#clojure – 2013-01-10

2013-01-10

00:09	arrdem	you could modify this to show value changes...
00:09	arrdem	but (gensym) would be involved.
00:10	gtrak	well, the solution I'm thinking of is to let clojure manipulate the forms, not paredit
00:10	arrdem	haha that'll be a good start
00:15	blackdog	is there a reason (doc :>) doesn't work?
00:15	blackdog	how do you look up symbols?
00:15	gtrak	,(doc +)
00:15	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns the sum of nums. (+) returns 0. Does not auto-promote longs, will throw on overflow. See also: +'"
00:15	gtrak	,`doc
00:15	clojurebot	clojure.repl/doc
00:16	gtrak	might be a clue
00:16	arrdem	,(cons :foo #{:bar :bas})
00:16	clojurebot	(:foo :bas :bar)
00:17	gtrak	ha
00:17	arrdem	herm.
00:17	gtrak	,(second (cons :foo #{:bar :bas}))
00:17	clojurebot	:bas
00:17	gtrak	:-D
00:17	blackdog	gtrak: ah, i think i see what's going on. it's just a symbol, and there's some cascalog macro that does something evil/clever with it
00:18	gtrak	cascalog is mostly cleverness, so I don't doubt it
00:18	blackdog	gtrak: so i'm gathering :)
00:19	gtrak	cascading on its own makes me poke my eyes out
00:20	gtrak	but I suppose it's better than straight map-reduce
00:23	tomoj	whoa
00:25	tomoj	datomic.db/->Datum looks like a customized record constructor
00:25	gtrak	oooo
00:25	tomoj	its last arg is a number which gets converted into a boolean in the Datum
00:26	tomoj	oh, no
00:26	gtrak	when in evaluation do those get created? right after a defrecord? I honestly don't know.
00:26	tomoj	it's just a custom ILookup and custom printed repr
00:26	gtrak	ah
00:26	tomoj	right at the end of the macroexpansion of defrecord
00:26	gtrak	I wonder if you could wrap one and give it the same name, though
00:27	gtrak	I can't think of why not
00:27	gtrak	ah, it's just a defn
00:31	arrdem	Okay. I'm being too clever for my own good, but this'll print temporary values from rebindings as well. https://www.refheap.com/paste/8315
00:31	gtrak	hahaha
00:32	gtrak	yea, that's totally incomprehensible
00:32	gtrak	it should be in core
00:32	arrdem	haha. what's illegible about it? seems obvious to me...
00:32	gtrak	well, b/c you wrote it
00:32	arrdem	there is that.
00:34	gtrak	vec's nice instead of apply vector..
00:34	mattmoss	&((+()()())(-((+()())(+()())(+()()))())(+()()))
00:34	lazybot	⇒ 42
00:35	loliveira	how do I perform
00:36	loliveira	how do I perform a multiiple insert using clojure.java.jdbc?
00:38	jkkramer	loliveira: insert-records
00:38	loliveira	it is only possible when each value is passed to insert function.
00:39	gtrak	huh, I was hoping datomic was flexible wrt lucene.. disappointed, going manual..
00:39	loliveira	(sql/insert-values :x [:a :b] [1 2] [3 4]) is ok but (sql/insert-values :x some-vector) not.
00:40	jkkramer	loliveira: (apply sql/insert-rows :x [:a :b] collection-of-rows)
00:41	gtrak	arrdem: I see, you so you just rename the symbols if they're rebound
00:42	jkkramer	insert-values, rather
00:42	arrdem	gtrak: I don't rename... I create a new "intermediate state" one which will preserve the value to be destroyed and then faitfully include the rebinding
00:43	arrdem	so [a 1 a 2] -> [a 1 a_rebinding_1 a a 2]
00:43	gtrak	ah, yea
00:45	loliveira	gtrak: ty. i will try.
00:46	gtrak	loliveira: think you meant jkkramer
00:46	loliveira	=)
00:46	loliveira	jkkramer: ty
00:49	loliveira	jkkramer: it worked. ty.
00:54	arrdem	gtrak: alternate implementation... thoughts? https://www.refheap.com/paste/8318
00:55	arrdem	I'm concerned that it'll suck because I recalculate the frequencies map every itteration but I don't know how much of that Clojure'll optimize out.
00:55	gtrak	arrdem: if it happens at compile time, then it'll just slow down compile
00:56	gtrak	so, read, macro-expand... then you've got just code... so the let bindings in the end map to locals, no cost
00:57	arrdem	at runtime sure.
00:57	arrdem	but in something "large"... this is gonna be O(N!)
00:57	gtrak	haha
00:57	gtrak	meh
00:57	gtrak	it's good to have the dirtiness grow proportionately on multiple axes
00:58	gtrak	consistency :-)
00:59	gtrak	clojure doesn't optimize much really
00:59	arrdem	well.. no.. O(1/2 x^2)
01:00	gtrak	it mostly just relies on the JIT and not doing bad things in code-gen
01:00	gtrak	I guess with the exception of primitives
01:01	gtrak	the compiler's only aware of special forms
01:02	gtrak	i think there's gotta be a limit on how many locals in a stack frame
01:03	arrdem	right... but it should be frikkin huge
01:03	arrdem	couple hundred ish
01:05	arrdem	Okay... so 255 is the limit for java function arguments...
01:10	arrdem	Okay... well (print-let (vec (interpose (map gensym (range 1000)) (repeat 1)))) has had over two minuted of compute time I'll call that dead
01:13	gtrak	but is it web-scale?
01:13	arrdem	gtrak: probably not... I'm kicking and it's still down
01:19	augustl	is there a good way to process just the values of a map?
01:19	augustl	I did a group-by, but now I need to process the values before I'm done
01:19	augustl	I need to do the grouping first for the processing to make sense
01:20	arrdem	,(vals {:foo [:bar :baz] :bung [ 2 3 4 ]})
01:20	clojurebot	([:bar :baz] [2 3 4])
01:21	tomoj	don't think of anything better
01:21	augustl	I should also mention that I need to return a map :)
01:21	augustl	so {:foo 1 :bar 2} should essentially return {:foo (process 1) :bar (process 2)}
01:22	tomoj	I wish it were (r/map process {:foo 1 :bar 2})
01:22	tomoj	but that doesn't work
01:22	gtrak	augustl: seq functions and into are your friend
01:22	augustl	I usually use zipmap, but then I need to assign the map to something :)
01:22	arrdem	tomoj: all I've got is a nested function application...
01:23	tomoj	oh, I thought you were someone else
01:23	tomoj	and thought you had a different question
01:23	tomoj	oh
01:23	gtrak	,(into {} (for [[k v] {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}] [k (inc v)]))
01:23	tomoj	nevermind :)
01:23	clojurebot	{:a 2, :c 4, :b 3}
01:24	arrdem	(inc gtrak)
01:24	lazybot	⇒ 5
01:25	arrdem	gtrak: I fixed an infinite sequence issue and now (let) and my rebinder are handling 10,000 symbol lets manfully
01:25	arrdem	erp no that's a stackoverflow.
01:25	gtrak	ah, neat
01:25	gtrak	hopefully that's more than you can read
01:25	arrdem	as is 5k....
01:25	arrdem	2k is OK
01:25	ivan	(defn mapvals [f m] (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (f v)]) m)))
01:26	arrdem	3k is OK
01:26	arrdem	.... oh I was using the fast (loop) one.
01:26	arrdem	lemme try the (reduce)
01:27	gtrak	ivan: for makes you look more l33t
01:27	arrdem	gtrak: yeah 3k worked with the (reduce) but took about half a second instead of being instant
01:28	arrdem	holy shit
01:28	gtrak	arrdem: sounds like locals
01:29	gtrak	well, I can't tell what's slowing it down specifically
01:29	arrdem	anyone got a better stress-test idea than (rebinding-expand (vec (take 3000 (interleave (repeat `foo) (repeat 1))))) ?
01:29	gtrak	arrdem: why do you avoid frequencies in the the loop-recur?
01:30	arrdem	gtrak: because in the loop-recur I build the frequencies map by hand
01:30	arrdem	if I processed a previously seen sym I (inc) it...
01:30	arrdem	and if I haven't seen it I set it's count to 1
01:31	gtrak	ah, you could probably pass that around in your accumulator then pull it out in the end
01:31	ivan	clojurebot: why is startup slow is busy compiling the `for` macroexpansion
01:31	clojurebot	Ok.
01:33	arrdem	gtrak: is the (reduce) really sufficiently more readable that you would hack it into what is, in terms of datastructures exactly the loop-recur?
01:34	arrdem	I mean there's no appreciable speed difference between the two on a "modern" pc for any sane number of symbols so it just comes down to style.
01:34	gtrak	it's equivalent, reduce is closer to the data side of code is data
01:35	gtrak	and has some built in benefits, like 'reductions'
01:36	gtrak	reifying a computation into a seq is what lazy seqs are all about
01:36	arrdem	right... but by nature this isn't a lazy seq.
01:36	gtrak	sure
01:36	gtrak	if looking at it as data is useless, then it's not worth the effort :-)
01:37	arrdem	idk. this whole thing is just an "exercise for the reader" don't mean to harp on about it.
01:37	arrdem	haha if only all languages were as pragmatic...
01:37	gtrak	useless and interesting :-)
01:38	arrdem	well IDK about useless... I intend to use that let-print but the rebinding-expand is me being silly.
02:44	dyreshark	does clojure have a way to check to see if two lists contain the same elements, regardless of order? i.e. (foo '(1 2 3 4) '(4 2 3 1)) ; => true
02:47	tomoj	no
02:47	tomoj	regardless of order and multiplicity or just order?
02:47	tomoj	for the former, #(apply = (map set %&))
02:47	tomoj	for the latter, I guess #(apply = (map frequencies %&))
02:51	pppaul	hello
02:51	pppaul	what clojure books are easiest to digest?
03:06	amalloy	e-books. paper is too pulpy
03:07	Raynes	amalloy: Thank you, man.
03:07	Raynes	amalloy: I'll never understand people's fascination with paper books.
03:08	Raynes	I have no desire to own a paper programming book.
03:08	amalloy	<3 paper books
03:08	Raynes	Why though?
03:09	pppaul	they taste better
03:09	arcatan	for non-fiction books, i like the ease of browsing the book by just leafing through it or opening it from random places
03:09	pppaul	e-books sting
03:09	talios	toilet paper :)
03:09	talios	I wipe my a*** on scala :)
03:09	Raynes	Your asss?
03:10	pppaul	it's better than just a normal ass
03:10	talios	its bigger than a normal one thats for sure ;p
03:10	pppaul	(inc ass) -> asss
03:11	Raynes	"I like the feel of a paper book in my hands" is a big one. Whatever, hold a book in your left and and a kindle in your right.
03:11	ro_st	pretty hard to write a thoughtful note on the inside cover of a digital book when gifting it
03:12	Raynes	Amazon lets you send a comment when you gift a book, IIRC. Or you can include the pdf as an email attachment if you bought it elsewhere.
03:12	Raynes	Seems like a weird reason for preferring paper books.
03:12	ro_st	collectability?
03:12	ro_st	-looks at his complete Terry Pratchett collection-
03:12	Raynes	I have a nice big organized kindle library and tons of shelf space.
03:13	amalloy	lendability too
03:13	amalloy	shrug that's not an ebook
03:13	ro_st	paper books don't need batteries
03:13	ro_st	or amazon/itunes accounts
03:13	ro_st	that makes them far more lendable
03:13	Raynes	If you don't have electricity you have bigger problems than books.
03:14	Raynes	amalloy: What is an ebook then?
03:14	Raynes	I was under the impression that ebooks came in various formats.
03:14	ro_st	i've decided to stop throwing baseballs at you :-)
03:15	ro_st	are you going to Cwest, Raynes?
03:15	Raynes	I don't know if I'm ever going to another conference ever again.
03:15	Raynes	But definitely not that one.
03:15	ro_st	it's only 12 hours away by train
03:16	ro_st	(or so i am told)
03:16	amalloy	someday, a pdf may be an ebook. right now, pdfs aren't nearly as flexible on an ereader as, say, a .mobi or a .epub. graceful resizing, a sane TOC, the ability to highlight/note stuff "in the margins"
03:16	Raynes	Whatever /me sends amalloy an epub
03:16	ro_st	decent search
03:16	Raynes	ro_st: I'd probably have to use vacation days to go, and I'd have to pay for it.
03:17	amalloy	ebooks are more convenient most of the time, for sure. easier to get
03:17	Raynes	I really don't think I'd go to any conferences I have to actually pay for, even if I did have the money. It doesn't feel worth it for most conferences
03:18	ro_st	Raynes: sorry to hear that. i realise i'm incredibly lucky to have the company pay for me to go, especially considering i live in cape town
03:18	amalloy	but amazon can take them away from you whenever they feel like it, and sometimes that happens. and you don't own them, you only own a license to read them. it's against the rules to let someone borrow one, for now
03:18	amalloy	or to inherit from your parents
03:18	Raynes	IIRC, we're going to get to go to a conference again someday.
03:18	ro_st	cwest looks like a cracker, esp with the minikanren bolt-on.
03:19	Raynes	I wish I was more interested in all the logic talks, but I mostly just feel like taking a nap during them,
03:19	ro_st	Raynes, are you/will you be using Clj for work?
03:19	Raynes	We use Clojure.
03:20	ro_st	what sort of thing do you work on? web stuff?
03:20	Raynes	I work on backend stuff.
