#clojure – 2012-11-27

2012-11-27

00:00	bbloom	clj_newb_2345: hm, might be just because all the hot spots have been inlined into your program
00:00	clj_newb_2345	my cojurescript code is so shitty that my laptop's fan audibly spins up when I run my code
00:00	bbloom	is it faster? heh
00:00	clj_newb_2345	it's interactive gui; don't have a nice test suite yet
00:00	bbloom	clj_newb_2345: you know what they say right? lisp is two languages: one for writing programs fast, and another for writing fast programs :-)
00:01	clj_newb_2345	why hasn't someone written macros for writing fast programs fast?
00:01	clj_newb_2345	i'm sorely tempted to switch back to java grpahics 2d
00:01	dnolen	bbloom: source mapping is making me realize two things - it's insane that we don't have position information on symbols - and the CLJS compiler doesn't generate proper AST for many things.
00:02	bbloom	dnolen: yes, the AST is broken in a whole bunch of places
00:02	dnolen	clj_newb_2345: problem #1 for fast graphics - SVG
00:02	bbloom	dnolen: i had a core.logic idea: data validator!
00:02	clj_newb_2345	dnolen: oh, don't use svg?
00:02	clj_newb_2345	dnolen: I was hoping to write something like mathjax, but interactive
00:02	dnolen	clj_newb_2345: it really depends
00:02	clj_newb_2345	dnolen: what should I use instead?
00:02	bbloom	dnolen: you should be able to describe a validator for a clojure data structure and poof have it run
00:02	dnolen	clj_newb_2345: but if you have a lot of entities - it sucks
00:02	clj_newb_2345	dnolen: I'm actually using svg inside of chrome, using javascript to dynamically create/delete nodes
00:02	clj_newb_2345	dnolen: I do, I need a single svg group for each character
00:02	bbloom	dnolen: for example: http://code.google.com/p/closure-compiler/source/browse/trunk/src/com/google/javascript/jscomp/AstValidator.java
00:03	clj_newb_2345	currently, I have a torture test of simulating a 80x20 terminal, where instead of using a svg:text per line, it's a svg:text per character
00:03	clj_newb_2345	and i'm manuappy placing the characters
00:03	dnolen	clj_newb_2345: yeah for intense drawing you gotta go low level w/ canvas
00:03	bbloom	you should work your cljs/logic magic and come up with a data validator library and then apply it to the ast :-) then we could have a "formal" ast spec too
00:03	clj_newb_2345	is canvas or graphics2d faster?
00:04	dnolen	clj_newb_2345: I'm not sure that comparison even makes sense
00:04	dnolen	clj_newb_2345: but canvas is not bad
00:04	dnolen	bbloom: well hugod and lynaghk are kinda blazing that trial - if not using it for validation specifically.
00:05	bbloom	dnolen: well lynaghk wants to use it for term rewriting, right?
00:05	bbloom	dnolen: what is hugod using it for?
00:05	dnolen	bbloom: they both are
00:05	dnolen	constraints and rewriting
00:05	bbloom	dnolen: what's hugod's use case?
00:05	dnolen	bbloom: configuration for pallet it looks like
00:05	clj_newb_2345	does java (not chrome/web) have a nice way to organize a scene graph of javagraphics2D objects?
00:06	bbloom	dnolen: neat.
00:06	bbloom	dnolen: well i have a bunch of thoughts about the AST
00:06	dnolen	bbloom: I know
00:06	bbloom	dnolen: i really hate the :children property :-)
00:07	bbloom	that and :env make printing the trees kinda annoying
00:07	dnolen	bbloom: the last big debate about CLJS AST, suggestion was to move into :children to avoid duplication.
00:07	dnolen	and not have things outside.
00:08	bbloom	dnolen: i liked the children as a vector of keys approach, but it didn't play nice with bindings
00:08	dnolen	bbloom: :env makes AST pretty printing annoying, but it's pretty darn nice in the compiler itself.
00:08	dnolen	bbloom: binding should become a proper AST node I think.
00:09	bbloom	dnolen: yup, let is currently a macro that compiles to let, but i think there needs to be a let-just-one-binding node… the issue is then that loop supports simultaneous bindings, so it's the odd man out again
00:10	bbloom	dnolen: also, we need a root level AST node: :op :script or something
00:10	dnolen	root might be useful - skeptical about let*-just-one-binding
00:11	bbloom	dnolen: i understand the skepticism, i'd like to prototype it first
00:11	bbloom	dnolen: but binding as an ast node is a similar idea
00:12	bbloom	dnolen: fixes the interleaved ordering problem
00:13	bbloom	dnolen: the biggest issue i ran into is that not every spot has a "body env" .. there needs to be some kind of synthetic empty blocks, so there is somewhere to hang an :env … as it is, if you have (let [x 1]) then there is no way to get the env at (let [x 1] THIS EMPTY SPOT)
00:13	dnolen	bbloom: yes I know you mentioned that was a problem in your CPS adventures
00:13	bbloom	dnolen: sorry if i'm repeating myself :-)
00:14	bbloom	dnolen: just thinking aloud
00:14	dnolen	bbloom: heh I know, I'm mostly concerned atm w/ fixing the AST enough for good source mapping - that's a bit of work as it is.
00:14	bbloom	dnolen: i believe it
00:15	bbloom	dnolen: do you know for sure what needs to change in the upstream reader?
00:15	bbloom	dnolen: or maybe it's time to move to the self hosted reader? :-)
00:15	dnolen	yes, col and line info on all symbols
00:16	dnolen	Bronsa's already pitched blind as a contrib - just waiting to here from the powers that be.
00:16	dnolen	soon as it's I plan on switching to it - waiting on the Clojure reader is just crazy.
00:16	Sgeo__	blind?
00:17	dnolen	Sgeo__: Clojure (not Java) reader for Clojure source
00:17	krl_	ok, i guess this comes up a lot, and might be a slime issue, but is there a way to have printlns inside of functions being used as predicates for maps act in the same way as those outside?
00:18	Sgeo__	krl, the issue isn't println behaving different, it's a matter of whether or not println gets run
00:18	bbloom	dnolen: does blind reuse any of the code in the cljs reader?
00:18	bbloom	dnolen: or it a THIRD reader?
00:18	Sgeo__	Erm, wait, by maps, do you mean like (map println [1 2 3])?
00:18	Sgeo__	Or do you mean {} and I just have no idea what you're asking
00:18	dnolen	bbloom: no, it's a pure Clojure port of the Java version of the reader
00:18	dnolen	bbloom: cljs reader is just EDN, doesn't count
00:19	bbloom	dnolen: oh
00:19	dnolen	you can't bootstrap a compiler w/ it
00:19	bbloom	dnolen: gotcha
00:19	Sgeo__	Ooh, so Clojure-in-Clojure is doing well?
00:19	leo2007	which jvm to use, 1.6 or 1.7?
00:19	krl	in emacs, using slime, this code (map #(println (format "hello %s" %)) ["world"]) works differently than just (println "hello world")
00:19	bbloom	dnolen: I'm peeking at the source now… i like my implementation of syntax-quote better ;-) heh
00:20	Sgeo__	krl, with the former, is it just not getting run?
00:20	krl	why would it not be getting run?
00:20	Sgeo__	map returns a so called "lazy seq"
00:20	dnolen	Sgeo__: a pure Clojure reader would be a big step. But to really know if we're doing well some one has to reuse these tools for something that's not JS.
00:21	Sgeo__	That is, it merely describes how to get the elements
00:21	bbloom	dnolen: we really should namespace all the special forms too :-)
00:21	Sgeo__	It won't actually do the println until needed in order to get at the elements
00:21	krl	Sgeo__: hmm. could be. it does print in the minibuffer though for some reason
00:21	Sgeo__	One way to force it is to call doall or dorun on it. doall returns all the elements, dorun returns nil, and uses less memory
00:21	Sgeo__	Oh
00:22	dnolen	bbloom: heh you like to think about long-term improvements ;) The list of things worth fixing now for people actually using CLJS is not short.
00:22	krl	Sgeo__: but actually using doall made it print in the right place.
00:22	Sgeo__	bbloom, PLEASE namespacing of special forms in Clojure
00:22	bbloom	heh see dnolen Sgeo__ wants it :-)
00:22	dnolen	:P
00:23	bbloom	dnolen: I just like to set the bar high
00:23	bbloom	dnolen: sometimes, i fail miserably
00:23	Sgeo__	,(let [do concat] (do [1 2] [3 4]))
00:23	clojurebot	[3 4]
00:23	bbloom	dnolen: but sometimes i get way further than i expected :-)
00:23	Sgeo__	,(let [-> concat] (-> [1 2] [3 4]))
00:23	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
00:23	Sgeo__	&(let [-> concat] (-> [1 2] [3 4])) ; wrong behavior
00:23	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Key must be integer
00:24	Sgeo__	,(-> [1 2] [3 4])
00:24	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Key must be integer>
00:24	Sgeo__	..I don't entirely get why that error in particular
00:24	dnolen	bbloom: I'm all for these kinds of improvements - but I think we have to addres some underlying issues first.
00:24	bbloom	dnolen: which ones?
00:24	bbloom	dnolen: besides source maps, of course
00:24	bbloom	and everything leading up to source maps haha
00:25	dnolen	bbloom: after source map it would be nice to do a sanity pass on the AST and acutally document it.
