#clojure – 2012-12-14

2012-12-14

00:02	Raynes	Stencil is also much faster, IIRC.
00:08	dabd	if i call (do (clojure.java.shell/sh some-external-command) (foo result-from-external-command)) how can I assure foo will not be called before the external command terminated?
00:09	lucian	dabd: afaik .../sh will block until the command finishes
00:16	dabd	lucian: thanks, I will try it
00:45	vsync	TimMc: nice meeting you sir
00:54	Raynes	You don't know him well enough.
02:13	devn	hello fellow clojurians
02:13	devn	Raynes: good day, sir
02:14	Raynes	devn: Heyo
02:14	devn	rbranson: Richard Branson? Do Clojurians get a discount Virgin Air rate?
02:15	devn	Raynes: whatcha working on?
02:15	Raynes	devn: A new html transformation library.
02:15	devn	cool!
02:15	Raynes	It even has a cool name, laser.
02:15	devn	oh man, i love lasers
02:15	devn	im going to use this library of yours
02:16	Raynes	lol
02:16	devn	speaking of which, there's this logging tool that has a great line on their homepage
02:16	devn	http://graylog2.org/
02:16	devn	"Manage your logs in the dark and have lasers going and make it look like you're from space."
02:16	devn	best tagline ever
02:20	Raynes	Nice.
02:23	Raynes	devn: https://github.com/Raynes/laser
02:25	benedikt	Is there a simpler way to write small programs with cljoure than lein? Something that doesn't require a "project"?
02:27	Raynes	You usually want a project.
02:28	benedikt	Not me. I think that's more of a personal preference then a technical dependency.
02:28	Raynes	https://github.com/mtyaka/lein-oneoff but it hasn't been updated in quite a while.
02:28	Raynes	Well, not really.
02:29	Raynes	All of the tools in Clojure's eco system are based around projects.
02:29	Raynes	So from a technical standpoint, you usually want a project.
02:29	benedikt	Not if i want to write a simple single-purpose program
02:29	Raynes	You're missing the point. :p
02:29	Raynes	I'm just saying that you might find it hard to do things without a project.
02:30	Raynes	Your reason for doing it may be perfectly valid.
02:30	Raynes	Clojure isn't really suited to one-off scripts like that.
02:30	benedikt	Ah
02:30	benedikt	But if lein manages dependencies system-wide, then whats from stopping me using a clojure process that knows where lein stores its stuff?
02:30	Raynes	The JVM has a large startup time, and that's the biggest problem for shell scripty things.
02:32	Raynes	Oneoff is probably what you want, but it hasn't een updated to work with lein 2. :(
02:32	benedikt	Yes, and nobody uses Java for scripting.
02:35	Raynes	devn: I'll give you a cookie if you actually do use laser.
02:38	benedikt	Raynes: so you mean that the way clojure (and implicitly java/jvm) makes clojure sub-optimal for those "quick and dirty" things anywaysÐ
02:38	benedikt	s/Ð/?
02:39	Raynes	If you need it to start up fast, Clojure isn't the right tool for that job.
02:39	Raynes	Which is why I hope Clojure implementations on other platforms mature.
02:39	Raynes	There is a very immature Ruby implementation with decent startup speed.
02:39	Raynes	There is also a Python one, but it is pretty slow to.
02:39	benedikt	I was more thinking like if i were to solve a project euler problem or something of the likes
02:40	benedikt	There is a python implementation of clojure?
02:40	Raynes	too*
02:40	Raynes	$google clojurepy
02:40	lazybot	[halgari/clojure-py · GitHub] https://github.com/halgari/clojure-py
02:40	benedikt	wat
02:40	Raynes	Indeed.
02:40	Raynes	Not sure if it is still active.
02:40	Raynes	Hah
02:40	Raynes	Looks like yes
02:40	Raynes	Last update 4 hours ago
02:40	benedikt	does this mean that it has Python interlope and not Java interlope?
02:41	Raynes	Yes.
02:41	benedikt	Curious
02:42	benedikt	(Sidenote: why are java programs faster to start than clojure? Is it because clojure has to be loaded to a jvm every single time?)
02:42	ivan	you just need a fast-starting client to interact with a running JVM
02:42	Raynes	Java programs don't start much faster.
02:42	benedikt	I havent used Java in a while..
02:42	amalloy	Raynes: java programs start a lot faster
02:43	Raynes	amalloy: Any benchmarks?
02:43	Raynes	It doesn't surprise me, but I'd be curious to see the numbers.
02:44	benedikt	I wonder if this is a lexer+parser+tac generator
02:44	amalloy	Raynes: i wrote a demo in java that spins up ten threads that do a thousand additions each - ie, basically nothing. `time java Threaded`: 0.053s
02:44	akhudek	You can massively improve the startup time of a large clojure program by AOT compiling the entire thing.
02:44	benedikt	probably not tac, but python as intermediate language
02:44	amalloy	`time lein repl < /dev/null`: 8.051s
02:44	Raynes	lein repl is a horrible command for checking startup time, amalloy.
02:44	amalloy	yeah yeah
02:44	Raynes	It spins up like 20 java processes.
02:45	Raynes	Use lein version for that sort of thing.
02:45	amalloy	2.67s
02:45	amalloy	java is still fifty times faster
02:45	Raynes	Well, life sucks.
02:46	Raynes	ivan: Drip-like things are nice but not really a panacea.
02:46	Raynes	What'd be great is to not have to do hacks.
02:46	benedikt	`time clojure < /dev/null` 2.2s
02:49	ivan	Raynes: multitenant JVM, assuming it is smart enough to share the JITed code
02:50	akhudek	amalloy: wait, how is that possible, just running the java binary with no program takes longer than 0.053s
02:51	amalloy	akhudek: for me, that takes 0.09s. presumably it loads some classes that do i/o or whatever to decide on the version/help output, which aren't loaded for my simple program
02:51	echo-area	Doesn't setting up Clojure runtime require at least ~2 secs?
02:51	akhudek	huh, amazing. I had no idea Java could start up an actual program that quickly.
02:52	echo-area	At least it requires here.
02:52	ivan	you can make Clojure start faster by turning off bytecode verification
02:52	Raynes	amalloy: Why do people complain about slow jvm startup time then?
02:52	ivan	and giving Intel more money
02:52	akhudek	Raynes: oh yes
02:52	Raynes	If it is that fast, it looks like the problem is Clojure startup time.
02:54	akhudek	I'm assuming that amalloy's example was fast because it didn't load the majority of the java library
02:54	Raynes	We should just never load anything ever then.
02:54	Raynes	Just write programs that can only do (+ 1 1) and we should be fine.
02:55	amalloy	Raynes: 0.05s for a fork is pretty slow, even if we assume all programs start up that quickly. `cat < /dev/null` takes just 0.002s
02:55	benedikt	If you time "lein version", how are you then timing the perforance of clojure itself? And doesnt the high timings for "lein repl" indicate that it is way too bloated?
02:56	Raynes	Well, this is how people start Clojure in most situations.
02:56	Raynes	That 'clojure' script you've got doesn't have anything to do with Clojure (Clojure doesn't ship with a command-line interface like it or lein).
02:57	Raynes	Whoever made whatever package you got that from put it in there. That's why everybody tells newbies to not bother with Clojure in their package managers and just get lein instead.
02:57	benedikt	I know. But i think it might be a indicator that "lein repl" needs to be looked at, it might be too bloated.
02:57	Raynes	But it is true that since lein does other things there is some overhead, but `lein version` doesn't have much.
02:57	benedikt	The "clojure" command, comes from the clojure package for ubuntu
02:57	Raynes	The reason lein repl is slow is because it starts up subprocesses.
02:58	Raynes	Yeah, those packages are generally useless.
02:59	Raynes	I wish Clojure packages would just install Leiningen instead and get it over with. :P
02:59	Raynes	It's the end result anyways.
03:00	benedikt	lein needs to be packaged for debian/ubuntu/fedora
03:00	Raynes	cemerick: You seriously cannot be up this early.
03:00	Raynes	It does indeed.
03:00	benedikt	It somehow outside of the linux ecosystem, which is a very very very bad thing for ti
03:00	benedikt	it*
03:00	Raynes	It's hard to package it, but there are some people working on it IIRC.
03:01	cemerick	Raynes: Just got home from Boston.
03:01	Raynes	I thought you lived in Boston?
03:01	Raynes	You do have a home, right?
03:02	cemerick	I live ~2 hours from Boston
03:03	Raynes	cemerick: I did this https://github.com/Raynes/laser
03:03	benedikt	But i'm rather new at this whole clojure thing so there are probably (good) reasons for all this weirdness
03:06	cemerick	Raynes: will look; stumbling towards bed
03:06	Raynes	lol
03:07	Raynes	Obviously too old for that stuff, cemerick.
03:07	cemerick	hah
03:07	cemerick	whatever man, I close parties ;-P
03:40	dabd	how do i clean the cache of a core.memoized function?
03:50	bbloom	dabd: (source memoized) suggests that you can't
03:58	ivan	dabd: perhaps something on (meta your-memoed-func)
03:59	ivan	source suggests it's :unk on the metadata
04:22	echo-area	So it seems that priority-map can be used as either a priority-queue or a linked-hash-map
04:24	echo-area	Is it then not necessary to implement such data structures as PersistentLinkedHashMap in Java?
04:28	mindbender1	Are there any examples out there or projects that demonstrate strong usage of PersistentQueues
04:31	echo-area	mindbender1: I recently implemented a task manager, managing tasks as persistent queues. It is not public though. I find a persistent linked hash map or similar is necessary to describe it functionally
04:34	mindbender1	echo-area: I really need to see something that was done with queues.. any other directions since yours is not public domain
05:27	fredyr	`Clojure is not a good language for using frameworks`
05:27	fredyr	what's the reasoning behind this?