03:20	echo-area	Is there ACL related stuff in nREPL? I can telnet on localhost, but cannot telnet from another host
03:21	ro_st	echo-area: we use ssh tunneling
03:21	amalloy	nrepl is probably only listening on localhost, not on 0.0.0.0, echo-area
03:21	ro_st	map a local port to a remote port over ssh, and then nrepl to the local
03:21	echo-area	ro_st: Oh, let me try
03:22	Raynes	ro_st: How did you know I was moving to LA?
03:22	Raynes	Sneaky.
03:22	ro_st	saw you mention it a couple times
03:23	Raynes	You're like a ninja, waiting in the bushes.
03:23	ro_st	we're watching you, Raynes.
03:25	ro_st	Raynes: what do you think of the luminus additions?
03:25	ro_st	to lib-noir
03:26	Raynes	Well, I approved them.
03:26	ro_st	a pal just started with clojure, doing web stuff. i recommended he start with the luminus template and lib-noir
03:27	Raynes	I'm pretty biased since I maintain lib-noir. :P
03:27	Raynes	But yeah, luminus is a great start (and includes lib-noir).
03:28	ro_st	we have like 80 defpages and pre-routes to convert
03:28	ro_st	going to be nice to get it upgraded. compojure is much more composable
03:29	ro_st	i like how you can compose routing groups with contexts
03:30	echo-area	ro_st: Thanks, it is not convenient that way but it works
03:30	ro_st	echo-area: cool. i've yet to find a clever way to disable auto-complete in emacs when connecting to a remote nrepl. it's soooo slowwww.
03:31	ro_st	echo-area: ping cemerick. whatever he's doing is the right way :-)
03:33	echo-area	ro_st: It's not slow here
03:33	ro_st	i'm in cape town and we ssh into ec2
03:33	ro_st	definitely slow for us
03:33	ro_st	we had a local VPS which was nice and fast
03:33	ro_st	so… lucky you :-)
03:33	echo-area	Oh, that's another story :)
03:40	tomoj	&(= (:foo :bar))
03:40	lazybot	⇒ true
03:40	tomoj	bad typo
03:40	ro_st	&(:a :b)
03:40	lazybot	⇒ nil
03:40	ro_st	interesting
03:41	tomoj	&(:a (Object.) 42)
03:41	lazybot	⇒ 42
03:41	ro_st	how long'd that take to hunt down, tomoj?
03:41	tomoj	probably 1min
03:41	tomoj	was in existence without my knowledge for maybe 3
03:46	ro_st	nice. high five
03:46	ro_st	you're clearly a landoflisp.com/#guilds warrior!
03:52	tomoj	eh, function was 5 lines long, not many places to look
03:54	dyreshark	thanks tomoj
04:31	rahcola	any recommendations for a simple parsing library to use when writing macros?
04:32	rahcola	maybe something like what Scheme has?
04:48	Sgeo_	,(fn name [] name) ; I forget whether this is a thing
04:48	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval27$name__28 sandbox$eval27$name__28@7be1232c>
04:48	Sgeo_	,(fn name [] (name))
04:48	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval55$name__56 sandbox$eval55$name__56@3fe2135c>
04:48	Sgeo_	,((fn name [] (name)))
04:48	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.StackOverflowError>
04:54	echo-area	&(+ 3 4)
04:54	lazybot	⇒ 7
04:54	foodoo	,((fn name [] (recur)))
04:54	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
04:55	foodoo	Sgeo_: use tail calls to avoid stack overflows ;)
04:55	Sgeo_	Or I could just use a language with TCO >.>
04:56	Sgeo_	Or perhaps implement a Clojure-like language in that language
04:56	foodoo	Sgeo_: Or add TCO to the clojure compiler. It's not really a language issue, but a compiler issue, isn't it?
05:01	noidi	foodoo, I think the compiler could only change self-calls into loops, but it can't support mutual tail recursion as that's not supported by the JVM
05:02	noidi	i.e. when fn a calls b from tail position, a's stack frame can't be optimized away
05:03	foodoo	noidi: I don't know much about JVM bytecode, but isn't there some kind of goto, that could be used to avoid building stack frames/function calls?
05:03	zamaterian_	jahluv Discrete Mathematics and Its Application - Kenneth H. Rosen.pdf
05:05	noidi	foodoo, I don't know, but a quick google turned up this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/105834/does-the-jvm-prevent-tail-call-optimizations?lq=1
05:05	foodoo	noidi: okay. So it's a security thing. Thanks. Nice to know
05:06	noidi	I've yet to encounter a situation when the lack of TCO would have really bothered me
05:08	noidi	using trampolines is a bit of a bother, but I think I've only used them once
05:08	noidi	and I actually prefer the distinction between recur and stack-consuming recursion
05:19	Raynes	$latest lein-gitify
05:19	lazybot	[lein-gitify "0.1.0"] -- https://clojars.org/lein-gitify
05:19	Raynes	$latest lein-bin
05:19	lazybot	[lein-bin "0.2.0"] -- https://clojars.org/lein-bin
05:20	Raynes	$botsnack
05:20	lazybot	Raynes: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
05:20	Raynes	$latest bultitude
05:20	lazybot	[bultitude "0.2.0"] -- https://clojars.org/bultitude
05:21	ejackson	$Raynesnack
05:21	ejackson	Raynes, dude, laser is cool.
05:22	Raynes	ejackson: As an ice cube.
05:22	ejackson	i've always liked enlive for its awesome factor, but this comes with all that AND....
05:22	ejackson	docs
05:22	ejackson	crazy
05:23	ejackson	i hope you enjoyed my MVPR (minimum viable pull request)
05:23	Raynes	I did, indeed. :P
05:23	Raynes	I never proof-read that guide at all.
05:24	ejackson	i read it yesterday, and its pretty clear, thanks for taking the effort
05:24	Raynes	:D
05:24	ejackson	communicating these libraries is the uberkey
05:25	Raynes	hrm
05:26	Raynes	lein-bin isn't resolving.
05:26	Raynes	I even just pushed a new version, but leiningen can't find it.
05:26	Raynes	Bizarre.
05:26	Raynes	And extremely annoying.
06:18	pmaes	I'd like to provide some preprocessing functions to use my library with others. At the moment I rely on a dependency to these projects. This isn't ideal. Is there a better way to do this?
06:21	ro_st	move the code out to its own project and have its previous project use it as a dep, and then share that same project with your 'others'
06:51	tomoj	&(Math/pow 2 0x2000)
06:51	lazybot	⇒ Infinity
06:51	tomoj	&(= 0x2000 (* 8 1024))
06:51	lazybot	⇒ true
06:53	Raynes	ejackson: Are you using (or planning to use) laser for anything?
06:54	ejackson	not right now, although I certainly will soon
06:54	Raynes	o/
06:54	ejackson	I'm forever parsing HTML and XML
06:54	ejackson	the next one I write will be in laser
07:06	wingy	is there a way to trigger a fn when heroku run my app?
07:06	ro_st	call it from your main fn ?
07:06	ro_st	or do you mean, how do you do a 'main' fn?
07:07	wingy	ro_st: i mean do i have to call it in my :main fn
07:07	wingy	i mean :main namespace
07:08	ro_st	your main namespace should have a defn -main in it
07:08	wingy	ok
07:08	ro_st	doesn't the heroku clojure guide cover this?
07:11	vijaykiran	wingy: you can add a procfile to run whatever the lein command you want to use as "start"
07:44	Ember-	hey, I have a problem with with-redefs-fn and multiple bindings
07:44	Ember-	for some reason this doesn't seem to work:
07:44	dbushenko	how to set context path in a ring/compojure application (for deployment on tomcat)
07:44	dbushenko	?
07:44	Ember-	(with-redefs-fn {#'foo.bar/bloo (fn [] "ubr") #'foo.bar/blergh (fn [] "ubr")}
07:45	Ember-	how should I place the multiple binding arguments?
07:45	Ember-	if not that way
07:47	Ember-	oh, my bad just found out what I was doing wrong
07:47	Ember-	not there :)
07:54	Sgeo	*mechanism
07:54	Sgeo	Where the interesting thing is how it's extendable
07:58	Sgeo	Wait, does rhickey have something against pattern matching?
07:58	tomoj	is there an easy way to compile new cljs in a compatible way with previously compiled js already loaded in a browser?
07:59	dbushenko	how to set context path in compojure application?
08:16	ejackson	Sgeo: you mean the complected comment ?
08:17	Sgeo	ejackson, I've never really seen the complecting talk
08:17	ejackson	oh, ok then.
08:18	ejackson	i think he gave pattern matching as an example of complection.
08:18	ejackson	ie having the dispatch and functionality in the same place in the code
08:26	pjstadig	i think the complection was that it is ordered
08:26	pjstadig	it complects dispatch with the order of the matching clauses
08:27	ejackson	aaaah, that makes even better sense
08:27	ejackson	thanks
08:31	gfredericks	I guess it's always hanging on retrieving the closure jar
08:43	aroemers	Nice word, complecting. I used it in my master thesis, and my supervisor was like, is that a word? Well, yes it is!
08:46	clojure-newb	hey guys… whats a nice way to generate an arbitrary number of td tags to go inside a tr tag (from a map maybe) in enlive ?
08:46	clojure-newb	I kind of want to avoid writing a string of html content
08:46	gfredericks	looks like crate removed the string functionality all together?
08:53	tomoj	update-proxy: "Note that this function can be used to update the behavior of an existing instance without changing its identity. Returns the proxy."
08:53	tomoj	wow!
08:53	tomoj	that's nuts
08:54	gfredericks	tomoj: wat why does that exist
08:55	tomoj	I think I've wanted that before
08:56	ejackson	clojure-newb: you need to use do. I'd suggest you switch from enlive to laser by Raynes, as its similar but well documented.
08:56	ejackson	clojure-newb: look at Seq of Nodes in https://github.com/Raynes/laser/blob/master/docs/guide.md
08:57	Raynes	Has anybody ever written a lazy version of clojure.walk?
08:57	clojure-newb	ejackson: thx, I will go take a look
09:06	samrat	any idea why this do form isn't working? https://www.refheap.com/paste/8328
09:09	dbushenko	how to set context path in compojure application?
09:09	weavejester	dbushenko: The context macro
09:09	dbushenko	can you please point me at any example?
09:10	dbushenko	I've seen the discussions where you have already advised :context and :path-info and other ways
09:10	dbushenko	but couldn't get any of them working
09:11	dbushenko	each time I deploy my app to tomat, the resources and requests go to "/" but not to "/myapp/"
09:13	dbushenko	weavejester ...
09:13	weavejester	dbushenko: Oh, you're deploying to Tomcat?
09:13	weavejester	dbushenko: Via lein-ring?
09:14	dbushenko	yep
09:14	weavejester	lein-ring will automatically set the :context and :path-info keys
09:14	weavejester	But some Ring middleware doesn't currently use :path-info
09:14	weavejester	Like wrap-resources
09:14	dbushenko	so what should I do?
09:15	weavejester	The compojure.route/resources will work
09:15	weavejester	And is recommended if you're using Compojure
09:15	dbushenko	ok, let me try...
09:18	yogthos	weavejester: got a question, about lein ring server, is it possible to bootstrap it from a main?
09:18	weavejester	yogthos: Bootstrap it?
09:18	yogthos	weavejester: and would there be any downsided vs using run-jetty
09:19	yogthos	weavejester: what I mean is that when run-jetty runs you can't hook in init/destroy
09:19	dbushenko	weavejester, so I did the following: (route/resources "/myapp/"). But that still didn't help
09:19	yogthos	weavejester: but when it runs as a war or with lein ring server then those get picked up
09:19	weavejester	yogthos: "lein ring server" uses the ring-server library underneath
09:20	weavejester	yogthos: So you could include ring-server and then use ring.server.standalone/serve
09:20	weavejester	yogthos: https://github.com/weavejester/ring-server/blob/master/src/ring/server/standalone.clj
09:20	yogthos	weavejester: any pros/cons between that and run-jetty?
09:21	Raynes	weavejester: Do you plan to add a crouton-to-html function or the like to crouton?
09:21	weavejester	dbushenko: What exactly is going wrong?
09:21	yogthos	weavejester: looks like it would be more consistent for me to use ring-server in the template
09:22	weavejester	Raynes: What would that do? Render a Clojure XML map as a HTML string?
09:22	weavejester	yogthos: Why do you want to use a -main method in the first place?
09:23	weavejester	yogthos: I mean, why manually create a -main method?
09:23	yogthos	weavejester: heroku needs a main for example
09:23	Raynes	weavejester: Yeah. I was actually just curious if you had already written something like that, because I'm probably going to rewrite hickory's to-html function (which isn't stack safe) soon.
09:23	dbushenko	weavejester, each time the resources point to localhost:8080/css/file.css instead of localhost:8080/myapp/css/file.css
09:23	Raynes	yogthos: It doesn't.
09:23	yogthos	Raynes: no?
09:23	Raynes	yogthos: You can run your code however you like on heroku.
09:23	Raynes	I run refheap with lein ring server-headless, IIRC.
09:24	yogthos	Raynes: ooh, I didn't realize that
09:24	weavejester	yogthos: I'd be tempted to use "lein ring server" in production, but set something like...
09:24	Raynes	Whatever is in your Procfile.
