#clojure – 2013-01-05

2013-01-05

00:07	muhoo	tomoj: it's bitcoinj under clj on the server side
00:07	muhoo	it'll be a store for music. soon, i hope
03:06	amalloy	ambrosebs: my understanding was he wanted something more like an enum: "This function returns either :foo or :bar"
03:07	ambrosebs	amalloy: sounds like a union?
03:08	amalloy	i dunno. i haven't done much more than skim typedclojure, myself. but isn't a union a union of existing types? whereas :foo is a value, not a type
03:08	ambrosebs	Typed Clojure has value types (singletons)
03:09	ambrosebs	(U ':foo ':bar)
03:09	amalloy	excellent. then it sounds exactly like...uh...what i think he wanted
03:09	ambrosebs	:)
04:19	dbushenko	how to learn in clojurescript how many parameters the function expects?
04:49	dbushenko	how to get current namespace name in clojurescript?
05:05	tomoj	there is no current namespace
05:06	tomoj	except in macro land, in which case it should be, what, (:ns &env) ?
05:06	amalloy	ns?
05:08	tomoj	oh yeah
05:08	Sgeo	I'd need to understand them first though
06:40	Netfeed	with clojure.java.jdbc, what's the best way to run a string with 1 or more different sql-commands?
06:41	Netfeed	most likely to be inserts and/or create table and such
06:42	Netfeed	so i'm not sure if i can use with-query-result for it
06:45	thorwil	Netfeed: what's the sql you have in mind?
06:48	Netfeed	it could be something like "CREATE TABLE foo (name TEXT); INSERT INTO foo ('bar');"
06:48	Netfeed	the problem is that i read it from a file and i don't know what it is ahead of execution
06:49	thorwil	it should be obvious that with-query-result is solely for queries
06:50	Netfeed	yes
06:51	Netfeed	it seems like there's a way to do it in 0.2.4-SNAPSHOT
06:52	thorwil	so you would have to use one of with-query-results, insert-records, create-table ... conditionally
06:53	thorwil	Netfeed: is taking the different commands from a text file an absolute must, or can you change the architecture?
06:54	Netfeed	i can't change that, but it seems like db-do-commands will do the trick in 0.2.4-SNAPSHOT so i will take a look at that
06:55	thorwil	ah, do-commands
07:01	samrat	in nrepl.el, how can I find out which port the REPL is running on?
07:06	AimHere	You could always use 'netstat -p' (on Linux) or with some other command line switches on other OSes
07:16	Sgeo	,'??!lambda
07:16	clojurebot	??!lambda
07:16	Sgeo	awesome
07:20	hyPiRion	,'it's-dangerous-though.
07:20	clojurebot	it's-dangerous-though.
07:21	hyPiRion	At least for function names.
07:21	Sgeo	I'm reading some Oleg stuff
07:21	Sgeo	He defines a ??!apply macro and a ??!lambda form that ??!apply interprets
07:22	Sgeo	Right now I'm reading him write a macroexpansion-level factorial using them
07:23	Sgeo	using syntax-rules of course which is the only R5RS macro mechanism
07:50	Raynes	Sgeo: There is a certain level of nerd that even we should be careful treading near.
07:50	Raynes	You're prancing all over it.
07:50	Sgeo	:D
07:51	Sgeo	I'm trying to figure out if any of this stuff could be useful in Racket or Clojure
07:51	Sgeo	Rather than just pure R5RS
07:51	Sgeo	(which only has syntax-rules, not syntax-case)
07:58	acuzio	folks - how do you invoke the local bot ?
07:59	acuzio	~ ping
07:59	clojurebot	PONG!
07:59	acuzio	ah there it is -
07:59	hyPiRion	~botsnack
07:59	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
08:00	Raynes	acuzio: , is for code eval in clojurebot, & is for code eval in lazybot, and ##(println "is for code evaluation in the middle of a message")
08:00	lazybot	⇒ is for code evaluation in the middle of a message nil
08:02	acuzio	Raynes: ta
08:02	hyPiRion	And &\| (println "is for inline eval") \|& for lazybot.
08:02	lazybot	⇒ is for inline eval nil
08:03	Raynes	wat
08:03	Raynes	hyPiRion: I swear to God I had no clue it could do that, and I wrote the bloody bot.
08:04	acuzio	Raynes: btw - thanks for tryclj
08:04	Sgeo	And also, there's a difference between clojurebot and lazybot when it comes to ...
08:04	hyPiRion	Raynes: hahah, grats
08:05	hyPiRion	I wish I could program subconsciously too.
08:05	Netfeed	another java.jdbc question: stupid question but, how do you know if a transaction succeded?
08:06	hyPiRion	mutt sgeo@rip.com
08:06	lazybot	Woof!
08:22	Netfeed	nevermind
08:48	dspp	how can i read in a file with slurp and then walk it as though it was code
08:48	dspp	i can load-string, but i dont want it exectued
08:48	dspp	trying to do some static analysis
08:51	terom	(doc read-string)
08:51	clojurebot	"([s]); Reads one object from the string s"
08:52	dspp	how can i quote the result and not the read-string form?
08:52	dspp	i dont want it evaluated
08:53	dspp	oh wait
08:53	dspp	sorry, read load-string instead of read-string
08:53	dspp	thanks terom
09:22	dspp	when i (read-string (slurp "file.clj")) it only returns the first form it finds
09:23	dspp	im running it on clojure.core so it returns (ns clojure.core)
09:23	dspp	what about all other expressions?
09:23	dspp	why does it stop reading?
09:24	dspp	https://raw.github.com/clojure/clojure/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj
09:24	abp	(doc read-string)
09:24	clojurebot	"([s]); Reads one object from the string s"
09:25	dspp	actually, abp, im using read-from-file-safely http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/read but result it the same
09:25	dspp	this uses read which should read in objects from a stream
09:26	dspp	i guess i need to modify that function to call read multiple times
09:26	abp	dspp found that http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6840425/with-clojure-read-read-string-function-how-do-i-read-in-a-clj-file-to-a-list-o
09:27	dspp	great, perfect, wonderful
09:27	dspp	thank you abp
09:28	dspp	i can just add the take-while to my function
09:43	zilti	Is &env an implementation detail, or is it "future-proof"?
10:42	MrMiracle	..
10:44	Raynes	MrMiracle: .....................
10:44	MrMiracle	Hello all
10:45	MrMiracle	I have a question regarding an issue I'm having with the lein repl
10:45	MrMiracle	and a compatriot lead me here, am I in the right place?
10:45	Raynes	Yup.
10:45	MrMiracle	sweet
10:45	AimHere	The guy who wrote lein is somewhere around, so you can shout at him directly
10:46	Raynes	I wrote most of the repl task.
10:46	Raynes	Oh no, I just incriminated myself.
10:46	MrMiracle	ok I'm definitely in the right place then, I'm hella new at this, never lisped before
10:46	AimHere	I'll get the pitchforks, you bring the torches
10:46	Raynes	I think it has been changed enough since then to render me sufficiently stupid.
10:46	MrMiracle	most of the development I've done is .NET with tools, etc
10:46	MrMiracle	but i wanted to dive in deep with this, and I'm having issues :)
10:47	MrMiracle	i can get a repl started, but I get a mess of errors before it kicks out a prompt
10:48	MrMiracle	and when I try to require clojure.contrib libraries, etc, I get cannot find file in the classpath
10:48	MrMiracle	or can't find it, something like that
10:48	Raynes	Please post the output of lein repl to https://www.refheap.com/paste
10:48	Raynes	(I wrote that too, teehee)
10:48	MrMiracle	sure
10:49	Raynes	You don't actually have to paste their. I like to pretend I can force people to use my pastebin.
10:49	Raynes	there*
10:49	MrMiracle	lol
10:49	AimHere	You mean you're starting to become an actual software ecosystem
10:50	callen	AimHere: "I am large and contain multitudes"
10:50	MrMiracle	https://www.refheap.com/paste/8129
10:50	Raynes	Does this happen every time?
10:50	MrMiracle	almost
10:50	Raynes	It looks like some sort of permission issue.
10:51	Raynes	I think the repl-port file is in the target/ directory.
10:51	Raynes	Might be worth while to check permissions on that.
10:52	MrMiracle	cool, thanks for the tip
10:52	MrMiracle	I've got some experimenting to do, i'll be back
10:52	Raynes	As for clojure.contrib libraries, you shouldn't be using them. The old monolithic contrib (the one with one jar and a buttload of nses in it) is deprecated. Most of it was split into several other libraries that you can scan on https://github.com/clojure
10:52	jeremyheiler	If you're not in a project, then the repl-port is created in the cwd
10:52	Raynes	I assumed this was in a project.
10:52	MrMiracle	i'm glad i found the right place, much obliged
10:53	MrMiracle	it's not
10:53	MrMiracle	that could be an issue
10:53	Raynes	Still probably a permissions issue.
10:53	MrMiracle	i'm just experimenting, like an irb, etc
10:53	Raynes	MrMiracle: What are you reading that is telling you about clojure.contrib namespaces?
10:53	Raynes	Chances are it is way too old.
10:53	MrMiracle	programming clojure
10:53	MrMiracle	by....
10:53	Raynes	You have the first edition of that book.
10:53	Raynes	The second edition is much more up-to-date.
10:54	MrMiracle	Stuart Hallaway
10:54	MrMiracle	yeah i think this one is a bit old
10:54	Raynes	I also recommend Clojure Programming by Chas Emerick et al.
10:54	Raynes	It is extremely old.
10:54	Raynes	Like, probably not very useful at all old. :p
10:54	MrMiracle	i see
10:54	Raynes	Clojure was a lot more fast moving when it came out and quite a bit has changed since then.
10:55	Raynes	But the second edition should be fine.
10:55	Raynes	Of course, I know it's probably annoying for me to tell you to go spend money.
10:55	MrMiracle	i'll see if i can track that down, I'm hungry for whatever i can get
10:55	MrMiracle	i can maybe find it at a library, we have a branch that's pretty hip with programming material
10:56	Raynes	If you can find Clojure Programming, grab it.
