#clojure – 2013-01-22

2013-01-22

00:00	frozenlock	cjfrisz: No problem. I'm mostly in the same situation; learning JS with clojure :)
00:00	TheBusby	technomancy: I'm very tempted
00:00	TheBusby	though it might be easier to setup a proxy service and offer others. collect the bribes myself you see
00:00	technomancy	arrdem: any time someone says "I wouldn't use it myself, but it'll be great for newbies" my BS detector goes off
00:00	arrdem	technomancy: haha good rule
00:02	arrdem	why is the coffee always gone...
00:02	TheBusby	technomancy: "I wouldn't use it myself, but it'll be great for newbies" = pmap?
00:03	technomancy	TheBusby: pretty much
00:03	craigbro	i use pmap!
00:03	technomancy	you can s/newbies/presentations/ and it still works
00:03	craigbro	i use it quite a bit
00:03	craigbro	in production code even
00:03	TheBusby	craigbro: you're scaring me now
00:03	craigbro	however I do stupid partition tricks
00:04	craigbro	to limit the number of threads
00:06	TheBusby	speaking of core contributors, are there any that aren't US TZ? I thought a few were EU but couldn't tell who
00:06	craigbro	also, I exxagerate the quite a bit (two places)
00:06	TheBusby	craigbro: you'll like reducer's fold I think ;)
00:06	craigbro	yah, haven't had time to look at those yet
00:07	craigbro	I'm perpetually behind the times it seems
00:07	craigbro	didn't use paredit, was slow to pick up threading macros...
00:09	noprompt	i just wanna verify here, if i have an ns containing soley records the ns name should be (ns foo.types) or (ns foo.type)?
00:09	TheBusby	no worries, I still haven't played with reader tagged literals
00:09	noprompt	i'm confused as to what constitutes "heterogenous"
00:09	amalloy	noprompt: pick any old name you want
00:10	noprompt	amalloy: ha! i suppose that's fine too :)
00:10	craigbro	noprompt: lots of different things
00:12	noprompt	cool. every language seems to have preferred conventions and i'm still new to clojure.
00:13	craigbro	noprompt: I would callit foo.types
00:14	noprompt	craigbro: i think that makes sense
00:15	technomancy	noprompt: also make sure it makes sense to use records; most people who are new to clojure use them when they should be using maps
00:15	craigbro	noprompt: my collection of functions for importing frm a given data type I call foo.import
00:16	noprompt	technomancy: absolutely. i made sure to do a lot of reading and consideration before choosing them in my case.
00:18	noprompt	would a css compiler constitute a good use case for records/protocols?
00:18	technomancy	I think not.
00:19	technomancy	if you are considering introducing types merely for the purposes of dispatch it's likely that you're trying to treat clojure like an OOP language
00:20	noprompt	ouch. :)
00:20	noprompt	so what would be the right way to model it?
00:20	noprompt	maps, functions, and macros?
00:20	technomancy	maps and functions until you need polymorphism, in which case defmulti
00:21	technomancy	(but you will need less polymorphism than you think)
00:21	craigbro	i like to think of it as needed less typoed polymorphism
00:21	noprompt	ok, so originally i had gone that route, which is ok since i'm using version control.
00:21	SegFaultAX	Is there something like hiccup for css?
00:21	arrdem	herm.. how to do a recursive macro?
00:21	craigbro	and using lots of value polymorphism
00:22	noprompt	yes there are a couple libraries.
00:23	ibdknox	wow the pull requests thread makes me sad :(
00:23	amalloy	arrdem: that's too vague a question to answer
00:23	arrdem	amalloy: yeah it is...
00:24	SegFaultAX	ibdknox: ?
00:24	ibdknox	SegFaultAX: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/clojure/0gwjKtatf-0
00:24	noprompt	SegFaultAX: there's gaka and cssgen
00:25	craigbro	killer 1.5.0 feature; print-table output compatible with Emacs org mode...
00:26	technomancy	ibdknox: but not particularly surprising
00:26	ibdknox	technomancy: not anymore :/
00:26	TheBusby	ibdknox: I think it's only going to get worse as the community grows
00:27	ibdknox	it should
00:27	ibdknox	it's broken
00:27	frozenlock	technomancy: separated IRC channel? #clojurescript then?
00:27	SegFaultAX	technomancy: I'm only at the top of the thread, but #clojurescript is a thing.
00:27	technomancy	SegFaultAX: are there people in it?
00:27	TheBusby	ibdknox: I agree, I have tons of patches/updates/etc (not sure if they're worth anything) that have simply never been submitted because of all this drama
00:27	SegFaultAX	technomancy: As of now, like 6 haha
00:28	ibdknox	TheBusby: it has kept me from contributing :(
00:28	TheBusby	ibdknox: the great thing with git though is you can easily maintain your own fork
00:28	ibdknox	mm
00:29	TheBusby	though beta2 has broken some of my reduces stuff... :( Sticking to alpha2 until 1.5.0 gets released
00:29	TheBusby	s/reduces/reducers/
00:29	luxbock	should I use records, structs or just regular maps to represent a playing card, e.g. {:rank :K :suit :clubs} ?
00:30	technomancy	luxbock: maps for sure
00:30	SegFaultAX	luxbock: A map is probably sufficient. Even just a pair.
00:30	technomancy	or yeah, you could use a vector if you can keep the positions straight in your head
00:30	TheBusby	^^^ sarcams I hope
00:30	noprompt	so what is the ideal use case for a record?
00:31	luxbock	alright, I was confused because I've seen people use both structs and records, but yet someone here said earlier that most of the time neither one is needed
00:31	technomancy	noprompt: if you are implementing a very tight loop and you wish to sacrifice flexibility for speed
00:31	SegFaultAX	luxbock: When you want to have a distinct type, probably.
00:31	technomancy	luxbock: structs are completely deprecated
00:31	SegFaultAX	Whoops, noprompt ^
00:31	technomancy	luxbock: records are highly over-used
00:31	luxbock	alright, good to know
00:32	craigbro	so, if records are overused, what about defprtocol and reify?
00:32	SegFaultAX	technomancy: Do you mean defstruct is deprecated?
00:32	technomancy	craigbro: protocols are also overused. reify doesn't seem to be because most people understand it's only necessary for Java interop.
00:33	technomancy	SegFaultAX: yeah, I don't know if it's official, but there's no reason to use them
00:33	SegFaultAX	technomancy: Good to know. I knew it had fallen out of favor, I didn't realize it was actively cautioned against.
00:33	craigbro	ok, here is an example. I have a informal type, called sample-info
00:34	craigbro	it's a map witha set of keys in it, guaranteed to be there, tho it's usually merged with other information
00:34	luxbock	for the deck, I'm guessing I should use a vector? I need mostly to shuffle it and deal out cards
00:35	craigbro	what would be the way to mark those maps such that people could be sure those keys were there?
00:35	craigbro	err, what i mean is
00:35	SegFaultAX	luxbock: Vector works great. I have some sample code if you like?
00:35	craigbro	I want to throw an error if I pass in a map that has one of those keys missing
00:35	technomancy	craigbro: just use preconditions
00:35	craigbro	I would prefer not to use runtime preconditions
00:36	luxbock	SegFaultAX: yes please
00:36	SegFaultAX	craigbro: Why do you need to strictly enforce the presence of keys?
00:36	craigbro	and I also want some form of documnetation, or making explicit, that this is a known map
00:36	SegFaultAX	luxbock: Crud, it's on my other laptop. Sec.
00:36	luxbock	I'm trying to build an equity calculator for poker as an excercise
00:37	technomancy	craigbro: you have all the tools you need to do that in defn
00:37	noprompt	i should have joined this room sooner :)
00:37	frozenlock	Aaaaand I killed my browser #(let [lock (atom true)] (some-async fn... (reset! lock nil)) (while @lock ))
00:38	craigbro	I guess the real goal is that i want a shared abstract that other programmers on the team can use
00:38	craigbro	not so much throw an error if a key is missing
00:38	craigbro	hmmm
00:38	alexbaranosky	craigbro: https://github.com/runa-dev/clj-schema ?
00:38	craigbro	I guess I miss the pedagogical role that class/types play in OO langs
00:38	craigbro	or even functioanl langs with static typing
00:39	SrPx	What's Clojure's equivalent to CL's progn?
00:40	technomancy	craigbro: you can write Clojure that way, but it's not necessary and doesn't help much
00:40	technomancy	SrPx: do
00:40	SrPx	technomancy: ty
00:40	craigbro	do?
00:40	clojurebot	do does not
00:40	Raynes	&(do :you :love :me?)
00:40	lazybot	⇒ :me?
00:41	SrPx	c:
00:41	luxbock	SegFaultAX: I have to run but I'll get back to you later about that sample code, thanks
00:41	SegFaultAX	luxbock: I have it
00:41	noprompt	SegFaultAX: i think i'd still like to see it
00:41	SegFaultAX	luxbock: https://gist.github.com/4592392
00:41	craigbro	technomancy: oh, but it does help
00:41	luxbock	ah nice, ty
00:42	SegFaultAX	luxbock: It's part of a project I'm building to tutor a friend of mine interested in clojure.
00:42	craigbro	technomancy: when you have a team working on a dynamic language like clojure
00:42	luxbock	cool
00:42	SegFaultAX	luxbock: But it is a mostly functioning blackjack game.
00:42	craigbro	clj-schema might do the trick
00:43	technomancy	craigbro: people aren't going to suddenly forget to pass in the right arguments just because you're not using a record type
00:43	SegFaultAX	noprompt: ^
00:43	noprompt	SegFaultAX: ty, reading it now.
00:44	craigbro	technomancy: surr they will, or more likely the return value of some function they called that previously returned a map of that type, has changed and no longer does
00:44	craigbro	technomancy: I would prefer a runtime error or at least warning, instead of something like silenty returning a weird/nil value or something
00:45	craigbro	technomancy: I am not arguing for records either
00:45	technomancy	if you had a proper type inference engine it would catch something like that, but records are a long way from that
00:46	TheBusby	craigbro: I think it's safe to say that the above isn't "normal" Clojure, so unless you really feel confident you're doing the right thing, don't.
00:46	craigbro	technomancy: yah, without the static checks, preconditions are the obivous choice, precondition + clj-schema might be the sweet spot
00:47	craigbro	technomancy: right now, I do it via documentation, naming convention for fn params
00:47	craigbro	aka convention
00:47	craigbro	TheBusby: what is the "above"?
00:48	SegFaultAX	noprompt: I'm open to comments if you have any. There are some weird parts because it's an interactive port of a Python implementation. We're still building up to a completely working game.
00:48	craigbro	I always dug CLs type system
00:48	craigbro	opt-in
00:49	craigbro	when I saw the work on a typed CLJ, I immediately thought of that
00:49	noprompt	SegFaultAX: oh, i think i'm far from being able to make judgements about the code. i've only been using clojure for about 2.5 months, and mostly in my free time.
00:49	technomancy	even that is a long way from a proper inference engine unfortunately
00:49	SegFaultAX	noprompt: Oh, cool. Welcome! :)
00:49	craigbro	yah
00:49	craigbro	I could dig being able to use something like the type hints tho
00:50	noprompt	SegFaultAX: but i'm going to meditate on it and the comments others have made.
00:50	craigbro	to say "this kind of map"
00:50	TheBusby	craigbro: just adding my vote to ditch records and listen to technomancy. There are a number of specialized Clojure features that look really cool, but should only be used in special circumstances.
00:50	craigbro	TheBusby: the use of records is not even on the table here
00:50	TheBusby	craigbro: sorry, nmind then
00:51	craigbro	TheBusby: I am using maps now, but I wanted some kind of notation/representation of the "types" of the maps I use
00:51	noprompt	i'm slowly backseating ruby as my primary programming language in favor of clojure at work. :)
00:51	noprompt	ruby's nice for shell scripts though.
00:51	TheBusby	{:type :magic: :data "foo"}
00:53	SegFaultAX	noprompt: In my day job I do mostly Ruby, and Erlang before that. I have mixed emotions about Ruby as a language; there are some features that I absolutely adore, but the vast majority is just needlessly complex.
00:53	craigbro	I guess I wish type hints ala #^foo didn't have to be java classes
00:54	SegFaultAX	craigbro: What other type hints would there be?
00:54	craigbro	protoclols?
00:55	TheBusby	you could play with typed-clojure maybe?
00:55	SegFaultAX	Is typed-clojure actually in a usable state?
00:56	amalloy	craigbro: hinting protocols would do no good to the core language. so you might as well use your own custom tags that the compiler will just ignore
00:56	craigbro	amalloy: that's the conclusion I just came to in my repl 8^)
00:56	amalloy	(defn ^:int foo [^:stringable x])
00:56	amalloy	not that i'd want to read such code
00:56	noprompt	SegFaultAX: i agree. ruby used to make me feel very happy, and in many ways it still does. but OO feels a bit like a cage after working more with FP langs.
00:57	craigbro	amalloy: really a docstring is just as good then
00:58	craigbro	and if I wanted anything more, I could use preconditions and clj-schema
00:58	adu	ooo typed clojure
00:58	craigbro	thanks yall
00:59	adu	I thought it was (defn ^int foo [^stringable x])
01:00	craigbro	adu: the : makes it a keyword, which makes the compiler ignore it
01:00	craigbro	which is what we want, as it's a tag for humans, and not a tag for the compiler (in this case)
01:01	SegFaultAX	That seems like it could be problematic.
01:01	adu	what if you have a type called "private"?
01:01	SegFaultAX	Is a 1 character difference visually distinctive enough to signal that this type hint, aint.
01:02	SegFaultAX	adu: I don't think you could since that's a keyword in Java.
01:02	craigbro	one char and a color in emacs 8^)
01:04	craigbro	SegFaultAX: I think I prefer docstrings anyways
01:04	craigbro	as they will show up when a user asks for the documentation of the fn, but the type hints get dropped
01:04	SegFaultAX	craigbro: I agree with that.
01:11	tomoj	wish I could extend ILookup (and, hell, IAssociative?) to java.net.URI
01:12	tomoj	(assoc #uri "/foo" :query-params {:bar 3})
01:15	noprompt	technomancy: i noticed you contributed to cssgen, the project uses records. it hasn't been updated in some time, in hind site would you say records are not needed?
01:15	noprompt	s/are not/were not
01:16	craigbro	urls/uris don't store query params as maps tho
01:17	craigbro	clojurewerkz or someone out there has a bit of code that explodes/compsoes urls into/outof maps
01:17	craigbro	easy enought o write yourself too, plus handle things like specifying a map for query params...
01:20	tomoj	that's what I'm doing now
01:20	tomoj	but I want to just make java.net.URI better
01:21	tomoj	I guess I don't have a right to extend core protocols to URI
01:21	craigbro	proxy?
01:21	clojurebot	proxy is not reify
01:22	SegFaultAX	craigbro: Citation needed. I'd like to see that :)
01:22	craigbro	citation for what?