05:28	fredyr	it's from the first comment on HN for Moving away from Noir
05:28	fredyr	http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4918720
05:32	p_l	maybe the author experienced soemthign similar to what CL programmers often feel :D
05:32	fredyr	hah
05:32	fredyr	from the way he wrote it seemed to me it was some kind of general knowledge in the clojure community
05:33	ejackson	fredyr: yes its that. The idea is to use small composable abstractions, rather than monolithic frameworks
05:33	ejackson	so something like Rails is not what Clojure aims for, rather its a bunch of small libraries that do one thing well, and that can be combined
05:34	ejackson	AFAIK, anyway.
05:34	fredyr	right, i see the difference
05:34	fredyr	thanks for the explanation
05:35	clgv	fredyr: the summarized point is "built clojure libraries not frameworks". I wish I could quote the place where I read that one.
05:36	borkdude	make libraries, not frameworks (love, not war)
05:36	ejackson	fredyr: exactly as clgz says, I recall RH saying the same thing.
05:36	clgv	fredyr: libraries can be composed in ways the single library authors did not anticipate nor they needed to anticipate ut
05:36	Raynes	Libraries are composable. Frameworks are ot.
05:36	Raynes	not*
05:36	fredyr	yeah
05:36	ejackson	the problem is the 'cold start' issue, for guys getting going, having a framework makes life easier.... for a while.
05:37	clgv	frameworks are only extendable limited by what the authors thought one needed to expand ;)
05:37	clgv	*extend
05:37	Raynes	https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clj-noir/AbAvQuikjGk/xTorXq83WT0J
05:37	borkdude	maybe a transition guide from noir to compojure + whatever else you need to do the same would be nice for people now left behind with Noir heritage
05:37	nightfly_	Noir feels like it's got a good job tough. I love lisps for the raw control and power, but noir really fits when you don't quite need it but want a slick site with a well understood upper bound in development that you know it fits in.
05:37	fredyr	you mean a web transition framework?
05:37	fredyr	:D
05:37	Raynes	Looks like the whole deprecation thing might not last long. Already have someone who apparently wants to take Noir on. Nothing official yet though. Kinda would rather not, but shrug. It's open source.
05:38	nightfly_	s/tough/though/
05:38	Raynes	As long as I don't have to bother with it, I guess.
06:20	Raynes	I heard ejackson lost the ability to say anything other than the word 'cheerio'.
06:20	ejackson	whato, whato !
06:20	echo-area	Is it common to use compile-files to mimic eval-when-compile?
06:21	echo-area	Or, is it idiomatic?
06:22	ejackson	Raynes: I'm not a substitute cemerick to pick fights with :p
06:24	clgv	echo-area: I only used it on the repl when I wanted to investigate the bytecode...
06:26	echo-area	clgv: I'm having an issue with our build system, which is not under my control. I'm loading ssh identities with clj-ssh, but somehow the build fails in the system. So I want to disable the evaluation of some top-level code.
06:26	echo-area	clgv: BTW, by investigating the bytecode, what do you mean?
06:27	clgv	echo-area: decompiler oder bytecode viewer
06:27	clgv	*or
06:27	clgv	echo-area: compile-files set to true will compile all evaluated forms to class files
06:27	echo-area	How do you do that?
06:28	clgv	echo-area: jd-gui and "dr. garbage bytecode visualizer"
06:28	echo-area	clgv: Yes, I see when leiningen compiles projects it invokes `compile', which sets it to true. And I need this trick to make compilation work for the build system I'm using.
06:29	echo-area	clgv: Okay, will look into those tools, thanks.
06:29	clgv	clgv: the second is an eclipse plugin
06:30	echo-area	Hah, okay
06:31	echo-area	I guess using compile-files for this purpose won't hurt though
06:33	clgv	echo-area: since clojure.core/compile does the same thing it should work. can't you use clojure.core/compile yourself?
06:34	echo-area	clgv: I'm afraid not, it is part of lein jar
06:34	clgv	echo-area: no. I explicitely talked of clojure.core/compile
06:35	clgv	thats part of the clojure.jar ^^
06:35	echo-area	I know, you mean I do clojure.core/compile manually instead of doing lein jar?
06:36	clgv	erm what? what exactly is the workflow you want to accomplish? which dependencies are (not) allowed?
06:38	echo-area	The system invokes a script provided by me, and I do `lein jar' in it. Originally, when compiling, some top-level form trying to load ssh identities fails to pass compilation.
06:39	clgv	echo-area: sounds like a programming error when you load those ssh-identities top-level
06:40	echo-area	What is the suggested way to fix it?
06:40	echo-area	The ssh identity files on the building host seems incorrect
06:42	echo-area	In fact I didn't do nothing, only calling JSch's declared methods
06:42	echo-area	Indirectly through clj-ssh of course
06:54	clgv	echo-area: why is there any ssh programmlogic executed on compilation?
06:54	clgv	echo-area: probably you have global variables which would be there error here
06:56	echo-area	clgv: Yes, I have a Var there, and I add identities into it at the top-level. My intention is to add identities when the class loads. Is there any better option than top-level forms?
06:58	clgv	echo-area: if you really need it global, define the var and create an init function that is used before any ssh-operation is done
06:58	echo-area	But that needs to be only done once. I.e. I need a static semantic.
06:59	clgv	though I really wonder why the code is executed on compile time....
06:59	echo-area	Similar to a static block in Java
06:59	echo-area	clgv: Because these are top-level forms?
07:00	clgv	yeah but that static block seems to be the problem. since the namespace gets loaded and thus the static block executed
07:00	clgv	mynamespace$init or such^^
07:00	echo-area	Oh I see.
07:01	clgv	echo-area: If I were you I would fix the initilization so that it happens once at runtime and not create a non-standard obscure build process ;)
07:02	echo-area	clgv: I see. I'll make such a fix, thanks. Anyway got to go, see you later.
08:01	tomoj	is it a user error if f returns a map in (r/mapcat f)?
08:04	joegallo	tomoj: i suppose that depends on what you want back from mapcat. if you want a lazy-seq of map entries then that would perfectly fine.
08:04	joegallo	if you want a map, well, then that won't work out very well for you...
08:07	tomoj	I mean clojure.core.reducers/mapcat
08:07	tomoj	so I want a reducer
08:08	joegallo	oh, my bad. i have no idea.
08:14	tgoossens	I've always found the word "business logic" a bit vague. How would you describe it?
08:17	borkdude	"A customer can have only one account", "A client can never buy anything if his credits are 0 or below", etc
08:21	borkdude	I'm going to attempt converting my noir site to compojure
08:22	p_l	tgoossens: business logic is the top-level stuff that you're actually trying to accomplish :)
08:22	borkdude	when running the server I get this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7582
08:23	vijaykiran	borkdude: do you have lein ring plugin installed in profiles or project.clj ?
08:24	borkdude	vijaykiran this is my project.clj (I still have to sort out if all of these libs are compatible..) https://www.refheap.com/paste/7583
08:25	borkdude	vijaykiran shouldn't I specify somewhere that it's supposed to run on jetty?
08:27	tgoossens	p_l: so you mean that. you want to separate your data from the actions you can do on them (something that OOP combines into one construct: a class) ?
08:27	Joreji	Hello everybody. I have a clojure library that depends on some native libraries, so I figured I'd make a library with the native .so files and deploy it to clojars. But the transfer fails, both over ssh & http. Does anyone know whether there is a there a file size limit for uploads to clojars (the jar is 28mb large)?
08:27	p_l	tgoossens: Classes are, frankly speaking, orthogonal to OOP ;P
08:27	vijaykiran	borkdude: hmm - I just pasted your project.clj, and it worked fine for me
08:28	vijaykiran	borkdude: AFAIK, lein ring server is going to jetty
08:28	p_l	tgoossens: but in general, business logic means "what the program is going to accomplish + and rules it has to follow", an abstract design
08:28	vijaykiran	borkdude: could be some missing/messed up maven downloads
08:29	tgoossens	p_l: can you expand on the orthogonal part ?
08:30	tgoossens	you probably mean that OOP is about working with actual objects rather than classes
08:31	p_l	tgoossens: OOP can be done with normal functions and still be OOP
08:31	p_l	though actually the original OOP concepts involved Actors, not classes
08:32	borkdude	vijaykiran this is the output of lein deps :tree, I see no jetty jar https://www.refheap.com/paste/7584
08:33	tgoossens	if that all is true, then i got taught OOP in a completely wrong way
08:33	vijaykiran	borkdude: I think the jetty dep comes from the plugin, not from the project deps
08:33	borkdude	vijaykiran ah right
08:34	vijaykiran	borkdude: may be a lein clean and lein ring server again might help ?
08:35	borkdude	vijaykiran yeah that helped
08:35	tgoossens	p_l: i was taught that OOP was all about classes, inheritance, mutating etc. Can you give me some references so I can investigate your statements?
08:38	tgoossens	borkdude: where do you host your website. Where i currently host my websites they don't support for clojure, java
08:38	borkdude	tgoossens I used Heroku for some experimentation and now have a VPS at directvps.nl
08:38	p_l	tgoossens: read about Alan Kay's Smalltalk. Kay was one of the coiners of the term "Object Oriented"
08:39	borkdude	tgoossens Heroku is really easy, but it takes some time to get up on first use (free account)
08:39	tgoossens	p_l: thanks
08:39	borkdude	tgoossens I mean deploying is easy
08:39	p_l	tgoossens: and yes, you were taught a certain, narrow-minded school of programming that calls itself OOP :P
08:40	tgoossens	p_l: so what i'm taught is a subset of what OOP is about then?