10:56	Raynes	It's very thorough and up-to-date
10:56	MrMiracle	i'll keep an eye out for it
10:56	MrMiracle	thanks guys,
10:56	MrMiracle	i'll be back on later, is there usually someone on here?
10:56	Raynes	You're also welcome to learn by reading code and asking questions in here.
10:57	Raynes	There is currently 519 people in here. Someone is bound to be around. ;)
10:57	Raynes	s/is currently/are currently/
10:57	MrMiracle	excellent, thanks again
10:57	Raynes	No problem.
10:57	Raynes	yogthos: Mornin' pardner
10:57	yogthos	Raynes: howdy :)
10:58	Raynes	yogthos: I'm going to set you up a ZNC account now. Have like 10 minutes in a few minutes?
10:58	yogthos	Raynes: yeah sure thing :)
10:58	Raynes	Awesome. I'll ping you in a few.
10:59	yogthos	Raynes: cool stuff
11:04	zilti	How weird. It seems to make a difference if I do (declare macroname) <form-which-uses-macro> (defmacro macro1) (defmacro macroname <uses macro1>) or if I do (defmacro macro1) (defmacro macroname <uses macro 1>) <form-which-uses-macro>.
11:10	zilti	https://gist.github.com/4462196 <- If someone's interested. I'm not sure if that's a bug?
11:11	zilti	*Clojure bug
11:15	tpope	zilti: I'm not sure why it says and, but you're most definitely tring to take the value of clojure.core/or
11:15	jonasen	kovas: ping
11:16	zilti	tpope: Whoops. The error is supposed to say "clojure.core/or", not "and". But the first one does not work, but the second does. (as in, compiles).
11:17	zilti	All three functions and macros are identical in both cases, just the order is different.
11:17	tpope	zilti: first one you've just declared it, second one you've made a macro
11:18	abp	zilti, I can reproduce that.
11:18	zilti	tpope: Yes, I know, and the compiler stumbles over that. In a in my opinion very weird way.
11:18	tpope	macro expansion happens at compile time, so you can't define a macro after you use it
11:18	abp	yes
11:18	abp	now I know why :x
11:18	zilti	So declare intentionally doesn't work in the case of macros?
11:19	tpope	that's a very weird way to say it's impossible
11:19	tpope	it's not like someone went in and added special case code to blow up if you tried to use a macro that doesn't exist
11:21	Bronsa	try (declare ^:macro foo)
11:21	Bronsa	no wait, it's still no use
11:26	abp	Bronsa, at least it works. I still have no knowledge of the internals of Clojure..
11:43	brainproxy	recommendation for blog post, tutorial etc. for using java's watch service w/ clojure?
11:45	tpope	hey what do you call those -- foo -- lines that emacs recognizes in files? and does anyone ever use them anymore?
11:50	gko	file variables?
11:51	tpope	gko: that's it
11:51	Raynes	tpope: God I hope not.
11:51	Raynes	tpope: I compulsively beat the shit out of people who use those things in any editor.
11:52	gko	tpope: yes, still used.
11:53	tpope	Raynes: I don't use them in source code. but I've occasionally found the vim equivalent handy for setting the file type of say, some weird file in /etc
11:55	Raynes	I'M SORRY, I CAN'T HELP IT, I CAN'T STOP
11:55	abp	of mud?
12:16	TimMc	tpope: I thought they were called modelines.
12:16	tpope	TimMc: that's we call them over in vi land
12:16	tpope	but googling emacs modeline gets me stuff about the bottom line of the screen
12:16	TimMc	ha
12:16	technomancy	yeah the modeline is the place it tells you which modes are active
12:17	tmciver	TimMc: got my macro working based on your advice: wrote a function to return syntax then wrote the macro that apply's its args to it. Thanks bud.
12:18	TimMc	\o/
12:44	Raynes	I would hope so.
12:44	Raynes	If not, you'd be an excellent troll though.
12:44	Raynes	Rivaling lajla.
12:44	gfredericks	ahahaha I take it all back python FTW
12:44	gfredericks	you suckers fell for it
12:45	Raynes	I was just glancing in #python.
12:45	gfredericks	clojure was a good try but it is not named after a snake
12:45	Raynes	I saw a money wearing a beach ball around his private parts and dancing to Die Young by Ke$ha.
12:46	gfredericks	a monkey?
12:46	Raynes	monkey
12:46	gfredericks	phew
12:46	Raynes	I sometimes forget letters.
12:55	djwonk	Is `contains-duplicates?` an idiomatic name for a predicate?
12:55	antoineB	hello, is it possible to do computation on compile time with macro, in clojurescript?
12:55	Raynes	djwonk: Sure.
12:56	gfredericks	djwonk: the only other idea I would have is `duplicates?` if that makes enough sense
12:56	gfredericks	antoineB: the macros are run in clojure; but otherwise yes
12:56	gfredericks	(i.e., on the jvm)
12:56	Raynes	Yeah, or that. Either one is perfectly fine. Whichever you feel is more descriptive.
12:56	gfredericks	djwonk: also `does-first-arg-to-this-function-have-duplicate-things?!!?`
12:56	gfredericks	that one is slightly more ruby-style
12:57	djwonk	gfredericks yes! `is-this-function-name-too-long?`
12:57	gfredericks	(def is-this-function-name-too-long? (constantly true))
12:58	djwonk	or (def ^:const is-this-function-name-long-enough-yet? false)
12:59	gfredericks	hmmm. How can a clojurescript lib ensure that some clojure code has been run? The hacky thing I can think of is to require-macros on a file just for its load-time side-effects
12:59	gfredericks	(purpose is to modify the cljs compiler)
13:01	antoineB	gfredericks: i would like (my-macro obj [-prop 12]) be transform to (set! (.. obj -prop) 12) instead of (set! (.. obj (first [-prop 12])) (second [-prop 12]))
13:02	gfredericks	antoineB: what's your macro definition currently?
13:03	antoineB	(defmacro help-deserialize [obj data] `(set! (.. ~obj (first ~data)) (second ~data)))
13:04	antoineB	the size of data is know at compile time
13:04	gfredericks	(defmacro my-macro [obj [prop-name data]] `(set! (.. ~obj ~prop-name) ~data))
13:04	gfredericks	would that work?
13:04	gfredericks	maybe s/data/value/
13:06	antoineB	gfredericks: yes that works, tahnks
13:06	gfredericks	antoineB: also would have worked to do (defmacro my-macro [obj data] `(set! (.. ~obj ~(first data)) ~(second data)))
13:07	gfredericks	antoineB: you want to unquote around the first and second, else they're quoted and emitted instead of run at compile-time
13:08	antoineB	that works too
13:10	antoineB	i was thinking i should do ~(first ~data), but that does'nt work
13:14	thorwil	suddenly midje is of a different opinion then the repl. that is, it somehow got stuck on an older version of the function tested.
13:14	Raynes	Is there an easy way to copy a var in one namespace to another? Like defalias used to do before it got thrown out of contrib because it was 'broken' (had a misleading name, Stuart Sierra's OCD strikes again, I guess).
13:16	gfredericks	thorwil: `lein clean`?
13:16	jeremyheiler	Raynes: mayber refer with :rename?
13:17	jeremyheiler	I guess, what do you mean by 'copy'?
13:17	thorwil	gfredericks: didn't help. have no idea how that related to the active "lein immutant run", anyway
13:17	Raynes	I have a couple of functions in an internal namespace that I'd like to make public in another.
13:18	jeremyheiler	ahihi2, hmm...
13:18	jeremyheiler	ah hmm...
13:20	jeremyheiler	Why not (def bar foo/bar) ?
13:20	Raynes	Because I need metadata.
13:20	jeremyheiler	arg
13:21	Raynes	(intern ns (with-meta 'zipper? (meta #'lzip/zipper?)) lzip/zipper?)
13:21	Raynes	Works, but I'd rather cut my left off at the thigh with a dull blade.
13:21	Raynes	I only have two fns to do that for, so it is forgivable, but still bleh.
13:22	jeremyheiler	&(doc intern)
13:22	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! intern is bad!
13:23	jeremyheiler	,(doc intern)
13:23	clojurebot	"([ns name] [ns name val]); Finds or creates a var named by the symbol name in the namespace ns (which can be a symbol or a namespace), setting its root binding to val if supplied. The namespace must exist. The var will adopt any metadata from the name symbol. Returns the var."
13:23	gfredericks	lazybot: turn off the alarm
13:23	jeremyheiler	That second to last sentence. Do you stil need with-meta then?
13:23	Raynes	jeremyheiler: Yes.
13:23	jeremyheiler	cool
13:24	Raynes	It adopts meta from the name symbol, not the thing you pass as the value. If it did the latter it'd do precisely what I want.
13:29	Raynes	jeremyheiler: (defmacro defcopy [name oldname] `(intern ns (with-meta '~name (meta #'~oldname)) #'~oldname))
13:32	jeremyheiler	nice. perhaps update the :name key in the metadata in the case the new name is different.
13:32	jeremyheiler	and :ns
13:32	jeremyheiler	maybe not, depends on those are used i guess
13:32	Raynes	Well, technically that stuff is still correct.
13:33	jeremyheiler	right
13:33	Raynes	So it's a little confusing what should and shouldn't be changed.
13:33	Raynes	I'm probably just going to not do this at all, because I'm entering potemkin territory.
13:34	jeremyheiler	haha, i suppose it's good practice to not expose another public api as your own shrug
13:35	Raynes	It is my own API, I just had to move it to avoid circular dependencies.
13:35	jeremyheiler	ah
13:48	Anniepoo	foo - apt-get leiningen installs freaking openjdk
13:50	p_l	Anniepoo: ... let me guess, ubuntu? ;P
13:52	Foxboron	What is the 'best' way for autocompletion? Example: (defn <tab> or defn <tab>?
13:53	Foxboron	WHen i read it over now i managed to explain it in the worst possible way...hmm
13:54	Raynes	https://www.refheap.com/paste Working for everyone? Just renewed my SSL cert.
13:54	uvtc	Can anyone suggest a general rule for when to use a map, vs. when to use a record?
13:54	gfredericks	Raynes: werks for me and chrome is green
13:54	Raynes	gfredericks: o/
13:54	gfredericks	uvtc: don't use a record
13:54	Foxboron	Imma go eat some dinner and come back explaining the 'problem' a bit better.