00:25	dnolen	bbloom: whatever we come w/ should be able to accomodate CLJ JVM
00:25	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, i really think more formality with the AST would be good. hence the core.logic validation idea :-)
00:25	dnolen	then we can start having discussion about building cool stuff on top of that.
00:27	dnolen	bbloom: that sounds like a fun (and useful) side project, yes. but I think just having a design, discussion, eyes, patches is a good start.
00:28	bbloom	dnolen: fair enough. should we just start a wiki page?
00:28	bbloom	oh wait
00:29	bbloom	didn't somebody alreayd start with a google doc a while back?
00:29	dnolen	bbloom: yep, jonasen tho it would be nice to get that directly on the wiki page.
00:32	bbloom	dnolen: yeah here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DRN-tBIqhqVVyoHIDs7CMkduBFk-vqd_958ojeIBLHQ/edit
00:34	dnolen	bbloom: right - should probably link to that from wiki
00:36	bbloom	dnolen: for now: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Formalize+AST
00:36	bbloom	i gotta run, but i'll write up my thoughts neatly soon
00:37	dnolen	bbloom: cool thx
00:39	seangrove	Oh man, I can't figure out how to get a single reasonable test to run in cljs
00:39	wingy	i have a form-params map and want to return a response depending on what keys/values are present in the map using pattern matching instead of nested (if) forms .. how is this done in clj?
00:43	dnolen	seangrove: what are you trying to do?
00:43	dnolen	seangrove: test at command line? in browser?
00:48	seangrove	I'd like to run "lein cljsbuild test" and have it run the cljs tests in an environment that has access to a dom.
00:49	seangrove	I've been trying to figure out how to run a cljs test in phantomjs based on cljs-bootstrap, but it really seems like it's not all there
00:50	dnolen	seangrove: so is this something that lein cljsbuild test supports?
00:50	seangrove	And I can't seem to find any examples of how people are doing it elsewhere
00:51	seangrove	Really not sure. I suppose "lein cljsbuild test" was incorrect, I meant "$ <something>" and my cljs test suite runs and tells me what, if anything broken
00:51	seangrove	Are you running any tests at all on any of your cljs projects?
00:52	dnolen	seangrove: in a very hacky way yes - just w/ a script and a CLJS test file of asserts
00:52	seangrove	Ok, and that's not in a browser, right?
00:52	dnolen	seangrove: for CLJS proper - it's somewhat necessary because we want to test at commandline against a variety of JS engines
00:52	dnolen	seangrove: yeah not in browser
00:52	seangrove	Ah, I might have found something, let me give it a try
00:53	seangrove	I'll commit to porting clojure.test to cljs once I have the bare minimum environment running
00:53	dnolen	seangrove: I guess you're following this and it's not working - http://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/blob/0.2.9/doc/TESTING.md
00:53	dnolen	seangrove: heh no need to commit - but I definitely think people would use it if were available.
00:54	seangrove	Yeah, exactly. I'll stepped away for 20 minutes though, and I'll give it another try now
00:54	seangrove	Well, it'd be a good project, and I'd like to get more involved with cljs where possible to help out
00:56	dnolen	seangrove: emulating cljs.test would require some help from the compiler - we could use the namespaces atom (which holds all defs in the compiler) to figure what the tests are in a namespace and generate some CLJS that runs them all.
01:01	bbloom	seangrove: I'm about to run into the browser-level cljs testing issue myself
01:01	bbloom	not sure what i'm gonna do about it yet
01:01	bbloom	i've been manually running asserts on refresh
01:04	seangrove	bbloom: Would running the tests in phantomjs be acceptable, or do you need actual browsers?
01:04	bbloom	seangrove: I haven't used phantomjs ever before, but my experience with DOM testing is that browser quirks are kinda important to fix
01:04	bbloom	dnolen: what now? :-/
01:05	bbloom	seangrove: the strategy i've used to good effect is to write a little test runner page and then load tests in an iframe
01:05	dnolen	bbloom: just all these places where we don't have real ast nodes and call munge directly
01:05	bbloom	seangrove: this way test runs are manual-ish
01:05	dnolen	that should never happen - we want everything to go through emit :var so we can put source mapping logic in one place
01:05	bbloom	dnolen: at least all the munging is in the code generator now :-)
01:05	seangrove	bbloom: Used to work at Sauce Labs, I'd like everything to be automated as much as possible :)
01:06	bbloom	seangrove: heh. my experience with selenium was rather poor
01:06	seangrove	Yeah, it was a janky project. Web-driver seems like a better approach
01:06	bbloom	seangrove: ultimately what my startup did was use JUUUUST ENOUGH selenium to navigate to /test.html and wait for "finished" to appear and then extract the number of tests/asserts/passes/fails and print that
01:07	bbloom	seangrove: that let us test everything except for some more subtle platform things, like file pickers
01:07	bbloom	seangrove: so we just tested those by hands
01:07	bbloom	all the actual tests were pure javascript, no browser driver
01:07	seangrove	Ah, ok
01:07	seangrove	So you could potentially have just run it in v8?
01:07	bbloom	v8 doesn't include a dom
01:08	seangrove	Heh, so not pure js ;)
01:08	seangrove	js + dom
01:08	bbloom	sorry, i mean pure js in the sense that it wasn't external browser automatino
01:08	bbloom	it ran IN a real browser
01:08	seangrove	Ok, got it
01:08	bbloom	much faster than selenium tho
01:08	bbloom	i've been meaning to get skrenzel to open source that damn test library. it was amazing :-)
01:09	seangrove	I think with phantomjs it should still be very fast, can have it run on commit hook, and have cross-browser tests run in CI
01:09	seangrove	What startup was it, by the way?
01:09	bbloom	thinkfuse
01:10	seangrove	Wow, great - you still at Salesforce then?
01:10	bbloom	nope
01:11	seangrove	Well, let me see if I can put together a reasonable package for running automated tests with DOM access via phantomjs
01:11	seangrove	Feels like it could fill a need
01:11	bbloom	seangrove: would be nice if you can contribute it to cljs-build
01:12	seangrove	Feels like it should be a separate project that can work with cljs-build. Early projects always tend to be pretty bad, and are supersceded by someone who knows what they hell they're doing later.
01:12	bbloom	haha fair enough
01:31	tomoj	hmm.. (range a (inc b))
01:32	tomoj	that sometimes bothers me, but if I read it as a little flag that says "inclusive", great!
01:35	bbloom	tomoj: heh, great mnemonic
01:38	seangrove	Heh, nice
01:42	mpan	is there an equivalent to proxy for a superclass known at runtime?
01:42	mpan	or perhaps I may be trying to do something wrong here
01:49	mpan	what I would have liked was to do something along the lines of this: (let [o Object] (proxy [o] []))
01:49	mpan	but perhaps that's a sign I'm going about it the wrong way
01:50	tomoj	what are you actually trying to do?
01:51	mpan	this weird framework has multiple interfaces which for my purposes are the same
01:52	mpan	although I need to double check this now that I think about it because it sounds very wrong in my head
01:52	seangrove	Ok, so in the advanced lein-cljsbuild project, it has a build section :test
01:52	mpan	I have no idea why it seems to be OK with me leaving out a method that the interface specifies
01:53	mpan	granted, the interface says the method returns void, but interop seems happy to let me just leave it out entirely
01:53	seangrove	That outputs to resources/private/js/unit-test.js. In it, it has code included from the compiled tests, but also from the main cljs as well - the cljs test ns does a (use :main.project.ns)
01:53	SegFaultAX	Re: lein-ring, when is it appropriate to use an uberwar over a normal war?
01:54	seangrove	I can't get that same output in my project - the compiled unit-test.js only has my unit-test.cljs in it, it doesn't seem to be including the other cljs source at all
01:57	mpan	quite strange, the proxy is willing to lie about implementing an interface and then when used at runtime complains otherwise
01:57	seangrove	I can't tell if there's some magic that knows to include the source cljs in the unit-test, or I'm just configuring things incorrectly
02:00	leo2007	has nrepl completely replaced slime+swank?
02:05	seangrove	leo2007: Yes, swank-clojure has been deprecated
02:05	tomoj	mpan: why do you only know the interfaces at runtime?
02:06	leo2007	seangrove: nrepl is a strict superset of swank-clojure?
02:06	mpan	tomoj: it's one from a list, but which one depended on some runtime into, which I figured I should probably restructure because that sounded wrong
02:06	seangrove	leo2007: Not really, no, but is there anything you're looking for in particular?
02:07	leo2007	Nothing in particular. I already have swank-clojure running from months ago.
02:07	leo2007	Just want to know the community's opinion on the new tool.
02:08	seangrove	I switched form swank-clojure to nrepl.el about a week or so ago, no complaints
02:08	tomoj	I switched and had to switch back, but don't remember why :/
02:08	seangrove	M-. and friends all work :)
02:08	tomoj	I use slime-inspector quite often
02:09	Raynes	tomoj: Inspector need somebody who cares about it to get it working with nrepl.
02:10	leo2007	I guess I will get it running to test out!
02:12	tomoj	Raynes: you mean get slime-inspect working? or write a new inspector? either way, I still use swank-clojure for work right now. since I haven't figured out how to get them to play nice in one emacs, I guess I should start another emacs and do scratch work in it with nrepl
02:17	echo-area	I use ritz + swank. But the java process uses more and more memory. Does anyone know why?
02:19	unic0rn	the memory allocation strategy of java can be described in 3 words.
02:19	unic0rn	nom nom nom.
