#clojure – 2012-12-22

2012-12-22

00:00	technomancy	TimMc: I wonder how many json parsers would just be completely cool if you threw them commented json
00:00	callen	rking: why would an "end user" be configuring something like lazybot?
00:00	Raynes	rking: Since when are we talking about end-user configuration? I was talking about configuration languages.
00:00	rking	callen: Almost none. I've typed a few lines into lein. I just saw the config-lang discussion, which is a topic I have a few thoughts about.
00:00	callen	technomancy: none of the standards compliant ones.
00:00	technomancy	callen: the standard sucks, in this particular area =)
00:00	callen	rking: what config languages and systems do you have experience with?
00:00	callen	technomancy: I know that, jus' sayin'
00:00	technomancy	completely stupid
00:00	Raynes	rking: You can also put any code in that configuration file as long as it evaluates to a map. It's a real configuration language, dude.
00:00	rking	The example was of the faux XML like Apache, no?
00:00	ibdknox	has anyone tried doing a comment preserving version of the reader?
00:01	technomancy	callen: actually, does the standard actually specify what you're required to reject?
00:01	TimMc	technomancy: He was not friendly when I told him he shouldn't describe JSON as a proper subset of JS -- it doesn't handle some nonprinting chars the same way.
00:01	rking	callen: I generally like YAML config languages, perhaps processed through ERb if it's really necessary.
00:01	Raynes	He just in general isn't friendly. I'm damn offended. I'm going to have to leave now to cool off.
00:01	seangrove	technomancy: eh? I might have missed something...
00:01	callen	rking: yeah I have a hard time believing you'd have any issue with clojure configs then.
00:01	technomancy	seangrove: oh, I thought your "dec" comment was re: not writing in C =)
00:02	seangrove	Ah, sorry, hah
00:02	seangrove	I thought we were affecting the ether
00:02	Raynes	Whoa, callen and I might agree on something. Maybe the Mayans were right.
00:02	callen	technomancy: I don't think so, but the default behavior seems to be to reject anything and everything that isn't an explicit part of the JSON spec.
00:02	callen	Raynes: we agreed on grove.io too. Don't act so shocked.
00:03	rking	callen: It's not the end of the world or anything to use something like this, but I don't see it fitting the role of an apache config lang.
00:03	amalloy	ibdknox: i heard the guy who works on light table might be working on that
00:03	callen	rking: that's not what anyone said.
00:03	callen	amalloy: on what?
00:03	TimMc	Comment-preserving reader.
00:03	callen	oh, cool.
00:03	rking	<Raynes> technomancy: The problem is using software with custom configuration languages.
00:04	TimMc	Ideally, a reader that preserves whitespace and reader suager too...
00:04	Raynes	I stand by that. I've used nginx.
00:04	amalloy	ibdknox: seriously though, i think sjacket is the current state of the art
00:04	callen	rking: most projects don't merit it. Apache being written the way it is has little choice.
00:04	seangrove	Really? Clojure data structures (ignoring the language) seem far more straight-forward than apache config
00:04	TimMc	rking: The basic principles here are tool and skill transferability.
00:04	callen	rking: however, that doesn't excuse how awful Apache's config language is.
00:04	seangrove	But it's been several years since I even looked at an apache conf file, could be wrong now... I suppose...
00:04	amalloy	but i don't know how polished/transparent it is
00:05	rking	callen: Fair enough.
00:05	callen	rking: for pretty much all Clojure projects, a Clojure config lang makes a ton of sense.
00:05	callen	Most of the "end users" are clojure users and you don't win anything by not using Clojure.
00:05	rking	callen: Unless somebody who doesn't know Clojure is going to modify them.
00:05	callen	rking: that's a totally different scenario.
00:06	callen	rking: nobody proposed non-programmer end-users editing clojure configs.
00:06	TimMc	But a valid one.
00:06	callen	rking: we're talking about our own needs and day-to-day problems as work-a-day programmers. That's all.
00:06	TimMc	callen: I don't think that was excluded.
00:06	rking	callen: OK.
00:06	callen	rking: it was stated before that for a "true" end user you'd need to make an interface
00:06	rking	I just saw that line, "problem is using software with custom configuration languages." and pounced.
00:06	callen	but you could still be reading/writing Clojure data structures for convenience's sake if you really wanted. More likely, an embedded database or something.
00:07	rking	callen: I don't buy that. A text editor is plenty interface enough for most things.
00:07	technomancy	if you want to use something that isn't a programming language, use yaml or json
00:07	callen	rking: is it really that ahrd to edit strings?
00:07	rking	One reason being that the config tool would have its own support issues.
00:07	technomancy	even XML would be better than inventing your own faux-xml
00:07	callen	most Clojure configs are considerably simpler than say, Xmonad's configs, and Xmonad is used by a LOT of non-programmers.
00:08	rking	Now I can call BS on that one for sure.
00:08	technomancy	if you use .ini files I won't hate you, but I do reserve the right to snicker
00:08	callen	Raynes: oh by the way, went to Hiccup.
00:08	rking	I use XMonad, and when I have a problem, it takes like 3 guys on #xmonad or #haskell to sketch out a solution.
00:08	callen	rking: that's because an Xmonad config is like actual programming
00:08	rking	I had one issue in particular that took about 4 different IRC sessions, and it was such a simple task.
00:08	rking	Yes
00:08	callen	rking: that clojure config is just a flat data structure effectively, and is equivalent to JSON or YAML
00:09	callen	I've done my share of battling with Xmonad. Knowing Haskell helps. Knowing Xmonad helps more.
00:09	rking	Except that it isn't optimized for such things, the way YAML is
00:09	seangrove	I haven't used xmonad, but have been really, really wanting something like it for osx
00:09	seangrove	It seems amazing from this end
00:09	technomancy	though now my config is only 4 settings interspersed with derogatory comments at how crazy it is that these aren't default
00:09	rking	seangrove: There is osxmonad, but one limitation is that it only manages X11 apps.
00:09	technomancy	which is also a lot like what my gnome config looks like
00:09	seangrove	rking: Yeah, I don't use any x11 apps, sadly
00:10	TimMc	technomancy: You're using Debian something, yeah?
00:10	callen	Raynes: I'm starting to understand you.
00:10	technomancy	TimMc: yeah, about to make the jump to wheezy now that it's been frozen for a while
00:10	TimMc	I would like to subscribe to your get-off-my-lawn newsletter.
00:10	ibdknox	amalloy: I haven't really gotten sjacket to work :(
00:10	Raynes	callen: Isn't Hiccup the antithesis of what you wanted?
00:10	rking	seangrove: Well, if I was on OS X, I'd use urxvt as a terminal under osxmonad.
00:10	TimMc	Ubuntu is pissing me the hell off.
00:10	technomancy	TimMc: I actually considered starting to document my dotfiles the other day WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME
00:10	ibdknox	amalloy: I think it won't be hard to hack it into blind, I was just wondering if there was some prior art I shoulc look at :)
00:10	callen	Raynes: yes. frontend guy wanted to learn backend anyway. He's going to learn the fun way.
00:11	callen	Raynes: he's been mumbling about clojurescript for some time now.
00:11	amalloy	if there is, nobody's told me about it
00:11	rking	seangrove: That plus an X11 web browser would get me almost the same setup as I have now on Linux.
00:11	seangrove	rking: Meh, I use emacs
00:11	callen	Raynes: to its credit, Hiccup is more compact than actual HTML by a fair bit.
00:11	seangrove	Looks roughly equivalent
00:11	callen	Raynes: Hiccup has the benefit of not being insane like Enlive though.
00:11	technomancy	TimMc: https://github.com/technomancy/dotfiles/blob/master/.gripes.org and https://github.com/technomancy/dotfiles/tree/master/bin/init
00:11	TimMc	callen: Oh no. We're NOT going there.
00:11	ibdknox	lol
00:11	seangrove	TimMc: Yes, please stop him
00:12	rking	URL for Hiccup?
00:12	TimMc	not when I should be gong to bed
00:12	technomancy	oh dear; look at the time
00:12	squidz	technomancy: do you prefer enlive or hiccup?
00:12	callen	TimMc: I said I was sated and no longer had an issue.
00:12	callen	squidz: he doesn't do a lot of web dev.
00:12	technomancy	squidz: I find hiccup to be much more maintainable
00:12	Raynes	callen: Have you looked at Laser?
00:12	ibdknox	all of LT is in hiccup!
00:12	TimMc	technomancy: "adding a keyboard doesn’t honor caps->ctrl mod" BAIL BAIL BAIL
00:12	technomancy	but I don't want to get into a discussion right now with callen around =)
00:12	ibdknox	sort of
00:12	Raynes	callen: I'd hope you wouldn't think it totally insane.
00:12	seangrove	I feel like whenever the channel is too quite, we jsut need to mention python, Java, templating, or some combination thereof to have callen going for 45 minutes non-stop
00:12	squidz	so who is our webdev on #clojure?
00:12	Raynes	callen: It has exactly one bug that I know if at the moment.
00:12	technomancy	TimMc: welllll I'm not sure why that is
00:13	callen	Raynes: I don't believe in server-side whole-document transformation like that if it can be avoided.
00:13	TimMc	Wait, that's additional keyboards? nvm
00:13	Raynes	squidz: Well, ibdknox and I recently deprecated a web framework. I think we own this shit.
00:13	technomancy	TimMc: maybe because I fix caps lock in ~/.xsession instead of system-wide in /etc/?
00:13	Raynes	callen: Oh, sure, but I meant insane as in like code insane.
00:13	squidz	Raynes: I see, so what is the pros preference? hiccup or enlive?
00:13	technomancy	squidz: oh yeah, don't look at me for web dev advice. I have done a total of one web app in Clojure and it was 700 lines
00:13	ibdknox	squidz: depends on the situation
00:13	Raynes	squidz: Neither. I wrote my own templating library.
00:13	callen	squidz: they're used in equal measure. Depends on how you think about documents.
00:14	technomancy	TimMc: FWIW gripes.org is fairly comprehensive =)
00:14	callen	Raynes: are you being sarcastic? I'm surprised you are asking for my opinion about code.
00:14	Raynes	squidz: https://github.com/Raynes/laser :D <plug>
00:14	squidz	ibdknox: yeah I should have expected that answer
00:14	TimMc	technomancy: I appreciate this, thanks.
00:14	clojurebot	We live to serve.
00:14	squidz	Raynes: oh, sounds dangerous
00:14	technomancy	TimMc: have you tried wicd?
00:15	TimMc	Nope. What is?
00:15	technomancy	network-manager replacement
00:15	technomancy	I was looking at how network-manager stores credentials, and it's horrible horrible horrible
00:15	callen	you know, I've tried to use wicd on at least 6 different occasions.
00:15	callen	it ended in my losing internet access and being unable to reinstall nm-applet each time.
00:15	TimMc	*distrustfully
00:15	technomancy	NM mostly works fine from a user perspective, but once you get to trying to automate it it's pretty gross
00:15	Raynes	You people are talking too fast.
00:15	callen	Raynes: I'm looking at the code but I'm still baffled you asked for my opinion.
00:15	Raynes	callen: I was just curious if you thought my approach was as insane as enlive.
00:16	TimMc	I mean, I keep a screen session open to restart network-manager and nm-applet every 3 hours, but still... I KNOW those bugs.
00:16	technomancy	callen: good to have additional data points; thanks =)
00:16	callen	Raynes: you should benchmark it against Enlive, Enlive is pretty slow.
00:16	Raynes	callen: I did, it's faster for the tests I ran (from viewbenchmarks)
00:16	TimMc	Raynes: It's because many of us are northerners.
00:16	technomancy	TimMc: my main complaint is I can't use dmenu to select new wifi access points, only known ones
00:16	Raynes	Significantly faster.
00:16	ibdknox	TWO HUNDRED MIRRION FASTER
00:16	technomancy	but that's fairly high on Maslow's Linux hierarchy compared to periodic network-manager restarts =)
00:16	Raynes	callen: See the bottom of the readme
00:17	callen	ibdknox: DATS RACIST
00:17	callen	Raynes: there's something amiss about the benchmarks btw
00:17	Raynes	But yeah, one more small bug (there is an issue for it) and I'll recommend it to peoples.
00:17	callen	Raynes: usually hiccup is close to (str ...) in performance (2x at most)
00:18	callen	Raynes: in your test it's the worst, worse than Enlive, which I've never seen before.
00:18	technomancy	TimMc: what the hell, pushed it: https://github.com/technomancy/dotfiles/blob/master/README.md
00:18	TimMc	Raynes: Does Laser escape node contents by default?