13:54	uvtc	gfredericks: ! Why?
13:54	Raynes	uvtc: Do you need something a record gives you?
13:54	gfredericks	uvtc: not true universally, but a good rule of thumb :)
13:55	Raynes	If you don't need any features of a record that a map does not have, use a map.
13:55	uvtc	Raynes: Personally, right now, I do not. I was writing up some notes, and want to write, "Use a map unless $x, $y, or $z".
13:56	tetzco	Hi - a question regarding java interop:
13:56	Raynes	Use a map unless you need to implement a protocol or interface for it, I guess?
13:56	Raynes	Or for some other reason need it to be a specific class.
13:56	uvtc	Raynes: what does a record give you (other than performance), besides a name for the things you're creating?
13:56	tetzco	can i somehow store a java member function in a map and call it later?
13:56	gfredericks	tetzco: would memfn work?
13:56	Raynes	uvtc: See above.
13:56	uvtc	Raynes: Yes. Sounds good.
13:57	gfredericks	the lamest reason to use a record is to enforce a minimum keyset for a map
13:57	tetzco	gfredericks: i'll have a look (i'm really new to clojure so i don't even know what memfn does)
13:57	gfredericks	tetzco: or just #(.method someObj)
14:00	Anniepoo	yes, freaking ubuntu
14:00	gfredericks	,(let [m {:thunk #(.substring "foo" 1 3)}] ((:thunk m)))
14:00	clojurebot	"oo"
14:01	gfredericks	tetzco: ^ like that
14:01	Anniepoo	lol - why I quit using Clojure.
14:01	gfredericks	No results found for "why I quit using clojure".
14:02	Anniepoo	'windows is too lame, don't run Clojure on it' , now Its' 'Ubuntu's too lame, don't run Clojure on it'
14:02	bja	obviously you should only run clojure on an operating system you bootstrapped yourself
14:02	gfredericks	within a half hour the only google hit for that phrase will be an IRC log of you using it and me reporting on its google hits
14:03	Anniepoo	yup, apparently
14:03	Anniepoo	well, if yer a wimp, you can run it on a hacked version of Haiku
14:04	Anniepoo	sad, sad
14:04	gfredericks	what's up with ubuntu? I've never needed anything to run clojure besides a jdk; install lein and there it goes
14:04	uvtc	Is the main purpose of hierarchies for use with multimethods (to implement inheritance)?
14:05	Anniepoo	trying to manually run the lein script
14:05	tetzco	gfredericks: Thanks - it'll take a while for me to try this out (i need this in a macro definition and i'm still having a lot to learn …)
14:05	gfredericks	uvtc: afaik
14:06	uvtc	Anniepoo: just create (if you don't already have) a ~/bin dir, plop the lein script in there, `chmod +x lein`, then `./lein`
14:06	uvtc	gfredericks: thanks.
14:06	Anniepoo	yah, apt-get was offering to install it, I did just that
14:06	uvtc	Anniepoo: I'd suggest that you don't install Clojure or lein via apt.
14:06	freakazoid	yo peeps, LTNS
14:07	Anniepoo	bunch of missing dependencies
14:07	Anniepoo	8cP
14:07	freakazoid	I've got some java source files in my project. Is leiningen supposed to be including the source files themselves into the .jar (with lein uberjar) instead of just the .class files?
14:07	freakazoid	it is incorporating both at the moment, which seems unnecessary
14:12	Anniepoo	ok, off to windows
14:12	uvtc	I wish I could remember where, but I've heard a couple of times that you can often use higher-order functions in place of resorting to polymorphism... can anyone give an example where that's the case?
14:15	uvtc	Perhaps it's a question better asked on the ML.
14:25	uvtc	Ah. Sorry. After some searching, found a thread or two on the ML regarding polymorphism and HOFs.
14:40	Raynes	gfredericks: Thank you for that pr* tweet to Alex Redington.
14:40	Raynes	You made my day, sir.
14:41	Raynes	Sometimes flags can be very helpful. I don't much appreciate the implication that I am a bad programmer because I do not write code precisely as he would.
14:42	gfredericks	Raynes: anytime :)
14:42	Raynes	gfredericks: For example, https://github.com/Raynes/conch is entirely based around flags to change behavior. The concept would simply not work otherwise.
14:42	gfredericks	there are a few other print functions I think but not the full set of 16
14:43	gfredericks	I forget what they're for
14:44	Raynes	On second thought, conch might be slightly out of his range.
14:44	Raynes	I don't think anything there is actually a 'flag', but merely optional information.
14:45	oskarth	does anyone code clojure from FreeBSD? just curious
14:45	Raynes	For example :seq could also have a value of :err, not just true or false.
14:45	gfredericks	yeah it's an interesting argument for the simple case
14:45	gfredericks	I'd bet tempted to have three functions
14:46	Raynes	Sure, but there are a million other options as well.
14:46	Raynes	It'd be more like in the area of 10-20 or more functions.
14:46	Raynes	Seems like, anyways.
14:46	Raynes	I might be overestimating how much a process function in conch can do.
14:47	gfredericks	&(apropos "pr")
14:47	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: apropos in this context
14:47	gfredericks	oh it's the formatter versions
14:47	Raynes	No, I'm not. The problem is combinations of informations. I can't be of sound mind and still define functions for every possible combination of conch options.
14:48	Raynes	And yes, I'm having an argument with myself.
14:48	Raynes	I haven't slept in quite a while.
14:48	Raynes	I think I'll go do that now.
14:48	gfredericks	I guess there's only printf
14:48	gfredericks	Raynes: goodnight.
14:48	Raynes	It's more like a nap.
14:49	Raynes	I can only sleep until 5PM-6PM.
14:49	Raynes	I suck at sleep.
14:51	ppppaul	should i use hiccup for writing xml?
14:52	gfredericks	I've done it but I don't know that that's a supported use case
14:53	ppppaul	the xml i'm making is simple and isn't using namespaces or anything fancy
14:54	gfredericks	you're probably fine
14:59	Anniepoo	for the record, leiningen installed on my windows 7 only griping about a bunch of missing templates
15:03	ejackson	pppaul: I've done that and it works. Enlive is also an option.
15:05	ppppaul	i'm looking into clojure.data.xml
15:06	ejackson	ppppaul: another good xml lib is cheshire
15:06	ejackson	oops... wrong
15:06	ejackson	that's json....
15:07	gfredericks	json is the best kind of xml
15:08	Anniepoo	God created json to taunt sinners writing xml
15:10	ejackson	aaah yes... in the garden of edn or something...
15:10	gfredericks	what're the details on the / reader bug? it looks like it's not fixed in 1.5-RC1?
15:17	Anniepoo	aww, for the love of Pete....
15:18	technomancy	Anniepoo: don't install leiningen from apt. it's very easy to install by hand on ubuntu.
15:18	technomancy	the apt version is very outdated
15:18	Anniepoo	thanks tech- your github page advises otherwise, as I read it
15:19	Anniepoo	installing on ubuntu constantly conflicted with apt-get offering to install it, so I said to heck with it and went to windows
15:20	gfredericks	just make sure that ~/bin/lein appears at the front of the PATH
15:20	gfredericks	can't imagine how that would conflict with anything
15:20	Anniepoo	hmm... I added ~/bin that's probably it
15:20	Anniepoo	kk, will try ubuntu again, brb, gonna reboot
15:21	gfredericks	well ~/bin is fine, just make sure it's before anything else
15:21	Anniepoo	it is - dunno why it's not working. I did indeed start a new shell
15:22	technomancy	I'll put a note to make sure to get 2.x before installing from a package manager
15:22	technomancy	oh, there's already a note saying that
15:22	Anniepoo	ok, my bad
15:24	Anniepoo	well, I'm having issues with datomic on win 7, back to ubuntu
15:35	uvtc	technomancy: I don't think it's wise to advise (on leiningen.org) using your OS's package manager at all.
15:35	tpope	I think it would be fine if we weren't in a "use the preview version" state
15:36	uvtc	technomancy: I'd just remove the paragraph at the top of the "Install" section.
15:36	uvtc	tpope: My guess is, the people who want to install 1.x already know how to go about it.
15:37	tpope	I mean once 2.0 is out (lol) and has had time to propograte, that would be fine advice again
15:37	tpope	but you're right, in the meantime, nix it
15:41	Anniepoo	In early Clojure days I gave a hands on clojure thing for java programmers. I passed out the jars and a .clj and everybody was up -
15:41	ppppaul	ejackson, data.xml is being good to me... very hiccup like
15:41	gfredericks	Anniepoo: that still works
15:42	technomancy	uvtc: yeah, hopefully I can reinstate it once the package managers catch up
15:42	tpope	are you sure these package managers aren't waiting for 2.0 final?
15:42	Anniepoo	well, and my constant griping about the struggles with clojure ecosystem actually are becoming less pertinent of late
15:42	ppppaul	i have a tree walking problem guys... it's been a while since my tree walking days (2 years) and now i'm stuck on something that seems like a simple problem. i have a tree with nodes that have {:tag :value} littered in it. i want to extract all the :values for a type :tag. i want a flattened list as a result... how do i go about this (i'm trying clojure.walk, but i'm super rusty)
15:43	technomancy	tpope: fedora is but debian isn't
15:43	ravster	hello everyone
15:43	Anniepoo	from zero I've got leiningen and clooj running
15:43	technomancy	I told the fedora guys it was silly to package 1.x, but whatever
15:44	technomancy	those are the only ones who have contacted me
15:44	ravster	can someone help me with getting nrepl working? I'm trying to set it up and it just gets stuck at "connecting to nrepl on host:port"
15:44	Anniepoo	whats the deal with packages that they're always out of date?
15:44	technomancy	oh, except nix. it's on 1.x because I haven't gotten around to submitting a pull request
15:44	tpope	well I think it's silly to call it a "preview" when it's the preferred installation, but that's just me :)
15:44	Anniepoo	SWI-Prolog has the same problem
15:44	technomancy	Anniepoo: because in most cases stability is much more valuable than newness
15:44	technomancy	clojure is an edge case
15:45	technomancy	tpope: in retrospect it wasn't the best choice, but there was no way to know that clojars would take soooooo long
15:45	Anniepoo	and I get that, but SWI-Prolog does reasonable 'stable' releases
15:45	technomancy	it's downright amazing how bad the sqlite jdbc drivers are
15:45	tpope	technomancy: is there a reason you can't change course? punt the signed jars requirement to 2.1?