02:19	mpan	where is the correct place to put the equivalent of "static initializers" i.e. stuff that needs to be run exactly once and before other stuff
02:20	mpan	my current example is loading a table of values into a def'd atom
02:20	nightfly_	defonce is useful :)
02:20	mpan	er, rather, my current process is to def it as an atom to nil and then initialize it
02:22	mpan	should I switch to defonce and just move that call into the defonce?
02:29	nightfly_	Not sure really. I'm working on something right now that uses a global ref that is defonced and then is populated my a function that is called in main. I'd be interested in the best way of handling this too.
02:30	mpan	I suppose part of my problem is I don't currently have a single "main"
02:57	jondavidjohn	how would I go about reducing a vector of vectors?
02:57	jondavidjohn	making this.. [[1 2] [3 4]] into .. [1 2 3 4]
02:58	tomoj	you already said it :)
02:58	tomoj	&(reduce into [[1 2] [3 4]])
02:58	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3 4]
02:59	Raynes	tomoj: Well, the existing inspector is written in Clojure. It just needs to be changed to work with nrepl.
02:59	tomoj	slime-inspector is certainly not written in clojure - are we talking about the same thing?
03:01	tomoj	hmm
03:01	tomoj	is it?
03:02	tomoj	I mean certainly parts of what make slime-inspect work are in slime
03:07	Raynes	tomoj: https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/blob/master/src/swank/commands/inspector.clj
03:07	Raynes	I meant one would want to get that working with nrepl. Might require a whole rewrite. shrug
03:08	Raynes	I don't really know how it all works because I've never used nor cared about the inspecotr.
03:14	jondavidjohn	tomoj: I ended up using (flatten [[1 2] [3 4]])
03:14	jondavidjohn	is that ok? any reason to use the reduce method?
03:16	jyu	hello, any distribution library in clojure?
03:17	tomoj	flatten is overkill
03:17	tomoj	and it doesn't give you a vector back
03:18	tomoj	Raynes: ah right. biggest problem for me is the elisp involved..
03:18	jondavidjohn	right, i had to do (vec (flatten ...) )
03:18	jondavidjohn	cool, I'll use reduce, thanks!
03:19	tomoj	unless you really want to flatten
03:19	tomoj	&(flatten [[[1 2 3] [4]] [5 6] [7]])
03:19	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
03:19	tomoj	&(reduce into [[[1 2 3] [4]] [5 6] [7]])
03:19	lazybot	⇒ [[1 2 3] [4] 5 6 7]
03:20	jondavidjohn	gotcha, so if i was working with deeper data structures, flatten might be a better idea, but since I'm only ever working with one deep, reduce is more performant?
03:29	foodoo	&(apply concat [[1 2] [3 4]])
03:29	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3 4)
04:52	tomoj	simplify: (map (partial map f) coll)
04:53	tomoj	hmm
04:54	unnali	non-trivial?
04:54	Sgeo__	So coll is a collection of collections?
04:55	unnali	if we go all Haskelly
04:55	unnali	f :: a -> b
04:55	unnali	partial map f :: [a] -> b
04:55	unnali	[a] -> [b]*
04:55	unnali	typo
04:55	unnali	map (partial map f) :: [[a]] -> [[b]]
04:55	unnali	so coll is [[a]]
04:55	unnali	where a is the input of f
04:56	tomoj	(fmap.fmap)
04:56	unnali	Sgeo__: yeah, I know ;-)
04:56	tomoj	I expected (comp r/map r/map) to work
04:56	tomoj	it sort of does I think
04:56	unnali	it should.
04:57	Sgeo__	It's because fmap takes a function and returns another function, whereas map takes two arguments.. maybe?
04:57	tomoj	you must supply the final collection curried, though
04:57	Sgeo__	Why r/map and not map?
04:57	Sgeo__	What's r?
04:58	tomoj	(((comp r/map r/map) inc) [[1 2 3] [4] [5 6 7]]) seems to work
04:58	tomoj	((comp r/map r/map) inc [[1 2 3] [4] [5 6 7]]) blows up
04:58	tomoj	r is clojure.core.reducers
04:59	Sgeo__	tomoj, well, that
04:59	Sgeo__	well, that's not necessarily unexpected
04:59	tomoj	yeah
04:59	tomoj	I didn't expect it because all my functions are curried here
05:00	tomoj	the functor is never passed with the, uh, functand?
05:02	tomoj	s/sort of //
05:05	tomoj	hmm
05:18	borkdude	functions that are evaluated in the REPL are just as compiled as any others right? how does this work again? where does clojure emit a .class file for a function defined in the REPL?
05:19	p_l	borkdude: you can generate the bytecode and load it without creating a file
05:19	borkdude	ah
06:06	p_l	gah. Forgot how memory-hungry java is
06:13	echo-area	p_l: I use nrepl + swank, and have kind of the same issue.
06:13	Bergle_2	get more ram :)
06:14	p_l	Bergle_2: 6G here
06:14	Bergle_2	if its swapping :) its not enough.
06:14	echo-area	But that becomes ridiculous for running a REPL
06:14	Bergle_2	i bought 16GB recently for like $80 lol
06:14	p_l	Bergle_2: work machine
06:14	p_l	can't just add ram
06:15	Bergle_2	that sucks, but at least your using clojure at work :)
06:15	p_l	(also, unclear if it doesn't require rare FB-DIMM)
06:15	p_l	Bergle_2: only by own initiative, which is waning right now
06:15	Bergle_2	i usually amazed how many companies dont make sure the devs have good performance machines.
06:15	p_l	Bergle_2: it's good enough performance for most
06:16	Bergle_2	first thing i did at last company was get 3 ssd's for dev's and more ram.
06:16	p_l	also, government procurement is slow
06:16	Bergle_2	ahha double whammy - work + govt :) heh
06:26	p_l	eh, maybe I'll manage to ease the memory pressure by modding OS params
06:39	wingy	what middleware should i add to get a stacktrace on the web browser when ring is encountering an error: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7016
06:43	borkdude	why is the news info gone from clojure.org?
06:48	xeqi	wingy: http://clojuredocs.org/ring/ring.middleware.stacktrace/wrap-stacktrace
06:49	wingy	xeqi: why can't i find it in https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/tree/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware
06:49	xeqi	wingy: https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/master/ring-devel/src/ring/middleware/stacktrace.clj
06:49	xeqi	its under ring/ring-devel
06:51	wingy	xeqi: thx
06:51	wingy	worked great
06:58	borkdude	what is the recent stabile clojure version, still 1.4?
07:00	foodoo	borkdude: yes
07:00	foodoo	borkdude: although 1.3 is also marked as "stable" http://clojure.github.com/clojure/
07:19	wingy	the difference between def and atom is that atom can be changed later on while def vars cannot be changed?
07:21	HolyJak	Well, you can redefine a variable (unless you used defonce) but I feel it is kind of evil :)
07:21	HolyJak	atom is better if you actually want to share state between threads safely
07:24	borkdude	redefining vars is only allowed for REPL-purposes I think
07:24	wingy	HolyJak: but i can't redefine a variable from a fn right?
07:24	wingy	i can't use (def) inside a fn
07:24	wingy	yeah
07:24	wingy	so atom it is
07:24	borkdude	wingy you can, but it's not "idiomatic"
07:24	wingy	yeah .. looks weird
07:26	HolyJak	not idiomatic - or, in other words, evil :)
07:28	wingy	it's even forbidden
07:28	wingy	judge dredd will come after you
07:30	borkdude	you can however use def in a macro (like defn)
07:33	wingy	i c
07:37	josteink_	Im trying to create a "self-aware" object in clojure, but I cant get it right
07:37	josteink_	Im trying something akin to
07:37	josteink_	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7017
07:37	josteink_	anyone have any leads on what Im doing wrong?
07:37	josteink_	the compiler basically says that "me" cannot reference "me"...'
07:39	rodnaph_	josteink: i know it's not the answer you want, but why are you trying to do that? is there a better solution (clojure is complaining because the second "me" doesn't exist until the first "me" is created)
07:39	madsy	josteink: Because "me" isn't bound yet when you call the function. What you probably want is let* instead of let
07:39	josteink	rodnaph_: Im trying to create a system where components can distribute messages, and every message needs to have a caller to avoid causing endless loops
07:40	rodnaph_	josteink: sounds like lamina might help you out (https://github.com/ztellman/lamina)
07:40	josteink	Im trying to -implement- something like that myself
07:41	josteink	not reuse others implementation
07:41	josteink	educational stuff ;)
07:41	josteink	madsy: let me look into that
07:43	josteink	madsy: got any links?
07:43	josteink	examples?
07:43	clojurebot	examples is api examples
07:44	madsy	josteink: Hm.. maybe Clojure didn't have let*. I'm puzzled now.
07:44	josteink	so in clojure a thing cannot reference itself ever?
07:44	josteink	that sounds like a odd limitation
07:45	madsy	,(let [a 1] [b (+ a 2)] b)
07:45	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: b in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
07:45	josteink	,(let [a 1 b (+ a 2)] b)
07:45	clojurebot	3
07:45	josteink	but this is a no go
07:46	josteink	,(def x (let* [boo { :self boo :hoo "zoo" }] boo))
07:46	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
07:46	josteink	,(let* [boo { :self boo :hoo "zoo" }] boo)
07:46	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: boo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
07:46	rodnaph_	josteink: the let macro is really just sugar over the identity monad.