01:23	tomoj	URI is final
01:23	SegFaultAX	craigbro: "explodes/compsoes urls into/outof maps" this is immediately relevant to something I'm working on. Happen to remember where you read it?
01:23	tomoj	I don't think I want to proxy it anyway
01:23	craigbro	I was thinking of this: https://github.com/michaelklishin/urly
01:23	SegFaultAX	craigbro: Thanks!
01:23	amalloy	doesn't cemerick have a uri library?
01:24	tomoj	cemerick.url?
01:24	clojurebot	cemerick: Yeah, MacKay's book is great too.
01:24	SegFaultAX	amalloy: This one? https://github.com/cemerick/url
01:25	amalloy	i'd try that before the one from clojureworks, personally
01:25	craigbro	tomoj: fuck, URI is declared final
01:25	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Oh man, this is exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks!
01:26	xeqi	cemerick is full of useful libraries
01:26	SegFaultAX	amalloy: I was basically porting this functionality from Python and it appears cemerick has already done it.
01:26	Raynes	amalloy: The one from cemerick is great for URLs specifically, but not URIs in general. Not sure about the clojurewerks one, but I've avoided it because it blows my mind that you'd need to use Java directly to do whatever that thing does.
01:27	craigbro	Raynes: your avg URL parsing is pretty simple, true, but full coverage, can be a pain, and might as well use the java libs if you are in clojure already
01:27	tomoj	(.mutatePath u "/Protocols") ???
01:27	lazybot	tomoj: Yes, 100% for sure.
01:27	Raynes	craigbro: No.
01:28	Raynes	craigbro: I mean, they hava Java source files in the code.
01:28	tomoj	https://github.com/wtetzner/exploding-fish
01:28	Raynes	You'd definitely want to use the Java URI stuff.
01:28	Raynes	tomoj: I've used exploding fish. It was nice
01:29	craigbro	Raynes: oh, that's kinda gross
01:29	SegFaultAX	Who maintains clojuredocs.org?
01:29	Raynes	I think nobody at this point.
01:29	tomoj	I wonder if I'm allowed to extend ILookup to goog.Uri in cljs
01:30	SegFaultAX	Raynes: Is it looking for a maintainer? Is there a better online source for up-to-date clojure documentation?
01:30	Raynes	SegFaultAX: It is a ruby codebase so nobody wants to maintain it.
01:30	Raynes	I think people are hopeful someone will come with a Clojure version and light the way.
01:31	Raynes	Also, it might be closed source.
01:31	Raynes	Which is mindblowingly awesome.
01:32	SegFaultAX	https://github.com/zkim/clojuredocs
01:32	Raynes	Okay, in that case it was closed source when it first came out.
01:32	Raynes	I know it was at some point.
01:33	craigbro	it's all open sources
01:35	craigbro	I prefer emacs' ability to open a jar
01:36	craigbro	and then I read the code
01:36	noprompt	oh! i simply love closed source!
01:36	noprompt	it's like commercial grade orange juice. it contains oranges*.
01:37	craigbro	well, there ya go noprompt, a project to transition from ruby to clojure
01:37	SegFaultAX	I don't really have any particular issue with proprietary software.
01:38	noprompt	craigbro: haha! i think rogue might be better for that! ;)
01:38	craigbro	wasn't there some big discussion about replacing it on the mailing list awhile back?
01:38	SegFaultAX	Except for datomic. I really want to crack datomic open and see how it works.
01:39	noprompt	rogue needs a ton of work too as i'm sure clojuredocs does
01:40	craigbro	what is rogue?
01:40	noprompt	rouge is a clojure for ruby
01:41	noprompt	the problem is, the more you use clojure, the less you want to work with ruby
01:42	noprompt	more generally the more you FP the less you want to OOP
01:42	noprompt	at least this has been my experience
01:42	SegFaultAX	noprompt: It isn't really an OOP thing, I think.
01:43	SegFaultAX	noprompt: OOP and FP are really orthogonal in a lot of ways.
01:43	SegFaultAX	noprompt: It so happens that OOP in a languages means lots of mutable state, which is a shame.
01:43	SegFaultAX	In a lot of languages*
01:44	noprompt	SegFaultAX: yeah, that's usually why constants are commonly frozen or simply placed in refs in ruby.
01:45	noprompt	s/refs/defs
01:45	SegFaultAX	noprompt: Well, "constants" aren't really constants in Ruby. And frozen-ness is something else.
01:46	SegFaultAX	noprompt: Anyway, I'm simply saying that it's possible to have a language that combines FP and OOP successfully (eg Scala)
01:46	Sgeo	It's really not difficult to imagine a purely-functional OO system
01:46	Sgeo	I would like to see one
01:47	Sgeo	More difficult may be purely-functional + Smalltalk-like environment
01:47	SegFaultAX	Sgeo: I think Scala is pretty close. It isn't pure in the sense that functions are still technically non-deterministic. But it's a good example of a mixture of both paradigms, I think.
01:48	noprompt	perhaps it's just been my general experience with programming in an OO style and the mentality of it's proponents
01:49	noprompt	arguments about design based solely on empiricism, design patterns, etc.
01:49	SegFaultAX	noprompt: I blame the bloggers. They often (incorrectly) set FP and OOP as diametrically opposed when they really aren't.
01:49	noprompt	SegFaultAX: i can appreciate that and agree.
01:50	SegFaultAX	Can someone please g-line Inoperable?
01:50	noprompt	SegFaultAX: but many books are also guilty of the same charge, which is not surprise since many of those authors are likely the same bloggers you're referring to.
01:51	craigbro	well
01:51	craigbro	object identity, which is one of several core parts of OO, is antithetical to FP
01:52	craigbro	polymorphism, encapsulation, inheritance are not
01:53	Sgeo	Is inheritance even a core part of OO?
01:53	craigbro	nope
01:53	craigbro	well, class inheritance isn't there are prototype based OO languages, JS for example
01:54	cark	oo is a collection of properties (inheritance being one of these). pick any 3 and you have proper OO
01:54	cark	in my opinion
01:54	cark	=P
01:55	SegFaultAX	cark: That's part of the problem, isn't it? The fact that you can have an /opinion/ on the /definition/ of OOP. It's kind of a meaningless phrase, a catchall for certain types of common patterns and behaviors.
01:56	cark	you have the same problem about functional programming
01:56	cark	some people cannot imagine proper FP without a strong type system à la ML
01:56	noprompt	SegFaultAX: it really is and i think you're right. ask a dozen programmers what OOP is and you'll likely get that many answers.
01:56	ChongLi	functional programming is programming with functions; what's the problem?
01:56	Sgeo	I wonder if there's anyone who would hold the opinion that Smalltalk isn't real OO
01:57	SegFaultAX	Sgeo: It would be ironic, wouldn't it?
01:57	ChongLi	cark: those people are silly
01:57	cark	ChongLi: see that definition is too broad even for me =P
01:57	ChongLi	cark: it depends on the definition of function
01:57	ChongLi	and that's how it really ought to be
01:58	adu	Smalltalk is the definition of OO
01:58	Sgeo	Maybe someone so caught up on syntax that they think . for method call is somehow fundamental
01:58	cark	ChongLi: how about the purely functional crowd ...
01:58	ChongLi	they've added an extra qualifier
01:58	ChongLi	"purely"
01:59	cark	take clojure as an example
01:59	SegFaultAX	Well a "pure function" is different from the function most people think of when they think about "functions"
01:59	cark	it isn4t really purely functional
01:59	ChongLi	no, it doesn't enforce purity
01:59	cark	but purity has a big role in clojure nevertheless
01:59	ChongLi	take javascript as another example
01:59	adu	and scheme people would say clojure is unhygenic
02:00	ChongLi	I consider it a functional programming language
02:00	ChongLi	and it's definitely not pure!
02:00	cark	adu: woah i wouldn't mix that in =P
02:00	adu	haha
02:00	ChongLi	yeah, macros have nothing to do with it
02:00	Sgeo	adu, I think most Clojure people who agree that Clojure is unhygienic but that it doesn't pose a severe problem
02:00	cark	ChongLi: indeed
02:00	Sgeo	Although I would say it's more hygienic than CL
02:01	adu	even some scheme implementations are based on unhygenic foundations
02:01	cark	ChongLi: so, i think across the realm of ML, clojure and JS we've established that functional programming takes many forms
02:01	ChongLi	macros in essence are merely the application of functions at a different stage in the process
02:01	cark	which one is true ?
02:01	craigbro	ocaml!
02:02	Sgeo	Does Smalltalk count as functional? It might not be "as" functional like Haskell in that things like function composition aren't easy, but that doesn't really mean not functional at all
02:02	Sgeo	It takes some a few functional idioms here and there
02:02	ChongLi	all you need for functional programming are first class functions with lexical closures
02:02	cark	Sgeo: i think there are some gotchas with blocks
02:02	SegFaultAX	Sgeo: I think the problem is that Smalltalk functions are non-deterministic.
02:02	SegFaultAX	ChongLi: Well, and real functions.
02:02	clojurebot	functions are maps
02:02	Sgeo	SegFaultAX, so not "purely" functional, sure
02:03	adu	cark: Apple blocks?
02:03	SegFaultAX	Sgeo: If you like.
02:03	Sgeo	cark, gotchas?
02:03	ChongLi	SegFaultAX: what do you mean real functions?
02:03	Sgeo	Well, I think historically Squeak blocks weren't closures, but now they are
02:03	cark	i'm no expert with smalltalk, but i think blocks were not really lexical closure until (somewhat) recently
02:04	cark	Sgeo: you beat me to it =P
02:04	cark	i blame the cat
02:05	craigbro	beddddddddd
02:05	adu	I really like clojure
02:06	cark	so do I... it's great...but sometimes OO is better suited
02:06	noprompt	adu: me too :)
02:06	adu	I wonder if I could write a clojure interpreter in scheme
02:10	SegFaultAX	ChongLi: Functions without side effects. Referentially transparent.
02:12	ChongLi	yeah, pure functions
02:57	tomoj	exploding-fish doesn't even work for me :(
03:09	Raynes	tomoj: I used to use it in refheap.
03:10	Raynes	tomoj: But monger does what I was using it for.
03:31	babyclj	hi, is there an elegant way to compare if a value falls between 2 values; e.g, test if X is between 0.5 and 1.5.
03:31	amalloy	(< x a b)
03:32	amalloy	er, (< a x b). you get the idea
03:32	babyclj	amalloy: ok so no bultin function to do those kind of thing -- pardon me, newbie. :-)
03:32	babyclj	thanks
03:33	amalloy	huh?
03:33	amalloy	that's exactly what < is
03:33	amalloy	&(< 0.5 1 1.5)
03:33	lazybot	⇒ true
03:33	amalloy	&(< 0.5 2 1.5)
03:33	lazybot	⇒ false
03:33	babyclj	nvm, I get it
04:16	ucb	does anybody know if there's an emacs mode to collapse forms?
04:16	ucb	I seem to recall that there was one somewhere...
04:17	ChongLi	collapse? you mean code folding?
04:17	ucb	yes
04:18	ChongLi	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2399612/why-is-there-no-code-folding-in-emacs?answertab=active#tab-top
04:18	ucb	if you had (defn f [a b c] (do-something...) (more exps)) you'd end up with something like (defn f ...)
04:18	ucb	aha! thanks ChongLi
04:18	ChongLi	hope it works well for you!
04:19	ucb	me too! :)
04:33	ucb	ChongLi: hideshow works a charm; especially after you add hideshowvis (for the +- symbols on the margin) http://tinypic.com/r/1jxgk5/6
04:35	ro_st	ucb: awesome, you're using riemann
04:35	ro_st	impressions so far?
04:35	ucb	ro_st: yeah, really nice. We've been using it at work for a while now. We're trying to upgrade to latest master but for some reason it's dropping packets :(
04:35	ro_st	eek
04:35	ucb	ro_st: but all and all, very nice
04:36	ro_st	how are you collecting dat?
04:36	ro_st	s/dat/data
04:36	ucb	collectd mostly
04:36	ucb	(you can see the beginning of the collectd parser there)
04:37	ro_st	we're using AWS, so we're looking into feeding riemann into cloudfront custom metrics
04:37	ucb	ooh
04:37	ucb	funcy!
04:38	ro_st	have you ever needed support for riemann, and if so, what was the support like? either from the community or the maintainers
04:39	ro_st	also, would you mind pasting the bit of elisp that does that folding happiness you demonstrate? a pm is fine :-)
04:39	ucb	ro_st: it's a standard package hideshow (comes as built-in in 24.x) and I added hideshowvis (from marmalade)
04:39	ucb	ro_st: I didn't do much other than enable hideshowvis for clojure-mode
04:39	tomoj	say you need to do some initialization once per entire test run
04:39	ucb	ro_st: as for support on riemann, we haven't had the need to reach out yet, it mostly works :)
04:40	ucb	ro_st: mostly = we haven't come across something that doesn't work yet, but I'm sure we will at some point
04:40	tomoj	I guess maybe you can use a hook?
04:40	ucb	tomoj: entire test run being the entire test suite?
04:42	ucb	ro_st: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/HideShow
04:42	ro_st	thanks, just installing the vis
04:42	ucb	cool
04:44	tomoj	ucb: yes
04:44	ucb	tomoj: I'm guessing you need to then tear down the state at the end?
04:45	tomoj	sure, but I'm thinking mostly of running with `lein test`
04:45	tomoj	if I'm running tests from the repl I can setup and teardown in the repl around my run-all-tests call
04:45	tomoj	and with `lein test`.. it'll just die off anyway I tihnk
04:45	tomoj	maybe not
04:46	ucb	well, if you're setting up a db and some tables they won't go away once lein test is finished
04:46	ucb	it it's just an atom or so, then yes
04:46	tomoj	it's a cljs browser repl environment
04:46	ro_st	ucb: working. thanks
04:46	tomoj	I don't think I can close the browser if I even can open one, so it's just them jvm piece
04:47	ucb	tomoj: for browser testing try clj-webdriver
04:47	ucb	tomoj: also see the section on fixtures http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.test-api.html
04:47	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.test-api.html and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
04:48	ro_st	ucb: used clj-webdriver?
04:48	tomoj	fixtures run per-ns though
04:48	ucb	ro_st: some, yes
04:48	tomoj	clj-webdriver looks interesting, but I just want to test cljs library code
04:49	tomoj	I don't need to automate the browser
04:49	ucb	tomoj: indeed; I don't know what you're doing but a long-running state is a bit of a smell if you ask me :)
04:49	ucb	i.e. normally fixtures should do the trick
04:49	ucb	"normally"
04:50	ro_st	tomoj, we got around that by putting the code in clj and using cljsbuild crossovers
04:50	ro_st	then we could use midje
04:50	tomoj	it looks like one.test creates a new browser env every time you use in-javascript
04:50	ro_st	but i'm guessing you want to test cljs specifically
04:50	ro_st	cljsbuild's advanced example config has phantom js stuff all wired up
04:50	tomoj	oh, no, it does one browser env per ns I guess
04:51	ro_st	phantom drives a headless webkit
04:52	tomoj	no microsecond timers, hmm
04:52	ro_st	https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/blob/master/example-projects/advanced/project.clj#L42
05:58	oskar__	If I
05:58	oskar__	o
05:58	oskar__	ops
06:15	nico``	test
07:40	borkdude	in emacs, when I have accidentally split a windows, with C-x 2 or C-x 3, can I undo it?