15:45	ejackson	ppppaul: I recommend looking at enlive selectors for that, or zippers (there is a specific XML zipper) if enlive can't do ti
15:45	technomancy	tpope: can't introduce a breaking change in 2.1
15:46	tpope	3?
15:46	tpope	I assume you're squeamish about 2 back to back major releases
15:46	technomancy	tpope: if I knew up front it would take this long, I would have called preview1 2.0.0
15:46	technomancy	but at this point it seems like it's just around the corner
15:46	xeqi	preview4
15:46	technomancy	xeqi: yeah, maybe not quite preview1 =)
15:46	uvtc	technomancy: I'm not familiar with "nix". First time I saw the name (can't recall where) I just assumed it meant "*nix" (that is, "some value of Unix").
15:47	ibdknox	it always seems just around the corner ;)
15:47	technomancy	uvtc: yeah, it's a crappy name
15:47	technomancy	ibdknox: lein's own codebase has been ready since september
15:47	ppppaul	ejackson, i'm using xml zippers right now, are you suggesting that i use enlive for general tree stuff?
15:47	technomancy	for the past 3 weeks I've learned new and amazing things about how bad sqlite is every week
15:48	technomancy	uvtc: amazing software though
15:48	ibdknox	technomancy: yeah, I know - I go and check if there's a new preview every once in a while :)
15:48	uvtc	technomancy: what is clojars switching to? Postgres? Or one of the embedded Java db's (Derby, H2)?
15:48	gfredericks	holy cow guys it's snowing at like 60 degrees from the vertical
15:48	ibdknox	technomancy: and yeah, the sqlite drivers are astoundingly bad
15:48	technomancy	I'm literally adding locks to the sqlite calls in order to avoid segfaults
15:48	technomancy	which are like the two things you use clojure because you never want to think about them again
15:49	technomancy	uvtc: probably derby; haven't decided yet
15:50	technomancy	migrating to even another embedded DB for a service like that isn't something you undertake lightly
15:50	uvtc	technomancy: thanks. At some point I was going to read through the docs on both Derby and H2 and see which made more sense to me. :)
15:50	technomancy	luckily no matter how bad the DB is it won't screw up downloads
15:50	ppppaul	github is down :(
15:50	ppppaul	i feel souless
15:51	technomancy	uvtc: if you do any research please do let me know. all I've heard is that H2 has better full-text indexing, but IMO using the DB for that is silly when we have lucene indices already generated
15:51	ibdknox	ppppaul: not for me
15:51	ppppaul	i can't see the enlive repo
15:51	Anniepoo	the world would be a better place if they turned the internet off on even numbered days
15:51	ppppaul	oh it's up now
15:52	ibdknox	ppppaul: is the cljs pprint stuff up somewhere? :)
15:52	ppppaul	i don't do cljs
15:52	xeqi	technomancy: the prebuilt lucene index aren't great for searching either :/
15:52	ppppaul	but, why wouldn't it be?
15:52	uvtc	technomancy: ok
15:52	technomancy	xeqi: even the legacy ones?
15:52	ibdknox	you must not be the paul I think you are lol
15:53	ppppaul	i have more 'p's than the paul you know
15:53	abp	ibdknox, do you know already when LT 0.3.0 will be released?
15:53	technomancy	xeqi: I know the segmented ones are annoying but IIRC we should still have access to the monolithic ones
15:53	ibdknox	abp: shooting for end of Jan
15:53	xeqi	technomancy: the prebuilt ones include every artifact (group-id, artifact-id, version), so they return results containing lots of different versions of say, hiccup
15:54	xeqi	I worked around it with some lucence filters, but they are ..... slooooooow
15:54	technomancy	xeqi: ah, gotcha. in lein search that's appropriate, but in the web UI not so much
15:54	technomancy	if there's no query syntax to collapse that then I could see the draw of doing it in the DB
15:55	xeqi	I'm thinking it'll just be better to have a different index, that gets updated on artifact save to only include the latest one
15:55	technomancy	still with lucene?
15:56	xeqi	yeah
15:56	technomancy	sure
15:56	technomancy	I was musing the other day... how crazy it would be to just store artifact data on the filesystem?
15:56	technomancy	you could walk the file-seq of the repo to build indices
15:57	xeqi	haha, I had a similiar thought the other day
15:57	technomancy	I mean, does the jars table contain anything that's not on the filesystem?
15:57	ibdknox	technomancy: It makes me sad people don't reach for that as a solution more often
15:57	xeqi	username
15:57	technomancy	xeqi: yeah, you have the group name, but that's not enough
15:58	xeqi	I'm thinking the username isn't really useful though
15:58	technomancy	could be useful for auditing
15:58	technomancy	but an append-only log would be better
15:59	technomancy	HMMMMMMMMMMMM
15:59	technomancy	bbiab
15:59	xeqi	technomancy: ooh, promoted_at isn't in the fs
16:00	gfredericks	man; you complain about a cljsbuild bug, don't do anything to fix it, wait 3 months, and suddenly nobody has fixed it.
16:00	gfredericks	what is the world coming to
16:02	ppppaul	i would like to flatten a tree, any pointers?
16:02	arrdem	ppppaul: (flatten)
16:02	ppppaul	hmmmm
16:02	gfredericks	clojure.walk/postwalk if you need more control than that
16:02	ppppaul	i will try this
16:03	ppppaul	i'm using prewalk/postwalk but it's tricky
16:04	ppppaul	flatten isn't doing anything to my tree
16:04	gfredericks	what does your tree look like?
16:04	gfredericks	flatten probably doesn't touch maps
16:05	pandeiro	6 months later i still haven't figured out how to find where nrepl.el shows (println)s in my code
16:05	gfredericks	,(clojure.walk/postwalk #(if (= :foo %) :bar %) {:foo 7 :bam [:foo]})
16:05	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
16:05	arrdem	is there some way that I can prevent the macro expander from qualfying symbols without using gensyms?
16:05	gfredericks	&(clojure.walk/postwalk #(if (= :foo %) :bar %) {:foo 7 :bam [:foo]})
16:05	lazybot	⇒ {:bar 7, :bam [:bar]}
16:05	ppppaul	(:tags #{{tag-data}} :page {:number 4})
16:06	gfredericks	,`[here are ~'my ~'symbols] ;; arrdem
16:06	clojurebot	[sandbox/here sandbox/are my symbols]
16:07	arrdem	thanks gfredericks
16:07	gfredericks	arrdem: backtick works indepently of macros
16:07	gfredericks	independently
16:07	gfredericks	independentendentdeply
16:07	arrdem	hehe. spelling is for those who can't speak engleesh
16:08	arrdem	,`['symbol]
16:08	clojurebot	[(quote clojure.core/symbol)]
16:08	arrdem	,`[~'symbol]
16:08	clojurebot	[symbol]
16:08	arrdem	AH. so the quote prevents it from being (eval)d, and the ~ expands at macro time.
16:09	gfredericks	~ unquotes
16:09	clojurebot	Huh?
16:09	arrdem	cute! thanks.
16:26	djwonk	If Java interop is not important to me, do exceptions make less sense? Do functional programs tend to need exception handling?
16:26	gfredericks	unless you want to pull out the Either monad...
16:27	gfredericks	then you'll probably still find them useful
16:27	djwonk	ok, thanks, looking for the big picture in case I was dragging along old habits
16:28	gfredericks	they should be exceptional of course :)
16:28	djwonk	right. but I get to define what exceptional is for my API, so it is sort of arbitrary
16:29	arrdem	gfredericks: can you force clojure to use clisp style signals and restarts?
16:29	gfredericks	arrdem: I'm not familiar with those; or maybe I was for an hour or two in which case I suspect it's unlikely
16:30	gfredericks	but maybe there'd be a haxy way
16:30	gfredericks	you could return functions in the ex-data...
16:30	arrdem	that could be interesting...
16:31	gfredericks	(throw (ex-info {:restarts {:who-cares (fn [] ...), :loggit (fn [] ...)}}))
16:31	gfredericks	that's probably kill your stack info?
16:31	gfredericks	that's probably the main limitation
16:32	gfredericks	that's probably the third sentence I start with those two words
16:34	TimMc	Anniepoo: I forgot you did Clojure stuff. (This is phyzome from foonetic.)
16:35	djwonk	what are some reasonable choices for a basic runtime error exception? Throwable? Exception? RuntimeException?
16:35	Anniepoo	hey Phyzome!
16:35	technomancy	xeqi: would it be crazy to disallow overwriting existing deployments even in the classic repo?
16:35	gfredericks	Throwable isn't a class I don't think
16:35	technomancy	it would sure make things simpler
16:35	Anniepoo	I forgot it too - switched to Prolog a while back
16:35	technomancy	djwonk: ex-info is the only thing worth using
16:36	technomancy	unless your code is going to be consumed by a java application
16:37	djwonk	technomancy: thanks. I was looking for something like that
16:37	djwonk	,(doc ex-info)
16:37	clojurebot	"([msg map] [msg map cause]); Alpha - subject to change. Create an instance of ExceptionInfo, a RuntimeException subclass that carries a map of additional data."
16:37	gfredericks	technomancy: that is some violent imagery
16:37	technomancy	gfredericks: the gaping maw of tomcat
16:37	gfredericks	and we never saw that code again
16:38	technomancy	I think it was Black Francis who said something about violent imagery being more likely to be memorable; throwing a brick leaves more of a mark than blowing smoke or something?
16:38	technomancy	anyway, slamhound
16:38	Anniepoo	thanks for the help all - tip o the lid to technomancy
16:38	technomancy	Anniepoo: open to suggestions for things that could clarify the docs too
16:38	technomancy	oops
16:39	gfredericks	ah ha technomancy accidentally opened himself to suggestions
16:40	xeqi	technomancy: .. I've never pushed the same artifact twice, so I don't think so
16:40	xeqi	but others might disagree
16:40	xeqi	its definitly a change
16:40	technomancy	it can be a bit embarrassing to have your mistakes stay around forever, but it sure simplifies things
16:40	technomancy	I'll bring it up on the mailing list
16:42	technomancy	anyone strongly opposed to disallowing re-deploys over the same artifact in classic clojars?