08:40	p_l	tgoossens: funny thing, Object Management Group so far managed to testify CLOS (Common Lisp Object System) as the one that actually fit all their requirements... or so I recall
08:40	p_l	tgoossens: or an extension
08:40	p_l	it intersects with it, definitely :)
08:40	tgoossens	:)
08:40	tgoossens	I never heard of the Object Management Group before
08:41	vijaykiran	OMG :)
08:41	p_l	for example, I prefer to use protocols/interfaces/types/whatever-it's-called-in-this-language instead of inheritance, especially if I'm forced into single-inheritance and thus can't compose objects (which is wtf-worthy)
08:42	vijaykiran	OMG - who brought us CORBA too :)
08:43	borkdude	Gradually upgrading to compojure: Caused by: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: defpartial in this context :-D
08:44	borkdude	I guess the best way to get rid of defpartial or to just use defn?
08:46	vijaykiran	borkdude: I'm guessing defpartial is from noir ?
08:46	tgoossens	p_l: but i still can't imagine me going to my professor and saying, "hey that thing you are teaching my isn't OOP actually". Isn't it possible that the meaning of OOP has just evolved to what i'm thought?
08:46	p_l	tgoossens: more like was compromised and taken over ;)
08:46	borkdude	vijaykiran yes, I think it's just defn under the hoods
08:47	vijaykiran	borkdude: oh, yeah https://github.com/noir-clojure/noir/blob/master/src/noir/core.clj#L103
08:47	tgoossens	p_l: if we continue on that. Then aren't my previous statements true?
08:47	vijaykiran	borkdude: looks like you can just copy the macro to your project :)
08:47	borkdude	lol
08:50	p_l	tgoossens: depends on whether you accept that state :)
08:54	borkdude	is it really recommended to use lib-noir, or just go for other ways of session storage after noir?
08:54	borkdude	I will first remove every reference to noir and see where I get
08:58	borkdude	hmm, I do I comment out a giant block of code in Eclipse CCW? I run into all kinds of intteresting questions today =)
09:00	josteink	hm
09:00	josteink	http://blog.raynes.me/blog/2012/12/13/moving-away-from-noir/
09:00	josteink	well I'll be damned
09:00	josteink	Raynes: so long and thanks for all the fish, I guess ;)
09:02	borkdude	josteink this is just a way to create more consultancy work in clojure world - I'm now trying to become an expert on porting noir to compojure and then hopefully get a paid job :P
09:02	josteink	heh
09:35	TimMc	cemerick: Thanks for the book! I can see I'm going to get some good stuff out of it.
09:36	TimMc	cemerick: ...but it just occurred to me: Wouldn't the person in the room who knows the least Clojure trivia get the most out of a free book? :-P
09:36	solussd	is it possible to add metadata to an object that isnt copied when new versions of that object are created (e.g. a map with metadata where an assoc operation yields a new map without the metadata)?
09:37	cemerick	TimMc: Perhaps, perhaps. That's why the first Q I asked was not Clojure-related!
09:37	cemerick	I suppose I should start building up a repertoire of appropriate trivial questions for when I'm giving away books :-)
09:45	ambrosebs	I've put a brief rationale in Typed Clojure's readme (under Rationale). Any comments? https://github.com/frenchy64/typed-clojure
09:50	ambrosebs	It's meant to bring ppl who've never heard of Typed Clojure & gradual typing up to speed.
09:50	ambrosebs	..without reading a dissertation :P
09:51	Joreji	Does typed clojure add type hints?
09:53	ambrosebs	No. There's currently no way to interface with the compiler.
09:53	ambrosebs	It can infer type hints, sure.
09:54	Joreji	Too bad :-(
09:55	ambrosebs	Yes, but I'll be pushing for something to allow that in the coming months. Some cool stuff going on with CLJS compiler.
09:56	ambrosebs	Probably a long time before we'll see the benefits in Clojure though.
09:56	Joreji	Ah, that's nice to hear!
09:56	ambrosebs	Perhaps wait for Clojure 2.0
09:56	ambrosebs	;)
09:56	Joreji	Will do :-)
09:56	borkdude	how do I redirect in compojure?
09:56	Joreji	For now, if I want typing, I'll go to scala ^^
09:57	ambrosebs	A valid choice :)
09:59	vijaykiran	borkdude: isn't its ring/utils redirect ?
09:59	ambrosebs	If you're curious about what TC could be, boot up Dr Racket and try some Typed Racket.
09:59	ambrosebs	incredible stuff.
10:00	borkdude	vijaykiran ah, tnx
10:10	mpenet	ambrosebs: some would argue that it helps in the design phase, starting from type definitions, signatures, data driven development I think?
10:11	mpenet	ambrosebs: maybe it's not the right term in the clojure context
10:13	ambrosebs	mpenet: sure. I guess I was after more objective truths. Clojure ppl have done fine without types so far.
10:13	ambrosebs	Certainly TC allows you to design with types.
10:16	ambrosebs	It'll be interesting to see if people actually do.
10:18	mpenet	I think clojure folks are more after the compile time checks and maybe later optimisations (at least for now), but it is already huge imho. I can't count the hours I wasted on stupid bugs that could have been caught by static typing.
10:20	mpenet	and the effort is minimal compared to writing tests (not that it replaces it)
10:22	ambrosebs	Ya. Clojure runtime errors suck.
10:22	ambrosebs	*type errors
10:26	cemerick	ohpauleez, lynaghk: what a tool; disregard the second Q in my email, I didn't look at the subject of the event :-P
10:28	ohpauleez	To all - anyone have questions for lynaghk (Kevin Lynagh), myself (Paul deGrandis) or cemerick (Chas "Clojure Godfather" Emerick) -- Mostly Lazy podcast
10:28	ohpauleez	anything except when vs if
10:28	cemerick	lol
10:28	ejackson	How bout <SPC><SPC> vs <TAB> :)
10:29	ohpauleez	haha :)
10:29	ambrosebs	bbloom: where does cljs-cps fit in with the compilation pipleline?
10:29	ambrosebs	when is the AST transformed?
10:29	ambrosebs	and where does it go?
10:30	ohpauleez	ambrosebs: I believe the idea is to introduce a new optimization phase after the initial AST is produced. I'm not sure if that's the case with bbloom's cps transformer or not
10:32	ambrosebs	I didn't think there was a way to make such phases.
10:32	ambrosebs	Could it integrate with normal compilation?
10:33	ohpauleez	you mean in the same pass?
10:34	ambrosebs	I mean, how much can compilation be customised currently?
10:35	ohpauleez	no idea - but we're hitting a few areas where optimizations could be applied. Making the compilation size even smaller, cps, etc
10:35	ohpauleez	and I expect more to come
10:36	ambrosebs	right. AFAICT these are just the optimisation phases, without being integrated into compiler?
10:36	ambrosebs	Which is basically what Typed Clojure is currently.
10:37	ohpauleez	ah, I understand what you're saying now
10:38	creese	I'm wondering about the Right Way to handle AJAX calls in clojure.
10:38	ohpauleez	I don't know the implementation details of each specific approach, I'm just reporting on the discussion I've witnessed so far.
10:38	ohpauleez	crease: on the server or within CLJS?
10:38	creese	on the server
10:40	ambrosebs	I'm waiting to find out how all these optimisations phases work together.
10:40	mpenet	creese: you need to be more specific
10:40	ohpauleez	crease: Expose a RESTful interface to the resources you need to continually update in the AJAX call. If you have CLJS on client-side, use EDN as data representation and perform the AJAX call as a Remote
10:44	borkdude	to work with a ring session in compojure, I have to do this? (GET "/mypage" {session :session} (…))
10:47	cemerick	borkdude: as long as you have the session middleware in place, yes
10:47	borkdude	cemerick yeah have that. I saw somewhere the same thing, but then with [ {session :session} ], so brackets around it… syntax change over time?
10:49	creese	ohpauleez: why EDN and not JSON?
10:49	cemerick	borkdude: Hrm, I don't think that would work
10:50	cemerick	borkdude: yeah, I don't think that'd be valid, https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/wiki/Destructuring-Syntax
10:51	ohpauleez	creese: You can capture more kinds of things (richer expression), but it's also extensible into your problem domain, so it's easy to capture domain-specific data too
10:52	ohpauleez	no need to double parse out special meaning from a JSON structure
10:52	ohpauleez	and allows you to program Clojure the whole way through
10:52	bordatoue	in clojure is do we have any thing to convert a number to binary strings similar to bin()in python
10:53	cemerick	borkdude: you mean, base 2?
10:53	bordatoue	yeah
10:53	cemerick	,(Long/toString 5 2)
10:53	clojurebot	"101"
10:54	bordatoue	cemerick: cool, thanks
10:54	creese	ohpauleez: can you elaborate on the first half of your answer "Expose a RESTful interface..." or point me to tutorial?
10:54	cemerick	oh, sorry, bordatoue, not bork :-)
10:55	cemerick	ohpauleez: better just call it HTTP lest the RESTifarians schedule a sit-in at your place. :-P
10:55	bordatoue	cemerick: you are fogiven :-)
10:55	ohpauleez	cemerick: :)
10:56	creese	ohpauleez: are we talking about a route?
10:56	ohpauleez	creese: You just need to expose a URL on your server side, that will take args for a given resource, and return you the snapshot of data you need
10:57	ohpauleez	it should play nicely with the HTTP 1.1 methods: POST GET PUT DELETE
10:57	bordatoue	can anyone suggest what would be the best way to implement a client that connects to multiple tcp sockets with different port numbers
10:57	bordatoue	ip address remains the same
10:57	ohpauleez	if you go the other way (exposing remote calls over http to CLJS), then you can define your resource and API in a Clojure file, and just expose the whole API to CLJS
11:11	mindbender1	is it possible to change the working dir where a repl started
11:13	S11001001	mindbender1: depends on what you mean by "working dir"
11:13	S11001001	if you mean the OS one, JVM doesn't give you this option
11:14	S11001001	mindbender1: there is a system prop, I forget what, with a copy of the cwd in it; setting that prop does nothing but affect other users of that prop
11:14	mindbender1	What I need is to be able to change what (System/getProperty("user.dir") returns
11:15	S11001001	mindbender1: you can do that, but that's all you'll change.
