#clojure – 2013-01-30

2013-01-30

00:00	ChongLi	okay flapjax is really cool
00:00	piranha	it is :)
00:00	ChongLi	I made a nice eventstream that simply consists of a set that contains all the keycodes of currently pressed keys
00:01	ChongLi	so much nicer than dealing with annoying repeating events and crap like that
00:09	julienddd	Hi all, getting this exception with clostache: No implementation of method: :make-reader of protocol: #'clojure.java.io/IOFactory found for class: nil
00:10	julienddd	Any ideas ?
00:10	julienddd	(im noob)
00:10	xumingmingv	I guess you are passing a nil to the function you are invoking
00:10	xumingmingv	(I havn't used clostacheE)
00:12	julienddd	(defroutes admin-routes (GET "/" [] ((render-resource "templates/global.html" {:html "<p>Hey this works??</p>"}))))
00:12	julienddd	Thats my code, so I'm assuming the file is not found
00:12	julienddd	xumingmingv: thanks
00:14	julienddd	Another question: what is the difference between (use 'clostache.parser) and (use clostache.parser)?
00:14	julienddd	what do those ' do in front of expressions?
00:14	TimMc	Quoting. It suppresses evaluation.
00:15	julienddd	TimMc: what is the difference with :
00:15	julienddd	TimMc: :something
00:15	ChongLi	: is for keywords
00:15	ChongLi	:hi evaluates to :hi
00:15	julienddd	and 'hi to hi ?
00:16	ChongLi	yeah
00:16	ChongLi	but hi might evaluate to anything
00:16	ChongLi	depends on how you def'd it
00:17	ChongLi	when you say 'hi you're not talking about the value
00:18	ChongLi	you're talking about the symbol hi
00:18	ChongLi	you can use quoted symbols even when they're not bound to anything
00:18	julienddd	ChongLi: Ok, but how is that so much different from :hi ?
00:19	ChongLi	:hi is always :hi
00:19	julienddd	appart from being able to skip the starting ':'
00:19	ChongLi	it never means anything else
00:19	xumingmingv	&(type 'hi)
00:19	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.Symbol
00:19	xumingmingv	&(type :hi)
00:19	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.Keyword
00:19	TimMc	julienddd: The ns macro could have been written to take symbols instead of keywords, but it wasn't.
00:19	ChongLi	it's just used for things like as a key in a map
00:19	julienddd	ok I see
00:19	ChongLi	&{:hi "hello"}
00:19	lazybot	⇒ {:hi "hello"}
00:20	ChongLi	&({:hi "hello"} :hi)
00:20	lazybot	⇒ "hello"
00:20	julienddd	but I can do &{'hi "hello"}
00:20	ChongLi	yes
00:20	julienddd	&{'hi "hello"}
00:20	lazybot	⇒ {hi "hello"}
00:20	ChongLi	you can really do anything you want with maps
00:20	julienddd	now if I (def hi ...) somewhere
00:21	ChongLi	&{'(a b c) "hello"}
00:21	lazybot	⇒ {(a b c) "hello"}
00:21	julienddd	are they potential problems if I use 'hi ?
00:21	ChongLi	no
00:21	ChongLi	you're still only using the symbol
00:21	julienddd	is that the dif between symbol and keyw ?
00:21	julienddd	ok
00:21	ChongLi	here's the real advantage of keywords
00:21	ChongLi	they can be called like functions
00:21	ChongLi	&(:hi {:hi "h"})
00:21	lazybot	⇒ "h"
00:21	julienddd	&{'hi "hello"}
00:21	lazybot	⇒ {hi "hello"}
00:22	julienddd	&({:hi "hello"} :hi)
00:22	lazybot	⇒ "hello"
00:22	julienddd	that's cool
00:22	TimMc	,('hi {'hi 4} 5)
00:22	clojurebot	4
00:22	TimMc	Symbols can do it too. :-P
00:22	ChongLi	haha
00:22	julienddd	ok thanks for the clarification guys
00:23	ChongLi	isn't there a performance gain from using keywords?
00:23	julienddd	so I guess they could be interchangeable
00:23	ChongLi	at least on jvm
00:23	TimMc	They have different purposes.
00:23	julienddd	but convention has it that keywords are for maps, etc and symbols for namespaces ??
00:23	lazybot	julienddd: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
00:23	julienddd	is that right ?
00:23	TimMc	julienddd: Symbols are ultimately intended to be used to name things (locals, vars...).
00:23	ChongLi	symbols are usually used when you want to talk about the names of things
00:24	julienddd	TimMc: but what's the advantage of (def 'hi "...")
00:24	julienddd	over (def hi "...")
00:24	TimMc	One works and the other doesn't.
00:24	ChongLi	&(eval (cons '+ '(1 2 3)))
00:24	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! eval is bad!
00:24	ChongLi	ahhh
00:25	ChongLi	anyway, what I typed would return 6
00:25	julienddd	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: First argument to def must be a Symbol, compiling:
00:25	julienddd	for (def 'hi "...")
00:25	TimMc	Yep.
00:25	TimMc	That's (def (quote hi) ...)
00:25	julienddd	but:
00:25	julienddd	&(type 'hi)
00:25	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.Symbol
00:25	julienddd	so it's a symbol ???
00:25	lazybot	julienddd: Yes, 100% for sure.
00:26	ChongLi	haha
00:26	TimMc	julienddd: The difference between what a macro sees and what the evaluator sees.
00:26	ChongLi	&(type '(+ 1 2 3))
00:26	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.PersistentList
00:26	ChongLi	think about it this way
00:26	TimMc	(OK, def isn't actually a macro, but close enouhg for this discussion.)
00:27	ChongLi	an expression in clojure is just a list where the first element is a symbol
00:27	ChongLi	or another expression that evaluates to a symbol
00:27	xumingmingv	<lazybot> julienddd: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
00:28	xumingmingv	when will lazybot jump out and say something like this?
00:28	ChongLi	I think when you use more than one ??
00:28	lazybot	ChongLi: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
00:28	Raynes	xumingmingv: Who knows!?!??
00:28	lazybot	Raynes: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
00:28	julienddd	lol
00:28	Raynes	He gets all excited when he sees multiple question marks.
00:28	Raynes	This is amalloy's doing.
00:29	Raynes	ls
00:29	lazybot	boot etc mnt proc srv usr
00:29	ChongLi	it's great stuff
00:29	julienddd	cd usr
00:29	julienddd	no??
00:29	lazybot	julienddd: Definitely not.
00:29	ChongLi	hey howcome lazybot doesn't allow 5 defs?
00:29	ChongLi	you demo'd that in your talk
00:29	ChongLi	(clojail)
00:29	TimMc	julienddd: For now, anytime you see '... read it as (quote ...)
00:30	julienddd	ok, thanks
00:30	Raynes	ChongLi: Because it (for no particular reason) runs everyone's code in the same namespace. The limiting is for memory mostly, it doesn't do any good if people overwrite existing clojure.core vars.
00:30	TimMc	,''''x
00:30	clojurebot	(quote (quote (quote x)))
00:30	xumingmingv	lazybot, you are interesting??
00:30	lazybot	xumingmingv: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
00:30	julienddd	clojure gets more exciting everytime i learn about it
00:31	ChongLi	Raynes: ah I thought you could prevent people defing over existing vars
00:31	Raynes	It could work exactly like tryclj does, but I haven't bothered because it's pretty rare that people want to def things and if they do they probably should be using their own REPL anyways.
00:31	Raynes	Naw, not without giving everyone a different namespace like tryclj does.
00:31	ChongLi	ah
00:32	Raynes	Nice that you watched my talk. <3
00:32	Raynes	Were you there was I gave it?
00:32	ChongLi	no
00:32	ChongLi	I just got into clojure recently
00:32	ChongLi	I've been watching a lot of the talks
00:32	Raynes	It's horribly out of date now, and the testers and such work entirely different now (all function based with serializable functions), but the concept remains the same.
00:33	ChongLi	yours was one of the best talks I think
00:33	Raynes	<3
00:33	ChongLi	some of the other speakers weren't as comfortable
00:33	Raynes	That was the first and only talk I've ever given.
00:34	ChongLi	yeah, you nailed it with the humor
00:34	xumingmingv	ChongLi: watch on the vimeo?
00:34	ChongLi	youtube
00:34	ChongLi	http://www.youtube.com/user/ClojureTV
00:34	xumingmingv	thanks for the link
00:36	julienddd	Ok, last question I swear: why does (:use clostache.parser) fail and (:use 'clostache.parser) work ?
00:36	julienddd	and question part b) :P
00:36	julienddd	what is the diff between (:use ...) and (use ... )
00:36	julienddd	if any ?
00:36	luoluoluo	hi, how can I re-require a .clj after I modifying it?
00:37	luoluoluo	I mean in lein repl
00:37	mybuddymichael	luoluoluo: (require 'my-ns :reload)
00:37	ChongLi	(:use clostache.parser) fails because clostache.parser is undefined at the time
00:37	Raynes	Step one: use stencil
00:37	julienddd	ah, makes sense
00:38	ChongLi	you're telling it to get the value of clostache.parser and :use whatever that is
00:38	ChongLi	for question b
00:38	ChongLi	the difference is that (:use ...) is part of the ns form
00:38	ChongLi	whereas (use ...) is just a function
00:39	julienddd	ok... I need to read up on that ns form thing
00:39	ChongLi	what language did you come from?
00:39	julienddd	java javascript
00:39	luoluoluo	mybuddymichael: thanks, I just tried (use 'my-ns :reload), it seems work, what's the difference
00:39	clojurebot	I'm no man, and she's no lady!
00:39	julienddd	obj C
00:39	ChongLi	the ns form in clojure is for working with namespaces
00:39	xumingmingv	haha clojurebot also jumps out
00:40	ChongLi	a namespace just gives you a separate "batch" of names to work with
00:40	ChongLi	so that you can use the same name multiple times in different files without overlap
00:40	julienddd	sorry, what's a form in cloj?
00:40	julienddd	anything in () ?
00:40	ChongLi	and it gives you ways of managing those names
00:41	ChongLi	yeah a form is another word for an s-expression
00:41	ChongLi	it usually refers to special forms
00:41	ChongLi	and a special form is anything that's not a function nor a macro
00:42	ChongLi	but everything is used the same way, even if each thing works differently (in terms of semantics)
00:42	julienddd	like def
00:43	ChongLi	&(+ 1 2 3)
00:43	lazybot	⇒ 6
00:43	ChongLi	so in this case, + is a function applied to 1 2 3
00:43	julienddd	yeah, that much I had grasped
00:44	julienddd	still confused on macros vs. funcs
00:44	ChongLi	in the case of functions, the values 1 2 3 are evaluated before the function is called
00:44	julienddd	and special forms, why are they special? they're the low level building blocks ?
00:44	ChongLi	&(+ (+ 3 4) 3)
00:44	lazybot	⇒ 10
00:44	ChongLi	in this case
00:44	ChongLi	it first evaluates to
00:44	ChongLi	&(+ 7 3)
00:44	lazybot	⇒ 10
00:44	ChongLi	before reaching 10
00:44	TimMc	julienddd: They're what the compiler-writers decided couldn't (or shouldn't) be implemented in terms of other in-language constructs. So... yes. :-)
00:45	ChongLi	special forms and macros don't necessarily have to evaluate their arguments before using them
00:45	julienddd	and macros vs funcs, in a nutshel ?
00:45	ChongLi	(def abc 3)
00:45	julienddd	macros manipulate code ?
00:45	ChongLi	so in this case, abc is NOT evaluated
00:46	ChongLi	cause if it were, it'd be unbound
00:46	julienddd	ok, so that's why (use 'something) needs the '
00:46	julienddd	get it
00:46	ChongLi	this is why you cannot write a function like def
00:46	TimMc	julienddd: Yes, macros are functions from code -> code. The compiler calls them.
00:46	ChongLi	think of it like this
00:46	ChongLi	all lisp code is made up of lists
00:47	ChongLi	a macro is a function that runs at compile time and it transforms a list to a different list
00:47	TimMc	ChongLi: And "atoms", if we're talking Lisp.
00:47	ChongLi	yeah
00:48	ChongLi	julienddd: another simple way to think about it is this:
00:48	ChongLi	functions evaluate each of their arguments once (and only once) before proceeding
00:49	ChongLi	macros can evaluate their arguments 0, 1 or more than 1 time
00:49	ChongLi	this is what makes macros such as when possible
00:49	ChongLi	&(doc when)
00:49	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([test & body]); Evaluates test. If logical true, evaluates body in an implicit do."
00:50	julienddd	yes, if it was a function body would get resolved when called
00:50	julienddd	thanks for clarifying
00:50	julienddd	you guys are very helpful
00:51	ChongLi	no problem
00:51	julienddd	Raynes: why stencil over clostache ?
00:52	xumingmingv	ChongLi: macros evaluate their args more than 1 time? can you give an example?
00:52	ChongLi	xumingmingv: let me see here...
00:53	ChongLi	yeah I can't think of one in a library off the top of my head
00:54	xumingmingv	something like this? (defmacro a [b] ~b ~b)
00:54	ChongLi	yeah
00:55	ChongLi	(defmacro multi-eval [b] `(do ~b ~b))
00:55	ChongLi	try calling that with (multi-eval (println "foo"))
00:56	xumingmingv	ok, got the idea
00:56	ChongLi	&(doc dotimes)
00:56	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([bindings & body]); bindings => name n Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with name bound to integers from 0 through n-1."
00:56	ChongLi	there you go
00:57	ChongLi	multiple evaluation
00:57	ChongLi	in a library function
00:58	ChongLi	library macro, rather
00:58	ChongLi	haha
01:00	xumingmingv	en, never used this macro
01:01	xumingmingv	(haha, I didnt write much clojure..)
01:03	amalloy	i'm consistently surprised by how often the ??/??? heuristic is right, Raynes xumingmingv ChongLi
01:03	ChongLi	???
01:03	lazybot	ChongLi: Oh, absolutely.
01:03	ChongLi	amalloy: doesn't it just match via regex?
01:04	amalloy	??? always generates a "you're right", and ?? generates a "you're wrong"
01:04	ChongLi	oh, haha
01:04	callenbot	fastest template engine in Clojure: go
01:05	amalloy	go isn't a templating engine in clojure
01:05	callenbot	I meant in the sense that I was asking people to volunteer an answer
01:05	ChongLi	perhaps we should start a new templating engine called go
01:05	mybuddymichael	Hah.
01:06	callenbot	ChongLi: harm it's Google juice even more?
01:06	ChongLi	yeah
01:06	callenbot	I like it.
01:07	ChongLi	I find it a bit annoying how google uses leverage to promote their languages
01:07	ChongLi	they should be promoting clojure!
01:08	callenbot	ChongLi: why?
01:08	ChongLi	because clojure's amazing!
01:08	xumingmingv	for template engine, you might want to take a look at this new engine: http://httl.oskpi.com/design.html#性能
01:08	TimMc	amalloy: Truth is stranger than fiction.
01:08	ChongLi	most of their languages are too conservative
01:08	xumingmingv	(in java)
01:08	xumingmingv	seems very fast
01:08	Raynes	callenbot: Probably hiccup, right?