07:46	josteink	so
07:46	josteink	in clojere no entity can know its own identity?
07:47	josteink	how do you auto-establish callers in messaging scenarios then?
07:47	josteink	"you dont" sounds like a pretty odd limitaion :P
07:48	mpan	josteink: how do you propose to evaluate that self reference? I'm confused
07:48	rodnaph_	i'm afraid i don't really understand what you're trying to do, but i doubt there is any limitation.
07:49	rodnaph_	(no limitation on achieving your goal i mean)
07:49	mpan	you want a circular reference? I thought they tried hard not to let you do that directly
07:49	mpan	or am I misreading your question?
07:49	josteink	rodnaph_: I want a function to have equivalent of "this" in java or C#
07:50	josteink	mpan: I want a self-reference
07:50	josteink	so I can make "signed calls" from an object to another
07:50	josteink	Im trying to cheat with atoms here
07:50	mpan	with regards to interop, the interop calls have special features for "this"
07:50	mpan	with regard to outside of interop, I think I recall hearing that it's intentionally not allowed directly
07:51	mpan	you can use e.g. an atom to do it but that would be stylistically very strange
07:51	mpan	may I ask, why do you want "this"?
07:51	rodnaph_	if you want objects i think unless you use interop you're out of luck. you probably need to rethink your problem with FP in mind.
07:51	josteink	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7018
07:51	josteink	Ill try something like this then
07:51	josteink	I need to be able to identify myself as a caller
07:51	josteink	or else the system will have those circular loops you're not supposed to have :P
07:51	mpan	can you use some concept of "names" instead?
07:52	mpan	rather than references?
07:52	josteink	I like self-contained ID systems
07:52	josteink	otehrwise I would need a mutable name-caller structure
07:52	josteink	with global scope
07:52	josteink	and that is even worse
07:52	ChongLi	does calling reify on protocols count as interop?
07:53	josteink	I just want component A to be able to call component B saying (hey , Im compont A) so that component B can authorize the messager
07:53	josteink	I dont want a framework
07:53	josteink	I want simple inter-function identity :)
07:53	mpan	why can't A send some concept of a name?
07:53	josteink	because component B should be able to call back to component A
07:53	josteink	and names is misdirection
07:53	mpan	put something to dispatch
07:54	josteink	instead of compoent B going straight at A, it needs to look up As identity in a table
07:54	josteink	and then call it
07:54	josteink	instead of just passing it along directly
07:54	josteink	thats inefficient, obscures the code, and doesnt add any value
07:54	mpan	if you want to directly be able to have that sort of reference then you need something like e.g. an atom
07:54	josteink	like I said
07:54	josteink	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7018
07:54	josteink	Ill try something like this
07:54	mpan	was just trying to clarify what it was you wanted
07:55	josteink	yeah
07:55	josteink	I want a object to know its own identity
07:55	josteink	I find it strange that is should be so much work
07:55	josteink	:)
07:55	mpan	maybe I shouldn't be suggesting this because stylistically it would be strange, but have you considered e.g. an atom containing another one?
07:56	mpan	I guess that doesn't help much either though :/
07:56	josteink	example?
07:56	clojurebot	api examples is examples
07:56	mpan	never mind actually, it wouldn't work how I initially thought it might
07:56	mpan	sorry to confuse you there
07:59	josteink	hehe
07:59	josteink	np
07:59	mpan	josteink: this is an alternative idea you might want to try
07:59	josteink	w00
07:59	josteink	it compiles :)
07:59	mpan	every action you take on something, you could pass itself in
08:00	josteink	mpan: that is what Im trying to do
08:00	josteink	but to do so, I need to know my own identity
08:01	mpan	if you pass the value in, then in the function the value is known? why does the value need to be special beyond just an atom?
08:01	mpan	sorry I don't follow why you need the extra layer if you're doing that
08:01	josteink	because Im using message-passing style objects
08:02	josteink	I want to pass an object in to another object
08:02	josteink	and I want the object to be able to act on that
08:02	solussd	josteink: I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish, but you can declare a var before it is bound, e.g. (declare selfaware) (defn selfaware [] selfaware)
08:02	si14	how would you guys do a cross-platform app on Clojure with sub-100ms startup time?
08:02	josteink	solussd: that is global scope
08:02	josteink	solussd: I want function-local
08:02	solussd	ah
08:02	mpan	si14: is prestarting jvms an option for you by any chance?
08:03	josteink	mpan: I want a object A, to be able to call object B's method "somethin" with itself as a parameter, so that object B can call back to ibject A's "some-other" function
08:03	solussd	si14: clojurescript + node.js?
08:03	josteink	using message-passing style object calls
08:03	mpan	I'm gonna try to write up an example of what I was trying to say
08:03	si14	mpan: it's definitely an option, but the question is how do you talk to Clojure server from shell in cross-platform way
08:03	josteink	thats as simple as I can explain it
08:03	si14	solussd: it's an option, but full-blown Clojure is nicer IMO
08:03	mpan	si14: there was a project which did this but I don't remember the name at the moment :(
08:04	mpan	preloading jvms, that is
08:04	josteink	si14: "drip"
08:04	josteink	does preloading of JVMs
08:04	josteink	https://github.com/flatland/drip
08:04	josteink	works on unixes, not windows AFAIK
08:04	solussd	yeah, if "full-blown" = java interop, prestarting is the way to go
08:05	si14	it's definitely the way, but how to talk with JVM is a question :)
08:05	si14	preferrably without binaries at all
08:05	si14	not sure that's not doable on plain shell
08:05	si14	not know how to do it either :)
08:06	si14	josteink: I need Windows too, unfortunately
08:06	solussd	josteink: is this acceptable? (let [self (defn self [] self)]) :)
08:06	josteink	solussd: no
08:06	solussd	:(
08:06	josteink	solussd: the (defn inside the let binding WILL create a global scope binding
08:07	josteink	like I said
08:07	josteink	Ive settled with a construct like this
08:07	josteink	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7018
08:07	josteink	dirty but it works, and is pretty obvious
08:07	solussd	well so will your original example
08:07	josteink	no
08:07	josteink	anyway, I was wondering if there was a simple way to create a self-referencing entity in clojure
08:08	solussd	you mean you dont want a global binding for self?
08:08	josteink	no
08:08	josteink	never
08:08	solussd	something common lisp is bubbling yup to the surface in my head
08:08	josteink	I want each and every tiny little object I create of the million objects I create to each have their own "self", which refers to themselves
08:08	josteink	anyway, I was wondering if there was a simple way to create a self-referencing entity in clojure
08:08	josteink	a simple yes no question
08:08	josteink	I guess the answer is "no"
08:08	josteink	:P
08:08	mpan	josteink: I think I've got an example of "explicitly passing in self"
08:08	josteink	got any code to share?
08:09	josteink	to compare with what ive already done?
08:09	mpan	let me make it correct first
08:09	mpan	=p
08:10	clojure-newb	hey guys, I'm currently doing (ffirst (reverse (sort on a collection to get the item with the latest date in a hash set… its a bit newb.. whats the idiomatic way to do this ?
08:10	mpan	josteink: ok I meant something like https://www.refheap.com/paste/7020
08:11	mpan	you have functions and atoms, and you pass the atoms into the functions, specifically that the functions take an explicit "this"-equivalent as first arg
08:11	alexnixon	clojure-newb: something along the lines of (apply max-key :date [coll])
08:11	mpan	note that if you wanted the fn to know the caller, the caller can explicitly pass its atom
08:12	clojure-newb	alexnixon: thx I'll have a look
08:12	josteink	mpan: "def" is evil
08:12	mpan	like foo could have taken an extra arg that's "the atom of who it's from"
08:12	josteink	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7021
08:12	mpan	josteink: but you could do the same thing locally
08:12	josteink	def bleeds to the global scope
08:12	mpan	as in, a didn't need to be def'd
08:12	mpan	you could just as well have created an atom in local scope and done the same things to it
08:13	mpan	as in, my example could be entirely rewritten with a let
08:13	mpan	and they're just plain atoms, so you could hand them around as you like
08:14	josteink	mpan: I think youve missed my two pastes so far
08:14	josteink	which shows you that Ive already solved this using an atom :P
08:14	mpan	it's very similar
08:14	mpan	and I was saying, you can use an atom
08:15	mpan	but you didn't need to go and make something special to "get this"
08:15	josteink	anyway
08:15	josteink	thanks for the help
08:15	mpan	is the point I was trying to make
08:15	josteink	but you can stop
08:15	mpan	ok
08:15	mpan	hope it was useful for you
08:15	josteink	I see that to reference yourself you need to trick around with atoms
08:15	josteink	yes yes
08:15	josteink	absolutely
08:15	josteink	but you went on far beyond what was needed ;)
08:16	mpan	I hope you get my bigger point, though, which is that sometimes it's not very clean/nice to try to convert java verbatim
08:16	mpan	anyway have a nice day then
08:16	josteink	funny how clojure which makes so many things so short and conssce, makes a simple "this" into voodoo :P
08:16	josteink	mpan: scheme vebratim actually
08:17	mpan	now you've got me curious
08:17	mpan	what are you doing in scheme?