07:41	daimrod	borkdude: ,,winner-mode
07:42	daimrod	it's not #emacs /o\
07:42	borkdude	C-x 0
07:42	borkdude	daimrod I know, but the atmosphere in #clojure is better and half of the people or more use emacs anyway here ;)
07:42	daimrod	C-x 0 will remove the window, winner-mode is a mode to undo/redo windows configuration.
07:43	borkdude	daimrod ah, will look into it
07:44	bozhidar	borkdude: there are different kind of Emacs users :-)
07:44	bozhidar	borkdude: that said the atmosphere here is definitely nicer
07:45	daimrod	FSVO better.
07:46	borkdude	daimrod tnx, winner-mode is exactly what I needed
07:47	daimrod	borkdude: yw, I've bound `C-c u' to `winner-undo' and `C-c r' to `winner-redo' <right> and <left> are too far for me :)
07:48	ljos	Hi. Anyone any who have used jayq in clojurescript? how do I do $(document).delegate(...) . I can get the js to run, but not cljs. I think I am missunderstanding the api or something.
07:49	ljos	I would think it should be (delegate ($ js/document) selector event fn), but that does not seem to work for me...
07:56	zphds	hi all… Kinda new to clojure. Was playing around with 'refs' and I can't seem to wrap around why this tiny snippet isn't working
07:57	zphds	http://dpaste.com/887305/
07:57	zphds	Why is my ref-set not working?
07:57	borkdude	zphds you might want to wrap that in some parens
07:57	zphds	oh wait
07:57	zphds	yeah
07:57	zphds	duh
07:57	zphds	brainfart
07:58	zphds	borkdude, thanks!
07:58	borkdude	yw
08:08	no7hing	f
08:09	no7hing	damn, wrong window
08:32	gfredericks	ljos: (.delegate ($ js/document) ...)
08:36	Thallasios_Xelon	hello :)
08:36	gfredericks	somebody convince me not to create a date lib
08:36	Thallasios_Xelon	grefredericks you really help me last time thx
08:37	gfredericks	Thallasios_Xelon: phew!
08:37	Thallasios_Xelon	if a have a lazy sequence,and i want to print it,it will evaluate?
08:37	Thallasios_Xelon	because of the print?
08:38	borkdude	Thallasios_Xelon of course
08:38	borkdude	Thallasios_Xelon if you want to print every element that is
08:38	clgv	Thallasios_Xelon: the lazyseq usually does not print if you do not iterate over its elements and print them
08:38	borkdude	,(print (range))
08:38	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
08:38	Thallasios_Xelon	i think thats my problem,i dont interate
08:39	Thallasios_Xelon	ok i will figured it out
08:39	borkdude	sometimes you just see some LazySeq with some numbers
08:39	Thallasios_Xelon	also (let [x lazy1 ] x) is x evaluated?
08:39	clgv	borkdude: humm wait where did I have that from. maybe some special print function...
08:39	gfredericks	&(prn (take 5 (range)))
08:39	lazybot	⇒ (0 1 2 3 4) nil
08:40	gfredericks	Thallasios_Xelon: x isn't any more evaluated than it was already
08:40	Thallasios_Xelon	x is just a lazy sequence,not the result of the evaluation...
08:40	Thallasios_Xelon	?
08:41	gfredericks	x is whatever lazy1 is
08:41	borkdude	,(str (range))
08:41	gfredericks	your experssion is equivalent to just `lazy1`
08:41	Thallasios_Xelon	lazy sequences make me tired ,ok i will read more,thx guys
08:41	borkdude	&(str (range))
08:42	borkdude	?
08:42	clgv	Thallasios_Xelon: for evaluation your code or some print functions code needs to iterate over the elements of the lazy-seq
08:42	Thallasios_Xelon	(doall (concat ....) makes concat "non lazy"?
08:42	clgv	,(str (range))
08:42	clgv	,(str (range 100))
08:42	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class clojure.lang.RT>
08:42	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class clojure.lang.RT>
08:42	clgv	,(str (range 100))
08:42	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class clojure.lang.RT>
08:43	clgv	upps it's broken now
08:43	borkdude	:(
08:43	clgv	&(str (range 100))
08:43	clgv	Raynes: lazybot seems to be on vacation ;)
08:43	gfredericks	Thallasios_Xelon: it doesn't make it non-lazy, it just realizes the lazy seq; so the effects of laziness are removed, yes
08:44	borkdude	,(str (lazy-seq [1 2 3]))
08:44	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class clojure.lang.RT>
08:44	gfredericks	you're thought is probably correct, it's just misleading to say that it changes the behavior of concat somehow
08:44	borkdude	&(str (lazy-seq [1 2 3]))
08:44	Thallasios_Xelon	ok gfredericks i will kill the lazyness,for now until i know how it works
08:44	Thallasios_Xelon	bye guys thx
08:44	clgv	borkdude: but you are right, it was the string conversion. I used it in GUI
08:44	borkdude	anyway, this evaluates to "clojure.lang.LazySeq@7861" on my machine
08:45	clgv	clojurebot: botsnack?
08:45	clgv	clojurebot: botsnack
08:45	clgv	humm weird^^
08:45	borkdude	did I break smth again?
08:45	no7hing	not hungry
08:46	llasram	~botsnack
08:46	llasram	!!!
08:49	ejackson	i bet I know who is hungry...
08:49	ejackson	$botsnack
08:49	lazybot	ejackson: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
08:49	ejackson	yeeeeah
08:51	Bronsa	ciaolol
08:51	Bronsa	lol*
08:52	konr_trab	Why doesn't this work?
08:52	konr_trab	,(try (assert (= 3 4)) (catch Exception e "nope"))
08:52	clojurebot	konr_trab: Pardon?
08:52	Bronsa	, (try (assert (= 3 4)) (catch Throwable e "nope"))
08:52	clojurebot	Bronsa: Huh?
08:53	Bronsa	:(
08:53	ucb	,(assert (= 1 0))
08:53	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: (= 1 0)>
08:53	Bronsa	&(try (assert (= 3 4)) (catch Throwable e "nope"))
08:53	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! catch is bad!
08:53	Bronsa	whatever, use that.
08:53	ucb	heh
08:55	konr_trab	thanks!
08:56	clgv	,(println "I am back!")
08:57	clgv	&(inc 0)
08:57	lazybot	⇒ 1
08:57	clgv	ah lazybot is back :)
09:05	gfredericks	is the latest clojure still 1.5-RC1?
09:06	TimMc	I think RC2
09:14	no7hing	seems like this has been picking up speed in the last couple of weeks: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Promises
09:14	no7hing	can one dare to hope for that being in 1.6?
09:16	no7hing	as in: is there some history of design documents popping up and then appearing in (one of) the following releases
09:17	clgv	no7hing: well 1.6 is nowhere near so there should be a high probability ;)
09:18	Ember-	still waiting for 1.5 final
09:19	Vinzent	Swank still doesn't work with the latest RC :(
09:21	alexnixon	I'm seeing a bug in production ca
09:21	alexnixon	sigh try that again..
09:22	clgv	no7hing: well you can use these features with the linked lib
09:23	alexnixon	I'm seeing a bug in my compojure application whereby a "deref" call throws an InterruptedException (however there are no .interrupt calls in my code). So something is calling .interrupt on my thread, but I have no idea what. Minimal example of the exception here: https://www.refheap.com/paste/8859
09:24	alexnixon	does anyone know in what circumstance this might occur?
09:26	alexnixon	answering my own question: looking at the implementation of future-cancel, it seems that may interrupt a thread. So in Clojure, if you cancel a future which is blocked by a deref, you may get an InterruptedException. Is this a bug?
09:26	no7hing	@clgv do you mean with clique?
09:28	no7hing	it's been some month since i've looked in there
09:28	weavejester	alexnixon: Interrupts generally result in an InterruptedException for threads.
09:28	no7hing	looks like it's coming along nicely though
09:29	clgv	no7hing: yeah. thats the one linked on the page
09:29	alexnixon	weavejester: yeah that's fair enough, what I find surprising is InterruptException bugging me when I'm using only Clojure constructs, despite it not being mentioned in the docs
09:30	weavejester	alexnixon: It sounds like a doc problem then. My guess is that it's desired behaviour, as otherwise you wouldn't know if a future was canceled or not.
09:34	no7hing	checked it last time in september and he's really been on a run since then
09:36	alexnixon	weavejester: it doesn't seem particularly intuitive to me. The exception is being thrown from within the thread that is being cancelled. So if it gets cancelled when on line 26 (say, computing (+ 2 2)) it doesn't throw an exception. If it gets cancelled when on line 27 (deref @p 1 :foo), it does throw an exception.
09:36	alexnixon	weavejester: (that's what I believe to be true, though I could be wrong)
09:37	weavejester	I believe InterruptedException only occurs for blocking I/O
09:37	weavejester	Which deref does, I think
09:38	weavejester	I might be wrong about that though, looking at the docs
09:38	alexnixon	it uses http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/Future.html under the hood
09:38	alexnixon	(futures, that is)
09:40	alexnixon	and promises are built on CountDownLatches http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/CountDownLatch.html#await()
09:40	alexnixon	which is an InterruptedException-throwing blocking call
09:51	clojure-newb	hey guys, I'm looking for a concise/elegant way to remove a given item from every nested vector in a vector, always the same element… was hoping to find a 'delete-in', any ideas ?
09:51	clgv	alexnixon: yeah a promise uses a countdownlatch
09:51	clojure-newb	data might be [[123 "blurb" :something][321 "more blurb" :something]]
09:51	clojure-newb	and lets say I want to remove :something
09:52	gfredericks	clojure-newb: do you need the resulting structures to be vectors as well?
09:52	clojure-newb	gfredericks: not particularly
09:53	gfredericks	,(map #(remove #{:something} %) [[123 "blurb" :something][321 "more blurb" :something]])
09:54	clojure-newb	gfredericks: nice, using sets ?
09:55	gfredericks	yeah, #{:something} is a function that returns :something when you pass it :something or nil otherwise
09:55	gfredericks	so it works as a predicate here
09:55	clojure-newb	cool, thanks!
09:55	gfredericks	,(map #{:something} [1 2 something [:something] true])
10:04	arrdem	is there a clojure debugger... some way to step through the evaluation of a form?
10:19	arrdem	w00t working combinator...
10:29	luxbock	what is the reason for why this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/8861
10:29	luxbock	gives me this: CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't have fixed arity function with more params than variadic function, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1)
10:31	gfredericks	can I extend a protocol to arrays? how does that work with array types being parameterized?
10:31	arrdem	luxbock: the issue here is simple, in the (format-cards <card>) case which one gets called?
10:31	arrdem	luxbock: see... the [& cards] takes 0 OR MORE arguments
10:31	arrdem	luxbock: there is no minimum of 1 as you assume here
10:32	luxbock	ah
10:32	luxbock	I see
10:32	luxbock	does the problem go away if I add in ([] nil) or do I also have to add ([card & cards] stuff)?
10:33	luxbock	appears it won't
10:33	arrdem	luxbock: you want to add [card & cards], or reduce out your [card] case into [ & cards]
10:33	luxbock	alright
10:33	luxbock	thanks
10:34	arrdem	no problem
10:34	arrdem	gotta earn my keep in this chan somehow XP
10:39	oskar__	What is the easiest way to replace a word in a string with (word), or something like that, i.e., I want to be able to reference the match in the replacement
10:42	AtKaaZ	,java.io.File/separator
10:42	AtKaaZ	,(-> "c:\\some" (.split "\\"))
10:42	AtKaaZ	&(-> "c:\\some" (.split "\\"))
10:42	lazybot	java.util.regex.PatternSyntaxException: Unexpected internal error near index 1\ ^
10:42	AtKaaZ	&File/separator
10:42	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: File
10:42	AtKaaZ	&java.io.File/separator
10:42	lazybot	⇒ "/"
10:43	S11001001	&(-> "c:\\some" (.split "\\\\"))
10:43	lazybot	⇒ #<String[] [Ljava.lang.String;@90f268>
10:43	S11001001	&(-> "c:\\some" (.split "\\\\") seq)
10:43	lazybot	⇒ ("c:" "some")
10:43	AtKaaZ	oh really?
10:43	AtKaaZ	that's odd
10:43	S11001001	AtKaaZ: the selection of string methods that actually interpret their args as regexes is utterly arbitrary
10:43	S11001001	I would trust String methods as far as I can throw them
10:44	arrdem	TIL S11001001 can throw bytes
10:44	S11001001	which is 0mm, since they are abstractions and not things I can pick up and throw
10:44	jkkramer	,(clojure.string/replace "a word in a string" #"(word)" "$1") ;oskar__
10:45	AtKaaZ	it's just that I've seen this code (.split File/separator) which obviously works with "/"
10:45	AtKaaZ	but fails on windows :))
10:45	S11001001	for example replace(CharSequence,CharSequence) does literal replacement, replaceAll(String,String) does regex replacement
10:45	S11001001	it's dumb.
10:45	AtKaaZ	that's what it does in java too right?
10:46	AtKaaZ	oh you mean under the hood those are used by clojure
10:46	S11001001	not so much under the hood as sitting on top of the hood, flipping you the bird
10:47	AtKaaZ	lol
10:50	craigbro	morning
10:52	phuff	G'morning :)
10:53	phuff	I have some config that defines which libraries to require at runtime
10:53	phuff	Like {:libspec "myproj.services.myservice"}
10:53	phuff	And I want to look at a variable in (myproj.services.myservice/short-name)
10:54	phuff	Or call a function in it
10:54	phuff	I can require it like this: (require (symbol (:libspec service-definition)))
10:54	phuff	But I'm having trouble figuring out how to refer to the variables in it when the libspec is in a string like that.
10:55	phuff	I tried: (ns-resolve (symbol (:libspec service)) (symbol "short-name")) to get the value of short-name in the lib specified in (:libspec service) but it didn't return the string I was looking for.
10:58	jkkramer	phuff: ns-resolve returns a var, which must be deref'd to get its value
10:59	phuff	jkkramer So if I want to get a variable who has a fully namespace-qualified symbol as defined in a string I don't use ns-resolve?
11:02	jkkramer	phuff: ns-resolve is fine (assuming doing what you're doing at runtime is a good idea)
11:02	jkkramer	&(ns-resolve 'clojure.core 'map)
11:02	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! ns-resolve is bad!
11:03	jkkramer	anyway, that returns a var and @(ns-resolve 'clojure.core 'map) returns the value - the map function in this case
11:03	phuff	Ah @ is what I'm looking for!
11:03	phuff	I was trying intern
11:03	phuff	But that wasn't quite right either
11:03	jkkramer	@var is the same as (deref var)
11:04	phuff	Intern kind of does the same thing though doesn't it?