00:18	Raynes	callen: I didn't really care about benchmarks. I just used what was in viewbenchmarks and posted what it said.
00:18	callen	Raynes: sure I'm just saying that the numbers are highly irregular.
00:18	TimMc	Answer carefully.
00:18	callen	anyway, back to the code.
00:19	Raynes	TimMc: The library underneath it, Hickory, escapes all text nodes.
00:19	TimMc	Good.
00:19	callen	Raynes: why'd you write your own escape-html?
00:19	Raynes	callen: It's from an earlier version. Pretty sure I don't use it anymore and it should be removed.
00:19	clojurebot	version ranges are nothing but trouble: http://nelsonmorris.net/2012/07/31/do-not-use-version-ranges-in-project-clj.html
00:19	ibdknox	this will be useful later.
00:19	TimMc	shit
00:20	callen	Raynes: you use it in the content function.
00:20	TimMc	clojurebot: YOU are nothing but trouble.
00:20	clojurebot	@ has nothing to do with whether sth is evaluated or not
00:20	Raynes	callen: Okay, in that case it's because it's from an earlier version of hickory where things were not escaped automatically.
00:20	callen	I think clojurebot would make an excellent experiment in how to passively percolate information into a community.
00:20	Raynes	Still redundant.
00:20	Raynes	And should be removed.
00:21	callen	Raynes: just being accurate as I troll through the code.
00:21	TimMc	callen: What makes you think it isn't? ;-)
00:21	squidz	clojurebot: you so silly
00:21	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
00:21	Raynes	callen: In fact, given that fact, html-content and content can both do the same thing so content probably shouldn't exist and html-content should be renamed.
00:21	callen	Raynes: why is enlive so big anyway?
00:21	Raynes	So thanks for pointing that out and I'll put it on my todo list.
00:22	Raynes	callen: Because it does direct interop with a unbelievably shitty HTML library and does stuff that I can't even begin to want to know about.
00:22	callen	raynes@dasouth:$ echo "Overthrow Enlive, set myself up as the dictator of whole HTML document transformation-landia" >> TODO.md
00:22	TimMc	technomancy: Seriously, this is great. I'm going to buy an SSD and try installing Debian on it.
00:22	ibdknox	Enlive is the most obtuse clojure I've seen I think
00:22	Raynes	I use todoist, so it's more like "click type click"
00:22	technomancy	TimMc: yessssss
00:23	callen	Raynes: leave the joke alone.
00:23	callen	TimMc: http://github.com/bitemyapp/dotfiles/
00:23	technomancy	Raynes: at least pretend to use org; geez
00:23	callen	technomancy: if it comforts you, I too use org.
00:23	Raynes	technomancy: I used org once. It did not work.
00:23	callen	mostly for internal company documents.
00:23	callen	technomancy: our due-diligence paperwork was all Org getting exported into LaTeX.
00:24	TimMc	Nice.
00:24	callen	TimMc: there are 400,000 lines of Emacs Lisp in my dotfiles repo.
00:24	callen	TimMc: in the current checkout.
00:24	TimMc	That's terrifying.
00:24	callen	My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
00:24	callen	Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
00:25	Raynes	callen: I'm taking off, so if you respond with any more comments I probably won't see them for a while. Just don't think I'm ignoring you.
00:25	technomancy	callen: hah nice
00:25	callen	I only know one guy with more Lisp code in his Emacs install than me, and he's a batty Haskell user.
00:25	callen	Raynes: thanks for the heads up. I'll be poking through.
00:25	ivan	is half of that org-mode?
00:25	callen	org-mode is part of the Emacs site el, so no.
00:26	callen	it's all stuff I added manually. I don't believe in package managers for Emacs, although I use it for a couple things.
00:26	callen	so everytime I add a package, I integrate it manually and test it on Mac and Linux, then push the new version to github
00:27	callen	I should renick myself, "KingYakShaver"
00:27	technomancy	package.el changed my life
00:27	callen	technomancy: I'm the pig rolling in the mud, happy as all get out.
00:28	callen	technomancy: I like my artisanally crafted Emacs install.
00:28	technomancy	shade-grown parens
00:28	callen	technomancy: believe it or not, my dotfiles repo is so stable and reliable that an SF Clojure meetup ended up using it for teaching people how to use Emacs with Clojure.
00:28	callen	technomancy: I was the only one who had something that worked 99.999% of the time on Mac and Linux.
00:28	callen	so there's clearly something to be said there.
00:28	technomancy	my dotfiles repo is the starter kit =)
00:29	callen	technomancy: that's cheating dammit.
00:29	technomancy	I know =)
00:29	TimMc	You and your toolbar-hiding, pretty-fn-showing config...
00:29	technomancy	I don't actively encourage its use these days for anything other than pillaging
00:29	technomancy	but pillaging is an important Emacs tradition
00:30	callen	technomancy: my dotfiles repo is actually shake-n-bake ready for Python, Clojure, Haskell, Scala, J, Java, JavaScript, web dev (HTML/CSS/JS), etc....
00:30	technomancy	callen: I tried to do the per-language modularity thing with the starter kit
00:30	callen	technomancy: you seen how I do it in mine?
00:30	technomancy	but I basically ignored all non-clojure stuff soon after =)
00:31	technomancy	looks
00:31	callen	I lift the subdirs into the elisp search path, then load the configs.
00:31	callen	to disable the language, just comment out the config load.
00:31	callen	easy-cheesy.
00:32	technomancy	how many mail clients do you have configured here?
00:32	callen	technomancy: I don't want to talk about that.
00:32	callen	the mail clients situation has been an ongoing canker-sore for me.
00:32	technomancy	was mostly happy with gnus until I started reading mail on my phone; the gnus model does not play well with others
00:33	callen	technomancy: anyway, not a terrible per-language module system if you ask me.
00:33	technomancy	apart from the reliance on offlineimap, mu4e is niiiiice
00:33	callen	the per language config/init file system did a lot to clean up my .emacs
00:33	technomancy	yeah, makes sense to leverage the load-path for that
00:33	callen	technomancy: well previously everything in the configs was inside the .emacs
00:34	callen	technomancy: and not necessarily grouped together intelligently
00:34	callen	the restructuring saved my sanity.
00:34	callen	so I used to have a big .emacs
00:34	technomancy	do you do your own autoloads though?
00:34	technomancy	that sounds like a lot of work
00:34	callen	technomancy: autoloads? no.
00:34	callen	what sounds like a lot of work? the restructuring or maintaining the stygian-horror .emacs file?
00:35	technomancy	keeping autoloads for that
00:35	callen	because after I did the restructuring, it's been pretty smooth sailing.
00:35	callen	I don't keep autoloads for anything.
00:35	seangrove	Ah, damn
00:35	technomancy	oh so you just bite the bullet with slow boot times?
00:35	seangrove	Ended up with a cons instead of a vector
00:36	callen	technomancy: yes. it's like leiningen man.
00:36	callen	technomancy: I fire up Emacs like once a month.
00:36	callen	technomancy: I try not to optimize problems that I don't have :P
00:36	callen	I abhor premature optimization.
00:36	seangrove	callen: You're my archetype for premature optimization in this channel
00:37	technomancy	I keep all my projects segregated by emacs instance, so that would never work for me
00:37	callen	seangrove: what.
00:37	callen	technomancy: huh. not totally sure what you mean there. emacs-project-mode?
00:38	technomancy	callen: no I mean like I have one emacs instance for leiningen, a couple for different work projects, one for ERC, one for mail, one for IM, etc
00:39	callen	technomancy: ah yeah. I see what you mean there.
00:39	callen	technomancy: I've tried to avoid having that problem
00:39	technomancy	a habit I picked up from gnus blocking behaviour
00:39	callen	I assumed that if it did become a problem, I'd start using a buffer grouping library.
00:40	technomancy	but now I like it because I use different themes depending on the context
00:40	callen	technomancy: makes sense. I'd end up making the Google Chrome of Emacs instead. (one process per tab)
00:40	technomancy	heh
00:41	technomancy	well if you have to run on OS X you're a lot more limited
00:41	callen	how so?
00:41	technomancy	you don't have xmonad to help you out =)
00:41	callen	technomancy: oh yeah, that's a part of the problem.
00:41	technomancy	plus IIRC the cocoa version makes it difficult to launch multiple instances
00:41	callen	technomancy: I use Xmonad when I'm in Linux.
00:42	technomancy	like you have to make duplicates of the .app dir or something silly
00:42	technomancy	dunno; it's been a while
00:42	callen	yes, you do.
00:42	callen	no that's right.
00:42	callen	technomancy: most Mac users I know who have that problem usually launch it from the command line or run it in the terminal
00:42	seangrove	technomancy: I use the terminal version of emacs
00:42	callen	technomancy: then let each terminal tab be an emacs instance.
00:42	seangrove	But I always connect them via emacs-client
00:43	seangrove	I prefere to have lots of windows into one monstrous emacs process
01:16	muhoo	Raynes: where da laser at, yo?
01:16	muhoo	did you release it?
01:18	callen	muhoo: he's not here right now. I happen to be the 2nd most qualified person to talk about it in this IRC channel though.
01:18	callen	muhoo: I promise everything I say will be a lie.
01:20	muhoo	including that?
01:20	callen	muhoo: hello Kretan.
01:20	muhoo	ah, a transformation library with build in logical paradox
01:20	callen	muhoo: I'll say this about laser, nothing is stopping you from using it in an app.
01:20	callen	muhoo: it is however not as !PRODUCTION! grade as say, Stencil. But few things are.
01:21	muhoo	i just googled it and yes, it appears to be released, yay.
01:21	callen	muhoo: it's about 250 lines of code. I'd say just read the code and roll with it.
01:22	muhoo	yeah, it's funny how in clojure land 800 lines is "huge". i've been doing java for months and 800 lines is setup and hello world
01:23	callen	muhoo: I'm pretty sure ~800 lines is Enlive, and that's considered to be a bit complex.
01:23	muhoo	callen: cloning now, thanks.
01:23	callen	muhoo: thank github, not me.
01:26	muhoo	+1 for working "ermahgerd" into the readme
01:36	arrdem	what's the most idiomatic way to put a fn in a map?
01:36	callen	muhoo: was there something about enlive that wasn't working for you?
01:37	arrdem	,((:foo {:foo (fn [x] (* x 2))}) 2)
01:37	clojurebot	4
01:37	callen	sigh, I'd just gone to the trouble of demonstrating.
01:38	callen	arrdem: you appear to understand it just fine. what's the issue?
01:39	arrdem	callen: I've defined a macro that assoc's a key to a fn in an atom
01:39	arrdem	but it seems that my fns are comming through as lists not nfs
01:39	arrdem	*fns
01:39	arrdem	,(type (fn [x] x))
01:39	clojurebot	sandbox$eval55$fn__56
01:39	callen	if you had a specific problem, why didn't you just refheap it?
01:39	callen	otherwise, the way you phrased your question seemed to merely be musing if it was possible.
01:40	arrdem	never had to pastebin my problem before
01:40	callen	so refheap it?
01:40	arrdem	willdo
01:40	callen	I have no idea what your macro looks like
01:40	callen	arrdem: why are you using an atom?
01:42	arrdem	callen: the only way I understand to incrementally accumulate a value
01:42	arrdem	I suppose a val would work too...
01:46	arrdem	ok problem reproduced...
01:46	arrdem	callen: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7807
01:47	callen	arrdem: not seeing the problem.
01:47	callen	are one of those supposed to break?
01:48	arrdem	no, they should both work
01:48	callen	arrdem: so what's the problem?
01:48	arrdem	callen: I get an error that the fns are being parsed as persistant lists and I don't see why
01:49	arrdem	I mean I understand that I could (eval) em and then apply, but this should work and I would like to understand why
01:49	callen	arrdem: why is table-insert a macro?
01:50	arrdem	no reason for it to be, it's just that the intent is for it to be executed as a (def)ish statement at compile time
01:50	arrdem	and my line between fns and macros for stuff like this is fuzzy
01:53	amalloy	that shouldn't be a macro. you could make it work, but there's no reason to
01:53	arrdem	callen: how would you structure something like this? your tone suggests that I'm making some strange choices
01:54	callen	arrdem: I'm not the best person to listen to, but I'm going to concur with the more knowledgeable amalloy's comment about the macro.
01:54	callen	arrdem: default to just using functions in general.