01:09	callenbot	Raynes: I've seen two different answers there
01:09	callenbot	Raynes: 1. Hiccup is the fastest && 2. Hiccup is the slowest
01:09	callenbot	Raynes: I shit you not, that's the variance.
01:09	callenbot	...I better write my own benchmark, huh?
01:09	bawr	callenbot: are you sure you need great performance, anyway?
01:10	callenbot	bawr: nope, this is purely for my personal edification.
01:10	callenbot	bawr: I'm curious.
01:10	callenbot	realistically I'd use hiccup or clabango anyway. I just want to know.
01:11	bawr	Oh, I see. Sorry, pigeon-holed you as a knee-jerk. ;)
01:11	AfroMujahid	Raynes, am I stil your favourite?
01:11	Raynes	callenbot: In my benchmarks laser is faster than Enlive with no purposeful optimizations. So, I'd be interested in seeing a decent benchmark.
01:11	callenbot	bawr: naw I know better than that.
01:11	callenbot	Raynes: yeah I'm just going to write a benchmarking suite for template engines
01:11	callenbot	testing various use-cases.
01:12	Raynes	callenbot: Just write it for whatever and I'll fill in the laser blanks.
01:12	bawr	callenbot: yeah, I try to hammer Knuth's advice into people. ;)
01:12	callenbot	bawr: I'm usually the one telling people to fuck off unless they have data
01:12	callenbot	bawr: I was just wondering if anybody in here had tested recently.
01:12	bawr	callenbot: two rules of optimization: 1. don
01:12	bawr	1. don't. 2. (for experts) not yet. ;)
01:13	bawr	callenbot: ooh, right. excellent.
01:16	xumingmingv	bawr: http://httl.oskpi.com/design.html#性能
01:16	xumingmingv	here is a test result, and with the test code
01:16	xumingmingv	(for some java engine)
01:18	bawr	and a moonspeak anchor, I love it already :)
01:18	rclarkson	could i get some help from some pros: https://www.refheap.com/paste/9072
01:19	bawr	woah, those instability/abstractness graphs are weird.
01:21	xumingmingv	haha, why weird?
01:21	callenbot	I'm hammering together statistically significant and self-warming benchmarks for the template engines.
01:21	callenbot	you'll have data soon my friends!
01:22	bawr	xumingmingv: well, when would you want an instability vs abstractness graphs?
01:22	bawr	xD
01:23	bawr	*graph
01:23	xumingmingv	maybe to show to users that my library is good, maintainable?
01:23	bawr	but both strike me as a bit hard to measure
01:24	xumingmingv	(Actually I dont understand that graph very much either)
01:25	brehaut	rclarkson: are you trying to generate datalog queries?
01:25	rclarkson	brehaut: yes
01:25	bawr	I've tried translating the comments, and it may not be as silly as it seems.
01:25	rclarkson	brehaut: from a form .. tricky though
01:25	brehaut	rclarkson: where does ?foo come from?
01:26	brehaut	rclarkson: i presume ?bar comes from :bar ?
01:26	rclarkson	brehaut: yes
01:26	ChongLi	?foo comes from yes?
01:26	rclarkson	just a variable to have in the other ones
01:27	callenbot	the results on these tests is already interesting :)
01:28	callenbot	bwahahaha
01:28	rclarkson	ChongLi: no
01:28	bawr	callenbot: don't keep us waiting, you mad scientist, you :)
01:28	rclarkson	any idea how i can convert that one to catalog?
01:28	rclarkson	datalog
01:28	brehaut	rclarkson: ##((fn [[k [low high]]] (let [?k (symbol (str "?" (name k)))] (list ['?foo k ?k] [('> ?k low)] [('< ?k high)]))) [:bar [10 20]])
01:28	lazybot	⇒ ([?foo :bar ?bar] [10] [20])
01:28	brehaut	rclarkson: but its truely horrible
01:29	ChongLi	yes, truly truly horrible
01:29	brehaut	and i got my quote in the wrong place
01:29	callenbot	bawr: trying to come up with less trivial test cases :)
01:29	brehaut	((fn [[k [low high]]] (let [?k (symbol (str "?" (name k)))] (list ['?foo k ?k] [(list '> ?k low)] [(list '< ?k high)]))) [:bar [10 20]])
01:29	callenbot	in one test, I've already got a 10x variance in performance among template engines.
01:29	ChongLi	converting keywords to strings and then to symbols is always going to be ugly
01:30	brehaut	rclarkson: you could probably work backwards from goop like that to something with syntax quote and it'd clean it up a bit
01:30	rclarkson	brehaut: goop?
01:30	brehaut	rclarkson: the blob of code i just pasted
01:30	ChongLi	I don't see why you wouldn't store the symbol ?bar instead of a keyword
01:31	brehaut	yeah it does seem questionable
01:32	bawr	callenbot: interesting, though I'm not very surprised, unless the slower ones aren
01:32	bawr	't as feature-packed :)
01:34	callenbot	bawr: I can't wait to bring enlive into this...
01:36	bawr	callenbot: I mean, I'd expect most templating engines to be fine with just-acceptable performance and focus on power/ease of use instead.
01:38	callenbot	bawr: depends on the use-case, really.
01:39	bawr	callenbot: but then again, expecting and guessing is a moot point when we can have hard data. :)
01:39	callenbot	bawr: we'll see.
01:39	callenbot	oh yes, these results are very interesting indeed.
01:43	brehaut	just FYI, david santiago has some templating performance tests because hes obsessive about performance https://github.com/davidsantiago/tinsel
01:44	brehaut	its at the bottom of that readme
01:44	callenbot	brehaut: not comprehensive enough.
01:44	callenbot	brehaut: not comprehensive enough at all.
01:45	brehaut	well thats clearly bullshit
01:45	brehaut	its not comprehensive yes
01:45	brehaut	but at all?
01:46	callenbot	okay fine, it's comprehensive
01:46	Raynes	brehaut, callenbot: Those are the ones I've been using. If you look at my README and his, our results are completely and wildly different.
01:46	callenbot	it doesn't cover enough template engines
01:46	callenbot	Raynes: I am writing my own benchmarks for this reason...
01:46	callenbot	Raynes: I'm using a proper benchmarking engine that hammers out the variance and JIT warmup.
01:46	Raynes	I don't know why are results are so different so I explicitly noted in my README that they are probably bullshit.
01:46	Raynes	callenbot: Using criterium?
01:47	Raynes	It is supposed to be really good https://github.com/hugoduncan/criterium
01:47	callenbot	Raynes: yes I am
01:48	rclarkson	brehaut: Thanks for the help. I have cleaned it up a little bit
01:48	callenbot	rclarkson: oh it's you again
01:48	callenbot	rclarkson: are you from Sweden?
01:49	Raynes	callenbot: Don't know if you saw me say it earlier, but I can add the laser benchmarks when it is ready if you want.
01:49	rclarkson	callenbot: how come?
01:49	callenbot	Raynes: I'll push up a version with just hiccup and clabango momentarily
01:50	callenbot	Raynes: when it hits my github, you're welcome to fire a pull request at me
01:50	callenbot	after I push those up, I'll probably do stencil next
01:50	Raynes	callenbot: I'll take a look tomorrow. I'm in Windows for video games at the moment.
01:50	callenbot	Raynes: at your leisure. I'm in no hurry, just glad I'm finally writing this.
01:50	amalloy	hah. the exact opposite of the microsoft project Games for Windows
01:51	amalloy	callenbot: did you look into forking dsantiago's existing benchmarks rather than starting from scratch? are they unusable for some reason?
01:53	callenbot	amalloy: I don't know what caused the variance in the numbers, I don't want it infecting me
01:53	callenbot	if it infects me, I'll start tracking down the source of the variance
01:53	callenbot	I'll be using Raynes to check for htis.
01:53	callenbot	this*
01:53	Raynes	I read "I'll be using Raynes to check for tits"
01:54	Raynes	amalloy: The problem is that when I, callen, and David all got entirely different and in some cases wildly different numbers when we ran those benchmarks on our respective systems,.
01:54	Raynes	The benchmarks also don't seem particularly intensive.
01:54	Raynes	Not that I know anything about what a benchmark should look like.
01:55	brehaut	Raynes: neither does anyone else. everyone just pretends
01:55	amalloy	well, the idea is that criterium encapsulates "what a benchmark should look like", and you just provide test cases
01:55	amalloy	whichever ones you think are important
01:55	callenbot	I'll copy david's test cases themselves
01:55	callenbot	I'm not reusing the harness though
01:56	callenbot	yeah he's not re-running the benchmarks, that's pretty problematic.
01:57	Raynes	callenbot: Yeah, I always warm up the JIT a bit before I take my results.
01:58	callenbot	it's a reasonably "real world" benchmark (dave's) but they're not being run properly and they aren't well designed to isolating edge cases or variance in behavior between libraries
01:58	callenbot	for example, mine are designed to see if the differences between the template engines level off as templates increase in complexity, or get further apart.
01:58	amalloy	oh, lord. yes, i assumed he would be using criterium
01:58	callenbot	amalloy: see? my crankiness isn't always unmerited.
01:58	Raynes	amalloy: Yeah, no, he isn't. He just runs the things.
01:59	Raynes	DISCLAIMER: I am not complaining about anything he has done.
01:59	callenbot	I love dave. he gets my viewpoint on templates. but the viewbenchmarks needs replaced.
01:59	Raynes	I'm moving just a few miles of him. He could kick my ass in person if he wanted. I'm scared.
01:59	callenbot	improved
02:07	callenbot	I feel like I'm an idiot: IllegalArgumentException No implementation of method: :make-reader of protocol: #'clojure.java.io/IOFactory found for class: nil clojure.core/-cache-protocol-fn (core_deftype.clj:527)
02:07	callenbot	what's going on?
02:07	callenbot	wrong clojure version or what?
02:07	amalloy	&(clojure.java.io/reader nil)
02:07	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No implementation of method: :make-reader of protocol: #'clojure.java.io/IOFactory found for class: nil
02:08	amalloy	someone is calling that, probably via slurp or something
02:08	callenbot	amalloy: it's almost certainly slurp, did this get deprecated or something?
02:08	amalloy	no?
02:08	clojurebot	no is tufflax: there was a question somewhere in there, the answer
02:08	amalloy	you're just calling it with dumb args instead of good args
02:09	callenbot	I've used this template engine before and I'm following the --- alright fuck this
02:14	callenbot	christ that was annoying.
02:14	callenbot	stupid mistake
02:24	callenbot	well. str is going to be hard to beat.
02:37	callenbot	bawr: I have results.
02:37	callenbot	bawr: published
02:50	bawr	callenbot: where'd you put them?
02:51	bawr	callenbot: sorry, just got into the office, didn't follow the whole discussion :)
02:53	dsantiago	callenbot, amalloy, Raynes : Those tests pre-date the existence of criterium.
02:53	dsantiago	For what it's worth, any results I posted were on warmed-up JVMs, having run the test function multiple times, before taking a reading.
02:54	dsantiago	Of course, now that we have criterium, we can do a lot better.
02:56	callenbot	dsantiago: https://github.com/bitemyapp/clojure-template-benchmarks
02:56	callenbot	dsantiago: check it out!
02:56	callenbot	dsantiago: stencil is #winning right now.
02:57	callenbot	dsantiago: help me add stuff! I'm trying to add tinsel right now.
02:57	callenbot	bawr: https://github.com/bitemyapp/clojure-template-benchmarks
02:57	dsantiago	Nice.
02:57	callenbot	dsantiago: yeah you're winning by quite a bit right now.
02:57	bawr	callenbot: thanks, checking it out
02:58	callenbot	dsantiago: 20-25x difference between stencil and hiccup/clabango
02:58	bawr	"Test results are avg / standard deviation."
02:58	bawr	Finally someone does std-dev.
02:58	dsantiago	callenbot: I'm surprised to be faster than hiccup. I don't believe that will hold true for all templates.
02:58	callenbot	bawr: duh.
02:58	callenbot	dsantiago: come up with test cases and I'll add them!
02:58	bawr	callenbot: I officially like you at this point. :)
02:58	callenbot	I'll take pull requests to that repo, just don't fuck shit up.
02:59	michaelr525	hello
02:59	callenbot	michaelr525: hi
02:59	bawr	callenbot: although you really should use same units all around
02:59	callenbot	bawr: yeah I was pondering that.
02:59	callenbot	bawr: should I standardize on microseconds?
03:00	bawr	yeah, I'd do that
03:00	callenbot	kk
03:00	callenbot	hrm, wait what
03:00	callenbot	dafuq is tinsel doing
03:01	callenbot	that can't be real.
03:01	bawr	also, that's a neat link to the article about docs
03:01	callenbot	bawr: what link?
03:02	bawr	http://jacobian.org/writing/great-documentation/what-to-write/
03:02	dsantiago	What IS tinsel doing?
03:02	callenbot	dsantiago: I think I'm mis-using it, h/o
03:02	dsantiago	Quite likely. Tinsel is a different beast.
03:03	callenbot	yeah I'm not setting content properly.
03:03	callenbot	dammit.
03:11	callenbot	bawr: I fixed the units. refresh.
03:11	callenbot	dsantiago: why is stencil render-file so much faster than render-string?
03:11	bawr	>20,600 ms / 799 us
03:11	bawr	missed one
03:11	dsantiago	Because render-file can cache the parsed template.
03:12	callenbot	ah motherfucker.
03:12	callenbot	bawr: thank you, pushing.
03:13	callenbot	dsantiago: help unfuck my tinsel stuff please: https://github.com/bitemyapp/clojure-template-benchmarks/blob/master/src/clojure_template_benchmarks/core.clj#L59
03:13	dsantiago	Yep, this isn't gonna do anything. Hang on.
03:14	callenbot	dsantiago: hanging.
03:18	dsantiago	callenbot: https://gist.github.com/be8f54c948547455cd26
03:18	callenbot	dsantiago: thank you!
03:20	callenbot	dsantiago: do I need to (str ...) the result of the deftemplate or is it doing that for me?
03:20	dsantiago	Should be returning a string, no?
03:20	dsantiago	Returns a string for me, as you can see.
03:21	callenbot	dsantiago: well it's...eh...you'll see the results, h/o
03:22	callenbot	dsantiago: https://github.com/bitemyapp/clojure-template-benchmarks
03:22	dsantiago	callenbot: Should be identical to hiccup, and it is.
03:22	dsantiago	Tinsel is a hairy macro that spits out a function that does what hiccup would do.
03:22	callenbot	dsantiago: the simple data injection numbers are throwing me off.
03:23	dsantiago	Yeah, I'm looking to see what that code is.
03:23	callenbot	rerunning with a slight change
03:23	callenbot	you put in a string literal, replacing it with the var.
03:23	dsantiago	callenbot: I see.
03:23	dsantiago	That is turning into a string literal.
03:23	dsantiago	So there is no work, it's just a function that returns a string.
03:23	callenbot	yeah there we go.
03:24	callenbot	updating results, these are more sane
03:24	callenbot	I replaced the "bar" with bar
03:24	callenbot	which is (def bar (str "bar"))
03:24	dsantiago	Right, I forgot to unshortcut that.
03:25	callenbot	the behavior makes sense now, pushing.
03:25	callenbot	dsantiago: refresh if you care to see the new result
03:25	alex_baranosky	anyone know which version of clojure introduced nice-style ns doc strings? And which version intro diced ^:private style metadata?
