#clojure – 2013-02-08

2013-02-08

01:08	Frozenlock	I had my first reflex use of `comp'. I feel like I just achieved a new level.
02:53	tomoj	what if you had ::foo/bar read to (keyword ":foo" "bar") if there is no alias for 'foo?
02:53	tomoj	when I read the edn spec I expected ::foo/bar to be valid
02:54	tomoj	but I guess the spec means that the part after the colon must be a valid symbol
03:06	danebez	good morning, I'd be interested to know if anyone has had to motivate the adoption of Clojure for new e-commerce solutions to management in a country where Clojure still virtually unknown and Java and Rails are hugely prevalent
03:09	danebez	management sees potential risks in a) new technology, b) finding resources, especially in emergencies that would affect a system launch, c) lack of success stories of similar projects by local companies
03:14	darth10	@danebez The main problem with Clojure is workforce. But you actually don't really need too many people working on a Clojure project, because of the nature of the language itself.
03:19	headshot	danebez: it's also a jvm language with full access to the java world
03:20	headshot	so if you have a commitment to jvm/java already, it's not an introduction of yet another runtime
03:20	danebez	thanks for the comments. @darth10, can you be more specific as to why collaboration is more effective vs. Java or Rails?
03:20	danebez	@headshot we have no commitment yet
03:21	headshot	oh, "in a country where"
03:21	danebez	i come from a Java background though, but am convinced that a Clojure implementation would be faster, more concise, have fewer bugs and support scalability
03:22	danebez	(better)
03:24	headshot	i kinda lucked out in my workplace. most of the devs are old skool emacs junkies who aren't afraid of lisps
03:24	headshot	and we have a pretty solid commitment to the jvm as a runtime
03:25	shaunxcode	why am I about to argue with someone on hn about clojure "not being a lisp"? time to walk away from the keyboard
03:26	danebez	i'm the only technical person in our company, so you can imagine the blank looks and suspicion when i say that i'd like to implement a system in a new language (and one that a huge amount of capital investment will ride on)
03:27	headshot	i'm not a ruby fan, but it does seem there are a lot of ruby -> clojure "converts"
03:27	headshot	so that might help with staffing
03:28	shaunxcode	danebez: if you are in it for the long haul - go for it - otherwise I can see their point. Maybe I am biased as I have had to say no to myself wrt using clojure on work projects when there are no other developers wanting to learn it :-(
03:28	atyz	danebez: i missed the first part of that conversation (disconnected), but i've found rails to be an incredibly effective prototyping tool
03:28	headshot	but if you have a bunch of commodity java developers to choose from, that can be quite a brain shock
03:29	danebez	people converting to clojure for web applications from rails when they get decent performance these days is super interesting
03:29	headshot	especially if you might be the only clojure job they might ever get in some long term
03:29	danebez	i wonder what the major benefits are
03:29	atyz	danebez: for protyping you won't beat rails
03:29	atyz	the issue is that with rails you're stuck with so much convention
03:29	atyz	and decisions that have already been made for you
03:29	atyz	as a frame work it isn't THAT flexible
03:29	atyz	its big and fat - and it can be difficult to scale
03:30	atyz	clojure on the other hand is implemented on the jvm and you can easily choose your components
03:30	atyz	i like its minimalist approach
03:30	danebez	rails seem to have grown into something rather enormous, i'm hesitant to learn it (and Ruby) coming from a JVM background
03:30	atyz	but this is a weird arguement to be having as its rails (a framework) vs a language
03:31	atyz	danebez: ruby is the best multitool language i have ever used
03:31	atyz	its tooling is amazing and it can do almost anything you want - don't look to it for speed/performance though
03:31	atyz	the community behind is is also really great
03:33	danebez	given a clean slate, why choose something that isn't as powerful or concise as Clojure on the functional side, is probably slower, isn't JVM-oriented (except JRuby) and will probably take longer to learn?
03:35	shaunxcode	sorry did you already mention the region you are working in?
03:37	danebez	no
03:37	danebez	i am in South Africa
03:39	danebez	at the moment, there are virtually no clojure skills being offered on the job market as there are too few companies using clojure still
03:39	tomoj	actually, I'd be happy with this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/698cbbb111cb0d200dcce066e
03:39	danebez	the companies that use it either had someone learn it, or hired someone for which it was a "hobby"
03:42	ejackson	danebez: there is a web company it Cape Town using Clojure
03:42	ejackson	so that's at least 1
03:42	danebez	yes i am aware of 2 companies ;-)
03:42	ejackson	ok
03:43	ejackson	but yeah, clojure is a double edged sword right now. You get a self selecting group of enthusiastic, and hence usually, skilled, programmers. There're not lots of them though.
03:43	ejackson	Frankly I value that, high signal to noise ratio.
03:44	danebez	exactly, it seems to be favoured by experienced/skilled/smart developers, which kinda makes it exclusive. but the current java/rails/php ubiquity is by far the largest hindrance imo
03:44	shaunxcode	danebez: I am nearly certain I was chatting with someone on datomic mailing list from south africa (unless it was you hah)
03:45	danebez	no was probably a buddy of mine that runs the local user group
03:46	atyz	ejackson: where are you from?
03:46	shaunxcode	danebez: https://www.cognician.com/ ?
03:46	danebez	yes
03:46	ejackson	atyz: originally, Zimbabwe, then SA, now UK, soon US !
03:47	atyz	ejackson: my parents grew up in bulowayo
03:47	clgv	ejackson: you dont like to stay in one place very long, do you? ;)
03:47	ejackson	atyz: yeah, my grandparents had a farm just outside there.
03:48	ejackson	clgv: yeah, its sadly, true. Wish it wasn't though.
03:48	clgv	ejackson: do you move to the US for a new job?
03:49	atyz	I'm looking at moving to US in a year or 2
03:49	ejackson	actually, I'm just following the missus this time. She got a great job, and I'm going along. I'm an indie dev/consultant so I don't mind where my keyboard rests.
03:49	ejackson	atyz: good move.
04:01	amalloy	oh, we'll have you among us now, ejackson? where in the US?
04:02	ejackson	amalloy: not for months yet - December is the appointed time
04:02	amalloy	ah
04:02	ejackson	I'm heading to the South to try fill the Clojure gap left by Raynes's departure: Nashville, TN
04:02	amalloy	you've missed it, then. dunno about england, but in the US that was two months ago
04:03	ejackson	amalloy: its one of those timezone things.... :)
04:43	borkdude	where can I find the source of the port of clojure datastructures in clojurescript?
04:43	borkdude	in which file on the clojurescript repo I mean
04:59	edlothiol	borkdude: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/cljs/core.cljs#L2863
05:00	abp	How can I find out on which ports nrepl servers are running?
05:02	abp	I've set the repl-options in my project.clj but can't M-x nrepl to the specified port after "lein ring server".
05:07	borkdude	another question: there was a discussion once about why elisp wasn't a good candidate for being a clojure host, because it doesn't have immutability- but javascript doesn't either right?
05:10	Bodil	borkdude: Uh, neither does the JVM, so that can't really be a serious argument... or am I missing something here?
05:13	borkdude	Bodil http://technomancy.us/159
05:13	vijaykiran	wasn't it because of lack-of reader macros and concurrency related stuff ?
05:16	borkdude	Bodil JVM strings are immutable, also Java has "final" which makes it not easy to change stuff
05:16	borkdude	but apparantly in clojurescript this is not considered a problem
05:16	Bodil	borkdude: The argument seems to be more about using Cljs in place of Elisp rather than whether Elisp can be a Cljs target.
05:17	Bodil	borkdude: JS certainly has most of the same problems, referential transparence is by convention when it's required.
05:17	Bodil	borkdude: referential transparency*
05:19	borkdude	I think I could live with ref. trans. by convention in elisp
05:20	noidi	are emacs lisp strings mutable?
05:20	borkdude	noidi apparently
05:21	noidi	that's a pretty big interop hurdle, then
05:22	borkdude	noidi who is mutating strings these days?
05:23	OscarZ_	doing some 4clojure problems.. I tried to creating a function with multiple arities for reduce.. whats the difference between (def func (fn ([] 0) ...)) compared to (fn func ([] 0) ...) ?
05:24	noidi	OscarZ_, in the latter no var is created for the function
05:25	noidi	the function name parameter to `fn` is only needed for non-tail recursion
05:26	noidi	so, the first one's an anonymous function bound to a var, the latter is a function with a name but not bound to a var
05:26	OscarZ_	ah ok.. i was wondering what can you do with that name after fn but of course you can make a recursive call...
05:27	OscarZ_	thanks makes sense
05:35	OscarZ_	from the docs: "def yields the var itself (not its value)." .. so I guess it binds the function to name "func" ... but what kind of beast is var itself? :)
05:43	OscarZ_	I tried (def foo (def bar (fn ([x y] (+ x y))))) in REPL.. ok i think i get it
06:05	ejackson	Bodil: nice shirt, glad somebody finally said it so clearly.
06:07	Bodil	ejackson: I'm not going to take credit for that. http://wadler.blogspot.no/2012/12/tech-mesh-2012.html :)
06:09	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Be my guest :)
06:10	ejackson	Bodil: nothing is new.
08:54	jweiss	I'm baffled that my clojure function that reduces a list to a list, and then reduces that list a single number, seems to peg all 4 cpus (with a large list). how is that possible? Here's the code: https://www.refheap.com/paste/11048
09:14	ponzao	jweiss, you are iterating through the list a few times so I guess it is only natural
09:35	clgv	jweiss: it's not your code but maybe the garbage collector if you list is large enough
09:39	calis	Should I learn clojure with Emacs (with Emacs Live) or Sublime as my editor? I'm unfamiliar with both
09:41	arrdem	calis: I've never used Sublime so I don't know how good its repl (if it has one) is, but I'll say that I moved from vim to emacs because of nrep.el
09:42	jweiss	clgv: yeah that must be it. a million items in the list
09:42	clgv	calis: there are more alternative, e.g. Counterclockise in Eclipse
09:49	Foxboron	calis: what OS?
09:49	calis	OS X
09:49	Foxboron	arrdem: it got capable REPL, as long as you fix the keybinds :P
09:50	Foxboron	calis: then you can choose TBH. Emacs got a steaper learning curve, but you get really into all LISPY stuff
09:50	Foxboron	calis: if you just want things to work and look good, go Sublime Text 2 and SublimeREPL
09:50	Foxboron	I have two packages to help with documentations for CLojure in Sublime text
09:50	Foxboron	(one for autocompletion and one for general docs)
09:51	Foxboron	I do recommend Emacs if you wanna get really down with Clojure
09:56	calis	Can u set up sublime with Emacs bindings? Maybe that's best, then I can switch to Emacs when I grow a beard and become a real developer
09:57	Foxboron	calis: i really dont recommend emacs bindings in general <.<
09:57	Foxboron	go with the vim keybinds (which Sublime allready supports) and use those when you get into emacs
09:58	Foxboron	calis: but too answer your question; yes you can setup with emacs keybinds
09:58	aroemers	callenbot: if you go with ST, try the GotoOpenFile package (and hide the tab bar and side bar), it'll get you used to switching files (or buffers as they are called in emacs)
09:59	Foxboron	calis: https://github.com/grundprinzip/sublemacspro
09:59	aroemers	calis: ^
09:59	Foxboron	but again. VIM keybinds > Emacs keybinds
09:59	aroemers	callenbot: sorry, nevermind me
10:00	Foxboron	Editors in general: Emacs before vim.
10:00	Foxboron	(my opinions)
10:00	Foxboron	(don't kill me)
10:01	arcatan	I think that the times of the holy editor wars are over
10:01	arcatan	they should be, anyway :P
10:01	calis	Thanks all
10:01	ttimvisher	we're trying to use cascalog interactively from a slime session and under circumstances that we haven't pinned down yet it keeps failing to find our test file on the classpath after working for a while.
10:01	ttimvisher	anyone experienced something like that before and know how to resolve it?
10:04	ttimvisher	we're on hadoop 1.1.1 and cascalog 1.10.0 if that helps
10:05	kryft	Foxboron: I agree, and emacs in evil mode has been quite nice so far :)
10:05	Foxboron	kryft: i do have small problems with it, but just change too emacs mode again and it works :P
10:06	llasram	ttimvisher: Are you runing jobs on a cluster from the REPL, or is this just Hadoop local mode?
10:06	ttimvisher	llasram: remote cluster
10:07	llasram	ttimvisher: How are getting your job contents all available on the task classpath -- launching the REPL from an uberjar, or some other mechanism?
10:09	ttimvisher	llasram: i'm actually not totally sure how to answer that. we're basically trying to work through these examples: http://nathanmarz.com/blog/introducing-cascalog-a-clojure-based-query-language-for-hado.html
10:10	ttimvisher	does bootstrap do something to do that?
10:11	llasram	No. Let's see. So when you submit a Hadoop job to a cluster, you hand the Hadoop mapreduce framework a JAR, which needs to contain all the job's dependencies you have arranged to be available on other nodes by some other mechanism (such as static cluster-wide deployment and addition to the HADOOP_CLASSPATH)
10:14	llasram	There's a couple of ways to do that. The two most-used approaches are (a) to build an uberjar and (b) to distribute the jars via the distributed cache then add them to the task classpath (the hadoop commaandline "-libjars" option)
10:14	ttimvisher	llasram: ah. i see. we've got a little shell script that's `uberjar`ing and rsyncing up to the cluster. i think i don't know enought to even ask the right question at this point :)
10:15	llasram	Ok. Are you explicitly specifying that uberjar as the job JAR somehow?
10:16	llasram	If not, my hypothesis is that if you look at your the logs, in the failure cases Cascading has infered something else (probably the Cascading or Cascalog JAR) to be the job JAR
10:17	llasram	Second hypothesis is Hadoop gremlins
10:17	ttimvisher	llasram: looks like we _may_ have simply been using a bad ns declaration :\
10:18	llasram	haha
10:19	ttimvisher	not sure how it was working before
10:20	llasram	Hadoop gremlins
10:41	devn	Raynes: You around?