09:24	yogthos	Raynes: ah that makes sense
09:24	weavejester	:profiles {:production {:ring {:open-browser? false :stacktraces? false :auto-reload false}}}
09:25	weavejester	Raynes: I haven't written anything like that, but I imagine JSoup might have something for rendering HTML that we could use in Crouton
09:25	yogthos	weavejester: you'd have to have lein on the target machine for that though
09:25	Raynes	weavejester: I need to write something that works with maps.
09:26	weavejester	yogthos: Yes, but Lein-Ring 0.8.0-SNAPSHOT has the "lein ring uberjar" command
09:26	weavejester	yogthos: Which creates an executable jar file with a main method
09:26	yogthos	weavejester: ah nice
09:26	weavejester	So if you want to deploy it to Linux with an nginx proxy
09:26	weavejester	lein ring uberjar
09:27	weavejester	And then: java -jar <project>-<version>-standalone.jar
09:27	yogthos	weavejester: right right
09:27	tomoj	if you make your proxy class implement clone sanely
09:27	yogthos	weavejester: I guess my only other use case for a main is actually running it from something like eclipse
09:28	tomoj	.. can you?
09:28	yogthos	weavejester: but yeah that might not be worth the trouble
09:28	weavejester	dbushenko: I don't understand what you mean by "the resources point to localhost:8080/css/file.css"
09:28	weavejester	dbushenko: Do you mean the links in your HTML file don't point to the right place?
09:29	weavejester	dbushenko: If so, that's something that needs to be solved by whatever generates the HTML
09:29	weavejester	dbushenko: Hiccup, for instance, has wrap-base-url
09:30	dbushenko	weavejester, thanks
09:30	dbushenko	though I use Enlive
09:30	dbushenko	will look into it
09:30	weavejester	dbushenko: I don't believe Enlive will automatically change your links for you
09:30	dbushenko	so what would you suggest?
09:30	weavejester	yogthos: My current thought is that you should only manually have to create the handler
09:31	weavejester	yogthos: How the handler is deployed, either as a war, or with an embedded Jetty server, or whatever, is an compilation detail
09:32	yogthos	weavejester: right that makes sense
09:32	weavejester	dbushenko: You can still use Enlive. You just need to be aware that it's a templating solution - it doesn't have an awareness of anything outside that. (as far as I know)
09:32	yogthos	weavejester: but then what's the option for starting it from the repl?
09:32	weavejester	dbushenko: So you have to ensure your links are created with a context you can change depending on how it is deployed.
09:33	dbushenko	ok, thanks
09:33	weavejester	yogthos: ring.server.repl … when I get around to writing it :)
09:33	yogthos	weavejester: haha, alright as soon as it shows up I'm on it :)
09:34	weavejester	yogthos: Or just use run-jetty… REPLs are a little trickier because they don't have a connection to your project options directly
09:34	yogthos	weavejester: that's pretty much what the -main is doing right now
09:34	weavejester	yogthos: So you'd need to manually enter them I guess. Or somehow pull the project map into the REPL
09:34	weavejester	But rather than starting a web server from a REPL
09:35	yogthos	weavejester: but I really like the plan of leaving it up to lein-ring to create the standalone jars and wars
09:35	weavejester	I wonder if it might make more sense to start a REPL server from the web server with something like drawbridge
09:35	weavejester	Not sure whether that's a good idea or not
09:35	yogthos	weavejester: could be a security hole :)
09:35	yogthos	weavejester: if you forget to disable it for production for example
09:35	weavejester	yogthos: If it's just turned on in development
09:36	weavejester	yogthos: Technically speaking, things like stacktraces are a security weakpoint if you leave them on in production
09:36	yogthos	weavejester: yup
09:36	yogthos	weavejester: the more of that you can minimize by default the better though I think
09:37	weavejester	I think technomancy disagrees with me on my slight phobia of the -main method
09:37	yogthos	weavejester: I'm a big fan of reasonable defaults, and then let the user tweak them if they feel they need to
09:38	weavejester	But he works for Heroku, where all the web apps are standalone apps with main methods :)
09:38	yogthos	weavejester: I think for short term I'll switch my main to use ring-server, so at least it'll be consistent and I'll document that proper way to build stuff for deploying is by using lein ring uberwar/uberjar
09:56	Anderkent	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalStateException: Pop without matching push - any ideas?
09:56	knob	Good morning everyone
10:13	yogthos	weavejester: is the lein-ring 0.8 snapshot generally stable enough to switch to from from 0.7.5?
10:14	weavejester	yogthos: It should be. I was going to release 0.8.0 in the next day or two, once I've run a few more tests
10:15	yogthos	weavejester: excellent, I think what I'll do is just provide a start-server/stop-server functions for repl dev, and then the only way to build a war or a jar is via lein ring
10:32	shafire	hi
10:32	shafire	is someone using jamaicavm with clojure?
10:32	bosie	anyone has this book https://leanpub.com/fp-oo and started with clojure with it?
10:59	julienXX	Anybody know a solution? I'm using Clojure 1.4 with http.async 0.5
11:02	neilmock	julienXX: you need :timeout -1 added to the stream-seq options
11:03	TimMc	Raynes: Just so you know, I'm expecting a Colin Percival-style incident analysis report regarding clojail. (ref: http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2011-01-18-tarsnap-critical-security-bug.html)
11:04	julienXX	neilmock: unfortunately it doesn't solve the issue, the stream is still being stalled after 19 heartbeats
11:04	clojure-newb	ejackson: how do I get a nested element with a selector in laser, maybe <html><body><div><ul> (the ul) ?
11:04	neilmock	julienXX: strange. i was having the same issue and it solved it for me
11:17	yogthos	Raynes: ping
11:49	ejackson	clojure-newb: sorry, AFK.
11:49	clojure-newb	no probs
11:49	clojure-newb	I'm cheating with a different way in :-)
11:49	ejackson	i've not actually run it yet, but I think you want to compose a bunch of child-of selectors with and
11:50	clojure-newb	I've just put a class on the element
11:50	clojure-newb	easier for now
11:50	ejackson	or an id.
12:08	no7hing	has anybody used cemerick's friend library and did start the opened workflow manually?
12:08	no7hing	openid/opened
12:12	cemerick	no7hing: if you're having an issue, maybe post a question to the clojure or clojure-sec lists?
12:12	cemerick	I'm going afk for a while
12:13	no7hing	thanks and i've found a ticket on github: https://github.com/cemerick/friend/issues/17
12:13	cemerick	no7hing: ah; do update the ticket with your use case, as I still don't grok it
12:14	no7hing	will do
12:44	sshack	Okay, I'm having a weird failure. I've setup speclj in a brand new project. I run leon spec -a, and about 50% of the time it dumps me a stack trace. No files in the project have changed (editor is closed).
12:47	sshack	http://pastebin.com/RRmykDPJ
12:48	sshack	An example. Run right after each other.
12:52	TimMc	Some kind of AOT issue?
12:53	hiredman	I prefer to see it as the universe telling you not to bother with speclj
12:59	TimMc	haha, I was waiting for that
13:02	sshack	TimMc: I'm not sure what it is. or why it would happen intermittently.
13:16	alexnixon	I can see there are several clojure validation libraries out there: mississippi, clj-schema, bouncer, validateur, metis, validation-clj (and valip and corroborate, though they look abandoned). Is this a NIH syndrome epidemic, or are there substantial differences between them? Any recommendations on which one to look at first?
13:17	AimHere	Heh, the first 2012 conj video is almost no clojure and almost all music theory
13:18	ibdknox	AimHere: it was the last scheduled presentation, so it fit really nicely as a closing
13:18	technomancy	alexnixon: I'd start with the clojurewerks one; at least you know you'll have docs =)
13:19	AimHere	I approve. Like inviting Scala guys to talk about Scala data structures and Scheme guys to talk about relational programming and guys talking about the etymology of words like 'Simple'. Clojure conferences could be the starting point of a general-purpose education
13:20	ram9	ooh - a clojure conf??
13:20	lazybot	ram9: Definitely not.
13:20	ram9	ahaha
13:21	AimHere	ram9> ClojureTV on youtube is starting to put up the videos for the latest conj conference
13:21	alexnixon	technomancy: so that's "validateur". Thanks, I'll take a look.
13:27	TimMc	alexnixon: Validation libs are the kind of thing that are easy to start writing. :-)
13:29	alexnixon	TimMc: yeah I could see someone starting writing a small function to validate their specific use-case, then growing it over time into something more fully-fledged, then releasing it as a library
13:30	TimMc	Or making something half-assed and releasing it.
13:30	TimMc	I haven't looked at any of the validator libs, but I suspect a goodly number of them are just good enough to address the original author's needs.
13:30	TimMc	s/good/comprehensive/
13:31	nickmbailey	right
13:31	nickmbailey	err wrong window, sorry
13:31	alexnixon	that's the impression I get, although clj-schema looks fairly comprehensive (at first glance)
13:31	TimMc	nickmbailey: It's OK, I don't mind you agreeing with me!
13:32	nickmbailey	without reading any context your statement sound agreeable enough to me :)
13:37	Zerker	T
13:37	Zerker	tar -cvzf
13:39	duncanm	anyone going to the Boston clojure meetup tonight?
13:40	amalloy	if it's any help supporting TimMc's claim, i've released a half-assed validation-related library
13:40	rbxbx	TimMc fwiw I've had good experiences with validateur thusfar.
13:41	rbxbx	Easily extensible to usecases that aren't provided out of the box.
13:42	alexnixon	amalloy: what's the name of it?
13:42	technomancy	I'm going to be disappointed if no one releases one called VALIS
13:43	amalloy	it's at https://github.com/flatland/schematic but doesn't really have any doc aside from the tests (which is one reason it's never been formally announced)
13:50	TimMc	duncanm: Yep.
13:51	TimMc	technomancy: Sounds like a job for... you.
13:51	TimMc	I mean, being a literature reference and all.
13:51	amalloy	gfredericks: real men create tarballs with `tar cz`. the -vf characters are for wimps
13:51	alexnixon	it looks like clj-schema is more composable than validateur (schemas can contain each other, whereas validateur doesn't appear to support that, as far as I can tell)
13:52	jkkramer	fwiw, I released a validation lib recently, too - with a rational - https://github.com/jkk/verily
13:52	alexnixon	jkkramer: why does clj-schema not fit your needs?
13:53	metellus	$findfn 23 5 4
13:53	lazybot	[clojure.core/quot clojure.core/unchecked-divide-int]
13:55	jkkramer	alexnixon: clj-schema is very elaborate
13:55	jkkramer	I wanted something based on simple function composition
13:55	jkkramer	with multi-key map validations
13:58	mattmoss	&(-((+()())(+()()))())
13:58	lazybot	⇒ 3
13:59	alexnixon	jkkramer: can you come up with (and perhaps add to the readme?) some examples showing why, for those specific cases, verily is preferable to clj-schema?
14:00	jkkramer	alexnixon: I would need to spend time learning clj-schema's api to do that
14:01	alexnixon	jkkramer: up to you, but I suspect that would be worthwhile
14:01	TimMc	mattmoss: You saw this? http://hypirion.com/musings/swearjure
14:04	pppaul	hey, i've been doing swearjure for a while
14:04	pppaul	i like it
14:04	magnars	Why do I have to do (vec (map ...)) to make sure I still work with vectors, and is there a better way?
14:04	technomancy	magnars: you can do mapv
14:05	magnars	technomancy: oh, that's great - thanks mate!
14:05	pppaul	hey technomancy i would like to get the values of my project configuration in my running problem. easy?
14:05	technomancy	but don't do that if you're just doing it to avoid laziness; it's sometimes abused for that
14:05	technomancy	pppaul: yeah, check out configleaf
14:05	pppaul	thanks
14:06	technomancy	pppaul: leiningen is designed to have no effect on the project at runtime, but the configleaf plugin gets you access to that
14:06	pppaul	cool
14:06	pppaul	i'll add it now
14:11	magnars	Any better way of doing `[~elem ~@list] than (into [elem] list) ? (cons elem list) makes me a seq instead of vector.
14:12	technomancy	magnars: into is reasonable there
14:12	magnars	thank you
14:12	technomancy	magnars: nice work on dash and friends btw; looking forward to trying them out next time I need to write some elisp
14:13	magnars	technomancy: thanks :-) scratching my own itch, glad it can be of use for others too!
14:14	technomancy	wish I had found it before I started nrepl.el =)
14:15	aaelony	is anyone here familiar with storm-starter? https://github.com/nathanmarz/storm-starter/blob/master/src/clj/storm/starter/clj/word_count.clj
14:16	magnars	technomancy: I'm using nrepl.el in a major-mode I've written, to communicate with a clojure app as a backend for the heavy lifting. I had a lot of fun doing that - and it was a joy to work with.
14:16	technomancy	cool
14:16	aaelony	the storm-starter word count basically uses rand-nth to choose from sentences it then consumes
14:16	technomancy	magnars: I haven't been following its development much since swank has been deprecated
14:17	aaelony	when I change rand-nth to next, it runs then bombs out
14:17	aaelony	a more apt use case is something that consumes something, rather than select a random line.
14:17	technomancy	aaelony: you shouldn't expect to be able to replace a call to rand-nth with next
14:18	technomancy	rand-nth returns a single element and next returns a seq
14:18	aaelony	what
14:18	aaelony	what is the
14:18	aaelony	best way to get the next element to hand off to nextTuple?
14:20	aaelony	perhaps some way to call first i guess… but unclear to me
14:23	aaelony	technomancy: that helps. Calling "first" works without bombing (even if it doesn't do anything useful). Next to is to see if some kind of first & rest thing will work. thanks...