11:04	jkkramer	no, intern creates a var
11:04	phuff	It looks like it can read a var, too, though?
11:04	jkkramer	intern returns a var if it exists, otherwise creates it
11:05	jkkramer	i think
11:05	jkkramer	anyway, reading the docs will answer it. gotta go
11:11	phuff1	Thanks for the help jkkramer
11:41	devinus_	gfredericks: is korma bad?
11:42	gfredericks	just magical
11:42	gfredericks	and changing apparently
11:42	AtKaaZ	magillion (magical cameleon)
11:43	gfredericks	I'm trying to figure out how it manages connections
11:43	gfredericks	or how to hook into clojure.java.jdbc to transform the return values from queries
11:48	gfredericks	seancorfield: ping
11:48	seancorfield	gfredericks: pong?
11:49	gfredericks	seancorfield: I'm trying to wrangle korma into doing what I want and am curious about your opinion re. clojure.java.jdbc
11:49	gfredericks	specifically I'm trying to support postgres arrays, and in particular I want to have them returned from a SELECT as sequences
11:50	gfredericks	my issue doing this in a korma transform function is that the transform function might be run after the connection is closed, and apparently the java.sql.Array type used needs to read stuff from the connection
11:50	gfredericks	so turning it into a seq at that point fails
11:50	gfredericks	I was curious if clojure.java.jdbc could support arbitrary transformations on types coming out, or something like that
11:51	gfredericks	I was looking at the resultset-seq function and can see a point in there where the transformation could be done, but that would require patching
11:51	gfredericks	was just mulling thoughts trying to figure out whether this is best done at the korma level or within c.j.jdbc
11:53	seancorfield	Yes, I've been considering that because it would make supporting a couple of Oracle quirks a bit easier.
11:53	gfredericks	one thought was a protocol in c.j.jdbc for reading jdbc types
11:53	gfredericks	which I guess would default to identity
11:53	gfredericks	to give the current behavior
11:53	seancorfield	My initial thinking was "No, it should be done by the user" but then - like you - I found a couple of places where it's too late for the user to do it :(
11:54	seancorfield	c.j.jdbc is getting a fairly major overhaul at the moment so now is the time for stuff like this if you can come up with a clean way to do it via optional keyword arguments or something (or protocols - I hadn't considered that path).
11:54	gfredericks	well I expect korma could be modified to make sure the stuff gets done before the connection is closed; I guess I thought there might be other reasons it could be nice at the c.j.jdbc level; worth asking at least
11:55	gfredericks	seancorfield: I could have a protocol patch ready pretty fast I think
11:55	seancorfield	'k
11:56	seancorfield	Git has the latest source (in the 0.2.4-SNAPSHOT - which will actually become 0.3.0 due to the API changes)
11:56	TimMc	korma chameleon
11:57	craigbro	me gusta korma
11:57	gfredericks	seancorfield: I think we're on 0.2.2, but hopefully the patch will be equally valid at both points
11:58	craigbro	gfredericks: i am heavy user of korma too
11:58	gfredericks	seancorfield: would a pull request be a good place for further discussion? or a jira ticket?
12:04	gfredericks	seancorfield: https://github.com/fredericksgary/java.jdbc/commit/c5ea0ac2b8a0fedc383b985c90c3f69956b1f287
12:04	gfredericks	tests still pass
12:12	technomancy	gfredericks: you troll you
12:13	gfredericks	technomancy: wat? why?
12:14	technomancy	"would a pull request be a good place to discuss a change to a contrib library?" =)
12:14	gfredericks	oh; yeah, I honestly couldn't remember if there were some edge cases where that was acceptable
12:14	gfredericks	after more thought it does sound unlikely
12:15	TimMc	I think CLJS takes PRs, but not contribs.
12:16	gfredericks	I knew I wasn't crazy
12:16	gfredericks	TimMc: no idea why the difference?
12:16	TimMc	Nope.
12:18	augustl	what does #' mean in a macro?
12:19	llasram	&#'var
12:19	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: var in this context
12:19	mattmoss	var, methinks
12:19	craigbro	whois maintaing korma now?
12:20	llasram	&#'deref
12:20	lazybot	⇒ #'clojure.core/deref
12:20	pjstadig	clojurescript does not take pull requests
12:20	llasram	There we go -- an example that isn't lies
12:20	pjstadig	that was the source of the whole thread on the clojure ML
12:20	augustl	hmm
12:20	gfredericks	that it used to? or somebody thought it should?
12:20	pjstadig	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/pull/20#issuecomment-11119404
12:21	llasram	&(map class [#'deref deref])
12:21	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.lang.Var clojure.core$deref)
12:21	edtsech	craigbro: alexbaranosky
12:22	craigbro	thanks
12:23	augustl	llasram: I don't get it at all :)
12:25	gfredericks	augustl: it means the same inside a macro as outside
12:25	gfredericks	the reader expands it to (var foo)
12:25	augustl	ah
12:25	gfredericks	var is a special form that looks up the var that a symbol refers to
12:25	llasram	My pedagogical approach needs work
12:25	llasram	(inc gfredericks)
12:25	lazybot	⇒ 14
12:25	gfredericks	phew; no more unluck
12:27	augustl	attempting to grok the "context" macro in compojure
12:28	clerksy	Is there a way to call "lein test" from nrepl? I am a long time vim user currently trying out emacs. I would like to not have to leave emacs and hit the command line.
12:28	craigbro	clersky: M-x shell RET lein test
12:28	clerksy	Ahh
12:29	clerksy	craigbro: Thanks, that clearly applied to all term commands then.
12:29	craigbro	well, all term cmds that don't need a real tty
12:29	craigbro	aka, don't use curses and just spit text to stdout
12:29	clerksy	Yeah
12:29	craigbro	however, you can also to M-x terminal
12:29	craigbro	if you want those
12:30	craigbro	it'll do auto paging etc..
12:30	craigbro	you can run top inside it etc...
12:31	clerksy	craigbro: Thanks :)
12:56	TimMc	pjstadig: I could have sworn CLJS had a friendlier development model, including use of git as collaboration tool.
12:56	Morgawr	hello, I'm not sure if this is the proper place to ask but is it normal that the default example for the clojurescript one project (bare app with clojurescript) doesn't work? I input my name http://www.morgawr.eu/clj/#form here and it doesn't show me the following view...
12:57	Morgawr	it works fine in development mode, but after I build it, that's what happens
13:01	technomancy	Morgawr: I get the impression clojurescript one isn't actively maintained
13:01	Raynes	I never found it all that useful to begin with.
13:01	Raynes	People mostly just misinterpreted what it was for, probably because of its weird name.
13:02	Morgawr	I was mostly looking for a way to get started with clojurescript.. Like, I just want a simple environment where I can create powerful clojure functions that I can use in a web page
13:02	progo	Humm... I've got enlive deftemplate NPEing on me. Googled for some results for bad paths but I use absolute paths that are correct.
13:02	Morgawr	everybody pointed me to clojurescript one as the best place to start tinkering
13:05	luxbock	is there an easy way to use a map as though it's keys and values were reversed?
13:05	technomancy	luxbock: you can do (zipmap (vals m) (keys m))
13:06	luxbock	alright, thanks
13:06	technomancy	or if you're feeling fancy (apply zipmap ((juxt vals keys) m))
13:07	technomancy	(don't actually do that)
13:07	luxbock	hehe
13:07	arrdem	herm... so I started a clojure codebase for my compilers class and turns out I can only get away with a clisp. should I do a straight port and just get used to (setf), or try to add (reader?) macros to get clojure atop clisp?
13:09	technomancy	arrdem: you could help pjstadig with his elisp compiler =)
13:09	technomancy	CL is basically a superset of elisp
13:09	technomancy	arrdem: do they actually require clisp, or will any common lisp implementation do?
13:10	arrdem	technomancy: the prof has a 1k+ line code generator for SPARC in ANSI clisp, so there's a lot of reason to use clisp over clojure XP
13:10	arrdem	but any clisp
13:10	arrdem	'll do
13:11	technomancy	"clisp" is the GNU implementation of common lisp
13:11	arrdem	s/clisp/common lisp/g
13:11	Raynes	CL is the commonly abbreviated form of "Common Lisp".
13:12	technomancy	if you're allowed to use ABCL you could probably use clojure's data structures
13:12	technomancy	but I don't imagine it would be much fun
13:13	dnolen	Morgawr: you're probably better off starting with lein-cljsbuild and going through this http://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs
13:14	Raynes	dnolen: That's also a weird name.
13:14	Raynes	:p
13:14	arrdem	ok well thanks for the hints... pjstadig's compiler looks cool
13:14	Raynes	Clojurescript is, by definition, modern.
13:14	ChongLi	haha
13:14	ChongLi	modern cljs
13:14	Raynes	Calling it 'modern cljs' makes it sound like he is revitalizing a 30 year old language.
13:15	ChongLi	that's the whole point
13:15	ChongLi	I love it
13:15	technomancy	yeah, I think it's intended to be ironic
13:15	Raynes	It's possible he knew the irony.
13:19	dnolen	Raynes: heh, true but at least it starts from first principles
13:19	Raynes	dnolen: Oh, it looks great.
13:21	mcohen3	anyone used something like (.scheduleAtFixedRate (Executors/newScheduledThreadPool 1) to schedule a function? this seems to work fine if i pass something like #(println "hello") but if i use the name of the var of my function, it never seems to fire
13:21	mcohen3	pulling my hair out on this one
13:21	mcohen3	i've tried #(my-function) and just my-function as the arg
13:21	mcohen3	no joy either way
13:22	seancorfield	gfredericks: sorry, got pulled away... the source for 0.2.2 is radically different to 0.2.4-SNAPSHOT so you'll definitely need to work out a patch against master
13:22	seancorfield	I'm open to a discussion back and forth on github first prior to a patch on JIRA (since dnolen and nadamin seem to have set a good precedent there :)
13:23	ChongLi	a link to this modern cljs github should be on a wiki somewhere
13:23	ChongLi	this is great
13:23	llasram	mcohen3: Just passing `my-function` as the Runnable should work fine. I'd guess your function is throwing an exception or otherwise failing to act as expected
13:24	seancorfield	gfredericks: oh, that protocol commit is much simpler than i expected... nice...
13:26	luxbock	how do I turn a numeral character into an integer? i.e. \9 = 9
13:26	progo	(Integer. (str \9))
13:26	llasram	&(Long/parseLong (str \9))
13:26	lazybot	⇒ 9
13:26	AimHere	,(integer/parseInt \9)
13:26	luxbock	ah
13:27	Raynes	&(Long. \9)
13:27	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class java.lang.Long
13:27	Raynes	&(Long. "9")
13:27	lazybot	⇒ 9
13:27	mcohen3	thanks llasram
13:27	Raynes	&(Long/parseLong \9)
13:27	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to java.lang.String
13:27	Raynes	Heh
13:27	augustl	woha, macros! Writing my first useful macro DSL after 6 or so months of Clojure, pretty neat stuff
13:27	TimMc	&(- (int \9) 48)
13:27	lazybot	⇒ 9
13:27	TimMc	^ don't do that
13:28	AimHere	&(- (int \9) (int \0)) might be better style, although not good either
13:28	lazybot	⇒ 9
13:28	Raynes	augustl: Hope it is a macro DSL around a usable functional interface.
13:28	dnolen	ChongLi: done
13:30	augustl	Raynes: hmm, not following
13:30	augustl	Raynes: pretty sure the answer is yes though
13:31	Raynes	augustl: Your code shouldn't be based around macros. The idea is to write your code with plain functions and then, if you want, write some macros to make working with that function-based interface nicer.
13:31	Raynes	I wasn't assuming the former, but I was mentioning it just in case.
13:31	augustl	Raynes: np, I appreciate it :)
13:33	ChongLi	dnolen: which wiki is this?
13:33	dnolen	ChongLi: look at the CLJS github landing page, there's a tutorial link now, and under the main wiki page a tutorials section
13:33	dnolen	and link to modern-cljs from there
13:34	ChongLi	ahh nice
13:34	TimMc	&(- (int \9) 16r30)
13:34	lazybot	⇒ 9
13:35	ChongLi	I think it's pretty amazing how github has basically become the social network for programmers
13:35	ChongLi	is that the right term for it?
13:35	ChongLi	I guess it's more than that
13:36	AimHere	Social? Programmers? What sorcery is this?
13:36	ChongLi	the really cool thing about it is that all the stuff is part of the repo so if github ever turned on the users they'd already have all their data cloned locally
13:37	AimHere	When I were a lad, programmers were made to sit alone in darkened rooms with green screen terminals, to be let out only to gather pizza and caffeinated beverages. Social networking was something they were actively shunned from
13:40	ChongLi	haha
13:50	TimMc	ChongLi: What are you on about, IRC is clearly the social network for programmers.
13:50	TimMc	I can tell because that's what I use.
13:50	Raynes	http://i.imgur.com/2Fer8.gif when I have to go where people are.
13:50	ChongLi	haha
13:53	luxbock	is there a way that I could extend Clojure's >, < and = to compare playing cards that are represented as {:rank :ace, :suit :spade} and some other maps to represent their rankings?
13:54	cbp`	what's the deal with clojure-doc.org
13:54	cbp`	seems down most of the time
13:54	AimHere	I don't think clojure supports operator overloading
13:54	luxbock	alright, so I'll just write my own operators
13:54	dnolen	luxbock: you cannot override >, <. = can be overridden if you're using deftype
13:55	technomancy	luxbock: you can use :refer-clojure :exclude in the ns clause to bring in a different definition of anything in clojure.core
13:55	technomancy	but you can't extend the ones in clojure.core
13:56	ibdknox	wow, I never realized they picked clojure-doc.org
13:56	ibdknox	that was dickish
13:57	technomancy	ibdknox: eh? it's the same people as the people maintaining clojuredocs.org
13:57	technomancy	the long-term plan is to merge the two
13:57	ibdknox	wat
13:57	ibdknox	I though it was a rogue effort originally
13:58	technomancy	yeah, it's just blocked on getting a proper clojure web UI written for the existing clojuredocs API
13:58	ibdknox	in that case it makes even less sense... a subdomain would've been far smarter
13:58	ibdknox	well that's good :)
13:58	ibdknox	confusing for now, but in the end a great outcome
13:58	technomancy	the original maintainer was MIA for a long time; they probably had access to the machine but not the DNS records
13:59	technomancy	possibly still MIA?
13:59	TimMc	next.clojuredocs.org would be nice... if they could get it.
13:59	ibdknox	ah
14:00	amalloy	i have to say, if it's really the same people they've done a terrible job of saying so. i, like ibdknox, thought it was some totally different group of guys rudely using a near-identical domain
14:00	ibdknox	yeah, I remember the threads
14:00	ibdknox	it was definitely a splinter thing in the beginning
14:01	technomancy	the original maintainer disappeared and did a half-hearted handoff to one of the guys behind the new effort IIRC
14:02	technomancy	whole thing was a bit of a mess from the start; closed-source rails app =(
14:02	TimMc	$kill
14:02	lazybot	KILL IT WITH FIRE!