10:42	devn	Raynes: On morphin the README has a note: "More will come soon" -- any ideas for what other sorts of ranges you'd add?
10:47	TimMc	gfredericks: This is how I imagine your Swearjure talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5N35kQAPv0
10:48	TimMc	gfredericks: (Either the first part or the second part, I'm not sure which. :-P)
10:52	babilen	tpope: Ping me if you need further details regarding vim-foreplay/issues/51
10:52	hyPiRion	~quicksort
10:52	clojurebot	quicksort is not something you need alphanumerics for: https://www.refheap.com/paste/284a0552a6b69c6037faa2db5
10:54	TimMc	(for some definitions of quick)
10:55	hyPiRion	O(n^3) worst case.
10:56	hyPiRion	It's a bit boring that rest is O(n). Wonder if we can speed that up.
10:56	TimMc	Surely n^3 log n?
10:56	TimMc	Oh, I guess you can ignore log factors at that point.
10:56	TimMc	rest might even be worse than n
10:56	hyPiRion	TimMc: Wha?
10:56	TimMc	What's this do? (= `[~@list] [])
10:57	hyPiRion	Oh for. God riddance.
10:57	hyPiRion	O(n^4) or something then
10:59	TimMc	(That "what's this" was about your quicksort preview code. I think it can be simplified.)
10:59	TimMc	So yeah, my swearjure-rest not only builds up a new copy of the input, it also does a comparison check with the original input, which is O(n).
10:59	TimMc	And there's maybe even another (into ...) step somewhere.
11:00	TimMc	Time to measure it, I guess!
11:00	TimMc	~rest
11:00	clojurebot	rest never returns a unicorn
11:00	TimMc	~rest
11:00	clojurebot	rest never returns a unicorn
11:00	TimMc	~rest
11:00	clojurebot	rest is easy to write without alphanumerics: https://www.refheap.com/paste/5980
11:01	hyPiRion	TimMc: oh right, I've not posted the whole thing
11:01	hyPiRion	I'll pop it up for you
11:02	hyPiRion	TimMc: https://www.refheap.com/paste/79c034805f87edf1e54c5c8b0
11:03	TimMc	Is that the same logic as my rest?
11:03	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: beautiful
11:03	TimMc	No, it's got a gensym in it. Nasty.
11:04	TimMc	I mean, beautiful.
11:04	TimMc	Very clever.
11:05	hyPiRion	TimMc: If it's going to be incomprehensible, better make it as incomprehensible as possible.
11:06	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: do the wrong thing right?
11:07	hyPiRion	ivaraasen: Two wrongs make one right
11:08	TimMc	hyPiRion: I can't tell if that's better or worse than my trick.
11:09	TimMc	I think it has the same time complexity.
11:09	hyPiRion	TimMc: Yeah, it has the same time complexity
11:10	hyPiRion	Hm.
11:11	ln2	This is probably the most silly question ever asked. But what does the # character do? (I tried google and failed miserably) =(
11:11	hyPiRion	,(map (fn [a] ({[] true} a false)) [() nil [] [1 2 3] (list 1 2 3)])
11:11	clojurebot	(true false true false false)
11:11	TimMc	ln2: Look at http://clojure.org/reader
11:12	TimMc	ln2: It's a dispatch symbol for the reader -- what's important is the character that comes after it.
11:12	TimMc	#{ starts a set, #( starts a function literal, etc.
11:13	TimMc	If you find it at the end of a symbol, however, it's a gensym.
11:13	TimMc	Don't worry about those for now.
11:13	hyPiRion	TimMc: We can probably replace (= `[~@list] []) with ({[] true, nil true} list)
11:13	ln2	TimMc: Thank you! I have a lot of reading to do on this.
11:13	Frozenlock	Well, I found some of my older code using read-string without changing read-eval. :(
11:14	TimMc	hyPiRion: Well, it's more that `[~@list] and list are in the same eequality partition.
11:14	hyPiRion	TimMc: Huh? I thought .equals first compared length, then elements
11:15	TimMc	&(= '(1 2 3) [1 2 3])
11:15	lazybot	⇒ true
11:15	TimMc	&(= `[~@'(1 2 3)] [1 2 3]) ;; unnecessary
11:15	lazybot	⇒ true
11:15	hyPiRion	&(= nil [])
11:15	lazybot	⇒ false
11:15	ln2	Is there a more general / easier definition for what a dispatch is exactly?
11:16	hyPiRion	&(= `[~@nil] [])
11:16	lazybot	⇒ true
11:16	ln2	(I did read the clojure.org document)
11:16	TimMc	ln2: Hmm. Don't worry about that for now either. Just know that "#{" is a single token, "#" isn't doing something to "{".
11:17	TimMc	# isn't anything by itself.
11:17	ln2	TimMc: Alright thanks! I just get frustrated when I see code that contains something I don't understand and/or cant replicate. =(
11:18	hyPiRion	#{} is an empty set, #! is the same as ; (comment), #(...) is a function, #"abc" is a regular expression
11:18	ln2	I'm on #38 on 4clojure and some of the solutions included # (I had to cheat on two of them).
11:18	hyPiRion	#'foo is something you shouldn't worry about
11:18	hyPiRion	ln2: if there's #(... % ...), then consider it as (fn [%] (... % ...))
11:19	ln2	I wonder why the decision was made to use one character in so many different wants? Is that unique to Clojure?
11:19	TimMc	It goes back decades.
11:19	hyPiRion	It's pretty common for lisps.
11:19	ln2	Interesting. So if I start a fn with # it automatically assumes inputs %1 %2 %3 ect.?
11:20	TimMc	Depending on what %n it finds inside, yes.
11:20	ln2	Very cool !
11:20	TimMc	,'#(+ % %2)
11:20	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__55# p2__56#] (+ p1__55# p2__56#))
11:20	hyPiRion	ln2: I'll make some examples to give you an idea
11:21	ln2	The ' character means "treat as raw data" correct?
11:21	TimMc	Yeah, it's quote.
11:21	TimMc	'foo is (quote foo)
11:21	kryft	ln2: Or "don't evaluate"
11:21	ln2	'win == "win" ?
11:21	TimMc	Nope.
11:22	TimMc	It still has to contain well-formed Clojure code, unlike a string.
11:22	Frozenlock	,(= (name 'win) "win")
11:22	clojure-newb	hey guys, I'd like to compare the values in two maps, how can I turn the values into sets and compare ?
11:22	clojurebot	true
11:22	hyPiRion	ln2: win is a symbol, 'win means "don't evaluate (lookup the value of) win)
11:22	clojure-newb	or is that not how I would do it ?
11:22	TimMc	clojure-newb: Call vals on the two maps.
11:22	ln2	hyPiRion: I think I'm starting to get it. Thanks. =)
11:22	ln2	kryft: Thank you. =D
11:23	ln2	Alright I'm going to continue on with my 4clojure now. xD
11:23	TimMc	Err... maybe call set on those? I think they might not be sets.
11:23	TimMc	Right, vals can contain duplicates.
11:23	clojure-newb	so (hash-set whatever) ?
11:23	clojure-newb	and then (= hs1 hs2) ?
11:23	TimMc	Just set.
11:23	clojure-newb	oh
11:23	clojure-newb	ok
11:24	clojure-newb	thx
11:24	TimMc	clojure-newb: Would {:a 1 :b 1 :c 2} have the same vals as {:a 1 :b 2}?
11:24	clojure-newb	erm no
11:25	clojure-newb	would need {:a 1 :b 2} == {:a 1 :b 2}
11:25	TimMc	hyPiRion: I get a stack overflow with my rest on a 1e4 element vector.
11:25	TimMc	clojure-newb: Oh, the keys need to match as well? Just use = on the maps.
11:25	hyPiRion	ln2: https://www.refheap.com/paste/23405de5f52cdb3c531bd5c35 Should cover most of the #(...) examples
11:25	hyPiRion	use-cases*
11:26	clojure-newb	TimMc: sorry no the keys do not need to match, but there are the same number of key/val pairs in each of my maps
11:26	hyPiRion	TimMc: :jvm-opts ["-Xss1000m"]
11:26	ln2	hyPiRion: Holy Sh** thanks!!! Bookmarked!
11:27	clojure-newb	think I've got it with 'set' thx
11:27	TimMc	clojure-newb: Then would {:a 1 :b 1 :c 2} have the same vals as {:d 1 :e 2 :f 1}?
11:27	TimMc	err, {:d 2 :e 1 :f 2}
11:27	TimMc	Note that one as 2 2s, and the other has 2 1s.
11:28	clojure-newb	TimMc: my case is something like {:a 1 :b 2} compared to {:a1 1 :b1 2}
11:28	clojure-newb	so set on the vals should be good
11:29	hyPiRion	ln2: You're welcome :) I had problems finding documentation on the #() thing, so I can relate
11:29	kryft	Hmm, algorithms and data structures are generally presented in imperative pseudo-code. How hard is it usually to come up with a decent functional implementation? I'm asking as someone who is quite new to both functional programming and algorithms and data structures (my CS background is, uh, checkered)
11:29	TimMc	clojure-newb: So duplicate vals of different "multiplicity" don't bother you?
11:29	clojure-newb	TimMc: no as I'll be grabbing keys I control beforehand
11:31	hyPiRion	kryft: I have found it to be hard to program algorithms with functional programming languages first time I tried, but with some training I've found it to be just as "hard" as imperative programming. A "problem" is the speed. Usually functional versions have a higher constant, though they have the same runtime.
11:31	ln2	hyPiRion: Even on clojure.org it doesn't give a very good high level explanation either. Most of this documentation assumes you have java and/or lisp experience. =(
11:32	hyPiRion	ln2: I think it requires programming experience in general. And I know, it's a bit sad
11:32	ln2	hyPiRion: Yup. Got zero of that. xD
11:33	ln2	hyPiRion: Maybe there will be some books or websites that target true "beginner" programs for Clojure soon. We really need to teach the next generation of programmers to think and program in this way. Not just ourselves!
11:33	ln2	*programmers
11:34	hyPiRion	ln2: I think the community would be very happy if you could note down where you are struggling. I'd love to help making it easier to learn the basics of programming through Clojure, but I'm afraid I will assume that people have an understanding of this and that.
11:34	hyPiRion	Which they most likely won't when they've never programmed before.
11:35	hyPiRion	Also, a dictionary of words would be nice. I still find "multiple dispatch" a bit... academic?
11:35	ln2	hyPiRion: That is actually a really really great idea. I will start making some notes now considering I'm still less than a week into it. Maybe the notes can help give perspective on the brain of a completely virgin programmer attempting to learn FP. xD
11:35	kryft	hyPiRion: Ok, thanks :)
11:36	hyPiRion	kryft: If you're going to learn algorithms and data structures, do so with an imperative programming language like Java or C++. Most books are designed for those languages, so attempting to learn both at same time may inflict more pain than you'd like :p
11:37	ln2	I think that an "absolute beginner" course for lamda calculus would solve a lot of problems with grasping Clojure.
11:38	Natch	ln2: if you have 20+ hours of free time I heartily recommend Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs video lectures and book if you want an intro to programming and how stuff works using lisp (scheme). free from http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
11:38	ln2	Natch: Thank you!!! I love lectures! Haha
11:39	Frozenlock	Those are amazing lectures
11:39	ln2	Watching right now =)
11:39	Frozenlock	Blackboard... So many parentheses without the help of an editor.
11:40	kryft	hyPiRion: I was afraid you'd say that. :P I'm trying to decide on my first clojure project, and many of the ideas seem like they might involve non-trivial algorithms (i.e. something I might have to look up) or numerics
11:42	kryft	hyPiRion: (I'm mentioning numerics separately from algorithms mainly because I expect numerics has its own considerations compared to, say, graph algorithms)
11:43	hyPiRion	kryft: I think programming the solutions in FP is a great way to really understand the problem and its solutions, but it involves to think outside the textbook and lectures.
11:44	kryft	hyPiRion: Ah, I'm not taking a course in anything, just teaching myself
11:46	kryft	hyPiRion: But yeah, of course the point about needing to think outside the textbook pseudocode still stands. :P
11:46	hyPiRion	kryft: If you really want to understand both worlds, then I think it's a great approach. Just be prepared to spend some time with it :)
11:47	kryft	hyPiRion: Ok, thanks :)
11:47	kryft	I want to understand everything, which is why I often get very little done :P
11:48	hyPiRion	I did a blogpost on the "functional programming + algorithms" thing, not sure if it helps you to pick "the right thing", but I can at least point you to it: http://hypirion.com/musings/fbhc-2013-in-clojure
11:49	hyPiRion	(Facebook Hacker Cup is an "algorithm and data structures"-competition)
11:50	hyPiRion	What you'd like is the introduction and the "Improving Ancient Skills"-part.
11:51	kryft	hyPiRion: My limited exposure to functional programming has certainly changed the code I write in less functional language
11:52	ToBeReplaced	i've been thinking about DOM manipulation problems; has anyone tried modeling nodes as time-series?
11:52	hyPiRion	(inc kryft)
11:52	lazybot	⇒ 1
11:53	hyPiRion	kryft: It's all about picking the right tool, and sometimes you can partially have your tool in a language not designed for it :)
11:53	desertmonad	if I buy Clojure Programming from orally with a coupon, do the authors get less royalty from that purchase?
11:53	desertmonad	er, oreilly
11:53	desertmonad	lol
11:54	tpope	babilen: I'm around
11:55	babilen	tpope: Ah, wonderful. Might be easier like this.
11:56	babilen	tpope: I just commented that one way would be to check for (defproject ...) in project.clj, but that might still cause false positives. I can't really think of a fool-proof method to decide this though. Checking for "(defproject ..)" strikes me as better than checking for "src" though.
11:57	babilen	Or is anyone here aware of a good method to test if something is a leiningen project if project.clj is around?