14:25	danostrowski	hey all
14:28	knob	hey
14:28	knob	=)
14:28	technomancy	going to release leiningen 2.0.0-RC1 today; if you have any open issues that you'd like addressed please let me know
14:29	abp	technomancy, leiningen is great, but I don't think that's an issue.
14:40	TimMc	technomancy: sweeet
14:41	TimMc	Will we get a lein-newnew 0.3.6?
14:41	technomancy	oh, thanks for the reminder
14:42	TimMc	technomancy: Reminder: It's gonna break lein's tests.
14:44	technomancy	oh, we're on 0.3.6 on master already
14:47	technomancy	it's 0.3.7 we want
14:49	TimMc	Huh, OK. I don't see a 3.6 tag on lein-newnew's repo, by the way.
14:49	TimMc	$latest lein-newnew
14:49	lazybot	[lein-newnew "0.3.7"] -- https://clojars.org/lein-newnew
14:49	technomancy	thanks; tagged
14:51	wei_	is it possible to run cljs and clojure code in the same process? my goal is integration testing where I can run clojurescript and observe backend changes
14:55	TimMc	wei_: What do you mean by "in the same process"? CLJS runs on JS VMs, CLJ runs on the JVM.
14:55	technomancy	rhino/nashorn?
14:55	pjstadig	technomancy: jinx
14:55	aaelony	made a list of my storm-starter questions https://www.refheap.com/paste/8335. The storm-user irc channel is silent and likely doesn't use clojure so I am asking here. thanks in advance.
14:55	TimMc	Are you saying you want to launch a headless browser or something?
14:56	danostrowski	Hey all. So this is a really noobie question, but, what is Maven's relationship with Clojure? I am about to start learning Clojure and while I currently use Python, in past lives I've done Java. I remember Maven being particularly complicated and painful so I was glad to see that lein looked more like pip or easy install.
14:57	danostrowski	How much Maven will I have to know to get started writing a Clojure project? At least one of these "start here" things for IDEs I'm familiar with say to make a Maven project.
14:57	wei_	i guess the JS VM and the JVM don't have to be "the same process" as long as they can interact. I thought though that you could get a clojurescript repl from within a clojure repl
14:57	TimMc	danostrowski: You can use Maven when building/running Clojure, but almost everyone uses leiningen instead.
14:57	danostrowski	TimMc, that's exactly the answer I was hoping for. :)
14:57	TimMc	A lot of online guides are completely out in left field.
14:58	danostrowski	Right. OK. Cool. I think I'll give CCW a try. Not sure I'm committed enough for an Emacs excursion.
14:58	danostrowski	... yet anyhow.
14:58	TimMc	danostrowski: How about vim?
14:58	TimMc	There's some decent support there as well.
14:59	danostrowski	TimMc, I've used vim-clojure on our servers for editing Riemann scripts already.
14:59	danostrowski	Which is fine, but I find that now that I'm spoiled on IDEs, I like to have a lot more files open than I prefer to have open in Vim. I don't konw, there's something psychological about it I suppose. If CCW is not great, I will probably fire up vim-clojure.
15:00	TimMc	I last tried CCW like a year ago and didn't find the experience pleasant, but I hear that it has come a long ways.
15:02	TimMc	As long as it has syntax highlighting, identation support, and paredit (or similar), I'm happy.
15:02	TimMc	*indentation
15:02	danostrowski	TimMc, my experience is that the debugger is always better in a JetBrains project, but that Eclipse maybe has better paredit capabilities.
15:02	danostrowski	I may try La Clojure, too, since I use PyCharm every day and love it.
15:03	danostrowski	Of course, since I don't even know what paredit means really I may not miss it at first, haha.
15:04	amalloy	yeah, if you don't know what paredit is you won't miss it...but you'll be missing out, all the same
15:06	arcatan	does vim-clojure have a paredit-equivalent?
15:07	jlewis	yeah that's a paredit plugin, it's separate
15:10	arcatan	ah, okay
15:10	arcatan	paredit is the main reason i'm using emacs for clojure coding, while i usually use vim for everything else
15:11	bultje	arcatan: isn't there a paredit-a-like for vim?
15:11	jlewis	http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=3998
15:11	bultje	that one ;-)
15:12	arcatan	yeah. i have to try it out at some point.
15:12	jlewis	or https://github.com/vim-scripts/paredit.vim for the github happy
15:12	jlewis	i can vouch for its awesomeness.
15:12	bultje	jlewis: thanks, will try it out now...
15:12	bultje	came in here to check up on the whole clojure-vim combo status
15:13	bultje	and erm... dumdum on windows... :P
15:17	avidal	Is there a recommended jar for connecting to unix domain sockets in clojure? Preferably something that has a native clojure API, and perhaps supports both domain sockets and tcp/udp sockets?
15:19	avidal	i guess i can ignore unix domain sockets for now and use pocket from clojars
15:19	Bronsa	https://github.com/meh/clj-sockets this is being written
15:20	bultje	is there a 'sanctioned' method of connecting to nrepl via vim already?
15:20	bultje	or is that still wip?
15:22	brainproxy	avidal: there's also the aleph library, but I don't tihnk it supports domain sockets, only tcp/udp
15:22	brainproxy	also, http, websocket and some others
15:23	amalloy	aleph is based on netty, which doesn't support domain sockets
15:29	avidal	roger
15:29	avidal	i'll skip sockets for now anyway
15:29	weavejester	Has anyone heard of a "chunked readahead" function for consuming lazy seqs?
15:29	avidal	i'm new to clojure, trying to generate requests to an scgi socket which can be configured to listen on tcp or on a unix socket
15:29	weavejester	Something where it would read ahead N spaces
15:29	avidal	so i'll try to generate the actual request first
15:29	amalloy	weavejester: seque?
15:30	weavejester	amalloy: Ah, I've never used that one before
15:31	amalloy	weavejester: be aware that the version in clojure.core will leak a thread under some circumstances. if you're not on a 1.5 prerelease, you probably want to use useful's seque*
15:34	weavejester	amalloy: I'm spawning off a bunch of threads anyway, so… it might be okay
15:35	amalloy	weavejester: i mean, each time you call seque, it leaks a new thread (or can, depending on race conditions based on how you consume from it). if you only call seque once, that's fine; but we had a powerhouse of a machine grind to a halt after leaking thousands of threads
15:35	weavejester	amalloy: Ohhhh. That's worse.
15:35	weavejester	amalloy: So where's this seque*?
15:36	amalloy	weavejester: https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/seq.clj#L322
15:38	arrdem	someone said that there's a vimclojure replacement?
15:39	weavejester	amalloy: Awesome, thank you
15:40	amalloy	you're welcome! that's the functionality you meant by chunked readahead, then, i hope?
15:42	bosie	is there a loop function that i can use which produces no output/end result?
15:44	bosie	https://gist.github.com/4505549
15:44	bosie	problem is the output in line 7
15:48	mmitchell	is there a function like select-keys but for vectors? something like select-indices?
15:51	amalloy	it couldn't efficiently return a vector, mmitchell
15:51	jkkramer	,(map [:a :b :c :d] [1 2 0]) ;mmitchel
15:51	clojurebot	(:b :c :a)
15:51	jkkramer	,(mapv [:a :b :c :d] [1 2 0])
15:51	clojurebot	[:b :c :a]
15:51	mmitchell	interesting!
15:51	mmitchell	thanks!
15:54	TimMc	bosie: Every Clojure expression has a return value.
15:54	bosie	TimMc: hm
15:54	daydreamt	bosie:If it's the printing that troubles you, you only get the end result because of the repl. If you were to compile and run the program, the last line wouldn't be printed.
15:55	bosie	daydreamt: but wouldn't i feed it regardless?
15:55	bosie	daydreamt: if i want a generic output function that prints every Nth iteration
15:56	TimMc	bosie: The problem is that you are in a REPL, which will print the return value.
15:56	bosie	daydreamt: i could wrap it in reduce (as i did) but then reduce itself has a return value
15:56	TimMc	Try (do (reduce ...) "ignore me!")
15:56	bosie	TimMc: k
15:57	TimMc	If you have an application, the only time this will be relevant is in your -main function, where you can return nil.
15:57	TimMc	*where returning nil doesn't result in printing.
15:58	bosie	hm
15:59	bosie	https://gist.github.com/8e6ad0c6087af8cd6dd7
16:00	TimMc	Well, sure.
16:00	bosie	the output is there
16:01	TimMc	map doesn't operate on STDOUT, it operates on values you pass to it
16:01	TimMc	You're throwing away the 0, 2, and 4 after printing them.
16:03	bosie	but map doesn't let me "sum up" a counter like i do with reduce?
16:04	bosie	oh
16:04	mefisto`	this is strange... I'm in emacs, and fire up nrepl, and any time I try to do anything, an empty nrepl-error buffer appears
16:04	bosie	hm
16:04	bosie	i could use iterate and pass it into map i guess
16:05	arrdem	in ring if I want to use $PROJ_ROOT/resources/public/$PATH for my static files I just use (route/resources "resources/public"), right?
16:05	bosie	thanks TimMc
16:06	amalloy	(resources "/"), i think. might be "/public", but i don't thinks o
16:06	weavejester	arrdem: No, (resources "/"), because "/" is the path
16:07	weavejester	arrdem: The default root is public, e.g. (resources "/" {:root "public"})
16:07	mefisto`	never mind, figured it out
16:08	TimMc	mefisto`: What was it?
16:08	arrdem	weavejester: thanks
16:11	mefisto`	TimMc: misspelled :use in my ns declaration. The error message went to Messages only, and nrepl-error was empty, oddly enough
16:12	arrdem	woohoo! weavejester is there a reason that I had to do route/resources _first_ and _then_ my routes?
16:13	weavejester	arrdem: The routes are matched in order, so route/resources should probably be after your other routes.
16:13	weavejester	arrdem: But it shouldn't really matter, because ideally you won't have a resource named the same as a route.
16:14	arrdem	weavejester: right.... if I define a "/" page and have resources on "/" won't that bug it?
16:14	weavejester	arrdem: No, because "/" is just the prefix.
16:15	weavejester	arrdem: For instance, let's say you have a file "resource/public/foo.html"
16:15	arrdem	mmkay cool! thanks for the help, I'm learning to subsist w/o Noir atm
16:15	weavejester	arrdem: Since the "resources" directory is on the classpath, that means you have a "public/foo.html
16:15	weavejester	resource
16:15	TimMc	mefisto`: THanks. I'm filing that away for when I next try to use nrepl in Emacs.
16:16	weavejester	So (route/resoures "/static" {:root "public"}) would give you a "static/foo.html" route
16:16	weavejester	(route/resources "/" {:root "public"}) would give you a "/foo.html" route
16:16	weavejester	And since the default root is "public", you can just write (route/resources "/")
16:21	devinus	are there any other advanced clojure books like JoC?
16:23	AimHere	Maybe not clojure, but you could try pinching ideas from other lisp books, like On Lisp
16:26	yogthos	arrdem: btw, I'm trying to fill the Noir niche with Luminus http://www.luminusweb.net/
16:27	arrdem	yogthos: oh yeah didn't you mention that you were doing a post-noir CMS a while back?
16:27	yogthos	arrdem: yeah, it's been moving along steadily :)
16:27	yogthos	arrdem: unlike noir though, I'm not adding any new ways to define routes, so once you create the project from the template it's just plain compojure
16:28	arrdem	that seems to be the only thing that noir really added that lib-noir doesn't encompas
16:28	arrdem	sp?
16:28	clojurebot	Lisp isn't a language, it's a building material.
16:28	yogthos	arrdem: main goal is to provide good defaults via the template
16:29	yogthos	arrdem: I'm putting all the functionality into lib-noir, which has some updates already
16:32	arrdem	yogthos: very cool, will definitely check it out when I start my next web project I think I'm past the "find sane defaults" step on the current one XP
16:32	yogthos	arrdem: haha sure thing, it'll get more polish by then too :)
16:42	zepard	hey
16:53	mattmoss	$findfn 1 2 5
16:53	lazybot	[clojure.core/bit-set clojure.core/bit-flip]
16:54	aaelony	in my quest to learn Storm, came across this gem: (defmacro dofor [& body] `(doall (for ~@body))) Now that's something I've needed for some time!!
16:55	technomancy	aaelony: you don't need that
16:56	aaelony	technomancy: it's pretty common to get unrealized lazy seqs that I actually do need
16:56	technomancy	then you should call doall on them
16:57	aaelony	I do, but it's annoying
16:57	loganlinn	so you call dofor instead?
16:57	technomancy	not as annoying as creating a macro for a single call composition
16:57	aaelony	haha, maybe
16:58	aaelony	just looking through this… https://github.com/nathanmarz/storm/blob/master/src/clj/backtype/storm/util.clj
16:59	aaelony	line 294
16:59	technomancy	gross =(
17:00	aaelony	haha
17:00	technomancy	there are a lot of things wrong with that file; not sure where to begin
17:00	technomancy	seriously though, don't write a macro for something so trivial
17:01	aaelony	actually, though I understand macros, I haven't yet needed to write one.
