#clojure – 2013-02-04

2013-02-04

00:01	Frozenlock	durka42: Not pro, but I did use it. Question?
00:16	Frozenlock	I'm tempted to use a reader literal for an application... is there some thing I should be careful with?
00:19	durka42	Frozenlock: I think I'm all set
00:20	durka42	I wanted the cholcov() function from matlab
00:20	durka42	but I realized I can just look at the matlab source and port it
00:20	Frozenlock	alright
00:21	Frozenlock	Btw, if you want an alternative to matlab, https://www.gnu.org/software/octave/
00:21	durka42	oh I know :p
00:21	durka42	but I hate the matlab language also
00:21	durka42	so I'm trying to use clojure as my alternative
00:38	zerokarmaleft	durka42: julia might be worth looking into as well, and its perf is impressive
00:38	durka42	true
00:53	sshack	Other than emacs, what's the editor de jour for Clojure on OSX these days?
00:58	JanxSpirit	if I run a 'lein repl' in my project directory, the repl should load with the project dependencies on the classpath correct?
01:00	durka42	sshack: I'm using macvim with vim-clojure-static and foreplay
01:01	sshack	durka42: I should have remembered about vim.
01:02	durka42	oh, and RainbowParentheses :)
01:03	xeqi	JanxSpirit: yes
01:03	xeqi	though you start in the user namespace, and might need to change or (require ..) them
01:04	sshack	durka42: So you've recreated a scene from "Hackers" then?
01:04	JanxSpirit	xeqi: so I have added the monger dependency, but when I try to require it, clojure can't find it
01:04	durka42	sshack: don't think I've seen that one
01:04	JanxSpirit	sorry - I'm new to lein/clojure - just trying to figure out what I have wrong
01:05	durka42	but, probably :)
01:05	sshack	durka42: It's an absolute classic.
01:06	sshack	A gritty, real life look at the hacker scene in the 90's.;
01:06	durka42	okay, I'll put it on the list of "absolute classics I have to get to sometime"
01:06	xeqi	JanxSpirit: did you start the repl after adding monger to the :dependencies in project.clj?
01:07	JanxSpirit	I did
01:07	sshack	durka42: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql1uLyuWra8
01:07	JanxSpirit	and lein classpath shows the jar on the path
01:07	sshack	Good soundtrack too.
01:11	xeqi	JanxSpirit: https://www.refheap.com/paste/9390 ; what are you trying to require?
01:14	lynaghk	dnolen: if we change to `fnc` do you think we should also change `defc` to `defnc` to be consistent?
01:17	dnolen	lynaghk: yeah that's probably a good idea - I don't think many people are relying yet on `defc` and it's an easy change to account for.
01:18	JanxSpirit	xeqi: I had everything except the '
01:18	JanxSpirit	xeqi: (:require [monger.core :as mg])
01:18	JanxSpirit	xeqi: thanks - what does the ' mean?
01:19	xeqi	JanxSpirit: if you (:require ..) is used in (ns ...). (require '...) is used outside the (ns ..) declaration
01:19	xeqi	s/if you//
01:19	JanxSpirit	ah gotcha
01:19	xeqi	' makes it a symbol
01:19	JanxSpirit	thanks!
01:19	lynaghk	dnolen: cool, pushed.
01:21	dnolen	lynaghk: I'm kinda leaning towards something that looks like this http://gist.github.com/4705272
01:21	dnolen	lynaghk: would mean putting the unifier in it's own namespace, and changing the api somewhat
01:21	lynaghk	dnolen: not sure what goes in the dots. Why a special let keyword?
01:22	dnolen	lynaghk: it's annoying that you can't name subforms
01:22	dnolen	lynaghk: :let would allow you to do that
01:24	dnolen	lynaghk: gist updated
01:25	lynaghk	dnolen: whoaaa this is confusing. Same as (unifier '((?y ?z) ?a) '(?b [1 2 3])) ?
01:26	lynaghk	that can't be right. in that example you're not using ?x twice
01:26	dnolen	lynaghk: pretty much, the point of :let is that we don't have anything like :as like when you destructuring
01:26	dnolen	sorry, the example is a bit silly
01:28	dnolen	lynaghk: updated the gist again
01:29	lynaghk	?y and ?z would be bound to "foo" and 9? the unifier doesn't respect the concrete types, right?
01:29	dnolen	lynaghk: updated yet again w/ comment
01:29	lynaghk	ah, I see.
01:29	dnolen	lynaghk: yes, sorry the point is to get some of the flexibity of destructuring
01:30	dnolen	you want to name ?y ?z and also the list that contains them.
01:30	lynaghk	dnolen: Yeah, sure---presumably this would be useful when you want to twiddle the inside of some form but pass that entire form to a constraint
01:30	dnolen	lynaghk: yeah
01:31	dnolen	perhaps let is bad
01:31	dnolen	here
01:31	dnolen	changing to as
01:31	dnolen	lynaghk: updated
01:31	lynaghk	dnolen: I think as is better. I'm surprised to see "let" and then a map instead of a binding vector.
01:31	dnolen	lynaghk: agreed
01:32	lynaghk	dnolen: do you remember what syntax we agreed on for constraints of multiple lvars?
01:33	dnolen	lynaghk: I think options as map is better - I'm not sure what else we'll want to add, and keywords args stink unless you're really certain about the api
01:33	dnolen	lynaghk: a set / vector
01:33	lynaghk	dnolen: a vector as the key, with the constraint having the realized values in the same order?
01:34	lynaghk	we can't do a set because of the ordering.
01:34	dnolen	lynaghk: so we can do both!
01:34	dnolen	lynaghk: set if you don't care, vector if you do.
01:34	lynaghk	dnolen: options map is fine with me. I won't be able to say much until I try expressing the grammar of graphics rewrites in this system
01:34	dnolen	lynaghk: but maybe I'm forgetting precisely what you want to do?
01:35	dnolen	as far as constraints on multiple vars
01:35	lynaghk	dnolen: here's the old wishlist: https://gist.github.com/4004131
01:35	dnolen	lynaghk: oh I remember
01:35	dnolen	a constraint relationship between two vars
01:35	lynaghk	dnolen: yeah
01:37	lynaghk	dnolen: the simplest being a predicate taking [dataset, dimension] to see if, say, that dimension has string values or numeric values.
01:37	dnolen	gist updated
01:37	lynaghk	dnolen: yeah, looks great.
01:38	lynaghk	the quoting lvars is annoying, but not sure if there's a nice way to get around that without too much hackery/surprise
01:39	dnolen	lynaghk: yeah I don't really see what we can do about that at all
01:40	lynaghk	dnolen: do you need me to submit the fnc stuff via JIRA, or is the github fork okay?
01:41	dnolen	lynaghk: if you like we could just get you push rights to core.logic :)
01:42	lynaghk	dnolen: dude, I can't handle that! I haven't read any of the miniKanren papers yet!
01:43	dnolen	lynaghk: :P
01:43	dnolen	lynaghk: I'm sure you can handle it
01:43	dnolen	lynaghk: go ahead add a patch to JIRA and I'll ping clojure-dev so that things are easier in the future.
01:44	dnolen	lynaghk: as far as the defc -> defnc - did you grep for that in the whole project
01:44	lynaghk	okay, sounds good.
01:44	lynaghk	yeah
01:44	dnolen	it's used in a couple places I think
01:44	dnolen	ok cool
01:53	lynaghk	dnolen: okay, after going through JIRA and getting git to spit out a patch I changed my mind and am happy to have commit rights on github =)
03:52	borkdude	a while ago there was this library on twitter about doing OO in Clojure - I know it sounds evil, but what was this library?
03:52	p_l	borkdude: ummm, clojure is pretty fine with OO...
03:52	p_l	just maybe not with Java-ish COP
03:53	borkdude	p_l I mean the more Java-ish OO then
04:07	broquaint	Was it this, borkdude - https://github.com/bodil/pylon
04:16	borkdude	broquaint tnx
06:26	bosie	how common is it to write tests immediately in the function?
06:27	babilen	bosie: Are you referring to something like doctests in Python?
06:28	bosie	babilen: yes. and i saw the same happening in clojure
06:29	babilen	Oh, I haven't. /me waits for an answer too
06:35	bosie	babilen: are you using vim for clj?
06:35	babilen	yes, I am
06:36	bosie	babilen: vimclojure?
06:36	bosie	babilen: i am trying to find a way to re-indent code
06:36	babilen	I used to, but I switched to foreplay and lein's nrepl ever since Meikel endorsed it
06:36	bosie	ok
06:37	babilen	bosie: Select the code you want to re-indent (visual mode) and run "="
06:37	bosie	yea that doesn't work
06:37	bosie	trying foreplay now
06:37	qz	babilen: are you using paredit?
06:38	babilen	bosie: It does! I am using it every single day :)
06:38	babilen	qz: No, I can't stand it (i.e. "Have not yet grown accustomed to it")
06:39	qz	babilen: i'm very new to lisp syntax and editing files without it is such a pain..
06:45	Bodil	Oops... prebooka speakers for DevoxxFR er annonsert. http://www.devoxx.com/display/FR13/Devoxxians
06:45	Bodil	Darth Odersky, we meet at last...
06:46	Bodil	whoa, wrong channel :)
06:46	Bodil	Too early in the morning for internets.
07:46	hyPiRion	How dare you fill up #clojure with old norse
07:49	vagmi	\q
08:06	pablo__	Hi
08:07	pablo__	I have a little interop question.
08:08	pablo__	I'm doing some Java interop, and I'm trying to access an entry in a Clojure map, but the keys are keywords (like :my-key). Is there a way to create a Keyword object from Java or should I convert all my keys to string before handing them over to Java?
08:18	Sgeo	,(class :foo)
08:18	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
08:18	Sgeo	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Keyword.java
08:19	Sgeo	Hmm
08:19	Sgeo	,(clojure.lang.Keyword/intern "foo")
08:19	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
08:20	Sgeo	http://ideone.com/Exsxb3
08:20	Sgeo	So I guess it's clojure.lang.Keyword("foo") to get :foo
08:20	Sgeo	erm, oops
08:20	Sgeo	clojure.lang.Keyword.intern("foo")
08:21	Sgeo	pablo__, ^
08:23	pablo__	Sgeo: thanks
08:23	Sgeo	You're welcome
08:25	pablo__	Sgeo: hum, looks like the String param of intern() is the nsname...
08:25	pablo__	Sgeo: I think I found another solution in the end: clojure.walk/stringify-keys
08:26	Sgeo	http://ideone.com/hGnsfA
08:26	Sgeo	(= :foo (clojure.lang.Keyword/intern "foo")) gave me true
08:27	Sgeo	Hmm, are you sure you want to do it like that? That will also affect nested maps
08:27	Sgeo	,(require 'clojure.walk)
08:27	clojurebot	nil
08:27	Sgeo	,(clojure.walk/stringify-keys {:foo {:bar :baz}})
08:27	clojurebot	{"foo" {"bar" :baz}}
08:28	pablo__	I have to read a map from Java, so either I create Keywords in Java or I convert all the Keywords to Strings...
08:29	Sgeo	,(= "foo" "foo)
08:29	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
08:29	Sgeo	,(= "foo" "foo")
08:29	clojurebot	true
08:29	Sgeo	,(identical? "foo" "foo")
08:29	clojurebot	true
08:30	Sgeo	Ah, ok, immutable
08:30	Sgeo	good
08:30	pisketti	yes, unlike anything else
08:42	joegallo_	,(identical? "foo" (String. "foo"))
08:42	clojurebot	false
08:43	joegallo_	not all strings are interned, though, so you shouldn't necessarily assume that equivalent strings are identical
09:14	pjstadig	,(identical? "foo" (.intern (String. "foo")))
09:14	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
09:14	pjstadig	interesting
09:15	pjstadig	normally that would be true, except for clojurebot's security
09:17	alexnixon	and for fun: &\| [(identical? 42 42) (identical? 142 142)] \|&
09:17	lazybot	⇒ [true false]
09:18	cemerick	alexnixon: only integers < 128 are fixnums
09:18	cemerick	that's a jvm thing
09:18	cemerick	I guess they're all jvm things :-P
09:18	p_l	... dafuq. Can't you use the 4byte ones?