08:17	josteink	read SICP, chapter on constraint-based programming
08:17	Foxboron	SICP contains Scheme examples
08:17	mpan	ok thanks
08:17	mpan	I was just wondering specifically which feature of scheme you were using for this
08:18	josteink	I was using scheme's ability to reference anything
08:18	josteink	even things which doesnt exist yet, like one-self
08:18	mpan	we messed around with the language briefly for school but I didn't go very deeply into it
08:18	josteink	(define (test x) (define boo '(x boo)) boo)
08:18	josteink	is valid scheme code
08:19	mpan	that's quite interesting to see that done with arbitrary values
08:19	solussd	josteink: how about alambda (from on lisp)? from my repl: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7022
08:21	josteink	thanks but no thanks
08:21	josteink	I got what I need sorted out
08:21	solussd	k
09:10	gfredericks	are there yet good enough CLJS libraries that using jquery is not the best way to get stuff done?
09:11	abp	gfredericks, I like jayq and mpenet is working on it.
09:11	abp	$google jayq
09:11	lazybot	[ibdknox/jayq · GitHub] https://github.com/ibdknox/jayq
09:11	mpenet	jaq is fine, and you are likely to use jquery plugins anyway, so why not use it.
09:12	gfredericks	I think I considered that equivalent with jquery; what does it do that isn't a thin jquery wrapper?
09:12	mpenet	jayq*
09:12	mpenet	plays well with compilation mostly
09:12	mpenet	and add some sugar here and there
09:12	mpenet	but being thin is kind of the point I think.
09:12	abp	gfredericks, not much, but it's a neat wrapper and I consider jquerys event-handling stuff quite usable.
09:12	gfredericks	does it include an externs file?
09:13	mpenet	no but there is a link to externs in the readme
09:13	gfredericks	ah cool; k thanks
09:13	mpenet	angular is also an option but it all depends on what you need to do really
09:13	abp	mpenet, do you maintain jayq or are you just filling some gaps for your needs?
09:14	mpenet	I maintain it. And try to improve it where I can
09:14	abp	mpenet, cool, glad to hear that. Theres much of Chris work laying around.
09:14	mpenet	I have been fairly active on it lately, PR are also very welcomed!
09:16	gfredericks	man I load up the github page and the last commit message makes me think of monads
09:16	mpenet	abp: I am trying to get chris to create a github org around some of his cljs project, since he doesn't really have the time to work on them cuz of LT
09:16	abp	mpenet, yes I've seen that. Some of my work on my libraries will probably be around jayq, too. Something I need or feel a lack of a nice api will be pulled instantly when present. :)
09:16	mpenet	gfredericks: well some of the last commit are inspired by monads :p mostly to make some sugar, you are not really exposed to the dirty bits though, no need to fear!
09:17	gfredericks	I like monads actually, but they're fun to make fun of
09:17	mpenet	gfredericks: you might like the latest additions then: see do-> in macros.clj
09:17	gfredericks	mzero must be monoids though, right?
09:17	abp	mpenet, and he doesn't even got time to do that? Light Table must really be consuming his time like nothing before. Passion can be really forceful.
09:18	mpenet	gfredericks: it's not 100% "lawfull", it's stuff inspired from roylang mostly
09:18	mpenet	abp: he seems to be really busy
09:18	gfredericks	illegal monad usage?
09:18	mpenet	abp: and it's understandable imho
09:19	gfredericks	mpenet: why shouldn't the externs file be packaged with the lib?
09:19	abp	Hm, any thoughts on pulling parts of libraries out of clojures contrib libs? The new ones. Theres something in tools.namespace I would like to get standalone and work further on..
09:19	mpenet	gfredericks: no type system, some "monads" can be hairy fast
09:19	mpenet	gfredericks: see the tracingMonad from roy for instance
09:19	abp	mpenet, sure. Got a good cash-backing for burning his time on his ideas. I need that, too. ;)
09:20	mpenet	gfredericks: it's called a monad, looks like a monad, but isnt really one
09:20	mpenet	gfredericks: http://roy.brianmckenna.org/
09:20	abp	mpenet, looking forward to Typed Clojure on cljs? Eases your monads.
09:20	abp	Probably..
09:21	mpenet	abp: seems like an interesting project, yes
09:23	mpenet	gfredericks: about the externs, jayq can be used with a lot of different jquery versions
09:23	mpenet	gfredericks: and including all of them with jayq didn't seem to be the right thing to do
09:24	mpenet	gfredericks: I could be wrong though. Also showing where to get them also helps if you need one for underscore.js backbone.js etc since they are all listed at the url indicated in the readme
09:30	gfredericks	mpenet: would it be silly for somebody to post jquery jars to clojars?
09:30	mpenet	I think there is a project that does just that already, with jquery and other libraries
09:31	mpenet	gfredericks: not sure about externs tho
09:33	abp	Can I check which wich symbols in a given s-expression will evaluate to something via macros?
09:34	gfredericks	abp: wat?
09:35	abp	,(resolve 'foo)
09:35	clojurebot	nil
09:35	abp	,(resolve 'map)
09:35	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/map
09:35	abp	gfredericks, I think that's the answer
09:35	gfredericks	ah ha
09:37	abp	gfredericks, finding out which symbols get resolved to vars. I need that to further reduce my graph declarations. Will show you a gist soon if you like to see the mess. ;x
09:38	gfredericks	okay, so if I call (.method ...) on a jquery object, I am doing it wrong
09:38	gfredericks	I have used jayq in the past and did not realize that
09:39	mpenet	gfredericks: http://www.webjars.org/ for the mavenized js stuff
09:39	gfredericks	mpenet: thanks
09:40	gfredericks	mpenet: fascinating
09:41	gfredericks	woah; I can (:require [jayq.core :as $ :refer [$]]) can't I?
09:41	mpenet	gfredericks: never used if myself
09:41	mpenet	gfredericks: I am not sure it's a good idea to miz as and refer
09:41	mpenet	miy
09:41	mpenet	mix
09:41	mpenet	damn fingers
09:42	gfredericks	mpenet: do you know any reason why that would be? or you just haven't tried it?
09:42	mpenet	gfredericks: you probably want :refer if you are just after $, I almost always use [:as jq]
09:42	mpenet	gfredericks: never tried it
09:43	mpenet	gfredericks: but that would mean $/$ to get to jquery.fn.$, feels a bit odd
09:43	gfredericks	mpenet: I want both :D
09:43	gfredericks	mpenet: no I expect just $
09:43	mpenet	gfredericks: oh right
09:43	gfredericks	I just wrote ($/append ($ "body") ...)
09:43	gfredericks	which I think is slick
09:43	mpenet	gfredericks: try it, but I'd be surprised if it works
09:44	gfredericks	I expect this would work in clj-jvm at least
09:44	gfredericks	I know cljs is a bit rougher in the ns departement
09:44	gfredericks	well it compiled
09:44	abp	gfredericks, you're crazy. :D
09:45	gfredericks	well the code didn't run but I think it's cljsbuild being borky
09:47	gfredericks	consarnit
09:47	gfredericks	still emitting my namespaces in the wrong order
09:48	mdeboard	I need an "accumulator", a var that is defined globally as nil, but inside a function it is incremented by a value, e.g. https://gist.github.com/4154582 .. I know this is awful so please withhold vomit to the best of your ability.
09:49	mdeboard	I'm not really clear on how to locally bind accum and increment it as required
09:49	gfredericks	mdeboard: why do you need it to be a global? why not a local atom at least?
09:49	mdeboard	gfredericks: I don't need it to be
09:49	mdeboard	just a supposition on my part
09:49	mdeboard	probably wrong :)
09:50	abp	mdeboard, then why would you even mutate something?
09:51	gfredericks	mpenet: it seems to have compiled correctly; still not running how I expect but that's likely a separate issue
09:51	mdeboard	abp: Because I'm porting a piece of software from C# and I need to duplicate a particular component which does this. I want to get it duplicated for testability, so I can modify it later
09:52	gfredericks	using a local would have different behavior for sure, if you're at any point running this function from two different threads
09:52	mdeboard	The original C# is iterating through a hex "fingerprint" in an unusual way, and I'm trying to duplicate that exact behavior
09:52	abp	mdeboard, ok. But you probably want to rewrite it properly from the beginning. You could produce test-cases with the old implementation.
09:53	mdeboard	gfredericks: The original uses a thread-local, I think the reason I was making it global was because I poorly understood something I read
09:53	mdeboard	gfredericks: The thing being `(def ^:dynamic...)`
09:57	gfredericks	mdeboard: yeah I'd do (let [state (atom 0)] ...) at the very least
09:58	gfredericks	better to rework the algorithm to not be stateful
09:59	gfredericks	jayq.util/clj->js will be in cljs core soon, right?
09:59	gfredericks	or already is?
10:05	mdeboard	gfredericks: What's an algorithm? I'm a web developer
10:05	abp	gfredericks, in master, if I missed no cljs release. mpenet again: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/cd66e6b9e63ad5ef1896a9c7a117148beb04301d
10:05	gfredericks	mdeboard: you're translating C# that can't be _too_ true
10:09	gfredericks	is cljsbuild emitting stuff out of order a bug in the compiler itself? that was already fixed? so if I just use cljs HEAD then cljsbuild should work correctly?
10:10	abp	gfredericks, http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-282
10:11	gfredericks	abp: so...yes? :)
10:11	abp	gfredericks, we need master released now! But I think dnolen wants to finish source maps for cljs first, so on release we're all stunned and can't develop anything anymore.
10:11	gfredericks	ah ha; okeedokes
10:11	gfredericks	thanks
10:14	abp	gfredericks, that was a joke. But hopefully one that gets true.