11:57	tpope	slurping the entire file in is lame
11:57	tpope	is there really nothing in the directory we can rely on?
11:59	babilen	I agree, but AFAIK there is nothing like a .this-is-a-lein-project or something like that. The best I can come up with is "test for project.clj" or "test for project.clj and check that it contains (defproject ..)"
11:59	hyPiRion	babilen: project.clj may have multiple statements. You'd have to check every single statement to do that.
11:59	hyPiRion	(the (defproject ...) check)
12:01	babilen	hyPiRion: Can you think of another way to test this?
12:01	hyPiRion	You could possibly make a "lein-nothing" plugin which does nothing and requires a project. It will return an error message if it's not within a project map.
12:02	hyPiRion	But that would evaluate project.clj, so be aware of that.
12:02	tpope	I'm looking to do static analysis actually
12:02	babilen	hyPiRion: Sounds as if simply running "lein classpath" to get the classpath (or an error) would be a viable option then.
12:03	babilen	But that also does not allow for a static check
12:03	babilen	As I said: Checking for project.clj and testing its content is the best I can think of. That might not be beautiful, but I really can't think of anything else. (short of using lein)
12:03	tpope	I was checking for both project.clj and src/. but apparently some people are too good to have a src/
12:04	hyPiRion	tpope: Yeah, people may have clojure/ and java/
12:04	ToBeReplaced	or src-clj src-cljs
12:04	hyPiRion	Leiningen checks by evaluating project.clj really, so.. shrugs
12:04	babilen	hyPiRion: Some people don't use src/ but configure :source-paths ["übersrc"] in project.clj or something along those lines.
12:05	hyPiRion	babilen: exactly.
12:05	tpope	these are horrible people
12:05	nDuff	Eh.
12:05	babilen	tpope: I agree - But I ran into it today, went "wtf" and figured out what can be done to solve this.
12:05	nDuff	I think "anyone who does that is awful" is an excuse for people to write a lot of very horrid code
12:05	nDuff	ie. assuming in shell scripts that there will never be files or directories with spaces or newlines in their names
12:06	nDuff	the bugs that fall out of those assumptions are frequently security-exploitable
12:06	hyPiRion	But if there's a project.clj and it contains a defproject, it's considered a Leiningen project. Whether it's malformed or not is another issue.
12:06	nDuff	...building code to be robust even against things that only "horrible people" do is simply the Right Thing.
12:06	tpope	counterexample: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/leiningen-core/src/leiningen/core/project.clj
12:06	tpope	nDuff: yes, which is why I'm trying to find a solution
12:06	babilen	+1
12:08	babilen	tpope: To get this straight: you don't actually call "lein classpath" to determine the classpath in every case? And you also see checking the content of project.clj (does it contain (defproject ...)?) as an ugly solution?
12:08	gfredericks	hyPiRion: cool, thanks
12:08	tpope	babilen: well for starters, classpath.vim is technically optional. you can connect to nrepl without it
12:09	tpope	there's two different checks for this. one in classpath.vim and one in foreplay.vim
12:09	hyPiRion	tpope: Leiningen considers that folder to be a project, and casts an exception because project.clj is malformed.
12:09	kryft	hyPiRion: I've also heard about things like Okasaki's Purely Functional Data Structures, but I thought that might be overkill at this point
12:09	tpope	hyPiRion: yes, but lein has the luxury of telling the user not to do that
12:09	TimMc	nDuff: And -- all the things!
12:10	tpope	foreplay works irrespective of the cwd
12:10	hyPiRion	kryft: I got that book, and it doesn't go into "standard" algorithms
12:10	hyPiRion	And I think it requires some familiarity with data structures from before
12:11	hyPiRion	tpope: heh. Life's hard, eh.
12:11	hyPiRion	Make some bayesian network which returns a probability that the folder is a leiningen project or not.
12:11	ln2	I love the Eval => Apply wizard. Haha
12:12	kryft	hyPiRion: Right
12:13	ln2	Iceland_jack: No I'm watching the MIT Lisp lectures. xD
12:13	tpope	babilen: if you want to help, step one is taking foreplay.vim's s:hunt and factoring it inline
12:13	alexnixon	hyPiRion: re your blog post - note that although C++ hasn't historically encouraged the use FP-related principles (e.g. purity, immutability), the language doesn't prevent you from doing so
12:13	tpope	there's only one consumer left
12:14	TimMc	tpope: What does foreplay.vim do?
12:14	babilen	tpope: Ok, I'd love to help, but have to see how far I can get.
12:14	nDuff	alexnixon: Makes it very easy to slip out of them by mistake, however, and hard to analyze whether something is conformant.
12:15	babilen	TimMc: vim → nrepl plugin : https://github.com/tpope/vim-foreplay (think of it as nrepl.el for vim)
12:16	tpope	yeah basically
12:16	hyPiRion	alexnixon: Indeed. The difference between Clojure vs. C++ is that Clojure has immutable datastructures in the core language/standard library, whereas C++ does not
12:16	SurlyFrog	Does Clojure have a method of determining the location of the source file at runtime? I want to get at some data files relative to the source code files. I'm thinking something along Common Lisp's `(make-pathname :defaults load-truename …)` or Python's `__file__` feature.
12:16	TimMc	OK. It was hard to tell from the description.
12:17	nDuff	SurlyFrog: Hmm. There's compile-time metadata with those, but I'm not sure it still exists at runtime.
12:17	hiredman	SurlyFrog: it does, but I recommend using clojure.java.io/resources instead
12:17	TimMc	SurlyFrog: Put things in the ./resources folder.
12:17	tpope	well it's hard to describe. it's technically not nrepl specific
12:17	gfredericks	TimMc: hyPiRion: submitted
12:17	hyPiRion	gfredericks: :D
12:17	hiredman	clojure.java.io/resource
12:17	technomancy	tpope: FWIW lein just checks for project.clj, so if someone has a project.clj that's not in the project root they're going to have issues running lein anyway
12:18	technomancy	tpope: including the leiningen-core project, heh
12:18	technomancy	it has bitten me a couple times but never enough for me to actually fix it
12:18	SurlyFrog	Thanks all, I'll look at clojure.java.io/resource
12:18	tpope	technomancy: yeah, since I'm not using the cwd I need to be more careful about it than you do
12:19	hiredman	SurlyFrog: it lets you load arbitrary files from the classpath
12:19	hiredman	the jvm way to do that sort of thing
12:19	SurlyFrog	hiredman: thanks, my Java experience is limited, but I'll figure it out :-)
12:20	gfredericks	I bet there's significant demand for an "Intro to the JVM for clojure programmers" that cuts out all the java-specific noise
12:22	SurlyFrog	gfredericks: I would definitely second that. I for one have over a decade of experience doing C, Python, and Common Lisp. I really like Clojure, but I find myself lost a lot when it comes to certain JVM items.
12:22	ldh	gfredericks: thirded
12:22	gfredericks	I have a coworker with a lot of C++/ruby in a similar position
12:26	kryft	gfredericks: I was actually just about to ask about that
12:26	jackdanger	gfredericks: fourthed. I had to learn Java to get past intermediate Clojure steps.
12:26	SurlyFrog	So, to do this the proper way, I make a folder named "resources" under my project root (where Leiningen's project.clj file is), then use `(.getFile (clojure.java.io/resource "filename"))` and the JVM will find it?
12:26	Frozenlock	gfredericks: Yes, the JVM is really the hardest part of clojure. Or rather, the implication that one should use it.
12:28	SurlyFrog	There must be something else to it. Possibly a Leiningen option….
12:29	nDuff	SurlyFrog: Depends on your classpath.
12:29	hiredman	don't use .getFile
12:29	nDuff	...oh; was reading too quickly / didn't see the .getFile
12:29	hiredman	use one of the other functions in clojure.java.io, most likely reader or input-stream depending on what you are doing
12:30	nDuff	SurlyFrog: ...so, consider the case where your project has been compiled into a .jar
12:30	SurlyFrog	Well, I'm relying on Leiningen to set up my class path for me. Is there an option to have it add a "resources" subdirectory to it
12:30	nDuff	SurlyFrog: in that case, your resource is no longer a separate file
12:30	SurlyFrog	okay
12:30	hiredman	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L213
12:31	technomancy	SurlyFrog: I think if you create the resources directory after starting your repl it won't be visible until the repl restarts
12:31	technomancy	just an annoying jvm-ism
12:31	SurlyFrog	hiredman: thanks
12:31	SurlyFrog	technomancy: yeah, I had that thought while I was doing it...
12:32	hiredman	the reason to avoid "files" is the normal way to distributed code is as some kind of jar file, so your "files" don't exist as files, they are just entries in the jar (a zip file)
12:32	SurlyFrog	So, the actual key is using the `:resource-paths` in project.clj, correct? By doing that, will the case that nDuff talks about (compiling the project into a jar) be handled?
12:33	hiredman	I think java7 has some nio2 stuff that will let you treat a jar like a filesystem
12:33	technomancy	SurlyFrog: no, you don't need to set :resource-paths unless you're changing the default
12:33	technomancy	creating a "resources" directory in the project root is enough
12:33	nDuff	SurlyFrog: Content in your resource-paths should make it into jars that lein builds for you, yes. (But if it's just project-root/resources, that should already be the case)
12:34	SurlyFrog	nDuff: thanks
12:36	SurlyFrog	Is there a way to denote that a particular resource is only used for testing? In the event I had some giant file that wouldn't need to be included in a JAR being released.
12:37	technomancy	SurlyFrog: sure; put it in dev-resources insntead
12:37	SurlyFrog	technomancy: perfect, thanks so much!
12:39	SurlyFrog	That's in :profiles, correct? So `:profiles {:dev {:resource-paths ["path/to/dir"]}}`
12:39	technomancy	simplest just to mkdir dev-resources
12:40	SurlyFrog	at the top-level of the project?
12:41	SurlyFrog	I see it, thanks
12:49	SurlyFrog	Um, Java inexperience showing again…. `(clojure.java.io/resource "foo")` gives me a URL to a file. I want to read it line by line. Am I correct to assume that using `clojure.java.io/reader` is considered the "right way" to do this?
12:52	hyPiRion	SurlyFrog: (with-open [r (io/reader (io/resource "foo"))] (read lines here))
12:52	hyPiRion	So yes.
12:52	hyPiRion	Either that, or slurp.
12:52	hiredman	(doc line-seq)
12:52	clojurebot	"([rdr]); Returns the lines of text from rdr as a lazy sequence of strings. rdr must implement java.io.BufferedReader."
12:52	SurlyFrog	hyPiRion: thanks so much for confirming! That's what I'm up to :-) Doesn't slurp pull the entire file into memory?
12:53	hyPiRion	SurlyFrog: yup. hiredman's solution also works, but be aware that the reader will be open until the last line is consumed.
12:53	SurlyFrog	got it. thanks so much
12:53	hyPiRion	Actually, hiredman's solution seems to fit better with your goal, so use that one.
12:55	SurlyFrog	I'm doing a `(with-open [rdr (io/reader (io/resource "xxx"))] (doseq [line (line-seq rdr)] ….))
12:55	hyPiRion	That should be safe
12:56	hyPiRion	(In the sense that it shouldn't crash)
12:56	dnolen	feedback welcome http://swannodette.github.com/2013/02/08/the-simply-typed-lambda-calculus-in-20-lines-redux/
13:06	TimMc	dnolen: I'm curious why you decided to move to github. Doesn't that give you less control over your URLs?
13:07	TimMc	Oh, never mind -- you were on posterous before.
13:07	dnolen	TimMc: heh yeah
13:07	dnolen	I just don't want to spend time managing a blog, jekyll + git is convenient.
13:07	TimMc	I'm one of those folks who thinks that everyone should have their own domain name.
13:08	technomancy	I think if you pay for a micro plan github will let you do a CNAME
13:08	dnolen	technomancy: yeah I saw that
13:09	DerGuteMoritz	does anyone know if this is intentional behavior:
13:09	DerGuteMoritz	user> (let [m (transient {1 2})] [(get m 1) (contains? m 1)])
13:09	DerGuteMoritz	[2 false]
13:09	jonasen	dnolen: there is a t (instead of tau) in (1)
13:10	jonasen	in the explanation of (1) that is
13:10	hyPiRion	DerGuteMoritz: sounds very much like a bug.
13:10	hyPiRion	(doc transient)
13:10	clojurebot	"([coll]); Alpha - subject to change. Returns a new, transient version of the collection, in constant time."
13:10	DerGuteMoritz	ah http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-700
13:10	dnolen	jonasen: thanks!
13:11	jonasen	dnolen: nice post btw. Already looking forward to the next one
13:11	TimMc	Wow, that's an old bug.
13:11	DerGuteMoritz	hm something seems to be wrong with the patch :-)
13:11	DerGuteMoritz	anyway, cljs seems to have the same bug
13:11	dnolen	jonasen: thanks
13:12	AtKaaZ	,(sorted? (map? (sorted-map)))
13:12	clojurebot	false
13:12	mrb_bk	dnolen: ooh a new post
13:12	dnolen	jonasen: btw, I think you'll finally get your sequence matching feature in core.logic ;)
13:12	AtKaaZ	why isn't sorted-map implementing Sorted? or what is?
13:12	ln2	I didn't realize that you could use github to hosts websites. That's pretty cool. =)
13:14	AtKaaZ	,(sorted? (sort []))
13:14	clojurebot	false
13:14	mrb_bk	lol @ "Being an undisciplined not computer scientist"
13:14	jonasen	dnolen: that would be very nice
13:14	biff_tannen	qq ... will including lein-ring include ring-core as a dependency ?
13:14	AtKaaZ	mrb_bk: that sounds like me :D
13:14	DerGuteMoritz	ah no, I am mistaken, only -contains-key? has this bug in cljs
13:15	jonasen	dnolen: is it already implemented somewhere?
13:15	dnolen	jonasen: there just wasn't a good place for it, but now that we have featurec we can do it sensibly.