03:25	callenbot	simple data injection is no longer totally loony.
03:25	dsantiago	Yeah, seems about there with hiccup again.
03:25	callenbot	yeah, but with slightly higher variance.
03:26	callenbot	dsantiago: you wouldn't happen to understand enlive or laser would you? those are the next two I'd like to get rolled in.
03:26	dsantiago	callenbot: I wrote tinsel becaues I didn't like Enlive, so no. And I haven't seen Laser.
03:26	callenbot	Raynes: stand up and be counted https://github.com/bitemyapp/clojure-template-benchmarks
03:26	callenbot	dsantiago: I actually like what you're did with tinsel.
03:26	dsantiago	callenbot: You're the first!
03:27	callenbot	dsantiago: it has a logic to it. It's a nice contrast to the...toothlessness of hiccup but it's less totally insane whole-tree-transformation-zipper-omg-wtf like enlive/laser
03:27	callenbot	although laser is a bit less "roll in ALL the toys!"
03:27	callenbot	s/like/than/g
03:28	callenbot	I'm considering using clabango for main/normal templates and stencil for API/partials/pjax
03:29	dsantiago	Is the template rendering performance so severe for you?
03:30	callenbot	dsantiago: not so much, but I like to keep such things in the back of my mind.
03:30	callenbot	I can't wait to see how enlive and laser do on this
03:30	dsantiago	Enlive is gonna be terrible.
03:30	callenbot	I know, that's the fun part.
03:30	dsantiago	I actually had code for it in my benchmarks, I just never posted the Enlive results.
03:35	dsantiago	callenbot: Ancient results from viewbenchmarks: https://gist.github.com/855872
03:35	callenbot	yeah, boned.
03:36	callenbot	that's actually slow enough to be unacceptable, tbqh
03:36	dsantiago	That was my appraisal at the time.
03:36	callenbot	sub-20ms and I'm wont to not really care, but 100-200ms is absurd.
03:36	dsantiago	Actually, at that time, I seem to recall people were getting some pathological templates that were taking many seconds to render just once.
03:36	dsantiago	Though I think they got some of those performance bugs sorted out eventually.
03:36	callenbot	toss that on top of the usual database waits and client network latency and you'll never fulfill a request faster than 500ms.
03:37	bawr	dsantiago: pathological as in "designed to be slow"?
03:37	bawr	or real-world stuff?
03:37	dsantiago	bawr: Er, no. I just meant, it was hitting some edge case in the engine that made it have terrible performance.
03:37	callenbot	the reason I don't include type-hinting in the benchmarks is because nobody's ever going to do that IRL
03:37	dsantiago	https://groups.google.com/group/enlive-clj/tree/browse_frm/month/2010-03/fa85686239120122?rnum=21&_done=/group/enlive-clj/browse_frm/month/2010-03?&pli=1
03:38	callenbot	unless you're chuck norris or dsantiago. but I repeat myself.
03:38	bawr	dsantiago: that's terrible, then
03:38	dsantiago	If you scroll down, he had a page that took 6.5 seconds to render with 200 tweets on it.
03:39	callenbot	noice.
03:39	dsantiago	Like I said, I recall faintly that they did some perf work on enlive after this thread.
03:39	dsantiago	I don't know specifics.
03:39	dsantiago	I'd already done my own thing.
03:41	callenbot	dsantiago: how many template engines have you written? 2? 3?
03:42	callenbot	that's what it looks like
03:42	callenbot	dsantiago: is quoin what backs stencil?
03:43	dsantiago	quoin is just some utilities that I pulled out of stencil so I can use it in this next engine I'm writing.
03:43	callenbot	dsantiago: the jinja inspired one you queried me?
03:43	dsantiago	I wouldn't say it's that much inspired by jinja, but yes.
03:45	callenbot	dsantiago: what are you planning to do differently? can you relink the gists?
03:46	dsantiago	callenbot: New language, which I believe is more regular and a bit easier to parse. It's based around simple operations that can be combined for expressiveness, in that it lets you transform data before rendering it. And I'm thinking about a new approach to making it render even faster.
04:06	newb	How can traverse a seq two items at a time? I need to compare each item to the previous item.
04:06	newb	Thanks
04:06	foodoo	,(doc clojure.set/join)
04:06	clojurebot	Pardon?
04:06	foodoo	,(doc clojure.string/join)
04:06	clojurebot	"([coll] [separator coll]); Returns a string of all elements in coll, as returned by (seq coll), separated by an optional separator."
04:07	foodoo	why doesn't the first command work? Is clojure.string automatically imported while clojure.set is not?
04:13	newb	Was that clojure.set/join for me, foodoo?
04:13	foodoo	newb: no. I've stumbled upon that one myself
04:14	foodoo	newb: And I just entered the channel
04:17	newb	Found it - partition function
04:24	m_m2	Hi. I am na newbie. Can anyone tell me how i can change value of my local variable ? Like variable=variable+other_var . I know that locals i create by (let [] ) function.
04:26	newb	Hi m_m2, one of the main ideas behind Clojure is that you DON'T modify variables unless you absolutely have to. See http://clojure.org/vars for more
04:27	foodoo	m_m2: What do you actually want to accomplish?
04:29	foodoo	m_m2: and (let) is not a function but a macro
04:29	m_m2	I have a "while" loop. Where I check some statements. If one of them is true then i need to increase one of my local var by other var.
04:29	clojurebot	In Ordnung
04:30	Sgeo	m_m2, that is generally not the preferred approach, although it is possible
04:30	m_m2	So how i can make this by a right way ?
04:30	foodoo	m_m2: can you post your code on pastebin.com (or somewhere similar)?
04:30	foodoo	m_m2: because the answer to your question really depends on what you want to achieve
04:31	Sgeo	refheap.com is typically preferred by Clojurists
04:31	foodoo	Sgeo: thanks, I'll try to remember that
04:31	Sgeo	Well, it's by one of our own, so
04:31	Sgeo	(Raynes)
04:36	m_m2	foodoo It will be impossible right now. I am at work and this part of code is on my private comp. But... i tryed to resolve this : http://projecteuler.net/problem=1 . I have "while" loop where first of my locals was increased by 1 each time. Then I've checked (if (or (mod i 3) (mod i 5) )) . This is the moment... where its true I woluld like to add "i" to my sum variable "suma" .
04:38	foodoo	m_m2: that's okay. Do you know the (reduce) function?
04:39	m_m2	foodoo nope. But i will check it on clojuredocs.
04:40	foodoo	m_m2: The following are crucial functions for every functional programmer: map, reduce, apply
04:40	foodoo	m_m2: and I forgot: filter
04:41	foodoo	m_m2: Then there are also some variations of the functions just mentioned
04:43	m_m2	Soo i will create a list with my "i" variable and after tha ti will make (reduce + list_of_i) ?
04:43	foodoo	m_m2: that's one way, yes
04:43	m_m2	foodoo Is there any other ?
04:44	foodoo	m_m2: (apply + list_of_i) comes to my mind
04:44	m_m2	roodoo I see that reduce will use my stack right ?
04:45	foodoo	m_m2: you refer to memory consumption?
04:45	m_m2	foodoo yes
04:46	foodoo	m_m2: no, that's not an issue. If you use reduce you don't remember past reductions
04:47	m_m2	foodoo No. I mean is there any other why without use my stack.
04:47	foodoo	m_m2: I don't understand. Maybe you should post your project euler solution on refheap.com
04:48	m_m2	foodoo Hmm...reduce use stack right ?
04:49	foodoo	m_m2: No. It doesn't build up something like (+ 1 (+ 2 (+ 3 4))) but evaluates stuff directly
04:50	foodoo	m_m2: It's more like a stream of values that are processed
04:51	foodoo	m_m2: if you have a sequence like '(1 2 3 4) then reduce will take 1 and 2, sum them up and proceed to add 3 and 3 and then 4 afterwards
04:51	m_m2	foodoo how about apply ?
04:54	foodoo	m_m2: afk
04:58	foodoo	m_m2: the use of apply is best illustrated by an example: The (+) function takes any number of arguments: (+ 1 2 3 4 ...). But if you have a list of values that you want to add you can't do (+ '(1 2 3 4 ...)) because (+) expects single values and not a list as a parameter
04:58	foodoo	m_m2: what apply does is that it rearranges the arguments to a function for you so that (apply + '(1 2 3 4)) becomes (+ 1 2 3 4)
05:01	foodoo	m_m2: which should also not result in a linear but a constant stack increase
05:01	Raynes	callenbot: Hrm, why is half of -main commented out?
05:02	Raynes	Well, more than half.
05:08	josteink	git + heroku + clojure = I'm probably never going to install Visual Studio on my home laptop ever again
05:10	foodoo	josteink: what do you use as an editor?
05:11	josteink	emacs
05:11	josteink	I like sublime edit, and emacs is a bit heavy to get going
05:11	josteink	but I cant use sublime edit over ssh ;)
05:11	josteink	emacs I have everywhere
05:12	Raynes	Sublime is also a massive disaster for Clojure.
05:12	josteink	my biggest complaint there is actually the indentation
05:12	Raynes	Mhm.
05:12	josteink	it seems it cant do it right out of the box, and neither can any third party addin
05:12	Raynes	There is a decent third party add on for it, but it isn't the same as real support.
05:13	Raynes	And I'd prefer he not pretend to support languages that he isn't going to put any effort into actually supporting.
05:13	Raynes	He should just take the Clojure support out entirely, it's essentially useless as-is.
05:13	josteink	ah well
05:13	josteink	Im back to emacs
05:13	josteink	I like it
05:14	josteink	it feels good to have a lisp-based editor to do your lisp-y stuff in ;)
05:14	foodoo	I'm a Vim user but maybe LightTable will be the best choice in the future
05:17	josteink	ooh
05:17	josteink	a new ide/editor whose first demo/concept video is filled with clojure-code
05:18	josteink	lookss promising, but Ill stick to emacs for now ;)
05:20	Foxboron	I was wondering btw. When i was setting up emacs for the very first time. I fetched clojure-mode and then nrepl. That seems to break some keybinds or something (cant remember)
05:20	Foxboron	Is there any known issue doing it that way? The fix for me atleast was too only fetch nrepl, as clojure-mode is a dependency.
05:21	josteink	I jsut used emacs-starter kit
05:21	josteink	from technomancy
05:21	josteink	and then added yank-indent.el
05:21	josteink	that was about it
05:21	josteink	anyway. lighttable looks very interesting, and like some refreshing and new
05:21	Foxboron	currently got, nrepl, paredit, starter-kit and eldoc.
05:22	josteink	Ill wait till it proves itself though, until it matures ;)
05:23	daimrod	it's really sad that the author of LightTable has decided to write yet another editor instead of improving one of the existing... I mean, even if you're really good, you can't really expect to catch with Emacs or Vim within a lifetime, not unless you have 50 people working 7/24.
05:24	bawr	daimrod: to be fair, most of the killer features he wants to do wouldn't really work as extensions of other editors.
05:25	Foxboron	daimrod: i think that would just make it less accessable
05:25	maleghast	dalmrod: Haters gotta hate… The person / people behind LightTable are __MAKING SOMETHING__ why do you care enough to beat on them..?
05:25	josteink	daimrod: to be fair
05:25	foodoo	daimrod: The Clojure support in Vim is pretty nice with vimclojure, but I still think that if LT implements the features that are planned, I will probably switch
05:26	bawr	daimrod: besides... I just refuse to believe that Emacs is the pinnacle of Lisp development.
05:26	josteink	daimrod: emacs and those editors has a LOT of baggage which means that doing anything new or radical is hard or impossible
05:26	josteink	daimrod: much like firefox
05:26	josteink	there is a reason all new development is happening in chrome/webkit
05:26	foodoo	josteink: well spoken
05:26	josteink	someone who "wasted his efforts" on reinventing a wheel
05:26	josteink	sometimes it makes sense
05:27	maleghast	Amen - It's never a bad choice to innovate, and LightTable does just that. It may not be what everyone wants from a dev tool for Clojure, but no one can deny that its creators are innovators.
05:28	daimrod	I disagree, look at the xwidget branch, with more man-power I'm sure some awesome stuff could be made.
05:28	daimrod	but Emacs ain't sexy
05:29	maleghast	daimrod: raises eyebrow How Subjective do you wanna get, mon ami? I know plenty of people that think emacs is a sexy tool - try out Sam Aaron's emacs-live configuration if you don't believe me...
05:30	foodoo	maleghast: isn't that mostly the awesomeness that comes from a REPL?
05:33	maleghast	foodoo: That and the Undo Tree, and Paredit and the core key-bindings in emacs that make for a powerful editing environment without taking your gads off the keyboard. I'm predominantly a Vi(m) guy, but even I can concede that emacs got game, and with some configuration magic it can be very powerful and productive as a tool. That's not to ay that I think that everyone should use emacs and only emacs - diversity is a GOOD thing :-)
05:34	maleghast	foodoo: s/gads/hands - my typing SUCKS!
05:34	maleghast	foodoo: s/ay/say - see what I mean?
05:35	bawr	a quick question - say I have a bunch of clojure files, and I'd like to basically rename a function and update all references. will the existing emacs/clojure bindings let me do that? and no, straight-up text substitution doesn't count. ;)
05:37	maleghast	bawr: I have no idea, but out of interest, why doesn't text substitution not count?
05:37	aroemers	diversity is a good thing indeed. Me and my development team, for example, get by with Sublime Text just fine for Clojure
05:37	aroemers	(I am learning emacs on the side though..)
05:37	maleghast	aroemers: ;-) nice!
05:37	daimrod	I don't want to troll or to bash anyone, but I can't stop to try to imagine what a team of emacs hackers could have done with 200k...
05:38	bawr	maleghast: because what I'm really interested in is something else. I'm wondering if any clojure editing suites actually actively use the fact that clojure is a Lisp, with all the related homoiconicity goodness.
05:38	bawr	maleghast: if they do, renaming a function would be the most basic feature I can think of.
05:39	maleghast	bawr: That __is__ a good question; my Clojure-Tools-Fu is way to weak to offer insight, but I wish you success in your quest ;-)
05:39	Raynes	$latest enlive
05:39	lazybot	[enlive "1.0.1"] -- https://clojars.org/enlive
05:39	maleghast	daimrod: Hey, that's cool - why don't you get a bunch of emacs hackers together, do a proof of concept for some cool stuff and go find a backer..?
05:40	bawr	maleghast: for that matter, I wonder if Emacs can do that for ordinary Lisps.
05:40	bawr	Because if there's not one editor/plugin/whatever that does that, it's a fucking disgrace.
05:40	maleghast	daimrod: I would, but I'm already over-subscribed with a day-job, being a Dad, being a Photographer and trying to get two other web projects off the ground… ;-)
05:40	bawr	I know Lighttable will, but it's too immature at this point.
05:41	maleghast	bawr: I can't help but agree with you, though I would like to stress that it had never occurred to me before either, so perhaps it's not so much a disgrace as a minor disappointment ;-)
05:41	bawr	not really. I mean...
05:41	bawr	the ability to do that is literally the first and foremost selling point of lisp.
05:42	daimrod	bawr: don't know for the Clojure mode, but in SLIME for CL there is `slime-who-calls' (bound to C-c C-w C-c)
05:43	bawr	daimrod: oh, thanks, that's a good starting point.