14:03	amalloy	luxbock: if you're interested, one of my first clojure projects was a card-game player, and the card-ranking mechanism is pretty simple at https://github.com/amalloy/ddsolve/blob/master/src/ddsolve/mechanics.clj#L31-L50. there's no real need to make > and < recognize cards
14:05	amalloy	don't take the project as a whole too seriously; i recognize now that it's loaded with bad ideas. but ranking cards is easy enough
14:05	Raynes	amalloy: trollface
14:05	Raynes	amalloy: Whoa, one of your first clojure projects? So you started around the time defrecord was invented?
14:05	amalloy	yes, i started just as 1.2 was coming out
14:05	Raynes	Jesus, how on earth are you better at Clojure than I am if I've been doing it so much longer? Sheer experience to begin with?
14:06	Raynes	I'd guess so.
14:07	ibdknox	Raynes: he's actually an AI designed solely to write clojure code and troll #clojure.
14:07	ibdknox	Raynes: the guy we've met is a paid actor
14:07	Raynes	He must be well paid.
14:07	ChongLi	hmm, would core.logic be good for doing card game rules?
14:07	Raynes	He lives 3 miles from me. Or at least, will in two weeks.
14:07	amalloy	he would have to be, to put up with smelly humans all the time
14:08	amalloy	i mean, i am also a human and do not find humans in general smelly at all
14:08	Raynes	Something fishy is going on here.
14:32	TimMc	How do I tell lein2 to use my credentials.clj.gpg for Clojars?
14:33	TimMc	DEPLOY.md tells me to set :creds :gpg for Clojars, but I don't know where that goes.
14:34	technomancy	TimMc: I think in :repositories in the :user profile; lemme check
14:36	gfredericks	I need to learn to use irssi better; nearly missed seancorfield's replies :/
14:36	TimMc	What URL do I use for Clojars?
14:36	technomancy	TimMc: you can use #"clojars"
14:36	ChongLi	gfredericks: lastlog is your friend
14:37	gfredericks	it tells me it would print 2107 lines
14:37	TimMc	technomancy: So, any repo URL containing "clojars" will get my credentials?
14:37	ChongLi	put a query after it
14:37	gfredericks	ooh
14:37	gfredericks	like my nick
14:38	ChongLi	/lastlog -clear
14:38	TimMc	I suppose as long as the set of repos I try to push to is controlled by me...
14:38	ChongLi	to get rid of it
14:38	technomancy	TimMc: right; I guess that could go wrong if you are tricked into using lein on a project with a hostile :repositories entry
14:38	gfredericks	lastlog is my friend
14:39	TimMc	#"^https://clojars\.org/.*" should be fine.
14:39	technomancy	I thought irissi was for vim users?
14:39	technomancy	TimMc: it's just https://clojars.org/repo/ fwiw
14:40	ChongLi	irssi is just an irc client
14:41	TimMc	technomancy: profiles.clj: {:user {:repositories [["clojars" {:url #"^https://clojars\.org/.*", :creds :gpg}]]}} then?
14:41	gfredericks	technomancy: I was using erc for a while. abedra said it was terrible and I should use irssi so I switched back unquestioningly.
14:41	technomancy	TimMc: sure
14:41	technomancy	what
14:41	craigbro	I'm prety sue itjustuploads your public key
14:41	gfredericks	also amalloy was always complaining about my away thing which I never understood.
14:42	craigbro	and doesn't ship any private keys
14:42	gfredericks	(I never understood the away thing; I usually understand amalloy)
14:42	technomancy	ChongLi: I'm using "vim users" here as a shorthand for "people who don't use Emacs but still like things that run in a terminal" =)
14:42	ChongLi	technomancy: oh
14:42	ChongLi	I use irssi and emacs
14:42	TimMc	technomancy: "https://clojars.org/repo/ and #"^https://clojars\.org/.*" have a type mismatch merging profiles." -- but then it knows to look for GPG credentials anyhow...
14:42	ChongLi	I guess that makes me a weird edge case
14:44	ChongLi	I've been using irssi since long before I ever tried emacs, however
14:44	technomancy	TimMc: oh, my bad. all you need in the user profile is this: :repositories [["clojars" {:creds :gpg}]]
14:44	technomancy	TimMc: the regex goes in credentials.clj.gpg
14:44	TimMc	Is that "clojars" string a regex, or a literal match?
14:44	TimMc	*name match
14:44	technomancy	TimMc: in that case "clojars" is a literal match, yes.
14:45	technomancy	so that profile merge will apply it to the existing clojars repositories entry
14:45	TimMc	Ah, OK.
14:45	technomancy	probably could use some clarification in the docs
14:45	gfredericks	is lastlog an irc feature or irssi?
14:45	ChongLi	is there any way to get a cljs browser repl without it starting a web server right on the spot? I'm already using ring to serve my application
14:45	TimMc	And I guess I need gpg-agent running as well.
14:46	ChongLi	gfredericks: I couldn't tell you, I've been using irssi exclusively for so long
14:46	ChongLi	haha
14:48	ChongLi	irssi has lots of nice scripts, by the way
14:48	ChongLi	http://scripts.irssi.org/
14:58	gfredericks	technomancy: you hate protocols?
14:58	Frozenlock	Oh wow... ibdknox's lecture at clojure conj stops at a huge cliffhanger! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1Eu9vZaDYw
14:59	technomancy	gfredericks: I hate how people use protocols without understanding that they're sacrificing flexibility for performance.
14:59	technomancy	gfredericks: also I love vars
14:59	gfredericks	technomancy: inflexibility versus what approach? multimethods?
15:00	technomancy	gfredericks: versus anything that uses vars
15:00	gfredericks	like robert.hooke?
15:00	pjstadig	technomancy: what you're saying doesn't make sense
15:00	technomancy	no, like defn and defmulti
15:00	pjstadig	protocol functions are put into vars
15:00	gfredericks	is this about :reload and such?
15:01	Raynes	shrug
15:01	Raynes	I've never understood why he doesn't like them.
15:01	Frozenlock	technomancy: If I have java objects that I want to convert to maps (each with its own method), are protocols still bad?
15:01	Raynes	They serve a specific purpose and are faster than multimethos for that purpose.
15:01	pjstadig	protocol functions are functions and they live in vars
15:02	pjstadig	you can map them, comp them, wrap them, partial them
15:02	technomancy	pjstadig: sorry, I was referring to records and the fact that they usually go hand in hand
15:02	technomancy	gfredericks: imagine this: you have two objects which print identically but are not equal
15:02	pjstadig	yeah records are a pain if you recompile them, because clojure generates an interface
15:03	technomancy	also, protocols usually force awkward arity choices upon you
15:03	technomancy	in many cases where they're used people introduce nonsense hierarchies which aren't actually used by the function but are just used for purposes of dispatch
15:03	gfredericks	technomancy: what was the identical-printing-objects thought related to?
15:03	ChongLi	to me protocols seem most useful if you want to implement your own collections with deftype or something
15:04	technomancy	gfredericks: reloading records
15:04	ChongLi	otherwise just use maps and vectors
15:04	pjstadig	protocol functions can have multiple arities
15:04	pjstadig	they can't take primitive hints though, so that's definitely a tradeoff
15:04	pjstadig	and i guess they can't take varargs either
15:04	gfredericks	technomancy: I'm curious if you approve of https://github.com/fredericksgary/java.jdbc/commit/c5ea0ac2b8a0fedc383b985c90c3f69956b1f287
15:05	technomancy	pjstadig: they can have multiple arities, but they force you to put the dispatch object first, which often interferes with what the function is actually about
15:05	pjstadig	yeah sure that's a tradeoff
15:06	pjstadig	i think the best practice is to use protocol functions as an internal implementation method, and have public functions that call them
15:06	pjstadig	so you can use varargs and order the args how you like
15:06	technomancy	gfredericks: in that case you're probably justified given that you're likely to be in perf-critical code
15:07	technomancy	it bugs me when I see them exposed in application-level code
15:07	gfredericks	pjstadig: dnolen's approach of the -foo naming convention for protocol fns seems to have that organization as a side-effect
15:07	gfredericks	technomancy: yeah I haven't seen any compelling uses for protocols/types/records in app code
15:07	danlarkin	phil is right
15:07	danlarkin	protocols are balllllllllllllllllllllllllllls
15:07	technomancy	gfredericks: also you're undeniably intertwingled with all kinds of crazy class hierarchies there anyway, so normal rules of taste don't necessarily apply
15:07	gfredericks	:)
15:07	bbloom	gfredericks: yeah, i do that -foo protocol method and foo no - public method for all my protocols
15:08	pjstadig	danlarkin: butt out
15:08	danlarkin	protocols can sC-u 42 u ck it
15:08	technomancy	danlarkin: oh man you beat me to it
15:08	ChongLi	Frozenlock: multimethods have you specify your own dispatch function
15:08	pjstadig	you just saw me talking to phil
15:08	pjstadig	:-p
15:08	danlarkin	no you butt out pjstadig
15:08	ChongLi	and then define methods on the value which results from that dispatch function
15:08	technomancy	~gentlemen
15:08	pjstadig	(he's looking at my laptop screen)
15:08	technomancy	aw come on clojurebot; ruining my timing
15:09	danlarkin	srsly
15:09	technomancy	clojurebot: gentlemen
15:09	pjstadig	the tubes must be clogged
15:09	hiredman	~ping
15:10	Frozenlock	ChongLi: Protocols do it too, don't they? (extend-protocol class fn...
15:10	dnolen	gfredericks: that protocol fn + fn naming style was actually already in place in CLJS
15:11	ChongLi	Frozenlock: no, protocols dispatch on types
15:12	ChongLi	you could write a multimethod that uses even? as its dispatch function, for example
15:12	ChongLi	and then do different things whether the number is even or odd
15:12	ChongLi	as a silly example
15:14	AimHere	(defrecord EvenNumber [x] ...)
15:14	Frozenlock	ChongLi: Silly example, but straight to the point :)
15:14	gfredericks	dnolen: did you specifically backport core.logic to that style? now that I think about it I'm not even positive core.logic does have that style :/
15:15	TimMc	technomancy: And what is Clojars' releases URL?
15:15	technomancy	TimMc: https://releases.clojars.org/repo/ but you never need creds for that
15:15	TimMc	?
15:15	technomancy	because you deploy to it through the regular repo + promotion
15:15	TimMc	"No credentials found for releases"
15:15	TimMc	It sure sounds like lein is trying to find it.
15:16	technomancy	are you trying to deploy to it?
15:16	TimMc	"lein deploy"
15:16	dnolen	gfredericks: oh yes, the CLJS version of core.logic uses that style. When the CLJ/CLJS story improves I'm planning having one codebase w/ the CLJS protocol style
15:22	bbloom	dnolen: how up-to-date does the cljs core.logic stay?
15:27	ChongLi	are there any plans for some kind of CLJ/CLJS subset for common libraries?
15:32	bbloom	ChongLi: it's something that lots of folks are interested in
15:32	bbloom	it seems like a self-hosting cljs compiler is a more pressing desire that would make that sharing between platforms easier to achieve
15:33	TimMc	technomancy: Ah, it is `lein deploy clojars`.
15:33	ChongLi	that would be pretty cool
15:33	ChongLi	would it run on headless V8 a la node?
15:34	ChongLi	we'd finally be able to write some fast-starting shell scripts in clojure
15:41	dnolen	bbloom: doesn't stay up to date at all
15:41	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, that's what i figured. it's a pita to maintain two libs :-/
15:42	bbloom	i was working on my little dom manipulation library in clojurescript, but the implementaiton wasn't interesting: the interface was the interesting bit... so i used Apache Batik for an SVG DOM and then worked out the interface all in clj instead of cljs... the iteration times were much better
15:42	dnolen	bbloom: yes and they probably actually need to be slightly different for performance reasons as well. PHMs are not as fast in CLJS
15:43	bbloom	dnolen: how big is the perf gap?
15:45	dnolen	bbloom: around 6-8X for zebrao last time I checked. CLJS takes 17ms-20ms, CLJ ~2.5ms
15:45	bbloom	dnolen: any idea the underlying source of the slowness?
15:46	dnolen	bbloom: I can't use PHMS
15:47	dnolen	bbloom: those CLJS numbers are within 1.5X of miniKanren under Racket & Chez Scheme so they are pretty good.
15:47	bbloom	dnolen: heh, yeah that's impressive
15:47	dnolen	bbloom: it is.
15:48	dnolen	bbloom: you'll definitely being able to do serious logic / constraint stuff in the browser.
15:48	dnolen	be able
15:48	ChongLi	PHM?
15:49	bbloom	ChongLi: persistent hash map
15:49	ChongLi	oh
15:49	bbloom	the backing type for most map objects
15:49	ChongLi	they aren't in cljs?
15:50	bbloom	they are, he's just saying they are a tad slower than clj on the jvm
15:50	ChongLi	ah
15:50	bbloom	dnolen: although i'm curious why that's the case...
15:51	dnolen	bbloom: PHM does a lot of allocation, we're also missing native bit population count operator (not sure if that's a bottleneck but it's suspicious)
15:52	dnolen	so I avoided PHMs
15:52	dnolen	it's been a while since I checked JSC or SM, but back when I originally did the PHM benchmarks, SM & JSC were 8-10X slower
15:52	dnolen	V8 is better but still far cry from JVM
15:53	ChongLi	does jvm have popcount?
16:00	dnolen	ChongLi: it does
16:01	ChongLi	man, javascript is the craziest language that people actually use
16:01	ChongLi	implicit coercions on equality operations? wow
16:02	TimMc	ChongLi: Doesn't PHP do that?
16:02	AimHere	Perl too, I thought
16:03	TimMc	&(.bitCount 42)
16:03	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: bitCount for class java.lang.Long
16:03	TimMc	&(Long/bitCount 42)
16:03	lazybot	⇒ 3
16:04	TimMc	3 million Blub programmers can't be wrong!
16:04	ChongLi	haha
16:09	dnolen	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/cljs/core.cljs#L1418
16:09	dnolen	is what bit-count looks like in CLJS
16:12	brehaut	dnolen: minor minor quirk, "Counts the number of bits set in n" [v]
16:12	brehaut	docs say n, args says v
16:13	ticking	am I the only one finding incanter very unclojury and rather common lispy ^^?
16:16	gfredericks	how do I build a contrib project for pushing to clojars?
16:17	gfredericks	the pom.xml has some odd parent entry in it that I assume takes special handling
16:19	dnolen	brehaut: thanks
16:20	dnolen	ticking: it's an old Clojure library.
16:22	ticking	dnolen, possible, I've seen many other old libs though that don't use implicit variable bindings and macros everywhere ^^
16:24	technomancy	ticking: yeah, but those libs got it right by luck =)
16:24	Sgeo	Are recruiters evil?
16:25	bhenry1	hello
16:25	technomancy	Sgeo: most are. possibly not all.