01:54	amalloy	just change 'defmacro to 'defn, and it works like magic
01:55	arrdem	amalloy: understood I'm just trying to draw a better line between using defn and defmacro than in a defmacro I need the macro code generation syntax.
01:56	callen	amalloy: for the sake of comprehension, why isn't it working? I'm staring at the macroexpand and feeling stupid.
01:56	amalloy	it's trying to do the swap at compile-time, with the code for f instead of with the function f, and then expanding to the atom's current value
01:57	amalloy	it could work as a macro if it were like `(swap a assoc ~k ~f), but at that point it's doing nothing different from a function
01:58	arrdem	okay thanks amalloy and callen
01:58	bbloom	you'd use a macro if you were always inserting functions and wanted special syntax for it
01:58	bbloom	ie to eliminate the "(fn " and one ")"
01:59	arrdem	bbloom: right so you'd do an & forms and just ~ expand it
01:59	bbloom	something like (table-insert :foo [x] (* x 2))
01:59	bbloom	arrdem: generally, i never write macros longer than 2 or 3 lines
01:59	bbloom	i always write all my logic in functions
01:59	bbloom	test them as functions
02:00	bbloom	and then write a tiny macro at the end to call the function
02:02	arrdem	ok thanks. I'm reading Let over Lambda atm so I may just be on the lunatic fringe with trying to macro.
02:03	amalloy	doug hoyte is certainly a lunatic, though a clever one
02:04	callen	arrdem: please do not write Clojure code based on the lunatic ravings of Hoyte.
02:04	callen	arrdem: please?
02:04	bbloom	arrdem: i feel as though somebody needs to assign levels to each clojure function and beginners should master each level before moving on :-)
02:04	arrdem	callen: ok ok
02:05	arrdem	bbloom: I joke that in Haskell you take an IQ check before calling a function
02:05	bbloom	heh, i just see lots of people in here wondering about the subtlties of atoms vs refs, or macros vs functions, or what not
02:05	callen	bbloom: I smell a clojure achievements game.
02:05	bbloom	but it's just too much shit all at once
02:06	egghead	ya that's a good idea bbloom
02:06	callen	bbloom: the final level is "found a reason to use fnext instead of second"
02:06	arrdem	callen: lol
02:06	callen	"had a triply-layered macro using juxt"
02:06	callen	"beat amalloy at golf"
02:07	bbloom	egghead: yeah, i think i'd have appreciated a sign "learn all of these functions before touching atoms"
02:07	bbloom	heh :-)
02:08	bbloom	that's why i always recommend 4clojure to folks: no def, no macros, it's like levels 1 through 3 without levels 4 and 5
02:08	bbloom	really helpful for my slow brain
02:09	egghead	even beyond the data structures (can we call a macro a data structure? :p ) -- so many of the functions are built on an understanding of one another
02:09	egghead	and in fact written in terms of one another
02:09	egghead	sometimes I have a hard time trying to explain clojure concepts to coworkers because I forgot how little context there is for it in the oo/java world
02:10	SegFaultAX	egghead: Or functional programming in general.
02:10	bbloom	egghead: it's easier to explain them in the absence of any particular language
02:10	bbloom	egghead: even better, avoid any buzz word they may have ever heard :-)
02:11	SegFaultAX	bbloom: That's hard because a lot of the important details have names that are buzzwordy right now. Even simple stuff like higher-order functions.
02:11	Raynes	muhoo: Cool. Gonna use it?
02:12	Raynes	muhoo: I'm rewriting refheap's views with it. There is exactly one bug that I know of (see the issue) at the moment that isn't a huge deal, but other than that it is released and ready to go.
02:12	mehwork	if the var foo exists, how come re-def'ing like the following doesn't change its value: (def foo (update-in ....)
02:13	bbloom	mehwork: your question doesn't make sense. context?
02:13	mehwork	bbloom: i'm just trying to make an update-in stick
02:13	bbloom	mehwork: do not use vars (via def) for mutable values
02:14	bbloom	mehwork: vars are only mutable for the sake of interactive development
02:14	mehwork	i have to use let then?
02:14	SegFaultAX	mehwork: What are you trying to do?
02:14	bbloom	put an atom in your var and update that
02:14	mehwork	SegFaultAX: update a value inline
02:14	bbloom	(def foo (atom nil))
02:14	bbloom	mehwork: let establishes immutable local bindings, you can't mutate those either
02:15	mehwork	i haven't learned atoms yet. They looked like they were more for concurrent programming when i skimmed them before, but i'll try that. Thanks.
02:16	egghead	you can certainly define some foo as the result of evaluating some call to update-in
02:16	bbloom	mehwork: they encapsulate compare and swap, so they are safe for concurrent access
02:16	egghead	it's just considered very messy to do it in the middle of a functions body
02:17	bbloom	see: we need levels :-)
02:18	arrdem	get that in the runtime...
02:20	mehwork	to change an atom do i have to do (reset! @atomname (update-in ...))
02:20	egghead	mehwork: the idea is that the value will never change (immutable) and so anything that ever receives the value is afforded that guarantee, you can change the reference so any time you use it in the future it'll evaluate to it's current value, but as it's called by value you can't change a reference in one place and expect to see it in former places
02:20	mehwork	because it's giving me an exception about an Atom can't be cast to Associative
02:21	egghead	atoms allow you to pass around ~references~ though, so if that's what you want you're set
02:22	egghead	mehwork: you'd want to say (swap! atom-name (fn [atom-value] (update-in ..))
02:23	egghead	oops, reset*
02:24	zellio	egghead: why the (fn ..)
02:25	egghead	zellio: I was mistaken, I was thinking swap! not reset!
02:27	arrdem	okay, so how can I pull off a closure here? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7808
02:28	zellio	egghead: ahh okay, am I correct in remmebering that swap! inserts @atom after fn ?
02:28	zellio	so (swap! a fn arg) -> (fn a arg)
02:28	arrdem	zellio: yes, and then sets the value of a to that value
02:29	mehwork	(reset! my-atom (update-in my-addmin [:key :test] "newval")) is giving me an exception
02:29	mehwork	as is assoc-in
02:29	zellio	mehwork: no ()
02:29	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
02:29	zellio	or rather
02:29	zellio	sorry
02:29	zellio	make it a fn
02:29	zellio	reset takes atom newval
02:30	zellio	(reset! atom #(update-in % [:key] "val"))
02:30	mehwork	hate to say it but the clojure docs (euphemism "suck")
02:30	zellio	arrdem: thanks, don't have a repl on me
02:30	mehwork	at least for noobs like me
02:30	arrdem	zellio: don't thank me yet... I could be wrong XP
02:30	egghead	update-in takes a function as its final arg, right?
02:30	zellio	arrdem: ha
02:30	zellio	mehwork: clojuredocs.org ?
02:31	egghead	http://clojure-doc.org/
02:31	mehwork	zellio: yeah, i mean it's a fine reference if you know the language i'm sure
02:32	arrdem	zellio: yes that's the behavior as repl tested here
02:35	zellio	ahh leiningen installed, much better
02:35	mehwork	zellio: whatever that code example you just gave did reset my atom to only now have a value of like #<Atom...> and @atom looks like #<foo$eval....
02:35	mehwork	iow, it's fubar'd
02:35	egghead	mehwork: you don't want the # or %
02:36	egghead	that makes it a function, that's the repls way of telling you that the value of your atom is a fn
02:36	bbloom	reset! is not what you want
02:36	bbloom	you want swap!
02:36	bbloom	(doc swap!)
02:36	clojurebot	"([atom f] [atom f x] [atom f x y] [atom f x y & ...]); Atomically swaps the value of atom to be: (apply f current-value-of-atom args). Note that f may be called multiple times, and thus should be free of side effects. Returns the value that was swapped in."
02:36	mehwork	egghead: well that puts me back to where i was before and gives me classcastexception clojure.lang.Atom cant be cast
02:37	mehwork	my head Hz
02:37	bbloom	(swap! the-aom update-in [:key] assoc "val")
02:37	egghead	:)
02:37	bbloom	reset! forcibly overrides a value
02:37	bbloom	swap! will apply a function and replace the value with the result of that function
02:37	mehwork	just glad you didn't say i need eve instead of atom
02:37	bbloom	(let [a (atom 5)] (swap! a inc) @a)
02:37	bbloom	,(let [a (atom 5)] (swap! a inc) @a)
02:37	clojurebot	6
02:38	bbloom	,(let [a (atom {:a {:b 1}})] (swap! a update-in [:a :b] inc) @a)
02:38	clojurebot	{:a {:b 2}}
02:38	bbloom	,(let [a (atom {:a {:b 1}})] (swap! a update-in [:a :b] + 2) @a)
02:38	clojurebot	{:a {:b 3}}
02:38	bbloom	get it now?
02:38	bbloom	,(let [a (atom {:a {:b 1}})] (reset! a 2))
02:38	clojurebot	2
02:38	bbloom	,(let [a (atom {:a {:b 1}})] (reset! a 2) @a)
02:38	clojurebot	2
02:39	mehwork	thanks bbloom
02:39	zellio	wow, well that's my queue to go to sleep
02:40	mehwork	mispelling cue is
02:40	mehwork	misspelling mispelling is
02:40	zellio	I didn't get queue wrong, I just got the wrong cue
02:40	bbloom	mehwork: you should watch rich's talk on values, identities, the epochal view of time, etc
02:40	mehwork	fifo
02:41	egghead	http://www.infoq.com/author/Rich-Hickey
02:41	mehwork	i should, but certainly not right now. Head hurts and tired. Probably shouldn't even attempt to atomicize my code
02:41	bbloom	mehwork: yeah, get some rest
02:41	bbloom	then watch those videos
02:41	bbloom	~infoq
02:41	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
02:42	mehwork	it will give my brain a rich hickey i'm sure
02:42	bbloom	clojurebot: infoq is http://www.infoq.com/author/Rich-Hickey
02:42	clojurebot	Roger.
02:42	bbloom	~infoq
02:42	clojurebot	infoq is http://www.infoq.com/author/Rich-Hickey
02:42	bbloom	hurray :-)
02:42	bbloom	watch em all, twice :-)
02:42	mehwork	he looks very nerdy. I trust him already
04:53	jmaloney	So im having a bit of a problem I was wondering if i could get some help with. I am trying to write a partial derivative function (using the difference quotient) which takes a function a vector of values and which value to deriv on. I am having issues constructing a the values vector with a variable inserted into it
04:53	jmaloney	by variable i mean that i reduce the input of the function f to just one param to derive over
04:56	jmaloney	i need some crazy form of partial or something
04:57	borkdude	jmaloney maybe you can share some code via refheap ?
04:57	borkdude	jmaloney refheap.com
04:58	jmaloney	borkdude lemme figure out refheap real fast
04:58	jmaloney	borkdude https://www.refheap.com/paste/7809
04:58	jmaloney	borkdude that work?
04:59	jmaloney	borkdude this has my f-prime function if that helps https://www.refheap.com/paste/7810
05:00	borkdude	jmaloney can you also show how you would use this function?
05:01	jmaloney	borkdude https://www.refheap.com/paste/7811
05:03	borkdude	jmaloney how is function f supposed to be called, with a collection or single value?
05:05	jmaloney	borkdude i want it to work on functions that except a collection of values, so they are multivariable, so i made f like this and just grabbed the first value of the vector
05:06	jmaloney	borkdude I'm pretty sure the issue is that the vector passed to it is [() 1 ()]. I just don't know how to construct it without getting empty lists
05:07	borkdude	ah
05:07	borkdude	jmaloney what should [() 1 ()] be instead then?
05:07	jmaloney	borkdude [1]
05:08	jmaloney	borkdude wait no no no
05:09	borkdude	jmaloney maybe you mean nth?
05:09	jmaloney	borkdude its not really being passed in
05:09	borkdude	jmaloney you want f to have a vector of numbers?
05:10	borkdude	jmaloney maybe it should help if you add some fictional type signatures to the functions
05:10	borkdude	jmaloney in Haskell fashion
05:10	jmaloney	borkdude im making an anonymous function which should make (f [m]) the function being passed to f-prime
05:11	jmaloney	borkdude instead its creating the function #(f [() % ()])
05:12	borkdude	jmaloney f-prime expects a function and arguments, and applies those arguments to the function
05:13	borkdude	jmaloney so I have no idea why you apply arguments to f in partial-deriv
05:13	borkdude	jmaloney shouldn't you just pass f and the args seperately, not wrap it inside an anonmyous function?