11:16	mindbender1	Won't it affect where load will start searching
11:16	S11001001	no.
11:16	mindbender1	Is the only option restarting the repl in the proper dir
11:16	S11001001	if you want to affect that, give up on cwd and look at classloaders
11:17	mindbender1	how do we work with classloaders from clojure
11:18	S11001001	mindbender1: with clojure's java interop features
11:18	S11001001	mindbender1: I've written classloaders in clojure; it's as approachable as the classloader api allows
11:18	cemerick	mindbender1: what are you actually trying to do?
11:18	ChongLi	change the cwd of the repl
11:19	S11001001	ChongLi: I think that was the solution looking for the problem
11:19	ChongLi	in ghci you can do this with :cd
11:19	mindbender1	just to have more control of where .repl is located or something
11:20	mindbender1	it integrates nicely with emacs ecb
11:20	mindbender1	ChongLi: are you saying cwd will work
11:21	mindbender1	hw do I execute cwd from the repl for instance
11:21	S11001001	ghci is a haskell interpreter entirely separate from clojure & jvm, mindbender1
11:21	mindbender1	oh ok
11:21	mindbender1	I thouhgt therre was hope
11:22	S11001001	are you using lein, mindbender1?
11:22	mindbender1	yes of course, with nrepl mixed in
11:23	S11001001	are you using C-c C-l to load files?
11:23	mindbender1	there has to be a way to do this
11:24	mindbender1	didn't try that.. just (load ...)
11:24	S11001001	in a clj file, you can press C-c C-l and it will load/reload it, no typing load commands at all
11:24	mindbender1	S11001001: ok will try that soon enough
11:25	gfredericks	So I am doing config via a "config.clj" file on the classpath, with environments managed by just putting a different config file in /resources at deploy-time
11:25	gfredericks	now I'm trying to setup automated testing, where I'll want a special test config
11:25	cemerick	mindbender1: .repl?
11:25	gfredericks	this means I want a test-resources directory?
11:25	gfredericks	lein doesn't seem to pick that up by default. Do I need a test profile?
11:26	mindbender1	cemerick: yes I believe that controls the working dir
11:26	mindbender1	or the one it starts in initially
11:27	mindbender1	I think that used to be the file where repl save its work
11:28	mindbender1	or am I getting it wrong
11:29	cemerick	mindbender1: I've never heard of .repl; it's a file?
11:31	mindbender1	I remember seeing it sometime and thought that repl used it for history
11:31	cemerick	I'm not aware of it. `lein repl` doesn't seem to create it, either
11:31	mindbender1	though it doesn't show up now.. I wa assuming
11:32	mindbender1	cemerick: ok think I mistook it
11:33	mindbender1	cemerick: any thought on the cwd thing
11:35	gfredericks	does the leiningen :resources-paths vector not specify things in the order they will be searched?
11:35	gfredericks	I'm trying to make my test-resources/config.clj shadow my resources/config.clj
11:35	gfredericks	and it doesn't seem to be
11:36	gfredericks	oh wait
11:36	gfredericks	:resource-paths instead
11:36	cemerick	ha-ha dynamic typing ;-P
11:38	gfredericks	oh nice the test task picks up the test profile automatically
12:21	solussd	anyone using emacs-live w/ clojure and either clojure-jack-in or nrepl-jack-in experience the repl printing dozens of newlines before returning the result of a function call?
12:31	firesofmay	Hi, If I have a huge map with lot of nesting, and I only want to understand the key structure of it. And I dont want to go through the values, what is the best way to do it?
12:32	tgoossens	anyone here experience with heroku? I'm playing around with it and I'm currently unable to push (permission denied). I'm reading through the documentation. But if anyone knows already what might be wrong that would be helpful
12:32	technomancy	tgoossens: hey
12:32	tgoossens	technomancy: hi!
12:32	technomancy	can I pm you about it?
12:32	tgoossens	sure thing!
12:36	TimMc	firesofmay: So you want to throw away some, but not all of the values in a nested map?
12:36	firesofmay	TimMc, I dont want the values. I just want to understand what are the keys and its structure.
12:37	TimMc	Except some of the values in the top-level map are also maps you want to inspect, right?
12:37	firesofmay	TimMc, I can go through it manually, But I was wondering if there is a better way.
12:37	firesofmay	TimMc, Yeah Its a nested map.
12:37	technomancy	firesofmay: tree-seq could get you all the keys, but you'd lose the shape of the map
12:37	firesofmay	technomancy, I see.
12:38	firesofmay	technomancy, no way to retain the structure?
12:38	TimMc	firesofmay: If it's just a map of maps... (into {} (for [[k v] my-map] [k (keys v)]))
12:38	technomancy	firesofmay: well, not with tree-seq; sure there are ways to do it
12:38	firesofmay	TimMc, okay.
12:38	firesofmay	technomancy, okay.
12:39	TimMc	&(into {} (for [[k v] {:a {} :b {:c 1 :d 2}}] [k (keys v)]))
12:39	lazybot	⇒ {:a nil, :b (:c :d)}
12:42	firesofmay	TimMc, will this work for clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap?
12:42	TimMc	Sure, why not?
12:42	firesofmay	TimMc, Getting "Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer" Error.
12:42	TimMc	SOunds like an argument order error.
12:43	TimMc	Are you calling nth anywhere?
12:43	firesofmay	TimMc, No, I just have a full map, and I replaced it with my-map in the function you gave.
12:43	TimMc	&(keys 4)
12:43	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long
12:44	firesofmay	TimMc, (into {} (for [[k v] req-sites] [k (keys v)]))
12:44	TimMc	firesofmay: My code only works if it's a map of maps.
12:44	firesofmay	TimMc, What if it has a vector too?
12:44	TimMc	It sounds like at least one of your vals is a number.
12:44	ohpauleez	cemerick: I'm amped
12:44	cemerick	\m/
12:44	cemerick	ohpauleez: oh, what for? :-P
12:45	firesofmay	TimMc, some keys have a number as a val.
12:45	TimMc	firesofmay: Add a :when clause: ##(into {} (for [[k v] {:a {} :some-number 5 :b {:c 1 :d 2}} :when (map? v)] [k (keys v)]))
12:45	lazybot	⇒ {:a nil, :b (:c :d)}
12:45	ohpauleez	cemerick: Mostly Lazy!
12:46	cemerick	"Dedicated to discussing security issues affecting those building applications with Clojure and its variants." https://groups.google.com/group/clojure-sec
12:47	sgeo	I _think_ I'd rather have light-weight co-operative threads than heavy-weight pre-emptive threads, although light-weight pre-emptive threads would be best
12:47	sgeo	I'm not sure though
12:48	TimMc	cemerick: Nice, I hope that draws some folks.
12:48	technomancy	cemerick: can I join and just bitch endlessly about how awful Bouncy Castle is?
12:48	sgeo	Bouncy Castle?
12:48	technomancy	sgeo: a suite of crypto implementations for the JVM
12:49	cemerick	technomancy: only if you bone up and produce a clean-room impl in Clojure.
12:49	technomancy	cemerick: pass
12:49	cemerick	so close
12:50	firesofmay	TimMc, technomancy thanks.
12:50	cemerick	TimMc: Me too. It'd be nice if I knew something about security stuff.
13:17	mindbender1	I have not done cljs for a while. Is cljsbuild still preferred for cljs. The repo seem kinda quiet
13:18	dnolen	mindbender1: it is still the preferred way. quiet is good :)
13:18	duck1123	nothing has been broken that needs fixed
13:20	mindbender1	ok
13:27	seangrove	Is there any negative to wrapping js api's like this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7592
13:28	seangrove	As far as I can tell, this should work fine with the minifier without any any externs, it won't get munged, and allows me to use the ns like a normal cljs ns from the rest of my program
13:31	dnolen	seangrove: so "extension" just holds plain functions - not methods?
13:32	seangrove	Well, singleton-style methods, I believe
13:32	seangrove	You'd never instantiate "extension"
13:33	dnolen	seangrove: it would be a problem if the implementations of those methods use "this"
13:33	dnolen	seangrove: if they don't than that's ok. using rest args + apply is a perf hit but from the looks of this API I don't think that's much of a concern.
13:34	seangrove	Well, this is used in fairly tight loops - best to map the args directly?
13:34	dnolen	seangrove: yes
13:34	seangrove	Great, thank you
13:37	cemerick	last chance for questions/topics for ohpauleez, lynaghk, and myself on Mostly Lazy
13:38	borkdude	cemerick are you on air right now?
13:38	cemerick	yup
13:40	borkdude	cemerick I mean, so we can listen? or just recording and publishing afterwards? either way, just saying I like your podcast very much and enjoy it while running
13:40	cemerick	yeah, no live broadcasting thing
13:40	skybound	I would appreciate any hints on transforming a flat list into a tree (e.g. input like '("a" :push "b" :pop "c") ); got a somewhat working solution - but it ain't pretty :-(
13:40	cemerick	we can barely get skype to work :-P
13:41	borkdude	on what topics do you expect questions right now?
13:41	cemerick	whatever. We're just riffing for an hour.
13:53	ChongLi	mostly lazy?
13:53	ChongLi	oh I see
13:53	ChongLi	nice
13:53	cemerick	ChongLi: mostlylazy.com
13:55	ticking_	isn't it super frusttrating that there is no clojurish image library?