09:19	alexnixon	well I think /technically/ it's a Java thing (i.e. it's the implementation of Integer.valueOf, rather than some JVM magic)
09:20	alexnixon	and I've used up my week's pedantry quota in one sentence
09:20	cemerick	quite right
09:20	p_l	well, internally, there are bytes <-127,127>, shorts (16bit signed), integers (32bit signed) and I think longs were also "native" (64bit signed)
09:20	p_l	isnt' it?
09:20	cemerick	alexnixon: you use up a budget; you meet a quota.
09:21	cemerick	Fight pedantry with pedantry, amirite?
09:21	cemerick	;-)
09:21	alexnixon	-.-
09:21	p_l	it's hitting the infamous integer cache?
09:21	p_l	the one that let's you make 2+2 equal 6?
09:22	p_l	and otherwise returns freshly-allocated object wrappers and does EQ check on them?
09:24	alexnixon	yeah it's the cache, though I'm not sure I've seen the 2+2=6 example
09:27	p_l	alexnixon: there's a "logic bomb" posted somewhere which slowly corrupts the cache
09:31	jcrossley3	llasram: awesome damballa sponsorship of atl-clj!
10:04	a\|i	when interoping with java, which way is the most used one?: (Classname. args) or (new Classname args)
10:04	Ember-	(Classname. args*) imho
10:10	biff_tannen	how can i make lein re-generate my README file based on changes in my project.clj ?
10:11	joegallo_	like what changes?
10:11	joegallo_	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/resources/leiningen/new/default/README.md
10:11	joegallo_	looking at the template itself, i'm not sure it would do anything differently.
10:11	hyPiRion	biff_tannen: Sounds like something a plugin could do, but leiningen isn't sentient yet :)
10:11	biff_tannen	well, i dont mean automatically
10:12	biff_tannen	just a command that will re-write the readme ..
10:12	biff_tannen	right now my readme has all the default 'FIXME' stuff in it
10:12	hyPiRion	biff_tannen: Yeah, I get that, but i just wonder what you'd like to have in it.
10:12	joegallo_	right. that's for you to correct with an editor.
10:13	biff_tannen	oh ... so that wasn't generated? that was an assumption on my part
10:13	joegallo_	it is generated. it says "FIXME", and if you regenerated it (somehow), it would still say "FIXME". that part of the template isn't parameterized.
10:13	joegallo_	see link above.
10:13	biff_tannen	ok i understand
10:14	harrigan	in Datomic, is it possible to create a query that will return all entities with a :db.type/bytes attribute having a given value?
10:17	llasram	jcrossley3: Thanks! If we're going to be the ~1 Atlanta-based company using Clojure in production, it seemed like a good idea :-)
10:18	jcrossley3	llasram: :)
10:23	a\|i	wat's the equivalent of javascript (var foo = foo \|\| bar) in clojure?
10:24	llasram	a\|i: (let [foo (or foo bar)] ...), although it isn't an especially common idiom in Clojure
10:25	a\|i	llasram: I want to fetch a big xml only once in repl, in next evaluations I want to re0use that fetched string. what's a better way than the above?
10:26	llasram	a\|i: Why not just (def xml-glob (fetch-xml-glob))
10:26	llasram	You can use `defonce` instead of `def` it appears where it will be repeated evaluated
10:27	nDuff	...if it weren't in a repl but an actual program, I'd consider a delay -- (def xml-glob (delay (fetch-xml-glob))); that way, it won't try to be fetched during compilation
10:27	llasram	Or even (defonce ... (delay ...)) :-)
10:30	a\|i	why not defonce with a fn to avoid fetching during compilation?
10:35	llasram	a\|i: Then your semantics conflict. A delay is essentially a zero-argument fn with memoized result.
10:35	llasram	a\|i: If you just defonce a fn, you're storing the fn itself, and thus not caching the result
10:36	a\|i	llasram: ah I was looking for a way to have a 0 arg memoizer :)
10:36	llasram	Well there you go then :-)
10:37	llasram	(inc nDuff)
10:37	lazybot	⇒ 3
10:40	llasram	Good point... It is rather surprising that (inc nickname) doesn't return the same value every time :-)
10:41	a\|i	llasram: does delay require a special treatment in repl?
10:41	a\|i	just trying the example in repl doesn't work: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/delay
10:41	a\|i	giving @my-delay to repl gives me back: @my-delay
10:42	nDuff	a\|i: I can't reproduce that.
10:42	S11001001	,(let [del (delay 100)] [(type del) (type @del) del @del])
10:42	Anderkent	a\|i: can't reproduce
10:42	clojurebot	[clojure.lang.Delay java.lang.Long #<Delay@4cbe83ae: 100> 100]
10:42	S11001001	a\|i: looks right
10:43	hyPiRion	a\|i: What repl do you use? lein repl or clojure?
10:43	a\|i	hyPiRion: I use sublimerepl, which I think uses lein.
10:43	nDuff	That's a Mac-only thing, no? Can't test here.
10:44	hyPiRion	a\|i: Check if there's an issue with sublimerepl. It may be that sublimerepl treats @ differently.
10:44	a\|i	it worked after I started a fresh repl.
10:44	hyPiRion	Hmm, funny.
10:44	a\|i	I think I don' understand repl oriented development.
10:44	a\|i	when I keep evaluating my clojure files into the repl,.. things get built up.
10:44	a\|i	so previous definitions can have a side effect.
10:45	a\|i	is evaluating the file into the repl repeatedly the right way?
10:45	Anderkent	well, you don't want your namespaces to side-effect on being loaded, most of the time
10:45	Anderkent	and some things like deftype really don't take well to being reloaded (which is kinda dissapointing, really)
10:46	Anderkent	but in general you should be able to just reevaluate or require :reload your ns
10:46	nDuff	a\|i: In nrepl.el, there are key combinations to recompile your current file as a whole, so it's not _just_ building things up.
10:46	nDuff	a\|i: ...couldn't speak to whatever they've got for sublime.
10:59	ToBeReplaced	How do you configure clojurescript-mode with lein-cljsbuild? Is that the preferred way to develop cljs now with emacs?
11:01	ToBeReplaced	I think i'm confused because I'm not sure whether i should be checking out the clojurescript repos and setting the environment variable myself or whether lein-cljsbuild is meant to take care of that for you
11:12	the-kenny	ToBeReplaced: I'm not familiar with clojurescript-mode, but with lein-cljsbuild, you don't need to clone the repo or similar to build your cljs-project
11:13	the-kenny	My workflow usually consists in running lein cljsbuild auto and working with clojure-mode on my cljs-files. No repl, though
11:22	hyPiRion	Hrrm, anyone familiar with Erlang here?
11:22	hyPiRion	Just wondering if there's any persistent map equivalent.
11:23	hyPiRion	Which can be used for destructuring.
11:25	S11001001	I bet reiddraper's pretty familiar with it :)
11:26	S11001001	hyPiRion: based on my limited knowledge of erlang, I doubt very much you'll find such a thing though
11:27	hyPiRion	S11001001: yeah, looks like there's no keyword arguments either
11:27	hyPiRion	Oh well, I just have to remember the order then.
11:27	S11001001	hyPiRion: yeah, erlang style seems to prefer tuples for that sort of thing over maps
11:30	hyPiRion	boo
11:39	hyPiRion	Clojure has spoiled me. Why aren't these goodies available in every language I use? :(
11:40	DaReaper5	Hi, does anyone know a good robust lib for working with excel data?
11:40	DaReaper5	If not clojure lib then java lib is acceptable
11:41	hyPiRion	DaReaper5: http://liebke.github.com/incanter/excel-api.html
11:41	nDuff	Thought I'd seen a Clojure wrapper around the dominant Java library
11:41	DaReaper5	(What I need to do is work with an uploaded excel file (possibly has errors) and mass import the data to my DB)
11:42	DaReaper5	Ya i saw excel-api. Just thought I would ask you guys anyways ;)
11:42	nDuff	...ahh; https://github.com/mebaran/clj-excel is what I had in mind.
11:42	hyPiRion	Incanter is the dominant data analysis library, though I don't know if it's good for excel data.
11:43	hyPiRion	I would suppose so.
11:43	nDuff	anyhow, Apache POI (which they wrap) is definitely robust and well-
11:43	nDuff	...-supported
11:43	TimMc	DaReaper5: https://poi.apache.org/
11:43	TimMc	Specifically https://poi.apache.org/spreadsheet/index.html
11:43	TimMc	"HSSF" stands for "Horrible SpreadSheet Format"
11:44	DaReaper5	I briefly looked at incanter. It looks like it does not work well with formulas
11:44	DaReaper5	as in it wont take the value or formula it would just leave it blank
11:44	hyPiRion	That sounds like a useless library then.
11:44	nDuff	POI proper supports formula evaluation -- see https://poi.apache.org/spreadsheet/eval.html
11:44	DaReaper5	ya
11:45	DaReaper5	http://data-sorcery.org/2010/05/31/xls-files/
11:47	hyPiRion	Humm, I've noticed I'm probably doing "Let over Lambda" (not read the book), where I define functions taking initial values, prepare some values and returns a function utilizing those prepared values plus some input. Is that a common pattern? Bad/good?
11:48	nDuff	hyPiRion: Using closures is not considered a bad thing.
11:49	Sgeo	How do people live without closures, exactly/
11:49	Sgeo	?
11:49	ohpauleez	Sgeo: I don't know, and I don't ever want to know
11:50	nDuff	Sgeo: Badly.
11:50	durka421	well, they're just denied closure...
11:50	durka421	(i'll show myself out)
11:50	ohpauleez	but for real, they use objects or globals
11:50	hyPiRion	nDuff: Nono, I just wonder if the (defn prepare-fn [p] (let [p* (prepare p)] (fn [v] ...))) is idiomatic, or if it's kind of premature optimization
11:51	gtrak	hyPiRion: you could implement let with just function args, mit-scheme has 'instantaneous evaluation' of all let bindings, which is a similar semantics to a function call. If you want it sequential like we have it, you could keep building up functions with 1-arg, 2 args, etc..
11:51	hyPiRion	gtrak: Yeah, I know. I've read SICP ;)
11:51	gtrak	:-)
11:52	gtrak	so let and partial and closures are not so different
11:53	hyPiRion	Hmm, making it multiarg seems smart, maybe that's the solution.
11:54	hyPiRion	Maybe I'm a Haskeller at heart, sans the type system.
11:56	DaReaper5	Does anyone here use incanter with excel?
11:57	Sgeo	not written any Haskell in his life >>= \hyPiRion ->
12:00	hyPiRion	Sgeo: I know some of those characters, but not in that combination
12:01	Anderkent	hyPiRion: it's a trick, because he implied a `do` statement wrapping your message
12:13	gfredericks	<- doesn't normally mean anything without do, does it?
12:15	Anderkent	indeed, though I don't know if it can be overriden
12:19	bawr	you could, but that way lies madness
12:19	bawr	madness, I say!
12:20	Anderkent	but... but... emoticon code! \ -> . <- /
12:32	gfredericks	did somebody say that a #bytes default data reader would be added eventually?
12:32	gfredericks	or more directly, is that the case?