05:14	jmaloney	borkdude well f-prime takes a one variable function so I need to reduce f to one variable (the one specified by n in the partial deriv call)
05:15	jmaloney	borkdude because we are only varying over one of the variables when taking the partial derivative
05:15	borkdude	jmaloney ah I see
05:16	jmaloney	borkdude maybe im just not thinking about it in the best way
05:17	borkdude	jmaloney maybe some fictional type signatures would help, becuase I have trouble understanding what goes in where exactly
05:17	jmaloney	borkdude lemme think about it some more. thanks for the help
05:18	borkdude	jmaloney it seems that f takes a vector of numbers? what you pass to it now is not a homogenous vector
05:19	borkdude	jmaloney or does f take a vector of vector of numbers?
05:19	jmaloney	borkdude it takes a vector of numbers
05:19	borkdude	jmaloney you pass a vector of sequences to it now
05:19	borkdude	jmaloney in f-prime
05:20	jmaloney	borkdude i realize this im not sure how to get around that
05:25	borkdude	jmaloney what should go into function f inside f-prime, when you call f-prime with [1]?
05:25	jmaloney	borkdude just a number
05:26	jmaloney	borkdude i want f-prime to get a function like #(f [2 3 % 1 2]) and eval it
05:27	borkdude	jmaloney random numbers surrounding it?
05:27	jmaloney	borkdude thats generalized to a 5 variable function
05:27	jmaloney	borkdude in this simple case #(f [%])
05:28	borkdude	jmaloney in this simple case that would simply be f, instead of the whole (fn [m] (f (vector …))))
05:29	borkdude	jmaloney ah wait, confusion
05:29	borkdude	jmaloney you want f-prime to have a function that takes a single number
05:29	borkdude	jmaloney but the function f at the beginning is a multivalued function
05:30	jmaloney	borkdude yea
05:30	jmaloney	borkdude exactly
05:32	borkdude	jmaloney so in this simple case it would be (f-prime (fn [x] (f (vec x))) ...
05:32	jmaloney	borkdude yea
05:33	borkdude	jmaloney (f-prime (fn [x] (f (vector x))) ... ;; sorry, no vec
05:37	borkdude	jmaloney maybe you want something like (concat (take n x) (vector x) (drop (inc n) x))
05:40	jmaloney	jmaloney i think that works!!
06:04	callen	$findfn [0 1 2] [0 2]
06:04	lazybot	[]
06:04	callen	$findfn [0 1 2] 0 2
06:04	lazybot	[]
06:04	callen	,(even? 2)
06:05	clojurebot	true
06:05	callen	,(filter even? [0 1 2])
06:05	clojurebot	(0 2)
06:06	hyPiRion	,(filterv even? [0 1 2])
06:06	clojurebot	[0 2]
06:09	callen	hyPiRion: wait, when did the *v fns happen?
06:09	callen	I don't suppose anyone here knows the difference between sandbar and friend, would they?
06:10	callen	it seems like friend is more comprehensive and extensible, not too sure beyond that.
06:11	borkdude	callen the *v fns were added in clojure 1.4.0
06:11	hyPiRion	Aren't that many though
06:11	hyPiRion	,(removev even? [0 1 2]) ; <- Won't work
06:11	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: removev in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
06:11	callen	borkdude: that explains why I didn't know about them.
06:12	borkdude	,(-> #'filterv meta :added)
06:12	clojurebot	"1.4"
06:12	callen	<3 ->
06:19	borkdude	,(filter (fn [me] (= (-> (second me) meta :added) "1.4")) (ns-publics 'clojure.core))
06:19	clojurebot	([mapv #'clojure.core/mapv] [data-readers #'clojure.core/data-readers] [filterv #'clojure.core/filterv] [default-data-readers #'clojure.core/default-data-readers] [ex-info #'clojure.core/ex-info] ...)
07:07	dronlinux	CPU:intel(r) core(tm) i5-3210m @ 2.50ghz Memory:8031MB In-use:36% Display:1366X768 Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate Edition, 64-bit Service Pack 1 (build 7601) Uptime:00:06:31:19 client:ThrashIRC
09:04	konr_trab	What do you use to deploy applications?
10:06	rodnaph_	hey, does anyone have suggestions for how to get started with clojurescript? i've got cljsbuild set up on my project, but now i want need to include some other libraries, and not sure where to begin... halp! thanks.
10:32	solussd	does compojure have something similar to noir.core/url-for to construct urls from routes + a param map?
10:58	rodnaph_	hi - does anyone know how to parse EDN (from a web service) in clojurescript - i can't find a read-string equivalent... or am i missing it?
11:02	rodnaph_	nm - gorrit. cljs.reader/read-string
11:59	uvtc	Are "reader literals" the same thing as "tagged literals"?
12:00	uvtc	It appears that the 1.4 changes.md file refers to them as "reader literals", but http://clojure.org/reader calls them "tagged literals".
12:11	uvtc	Slow day here today. I asked on the ML.
12:30	jkkramer	uvtc: yeah, same thing - the #inst "2012-12-22…" syntax. And data readers are what handles them
12:31	jkkramer	I guess technically anything that's not sexps could be considered a reader literal, so tagged literal seems more correct
12:33	uvtc	jkkramer: thanks
12:33	antoineB	j clojurebot
12:45	duck1123	Did the rules for pushing stable releases to clojars change already? I pushed a new version of one of my libs, but it is not showing up
12:50	antoineB	what is wrong (case (type []) clojure.lang/PersistentVector "vector" "default") ?
12:58	raek	antoineB: case does not evaluate the clojure.lang/PersistentVector argument
12:58	raek	so it tries to match it with _the symbol_ "clojure.lang/PersistentVector"
12:58	antoineB	ok
12:59	raek	you either need to something else than 'case' or you need to put the actual classes in the code
13:00	raek	antoineB: https://gist.github.com/997652
13:21	xeqi	duck1123: when you do a push, you can log in and either see problems or promote it
13:22	xeqi	we've stopped the auto promotion atm due to a concurrency bug
13:25	antoineB	raek: tahnks, but i don't manage to transform it into a clojurescript macro
13:39	mehwork	is there a good reason to use atoms/reset! instead of just var-set in non-concurrent/non-threaded code?
13:55	TimMc	xeqi: Oh, is there a stable-releases repo now?
13:57	xeqi	TimMc: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/clojure/AsPs9ZonRPQ/9ztNyKcMpB0J
13:58	xeqi	lots of discussion of concurrency bug / WHY U USE GPG? after the first message tho
13:58	mehwork	what's a good way to know if you should make a separate defn when a line is getting too long, versus just putting an indented paran on a new line?
13:59	AimHere	Do it one way and try reading it. If it looks hard to read, do it the other way.
14:00	mehwork	it feels equally as readable to me
14:00	mehwork	in this case anyway
14:09	TimMc	xeqi: Thanks.
14:16	TimMc	xeqi, technomancy: I'd also like to see the documention link to some best-practices document on creating and managing software signing keys.
14:16	xeqi	I think technomancy has pplans to work on getting the docs int oshape next
14:16	TimMc	I know how to create and use GPG keys for personal use, but that doesn't mean I know how to use them securely for signing software.
14:41	TimMc	Hmm, why would you want a software signing key to expire in a year or two?
14:50	xeqi	TimMc: to limit the damage time if you lose the private key ?
14:50	xeqi	I'm not really sure
14:50	xeqi	only started using it during the summer when lein-master started auto-signing
14:51	TimMc	xeqi: My concern is what happens to an existing release in 2 years.
14:52	TimMc	Raynes: Hmm, I kind of like this Laser thing... but you know what it needs? CSS selectors! forks
14:53	TimMc	xeqi: It just occurred to me that I don't keep copies of my old releases. I really should do that!
14:54	xeqi	or tag the commit in git
14:54	xeqi	so you can just regenerate them
14:55	llasram	I'm not so happy about pushing new copies of old releases, even if they are from the same tagged commit
14:56	llasram	But since that seems to be the process -- joining the club and getting libs promoted
14:56	TimMc	xeqi: A rebuild 2 years later of the same commit is likely to have weird little differences sneak in.
14:57	TimMc	I'm just going to download all my releases and keep them somewhere. I can sign them later.
14:58	xeqi	llasram: agreed, thats just the easiest way
14:59	xeqi	if you know how to manually sign them, and make sha1+md5sum, then you could just PUT them to the right url
15:00	llasram	Oh. Should be pretty easy to create a tool to do that then. Just run w/ the dep coordinates as arguments, and it could do the rest
15:00	xeqi	yeah, just thought of that
15:00	xeqi	though you might need some pom changes depending on the metadata
15:03	llasram	Oh? Like what?
15:05	xeqi	to promote to the releases repo they need url, description, license, and scm
15:06	llasram	Oh, ok. But most projects should already have those, right? Leiningen adds scm, and includes the others in the project.clj template
15:08	llasram	Well, that wasn't so bad
15:08	xeqi	I've got a couple that don't, but most new ones should
15:13	borkdude	someone interested in responding to this scala complexity story from a clojure (simple made easy) perspective? clojure doesn't even get a mention in this article http://branchandbound.net/blog/scala/2012/12/scala-is-like-git/
15:20	borkdude	so how would cond-> et al be used? examples?
15:20	borkdude	find the docs a bit cryptic
15:20	borkdude	(talking about clojure 1.5-RC1
15:20	borkdude	)
15:21	seangrove	borkdude: Pretty sure the ml had a few examples
15:24	seangrove	Well, maybe not. Don't see any for that particular macro
15:24	seangrove	They all seem very useful to me though
15:25	TimMc	borkdude: The IRC logs have some examples.
15:25	borkdude	hmm, is it a bug that clojure lets me define a var named like this? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7815
15:26	TimMc	,(munge 'added-1.5)
15:26	clojurebot	added_1.5
15:27	seangrove	,(let [added-1.5 2] added-1.5)
15:27	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassFormatError: Illegal field name "added_1.5" in class sandbox$eval53, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
15:27	TimMc	Hrm. That should be added_1_DOT_5, I think
15:27	borkdude	(I was trying to get a list of all vars added in 1.5, then this happened to me)
15:29	llasram	Is '.' supposed to be valid in the qualified part of symbol which doesn't refer to a class?
15:29	TimMc	From Compiler.java: // '.', "_DOT_",
15:29	TimMc	So I guess that's not supposed to be munged? :-/
15:30	llasram	"'.' has special meaning - it can be used one or more times in the middle of a symbol to designate a fully-qualified class name, e.g. java.util.BitSet, or in namespace names."
15:30	TimMc	,(class 'added-1.5)
15:30	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
15:30	llasram	http://clojure.org/reader
15:30	TimMc	,(class 'java.lang.String)
15:30	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
15:30	borkdude	llasram yes, but should clojure allow me to define it or not?
15:31	borkdude	't was defined: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7816
15:32	TimMc	I want to see Clojure have a defined grammar for symbols.
15:32	TimMc	This gets really annoying.
15:34	TimMc	They could even do it in a backward-compatible way with soft-fails. "Use of $ in a symbol is accepted but not supported in version 1.3."
15:34	llasram	borkdude: Hmm. Good question. My vote would be that it shouldn't -- dots are for namespaces and packages
15:34	llasram	TimMc: +1
15:34	llasram	Errors involving mixes of munged/unmunged/partially-munged names are not friendly
15:34	TimMd	what have you done!
15:34	TimMd	you've mutated my nick!
15:35	llasram	Oops! I meant
15:35	llasram	(inc TimMc)
15:35	lazybot	⇒ 29
15:35	llasram	There we go
15:35	TimMc	I guess you didn't ++, so never mind.
15:40	borkdude	would it be worth it mentioning this on the mailing list or is this seen as annoying noise?
15:42	arrdem	is there an equivalent to (gensym) for keywords?
15:43	borkdude	too late, already mailed it
15:43	borkdude	arrdem you can gensym and use that to create a keyword?