16:26	Sgeo	How do I be careful?
16:26	Sgeo	Because I've been talking to one, I think
16:26	gfredericks	try to keep them on the phone
16:26	gfredericks	ask them where the bomb is
16:26	gfredericks	and how to disarm it
16:26	gfredericks	stay calm
16:26	Sgeo	Someone suggested that the only reason he asked me to make changes to my resume rather than changing it directly was because I used LaTeX
16:28	bhenry	i just did a `git pull` on my emacs.d from emacs-live and there is no more clojure-jack-in. can someone point me at the documentation of changes?
16:28	Sgeo	Probably doesn't help that I didn't give an answer when he asked how much I was looking for
16:28	ticking	technomancy hrhr
16:28	Sgeo	Money... stuff... is beyond me
16:29	craigbro	nrepl-jack-in?
16:30	TimMc	Sgeo: I pretty much just hang up on recruiters at this point. THere might be some nice ones, but I'm done wasting time on the jerks.
16:30	Sgeo	What, exactly, do the jerks do that are evil
16:30	Sgeo	Or jerk-y?
16:31	technomancy	Sgeo: most recruiters cast a wide net because taking the time to actually making sure that a candidate is a good fit for a position does not scale
16:31	dnolen	ticking: yeah I'm with technomancy. Early Clojure libs went wild with dynamic binding & macros
16:32	bhenry	craigbro: thanks!
16:32	pjstadig	technomancy: the other really annoying thing with protocols is that they don't play nicely with M-.
16:32	technomancy	pjstadig: hush, you're only encouraging him
16:33	technomancy	oh wait
16:33	Raynes	alex_baranosky: Is there a way to find out which fact is taking a bazillion years (infinite looping) when running midje tests?
16:35	Raynes	Oh wow, what luck. It happened to be the first one I commented out.
16:35	Raynes	That's dadgum magical.
16:36	craigbro	many, binary search is fast!
16:36	craigbro	s/many/man
16:36	gfredericks	Raynes: actually you were just 1 over the max-tests limit
16:37	augustl	looking for suggestions on how to better implement "doit" https://www.refheap.com/paste/8875
16:38	clerksy	Ok, I am the only one who finds paredit annoying as can be?
16:38	TimMc	Sgeo: They call me at work. On my work phone.
16:38	AimHere	You're not, clerksy
16:38	technomancy	clojurebot: paredit?
16:38	clojurebot	paredit tutorial is http://p.hagelb.org/paredit-outline
16:38	clerksy	I am just picking this up, but man if forces parens in wrong spots and I still cant find how to remove them
16:38	augustl	clerksy: I love it! If you're the type of person that isn't a good fit for paredit, you should change your personality :)
16:38	TimMc	How antisocial is that?
16:38	gfredericks	augustl: wow man what the heck is that doing
16:38	Frozenlock	clerksy: No, but apparently it's the best thing since butter, so don't say it... :P
16:39	Sgeo	TimMc, o.O
16:39	augustl	gfredericks: mapping the second item in a list
16:39	clerksy	technomancy: Thanks, I will check this out.
16:39	TimMc	Also they usually don't take the time to find out anything about me.
16:39	augustl	gfredericks: it's for some sexp rewrites for a macro..
16:39	AimHere	I occasionally go into paredit mode and think 'Okay, I can see the point of this' and then I spend 2 minutes trying to delete a loose pair of parens and I turn it off again for 6 months
16:39	technomancy	clerksy: actually I was trying to remember if I had already taught clojurebot a certain factoid
16:39	gfredericks	augustl: destructuring would help
16:39	technomancy	clojurebot: paredit \|is\| not for everyone, but what you need to understand is how to become the kind of person that paredit is for.
16:39	clojurebot	In Ordnung
16:39	technomancy	there we go
16:39	TimMc	haha
16:40	augustl	exactly :)
16:40	Raynes	clerksy: You get used to it. It's a lot more useful than it is annoying.
16:40	TimMc	technomancy: Unfortunately, clojurebot has misinterpreted that. You included an " is " later in the factoid.
16:40	gfredericks	,((fn doit [f xs] (map (fn [[a b & cs]] (list* a (f b) cs)) xs)) '((123 "foo" 456) (123 "bar" 456)))
16:40	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox$eval29$doit>
16:40	augustl	gfredericks: ah
16:40	technomancy	TimMc: I thought \|is\| forced it to be at the right place?
16:41	clerksy	Raynes: I hope so.
16:41	gfredericks	,((fn doit [f xs] (map (fn [[a b & cs]] (list* a (f b) cs)) xs) '((123 "foo" 456) (123 "bar" 456)))
16:41	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
16:41	TimMc	technomancy: That's only for forgetting, I think.
16:41	gfredericks	,((fn doit [f xs] (map (fn [[a b & cs]] (list* a (f b) cs)) xs) '((123 "foo" 456) (123 "bar" 456))))
16:41	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: sandbox$eval87$doit>
16:41	Raynes	clerksy: When you find yourself in a cave and it's dark and you're likely to be eaten by a grue, you'll be happy you can wrap yourself in protective parens with a single keystroke.
16:41	technomancy	TimMc: curses
16:41	TimMc	several, yes
16:41	gfredericks	augustl: I give up; you can debug it :)
16:41	technomancy	clojurebot: paredit \|is\| not for everyone, but what you need to understand ís how to become the kind of person that paredit ís for.
16:41	clojurebot	Alles klar
16:41	technomancy	TimMc: tada!
16:42	augustl	gfredericks: didn't know about list*, nice
16:43	augustl	clerksy: it's probably annoying to not be able to do anything you want, but that's the power of it
16:43	TimMc	technomancy: ...nice.
16:43	TimMc	Unfortunately, there's no way to kill the old one.
16:43	augustl	gfredericks: much better, thanks :)
16:43	technomancy	blargh
16:44	gfredericks	augustl: for super funs use (partial map ...)
16:44	TimMc	augustl: Needs more destructuring.
16:44	gfredericks	i.e., (def doit (partial map ...))
16:44	technomancy	TimMc: I could break into hiredman's place of residence, but I think he runs it off-site
16:45	augustl	ended up with this: (map (fn [[x1 x2 & xs]] (list* x1 (str "prefix-" x2) xs)) xs)
16:45	hiredman	I should write a bnf for clojurebot factoids and redo the parser
16:47	TimMc	&(let [do2 (fn [f] (fn [[a b & c]] (list* a (f b) c)))] (map (do2 #(str "prefix-" %)) '((123 "foo" 456) (123 "bar" 456))))
16:47	lazybot	⇒ ((123 "prefix-foo" 456) (123 "prefix-bar" 456))
16:47	augustl	now write a do-n :)
16:53	pjstadig	hiredman: haha you and bnf
16:55	ticking	dnolen, it's really interesting to see how the style changed, thanks for the insight :D
17:03	maio	how can I reduce list so that I get every Nth element of it?
17:04	AimHere	.(map first (partition-all 5 (range 50)))
17:04	AimHere	&(map first (partition-all 5 (range 50)))
17:04	lazybot	⇒ (0 5 10 15 20 25 30 35 40 45)
17:04	maio	nice, thanks :)
17:07	augustl	mmm, decomplecting
17:08	Frozenlock	Very nice! It's a shame that I always forget about partition.
17:09	TimMc	bnf bnf bnf bnf wubwubwub
17:10	tomoj	I guess the expectation with ring's session middleware is that you return a response with {:session (update-session (:session req))} ?
17:11	tomoj	i.e. "don't change the session at all" is (fn [app] (fn [req] (assoc (app req) :session (:session req))))
17:11	tomoj	which still calls write-session
17:21	augustl	tomoj: I've only used the cookie store
17:21	augustl	works well enough for me :)
17:22	technomancy	tomoj: I think if you return a map without a session key it shouldn't change it?
17:22	technomancy	you have to explicitly say :session nil to clear it IIRC
17:38	Frozenlock	Damnit github, stop messing my readme.org files!
17:39	Raynes	Damnit Frozenlock, stop using org-mode for readmes.
17:39	technomancy	github's org implementation is a lost cause
17:40	brehaut	markdown all the things :(
17:43	Frozenlock	brehaut: I'd rather write a txt
17:43	Frozenlock	Or write an org and then export to txt. Mouhahaha!
17:43	Raynes	Frozenlock: Why not write org and export to markdown?
17:43	Raynes	;)
17:44	Frozenlock	Didn't know it could... must be the single file format I've never exported an org file to. o_O
17:45	Raynes	Frozenlock: Dunno if it can. Pandoc can do pretty much anything these days. I one exported kleenex to handkerchief.
17:46	bbloom	Raynes: does pandoc produce decent results?
17:47	Raynes	bbloom: I was using it to write my book at one point.
17:47	bbloom	Raynes: i meant for conversions
17:47	Raynes	bbloom: I was using it to convert markdown to latex. Do the math.
17:47	bbloom	ah ok
17:47	Raynes	:p
17:48	Frozenlock	Should I refer to hash-maps as maps, or smaps?
17:48	Raynes	Ginger smaps.
17:48	bbloom	Frozenlock: not all maps are hash maps
17:49	Frozenlock	(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
17:49	weavejester	Does anyone know of a safe Clojure pr-str implementation?
17:49	bbloom	weavejester: what do you mean by "safe" ?
17:50	weavejester	One where (= x (read-string (pr-str x))) is always true
17:50	bbloom	can't exist really
17:50	technomancy	sure it can
17:50	weavejester	Er, let me clarify that - always true or throws an exception.
17:50	bbloom	well it certainly DOESN'T
17:51	bbloom	weavejester: ok, well that's a different thing :-)
17:51	bbloom	you can implement that trivially as an assertion type thing
17:51	technomancy	weavejester: so I forgot about this from our discussion earlier, but my first attempted patch for Clojure was to fix this: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-17
17:51	weavejester	Unfortunately I ran into a problem with records
17:52	bbloom	(defn pr-str-safe [x] (let [s (pr-str x) y (read-str s)] (assert (= x y)) s)))
17:52	weavejester	technomancy: Interesting
17:52	weavejester	bbloom: Doesn't work with records
17:52	bbloom	weavejester: it throws an exception is they aren't equal, which is one of your requirements
17:53	technomancy	weavejester: reader syntax for arbitrarily-named keywords/symbols is definitely the way to go in the long-term
17:53	weavejester	(let [x #foo {:a 1}] (= x (read-string (pr-str x))))
17:53	weavejester	That is always false
17:53	bbloom	is that a tagged literal or a record?
17:53	weavejester	A record isn't like a map, apparently. Printing and then reading it results in a value that is not equal to the original
17:53	weavejester	A record
17:53	Raynes	bbloom: I hereby challenge you to a game of texas hold 'em.
17:54	bbloom	Raynes: um, ok... but why?
17:54	weavejester	I also tried (= (pr-str x) (pr-str (read-string (pr-str x))))
17:54	Raynes	Because poker is fun.
17:54	weavejester	But I realized that wouldn't work with maps, due to key ordering
17:55	bbloom	Raynes: heh, indeed, but i don't play online - in person only
17:55	dpwright	Hello, I'm having a little trouble compiling/serving a LESS css file using Dieter with Compojure/Ring -- I'm not sure if this is the right room to ask about this sort of thing or if there's somewhere more specific, but I thought I'd try here first
17:55	bbloom	Raynes: and only with cash :-)
17:55	Raynes	I really would hate to take your paycheck from you.
17:55	technomancy	lazybot plugin
17:55	bbloom	i don't have a paycheck, so it wouldn't be an issue :-P
17:55	bbloom	besides, i wouldn't want to steal your milk money
17:56	Raynes	Oooh burn.
17:56	bbloom	although i'm not really sure why we're trash talking about poker all of a sudden, lol
17:56	brehaut	dpwright: just ask your question. if someone can help, they will
17:56	dpwright	The long and short of it is I'm getting a null pointer exception whenever I try to access a file which exists in the folder I've specified as dieter's assets folder
17:57	weavejester	Maybe I should write an edn-printer
17:57	dpwright	You can see the stacktrace if you go to wedding.test.dpwright.com and click the "link" link... "sample.less" is a file in the resources/assets/css folder
17:58	dpwright	that link was generated with dieter's link-to-asset function
17:58	dpwright	my suspicion is that I'm hooking the dieter middleware in wrong, or something
17:58	bbloom	weavejester: if you want to extend fipp, i'd be happy to help
17:58	weavejester	fipp?
17:58	bbloom	weavejester: github.com/brandonbloom/fipp
17:59	weavejester	bbloom: Ahh, well I'm not really after a pretty-printer
17:59	weavejester	Just a way of storing Clojure data structures
17:59	bbloom	but it's almost as fast as a normal printer :-) and my plan is to be able to compile a non pretty printer statically
18:01	technomancy	all I want from a pretty-printer is the ability to reformat my code like this: http://technomancy.us/50
18:01	weavejester	bbloom: Hm… it seems like they'd be different goals...
18:02	bbloom	technomancy: totally doable :-P
18:02	bbloom	weavejester: how so?
18:02	technomancy	bbloom: I assumed so; just thought I'd check to make sure
18:04	weavejester	bbloom: Well, pretty printing is about making things easier for a human to read. An EDN writer would be focused on adhering safely to a spec that, as far as I can tell, in some cases is subtly different from Clojure.
18:04	weavejester	Or rather, stricter than Clojure
18:05	bbloom	weavejester: so the \i part of "fipp" is for being idiomatically data driven. i'd like to evolve towards a model where you can generate various types of output from common input documents. ie a pretty formatted representation, or one with color coding, or an html representation, or compile a non-pretty fast printing version, etc
18:06	bbloom	weavejester: it's not there yet, and i need to put some thought into the details of that document format (it will likely evolve to be somewhat DOM-like in the sense that each node has a tag, some attributes, and some children) and how to process it
18:06	weavejester	Hmm, it feels a little complex...
18:06	TimMc	weavejester: (fn [& _] (throw (RuntimeException.))) is a safe implementation. :-P
18:07	weavejester	TimMc: :P
18:07	clojurebot	:negative/num-1 + :positive/num-1 = :zero/zero
18:07	bbloom	weavejester: it's more complex than a single hand coded print routine, but as you've discovered, that doesn't scale
18:07	weavejester	bbloom: Doesn't scale?
18:07	weavejester	I'm dealing with heavily io-bound data. Scaling isn't the problem for me :)
18:08	bbloom	weavejester: i mean scale in the design sense
18:08	bbloom	in order to get print/read to work correclty, it requires people write correctly bijective functions
18:08	weavejester	The problem is storing a data structure that can be always be read.
18:08	bbloom	you can generate those functions from a grammar!
18:08	weavejester	Ye-eeesss…
18:08	bbloom	fipp is only interested in the print side of the equation for now, but the same ideas can be applied: data all the things
18:09	weavejester	I was kinda looking for a solution I could implement in… say… an hour :)
18:09	bbloom	yeah, not gonna happen even if you go the naive route of hand coded functions lol
18:09	kovas	lol
18:10	weavejester	bbloom: Well… I think it might be possible
18:10	weavejester	I mean, pr-str works, it just doesn't validate.