12:32	TimMc	Yes, in version 3.12 "Querulous Quinoa".
12:33	hiredman	gfredericks: someone (I think stu) mentioned something about maybe adding something like that
12:33	hiredman	I imagine it would be #base64 "..."
12:33	gfredericks	#base65 for those who want the extra power
12:34	hiredman	people have asked about it for datomic, so I imagine it has some change of happening
12:34	llasram	I'd like a default #byte-string or such which turned strings with "\\xHH" into byte-arrays
12:35	llasram	Also, a pony!
12:35	gfredericks	#pony {:name "Buttercups"}
12:36	llasram	heh
12:42	biff_tannen	any tuts on clojurescript ? i am able to deploy a running web-server with clojure using ring and clojure, but with implementing clojurescript , i can use some help ...
12:44	dnolen	biff_tannen: http://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs
12:45	biff_tannen	awesome thx dnolen
12:48	lancepantz	dnolen: i'm sure you get bugged about this all the time, do do you know what the status of source mapping is in clojurescript?
12:48	gfredericks	waiting on tools.reader and 1.5 was the last thing I heard
12:49	lancepantz	i've been out of the loop for a bit
12:50	lancepantz	gfredericks: is tools.reader a todo? or just waiting for a merge?
12:50	gfredericks	I have no idea :( I didn't even know the project formally existed already
12:51	lancepantz	k
12:51	gfredericks	woah I didn't know namespace prefixes could have .'s
12:51	gfredericks	I apparently don't know anything about clojure
12:53	dnolen	lancepantz: I do get bugged about it a lot :)
12:54	lancepantz	dnolen: i have permission to spend time on it, if there's anything i can do
12:54	dnolen	lancepantz: there's a source map branch that relies on 1.5.0, when 1.5.0 goes out the door I want to merge it in
12:54	dnolen	lancepantz: as soon as that happens it'll be easier for people to contribute and I'm happy to explain how it works
12:55	lancepantz	dnolen: k, just let me know, you know how to reach me :)
12:55	dnolen	lancepantz: once in - we should look at making sure tools.reader gives us column information for symbols - then switch to tools.reader away from the Clojure reader
12:56	dnolen	lancepantz: I'd like all symbol emission to go through emit :var, right now emission of symbols is very unprincipled
12:57	dnolen	lancepantz: that's sweet you've got permission to work on it - could definitely use more help! :)
12:57	lancepantz	dnolen: so right now, cljs uses the same reader as clojure?
12:57	dnolen	lancepantz: it does
12:57	lancepantz	i would expect that to cause problems with interop
12:58	dnolen	lancepantz: which means that any reader changes have to go through Rich which is understandably slow
12:58	lancepantz	right
12:59	dnolen	lancepantz: which is why I was excited about blind -> tools.reader
12:59	lancepantz	dnolen: right right
12:59	dnolen	lancepantz: you can poke around the source-map branch feel free to ask me any questions
13:01	dnolen	lancepantz: http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/compare/source-map
13:01	dnolen	I just brought it in sync w/ master
13:02	lancepantz	dnolen: alright, will do, this is the first i've touched of clojurescript, so i have some catching up to do first
13:03	lancepantz	dnolen: but we are going to start using it, we've been working with ztellman on an open source metrics system based on aleph, figured we might as well do the ui in cljs
13:03	dnolen	lancepantz: cool!
13:04	lancepantz	it's a neat project, essentially a statsd/graphite replacement
13:06	lancepantz	still way early, although we have ran some trials of it in production: https://github.com/flatland/telemetry
13:07	durka42	lancepantz: you win the award for vague README.md :)
13:07	lancepantz	durka42: let me rephrase, still waaaaaaay early
13:07	lancepantz	definitely don't want anyone using it!
13:07	durka42	fair enough
13:12	pbostrom	Is there a consensus on :require :refer vs :use :only? I had thought that :require :refer was strongly preferred, but I could be making that up
13:14	Frozenlock	pbostrom: I had a weird mindset where I used :use and :only... now I regret it. Really better to use :require. (And not refer, just required). IMO it keeps everything cleaner. Also easier if you want to swap libraries or something of this kind.
13:14	rasmusto	pbostrom: from what I know, :use/:only turns into :require/:refer in a macro, so you should just use :require/:refer in the first place
13:14	technomancy	pbostrom: :require :refer was introduced specifically to replace :use :only
13:14	Frozenlock	:require library :as lib ----> lib/some-fn
13:17	pbostrom	ok, that's what I thought, I was skimming through "ClojureScript: Up and Running", and saw :use :only with no mention of :require :refer, perhaps it was an oversight
13:25	reiddraper	hyPiRion: late reply, but there is no equivalent of map destructuring in erlang, unfortunately
13:27	reiddraper	hyPiRion: you _can_ do that with records though, which are basically just macros around tuples
13:32	magnars	lein midje --lazytest works fine. lein midje (with no --lazytest) does not, but fails with this error: Could not locate bultitude/core__init.class or bultitude/core.clj on classpath http://pastie.org/6045137 --- any ideas?
13:33	magnars	never mind me, turns out I was using a really old midje version blush
13:35	magnars	ack, that wasn't it either :P still same error
13:35	technomancy	magnars: I heard that was fixed in the latest midje RC or something
13:35	magnars	technomancy: excellent, thanks
13:37	magnars	yes, that did resolve the issue, thanks - I'm still getting seemingly random hangs from leiningen tho - its task is done, but I have to sigint it to stop.
13:38	technomancy	probably the task is leaving a thread pool open
13:38	magnars	makes sense
13:38	bosie	how would you solve querying states for a user? like "if the user has a store and is older than 3month and is XXX then do ABC; else if the user has a store and is older than 1month and is XYZ then do BBC; else....."
13:39	bosie	almost thinking of doing this with core.logic somehow
13:40	goracio	hi can it be simplier ? (vec (map str (vec "world")))
13:40	hiredman	,(mapv str "world")
13:40	clojurebot	["w" "o" "r" "l" "d"]
13:40	goracio	great thanks
13:41	jcromartie	must… save… sanity… must… write… Lisp…
13:41	wink	yay, more zombie coders!
13:42	goracio	why split returns this btw ?
13:42	goracio	,(clojure.string/split "world")
13:42	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: string$split>
13:42	goracio	,(clojure.string/split "world" #"")
13:42	clojurebot	["" "w" "o" "r" "l" ...]
13:42	hiredman	read the docs for split?
13:42	jcromartie	goracio: that' san empty regex
13:43	jcromartie	goracio: empty regex matches nothing (i.e. anything)
13:43	bosie	jcromartie: why would it return "" though?
13:43	TimMc	,(clojure.string/split "" #"")
13:43	clojurebot	[""]
13:43	TimMc	,(clojure.string/split "1" #"")
13:43	clojurebot	["" "1"]
13:43	TimMc	Seems legit. :-)
13:43	bosie	TimMc: right
13:44	bosie	but why would it do that?
13:44	jcromartie	it's an odd case for sure
13:44	goracio	can split return vector without "" ?
13:44	bosie	,(clojure.string/split nil #"")
13:44	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
13:44	jcromartie	but the empty regex in this case actually matches the nothingness before and after the 1
13:45	TimMc	bosie: Can you come up with an argument for a different answer?
13:45	bosie	TimMc: ["" "1" ""]
13:45	jcromartie	that might make more sense
13:45	jcromartie	,(re-seq #"" " ")
13:45	clojurebot	("" "")
13:45	goracio	may be pattern should be of some kind ?
13:46	jcromartie	goracio: what are you trying to do?
13:46	bosie	goracio: you could use (filter...) to remove the empty strings
13:46	goracio	jcromartie: i mean we cann't make split to return it without "" ?
13:47	jcromartie	goracio: are you looking for the sequence of single-character strings that make up the string?
13:47	jcromartie	,(re-seq #"." "hello world")
13:47	clojurebot	("h" "e" "l" "l" "o" ...)
13:47	gerunddev	,(rest (clojure.string/split nil #""))
13:47	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
13:47	jcromartie	split is for dividing a string on boundaries
13:47	gerunddev	,(rest (clojure.string/split "" #""))
13:47	clojurebot	()
13:47	goracio	exactly
13:48	jcromartie	an empty regex is pretty much never the answer ;)
13:48	goracio	ok thanks have to experiment more on this stuff )
13:50	jcromartie	experimenting is good
13:56	TimMc	,(map str "hello")
13:56	clojurebot	("h" "e" "l" "l" "o")
13:56	TimMc	goracio: ^ even simpler
13:56	goracio	TimMc: it will return seq
13:56	goracio	i need vector _
13:56	goracio	)
13:57	ro_st	,(vec (map str "try this"))
13:57	clojurebot	["t" "r" "y" " " "t" ...]
13:57	goracio	,(mapv str "hello")
13:57	clojurebot	["h" "e" "l" "l" "o"]
13:57	goracio	that's fine
13:57	ro_st	or use mapv :-)
13:57	ro_st	-learns something new-
13:57	Frozenlock	jcromartie: What about an empty string? If I want to remove something in a string, I usually use the replace function with an empty replacement. Is there a better way?
13:58	Frozenlock	Oh wow mapv... could be used at so many places instead of (into [] (map....
13:59	Frozenlock	#clojure is amazing, it's as if I was learning by osmosis.
14:00	bawr	Frozenlock: aye, good language channels work like that. :)
14:00	babilen	Frozenlock: https://github.com/jonase/kibit/ catches things like this (not sure about this particular one though)
14:00	jcromartie	yeah, mapv is handy
14:02	Frozenlock	babilen: I'm somehow afraid it will scream at me :p
14:03	babilen	Frozenlock: That's ok -- It tells you how to silence it :)
14:10	mmitchell	dakrone
14:11	dnolen	for people who have been burned by the CLJS Closure third-party dependency issues - please try this out - http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-418
14:15	ToBeReplaced	i can't even get the browser repl running following the instructions from: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/tree/ad0e4af1b20fe829ea3a7feb1b7067250309b1cc/samples/repl ... i just get "Page not found" :(
14:18	jro_	in (source +), what is reduce1: ([x y & more] (reduce1 + (+ x y) more)))
14:19	Bronsa	because + is defined before reduce
14:19	ro_st	dnolen: thanks, will give it a go
14:20	tbaldridge	jro_: it's a simpler form of reduce that lacks the features of the normal version, but can be defined before all the stuff reduce needs has been created.
14:20	tbaldridge	jro_: it's only really used in core.clj
14:24	ToBeReplaced	Any suggestions for how to get the CLJS browser repl server to accept a connection? if i connect via firefox i just get shipped back "Page not found".
14:29	Frozenlock	ToBeReplaced: What works and what doesn't? Did you specify a repl-listen-port in your cljsbuild config? What does your html file looks like?
14:31	ToBeReplaced	Frozenlock: I am running directly from clojurescript/script/repl... no leiningen, no lein-cljsbuild, no html file
14:31	Frozenlock	Oh... never tried that :(
14:40	warz	S11001001, yesterday we were talking about reify. i've been reading up about it and messing around with it in the repl and stuff. how would you do the equivalent of a Java Annotation on a class member method, though?
14:41	S11001001	hehe, no annotations last I checked
14:41	warz	dang! heh ok.
14:41	warz	yea i mean, i did look around for how to do so, but didn't come up with anything.
14:42	warz	i wonder if i should just use java for these darn plugins.
14:43	S11001001	warz: I'd suggest considering scala instead, in concert with https://github.com/joshcough/MinecraftPluginsScalaExample
14:43	S11001001	warz: Alternatively, any non-annotation-based approach will work.
14:45	warz	well ive got it working entirely using the gen-class approach, in clojure. im pretty sure i could eventually figure out my original question yesterday as well, which was just creating my own class constructor so that i could pass in and store a reference to the main plugin object.
