright, you can't drop more lazily, of course
11:09	alexnixon	:-)
11:11	clgv	;)
11:11	bordatoue	danielglauser: I am looking for a lisp equivalent of cons such that cons of two number would give me a pair both the cons you have mentioned requires some col
11:12	DerGuteMoritz	bordatoue: Clojure doesn't have pairs
11:13	DerGuteMoritz	bordatoue: you can use (vector 1 2) or [1 2] instead
11:13	bordatoue	DerGuteMoritz: does it have somethign i can invoke car and cdr
11:13	DerGuteMoritz	bordatoue: no, it doesn't have car and cdr either
11:13	danielglauser	bordatoue: Ah. Thinking back to my Scheme days (15+ yrs ago) I believe cons would give you a pair. Folks typically just use a vector in Clojure.
11:14	danielglauser	,(first [1 2])
11:14	clojurebot	1
11:14	bordatoue	thanks DerGuteMoritz & danielglauser
11:14	DerGuteMoritz	yw
11:15	danielglauser	,(rest [1 2])
11:15	clojurebot	(2)
11:15	Bronsa	;(second [1 2])
11:15	Bronsa	,(second [1 2])
11:15	clojurebot	2
11:16	llasram	&(fnext [1 2]) ;; for completeness
11:16	lazybot	⇒ 2
11:16	frozenlock	One can add metadata in an atom--> (atom a 10 :meta {:some-key some-value}), but how can you change it with reset! ?
11:18	llasram	frozenlock: I don't believe you can
11:18	frozenlock	Oh...
11:19	frozenlock	My first reflex in this case would be to use `def' inside a function instead of an atom, but I'm pretty sure the clojure's gnome will burn me for this. Suggestions?
11:19	frozenlock	s/gnome/gnomes
11:19	Bronsa	,(alter-meta! (atom 10 :meta {:foo 1}) update-in [:foo] inc)
11:19	clojurebot	{:foo 2}
11:20	frozenlock	Bronsa: And this solves everything. Thank you :)
11:21	llasram	Cool. I didn't realize metadata on reference types other than vars worked that way. Makes sense though
11:21	llasram	(inc Bronsa)
11:21	lazybot	⇒ 3
11:22	llasram	frozenlock: OOC, what are you doing with updating metadata on an atom?
11:23	frozenlock	llasram: I have a java objects that needs to be recreated once in a while. I store the configs in the meta data in order to be able to retrieve them and recreate it with the same configs. Although now that I think about it, I could simply use a second atom.
11:25	frozenlock	I don't know why I keep doing crazy stuff when the solution is so simple.
11:33	sh10151	anyone use lein-daemon? I'm getting null pointer exceptions from it, and I can't tell why -- I'm sure it's something silly
11:34	sh10151	at leiningen.daemon_starter$daemon_starter.doInvoke(daemon_starter.clj:13)
11:34	sh10151	looking at the code i think it's something in my :daemon param in project.clj? can't really tell...
11:39	sh10151	arohner: oh hi, I was just thinking about you.
11:39	bordatoue	is there any way to identify a function
11:39	sh10151	arohner: I think I must be doing something silly with lein-daemon
11:39	bordatoue	is there a function type
11:40	sh10151	arohner: Most basic setup I can think of has a null pointer exception sometime after "waiting for pid file to appear" -- at leiningen.daemon_starter$daemon_starter.doInvoke(daemon_starter.clj:13)
11:41	jkkramer	bordatoue: ##(fn? map)
11:41	lazybot	⇒ true
11:41	bordatoue	okay, how do i identify a function and a macro programically
11:42	bordatoue	##(fn? (defmacro something [] nil))
11:42	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
11:43	rplaca	bordatoue: look at the metadata on the function and you'll see {:macro true}, iirc
11:44	jkkramer	,(:macro (meta #'for))
11:44	clojurebot	true
11:44	bordatoue	what is the point of having fn? if i accidently pass in a macro
11:44	rplaca	bordatoue: a macro is a function
11:44	rplaca	that takes code in and produces different code out
11:45	jkkramer	and you can't normally pass around macros
11:45	jkkramer	,(fn? for)
11:45	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/for, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
11:45	bordatoue	rplaca: but fn? doesn't report it as a fn
11:45	gfredericks	,(fn? @#'for)
11:45	clojurebot	true
11:46	bordatoue	okay, my error
11:46	calis	What Emacs setup are clojure hipsters using nowadays? Starter kit, prelude, Emacs Live... ?
11:47	bordatoue	gfredericks: why do we need sharp quote for macros not functions when passing to fn?
11:48	gfredericks	bordatoue: @#' is a hack for getting the function underlying a macro
11:48	gfredericks	not normally useful
11:49	llasram	&`@#'for
11:49	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/deref (var clojure.core/for))
11:49	gfredericks	,(reduce @#'or [false true false])
11:49	clojurebot	nil
11:49	edmund_	woah... wash your mouth out dude.
11:49	llasram	^^ Er, if that helps
11:49	llasram	heh
11:50	HolyJak	calis: A question I'd also like answered. I guess every true Emacs geek uses his/her own setup. I, as a newbie, use Prelude and am planning on trying https://github.com/overtone/emacs-live once I get Emacs 24.3
11:51	HolyJak	One Emacs & Clojure hipster's setup is here: https://github.com/bodil/emacs.d
11:51	HolyJak	I guess you could also find Rich Hickey's emacs setup somewhere
11:52	edmund_	HolyJak: i'm a huge emacs live fan
11:53	technomancy	calis: I recommend starting your own and stealing liberally from the popular setups
11:53	technomancy	if you add things one-by-one you'll have a better understanding of where various pieces come from
11:53	llasram	(inc technomancy)
11:54	lazybot	⇒ 46
11:54	technomancy	80-90% of the good stuff is available in independent packages anyway
11:54	pimeys	I'm still having this test of replacing vim with emacs+evil here at work
11:55	pimeys	but somehow it still doesn't work like I want it to work
11:55	pimeys	and some modes somehow dismiss the evil mode completely :P
11:55	technomancy	the thing about something as invasive as evil is that it doesn't compose well
11:55	pimeys	yep
11:56	pimeys	the thing would be to learn to use emacs without evil
11:56	pimeys	and then I start to wonder what's the profit
11:56	pimeys	I really like emacs, how it uses elisp for plugins etc.
11:56	TimMc	&(@#'for nil nil `[a (range)] `[a (inc a)])
11:56	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/let [iter__4468__auto__ (clojure.core/fn iter__15780 [s__15781] (clojure.core/lazy-seq (clojure.core/loop [s__15781 s__15781] (clojure.core/when-let [s__15781 (clojure.core/seq s__15781)] (if (clojure.core/chunked-seq? s__15781) (clojure.core/let ... https://www.refheap.com/paste/11174
11:56	pimeys	but the editor itself doesn't work for me, I need the command mode to be fast
11:57	technomancy	well I haven't used vim, but from what I've heard most of the benefits of text objects you get for free in lisps with paredit anway
11:57	pimeys	if I started learning an editor now, it would be emacs
11:57	pimeys	but 15 years of vim history is not something you can change
11:58	llasram	Induced amnesia
11:58	pimeys	and there's still lots of things I love in vim, although for clojure emacs seems to be better
11:58	pimeys	for slime etc.
11:59	pimeys	and with ruby, vim just rocks
11:59	hashbang1	pimeys: you can bring some of that functionality into vim with tpope's foreplay, and are a number of slime-ish plugins for vim with screen or tmux
11:59	pimeys	I've tested those, the problem is vim itself
12:00	pimeys	maybe just using an external REPL
12:00	arkx	Evil worked well for me. evil-paredit makes it work better with paredit as well, so you can gradually move to that.
12:00	arkx	nrepl.el rather than slime for me, though.