05:43	m_m2	foodoo Are you using clojure in real world apps ?
05:43	bawr	I guess I'll have to actually understand how the major lisp modes work.
05:44	maleghast	bawr: If you get to the bottom of this question / these questions, PLEASE blog about it..? I'm interested, but have limited time… :-(
05:45	bawr	maleghast: I once toyed with an idea of a lisp-only editor that basically lets you edit sexps, not text. and forces formatting. ;)
05:45	bawr	maleghast: that's because it would make it insanely easy to operate on your code programatically then.
05:47	maleghast	bawr: That is both hardcore and clever, but I am not sure how useful it would be… I am prepared to be shown to be very wrong, and I am not naysaying, I promise, I'm just not sure my head can handle it and I would need to be "shown around" the idea a bit more I think...
05:47	bawr	heh, I know that feeling, I'll probably need to sacrifice a weekend just to research these questions properly.
05:47	maleghast	bawr: Hehe
05:48	bawr	but well, there's already paren-mode or whatever in emacs, and it seems popular enough.
05:48	bawr	this isn't really taking the idea much further. :>
05:49	maleghast	bawr: Fair point - I am going to have to go back to the TDD in (j)Ruby that I am doing at the moment, and consign Clojure to the realm of dreaming, at least for now...
05:50	bawr	for me, the forced-formatting was actually appealing because I know I spend way too much time on it. now it would be just a matter of editing the code pretty-printer once. :)
05:51	bawr	Well, Enlive looked interesting for about five seconds:
05:51	bawr	>No namespaces support (hence unsuitable for most XML)
05:52	p_l	s/most/most interesting/
05:54	bawr	I mean... come on, I know XML namespaces are a mess, but this just hamstrings it. :<
05:56	foodoo	m_m2: No, I'm not (yet)
05:57	maleghast	bawr: It does sound like a problem, for sure...
05:58	foodoo	m_m2: Maybe I'll write an XMPP client if I have the time
05:58	p_l	bawr: no, seriously, properly designed XML stuff can be fun
05:58	maleghast	bawr: Do you __have__ to use XML?
05:59	bawr	maleghast: let me put it this way - when I do, it's the tricky kind of XML.
05:59	bawr	p_l: true!
05:59	maleghast	bawr: Oh, that's no fun at all… Over my software engineering career I've done more than my fair share (it feels like anyway) of "using" XML and I have almost always regretted it… ;-)
06:00	p_l	unfortunately good XML requires thinking things through, just like good file formats
06:00	p_l	.DOC was more thought-through format than a lot of XML out there ;P
06:01	bawr	maleghast: to be fair, most problems with XML have more to do with borderline-retarded way it's generated and used, not the format itself.
06:01	foodoo	<listofattributes><attribute><name>foo</name><value>bar</value></attribute></listofattributes>
06:01	bawr	At least as far as using it programatically goes, we all know it's a mess for human readbility. :)
06:02	p_l	foodoo: that thing is known as Second Normal Form, and should be considered atrocity and crime
06:02	maleghast	bawr: I could not agree more with your last statement.
06:02	bawr	p_l: I can do you one better!
06:02	p_l	bawr: Three Words: Apple .plist XML
06:02	p_l	if I ever get the guy responsible for it, he is going to limp
06:03	bawr	<listofmaterials><material name="something".../><material name="foo bar".../></listofmaterials>
06:03	bawr	and then later in the file
06:03	bawr	<something>...</something>
06:03	bawr	<foo_bar>...</foo_bar>
06:03	foodoo	ouch
06:03	bawr	Yeah.
06:04	bawr	when I first saw it, I puked a little :<
06:06	maleghast	bawr: Yep, .plist files are hideous, no argument from me on that!
06:08	foodoo	a couple of month ago Rich Hickey introduced something like "clojure data format" something similar to JSON but with Clojure literals. What was the exact name of that again?
06:08	bawr	p_l: oh God
06:08	maleghast	EDN
06:08	bawr	p_l: I just looked those up.
06:08	maleghast	foodoo: https://github.com/edn-format/edn
06:08	bawr	p_l: horrible, horrible.
06:09	maleghast	There is also Fressian, which is the Datomic interchange format, based on Hessian
06:09	foodoo	maleghast: thanks. Did anyone use these yet?
06:11	maleghast	Datomic uses Fressian, so anyone using Datomic is de facto using it… I am considering EDN as a successor to JSON in a system I am working on at the moment, should JSON performance continue to be a problem, as it is implemented in Ruby as well as Clojure.
06:12	maleghast	foodoo: To answer your question, yes, but it's still early-adopted times… ;-)
06:12	augustl	EDN has what I really miss in JSON: sets
06:12	bawr	Ooh. How did I not know about Datomic for so long?
06:13	maleghast	augustl: Yeah, that is a lovely feature
06:13	augustl	bawr: shame on you! :)
06:14	augustl	maleghast: very often my JSON arrays have set semantics, but that needs to be communicated out of bounds..
06:15	josteink	augustl: from what Ive seen lots of (JSONy) people have complained about EDN
06:15	maleghast	augustl: Well indeed, but needs must when the devil (or client) drives… ;-)
06:15	josteink	augustl: mostly because you have 3 ways to define sets/arrays
06:16	bawr	josteink: how so? a cursory read of the spec doesn't suggest that
06:16	maleghast	josteink: Why would anyone complain about a technology - I just don't get that. I mean use it, don't use it, but why expend energy bitching about it?
06:16	augustl	josteink: hmm, what are the 3 ways?
06:16	josteink	augustl: you have seq's/lists, you have vectors, you have setsm you have maps
06:16	josteink	etc
06:17	josteink	which is a nice distinction in a programming lanaguge with regard to what -implementation- fits best
06:17	josteink	for a data interchange format I agree its a bit redundant
06:17	augustl	I see
06:18	maleghast	josteink: Not if you are interchanging between systems written in Clojure, because then it fully supports all of Clojure's fundamental data types.
06:18	josteink	maleghast: sure
06:18	josteink	but then its a clojure data serialization format
06:18	augustl	there are more environments than Clojure where it matters whether a list is random access or not
06:18	josteink	and no longer a general purpose data interchange format
06:18	josteink	or would you appreciate if clojure had to deal with JS's quirks, in your code, simply because you want to consume JSON data?
06:19	augustl	I'd say JS quirks are a lot less general than data structure semantics :)
06:19	maleghast	josteink: What makes you think that I don't, or rather that the person / people that maintain the various JSON libraries for Clojure don't ..?
06:19	josteink	Im just saying that lots of people have problems with how EDN seems to be tailored for clojure and nothing else
06:20	josteink	and thus it will have a hard time to suceed as a general purpose, popular data interchange format
06:20	josteink	Im not saying anyone holds absolute truth
06:20	josteink	just that popular tide is not leaning towards EDN
06:20	bawr	yeah, I don't see it happening either
06:22	maleghast	josteink: Fair enough; I find myself unmoved by the "popular tide", but I cannot see anything wrong with your point :-)
06:27	m_m2	foodoo Do you know any real world apps written in clojure? Maybe clojure have some part of bussines where it may be usefull.
06:28	bawr	the tags are a nice feature, to be sure
06:30	maleghast	m_m2: Not wishing to butt in (too much) on foodoo but there are lots of real-world apps written in Clojure. The majority are internal applications for large corporations, particularly banks in London and New York, but there are entire companies basing their work entirely in Clojure, like Mastodon-C for example.
06:30	bawr	in fact, one could sensibly omit vectors and sets from the core spec and just implement them as tagged elements
06:30	foodoo	m_m2: maleghast pretty much summarizes it. Have a look at http://planet.clojure.in/ to see some stuff people do with Clojure
06:32	foodoo	m_m2: But I think we don't have an application yet that has raised a great deal of awareness outside of the Clojure community
06:32	bawr	foodoo: that's not necessarily a bad thing, really.
06:32	m_m2	foodoo Is there any kind of GUI framework for clojure like Gryphon for Groovy ? (easy to use). I know that clojure have web framework called Noir. But I couldnt find any big app written on it.
06:32	foodoo	bawr: Reminds me of Haskell. "Don't be popular" ;)
06:33	bawr	The way I see it, people who want to use Clojure already know about it. ;)
06:34	foodoo	m_m2: There definitely is a Swing wrapper. But I forgot the name. But even if you don't find it, you can still use Swing directly through Java interop
06:34	bawr	I'm with Paul Graham on this - I'm really fine with Lisp being a secret weapon. xD
06:34	maleghast	bawr: applause
06:35	bawr	hmm. anyone knows why edn needs a discard sequence?
06:39	foodoo	bawr: maybe to add debugging symbols to edn output?
06:40	bawr	the way I see it, edn really tries too hard to be readable by clojure's eval
06:41	bawr	which is a bad idea in any case
06:41	foodoo	Isn't it obvious? Rich Hickey strives for world domination ;)
06:42	bawr	yeah, but it could've been made much more "friendly" with relatively little changes
06:45	foodoo	The github page says "Currently this specification is casual, as we gather feedback from implementors."
06:45	foodoo	so maybe rich is still open for suggestions
06:46	bawr	eh, I'll try if I get some time over the weekend
06:46	bawr	doesn't seem likely, though :)
06:52	clgv	bawr: isnt the whole point of EDN that it is a decent subset of what the Clojure reader can read? thus enabling Clojure-to-Clojure interprocess communication as well as Clojure-2-World since the subset is chosen such that it is easy to implement?
07:24	bosie	how does (ns blah (:import ....)) work? isn't (:import ... ) calling a function called :import?
07:25	augustl	bosie: it's a macro, it ends up calling (import)
07:27	bosie	augustl: is this what macroexpand shows when it shows clojure.core/import ?
07:27	foodoo	okay, since a couple of hours have passed, I'll repeat my question:
07:27	augustl	bosie: yes
07:27	foodoo	,(doc clojure.set/join)
07:28	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
07:28	foodoo	,(doc clojure.string/join)
07:28	clojurebot	"([coll] [separator coll]); Returns a string of all elements in coll, as returned by (seq coll), separated by an optional separator."
07:28	foodoo	why doesn't the first thing work? Is clojure.string imported by default and clojure.set isn't?
07:29	augustl	foodoo: for all I know it's bot specific behaviour
07:29	foodoo	augustl: it's reproducible in the REPL
07:29	Raynes	It's also REPL-specific behavior.
07:29	augustl	perhaps the REPL requires clojure.string
07:30	Raynes	Nothing but clojure.core is automatically included IIRC.
07:30	foodoo	augustl: good theory
07:30	augustl	seconding the iirc :)
07:30	Raynes	You can test this theory by doing the following: java -cp `lein classpath` clojure.main
07:31	foodoo	theory falsifie: (println (clojure.string/split "foo and bar and baz" #"and"))
07:31	foodoo	this programs works fine when saved in a file and invoked through "clj testprogram.clj"
07:31	Raynes	Yup, I was wrong.
07:31	Raynes	I've been known to be wrong.
07:32	foodoo	Raynes: still, was a good theory :)
07:32	augustl	what's "clj"? Never used that
07:32	Raynes	Ugh, why do you have a 'clj'?
07:32	augustl	perhaps whatever clj is requires clojure.string ;)
07:32	Raynes	Delete it and forget it exists. There is no official 'clj' thing for Clojure.
07:32	foodoo	but ...
07:32	Raynes	augustl: No, I just used clojure.jar directly.
07:33	Raynes	Surprisingly it is automatically required.
07:33	foodoo	clj is a shell script that contains: java -jar ~/lib/clj/clojure-1.4.0.jar $@
07:33	bosie	augustl: whats the point of writing :import when it gets translated into import anyway?
07:33	Raynes	bosie: Because one looks like a function call and the other looks like what it is which is a directive.
07:34	bosie	Raynes: it just looks illogical to me to have a keyword as a function call
07:34	Raynes	It isn't a function call.
07:34	Raynes	Has nothing to do with a function call.
07:34	bosie	if ns wasn't a macro, wouldn't it be a function call?
07:35	Raynes	Yes. And keywords actually are functions.
07:35	Raynes	&(:foo {:foo 1})
07:35	lazybot	⇒ 1
07:35	bosie	hm
07:35	bosie	i thought only in context of a hash or other sequences?
07:35	Raynes	Yes.
07:36	bosie	which isn't the case for :import/:use
07:36	Raynes	So?
07:37	Raynes	It isn't a function call, it is a directive. It could behave differently to 'import', 'require'.
07:37	bosie	so its another special usage case to remember
07:37	Raynes	It would be a special case regardless of how it looks.
07:37	Raynes	Keyword, symbol, whatever, it is still in a macro where the rules of evaluation are changed.
07:37	bosie	true
07:45	clgv	bosie: no it is the namespace default case ;)
07:48	bosie	clgv: which just showcases why clj is confusing to learn
08:03	clgv	bosie: humm why? all material I read that introduces namespaces uses the keywords in the ns-form
08:03	clgv	bosie: just get one of the recent books.
08:03	foodoo	clgv: But it's still confusing
08:04	magnars	why is the ns form of require/use not [:require [...]] instead of (:require [...]) ? I know both work, but the second one seems more commonly used.
08:05	magnars	that would maybe alleviate some of the confusion?
08:05	clgv	foodoo: well the rule is in normal clojure dont use import- require- refer- directly but use keywords in the ns-form
08:05	bosie	clgv: it is confusing because of the mental overhead due to inconsistency that clojure introduces
08:05	clgv	bosie: which inconsistency?
08:06	bosie	clgv: (:import...)
08:06	bosie	clgv: (for [x [...] :let [...] :when ....]
08:06	bosie	clgv: why not use '(ns foo [...])' like for?
08:07	bosie	clgv: introducing new rules for every macro seems incosistent to me
08:08	clgv	bosie: it makes no difference whether you use a list or vector in an ns-form
08:08	clgv	bosie: there is some rule which should be preferred but I dont know if I am following that one myself currently
08:09	bosie	clgv: wait, (:import ) is a list?
08:10	clgv	bosie: yes. code-is-data data-is-code ;)
08:11	clgv	,(type '(:import ))
08:11	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
08:11	bosie	,(type (:import))
08:11	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to keyword: :import>
08:11	foodoo	they are both seqs, that is all that matters
08:11	bosie	now i am even more confused, ha.
08:11	foodoo	,(type '(:import))
08:11	clgv	bosie: that does not work since you call the keyword :import as function on zero args
08:11	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
08:11	bosie	clgv: ofc
08:12	bosie	clgv: hence its not a list
08:12	bosie	clgv: you dont do '(:import...), you do (:import...). i don't see how this is a list
08:12	clgv	bosie: you have to quote lists to tell clojure it is data. you dont have to for vectors
08:12	clgv	bosie: it is see below
08:13	clgv	,(type (read-string "(:import...)"))
08:13	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
08:13	Bodil	bosie: Parentheses make lists. And lists are used to represent code - the quite just says "please don't evaluate this list as code."
08:13	Bodil	The quote*
08:14	clgv	bosie: (:import) fails since the repl or clojurebot try to evaluate it since it is an unquoted list evaluation means function call
08:14	clgv	bosie: get one of the good books to help you with the basics quickly
08:15	bosie	clgv: i already have
08:16	bosie	clgv: (ns foo '(:import...)) doesn't seem to work
08:17	bosie	Bodil: yes. which was my point. its incosistent
08:18	magnars	any reason to not just use [:require] instead in the macro? It behaves the same from what I can see.