14:46	S11001001	warz: what I mean is, consider java last
14:46	warz	but yea, the server im using, called Bukkit, requires these Annotations.
14:46	dnolen	I thought Clojure had annotation support
14:46	S11001001	dnolen: I have no idea really
14:46	warz	ah yea, only reason im even messing around with the JVM, any Bukkit at all, is because i want to learn Clojure
14:46	hiredman	dnolen: in some places for somethings
14:47	warz	yea, based on my readings of the docs and stuff, gen-class seems to support the most of these features
14:47	hiredman	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-948 made it in to 1.5
14:47	Sgeo	Someone did make a mod or something for Minecraft in Clojure
14:48	Frozenlock	Sgeo: I think it was to make `bots'
14:48	Sgeo	http://metaphysicaldeveloper.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/conjcraft-a-minecraft-mod-implemented-in-clojure/
14:49	warz	i was only tangentially interested in minecraft server mods because i knew it was java, and thought itd be something fun to keep my interest while learning clojure. haha.
14:49	Frozenlock	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV7zbzH37Qo clojurecraft
14:49	warz	it has turned out that java interop can get hairy kinda quick, though.
14:49	warz	so probably not the best way to learn.
14:50	Sgeo	Java interop gets impure from a Clojure perspective
14:50	Sgeo	,(map inc [1 2 3])
14:50	clojurebot	(2 3 4)
14:50	warz	i did manage to make one server mod that logs in-game events to mixpanel analytics: https://github.com/ryancole/com.rycole.bukkit.mixpanel
14:50	Sgeo	,(map .toString [1 2 3])
14:50	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: .toString in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
14:50	S11001001	warz: true.
14:50	Sgeo	,(map #(% .toString) [1 2 3])
14:50	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: .toString in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
14:50	Sgeo	,(map #(.toString %) [1 2 3])
14:50	clojurebot	("1" "2" "3")
14:50	warz	yea thats pretty simple stuff, though
14:50	Sgeo	.toString is not a Clojure function
14:51	S11001001	warz: definitely you're missing out on the clojure experience if using gen-class, because gen-class is tedious, and not at all in the spirit of true clojurian development
14:52	Sgeo	Write a macro to abstract out the gen-class usage as needed?
14:52	warz	yea i get that feeling. i just need to think of something cool to make.
15:02	svedubois	How I can translate this java code to clojure? https://www.refheap.com/paste/9408
15:04	ToBeReplaced	dnolen: my cljs problem was caused by this: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-418 ... was really hard for me to figure that out trying to set this up for the first time since it breaks the script/repl. this thread had my exact issue and fix https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/clojure/brent/clojure/DmnPwrVvfW8/qgnp6MTVWusJ ... thanks for the PSA
15:06	amalloy	svedubois: what have you tried?
15:06	dnolen	ToBeReplaced: no problem, sooner people confirm the fix the sooner we get a new release that doesn't have the issue
15:13	svedubois	I have tried something like this https://www.refheap.com/paste/9409
15:15	hiredman	I would start off reading the docs for for
15:15	dnolen	svedubois: I suggest taking a step back and getting a book on Clojure designed for people coming from Java and other imperative languages - I hear the O'Reilly book is good.
15:20	jcromartie	That's not a bad first try
15:20	jcromartie	svedubois:
15:21	cemerick	svedubois: maybe https://www.refheap.com/paste/9410
15:21	jcromartie	but I'm a little bit wary of this RealSum class...
15:21	cemerick	svedubois: and perhaps check out http://clojurebook.com
15:21	cemerick	"numerical instabilities"
15:22	jcromartie	yeah
15:22	cemerick	sounds like the IEEE floating point spec
15:22	jcromartie	is this an image library?
15:23	jcromartie	I'd guess http://code.imagej.net/trac/imglib/browser/imglib2/core/src/main/java/net/imglib2/util/RealSum.java?rev=a340a39990fbea0e061121c884a128e698341cf0
15:25	pbostrom	cemerick: iterator-seq might not be necessary since input implements Iterable
15:25	cemerick	pbostrom: oh, right, I misread that as 'Iterator'
15:27	svedubois	cemerick: It works well, thanks
15:43	ollivera	hi, .. I am parsing a csv file and I would like to sum all the values of the key "sc-bytes". http://pastebin.com/TPahzhRx
15:44	nDuff	ollivera: If you're privileged enough to be using an adblocker and thus not see them -- pastebin.com is full of annoying, animated ads. Perhaps you might consider refheap.com (which, being written in Clojure, would also be dogfooding), or gist, or otherwise something different?
15:44	hyPiRion	reiddraper: But {foo, A, bar, B} != {bar, B, foo, A}, right? So the ordering is still important (though it fails if you give it the arguments in the wrong order, which is something at least)
15:44	hyPiRion	(late reply for me as well)
15:46	ollivera	nDuff, https://www.refheap.com/paste/9412
15:46	ollivera	okay, nice! :)
15:48	dnolen_	man, another paren thread on the mailing list
15:50	devlol	hello jcromartie
15:50	rboyd	ollivera: maybe something like this? (reduce #(+ %1 (Integer. (get %2 "sc-bytes"))) 0 rows)
15:50	rboyd	ollivera: where rows is a seq of your csv rows (maps)
15:50	nDuff	Heh. What I was coming up with was thus: (reduce + (map #(Integer/parseInt (get % "sc-bytes")) data))
15:51	nDuff	could also make that (apply + ...)
15:51	ollivera	Hum, thanks, I will try
15:51	Frozenlock	Not really clojure related, but this makes me really happy http://blog.chromium.org/2013/02/hello-firefox-this-is-chrome-calling.html
15:51	amalloy	dnolen_: newcomers begging to remove parens is the Other Lisp Curse
15:54	tbaldridge	dnolen: don't they know the first rule of Lisp fight club? (you don't talk about the parens)
15:57	hyPiRion	tbaldridge: What parentheses?
15:59	ohpauleez	amalloy: haha
16:00	ohpauleez	I think we should just reply, "Remember the first time you tried beer - it was bitter, you hated it, you didn't understand why people drank it. Then you stuck with it, and you realized how beautiful it was."
16:01	rasmusto	how about we replace )))))) with #] or something?
16:02	ohpauleez	rasmusto: I rarely pay attention to a long list of closing parens
16:02	amalloy	rasmusto: :(((((((((((((((((
16:02	rasmusto	amalloy: #]
16:02	ohpauleez	overtime, your eyes gloss over it, and with paren highlighting in your editor, it's easy to place them when you need to
16:02	amalloy	#] or an equivalent is a disaster: it serves no purpose, and makes code harder to edit
16:03	ohpauleez	yeah, it's totally break paredit
16:03	ohpauleez	it'd**
16:03	amalloy	ohpauleez: it's worse than that, because it's no longer possible to just wrap some expression with parens
16:03	amalloy	even manually
16:03	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
16:03	ohpauleez	for sure
16:04	rasmusto	amalloy: wasn't it in a lisp of olde at some point? (btw, I'm 100% joking about putting it in)
16:04	amalloy	rasmusto: i think some schemes have had it
16:14	rasmusto	technomancy: someone else brought it up :#]
16:14	technomancy	we should maintain a list of every time it's been discussed
16:16	hyPiRion	The qsort example made me wonder how I could implement it with juxt.
16:17	hyPiRion	Must be some way.
16:20	TimMc	juxt-sort
16:23	S11001001	1
16:24	Bronsa	dnolen_: just added line/column metadata on symbols FYI
16:24	amalloy	hyPiRion: (interpose [pivot] ((juxt filter remove) smaller xs))?
16:26	hyPiRion	amalloy: I was thinking of (juxt > == <) somehow.
16:43	seangrove	Has anyone thought about a paren-free dialect of clojure?
16:43	dnolen_	Bronsa: sweet!
16:44	tbaldridge	seangrove: thought about? yes.
16:44	hiredman	seangrove: no, no one ever has, please bring your great wisdom down from the mount
16:45	seangrove	Well, it could be a good way of spending time debating its merits...
16:45	seangrove	:P
16:45	seangrove	I'm curious why it couldn't just be an editor-level thing though
16:45	hyPiRion	Success
16:45	hyPiRion	,(let [qsort (fn qs [[p :as l]] (if p (let [{f 1 p 0 l -1} (-> (partial compare p) (group-by l))] (lazy-cat (qs f) p (qs l)))))] (qsort [5 1 8 3 2 0]))
16:45	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 5 ...)
16:45	tbaldridge	(waves Jedi hands) : you do not want paren-free lisp....
16:45	hyPiRion	Not with juxt though.
16:45	seangrove	Parsing clojure is pretty straight-forward, seems like if someone wanted to do it they could just make an emacs-mode
16:45	tbaldridge	(waves Jedi hands) : You want to go home and re-think your life
16:45	tbaldridge	:-P
16:45	amalloy	seangrove: because the whole premise is absurd
16:46	amalloy	there's not enough information without the parens
16:46	seangrove	Meh, you'd have to introduce additional semantics, etc
16:46	seangrove	But clojure has to be one of the easiest language for someone (who wants that) to do it
16:46	seangrove	No need to request it, it seems
16:46	hyPiRion	The most difficult thing would be destructuring.
16:47	hyPiRion	If you're going to be delimiter-free
16:47	gfredericks	O_O
16:47	seangrove	Ah, good point
16:48	seangrove	Doesn't seem like a very high-value project, personally
16:48	dnolen_	seangrove: paren-free Lisps are an old idea with few success stories - Dylan being a notable exception, but the macro system looks more like syntax-rules (for better or worse)
16:48	technomancy	many people have tried it with other lisps, and it works about as well as you'd expect from a project explicitly designed for newbies to abandon once they achieve proficiency
16:49	seangrove	Heh, sorry, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek about suggesting it
16:49	seangrove	Pure troll, didn't mean for it to be taken very seriously
16:50	gfredericks	what about a language that is like clojure but with more parentheses
16:50	seangrove	haha
16:50	Raynes	seangrove: People have.
16:50	cemerick	TimMc has been pioneering that for a while
16:50	hyPiRion	gfredericks: And more sharp-quoting!
16:50	rasmusto	gfredericks: ( is a macro for (((((
16:50	bawr	how about...
16:50	pjstadig	uuids!
16:50	Raynes	And they get surprised when the realize nobody cares about a non-pareny syntax.
16:50	bawr	a clojure with more APL syntax? xD
16:51	hiredman	don't make me figure out how to load pl in to clojurebot again
16:51	gfredericks	at the very least we can have mandatory metadata
16:51	hyPiRion	(let ((a 10)) (+ a a)) vs (let [a 10] (+ a a)), count the parens.
16:51	amalloy	gfredericks: like clojure but with more parens? common lisp is a winner
16:52	gfredericks	(ommon li)(p
16:52	hyPiRion	And remove car and cdr, such that you have to do destructuring for those values.
16:53	amalloy	lixp?
16:54	hyPiRion	Hmm, you could probably make a brainfuck-like version of lisp, where () denotes a function, (()) denotes another function and (() ()) denotes a function call, etc.
16:54	jballanc	hyPiRion: I've seen raw lambda calculus implementations like that
16:54	hyPiRion	Not sure how you distinguish (()) from ( () ) though,
16:54	jcromartie	devlol: hello?
16:54	gfredericks	hyPiRion: whitespace sensitive s-expressions?
16:54	hyPiRion	jballanc: Oh, that sounds nice.
16:55	gfredericks	it's the opposite of clojure: ' ' is not whitespace
16:55	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Hmm.
16:55	hyPiRion	That's the opposite of every language in existence though, except Python.