12:01	pimeys	and for every plugin I install I need to figure out the good command mode configuration
12:01	pimeys	by default they have bindings with C or M
12:01	pimeys	arkx: btw, long time no see :)
12:01	arkx	We talked here just last week :P
12:01	arkx	Same topic even.
12:02	pimeys	but in real life I haven't seen you since TKK
12:02	pimeys	freshman year
12:02	arkx	But yeah, glad to see you've found Clojure as well
12:02	pimeys	still in reaktor?
12:02	arkx	Yup.
12:02	arkx	Coding Clojure at work currently. :)
12:02	pimeys	nice
12:03	pimeys	it's very easy language actually, after Ruby
12:03	pimeys	but still using Ruby for work
12:03	pimeys	maybe I'll start doing evaluators with clojure and do real work with other languages :D
12:03	iwo	hey, does anyone know why, often when i use nrepl, i get suddenly kicked into nrepl-error buffer and i can't focus any other window?
12:03	iwo	i'm using emacs live
12:04	iwo	it seems like sudden nrepl gets into an error state and i can't continue because the nrepl-error window is forever stealing focus
12:04	iwo	even though nrepl-error is blank, and i haven't even executed anything
12:04	mathmonkey	Hi
12:04	technomancy	iwo: does emacs-live bring in nrepl-autocomplete?
12:04	iwo	i start typing into the nrepl prompt and suddenly it breaks
12:05	technomancy	I've heard of that package causing problems like that
12:05	iwo	technomancy: i'm pretty sure it does, yes
12:05	hashbang1	pimeys: i'm in a similar boat so i'm interested in potentially making the leap to emacs. I have a lot of time invested in vim, and evil-mode has been disappointing. I'm thinking I might just want to start from scratch and learn the default emacs keybindings instead.
12:05	technomancy	iwo: thanks for bringing up a great example of why it's better to add in packages by yourself so you can have a better understanding of how to debug them when problems arise. =)
12:06	iwo	also, has anyone else experienced strange formatting in nrepl in emacs? like you execute a function and see loads of whitespace, as if many newline chars have been printed?
12:06	pimeys	hashbang1: I'm just afraid of doing that, I've gained so much speed with command mode, and I don't know is the tradeoff to emacs worth it
12:06	arkx	I'm curious as to why evil-mode seems disappointing to others making the transition to emacs.
12:06	iwo	technomancy: :P
12:06	pimeys	arkx: maybe with configuration you can make it work like vim
12:06	arkx	What doesn't work? I was really impressed by how well it matched real vim, compared to say IntelliJ IDEA or Eclipse plugins.
12:07	pimeys	but, the biggest thing is that it's only the default vim stuff that is there
12:07	arkx	Those are always terrible.
12:07	pimeys	for new plugins, you have to write the workflow yourself
12:07	pimeys	the bindings etc
12:07	gfredericks	arkx: I have a friend who switched with evil and still uses it
12:07	pimeys	I'm missing stuff like ysiw" :)
12:07	hiredman	.win 5
12:08	iwo	i seem to have the same problem as this guy http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2013-01-19.html#10:15a
12:08	arkx	Of course the plugin ecosystem is different between vim and emacs, but I found the core vim text editing functionality well implemented
12:08	pimeys	the thing is, that I need more than the core
12:08	floatboth	hi everyone
12:08	pimeys	so, it's better to learn emacs than use a vim layer on top of it
12:08	arkx	pimeys: do you use paredit?
12:09	pimeys	of course
12:09	floatboth	I have a weird problem
12:09	HolyJak	iwo, technomancy: regarding nrepl-autocomplete. that is why I wait for Emacs 24.3, I believe I have read somewhere that prior to that there might be some issues with te completion
12:09	hashbang1	pimeys: i'm thinking so. Otherwise I'm just going to keep wanting to shoehorn my vim experience into other editors, which will just lead to frustration.
12:10	floatboth	https://github.com/myfreeweb/swaggerator/blob/master/src/swaggerator/validator.clj – this works when not AOT-compiled
12:10	floatboth	when it is, this is the stack trace:http://mfwb.us/9obI
12:10	pimeys	one thing that annoys me also is that when doing :some_command, ESC doesn't cancel it
12:11	pimeys	it does nothing
12:11	pimeys	small stuff, maybe that's fixable with configuration
12:11	pimeys	is it the C-g?
12:11	arkx	I moved quite naturally to using both vim and emacs keybindings where they didn't conflict
12:11	hashbang1	pimeys: ugh yeah i was doing that too, i think its c-g
12:14	floatboth	google finds nothing for exceptions listed in http://mfwb.us/9obI
12:17	arkx	https://github.com/timcharper/evil-surround
12:18	arkx	But yeah, some friction is to be expected, obviously. I'm happy I kept going, it doesn't need to be either-or when it comes to editors. :P (Heresy I know.)
12:21	TimMc	floatboth: I don't see any obvious problems. Try doing a binary search -- remove half the code and see if the exception persists.
12:26	floatboth	oh wait, no, the problem is not in this namespace, it's in https://github.com/myfreeweb/swaggerator/blob/master/src/swaggerator/core.clj – using the controller macro from an AOT compiled namespace throws this exception
12:32	floatboth	https://github.com/myfreeweb/swaggerator/blob/master/src/swaggerator/core.clj#L48 – something's wrong in this macro, but it only blows up after AOT compilation
12:34	llasram	floatboth: Superficial question -- why does the macro need to call `eval` vs just return a form to be evaluated?
12:37	floatboth	I don't know how else can I do this
12:38	floatboth	I want to evaluate the body in a binding with some transients and call persistent! to get the results for metadata
12:40	floatboth	If I just put everything inside a backquote and don't eval, it still doesn't work from AOT-compiled namespaces AND it doesn't pass the tests
12:41	llasram	floatboth: I was going to ask about that too... There's no way for the dynamic variables to end up taking on anything other than their initial empty values... Unless you're altering the current binding for the earmuffed vars in the code you eval?
12:42	floatboth	the code I eval alters them and I call persistent! on them and I assign them to the result of the evaluation
12:42	llasram	~transients
12:42	clojurebot	transients are not mutable data structures: http://technomancy.us/132 or at least as far as you're concerned.
12:42	floatboth	everything works unless I use it from an AOT-compiled namespace
12:43	llasram	I think everything appears to work
12:43	llasram	And something about AOT-compilation is surfacing that some bits are broken
12:44	llasram	When you eval in macro-expansion, you are inserting the literal generated value for the next round of evaluation as if it had been produced by the reader
12:44	llasram	Sometimes that's what you want, but usually not
12:45	TimMc	Oof, that-ll do it.
12:45	TimMc	*that'll
12:46	hiredman	that code is almost definitely not using transients correctly
12:47	hiredman	https://github.com/myfreeweb/swaggerator/blob/master/src/swaggerator/core.clj#L39 definitely not
12:47	hiredman	I would run, not walk, away from swaggerator
12:48	llasram	Calm down, hiredman. Bugs exist to be fixed :-)
12:48	floatboth	how do I use them correctly?
12:49	llasram	floatboth: Just like Clojure persistent structures. The only difference is that there's no guarantees about the old versions remaining unmodified
12:49	SegFaultAX	Really? "swaggerator"?
12:49	hiredman	llasram: bugs are one thing, not knowing how to use language features is another
12:51	TimMc	llasram: I think there's an implied "in its current state" -- which I would agree with.
12:51	hiredman	floatboth: http://clojure.org/transients
12:52	floatboth	ahh, "not designed to be bashed in-place"
12:52	ivan	someone oughta write a kibit rule for that
12:52	floatboth	should I use atoms?
12:53	TimMc	ivan: Detect transient ops in non-terminal position of do blocks?