13:56	ticking_	every tie I set out to find one I end up holding myself back to not write one
13:56	technomancy	maybe that's the problem
13:56	technomancy	give into your urge =)
13:56	solussd	Is it possible to add metadata to just an instance of an object that isn't copied when operations are performed on the object? E.g. If I have a record and I perform an assoc on it, the new record has the same metadata. Is it possible to make that no so? :)
13:56	jkkramer	shave that yak
13:58	ticking_	yeah ^^but the time the time
13:58	jkkramer	the only image stuff I've needed is read, write, and resize, which I wrote some simple clojure wrappers to handle
14:00	ticking_	jkkramer: hm, not on your github^^
14:00	jkkramer	ticking_: https://gist.github.com/3959731
14:00	jkkramer	need to bundle it into a library sometime...
14:01	jkkramer	was waiting until I needed it in more than one project
14:01	seangrove	cemerick: State of cljs, the ASt, bbloom's cps-transform project, lots of interesting stuff to riff about ;)
14:01	ticking_	jkkramer: hrhr yeah I thought of using scalr too ^^
14:02	ticking_	jkkramer: but the stuff I do to the image still requires a bit more functionality, like contrast, grayscaling, binarization
14:03	jkkramer	ticking_: I believe Scalr supports custom image operations, but I didn't dig into it much
14:04	ticking_	jkkramer: yeah but thats kinda the point, the stuff is there (like imagej) but it's not pretty (like imagej which loads 90% of AWT UI elements)
14:06	jkkramer	I punted and shelled out to graphics magick for a scala project
14:07	ticking_	hrhr
14:07	dnolen	tbaldridge: btw, I liked the bytecode core.logic video - can you explain a little more what you're trying to do - the advantage w/ the approach you're taking?
14:08	tbaldridge	on a call, give me a few min
14:27	tbaldridge	@dnolen: the goal with my project is to explore how to rewrite the clojure-py bytecode assembler using core.logic.
14:28	dnolen	tbaldridge: yes I understand that - but what's the benefit? or you're just having fun w/ core.logic? :)
14:29	tbaldridge	The problem with many of the existing designs is that they are basically a hairball of imperative code. For instance, source mappings are basically consist of pairs of two bytes, (delta in bytecode, delta in sourcecode). Writing this sort of thing ends up with code like this:
14:29	tbaldridge	http://code.google.com/p/byteplay/source/browse/trunk/byteplay.py?r=19
14:30	tbaldridge	Thus far I've found it much easier to express as sets of constraints, then actual actually walking step by step through every bytecode.
14:33	dnolen	tbaldridge: I see, I guess I'd be concerned about performance for this kind of task - but perhaps you haven't found it to be an issue? (related I've been starting to ponder how tom make defne & conde's, etc more efficient if we have ground values)
14:34	tbaldridge	One more example is jump calculation. In an if branch, we can't write the number of bytes to jump, until we emit each branch of the if. so the result starts looking like this: https://gist.github.com/4287938
14:35	tbaldridge	Yeah, I have no clue about performance yet, so far it's pretty fast, but we'll see. That being said, these functions are normally rather small, 40-200 bytecodes, so we'll see how the performance shakes out.
14:36	tbaldridge	What also triggered this for me was when Joe Armstrong mentioned that he's been involved in working on some super-secret Erlang on crack language. Apparently it uses gecode internally. Ever since hearing that I've been thinking how I could use core.logic more in clojure-py
14:37	dnolen	tbaldridge: gotcha, well cool stuff - looking forward to some in depth write-ups.
14:37	dnolen	tbaldridge: yes he mentioned he was doing things w/ GeCode at TechMesh, I should have picked his brain some more about that.
14:38	dnolen	tbaldridge: related - support for optional binding into more high performance constraints solvers (GeCode, JaCoP) is definitely worth pursuing.
14:41	tbaldridge	agreed.
14:42	ticking_	jkkramer: btw I would slap apache sanselan on there for importing and exporting it can read most image formats
14:42	tbaldridge	I found Joe's talk on the subject: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Building-Highly-Available-Systems-in-Erlang he's working on making a Erlang VM run specialized hardware. So GeCode is probably being used for FPGA layout or something of that nature.
14:43	ticking_	jkkramer: you should seriously do that and then release it, I'll certainly contribute as I continue to use it and maybee even add more advanced functionality ^^
14:43	dnolen	tbaldridge: thx for the link
14:45	jkkramer	ticking_: cool, good to know. I'm bundling up the gist as a lib at the moment. will make note to integrate sanselan at some point
14:59	jkkramer	ticking_: https://github.com/jkk/purty
15:00	ticking_	jkkramer: awesome ^^, I'll send a pull request for sanselan :D
15:01	jkkramer	ticking_: excellent
15:10	ravster	hello everyone
15:14	TimMc	Quick, off the top of your head -- is 36r5e2 > 100?
15:15	TimMc	(This is a question about Clojure numeric literal syntax.)
15:17	ticking_	jkkramer: I wonder if we could use some stuff from rinzelight
15:17	ticking_	jkkramer: it doesn't have an api as nice as purty but it has some functionality
15:17	amalloy	TimMc: seems like yes?
15:17	ravster	is anyone else having nrepl.el issues where it doesn't evaluate code into the correct namespace?
15:18	amalloy	assuming that it's actually a valid number literal; i don't know what is
15:18	technomancy	ravster: yeah, the heuristic it uses is very broken =(
15:19	TimMc	amalloy: It's not obvious to me what happend when you combine e-notation with higher radices.
15:20	dnolen	ravster: yep
15:20	TimMc	although yes, radix notation precludes e-notation.
15:20	technomancy	ravster: I tried to talk him out of it and get it to use the same heuristic as slime but it currently doesn't do that
15:21	technomancy	maybe opening an issue will help get it fixed =)
15:23	jkkramer	ticking_: could be. rinzelight looks pretty elaborate; more than I would ever need. might be nice to have effects like blur, sharpen. and being able to view an image
15:24	ticking	jkkramer: well, viewing images brings us back to including the entire gui framework ;D
15:24	ticking	but yeah
15:25	jkkramer	was thinking of viewing as a dev-only, runtime thing
15:26	ticking	jkkramer: hrhr sure ^^
15:30	zerokarmaleft	TimMc: man, you can really confuse the reader with literals like that
15:42	ravster	Could someone point me to a resource that explains how to organize a clojure project in different files?
15:49	TimMc	ravster: I just start coding, and pull stuff out into additional namespaces as modularity becomes clear.
15:58	stuartsierra	ravster: http://stuartsierra.com/2011/08/08/clojure-namespaces
15:59	craigbro	heyo
15:59	craigbro	got a quick lein2 question
15:59	craigbro	i hate uer profiles
15:59	craigbro	user...
15:59	craigbro	and want those plugins defined in my project
15:59	craigbro	specifically immutant
16:00	craigbro	I added the immutant plugin to my project.clj, but it's not available as a lein2 command
16:00	craigbro	what stupid mistake did I make?
16:03	gfredericks	Is there any way to do a DROP DATABASE with clojure.java.jdbc?
16:03	gfredericks	do-commands sets up a transaction and postgres won't let you drop DB from a transaction
16:03	tcrawley	craigbro: how did you add it to your project.clj?
16:06	craigbro	tcrawley: in the :plugins var
16:06	craigbro	:plugins [[lein-cljsbuild "0.2.9"
16:06	craigbro	lein-immutant "0.14.1"]]
16:06	craigbro	:hooks [leiningen.cljsbuild]
16:06	gfredericks	ah ha
16:07	craigbro	in general, I despise the lein2 user profile for plugins
16:07	craigbro	i want everything in my project
16:07	gfredericks	cljsbuild and immutatnt are two different plugins
16:07	craigbro	I understand that
16:07	gfredericks	so they need to be in two different vectors
16:07	craigbro	oh, that I didn't 8)
16:07	craigbro	thanks for headcheck
16:07	gfredericks	[[lcljs ""] [len-imm ""]]
16:07	gfredericks	that sorta thing
16:07	tcrawley	gfredericks: good catch
16:07	jsabeaudry	Any idea how I can configure the jetty connector when using noir? (I'd like to change the responseBufferSize )
16:08	craigbro	gfredericks: makes total sense when I have my brain on
16:09	craigbro	all good, thanks. I knew lein2 would not force me to put that stuff in user profiles
16:09	craigbro	jsabeaudry: you can pass in a configurator func
16:10	borkdude	finished porting my noir app to compojure now… no use of lib-noir
16:10	clojurebot	Why are you asking him
16:10	Raynes	No no lib noir?
16:10	jsabeaudry	craigbro, hmmm I guess I'll look at the code
16:10	Raynes	borkdude: Something wrong
16:10	Raynes	?
16:10	borkdude	Raynes I didn't know why I needed it =)
16:11	Raynes	borkdude: Oh, I assumed coming from Noir you already used some of its libraries.
16:11	Raynes	lib-noir has the session, cookie, response, etc stuff.
16:11	borkdude	Raynes I hesitated to use the session stuff from lib-noir, but I went with ring session directly now
16:12	craigbro	jsabeaudry: http://practice-blog.herokuapp.com/posts/ring-with-ssl-only
16:12	Raynes	The session stuff in lib-noir is exactly the same as in noir itself.
16:12	craigbro	jsabeaudry: that is an example of a configurator that I use to set up ssl
16:12	Raynes	But nothing wrong with using ring session directly.
16:12	Raynes	In fact, cemerick would probably plant a nice sloppy kiss on you for it.
16:12	cemerick	heh
16:13	jsabeaudry	craigbro, Great, that should be simple enough wiht your example! thanks!
16:13	ivan	stuartsierra: "At the time, Prismatic had not yet released Graph as open-source." still isn't released, no?
16:13	stuartsierra	ivan: don't know
16:13	ivan	ah, thanks
16:13	ivan	not on their github, anyway
16:13	cemerick	There needs to be a helper fn to make updating the session easier, but it's definitely my preferred route.