17:01	aaelony	but I need to use doall almost every time i need for
17:01	gtrak	I thought I understood macros until I wrote a few
17:02	amalloy	then you're not using for very well. having to doall them is very rare
17:02	aaelony	fine
17:02	technomancy	if you need doall a lot then you should probably re-examine your use of dynamic scope
17:02	nDuff	...that, or you're using for in a place where you should be using doseq
17:02	aaelony	the use case is typically a large data structure with many nested levels
17:02	amalloy	i hate that storm util file too, personally, but i can't really object to its having been written; the whole point of util files is to capture patterns for personal use. so it's a great util file for whoever wrote it (nathan?) but shouldn't be stolen from
17:03	technomancy	amalloy: bare use and trailing parens though
17:03	ibdknox	it's old
17:04	ibdknox	the vendetta against bare use wasn't a thing until about 8-9 months ago
17:04	hiredman	that is not true
17:04	amalloy	ibdknox: that's not true at all
17:04	technomancy	bare use has always been bad form
17:04	ivan	it's obviously bad in other languages
17:04	amalloy	and the file is only a year old; it's not like nathan was just learning clojure
17:05	ibdknox	virtually every piece of code I looked at in clojure land a year ago had uses in it
17:05	ibdknox	including stuff from core
17:05	ibdknox	so
17:05	technomancy	the change is that all use calls are now discouraged
17:05	hiredman	ibdknox: yes, that just means they are all behind #clojure
17:06	ibdknox	hiredman: sure, my point was more generally that isn't surprising that there's still lots of code out there with them in it :)
17:06	amalloy	nothing was wrong with use; use-without-only was the problem
17:06	ibdknox	and I don't think you can fault the code writers for it, since the greater body of Clojure work used them
17:06	aaelony	look what I've started ...
17:06	yogthos	I find use to only be really offensive when referencing code within the project
17:07	amalloy	i think the :use's in that file are a pretty small portion of the problem
17:08	aaelony	is the problem that it's inelegant? or done for speed?
17:08	ibdknox	amalloy: technomancy: hiredman: to be clear, I'm firmly against bare use as well - just don't think you can get upset with people over it given the history
17:08	technomancy	amalloy: I was starting at the top and working my way down =)
17:08	technomancy	ibdknox: just saying it's not a good example to crib from. I don't have the context to make a value judgment beyond that.
17:09	hiredman	ibdknox: that implies a sort of "no one was ever fired for buying ibm" mentality towards coding practices
17:09	amalloy	most of it is in fact already cribbed from old-contrib
17:09	hiredman	"you can't say this code is bad, because it does the same thing all the other code does"
17:10	systemfault	I'm reading joy of clojure at the moment, I'm at the beginning (Quoting) and it's saying that quote is more used than ' , is that true?
17:11	amalloy	i doubt it
17:12	mpan	is it the case that clojure applets in general need to run as signed?
17:12	hiredman	heh 2009:Jun:08:07:32:16 drewr : Ugh. I'm seeing more and more :use without :only. We need a PEP 8 for Clojure.
17:12	yogthos	don't people generally prefer to use vectors to lists?
17:12	ibdknox	hiredman: conventions aren't always determined by the few, in this case whatever prevails in common use is what becomes convention to new people. Which in this case happens to be unfortunate
17:13	ibdknox	lol too many "in this cases" in there
17:15	ibdknox	do we have a good place to learn best practice for Clojure? (books aside)
17:15	ibdknox	a tiny percent of the population will ever visit #clojure
17:16	yogthos	somebody started this https://github.com/bbatsov/clojure-style-guide
17:16	hiredman	https://github.com/bbatsov/clojure-style-guide/pull/31
17:17	aaelony	ibdknox: this started for me because i need to understand storm-starter well enough to apply it to any input source. https://www.refheap.com/paste/8335 that got me having to start source diving...
17:17	ibdknox	hiredman: haha
17:17	pjstadig	is it pragmatic to have a bare use or not?
17:17	yogthos	lol
17:17	arrdem	the consensus seems to be not...
17:17	hiredman	bbatsov has a bunch of "style guide" repos for a number of different languages
17:17	technomancy	pjstadig: it's nice and short to type in the repl
17:18	amalloy	systemfault: you misread that sentence
17:19	amalloy	"In other Lisps, this need is so common that they provide a shortcut: a single quote. Although it’s used less in Clojure, it’s still provided." - quoting is less common in clojure than in other lisps, but ' is still provided
17:19	hiredman	I can't say I recognize him as any kind of style authority
17:19	systemfault	amalloy: Ahh, my bad.
17:20	yogthos	amalloy: would that be related to the fact that Clojure has a literal notation for vectors?
17:20	technomancy	hiredman: maybe if he submitted a pull request to https://github.com/PharkMillups/thought-leaders
17:20	hiredman	yes
17:20	hiredman	only if he makes the thought-leaders list
17:20	loganlinn	lol
17:22	amalloy	beats me, yogthos. i'm just explaining what fogus/chouser meant, not agreeing or justifying
17:23	pjstadig	i think that's what it means
17:23	pjstadig	in clojure you usually just quote symbols
17:23	pjstadig	in other lisp you're often quoting lists of data
17:24	pjstadig	there's more data as data forms in clojure, so there's not the need to "escape evaluation to make some data"
17:24	AimHere	Also, don't other lisps use quoted symbols where clojure uses keywords?
17:24	arrdem	many do...
17:24	yogthos	amalloy: I find I practically always use vectors unless I have a specific reason to use a list, which isn't often
17:25	pjstadig	right many cases where you might use a quoted symbol you go for the keyword instead
17:25	pjstadig	so it becomes pretty rare to have quote things
17:25	yogthos	pjstadig: mostly in macros :)
17:25	AimHere	Or maybe the repl
17:31	pjstadig	technomancy: it seems the thought leaders list is missing "Mark Phillips: thought leaders"
17:31	pjstadig	should have been the first one :(
17:32	bpr	technomancy: is there any chance that the lein-otf will get folded into leiningen as default behavior?
17:32	technomancy	pjstadig: there's a pull request for that
17:32	pjstadig	ah
17:32	technomancy	bpr: probably not since AOT is typically a good idea when creating distributables for purposes of error-catching and startup time
17:33	bpr	technomancy: ah. ok thanks
17:36	bpr	i'm not fully up to speed with how profiles work, but can my dev profile attach a ^:skip-aot to my :main class while my :release profile doesn't?
17:36	technomancy	bpr: in the latest version of leiningen having :main does not trigger AOT
17:36	TimMc	nice
17:36	technomancy	so you could have :aot 'all in the base
17:37	technomancy	and then put :aot ^:replace [] in the dev profile I think?
17:37	technomancy	hm; is that what you meant by lein-otf behaviour as default?
17:37	arrdem	weavejester: is there a "best practice" to structuring your route definitions?
17:37	technomancy	it's not quite the same as it doesn't provide its own gen-class'd :main
17:37	TimMc	technomancy: Do yopu advocate AOT for libs?
17:37	technomancy	but you can always use clojure.core -m whatevs.main
17:37	bpr	not exactly, but that does what I'm looking for too
17:37	technomancy	TimMc: not if there's any way around it
17:38	TimMc	OK, just checking. "distributables" has an ambiguous target.
17:38	technomancy	ah yeah, should have said end-user distributables
17:53	Fare	hi
17:56	cemerick	Fare: hi :-)
17:56	TimMc	Fare!
17:57	cemerick	in #clojure, even ;-)
18:00	amalloy	lamina gets really sad if you plug a channel back into itself
18:00	Fare	I'm now on the ALU board, and I'm trying to widen its scope.
18:00	mattmoss	Am I being stupid and missing some builtin that effectively does this?: (if (nil? x) [] (if (coll? x) (vec x) [x])))
18:00	ne1_1	<technomancy> bpr: in the latest version of leiningen having :main does not trigger AOT - sounds great, not AOTing speeds things up a lot for me
18:01	Fare	I know that things didn't end nicely when Rich Hickey left the board a few years back -- but water has passed under the bridges since.
18:01	ian_	noob here. I'm using a (for) to iterate over a vector. Is it possible to get the index? e.g. 0 for the first element, 1 for the second, and so on. Or maybe there's some type of zip operation? What is the idiomatic way to do this? (FWIW, i'm storing all the elements in a DB and need to store the position.)
18:01	S11001001	&(doc map-indexed)
18:01	lazybot	⇒ "([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to 0 and the first item of coll, followed by applying f to 1 and the second item in coll, etc, until coll is exhausted. Thus function f should accept 2 arguments, index and item."
18:01	S11001001	^^ ian_
18:02	bbloom	mattmoss: there isn't a native coll-ify or vec-ify sort of wrapper like that. every time i've wanted one, i find out later that i didn't want it :-P but that said, take a look at ##(doc fnil) which should help a bit
18:02	lazybot	⇒ "([f x] [f x y] [f x y z]); Takes a function f, and returns a function that calls f, replacing a nil first argument to f with the supplied value x. Higher arity versions can replace arguments in the second and third positions (y, z). Note that the function f can... https://www.refheap.com/paste/8352
18:02	arohner	is there a way to "apply" core.logic constraints? I want to take a seq of constraints as arguments to a fn, and apply them in a run*
18:02	ian_	S11001001: Thanks
18:03	S11001001	Fare: going to boston-clojure tonight?
18:03	bbloom	mattmoss: i guess the reason it doesn't exist is because there are two variables: what test to use and what collection to create. you'd need the cross product of seq? coll? vector? X list vec etc
18:03	mattmoss	bbloom: Thanks, I'll check fnil again, see if it fits in nicely. Basically, my multi-select form will return nil, a single string, or a vector of strings depending on what the user selected.
18:03	bbloom	oh add to that sequential?
18:04	TimMc	What's ALU, besides a CPU component?
18:04	Fare	S11001001, oh -- what / where / when -- lemme check the web
18:04	S11001001	Fare: akamai, 8 cambridge center (near kendall), 6:30
18:04	TimMc	Oh right, I was about to head over to Basho.
18:04	S11001001	heh
18:04	mattmoss	Which I then need to have a vector (or some sequential) before passing it on into library code.
18:05	Fare	http://www.meetup.com/Boston-Clojure-Group/events/95400612/
18:05	Fare	I might be a bit late.
18:07	cemerick	TimMc: Association of Lisp Users, IIRC
18:20	clizzin	i've got a compojure app that is intended to respond to most requests with json, so i'm using the wrap-json-response middleware from ring-json. however, there is one route that i want to return plain text. i'm imagining that i need to merge two sets of routes, but one of those sets of routes needs some middleware attached to it first. how can i do that?
18:20	ian_	Um... I got map-indexed going, but it's not doing anything. I'm guessing this is because it's a lazy seq. How can I force this to run?
18:21	gtrak	ian_: dorun doall doseq depending on what you want
18:22	ian_	gtrak: Thanks!
18:23	gtrak	you should try to avoid needing to care about that though, if there are side effects you should postpone them until transformations are finished
18:23	weavejester	clizzin: You can attach middleware to whatever set of routes you like
18:23	callen	technomancy: goddamn you, I'm writing CSS and keep typing lein-height
18:23	weavejester	clizzin: A route is just a Ring handler
18:23	Raynes	callen: Hahahahaha. I do that. All the time.
18:23	gtrak	lein height plugin
18:24	xeqi	clizzin: (defroutes app (-> json-routes wrap-json-response) plain-text-routes) I think
18:24	callen	Raynes: the CSS is scorching my brain.
18:24	callen	Raynes: none of it makes any sense.
18:24	callen	I clearly need to just sit down and read the spec end to end.
18:24	systemfault	callen: It won't help you that much..
18:25	callen	systemfault: haha, you were in #css right?
18:25	systemfault	callen: Yeah.
18:25	clizzin	weavejester: xeqi: ah, great, i think i just forgot that i needed to wrap all the routes in one of the compojure handler wrapper fns. as a result, my plain-text-routes weren't being handled properly
18:25	ian_	gtrak: I think I understand. I'm inserting into a DB. That's pure side-effect, so I have to force it.
18:26	gtrak	ian_: yea, I'm guessing you're mapping the side effect over the result of map-indexed?
18:26	callen	systemfault: we are forever cursed re: CSS?
18:26	callen	there'
18:26	callen	there's no deeper understanding? it'll always be batshit?
18:26	systemfault	callen: We should be fine in about 5 years...
18:27	gtrak	ian_: not sure if there's a better way, but I would always hope to avoid explicitly forcing stuff
18:27	gtrak	isn't the entire web stack batshit?
18:27	systemfault	callen: We'll have a logical box model.. real columns.. real typography support.. etc
18:28	systemfault	gtrak: I'm a fan of the simplicity of the HTTP protocol
18:28	gtrak	yea, http doesn't bother me too much, though implementation caveats wrt browsers are pretty heinous
18:29	gtrak	ie, use POST
18:29	weavejester	systemfault: HTTP is kinda a bit weird too, but all protocols from that era are.
18:29	systemfault	I'm the kind of guy who touches himself while thinking a REST/HATEOAS/Hypermedia APIs
18:29	weavejester	Nowadays we'd write a protocol to pass around basic data types, like bencode
18:30	systemfault	s/a/of
18:30	weavejester	But older protocols seem to be designed to be human readable over a TCP stream
18:30	callen	HATEOAS is fascism.
18:31	gtrak	systemfault: I don't know about the latter 2, but I think if I did I'd still say that's unfortunate
18:31	systemfault	callen: how?
18:31	callen	and based on a religion of similar provenance to the Christians.
18:31	callen	systemfault: it's all based on one little thing a dude wrote
18:31	weavejester	I like the idea of REST, but Rich argued me round to his point of view regarding things like URLs.
18:31	callen	systemfault: they took it too far.
18:31	callen	weavejester: what's his point of view WRT URLs?