13:15	mrb_bk	dnolen: a link to the paper might be a good idea
13:15	AtKaaZ	~logs
13:15	clojurebot	logs is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
13:15	dnolen	jonasen: it will be supported in featurec
13:15	dnolen	mrb_bk: which paper?
13:15	mrb_bk	dnolen: Cheney & Urban
13:15	mrb_bk	oh!
13:15	mrb_bk	it's there
13:15	technomancy	biff_tannen: plugins and dependencies are separated by design
13:15	mrb_bk	dnolen: my bad
13:16	weavejester	biff_tannen: Indirectly, but it's best to add the dependency explicitly.
13:16	technomancy	biff_tannen: though it's possible for a plugin to affect the dependencies list if it thinks it needs to
13:16	dnolen	jonasen: so (featurec some-list [1 2 (rvar) 3 4]) or something like that
13:16	weavejester	You shouldn't rely on it pulling in ring-core, put it that way :)
13:16	dnolen	jonasen: where rvar will consume until 3 is encountered
13:16	ivaraasen	dnolen: nice blog post
13:17	dnolen	ivaraasen: thanks!
13:17	AtKaaZ	oops I realized where I fail: (sorted? (map? (sorted-map))) instead of (let [x (sorted-map)] (and (sorted? x) (map? x)))
13:18	dnolen	jonasen: there's probably some edge cases where around multiple possible matches, not sure if or even how to support that yet.
13:19	jonasen	dnolen: possible matches arise when you have several rvar's as in [(rvar) 1 (rvar)].
13:19	AtKaaZ	maybe (sorted? true) should yell if not being passed a coll, for lame ppl like me :)
13:19	jonasen	multiple, not possible
13:19	weavejester	technomancy: Is there any way of having a "profile.clj" on a per-project basis in Lein?
13:20	weavejester	As project.clj is typically in source control
13:20	weavejester	But sometimes you might want to override options without commiting them to the repo.
13:20	dnolen	jonasen: yep, so I'm not sure about that - whether supporting it is worth it without handling that case
13:20	technomancy	weavejester: yeah; profiles.clj =)
13:20	dnolen	those cases, really
13:21	jonasen	dnolen: But that shouldn't be a problem since core.logic already returns multiple results.. or am I missing something?
13:21	weavejester	technomancy: You mean if you have a "profiles.clj" in your repo directory it will allow you to override options in the project.clj file?
13:21	dnolen	jonasen: no it's a problem - constraints live in a different "world" so to speak
13:21	dnolen	they don't really participate in search - that is they never return multiple possibilities
13:21	technomancy	weavejester: yeah
13:21	AtKaaZ	what identifies as coll(ection) ? is it clojure.lang.ISeq ?
13:22	weavejester	technomancy: Ah, excellent. That makes an awful lot of sense.
13:22	AtKaaZ	oh it's coll? aka clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection
13:22	jonasen	dnolen: ok.
13:23	technomancy	weavejester: I think hugod added it
13:23	biff_tannen	thx technomancy weavejester
13:24	hugod	technomancy: I don't remember adding it - though I certainly use profiles.clj.
13:25	hugod	I tend to put all the dev time stuff in it and commit it as well though
13:25	technomancy	hugod: hmm... well I don't remember adding it myself.
13:26	technomancy	http://forums.weebls-stuff.com/images/smilies/Itisamystery.gif
13:26	mrb_bk	dnolen: does this look reasonable? https://gist.github.com/mrb/4740935
13:27	dnolen	mrb_bk: looks ok to me, do you need a conde because you're going to add other clauses?
13:28	mrb_bk	dnolen: ah yeah good point i left that in when this did more. thanks!
13:29	TimMc	hyPiRion: DId you follow what I meant about `[~@list]?
13:43	Frozenlock	Is there a way to temporarily cache result from a function? i.e If called within 10 sec, just return the same result.
13:44	technomancy	Frozenlock: easier to do for the scope of a binding than by a time window
13:44	TimMc	Check if core.cache has a memoizer that does that.
13:47	cemerick	lynaghk: have you looked at lein-dalap any? http://birdseyesoftware.github.com/lein-dalap.docs/
13:48	Frozenlock	TimMc: TTLCache sure looks promising :)
13:49	abp	cemerick: Have you? :)
13:50	cemerick	abp: reading now
13:52	cemerick	couple of practical bits that'll make it tough to dig into
13:52	cemerick	esp. enumerating source and target file paths
13:54	abp	cemerick: Hm ok.
13:56	lynaghk	cemerick: nah, I've never seen it
13:58	lynaghk	cemerick: looks like it was inspired by cljx, though. I guess they wanted form-by-form transforms, instead of just toplevel vars
13:59	hyPiRion	TimMc: `[~@list] generates a new list in O(n) time, yes
13:59	ln2	Trying to install https://github.com/fmw/vix
13:59	ln2	I get the following error. http://tny.cz/ad7dd9fa
14:00	ln2	In the "Execute the (add-user) function in order to add a user with full access privileges:" step. Any suggestions?
14:01	ln2	The entirety of google doesn't seem to have this error related specifically to vix. =(
14:01	lynaghk	cemerick: it kind of bugs me that there are two or three different things out there for this problem. I'm not sure if there is a Clojure-specific trend there or if it's just an emerging language or programmer thing in general
14:02	hyPiRion	TimMc: was that what you thought of?
14:02	technomancy	it's because people don't tell the irc channel before starting!
14:02	cemerick	lynaghk: trend, as in, multiple parallel solutions?
14:02	lynaghk	cemerick: e.g., every month someone releases a new hiccup library without really mentioning why something new is warrented
14:02	lynaghk	cemerick: yeah.
14:02	nDuff	There'll eventually be one solution that's canonical.
14:03	cemerick	well, it's early days
14:03	nDuff	...at least for the clj/cljs thing.
14:03	technomancy	lynaghk: validation libs =\
14:03	cemerick	as cool as cljx and kibit is, writing core.logic rules for portability purposes hurts
14:03	technomancy	it's the Curse of Lisp; it's easier to roll your own than to coordinate.
14:03	lynaghk	cemerick: yeah, sure. I'm definitely part of the problem on a few libraries though.
14:03	Frozenlock	Yeah, why don't people check clojure.org before starting a library! SHeesh
14:03	technomancy	Frozenlock: hehe
14:04	cemerick	all of these options will be blown up whenever feature expressions land
14:04	cemerick	lynaghk: I don't actually think it's a problem.
14:04	lynaghk	technomancy: that's true for lots of languages. When node.js first came out I was trying to use it for something and found like 20 JSON parsers.
14:04	hiredman	cemerick: is their any indication from rich that they will ever land?
14:04	cemerick	People want different stuff, bikeshed, and sometimes are just interested in the problem as an exercise.
14:04	technomancy	lynaghk: CL never grew out of it
14:05	hiredman	there
14:05	lynaghk	cemerick: it's not a problem if you have a few hours to github around. There definitely are benefits to Python's "batteries included" approach
14:05	hiredman	damn
14:05	technomancy	ruby had a phase where every other week there was a new testing framework because people liked playing with metaprogramming
14:05	p_l	technomancy: I think CL suffered more from the lack of code sharing and lack of good and easily available implementation
14:06	cemerick	hiredman: Not that I'm aware of, but a lot of people are lobbying.
14:06	ln2	Does anyone have any experience with Vix? https://github.com/fmw/vix
14:06	lynaghk	cemerick: sure, yeah. I totally get where they're coming from---my rant is mostly self-directed angst about the lack of such ecosystem-level documentation on my own projects =P
14:06	cemerick	lynaghk: eh; many of those batteries are traps
14:06	p_l	by the time it was easier to do so, it suffered from thousands of shitty tutorials written based on stuff from late 1970s ;)
14:07	lynaghk	cemerick: sure, but at least it forces people to consider the question---"this library X is a replacement for default library; unlike the default it does A, B, and C"
14:07	cemerick	The Clojure portability issue is going to haunt us nearly forever though, feature expressions or not.
14:08	nDuff	lynaghk: Look at Python's XML library situation.
14:08	devn	I have a feeling there's going to end up (whether people like it or not) being a couple of "default stacks" in clojure. Some will decide to go the "Sinatra" route, others will want a more "batteries included" approach.
14:08	lynaghk	cemerick: we tend to have a lot of announcements like "ANN: Awesome Library X 0.1.0. It does A"
14:08	Frozenlock	fwiw, shaunxcode made a summary of existing cljs libraries to help newcommers, and hopefully help avoid duplicates in libraries: https://github.com/shaunxcode/clojurescript-ecosystem/wiki/libraries
14:08	nDuff	lynaghk: You've got a whole bloody lot of them all there as included batteries, because they can't be removed without a lengthy deprecation process once they're in.
14:09	nDuff	lynaghk: ...and the only one's that actually _good_ (lxml) isn't even in there.
14:09	cemerick	lynaghk: time heals all :-)
14:09	cemerick	lynaghk: surely you can't be _so_ angsty already!? ;-)
14:09	lynaghk	Frozenlock: thanks for pointing that out
14:10	devn	lol
14:10	sirvaliance	How is the progress for clojure on android?
14:10	lynaghk	cemerick: I think I might just need to bite the bullet and start a blog where I set things straight =P
14:11	lynaghk	cemerick: and/or stir up trouble. The problem is that I prefer just shipping quietly.
14:11	hiredman	oy, you front end guys, endless drama
14:12	devn	sirvaliance: there's a clojure-android google group
14:12	hyPiRion	Oh, talking about multiple libraries and so forth: Is there a number theory library for Clojure?
14:12	lynaghk	hiredman: we're all troubled because what we make these days are hacks on hacks on hacks on top of a few backwards langugages =P
14:12	cemerick	I'm still at the stage where I generally don't bother looking for cljs libs. I don't even properly know what I need, even if it were right in front me.
14:13	devn	https://github.com/pierrel/clojumbertheory
14:13	devn	heh, 4 years old at this point
14:13	lynaghk	cemerick: you know what you do need? A ClojureScript-powered iPhone app to tell you the weather: http://weathertableapp.com/
14:13	cemerick	lynaghk: if only I had an iphone
14:13	cemerick	oh, I'll give it a roll on my wife's
14:14	lynaghk	cemerick: rad =)
14:14	sirvaliance	devn: Thanks, somehow I missed it
14:14	cemerick	lynaghk: your h1's are clipping horizontally
14:14	cemerick	FF 18
14:14	devn	sirvaliance: np
14:14	hyPiRion	devn: hehe. Well, I suppose it's reasonable to create a new library if the old one's unmantained and not forked.
14:14	lynaghk	cemerick: thanks, I'll forward to the OCD designer.
14:15	lynaghk	hyPiRion: hence all of the hiccup libraries...
14:15	TimMc	cemerick: Don't you know? Clipping is all the rage these days. http://alistapart.com/
14:15	cemerick	lynaghk: you're supposed to make it free, and then monetize via premium features! :-P
14:16	lynaghk	cemerick: "Don't want it to rain? Buy the rain-guard for $1.00 right now!"
14:16	cemerick	TimMc: hum :-/
14:16	devn	hyPiRion: my thought is that there's probably a java library you could wrap
14:16	TimMc	cemerick: I'm kidding, ALA got a lot of flak for that.
14:16	Frozenlock	TimMc: I don't know why, but the fact that I can't see the entire heading makes me mad.
14:16	cemerick	lynaghk: or, think of the affiliate income from showing ads from local bodegas when the storm is coming!
14:16	dnolen	lynaghk: nice
14:16	hyPiRion	devn: Think about the cljs-people.
14:16	hyPiRion	but yeah, I know, I know.
14:16	devn	hyPiRion: fair enough
14:17	lynaghk	dnolen: stuff got pretty gnarly in there, code-wise. E.g., it initially used EDN but deserializing 2kB took 8 seconds on the phone
14:17	devn	yeesh
14:17	dnolen	lynaghk: oof
14:17	TimMc	hyPiRion: It's more that (= list []) is a simpler way to write it.
14:17	hyPiRion	It's just that I've done quite a bit of Project Euler and made a couple of utility functions, all related to nuber theory.
14:17	lynaghk	dnolen: so we switched to JSON. The DOM walking was pretty slow, so I had to rip out C2 and use .-innerHTML gnarlyness
14:18	cemerick	lynaghk: do you not have JIT the way it's deployed?
14:18	jonasen	dnolen: A new clojurescript release would be nice as people are seeing warnings due to #455
14:18	clojurebot	ClojureScript is https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript
14:18	lynaghk	dnolen: interesting fact, though, JSON.parse takes an optional "reviver" function that is basically a postwalk function, so you can throw together an EDN-esque tagged literal system
14:18	devn	hyPiRion: yeah, i did euler problems so long ago in clojure that I never made a lib of them.
14:18	dnolen	lynaghk: I'm not surprised by switching to JSON, nor having to use .-innerHTML depending on what you're doing
14:19	devn	but everyone writes the same stuff. a library would be cool
14:19	lynaghk	cemerick: My understanding is that iOS doesn't allow JIT inside of embedded web views, which is how this app is deployed
14:19	dnolen	jonasen: yes, but it would be nice to confirm 418 first
14:19	hyPiRion	TimMc: I suppose it's okay since I know that all "lists" will be vectors? For a general-purpose algorithm that wouldn't hold.
14:19	cemerick	brutal
14:19	hyPiRion	e.g. (filter foo nil).
14:19	cemerick	lynaghk: but bookmarked/fullscreen sites would get the JIT?
14:19	lynaghk	dnolen: next cut of the app will probably be using Angular.js---I'm interested to see how well that performs and how much cleaner the code gets. Right now the architecture is a lil' state-machine with transitions that bang on the DOM.
14:19	dnolen	lynaghk: yeah JIT does make a big difference.
14:20	lynaghk	cemerick: yeah, if you are using Safari then stuff gets JIT'd (in my limited understanding)
14:20	fogus\|gone	dnolen: Is it a fair statement to say that conde unifies across parallel universes?