16:14	cemerick	update-session! or whatever is ick and hard to test and think about
16:14	Raynes	I think that's ridiculous, but you already know that.
16:14	borkdude	cemerick Raynes I don't get why ring session stuff is considered more "functional", the session store is still a mutable thing right
16:15	cemerick	borkdude: past the boundary of the session middleware, ring sessions are purely functional
16:15	Raynes	Yes. But cemerick has a box of excuses for that one too. ;)
16:16	cemerick	The point is to try and push the frontier of unrestricted mutability outward as far as possible
16:16	Raynes	I'm surprised you don't use Haskell.
16:17	sgeo	I wish that there was some language+environment combination that I really liked
16:17	cemerick	page 81 in the book, FWIW: http://twitpic.com/blz6uk
16:18	sgeo	I like Smalltalk and Factor environments (well, not Factor's lack of ecosystem), a bit iffy on the languages. I love Haskell as a language except for icky macros, but it's not so nice for modifying a running program, and debugging can be tricky
16:18	borkdude	cemerick it is considered functional because the session map is always an updated version of the previous session map, or smth?
16:18	cemerick	Raynes: In another life, perhaps.
16:18	cemerick	Gradual typing is more my speed.
16:19	cemerick	Plus, no tools AFAICT. If I'm paying the static-typing tax all the time, I want killer tools.
16:19	cemerick	borkdude: because handler functions are referentially transparent. Their results depend solely on their arguments, and they produce no side effects.
16:20	cemerick	swap!'ing an atom is a side effect, and something you need to compensate for/mock/whatever when composing a fn performing such an action with another in a new way, or testing, etc
16:20	Raynes	Oh God, shut up.
16:20	Raynes	:P
16:20	Raynes	Go write a book or something.
16:21	cemerick	Zipped. :-\|
16:21	Raynes	Oh wait.
16:21	Raynes	You did write a book.
16:21	Raynes	dsantiago: I require your assistance in telling me whether or not I'm an idiot.
16:21	Raynes	Whenever you get a chance.
16:22	dsantiago	Raynes, I am responding to your issue right now.
16:22	TimMc	cemerick: Whoa, what's the bird?
16:22	Raynes	Good timing mate.
16:22	cemerick	TimMc: bird?
16:22	TimMc	Um... 91 days ago. OK.
16:22	Raynes	cemerick: I'm just kidding, love. We just like to do things differently and my way is better than yours. No biggies. Happens all the time with me.
16:22	TimMc	cemerick: http://twitpic.com/aui76e
16:23	ticking	TimMc: is that a dead falcon?
16:23	cemerick	oh, that. A sharp-shinned hawk that committed suicide against my living-room window this summer.
16:23	TimMc	ah
16:23	cemerick	Very sad. :-(
16:23	ticking	how did it taste?
16:23	Raynes	Hahahaha
16:23	Raynes	ticking: Sounds like you're from the south.
16:23	ticking	you can't tell me that you wasted a perfectly good hawk
16:24	TimMc	I can't imagine raptors taste that great, being predators and all.
16:24	ticking	Raynes: germany to be exact but my grandparents are from louisiana ;D
16:24	Raynes	Had to get that from somewhere.
16:24	tmciver	It's funny to see a pic of cemerick's laughing face next to a dead bird.
16:25	TimMc	"MUAH HAHAHA
16:25	TimMc	" <- sorry!
16:25	ticking	indeed
16:25	Raynes	cemerick: Is that picture meant to look like a trollface?
16:25	tmciver	TimMc: #clojure needs paredit!
16:25	ticking	tmciver: agreed
16:26	gfredericks	I tried to turn it on and it showed me a smiley and said it was an unmatched bracket or quote
16:26	borkdude	the only overhead I have now with ring sessions is: destructuring it in the compojure route and exposing it in the response map with the updated values, compared to (session/put! …) and (session/get …) right?
16:26	Raynes	cemerick: http://dc399.4shared.com/img/8w1Rixbl/s3/Asian-Troll-Face.jpg I you invert this picture...
16:27	cemerick	borkdude: You need to make sure you carry the session from the request (if it exists) into your response if you're going to update it.
16:27	dsantiago	There you go, Raynes.
16:27	ticking	cemerick: friend of mine picked one out of the wall in his office poor thing had gotten in there through the roof somehow, but he managed to nurse him back to health
16:28	borkdude	cemerick that carrying is done by (GET "/foo" {session :session}) right?
16:28	cemerick	e.g. (assoc-in ring-response [:session :your-key] "foo") won't work out well if the request session had :your-other-key in it
16:28	cemerick	no, that's just accessing the session
16:28	borkdude	cemerick I use wrap-session
16:28	Raynes	dsantiago: Got it. Yeah, I was just experimenting. It didn't occur to me until the end that "Oh wait, some people might actually want it to be unescaped."
16:29	TimMc	ticking: Touchy business, that -- even authorized wildlife rehabilitators have to get special certification to possess raptors.
16:29	ivan	is anyone here capable of vetting http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1076 ? would be nice if 1.5 could build on Windows
16:29	cemerick	borkdude: yeah, that's fine. My only point is that, if you're updating the session, you need to carry forward the session from the request
16:29	cemerick	e.g. (assoc ring-response :session (assoc (:session ring-request) :your-key "foo"))
16:29	ticking	TimMc: yeah luckily all he needed was some water and rest took him just a few hours to take of again
16:30	TimMc	Ah, OK.
16:30	cemerick	ticking: that's a bit nuts. I'd worry about getting my eyes ripped out.
16:30	cemerick	i.e. if I had to handle it
16:31	borkdude	cemerick yes, that's what I did, thanks
16:31	ticking	cemerick: wan't a hawk the largest city born predator we have is that dude
16:31	ticking	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Kestrel
16:31	cemerick	borkdude: ok, you're good then
16:32	cemerick	I used Ring sessions wrong for a solid year before being set right by weavejester
16:32	borkdude	cemerick so it didn't work for a year?
16:32	ticking	TimMc: and yeah I know I fished a raven chick out of my universities pond and nursed him over 2 days until giving him to the local wildlive rescue
16:32	cemerick	borkdude: I never noticed any issues because I was often only storing e.g. one key
16:32	ticking	TimMc: they didn't have open during the weekend and the vet said he gave him a lower than 50% chance and euthanized him but I could try ^^
16:33	cemerick	the middleware doesn't touch the stored session if the response map's :session entry is missing, or just {}
16:33	borkdude	cemerick it only kills the session when the :session value is nil right?
16:34	borkdude	cemerick but using an empty session map would cause all session values to be wiped also I guess
16:34	cemerick	right, right
16:35	cemerick	see, I still get it wrong :-P
16:35	cemerick	A couple of helper fns in ring.util.response are needed.
16:36	ticking	TimMc: I give the healing credit to startrek ;D that bird loved enterpreise http://cl.ly/image/3h470k1c2V3A http://cl.ly/image/3g0A2j0l1w1l
16:36	borkdude	cemerick whadda you mean?
16:37	technomancy	Kestrel is another name for the K combinator IIRC
16:37	technomancy	roughly analogous to clojure.core/constantly
16:37	hiredman	technomancy: identity
16:37	Raynes	dsantiago: Sounds like a great solution. Most people probably want unescaped
16:38	dsantiago	Raynes: Yes, I think so.
16:38	technomancy	hiredman: eh... depends how you map combinators to clojure fns
16:38	technomancy	or do you mean Kestrel is I rather than K?
16:39	hiredman	technomancy: oh, no I am mistaken
16:39	borkdude	One thing I'm still struggling with is, should I store a "consumer" from clj-oauth object in session, because I need on two pages, or is that considered bad practice?
16:40	borkdude	a "consumer" object from clj-oauth (wrong order), https://github.com/mattrepl/clj-oauth/blob/master/src/oauth/client.clj
16:41	TimMc	ticking: hah!
16:59	Raynes	Well, this is horrific: http://danielchoi.com/software/vmail.html
17:00	technomancy	Raynes: ouch; it complects reading, sending, and fetching, and recommends using rvm.
17:01	Raynes	technomancy: And it is a Vim plugin.
17:01	technomancy	and passwords in plaintext
17:01	Raynes	Kill it with fire.
17:01	Raynes	technomancy: Also, Ruby + Vim + OS X = BROKE
17:01	Raynes	It isn't much better on Linux.
17:02	TimMc	technomancy: But it supports contacts autocomplection!
17:02	TimMc	oh wait, autocompletion.
17:02	Raynes	I spent way more time that I'm willing to admit on trying to fix broken Ruby vim support.
17:02	Raynes	I gave up recently and just did the damned thing in Python.
17:02	bbloom	rvm is an atrocity.
17:02	Raynes	bbloom: rbenv users unite!
17:04	bbloom	as long as you don't load rbenv into your shell, and do the "graybeard" setup instructions, you're cool with me
17:04	bbloom	the idea that you need a shell function to configure your environment is insane
17:04	TimMc	technomancy: The first thing that should horrify you is that it's a mail reader in vim.
17:04	bbloom	talk about non-composable
17:05	technomancy	TimMc: true; all vim users should already be using mutt
17:05	TimMc	I mean, if you want vmail, just use emacs.
17:06	Raynes	TimMc: I don't even want it in Emacs, bro.
17:06	bbloom	yeah, i don't really understand the draw of an email client in your editor
17:06	bbloom	an editor in your email client maybe
17:06	bbloom	but the other way around?
17:06	Raynes	I like postbox.
17:06	bbloom	at least with emacs it makes sense because you have an editor in your email client in your elisp os :-)
17:06	Raynes	It gives me mail, I press buttan to send mail. Easy. Don't need elisp.