12:54	ivan	TimMc: I suppose that would catch most of them
12:54	llasram	floatboth: If you can't achieve what you're trying to achieve by producing functional values, then that's usually approach
12:54	TimMc	You'd have to look for implicit do-blocks, e.g. doto, fn body, let body, when body...
12:54	llasram	s,approach,the approach,
12:56	floatboth	using atoms doesn't fix the problem
12:56	floatboth	what the hell does "No matching ctor found for class clojure.lang.AFunction$1" mean anyway
12:58	joegallo	there's no such constructor for the first (or maybe it's second) anonymous class defined inside .../clojure/lang/AFunction.java
12:59	bbloom	floatboth: you're trying to instantiate a non-class object
12:59	bbloom	er no rather i mean:
12:59	bbloom	floatboth: you're passing the wrong arguments
13:00	floatboth	I mean I'm not calling any constructors… explicitly, at least
13:00	llasram	I'm about ~90% certain that you get there error when you try to re-eval an anonymous function which is a closure
13:00	bbloom	floatboth: provide more context, ie what code is failing
13:01	floatboth	more context: https://github.com/myfreeweb/swaggerator/blob/master/src/swaggerator/core.clj#L48
13:02	rmrfchik	hi. where I can in clojure sources a code which match java overloaded methods?
13:05	rmrfchik	ah, Reflector.java
13:06	llasram	floatboth: I know it's invasive, but I'm pretty certain your problems here trace to your use of `eval` w/in macros
13:08	llasram	Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the static initializer generated for AOTed namespaces is built from the post-macro-expansion code
13:09	llasram	If your macros are returning things other than forms to be re-consumed by the compiler, then all sorts of craziness breaks loose
13:11	floatboth	yeah, I'm sure it's this too
13:11	floatboth	but I don't know how to do this without eval
13:11	dabd	I am trying to get nrepl to work on Emacs for Win. When I run M-x nrepl-jack-in from a source file it opens an empty nrepl buffer but there is no listener. Any help please?
13:12	TimMc	floatboth: What's the goal?
13:13	floatboth	to evaluate code inside a binding (to an atom), return the result of evaluation (which changes the atom) with the value of the atom as metadata
13:13	Raynes	$latest lein-ring
13:14	lazybot	[lein-ring "0.8.2"] -- https://clojars.org/lein-ring
13:14	gtrak	floatboth: really you should fix that use of transients, just because it's totally wrong. Who's to say some other weirdness isn't contributing to the problem?
13:14	floatboth	gtrak: I have changed it to atoms, just not pushed to github. doesn't fix the problem though
13:15	floatboth	there's no exception if I just use one backquote and no eval, but it doesn't do the right thing then
13:15	gtrak	why are you interning?
13:16	floatboth	gtrak: where?
13:16	gtrak	66
13:16	gtrak	(intern ns n ...
13:16	gtrak	that looks weird to me
13:17	floatboth	that's not related to the problem
13:17	gtrak	why not just say `(def ~n (controller ~url ~desc ~@body) ?
13:17	floatboth	just a weird habit, why not indeed
13:18	gtrak	it's also semantically different
13:19	gtrak	I only use macros like that when they return a value, I would shy away from anything that does side effects at compile-time?
13:20	TimMc	floatboth: You have a habit of using intern and eval in macros? D-:
13:20	gtrak	b/c I'm just not sure what that means at run-time
13:20	floatboth	TimMc: yes :D
13:20	bbloom	gtrak: anything that defs is a side effect at compile time
13:20	gfredericks	are there any examples of legitimate side-effecting macros?
13:20	gtrak	bbloom: there's a difference between expanding to a def and doing a def
13:21	gfredericks	ignoring trivial side-effects like gensym
13:21	dabd	is there a way to do conditional compilation. I have a var that is a path that depends on the platform if on Win it has some value if on Linux it has another one. Any way to do this?
13:21	bbloom	gtrak: gfredericks: defmethod doesn't expand to a def
13:21	gfredericks	gtrak: they're both at compile time
13:21	bbloom	$source defmethod
13:21	lazybot	defmethod is http://is.gd/SK2aTC
13:22	gfredericks	defmethod doesn't side-effect
13:22	gtrak	gfredericks: gen-class?
13:22	TimMc	bbloom: It still doesn't appear to be a side-effecting macro.
13:22	bbloom	gfredericks: oh, you mean the macro side effects, not the result of it? i see
13:22	bbloom	i misunderstood
13:22	gfredericks	bbloom: yeah
13:22	gfredericks	gtrak: that does seem to be the case, yes; cool, thanks
13:23	TimMc	gen-class isn't actually a var, is it?
13:23	gfredericks	I'm wondering about the absoluteness of claiming "Macros should always be pure functions"
13:23	TimMc	Oh weird, it's declared but I don't see a definition.
13:23	gfredericks	,#'gen-class
13:23	bbloom	gfredericks: in theory there could be memoization & other internal side effects
13:23	bbloom	gfredericks: dynamic code loading, etc
13:24	gfredericks	"Macros should usually always be pure functions"
13:24	TimMc	gfredericks: There's also referential transparency to consider.
13:24	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/gen-class
13:24	gfredericks	,#'unquote
13:24	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/unquote
13:24	gfredericks	,unquote
13:24	clojurebot	#<Unbound Unbound: #'clojure.core/unquote>
13:25	llasram	gen-class is very weird in how it does it's work during macro-expansion. I'm not clear on why it does that though -- I use a wrapped version which works just fine acting at code-execution-time
13:25	TimMc	(defmacro maybe [expr] (when (odd? (System/currentTimeMillis)) expr))
13:26	TimMc	Or it could go out and check a server to see if the client has paid up.
13:26	gfredericks	most of my macros go out and check a server to see if the client has paid up.
13:26	gfredericks	(defmacro had-the-client-paid-up-at-compile-time? ...)
13:27	cemerick	lynaghk: every day that passes, I want elision of nested expressions in cljx more...
13:28	cemerick	are you as opposed as you were last fall? (https://github.com/lynaghk/cljx/issues/5 FWIW)
13:29	TimMc	floatboth: Get your code working without any transients, eval, or side-effecting macros. If your code is still not working when AOT'd, bring it 'round again.
13:29	floatboth	almost got it
13:34	pbuckley	if I want to map a function that takes two arguments to a collection, should I use walk to make every item in the collection have the two arguments?
13:35	pbuckley	the first argument is constant, it isn't changing
13:35	pbuckley	it just seems I'm not doing this right because of how convoluted I seem to be getting
13:35	progo	how about partial
13:35	alexnixon	pbuckley: (map (partial f 42) coll), where '42' is your constant
13:36	pbuckley	thanks progo and alexnixon, I think that's what I was looking for
13:36	progo	you should have known lambdas as the other way to solve the situation, but partial is the clearest one
13:51	banjo	Does anyone know if the major clojure conferences (e.g., Clojure/West) are effective places for a startup to find and hire good clojure people?
13:51	banjo	Or is job searching/recruitment strongly de-emphasized?
13:52	technomancy	banjo: I wouldn't say it's discouraged. it used to be easier a couple years ago when there were fewer jobs; these days a bigger portion of attendees are already working in clojure.
13:52	gtrak	banjo: folks have booths and sponsor things like drinkups
13:53	ro_st	technomancy: job well done on 2.0.0 :-)
13:53	technomancy	ro_st: thanks! happy to have it out.
13:54	marcellusthecat	anyone have any experience and/or example projects using sandbar? seems like a pretty cool lib with solid documentation that hasn't really got much attention?
13:54	banjo	technomancy: I see, at this point are there many more companies recruiting than there are engineers job searching?
13:54	ro_st	marcellusthecat: all the cool kids use lib-noir nowadays
13:54	TimMc	technomancy: I suspect there's a feedback effect; employees are more likely to get a travel/fee reimbursement if their job involves Clojure...