15:43	arrdem	,(type (keyword (gensym)))
15:43	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
15:43	arrdem	ok, thanks borkdude
15:43	borkdude	,(keyword (gensym))
15:43	clojurebot	:G__56
15:43	borkdude	,(keyword (gensym))
15:43	clojurebot	:G__83
15:50	TimMc	,(gensym)
15:50	clojurebot	G__110
15:50	TimMc	,(= (gensym) 'G__111)
15:50	clojurebot	false
15:51	borkdude	,(keyword (gensym))
15:51	clojurebot	:G__164
15:51	TimMc	arrdem: ^ gensym makes slightly less sense for keywords because keywords are interned
15:51	borkdude	,(keyword (gensym))
15:51	clojurebot	:G__191
15:51	borkdude	,(= :G__218 (keyword (gensym))
15:51	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
15:51	borkdude	,(= :G__218 (keyword (gensym)))
15:51	clojurebot	false
15:51	borkdude	,(keyword (gensym))
15:51	clojurebot	:G__269
15:52	TimMc	,(= 'foo 'foo)
15:52	clojurebot	true
15:52	borkdude	,(keyword (gensym))
15:52	clojurebot	:G__322
15:52	borkdude	,(keyword (gensym))
15:52	clojurebot	:G__349
15:52	borkdude	I thought steps of 27, hmm
15:53	borkdude	hmm
15:53	borkdude	wait
15:53	borkdude	,(keyword (gensym))
15:53	clojurebot	:G__376
15:53	TimMc	Maybe someone else is playing with clojurebot in PM?
15:53	borkdude	,(= (gensym) 'G__403))
15:53	bbloom	borkdude: you can't make any assumptions about the number of gensyms
15:53	clojurebot	true
15:53	borkdude	yeah :-)
15:53	TimMc	It's going by 3 on my REPL.
15:53	borkdude	you should put the gensym first, else the symbol already exists and the gesym will be something else
15:54	borkdude	bbloom of course, but I got true =)
15:54	TimMc	ooooh
15:55	TimMc	That doesn't happen in PLT Scheme!
15:59	borkdude	TimMc looking at the source I can't really see why this is
16:00	borkdude	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java
16:00	borkdude	TimMc I mean line 459
16:01	borkdude	TimMc maybe it's a co-incidence
16:05	ravster	hello all
16:09	ravster	I have a map in one namespace, and I'm trying to apply a function from another namespace on it. And it removes all the quotes that are in the map.
16:10	TimMc	borkdude: Hmm, order doesn't seem to matter.
16:10	TimMc	I think that false was a mistake.
16:11	TimMc	ravster: If you put the map and fn in the same namespace, do you have the same issue?
16:11	TimMc	ravster: What do you mean by removing the quotes?
16:12	TimMc	(I don't see why namespaces would matter here.)
16:18	ravster	TimMc: I put a (println) in the function, and instead of printing a {:foo "bar" :baz "quux"}, it printed {:foo bar :baz quux}
16:18	TimMc	Oh yeah, that's normal -- you still have strings.
16:18	borkdude	,(let [int-gensym (fn [] (Integer/parseInt (.substring (name (gensym)) 3))) a (int-gensym) b (int-gensym)] [a b (- b a)])
16:18	ravster	This isn't giving problems when I feed the same map into the function from within the function's ns
16:18	clojurebot	[31 32 1]
16:18	borkdude	,(let [int-gensym (fn [] (Integer/parseInt (.substring (name (gensym)) 3))) a (int-gensym) b (int-gensym)] [a b (- b a)])
16:18	clojurebot	[61 62 1]
16:18	borkdude	,(let [int-gensym (fn [] (Integer/parseInt (.substring (name (gensym)) 3))) a (int-gensym) b (int-gensym)] [a b (- b a)])
16:18	clojurebot	[91 92 1]
16:18	borkdude	hm.
16:19	TimMc	ravster: Try (println (class (:foo my-map)))
16:19	borkdude	it depends on the context where gensym is called in how many steps it takes?
16:20	TimMc	borkdude: Sure, there are other things calling gensym during evaluation.
16:21	TimMc	ravster: print[ln] prints for human consumption; pr(n) prints for reader consumption.
16:21	TimMc	Try (prn my-map) instead.
16:21	ravster	TimMc: oh, okay
16:22	TimMc	,(println {:foo "bar"})
16:22	clojurebot	{:foo bar}
16:22	TimMc	,(prn {:foo "bar"})
16:22	clojurebot	{:foo "bar"}
16:22	ravster	TimMc: that did it. thanks
16:22	TimMc	"pr" stands for "print read-ably"
16:23	TimMc	,(println {:foo 'symbol})
16:23	clojurebot	{:foo symbol}
16:23	TimMc	,(prn {:foo 'symbol})
16:23	clojurebot	{:foo symbol}
16:23	TimMc	^ A case that might still be confusing.
16:24	TimMc	The reason you don't see 'symbol in the output is that the input was not merely read, it was also evaluated, so the (quote ...) disappears from the data. :-)
16:25	ravster	oh wow. okay
16:25	TimMc	,(pr-str (read-string "{:foo 'symbol}"))
16:25	clojurebot	"{:foo (quote symbol)}"
16:26	tgoossens	I'm making a simulator for lego robots. When i send a command to the simulator, it must execute that command and return true when it has succesfully finished. Whenever a new command is sent, the currently running must be stopped. Any tips in what direction i must start looking
16:28	tgoossens	is it the responsibility of the caller to first stop the simulator
16:28	tgoossens	or rather the simulator's
16:28	bbloom	tgoossens: what's the return true bit about? that sounds very C-like to have a function return success/failure like that
16:30	tgoossens	this is how i currently am thinking:
16:30	tgoossens	https://github.com/tgoossens/robotclj/blob/master/src/robotclj/core.clj
16:31	tgoossens	(usage at the bottom in the comment)
16:31	tgoossens	(drive v :forward)
16:31	tgoossens	in the case of simulator
16:31	tgoossens	* in general
16:31	bbloom	can the robot make any decisions?
16:31	bbloom	or just follow a fixed list of steps?
16:32	tgoossens	a command can be "explore maze". Its an algorithm placed on the robot. If that is what you mean with taking descions, then yes
16:33	tgoossens	or different: the algorithm runs on the robot itself. A command is just to tell the robot to start executing the algorithm
16:33	bbloom	so yeah, if you upload the algorithm to the robot
16:34	bbloom	and the client just sends commands and reads values out
16:34	bbloom	you should use a command queue
16:34	bbloom	and you just send some commands to the bot
16:36	tgoossens	bbloom: i'm looking at how agents might help me with that (never used them before)
16:48	hyPiRion	Oh nice, my Clojure stickers came
16:49	Raynes	Put on on your face.
16:50	Raynes	one*
16:51	hyPiRion	Meh, don't want to waste them yet
16:51	llasram	Put one one his face? That doesn't make sense either
16:52	ivan	actually it is tempting
16:53	llasram	I think I'd probably avoid the guy/gal with the Clojure symbol face tattoo, honestly
16:53	dnolen	bbloom: keyword patch in master
16:53	AimHere	We've all got Clojure face tattoos in here
16:54	llasram	AimHere: You have changed my mental image of #clojure forever. Thanks!
16:54	borkdude	Why not wear it as a religious programmer's mark? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikka_(forehead_mark)
16:55	AimHere	Come to think of it, has ANYONE ever used ESR's Hacker emblem?
16:56	AimHere	For anything at all, that is, other than maybe plonking it down in a life implementation
17:00	ravster	how do I install and use a clojure library using lein when its not on clojars (Where do I download the code?)?
17:00	mehwork	what's the diff between print and pr
17:00	borkdude	ravster google for lein localrepo or smth
17:00	llasram	ravster: leiningen is pretty opinionated about JARs being in a repository.
17:01	llasram	Hmm, I haven't used it, but I've seen a lot of people have trouble with localrepo
17:01	llasram	ravster: Why is this library not in a repo?
17:01	llasram	And what's your scope of using it not-in-a-repo?
17:01	ravster	borkdude: okay
17:02	borkdude	ravster or upload it to clojars under your own name
17:02	ravster	llasram: dunno, I should probably ask the dev to put it on clojars
17:02	borkdude	ravster or set up your own (local) maven repo
17:06	hyPiRion	git clone and lein install
17:06	hyPiRion	quick and dirty solution
17:06	ravster	hyPiRion: cool, will have a look at lein install
17:06	ravster	hyPiRion: thanks
17:06	llasram	(inc hyPiRion)
17:06	lazybot	⇒ 10
17:07	borkdude	it must be a leiningen project then right, hyPiRion ?
17:07	hyPiRion	borkdude: yeah, it must be a leiningen project then
17:07	hyPiRion	ravster: you're welcome :)
17:07	borkdude	hyPiRion ah, "a clojure library" is most often a leinigen project of course
17:11	Sgeo	If one vocab defines a tuple TUPLE: a b c d ; and another defines TUPLE: g b c d
17:11	Sgeo	Will the accessors conflict?
17:11	Sgeo	Can accessors conflict?
17:11	llasram	Sgeo: Who defines what how?
17:11	borkdude	Sgeo is this clojure? ;-)
17:11	Sgeo	borkdude, no, wrong channel
17:12	borkdude	ah, this is the wrong channel… let's rename everything then.
17:15	gfredericks	if I put a patch on jira and stuarth says "it would be nice if there was X also", does that mean I should attach a new patch for the whole thing or just for X?
17:25	muhoo	Raynes: i'm going to play with it, for sure. nice work.
17:26	muhoo	i have to rewrite crudite to de-noir-ify it anyway. i may need stuff like laser in order to do what i want.
17:32	bbloom	dnolen: thanks
17:32	callen	this channel is filled with /lastlog champions.
17:32	dnolen	hmm, I wonder how long before somebody tries an CLJS AST -> CLJ source w/ this http://github.com/clojure/core.logic/commit/4e2affa39bd4cbc74bd1177152f45cb2b757bd5a
17:32	dnolen	bbloom: np
17:33	callen	it's like the conversations are timeless...dare I say...persistent...
17:34	callen	muhoo: how does the HTML generation in crudite work?
17:38	seangrove	dnolen: What would CLJS AST -> CLJ source be for?
17:38	ibdknox	code transforms
17:41	bbloom	dnolen: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-301 patch updated
17:42	bbloom	er um wait a sec
17:42	bbloom	nevermind
17:43	mehwork	how do you loop through a nested sequence and print out the values in human-readable form?
17:43	dnolen	ibdknox: have you started using blind? I saw that you submitted a patch?
17:43	mehwork	30 min of googling and i still can't find one example of printing something in human readable form in clojure; everything prints a sequence
17:43	bbloom	dnolen: i think it's good, but i gotta run...
17:43	dnolen	bbloom: thx
17:44	seangrove	Uhg, datomic just keeps dying
17:44	mehwork	by human-readable i mean not a datatype and one value per line, say.
17:44	seangrove	Need more memory to run it on a proper server
17:45	mehwork	Like how do you print ([a b c [d e f]) as a b c d e f (all on their own lines)
17:45	mehwork	a
17:45	mehwork	b
17:45	mehwork	etc
17:47	mehwork	oh wait maybe with doall and map'ing println
17:48	mehwork	works for single sequence anyway, arg
17:49	callen	seangrove: how much memory are you providing, just wondering?
17:50	mehwork	clojure seems to have a learning curve of 180 degrees - right back to whatever language you were using before :\|
17:50	callen	mehwork: relax and try to enjoy yourself. Clojure has a lot of concepts built into it that are wholly alien to people from blub languages.
17:50	callen	mehwork: that is simultaneously what makes it more substantial and worthwhile, but also more difficult.
17:51	mehwork	callen: i know. It's only been a week and i've learned a lot but still frustrating when i can't even figure out how to do the simplest of things
17:51	callen	mehwork: contrast: If you already know Python, learning Ruby isn't that hard. Why? Because it doesn't have much to teach you.
17:51	callen	mehwork: do you have a book?
17:51	mehwork	true
17:51	mehwork	programing clojure
17:51	seangrove	mehwork: Could just flatten it of course
17:51	callen	mehwork: my favorite is Clojure Programming, but let me say this
17:51	mehwork	the prob is all the examples i see are rarely what i want to do
17:51	seangrove	,(map println (flatten [1 2 4 [5 6 7]]))
17:51	clojurebot	(1
17:51	clojurebot	2
17:51	clojurebot	nil 4
17:51	callen	mehwork: just try to relax, work through the book. Chill and fiddle.
17:52	clojurebot	nil 5
17:52	clojurebot	nil 6
17:52	clojurebot	nil 7
17:52	clojurebot	nil ...)
17:52	Sgeo	flatten?
17:52	seangrove	But I remember flatten is almost never what you want
17:52	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
17:52	seangrove	Hah, beat Sgeo to it
17:52	callen	mehwork: once I stopped demanding immediate 100% productivity of myself in Clojure and focused on experimentation and comprehension before trying to hack stuff up, I started enjoying myself more.
17:52	mehwork	it's always these obscure functions that end up being useful, like flatten. that function isn't covered in the book
17:52	mehwork	that's why i hate books. they're so unreal world
17:52	callen	mehwork: people tend to get better at things that enjoy faster than things they resent or are frustrated with.