17:07	technomancy	bbloom: well mutt lets you read in mutt and compose in vim; that makes way more sense
17:08	technomancy	<textarea> is disgraceful for anything longer than a tweet
17:09	bbloom	technomancy: i don't really like composing prose in vim
17:09	bbloom	i LOVE THE SHIT out of vim
17:09	bbloom	and i tried all sorts of word wrap and reformat and all the standard shit
17:09	bbloom	but i hate writing prose
17:10	bbloom	my brain is just wired to working with lines
17:10	bbloom	(when i'm in vim)
17:10	technomancy	at least for HTML newlines don't affect the output
17:10	technomancy	(not that I am condoning use of HTML email)
17:10	technomancy	just that I find most non-mail prose is HTML our ends up as HTML these days
17:11	bbloom	i can't recall the last time i wrote HTML directly :-P
17:11	bbloom	html is object code.
17:11	technomancy	yeah but markdown is the same way
17:11	bbloom	if i ever write prose with the goal of rendering HTML, i write markdown
17:11	technomancy	put all the newlines in you want; it won't affect the output
17:11	bbloom	fair enough, it's just that i find it awkward to write paragraphs
17:12	bbloom	readmes and stuff are usually fine
17:12	bbloom	and i write them in vim out of laziness to go else where and copy paste
17:12	bbloom	but if i need to write a bunch of "realish" paragraphs, i'll open up text edit or something
17:12	technomancy	sure, and I doubt your commitment to sparklemotion^Wvim
17:12	technomancy	=)
17:14	bbloom	eh, maybe i just don't do it often enough to hvae mastered the word wrap nonsense
17:15	n_b	bbloom: Have you tried the markdown.vim plugin
17:16	n_b	it's kind of funky with wrapping and occasionally I have to do grab a paragraph and do a gq, but on the whole it's sufficient for writing
17:16	n_b	much better than Word, at least
17:18	bbloom	n_b: yeah i use that plugin
17:18	ivan	value vs. place problem: the city thinks the tree in our front yard belongs to them and should be trimmed, because some other tree was in the same place 10 years ago
17:27	TimMc	ivan: Send them this article, and explain that the tree is the wrong Color: http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
17:28	mpenet	I found a small difference between jvm/cljs re-* function handling: in cljs: (re-find #"foo" nil) -> nil - on the jvm NPE. There's probably a bug to be reported on one side or another?
17:29	mpenet	I guess cljs is wrong to allow that, it doesn't make much sense
17:29	mpenet	or is it considered platform specific behavior and remains like that
17:30	mpenet	dnolen: ping
17:30	dnolen	mpenet: behavior of regexes are platform specific
17:31	mpenet	alright
17:31	dnolen	mpenet: though that doesn't mean there's isn't a bug here.
17:31	mpenet	ah
17:33	dnolen	mpenet: or not, this may just be undefined behavior for CLJS & CLJ
17:33	stuartsierra	mpenet: The JVM is stricter about nils than JS. I think it's platform-specific behavior.
17:33	mpenet	yeah it's a bit tricky
17:34	p_l	mpenet: JVM code probably does something different than JS one
17:34	mpenet	it's something that could be handled in the future by typed clojure hopefully
17:34	dnolen	mpenet: yes, re-find shouldn't take nil
17:35	mpenet	so should I create a ticket (and maybe send a patch) or do we just leave it like that
17:36	djwonk	`lein new app an_app` followed by `lein repl`raises an exception. I'm thinking there may be an underscore / hyphen confusion
17:37	dnolen	mpenet: a ticket for what? unnecessary runtime validation is not looked highly upon.
17:37	mpenet	dnolen: fine with me
17:37	p_l	IMO it should return that there were no results..
17:38	djwonk	according to http://stackoverflow.com/a/2223369/109618 "you musn't use the underscore in namespace names or the hyphen in filenames and wherever you use a hyphen in a namespace name, you must use an underscore in the filename"
17:39	dnolen	mpenet: there are quite a few annoying differences between CLJ & CLJS regexes - hopefully feature expressions can alleviate the differences for shared code bases.
17:40	hyPiRion	djwonk: There is a pull request fixing this on lein newnew
17:40	djwonk	hyPiRion : thanks. I just saw https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/865
17:40	hyPiRion	https://github.com/Raynes/lein-newnew/pull/55
17:41	djwonk	that's a catchy name
17:42	technomancy	newnew was the original name of clojure.core/reify
17:42	technomancy	#historicalfact
17:42	mpenet	dnolen: Yeah I know, it is not a major annoyance anyway
17:42	technomancy	lemme take a look at that pull
17:42	hyPiRion	it's the new new.
17:42	djwonk	will it be the newnormal?
17:43	hyPiRion	then newnew turns stable, I guess.
17:43	duck1123	"just pushed a new newnew. Please replace your old nenew with the new newnew"
17:43	technomancy	head asplode
17:43	technomancy	Raynes: anything else that should go into newnew 0.3.6?
17:46	bbloom	dnolen: mpenet: i wonder if for static patterns, a subset of the features could be compiled to platform specific regexes
17:47	amalloy	technomancy: wait, was reify really called newnew?
17:47	technomancy	amalloy: yeah, before it was implemented
17:48	dnolen	\me remembers
17:49	dnolen	oops
17:49	dnolen	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2009-07-30.html#13:09a
17:50	dnolen	glad that one didn't survive
17:51	bbloom	reify is just a damn good word in general
17:52	bbloom	if nothing else, clojure has added improved my vocabulary with reify, complect, and simple vs easy
17:53	AimHere	Also, clojure hogs all the good function names for keywords, forcing you to use your vocabulary when writing code
17:54	technomancy	keywords?
17:54	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/data_structures#toc8
17:54	bbloom	AimHere: namespaces, one honking good idea!
17:54	technomancy	thanks clojurebot
17:55	AimHere	I meant in the sense the word is used in, say, K&R to mean reserved words that the language uses for itself
17:55	dnolen	AimHere: the number of names you can't override is quite small.
17:55	AimHere	See, that's an example right there
17:55	amalloy	AimHere: wat. clojure has a very small set of "keywords"
17:55	mthvedt	think he's talking about syms in clojure.core
17:55	AimHere	Yep
17:55	dnolen	mthvedt: syms?
17:56	mthvedt	def'd
17:56	AimHere	Names of functions in the core language
17:56	amalloy	that's totally different. the standard library is not keywords
17:56	mthvedt	technical term escapes me
17:56	mthvedt	interned?
17:56	technomancy	AimHere: :refer-clojure :exclude [whatever]
17:56	dnolen	AimHere: mthvedt: yes this is wrong. You can use your own names.
17:56	Sgeo	technomancy, doesn't work for special form names
17:56	dnolen	Sgeo: we already said that twice above.
17:56	mthvedt	dnolen: i know, just trying to be helpful and/or pedantic
17:56	technomancy	so what, like six words?
17:56	Sgeo	dnolen, oops
17:57	mthvedt	preferably both
17:57	technomancy	most of which have a * on them
17:58	bbloom	dnolen: i think that any name you can't override is a bug…. the clojure design wiki mentions namespacing special forms. that's a good idea we should do
17:58	S11001001	the other is /
17:58	S11001001	special forms & / that is
17:58	amalloy	,(let [let +] (let 2 3))
17:58	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires a vector for its binding in sandbox:>
17:58	AimHere	Well I think it would be pretty bad style to reimplement 'car' and 'cdr' just because you want to use 'first' and 'rest' in your own program
17:58	bbloom	S11001001: the symbol foo// is fixed in clj 1.5
17:58	amalloy	aw, really?
17:58	AimHere	*rename the functions as
17:59	dnolen	bbloom: it's not something I care about much.
17:59	S11001001	bbloom: cool, when 1.5 is released I'll forget about it :)
17:59	djwonk	clojurebot wants to jump in on this convo
17:59	bbloom	dnolen: it's not a big deal, but it's a bit annoying in cljs/core.clj
18:00	bbloom	dnolen: when i was exploring some AST changes, i wanted to see what happened if i overrode 'do and it just kinda blew up :-P
18:19	tomoj	what trouble would come from extending IDeref and IPending to everything, where the default deref is the identity and the default realized? is (constantly true)
18:20	tomoj	other than breaking some uses of satisfies? out there
18:20	Bronsa	print-method wouldn't be happy
18:20	technomancy	it's sloppy and would shadow genuine mistakes
18:20	dnolen	tomoj: extend Object/default always needs a whopping good rationale.
18:20	tomoj	yeah, so you deref when you don't mean it and never notice
18:21	hiredman	deref is half of a monad
18:22	dnolen	tomoj: it's telling that in CLJS the only case of extend default is IHash & IEquiv
18:22	hiredman	the bind operation is basically a protocol for binding names to values
18:22	dnolen	it used to be the case for ICounted & IIndexed and that was painful.
18:23	tomoj	yeah, I wouldn't really consider extending IDeref/IPending to default, just trying to understand better why it would be bad
18:23	tpope	Is there a reasonably simple way to get a list of java classes for tab completion?
18:24	tomoj	my rationale is silly - I have many functions which may take either an IDeref or a value, and I don't want to write (if (satisfies? IDeref x) ...) in every one
18:24	technomancy	tpope: the clojure-complete library handles that
18:24	tpope	technomancy: can I count on that being available?
18:24	dnolen	tomoj: then you never know if you have a real IDeref or not, and you always have to call realized?, this sounds like the madness of not knowing wether you have a real list in Scheme.