13:55	marcellusthecat	ro_st: That's what i use now but it doesn't have any higher level form managment stuff, trying to figure out if it's worth exploring more
13:55	danielglauser	banjo: Depends on what you are looking for and how much location matters but there are quite a few Clojure user groups with people looking for Clojure gigs. Hint, I run one http://www.meetup.com/denofclojure/
13:56	danielglauser	banjo: I know a couple of folks up in Boulder who are actively looking for work
13:56	technomancy	banjo: just my suspicion, but I think TimMc is right that the conference is likely to draw attendees whose work will cover the expenses.
13:56	headshot	danielglauser: you in colo?
13:56	danielglauser	headshot: Yessir
13:56	headshot	i'm in foco
13:57	gfredericks	focorado?
13:57	marcellusthecat	i've been regurgitating the same form validation stuff from that noir-messageboard project, keep feeling like it's time for something new
13:57	danielglauser	headshot: foco?
13:57	headshot	fort collins
13:57	headshot	fort chronic
13:57	gfredericks	Fort, Co.
13:57	danielglauser	headshot: Nice!
13:58	TimMc	banjo: Have you looked at Functional Jobs? I don't know what their fees are like, but it's a known place for job-seekers to look.
14:00	banjo	danielglauser: Makes sense, and thanks for the group. If your friends are looking and you wouldn't mind referring them feel free to pm me.
14:00	danielglauser	headshot: a long way to travel but we do get folks from the Springs too. Come on down sometime.
14:00	amalloy	i was hoping foco was like "faux colorado", slang for some nearby state that wishes it could be colorado
14:00	headshot	heh
14:00	banjo	TimMc: I haven't, thanks for the reference.
14:01	danielglauser	banjo: If you don't mind send me some info via the meetup and I'll announce the position. I don't think it will get very far without even a brief description.
14:01	headshot	danielglauser: what's the meetup url?
14:01	headshot	that posted earlier?
14:01	danielglauser	headshot: http://www.meetup.com/denofclojure/
14:02	banjo	danielglauser: Thanks, will do.
14:03	llasram	That was exciting. Setting RET to paredit-newline in paredit's keymap stops RET from triggering evalulation in nrepl.el
14:03	llasram	I of course thought the particular command I was running was just mysteriously hanging everything
14:04	llasram	s,command,form,
14:04	llasram	Cool story, me
14:06	arrdem	/wc[A/join #yacc
14:09	headshot	danielglauser: thanks
14:10	amalloy	llasram: i think folks who use paredit in the repl bind S-RET or C-RET to send the current input
14:11	dabd	I am getting a blank nrepl buffer with no listener. But if I run lein repl on the command line it works fine. Any tips?
14:12	dabd	Emacs shows nothing useful on the Messages buffer
14:16	lynaghk	cemerick: I'm not super-opposed to the nested cljx expression rewrites
14:16	lynaghk	cemerick: it's not something I really want to get in the habit of, but I haven't been doing a ton of cross-platform code lately so I can't really speak for the needs of that (very tiny) community.
14:17	lynaghk	cemerick: before we go about implementing it in cljx, though, I'd rather see if we can merge with the lein-dalap guys
14:18	lynaghk	cemerick: since I do still firmly believe that having several community projects on this very tiny problem domain is goofy.
14:18	cemerick	lynaghk: well, I've turned it on in a org.clojars.cemerick fork, if only to see if chaos ensues
14:18	cemerick	If only to eliminate the :require-macros crazy, I'll be happy
14:19	cemerick	though protocol/type impls are brutal at the moment
14:19	cemerick	lynaghk: the dalap stuff is very different; strictly clj -> cljs, not clj <- cljx -> cljs
14:20	lynaghk	cemerick: in theory shouldn't the cljs compiler itself be able to figure out the require-macros nonsense?
14:20	lynaghk	cemerick: yeah, sure. Still, I'd rather talk with them and see if their needs can be addressed by a modification of cljx and convince them to shut down their project
14:21	cemerick	lynaghk: yeah, almost surely; speculatively require, look up the var, invoke as macro if it's there and marked as such
14:21	lynaghk	cemerick: it seems like their main issue is that they want easier REPL editing and nicer transform rules
14:22	cemerick	That sort of magic seems to be frowned upon in general, witness having to require namespaces and then import types defined therein
14:22	cemerick	lynaghk: I agree on both points; the former I get around via a cljx nrepl middlware
14:22	cemerick	middleware*
14:23	lynaghk	cemerick: true. The require-macros doesn't bother me a ton, though it is annoying to have a separate my-project.macros clojure namespace for my ClojureScript projects.
14:23	lynaghk	cemerick: you and your fancy "nrepl" =P
14:23	cemerick	core.logic as the front-end is not super-fun, in the end
14:24	cemerick	cool, but way more brain work than I'd like in that spot
14:24	lynaghk	cemerick: yeah, I hear you on that---I wouldn't be surprised if I have spent more time fighting/contributing to core.logic in my grammar of graphics project than I've spent with graphics stuff
14:24	cemerick	lynaghk: the require-macros stuff gets really gnarly if the macros are emitting calls to regular fns that really really should just be in a regular ns
14:24	cemerick	not project.fns-separated-for-no-good-reason
14:25	lynaghk	cemerick: the simplest extension mechanism would be just a user-supplied transformation function that gets any annotated forms?
14:25	dnolen	lynaghk: hehe :)
14:26	lynaghk	dnolen: spent about two hours last night with the new constraint stuff--basically everything gets much more verbose when I try to replace the sketch/hacky partial-maps stuff with proper explicit constraints
14:26	cemerick	lynaghk: approximately; the closer it is to something familiar (macroexpansion), the better
14:26	dnolen	I'd rather just see people fight for feature expressions than continuing to pursue this stuff
14:26	lynaghk	dnolen: I may just end up doing a lot of form-walking of the rewrite rules and then generating constraint maps from that.
14:26	lynaghk	dnolen: yes!
14:27	lynaghk	dnolen: re: feature expressions, we would still need to figure out all of these issues. We're just doing it now via lein plugins on github, which is a lot more efficient than JIRA.
14:28	rplaca	~.
14:28	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
14:28	dnolen	lynaghk: right, I wasn't sure unifier was something you would actually use as interface, rather it gives you hook for defining something higher level.
14:28	bbloom	dnolen: I've moved into my new place in NYC. we should get together sometime soon to hack on clojurescript
14:28	dnolen	bbloom: yes!
14:28	lynaghk	dnolen: yep. I'll keep you posted
14:28	lynaghk	bbloom: noooo, now who will I visit to hack cljs when I'm in Seattle?
14:29	bbloom	lynaghk: i'm sure somebody in the clj user group up there does some cljs, ask technomancy who he might know
14:30	bbloom	dnolen: i'll email you
14:30	technomancy	lynaghk, bbloom: hm, I don't know anyone from Seajure who's using cljs
14:31	technomancy	oh cbilson showed a little mobile dev demo using cljs and one of those JS cross-platform app thingies once
14:31	technomancy	not sure if he uses it much or if that was just messing around
14:32	lynaghk	technomancy: oh, I'd be up to chat about that since that's what I've been up to lately
14:34	bbloom	lynaghk: honestly, i hacked up a browser-like environment with Apache Batik's SVG DOM so that I could have faster iteration on clj rather than cljs
14:34	bbloom	lynaghk: i'm mostly concerned with getting the data representations & algorithms right for what i'm working on
14:34	bbloom	then i'll port to cljs
14:38	bbloom	i'm a few weeks behind on progress though... this move sucked away a ton of time....