18:31	systemfault	callen: That dude is one of the creators of the HTTP protocol, not some weird unknown dude
18:32	Raynes	callen: Careful now, you'll summon pitchforks.
18:32	Raynes	callen: Also, you should listen to Somebody Told Me by The Killers.
18:33	systemfault	Hmm...
18:33	gtrak	I'm not sure what's so special about the web that makes call stacks an unsuitable abstraction.
18:33	systemfault	Did your boyfriend looks like a girlfriend I had back in february of last year?
18:33	callen	Raynes: firing it up right now.
18:33	weavejester	callen: That there should be some way of telling the difference between a "value" URL and a "reference" URL.
18:34	weavejester	brb
18:34	Raynes	callen: I think you're the only person who consistently listens to music I tell him to listen to, and you listen to nearly the exact opposite of what I do.
18:34	weavejester	or maybe bbl :)
18:34	Raynes	You're fascinating.
18:34	technomancy	http://wondermark.com/282/
18:34	callen	Raynes: I am an excellent discriminant of advice.
18:35	callen	my CSS classes are all in lolcat today.
18:36	systemfault	I'm surprised we got so far with CSS...
18:38	gtrak	I don't know, I'd say the web was doomed to fail if it wasn't a natural monopoly.
18:40	systemfault	How difficult is it to run a clojure(servlet?!) web application?
18:40	gtrak	systemfault: super easy
18:40	gtrak	pick a level of abstraction
18:40	systemfault	Is it "fast enough"? Do I require a server with a lot of resources(mainly ram?)
18:40	gtrak	it's better than spring, probably
18:40	systemfault	Ah, nice
18:42	gtrak	there's no pervasive runtime overhead, except just the number of classes
18:42	gtrak	lein-ring is the easiest way to do it right now
18:42	systemfault	Is that something like compojure? (I'm still at the "Learning the language" level)
18:42	gtrak	if you want to code-gen your own servlet, that's also pretty trivial
18:42	amalloy	systemfault: 4clojure.com runs with a 60MB heap. resident set size is 126MB at the moment
18:43	gtrak	lein-ring is a leiningen plugin, compojure is a bunch of functions and macros that you use as a library
18:43	callen	Raynes: Killers is one of those bands I don't listen too often, but am happy when I remember when they exist. Good timing on the song.
18:43	amalloy	could probably squeeze out another 30MB or so if it were necessary, but not a lot more
18:43	systemfault	amalloy: Looks acceptable to me, no permgen space errors or things like that?
18:44	Raynes	callen: :D
18:44	amalloy	welllll, it's hard to say because 4clojure is somewhat unusual: its purpose is to run unsafe user-submitted code
18:44	amalloy	there are problems pretty frequently where someone accidentally realizes an infinite seq
18:45	gtrak	systemfault: you can see how the integration is done here: https://github.com/rmarianski/ring-jetty-servlet-adapter/blob/master/src/ring/adapter/jetty_servlet.clj
18:45	jkkramer	if you use a servlet container like tomcat, there's a bug which can cause permgen errors
18:45	systemfault	Ah! It embeds a jetty server
18:45	gtrak	lein-ring can also do a WAR
18:46	Raynes	callen: This is the first song I've ever listened to by them.
18:46	Raynes	Or at least the first that stood out to me.
18:46	Raynes	The chorus is brilliant.
18:46	Raynes	systemfault: Permgen is set separately from heap space.
18:46	Raynes	We mainly just limit the heap.
18:47	gtrak	systemfault: here's the other piece of the puzzle: https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-servlet/src/ring/util/servlet.clj
18:48	systemfault	Thank you :)
18:48	gtrak	but unfortunately, if you have a more complicated need, like multiple servlets or filters, you're on your own and should do your own code-gen.
18:48	gtrak	the abstraction doesn't account for that
18:48	systemfault	I'll start with something simple, I still have a ton of things to learn.
18:49	Raynes	systemfault: The most important thing when writing a Clojure web app is using laser.
18:49	systemfault	What's laser?
18:50	Raynes	A perpetual infomercial.
18:50	Raynes	https://github.com/Raynes/laser
18:50	systemfault	Hmm, html templating
18:51	ivan	if someone grepped everything in clojars for hiccup I'm sure there would be many exciting XSS holes
18:52	systemfault	I'm not of fan of describing a document using code but I'll still take a look at Laser once I'll start working on my website.
18:52	gtrak	does laser sanitize user input?
18:52	callen	systemfault: I ended up switching to hiccup from stencil. I just hate mustache too much even if dsantiago's work is good.
18:52	Raynes	systemfault: What do you mean? You write HTML in HTML.
18:52	Raynes	gtrak: Yes.
18:52	callen	systemfault: I want django/jinja templates in Clojure.
18:53	Raynes	gtrak: Well, hickory does, which laser uses, so it's all good.
18:53	gtrak	well... I definitely need to use that, then!
18:53	Raynes	gtrak: Any strings you put into your HTML are escaped on the way out. If you want to insert HTML anywhere, you have to parse it from a string and insert the nodes.
18:53	gtrak	neat
18:54	Raynes	Because I prefer people not do (html-content "<a>somecrap</a>") and instead do something like (laser/node :a :content "somecrap").
18:54	Raynes	yogthos: Mornin' beautiful.
18:55	systemfault	Raynes: Can a selector be more complex?
18:55	gtrak	ah, I haven't done enough html to feel like "<a>somecrap</a>" is better to write, but I could see experienced people wanting to do that.
18:55	Raynes	systemfault: A selector can be as complex as you want it to be.
18:55	gtrak	Raynes: is it fast, though?
18:56	Raynes	gtrak: Is laser fast?
18:56	gtrak	yea
18:56	systemfault	Raynes: How would I select the second row of some table for example?
18:57	gtrak	one nice thing about hiccup is I can just eval a template at compile-time and include the emitted string
18:57	callen	Raynes: I GAT SOUL BUT I'M NOT A SOULJAH
18:57	gtrak	though I don't know if that makes sense at scale
18:57	Raynes	It doesn't seem to be slow. I used the same benchmarks tinsel uses and it appears to be about as fast as enlive is for those.
18:57	callen	but enlive is slow.
18:59	Raynes	systemfault: I don't have any built in select-nth sorts of things yet, but you can write a selector to do it. I think the selector would be sort of like child-of. It would answer: am I a child of a table? If so, do I have one sibling to the left of me?
18:59	systemfault	Ah ok
18:59	Raynes	It's definitely possible. Not even hard, really.
18:59	Raynes	I just haven't written anything to do it in a general case yet.
19:00	Raynes	gtrak: Well, you can do that sort of thing in laser too. (def foo (my-template args)), etc.
19:00	Raynes	I think Enlive does some sort of caching too.
19:00	hiredman	/win 11
19:00	Raynes	Laser can probably do that.
19:01	Raynes	But even if laser didn't you could probably easily wrap caching around it.
19:01	Raynes	It's all pretty flexible.
19:01	gtrak	yea, I think there's probably an optimization in stringbuilder for strings, if you're escaping everything you might take a hit.
19:02	Raynes	hickory's escape stuff uses a stringbuilder.
19:02	Raynes	The to-html function isn't particularly efficient though. Hoping to improve that soon.
19:02	gtrak	right, I just mean the java code might not have to go character-by-character necessarily, if escaping, it definitely has to
19:03	gtrak	just my speculation
19:04	muhoo	hiredman: isn't that supposed to be win \o/ ?
19:05	gtrak	Raynes: just verified, it uses arraycopy to do the work, so I should be right, unless it's not significant.
19:06	gtrak	arraycopy is necessarily better than what you get if you check every character
19:06	callen	weavejester: in what respect can a URL refer a value or a reference?
19:06	callen	weavejester: they are by definition all references. They're URLs.
19:08	devn	typical evening surfing clojure github repos: find yet another Raynes repo (fs)
19:08	Raynes	lol
19:09	devn	i like this.
19:10	gtrak	so if there's a way to box up a string and mark it as safe, it might be beneficial
19:11	gtrak	whitelist instead of blacklist (having to manually escape everything)
19:13	devn	Raynes: one thing about laser i noticed that isn't that big of a deal, but was a little awkward IMO was (l/and (l/element= :div) (l/class= "foo")) -- :div and "foo", keyword and string, seemed like maybe it would be better to just have the opinion that in every place you can expect to use a kw
19:14	Raynes	devn: I didn't give it much though, but that seems fair. I can just call name on the input.
19:14	devn	it could also just as well be a string everywhere
19:14	Raynes	I did it that way because that's the actual internal representation (that I did not come up with).
19:14	Raynes	Tags are keywords, attributes are strings.
19:15	Raynes	But there isn't anything wrong with doing (name ..)
19:15	weavejester	callen: A URL can point to a resource that never changes
19:15	weavejester	callen: Effectively a value.
19:15	devn	Raynes: what do you think about saying everything is a string?
19:15	gtrak	devn: no!
19:15	Raynes	I think I'd prefer to just work with keywords.
19:16	Raynes	With the the option of strings.
19:16	devn	i can imagine someone doing something clever where they want to prepend something to every class they're adding in a template
19:16	callen	weavejester: it's an ontology created from a distinction that is trivial.
19:16	callen	weavejester: that is exceptionally weird.
19:16	Raynes	The internal representation will still be strings, devn.
19:16	callen	weavejester: you should write a templating library.
19:16	gtrak	string literals are not used for semantics in clojure, keywords are
19:16	weavejester	callen: A templating library?
19:16	Raynes	All I'm proposing is letting them pass keywords to functions like class= and what not.
19:17	callen	weavejester: yeah, for templating HTML. for web apps.
19:17	weavejester	callen: Like Hiccup?
19:17	weavejester	callen: Or Comb, my Erb clone?
19:17	callen	weavejester: you mean CL-WHO's Revenge?
19:17	devn	(str "prefix-" thingy) vs (str "thingy" (name :thingy))
19:17	callen	wait, Comb. need to see this.
19:17	devn	Raynes: yeah i like the "either one works" idea
19:18	Raynes	It can be as consistent as people want it to be in that case.
19:18	weavejester	callen: https://github.com/weavejester/comb
19:18	devn	Raynes: double agree. like it.
19:18	weavejester	It's basically just Erb
19:18	callen	weavejester: yeah looking at it. intriguing. just wish it had extends/include.
19:18	ibdknox	callen: I've sent you comb multiple times :p haha
19:18	devn	i go looking for new templating libs in clojure maybe once a month
19:19	Raynes	ibdknox: How are things?
19:19	callen	ibdknox: I ended up looking at a few that are analogous to comb.
19:19	callen	devn: have you found any that don't make you piss blood?
19:19	Raynes	ibdknox: Are you going to move to LA so we can go out?
19:19	callen	I suffice with Hiccup, but meh
19:19	ibdknox	Raynes: haha, I don't think I'll be moving in the near future :p
19:19	callen	Raynes: he's in the bay area. this place is a black hole.
19:19	callen	IIRC, anyway.
19:19	ibdknox	Raynes: I did, however, get JS eval working last night...
19:20	technomancy	what if recompiling an ns form after adding :refer-clojure :exclude could unmap it for you?
19:20	ibdknox	0.3.0 is going to be a bigger release than I thought :)
19:20	Raynes	ibdknox: Haskell and Python or gtfo.
19:20	ibdknox	lol
19:20	weavejester	There are a few mustache libs around
19:20	weavejester	Like Stencil: https://github.com/davidsantiago/stencil
19:20	devn	callen: of all of them hiccup has been my go to, but i mean, here's the rub: I like views being more like functions than something like erb
19:20	ibdknox	Raynes: so picky :p
19:20	Raynes	ibdknox: Also, paredit.
19:20	devn	which is why laser is appealing (and enlive before it)
19:21	gtrak	ibdknox: I played around with the new version of light-table, is it ready for folks look at source and try to extend and such yet?
19:21	ibdknox	Raynes: I think that may be on its way
19:21	devn	although i think i like the simplicity of laser right now
19:21	callen	weavejester: I love stencil's underpinnings but hate mustache.
19:21	Raynes	ibdknox: Someone working on an efficient version?
19:21	ibdknox	gtrak: not yet, that'll be part of the beta that goes to the KS people
19:21	callen	weavejester: I want django/jinja templates. If I'm really lucky, that hybridized with comb.
19:21	ibdknox	Raynes: yep, talked to someone who wants to help out
19:21	gtrak	ibdknox: ah, I don't remember if I'm that high on the KS
19:22	devn	callen: i think after all of this time staring at different templating thingies, i wind up thinking enlive, laser, or hiccup make the most sense to me
19:22	gtrak	ibdknox: ah, guess not :-)
19:22	devn	i dont like littering the filesystem and eval'ing in the context of a thingy
19:23	callen	devn: I like being productive.
19:23	devn	callen: so why ever learn anything new?
19:24	callen	devn: sometimes new things are more productive.
19:24	Raynes	technomancy: You're a proponent of ex-info right?
19:24	devn	callen: but they have an initial opportunity cost sometimes
19:24	devn	it's like learning a lisp
19:24	devn	enlive was like that for me, it was a different way of thinking about templates for me
19:25	callen	devn: you're misunderstanding me, taking that misunderstanding, lighting it on fire, and then complaining about burnt hands. hold on.
19:25	Raynes	lol
19:25	devn	bahaha
19:25	callen	devn: I said new things are more productive sometimes. That includes the cost of learning the new thing. That's fine.
19:25	technomancy	Raynes: always have been; always will be
19:25	Raynes	technomancy: How does it work?