16:42	djwonk	so you require a version bump?
16:42	technomancy	djwonk: yeah
16:43	djwonk	immutability FTW. i like it
16:43	gfredericks	I think I assumed it was already that way
16:43	gfredericks	especially since I locked myself out of my account that one time by pushing something
16:44	gfredericks	djwonkv2: fixed some personal bugs?
16:44	djwonkv2	actually, I was just giving myself permission to have new opinions
16:45	technomancy	haha
16:57	ppppaul	anyone have good resources for clojure.walk?
16:57	TimMc	technomancy: Isn't classic Clojars for SNAPSHOTs? Those often involve overwriting.
16:57	technomancy	TimMc: technically SNAPSHOTs are a new version every time
16:58	TimMc	hrm
16:58	TimMc	If you define it that way, then fine.
16:58	technomancy	the SNAPSHOT version is resolved to the latest timestamped version
16:58	technomancy	so nothing is overwritten
16:59	TimMc	Architecture question: I want to write an email autoresponder that crunches inbound requests and sends back the answer.
17:00	technomancy	TimMc: answer: implement ring for SMTP
17:00	TimMc	haha
17:00	TimMc	hmm
17:00	technomancy	if you don't, someone else will
17:00	TimMc	That's... actually a kind of interesting idea.
17:01	TimMc	I was thinking of how the autoresponder portion should be broken down.
17:01	technomancy	if it doesn't have middleware I'mma call the ~gourds on you
17:02	TimMc	There's some complexity that I don't know where to put: I want rate-limiting on email responses.
17:05	TimMc	I can see writing this as an email autoresponder library, as you say. Perhaps it should be more generic, like a message queue, an email retriever, and an email sender all hooked together by the main app.
17:07	abp	ppppaul: Are you still trying to 'flatten' some datastructure?
17:07	ppppaul	yeah, i'm currently using some maps and groupby
17:08	abp	So your asking about walk isn't related?
17:08	ppppaul	it is
17:08	ppppaul	i want a more general solution
17:09	ppppaul	i want to be able to pluck values from anywhere in my tree and matches a key
17:09	ppppaul	*that matches a key
17:11	abp	Hm ok, I used an atom to collect things of interest while walking.
17:11	ppppaul	i was thinking about that
17:11	ppppaul	i thought there may be a functional approach
17:12	ppppaul	i did something like this in JS without mutations
17:12	ppppaul	a year ago :(
17:13	abp	Yeah, it doesn't feel quite right.. I thought that too until I was told I should just do it.
17:14	djwonk	TimMc : maybe this can give you inspiration for SMTP middleware? https://github.com/amccloud/django-firstclass/
17:15	ppppaul	adp it's probably much faster to use an atom, at least
17:15	ppppaul	there would be tons of transformations for flattening a tree
17:21	ferd	help: I cannot find a clean way to structure my code to support multiple DB implementations
17:21	technomancy	ferd: is your code a library or an application?
17:21	ferd	multimethods and protocols give me runtime polimorphism... but in this case that's not really what I need. What I'm thinking of is a may to have a single db namespace that the app uses, and then backend namespaces (db.postgres, db.mem, etc)... and at init time somehow populate the former with the vars of one of the latter. Am I clear?
17:21	ferd	an app
17:22	technomancy	application portability across database implementations is a myth
17:22	technomancy	for nontrivial applications
17:22	technomancy	it looks easy, but it's impossible to do well.
17:22	ferd	technomancy: I mostly agree... but my question is more general
17:23	ferd	I mean, the same question goes for DBs, queuing transports, etc
17:23	technomancy	oh I see. yeah, you sort of want a circular dependency
17:23	technomancy	that's one of my least favourite things about multimethods =\
17:23	ferd	mmm no, why do you say circular?
17:24	technomancy	well, you have the namespace that contains the defmulti and you have the defmethod implementations in namespaces that require the defmulti namespace
17:24	technomancy	but you want application code to be able to just require the defmulti and have the defmethods available automatically
17:25	ferd	right... but besides that, multimethods don't feel right. What's the dispatch function? a constant ?
17:25	technomancy	one way to do it is to have the defmulti namespace search the classpath for all namespaces under a given pattern (myapp.db.*) and require them all at the end of the namespace.
17:25	technomancy	nothing wrong with using config-based constantly in your dispatch fn
17:26	ferd	I don't really need runtime dispatch... I was hoping for something simple, like ... I wish I could load a namespace (say db.postgresql) under the name of another (db)
17:27	ferd	...well, if you say that there's nothing wrong with using config-based constantly as dispatch fn, then I don't feel that bad :-)
17:28	technomancy	it's been a while since I've worked on a large application in Clojure. there are probably others here with differing opinions, but I didn't find it bad.
17:28	ferd	I do find it a bit weird
17:29	ferd	another thought was: define a dbprotocol, then have each db.xyz implement it, and then somehow create "wrapper" functions in namespace db, which just call the protocol functions on the db "impl" instance (am I clear?)
17:30	technomancy	you could also use alter-var-root to change the interface defn to whatever the current config happens to point at
17:30	technomancy	IMO protocols are a terrible fit for this because they impose themselves on your arglist
17:30	technomancy	the alter-var-root approach would be faster if that matters
17:30	ferd	that's why I'm saying to wrap them
17:32	technomancy	it's a bit odd but if you're using it only at application boot I'd say it's kosher
17:32	abp	ferd: I've heard of someone that they are doing querying through middlewares to concrete datastores. So you always have a request to some storage and a response, just like ring for the web.
17:35	ferd2	technomancy: damn... I lost power here and lost our conversation
17:35	technomancy	ferd2: just missed this: it's a bit odd but if you're using it only at application boot I'd say it's kosher
17:35	technomancy	and <abp> ferd: I've heard of someone that they are doing querying through middlewares to concrete datastores. So you always have a request to some storage and a response, just like ring for the web.
17:36	TimMc	technomancy: Oh, as for Clojars overwriting... is this going to be problematic for the snapshots/releases distinction? I don't want to bump the version just to sign a jar.
17:36	technomancy	TimMc: hm... good point; I hadn't thought of that
17:36	technomancy	what if we used the presence of the signature to block redeploys?
17:39	TimMc	technomancy: How about only blocking overwrites when a jar has been promoted?
17:40	technomancy	TimMc: that's what we currently do. I'd like to be able to make the call based on the state of the repository alone rather than bringing a DB into it though.
17:40	TimMc	I see.
17:40	technomancy	brainstorming: http://p.hagelb.org/clojars-events.html
17:42	abp	ferd2: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
17:43	technomancy	what's the possessive of Clojars?
17:44	technomancy	Clojars's?
17:44	clojurebot	next-gen clojars is http://groups.google.com/group/clojars-maintainers/browse_thread/thread/77c1cd77e478bb0f
17:44	technomancy	thanks clojurebot you're a pal
17:44	abp	technomancy, why are you using sqlite for Clojars? Have seen some of your struggle with the drivers etc.
17:44	technomancy	abp: it wasn't my choice
17:44	technomancy	if I had known about these issues I would have rewritten the DB layer much sooner
17:44	abp	To much work to use something else now?
17:45	technomancy	abp: I thought we could work around the flaws, but I no longer think that's a good idea.
17:45	technomancy	abp: http://p.hagelb.org/clojars-events.html <- my current plan
17:45	ferd	abp: thanks
17:47	abp	technomancy, so why aren't you guys considering datomic? Lucene indexing is a property of attributes for instance.
17:47	technomancy	I would really hate for Clojars not to be fully OSS
17:47	technomancy	Lucene is really fantastic technology
17:49	abp	Haven't done anything with Lucene, the same goes for datomic besides tampering. But in the light of it's advancements insisting on being 100% OS is probably not the best choice. Pro licenses are also available for free to OS-projects, I think.
17:49	mak3r	hey guys, anyone know the best way to explore the friend test mock app, in a jetty instance ?
17:51	ferd	abp: do you know of any app in production using datomic?
17:54	abp	ferd: Actually nothing despite OS-projects. But we'll probably use it for an upcoming project at work over the next months.
17:54	mak3r	ferd: we've got a product in pilot with datomic, and two to go live beginning of Feb
17:56	mak3r	ferd: one with a well known multinational (not able to divulge just yet)
17:56	mpan	mak3r: how has the experience been? compared vs a more traditional database?
17:56	ferd	I'm very tempted to use datomic on a new project... but I see little case stories.
17:56	mpan	any particular big ideas you guys ran into?
17:57	mpan	and if you don't mind me asking, what was your motivation for choosing it?
17:57	mak3r	ferd: I'll put something together once it is official
17:57	mak3r	mpan: a great experience, does as it says on the tin for us so far
17:58	abp	mak3r: regarding your friend question: I just built a app with form-auth myself to try it. The examples didn't exist then but it was easy.
17:58	mak3r	mpan: I'd say we feel liberated now we are not constrained by more traditional features of RDBMS
17:58	ferd	mak3r: which backend are you using? dynamo? I was wondering of the option of using the embedded h2 is solid for production
17:58	mpan	mak3r: any specific examples of constraints you no longer have?
17:59	mpan	I'm curious because, personally, I'm happy with traditional RDBMSes, but I'm not sure how much of that is just due to not having seen much of what else is out there
17:59	mak3r	ferd: atm just in memory, have tested on dynamo and will switch to it soon as we exit pilot, for the bespoke projects I mentioned will be Riak
17:59	mak3r	abp: awesome... got any pointers on the process with friend ?
18:00	abp	mpan: That sounds like you've never seen a schema getting over-complicated just by relational constraints.
18:00	mak3r	mpan: tying attributes and reusing across entities is awesome
18:00	mpan	abp: I've mostly seen constraints-enforced-at-application-level, so sorry but I'm not sure what you're referring to
18:00	abp	abp: It wasn't more than a simple test. Auth, eat your cookie and you are in. Nothing in production.