08:18	clgv	bosie: no. you must not quote it there. `ns` is a macro, that means its content isnt neccessarily evaluated literally
08:19	Bodil	bosie: Not unless you assume lists are _only_ used to represent code. Lists are just lists. :)
08:19	bosie	clgv: you said the macro requires a list. i gave it a list. instead i must give it 'code' that doesn't exist
08:19	clgv	clgv: the ns-macro parses the given that and uses require/refer as needed "internally"
08:19	Bodil	magnars: imo, using lists reads better. Like using vectors to declare function arguments. Breaks up the syntax a bit.
08:20	bosie	Bodil: so the for syntax bothers you?
08:20	clgv	bosie: if you want to grasp the reason of that behavior read the macro section of your book
08:20	Bodil	bosie: No, why would it?
08:20	bosie	clgv: i will. thanks
08:22	bosie	Bodil: figured (for [..]...) reads worse, not using lists and all.
08:22	magnars	Bodil: sounds like an argument based on familiarity, while bosie has a point about similar things behaving similarly.
08:23	bosie	magnars: thanks
08:23	Bodil	bosie: That wasn't my point at all. I meant the idea behind (fn []) and (for []) was to avoid the "omg too many parentheses" argument, and make the code more visually identifiable.
08:24	bosie	ok
08:24	Bodil	magnars: Lists and vectors are both seqs. They do behave similarly. :)
08:25	magnars	Bodil: yeah, I just don't understand the seeming idiomatic use of lists for ns declarations
08:25	noidi	there's a good rule of thumb for choosing between vectors and lists: lists imply that their first argument is special somehow
08:25	magnars	noidi: that is an interesting thought. That way it makes more sense. Thanks.
08:26	Bodil	magnars: No reason except it avoids syntactic clutter, I guess. :)
08:26	noidi	in `(:require foo :refer [bar baz xyz])` `:require` is special, but `bar` has no special meaning in the vector
08:27	magnars	I liked the reason noidi gave, actually. Gives me a nice mental image of the difference.
08:27	Bodil	noidi: That makes a remarkable amount of sense. :)
08:28	clgv	noidi: right. cheap sequential versus cheap random access^^
08:28	noidi	it also affects indentation: in `(:import (foo.bar Baz <linebreak> Blah <linebreak> Xyz))` the class names `Blah` and `Xyz` would line up under the class name `Baz`
08:29	clgv	noidi: wasnt that the argument in one of the style guides?
08:29	noidi	whereas they would line up under the package name if you used a vector
08:29	clgv	noidi: thats IDE dependent ;)
08:30	noidi	sure, but that's the default for paredit and CCW's structured editing mode
08:30	Bodil	noidi: That's a very Emacs centred argument, though. Which I like. :)
08:30	Bodil	Though those indentation rules have been idiomatic for Lisp for a VERY long time...
08:30	noidi	I think VimClojure (or whatever it's called) follows the same indentation rules
08:31	bosie	noidi: lemme check
08:31	noidi	(whatever it's called now, since I recall it being split up into several packages)
08:32	noidi	apparently the packages are vim-clojure-static and foreplay: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/vimclojure/B-UU8qctd5A
08:32	bosie	noidi: [asdf Baz<LB>Blah<LB>] puts the Blah under asdf
08:33	bosie	noidi: with () it puts it under baz
08:34	noidi	bosie, right, so the indentation is consistent among three of the most popular Clojure editing environments
08:35	noidi	so it's hardly an Emacs-specific argument :)
08:35	clgv	ah well, I'd store clojure code in sexpression datastructure in databases instead of textfiles. that way identation is only a viewer setting which one might store in a style-part of the database as well when it differs from the viewer rules...
08:37	noidi	clgv, and then write a fork of git/mercurial to handle semantic changesets instead of diffing files... :)
08:38	clgv	noidi: yeah versioning could be a lot better if it had s-expr info. wasnt there the git+clojure-parser from rich?
08:49	michaelr525	A services manager where services can be stopped/started and reloaded from updated code. Is something like this exists for clojure?
08:54	clgv	michaelr525: you can use tools.namespace to do a complete reload
08:54	michaelr525	damn, bad connection did i miss something?
08:54	clgv	michaelr525: you can use tools.namespace to do a complete reload
08:55	clgv	michaelr525: but you meant something like a distributed system?
08:56	michaelr525	clgv: actually distributed is not a requirement.. I have two small programs where each program reads from a message queue. One downloads stuff the other posts stuff to facebook, they both run on the same server. So I started thinking that it's wastefull to run two jvms for such small programs..
08:57	michaelr525	clgv: you suggest that i can maybe write something simple myself..
08:58	clgv	michaelr525: well then I do not understand the "service start/stop requirement" if you want to use a single JVM anyway
08:59	Dark_Temple	hello :)
08:59	michaelr525	clgv: suppose that i would like to update the code for one of the services without shutting down the others..
09:00	Dark_Temple	is there a way to (partial function_name arg2) ,i mean to partial evaluate but with argument 2 first
09:00	the-kenny	I can't remember any function swapping the args
09:01	the-kenny	Use #(function-name % arg2)
09:02	Dark_Temple	thx kenny i will try
09:05	clgv	michaelr525: do use lein in the deployed setup or do you run a uberjar?
09:07	michaelr525	clgv: right now i just 'lein run'
09:08	michaelr525	clgv: it's my project so i can do whatever i wish :)
09:10	clgv	michaelr525: well using tools.namespace to reload one namespace and its transitive dependencies should work then to reload new code
09:12	michaelr525	clgv: using an embedded repl?
09:14	clgv	michaelr525: not necessarily. if you want one anyway, then you can do it like that. but you could also access it via http to trigger the reload
09:14	clgv	website style or webservice style. as you wish
09:21	michaelr525	clgv: oh
09:22	gmc_	\q
10:49	qerub	How would you check if all elements in a seq are equal? (apply = [1 1]) works fine except for the empty-seq case which gives ArityException. Spontaneously, I think that all elements of an empty seq should be considered equal; is this sane?
10:50	nDuff	qerub: you could reduce
10:51	nDuff	...though that's going to also not handle the empty-seq case
10:56	qerub	nDuff: I just noticed that the reduce function is called with zero args if the seq to reduce is empty. Interesting!
10:57	qerub	Ah, well, suppose I'll just branch and handle the empty-seq case separately.
10:59	clgv	qerub: how about (every? #(= % (first coll)) (rest coll)) ?
11:00	qerub	clgv: Good call!
11:00	qerub	I'm a bit tempted to do (every? (partial = (first coll)) (rest coll)) though.
11:00	qerub	I think we have a winner. Thank you.
11:04	TimMc	I vaguely recall a JIRA asking for (=) to return true.
11:22	gfredericks	what does embedding objects in code have to do with print-dup?
11:22	hyPiRion	,(=)
11:22	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$-EQ->
11:23	hyPiRion	hrm, I was sure it returned true.
11:23	gfredericks	hyPiRion: do you think it should?
11:24	gfredericks	I can't decide if it makes sense or not
11:24	bawr	,(= 1)
11:24	clojurebot	true
11:24	bawr	yeah, if it works for one argument
11:24	gfredericks	hyPiRion: it kind of gives you two base cases
11:25	hyPiRion	gfredericks: I consider (= x1 x2 x3 x4) as a reduction
11:25	gfredericks	some reductions don't make sense on an empty list
11:25	gfredericks	,(reduce = [])
11:25	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$-EQ->
11:25	hyPiRion	,(reduce = true [])
11:25	clojurebot	true
11:26	hyPiRion	But it shouldn't be = anyway, it has to be wrapped somehow.
11:26	gfredericks	that still feels weird; the essense of the computation is checking if anything in that list (not= true)
11:26	gfredericks	,(reduce = false [])
11:26	clojurebot	false
11:26	gfredericks	o_O
11:26	gfredericks	,(reduce = 42 [])
11:26	clojurebot	42
11:26	gfredericks	oh sure
11:26	gfredericks	,(reduce = true [1 2 3])
11:26	clojurebot	false
11:26	hyPiRion	,(reduce hash-map true [])
11:26	clojurebot	true
11:27	gfredericks	,(reduce = true [1 1 1])
11:27	clojurebot	false
11:27	hyPiRion	gfredericks: You have to wrap it, sure
11:27	gfredericks	hyPiRion: I don't think you can make it work as reduce with any default value
11:29	hyPiRion	,(let [foo [1 2 3]] (second (reduce (fn [[a x] b] [a (and x (= a b))]) [true (first foo)] (rest foo))))
11:29	clojurebot	false
11:29	hyPiRion	,(let [foo [1 1 1]] (second (reduce (fn [[a x] b] [a (and x (= a b))]) [true (first foo)] (rest foo))))
11:29	clojurebot	false
11:29	hyPiRion	whaps
11:29	hyPiRion	,(let [foo [1 1 1]] (second (reduce (fn [[a x] b] [a (and x (= a b))]) [(first foo) true] (rest foo))))
11:29	clojurebot	true
11:29	hyPiRion	,(let [foo []] (second (reduce (fn [[a x] b] [a (and x (= a b))]) [(first foo) true] (rest foo))))
11:29	clojurebot	true
11:30	hyPiRion	It's nil punning though, so I get your concern.
11:31	hyPiRion	And Common Lisp treats is as an error.
11:32	gfredericks	print-dup is really weird.
11:59	callenbot	Raynes: speed, laziness
12:09	actsasgeek	I use slimv for my local repl needs. Is there a way to talk to a remote nRepl process? Is there an alternative for vim?
12:10	Apage43	actsasgeek: https://github.com/tpope/vim-foreplay
12:10	tomoj	Raynes: consider the "always 2 spaces" rule from the perspective of a gedit user
12:10	tomoj	does it seem more attractive? :(
12:11	tomoj	I don't want to litter every repo with M-q commits
12:11	actsasgeek	apage43 thanks.
12:11	tomoj	maybe I can write a git post-commit that automatically launches emacs and goes through and M-q's
12:12	hiredman	tomoj: have you see https://github.com/dakrone/lein-bikeshed ?
12:13	hiredman	it doesn't have a check for 2 spaces, but if you can figure out a way to add one..
12:14	tomoj	well, the problem is emacs needs to be involved
12:14	tomoj	or I need to defect to cemerick's side
12:14	technomancy	magnars: the [:require] thing is because of indentation
12:14	gfredericks	if you're not shelling out to emacs you must be doing something wrong
12:14	technomancy	magnars: using () means the first element is "special", using [] means all elements are peers
12:15	gfredericks	technomancy: we could also use #{} for all elements are peers and unordered :)
12:15	TimMc	technomancy: or pairs
12:15	gfredericks	e.g., (letfn #{(...) (...)} ...) :)
12:16	TimMc	(except that doesn't allow repeats, oh well)
12:16	tomoj	oh, nice
12:16	gfredericks	TimMc: and kills the ordering
12:16	TimMc	sshhhh
12:16	tomoj	I was hoping not to have to add a letrec
12:16	technomancy	yeah, it would work nicely for CL-style let though
12:16	S11001001	gfredericks: is a positive
12:16	gfredericks	S11001001: but what about all my imperative code?
12:17	tomoj	don't use a map
12:17	gfredericks	oh supporting both? that's interesting
12:17	S11001001	untagged unions &c
12:17	gfredericks	so vector let is available but smelly
12:17	S11001001	warn on vector let
12:18	S11001001	warn on loop, warn on recur, warn on vec, warn on everything
12:18	tomoj	oh, you were discussing alternative let syntax, not an extended let?
12:19	ToBeReplaced	Today is excellent... coming back to clojure after a rage quit a few months ago to find the first conversation be a style conversation is the best! :)
12:19	S11001001	tomoj: you can just stick {} into let without breaking code, so w/e
12:19	S11001001	except for code walkers
12:19	S11001001	and macros that claim to work like let
12:20	TimMc	,(let {a b, 5 6} (+ a b))
12:20	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires a vector for its binding in sandbox:>
12:20	S11001001	but that's just the usual
12:20	TimMc	Worth a try.
12:20	tomoj	stick {} into let?
12:20	S11001001	yeah
12:20	S11001001	like, supporting let in common lisp is actually pretty hard
12:20	S11001001	someone, I think Gary King, wrote a library so that you could do it right
12:21	seangrove	Supporting let?
12:21	S11001001	writing a macro and saying "this part works like let"
12:21	S11001001	that is, inheriting all let's features
12:22	gfredericks	(defmacro let's [& args] (cons 'do args))
12:22	S11001001	except not "inheriting" because what would be the point if you weren't doing special processing?
12:26	hyPiRion	How is that hard? You just do some lambda magic and voilà.
12:26	hyPiRion	(let [a 10] (+ a 23)) => ((fn [a] (+ a 23)) 10)
12:27	seangrove	S11001001: Ah, got it
12:27	egghead	what do you guys think of prismatic's graph lib
12:27	seangrove	Emulating let then
12:28	egghead	https://github.com/Prismatic/plumbing
12:28	callenbot	https://github.com/bitemyapp/clojure-template-benchmarks does anyone have a benchmark idea or template library they'd like to pitch in?
12:28	S11001001	it's easy to implement let in your own macros, just expand to let. That's not the hard part. The hard part is when you want to say "this is like let, but..."
12:28	hyPiRion	S11001001: but what?
12:28	gfredericks	but lazy!
12:28	S11001001	but whatever your macro is for
12:28	seangrove	egghead: Looking to watch the talk today, not 100% sure about the use cases for it yet
12:28	gfredericks	but only allows destructuring up to 4 levels deep
12:29	egghead	seangrove: what talk is that?
12:29	hyPiRion	gfredericks: but lazy? Psh, that's easy
12:29	gfredericks	hyPiRion: is it?
12:30	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Fire up delays and wrap all names within derefs
12:30	gfredericks	hyPiRion: that second part has some edge cases I think
12:30	hyPiRion	After you macroexpand the whole shait, since you have to avoid overshadowing etc.
12:30	hyPiRion	gfredericks: yeha
12:30	hyPiRion	*yeah
12:30	S11001001	hyPiRion: also what's names?
12:31	gfredericks	hyPiRion: oh yeah destructuring would be difficult
12:31	S11001001	hyPiRion: now you've declared that your macro is sensitive to the exact specification of the destructuring language.
12:31	hyPiRion	S11001001: I am using common lisp, go away
12:32	seangrove	egghead: Can't seem to find the strangeloop conference talk
12:32	S11001001	hyPiRion: So instead of the let destructuring problem, you have the DECLARE problem. That's even harder.
12:32	hyPiRion	S11001001: declare problem? Elaborate
12:33	S11001001	(let (a b c d) (declare some-stuff-about-a-b-c-or-d some-other-stuff) (declare yet-again) ...)
12:33	S11001001	Now you want to do special processing on a, b, c, d that splits up the let
12:33	egghead	seangrove: ah, you mean the 'going faster with clojure' talk cross did?
12:33	egghead	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Why-Prismatic-Goes-Faster-With-Clojure ?