18:25	technomancy	tpope: no, but it's completely reasonable to make completion a no-op when it's not
18:25	tpope	hmm ok
18:28	tomoj	actually, I can get away without satisfies? if I just extend IDeref to nil. :(
18:29	tomoj	or just check for nil :)
18:37	aperiodic	but if you extend it, then you can get nil satisfaction
18:39	tomoj	(satisfies? ISeq nil)
18:39	tomoj	but (not (satisfies? ASeq nil))
18:40	tomoj	..nor (satisfies? ISeqable nil)
18:40	tomoj	(in cljs)
18:46	dnolen	tomoj: now that's probably an oversight. extending to nil happens on line 381-442 core.cljs
18:47	tomoj	which is an oversight, that (satisfies? ISeq nil) is true or that one or both of the others are false?
18:47	dnolen	tomoj: or maybe not
18:48	dnolen	tomoj: I have to say extending to nil is a bit of convenience - not sure it's about semantics. In generally for perf reasons we should probably check for nil in the actually fns. this requires some hammock time from someone.
18:49	dnolen	check for nil in the actual fns I mean. like checking for nil in first, and not extending nil to ISeq.
18:49	tomoj	you're suggesting checking for nil would be faster than extending to nil?
18:49	tomoj	or that we extend to nil now for performance reasons?
18:50	dnolen	tomoj: nil check is cheap, what we're doing now is bound to be slower in the nil case.
18:51	dnolen	would probably be cleaner for nil to be extending to nothing - same as in Java
18:51	dnolen	this also makes sense from Typed Clojure perspective
18:51	dnolen	nil is not a part of anything
18:51	dnolen	it's just unioned w/ the various types that fns accepts
18:53	tomoj	seems seq and first already do check for nil
18:53	dnolen	yep
18:54	dnolen	big perf benefit there.
18:54	dnolen	when you hit the end of a seq
18:54	dnolen	so probably would take a patch that made nil not participate in all those protocols.
18:55	dnolen	and the required nil checking.
18:55	dnolen	of course would still want to check that doesn't mess things up somehow or slow things down in some way I don't see at the moment.
18:56	dnolen	but I suspect it'll be fine - that's basically how RT.java works.
19:02	tomoj	what's the seq typehint for?
19:03	tomoj	oh, I see
19:05	tomoj	I was thinking I wanted a typehint for "not boolean"
19:16	TEttinger	anyone have an idea how to implement nested commands a la supybot for lazybot?
19:17	TEttinger	`seen amalloy
19:37	amalloy	i don't understand the question
19:40	amalloy	TEttinger: ^
19:40	TEttinger	amalloy: supybot allows you to do things like (assuming prepend $ )
19:41	TEttinger	$seen [decide amalloy,TEttinger]
19:41	lazybot	I have never seen [decide.
19:41	TEttinger	and it would call decide, take what it WOULD print to the channel and use it as the args to $seen
19:41	amalloy	i predict this would require a substantial rewrite of lazybot's plugin system
19:42	TEttinger	I think it would be as simple as a binding thing... if I could figure out binding...
19:42	TEttinger	ah
19:42	TEttinger	I was going to use a new plugin, preprend twice
19:42	TEttinger	like $$
19:43	TEttinger	do you know how I could rebind irclj's output like you do for out ?
19:46	amalloy	if you wanted to add it as a special plugin, rather than making it work for existing plugins, it's a much smaller effort
19:46	amalloy	but i don't know anything about irclj
19:53	TEttinger	heh, ok.
20:16	tomoj	hmm.. it seems if your Executor for send-via runs the action in the calling thread, you get an error
20:16	tomoj	'pop without matching push'
20:17	tomoj	of thread bindings
20:18	tomoj	wonder if that's a bug, or if using a synchronous Executor is a user error
20:18	tomoj	Executor docs say "Executes the given command at some time in the future. The command may execute in a new thread, in a pooled thread, or in the calling thread, at the discretion of the Executor implementation."
20:19	hiredman	tomoj: sounds like a bug in the binding conveyence code
20:23	tomoj	yes, ((binding-conveyor-fn println)) gives the same error
20:29	tomoj	don't understand why that would happen
20:30	tomoj	seems like binding-conveyor-fn should be a noop when its return value is called right away
20:31	hiredman	:(
20:31	tomoj	it just gets the ThreadLocal<Frame> dvals when binding-conveyor-fn is called, then sets dvals to the same Frame when its return value is called
20:31	hiredman	nasty and unsafe
20:31	hiredman	very yetch, just makes me hate binding conveyence all the more
20:32	hiredman	bindig-conveyor-fn makes no effort to reset the frame back to whatever it was
20:32	tomoj	fwiw bound-fn is not broken in this respect, and binding-conveyor-fn is private
20:33	hiredman	and cloneThreadBindingFrame doesn't just clone bindings, it truncates the frame, if I recall
20:33	tomoj	ah
20:33	tomoj	right, Frame clone only copies bindings, not prev
20:34	hiredman	yetch
20:37	tomoj	so a threadpool executor with callerruns might break agents?
20:38	hiredman	any one running agent actions on a thread that may actually have bindings you want to keep is in for a bad time
21:31	gfredericks	does core.logic run in parallel now?
21:33	dnolen	gfredericks: nope, but jamii is giving that another go as well as opt-in fair conjunction
21:33	gfredericks	it makes all 4 of my cores light up
21:33	gfredericks	I guess that's just...other stuffs :)
21:48	Foxboron	gfredericks, problem number 165 is "fun" in the sense it tok 8 hours to solve :P
21:51	gfredericks	to code or to run the code?
21:53	hyPiRion	185 or 165?
22:10	Foxboron	too run.
23:23	TEttinger	ok, 4 hours later... still at the problem. I am trying to have a lazybot plugin call another lazybot plugin, get the output of the second one as a string, and pass it to the original plugin.
23:23	TEttinger	the main problem seems to be with the IRC stuff
23:23	Raynes	Yeah, you can't really do that.
23:23	TEttinger	I am not sure how to... capture the output
23:23	technomancy	if only plugins were implemented as functions
23:23	Raynes	technomancy: They are functions.
23:23	TEttinger	I have achieved some success though
23:24	technomancy	in a composable way
23:24	technomancy	=
23:24	TEttinger	they are, yeah there's an :fn internally
23:24	Raynes	technomancy: They're just stored in complicated ways.
23:24	technomancy	)
23:24	Raynes	technomancy: You're welcome to fork it and fix my terrible design.
23:24	technomancy	actually I have been intrigued by http://tools.suckless.org/ii/
23:24	technomancy	remarkable piece of soft ware
23:24	TEttinger	Raynes: I reassigned something in the :com , in case you want to see my terrible code
23:25	Raynes	technomancy: This composable magic of yours doesn't really work in an IRC context. You output to IRC. You don't just return strings.
23:26	Raynes	You can return some data structure telling the plugin system how to output what you want, but then you lose flexibility that some plugins require.
23:26	technomancy	you can't just return a map of targets to output?
23:26	Raynes	No.
23:26	technomancy	oh. that's a shame. =\
23:26	Raynes	It is.
23:27	TEttinger3	http://ideone.com/sagF9a
23:27	Raynes	Some plugins required timed releases of output, no output at all, different kinds of output, output in a thread async. Plugins can be super complex.
23:27	TEttinger3	the problem has to do with it behaving weirdly regarding [:com :connection :sockout]
23:28	TEttinger3	ohhh...
23:28	technomancy	you could do a lazy seq with a sleep in it
23:28	TEttinger3	I don't know when it will return
23:28	technomancy	but that might muck up the control thread
23:30	Raynes	technomancy: Also, I'm currently running Windows. I should download leiningen and just scream at you.
23:30	TEttinger3	heh, what?
23:31	Raynes	TEttinger: Could you summarize what you're trying to do with @com and what isn't working?
23:31	TEttinger3	Raynes, sure.
23:32	TEttinger3	...I admit I am not really sure what :com is or how it works
23:32	Raynes	TEttinger: I never thought anyone would actually mess with it. :p
23:32	TEttinger3	my version of lazybot has a TODO: document this for defplugin :-)
23:32	technomancy	Raynes: praying for your safe recovery
23:33	Raynes	@com is all the information from irclj. It holds everything irclj mutates and such.
23:33	Raynes	technomancy: Just for video games, thankfully.
23:33	TEttinger3	but I am trying to get the output from irclj into a StringWriter
23:33	TEttinger3	which could be trouble
23:33	Raynes	There is about a -4% chance of that working.
23:33	Raynes	There can be 100 things writing to those streams at a time.
23:35	TEttinger3	Raynes: ...so is "piping" one plugin's printed messages into another plugin impossible with lazybot?
23:35	Raynes	It probably is, sadly.
23:35	TEttinger3	ah. worth a shot...
23:36	Raynes	technomancy has a point in that it could potentially be rewritten to be more composable, but I think it would be at the cost of flexibility in plugins. Might be an interesting thing to try sometime though.
23:37	technomancy	Raynes: return a per-channel vector where strings are emitted and numerics represent a pause?
23:37	Raynes	That was just an example.
23:37	technomancy	probably a handler/middleware approach a la ring and nrepl
23:38	technomancy	or something
23:38	Raynes	Ugh
23:38	technomancy	well probably more like aleph
23:38	technomancy	since it's async
23:38	Raynes	The primary issue would be plugins that do things like notify async. The Github commit plugin, for example.
23:38	Raynes	It screams "GIVE ME A QUEUE!" but a queue wont help for composability.
23:39	Raynes	Regular commands on the other hand might be possible.
23:39	Raynes	To do what you say, I mean.
23:39	technomancy	irclj 2.0.0
23:39	Raynes	Things that do threads are typically hooks which you wouldn't want to grab anyways.
23:39	Raynes	This isn't an irclj thing.
23:39	technomancy	(says the guy who hasn't released version 2.0.0 of his project)
23:39	Raynes	Irclj is entirely composable enough.
23:39	technomancy	oh right
23:40	Raynes	Lazybot is written by me when I was like 14.
23:40	technomancy	excellent point
23:40	Raynes	I've rewritten parts of it over time but have never given it a real shakedown.