10:16	mpenet	gfredericks: the next release will happen soon I hope, I think we are mostly waiting on source maps support to be complete
10:17	abp	gfredericks, https://gist.github.com/4142595 exk-calls in exg are my awful unbound symbol search macro.
10:19	abp	I don't know if I really want to include that. Can make debugging awful.
10:21	cemerick	mdeboard: that's what the PDF is for ;-)
10:21	mdeboard	oh yeah, hm
10:21	abp	mdeboard, or cemerick :x
10:21	cemerick	eh?
10:22	abp	he can just look everything up in you!
10:22	mdeboard	disturbing
10:22	cemerick	I've forgotten it all.
10:22	abp	oh, then don't care. write another clojure book to refresh. :P
10:23	cemerick	It's like having to read your own documentation or googling for a topic that brings up your own blog post, but way, way more disturbing.
10:23	mdeboard	Damn, I don't think I used my o'reilly account to buy the book
10:24	mdeboard	== no pdf
10:24	abp	mdeboard, ask them, they can be really gracious. Just for future paper-independence.
10:25	mdeboard	I may
10:25	cemerick	mdeboard: IIRC, if you bought just the dead-tree version, you can get the PDF for $5 or something.
10:25	abp	cemerick, yes, just like when people work on projects or something. External facilities guard all the knowledge.
10:25	clojure-newb	hey guys, in a compojure app I'm destructuring a path param with [id], how do I get a header 'foo' in the same mechanism without reverting to manipulations of 'request' or is that not possible ?
10:26	uvtc	cemerick: the best is when it takes until you're in the middle of reading it until you realize that you're the one who wrote it. :)
10:28	cemerick	uvtc: that always makes me feel like an idiot :-P
10:28	abp	clojure-newb, https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/wiki/Destructuring-Syntax see [x y :as r]
10:29	clojure-newb	abp: thx, I'll take a look
10:30	abp	cemerick, do you work with Clojure at your Snowtide? On PDFTextStream? Or is that a business secret? ;)
10:30	mdeboard	oh my god
10:31	cemerick	abp: PDFTextStream was largely built ~2003-2005, definitely predating Clojure.
10:31	mdeboard	I am in PDF hell right now
10:31	abp	cemerick, ah ok. Didn't know that.
10:31	mdeboard	I live in PDF hell
10:31	cemerick	That said, 99% of the code I've written since summer of 2008 is Clojure.
10:31	mdeboard	cemerick: How familiar are you with Callas, itext, etc.
10:32	cemerick	mdeboard: is this a book issue you're struggling with?
10:32	mdeboard	The C# code I'm porting right now is all about workig with PDFs
10:32	mdeboard	yes
10:32	mdeboard	we use itext to extract the word/paragraph/line data
10:32	cemerick	Callas? You mean Calais?
10:32	mdeboard	Sure
10:32	cemerick	Sure, I've tinkered with OpenCalais some.
10:32	mdeboard	Is it really Calais? LOL. I'm just basing the spelling off of how people pronounce it
10:33	abp	cemerick, wow. I just get to work with it at work after one and a half year of discussion.. Do you do contracting work or own projects?
10:33	mdeboard	And no, I mean Callas http://www.callassoftware.com/callas/doku.php/en
10:33	cemerick	mdeboard: FWIW, many, many PDFTextStream customers were prior users of iText and PDFBox. ;-)
10:33	mdeboard	We use a wide swath of open-source and proprietary libraries
10:33	mdeboard	babilen: indeed
10:34	cemerick	ah, no, I've never used Callas
10:34	mdeboard	vous avez caillou, calais
10:34	mdeboard	cemerick: The itext api is ... unusual
10:35	cemerick	I've never had much contact with preflight, prepress, pdf generation generally
10:35	mdeboard	cemerick: That's our bread and butter. We're not a content company, but we serve content from textbook publishers, and all they know is PDF.
10:36	cemerick	abp: I used to do some consulting around PDFTextStream through ~2008, but nothing since then. Mostly been building other (failed, so far) products since then, in addition to open source work, writing, etc.
10:37	cemerick	mdeboard: Sure. We have a few publishers that use PDFTextStream to improve accessibility in various ways, but I don't know the details of what they've built on top of it.
10:37	mdeboard	is there some combination of "doseq" and "while" out there
10:37	mdeboard	cemerick: Interesting, accessibility is our big push right now.
10:38	cemerick	mdeboard: BTW, confirmed that the PDF of 'Clojure Programming' can be had for $5; just log into your account, add the print version to "your products", and hit the 'upgrade' button.
10:38	mdeboard	yeah I'll have to do it at home, I assume I need some serial number from my copy of the book
10:39	TimMc	mdeboard: You could consume from a blocking queue. What exactly do you want?
10:39	cemerick	mdeboard: shockingly, you don't
10:40	mdeboard	TimMc: See lines 6-7 and 21
10:40	mdeboard	https://gist.github.com/1e317858ac546d133c03
10:43	mpenet	,(doseq [i [1 2 3 ] :while (< i 3)] (print i))
10:43	TimMc	THat actually doesn't look so bad.
10:43	clojurebot	12
10:43	TimMc	I found it fairly readable, although I don't know what the fingerprint stuff is about.
10:43	mdeboard	TimMc: Me either
10:44	TimMc	>_>
10:44	TimMc	Wait, nth can be ternary?
10:44	TimMc	(doc nth)
10:44	clojurebot	"([coll index] [coll index not-found]); Returns the value at the index. get returns nil if index out of bounds, nth throws an exception unless not-found is supplied. nth also works for strings, Java arrays, regex Matchers and Lists, and, in O(n) time, for sequences."
10:44	mdeboard	yeah
10:44	cemerick	mdeboard: oh, it can't be _that_ bad
10:45	mdeboard	cemerick: We're hiring, come see for yourself!
10:45	TimMc	haha
10:45	cemerick	ha ha ;-)
10:45	mdeboard	see what I did there
10:45	TimMc	That's an enticement if I ever heard one.
10:46	devn	emacs-live overrides C-v and M-v?
10:46	devn	gah
10:46	TimMc	mdeboard: Oh, I see -- you're porting code.
10:46	mdeboard	TimMc: Yes
10:46	mdeboard	from the original greek
10:47	TimMc	Frankly, the lexical shadowing bothers me more than the while/atom.
10:47	mdeboard	I actually like C# but we don't have any windows devs anymore
10:47	mdeboard	lexical shadowing?
10:48	mdeboard	I have no idea what that is
10:49	uvtc	mdeboard: a local in an inner scope shadowing one in an outer scope?
10:49	chronno	devn: yep, it changes some of the default bindings... take a peek into default-bindings.el
10:49	TimMc	"i" serves double duty in your fn (argument and local), as does "fingerprint" (fn name and local)
10:49	devinus	what other sql modelling libs are there out there other than Korma?
10:50	mdeboard	TimMc: Oh, right, definitely poor variable naming
10:50	nDuff	devinus: SQLAlchemy has its own declarative layer these days
10:50	devinus	nDuff: oh, i was referring to clojure specific
10:51	technomancy	devn: wat
10:51	chronno	devn: C-w was another surprise for me
10:51	devn	technomancy: yeah i couldn't believe it either
10:51	devn	chronno: yeah, wtf
10:52	nDuff	Oh -- sorry.
10:52	devn	chronno: yeah, i just went through and fixed those bindings, but man, that's pretty opinionated. Overriding default bindings is a user pack, not the default IMO
10:53	TimMc	mdeboard: doseq walks i over the indexes of fingerprint, and then the last line walks to that index+1 in fingerprint and pulls out the value. Why not just iterates over the contents of (concat (rest fingerprint) [(last fingerprint)])?
10:53	devn	same deal with this rainbow paren stuff and the replacement of fn with ƒ and so on
10:53	TimMc	devn: fn-replacement also screws with line length
10:53	Mr_Bond	ƒ is pretty cool
10:53	TimMc	It's good only for demos.
10:53	chronno	devn: yep, I guess it suits people not used to emacs but for more seasoned users its surprising (and annoying, the first time)
10:53	devinus	yeah the fn replacement stuff by default made me scratch my head
10:54	uvtc	devn: your views on emacs-live intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
10:55	technomancy	it also eschews basic packaging hygiene
10:55	mdeboard	TimMc: Good question. I'm kind of flailing here porting this algorithm over step-for-step, the code's hideous for sure.
10:57	TimMc	mdeboard: No need to call (seq (hex 12)) -- map will call seq for you/
10:57	mdeboard	I see
10:58	sundbp	hi - after exiting an emacs session using nrepl I get a lingering jvm process. any tips for how to avoid this?
11:00	sundbp	seems to spawn 3 subprocesses for the nrepl session, java -client, which spawns java -cp which in the end spawns the actual process doing the work. it's the last process that remain after exiting emacs
11:00	ucb	:D
11:01	abp	use eclipse
11:01	mmitchell	is it possible to have a dependency, which contains "resources" that you can "merge" into your project's resources directory?
11:01	sundbp	if there was a nice nrepl and debugger experience i would. using emacs with evil mode, use vim except for clojure work.
11:02	sundbp	emacs+evil gets things comfy enough that it's comfortable. even got my vi foot pedal hooked up :)
11:02	jweiss	trying to set up emacs/nrepl/autocomplete - something seems to be showing completions for the nrepl buffer even though auto-complete-mode is not on. i want the popup box for completion, not the separate window. anyone know what is doing that?