17:52	Sgeo	mehwork, don't use flatten
17:53	ibdknox	dnolen: yeah, I'm using blind
17:53	callen	mehwork: just relax and cool your jets and you'll learn Clojure faster. The real world will always be waiting for you, just spend time with the book so that you have a better foundation of comprehension and don't have to constantly grasp about for a solution to an artifact of misapprehension.
17:53	dnolen	ibdknox: cool!
17:53	mehwork	it feels like clojure won't pay off until i start doing concurrent programming. It has been fun though to some degree. When things work it's like 'yeeeess' and when they don't it's like 'f uuuuuuu'
17:53	ibdknox	dnolen: I may end up trying to add comment preservation to it
17:54	mehwork	i'll take your advice another week
17:54	callen	mehwork: it pays off in many arenas outside of that. You just don't know it well enough yet.
17:54	ibdknox	dnolen: then we can do lossless code transforms :)
17:54	callen	mehwork: I've learned many languages to varying degrees of proficiency, just try...to take my word for it and relax.
17:54	callen	ibdknox: comments too? :P
17:54	mehwork	i have infinite patience. I mean i do php for a living
17:54	ibdknox	yep
17:54	dnolen	ibdknox: nice, yeah I'm looking forward to adding that as a dependency to CLJS - source mapping has stalled a bit because I need more column info.
17:55	mehwork	but then again i can use foreach for everything in php, including printing a nested data structure, which i'm so struggling to do in clojure right now ;p
17:55	callen	mehwork: I'd argue that PHP is a byproduct of extreme impatience with comprehension and good design and always shooting for the most readily available "solution" to a misunderstood problem. But duly noted.
17:55	mehwork	not at all trying to say that php is a better designed language than clojure in any way, shape or form, though
17:55	ibdknox	dnolen: I have a branch that adds position info to basically everything, including end-line and end-column
17:55	seangrove	callen: Not much, maybe ~512MB
17:55	callen	dnolen: aha, I was wondering what happened to sourcemaps.
17:55	mehwork	i just wonder if clojure can be a real world language more than a hobby thing in my spare time
17:56	dnolen	ibdknox: nice
17:56	callen	mehwork: that all depends on you and you alone
17:56	mehwork	is clojure like nodejs? not quite ready for prime time even though enthusiasts say it is?
17:56	dnolen	callen: soon as 1.5.0 goes out the door I will probably just merge the work into master
17:56	mehwork	and if so when will it be
17:56	callen	mehwork: plenty of companies and individual make a living off Clojure. Your obsession with "real world" here is harmful, not constructive. Learn for the sake of learning. If you find an opportunity to use Clojure, so be it. But don't let your whole life be dictated by economic priorities.
17:57	dnolen	callen: the infrastructure is in place - but some serious changes to emission are required for the next phase
17:57	borkdude	mehwork clojure is quite young in programming languages terms, also it's ecosystem (editors, libraries, etc) are still developing quite fast
17:57	ibdknox	dnolen: oh?
17:57	callen	dnolen: I ask because I'm in the middle of converting a frontend JS/HTML/CSS guy and he's an aggressive debugger like me. That means sourcemaps are sorely needed. Your work to that end is much appreciated btw.
17:57	ibdknox	dnolen: what kinds of changes to emission?
17:57	dnolen	ibdknox: yeah, CLJS just emits munged strings when it should emit vars nearly all the time.
17:58	callen	dnolen: I wish you weren't across the country, I'd get you a pint :P
17:58	mehwork	callen: well i'd like to. that's why i started learning it because i was told by other programmers that lisp will make you a better programmer just by knowing it. I've learned all the basic concepts this week and there's no way that it's changed me at all or will make me write code differently in other languages
17:58	dnolen	ibdknox: I want line/column information to tracked in pretty much one place - emit :var
17:58	ivan	mehwork: are you using regular Clojure datastructures? you can just print those the normal way
17:58	mehwork	maybe it's because i've already experienced functions HO functions in python and javascript
17:58	dnolen	ibdknox: but many names just get passed through as strings - which is just wrong anyway.
17:58	borkdude	mehwork you only did clojure for a week?
17:58	mehwork	ivan but i dont want to print it 'as' a data strcuture
17:58	ibdknox	dnolen: ah
17:59	mehwork	ivan iow i don't want to see []'s ()'s {}'s around what i'm printing
17:59	dnolen	callen: thx :)
17:59	mehwork	borkdude: yeah
18:00	borkdude	mehwork you expect to learn a new programming language in just one week and then have an opinion about it? try a year
18:00	dnolen	ibdknox: I can't imagine that will effect anything you're doing right?
18:00	mehwork	borkdude: sure, i did with python, ruby, javasript, php, ...
18:00	ibdknox	dnolen: not that I can think of
18:00	mehwork	borkdude: i'm trying to understand what exactly i will have leanred in a year that i havent learned already that will make a huge difference...
18:01	mehwork	lisp is an extremely simple language
18:01	mehwork	maybe it's because clojure isn't purely functional and i'm able to write it in a similar way to how i write everythign else, idk
18:02	mehwork	it doesn't feel much diff than using a lot of list comprehensions and generators in python, for example
18:02	mehwork	other than it's a looot harder to change the value of a variable
18:02	ivan	mehwork: (doseq [[k v] {:a :b :x :z}] (print k v \newline))
18:02	borkdude	mehwork maybe clojure isn't just really what you are looking for - for many people clojure is the answer to "I want a lisp on the JVM"
18:03	mehwork	maybe. I'm just dissapointed in the sense that i thought it would be some earthshattering 'change the way you think forever' like i always heard. Maybe you have to get to an advanced place with it for that to happen?
18:03	gfredericks	"I want a practical functional language with persistent data structures"
18:03	borkdude	mehwork so if lisp and JVM both aren't appealing to you, maybe dynamically typed and functional will, but I don't know what you're looking for
18:04	ivan	you have to get burned by mutation a hundred times first
18:04	mehwork	is the 'not having side effects' really the only enlightening thing about it?
18:04	gfredericks	mehwork: if you're not used to immutable data structures, that can be a valuable aspect as well
18:04	seangrove	mehwork: Macros are another obvious one
18:04	mehwork	ivan i have been, but i can usually write unit tests. Granted i havent done any real threaded programming
18:04	gfredericks	that goes along with "no side effects"
18:05	mehwork	macros are usually a clever, and thus bad, thing. at least in other languages. I haven't done much with them in clojure yet. Anyway i'll stick to it a little longer
18:05	llasram	mehwork: After Clojure really "clicked," it definitely changed how I write code. My co-workers joke that my Ruby/Python is Clojure in Ruby/Python syntax
18:05	mehwork	llasram: seems like a good way to write unreadable code
18:06	gfredericks	llasram: I did that and my coworkers called it "frankenruby" and deleted it
18:06	seangrove	mehwork: Having powerful features in a language doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to use them wisely
18:06	ibdknox	the real lessons are not any of the things mentioned so far, I don't think. Those are simply aspects of Clojure. The real lesson is in what the combination of all these things moves you towards.
18:06	seangrove	I'd agree with ibdknox
18:06	ibdknox	The way you naturally end up writing Clojure is what's so interesting
18:07	ibdknox	and that is not something you can learn in a week
18:07	seangrove	But Clojure is pretty practical, it's not required to be earth-shattering
18:07	mehwork	it reminds me a lot of what perl felt like the first week i learned it
18:07	mehwork	terse and hard to read but practical
18:08	ibdknox	I actually find Clojure to be easier to read than most any language these days
18:08	mehwork	it's nice not having useless braces and semicolons everywhere like in javascript and php
18:08	borkdude	it largely depends on how it's written. you can obfuscate pretty much anything
18:08	gfredericks	especially languages with lots of infix things with precedences that you have to memorize
18:08	mehwork	but python and ruby dont have them either
18:09	mehwork	i guess i'm mainly spoiled by python and ruby
18:09	mehwork	they're very practical, easy to read and learn. Clojure has to somehow beat them at something for me to keep it up i guess
18:09	gfredericks	mehwork: after using clojure for 4 years, and ruby for about the same amount of time, programming in ruby makes me terribly uncomfortable
18:09	mehwork	maybe the problem is i don't really care about the jvm
18:10	mehwork	but even if i did, there's still jruby and jython
18:10	mehwork	gfredericks: how come
18:10	gfredericks	mehwork: 60% pervasive mutability, 30% having to fit everything into an OO design
18:10	borkdude	mehwork maybe this is interesting to see http://tin.nu/sudoku.html - just to compare python and clojure
18:11	xeqi	gfredericks: 10% other?
18:11	gfredericks	yeah there's a long tail
18:11	clj-newb-2345	has anyone tried to build an "OS" on top of java or clojure?
18:11	gfredericks	somewhere in the long tail is the fact that "- 2" and "-2" have different semantics :)
18:11	clj-newb-2345	besides the inability to kill java threads, it seems like it'd be rather cute
18:12	epitron	gfredericks: do you have any examples of frankenruby? i'm curious what it looks like :)
18:12	ibdknox	I don't care about the JVM
18:12	ibdknox	never have
18:12	gfredericks	epitron: A) all your code goes in static methods on modules (i.e., namespaces); B) use hamster for data structures; C) use some atoms lib for state
18:12	clj-newb-2345	ibdknox: what do you run clojure on?
18:13	gfredericks	epitron: doubt I have any links, but I'll let you imagine it
18:13	epitron	gfredericks: what's hamster?
18:13	gfredericks	immutable data structures
18:13	epitron	ahh
18:13	epitron	and what's an atoms lib?
18:13	gfredericks	a lib that gives you atoms. I.e., a reference type that holds a value
18:14	epitron	how is that different from a variable?
18:14	gfredericks	more awkward
18:14	gfredericks	and maybe threadsafe
18:14	epitron	:O
18:14	epitron	so basically, you use some libraries that make ruby immutable?
18:14	gfredericks	well it gives you immutable data structures; doesn't make anything else immutable
18:14	daimrod	"maybe threadsafe" doesn't sound really safe...
18:15	ibdknox	clj-newb-2345: I use mostly cljs these days.
18:15	ibdknox	clj-newb-2345: so a lot of nodejs
18:15	gfredericks	daimrod: I meant it depends on the lib; not that the goal is to sometimes be threadsafe
18:15	clj-newb-2345	I piad with cljs for a while; couldn't get used to it's lack of debugging tools
18:15	clj-newb-2345	but definitely clojure-ish
18:15	gfredericks	ibdknox: I'm curious what are the benefits of node-cljs over jvm-clj
18:16	epitron	clj-newb-2345: have you tried lighttable?
18:16	clj-newb-2345	gfredericks: having never tried node, I bet it starts up faster :-)
18:16	clj-newb-2345	epitron: I thought itw as still in development
18:17	mehwork	the other main thing that's bugging me about clojure is how slow lein is. Everytime i type 'lein run' on my super tiny project it takes 5 seconds to start on a super fast machine which slows development down a ton. WHat's up with that?
18:17	epitron	clj-newb-2345: it is, but it's usable
18:17	epitron	they guy made a game with it recently
18:17	borkdude	mehwork what version of leiningen are you using?
18:17	ibdknox	gfredericks: in my case? It solved the deployment story for me. Aside from startup time, I wouldn't say one is better than the other... they're just different ecosystems
18:17	mehwork	borkdude: 1.7.1
18:17	epitron	http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/12/11/anatomy-of-a-knockout/
18:18	ibdknox	mehwork: JVM startup is really slow
18:18	clj-newb-2345	mehwork: I solved that problem with a ~100 line topological sort algorithm that figured out what module needed reloading nad reloaded them (with one persistent lein session)
18:18	llasram	gfredericks: I can see the risk of frakenruby, but I mostly meant structuring things to avoid locking values and operations into classes. A bit more of a functional style to individual methods perhaps, but nothing too overboard
18:18	ibdknox	epitron: lol that guy is me ;)
18:18	mehwork	clj-newb-2345: great, but i have no idea what you just said
18:18	epitron	ibdknox: o hai!
18:18	epitron	:)
18:19	clj-newb-2345	mehwork: to get around the lein startup time, you can run one lein session, then have it dynamically reload your code with you make modifications
18:19	llasram	mehwork: For one thing, the workflow most people use doesn't involve spinning up a new JVM (as with `lein run`) very ofter
18:19	llasram	(inc clj-newb-2345)
18:19	mehwork	clj-newb-2345: interesting. how?
18:19	lazybot	⇒ 1
18:19	llasram	mehwork: What editor are you using?