14:40	llasram	amalloy: Oh yeah, I figured it out, and C-RET works. I just spent a while not knowing what was happening
15:01	cemerick	lynaghk: not sure if you meant it or not, but cljx 0.2.1 hasn't been deployed to clojars
15:06	SurlyFrog	I'd like to split a file into several smaller ones. I can do a `(with-open [rdr ….] (let [seq (line-seq rdr)] …) but I'm trying to figure out how to take n lines at a time, write them to a new file, while maintaining the list of newly created files so I can return it from my function. Any suggestions?
15:07	TimMc	SurlyFrog: You can use a local atom.
15:08	TimMc	(let [ret (atom [])] (with-open ...) @ret)
15:08	SurlyFrog	TimMc: yeah, I thought about that. Is that the only way given Clojure's laziness?
15:08	lynaghk	cemerick: I did not; must've slipped through the cracks when I was traveling. It's deployed now.
15:09	TimMc	SurlyFrog: It's not so much about laziness as about management of state and mutation.
15:09	TimMc	This function would be entirely eager, yes?
15:09	lynaghk	bbloom: I've looked at batik, but use too much CSS for it to be worthwhile---maybe when I have time I'll throw all of the appropriate phantomjs bits into a JAR.
15:10	bbloom	lynaghk: the style engine works
15:10	SurlyFrog	TimMc: yes, I need it to process the file, so I have to force evaluation of the lazy-seq returned by `line-seq`
15:10	timcharper	In leinengen 1.x, I remember dependencies being stored local to the project (./lib/*.jar). With leinengen 2.x, they are stored in ~/.m2 . I have a case where uberjar is not working, and an internal maven repository is not easily available to my Amazon EC2 compute cluster. I'd like to run `lein deps` and have it install it local to the project, so I can rsync up my code and all dependencies. Does anyone know if there is an
15:10	timcharper	plugin to do so ?
15:11	bbloom	lynaghk: it was just a bitch to figure out how to activate it
15:11	lynaghk	bbloom: ohhh, interesting. I'll have to look into it
15:11	TimMc	timcharper: In lein 1.x they were already in m2, just copied from there to ./lib/
15:11	bbloom	lynaghk: just skip the docs and go to the source
15:11	lynaghk	bbloom: also benchmark phantomjs vs. batik for that use case.
15:12	TimMc	timcharper: I'd try really hard to solve the uberjar issue, if possible.
15:12	timcharper	TimMc: okay. Is there an option in lein 2.x to copy from m2 to lib and have it work such that when I invoke the code in the compute cluster it won't attempt to download them?
15:12	bbloom	lynaghk: well phantom is headless & i needed an interactive display. batik has an event model too
15:13	timcharper	TimMc: That's my hunch, but trying to crunch for a deadline tomorrow, so the optimization problem is pushing for immediate results over sustainability right now. :(
15:13	bbloom	lynaghk: haven't really perf tested at all yet, but it's been fast enough for my needs (for now)
15:13	timcharper	TimMc: My hunch being that I should try really hard and fix the uberjar issue :)
15:14	SurlyFrog	Does a `with-open` return anything? If I have a `let` form inside it, will it return the value of my let?
15:15	technomancy	timcharper: you can set :local-repo to a relative path to have it download everything it needs into the project dir
15:15	technomancy	but fixing the uberjar is a better idea
15:15	amalloy	SurlyFrog: Try It And See
15:16	lynaghk	bbloom: it has an event model too, damn. I guess it basically comes down to the featureset and how much of a pain it is to get phantomjs working and deployed around.
15:16	lynaghk	bbloom: thanks for the infos.
15:16	TimMc	SurlyFrog: According to the source, yes.
15:16	timcharper	technomancy: Thanks! :local-repo sounds like the hack I seek. I'll give uberjar a bit more effort before succumbing.
15:16	lynaghk	bbloom: any of your batik-from-Clojure usage open source?
15:16	SurlyFrog	thanks
15:16	TimMc	timcharper: If it's really a crunch, make sure to give yourself time to get local-repo working, just in case...
15:17	TimMc	timcharper: Is it an AOT issue?
15:17	timcharper	it's most likely a "I'm a retard" issue.
15:17	TimMc	That's software for ya.
15:17	sh10151	Is it legit to use Clojure agents to make a simple work queue, even though I don't really care about sharing state among the threads?
15:17	bbloom	lynaghk: not yet, but i just pasted the most important file to here: https://www.refheap.com/paste/11180
15:17	timcharper	TimMc: lol
15:19	llasram	sh10151: Depends on the problem you want to solve. The stuff in java.util.concurrent is pretty awesome, so you could just actually use a *BlockingQueue and be done with it
15:20	timcharper	TimMc: I'm specified my :main namespace such that `lein run` will invoke the desired -main function. That works. When I run `lein uber jar`, and then invoke the produced standalone jar with java -jar project-0.x-standalone.jar, I am presented with the following error: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: concentro/sim/cor
15:20	sh10151	llasram: That's my initial impression -- I've done a lot of Java. I just don't want to do something that Clojure experts will look at me funny for.
15:20	technomancy	timcharper: are you AOTing the gen-class namespace?
15:21	technomancy	it used to be magically implied with :main, but that was removed
15:21	lynaghk	bbloom: awesome, thanks. I might rip some of this into the c2po clojure demo (in my copious-amounts-of-spare-time =P)
15:21	timcharper	TimMc: Opening the jar reveals that the namespace concentro/sim/core has been compiled and included
15:21	sh10151	llasram: problem is very standard "listen to a message queue, dispatch workers to process requests but also keep listening for more messages"
15:21	bbloom	lynaghk: feel free
15:21	bbloom	i've also got a half dozen branches lying around with other things related to this, so let me know if you run into problems
15:22	technomancy	timcharper: so java claims the .class file doesn't exist, but opening the jar claims otherwise?
15:22	llasram	sh10151: BlockingQueue sounds perfect then to me. Heck, clojure.core uses it
15:23	timcharper	technomancy: right, that seems to be the case. I open it and this file is present: concentro/sim/core$_main.class (btw, my error, when pasting, was truncated and was missing the trailing e.)
15:23	timcharper	java -jar concentro-0.2.0-standalone.jar
15:23	timcharper	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: concentro/sim/core
15:24	technomancy	what about just concentro/sim/core.class?
15:24	timcharper	technomancy: I'm not sure as to whether or not we are AOTing the gen-class namespace, and shamefully, less sure as to what that means.
15:24	technomancy	ok, you should have :aot [concentro.sim.core] in project.clj
15:28	hiredman	technomancy: itym #{concentro.sim.core}, obviously it should be a set
15:29	technomancy	heh; sure
15:31	timcharper	technomancy, TimMc : not in there either. I just asked to my colleague, the author of said project I'm trying to deploy to the cloud, and he said he understands why uberjar isn't working, and that it will be some work to get it working. So I'm going to wave a white flag on uberjar and pursue the hopefully quicker :local-repo option :) Thank you so much for both of your help!
15:33	timcharper	(he was previously not available, otherwise I would have asked him first :) )
15:34	TimMc	timcharper: Is it an AOT issue? I wrote lein-otf to deal with this kind of thing.
15:34	TimMc	(You can have an executable jar that compiles on the fly instead of ahead of time.
15:34	TimMc	)(
15:34	TimMc	grah)
15:39	timcharper	TimMc: turning on AOT didn't seem to help. My collegue doesn't seem to think that's the problem. :gen-class was not in my target namespace's declaration.
15:39	timcharper	TimMc: Trying to turn that on now
15:40	timcharper	and that appeared to be it. lein uberjar is working now!
15:40	TimMc	\o/
15:41	TimMc	Yep, it's a bit of unavoidable redundancy right now.
15:41	TimMc	I wonder if kibit could catch some of these scenarios.
15:50	ivan	does anyone use http://gittup.org/tup/ for building Java things?
15:51	mattmoss	I've used it a little for C++, not java.