18:10	weavejester	So I just need to ensure that a data-structure adheres to the rules of EDN
18:10	bbloom	use that asserting version i wrote above ^^ use that during development
18:10	weavejester	bbloom: The asserting function doesn't work with records, and I need to store records.
18:11	bbloom	i dont understand what the issue is with records
18:11	weavejester	Okay, try this...
18:12	bbloom	,clojure.reflect.Field
18:12	clojurebot	clojure.reflect.Field
18:12	bbloom	,(pr-str (clojure.reflect.Field. 1 2 3 4))
18:12	clojurebot	"#clojure.reflect.Field{:name 1, :type 2, :declaring-class 3, :flags 4}"
18:12	bbloom	,(read-string (pr-str (clojure.reflect.Field. 1 2 3 4)))
18:12	clojurebot	#clojure.reflect.Field{:name 1, :type 2, :declaring-class 3, :flags 4}
18:12	bbloom	seems to work to me...
18:13	bbloom	,(let [obj (clojure.reflect.Field. 1 2 3 4)] (= (read-string (pr-str obj)) obj))
18:13	clojurebot	true
18:13	bbloom	works fine
18:13	weavejester	Uh… hm… it does for me now as well...
18:13	weavejester	Let me retry with the data from before.
18:14	weavejester	Ahah
18:14	weavejester	It's because I used map->record
18:14	dpwright	This is how I'm passing the middleware to the handler I've specified using the lein-ring plugin as my ring handler: https://gist.github.com/4599677
18:15	weavejester	Or… huh, map->record works under some circumstances.
18:15	weavejester	And not under others
18:15	dpwright	(I'm just getting started with ring and compojure and figuring how it all fits together, so I'm not sure this is correct)
18:15	weavejester	Maybe if it's in a different namespace...
18:16	dpwright	trying to access any file which doesn't share the first portion of its filename (before the extension) with a file in the assets directory results in a 404, but anything which does (for example, I have sample.less in assets; I could try sample.foo, sample.blah, sample.anythingelse), results in this null pointer exception
18:17	bbloom	,(clojure.reflect.Field. 1 2 3 4)
18:17	clojurebot	#clojure.reflect.Field{:name 1, :type 2, :declaring-class 3, :flags 4}
18:17	bbloom	,(= (clojure.reflect.Field. 1 2 3 4) {:name 1 :type 2 :declaring-class 3 :flags 4})
18:17	clojurebot	false
18:17	bbloom	,(= {:name 1 :type 2 :declaring-class 3 :flags 4} (clojure.reflect.Field. 1 2 3 4))
18:17	clojurebot	false
18:17	bbloom	weavejester: not sure what issue you're having
18:17	TimMc	,(doc map->record)
18:17	clojurebot	No entiendo
18:18	weavejester	bbloom: I'm finding that under some circumstances, (= x (read-string (pr-str x))) returns false for some records I created.
18:18	bbloom	weavejester: are you sure you don't have old instances?
18:18	weavejester	TimMc: By map->record I mean map->{record name}
18:18	bbloom	if you re-evaluate the defrecord, then the types are different for new instances
18:19	weavejester	bbloom: It's a new REPL, and the problem occurs when running in the main class, too.
18:19	weavejester	bbloom: Hang on, I'm trying to work out how to minimally reproduce it.
18:19	bbloom	weavejester: try to isolate it in a new project
18:19	weavejester	That's what I'm doing :)
18:19	brehaut	dpwright: i cant answer you dieter question, but re:ring/compojure, do you understand that compojure basically just creates ring functions, and that ring functions just map a request to a response?
18:22	TimMc	weavejester: "sometimes" -- some objects in the same REPL, or some REPL sessions?
18:22	dpwright	brehaut: I understand in so much as I know that's what compojure's doing, but having never written ring functions without compojure or used ring without the lein-ring plugin I couldn't really claim to understand what the ring functions compojure outputs would actually look like/represent
18:23	gfredericks	probability a random ping-pong game contains the score 7-11: 1989/8192
18:23	weavejester	TimMc: I'm starting a new REPL each time to test it.
18:23	brehaut	dpwright: have a look at http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/ring_introduction (sorry for tooting my own trumpet)
18:24	weavejester	Odd...
18:24	brehaut	dpwright: you particluarly want the preamp, 'the basics…' and 'compojure' sections.
18:24	weavejester	I get true when running a REPL in the project that defines the record
18:24	brehaut	s/preamp/preamble/
18:24	weavejester	And false in another project that depends on the record
18:25	weavejester	The other project has a :main namespace though, so maybe that's it...
18:26	weavejester	Hm, no. Even if both environments start off as blank "user" namespaces
18:26	dpwright	brehaut: Thanks! I think I've come across this page before, back when I was trying out noir, and I skipped it at the time because noir hides a lot of that away
18:26	weavejester	And I run the same code
18:26	dpwright	I'll read it through properly now
18:26	weavejester	The project repo REPL works, the dependent project REPL doesn't...
18:27	weavejester	Curious.
18:27	weavejester	I'm using a checkouts dir, so I know the code is identical.
18:28	hiredman	weavejester: checkouts will make it be less likely to work
18:28	weavejester	hiredman: Hm, why?
18:29	hiredman	weavejester: I imagine what you are seeing is records with the same "name" that are backed by different jvm classes with the same name
18:30	weavejester	hiredman: Yes, that's my thought, but I don't know why that would be the case.
18:30	weavejester	Okay, here's what I'm doing:
18:30	hiredman	which could happen if you aot compile (which generates classes for records) then turn around and eval a .clj
18:30	weavejester	(require 'foo.core)
18:30	hiredman	checkouts just give .clj src, and I ampretty sure the jar is still on the classpath too
18:30	weavejester	(def f (foo.core/map->Foo {:id 1}))
18:31	weavejester	(= f (read-string (pr-str f)))
18:31	TimMc	weavejester: Get the classes of the input object and the read-back object and compare them.
18:31	weavejester	In project "foo", this returns true
18:31	weavejester	In project "bar", which has a dependency on "foo", this returns false,
18:31	hiredman	weavejester: I imagine if you reload the srouce for foo.core comparison will come out fine
18:31	hiredman	have you cleared out classes recently?
18:32	weavejester	These are from blank REPLs.
18:32	TimMc	lein clean
18:32	weavejester	Ohhh
18:32	weavejester	Good idea!
18:32	TimMc	There's a classes dir, possibly in ./target
18:33	weavejester	Highly possible. Project "foo" is just a library. Project "bar" has a -main gen-class.
18:34	hiredman	weavejester: yeah, so you could have some stale transitively compiled code
18:34	weavejester	Ah, yes, that works now that I've lein-cleaned. Let's see if it works with a :main namespace now as well
18:35	weavejester	Yep, it does.
18:36	weavejester	Ah geez, I should have guessed it was an unclean targets dir with an obsolete record class.
18:36	weavejester	hiredman: Thanks a lot!
18:36	TimMc	(-> (map->Foo {:a 1}) class (.getResource "/clojure/lang/RT.class"))
18:37	hiredman	TimMc: no /
18:37	TimMc	^ Something like that, but with Foo's class in the path string and run once on each object might have told you what you needed to know.
18:37	weavejester	Resources never begin with a /
18:37	TimMc	In this case they do.
18:37	weavejester	Really? Huh...
18:37	TimMc	I mean, empirically.
18:38	hiredman	TimMc: most likely a quirk of a particular classloader
18:38	TimMc	Perhaps.
18:38	weavejester	So anyway, this bug is kinda odd, because it means the map->Foo function was returning a different class to the one read-string was constructing.
18:39	weavejester	I guess a quirk of the classloaders...
18:39	TimMc	clojurebot is requiring no slash; my REPL is requiring the presence of one.
18:39	weavejester	I'm not sure why it would be different. Maybe something specific to nREPL...
18:39	weavejester	I thought this error occurred outside of nREPL, but maybe I imagined that.
18:43	hiredman	weavejester: classloading can get weird, it is mutating state after all
19:02	jballanc	I may be smoking something...but is there a "standardized" way of providing a default implementation for a protocol method?
19:02	bbloom	jballanc: extend to java.lang.Object ?
19:02	jballanc	I vaguely recall a hack to define defaults using a macro and metadata
19:02	jballanc	bbloom: yeah...that's the sort of hack I'd kinda like to avoid
19:02	bbloom	jballanc: how is that a hack?
19:03	bbloom	isn't that exactly what you want?
19:03	bbloom	or rather: how is that different than what you want?
19:03	jballanc	I just want any type that implements the protocol to get the method
19:03	jballanc	not every object
19:04	bbloom	Oh, ok, sorry, my brain is elsewhere :-P
19:04	hiredman	sounds like it should be a function
19:04	hiredman	not a protocol function
19:04	Raynes	That's just a function, jballanc.
19:04	jballanc	well, that's what I'm doing now
19:04	Raynes	You don't need a protocol for that.
19:04	bbloom	yeah what they said :-)
19:04	jballanc	well, no I mean I have a protocol with 3 functions
19:04	jballanc	two are different for each type
19:04	jballanc	but the third is shared
19:05	bbloom	you can use extend
19:05	bbloom	(def common-bits {:the-fn (fn [this x y z] ...)})
19:05	hiredman	so your protocol is not granular enough
19:05	jballanc	hiredman: yeah...this is probably YAGNI
19:05	bbloom	(doseq [t [TypeA TypeB]] (extend t common-bits))
19:05	hiredman	the third shared bit should be a function written in terms of the protocol
19:06	jballanc	good point
19:06	bbloom	but in the common case, hiredman is right
19:06	jballanc	btw...has defn- fallen out of favor?
19:07	jballanc	I thought I had read that a while back
19:07	Raynes	I don't use it.
19:07	Raynes	I know a few other people who don't care for it.
19:07	technomancy	I like it
19:07	Raynes	It doesn't matter, but I prefer it because there is unlikely to be any more convenience macros for creating private vars in clojure.core.
19:08	hiredman	private is silly
19:08	bbloom	i use it, but only b/c there isn't a good mechanism for building a public API namespace from the components of several implementation namespaces
19:08	Raynes	And if they aren't going to cover everything, they shouldn't cover anything.
19:08	bbloom	oddly, i miss that __ALL__ hackery from python
19:08	Raynes	^:private is a lot more descriptive than defn-
19:09	technomancy	anything that makes it more likely for authors to be careful about implementation details is OK in my book
19:09	jballanc	yeah, in this case I want to write a very generically-named convenience like "exists?"
19:09	jballanc	but I worry about it leaking
19:09	pjstadig	you could letfn like (letfn [(foo [a] (* a2))] (defn frobnicate [b] (foo b)))
19:10	bbloom	kovas: speaking of mathematica, do you know of any algebra systems in clojure? i know that there is that mathematica bridge and whatnot, but i'm just curious to see how other people have approached implementing a simple algebra system in clojure. i think i want a really really simple one for basic linear expressions and keyword getters
19:10	pjstadig	closures are a nice classic way to encapsulate
19:10	tomoj	"finger trees in clojurescript" sweet! "Concrete measure type should be bound to these vars with with-measure macro" aww
19:10	kovas	bbloom: i saw something on github.. lemme see if i can find it
19:11	hiredman	pjstadig: but encapsulation is silly
19:12	bbloom	kovas: i was considering putting together a really simple one suited to my particular needs. my purposes are basically analogous to angular's expressions & filters, but with some differences
19:12	hiredman	from a consumer of libraries standpoint, why would you limit the amount of functionality exposed?
19:12	kovas	bbloom: theres https://github.com/bmillare/dj.math , but who knows what it does
19:12	kovas	bbloom: i would do my own if i was you
19:12	bbloom	kovas: that's the plan, but was just curious
19:13	kovas	bbloom: everyone seems to have their own idiosyncratic take in this space
19:13	bbloom	which space are you referring to? symbolic systems? or binding expressions?
19:13	pjstadig	hiredman: no it's not. it seems silly to say it's silly
19:13	technomancy	pjstadig: he's just messing with you
19:13	kovas	symbolic systems
19:13	bbloom	kovas: yup
19:14	kovas	and algebra
19:14	kovas	which may or may not have some reasonable symbolic system underneath it
19:14	kovas	i did a pretty fun google scholar search last night
19:14	hiredman	pjstadig: it is, as a consumer of libraries, when I want to use function X, but function X is private, or let bound or whatever, it is annoying
19:14	kovas	search term: prolog compiler term rewriting
19:14	bbloom	yeah, i just need a basic algebraic system: pretty much simple arithmetic, get-in, assoc-in, etc
19:15	technomancy	hiredman: wait are you joking or not?
19:15	bbloom	kovas: needs to be pluggable tho, b/c i'm gonna want like number -> currency formatted string, and then parsing back the other way
19:15	hiredman	encapsulation leads to attempts to be overly generic, while limiting the ability to actually reuse the code, by hindering people trying to customize it to their needs
19:15	hiredman	technomancy: I am not
19:16	hiredman	clojure's private is slightly less hideous then java's
19:16	bbloom	kovas: but i don't need systems of equations or anything, just single output in both directions... i do.. however.. need compilation :-)
19:16	technomancy	hiredman: as a consumer of libraries it's very annoying for me to bring in a function and then to have it change in a future version because it turned out to be an implementation detail
19:16	hiredman	technomancy: shrug if you don't want api churn stop updating deps
19:16	kovas	bbloom: yeah i hear you on that
19:16	technomancy	hiredman: not always an option
19:17	technomancy	I'm glad I have the ability to rely on implementation details when I deem the time is right, but doing it by default is just plain crazy
19:17	kovas	bbloom: the literature is fun but a long way from being immediately useful
19:17	kovas	bbloom: have you looked at "lenses" ?
19:17	bbloom	kovas: yes, but lenses are not what i want at all
19:17	pjstadig	hiredman: as a consumer of my library you'll use the function i let you use shrug
19:18	bbloom	kovas: lenses are concatenative and compositional in a way that i simply don't need. they introduce a bunch of ambiguity and complexity that i don't care about
19:18	kovas	bbloom: don't you just want rules for (currency (number x)) and (number (currency y)) ?
19:18	kovas	yes i agree
19:19	bbloom	kovas: little more complex than that, b/c it might be: (format-number the-number the-format-string)
19:19	kovas	though i feel they could be made simpler, if you remove some of their requirements
19:19	bbloom	kovas: in that case, i need to be able to say "well, the-format-string is a modifier, not an input"
19:19	bbloom	or just say "the format string isn't two-way bindable"
19:19	kovas	not an input because its not gonna change?