18:19	mehwork	vi
18:19	borkdude	mehwork 1.7.1 is considered old, but it's probably the JVM startup time ibdknox is talking about. Usually you don't need to restart a clojure project that often though, while developing.
18:19	clj-newb-2345	hmm, I'ma ctually interested in hearing llasram's solution first :-)
18:19	clj-newb-2345	[mine is a bit adhoc]
18:20	llasram	I use emacs myself, but there's https://github.com/sattvik/lein-tarsier and https://github.com/tpope/vim-foreplay
18:21	llasram	You run a REPL server once, then connect to it from your editor, then restart it v v rarely
18:21	mehwork	cool
18:21	clj-newb-2345	gah, nailgun <-- always had weird situations where I had to resttart everything
18:22	llasram	Yeah. The vim side definitely doesn't have as many people working on it
18:22	mehwork	why is emacs favored for lisp languages
18:22	clj-newb-2345	I don't really mind emacs, it's elisp that I can't stand; if someone write an editor in clojure ....
18:22	gfredericks	paredit!
18:23	seangrove	<3 paredit
18:24	mehwork	someone should make a lisp based operating system, instead of in C. C being so popular makes c-like languages (perl, python, etc) popular. Lisp seems like it still has a lot to prove
18:25	gfredericks	once the hardware runs lisp...
18:25	mehwork	plus i think if there was such a project i'd jump on contributing because i hate c but lisp is tolerable
18:25	stain_	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine - you can watch it in its glory in Boston at least
18:25	clj-newb-2345	hmm, let's call it symbolics
18:26	mehwork	itd probably be best if it was a new project on github, and didn't have the word 'museum' attaached to it ;)
18:26	ibdknox	clj-newb-2345: I am writing an editor in clj :p
18:26	dnolen	mehwork: heh, Lisp doesn't have to prove anything. Interpreted languages, dynamic memory allocation, high level meta programming - that all started with Lisp.
18:26	clj-newb-2345	ibdknox: cool, tell me more
18:26	ibdknox	lol
18:26	ibdknox	clj-newb-2345: Light Table
18:27	mehwork	dnolen: i just mean for lisp to get the respect it deserves
18:27	gfredericks	the googles know about it
18:27	epitron	mehwork: i think the major problem is that few languages can produce C-linkable libraries, and the whole OS is build out of those
18:27	clj-newb-2345	ibdknox: ah, you are the light table guy?
18:27	ibdknox	yeah
18:27	epitron	mehwork: did you see alan kay's little experiment?
18:27	mehwork	otherwise it makes lisp seem like smalltalk in the sense of being influential but not good enough o its own
18:27	mehwork	epitron: which one
18:27	clj-newb-2345	ibdknox: I should go tell the YC guys you're wasting time on IRC rather than coding. :-)
18:27	epitron	mehwork: STEPS
18:27	ibdknox	lol
18:28	mehwork	no
18:28	epitron	mehwork: quick summary: reinventing the entire OS, from the metal up to the UI, in under 20,000 lines of code
18:28	epitron	spent 5 years on it
18:28	epitron	they managed to do it
18:28	clj-newb-2345	epitron: is this the FONCs guys ?
18:28	epitron	it's made out of language transformers
18:28	epitron	clj-newb-2345: that's the one!
18:28	seangrove	ibdknox: Any emails from pg these days?
18:29	epitron	it currently takes the form of a bunch of talks and a bunch of papers: http://vpri.org/html/writings.php
18:29	mehwork	so is the real problem not lying with lisp, but with programmers in general who tend to like oop/procedural based languages?
18:29	seangrove	Few things more unnerving than pg asking for a status update :P
18:29	clj-newb-2345	epitron: wait, so they actually have an OS rather than a bunch of ideas? [I'm on the mailing list, and every week, there's some new guy that pops up, proposes a bunchof ground shaking ideas, and doesn't implement anything]
18:29	epitron	mehwork: i think picking any one language as the foundation of your OS will mean that you can't evolve it
18:29	epitron	STEPS is designed to be late bound all the way through
18:29	mehwork	people hated whitespace in python but it still grows in popularity. Why is 'parens' in lisp such a deal breaker to most people?
18:29	epitron	so that it can evolve
18:30	dnolen	mehwork: I'm not sure there is a problem.
18:30	epitron	mehwork: people are different :)
18:30	ibdknox	seangrove: hm? we talked with him a bit ago.
18:30	epitron	that doesn't mean we shouldn't work together
18:30	seangrove	ibdknox: I haven't been in for office hours for awhile, and just got an email out of the blue asking for a status update
18:30	seangrove	Still wondering what set it off...
18:31	clj-newb-2345	seangrove: what startup are you workingon?
18:31	seangrove	Zenbox
18:31	ibdknox	seangrove: he does that every once in a while
18:31	mehwork	there seems to be something strange in the idea that i should be open minded enough to switch from ruby to clojure/lisp but then not be open minded enough to 'go back' to any other languages after i've done so
18:32	mehwork	every language seems to say the same thing "come to us and you'll never wanna go back"
18:32	epitron	languages are made of two things: semantics and syntax
18:32	mehwork	every high level language anyway
18:32	epitron	syntax is like a "theme"
18:32	epitron	you can implement the same semantics with many different syntaxes
18:32	clj-newb-2345	i.e. they're all turing complete
18:32	borkdude	mehwork what about choosing many languages at the same time and choosing them wisely for whatever you're working on
18:32	epitron	it would be nice if languages using the same semantics could just be translated between each other
18:32	mehwork	then how can one objectively be better
18:32	epitron	clj-newb-2345: turing completeness is a very trivial semantic :)
18:33	ibdknox	mehwork: fwiw, I've used most mainstream languages out there extensively, even owned the future of a couple, and don't care to go back to any of them :)
18:33	mehwork	ibdknox: right but i can go to #ruby, #python, etc and here the same thing about those languages
18:33	mehwork	and have them say they tried clojure and went back
18:33	clj-newb-2345	clojure is almost perfect, it lacks one thing for me: the conciseness of mathematica, unfortunatey, that doesn't play well with ()'s
18:33	mehwork	it all seems very subjective
18:33	ibdknox	and it is
18:33	dnolen	mehwork: to me Ruby & Python are not different in any way that is interesting.
18:33	clj-newb-2345	no, some people are wrong, others pick clojure
18:34	epitron	a language is a tool.
18:34	mehwork	it feels like the same arguments as emacs vs vim
18:34	mehwork	personal preference and nothing more
18:34	ibdknox	at some level that is true
18:34	epitron	if you wanted to make webapps, ruby is probably a better choice at the moment :)
18:34	mehwork	clojure will be better at certain things but it can be better at literally everything
18:34	mehwork	and that's why there's always a tug-of-war
18:34	epitron	if you want to do hardcore shit, clojure seems a better choice
18:35	mehwork	epitron: well for example, why should a web developer choose clojure/ring over ruby on rails or python django
18:35	clj-newb-2345	if cojure had llvm bindings, so one could create low latency code, it'd be complete
18:36	epitron	mehwork: the usefulness of a language for solving a certain problem depends on the language's capabilities and the size of the developer community
18:36	mehwork	why doesn't it have llvm bindings? evne haskell does
18:36	epitron	because nobody does language development in ruby :)
18:36	epitron	if 100,000 people started making webapps in clojure, it would be awesome for making webapps :)
18:36	mehwork	epitron: well Io has a huge library set and is very capable, but no one uses it
18:36	dnolen	mehwork: the problem is that programmers only want to talk about the good stuff. Those systems have incredible amounts of bad stuff.
18:36	mehwork	so maybe it only coems down to size of community
18:36	epitron	yep
18:36	epitron	right
18:36	epitron	but you grow your community by making the language good at doing something
18:36	epitron	and people start using that tool
18:37	epitron	Io probably never did that
18:37	dnolen	Io is dog slow
18:37	epitron	hah
18:37	mehwork	Io decided to become an embedded language
18:37	epitron	that's good for NOTHING
18:38	mehwork	on the server there's no monopoly like javascript on the web client
18:38	epitron	there are ecosystems
18:38	epitron	a thriving ecosystem makes it easy to do things
18:38	epitron	a sparse ecosystem means you have to develop your own things
18:38	mehwork	programmers always talk about how we should use the right tool for the job, yet we make all these different languages and none of them perfect
18:39	mehwork	in the real world we'd make an automatic drill instead of screw driver, just just to be an alternative but because it's better
18:39	epitron	it's not entirely the language
18:39	epitron	it's also the libraries
18:39	mehwork	there's only so many nail hammers and they all look the same
18:39	epitron	ruby wasn't good for webapps until DHH made rails
18:39	mehwork	that's using the right tool
18:40	Dirklectisch	Hi everyone!
18:40	Dirklectisch	I could use some advice on dynamically loading namespaces on runtime. Depending on the users config file the code should decide from which namespace to get some functions. I tried:
18:40	Dirklectisch	(use [(get config :parser 'myapp.parsers.default) :only '(load-tasks)])
18:40	Dirklectisch	Problem is that changing your config file now requires you to recompile the whole project before it will actually use the other namespace. Any pointers?
18:40	mehwork	i just feel like everything we're doing is prehistoric and we're still stuck in prehistoric times and my grand kids won't be doing c, python, ruby, or lisp or javascript
18:40	mehwork	at least not in their current forms
18:40	epitron	hah
18:40	epitron	i agree with the first part
18:41	epitron	i'm not sure about the second :)
18:41	mehwork	the second part has a sad likelihood of being wrong
18:41	mehwork	based of history :/
18:41	epitron	heh
18:41	epitron	in one of vernor vinge's books, humanity had spread across the galaxy.. and their software stack was this gigantic mountain of hacks
18:42	epitron	it was thousands of years of cruft piled on top of cruft
18:42	mehwork	like our spoken languages?
18:42	epitron	i suppose!
18:42	stain_	when I learnt programming it was Pascal that was the big thing - obviously kids these days don't know what that is. C was there back then,. being just as difficult to use properly as of today
18:42	borkdude	mehwork I think you're right in the sense that we want to specify the solution to a problem more declaratively than is now the case in almost all existing programming languages
18:43	mehwork	borkdude: iow i shouldn't be excited about any current lang. Maybe that's teh right attitude, rather than trying to find the 'one' to be excited about
18:43	epitron	declarativeness is basically just stating the goals and letting something else build the program :)
18:43	borkdude	mehwork people say: functional programming is more about the "what", then the "how", that's crap - we're still telling "how" in clojure or Haskell
18:43	mehwork	if the goal is to solve problems and right "cool apps" then i could do that in php or javascript
18:43	mehwork	or rails
18:44	epitron	and the only reason that's tenable is because there are so many people writing stuff for js and ruby
18:44	epitron	you have a mountain of libraries
18:44	epitron	it's like perl's cpan
18:44	epitron	perl is pretty gross, but everything is already written :)
18:44	borkdude	but as long as we're stuck in pre-history, I like clojure ;-)
18:44	mehwork	willlllllmaaaa
18:44	mehwork	maybe i was born in the wrong century, but i'm not happy with anything right now
18:44	mehwork	or maybe i just need some anti-depressants
18:45	epitron	you ever read alarmingdevelopment.org? :)
18:45	mehwork	nope
18:45	borkdude	mehwork are you living in northern scandinavia?
18:45	mehwork	i've read lambda-the-ultimate
18:45	epitron	http://alarmingdevelopment.org/?p=6
18:45	mehwork	borkdude: beautiful southern california. Where everyone is a rails brogrammer or javasript dude
18:46	epitron	or a visionary
18:46	epitron	^_^
18:46	mehwork	i said javascript dude
18:46	epitron	visionaries hire the javascript dudes
18:46	mehwork	html5 is the only vision people have right now
18:46	epitron	to make the next facebook
18:47	epitron	it's facebook... FOR CARS
18:47	mehwork	sadly people prefer to copy rather than innovate
18:47	mehwork	vsauce on youtube did a good piece on why people prefer familiar things, which is why most music sounds the same
18:48	mehwork	even though there's a huge range of potential music that's not been explored
18:48	epitron	humans have tiny brains
18:48	mehwork	clojure will get enough of the next generation doing lisp for it to feel natural to them and thus become familiar and mainstream
18:48	epitron	they can't take a 5000 year old evolved artform and reinvent it from scratch by themselves :)
18:49	mehwork	maybe the aliens will save us
18:49	mehwork	and bring us their wares and languages
18:49	epitron	or we'll just juice ourselves up
18:49	mehwork	humans are good at deconstructing
18:50	mehwork	the thigns we've reverse engineered just to make money is amazing. We really need to reverse engineer some alien stuff already
18:50	mehwork	OR we need to stop teaching kids that drugs are bad :)
18:50	mehwork	acid for everyone!