14:20	cemerick	Thank goodness I'm not targeting mobile yet.
14:20	lynaghk	cemerick: yeah, this was our first stab at a consumer-facing AppStore App.
14:21	lynaghk	cemerick: is your browser zoomed? That may be the cause of the clipping.
14:21	cemerick	lynaghk: nope
14:21	cemerick	do you want a screenshot?
14:21	lynaghk	cemerick: yeah, that'd be great. thanks
14:22	dnolen	`fogus: hmm, I don't really think of conde that way :) in my mind it's like a nicer version of disjunction in Prolog - but that doesn't sound as cool
14:22	devn	lynaghk: i think the slide animations in the weather app when selecting days seem a little wonky to me
14:22	`fogus	dnolen: I'm aiming for cool (and for comic book references ;p)
14:23	devn	the header (day of the week) seems to not be attached to the hourly view
14:23	devn	and changes at a slightly different rate
14:23	dnolen	`fogus: I do think of it as permitting the description of possible worlds.
14:24	`fogus	dnolen: I'll take it! Thanks
14:24	cemerick	lynaghk: http://twitpic.com/c1y85h
14:28	hiredman	"dnolen endorses copenhagen interpretation, physicists puzzled as kitchen table coder speaks out"
14:29	hiredman	my guess as to what fogus is writing
14:30	`fogus	hiredman: I like to think of it as the Infinite Crisis interpretation.
14:34	SurlyFrog	Is there a way to see the actual byte size of a data structure? I have a set in memory and I can get its `count`, but I'd actually like to know how much space it is really taking up.
14:35	hyPiRion	SurlyFrog: Oh, you're new to the JVM I see.
14:35	SurlyFrog	hyPiRion: yeppers...
14:36	mattmoss	What, Java doesn't have sizeof? j/k
14:37	hyPiRion	SurlyFrog: not sure if it's possible, to be honest. maybe with some profiler or debugger?
14:37	nDuff	YourKit can do it... kinda.
14:37	nDuff	To know a real value, you need to figure out what objects that structure holds the only references to
14:37	SurlyFrog	okay….I'll do some experimenting
14:38	ravster	hello all
14:39	SurlyFrog	I wish `time` gave you memory usage as well as execution time.
14:40	nDuff	Wouldn't be a very useful number.
14:40	nDuff	...not for Java-based programs, anyhow.
14:40	SurlyFrog	why not?
14:40	craigbro	it COULD be useful if you had nothing else going on, and you GCed before and after
14:40	nDuff	SurlyFrog: Because if you give a Java program more memory, it'll use it to be able to GC less frequently.
14:41	nDuff	SurlyFrog: so the peak memory it uses and how much memory you need for things that actually have references to them at any given time are completely unrelated.
14:41	SurlyFrog	Yep, I'm thinking along the lines of Common Lisp's `time` which gives you information about memory consed, garbage collection, etc.
14:42	SurlyFrog	I've just always found it helpful when I know I'm going to be processing and building up some big data structure
14:42	nDuff	Ahh -- I was thinking of the shell time builtin.
14:43	SurlyFrog	nDuff: yeah, that wouldn't be very helpful :-)
14:43	nDuff	...last time I used JRockit, though, it had some decent profiling tools that were free for use in non-production environments.
14:45	SurlyFrog	I think I'm fine. I've discovered that at default on my system, a set of a million vectors of two Longs each blows up but 750K of them seems fine. I don't expect to keep more than about 250K in memory at any one time, so I should be quite good to go.
14:46	hiredman	SurlyFrog: is that without or without fiddling with the jvm max heap?
14:46	hiredman	with
14:47	SurlyFrog	hiredman: without. That's just a plain `lein repl` and then sitting inside the emacs nrepl buffer.
14:47	bruceadams	SurlyFrog: if you can use Java serialization, a serialized object can be viewed as bytes--you can get a count of bytes.
14:48	hiredman	SurlyFrog: the default jvm max heap varies on different platforms, so you should explicitly set it for that kind of thing to make sure it is the same for your test env and your deployment
14:48	bruceadams	there is some overhead. the serialized object will often be larger than the real live object in memory.
14:48	SurlyFrog	hiredman: oh, good point. Thanks for that.
14:48	craigbro	well, it IS useful to have a cons measurement
14:48	craigbro	aka, how much consing did I doo
14:48	craigbro	regardless of wether it is reachable and GCed or not
14:49	hiredman	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4667483/how-is-the-default-java-heap-size-determined
14:49	SurlyFrog	bruceadams: thanks, I appreciate the idea re. serialization.
14:49	craigbro	the value of eveything, the cost of nothing...
14:49	SurlyFrog	:-)
14:50	craigbro	i earned the nickname Sir Cons Alot in my CL hacking days
14:50	SurlyFrog	craigbro: that's funny :-)
14:51	hyPiRion	craigbro: I'm probably worse. "If it's immutable, just call the function again with the same parameters!"
14:51	hyPiRion	/s/immutable/pure/
14:51	SurlyFrog	I've done a ton of embedded systems programming where I'm always concerned about memory usage (in fact, I'm doing a PIC24 project for a customer right now) so I'm just conditioned to worry about it.
14:52	OscarZ_	whats the best resource for checking out how the core functions work etc ?
14:52	hyPiRion	SurlyFrog: The JVM itself has a large memory footprint.
14:53	Frozenlock	SurlyFrog: I wonder how long it will take before MCUs to be replaced with something with more punch (kinda like Raspberry Pi)
14:53	hiredman	hyPiRion: that depends on what you mean by large
14:53	Frozenlock	Or rather, what we normally consider MCUs
14:53	SurlyFrog	Frozenlock: years if not decades. It's still a matter of price/power for many devices
14:54	craigbro	it's a range too
14:54	craigbro	more power lets tinkerers do more itneresting things
14:54	Frozenlock	^
14:54	craigbro	but finished commodity products are gonna shoot lower power and price
14:54	SurlyFrog	When you've got to dump a bunch of sensors in a field and let them run for 5-years on a coin cell battery, you really need an MCU. However, everything above that level will get pretty interesting.
14:54	Frozenlock	But more power also allow more easy code reuse IMO.
14:55	hyPiRion	hiredman: Microprocessor-large.
14:55	craigbro	code reuse is not a big win in those fields IMO
14:55	craigbro	your operations are trivial
14:55	craigbro	collect sensor data, munge it, convert it to simple wire protocol, send it upstream etc...
14:57	Frozenlock	craigbro: Depending on your field, you then have to encode the data into an industry protocol (Modbus, Lonwork, BACnet...), then send it over LAN/IP/Wireless. Possibly have local memory storage also... I would like to have more powerful devices :)
14:59	hiredman	there are "jvms" that run in around 32KiB but most of them are not "modern" (read post java 1.5) jvms
15:00	Frozenlock	hiredman: That seems... surreal
15:00	craigbro	picojava!
15:00	TimMc	hyPiRion: No, it works even if `list` is a list.
15:00	Frozenlock	clojure on MCUs?
15:01	craigbro	Frozenlock: yah, kinda what I meant as a tradeoff. On a project I was advising to build open source, cheapish sensor array for urban farming, we went with more powerful devices, because it meant a simpler networ infrastructure and code that a larger set of people could understand (and this was all run with volunteer labor so that was important)
15:02	TimMc	hyPiRion: ##(let [x (list 1 2 3)] [(= x [1 2 3]) (= `[~@x] [1 2 3])]) ;; What I'm saying is that it's a no-op.
15:02	lazybot	⇒ [true true]
15:02	`fogus	dnolen: Is it considered unindiomatico to use multiple bindings in the run* form?
15:02	craigbro	`fogus: can you even?
15:02	dnolen	`fogus: what do you mean? like (run* [a b c] ...) ?
15:02	craigbro	(run* [foo bar] does not work
15:02	dnolen	craigbro: it does
15:03	craigbro	???
15:03	lazybot	craigbro: How could that be wrong?
15:03	`fogus	dnolen: ya
15:03	craigbro	is that newish?
15:03	craigbro	sorry, ignore me
15:03	dnolen	craigbro: relatively
15:03	craigbro	ok, mind you I started on ancient core.logic 8^)
15:03	dnolen	`fogus: it's idiomatic yes, map support coming at some point as well
15:03	craigbro	BTW, we got our analysis engine running as an API server on our cluster this week.
15:04	`fogus	craigbro: https://gist.github.com/fogus/4741564
15:04	`fogus	dnolen: Wonderful. Thank you
15:04	dnolen	craigbro: `fogus: the fundamental form is now (-run option-map [bindings] goals)
15:04	craigbro	normanrichards wrote a little in memory DB for us, replacing defrel etc, that lets us have core.logic programs run against their own fact DB
15:04	dnolen	er
15:04	dnolen	should be
15:05	ttimvisher	anyone know how to output the result of a cascalog job back to hdfs?
15:05	dnolen	(-run option-map binding-form goals*), where binding-from can currently be a vector of names or a vector names + :as vector name
15:05	ttimvisher	we're trying to use `hfs-textline` and that does write the result of the query back to hdfs but in a strange directory format
15:05	craigbro	and thus in their own threads
15:05	dnolen	craigbro: sweet!
15:05	ttimvisher	we're basically trying to split apart a gigantic file into more manageable chunks to support iteration on our part.
15:06	`fogus	dnolen: With run* taking multiple forms is the use of fresh obviated?
15:06	`fogus	(binding forms)
15:06	dnolen	`fogus: no, you still need it in subgoals
15:06	craigbro	fresh is still useful
15:06	`fogus	dnolen: Duh. Of course
15:07	hyPiRion	TimMc: yeah, I know that. But not if it's nil. ##(= [] nil)
15:07	lazybot	⇒ false
15:07	craigbro	dnolen: yah, 8+ threads of core.logic malware behavior anlaysis fits easily inside a 4g heap and is fast enough our cluste can't keep it supplied with data (it has to un/rearchive all the mateirals etc...)
15:07	craigbro	err, I meant 80+ threads
15:07	craigbro	I would guess 50 or so of them are actually doing the core.logic work
15:08	dnolen	craigbro: whoa
15:09	dnolen	craigbro: you gonna talk about that at Clojure/West?
15:09	craigbro	we got 64core blades, a dozen or so of them, each of them doing this
15:09	craigbro	dnolen: I was going to focus more on how we do our data modeling in core.logic
15:10	craigbro	dnolen: aka, we have a relational model for representing malware observable (files touched, sockets opened, etc...)
15:10	craigbro	dnolen: and then the same model is used by core.logic to identify behavior/patterns/indicators of compromise
15:10	craigbro	dnolen: but is also pretty much directly translated into SQL DDL for our database
15:10	dnolen	craigbro: that is amazing
15:11	craigbro	dnolen: and then we use korma to query the DB for our analysts UI and all that.
15:11	craigbro	hence the title, core.logic and SQL killed my ORM
15:12	craigbro	kewl thing is, I wrote like three example core.logic programs for our malware analysts
15:12	craigbro	and they have written the rest
15:12	dnolen	wowzers
15:12	craigbro	mind you, they are a little shakey, abuse conde etc...
15:13	dnolen	heh sure
15:13	craigbro	next step is to put a shim language in there for end users to write programs
15:13	dnolen	still need to optimize conde at some point ...
15:13	craigbro	actually, in almost all cases, they should be using conda
15:13	dnolen	craigbro: well optimized conde could obviate conda
15:13	craigbro	so it's not a big deal. these programs are basically just pattern matching
15:13	dnolen	in the pattern matching case
15:14	TimMc	hyPiRion: Ah! I see.
15:14	craigbro	hmm, maybe I misunderstand the difference between conda and conde then
15:14	llasram	craigbro: Are you one of the threatgrid peeps?
15:14	craigbro	I thought conda stopped on first match
15:14	craigbro	llasram: yup
15:14	dnolen	craigbro: sorry, that's what I mean about optimized conde
15:14	hiredman	craigbro: which is sort of optimized behaviour if you know other branches in code won't happen
15:14	dnolen	if the heads of the conde clauses have a common pattern we could use that information to know there's only one match
15:15	craigbro	well, we use it for stuff like filling in variables that couldn't be bound
15:15	craigbro	(conda ((somegoalthatwouldbind LVAR)) (== LVAR "Unknown"))
15:15	craigbro	well, that last form needs more parens, but you get it
15:15	dnolen	craigbro: i see
15:16	craigbro	the more intensive work is actually not the pattern matching
15:16	craigbro	but report generation, we make a very nice HTML report, all core.lgic driven. you prolly seen Tim hacking on it 8^)
15:16	dnolen	craigbro: hehe yes
15:16	craigbro	that takes way more time, most of it putting strings together in hiccup
15:17	craigbro	also, turns out that defrel indexing doesn't buy a whole lot, at least with our data
15:17	dnolen	craigbro: well defrel was lil ol hack, current implementation leaves much to be desired.
15:18	craigbro	I meant hat in the general sense tho, not just defrel
15:18	dnolen	craigbro: gotcha
15:18	craigbro	pldb without indexing is just a smidgin slower, totally drowned out by other noise
15:20	normanrichards	craigbro I guess our datasets would have to get MUCH bigger, and the logic much more complex to really gain from indexing
15:20	craigbro	yah, I was just going to try and get a measure of num of observations per sample
15:21	dnolen	craigbro: definitely looking forward to your talk at Clojure/West, this stuff sounds awesome.
15:21	normanrichards	craigbro and the nature of the logic prunes the search tree pretty gast
15:21	normanrichards	fast
15:23	dnolen	normanrichards: craigbro: oh ... wow I didn't realize you all did this https://github.com/threatgrid/pldb
15:23	normanrichards	dnolen https://github.com/orb/pldb/tree/indexing
15:23	normanrichards	that's the branch with indexing
15:23	normanrichards	not really much there
15:23	normanrichards	but it works well
15:24	craigbro	yah, it's what lets use run in multiple threads
15:25	craigbro	against different DBs
15:30	dnolen	normanrichards: craigbro: I wouldn't be against replacing what core.logic has with what you all have :)
15:31	jonasen	dnolen: I'd like to help out testing cljs-418. Should it be tested via cljsbuild or directly via script/bootstrap etc. as per the clojurescript wiki
15:31	dnolen	jonasen: thanks, doesn't matter really, either works.