19:26	callen	devn: I'm saying that hiccup/enlive/stencil are categorically inferior to some alternatives that I currently use and it pains my soul that it prevents Clojure being a "practical" choice for me.
19:26	Raynes	technomancy: Like, I want to throw a nice exception. That's what this is for, right?
19:26	devn	callen: i think we probably are dancing around some sort of violent agreement.
19:26	technomancy	Raynes: (throw (ex-info "ex-info needs explaining" {:explainer "technomancy" :explainee "Raynes"}))
19:26	Raynes	technomancy: Sounds excellent.
19:27	technomancy	it really is
19:27	devn	callen: i hate to be "that open source guy" but, if there's a templating language that's better, why not port it to clojure?
19:27	technomancy	Raynes: if you use slingshot, you can destructure ex-infos <3
19:29	cemerick	callen: enlive is slow? o.O
19:29	devn	cemerick: he's right i think
19:29	devn	:X
19:30	devn	wait, before you respond
19:30	devn	i retract that because i have no idea
19:30	cemerick	it'd be interesting to see numbers
19:30	cemerick	I know cgrand spent a ton of time optimizing it shrug
19:30	ibdknox	someone benchmarked all the common libs a while back
19:30	callen	cemerick: I don't hold myself accountable to the fascism of numericism.
19:30	ibdknox	and enlive was quite a bit slower
19:30	callen	ibdknox: stop proving me right.
19:30	ibdknox	now whether or not that has any practical implication...
19:30	Raynes	cemerick: dsantiago has some benchmarks on his tinsel page, and I have some on laser's page. Laser and Enlive are the slowest templating engines in Clojure.
19:30	devn	yeah, i'd be interested to see that -- all i'm basing that on is ancedotal evidence from dealing with some particularly messy DOMs
19:31	callen	devn: wanna know how slow enlive is?
19:32	devn	HOW SLOW IS IT?
19:32	callen	devn: REAL DAMN SLOW BRO!
19:33	callen	ibdknox: the practical implications are obvious. It's a templating library for quiche-eaters.
19:33	devn	aw, i was hoping for a "it's so slow, that the chariots of fire theme song plays every time you render a template"
19:33	callen	devn: clearly you have more panache for this.
19:34	devn	callen: quiches aren't easy to make
19:34	gtrak	callen: are you blaming the french?
19:34	callen	gtrak: dude. you seriously don't know this famous bit of hacker lore?
19:35	devn	dude, i don't know it either.
19:35	gtrak	ah, no! too young.
19:35	gtrak	I will learn it
19:35	callen	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Programmers_Don't_Use_Pascal
19:36	callen	gtrak: I'm not old :\|
19:36	devn	http://www.th-soft.com/zzJargon/
19:37	wei_	re: a previous question, is it possible to drive cljs and clojure with the same code? goal is to write an integration test that manipulates a javascript widget and then looks in the database to observe changes
19:37	devn	wei_: i think that's what crossover is about???
19:37	lazybot	devn: Oh, absolutely.
19:37	ivan	can't be slower than that old version of Genshi
19:38	callen	ivan: you are from the land of snakes...what do you use for templating?
19:39	ivan	I use jinja2 in my Python programs but for Clojure want a fixed hiccup that escapes everything
19:39	callen	ivan: sigh, I use jinja2 in Python.
19:39	ivan	I might change my mind if s-exps for HTML turn out to be problematic
19:40	ivan	but I find this unlikely
19:41	wei_	devn: thanks, just read that. seems like crossovers are for sharing code between cljs and clojure compilers. but, is it possible to run cljs code, and then clj code within a single test?
19:41	ivan	sure, you can run cljs code with rhino
19:42	Raynes	dsantiago: Are you trying to keep 1.3.0 support in hickory?
19:42	ivan	do you want to test with a real browser?
19:42	Raynes	Clojure 1.3.0, that is.
19:42	wei_	phantomjs
19:42	dsantiago	Raynes: Hadn't thought about it.
19:43	Raynes	dsantiago: I'm playing around with using ex-info to improve error messages, but IIRC it is 1.4.0-only.
19:43	dsantiago	My usual policy is to just use new features if they are worthwhile, and if you need to work with an older Clojure, use an old version.
19:44	Raynes	Sounds reasonable. I'll see what I come up with and show it to you later.
19:44	dsantiago	Sure
19:44	gtrak	1.3 to 1.4 is not a big jump, and are you testing against 1.2?
19:44	Raynes	gtrak: ex-info
19:44	gtrak	yea
19:44	Raynes	That's why the jump would be necessary.
19:45	Raynes	Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say.
19:45	gtrak	I'm saying, I'm not sure why someone would avoid 1.4 if they're already on 1.3. If they're on 1.2 I get it.
19:45	ivan	wei_: well, phantomjs is running your compiled JS in that case
19:45	Raynes	Oh.
19:46	gtrak	1.2 to 1.3 was a month or so for us, 1.4 was a couple of days
19:46	wei_	ivan: yes, the tests references dom elements so I'd need a browser, or a headless browser like phantomjs
19:46	technomancy	agreed there's no reason to stay on 1.3
19:48	frozenlock	Languages like clojure have spoiled me... now I get mad when I do 1 / 2 and get 0.
19:48	gtrak	,(1 / 2) ;; :-)
19:48	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
19:48	gtrak	way better
19:49	arrdem	anyone got a compelling reason for me to try a new DB before I start writing more congomongo?
19:50	frozenlock	"You cannot have nested FORALL statements within a FORALL statement." Why the hell not? Raaaaa
19:51	yogthos	technomancy: I noticed something funny with project.clj if there's a new line between :min-lein-version and "2.0.0" then v2 does not get picked up
19:51	frozenlock	arrdem: Still in mongodb, or in another db type?
19:52	arrdem	frozenlock: suggest something. mongo's the only thing I've used more than once, but I'm open and at the point of needing to pick a backend.
19:52	technomancy	yogthos: on heroku or inside leiningen?
19:53	yogthos	technomancy: on heroku
19:53	yogthos	technomancy: is it something heroku does?
19:53	frozenlock	arrdem: I can't really suggest anything, I've only used congomono :p
19:53	frozenlock	congomongo even
19:53	arrdem	haha well then I guess I'm doing ibdknox's simpledb -> mongodb again
19:54	technomancy	yogthos: the script we use to detect that has to be written in bash, so we don't have access to a full Clojure reader
19:54	tomoj	should hickory include a function for converting hiccup to hickory?
19:54	technomancy	it's a fallible heuristic by design unfortunately
19:54	tomoj	and/or does it already?
19:54	yogthos	technomancy: ah ok, I ran into this when I was injecting stuff into the project file and then pretty printing it :)
19:54	hiredman	time to write a reader in bash
19:55	yogthos	lol
19:56	arrdem	a task I do not envy...
19:56	yogthos	is there anything else to watch out for or is it the only heroku specific flag? :)
19:56	yogthos	hiredman: I'm sure somebody's written a lisp parser in bash :P
19:57	technomancy	yogthos: leiningen will issue a warning, and it has the proper map to work with rather than grep
19:58	yogthos	technomancy: yeah I saw the warning, but took me a few min to figure out what was causing it ;)
20:03	yogthos	argh pretty printer really doesn't like the idea of putting them on the same line even with print-right-margin set
20:04	yogthos	I guess because the structure is a list, it reasonably decides to put each item on its own line
20:05	technomancy	the pretty printer is beyond the scope of puny human minds
20:05	yogthos	lol
20:05	yogthos	it's technically doing the right thing
20:09	bpr	is there a way to query a multimethod for a list of methods registered with it?
20:10	Fare	yes
20:12	technomancy	leiningen 2.0.0-RC1 is out my friends
20:12	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/NEWS.md
20:13	frozenlock	Yay!
20:13	jkkramer	technomancy: congrats!
20:13	frozenlock	Can it make sandwiches now? :)
20:15	brainproxy	technomancy: congrants, and THANKS!
20:15	technomancy	frozenlock: better make a plugin
20:15	amalloy	&(doc methods) ;; bpr
20:15	lazybot	⇒ "([multifn]); Given a multimethod, returns a map of dispatch values -> dispatch fns"
20:15	bpr	thanks: amalloy
20:16	amalloy	really just search for "method" in clojure/core.clj to find all the public features; and look in MultiFn.java for a few that are secret and not a good idea to use
20:16	bpr	yeah, i searched for "-method" :-/
20:17	bbloom	bpr: i'll also keep pushing my dispatch-map project :-) https://github.com/brandonbloom/dispatch-map
20:18	bpr	bbloom: i was looking at that earlier. it looks really cool!
20:20	brainproxy	dang, lein-ring is bombing after upgrade to rc1
20:20	brainproxy	lein2 rc1 i mean
20:20	brainproxy	weavejester: ^
20:20	frozenlock	technomancy: I'm impressed by the number of changes VS the last version
20:20	brainproxy	will investigate, see if I can fix and work up a pull request
20:21	technomancy	frozenlock: this one kept getting pushed back because of issues with clojars
20:21	frozenlock	I also realize I'm not using lein to its full potential...
20:21	weavejester	brainproxy: Try lein-ring 0.8.0-SNAPSHOT
20:22	brainproxy	weavejester: will do
20:22	yogthos	technomancy: gross :) https://www.refheap.com/paste/8355
20:24	brainproxy	weavejester: works great!
20:24	weavejester	I'll release 0.8.0 sometime tomorrow or this weekend
20:25	brainproxy	weavejester: cool, thanks for the heads up
20:29	xeqi	weavejester: could I persuade you to upgrade the version of leinjacker used by lein-ring
20:29	xeqi	it keeps pulling in a thneed 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT
20:30	weavejester	xeqi: Already done- oh wait, maybe I haven't pushed...
20:30	xeqi	hurray
20:30	xeqi	thakns
20:31	weavejester	xeqi: I've already pushed it to clojars, so 0.8.0-SNAPSHOT should work if you test it out
20:32	xeqi	heh, kinda defeats not relieing on a snapshot
20:32	weavejester	xeqi: 0.8.0 will be released tomorrow, probably
20:33	xeqi	no rush, just happy its in the pipeline
20:40	andrewma`	Does anyone have any recommendations for clojurescript testing frameworks? I've been looking around but haven't had all that much success finding anything
20:46	yogthos	weavejester: it doesn't look like the jar produced by lein ring uberjar accept a custom port, is there a way to specify it?
20:47	callen	yogthos: getenv?
20:47	callen	yogthos: 12-factor that shit up?
20:47	weavejester	yogthos: It checks the $PORT env variable
20:47	yogthos	callen: weavejester: ah ok that works
20:47	weavejester	yogthos: Maybe it should also take the port as an argument
20:47	callen	like I said.
20:47	yogthos	weavejester: as long as it's documented I think env is fine
20:55	callen	yogthos: I'd told you lumnius was going to probably need to shift to a 12-factor style at some point :P
20:55	yogthos	callen: yup I do recall that :P
20:56	yogthos	callen: I've just done a huge refactor to finally use ring-server for everything :)
20:56	clojurebot	Excuse me?
20:56	callen	yogthos: written by Herokuites: http://www.12factor.net/
20:56	yogthos	handy :)
20:57	callen	yogthos: yeah ring-server should save some effort.
20:57	yogthos	callen: yeah it's a lot cleaner and it pushes stuff like reloading into project profile where it belongs
20:59	callen	yogthos: aye. good call.
21:00	yogthos	callen: weavejester set me straight on that this morning ;)
21:00	callen	yogthos: the more best practices that get embedded in Luminus, the better off we all are.
21:00	callen	yogthos: have you looked at Kiln?
21:00	yogthos	callen: briefly
21:00	callen	yogthos: I've been considering testing a request context thingy.
21:01	callen	to replicate something really useful in Flask.
21:01	yogthos	callen: looks kinda neat, what's the use case you were thinking for it?
21:02	callen	yogthos: best if I just link it: http://flask.pocoo.org/docs/api/#flask.g
21:02	callen	yogthos: insanely useful for things like getting, "is there a user logged in for this request lifecycle?"
21:03	yogthos	callen: it sounds similar to lib-noir sessions no?
21:03	callen	yogthos: sessions are for users.
21:03	yogthos	callen: you can do a flash session with it
21:04	callen	I don't like mixing request lifecycle state with sessions.
21:04	yogthos	callen: ah, but the functionality is similar right?
21:04	callen	'ish but it squicks me out.
21:04	yogthos	callen: hehe
21:05	yogthos	but yeah that's what we've got there so far http://www.luminusweb.net/noir-api/noir.session.html
21:05	callen	Store a value that will persist for this request and the next.
21:05	callen	yogthos: and the next?
21:05	yogthos	callen: appears that way :)
21:05	callen	yogthos: that's no bueno man.
21:05	callen	not what I was talking about.
21:06	callen	Flask.g is not for users. it's expressly server-side and per-request only.
21:06	yogthos	callen: don't shoot the messenger :P
21:06	callen	yogthos: I'm just saying, it's something I need.
21:07	yogthos	callen: gotcha, would probably be easier to do with middleware than going fill klin though :)
21:08	yogthos	callen: depending how much functionality you need of course, if you just want to persist some value from one request cycle I'd do it via middleware with an atom or something
21:08	callen	yogthos: middleware with an atom is my point, but I want to explore the problem and codify "best practice"
21:09	yogthos	callen: I could add that to lib-noir if Raynes likes it :)
21:11	yogthos	callen: then document it on luminus and voila it's a standard feature :)
21:16	Raynes	yogthos: I don't see what we're supposed to add
21:16	Raynes	What does he want?