18:51	mehwork	why is it acceptible to get drunk at your holiday party and lose braincells and come in hung over and stupid and tired
18:51	mehwork	but pot or acid is the devil!
18:51	mehwork	wonder if that will be the case 100 years from now
18:52	epitron	Beer is one of the world's oldest prepared beverages, possibly dating back to the early Neolithic or 9500 BC, when cereal was first farmed,[11] and is recorded in the written history of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia.[12] Archaeologists speculate that beer was instrumental in the formation of civilisations.[13]
18:52	mehwork	considering that every commercial on tv is for some dangeros prescription drug, i doubt it
18:52	epitron	pot and acid on the other hand were formative in making people sit around and not work :D
18:52	borkdude	epitron I like to hear that, thanks ;)
18:53	mehwork	beer or alcohol in general?
18:53	epitron	don't split hairs
18:53	borkdude	gtg
18:55	mehwork	tbh i've never done drugs so i'm speaking from others' experiences which could be totally false. Surely mandelbrot's were discovered by a stoner
18:55	mehwork	all i know is classic rock > justin beiber
18:55	mehwork	and the osmands
18:55	epitron	pot and acid definitely help art. but not industrialization.
18:56	epitron	industrialization requires lots of little robots
18:56	mehwork	well which is programming closer to
18:56	epitron	exactly
18:56	seangrove	epitron: Weird
18:56	mehwork	i'd like to artfully program some robots
18:56	seangrove	I feel acid should basically be a required experience for everyone
18:57	epitron	they tried that in the 60's
18:57	epitron	it was bad :D
18:57	mehwork	they over tried it
18:57	epitron	people realized what was going on, and decided to stop being robots
18:58	mehwork	i don't think drugs are the only way to expad your mind
18:58	mehwork	just a shortcut
18:58	epitron	yep
18:58	epitron	one that can backfire
18:58	mehwork	music can do it
18:58	mehwork	meditation
18:58	mehwork	exercise
18:58	epitron	reading books
18:58	mehwork	learnin lisp :\|
18:58	epitron	sleep deprivation
18:58	mehwork	though i'm having a bad trip
18:58	mehwork	feeling like the walls ()'s are closing in on me
19:23	bosie	TimMc:t
19:25	bosie	TimMc: sorry
19:46	hyPiRion	Aaah, GitHub is down
19:46	ibdknox	oh no's
19:47	hyPiRion	Indeed
19:58	bbloom	hyPiRion: luckily, git itself can't go down
19:58	bbloom	:-)
20:00	hyPiRion	Yeah, that's actually very nice
20:00	hyPiRion	But I still have possibility to download 1.5.0 RC 1
20:01	hyPiRion	have no*
20:01	mehwork	won't be long till someone makes a virus that infects all code on github
20:02	gfredericks	that would be difficult to do undetected.
20:02	mehwork	would get deteted very quickly but the damage would already be done
20:03	AimHere	There was an HN post about someone using a github pull request to attempt to (badly) deface someone's website
20:03	AimHere	Sortof a "This virus uses the honour system. Please trash your own files"
20:04	mehwork	i haven't seen a defaced website in a long time. Used to see them daily in the late 90s
20:05	gfredericks	you could definitely infect direct downloads
20:05	mehwork	maybe i just don't pay attention
20:05	gfredericks	good thing we never download files directly from github, like e.g. lein
20:05	Bronsa	http://kimochi.ath.cx/up/687869eb8e83448319778f19704f01e7.gz clojure 1.5-RC1
20:07	hyPiRion	Bronsa: I believe it's up in the maven central too, I need the source :(
20:07	hyPiRion	but thanks anyway
20:07	hyPiRion	(inc Bronsa)
20:07	Bronsa	hyPiRion: yeah, that's the source
20:07	lazybot	⇒ 2
20:07	hyPiRion	oh
20:08	hyPiRion	But without the git repo
20:08	hyPiRion	Oh well, not too critical when testing patches
20:09	Bronsa	with the .git it would have been 35MB :P
20:09	hyPiRion	--depth=30 :D
20:14	Raynes	~gourds
20:14	clojurebot	SQUEEZE HIM!
20:14	Raynes	Gets me every time.
20:16	hyPiRion	heh
20:27	gfredericks	I wonder how many of my lengthy ->> forms could be turned into lengthy for's
20:29	amalloy	all of them, man
20:30	gfredericks	not the perverse ones that end in (let ...) or (try ...)
20:30	gfredericks	or (defn ...)
20:31	amalloy	pretty sure behavior like that gets you smited
20:32	hyPiRion	gfredericks: (->> ... ) with a... defn?
20:34	gfredericks	(->> [1 2 3] (mapcat #(list x %)) (apply +) with-out-str (defn totes []) (let [x 15]))
20:36	hyPiRion	hahah, wow
20:36	gfredericks	could add to the end of that (->> ... (catch Exception e) (try (/ 8 0))) for completeness
20:36	gfredericks	haha no you can't
20:37	gfredericks	that must be CLJ-1121
20:38	hyPiRion	That is a feature we need for lazybot
20:38	hyPiRion	Lookup issues
20:38	gfredericks	$google CLJ-1121
20:38	lazybot	[[#CLJ-1121] -> and ->> have unexpected behavior when combined ...] http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1121
20:38	hyPiRion	$jira CLJ-1121
20:38	hyPiRion	:(
20:38	hyPiRion	though that one suffices, I suppose
20:43	gfredericks	yep it's indeed related to that issue
20:44	gfredericks	clearly not enough clojurians write code like ##(->> :phew (catch Exception e) (try (/ 42 0))) or we would have noticed this a while ago
20:44	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! catch is bad!
20:44	gfredericks	lazybot: thanks kid
20:45	hyPiRion	Who catch things anyway
20:46	gfredericks	(defmacro without-problems [& forms] `(try ~@forms (catch Throwable t :it-all-good)))
21:08	gfredericks	are data readers not meant to be used in clojure source?
21:08	hyPiRion	In the source? Why asking
21:08	hyPiRion	?
21:08	gfredericks	I defined one for dates
21:09	gfredericks	then when I try (eval (list 'list my-date)) I get "Can't embed object in code"
21:09	gfredericks	so if eval doesn't accept the object being there I'm not sure why the regular compiler would?
21:09	gfredericks	it works with a uuid though
21:09	hyPiRion	Oh, I thought you meant "core.clj" in Clojure
21:10	gfredericks	ah no
21:10	gfredericks	the exception msg continues with "maybe print-dup not defined"
21:10	gfredericks	but I can't imagine what print-dup has to do with eval
21:12	gfredericks	oh nevermind I figured out my actual problem I think
21:13	gfredericks	well the eval might well still be a problem
21:14	hyPiRion	oh hey, this may be interesting
21:14	gfredericks	should this be considered a bug?
21:15	gfredericks	I can work around it with good old clojure.walk; but it's still inconvenient
21:15	hyPiRion	What about read-string. What does it return?
21:15	gfredericks	the data reader is working correctly
21:16	gfredericks	yeah, I just confirmed that the compiler accepts the literal in code, but c.c/eval doesn't
21:16	hyPiRion	Could you hook it in with data-readers?
21:16	gfredericks	the thing is already read at the time
21:17	gfredericks	it's an object at this point
21:17	hyPiRion	Hm.
21:17	gfredericks	i.e., I can (def thing #my/date [2012 1 1]) but I cannot (eval '(def thing #my/date [2012 1 1]))
21:17	hyPiRion	Funny thing: do "lein repl" and type in "#uuid 1234"
21:18	gfredericks	that's probably nrepl crashing?
21:18	hyPiRion	it turns out an assertion error, so probably
21:19	hyPiRion	,#uuid 1234
21:19	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: (string? form)>
21:19	gfredericks	probably nrepl only expects some particular set of errors from the reader
21:19	hyPiRion	&#uuid 1234
21:19	hyPiRion	Most likely
21:19	hyPiRion	echo echo
21:19	lazybot	echo
21:34	gfredericks	oh I take it back
21:34	gfredericks	the compiler sometimes rejects it as well
21:34	gfredericks	I can (def thing #my/date [2012 1 1]) but cannot (defn thing [] #my/date [2012 1 1])
21:34	gfredericks	I guess def doesn't really get compiled the same way
21:35	hyPiRion	what does `thing` print?
21:35	gfredericks	in the former case it would print the object using the print-method I defined. In the latter it's a compile error
21:39	gfredericks	I guess def doesn't necessarily involve any compiling at all
21:40	gfredericks	yeah eval allows the def as well
21:44	gfredericks	at least they're consistent. But that makes data readers seem 2% less useful
21:45	mehwork	can't believe github is still down
21:46	gfredericks	I bet github can't believe github is down in the middle of the holidays like this
21:49	amalloy	i wonder how long they'd have to stay down before people start switching to bitbucket
21:49	gfredericks	I wonder what the halflife is
21:49	gfredericks	every week half of the remaining users switch to bitbucket?
21:58	mehwork	no but bighub.com is taken
22:14	muhoo	sigh infoq presentations do not work on android tablets
22:45	wingy	noooo
22:53	muhoo	well not on mine at least (CM9)
23:01	ivan	heh, first google suggestion for "infoq" is "infoq rich hickey"
23:03	ivan	video is working for me in Chrome on Nexus 4
23:06	muhoo	ivan: thanks! chrome works, i was using firefox.
23:13	pppppppppaul	Hey guys
23:14	pppppppppaul	Github is back up
23:14	pppppppppaul	Best Xmas ever
23:16	wingy	thought the end of the world wasn't over yet
23:39	wingy	hey guys .. i have a hash map and wanna iterate only the ones with :item-type.property/x as keys .. how do i do that? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7822
23:53	theatticlight	Why are you putting your keys in separate namespaces?
23:53	TimMc	theatticlight: Why not?
23:53	theatticlight	Just wondering... seems odd to me.
23:53	abp	,(map :kw [{:kw 1 ;x 2} {:kw 6 ;x 5}])
23:53	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
23:54	TimMc	abp: ;
23:54	abp	,(map :kw [{:kw 1 :x 2} {:kw 6 :x 5}])
23:54	clojurebot	(1 6)
23:54	abp	wingy ^
23:54	TimMc	Not quite, wingy wants keywords from a certain namespace.
23:54	abp	TimMc, yep, this damned irc client loves cutting of my font baseline :(
23:54	tomoj	(for [[k v] m :when (and (symbol? k) (= (namespace k) "item-type.property"))] [k v]) :/
23:54	tomoj	wingy: datomic?
23:54	wingy	i want the keywords with the :item-type.property/ prefix
23:54	wingy	tomoj: yeah
23:55	TimMc	wingy: You want to suck out just those vals, or update those vals?
23:55	abp	ah ok, misread
23:55	tomoj	it would seem better to pick out the attributes you want ahead of time and just use select-keys, if possible
23:55	wingy	TimMc: i want to just read them
23:55	tomoj	you could pull all the attributes out of datomic and group them by ns ahead of time or something
23:55	wingy	hmm .. maybe i can query them?
23:55	theatticlight	You can get the namespace from a keyword with the "namespace" function
23:55	tomoj	s/symbol?/keyword?/ ofc
23:56	theatticlight	yes
23:56	TimMc	,(into {} (for [[k v] {:foo/a 1 :foo/b 2 :c 3} :when (= (namespace k) "foo")] [k v]))
23:56	clojurebot	{:foo/b 2, :foo/a 1}
23:56	tomoj	(:db.install/attribute (d/entity db :db.part/db)) will give you all the attributes, iirc
23:57	wingy	theatticlight: yeah (namespace :item-type.property/usb-2_0-ports) => :item-type.property
23:57	wingy	i can filter by that
23:57	wingy	TimMc: great
23:57	TimMc	,(filter #(= (namespace %) "foo") (keys {:foo/a 1 :foo/b 2 :c 3})
23:57	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
23:57	TimMc	,(filter #(= (namespace %) "foo") (keys {:foo/a 1 :foo/b 2 :c 3}))
23:57	clojurebot	(:foo/b :foo/a)
23:58	abp	I need to get accustomed to that into-ism
23:58	abp	,(filter #(= (namespace (first %)) "x") {:x/a 1 :x/b 2 :a/b 1})
23:58	clojurebot	([:x/a 1] [:x/b 2])