15:32	jonasen	ok
15:32	normanrichards	dnolen it needs to be cleaned up a bit (the indexing in particular is hacky) but I'm pretty sure we'd be happy to contribute
15:33	dnolen	normanrichards: awesome! would remove an eyesore :)
15:34	craigbro	dnolen: yah, totally, I have a CA already, and norman can get one if he doesn't
16:01	gfredericks	Are there any libs that wrap compojure with the assumption that input/output are always JSON?
16:05	jeremyheiler	gfredericks, couldn't you just add middleware that makes that assumption?
16:07	ttimvisher	gfredericks: ymmv, but i've been interested in trying https://github.com/ngrunwald/ring-middleware-format for awhile
16:12	gfredericks	jeremyheiler: no
16:12	gfredericks	because compojure will interpret maps returned from routes as a ring response
16:13	gfredericks	unless there's a thinner alternative to defroutes that I didn't know about
16:14	amalloy	gfredericks: just...wrap the routes?
16:14	amalloy	the output half is easy; input is trickier
16:16	craigbro	not sure whatis means for inputs to always be json
16:16	craigbro	that are so many different ways for input to arrive
16:16	craigbro	as query params, as POST form data, and multipart post etc...
16:18	octagon	hi, i'm trying to find out how the ClojureScript compiler expands certain macros. without macroexpand in the REPL how would one go about doing this?
16:19	amalloy	octagon: it's the same macroexpand rules that clojure uses, so test it in a clj repl, not a cljs repl
16:20	octagon	amalloy: for example, (walk/macroexpand-all (case x "foo" bar)) expands to (let* [G__234 x] (case* ...)) in clj
16:21	octagon	amalloy: cljs has no case* special form
16:21	amalloy	ah. i guess i'd just look at the source for case, then, in cljs
16:21	octagon	amalloy: also cljs has its own macroexpand-1
16:21	Raynes	$latest ring-middleware-format
16:21	amalloy	but i think it probably expands to cond :P
16:21	lazybot	[ring-middleware-format "0.2.4"] -- https://clojars.org/ring-middleware-format
16:22	octagon	amalloy: it does, from reading the code. but where is cond defined? it's not in the list of special forms in the cljs compiler, but i can't find anywhere where it's defined
16:23	gfredericks	amalloy: output is easy? I don't think that's true
16:23	octagon	amalloy: also it's a more general question. seeing what a thing expands to is way more reliable than trying to run a macro expander in your head lol
16:23	amalloy	octagon: the import-macros line in src/clj/cljs/core.clj
16:23	amalloy	is where cond comes from
16:23	octagon	amalloy: excellent, thanks!
16:24	gfredericks	amalloy: if I return {:foo [1 2 3]} from my route, then when it comes out of the defroutes handler it becomes
16:24	gfredericks	{:foo [1 2 3], :status 200, :headers {}, :body ""}
16:25	amalloy	gfredericks: what? i don't believe that. not only have i never noticed that, the source for defroutes (https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/blob/master/src/compojure/core.clj) clearly has no code for doing that
16:26	amalloy	GET and POST might do something crazy like that, but defroutes certainly doesn't
16:26	aaelony	clojure.xml/parse parses and loads a source, which can be a File, InputStream, or String naming a URI. In my case, I have a URI that needs an extra header where I can provide an access key as a header. Can specify a header that clojure.xml/parse can use or do I need something else?
16:26	gfredericks	amalloy: I just did it
16:27	amalloy	gfredericks: paste?
16:27	gfredericks	amalloy: https://gist.github.com/fredericksgary/4742078
16:27	gfredericks	oh I see what you mean by GET and POST
16:28	amalloy	gfredericks: GET is doing that
16:28	gfredericks	I didn't know they acted separately
16:28	amalloy	it's in compile-route, which calls render
16:28	gfredericks	how do I use defroutes by itself?
16:28	amalloy	gfredericks: (defroutes a b c) is just (fn [r] (or (a r) (b r) (c r)))
16:28	gfredericks	fascinating
16:28	amalloy	or rather, that's (routes a b c)
16:29	gfredericks	okay so would only have to provide an alternative to GET/POST/etc, and figure out what I mean by "JSON-only input"
16:29	amalloy	yes
16:29	amalloy	or re-extend the render protocol
16:30	amalloy	which might or might not work; don't quote me
16:31	amalloy	go tell weavejester you thought defroutes was magic. he already regrets writing it, because it just looks so magic
16:32	hiredman	or you could return {:body {:foo bar}} and have a middleware that json encodes body on the way out
16:32	gfredericks	I'm already doing (return-json {:foo bar}) which is about the same amount of work
16:32	gfredericks	this is at least the third time I've set up a json rest API and it's feeling like there's similar ceremony around it each time
16:33	tomoj	https://www.refheap.com/paste/43476cfab0a829957d6e1967f
16:33	amalloy	gfredericks: you could try wakeful
16:33	gfredericks	oh that might make sense
16:33	amalloy	if what you want is a json api that magically exposes functions in a certain namespace, that's basically what wakeful is
16:33	tomoj	I thought defroutes was magic
16:33	amalloy	(inc defroutes)
16:33	lazybot	⇒ 1
16:34	amalloy	all hail defroutes
16:34	tomoj	GET is magic
16:34	llasram	I've used bishop for a few small JSON-exposed service APIs, and been quite happy with it
16:34	gfredericks	is defroutes just some-fn?
16:34	trof	hi guys is this room ok for clojure noobs or theres another room?
16:34	gfredericks	trof: 100% okay
16:34	trof	thx
16:35	amalloy	yeah, GET is prettyheavy
16:35	amalloy	gfredericks: probably
16:35	gfredericks	oh some-fn + def
16:38	technomancy	llasram: does bishop cover vaguely the same use case as liberator?
16:39	gfredericks	amalloy: I'm trying to get over the fact that wakeful uses thing-id instead of thing/id
16:39	llasram	technomancy: Looks like it. I missed liberator -- will need to check it out and compare
16:40	technomancy	llasram: just wondering because someone asked last night at the seajure meeting
16:40	technomancy	I've felt like raw compojure doesn't have much to help with varying content-accepts headers
16:40	technomancy	probably by design
16:44	Frozenlock	I see that some libraries provide docstring for the namespace itself. Is that expected?
16:44	technomancy	Frozenlock: it's a good idea if the namespace isn't obvious at a glance
16:45	Frozenlock	technomancy: (ns robert.hooke "Hooke your functions! ... :D
16:46	gfredericks	is there yet a repl function for pretty-printing a whole namespace with the public vars and docstrings?
16:46	Frozenlock	But how does that reflect for the user? In the repl you 'doc' a namespace?
16:47	amalloy	gfredericks: (clojure.java.shell/sh "cat" filename)?
16:47	gfredericks	if I had such a function I could use it on clojure.repl to check if such a function existed there
16:47	gfredericks	amalloy: without the source code
16:48	gfredericks	anytime I want to explore what a namespace has in it the easiest thing I can think of is browsing to github
16:48	amalloy	gfredericks: (doseq [... (ns-publics ...)] ...)?
16:48	gfredericks	because it's easier than typing all that out :)
16:48	amalloy	someone wrote that and called it dir, apparently in homage to python
16:48	gfredericks	I should send a patch to clojure.repl
16:48	amalloy	dunno where it is, but maybe the name will help you find it
16:49	xeqi	does anyone know who maintains incanter?
16:49	gfredericks	oh apparently this is already in clojure.repl
16:49	amalloy	gfredericks: ...
16:49	technomancy	xeqi: the london clojure group, I think?
16:49	hiredman	xeqi: who says anyone does?
16:49	Frozenlock	gfredericks: do tell
16:49	gfredericks	amalloy: oh nevermind it just prints the var names
16:52	Frozenlock	,(doc (ffirst (ns-publics 'clojure.core)))
16:52	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol>
16:52	Frozenlock	Damn you macro!
16:53	ToBeReplaced	gfredericks: i think we've all asked for that at some point; so it going into clojure.repl makes sense to me
16:54	callenbot	technomancy: I need a favor of you.
16:55	callenbot	technomancy: I'm creating a tutorial for web dev in Clojure. I'd like to point the noobies in the direction of emacs-starter-kit. Paredit is a deal breaker. How do I bribe you into removing it?
16:55	ivaraasen	wow, the JVM is quite good at saving cycles wrt. primitives
16:56	ToBeReplaced	i don't know how anyone uses emacs without paredit...
16:56	technomancy	callenbot: I don't really actively recommend the use of the starter kit anymore as anything other than a resource to steal ideas from, but if they're in a hurry installing the starter-kit base package without starter-kit-lisp will do it I believe.
16:56	ToBeReplaced	technomancy: what do you think about prelude?
16:57	callenbot	technomancy: I need something like Clojure in a Box. Is it safe to say I am making this myself?
16:57	technomancy	ToBeReplaced: I think orthogonal functionality should be distributed as independent packages, and we should focus on documenting which packages do what.
16:57	ToBeReplaced	callenbot: i think bbatsov's prelude gets you clojure in a box
16:58	technomancy	callenbot: if you do it, try to structure it in terms of composing orthogonal parts and be clear about what functionality comes from where.
16:58	callenbot	ToBeReplaced: it needs to be fully automagic, this isn't for me, it's for the derpy new people.
16:58	technomancy	that's where the greatest confusion around the starter kit and similar packages comes from
16:58	callenbot	technomancy: I'm a nihilist, I only care about them seeing a repl in a project.
16:58	technomancy	callenbot: designing for derpy new people is what gets you sweet-expressions =\
16:59	ToBeReplaced	callenbot: i think prelude is... it's down to a curl-installer-script
16:59	callenbot	technomancy: we need to make onboarding easier/smoother
16:59	callenbot	technomancy: I want more normal people using Clojure so I can use it for a living.
16:59	craigbro	what do you do for a living?
17:00	hiredman	optimizing for newbies is a losing game
17:00	callenbot	craigbro: I practice interpretive dance.
17:00	technomancy	callenbot: are they people who would balk at using eclipse?
17:00	callenbot	craigbro: I use Clojure to do the audio and video programming for the dance presentations at the theatre.
17:00	ToBeReplaced	technomancy: while i generally agree re: orthogonal functionality, libraries over frameworks etc, i think that for many people, an editor isn't in the space of things worth doing that for
17:00	Frozenlock	gfredericks: If you haven't already what you wanted https://www.refheap.com/paste/11078
17:00	callenbot	technomancy: I don't know that yet.
17:01	craigbro	callenbot: oooohhhhhh
17:01	technomancy	ToBeReplaced: if you think Emacs is just an editor, sure
17:01	craigbro	callenbot: awesome!
17:01	technomancy	some people use it that way
17:01	callenbot	craigbro: I was being a smart ass.
17:01	hiredman	"hey, I am investing all this time and effort in to making a thing people will abandon after two weeks of use"
17:01	callenbot	craigbro: I write code for a living.
17:01	craigbro	callenbot: oh, booooooooring.
17:01	callenbot	craigbro: rule 1: never believe anything I say
17:01	pjstadig	hiredman: ever the optimist
17:01	ToBeReplaced	technomancy: yes; i think it is for many people, and especially the newbie target audience
17:02	callenbot	I don't know how to get instant feedback in Eclipse, only in Emacs.
17:02	callenbot	I need that instant feedback loop for the newbcakes.
17:02	ToBeReplaced	technomancy: if you advice against the starter kit, do you think putting a note in it would be worthwhile?
17:02	technomancy	ToBeReplaced: I don't pretend to understand the newbie audience, but telling them to learn Emacs and Clojure at the same time is asking an awful lot. Eclipse has much better affordances for new learners.
17:02	callenbot	technomancy: I agree.
17:03	octagon	i set my boss up with clojure in eclipse in about 10 minutes and he was writing code on his own with a book in 20 min
17:03	callenbot	technomancy: but I don't know eclipse and can't help them if they're using CCL
17:03	hiredman	^-
17:03	callenbot	technomancy: and I'm not going to use CCL in a tutorial.
17:03	technomancy	ToBeReplaced: maybe... I haven't decided strongly enough to commit to it
17:03	callenbot	octagon: CCL?
17:03	callenbot	I'd better check out CCL and get familiar with it then.
17:03	octagon	callenbot: counter-clockwise
17:03	callenbot	octagon: I know what it means, I was asking if he used it.
17:03	ivaraasen	technomancy: starter-kit was of great use to me as a newbie
17:03	octagon	callenbot: yes, i wasn't sure what CCL meant, but yes, that's what i set him up with
17:04	callenbot	octagon: I'll check it out. I now have the problem of potentially using a different editor in a video tutorial than the student.
17:04	octagon	callenbot: he still uses it, but he has another repl in a terminal too
17:05	technomancy	ivaraasen: I wish it could just disappear, but the problem is it's very difficult to fix bad defaults in the core of Emacs itself. political reasons and all.
17:05	octagon	callenbot: he runs a second repl in a screen session or something
17:05	ToBeReplaced	technomancy: tough problem... i think if you do think about it more, placing a note about it, whichever way you fall, would be helpful
17:05	callenbot	I'm 500 commits away from catching up with isaacs. I have to beat him.
17:06	Frozenlock	technomancy: bad default? The white background?
17:06	technomancy	callenbot: I agree that one of the most difficult things about teaching newbies is putting yourself in their mindset.
17:06	technomancy	maybe using eclipse would put you in a state of disorientation where you could empathise with them better =)
17:06	callenbot	technomancy: I'm a fucking idiot, I can handle bringing myself down to that.
17:06	craigbro	hehe
17:06	technomancy	Frozenlock: ido off by default, no uniquify, menu bar and tool bar; stuff like that.