16:55	gfredericks	you could use two different kinds of spaces and treat them like brackets that have to be balanced
16:56	gfredericks	hyPiRion: I meant opposite in the sense that clojure has an extra char \, which is whitespace
16:56	bawr	gfredericks: you evil, evil man.
16:56	hyPiRion	like ' ' and ' '?
16:56	gfredericks	hyPiRion: sure
16:56	jcromartie	you're talking about church numerals?
16:56	hyPiRion	oh, humm.
16:56	jballanc	yup, that's the term I was looking for
16:56	jballanc	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding
16:56	hyPiRion	,(let [ 10] (+ 2))
16:56	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires an even number of forms in binding vector in sandbox:>
16:56	hyPiRion	,(let [ 10] (+ 2))
16:56	clojurebot	12
16:56	jcromartie	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding
16:57	jcromartie	derp
16:57	amalloy	hyPiRion: binary lambda calculus
16:57	amalloy	http://www.ioccc.org/2012/tromp/hint.html
16:57	jcromartie	"sexpression crimes"
16:58	hyPiRion	amalloy: That looks nice.
16:58	technomancy	gfredericks: I'd trade tabs as non-whitespace for non-breaking space as whitespace
16:58	hyPiRion	I wonder what ' ' munges into.
16:58	amalloy	it's pretty amazing, yes. i'm glad the IOCCC is finally back in business
16:59	hyPiRion	We should have IOCLJCC, so that people could hone their Swearjure skills.
17:00	technomancy	lightning talk on swearjure at clojurewest
17:00	gfredericks	"Ew, look at those swearjure skills. Have you thought about maybe honing them?"
17:00	gfredericks	TimMc: now you have to come to clojurewest
17:01	TimMc	That's what I hear.
17:01	hyPiRion	What, Swearjure is a topic on Clojurewest?
17:01	hyPiRion	like, an actual talk?
17:01	gfredericks	TimMc is presenting
17:02	hyPiRion	They better be filming it
17:02	hyPiRion	/s/be filming/film/
17:02	gfredericks	with lots of bleeps
17:02	TimMc	gfredericks: You are such a troublemaker.
17:02	gfredericks	TimMc: I still can't believe they made it a keynote
17:03	TimMc	I hear that next year it will be SwearjureWest
17:03	gfredericks	TimMc: quick what's the smallest swearjure expression that evaluates to "conf"
17:04	TimMc	Not sure I can do that.
17:04	TimMc	I could probably get you some of those letters as chars.
17:05	gfredericks	I think this is a minimum requirement for you having your own conference
17:05	TimMc	It's a shame that inc doesn't work on chars.
17:06	TimMc	I could produce a seq which, when pretty-printed, shows a raster rendering of "CONF" though.
17:06	TimMc	I'm not going to, mind you.
17:06	gfredericks	good to know
17:07	technomancy	is that a threat then? =)
17:07	hyPiRion	TimMc: I'll make one for you. For free and all.
17:08	TimMc	aw
17:08	abp	What to use to internationalize libs for web development?
17:09	abp	There's tower, using an atom for the whole config, but I haven't thougt about wether that's good..
17:10	TimMc	,(`[~@(`[~@'`(~+)](*))](+))
17:10	clojurebot	clojure.core/concat
17:10	bawr	abp: internationalize... libs?
17:10	bawr	I'm not sure I follow
17:11	abp	bawr, yes, validation with default translations and the like.. Well mostly validation libraries..
17:11	augustl	TimMc: can clojurebot do JavaScript? :)
17:12	bawr	abp: what are you trying to achieve?
17:13	augustl	abp: I like to use thread local variables for config in servlet settings
17:14	augustl	s/servlet settings/servlets/
17:14	reiddraper	hyPiRion: '{foo, A, bar, B} != {bar, B, foo, A},', correct, but that's not something people do in erlang, idiomatically anyway
17:15	hyPiRion	gfredericks: I demand that "Macros: Why, When, and How" should be renamed into "Why `{~% ~@%} is legal Clojure and how to utilize it".
17:15	abp	bawr: Using https://github.com/jkk/formative in a german web app. It uses https://github.com/jkk/verily for validation. I can overwrite the messages all the time, for each validation definition, but changing the defaults would be cleaner.
17:16	hyPiRion	*will
17:16	gfredericks	hyPiRion: aaack!
17:16	bawr	abp: Oooh, I see.
17:16	hyPiRion	reiddraper: Okay, thanks for confirming.
17:16	hyPiRion	(inc reiddraper)
17:16	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:16	bawr	abp: In that case, not sure. :-)
17:16	abp	augustl, so your approach sure would work, to define translation maps in different ns or one gigantic translation map for all supported languages.
17:17	pjstadig	i'm going to start a mechanical turk service for obfuscating clojure code, that is basically just a bridge to this irc channel
17:17	augustl	abp: didn't think of the limitation in most validation frameworks of messages being hardcoded and/or only settable once
17:17	bawr	pjstadig: pshaw! make a bot thhat learns obfuscations for this channel.
17:18	bawr	*FROM
17:18	hyPiRion	pjstadig: "Hello guys, how do you do (mapv + [1 2 3] [4 5 6]) in swearjure?"
17:18	bawr	arrgh
17:18	augustl	abp: one hack could of course be to make the messages strings of localization tokens etc
17:18	hyPiRion	Meh, I'm still frustrated that I can't do vararg mapv in Swearjure.
17:19	TimMc	vararg mapv?
17:19	TimMc	That's (mapv f v1 v2 ...)?
17:19	hyPiRion	TimMc: Variable maps, yesh.
17:20	hyPiRion	I can't do apply or partial, that's the issue.
17:21	abp	augustl, sure, but I prefer to "solve" that not only for my app(s).
17:21	hyPiRion	Oh hey, I think I can do quicksort in Swearjure. Going to take me some time though.
17:22	hiredman	why don't you just write a clojure to sweajure compiler?
17:22	hiredman	then you are done
17:23	bawr	that would be cheating
17:23	bawr	unless it's written in swearjure
17:23	hiredman	after you write it you would run it on it
17:24	hyPiRion	hiredman: TimMc has something on that, but I want to figure out if we can map every piece of Clojure to Swearjure. We have some issues with eval, apply, partial etc right now.
17:24	bawr	*unless it's written in swearjure to begin with
17:27	TimMc	hiredman: I've started work on one that translates a very limited subset of Clojure.
17:28	gfredericks	is core.logic good for handling code yet?
17:29	gfredericks	e.g., vectors vs seqs?
17:29	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Actually, I think it may be interesting. Let me find the link of something which may be relevant.
17:30	hyPiRion	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q9x16uIsKA#t=1104s
17:30	dnolen	gfredericks: we try to preserve the original type. Far as dealing w/ source there are a couple more tweaks to be made - but making it easy to work with source is a goal.
17:30	hyPiRion	If we filter out those with alphanumerics, then we're good to go.
17:30	gfredericks	dnolen: and then let the quine generation begin?
17:31	TimMc	Generation Quine
17:31	gfredericks	"A new generation of programmers who call themselves 'The Quine Generation' have ..."
17:31	hyPiRion	developed a Swearjure Quine.
17:32	dnolen	gfredericks: heh, well you can already do that today - generate quines relational that can be passed to eval.
17:32	dnolen	relationally
17:34	gfredericks	so you (defn evalo [expr res] ...)?
17:35	technomancy	http://ceaude.twoticketsplease.de/js-lisps.html
17:35	dnolen	gfredericks: if you mean to ask if you do what Will & Dan demo at their talks - yes
17:36	gfredericks	technomancy: where's the corresponding list of JS impls written in lisp?
17:36	technomancy	gfredericks: []
17:36	technomancy	actually I think there's one
17:37	gfredericks	this demonstrates that lisp is not JS-complete
17:37	qz	how do i make thread-local var? i'm doing (def ^:dynamic var (SomeClass.)) and i'm getting crashes because of not synchnorized access to the SomeClass object
17:37	technomancy	[https://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/js2/semantics/README?force=1]
17:37	gfredericks	qz: its value is not thread-local until you use binding
17:37	TimMc	Is it possibly to tell programmatically that a Clojure macro is hygienic?
17:37	gfredericks	qz: so (def ^:dynamic var) (binding [var (SomeClass.)] (do stuff))
17:38	gfredericks	TimMc: something to do with &env maybe?
17:38	qz	gfredericks: aha, will try now
17:39	amalloy	qz: you can also use https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/utils.clj#L197 to create a real ThreadLocal object
17:39	devlol	jcromartie: I googled about compojure + swagger documentation and ended up with a chatlog from this channel. I'm currently on the same path you were on september. Did you pursue this way (generating doc from compojure routes) ?
17:39	jcromartie	ah ha
17:39	amalloy	TimMc: i doubt it
17:39	qz	gfredericks: do i have to work with var only within binding block ?
17:39	jcromartie	devlol: I think the answer is metadata on vars
17:40	qz	amalloy: will take a look, thanks.. but i thought clojure supported thread local vars out of the box
17:40	jcromartie	I never got it wokring
17:40	amalloy	it supports manual, temporary redefinition of vars per thread
17:40	jcromartie	but mostly because I was moved off the project after embarassing the Java devs
17:40	jcromartie	:P
17:40	amalloy	it doesn't have anything built-in for automatically giving each thread its own copy of something
17:45	jcromartie	devlol: I do believe that compojure will let you do (defroutes ^{:foo :bar} route-var …)
17:45	jcromartie	then swagger can inspect a namespace
17:46	jcromartie	er
17:46	jcromartie	you can write a routing that inspects a namespace
17:46	jcromartie	to speak Swagger
17:46	devlol	jcromartie: ok, i see. I have something working https://gist.github.com/b15be97304bee4e56092 which can then output json for iodocs
17:47	jcromartie	interesting, did you write your own GET/PUT?
17:48	devlol	yes, i wrote a small lib on top of compojure which allow groups with docs & wrappers
17:49	hyPiRion	TimMc: qsort progress: https://www.refheap.com/paste/40edd5d1d3764c7cbb8aff056
17:50	hyPiRion	It seems fairly straightforward from here on actually, so now we have a useful program without alphanumerics.
17:50	devlol	jcromartie: i'm still unsure about whether use swagger or iodocs and wanted to be sure i was not missing something that may already exist for clojure
17:50	jcromartie	I think they're all kind of silly actually
17:52	jcromartie	I'd rather just see some good human writing.
17:52	jcromartie	because Swagger et al just always seem to end up with some quirk in the API that can't be expressed easily
17:55	devlol	jcromartie: true, however i think having doc in sync with routes definition can be really useful especially if you are in a small team
17:55	jcromartie	yes, definitely
17:58	qz	amalloy: flatland utils worked like charm for thread locals, thanks :)
17:58	Raynes	You're welcome.
18:04	TimMc	hyPiRion: Nice. That looks compilable, too.
18:05	devlol	jcromartie: thank you for your response :)
18:05	hyPiRion	TimMc: Now we can preach the power of Swearjure to everyone
18:05	hyPiRion	I wonder if I ever get to the point where I implement Dijkstra's algorithm in Swearjure.
18:06	TimMc	hyPiRion: I bet that whole thing could be modified to emit a fn instead of taking hardcoded input.
18:06	TimMc	That's the real blocker to adoption, I'm sure of it.
18:07	hyPiRion	TimMc: I'm all ears. How do you do it?
18:07	hyPiRion	The #()'s inside a #(), I mean.
18:08	TimMc	Well, this problem doesn't require a general-case partial.
18:08	TimMc	I don't have a technique yet, just a hunch.
18:08	hyPiRion	I'll have a look after some way of getting partial and apply as well. I need it for my mapv.
18:33	rodnaph	core.logic question - i tried doing (dec x) which i didn't expect to work and didn't - but not sure where to look to explore where to go next - is this anything to do with the fd namespace?