18:01	abp	mpan: ^
18:01	mak3r	mpan: its very fluid, the only anchor being datatype on a given attribute (at least the only one that really can cause problems)
18:01	abp	mak3r: ^
18:01	abp	autocompletion and mistyping is hitting me hard. :D
18:01	mak3r	haha, no worries
18:02	mpan	the other thing I'm wondering is: are there other database systems with similar properties?
18:02	mpan	something for a frame of reference?
18:02	abp	mpan: I was referring to more abstract or complex models being laid out in a relational fashion. It just doesn't work, produces SQL-bandworms and isn't generally healthy for developers minds..
18:03	mak3r	mpan: its half way between relational and key/value
18:03	mak3r	mpan: I think there _will_ be clones, but right now it is new territory
18:04	mpan	thanks guys
18:04	mak3r	no problem
18:05	TimMc	djwonk: I'm not taking technomancy's bait. Someone else can do the ring-for-email thing.
18:05	technomancy	abp: you're free to your opinion, but clojars will always be 100% oss as long as I can help it
18:05	TimMc	I already shaved one yak for this project.
18:07	abp	technomancy, weren't trying to insult you or something. I just don't get that mindset, I think. You live of some closed source too, don't you? Along the way you and your company can produce OS. So without proprietary things and their usage there wouldn't be as much OS..
18:12	technomancy	actually all the projects I'm working on at work are creating OSS replacements for proprietary code
18:12	AimHere	You are Stealing From America!
18:12	hyPiRion	technomancy: Oh, that reminds me, do you actually develop OSS for a living?
18:13	technomancy	I understand there are some codebases where that's more difficult due to work, but I sure am not going to contribute to that when it's up to me.
18:13	arrdem	AimHere: aiming...
18:13	mak3r	technomancy: lucky, sounds awesome... I've always had too much commercial pressure to go that route
18:13	technomancy	especially not when I'm not getting paid for it =)
18:13	technomancy	hyPiRion: yeah
18:13	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/sokoban, https://github.com/nzoschke/code, https://github.com/heroku/buildkits
18:14	hyPiRion	technomancy: That explains stuff, and it also makes me envy
18:24	abp	Ok, so we probably should try to get Rich, Stuart & co to start a hosting business so they can open source datomic. ;)
18:25	TimMc	heh
18:26	amalloy	technomancy: yeah, clojars's
18:27	technomancy	amalloy: thanks =)
18:29	technomancy	in this case the data model is so simple that I don't think it'd be much work to implement with a log file and lucene
18:29	technomancy	there are literally only three events
18:30	ravster	whats the setting to have paredit autoloaded with clojure-mode in emacs? I can't seem to find the right command.
18:30	technomancy	event types
18:30	technomancy	ravster: (add-hook 'clojure-mode-hook 'paredit-hook)
18:31	ravster	technomancy: thanks
18:36	technomancy	hyPiRion: FWIW I spend more time maintaining the existing projects than actively replacing them, but I'm grateful that I have the chance to do so
18:37	hyPiRion	Still better than closed source
18:37	hyPiRion	At least I find OSS more fun to work with, maybe that changes if it's your job.
18:38	technomancy	heh; well the clojure is more fun than the ruby either way
18:38	Sgeo	I guess I'd have more of a chance of finding a job that uses Clojure than one that uses Racket?
18:39	TimMc	Yeah.
18:40	technomancy	maybe unless you work for MIT or something =)
18:40	TimMc	I've seen job postings for Clojure developers.
18:40	TimMc	technomancy: NEU is more likely for Racket.
18:40	technomancy	what's that?
18:41	TimMc	Northeastern University
18:41	TimMc	At least 2 of the Racket devs teach there.
18:41	TimMc	At MIT I would expect MIT Scheme. :-)
18:41	zilti	When I start studying I have to go back to the Java nightmare...
18:41	Sgeo	zilti, my condolences
18:41	technomancy	doesn't MIT have like three schemes?
18:43	zilti	Sgeo: There was a time I really really liked Java. Because it was the only language I knew.
18:44	TimMc	zilti: It was pretty fantastic coming from TI-89 Basic. :-P
18:44	Sgeo	zilti, I think you could say something like that about me and Python. Python wasn't the only language I knew, but it was the only language that seemed to be free for me to use
18:44	Sgeo	Although hmm, I know I've read about Java before then
18:45	zilti	I hated Python after the first time I had to re-indent a 200-line source file by hand.
18:45	Sgeo	I never had to do that
18:45	Sgeo	However, now I can't really stand the broken lambda synta
18:45	Sgeo	syntax
18:45	amalloy	zilti: i think you mean you hated your editor? surely doing it by hand is never necessary
18:46	technomancy	don't you have to do it by hand when there are merge conflicts?
18:46	amalloy	i dunno. i don't actually write any python, i'm just a busybody
18:46	arrdem	amalloy: no.. I had an argument about this a while back. If indentation is syntactically significant then loss thereof constitutes a loss of information and therefore cannot be reconstructed by a computer.
18:47	arrdem	with a gurantee of correctness at least.
18:47	zilti	amalloy: It's problematic enough that such a thing depends on your editor.
18:49	zilti	Hmm I forgot the name of the editor and can't find it. It was a pretty popular one (I think), basically just an Editor with syntax highlighting and a REPL.
18:49	arrdem	was it Idle? that's the standard packged python editor/repl...
18:50	zilti	Oh, yes. That was it. Well, python.org seems to be down.
18:58	arrdem	,(doc rename)
18:58	clojurebot	Huh?
19:01	arrdem	is there an idiomatic way to update several functional objects at once? right now I'm trying to build a map, then update-in on each step and it isn't behaving nicely.
19:04	AimHere	nested update-ins should work, though it's not pretty, for sure
19:05	AimHere	I'd guess that building something out of reduce would be the neatest answer
19:06	AimHere	Something along the lines of (reduce #(apply update-in %1 %2) initial-map [keyvec1 keyvec2 keyvec3 ...])
19:07	AimHere	minus the 'apply
19:07	hyPiRion	not minus the apply.
19:07	AimHere	Isn't it (update-in map vec) ?
19:07	arrdem	this is what I've cooked up... https://www.refheap.com/paste/8133
19:07	arrdem	AimHere: it's (update-in map path fn & args)
19:08	hyPiRion	,(reduce (partial apply update-in) {:a 1, :b 2} [[[:a] inc] [[:b] + 3]])
19:08	clojurebot	{:a 2, :b 5}
19:08	AimHere	Oops yes. I'm confused with get-in
19:21	TimMc	technomancy: Have you made signed jars for any of your projects yet? If so, have you self-signed or used a CA?
19:24	technomancy	TimMc: PGP doesn't really have CAs afaik
19:24	technomancy	it operates under a web of trust model
19:24	TimMc	Oh, hmmm... right.
19:24	technomancy	TimMc: `lein deploy clojars` should automatically try to sign artifacts before deploying them
19:25	TimMc	Does it prompt for key choice? I don't want it to use my regular key.
19:25	technomancy	hmm... I don't think we've added that yet. definitely an oversight.
19:25	hyPiRion	yeah
19:26	hyPiRion	I think I had to specify key last time I used it
19:26	technomancy	there are definitely edge cases that haven't been thought through
19:27	TimMc	hyPiRion: Oh, that's fine then.
19:27	TimMc	As long as it doesn't grab .ssh/id_rsa and run with it.
19:28	hyPiRion	oh right, I thought you meant GPG.
19:28	TimMc	Derp, those are RSA keys.
19:29	technomancy	clojars only uses ssh for scp deploy, I've been recommending lein deploy over scp.
19:31	bbloom	apparently print-meta doesn't work for vectors?
19:32	bbloom	or maybe it sometimes doesn't work? or maybe i have a bug....
19:32	bbloom	lol
19:32	bbloom	,(let [v ^:v [] m ^:m {}] (binding [print-meta true] (prn v m)))
19:32	clojurebot	^{:v true} [] ^{:m true} {}
19:33	hyPiRion	Well, that seems to work.
19:33	ravster	I'm using data.zip.xml and its turning a <Number> into a character. How do I force it to be a string?
19:33	bbloom	it seems to be something special with the :type value
19:34	bbloom	er key
19:35	bbloom	or maybe i'm just going crazy...
19:35	arrdem	(assoc-in [0] [0] 1)
19:35	arrdem	,(assoc-in [0] [0] 1)
19:35	clojurebot	[1]
19:36	bbloom	https://www.refheap.com/paste/8134
19:36	bbloom	hyPiRion: see that ^^ wtf?
19:36	bbloom	lol
19:39	TimMc	Hey, why does lein2 want my clojars password?
19:39	hyPiRion	bbloom: Reproduceable
19:39	TimMc	deploy doesn't use SSH?
19:40	bbloom	hyPiRion: ok, so i'm not crazy? :-)
19:40	hyPiRion	bbloom: It omits :type for some reason
19:41	bbloom	hyPiRion: hmm, seems to be intentional behavior
19:41	bbloom	confusing as hell
19:41	TimMc	(def x (with-meta [1 2 3 4] {:type :foo :bar :baz}))
19:41	TimMc	(binding [print-meta true] (pr-str x)) ;;= "^{:bar :baz} [1 2 3 4]"
19:41	hyPiRion	bbloom: whut, why?
19:42	bbloom	hyPiRion: why is it intentional? or why is it confusing?
19:42	hyPiRion	intentional
19:42	bbloom	i have no idea....
19:42	bbloom	maybe because that's what print-dup is about?
19:43	hyPiRion	shrug
19:43	bbloom	kinda sucks though b/c it's baked into print-method :default
19:43	bbloom	soo if you write your own print-method, you need to know about that subtle behavior and replicate it
19:44	TimMc	I'm not going to mess with all this gpg-agent and credentials.clj stuff. Too complicated.
19:46	TimMc	(I'm not trying to be bitchy; it's just more than I feel I should have to deal with to release stuff.)