15:54	ivan	I need some thing for building Java things that is not Maven, or if not that, some way to build all those Maven plugins everyone uses from source
15:55	p_l	Gradle seems pretty nice
15:55	llasram	ivan: lein is working for us
15:57	thorwil	does some-> have some problem with anonymous fns?
15:58	TimMc	thorwil: Yes, stitching macros and reader sugar often don't play well together.
15:58	TimMc	&(macroexpand-1 '(-> 5 #(do)))
15:58	lazybot	⇒ (fn* 5 [] (do))
15:59	TimMc	&(macroexpand-1 '(-> 5 (#(do))))
15:59	lazybot	⇒ ((fn* [] (do)) 5)
15:59	thorwil	&(some-> 1 identity)
15:59	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: some-> in this context
15:59	TimMc	Well, #(do) is a silly example, but you get the idea.
16:02	brehaut	ha, pythons 'input' function does read eval. how odd
16:02	thorwil	and poof goes my ticket to a concise solution. ty
16:05	thorwil	actually no, all it takes is an extra () around the (fn)
16:05	TimMc	Yep.
16:10	TimMc	&(->> 5 #'+)
16:10	lazybot	⇒ #'clojure.core/+
16:10	TimMc	&(->> 5 (#'+))
16:10	lazybot	⇒ 5
16:11	SurlyFrog	Would somebody like to take a quick look at a small piece of code and critique it?
16:12	gfredericks	clojurebot: list?
16:12	clojurebot	list* doesn't actually make a `list?`
16:12	gfredericks	^ the '' points to a footnote: not actually a list
16:12	TimMc	haha
16:13	seangrove	In emacs, if I have an nrepl session running but I've killed the buffer with the repl input, how can I get it back?
16:13	TimMc	"Some restrictions may apply. Not valid in all VMs. Void where prohibited."
16:13	seangrove	I've just been restarting the whole process so far
16:13	SurlyFrog	It's here if anyone has a moment. http://pastebin.com/KwX6Vyhz The goal is to take a large file, and break it into several new temporary files which can be processed further.
16:16	TimMc	SurlyFrog: I might've used vec + dorun + map myself.
16:16	SurlyFrog	TimMc: how so? `dorun` instead of `reduce`?
16:17	TimMc	(vec (dorun (map #(seq-out % dir) (partition-all count seq))))
16:18	amalloy	TimMc: (vec (dorun ...))?????
16:18	TimMc	erk
16:18	TimMc	doall
16:18	arkx	Why not (mapv ...)?
16:18	TimMc	&(doc mapv)
16:18	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/mapv ([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & colls]) Returns a vector consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each co... https://www.refheap.com/paste/11183
16:18	amalloy	TimMc: just throw away the doall part: (vec ...) is equivalent but faster
16:18	TimMc	amalloy: Oooh, good point.
16:18	SurlyFrog	I get confused by `doall`, `doseq`, etc.
16:18	TimMc	amalloy is my kibit
16:19	TimMc	I highly recommend it.
16:19	SurlyFrog	So simply calling `vec` on the lazy sequence created by map will force realization of it?
16:20	amalloy	i don't see where you're suggesting he use vec anyway though, TimMc. in split-file?
16:20	TimMc	amalloy: The last line, yes.
16:21	amalloy	yeah. i guess that line is just (mapv #(seq-out % dir) (partition-all count seq))
16:24	SurlyFrog	amalloy: that works and is a bit easier to read. Thanks, to you and TimMC
16:24	SurlyFrog	for taking the time to look at it
16:51	cemerick	lynaghk: not sure if you've been following the topic, but this works (gnarly, but produces cljx output with forms on the "correct" lines): https://github.com/cemerick/cljx/commit/079f1c890be1857dc68d4183249dd342712c4ef2
16:52	cemerick	er, https://github.com/cemerick/cljx/commit/c331257 I mean
16:53	lynaghk	cemerick: have you needed to debug the cljx output very often?
16:53	lynaghk	cemerick: if you think that's useful feel free to push it upstream.
16:54	cemerick	lynaghk: sure; stack traces, certainly. Source maps soon, hopefully.
16:54	frozenlock	Is there any advantages in using cljx instead of lein-cljsbuild crossovers?
16:54	cemerick	I mean, both point to the line number in the .clj/.cljs file fine, but reading the output there is horrid.
16:55	lynaghk	frozenlock: cljx does rewrites to certain protocol names automatically, which is nice
16:56	lynaghk	cemerick: good point re: stacktraces. go for it, and thanks.
16:56	cemerick	frozenlock: and you can write rules to e.g. transform Clojure-style catch/throw forms to something reasonable in ClojureScript
16:56	cemerick	etc etc
16:57	cemerick	lynaghk: ok; I'll just need to twiddle the commit order to cherry-pick that bit, and fill in the same treatment for sets, vectors, etc.
16:57	frozenlock	Oh interesting. I'll keep that in mind if I ever need to write clojure code that interops with js/jvm.
17:00	lynaghk	frozenlock: The motivating use case for me was C2, which has a lot of mathy transformation type stuff that wanted to be on both platforms
17:05	gfredericks	is c3p0 (the connection pooling lib used by korma) reputable?
17:08	technomancy	gfredericks: gave me nothing but trouble
17:08	gfredericks	technomancy: dangit.
17:24	tolsen	Hello. I am having trouble doing some println debugging. I can't seem to get the following to print before the exception is thrown: (map (fn [x] (println "HELLO") (throw (RuntimeException.))) (range 1 10))
17:27	dnolen_	tolsen: you need wrap in doall, map is lazy
17:28	tolsen	weird. that feels almost out-of-order lazy as my println comes before the throw in the fn
17:32	morphling	tolsen\|away: seems unlikely. You could try to flush the output stream?
17:33	morphling	tolsen\|away: also, if that helps, println apparently calls prn, which observes flush-on-newline
17:36	tgoossens	Hi. I just started planning on organising a clojure meetup in belgium. Any advice?
17:40	frozenlock	tgoossens: Yes, do it in Canada =D
17:40	tgoossens	haha
17:55	ppppaul	frozenlock, already exists
17:55	ppppaul	in toronto, at least
18:06	frozenlock	ppppaul: Any recordings?
20:30	frozenlock	cricket
20:33	Hodapp	wombat
20:39	rbarraud	echidna
20:40	mattmoss	o_O
20:41	Raynes	hedgehog
20:42	metellus	none of those animals would wear earmuffs.
20:42	Raynes	I bet Sonic would if it were really cold.
20:44	ivan	-XX:+PrintCompilation
20:45	mattmoss	(binding [hedgehog 'sonic] (do ...)) ?
20:45	ivan	heard in #jruby the -XX:+TieredCompilation -XX:TieredStopAtLevel=1 settings took another second off the time
21:58	technomancy	lein uses tieredcompilation
21:58	technomancy	I haven't looked into the other one though
22:00	technomancy	holy smokes; 0.7s shaved off
22:04	ivan	hotspot/src/share/vm/runtime/advancedThresholdPolicy.hpp also suggests some alternate tweaks
22:04	ivan	I wonder if TieredStopAtLevel can be raised after it starts
22:13	matthavener	ivan: crazy, just googled what you were talking about
22:14	matthavener	ivan: jruby guys searching for fastest: https://gist.github.com/teohm/4343392
22:14	ivan	nuts
22:14	ivan	-noverify is indeed a big help
22:16	ivan	what's -X-C?
22:19	ivan	oh, the -X options there are not passed to java
22:22	technomancy	noverify is redundant if you use bootclasspath iirc
22:22	ivan	right, assuming you put everything into bootclasspath
22:22	technomancy	though you might be able to use noverify for the project-level JVM
22:24	technomancy	hm; doesn't seem to have an effect
22:30	warz	is clutch the suggested couchdb client lib? it looks good, just a few months without any commits, so figure id ask
22:33	ivan	user> (.getDiagnosticOptions (sun.management.HotSpotDiagnostic.))