11:02	Mr_Bond	sundbp: we actually have a usb-pedal here :)
11:02	abp	sundbp, regarding java processes not being killed, I think that's a more fundamental problem than editor choice.
11:02	Mr_Bond	for our robotics projects :P
11:03	Mr_Bond	found it on dx
11:03	sundbp	abd: this is oracle downloaded jdk on ubuntu. not the openjdk one.
11:03	sundbp	Mr_Bond: mine is a 3 pedal usb device that was like 25usd or something similar. cheap enough worth the play :)
11:04	abp	sundbp, jdk version neither, more like clojure tooling ;x
11:04	cemerick	mmitchell: yes, though there's no packaging standard for such things. I've been packaging resource artifacts under a /_rsrc "package", which the ring-resources handler can be configured to look under.
11:09	sundbp	abp: yes, my bet is somewhere between emacs, nrepl.el and nrepl lies the answer, someone isn't properly killing their children
11:10	mpan	I see I picked an awkward time to enter the channel
11:15	thorwil	hmm. how to handle a dependency like the aloha editor. should i just add the whole thing to my git repo? or maybe just a bash script to fetch it and put it into place?
11:16	balint	hey,
11:16	balint	I would like to help out with some "entry-level" clojure OS projects
11:16	barfu	INFO chouser
11:17	balint	I say entry-level because I'm not -yet- an expert clojure programmer
11:17	balint	do you know any ones that need help?
11:17	balint	I checked the ones on http://clojurewerkz.org/ but they don't seem to have any open issues
11:19	duck1123	mmitchel_: You might want to check out webjars.org to see how they use resources directories to package js libs
11:19	uvtc	hi balint . I suppose it depends somewhat on what you're interested in.
11:20	balint	uvtc: i'm proficient with web-related stuff so noir/ring are good candidates
11:20	balint	but they seem to be somewhat abandoned
11:21	mdeboard	wut
11:21	uvtc	balint: I think the author of noir is working full-steam on LightTable at the moment.
11:21	mdeboard	Didn't raynes take over noir?
11:21	mdeboard	or am I thinking of korma
11:22	balint	storm is another fascinating one but at first glance it's too complex to grok
11:22	clgv	mdeboard: Raynes did some refactoring and pulled out a lib from noir that contains functions that are useful for non-noir projects as well
11:22	clojurebot	libraries is http://clojure.org/libraries
11:22	balint	uvtc: yes, I believe so, too
11:22	technomancy	compojure and ring are definitely not abandoned, but they're just small enough that there's not a lot of ongoing feature work on them
11:22	uvtc	I think Raynes was doing some work on https://github.com/noir-clojure/lib-noir .
11:23	balint	technomancy: ok, got it
11:23	uvtc	balint: you might poke arond http://clojure-doc.org/articles/ecosystem/libraries_directory.html for some ideas.
11:28	abp	I didn't know about:
11:28	balint	uvtc: great, thank you
11:28	abp	,(conj {:a 1} {:b 2})
11:28	clojurebot	{:b 2, :a 1}
11:28	reikalus1kka	is rlwrap essential for clojure development?
11:29	nDuff	not _essential_, no.
11:29	nDuff	if you're using emacs + nrepl/slime, it's completely unimportant
11:29	nDuff	but having some kind of a nice REPL environment is important.
11:30	uvtc	reikalus1kka: if you're using `lein repl`, I think it comes with everything you need.
11:30	reikalus1kka	okay. I'm not completely sure what I need or how I should set up my development environment
11:30	uvtc	reikalus1kka: http://clojure-doc.org/articles/tutorials/getting_started.html
11:30	reikalus1kka	I run the command lein repl and I got the message Using JLine for console I/O; install rlwrap for optimum experience.
11:31	nDuff	reikalus1kka: ...so, a lot of this depends on what kinds of keybindings/keystrokes you're accustomed to expecting.
11:31	nDuff	reikalus1kka: if everything you expect works (ctrl+a, ctrl+k, etc etc), then you're good.
11:31	nDuff	reikalus1kka: ...if you're going to be using something more capable than "lein repl" for most of your experimentation, then you're also good.
11:31	reikalus1kka	what should those keybindings do? xD
11:32	reikalus1kka	I plan to use sublime texeditor for writing code.
11:32	reikalus1kka	texteditor*
11:32	duck1123	reikalus1kka: You might want to look into updating your lein version. But having rlwrap doesn't really hurt much and is handy to have around
11:32	S11001001	reikalus1kka: the readline defaults are based on emacs defaults.
11:32	nDuff	reikalus1kka: does sublime have any kind of REPL integration or paredit support? I'm not saying not to use it, but you might be missing out on a lot.
11:32	S11001001	reikalus1kka: never used rlwrap in ~2yrs of professional clojuring, but I used emacs, so...
11:33	nDuff	reikalus1kka: ...a good LISP-aware editor can do some beautiful things.
11:33	S11001001	reikalus1kka: anyway, readline is wildly configurable with respect to keybindings.
11:33	reikalus1kka	I don't think sublime has it and I didn't know I need to use it. I never used emacs and I feel too dump to use it. and I have no previous experience in any lisp dialect
11:34	reikalus1kka	I'll check out readline
11:34	uvtc	reikalus1kka: "readline" means making your repl keyboard shortcuts act like a regular GNU/Linux bash terminal.
11:34	S11001001	reikalus1kka: (readline is the library that rlwrap uses)
11:35	uvtc	reikalus1kka: when just starting out, you can just use a terminal window along with your text editor.
11:35	nDuff	reikalus1kka: if you _do_ decide to try emacs at some point in the future, look at "Emacs Live" for an out-of-the-box configuration with everything you need to be productive (and videos/presentations showing what it does / how to use it).
11:37	abp	Any ideas on how to write macros with the semantics of fn? I need to preprocess the arguments to the function, but everything else is just fn.
11:37	reikalus1kka	okay. I'll put that behind my ear
11:37	reikalus1kka	I will be happy if I can just get started
11:37	S11001001	abp: expand to fn.
11:37	S11001001	abp: e.g. (fn [gensyms...] (let [fn-args use-gensyms...] body...))
11:39	abp	S11001001, sure, but I need to correctly take the arguments fn takes too, access the argument vector and pass it along. I already got a dumnded down version, but there is a meta-map to be supported etc.
11:40	S11001001	abp: if you want full fn, you need to parse enough of the destructuring language to get what you need without breaking stuff
11:40	S11001001	essentially that just means knowing what & does
11:40	abp	S11001001, Destructuring doesn't matter. :)
11:41	S11001001	well, there's nothing really special about writing fn variants otherwise.
11:41	abp	S11001001, so not quite all what fn does. Mostly meta/name/rgs, no meta/name/args, no meta/no name/args etc.
11:42	S11001001	you've got string?, symbol?, vector?, map?
11:45	bordatoue	hello
11:45	bordatoue	is it possible to create a local binding that maintains state in clojure.
11:48	nDuff	bordatoue: could you be a little more explicit?
11:49	nDuff	bordatoue: ...I mean, it's possible to update a thread-local dynamic var, or to modify root bindings, but more background would be helpful to understand the right thing for your use case.
11:49	bordatoue	i would like to have a procedure that returns another procedure modifying the binding of the first procedure
11:52	nDuff	bordatoue: ...well, you can only modify a thread-local binding that's actually valid while you're being called, so the context in which the the returned function is invoked matters.
11:53	nDuff	bordatoue: within that caveat, nothing's stopping you.
11:53	bordatoue	nDuff: for example http://hastebin.com/rimigojuke.cs
11:53	nDuff	...okay, I think I misunderstood your question, then, if that snippet has anything to do with it.
11:54	bordatoue	nDuff: how do i update the value bound in the outer procedure
11:55	nDuff	bordatoue: ...first, define a dynamic var outside of the outer procedure, bind it _in_ the outer procedure, and alter its binding in the inner procedure.
11:55	nDuff	that last piece is done with var-set
11:56	bordatoue	nDuff: http://hastebin.com/cavawaveke.cs
11:56	nDuff	...
11:56	bordatoue	nDuff: if i define a dynamic var then won't that be accesible to other procedures
11:57	nDuff	Huh?
11:57	jondavidjohn	Could I bother any clojure guru's in here to take a look at one of my first clojure attempts, and give it a critique? http://codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/19073/first-go-at-clojure-and-functional-programming-in-general
11:57	nDuff	bordatoue: That's not true at all. Where do you have that idea from?
11:57	duck1123	In your mind, whenever you find yourself thinking "I need to update..." replace it with "I need to return a new copy of..."
11:57	nDuff	bordatoue: ...unless you mean you want it to still be callable after the scope of the outer binding exits; that's true enough.
11:57	bordatoue	nDuff: i am trying to create an object model using procedures
11:58	nDuff	bordatoue: if that's the case, you might want to bind an atom.
11:58	nDuff	...actually, don't need a var at all at that point.
11:58	nDuff	...pass the atom around, and it can be eventually returned.
11:58	bordatoue	nDuff: okay so its an atom ,
12:00	bordatoue	nDuff: i need to read on atom , what does that mean futher decomposition is not allowed
12:00	nDuff	bordatoue: ...pardon?
12:01	bordatoue	why is it called atom if we can mutate it , is it like CAS operation
12:01	nDuff	bordatoue: yes, individual changes to the atom are serialized and atomic.