12:33	S11001001	First, you have to cut up the DECLAREs into what talks about a, what talks about b, etc
12:34	S11001001	and that's CL implementation specific, never mind that you have to parse every standard DECLARE form
12:34	seangrove	No, I think "Graph: composable production systems in clojure"
12:34	S11001001	a single declare can talk about multiple bindings so you have to distribute and duplicate in the right places
12:34	gfredericks	egghead: that talk was at clojure/west
12:35	S11001001	then if you introduce gensyms, say to simulate parallel let, you have to rewrite all the declares to talk about those, e.g. DYNAMIC-EXTENT
12:35	seangrove	Apparently the talk should have been made available a few days ago
12:35	hyPiRion	S11001001: Argh, you make my life frustrating
12:35	S11001001	hyPiRion: no, that would be X3J13 :P
12:36	seangrove	But I'll definitely check out that talk as well
12:37	hyPiRion	in hindsight though, making an e.g. lazy let would be very much in compiler land
12:37	hyPiRion	You've got to do semantic analysis, IR and error handling
12:38	gfredericks	hyPiRion: I tried to make an eager version of fn; that was also hard
12:38	hyPiRion	gfredericks: eager version of fn?
12:38	hyPiRion	Are you trying to implement let?
12:39	gfredericks	hyPiRion: it was to support currying; so if you have (curried-fn [a b c] ...) and you call it with two args, it precomputes anything not dependent on c
12:39	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Good luck on that.
12:40	gfredericks	hyPiRion: it pretty-much works: https://github.com/fredericksgary/currj
12:40	hyPiRion	currj, hahah. Sounds like curje.
12:41	hyPiRion	but spoken like courage, hm.
12:42	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Tell me whenever you want to make a haskell compiler in Clojure, I'll be up for it.
12:42	gfredericks	I always want to do that.
12:44	gfredericks	hyPiRion: you mean compiling haskell src to assembly?
12:44	hyPiRion	gfredericks: to Clojure.
12:44	hyPiRion	It'd be Haskell on top of Clojure on top of JVM on top of Assembly.
12:44	tomoj	why not a liskell in clojure?
12:44	gfredericks	yeah that's something I've thought of more often
12:45	gfredericks	is apply impossible?
12:45	gfredericks	I feel like you couldn't implement update functions like update-in
12:48	SegFaultAX	hyPiRion: That's actually not possible.
12:49	hyPiRion	SegFaultAX: What's not possible?
12:55	hyPiRion	I can't see any reason why a Haskell-to-Clojure compiler isn't doable.
13:13	technomancy	anyone got opinions about configuration of the repl task in leiningen? got a particularly tricky decision around :init-ns discussed here: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/pull/963
13:14	technomancy	trying to decide how much of Leiningen it makes sense to expose to the project and wondering what kind of configuration changes you might want to make that would need to be visible at runtime rather than just at repl launch.
13:37	patchwork	Hey all, anyone have a clue what is going on here? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14611033/clojure-leiningen-project-suddenly-broken-what-would-cause-this-maven-error
13:37	patchwork	I am having a dependency issue with jackson-core-asl
13:37	patchwork	just suddenly stopped working!
13:37	patchwork	something about a bad checksum?
13:37	technomancy	patchwork: typically a botched deploy to maven central or possibly a corrupt mirror
13:38	patchwork	technomancy: What can I do about it?
13:38	technomancy	patchwork: first suggestion would be to try an older version. if that doesn't work, you can update :repositories to set the :checksum setting for central to :ignore
13:39	patchwork	technomancy: But I am not including it directly in my project, some other dependency depends on it
13:39	patchwork	Also, it seems it is downloading every pom jackson has. I'm certain I don't need all these
13:40	hyPiRion	:exclude then
13:40	hyPiRion	and reinclude
13:40	llasram	Sounds like someone setting a version-range to me
13:40	patchwork	I will try setting the :checksum to :ignore
13:40	patchwork	crazy!
13:40	llasram	("someone" being a dependency library, not you yourself patchwork)
13:41	hyPiRion	e.g. [ other deps here [foo "1.0.1" :exclude [bar baz]][bar "2.0.0"] [baz "0.4.0"]]
13:41	technomancy	unfortunately currently you can't get a deps tree to identify the offender when resolution fails. (there's an open ticket for that)
13:42	technomancy	I don't recommend keeping :checksum at :ignore, but it can be useful to debug
14:02	ChongLi	version-ranges are one of the big reasons for cabal hell, right?
14:03	TimMc	"cabal hell"?
14:03	ChongLi	in haskell
14:03	TimMc	That's a new one for me.
14:03	hyPiRion	cabal hell is funny
14:04	ChongLi	it's very easy to get into a situation where dependency resolution always fails
14:04	hyPiRion	`cabal install cabal-install`
14:04	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: just got accepted into KOMTEK btw :)
14:04	ivaraasen	pretty psyched
14:05	hyPiRion	ivaraasen: oh, grats!
14:05	hyPiRion	You're one of us now, muha.
14:05	technomancy	if you've been skeptical of the requirement to sign jars you release, please read https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5139583 kthxbai
14:06	joegallo	phil, i never agreed with you until now. now i get it.
14:08	hyPiRion	joegallo: you've never agreed with technomancy ever until now, or on signing jars?
14:10	joegallo	lacking a witty response, just on the jars things
14:11	technomancy	heh
14:16	pgmcgee	\quit
14:18	hyPiRion	/quit
14:19	technomancy	clojurebot: alioth is http://www.ro-che.info/ccc/02.html
14:19	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
14:20	brehaut	technomancy: lol
14:25	hyPiRion	Uh..
14:25	hyPiRion	,[(+) (+ 1) (+ 1 2) (+ 1 2 3)]
14:25	clojurebot	[1 1 3 6]
14:26	TimMc	Someone has done something naughty.
14:27	TimMc	~suddenly
14:27	clojurebot	suddenly is !
14:27	TimMc	clojurebot: forget suddenly \|is\| !
14:27	clojurebot	I forgot that suddenly is !
14:27	TimMc	~suddenly
14:27	clojurebot	CLABANGO!
14:28	anars	(1)
14:40	TimMc	,(class +)
14:40	clojurebot	clojure.core$_PLUS_
14:40	TimMc	,(+)
14:40	clojurebot	0
14:40	hyPiRion	,(class +)
14:40	clojurebot	sandbox$eval128$fn__129
14:40	hyPiRion	shrug
14:40	gfredericks	repeat question: what do objects embedded in code have to do with print-dup?
14:41	hiredman	well, one way to embed objects in bytecode is to print dup them and then read them back in
14:41	TimMc	gfredericks: Records, originally, I think.
14:45	gfredericks	hmmm
14:46	gfredericks	hiredman: that makes a striking amount of sense.
14:46	gfredericks	how are vars referenced in bytecode?
14:46	hiredman	not like that
14:46	gfredericks	I figured not :)
14:48	hiredman	all the vars reference in a function actually go in to the functions constant pool (just a set of static final fields)
14:48	hiredman	and there is a static init method for functions that sets the value for the constant pool fields
14:48	gfredericks	ah
14:48	hiredman	which for each var does something like constant_pool_field = RT.var("clojure.core", "+")
14:49	hiredman	and where vars are used in the function, the bytecode reads from the fields instead of looked up via the namespace map over and over
14:50	gfredericks	that makes sense; so it has the strings to reference the var but they're only used on class init
14:50	gfredericks	so similarly to embed an arbitrary object you need a string representation and then to reconstruct it
14:50	hiredman	hotspot is unlikely (unable?) to inline across a map lookup, but the map lookup is removed from the execution path this way
14:51	hiredman	gfredericks: that sort of depends
14:51	gfredericks	so I had previously concluded that arbitrary data readers couldn't be used in code because of these issues, but it sounds like you would just define print-dup for the offending type and then it would be okay
14:53	hiredman	I have some patches to the compiler that make it easier for classes that know how to do their own constant pool thing to embed themselves in the bytecode
14:54	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/clojure/commit/9c3d863f5c5701f5bfb0cf669b7a0362391ce5b6
14:54	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/clojure/commits/reflection-method-caching
14:56	hiredman	when pjstadig brings up invokedynamic for clojure rich has mentioned he is interested in using invoke dynamic for vars
14:56	ChongLi	technomancy: what's the best way to (repeatably) install an emacs package that's not in a repo?
14:56	hiredman	which would, I think, replace the constant pool mechanism with an invokedynamic switchpoint
14:56	technomancy	ChongLi: you can do M-x package-install-file
14:57	technomancy	that will do byte-compilation and autoloads
14:57	ChongLi	ah ok
14:58	ChongLi	I wish there was some way to pull stuff down from github the way vim has vundle and pathogen
14:58	ChongLi	I guess pathogen doesn't
14:58	technomancy	ChongLi: there is also el-get and marmalade
14:58	technomancy	err--melpa
14:58	ChongLi	yeah I have melpa
14:58	technomancy	I don't like melpa because it's not selective though; there's no way to say "only get package X from git and use stable releases for the rest"
14:58	technomancy	ChongLi: it's almost always best to just get a lib into marmalade
14:59	ChongLi	So to remedy this there is a melpa.el package–available in MELPA–that will allow you to enable only certain packages or exclude certain packages. You can install the package manually by pasting this into yoru scratch buffer and evaluating it.
14:59	technomancy	it's so easy to do, provided you can contact the maintainer
14:59	technomancy	ChongLi: huh; interesting
14:59	ChongLi	well in this case it's just a color theme
14:59	technomancy	ChongLi: I'd be more interested in a melpa that only built from tags instead of git master
14:59	ChongLi	I don't think the maintainer is around
14:59	ChongLi	that would be sweet
15:00	technomancy	yeah, in that case something like el-get may be the right choice
15:00	gfredericks	can we make emacs run on nix?
15:00	technomancy	I don't like el-get as a default because it discourages proper release hygiene
15:00	technomancy	gfredericks: port nix to elisp, or package elisp with nix?
15:00	gfredericks	technomancy: the latter
15:01	technomancy	gfredericks: most of nix works in terms of PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH, you'd have to teach load-path how to be nix-savvy
15:02	technomancy	definitely doable
15:02	technomancy	but getting community buy-in would be more difficult
15:03	technomancy	if elisp had a module system you could do some amazing things with in-process checksum-scoped packages, but alas.
15:05	gfredericks	let's just stop making software for a decade and instead just make everything work with everything else
15:05	gfredericks	the business people can wait.
15:06	technomancy	I'm for it
15:07	gfredericks	at the end of the exercise we will have "X works with Y" and "X compiles to Y" are always true
15:07	TimMc	Excel compiles to irssi.
15:07	TimMc	Sounds legit.
15:08	hyPiRion	gfredericks: for any value of X and Y?
15:08	seangrove	irc is just a strange machine. No problem.
15:08	TimMc	heh
15:08	gfredericks	hyPiRion: only statements that could reasonably be said to be false
15:08	hiredman	weird machine
15:09	hyPiRion	Irssi compiles to Excel.
15:09	hyPiRion	I wouldn't be surprised if there were some excelbot.
15:09	seangrove	hiredman: You're right, my bad.
15:09	hiredman	invokedynamic might also be a way to bring omops to the jvm, which would be kind of neat
15:11	melipone	hello! How can I tell if a number is Infinity in clojure?
15:12	hiredman	http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr/research/omop/
15:12	TimMc	&(Double/isInfinite Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY)
15:12	lazybot	⇒ true
15:13	TimMc	&(Double/isInfinite 6)
15:13	lazybot	⇒ false
15:13	TimMc	&(Double/isInfinite (Long. 6))
15:13	lazybot	⇒ false
15:13	melipone	TimMc: thanks!
15:16	gfredericks	&(Double/isFinite 7)
15:16	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: isFinite
15:24	callenbot	weavejester: https://github.com/bitemyapp/clojure-template-benchmarks Is there anything particularly pathological about the hiccup code here?
15:24	TimMc	gfredericks: Apparently someone at Sun thought there was an excluded middle.
15:25	TimMc	What am I gonna do with these transfinite numbers?
15:26	lerkbot	howdy
15:26	lerkbot	hmm
15:26	weavejester	callenbot: The hiccup code isn't optimised at all in those benchmarks
15:27	gfredericks	am I evil for using user.clj to setup print-method stuff for joda DateTimes?
15:27	ibdknox	also, for whom is templating the bottleneck?
15:29	headshot	ah, much better
15:29	headshot	anyway: http://skillsmatter.com/podcast/home-27/clojure-at-nokia-entertainment/mh-6531
15:29	headshot	interesting preso
15:30	weavejester	ibdknox: That's one of the reasons I've been meaning to change Hiccup to write to DOM structures instead. Slower, but more flexible.
15:30	brehaut	ibdknox: people with uninteresting sites
15:31	ibdknox	weavejester: DOM structures?
15:31	weavejester	ibdknox: Like clojure.xml
15:31	ibdknox	brehaut: haha
15:31	ibdknox	ah
15:32	brehaut	(ibdknox which is to say its a bottleneck on my site i think ;)
15:32	ibdknox	lol
15:32	brehaut	of course uninteresting sites are trivially cachable
15:34	augustl	with clojure.java.jdbc, how do I insert records for multiple tables in one transaction?
15:35	augustl	hmm, seems I can just wrap it in a transaction, that will absorb the inner-most ones
15:45	weavejester	callenbot: Is bitemyapp your Github login?
15:52	rboyd	how I feel when the team keeps cranking out more ruby http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eBrb00pdGw
16:19	N8Dawg	Hi room, I've been looking through the Clojure source code, Compiler.java is a monster, anyone know of any plans to rewrite in Clojure?
16:19	brehaut	many plans, little action
16:20	N8Dawg	brehaut: any idea on who to collaborate with?
16:20	brehaut	N8Dawg: i fear you may need to dive into the jira for that
16:21	cemerick	N8Dawg: A couple of people have forked and done exactly that, though they've dribbled out into experiments rather than maintained alternatives.
16:21	SegFaultAX	There are a few key classes in clojure that have attained beastly proportion.
16:21	augustl	does mysql have anything like datomic tempids..?
16:21	gfredericks	is rich not terribly interested?
16:21	SegFaultAX	RT.java is another that comes to mind.
16:21	cemerick	kanaka's clojurescript self-hosting work is the furthest anyone's driven this sort of work
16:22	brehaut	N8Dawg, cemerick: i recall that clojurescript was a sort of proof of concept / step along the way?
16:22	cemerick	brehaut: my vague speculation is that it's far beyond that in terms of projected scope
16:23	N8Dawg	cemerick, brehaut: I'm thinking it doesn't actually have to be so complex, lets assume macro expansion is done prior, what am I not getting?
16:24	cemerick	any re-think of Clojure must bootstrap up to protocols and types to make it worthwhile
16:24	cemerick	(IMO)
16:25	N8Dawg	cemerick: surely its just a function: (compile-to-bytecode form) => byte-array
16:26	N8Dawg	cemerick: I'm trying to get a handle on the complexities i must be missing
16:27	kanaka	N8Dawg, brehaut, cemerick: my port is almost self-hosting. It has macros, protocols, types, etc. Using it to compile core.cljs (including what lives in core.clj in the upstream ClojureScript) is in-progress and tricky because of the multi-level interaction between namespaces, macros and the analyzer/compiler state.
16:28	N8Dawg	kanaka: sounds like you've had first-hand experience of this! whats the multi-level interaction between macros and compiler?