19:46	cjfrisz	evening, folks
19:47	bbloom	TimMc: i agree with you to some extent. it was surprisingly complicated to set up on my previous mac, so i just didn't bother on my new machine
19:49	hyPiRion	TimMc: I agree with that
19:51	bbloom	i can't tell how i feel about metadata in general
19:51	bbloom	sometimes, it's fantastic
19:51	bbloom	sometimes, it's annoying as hell
19:51	bbloom	particulary things like :tag and :type
19:51	eipi10	,(first '("foo"))
19:51	clojurebot	"foo"
19:52	bbloom	some operations preserve metadata, others don't
19:52	bbloom	you need to really think about it or just try it before you know whether or not you'll get metadata preserved
19:52	bbloom	and then sometimes you want the opposite of whatever the operation does
19:55	tomoj	1.5 reportedly improves metadata preservation
19:55	tomoj	probably still some problems left
19:55	ravster	How do I make sure that all the values of a map are strings, and if not, turn them into strings? I'm wondering if there is already a function that does something like that.
19:56	bbloom	tomoj: glad to hear, i found CLJ-916
19:56	tomoj	there is no such function
19:56	tomoj	in 1.5, (reduce-kv #(assoc %1 %2 (str %3)) {} a-map) could work
19:57	tomoj	hopefully someday (but not today): (into-kv {} (r/map str a-map))
19:57	ravster	hmm, I just found map-values in clojure.contrib.datalog.util
19:57	bbloom	ravster: (into {} (for [[k v] a-map] [k (str v]))
19:57	bbloom	or, in light of the metadata discussion:
19:58	bbloom	(into a-map (for [[k v] a-map] [k (str v]))
19:58	bbloom	to preserve the metadata lol
19:58	ravster	nice
19:58	bbloom	i'm missing a ) in there
19:58	bbloom	i should avoid coding in my IRC window...
20:00	ravster	hehe
20:02	ravster	thanks bbloom, the into works great.
20:02	seangrove	Is there an (or this that) that will return 'this' if 'this' is false and not nil?
20:02	seangrove	(if (nil? this) that this)
20:02	gfredericks	nope
20:03	seangrove	Ok, no problem
20:35	gfredericks	I don't imagine cljsbuild provides any mechanism for extending the compiler at runtime?
20:36	bbloom	gfredericks: extending it in what way?
20:38	gfredericks	bbloom: e.g., extending some of the multimethods
20:38	bbloom	analyze and emit ?
20:38	gfredericks	which kind of implies "running arbitrary code before the compiler gets called"
20:38	gfredericks	yeah those sort
20:38	bbloom	i doubt cljsbuild offers that... but i'm not entirely sure how it would be useful. what's your use case?
20:39	gfredericks	numbers!
20:39	bbloom	numbers?
20:39	clojurebot	(pl reverse $ (↕reduce range $ 10 () λxy (↕conj inc $ y x)))
20:39	gfredericks	bigints and ratios specifically
20:39	bbloom	are you adding support for bigints and ratios to cljs ?
20:40	bbloom	if so, why not just run a patched version of the compiler?
20:40	bbloom	it's pretty easy to use a local checkout
20:40	bbloom	and then contribute those :-)
20:40	gfredericks	I thought I'd start off with a lib
20:40	gfredericks	every time I talked to dnolen about it it sounded rather difficult to get it in
20:41	bbloom	gfredericks: did he specify why? perf?
20:41	gfredericks	perf and design questions I think
20:41	gfredericks	I started up a design page about it
20:41	bbloom	yeah, i'm reasoning about the design now....
20:41	bbloom	i suspect that perf would suck unless you opted in to it
20:41	dnolen	bbloom: gfredericks: fwiw even Dart has punted on this
20:41	bbloom	heh
20:41	dnolen	and think about how much money they're spending on that
20:42	gfredericks	opt-in would be fine with me, as long as it's opt-in for the whole program
20:42	gfredericks	so you can use all the regular functions
20:42	bbloom	gfredericks: well, that's sorta the problem
20:42	bbloom	if it's opt in to the whole program, it makes all non ratios slower too
20:42	bbloom	b/c you suddenly need generic + and friends
20:43	gfredericks	yep
20:43	dnolen	gfredericks: opt-in for the whole programs doesn't make much sense. Since you would tank the performance of the core library as well.
20:43	bbloom	gfredericks: i think you're better off starting with a lib that doesn't impact the reader in any way
20:43	gfredericks	was there an idea about having primitive versions, like +' *', etc?
20:43	bbloom	ie just provide a factory function (ratio 5 10)
20:43	gfredericks	bbloom: well I can even write a macro that enables the literals
20:43	gfredericks	bbloom: I already have this lib
20:43	dnolen	gfredericks: no because that would be backwards from Clojure JVM
20:44	gfredericks	dnolen: okay +''' and *''' then :P
20:44	bbloom	gfredericks: so then go with the macro, don't bother with patching the cljs env
20:44	dnolen	gfredericks: I don't see why you don't just do you're own generic math lib. what's the problem?
20:44	gfredericks	I am doing it; I started with a question about how to make it nicer to use
20:44	dnolen	gfredericks: ok sorry missed that.
20:44	gfredericks	i.e., not requiring a top-level macro to use literals
20:45	tomoj	can't you just put the defmethods in the macro ns and :require-macros it?
20:46	bbloom	seems like a bad idea to mutate the compiler.... you'd have to disable your changes as well to prevent breaking libraries that don't expect it
20:46	bbloom	at which point you'd have (enable-literals!) and (disable-literals!)
20:46	bbloom	and might as well have (with-literals-macro ...)
20:46	bbloom	maybe turning it on for a namespace? shrug
20:46	tomoj	if the library is a staging ground for a compiler patch, why not mutate the compiler?
20:48	bbloom	tomoj: because the library is useful without the literals, etc, is it not?
20:48	bbloom	tomoj: might as well publish that
20:48	bbloom	and then we have a basis from which to discuss the complexities of fast numerics
20:48	bbloom	are you modifying all of the core functions too? :-/
20:49	arrdem	,(doc reduce)
20:49	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f val coll]); f should be a function of 2 arguments. If val is not supplied, returns the result of applying f to the first 2 items in coll, then applying f to that result and the 3rd item, etc. If coll contains no items, f must accept no arguments as well, and reduce returns the result of calling f with no arguments. If coll has only 1 item, it is returned and f is not called. If val i...
20:49	gfredericks	bbloom: what libraries would rely on numeric literals not compiling?
20:50	bbloom	gfredericks: i don't think anyone would break unless you had a bug or they depended on undefined behavior
20:50	bbloom	gfredericks: but their perf would surely suck unexpectedly :-P
20:50	gfredericks	not modifying core functions, just making 7/5 compile to (ratio 7 5)
20:50	gfredericks	so shouldn't effect exterior perf either
20:51	gfredericks	external*
20:51	bbloom	,(+ 2 5/7)
20:51	clojurebot	19/7
20:51	bbloom	that wouldn't work even with your patch right?
20:51	gfredericks	depends what + refers to
20:51	gfredericks	I have my own +
20:51	bbloom	does your compiler "plugin" sub in your + or do you have to manually :refer that ?
20:52	gfredericks	the latter
20:52	gfredericks	so it's lib-style
20:52	bbloom	yeah, so then there isn't much benefit and a bunch of confusion in having literals
20:52	gfredericks	isn't much benefit?
20:52	gfredericks	why do we have them in clojure?
20:52	bbloom	the literals don't compile to (cljs.core/ratio 5 7) they compile to (your.lib/ratio 5 7)
20:53	bbloom	the literals are in clojure b/c they are well integrated
20:53	gfredericks	:/ okay
20:53	bbloom	i'm not trying to shit on your work... i would love to see ratios in cljs
20:53	bbloom	but dnolen is right: it's a haaaard problem to do well
20:54	bbloom	the JVM happened to already have solved this to some extent with good perf on the Number type, etc.. .and even then i believe JVM clojure had some numerics struggles & still does
20:54	gfredericks	I wasn't trying to integrate them into cljs, I was trying to have my lib extend the compiler for convenience. But I see why that my be sneaky.
20:54	gfredericks	may*
20:54	bbloom	gfredericks: yeah, i'd avoid extending the compiler in any transparent way
20:55	bbloom	it's potentially possible that clojure could have some kind of namespace level flags thing for compiler plugins
20:55	bbloom	like a :plugins key in the ns form
20:55	gfredericks	that sounds interesting
20:56	bbloom	but that would likely be shunned in the same was as :use
20:56	bbloom	as too much magic :-P
20:56	bbloom	in the meantime, you can just do (my-wrapping-macro-thinggie ...)
20:56	gfredericks	yep
20:56	bbloom	or maybe the equivilent of warn-on-reflection
20:57	gfredericks	how does that work with cljs?
20:57	bbloom	some macro that expands (enable-ratios!) to (defmethod emit ...) and (set! ratios-enabled true)
20:57	bbloom	gfredericks: it doesn't
20:57	bbloom	but you can have macros that just expand to nil and then have side effects in the compiler
20:57	bbloom	if you really insisted on getting the syntax support
20:57	gfredericks	ah right
20:57	bbloom	but really, it seems sketchy as hell to me :-)
20:58	gfredericks	you can't undefmethod though
20:58	gfredericks	can you?
20:58	bbloom	(doc remove-method)
20:58	clojurebot	"([multifn dispatch-val]); Removes the method of multimethod associated with dispatch-value."
20:58	gfredericks	now if only you could defmethod in a thread-local way
20:58	bbloom	but you wouldn't want to do that, you'd want to install the method only once and then have a flag to enable/disable it
20:58	arrdem	,(let [{odd false even true} (group-by odd? (range 5))] (println odd even))
20:58	clojurebot	[0 2 4] [1 3]
20:58	bbloom	hence the flag
20:58	bbloom	you (def ^:dynamic enable-ratios false)
20:59	bbloom	and then use binding on that
20:59	gfredericks	bbloom: that still changes the behavior while the flag is off, technically :P
20:59	tomoj	except it needs to be a, uh, special var?
20:59	bbloom	gfredericks: yeah, but at least it won't fuck anyone up
20:59	gfredericks	seems unlikely to fuck anybody up more in either case
20:59	tomoj	like unchecked-if ?
20:59	bbloom	yeah, this is basically how unchecked-if works... i believe
21:00	tomoj	well I guess you can just have a macro that sets the var clj-side
21:00	bbloom	tomoj: yeah that's what i'm suggesting
21:00	bbloom	tomoj: this is my complaint about the top level again...