18:43	TimMc	hyPiRion: OK, maybe not. :-)
18:44	hyPiRion	TimMc: :'(
18:45	hyPiRion	This is getting a bit hairy.
18:45	hyPiRion	Oh well.
18:45	TimMc	The central problem is that of binding.
18:47	hyPiRion	Indeed. I have just 12 functions in this qsort, so even larger problems may be hairy.
18:48	hyPiRion	I think the main concern is that of function literals inside function literals.
18:48	TimMc	There's probably some combinator that would provide the necessary currying, but I can't imagine that the combinator could be written without function nesting.
18:49	hyPiRion	TimMc: Have you looked at the #= macro?
18:49	hyPiRion	I couldn't manage to make anonymous functions with it.
18:49	hyPiRion	But maybe there's some loophole
18:52	hyPiRion	OH
18:53	hyPiRion	#= resolves symbols, i.e. #=(+ 1 2) takes the actual symbol and resolves it.
18:53	hyPiRion	If we could just prepare a form to #= and let it read it, we could use apply and concat.
18:54	TimMc	Interesting, but the call-position has to be a literal symbol.
18:54	hyPiRion	Yeah, that's the problem. Hmm.
18:54	TimMc	#=((or + *) 1 2) ;; ClassCastException clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
18:55	hyPiRion	Same for `[#=~(prepare-form)].
18:55	TimMc	...and we don't have read, anyway
18:56	TimMc	I think "(" is the only valid follower of #=.
18:56	TimMc	You can
18:56	TimMc	You can't unquote into the readerm anyhow.
18:57	hyPiRion	Yeah, true.
18:57	TimMc	Oh, we can get various chars, by the way.
18:57	hyPiRion	Oh?
18:57	TimMc	,[\+ \ \"]
18:57	clojurebot	[\+ \space \"]
18:58	hyPiRion	Well, space looks interesting.
18:58	TimMc	We don't have str, int, or char. :-/
18:58	hyPiRion	We don't have much, do we.
19:01	TimMc	,#!/bin/bash
19:01	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
19:02	hyPiRion	,;;what
19:02	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
19:02	hyPiRion	It expects a value before comments/"eof" I suppose
19:04	TimMc	,(. #"" '"test")
19:04	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: quote for class java.util.regex.Pattern>
19:04	TimMc	Bleh.
19:04	TimMc	That "would have worked" in Java.
19:06	TimMc	,'(. #"some-regex" '"test") ;; for clarity
19:06	clojurebot	(. #"some-regex" (quote "test"))
19:06	hyPiRion	Humm
19:07	hyPiRion	I thought that was static
19:07	TimMc	It is.
19:08	TimMc	Java will allow "new Pattern(...).quote(...)".
19:08	hyPiRion	Weird.
19:09	hyPiRion	Maybe it's for uncompiled patterns
19:09	TimMc	What, quote?
19:09	amalloy	TimMc: you can refer to static members non-statically if you want
19:10	hyPiRion	Wait. Hrm.
19:10	amalloy	(in java, not the jvm)
19:10	TimMc	amalloy: So Java translates someRegex.quote("") into Patter.quote("")?
19:10	TimMc	*Pattern
19:10	hyPiRion	That makes sense.
19:10	amalloy	javac does that, yes
19:10	hyPiRion	TimMc: Try out ((Pattern) null).quote(...)
19:11	amalloy	i presume it still produces someRegex and then throws it away, in case of side effects
19:11	TimMc	Ah, sure.
19:11	TimMc	Well, I'll sleep on it.
19:11	Raynes	Sleep!?!?!111!
19:12	Raynes	It's only 4:12PM!
19:12	Raynes	It's awesome how quickly I stop caring about my old timezone after I've moved to a different one.
19:12	hyPiRion	Raynes: 1:12 am here.
19:12	cbp	hi
19:13	hyPiRion	Raynes: But you were up very late for some weeks ago for your timezone, I think?
19:13	Raynes	I was always up late for my timezone, hyPiRion.
19:13	Raynes	I used to go to sleep at 7AM.
19:13	cbp	Is there a sqrt function around that returns a BigDecimal?
19:13	Raynes	Now I have to get up at like 8:45AM. It's ruthless, this.
19:13	callenbot	Raynes: I wake up at 6:30 am so I can commute for 1:45 each way.
19:13	yedi	i'm starting a webapp in clojure, how should I go about getting up to speed w/ clojure on the web? my plan is to checkout the compojure and ring docs/tuts, but if anyone knows of other great resources lemme know
19:14	callenbot	Raynes: fuck you man :(
19:14	callenbot	I figured out my request context thingy I wanted.
19:14	Raynes	callenbot: Yeah, I'll probably have to get up earlier if they move the office. I already have to take a 40 minute or so bus.
19:14	callenbot	it's a dynamic var of an atom of a map.
19:14	callenbot	Raynes: that's pretty bad for most people actually.
19:14	Raynes	callenbot: Any new music for me? I'm sitting in the office jamming in the corner.
19:14	cbp	or more like a nicely precise sqrt function
19:16	callenbot	Raynes: http://toogl.es/#/view/VeU5bM_ccXo
19:16	hyPiRion	cbp: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1384919/are-there-libraries-for-square-root-over-bigdecimal
19:16	hyPiRion	So apparently it's uglier than I suspected.
19:16	Raynes	callenbot: What is this crap?
19:16	callenbot	Raynes: the closest thing I could find to Firefly-esque music.
19:17	callenbot	Raynes: want some unicorn rainbows instead?
19:17	Raynes	No, I meant this website.
19:17	callenbot	Raynes: angularjs magick.
19:17	cbp	thank you
19:19	callenbot	also I need to remember to run the type-hinted laser results and integrate them into the test results.
19:19	callenbot	Raynes: don't let me forget ^^
19:20	callenbot	Raynes: what did you see when you ran them?
19:20	tmciver	callenbot: what's the video from?
19:20	Raynes	Uh, I can't remember. It was a little faster, callenbot.
19:30	callenbot	tmciver: I didn't pay any attention to that bit. I just wanted the music.
19:31	callenbot	Raynes: cool, I'll post the results tonight.
19:31	tmciver	Ah, looked kinda cool.
19:31	tmciver	I was especially interested because you mentioned Firefly.
19:32	callenbot	tmciver: I think the movie is Final Fantasy or something.
19:32	Raynes	I guess I should watch that show.
19:32	callenbot	Raynes: firefly is godly.
19:32	tmciver	callenbot: yeah, looks like it.
19:32	Frozenlock	Raynes: yes, do it.
19:32	callenbot	Raynes: I don't even like TV usually and Firefly was worth every minute.
19:32	Frozenlock	And then the movie.
19:32	Raynes	I saw one episode.
19:32	tmciver	Yes! Best Sci-Fi TV show to be cancelled after one season, ever!
19:32	ohpauleez	You have to stick with it
19:32	Raynes	It was kind of meh.
19:32	ohpauleez	watch them in order
19:33	ohpauleez	then the movie
19:33	Raynes	I've never watched a show out of order. Except for Family Guy and such.
19:33	tmciver	Raynes: you watch your mouth!
19:33	ohpauleez	then you'll be like, "now I understand"
19:33	Raynes	But yeah, I'll watch the rest.
19:33	Raynes	I wasn't turned off by the first episode or anything, I just never got around to watching the rest.
19:33	ohpauleez	Doctor Who is the same way - you need to stick with it, and watch it in order
19:33	ohpauleez	but then you totally get it
19:34	Raynes	Doctor Who <3
19:34	Frozenlock	ohpauleez: I was dissapointed but the last seasons...
19:34	Raynes	Frozenlock: you watch your mouth!
19:34	ohpauleez	Frozenlock: I haven't seen the MOOOOST recent ones
19:34	Frozenlock	*by the last seasons
19:34	Frozenlock	I guess I'm not fond of the new doctor.
19:35	seangrove	Frozenlock: No one ever is
19:35	seangrove	I don't even watch Doctor Who and I know that
19:35	Raynes	I love Matt Smith.
19:36	Raynes	So your argument is invalid.
19:37	Frozenlock	At least he has a bow tie. Bow ties are cool.
19:37	Frozenlock	I also want to critique how they overused the weeping angels.
19:51	imeredith	Frozenlock: i really liked the new doctor - i thought that it would suck without David Tenant, but Matt Smith is better imo
19:52	callenbot	Raynes: http://toogl.es/#/view/0Q35mUz2TOY Listen to a song about Elizabeth Bathory now.
19:54	Frozenlock	imeredith: but what about Christopher Eccleston? :P
19:54	imeredith	i had the same feelings when he left, but he was the worst :P
19:54	combataircraft	what is the clojure equivalent of socket.io?
19:55	technomancy	it wasn't fair to Smith to make him follow Tennant
19:55	imeredith	Amy and Rory have been the best companions so far too
19:55	Raynes	technomancy: That's true.
19:56	imeredith	technomancy: idk, i think it would have been worse for Tennant to follow Smith...
19:59	combataircraft	any ideas?
19:59	technomancy	combataircraft: what is it?
19:59	Raynes	$google socket.io
19:59	lazybot	[Socket.IO: the cross-browser WebSocket for realtime apps.] http://socket.io/
20:00	combataircraft	it's a cool NodeJS library that simplifies real-time communication between server and browser
20:00	ivan	combataircraft: http://thegeez.net/2012/04/03/why_browserchannel.html
20:01	ivan	Socket.IO et al will lose/reorder data
20:01	combataircraft	oh, come on…
20:02	ivan	feel free to think about its HTTP transport for 5 minutes
20:06	Frozenlock	ivan: for someone who isn't very literate in these communication stuff, what's the difference between clj-browserchannel and fetch?
20:07	ivan	Frozenlock: I don't think fetch can push some data from the server to the client
20:08	Frozenlock	Oh! No I don't think so. Or at least I didn't see anything to do so.
20:08	hiredman	amalloy: the "140KB of Clojure source!" made me chuckle
20:08	ivan	(the basic trick to that is keeping an HTTP request open until the server has something to respond with, and the fun part is setting up reliable message queues and ACKs on both sides)
20:09	ivan	BrowserChannel has already implemented everything
20:09	amalloy	hiredman: given clojure's density, that's probably enough to rewrite chrome from the ground up
20:09	hiredman	reason number 64 I refuse to look at midje
20:10	callenbot	hiredman: sorry?
20:10	callenbot	hiredman: I'm not familiar with midje, what don't you like about it?
20:10	amalloy	hiredman: is the 78MB git-clone reason 63 or 65?
20:11	hiredman	amalloy: it's in there somewhere
20:12	amalloy	i shouldn't poke fun, though. midje isn't really my style, but i suspect it's pretty cool if you're into that sort of thing
20:12	hiredman	#1 is the guy who wrote is constantly hitting these kind of issues, can never figure them out, and goes to the clojure mailing list with "what is going on?"
20:12	technomancy	running the tests on load is =(
20:12	Raynes	Laser's tests use midje. Just cuz.
20:12	Raynes	technomancy: Well, you can wrap them in deftests if you want.
20:12	hiredman	you'd think after the second time he would have stopped and learned some clojure/jvm internals
20:13	technomancy	also: macros and dynamic binding over simple things like with-redefs
20:14	hiredman	to steal a turn of phrase from technomancy: it's clown shoes
20:14	technomancy	callenbot: the biggest reason though is just that you can do so much with only learning 2 forms from clojure.test, and anything that adds additional concepts on top of that should have to pay significant dividends for additional conceptual overhead
20:15	callenbot	technomancy: it did seem like an awful lot of code.