21:16	Raynes	I just read what he said, but I don't get it.
21:17	yogthos	Raynes: I think he wants a variable which will persist for a single request lifecycle, kind of like session/flash-put
21:17	yogthos	Raynes: but he doesn't like that it's conflated with the session
21:17	yogthos	I'd like to see an example of it in action :)
21:18	yogthos	callen: is that about right?
21:18	Raynes	yogthos: Okay. That's kind of what flash sessions used to be, and they were pretty painful to use so we changed them. If you find something that's useful and you're fairly confident that it's useful for people who also aren't named Chris Allen, go for it.
21:19	Raynes	:p
21:19	yogthos	Raynes: haha that's pretty much what I'm thinking, if I can see a general use case and make an obvious example then I'd add it :)
21:20	yogthos	I think the fact that we're not getting how it's supposed to be used is a bit of a red flag :)
21:22	yogthos	weavejester: oh maybe update clojure toolbox to mention luminus and remove noir, seeing how it's deprecated now :)
21:24	yogthos	weavejester: also liberator is worth mentioning http://clojure-liberator.github.com/
21:27	xeqi	weavejester: I think clj-webdriver could go under the Web Testing heading
21:43	SegFaultAX	Anyone heard of Sonain?
21:43	SegFaultAX	Err, Sonian?
21:43	amalloy	i bet hiredman has
21:44	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Is that where he works?
21:44	amalloy	last i checked
21:44	SegFaultAX	hiredman: Ping. :)
21:58	rbxbx	Does clojure make any guarantees that keys and vals return in the same sort order?
21:58	rbxbx	They currently do, but that seems counter intuitive knowing that hash-maps don't guarantee ordering
21:59	yogthos	rbxbx: in a sorted-map they do
21:59	rbxbx	yogthos they do in a std hash-map as well, currently
21:59	rbxbx	is the difference if it were to execute on a separate thread?
21:59	yogthos	&(sorted-map :x 1 :b 2 :c 3 :a 5)
21:59	lazybot	⇒ {:a 5, :b 2, :c 3, :x 1}
21:59	weavejester	rbxbx: In a hash-map? Not just an array-map?
22:00	yogthos	weavejester: ping re: libs :)
22:00	rbxbx	user=> (keys {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
22:00	rbxbx	(:a :c :b)
22:00	rbxbx	user=> (vals {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
22:00	rbxbx	(1 3 2)
22:00	weavejester	yogthos: Oh yeah, I'll add them to the toolbox tomorrow
22:01	yogthos	weavejester: awesome :)
22:01	rbxbx	weavejester ^^
22:01	weavejester	rbxbx: But that's an array map
22:02	weavejester	rbxbx: Does it work with a hash map as well?
22:02	jkkramer	rbxbx: I believe the BDFL has said they are guaranteed to return in the same order, so that (zipmap (keys m) (vals m)) would always hold true
22:02	jkkramer	but I'm not sure where or when that was said
22:02	weavejester	It makes sense, obviously
22:03	weavejester	I was just curious as to whether it held in all cases.
22:03	yogthos	wouldn't it be safer to just iterate the map as a vector? eg (vec {:foo 1 :bar 2})
22:03	amalloy	yes, jkkramer, that is a thing that he has said but nobody with permission to document it seems interested in doing so
22:03	rbxbx	weavejester works with hash-maps as well
22:03	rbxbx	jkkramer that was the use-case that sprung this
22:03	rbxbx	Good to know. Thanks everyone.
22:04	yogthos	so it is guaranteed?
22:06	amalloy	yes. i agree with yogthos, though: it's generally a better idea to consume the map as a seq of kv pairs if you're doing this anyway
22:07	devn	bah, im blanking, if i want to (comp myfn .toLowerCase), how do I do that?
22:08	devn	I thought it was memoize?
22:08	rbxbx	don't you just need to wrap the method in an anon fn?
22:08	rbxbx	(comp myfn #(.toLowerCase %))
22:10	devn	yep :)
22:10	cantsin`	guys, im having problems installing lein. i get "Could not find artifact lein-newnew:lein-newnew:jar:0.3.7"
22:11	cantsin`	i dont have http_proxy set or anything like that, anyone have any ideas?
22:11	rbxbx	devn :)
22:11	cantsin`	(lein version is 2.0.0-rc1)
22:12	jkkramer	there's also (comp myfn (memfn toLowerCase)) but hardly anyone uses memfn
22:13	rbxbx	jkkramer didn't know about that. Why don't people use it? Seems it more clearly expresses intent.
22:14	jkkramer	I dunno. maybe because it's a dirty macro
22:14	rbxbx	Also doesn't seem to work?
22:14	rbxbx	user=> ((memfn .toLowerCase) "FOOBAR")
22:14	rbxbx	IllegalArgumentException No matching method found: .toLowerCase for class java.lang.String clojure.lang.Reflector.invokeMatchingMethod (Reflector.java:53)
22:14	rbxbx	user=> (.toLowerCase "FoOOBAR")
22:14	rbxbx	"fooobar"
22:15	tpope	rbxbx: extra dot
22:15	jkkramer	&((memfn toLowerCase) "FOOBAR")
22:15	lazybot	⇒ "foobar"
22:15	rbxbx	doh.
22:15	rbxbx	tpope thanks.
22:16	rbxbx	I should work on that whole thinking before speaking thing.
22:16	tpope	incidentally, you're also including an extra . at the end of each line
22:17	technomancy	cantsin`: run `lein version` inside a project first and it'll fix that
22:17	technomancy	cantsin`: we'll have a final 2.0.0 soon
22:17	cantsin`	technomancy: thanks :)
22:19	cantsin`	technomancy: worked like a charm, thanks once again
22:19	devn	i tend to do this kind of thing a lot: (defn thing->otherthing [thing] ...), and then make another fn (defn things->otherthings [things] ...)
22:19	devn	am i doing it wrong?
22:29	devn	hm, i think i need to build a fancy shmancy music server thingamabob in clojure
22:29	devn	so people can jam to my excellent tunages
22:30	devn	(.trustMe (> my-music your-music))
22:30	talios	mmm distributed concurrent overtone
22:31	tomoj	the latency on my audio interface is already bad enough
22:31	devn	whine whine whine
22:31	devn	do you want free music or not?
22:31	tomoj	oh, yeah
22:31	devn	:)
22:31	tomoj	I was referring to collab overtone over wan
22:31	devn	oh!
22:32	tomoj	seems tricky
22:32	devn	man, i'm not that old. i'm 27
22:32	devn	i remember wanting to be able to "jam" online with other musicians in real time, using analog inputs
22:32	devn	this was in like 2000
22:32	devn	i've seen lots of attempts
22:32	tomoj	can't really let people play live
22:32	devn	but nothing satisfying
22:32	devn	it would be glorious if that could happen
22:33	tpope	technomancy: can we get a bump to nrepl 0.2.0-RC2 into lein?
22:33	ibdknox	collaborative overtone probably wouldn't be that hard
22:33	devn	you know how there's the new york jazz scene, and the paris scene, etc.? imagine if you could just get online and play with dizzy gillespie or something.
22:33	devn	ibdknox: someone already did it
22:33	technomancy	tpope: definitely; can you open an issue so I remember?
22:34	tpope	I can
22:34	technomancy	great
22:34	tomoj	but there's too much latency to have your local play-time sync'd with your local listen-time, isn't there?
22:34	ibdknox	devn: with overtone?
22:34	devn	ibdknox: yeah, can't remember what it was called now! blast!
22:34	tomoj	if play/compose-time is ahead of listen-time I can imagine it
22:35	ibdknox	tomoj: it's based on a metronome, so long as you sync the very first beat
22:35	tpope	whoa, I've never seen "Please review the guidelines for contributing to this repository." before
22:35	tpope	I want that on all my projects, NOW
22:35	devn	do you guys know about yaxu?
22:35	devn	alex maclean?
22:35	ibdknox	tomoj: yeah, but that's true of overtone anyways right?
22:35	ibdknox	I mean I guess you could come close to real time if you use some other input device
22:36	ibdknox	but if you're actually writing the code, it's hard to imagine that working
22:36	tomoj	by 'live' (play-time ~= listen-time) I'm thinking of e.g. left click = drum hit, where I click along with what I'm hearing
22:36	tomoj	oh, yeah
22:36	devn	http://yaxu.org/dorkcamp-and-new-demo/
22:36	devn	alex mclean makes everyone mortal
22:36	ibdknox	I've tried out basically every real-time music jam service
22:37	ibdknox	it never worked
22:37	ibdknox	like you said, the latency kills it
22:37	devn	ibdknox: do you have a "best" if you had to pick one?
22:37	ibdknox	anything more than about 30-40ms
22:37	devn	ibdknox: or do they all just fuck it up?
22:37	ibdknox	the speed of light fucks it up ;)
22:38	tomoj	but how about a mashup jam, you each get a few tracks and queue up voices from samples on those tracks, which get auto mashed, and you have to pass 'solo' rights around
22:38	devn	ibdknox: hence the number of services/apps/projects/whatever that allow you to download some editable version of music and collaborate on it, version control
22:39	devn	one idea that i havent seen is people collaborating on LOOPS in real time
22:39	tomoj	yeah, was thinking that too
22:39	devn	people either seem to go for true real-time collaboration, or async collaboration
22:39	ibdknox	the loop thing is how I would imagine a collaborative overtone working
22:39	devn	i think you probably need to meet in the middle
22:40	devn	sure, pile on after i have a great idea! ;)
22:40	tomoj	I don't really want to write code in a browser, but some collab loop interface with clojure-extensible controls/effects would be cool
22:40	devn	but no, i think that's something that is surprisingly close to real-time, whether people know it or not
22:40	devn	that's how "grooves" happen
22:41	devn	your bass goes: "bum _ _ _ bum bum bow" for 4 measures, and then i figure out some embellishment or addition that is satisfying and hit the enter key on my keyboard
22:42	tomoj	just need to coordinate change seconds in advance instead of, uh, shorter
22:43	devn	maybe the one thing that sucks the most about any sort of async collaboration is that there usually isn't an immediate "no!"
22:43	rbxbx	devn that's essentially how real time electronic music works anyway
22:43	rbxbx	ie: playing with someone next to me on a pile of drum machines is going to be the same way
22:43	devn	rbxbx: but it's 1 person
22:43	devn	i disagree. there needs to be a meeting of the minds
22:43	devn	sometimes people get to veto one another
22:44	rbxbx	I mean, it's easier irl because you have the feedback loop of their facial expressions and body language
22:44	rbxbx	but that could be emulated as well via skype or some such
22:44	rbxbx	much like pair programming
22:44	rbxbx	in fact, overtone, skype, tmux, ssh. Find some way to pipe the audio realtime
22:45	rbxbx	done
22:45	rbxbx	forget the browser
22:45	devn	down to brass tacks: I fucking love overtone. Overtone is bad ass. Truly bad ass. But I have to say that usually my experience with anything close to programming music goes like this: Cool. Wow. That's great. Holy shit. ...2 hours pass... Oh, I can play guitar. Why am I not doing that? That's way more fun.
22:45	rbxbx	devn totally. but you were just trying to come up with realtime overtone collaboration
22:45	rbxbx	and I've given you that.
22:45	rbxbx	:D
22:46	devn	haha. yeah. literally the last 8 years I've thought about this a lot, and it's really, really hard.
22:46	devn	I don't think you can emulate real-time collaboration even with a tiny murmur of delay in the signal
22:46	devn	it just doesn't work
22:46	devn	people are way more flexible
22:46	devn	that's the joy of it
22:46	rbxbx	I think with loop based music you'd be fine
22:47	rbxbx	That said I've not done extensive research.
22:47	devn	ah but!!! I'll be the naysayer here
22:47	devn	my experience with loop-based music is something like this:
22:47	rbxbx	you typically vibe for a few bars anyway before adding components
22:48	rbxbx	devn we should maybe take this offline, not sure #clojure is the appropriate venue anymore.
22:48	devn	cool static loop! oh wait! it changes every single time you play it!
22:49	devn	rbxbx: meh. no one is saying anything.
22:49	rbxbx	We're still filling the backlog with rubbish ;)
22:49	devn	PEOPLE OF #CLOJURE: IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION OR SOMETHING SUBSTANTIVE YOU WANT TO DISCUSS PLEASE MENTION IT NOW.
22:50	seangrove	Does clojurescript modify js prototypes?
22:50	devn	again: meh. the backlog is always filled with rubbish.
22:50	seangrove	I'm seeing some problems with other plugins on the same page, wondering if it's my/cljs' fault for modifying expected js primitive behavior
22:52	devn	seangrove: first question's answer: no.
22:52	devn	seangrove: second question'
22:52	devn	second question's answer: you didn't ask a second question.
22:52	seangrove	Yes, glad you noticed that ;)
22:52	seangrove	Good stuff, back to trial and error
22:52	devn	seangrove: godspeed!
22:53	seangrove	Much appreciated
22:53	devn	(keep going 50mph and you'll survive)
23:14	alex_baranosky	devn: question 'what is the meaning of life'?
23:29	wei_	what's lein cljsbuild doing in the 30 seconds after it says "Successfully compiled …" and when it returns? hard to debug since there's no output.
23:29	wei_	since the targets seem to be generated, is it safe to kill the "lein cljsbuild once" process?
23:52	Raynes	wei_: Calling it's mom and talking about its dad's bowel movements.
23:53	wei_	hah.