16:29	cemerick	N8Dawg: I am by no means the resident expert on Clojure compiler bootstrapping, but yes, you're missing a range of complexities.
16:29	gfredericks	keep reading Compiler.java and you'll probably get a feel for it :)
16:30	kanaka	N8Dawg: just the compiler/emitter part without macro expansion isn't too hard to port. There is some trickiness around namespaces/var but it's not too bad (i.e. you have to keep the namespace/var information around for execution time).
16:32	N8Dawg	kanaka: right i get the namespace var stuff, thats for thread local bindings, defs which are declared dynamic
16:32	cemerick	kanaka: BTW, those hearing news of your work at the FP meetup last night were duly impressed by the concept :-)
16:32	cemerick	That is to say, carry on.
16:32	kanaka	N8Dawg: hold on, let me find you a diff.
16:32	N8Dawg	cemerick: sounds interesting… what is it?
16:33	kanaka	cemerick: cool, I'll be talking about it at Clojure/West if there interested enough to spend money ;-)
16:34	cemerick	kanaka: spend money?
16:34	cemerick	Commercial cljs fork FTW! ;-P
16:34	cemerick	N8Dawg: what's what?
16:34	N8Dawg	kanaka, cemerick: whats the concept, i'm being nosey…
16:34	kanaka	cemerick: no no. I mean if they want to buy tickets to Clojure/West then can hear me talk about it. Or they can wait until the video is published too.
16:35	callenbot	weavejester: yes it is
16:35	callenbot	weavejester: you are welcome to fixxit.
16:35	cemerick	N8Dawg: https://github.com/kanaka/clojurescript/
16:35	weavejester	callenbot: Sent you a pull request
16:35	weavejester	callenbot: With type hints, Hiccup should only be a little slower than "str"
16:36	TimMc	Man, I should publish my poorly optimized templating code as a benchmark.
16:36	callenbot	hrm, okay. I usually don't let type hints slide.
16:36	TimMc	That'll get it fixed for free! :-D
16:36	callenbot	weavejester: I'm going to reject the PR, but integrate a separate type-hinted version of the hiccup benchmark.
16:36	weavejester	callenbot: Sure thing
16:37	kanaka	N8Dawg: clojurescript.net is the online version of that. Basically a ClojureScript REPL entirely client-side (no JVM behind the scenes).
16:38	N8Dawg	kanaka: sweet, i can't help but thinking, that for Clojure, 90% of the compiler pipeline should be able to be shared between host platforms, with just the emiter being different
16:39	callenbot	weavejester: thanks for submitting the improvement!
16:40	weavejester	callenbot: Comb is another templating engine that should have near-str performance: https://github.com/weavejester/comb
16:41	callenbot	weavejester: note stencil's results - is it possible to add caching/memoization to hiccup?
16:41	kanaka	N8Dawg: https://github.com/kanaka/clojurescript/compare/master...cljs_in_cljs The November commits are basically the analyzer (without macro expansion) and the compiler ported to Cljs. The work since is fixes to that and everything else.
16:41	callenbot	weavejester: like what stencil has that is. I don't think most template writers are going to type-hint their views so I'm seeking a "practical" way to close the gap with partial compilation and caching.
16:42	weavejester	callenbot: Type hints are really only there for when you need performance, in both Clojure and Hiccup.
16:42	weavejester	Usually the performance of templating engines is not your bottleneck.
16:43	kanaka	N8Dawg: a good chunk of the Clojure compiler is Java of which the compiler/emitter is a fairly small part. A good chunk of the ClojureScript compiler relies on that. Some of what I've been doing in cljs-in-cljs is porting the Java code in the Clojure compiler to ClojureScript.
16:43	callenbot	weavejester: usually, yes. but I enjoy this stuff. I'd still like to know what it would take to speed up hiccup absent type-hints.
16:46	kanaka	N8Dawg: but really, the complex part is namespaces and vars. Those two things are Java concepts/objects. They are _mutable_ data structures. There are a lot of subtle assumptions about how namespaces and vars and implemented and interact that have no analog in running ClojureScript programs (because they are gone by that point).
16:47	weavejester	callenbot: Might be tricky to speed it up much further. The type of a variable depends on how it's interpretted by Hiccup, and reflection in Java is much slower than pre-compiled types.
16:49	kanaka	N8Dawg, cemerick: one example of changes required for cljs-in-cljs (not related to namespaces/vars): symbols in ClojureScript are special prefixed strings which mean they can't hold metadata. The type/protocol code relies on passing around metadata on symbols. I re-implemented symbols as first class objects.
16:51	kanaka	N8Dawg: I have to get back to my real job now, but just as another example, ClojureScript relies on Clojure's reader. There is a partial reader implemented in ClojureScript. I had to expand that by porting from Clojure's Java reader code (syntax quote/unquote, anonymous functions, etc).
16:52	hiredman	syntax quote is nuts
16:53	hiredman	I tried to graph the flow control through the syntax quote code in the reader a few years ago http://www.thelastcitadel.com/images/syntax.png
16:53	kalizga	i keep wondering what :tag ; :dynamic, :static etc. do in context of DEFN forms .. especially in clojure.core fns .. i can't find any documentation on these things .. ?
16:54	N8Dawg	kanaka: thanks for that! I'll have more of a dig through
16:54	kanaka	N8Dawg: read through that changeset I sent. Once you somewhat grok that, and if you're still interested, jump on #cljs-in-cljs.
16:55	kanaka	kalizga: it's metadata that gets set on the var that the def* form creates that affects the behavior of the analyzer (for the most part).
16:55	cemerick	hiredman: bizarrely, that image won't open in FF
16:55	Bronsa	it did on mine
16:56	hiredman	huh, opens in my firefox
16:56	hiredman	I'm on 19.0
16:56	kanaka	hiredman: here is the initial port I did (there are bugs in it fixed in later commits): https://github.com/kanaka/clojurescript/commit/0345cadd2d3e3edda65d1f8616da8d4c55bce38e
16:56	cemerick	18 here; "the image ... cannot be displayed because it contains errors" shrug
16:57	kanaka	hiredman: it's not particularly idiomatic because it's a fairly one-to-one port of the Java code.
16:57	cemerick	hiredman: quite a stunning diagram
16:57	hiredman	kanaka: you might look in to using some of the syntax-quote as a macro stuff
16:58	kanaka	hiredman: I'm missing the reference.
16:58	hiredman	kanaka: https://github.com/brandonbloom/backtick
16:59	hiredman	I have a simpler version with less features (maybe more bugs?) that might be easier to get running in cljs https://github.com/hiredman/syntax-quote/blob/master/src/syntax_quote/core.clj
16:59	kanaka	hiredman: oh right, yeah. I saw that a few weeks after I did the initial port. It's on my list to circle back around to see if it would be cleaner to incorporate that.
16:59	hiredman	having it in the reader is gross
16:59	Bronsa	you can consider also blind's implementation https://github.com/Bronsa/blind/blob/master/src/blind/reader.clj#L762
17:00	Bronsa	bbloom's implementation is actually really nice, but it depends on clojure's syntax-quote implementation rather than completely re-implementing it
17:02	kanaka	hiredman, Bronsa: cool. I've noted these so I won't forget: https://github.com/kanaka/clojurescript/issues/25
17:06	Bronsa	also kanaka, have a look at blid's StringPushbackReader, it should be faster than the one clojurescript was using
17:09	kanaka	Bronsa: you have a link?
17:10	Bronsa	you might be interested in https://github.com/Bronsa/blind/blob/78b64980d19c91df904dcf90b01c42b15beeaeae/src/blind/reader.clj#L42-L148
17:10	Bronsa	except the InputStreamReader
17:11	Bronsa	meh. I can open a pull request tomorrow if you want anyway
17:13	kanaka	Bronsa: sure. It's Clojure so there will be some adjustment needed, but it looks like it might be straight forwards to port.
17:16	kanaka	Bronsa: I have a half done implementation of a line numbered reader for error reporting, but that one has column reporting too, so bonus.
17:17	Bronsa	right, do you want the peek-char stuff too?
17:17	Bronsa	it's used in some places to avoid the read-char && unread pattern
17:18	kanaka	Bronsa: yeah, definitely.
17:29	Raynes	callenbot: Type hinting the laser code speeds it up a bit too. Not sure if it's worth adding a test for, but you should try it and see what your results are.
18:21	headshot	asdf
18:35	seangrove	Has anyone used ClojureCheck and found it to be worthwhile?
18:55	Rich_Morin	I'm filling in the "Rich Hickey Contributor Agreement" for clojure and clojure-contrib. However, I'm not sure exactly what what to put in Project name. Help?
19:10	hyPiRion	Rich_Morin: Clojure should do
19:11	Rich_Morin	tnx
19:14	rplaca	I was just playing with endorsements on LinkenIn and it asked me "Does Rich Hickey know about Clojure?" Talk about a "we are not worthy!" moment :)
19:18	hyPiRion	rplaca: Yeah, someone else mentioned that
19:18	hyPiRion	It's funny
19:18	TimMc	"Does the Pope know about beanies?"
19:20	Rich_Morin	A couple of decades ago, a "suit" was standing in line behind a pony-tailed graybeard at a USENIX conference. To make conversation, he asked "So, have you been using Unix very long?". Dennis said yes.
19:22	amphtrox	anyone know were i can find a good explanation on macros?
19:28	patchwork	amphtrox: http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html
19:32	bawr	Rich_Morin: Ritchie had a ponytail at some point?
19:32	bawr	Rich_Morin: Other than that, it's a great story. ^^
19:35	TimMc	bawr: Of course he did, he wouldn't be an Elder if he didn't.
19:35	TimMc	Sheesh.
19:37	Rich_Morin	"He's probably best known for his long palindromes. Those of you in science fiction fandom may know him as chair of Disclave '95, as a member of WSFA and PRSFS, and as the guy with a beard and ponytail who was always playing with variants of Rubik's Cube at conventions."
19:37	bawr	TimMc: Photographic evidence suggests that dmr was the beard guy, but even that was well-kept.
19:37	bawr	Think Dijkstra.
19:37	Rich_Morin	http://alt.folklore.computers.narkive.com/RTG3MWCL/dennis-ritchie.2
19:38	bawr	Ken was the wild hair one.
19:38	amphtrox	patchwork i assume lisp and clojure macros are very much alike? anyway, looks helpful, thank you :)
19:39	bawr	Aren't Clojure macros hygienic by default, making them more like Scheme?
19:40	technomancy	clojure macros solve the same flaws of CL macros as scheme macros do, but in a much simpler way
19:40	TimMc	Right, I don't think you can accidentally make an unhygienic macro in Clojure.
19:40	bawr	technomancy: is there an article / blog post somewhere that does a compare and contrast?
19:41	technomancy	bawr: there are some overviews written by extremely ranty scheme fanatics, but I couldn't point you to that in good faith
19:41	bawr	Yeah, I see.
19:41	technomancy	if you just read stuff about CL macros and ignore everwhere it talks about symbol capture and needing to call gensym, you'd be good
19:42	bawr	Why don't you need genym in Clojure, though?
19:43	technomancy	because ` auto-qualifies all symbols
19:44	bawr	I'm not sure if I understand. Is it sort of like a namespace thing?
19:46	amalloy	&`(let [x 1] x) is a class of error you can't make in clojure: in CL, that x might shadow a user's x
19:46	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/let [clojure.core/x 1] clojure.core/x)
19:46	TimMc	,[`foo 'foo]
19:46	clojurebot	[sandbox/foo foo]
19:46	amalloy	&`(let [x# 1] x#) solves the problem by asking the compiler (really, the reader) to do all the gensym fiddly bits for you
19:46	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/let [x__85869__auto__ 1] x__85869__auto__)
19:47	bawr	Oh, I see.
19:47	bawr	Neat.
19:48	TimMc	Mind you, x# is only consistent inside a single syntax-quote -- if you want consistency across several, you need to call gensym yourself and unquote the symbol into the code.
19:48	TimMc	&`[x# ~`x#]
19:48	lazybot	⇒ [x__85903__auto__ x__85902__auto__]
19:48	bawr	,[`foo `foo 'foo `[foo foo]]
19:48	clojurebot	[sandbox/foo sandbox/foo foo [sandbox/foo sandbox/foo]]
19:50	bawr	,[`x# `x# 'x# x# `[x# x#]]
19:50	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x# in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
19:50	bawr	,[`x# `x# 'x# `[x# x#]]
19:50	clojurebot	[x__107__auto__ x__108__auto__ x# [x__109__auto__ x__109__auto__]]
19:50	bawr	Oh, now I see.
19:50	patchwork	All in all, Graham's On Lisp has the best discussion of macros I've found in general, as long as you are mindful of the (minor) differences
19:50	bawr	Did you guys read Let Over Lambda?
19:50	clojurebot	let* is ##(let [[x y] [1 2]] (+ x y))
19:51	patchwork	bawr: Yeah! Great book, the guy wrote it as kind of a sequel to On Lisp
19:51	patchwork	even though they are two different authors
19:52	bawr	Aye.
19:52	patchwork	it goes more in depth into some things graham introduces, and has some crazy macro acrobatics as well
19:52	amalloy	let over lambda is...okay. there's some instructive stuff in there, but you have to (a) put up with his contempt for any lisp but CL, and (b) not mind the fact that most of the macros are about mutating things
19:52	bawr	I skimmed it, but I'd really need to read On Lisp first, I guess.
19:54	patchwork	amalloy: Forgot about the non-CL hate, he is kind of ridiculous at times
19:55	patchwork	but the book has a giant LOL on the cover, I took a lot of it with a grain of salt
19:56	patchwork	Mainly, the stuff I saw him do with macros I haven't seen anywhere else, kind of a tour de force to show to what ridiculous extremes you can take it
19:57	patchwork	But not necessarily practical. More for mind opening than for day to day use
19:59	bawr	I don't remember seeing non-CL hate, actually. Guess I didn't skim deep enough. :>
20:07	ChongLi	technomancy: hey, vivid-chalk.el has your name on it
20:08	ChongLi	technomancy: you're all over the place!
20:08	hiredman	ls
20:08	lazybot	data dev etc home lost+found media proc sbin srv swap sys usr
20:28	gfredericks	clojurebot: cd data
20:28	clojurebot	datatype is see datatypes
20:28	amalloy	gfredericks: ITYM lazybot
20:29	callenbot	Raynes: I'm not opposed to adding it. More data is more data.
20:49	gfredericks	amalloy: oh. I did didn't I.
20:50	gfredericks	I saw hiredman talking to a bot and just assumed it had to be clojurebot.
20:58	ppppaul	what is the accepted way of converting a string to an int/long in clojure?
20:58	ppppaul	i've been using (Long. "234")
21:00	hiredman	Long/parseLong
21:00	ppppaul	&(Long "123")
21:00	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Expecting var, but Long is mapped to class java.lang.Long
21:01	ppppaul	&(parseLong"123")
21:01	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: parseLong in this context
21:01	ppppaul	example?
21:01	clojurebot	api examples is http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/API_Examples
21:01	brehaut	last edited july 2010
21:01	brehaut	good work clojurebot
21:02	xeqi	&(Long/parseLong "123")
21:02	lazybot	⇒ 123
21:02	ppppaul	i want to do a when-let, but with 2 + symbols defined
21:02	ppppaul	is that possible without nesting?