22:33	ivan	UnsatisfiedLinkError sun.management.Flag.initialize()V sun.management.Flag.initialize (Flag.java:-2)
22:33	ivan	I was hoping to use that to change TieredStopAtLevel
22:41	djwonk	Hello, does someone remember the business-focused report that recommends adopting Clojure?
22:42	ivan	ThoughtWorks Tech Radar
22:42	djwonk	I can't remember if it was O'Reilly Radar or Garner...
22:42	djwonk	ivan: thanks! Thoughtworks
22:42	djwonk	Garner -> Gartner
22:44	SurlyFrog	Is there a Clojure equivalent to Common Lisp's `with-standard-io-syntax`? I want to dump Clojure data into files and read it back, but using clojure.java.io/reader seems to interpret each line as a string.
22:44	epitron	Jennifer Gartner
22:44	ivan	heh
22:45	yogthos	SurlyFrog: something like this ? http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/read
22:46	SurlyFrog	yogthos: basically, but I need to be able to move through the file line-by-line.
22:47	yogthos	SurlyFrog: read reads by form since a form could span multiple lines
22:48	SurlyFrog	yogthos: yeah, just saw that…..hmmm, maybe that has to be the way....
22:49	SurlyFrog	Actually, is there a way to read through two files, line by line? I can do it with a `map` over two line-seqs, but that only works if the two files have the same number of lines. What I need is some sort of loop/recur/cond form.....
22:51	yogthos	SurlyFrog: so what are you trying to do with the contents?
22:51	SurlyFrog	merge them into a single, sorted file.
22:52	yogthos	you could read both then concat and sort
22:52	yogthos	you could also use reduce
22:52	tomoj	(fn [& seqs] (->> seqs (map #(concat % (repeat nil))) (apply map vector) (take-while #(not-every? nil? %)))) ?
22:52	SurlyFrog	They could be really big, so I don't want to read them all into memory.
22:52	yogthos	(reduce (fn [[f1 f2]] ...) [f1 f2])
22:53	yogthos	you could iterate as well
22:53	SurlyFrog	I haven't looked at iterate, let me check that out...
22:53	cemerick	is anyone else seeing a suspicious 60s delay in the jvm exiting after running `lein cljsbuild once`?
22:54	yogthos	so you'd iterate over the accumulator and the function called at each step could be reading the files
22:55	SurlyFrog	It says the function passed to iterate must be free of side effects. I'd be reading a value from both files, then writing them into a third, sorted file.
22:57	yogthos	if you're just reading and writing without doing anything in memory loop might actually be the way to go
22:58	tomoj	SurlyFrog: to be clear that fn was for you
22:58	SurlyFrog	tomoj: oh, I didn't know that.
22:58	tomoj	&((fn [& seqs] (->> seqs (map #(concat % (repeat nil))) (apply map vector) (take-while #(not-every? nil? %)))) [1 2 3] [4 5] [6])
22:58	lazybot	⇒ ([1 4 6] [2 5 nil] [3 nil nil])
22:59	tomoj	that's one way to get map but running out at the longest instead of the shortest
23:00	tomoj	or is that not the problem with using map for that
23:00	yogthos	tomoj: sounds like the data might be to big to keep in memory as well
23:01	tomoj	no problem then, map is lazy
23:03	yogthos	good point, if it got consumed as it maps should be fine
23:04	amalloy	if his plan is to merge two sorted files into a larger sorted file, none of these "one item from each' approaches work at all
23:05	Xorlev	Do you guys have any tips for keeping data structures straight as program complexity grows? In more static languages, types are rather explicit but they're a lot less so in Clojure.
23:05	yogthos	Xorlev: naming conventions help
23:06	yogthos	Xorlev: for example in the standard lib if a function takes a map it's usually denoted as m, key values as k v, etc
23:07	Xorlev	Pseudo-hungarian approach then... okay, I think I could deal with that. How about things like maps -- what keys does it need to actually be useful? Or is that when you'd define a protocol instead?
23:08	SurlyFrog	tomoj: thanks, that works!
23:08	tomoj	I'm surprised
23:09	tomoj	I thought amalloy was right
23:09	SurlyFrog	well, it solves the problem I asked about, amalloy just pointed out another issue :-)
23:09	tomoj	ah, yes :)
23:09	yogthos	hehe
23:09	yogthos	Xorlev: documentation is often used to help figure out what's what, for example https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/master/SPEC
23:10	SurlyFrog	Is there not a disk-based merge sort already canned someplace?
23:10	amalloy	i mean, the whole thing is easily modeled as (write-to-file "out" (lazy-merge-sort (read-file "in1") (read-file "in2")))
23:11	yogthos	Xorlev: in general it helps to add docs inline to the functions inline as well
23:11	amalloy	all of those functions already exist
23:11	amalloy	under some name or other
23:11	yogthos	a lot of time solving a problem is a game of finding the right functions to glue together :P
23:12	Xorlev	yogthos: Thanks for the link to the ring docs, that makes a lot of sense :) I'm embarking on my first non-trivial Clojure application. Have a great night/day
23:12	yogthos	Xorlev: good luck :)
23:12	SurlyFrog	yeah….I know, I just haven't found what I was looking for.
23:12	yogthos	Xorlev: my biggest advice is to keep the functions short and readable :P
23:13	Xorlev	That's something I've noticed...Clojure forces you away from monolithic functions.
23:13	Xorlev	Or into catchy hard-to-decompress one-liners. Not sure what's worse.
23:13	yogthos	SurlyFrog: might be useful :) https://github.com/chrismgray/clojure-heap-sort
23:14	yogthos	Xorlev: you have to have a bit of discipline when writing stuff, if something is hard to read it probably should be refactored
23:15	spjt_	anyone bored and want to do a code review of my first clojure program? :)
23:15	yogthos	Xorlev: while it's often tempting to write really dense code, it's really best not to
23:15	yogthos	spjt_: could take a look :P
23:15	Xorlev	People make the same mistakes with Scala. Some library authors, even
23:15	SurlyFrog	yogthos: it looks like that does everything in memory
23:16	spjt_	yogthos: http://pastebin.com/g83F3bGF
23:16	spjt_	yogthos: It's for a school assignment but I've already turned it in.
23:16	yogthos	Xorlev: I find one thing I do is write a solution first, and then refactor it to clean it up after
23:16	spjt_	yogthos: It generates a list of primes between prime-min and prime-max. It's very slow.
23:16	yogthos	Xorlev: with a repl it's pretty natural to do, and because you're working with an AST, you can just rip out nodes and make them into standalone functions
23:17	yogthos	spjt_: gotcha :)
23:18	Xorlev	yogthos: I'll give that a try. Thank you so much :)
23:18	yogthos	Xorlev: no prob :)
23:19	yogthos	spjt_: are the agents part of the requirement? :)
23:19	spjt_	yogthos: It has to be multithreaded.
23:20	spjt_	yogthos: It does "efficiently" distribute the workload over multiple cores, at least in the sense that it heats up the CPU good (all cores running at 100%) but it still takes a long time.
23:21	yogthos	spjt_: generating primes is slow business, hence why encryption still works :P
23:21	spjt_	yogthos: My general question which I've never really seen addressed is the relative efficiency of the different data structures in Clojure (e.g. I use sets for the "small primes" and a list for the "large primes")
23:22	spjt_	yogthos: It's all anecdotal but the people who used C++ said they got "4 seconds" whereas mine takes around 70 seconds, of course given whatever computer they have and I have, which I have no idea.
23:23	yogthos	spjt_: yeah there's some variation there
23:23	yogthos	spjt_: also did you run with the -server flag?