20:15	hiredman	running tests are load is horrible, I wasn't aware it did that
20:15	callenbot	technomancy: I'm not convinced clojure.test isn't fine. OTOH, I'm one of those Python people that like unittest/unittest2 fine.
20:15	technomancy	relevant: http://technomancy.us/118
20:16	amalloy	hiredman: that's just a bad convention, at least, and not an actual requirement. he just has (fact ...) instead of (deftest foo (fact ...)) like any sane person would recommend
20:16	callenbot	technomancy: this is fucking sweet, thans.
20:16	callenbot	technomancy: I've made a lot of progress in hacking up web apps in Clojure. I'm beginning to settle on a micro-framework
20:17	callenbot	technomancy: thanks for posting bludgeon, I like it.
20:17	callenbot	technomancy: this is actually a good sanity checker for libraries.
20:18	technomancy	it's really not, but it does make a point
20:18	Raynes	technomancy: You're getting more cynical than I am, I think.
20:19	technomancy	Raynes: heh, that post was from 2008
20:19	Raynes	technomancy: I was referring to the message right before I said that.
20:19	Frozenlock	Does one get more, or less cynical with time?
20:19	technomancy	...which is right around the time I stopped doing ruby, actually. hm.
20:19	abp	callenbot: will your micro-framework be released?
20:19	technomancy	Raynes: well, I mean it's a joke.
20:20	ivan	would anyone but me have a use for a thing that made it easy to turn Clojure output into org-mode trees? I've often had a need for something as simple as stdout but with collapsible trees. (The annoying part is getting streaming output working)
20:20	technomancy	you have to think about conceptual overhead vs value provided, and I don't think either can be measured with `wc -l`
20:20	gfredericks	has somebody mentioned running bludgeon on itself yet?
20:21	technomancy	gfredericks: probably not since 2008
20:21	Frozenlock	ivan: org-mode trees? Like: title 1 *subtitle1 and such?
20:21	gfredericks	oh I didn't realize this wasn't new
20:21	gfredericks	no wonder it's about ruby
20:21	ivan	Frozenlock: right. the idea is that you could look through a big pile of output with a lot less pain
20:23	qz	technomancy: you stopped doing ruby completely, or just switched to clojure for some tasks?
20:23	technomancy	qz: I still use ruby for small things
20:23	technomancy	things under the bludgeon threshold =)
20:23	technomancy	but it's only recently that I've needed it again
20:23	qz	technomancy: but for all web stuff you use clojure now?
20:23	Frozenlock	I see how this could be usefull for maps. But I'm not sure I would take the time to transfer them into a new buffer. But something like it in the repl would be amazing. (with-fold my-map) ----> {:key1 ... \n :key2 ...}
20:23	technomancy	I don't really do much web stuff
20:24	technomancy	just clojars and syme really
20:24	ivan	Frozenlock: yeah, I'll have to do something horrible with nrepl.el
20:25	Frozenlock	ivan: If it's worth something, you have my whole moral support to implement something like this :P
20:25	ivan	cool :)
20:25	qz	technomancy: nice, now i know how proper web app in clojure looks like
20:25	hyPiRion	TimMc: All hail the quicksort: https://www.refheap.com/paste/15a076693ba66105e21b44a1c
20:25	gfredericks	clojars: a proper web app.
20:26	Frozenlock	ivan: actually I just made code to convert a java object into a map. Only problem is when I print it in the repl it's often too big. Folding it would be perfect.
20:26	technomancy	qz: it's pretty good considering its age. we're in a bit of an awkward point right now transitioning between data stores, so it's not as clean as it could be
20:27	yedi	is jdbc pretty much the standard for db manipulation (i'll be using postgresql most likely)
20:27	hyPiRion	Okay, give me a month and I'll make Dijkstra in Swearjure. Better be good.
20:27	gfredericks	yedi: meaning clojure.java.jdbc the contrib lib?
20:27	yedi	yea, it's a contrib lib?
20:28	qz	gfredericks: what do you think about korma for sql stuff?
20:28	yedi	so i guess that means it's basically standard or at teh very least a really great api
20:28	technomancy	it's not really a shining example of a great API
20:28	technomancy	but it is widely used
20:28	technomancy	I think there's a rewrite on a branch
20:28	technomancy	(of the API at least)
20:29	gfredericks	qz: I think lots of conflicting things
20:29	craigbro	hehe
20:29	technomancy	^ talking about c.j.jdbc
20:30	yedi	qz: korma is another popular option? have you used it and if so how'd you like it?
20:32	qz	yedi: it works and i like the api, but again, i'm new to clojure and we should listen to more experienced people here ;)
20:33	gfredericks	hyPiRion: "Practical Swearjure"?
20:33	yedi	just found this: https://github.com/korma/Korma/issues/62
20:34	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Yeah, you can use Quicksort to sort a vector.
20:34	hyPiRion	If that isn't practical then I don't know.
20:34	gfredericks	technomancy: my favorite is #64: "Korma is not simple."
20:34	gfredericks	yedi: ^ meant that for you
20:34	gfredericks	technomancy: ^ did not mean that for you. carry on.
20:34	technomancy	gfredericks: zarro boogs found
20:35	gfredericks	hyPiRion: I just meant it sounds like a book you're working on
20:35	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Do you think it will sell well?
20:36	hyPiRion	I believe a lot of corporations would enjoy using Swearjure as their back-end connecting to their database
20:36	yedi	oh korma is built on top of jdbc
20:36	gfredericks	hyPiRion: yes it will sell quite well
20:37	hyPiRion	It sounds like Korma is built on top of Swearjure by all the bashing of it
20:37	qz	technomancy: but again, writing raw sql becomes boring very soon. what are alternatives besides jdbc?
20:37	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Excellent, I'll start writing today.
20:37	technomancy	qz: if you don't want to write raw SQL you should use Korma or implement something new based on honeysql
20:38	yedi	honeysql looks tasty
20:38	qz	technomancy: i just got used to activerecord for simple db stuff :(
20:38	xeqi	super alpha https://github.com/seancorfield/jsql
20:39	yedi	it's interesting to see the different API approaches
20:40	abp	xeqi: that seems to be in there too: https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/java/jdbc/sql.clj
20:40	xeqi	abp: ah, hadn't looked at the latest c.j.jdbc
20:41	xeqi	I saw the ml post where the dynamic vars are no longer required
20:41	abp	xeqi: for now it looks strange with all the = for everything.
20:44	qz	technomancy: are you gonna migrate from korma in clojars?
20:45	technomancy	qz: yeah, our data set is trivial, so it's not a good fit for SQL at all
20:45	technomancy	we are switching to two in-memory atoms and a lucene index
20:45	qz	technomancy: migrate to.. ?
20:45	qz	oh
20:46	qz	so everything that persists will be stored in lucene?
20:46	technomancy	users/groups will just be in the atom and event logs
20:47	technomancy	deployed artifacts will be in lucene
20:47	technomancy	https://groups.google.com/group/clojars-maintainers/browse_thread/thread/8ea301d80b95a78c
20:48	yedi	if paredit-mode for emacs is working correct, i shouldn't be able to delete closing parens right? and typing an open paren should automatically close it?
20:48	xeqi	technomancy: I seem to remember it might need to be three atoms, but I forget why off hand
20:49	technomancy	xeqi: there are three event logs
20:49	technomancy	but I don't think deploys need to be queried outside lucene
20:51	yedi	oh, i guess paredit doesn't automatically turn on when you open a new buffer
20:54	qz	wish there was paredit for vim that's not horribly broken..
20:54	Raynes	qz: I didn't have trouble with it when I used it. What's wrong with it?
20:54	xeqi_	technomancy: artifact pages for old version wouldn't be in lucene :/
20:55	qz	Raynes: i had problems with <leader>W (it just does W w/out leader) and some other keybindings
20:56	qz	worst of it is that it doesnt work, then you type it again and it works..
20:56	amalloy	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/974a64c06917861b7557fd73154254195b2de548 for anyone who isn't watching the read-eval jira ticket
20:57	Raynes	omg
20:57	qz	and last thing was trying to do <leader>W on "blah" with cursor on first quote.. ("blah") as result ? nooo.. (")blah"
21:03	bttf	anyone had their cljs repl hang on them ? i'm using lein-cljsbuild 0.3.0
21:04	Frozenlock	bttf: what do you mean 'hang on them'. Sometimes (not often) the REPL stop responding. If I look in the js console there's an usually an error from a bad command I entered.
21:06	bttf	well i started a repl server with repl-listen
21:06	bttf	did a simple (+ 2 2) and it hung
21:06	bttf	(+ 2 2) on the cli
21:06	clojurebot	4
21:09	bttf	i see an error with the GET request in the js console on the webpage that im trying to connect to the repl ... maybe its related
21:11	Frozenlock	bttf: You can try to reload the page. Also make sure the repl/connect function is used only after the page is loaded.
21:12	tuor	dauterive: Are you Val who used to work at BNR/Nortel?
21:13	technomancy	xeqi: oh, those can just hit the disk straight
21:13	technomancy	oh, but not the listing
21:14	ChongLi	what sort of data structure would be best at representing the current value of the keyboard?
21:14	ChongLi	I was previously using a set
21:14	georgek	hi, I'm getting a ConcurrentModificationException because I'm removing an element from a Java Set while iterating over it -- the Java HashSet has a remove method (which I'm using) but perhaps Clojure is putting some other iterable in between that's making it not work, or...?
21:14	ChongLi	but I think I need something else to take into account weird contradicting keys
21:14	georgek	I'm doing it in a doseq
21:15	technomancy	xeqi: I think we might just have to change the index to have a latest? y/n field
21:15	technomancy	along with a published_at field
21:23	amalloy	georgek: that's just as illegal in java as what you're doing in clojure. iterators specifically tell you not to do that
21:24	amalloy	if you really, really want to remove items from a set while you iterate it (hint: you don't), you have to use the iterator's .remove method
21:25	ChongLi	is there a data structure which acts like a stack and a set?
21:25	georgek	amalloy: that's the funny thing, I am using the .remove method on HashSet, which says " if the set is modified at any time after the iterator is created, in any way except through the iterator's own remove method, " -- so I need to get an iterator of the hashset first
21:27	georgek	ah, I see, I just need iterator() -- sorry for the noob question
21:27	georgek	this is also a good explanation, http://tech.puredanger.com/2009/02/02/java-concurrency-bugs-concurrentmodificationexception/
21:27	ChongLi	hmm I guess I should just use a list
21:28	georgek	chongli: maybe an ordered set?
21:28	ChongLi	well there's a sorted set
21:28	ChongLi	but I want it sorted like a stack
21:28	amalloy	ChongLi: the best stack+set duo that i know of is a stack and a set glued together
21:29	ChongLi	first in last out
21:29	ChongLi	it's designed to handle keyboard input in an annoying complex way
21:29	ChongLi	the question I keep banging my head into a wall over is what happens when you press left and right at the same time?
21:30	ChongLi	I don't think it should cancel out
21:31	ChongLi	it should always be moving in some direction, allowing you to switch from left to right without stopping in between
21:31	ChongLi	except when no keys are down
21:32	georgek	what are you using to get input?
21:32	ChongLi	flapjax
21:32	ChongLi	(F/extractEventE js/window "keydown")
21:32	ChongLi	eetc.
21:33	ChongLi	merging it all into one event stream that produces a simple value of the keyboard at that moment
21:35	ChongLi	perhaps this is the wrong approach altogether
21:35	ChongLi	hmm
21:40	georgek	when I ask for an iterator() for the HashSet and then do the modification, I then get " Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.util.HashMap$KeyIterator clojure.lang.RT.seqFrom (RT.java:494)"
21:41	georgek	so what is a better idea -- iterate over a copy of the HashSet?