21:02	ppppaul	thanks brehaut
21:02	brehaut	ppppaul: ?
21:03	xumingmingv	&(Long. "123")
21:03	lazybot	⇒ 123
21:03	ppppaul	i find myself doing a lot of (when (and ....
21:03	xumingmingv	&(do (Long. "123") (System/exit 0))
21:03	lazybot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission exitVM.0)
21:03	ppppaul	i want to do (when-let [a (something) b (something)])
21:03	gfredericks	ppppaul: you can write a macro to do it
21:03	ppppaul	and execute only when both a & b are true
21:04	gfredericks	ppppaul: should the second something be evaluated if a is false?
21:04	ppppaul	no
21:04	ppppaul	or yes... don't matter to me actually
21:04	ppppaul	i'm wondering if this is done already (i assume it is)
21:06	gfredericks	(defmacro when-lets [pairs & body] `(let [~@pairs] (when (and ~@(->> pairs (partition 2) (map first))) ~@body)))
21:06	ppppaul	oh sexy
21:06	gfredericks	doesn't work with destructuring
21:06	ppppaul	i'm going to try that
21:06	ppppaul	wish i could write macros that fast
21:06	gfredericks	I wish I got paid to write macros that fast
21:07	ppppaul	i get paid to do clojure :)
21:07	gfredericks	I do too but it's always build stuff never "write macros that fast"
21:07	amalloy	ppppaul: don't be too hard on yourself, his looks a bit rubbish
21:07	ppppaul	lol
21:07	gfredericks	also when you write macros like me you have to put up with amalloy coming behind you to point out why it's crap
21:07	ppppaul	amalloy, will that macro work? i haven't tried
21:07	amalloy	since it evaluates b even if a is nil
21:07	gfredericks	amalloy: he specifically said that was okay
21:07	gfredericks	I asked
21:08	xeqi	previous discussion on if-let/multiple bindings: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/clojure/let-else/clojure/1g5dEvIvGYY/EWjwFGnS-rYJ
21:08	ppppaul	oh thanks xeqi
21:08	amalloy	then it looks like it would work, yes
21:08	gfredericks	amalloy: but also (when-lets [[a b] nil] ...) should behave wrong
21:08	amalloy	that too
21:09	ppppaul	abstract macro makes me cry
21:09	gfredericks	abstract macro?
21:09	ppppaul	i consider it a bit abstract
21:10	ppppaul	though, maybe all macros to me would be abstract
21:10	gfredericks	come to clojure/west
21:10	ppppaul	i've only written a few for dealing with testing with datomic and ring
21:11	gfredericks	http://clojurewest.org/sessions#fredericks
21:11	ppppaul	^_^
21:14	amalloy	anyway, when-lets is actually easier to write without those wrinkles than with them: https://www.refheap.com/paste/9120
21:16	gfredericks	amalloy: I will be disappointed if you don't come to the talk and heckle
21:16	amalloy	brace yourself for disappointment then, i'm afraid
21:18	ppppaul	holy shit xeqi thanks for the google group thread. it was a very interesting read
21:24	ppppaul	i will prace too
21:25	ppppaul	that's a pretty sexy macro amalloy
21:32	TimMc	Speaking of recursive macros, I wonder if that ->> bug is going to get fixed for 1.5.
21:33	amalloy	TimMc: did the patch not get applied? i thought it was going to
21:34	TimMc	amalloy: I don't know, you tell me: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1121
21:35	amalloy	wait, what the hell is the format of the "Created" field in jira? i tried to sort by it
21:35	amalloy	but the entries include "12/Jul/20" and "17/Jul/20"
21:35	amalloy	that first one could be july 20th 2012, but the second????
21:36	TimMc	amalloy: It uses the Mayan calendar, actually.
21:36	tomoj	some of the dates are in fact in 2020
21:36	tomoj	both of those, presumably
21:37	amalloy	so time travel is the only explanation
21:37	amalloy	TimMc: yeah, looks like it wasn't. i thought http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1086 had been, since it was simpler and earlier
21:37	brehaut	its most significant digit year format
21:38	tomoj	that's why the chart is all fucked up at http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS
21:38	brehaut	who needs to know more than a millennium and century anyway
21:38	amalloy	hahaha
21:39	amalloy	nice chart
21:40	TimMc	brehaut: That's distressingly believable.
21:40	tomoj	I never thought to post about it because I assumed people had noticed the chart and didn't care enough
21:40	brehaut	TimMc: it wouldnt be the most messed up date formating ive seen
21:40	TimMc	I don't think you can even get that from a standard formatter.
21:41	gfredericks	yay for CLJ-1153
21:41	brehaut	TimMc: people do like to work at making dates hard
21:43	amalloy	guys the comments in http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-4 are especially good
21:45	amalloy	just chouser, stopping by from nine years in the future to let us know that, as expected, it's Later
21:45	brehaut	ha
21:46	tomoj	"ordinary macros can act as compiler macros in cljs. Just define a macro with the same name as the function" huh?
21:46	brehaut	its remarkable that it was created on 17/jun/20 but fixed on 23/sep/11
21:46	tomoj	oh
21:46	TimMc	Oh, is this a result of the importer?
21:46	tomoj	does it break if the ns with the fn and the ns with the macro have the same name?
21:47	gfredericks	tomoj: probably not
21:47	tomoj	brehaut: sql constraints in action?
21:47	amalloy	tomoj: (defmacro + [x y] `(fast-javascript-addition ~x ~y)) (defn + [x y] (slow-whatever x y))
21:47	TimMc	It's not just formatting: "Wednesday, June 24, 2020"
21:47	tomoj	s/in action/inaction/
21:47	gfredericks	tomoj: the interesting part is that (foo 1) uses the macro and (map foo []) uses the function
21:47	tomoj	amalloy: right, in separate ns's
21:47	amalloy	then if you write (+ x y) you get the fast version, but if you write (map + xs ys) you get the function
21:47	gfredericks	tomoj: based on whether or not it is at the front of the form
21:48	TimMc	This is like inlining.
21:48	amalloy	tomoj: the macro must necessarily be in a different ns, because cljs doesn't have macros?
21:48	amalloy	so that's not really a relevant constraint
21:48	ajn	I'm wondering if I can do a comparison inside a doseq to populate a vector? This is what I have. https://gist.github.com/4679523
21:48	gfredericks	amalloy: you could have a clj ns with the same name though, right?
21:48	tomoj	but, what if they have the same name? :)
21:48	amalloy	don't populate a vector from a doseq. doseq is for side effects
21:48	gfredericks	(ns foo.bar (:require-macros [foo.bar :as fb]))
21:48	ajn	amalloy doall instead?
21:49	amalloy	no, just for
21:49	ajn	how do i populate to a vector inside the for?
21:49	ajn	cons?
21:49	clojurebot	unlink: and constantly is just a function that takes any arguments and returns whatever argument is given
21:49	amalloy	or whatever other sequence-producing function
21:49	amalloy	you seem to be looking for ##(doc filter)
21:49	lazybot	⇒ "([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the items in coll for which (pred item) returns true. pred must be free of side-effects."
21:50	ajn	i tried the filter approach but was having issues appending to the vector
21:51	amalloy	don't try to do it inside the filter. it's just (map some-functon (filter #(= whatever %)))
21:52	ajn	could i inline the function (map (fn [x] (filter #(= whatever %)))) ?
21:53	amalloy	shrug sure
21:53	amalloy	that does something different, but if it's what you want nobody is stopping you
21:54	ajn	i guess i might be missing the purpose of the function
21:59	TimMc	&(let [[a b] false] a nil)
21:59	lazybot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Boolean
21:59	ajn	amalloy something like (def config-values (map (filter #(= (:value %) config-name)) (doall results)))
22:08	zappps	Hi all, can someone clarify the clojure repository situation ?
22:08	zappps	clojars vs. maven? where should stuff be published??
22:08	lazybot	zappps: Definitely not.
22:10	xumingmingv	haha, lazybot sometimes is very hilarious
22:11	amalloy	yeah, -1 for heuristics this time
22:12	xumingmingv	zappps: Seems most clojure open source jars are published at clojars
22:12	xeqi	zappps: clojure libraries usually end up in clojars because its easier then central
22:13	TimMc	Is this a reasonable multi-clause if-let? https://www.refheap.com/paste/9122
22:13	xeqi	though if something would be of interest to the wider jvm community putting it in central would be better
22:13	TimMc	I delayed evaluation of the else-expr by wrapping it up as a thunk.
22:14	amalloy	well, you could delay evaluation of it by just expanding it in-place N times
22:14	amalloy	by making it a thunk, you made sure it doesn't have access to intermediate bindings
22:15	TimMc	I wouldn't want it to anyhow.
22:15	amalloy	sure, i wasn't saying that was an error
22:15	TimMc	In fact, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be useful anyhow.
22:15	amalloy	just that your claim about why you made it a thunk is nonsense
22:15	TimMc	Hmm, right -- clojure.core/if is going to do that anyway.
22:16	TimMc	Is there anything to be said for output code size, or debugging friendliness?
22:16	TimMc	That is, I see benefits to using a thunk, but no downsides.
22:16	amalloy	well, calling a function isn't free :P
22:16	amalloy	it's damn near free, of course
22:16	TimMc	True.
22:19	zappps	xeqi: lein finds in either regardless ?
22:19	TimMc	Dammit, if I call it if-let+ or expect the user to use it with a prefix (h/if-let), then the indentation is all wrong.
22:20	amalloy	TimMc: tell your users to get used to M-x customize-variable RET clojure-defun-indents RET
22:20	zappps	also does clojar timeout/slows down for everyone or just for me ?
22:21	xeqi	zappps: correct, clojars and central are the default repos for lein
22:21	TimMc	amalloy: :-(
22:22	TimMc	with-just-kidding-its-actually-if-let
22:22	amalloy	with-iflets
22:22	amalloy	brilliant
22:23	amalloy	with-sincere-apologies-iflet
22:25	frozenlock	Oh nice, relative links in readmes at github.
22:26	gfredericks	the maybe macro
22:27	TimMc	the macro monad
22:27	gfredericks	the burrito macro
22:28	gfredericks	any portmanteau of "macro" and "monad" just sounds stupid
22:28	gfredericks	except for "monacro"
22:28	DigitalJack	MacNads
22:28	gfredericks	brb I need to go start a band
22:29	warz	so would you say clojure is capable of being used for the same kind of programming that maybe like C# or any other language could be used for? this is kind a crappy question, but i dont know how else to phrase it.
22:29	warz	like is clojure sort of domain specific
22:29	TimMc	It's certainly not domain specific.
22:30	warz	and i dont really mean any other language, thats not fair
22:30	TimMc	There are certain domains where I wouldn't use Clojure, but it is a general purpose language.
22:30	warz	i mean like your typical languages
22:30	warz	ok
22:30	TimMc	For instance, I'd be hard-pressed to write a kernel in Clojure. :-)
22:30	warz	ya :p
22:31	TimMc	(That's what Rust is for.)
22:31	TimMc	I'd probably prefer OCaml (or perhaps Racket?) for heavy-duty numerics, but I haven't really investigated.
22:31	TimMc	For scripting... Python.
22:32	gfredericks	TimMc: by the end of this you will have convinced me that no specific domain is good for clojure
22:32	warz	my brain always explodes when i try to define "scripting"
22:32	warz	when i think of scripting i think of like, mirc scripting, php
22:32	TimMc	warz: I mean little shell scripts.
22:33	warz	things that cant really exist outside of their domain
22:33	ttimvisher	is there any meta information attached to namespaces by which i could look up the file they were declared in?
22:33	ttimvisher	i'm trying to enhance nrepl to support `M-.`ing into namespaces.
22:34	TimMc	warz: "PHP scripting" is a bit of a misnomer, since web server code doesn't have to be implemented as an interpreted language.
22:34	TimMc	By script I mean small, fast-start, short-run, no-compile programs.
22:34	warz	i just think of php as really suited for web scripting
22:34	Sgeo	"no compile"?
22:34	TimMc	"web scripting" isn't a thing
22:35	TimMc	Sgeo: sshhhh
22:35	Sgeo	Why does that matter to the usability of a language for a purpose
22:35	Sgeo	Except needing to transport interpreter around I guess
22:35	Sgeo	And self-hosting
22:35	TimMc	no-AOT-compile, I guess
22:35	TimMc	I want to edit and go.
22:35	Sgeo	SBCL is compiled but can feel scripting-ish
22:35	Sgeo	(Common Lisp)
22:38	ttimvisher	is an inspector on the roadmap for nrepl?
22:39	amalloy	gfredericks: isn't that true, though? lisp is a terrible language for any problem, but a great language for building the perfect language for any problem
22:39	warz	im just pretty excited to be learning clojure for some reason. i like picking up new languages and i picked up ruby, python and js/node really fast. i used each for about a year or so, on each.
22:39	warz	but with clojure my mind is like
22:39	gfredericks	amalloy: I'm not wise enough to argue with that
22:40	warz	really stretching haha
22:40	TimMc	That's a good thing.
22:40	warz	so its exciting to me
22:41	warz	i just find that i do a lot more staring deep into the pixels of my screen while i think about what im writing, haha.
22:41	gfredericks	think more type less
22:54	zappps	I get errors like: WARNING: get already refers to: #'clojure.core/get
22:54	zappps	is get a reserved word? Anyway I can get around this ??
22:54	lazybot	zappps: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
22:54	zappps	great
22:55	headshot	use the namespace of your get impl
22:55	Sgeo	refer-clojure
22:56	Sgeo	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/refer-clojure
22:56	zappps	headshot: can you show me an example ?
22:56	headshot	nifty
22:56	zappps	Sgeo: thanks
22:56	Sgeo	zaphar_ps, yw
23:08	warz	ibdknox, on light table, if you make a new file and accidentally use the same name as existing file, it doesnt have any prompt or anything. would be easy to save over it.
23:18	Raynes	I like that feature. Sick of prompts.
23:18	Raynes	I want my editor to laugh at me when I overwrite an important file.
23:18	desertmonad	Does anyone know license info for the clojure logo? (yin-yang lambda thing)
23:19	Raynes	desertmonad: IIRC, it's under the ask-Rich-for-permission-first license.
23:20	desertmonad	couldn't hurt :)
23:20	Raynes	There is this https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/clojure/fxecefDQuz4
23:20	Raynes	But Rich nor Tom ever actually decide on what it is licensed under.
23:22	TimMc	In the case of logos, trademark may be the more important question.
23:23	Raynes	I use the logo on http://tryclj.com/ and have for years. I never asked permission, and Rich hasn't subpoenaed yet.
23:23	desertmonad	I was just thinking about using it on a blog, which likely would talk about clojure at least some. But I wouldn't want to dilute anything. Maybe I'll just futz around with a lambda for a while and see what happens.
23:24	Raynes	I may have asked for permission and never received a response. Not sure.
23:24	TimMc	Raynes: s/bpoena//
23:24	ivan	subpoena: we demand to know... if you are really using that logo
23:24	Raynes	I was also like 15 at the time and not smart enough to worry about legalities.
23:25	Raynes	I know what that word means, fwiw.
23:25	Raynes	I guess sarcasm doesn't work well on the internet.
23:25	desertmonad	now you are getting recursive
23:32	ominen1	Why not tell me what you want? I can help. All I have is time