19:19	kovas	i see
19:19	bbloom	you need some kind of type system
19:19	bbloom	a very simple one will do
19:20	kovas	most types can be emulated with another layer of symbolic wrapping
19:20	bbloom	yes
19:21	bbloom	and i don't mind if it's a little trickier or more work to implement a new function in this world
19:21	bbloom	b/c the included set should be sufficient for most needs
19:21	kovas	things get more complicated before they get simpler
19:21	kovas	just like term rewriting :)
19:22	bbloom	and even if you need a custom expression/filter/converter/whatever, you only need a few of them & they are very specific to your app, so forcing people to write two annotated functions for convert & convertBack is fine
19:23	jballanc	hiredman: but then what about convenience functions? in my case, I want to do a head request on a url to check for existence
19:23	kovas	I'm having flashbacks just thinking about the topic
19:23	bbloom	kovas: ha
19:23	hiredman	jballanc: and?
19:23	kovas	the number of things to worry about seems large
19:24	kovas	but if your over the hump in terms of implementation thats promising
19:24	jballanc	hiredman: well, that doesn't seem like a method that anyone would care to use outside of my library
19:24	jballanc	but, more importantly in my mind, what do I call it?
19:24	bbloom	kovas: i'm over the hump on model -> view -> platform
19:24	bbloom	kovas: still need to work out the finer points of model <- view <- platform
19:24	hiredman	jballanc: yeah, but on the flipside, what is the advantage to hiding it?
19:24	kovas	bbloom: so is the UI just one big data structure, or are there references between a set of structures?
19:25	jballanc	hiredman: if everyone only used "require", none ;-)
19:25	bbloom	kovas: there are exactly 2 atoms: model & view
19:25	jballanc	well...require without a :refer :all
19:25	jballanc	but I've been burned by trivial naming conflicts too many times in the past...
19:25	kovas	ok
19:25	hiredman	jballanc: people have to explicitly bring in names from your namespaces, you should not worry about polluting theirs
19:26	kovas	well that makes things simpler
19:26	bbloom	kovas: yup :-)
19:26	kovas	bbloom: is view totally derived from model, or does it have its own state as well?
19:27	jballanc	hiredman: yeah, I guess I can see that p.o.v. too...which is why I asked
19:27	bbloom	kovas: (platform/start-app initial-model unexpanded-view)
19:28	pjstadig	you can't design a library expecting that people could be depending upon any and every function you define
19:28	pjstadig	that just makes for software too tightly coupled
19:28	bbloom	kovas: where those two values are NOT atoms
19:28	pjstadig	interfaces and implementations are a good thing, and it is good that they are separated
19:30	kovas	bbloom: can you save the current state of the UI as a value?
19:30	bbloom	kovas: you bet your ass you can :-)
19:30	kovas	tight
19:30	kovas	yeah that was basically my goal for the widgets in session
19:30	bbloom	kovas: but the view is platform dependent
19:30	kovas	make them interactively, come back to them, share them, extract and put inside in larger apps
19:31	bbloom	kovas: you can also save the state of the model as a value and that's portable between views (assuming your views are well formed)
19:31	arrdem	can anyone point me to a good CL package demo? #lisp is pretty dead ATM.
19:31	kovas	ok
19:32	kovas	i don't understand what it means to be well formed
19:32	kovas	just that they assume a certain structure in the model?
19:32	bbloom	kovas: yeah, basically they act on a model of the same schema
19:33	bbloom	the schemas are not-reified as of yet
19:33	kovas	have you watched stu's "orm is a problem of our own making" talk?
19:33	bbloom	no, but i also hate ORMs :-P
19:33	bbloom	i'll add it to the viewing queue
19:33	kovas	it made me reconsider if its a great idea to have the model be one big tree
19:34	kovas	theres just a moment in there
19:34	kovas	where he rants against document databases
19:34	kovas	the claim being, documents are a bad way to store data because of the schema lockin
19:34	bbloom	i think the model as one big tree is a bad way to store data, but it's not a bad way to operate on it
19:34	kovas	but great as the output of query
19:34	kovas	yeah
19:34	bbloom	i envision that most apps would have a separate view model
19:35	bbloom	and i consider it a separate problem to synchronize the model and view model
19:35	kovas	right
19:35	bbloom	for now, i'm only interested in the view model
19:35	brehaut	kovas: thats not quite his argument; he says its stupid for anything that isnt documents
19:35	kovas	fiar
19:35	kovas	fair
19:35	kovas	brehaut: right :)
19:35	bbloom	kovas: do you have a link to that talk
19:35	bbloom	?
19:36	kovas	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Impedance-Mismatch
19:36	kovas	pretty good talk
19:37	bbloom	kovas: enqueued
19:37	kovas	my dream right now is to have a direct translation from datomic to UI and back
19:37	kovas	even if the UI is pretty simple and dumb
19:38	kovas	and I'm wondering if you can attach view or view-model info to the attributes
19:38	kovas	so in the db you would have something like [page-entity :left-column left-column-content-entity]
19:39	kovas	and :left-column would have some appropriate view function attached to it which is applied to the content to give you the realized UI
19:39	bbloom	kovas: i view all of that as higher level stuff that i don't need to think about yet :-)
19:39	kovas	yeah
19:40	kovas	for sure
19:40	kovas	or, lower level in a sense
19:40	bbloom	everything i'm building is designed to be a target for both humans and computers
19:41	ohpauleez	Out of curiosity, are there any other Clojure folks who have a Leap Motion dev unit?
19:41	bbloom	initially, a design tool, but eventually, higher order code as well
19:41	kovas	right
19:41	kovas	is this personal project, or something for salesforce?
19:41	bbloom	kovas: i quit salesforce after only a few months
19:41	kovas	lol
19:42	kovas	if only i could sell a startup and spend the rest of my days solving big problems
19:42	bbloom	kovas: in short: making applications is too damn hard and i think i'm the crazy bastard to fix it. so i'm gonna do that & i have a year or two of runway to prove that
19:42	kovas	thats awesome
19:43	kovas	it sure is too damn hard
19:43	kovas	just don't fall into the trap of premature optimization on "lets make money off this" :)
19:44	bbloom	kovas: i had a 1year vest that i didn't wait out. this is savings from the first time i started a company ... i didn't use them that time since i got funded :-P
19:44	kovas	badass
19:45	bbloom	i'm always happiest when i'm poor :-P haha
19:45	bbloom	although the food isn't as good....
19:45	kovas	lol. if you need some help getting $$ of your hands, you know where to send the check
19:45	kovas	off
19:46	kovas	where are you moving to in nyc?
19:47	bbloom	kovas: no idea yet
19:47	bbloom	apartment hunt next week
19:47	kovas	i moved here in january last year
19:48	kovas	its a little rough coming in the middle of winter
19:48	kovas	but at least theres a higher vacancy rate
19:52	kovas	bbloom: what are the experiences that made you optimal for solving this problem?
19:52	kovas	you mentioned something about this yesterday
19:53	bbloom	i doubt #clojure cares about my life, so i'll take this over to a private msg
20:32	Frozenlock	kovas: Nice video, but as Datomic isn't OSS, it leaves an informercial aftertaste in my mouth :/
20:33	kovas	frozenlock: true. i'll take free-as-in-beer tho.
20:34	kovas	frozenlock: for me, it happens to hit home very directly.
20:42	TimMc	technomancy: I'm tempted to start using ^:api instead of ^:internal.
20:55	brainproxy	so cool ... been working on this clojure-based REST gateway thing for like 7 months; works great on linux and mac; fired it up for the first time this evening on win7
20:55	brainproxy	using lein.bat
20:55	brainproxy	required 0 code changes to work properly
20:56	bbloom	nice
20:58	cark	java really IS run anywhere =P
20:59	brainproxy	cark: i know, i was just resigned to the fact that something somewhere inside would breadk or have to be tweaked
20:59	brainproxy	but it didn't, made me smile for sure
21:00	cark	I have a similar experience to yours...been developing under windows not even knowing if the application would end up on linux or solaris. Enventually it did end up on solaris, never had to change a line in clojre either
21:01	cark	funny thing is i'm mostly clueless about any unix =P
21:02	cark	still ended up doing support for postgres on solaris =(
21:02	brainproxy	hehe
21:03	tmciver	brainproxy: sounds cool. Do you have a url to that project?
21:03	cark	nope
21:03	brainproxy	tmciver: it's a commercial product, all closed source unfortunately
21:04	tmciver	tease
21:04	brainproxy	tmciver: i hope at some point we can pull out some of the generic pieces and open source them
21:05	brainproxy	we've been busy building abstractions on top of datomic, and I think there's a lightweight framework lurking in there somehwere for modeling forms and views as entities and functions in datomic
21:50	Frozenlock	Given this "(defmulti my-multi (fn [smap] (:some-k smap)))", I would expect "(defmethod my-multi :val-of-key-from-smap [x] (print "yeah!"))" to work.. but it doesn't. Am I not dispatching on the value retrieved in a map?
21:51	gfredericks	Frozenlock: looks fine to me
21:51	gfredericks	have you tried rebooting?
21:51	Frozenlock	No o_O
21:51	gfredericks	what's not working?
21:51	Frozenlock	Rebooting, like in the 90's?
21:52	gfredericks	yeah sometimes the start menu gets stuck
21:52	Frozenlock	No method in multimethod 'my-multi' for dispatch value: {:some-k :some-value}
21:52	gfredericks	IMPOSSIBLE
21:53	Frozenlock	What?
21:53	clojurebot	what is 2d6
21:53	gfredericks	I'll go try it
21:53	Frozenlock	I'm rebooting my repl, shouldn't be long..
21:54	gfredericks	Frozenlock: worked fine for me
21:54	Frozenlock	Ah! It works now.
21:54	gfredericks	yeah must've been the start menu
21:54	Frozenlock	Is this dangerous to use in production, or is it really just sometimes in the repl?
21:54	gfredericks	I have no idea what was wrong
21:55	gfredericks	did you do several defmultis on the same fn name?
21:55	Frozenlock	Hopefully IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN! :)
21:55	Frozenlock	Thanks for the help
21:55	Frozenlock	Yes
21:55	gfredericks	I guess it could be something like that :/ not sure how they're implemented
21:56	muhoo	state
21:56	muhoo	objects. java. trouble.
22:03	amalloy	yes, defmulti is broken by design
22:04	amalloy	ie, (defmulti foo f) (defmulti foo g) ;; the second defmulti didn't do anything, and the dispatch function is still f
22:06	bbloom	grumble grubmle death to def
22:06	tpope	what "design" is that?
22:07	bbloom	tpope: i think the premise is that if you reload a file, you don't want to break any other namespaces that installed methods into your dispatch table
22:07	tpope	ah
22:08	yedi	http://blog.getprismatic.com/blog/2013/1/22/the-magic-of-macros-lighting-fast-templating-in-clojurescript
22:08	bbloom	defmethod basically "installs" a handler into some mutable cell owned by defmulti
22:08	bbloom	and that has all the usual problems associated with mutation and state :-/
22:11	muhoo	bbloom: thank you for macroexpanding
22:15	spjt	Is there some way to limit a clojure process to a single thread?
22:16	gfredericks	spjt: I expect s/clojure/java/ should give you the same answer
22:18	Frozenlock	bbloom: But isn't a multi limited to its namespace?
22:18	spjt	I saw some examples of how to limit it in Java, looks complicated.
22:18	Frozenlock	spjt: Everything looks complicated in java :p
22:18	gfredericks	Frozenlock: no you can extend a multimethod from anywhere
22:18	gfredericks	Frozenlock: that's most of the point of multimethods
22:18	spjt	I guess I'll just run it in Parallels with only one core active.
22:19	Frozenlock	gfredericks: So if you load a library with a defmulti named "foo", "foo" is locked for everyone else??
22:19	lazybot	Frozenlock: Definitely not.
22:20	jkkramer	lazybot is correct
22:20	gfredericks	Frozenlock: I can't reconcile that statement with the rest of the conversation
22:20	jkkramer	methods are "installed" into the var of the defmulti, which is namedspaced
22:20	gfredericks	(defmethod some.other.ns/varname ...)
22:21	jkkramer	my favorite defmulti feature: (defmulti foo "docstring" f) (defmulti foo "docstring" f) ;; obliterates foo's docstring
22:21	Frozenlock	Ahh ok! Well that's what I meant by limited to its namespace
22:22	gfredericks	Frozenlock: crisis averted!
22:22	Frozenlock	Indeed, I was about to scrap all my new shiny defmultis :p
22:27	spjt	Maybe I could ask in a more clojurey way. Basically, what I'm doing is running a bunch of sends, using a function that takes a "long" time to complete. Does the agent prevent writes while the function is running?
22:27	Frozenlock	yedi: Brilliant
22:30	yedi	im still trying to understand how they accomplished it... need to wrap my head around macros
22:31	gfredericks	macros: they are things to use
22:31	yedi	it's crazy that they got it so much faster than all the other cljs templating libs
22:31	Frozenlock	yedi: is it? cljs still seems to be a small world
22:32	gfredericks	yeah I don't think crate even tries
22:33	Frozenlock	It looks like it uses the same templating; I'll be able to switch the library without too much problem.
22:34	gfredericks	Frozenlock: it'll be less composable though
22:34	gfredericks	or at least I assume the more you break stuff into separate functions the more the perf suffers
22:45	hiredman	~apropos clojure
22:45	clojurebot	Programming Clojure is a Book Edition. (http://www.freebase.com/view/m/0dg9_5h)
22:45	hiredman	~apropos java
22:45	clojurebot	Java Virtual Machine is a Video Game Platform. (http://www.freebase.com/view/m/045rk)
22:46	amalloy	(inc lazybot)
22:46	lazybot	⇒ 12
22:46	hiredman	hah
22:48	technomancy	bbloom: FWIW the hard-locked dispatch function is a completely different problem from defmethod updating the method table
22:48	bbloom	in what way?
22:48	technomancy	they're two separate problems
22:49	bbloom	the assumption is that some other namespace somewhere is dependent on your dispatch function
22:49	technomancy	though I suppose the brokenness around the former was introduced specifically in order to deal with complications around the latter
22:49	bbloom	yup...
22:49	technomancy	so they're related, but still two separate distinct problems
22:50	technomancy	it's easy to imagine a defmulti that allowed the dispatch function to be updated without blowing away the method table
22:50	hiredman	technomancy: the method table and the dispatch function are tied to each other via the cache of dispatch function results
22:50	technomancy	and if it weren't for Jira and the broken contribution process I would be tempted to try to fix that
22:50	bbloom	technomancy: lol. did you speak up in that crazy thread?
22:50	bbloom	i feel like your involvement with lein should carry some weight
22:50	technomancy	bbloom: I've said everything I have to say
22:50	bbloom	heh
22:51	technomancy	except that I think a separate cljs mailing list is a good idea
22:52	bbloom	technomancy: shrug i don't think it would hurt, but i haven't seen significant cljs-specific mail traffic
22:52	technomancy	hiredman: sure but during development you shouldn't have any qualms about blowing away the cache
22:55	technomancy	bbloom: that thread is just people yelling at Andy Fingerhut and Sean Corfield anyway
22:55	technomancy	no one who's actually in a position to make a difference will even touch it
22:57	bbloom	technomancy: at least stuart halloway is on the electronic CA thing
22:59	technomancy	oh, I missed that