17:06	callenbot	technomancy: being an idiot is why I give excellent copy and UX feedback too. Everything confuses me.
17:07	octagon	honestly if someone can't do some examples in eclipse with CCL then they aren't going to like clojure at all anyway
17:07	hiredman	wrong, the miss difficult thing about teaching newbies is getting them to shutup and read the stacktraces
17:07	technomancy	callenbot: it's valuable! =D
17:07	hiredman	most
17:07	callenbot	technomancy: I just need to explain to my employer why being a simpleton is valuable now.
17:07	Frozenlock	eh, I actually believed the menu bar was newbie friendly :/
17:07	Frozenlock	but I agree that ido should be enabled by default
17:07	callenbot	technomancy: also I was talking to my best friend who moved to California after I did. The both of us are probably moving to WA / SeaTac.
17:07	hiredman	closely followed by reading the docs
17:08	callenbot	technomancy: we were doing a bunch of cost of living, legal research etc. We're pretty keen on WA now.
17:08	craigbro	I used to work ona programming language targetting 6th grades and up, to graduate students (the real dummies) NetLogo
17:08	callenbot	I'll visit the moment I get some actual free time.
17:08	technomancy	Frozenlock: seeing a menu bar makes people think they can use it to find everything they need, which is silly. it sets unsound expectations.
17:08	technomancy	callenbot: cool; hope it works out =)
17:08	ToBeReplaced	hiredman: i even had that in python... "TypeError: foo is not a string"... "ToBeReplaced, why isn't this working?..." ... "Well, have you considered that foo might not be a string?"... "OMG you're so good at debugging"
17:08	callenbot	technomancy: yeah it's all early stage now but I'm pretty excited.
17:09	hiredman	it is a fact
17:09	hiredman	programming is 90% reading
17:09	craigbro	hehe
17:09	octagon	you can't trick people into liking clojure via a text editor
17:09	octagon	people aren't that dumb
17:10	callenbot	octagon: who suggested that was possible?
17:10	octagon	callenbot: the fascination with tools
17:10	octagon	it's inappropriate for new guys i think
17:10	technomancy	octagon: I think he's saying "if you use this; I can help you myself"
17:11	octagon	technomancy: i'm just pointing out that sometimes this tooling fetish isn't appropriate for new guys, cause they just want to see what you have to offer, not some cool tools
17:12	callenbot	navigating this code is like trying to make an hourglass out of sand somebody tossed into the wind.
17:12	callenbot	octagon: I'm just trying to avoid confusion arising from disparity in environment.
17:12	callenbot	octagon: I'm currently writing and thinking about doing video tutorials.
17:12	callenbot	octagon: I'll use whatever's necessary to make the tutorials effective, but I have to balance my productivity against what's going to be facile.
17:13	ToBeReplaced	dommy, froelich, domicile, domina, crate, hiccups, piccups ... yikes
17:13	callenbot	ToBeReplaced: what's wrong?
17:14	technomancy	"Use what you want, but be advised that I'll be able to offer more effective help if you use X." is how I read it.
17:15	ToBeReplaced	just a lot of related functionality... i guess domina doesn't belong on there... the rest seem all very similar, with at least 4 of them supporting the same hiccup-styled templates
17:15	ToBeReplaced	maybe i just don't understand them... particularly dommy vs. crate
17:15	callenbot	ToBeReplaced: dommy is fast.
17:16	callenbot	ToBeReplaced: crate is not.
17:16	callenbot	ignore hiccups and piccups.
17:16	callenbot	I can't speak to domicile and froelich.
17:16	zerokarmaleft	package-list
17:16	ToBeReplaced	then why have both? is there something crate is better suited for?
17:16	zerokarmaleft	oops
17:16	dnolen	ToBeReplaced: crate appeared very early on, dommy was released like a week ago
17:16	callenbot	ToBeReplaced: it existed before dommy
17:16	Frozenlock	Crate was quickly hacked together way before.
17:16	callenbot	ToBeReplaced: dommy was created because crate was slow.
17:16	craigbro	that reminds me
17:16	craigbro	so, is there something like hiccup that is faster
17:17	craigbro	preferably drop in replacement?
17:17	craigbro	or has there been a speedup in hiccup releases in the last couple months?
17:17	Frozenlock	craigbro: You mean for the jvm?
17:17	mrb_bk	shout out to all the nerds in NYC who will be trapped indoors tonight
17:17	craigbro	yah
17:18	ToBeReplaced	so dommy is the way of the future? they both have commits in the last month, heh
17:18	callenbot	mrb_bk: hello, it's sunny, blue skies, and pleasant here in California. I think I might go for a motorcycle ride and taunt you.
17:19	technomancy	it's even sunny in seattle today
17:19	ivaraasen	Prismatic are releasing some great stuff
17:19	tmciver	2 feet of snow by tomorrow in Boston.
17:19	callenbot	ivaraasen: I love the prizzies.
17:19	ivaraasen	supposedly they are releasing Flop soon.
17:19	technomancy	ivaraasen: maybe it's to make up for all the libs they pulled?
17:19	callenbot	ivaraasen: crazy little phids.
17:19	callenbot	ivaraasen: that would be nice.
17:20	ivaraasen	callenbot: at least they told me so on Twitter, FWIW
17:20	callenbot	technomancy: oh so I'm not crazy, they used to have more libraries on their github?
17:20	callenbot	technomancy: or do you refer to something else?
17:20	technomancy	callenbot: yeah, they yoinked a bunch a while back when they went into super secret stealth mode or something
17:22	ivaraasen	technomancy: yeah, they announced Flop like, 5 months ago? so I just wrote my own Flop clone instead
17:23	danielglauser	Does anyone know a generic way to get the name of the current function?
17:23	hiredman	technomancy: no no, that was a "totally different" company with a name that started with a w
17:23	Frozenlock	ivaraasen: my google-fu is failing me... flop?
17:23	hiredman	functions do not inherently have names
17:23	technomancy	hiredman: how silly of me
17:23	hiredman	so there is no way
17:24	hiredman	functions like other values can be bound to names, but imagine asking the question of other values
17:24	tanzoniteblack	Frozenlock: http://highscalability.com/blog/2012/7/30/prismatic-architecture-using-machine-learning-on-social-netw.html has a quote about what flop is supposed to be
17:24	hiredman	Does anyone know a generic way to get the name of a vector?
17:25	hiredman	danielglauser: what do you want a name for?
17:25	danielglauser	I believe it is in the metadata of the Var, but I don't know how to get the name of the Var without already knowing the name
17:25	ivaraasen	Frozenlock: basically macros that makes it nicer to work with primitive double arrays
17:25	craigbro	hehe
17:25	Frozenlock	ivaraasen: yeah sure, said like that that's super simple... :P
17:26	ivaraasen	Frozenlock: instead of (areduce ^doubles ws idx ret (double . . . MY BRAIN IS MELTING, you just write (asum ws)
17:26	ivaraasen	or for the dot-product, (asum [w ws x xs] (* w x))
17:26	hiredman	danielglauser: what do you want a name for?
17:27	craigbro	danielglauser: there is not guanrateed to be a name BTW
17:27	danielglauser	hiredman: We've factored some of the repetitive test code into helper functions. When it goes boom in the helper function we don't know where the call came from
17:27	craigbro	danielglauser: haha
17:27	danielglauser	craigbro: Ah! Thx
17:27	hiredman	danielglauser: look at the stacktrace?
17:27	craigbro	danielglauser: throw an error, catch it, grep thru the stacktrace 8)
17:27	ivaraasen	Frozenlock: also somewhat easy to do stuff like in-place map (afill!)
17:28	danielglauser	No stack trace but I could throw an exception
17:28	craigbro	not guaranteed to get anything euseful there either
17:28	hiredman	danielglauser: if look at some other tests that do that kind of thing we pass an error message to the helper
17:28	danielglauser	Failing in an is call so that will be somewhat cludgy
17:28	hiredman	(is assertion error-message)
17:29	hiredman	when assertion fails is also prints out error-message
17:29	danielglauser	hiredman: Yup! Was trying to pass a context in, that's what prompted my original question
17:29	danielglauser	hiredman: Doing that now but still don't know who the caller was
17:30	hiredman	danielglauser: you want to take this sonian channels?
17:32	Bronsa	danielglauser: (-> (Throwable.) .getStackTrace first str (clojure.string/split #"\.invoke") first (clojure.string/replace "$" "/"))
17:32	Bronsa	this should do it
17:32	danielglauser	Bronsa: Awesome, thanks, I'll give that a try
17:33	icey	Anyone here use datomic in their projects?
17:39	nickmbailey	is there a way to tell lein to automatically use a certain profile with a certain task. for example use a specific profile with 'lein test'
17:42	technomancy	nickmbailey: you should be able to alias the task to ["with-profile" "+myprofile" "task"] but there may be a bug preventing that
17:42	nickmbailey	unix alias?
17:43	technomancy	nickmbailey: :aliases {"test" [...]} in project.clj
17:43	nickmbailey	aha!
17:43	Frozenlock	technomancy: Regarding hooks: "Then users can place files that call add-hook under a specific namespace prefix (my.program.hooks.*)" Does it mean that the user don't need to require their own file, as long as it's in the project directory?
17:43	Frozenlock	s/user/users
17:44	technomancy	Frozenlock: I think it's only auto-activated from within plugins?
17:46	Frozenlock	Ah I see, so somehow the plugin must be loaded by the main 'project' before it can do anything.
17:47	Frozenlock	I'll go check leiningen for insight, thanks!
17:55	nickmbailey	technomancy: doesn't seem to be any bugs, except that the aliases are recursive
17:55	nickmbailey	i'm not sure if thats a bug or expected
17:56	technomancy	yeah, that's the bug
17:56	technomancy	the alias is supposed to remove itself upon use
17:56	nickmbailey	gotcha
17:57	ravster	hello all
18:03	Frozenlock	ravster: hello you
18:10	Frozenlock	Any obvious setbacks to loading every .clj file in a 'plugin' directory?
18:23	callenbot	people, it's friday! TO THE LEFT: <( " <) <( " <) <( " <) PUTCHA HANDS UP: (^"^) (^"^) (^"^) AND GET DOOOOWN: (v' 'v) (v' 'v) (v' 'v)
18:25	ravster	callenbot: :)
18:26	ravster	cemerick: I'm printing out a request that I'm running through peridot, and friend-auth stuff isn't in the :session key but is seperate. how does friend work through sessions?
18:30	cemerick	ravster: the friend identity is always in the session map under :cemerick.friend/identity
18:35	xeqi	ravster: what do you think of peridot?
18:41	ravster	xeqi: its good. we're using it to automate integration tests through our api.
18:42	ravster	I've probably not explored all of it, but its great for mimicking user interactions.
18:43	Frozenlock	Oh compojure, why are you so magic?
18:43	Frozenlock	Magic as in "ahhh what is happening"
18:48	weavejester	Frozenlock: What do you think is magic?
18:49	hyPiRion	The source is out there.
18:49	Frozenlock	hyPiRion: Reading now
18:49	Frozenlock	weavejester: Might be a lack of webdev knowledge, I have to wrap my head around the route thing.
18:50	weavejester	Frozenlock: Have you seen: http://www.booleanknot.com/blog/2012/09/18/routing-in-compojure.html ?
18:51	Frozenlock	No I did not, but I'll read it immediately, thanks :)
18:51	Frozenlock	Sure has a promising title "Understanding Routing in Compojure"
19:00	thearthur	I'm trying to help a coworker set up lein2 + nrepl
19:01	thearthur	when she runs nrepl-jack-in the nrepl buffer opens with out th nrepl prompt
19:01	thearthur	any idea what to google for on this
19:01	thearthur	nrepl 1.6
19:01	thearthur	errr 0.1.6
19:01	technomancy	thearthur: emacs 24?
19:01	thearthur	yes,
19:02	thearthur	24.2
19:02	technomancy	thearthur: any fancy additions like auto-complete?
19:03	thearthur	we removed all packages and then added clojure-mode and nrepl
19:03	thearthur	added as packages from marmalade
19:03	technomancy	very strange
19:06	thearthur	technomancy: not all the fancy stuff had been properly removed ...
19:09	thearthur	technomancy: the culprite was (add-hook 'nrepl-mode-hook 'paredit-mode)
19:10	yves`	test
19:12	Frozenlock	test failed with 2 errors
19:12	yves`	Frozenlock: ^^
19:39	cola_zero	thearthur: Can emacs connect to runnning repl server?
19:41	gfredericks	so the latest lein-cljsbuild still has the namespace-out-of-order bug even though cljs had it fixed months og?
19:41	gfredericks	s/og/ago/
19:47	dnolen	gfredericks: it wasn't that long ago, but I thought I fixed it. Perhaps it was more subtle than I thought.
19:48	tanzoniteblack	cola_zero: this is generally done with nrepl
19:48	tanzoniteblack	cola_zero: an emacs mode
19:51	gfredericks	dnolen: has cljsbuild been keeping up to date?
19:52	ravster	xeqi: when doing multiple requests in peridot, can I set content-type only once, or do I have to do it for each request sent out?
19:53	callenbot	I found lein-cljsbuild to be a good manifestation of the Vietnam War.
19:53	callenbot	I cut and ran pretty quickly.
19:53	warz	is there a popular clojure irc client to build on? i see a few that just wrap java clients.
19:55	cola_zero	tanzoniteblack: yas, I know. I want to know whether 'M-x nrepl' is working or not.
19:56	dnolen	gfredericks: I would assume so but you would need to ask emezeske. If if didn't you could use master or override to specific version.
19:56	tanzoniteblack	cola_zero: guess I don't understand your question then, sorry. That's how I connect to a running repl.
19:56	dnolen	callenbot: it has some rough edges, but it's also come a long way.
19:57	callenbot	dnolen: oh so you've visited Vietnam recently too? yeah it's really improved.
19:57	dnolen	gfredericks: I mean even if it wasn't pulling a more recent CLJS I mean.