23:23	yogthos	spjt_: and you might want to try multiple runs to let it warm up
23:23	yogthos	spjt_: I mean within the same jvm session
23:23	spjt_	yogthos: The best I can say is that the clojure program took 70 seconds of wall time and 250 seconds of CPU time on a 4-core CPU :)
23:24	yogthos	you could fiddle with partition sizes as well
23:24	spjt_	yogthos: I did fiddle with that, 100K gave the best results
23:24	yogthos	ah :)
23:25	spjt_	That was part of the problem, I couldn't figure out how to compile it or use -server flags
23:26	spjt_	i guess i figured out -server
23:26	ivan	how do I call a static method on a package-private class?
23:26	yogthos	spjt_: you can add :jvm-opts ["-Xmx1g" "-server"] in your project.clj
23:27	spjt_	project.clj?
23:27	clojurebot	unquote in project.clj is an escape hatch
23:27	spjt_	server definitely helps
23:27	yogthos	spjt_: if you use leiningen to build https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
23:28	spjt_	yogthos: I couldn't use leiningen, it had to compile and run from a shell script on a server without clojure installed
23:28	yogthos	spjt_: ah gotcha
23:28	spjt_	yogthos: It runs in 51s with -server, though.
23:29	yogthos	spjt_: some tricks here https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/clojure/yPaQN7JuKFY
23:29	yogthos	spjt_: significant improvement :P
23:30	yogthos	spjt_: this should help as well -Xincgc : enable incremental garbage collector
23:30	yogthos	although that might be enabled by default now?
23:31	spjt_	I probably could have used knowing how to compile without leiningen
23:31	technomancy	spjt_: for wringing the last bits of perf out of Clojure this is a pretty good overview: http://meshy.org/2009/12/13/widefinder-2-with-clojure.html
23:31	technomancy	if you're I/O bound anyway; for numerics it'll be different
23:32	tmciver	spjt_: you may also want to check out ##(doc pmap)
23:32	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! pmap is bad!
23:32	spjt_	I don't think it was IO bound
23:32	tmciver	hmm
23:33	yogthos	technomancy: that's pretty thorough link, I'm bookmarking that for future reference :)
23:33	yogthos	&(doc pmap)
23:33	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! pmap is bad!
23:34	yogthos	aww
23:34	technomancy	lazybot: I am disappoint
23:34	spjt_	my program may not have been the fastest, but I'll bet it was the shortest :)
23:34	nightfly	&(doc #'pmap)
23:34	yogthos	spjt_: and pretty readable to boot :P
23:34	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! pmap is bad!
23:35	tmciver	maybe something like (pmap check-prime (range max-prime)) where check-prime could create a map with a key indicating if the value was prime. Then you could filter that.
23:35	spjt_	yogthos: yeah, I could have made it about 1/3 the size by composing all the functions. I also noticed after I wrote it that I could have just wrote 1E7 instead of (Math/pow 10 7) :)
23:37	spjt_	It's my first clojure program, so I'm not expecting anything too spectacular
23:37	yogthos	tmciver: might be better to partition first (pmap check-primes (partition-all 1000 (range max)))
23:38	spjt_	In my programming languages class we had to give a talk to convince the class to do one language or another, I failed and we're doing Haskell
23:39	yogthos	spjt_: haskell is good for you :P
23:39	tmciver	yogthos: is pmap not parallelized for a single collection. I've never actually used it. :)
23:39	spjt_	Haskell isn't good for me
23:39	yogthos	tmciver: I've used it once in production so far :)
23:40	yogthos	spjt_: most ideas translate well to clojure, if you get good at haskell you'll grok clojure better as well
23:40	spjt_	I'd think lisp is best for teaching people used to imperative programming how to do functional programming in a controlled environment because there's none of the "what does :!:@-> mean"
23:41	yogthos	spjt_: well lisp does have really simple syntax going for it
23:41	TimMc	spjt_: Don't be too sure. :-P
23:41	TimMc	~rest
23:41	clojurebot	rest is easy to write without alphanumerics: https://www.refheap.com/paste/5980
23:41	yogthos	spjt_: I don't know why so many people are averse to it
23:41	TimMc	You can still have line noise in a Lisp!
23:41	tmciver	TimMc: cut it out.
23:41	TimMc	haha
23:41	tmciver	:)
23:42	yogthos	macros can certainly get pretty impenetrable :P
23:42	abp`	That's how I program all day long.
23:42	nightfly	spjt_: Yeah, I had several false starts at learning functional programming with Haskell. Clojure was fairly simple to get into.
23:42	yogthos	TimMc: and that is pretty epic :P
23:42	spjt_	I ended up learning functional programming with Scala because, well, if I couldn't do it functional, I could at least do it.
23:43	yogthos	solvip: I started with Scala, but I found I just kept going back to what I know
23:43	yogthos	err spjt_ not solvip :)
23:43	yogthos	spjt_: so then I jumped into deep end with haskell and eventually it started making sense :) after that I moved to clojure and stayed with it :)
23:44	spjt_	My project last summer was to learn a functional language, and Scala ended up winning mostly because I could fall back on imperative when I couldn't figure out how to do it functional
23:45	spjt_	when I came back to Clojure after that it all made a lot more sense.
23:46	yogthos	spjt_: I find scala to be very busy, it seems to take c++ approach of just throwing every language concept into a cauldron :)
23:47	spjt_	yogthos: yeah, but sometimes that means "I know how to do it in X language, and here it is" :)
23:48	spjt_	I could definitely see scala in the wrong hands being far, far worse than PHP
23:48	yogthos	spjt_: what I found really neat is that by not making an arbitrary distinction between how you treat logic and data you get all these nice things by default
23:48	yogthos	spjt_: what I mean is when you have first class functions, you can pass them as parameters
23:49	yogthos	spjt_: all of a sudden all these visitor patterns, and dependency injection, etc. disappear, you just pass a function in
23:49	spjt_	you can do that in almost any language if you try hard enough
23:49	yogthos	spjt_: nice and simple, by capturing scope and returning functions you can make equivalent of constructors with closures, but you're not introducing any special cases
23:50	spjt_	the worst is anonymous classes in java, they make me want to cry
23:50	yogthos	spjt_: the thing that's appealing is that you just use simple and consistent rules to do all this stuff a lot of languages create special cases for
23:51	yogthos	spjt_: half the frameworks in java are there to compensate for language deficiencies :)
23:51	yogthos	spjt: there was an amusing article on that http://www.grahamlea.com/2013/02/a-new-java-library-for-amazing-productivity/
23:52	spjt	we use "java" at my job, i need to convince them to use clojure, after all, "it works with java"
23:52	yogthos	spjt: it can be done, took me 2 years but we actually moved to clojure on my team :)
23:52	spjt	it might take me two years to figure out how to compile clojure
23:52	yogthos	spjt: I found you have to be very patient about it :)
23:53	yogthos	spjt: leiningen ;)
23:53	spjt	yeah, leiningen probably won't be as much of a problem at work as it is in class
23:54	yogthos	spjt: and if a place is really conservative there's maven :)
23:54	spjt	the thing about that is there's a difference between people writing it and people reading it
23:55	spjt	People would see my Scala code and just be? "wtf"
23:55	yogthos	spjt: but there is a really good case to be made, it runs on the same infrastructure, you can use the same build tools, same build servers, same deployment options, even same IDE
23:55	yogthos	spjt: the only thing that changes is the language
23:55	spjt	bad scala looks like java, good scala looks nothing like it
23:56	yogthos	spjt: scala does seem to be picking up in popularity, I'd certainly rather work with it than java
23:58	spjt	how much of that is java programmers who like not having to put in semicolons
23:59	yogthos	spjt: can hope it's the gateway drug :P