21:43	Frozenlock	ChongLi: I used sets. Not that it should be used as an example. https://github.com/Frozenlock/zyzanie
21:43	xumingmingv	&(.iterator (hash-set 1 2))
21:43	lazybot	⇒ #<SeqIterator clojure.lang.SeqIterator@127a744>
21:43	ChongLi	how does this handle left and right at the same time?
21:44	ChongLi	I guess that doesn't really make sense in emacs
21:44	amalloy	georgek: same way as anything else in clojure: don't mutate things. compute a new set by applying a pure function to the old set, and then use the new one
21:44	Frozenlock	ChongLi: Let me try that...
21:47	tomoj	I think an ordered set makes sense
21:47	tomoj	why do you say LIFO? doesn't the order in which the keyups arrive determine the order in which elements are removed?
21:48	ChongLi	tomoj: you're right
21:49	ChongLi	so what order should the set be in?
21:49	Frozenlock	ChongLi: Interesting... doesn't work :/ I'll have to correct this bug.
21:50	ChongLi	for this example sequence of events: keydown "left" -> keydown "right" -> keyup "left" -> keyup "right"
21:50	tomoj	#{} #{:left} #{:left :right} #{:right} #{}
21:50	tomoj	ordered set could implement IPersistentStack so peek would be the most recent key
21:50	ChongLi	yeah I get that part
21:51	tomoj	(I meant those as ordered sets)
21:51	ChongLi	what I want to know is what direction will be resolved during each step of that sequence
21:51	ChongLi	I don't want contradicting keys to cancel out
21:52	ChongLi	this allows you to chord from left to right without stopping in the middle
21:52	ChongLi	or having some weird reversal of direction
21:52	tomoj	doesn't peek give you the direction you want on the events above?
21:53	ChongLi	let me try
21:53	tomoj	..assuming it returns the last element of the ordered set, the most recent key
21:53	dnolen	core.logic protocols/interface finally moved into their own namespace, hacking on core.logic should now be less tedious
21:59	ChongLi	I think I'll just use a list and just use contains? to prevent duplicates
21:59	ChongLi	is that idiomatic? heh
22:00	tomoj	use contains?, on a list?
22:00	ChongLi	why not?
22:00	dnolen	ChongLi: contains? only works on associative data structures
22:01	tomoj	&(contains? '(1 2 3) 2)
22:01	lazybot	⇒ false
22:01	ChongLi	hmm
22:01	ChongLi	guess I have to use some
22:03	ChongLi	yeah this works really well
22:03	ChongLi	some and remove
22:04	ChongLi	I'm still using sets though (for the predicate) :)
22:05	S11001001	ChongLi: sorted maps pointing to constant values are sorted sets
22:05	ChongLi	I'm not sure I follow
22:05	ChongLi	I want a set that preserves insertion order
22:07	piranha	Frozenlock: speaking about key bindings handling, I recently wrote JS lib for that and instead of binding to elements I choose the way of manually enabled namespaces. I was really determined to do former, but then experience turned out to be that in my case context of key bindings has changed, but focus is somewhere not on the actual nested element (i.e. in menu, where you just switched a tab or something). I'm not sure what I'm trying to te
22:07	piranha	ll, just sharing experience. :)
22:08	Frozenlock	piranha: what do you mean manually enabled namespaces?
22:09	Frozenlock	Oh you just missed what I asked didn't you...
22:09	Frozenlock	piranha: what do you mean manually enabled namespaces?
22:09	piranha	Frozenlock: https://github.com/piranha/keymage#scopes
22:09	piranha	no, I somehow got it :)
22:10	S11001001	ChongLi: ah
22:10	tomoj	ChongLi: right, an ordered set
22:10	tomoj	https://github.com/flatland/ordered
22:10	Frozenlock	piranha: What is chat, if not an element?
22:10	tomoj	no cljs though :(
22:10	ChongLi	yeah I'm on cljs
22:10	tomoj	I'll port it someday
22:10	piranha	Frozenlock: just an arbitrary chosen name for a scope
22:11	piranha	Frozenlock: so let's imagine I have multiple sections in my application, and I can switch between them (it's a single-page app), then when I go to chat, I call setScope('chat')
22:11	piranha	and when I go to contact list management, I call setScope('contacts')
22:11	tomoj	as a stopgap for implementing an ordered set you could just write your own functions that work with a vector and set
22:11	tomoj	ordered-conj etc
22:12	Frozenlock	Isn't it the same as a container with "chat"?
22:12	Frozenlock	Oh I see, it could be divided into two parts in the page...
22:12	piranha	Frozenlock: and when in chat, if I press some 'search for a contact' button, I do pushScope('quicksearch'), which handles some shortcuts for this search
22:12	ChongLi	using a list with some, conj and remove seems to work well enough
22:12	piranha	Frozenlock: exactly!
22:12	ChongLi	some to guard against duplicate insertion
22:12	piranha	that was my problem with elements
22:12	piranha	when you switched with a mouse, your focus is not in the #chat, but in #menu
22:12	tomoj	yeah.. since the number of keys pressed will always be small
22:13	ChongLi	yeah it's not like I'm dealing with a long list
22:13	tomoj	a list could be faster than an ordered set anyway
22:13	ChongLi	yeah the constant factor with a list is fairly small
22:13	ChongLi	though I'm not sure how it works in cljs
22:14	Frozenlock	piranha: I dealt with the focus problem with this: https://github.com/Frozenlock/zyzanie/blob/master/src/zyzanie/core.cljs#L295
22:15	Frozenlock	piranha: I'm not really sure I understand your problem with chat VS menu however :P
22:17	piranha	Frozenlock: <ul id="menu"><li data-tab="chat">chat</li></ul><div id="tabs"><div id="chat"></div></div> - your focus is in #menu, since you just clicked 'chat' li. Your shortcuts, which are bound to #chat, won't work.
22:17	piranha	that was my main problem
22:19	Frozenlock	piranha: ah ok. What did you do? Manually changed the focus when pressed a tab?
22:21	piranha	argh, my connection is abysmal
22:21	Frozenlock	from 1 min ago:
22:21	Frozenlock	piranha: ah ok. What did you do? Manually changed the focus when pressed a tab?
22:21	piranha	Frozenlock: well, I just do keymage.setScope('chat') there :)
22:21	piranha	I really don't want to play with focus :))
22:22	piranha	so all my shortcuts are global, but then application switches scopes when it needs to
22:24	Frozenlock	I like that. Stealing focus was really a dirty hack on my part.
22:24	Frozenlock	In fact the whole lot is a dirty hack from when I was learning cljs (without ever touching JS).
22:25	xeqi	amalloy: the whitelist in the read-eval change allows you to remove namespaces :/
22:28	xeqi	hmmm, what inherits from clojure.lang.Fn?
22:30	dnolen	read eval fix from rhickey - http://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/974a64c06917861b7557fd73154254195b2de548, http://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/38a129f2631a75ed999b52d8e0440f730b00da1f
22:31	ChongLi	yay!
22:32	dnolen	and fixes to support flexvec in 1.5.0, hells yeah!
22:32	Frozenlock	\o/
22:32	ChongLi	some weird commit message
22:32	ChongLi	doesn't seem related!
22:33	ChongLi	I guess github abbreviates it
22:33	ChongLi	ah yeah
22:34	ChongLi	this is basically a must if we're going to be able to trust edn right?
22:35	ChongLi	otherwise users could stick arbitrary clojure code in there and it'd be eval'd?
22:35	Frozenlock	If you read it.
22:36	technomancy	you can fix the default yourself without this
22:36	technomancy	technically this just helps catch cases where you forgot to rebind it when reading user data
22:36	xeqi	I actually think this commit is bad
22:36	ChongLi	why?
22:36	clojurebot	ChongLi: because you can't handle the truth!
22:37	technomancy	but since the consequences of getting it wrong are so bad and the likelihood of actually realizing it if you did make that mistake, the default matters all the more
22:37	dnolen	technomancy: the patch actually fixes more - classForName via the read no longer loads classes.
22:37	dnolen	(I think)
22:37	xeqi	with that patch (read-string "#=(clojure.lang.Namespace/remove user)") will remove the namespace
22:37	xeqi	testing it for more holes atm
22:38	ChongLi	did you look further down?
22:38	ChongLi	#= has been changed
22:38	ChongLi	to include a quote
22:38	xeqi	I typed it into a 1.5.0-RC5
22:38	ChongLi	#="
22:38	technomancy	oh, I haven't read the patch
22:38	xeqi	which is on sonatype-oss with this commit
22:39	ChongLi	1864
22:39	ChongLi	- w.write("#="); 1870
22:39	ChongLi	+ w.write("#=\"");
22:39	ChongLi	gah, tabs
22:41	dnolen	xeqi: it's RC6 that has those commits
22:43	xeqi	dnolen: RC5 has https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/974a64c06917861b7557fd73154254195b2de548
22:43	xeqi	but I missed the RC6 release
22:43	xeqi	pulling that now
22:55	ivan	nice find re: that hole
22:58	dnolen	xeqi: oh anything on the read-whitelist
22:59	xeqi	dnolen: yep, just send off to -dev
22:59	xeqi	*sent
23:01	dnolen	xeqi: yeah, seems like only find is really needed
23:06	yedi	this line throws an "Unparsable namespace form:" error -- (ns skateproj.db (:use korma.db))
23:09	Frozenlock	ivan: I don't but I'm bound to forget it one day or another.
23:16	ivan	user> (ns skateproj.db (:use korma.db))
23:16	ivan	CompilerException java.lang.ClassFormatError: Truncated class file, compiling:(clojure/java/jdbc.clj:299:3)
23:19	yedi	i just ran it in the repl (instead of lein ring server) and i got this instead: FileNotFoundException Could not locate korma/db__init.class or korma/db.clj on classpath: clojure.lang.RT.load (RT.java:432)
23:20	ivan	a repl started by lein repl?
23:21	amalloy	xeqi: the Collection and Map entries on the whitelist scare me way more than Namespace
23:22	xeqi	amalloy: why so?
23:22	amalloy	even using a non-classloading version of Class/forName there's got to be potential for invoking static methods on dangerous subclasses of Map
23:23	technomancy	a dos via Namespace/remove is a pretty serious improvement over arbitrary execution still =)
23:23	xeqi	technomancy: theres no workaround in RC6 tho
23:25	ivan	just have to bind read-whitelist too now
23:25	xeqi	amalloy: true, I was looking for a class with fun static methods earlier
23:25	ivan	the tribal knowledge expands
23:25	xeqi	ivan: ... your right
23:25	xeqi	thanks
23:26	xeqi	amalloy: the non-classloading version of Class/forname means no static initializer problems right?
23:26	yedi	ivan: nrepl in emacs
23:26	amalloy	probably, though i haven't looked at it
23:27	ivan	yedi: did you use nrepl-jack-in to start it? did it find the right project.clj? does that project.clj mention korma?
23:28	tomoj	is there a flexmap which supports fast merge?
23:29	xeqi	#=(var ..) looks dangerous, but would require some application code to help it
23:29	yedi	my project.clj has korma as a dependency
23:30	yedi	ivan: i did use nrepl-jack-in
23:30	yedi	not sure if it found the right project.clj, though i assume so
23:31	amalloy	xeqi: the application code would have to be explicitly setting read-eval to true, right?
23:32	amalloy	so i don't think there's any need to worry about that
23:35	ivan	nope, #=(var does things with read-eval false
23:35	xeqi	amalloy: even with false and RC6, using #=(var ..) causes it to return the resolved var;
23:36	xeqi	imagine someone expecting a map and doing (expected-map :x)
23:43	yedi	all the dependencies in project.clj get added to your classpath right?
23:48	mabes	anyone know of a command-line friendly debugger for clojure?