19:57	dnolen	callenbot: eye roll
19:57	gfredericks	dnolen: right
19:58	callenbot	dnolen: I tell a lot of people about CLJS. Frontenders, switchers, all kinds.
19:58	callenbot	dnolen: the conversation ends the moment they ask about source maps.
19:58	callenbot	dnolen: I can't keep bumping the project if SM aren't in place.
19:59	cola_zero	tanzoniteblack: I asked to thearthur because he has strange behavior of nrepl-jack-in.
20:00	dnolen	callenbot: yes SM will be a big step forward. though I hardly think that will convince everyone.
20:01	callenbot	dnolen: it'll convince the people I know.
20:01	callenbot	dnolen: but then again, I don't restrict my social circles to the coding avant-garde.
20:01	dnolen	callenbot: sure, it will happen one day.
20:01	callenbot	dnolen: FYI, one of those people I tried to sell ended up going to TypeScript.
20:01	dnolen	in the not too distant future.
20:01	dnolen	callenbot: more power to them
20:02	xeqi	ravster: you should be able to do (-> (session ..) (content-type "application/json") (visit ...) (visit ...))
20:03	tanzoniteblack	cola_zero: I didn't even notice that was a directed question...I'll just go back to not paying attention. I think thearthur fixed the issue though, something about paredit-hook causing an issue
20:03	ravster	xeqi: sweet, tnx
20:03	xeqi	s/visit/request/g
20:04	cola_zero	tanzoniteblack: ah, sorry.
20:04	xeqi	ravster: glad to hear its working well for you (just got back from dinner and saw message). let me know if yo urun into any problems
20:04	callenbot	dnolen: not really. Clojure needs a dons.
20:05	callenbot	dnolen: too many modest Clojure Hackers. we need more douchebags telling people how ridiculous awesome we are.
20:05	callenbot	I, for one, would like to be able to use Clojure in my day job.
20:05	dnolen	callenbot: I don't see why. Clojure has got along fine w/o too many of those so far.
20:05	callenbot	dnolen: not everybody gets to be uber-choosy in their technologies in the context of employment
20:06	callenbot	dnolen: the best way to help the 99% and make it more likely Clojure will be an allowed option, it has to spread.
20:06	thearthur	cola_zero: sorry for the late response, no the behaviour was the same in both cases. turned out to be because of a broken call to add-hook in her init.el
20:07	callenbot	dnolen: but it's great that you work in an environment where you can use whatever you fancy.
20:07	callenbot	dnolen: but most people don't have that. So lets put the perspective originating in privilege aside and consider the plight of people stuck in lesser programming communities and stacks.
20:08	hiredman	callenbot: that is the stupidest most entitled thing I've ever read in #clojure, you must be trolling
20:09	callenbot	hiredman: entitled is not caring whether or not the language spreads enough for other people to be able to convince their boss to use it.
20:09	callenbot	hiredman: I actually have a choice, but I know many people who do not. Pardon me for thinking of circumstances other than my own.
20:13	cola_zero	thearthur: I'm glad to hear that.
20:15	dnolen	callenbot: I dunno this is not something I worry about much. Clojure adoption seem to grow at a nice steady pace. I find it hard to really follow along these days.
20:16	craigbro	dnolen: would pldb need to work in clojurescript?
20:16	dnolen	craigbro: not at this point - defrel doesn't even work in CLJS yet
20:16	craigbro	ok
20:16	dnolen	craigbro: CLJS version of core.logic is no-frills miniKanren more or less
20:24	callenbot	dnolen: is it substantially different enough that you need to carefully consider what you might and might not be taking for granted in the Clojure core.logic?
20:26	dnolen	callenbot: it's pretty different - lots of stuff missing.
20:26	callenbot	that's good to know in case I characterize it incorrectly in future.
20:27	dnolen	callenbot: yeah I don't really have the energy to keep them in sync until we have something like official along the lines feature expressions
20:27	dnolen	callenbot: I mostly did the CLJS port to see a non-trivial benchmark of CLJS compiler output
20:29	Frozenlock	weavejester: You did a really nice explanation of the routing in compojure, thanks again :)
20:32	Frozenlock	Is there compelling reason to use enlive in a one-man project?
20:37	ToBeReplaced	Frozenlock: if you're not sure, just get dirty with it... it'll be time well spent because it reframes the problem a bit
20:38	Frozenlock	So many things to try!
20:57	callenbot	dnolen: I didn't even expect it to exist in CLJS. Pretty awesome idea for a test.
21:02	Frozenlock	#'fn-name is sugar coating for what exactly? Getting the function instead of the symbol?
21:03	tmciver	Frozenlock: same as (var fn-name)
21:03	Frozenlock	,doc var
21:03	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.repl/doc, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
21:03	Frozenlock	,(doc var)
21:03	clojurebot	excusez-moi
21:04	tmciver	&(doc var)
21:04	lazybot	⇒ "Special: var; The symbol must resolve to a var, and the Var object\nitself (not its value) is returned. The reader macro #'x expands to (var x)."
21:04	Frozenlock	clojurebot, why y u hate me?
21:04	clojurebot	deftype is see datatype
21:05	tmciver	Frozenlock: personally, I don't use it much but it's good for accessing a private function for testing.
21:05	Frozenlock	Where is this useful, VS quoting?
21:15	pppaul	i have a testing question
21:16	pppaul	i have a very side effect heavy workflow that i'm about to implement…. 90% of the functions are doing stuff with the file system or local server
21:16	pppaul	how would i test something like that?
21:18	Iceland_jack	pppaul: You can define properties that those actions should show (e.g. creating a non-existant file and removing it should not change the state of the system (for some definition of that))
21:20	pppaul	i was thinking about doing something like that stuart Sierra talked about, having a function that outputs instructions for a side-effect function to fulfill. then testing the instruction function
21:24	pppaul	i guess i am just overwhelmed by how much mocking i think i need… hope it turns out to be different
21:58	dxeh	im assuming with clojure, since it compiles to jvm bytecode, you can use actual java libraries within your clojure application?
21:59	gfredericks	dxeh: that's most of the reason that clojure targets the jvm
21:59	dxeh	well i like that idea, much better than writing boring old java syntax all of the time
21:59	gfredericks	quite
22:02	dxeh	does emacs have clojure support?
22:02	gfredericks	emacs has better support than any other editor/IDE
22:03	dxeh	gfredericks, built in though or do i need an addon
22:03	gfredericks	I think you need clojure-mode
22:04	austinh	I struggled to write a tree substitution relation in core.logic. If anyone knows how to improve https://gist.github.com/austinhaas/4743651 I would love hear about it.
22:09	austinh	That function took me about 15 hours to write.
22:10	Frozenlock	austinh: the shorter it is, the longer it takes :)
22:11	ln2	I'm watching the MIT Lips lectures. Trying to replicate one of the example programs in Clojure and I'm having some difficulty.
22:11	ln2	(defn adding [x y] (if (= x 0) y (inc (+ dec x))))
22:11	gfredericks	ln2: what do you want (inc (+ dec x)) to do?
22:12	ln2	This function should give me the sum of x and y.
22:12	gfredericks	ah ha
22:12	gfredericks	so (inc (+ (dec y) x)) then?
22:12	ln2	I'm not sure. What I wrote above is an exact copy (I think) of the lecture program.
22:13	ln2	Which was written in Lips however.
22:13	ln2	*Lisp
22:13	Frozenlock	Isn't a call to `adding' missing?
22:13	gfredericks	Frozenlock: oh it's s/+/adding/
22:13	ln2	(adding 1 2) throws the error
22:14	gfredericks	try (defn adding [x y] (if (= x 0) y (inc (adding (dec x) y))))
22:14	gfredericks	if that's not the code you're looking at I expect there was a mistake
22:15	ln2	That works!
22:15	ln2	Is there some difference between Clojure and Lisp that would break the profs program?
22:15	gfredericks	no I think it's a typo
22:15	Iceland_jack	ln2: What you're referring to as “Lisp” is most certainly Scheme?
22:15	ln2	Nope it's lisp.
22:15	ln2	http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-001-structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs-spring-2005/video-lectures/1b-procedures-and-processes-substitution-model/
22:16	Iceland_jack	Right, using SICP?
22:16	ln2	I "translated" the program to Clojure. Which apparently was a massive failure.
22:16	ln2	Your code works gfred! Thank you!
22:16	ln2	SICP?
22:16	clojurebot	sicp is http://www.codepoetics.com/wiki/index.php?title=Topics:SICP_in_other_languages:Clojure:Chapter_1
22:16	Iceland_jack	ln2: the thing you're studying
22:17	Iceland_jack	If you use Lisp to refer to a language (and I personally would not) it generally refers to Common Lisp
22:17	Iceland_jack	SICP uses Scheme
22:17	ln2	What is SICP? I'm sorry. xD
22:17	Iceland_jack	ln2: SICP is in the url that you yourself posted
22:18	Frozenlock	The name of the course I think
22:18	ln2	Ahh I see.
22:18	gfredericks	ln2: the name of the course is "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs"
22:18	ln2	That course is LISP for sure. 1A has Lisp in the name. Unless they changed from day 1 to day 2?
22:19	gfredericks	ln2: lisp is a family of languages
22:19	gfredericks	scheme is "a lisp"<
22:19	Iceland_jack	ln2: Lisp is a family of languages
22:19	ln2	"1A: Overview and Introduction to Lisp"
22:19	gfredericks	scheme is the "dialect" of lisp used in that course
22:19	Iceland_jack	LISP is a 50+ year old language
22:19	Frozenlock	Common Lisp, Scheme, Emacs lisp...
22:19	ln2	Interesting that they wouldn't refer to the actual language used...
22:20	Iceland_jack	ln2: They are using a Lisp, it's called Scheme
22:20	gfredericks	the name "scheme" might not have been so recognizable at the time
22:20	Frozenlock	ln2: iirc they mention _once_ that they are using scheme.
22:20	ln2	I'm really glad I asked a question then because I would have probably missed that not so little detail! Haha
22:21	ln2	Thanks. =)
22:21	Frozenlock	ln2: If you use emacs, you could probably just fire IELM and have a lisp repl, without the weird java messages :P
22:23	ln2	I'm using LightTable at the moment. So far I've enjoyed translating to Clojure but it was a little surprising when that program didn't translate (since it's so simple).
22:25	Frozenlock	ln2: see you are already a step ahead :P
22:25	gfredericks	ln2: I skipped through the video and found a function similar to the one you were talking about; it had -1+ for dec and 1+ for inc?
22:25	ln2	Yeah right. xD
22:25	ln2	Right! Everything translated perfectly I just subbed -1+ and 1+ for the dec and inc functions.
22:26	gfredericks	ln2: I'm looking at it right now and I think it's just like mine
22:26	gfredericks	staring at the second expression at 20:14
22:28	ln2	Yup. Now I look like a total tool. I was reading off of the blackboard instead of from the monitor where everything is neatly typed. Haha
22:29	gfredericks	oh I just found the right one by coincidence
22:29	gfredericks	at least now it's not a mystery :)
22:29	ln2	I wish they had these lectures at better than 240p. =(
22:31	Frozenlock	For the time it was made, I'm impressed those are available at all.
22:31	Frozenlock	With a screen to show the functions!
22:33	ln2	My favorite is the eval apply wizard. Haha
22:36	ln2	And my favorite quote so far is "It is good to have the names of things. Like any good wizard will tell you, if you have the name of a spirit you have control over it". Haha
22:36	ln2	I wonder if all of these professors played DnD? O.o
22:37	Frozenlock	Is there a way in compojure to get the current URI, other than adding {uri :uri} in the arguments?
22:44	gfredericks	Frozenlock: why would you need another way?
22:48	Frozenlock	I was toying with a menu function that set the 'active' class on where it presently is.
22:56	drewc	Frozenlock: strangely enough, I am working on something where I have to set the "active" class on an <li> for a "navbar" ... and I am working in Lisp :) Not Clojure at all, and I cannot answer the question... but somehow caught my eye.
22:56	Frozenlock	Bootstrap?
22:57	drewc	yup
22:57	drewc	I have used it for a while for a number of applications. It is quite great imo.
22:59	amalloy	Frozenlock: in the end, you have to look in the request object. but if you want, you can add a middleware that does some of the work for you
22:59	Frozenlock	drewc: First time using it. I was too lazy to make my own new css :P
23:00	amalloy	for example, Frozenlock, you can do something like https://github.com/4clojure/4clojure/blob/develop/src/foreclojure/ring_utils.clj
23:00	Frozenlock	amalloy: Ah! Probably next on my compojure learning; middleware
23:00	amalloy	not very functional, but convenient and not dangerously stateful
23:02	Frozenlock	Looks perfect! Thanks!
23:03	drewc	Frozenlock: I have made my own css over the years, but things have advanced quite a bit in the last little while, so now using bootstrap because it works for all the browsers I test in and was designed graphic-wise by designers, not /me/. Even re-doing a 10 year old application using it :)
23:07	Frozenlock	The jquery is a bit of a turnoff however, as I might end up using cljs on this project.
23:15	marcellusthecat	the javascript is optional but in practice I've found it extremely convenient to use (perhaps in addition to cljs) unless you want to spend time implementing a bunch of lowish level ui stuff yourself in cljs
23:23	dxeh	i think im going to write a jvm bytecode manipulation lib in clojure :D
23:45	Frozenlock	drewc: I'm amazed at how the layout changes when I resize the window. I must be getting old.
23:51	yedi	can someone who knows korma help me out with this simple starter program: https://gist.github.com/yedi/4743886
23:51	yedi	am i missing a step somewhere?
23:55	toast	yedi: try putting a (declare products) above defentity
23:55	yedi	shouldn't the defentity take care of declaring it?
23:56	yedi	i tried that and got the same error unfortunately
23:56	toast	yea - I was just looking at my code and that was the only diff I could see
23:57	yedi	yours works correctly?
23:57	yedi	hmm, maybe my postgres isn't set up right
23:58	yedi	it did say the server started