21:00	bbloom	dnolen: (when false (def x 1)) :-(
21:00	tomoj	seems like that would be a better way to do unchecked-if too
21:01	bbloom	the right way to do it would be to define the top level at compile time and require a main function :-)
21:01	bbloom	but that's a pretty dramatic change to clojure semantics
21:10	gfredericks	hmmm. how do I get the /src-cljs into the jar again? add it to :source-paths?
21:11	bbloom	i just symlink my clojurescript checkout into my project directory
21:11	gfredericks	I mean for jarring up my lib
21:11	gfredericks	I just got the /src and not the /src-cljs
21:11	bbloom	oh, havent done that yet, no idea :-P
21:11	bbloom	ask technomancy
21:12	tomoj	src-cljs or src/cljs?
21:12	tomoj	I have :source-paths ["src/clj" "src/cljs" "clojurescript/src/clj" "clojurescript/src/cljs"]
21:12	tomoj	oh the src-cljs is yours, huh
21:13	gfredericks	the :source-paths made it work
21:22	arrdem	,(doc source)
21:22	clojurebot	"([n]); Prints the source code for the given symbol, if it can find it. This requires that the symbol resolve to a Var defined in a namespace for which the .clj is in the classpath. Example: (source filter)"
21:22	gfredericks	,(source doc)
21:22	clojurebot	Source not found
21:22	xeqi	,(source source)
21:22	clojurebot	Source not found
21:23	gfredericks	,(doc doc)
21:23	clojurebot	"([name]); Prints documentation for a var or special form given its name"
21:23	gfredericks	,(partial partial)
21:23	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$partial>
21:23	gfredericks	dangit
21:23	xeqi	,(identity identity)
21:23	clojurebot	#<core$identity clojure.core$identity@4349f1b6>
21:23	dnolen	bbloom: what happens w/ that?
21:23	dnolen	bbloom: (when false ...)
21:23	gfredericks	let's figure out how many functions/macros can meaningfully be passed to themselves
21:23	gfredericks	dnolen: it emits the def unconditionally
21:23	arrdem	damnit guys I was being serious
21:24	gfredericks	arrdem: that doesn't mean it isn't fun
21:24	arrdem	oh I'm laughing.
21:24	arrdem	,(println println)
21:24	clojurebot	#<core$println clojure.core$println@33666bf5>
21:24	gfredericks	dnolen: or so I've heard
21:24	bbloom	dnolen: yup, what gfredericks said
21:25	gfredericks	,(delay delay)
21:25	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/delay, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
21:25	tomoj	&((((partial partial partial) map) inc) [1 2 3])
21:25	lazybot	⇒ (2 3 4)
21:25	bbloom	on the JVM, top levels are executed on module load
21:25	arrdem	(inc tomoj)
21:25	lazybot	⇒ 5
21:25	gfredericks	tomoj: that's awful
21:25	bbloom	same thing for clojure script, but since there is no def at runtime, that's a problem
21:25	bbloom	what you really want is for top levels to be executed on module compilation
21:25	bbloom	in the compilation enviornment
21:26	tomoj	gfredericks: it's kind of useful, since clojure.core/map etc are not curried
21:26	bbloom	dnolen: hence the :-( face
21:26	xeqi	gfredericks: not a fan of point-free style?
21:26	bbloom	xeqi: not in clojure :-P
21:26	bbloom	or at least, not like that
21:26	gfredericks	xeqi: oh now I have to dig through my gists
21:26	tomoj	(def curry-seq-fn (partial partial partial))
21:27	cjfrisz	I always feel guilty when I work through unhelpful Clojure error messages and only realize afterward that I should have documented what I did
21:27	tomoj	also WHY aren't they curried? :(
21:27	cjfrisz	Cuz I certainly don't remember all the steps now
21:27	gfredericks	xeqi: https://gist.github.com/967464
21:28	xeqi	gfredericks: heh
21:30	tomoj	wait, what?
21:30	tomoj	&(partial partial)
21:30	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$partial
21:30	tomoj	..since when?
21:30	gfredericks	it used to not?
21:31	tomoj	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/c85617be
21:32	gfredericks	haha partial is identity
21:33	gfredericks	that could make for some nice obfuscated code
21:33	gfredericks	&clojure-version
21:33	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
21:33	gfredericks	,clojure-version
21:33	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
21:33	amalloy	tomoj: committed five months ago? that's after 1.4 for sure, right?
21:34	gfredericks	haha yept (partial 42) returns 42
21:34	amalloy	gfredericks: my dream come true! i can now (map (juxt partial :name) coll)
21:34	gfredericks	SWEET
21:35	gfredericks	partial now preferred over identity for shorter spelling
21:39	amalloy	indeed, partial now joins deliver in the ranks of "easily misleading functions"
21:39	arrdem	,(doc deliver)
21:39	clojurebot	"([promise val]); Alpha - subject to change. Delivers the supplied value to the promise, releasing any pending derefs. A subsequent call to deliver on a promise will throw an exception."
21:40	amalloy	if you have a 1.5 repl handy, try to mix-n-match with (deliver partial :x)
21:41	gfredericks	so you're saying that we could replace identity with (partial deliver partial)?
21:42	gfredericks	as well as (partial deliver (partial deliver partial))
21:42	gfredericks	the fun never stops
21:45	amalloy	you're a monster
21:46	gfredericks	core.logic would be a good way to implement an obfuscation lib
21:47	gfredericks	(defn identityo [x expr] (conde [(== x expr)] [(== x ['partial 'deliver x])] ...))
21:51	gfredericks	"I don't care much for proper error handling; I'm a Clojure programmer at heart."
21:52	TimMc	technomancy: If we're going to be using a web-of-trust signing architecture, we should be exchanging PGP keys at Clojure meetups. :-)
21:53	arrdem	,(dec (Float. "Infinity"))
21:53	clojurebot	Infinity
21:54	arrdem	Okay.. which is less evil: having a refcount of Infinity, or adding control logic so that you can't refdec some refs?
21:56	tomoj	refdec?
21:58	gfredericks	tomoj: opposite of refinc
21:59	gfredericks	which is like finc but for if you have already called finc
22:02	tomoj	for a second I thought that was the actual answer :)
22:02	gfredericks	(defn finc [f x] (f (inc x)))
22:02	gfredericks	(def refinc finc)
22:03	arrdem	,(>= 0 (dec (Long. "Infinity")))
22:03	clojurebot	#<NumberFormatException java.lang.NumberFormatException: For input string: "Infinity">
22:03	arrdem	,(>= 0 (dec (Float. "Infinity")))
22:03	clojurebot	false
22:04	arrdem	gfredericks: https://github.com/arrdem/OoOP/blob/ea5e33e9b924c2ee1e45b5df364eef90b56527d3/src/final/gc_map.clj
22:05	arrdem	because I'm a party pooper.
22:08	gfredericks	arrdem: so you have certain refs that shouldn't be dec'able?
22:09	arrdem	gfredericks: yeah... I got that solved but basically I have a map that represents the register state of the simulator and I refcount the temporary registers but not the architectural ones.
22:48	nodename	Why does seq? return false on a vector?
22:49	bbloom	(doc sequential?)
22:49	gfredericks	there's a distinction between something being a seq and something being seqable
22:49	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll implements Sequential"
22:49	bbloom	(doc seq?)
22:49	clojurebot	"([x]); Return true if x implements ISeq"
22:49	bbloom	(doc seq)
22:49	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a seq on the collection. If the collection is empty, returns nil. (seq nil) returns nil. seq also works on Strings, native Java arrays (of reference types) and any objects that implement Iterable."
22:50	bbloom	(map (juxt seq? sequential?) [(list 1 2 3) (vector 1 2 3)])
22:50	bbloom	,(map (juxt seq? sequential?) [(list 1 2 3) (vector 1 2 3)])
22:50	clojurebot	([true true] [false true])
22:50	gfredericks	Sequential is an empty interface?
22:50	bbloom	,(map (juxt seq? sequential?) [(list 1 2 3) (vector 1 2 3) {:x 1} (seq {:x 1})])
22:50	clojurebot	([true true] [false true] [false false] [true true])
22:50	amalloy	yes
22:51	amalloy	gfredericks: otherwise how would you tell vectors and maps apart?
22:51	gfredericks	I think halloway once said that the best API is one with zero functions
22:51	gfredericks	amalloy: by staring
22:51	amalloy	ah, the (str x) approach to type dispatch
22:51	gfredericks	amalloy: or better yet, by (comp first pr-str)
22:52	gfredericks	er. like you thought I said.
22:54	gfredericks	(defmulti sequential? (comp first pr-str)) (defmethod sequential? \( [_] true) (defmethod sequential? \[ [_] true) (defmethod sequential? \{ [_] false)
22:55	gfredericks	somebody's gotta write this code.
23:09	arrdem	,(doc update-in)
23:09	clojurebot	"([m [k & ks] f & args]); 'Updates' a value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys and f is a function that will take the old value and any supplied args and return the new value, and returns a new nested structure. If any levels do not exist, hash-maps will be created."
23:28	technomancy	TimMc: I was key-signing like crazy at the Conj =)
23:28	TimMc	Cool.
23:28	technomancy	well, as much as my illness allowed
23:29	amalloy	you should have set up a key-signing robot to sign anyone's keys
23:29	TimMc	Dammit, I should have exchanged keys with cemerick when I met him at a recent meetup.
23:29	Raynes	You were a zombie at the conj, technomancy.
23:29	technomancy	amalloy: don't make me sic the gourds on you
23:29	Raynes	technomancy: I knew you were going to be doing key signing, so I purposely found a seat away from everyone so I wouldn't have to tell them to bug off.
23:35	TimMc	I just heard that song a few days ago... where's it from?
23:35	technomancy	jonathan coultron
23:38	technomancy	http://www.jonathancoulton.com/wiki/Re:_Your_Brains
23:39	technomancy	actually https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6vnM9I7HIo
23:41	bbloom	tpope: is there a flag to disable evaluating expressions without a persistent repl? i dislike the wait when i open a clj file just to look at it but don't have a repl running