12:02	seangrove	If in my cljs I require a non-existant namespace, shouldn't it complain at compile time that it can't find it? My test code just happily goes along with it
12:03	seangrove	The compiled output from the cljsbuild test that I'm trying to build just has the goog-closure library with the test code appended - none of the required namespaces are included between them
12:04	seangrove	So when the test (ns example.hello.test (use [example.hello :only [work-you-bastard!]])), in the output.js it goog.provides("example.hello.test") right after the goog closure code, then goog.requires("example.hello"), which isn't in the output
12:04	seangrove	I can't figure out what I'm doing incorrectly
12:05	duck1123	seangrove: what level of compilation are you using? IIRC, it only complains at the higher levels
12:05	bordatoue	nDuff: can you recommend any way i could create a local fn that would maintain local state, i don't want idempotent fn calls
12:05	seangrove	whitespace
12:06	seangrove	For the :test build, it's supposed to add the source-path of all other builds, so that requires work properly. It works in the cljsbuild advanced project example, but the same process doesn't work on a different project
12:07	lucian	bordatoue: the simplest way around is to always pass in and return that state
12:07	lucian	bordatoue: the other might be an atom
12:07	nDuff	bordatoue: one way to do that is for your function to close over an atom. Really, though, trying to do that is indicative of trying to do things "the wrong way".
12:08	bordatoue	thanks lucian , nDuff .
12:09	bordatoue	nDuff: i can't understand your view on saying "the wrong way", say if you want some local state to be maintained then?
12:09	bordatoue	i am not talking about maintain a global state , just locally to a procedure
12:09	nDuff	bordatoue: keeping local state inside your functions is considered bad practice here.
12:10	bordatoue	nDuff: is that specific to clojure or functional programming in general
12:10	seangrove	jondavidjohn: Just syntax-wise, I believe that (map (fn [p] []) (range num_piles)) is equal to (map #{[]} (range num_piles))
12:11	nDuff	bordatoue: functional programming in general -- one of the Big Ideas is that state should be kept in well-understood places and modified only in well-understood (and observable) ways. Hiding little bits of state all over the place makes reasoning about your logic harder.
12:11	lucian	bordatoue: if you think about it, state local to a function is exactly the same as an argument
12:11	seangrove	,(map (fn [p] []) (range 4))
12:11	nDuff	bordatoue: ...Clojure provides exceptionally good tools for managing state in this way.
12:11	clojurebot	([] [] [] [])
12:11	seangrove	,(map #{[]} (range 4))
12:11	clojurebot	(nil nil nil nil)
12:11	seangrove	Nope, I was wrong, heh
12:11	jondavidjohn	yeah, I tried that, and it was complaining about wrong number of args
12:11	lucian	bordatoue: but the argument makes it much clearer about what's going on
12:11	jondavidjohn	passing hte p made it work
12:13	jondavidjohn	for speed considerations, should I make each "pile" a transient also?
12:13	jondavidjohn	,(map (fn [p] (transient []) (range 4))
12:13	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
12:13	jondavidjohn	,(map (fn [p] (transient []) (range 4)))
12:13	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$map>
12:13	jondavidjohn	,(map (fn [p] (transient [])) (range 4))
12:13	clojurebot	(#<TransientVector clojure.lang.PersistentVector$TransientVector@6fc01c8f> #<TransientVector clojure.lang.PersistentVector$TransientVector@2d93299a> #<TransientVector clojure.lang.PersistentVector$TransientVector@189054d6> #<TransientVector clojure.lang.PersistentVector$TransientVector@2bb1ba33>)
12:14	jondavidjohn	and will (persistent! parent) follow and "persistantize" each element if they are transients also?
12:14	Chousuke	no
12:15	Chousuke	don
12:15	Chousuke	don't optimise too much before you actually have a problem
12:15	jondavidjohn	right, just trying to get a best practice approach from the word go.
12:15	Chousuke	if you are making very large vectors, use transients for those.
12:16	Chousuke	and never let transients escape the function where you use them.
12:16	Chousuke	(you will know when to break that rule.)
12:16	jondavidjohn	I'm actually trying to make a comparison to a python c extension I wrote for this same algorithm, speed wise.
12:17	seangrove	duck1123: I think you're write about advanced mode
12:18	jondavidjohn	so If I wanted to transient all the "piles" I would maybe do something like (persistent! (map (fn [p] (persistent! p) parent)
12:19	Chousuke	you can't do that.
12:19	Chousuke	since map will not return a transient
12:19	Chousuke	you will have to loop explicitly.
12:19	Chousuke	but I don't think it's worth it.
12:19	jondavidjohn	so if I map a transient, will it return a persistent list?
12:19	Chousuke	you can't use map on transients.
12:19	jondavidjohn	or you simply can't map a transient
12:19	jondavidjohn	ok
12:20	Chousuke	in general, transients should be a local optimisation
12:20	Chousuke	first make your code work without them
12:20	Chousuke	then, if performance is an issue, add transients.
12:20	jondavidjohn	right, and it is currently
12:21	Chousuke	how large are your vectors?
12:21	jondavidjohn	since I'm trying to make it compete with my c implementation, every ms counts... I know in the practical world what you're saying makes sense, but as an experiment and learning...
12:21	jondavidjohn	it's going to be a library, so however large the user wants them to be.
12:22	jondavidjohn	a library of different types humanoid shuffles
12:22	Chousuke	no, I mean, how large do you expect them to be, relative to each other?
12:22	jondavidjohn	equal
12:22	Chousuke	will you have thousands of piles each containing thousands of items? :/
12:22	jondavidjohn	if that's what the user wants ;)
12:22	jondavidjohn	but realistically probably not
12:23	Chousuke	also, will this vector of piles be constructed all in one go?
12:23	Chousuke	transients are only useful if that's the case.
12:23	jondavidjohn	take a look at my full function here... http://codereview.stackexchange.com/q/19073/2776
12:27	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: your problem there is that you're not making the piles themselves persistent. also the concat operation looks suspicious
12:27	seangrove	Is the author of cljsbuild ever in here?
12:28	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: moving things like (count cards) outside the loop might help a slight bit too, especially if cards is not Counted
12:28	jondavidjohn	I was under the impression that I'm the parent vector of piles (vectors) a transient, but each individual pile was persistent
12:29	Chousuke	oh, right, I misread your code
12:29	jondavidjohn	would it be better to make each pile a transient and leave the parent as a persistent?
12:30	jondavidjohn	since I'm associng on the pile and not the parent
12:30	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: the problem with that is that you still have to update the parent with the new pile when you assoc to the transient
12:30	seangrove	This just doesn't seem to be true, locally: "Note that all of the :source-path entries from the :builds are added to the classpath, so the tests can :require ClojureScript namespaces from, e.g., the src-cljs directory"
12:31	jondavidjohn	ok
12:31	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: since assoc on a transient is not guaranteed to return the same object
12:31	jondavidjohn	so with the count, wrap the loop in a let and assign the card count once there, and use it within the loop?
12:32	jondavidjohn	and I'm using the concat to push new items on the front of the pile, the opposite of conj
12:32	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: btw you can replace that map thingy with (transient (vec (repeat num_piles [])
12:32	jondavidjohn	so (concat [(new item)] [pile])
12:32	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: you should use a list instead of a vector for the piles then
12:32	jondavidjohn	coool, that looks much nicer
12:33	Chousuke	(vec (concat foo bar)) is terribly slow
12:33	jondavidjohn	ok, are lists of things more common than vectors of things? and will that impact my usage of vectors elsewhere in the code?
12:34	Chousuke	lists and vectors are for different operations
12:34	Chousuke	lists have fast add to the front
12:34	Chousuke	vectors have fast random access and fast add to the tail
12:34	jondavidjohn	ok
12:34	jondavidjohn	can you cast a vector to a list and vice versa cheaply?
12:34	kaoD_	list also have fast (rest )
12:35	nDuff	jondavidjohn: not cheaply, no.
12:35	Chousuke	a vector becomes a list easily
12:35	Chousuke	but not vice versa
12:35	llasram	A vector becomes a seq easily
12:35	kaoD_	Chousuke: are you sure about that?
12:35	Chousuke	a seq is essentially a list in this case
12:35	mbcev	I thought a vector WAS a seq?
12:35	Chousuke	nah
12:35	kaoD_	I don't think a vector is easily converted to a list
12:35	Chousuke	vectors aren't seqs
12:35	jondavidjohn	I'd love it if this function could be somewhat collection agnostic
12:35	Chousuke	kaoD_: lists are just non-lazy seqs
12:35	nDuff	mbcev: vectors are seqable, but that's not the same as being a seq
12:36	kaoD_	Chousuke: then a vector CANNOT be converted easily into a list
12:36	kaoD_	right?
12:36	clojurebot	to be fair I dunno that I've ever had code out right rejected, it just sits in jira or assembla or where ever, or if I ask if there is any interest (before writing any code) I get told to go write alioth benchmarks
12:36	Chousuke	okay, well, it can be converted easily into a seq
12:36	Chousuke	but in this case, it doesn't matter if it's a list or a seq
12:36	kaoD_	yeah, sorry, I came late into the conversation
12:37	Chousuke	you still get fast conj to the front.
12:37	kaoD_	I'm currently reading jondavidjohn's question at CodeReview
12:37	kaoD_	cola_zero: but not fast rest, right?
12:37	kaoD_	oops, sorry
12:37	kaoD_	Chousuke:
12:37	Chousuke	kaoD_: nah, rest is fast too
12:37	kaoD_	sure? even for not consed seq'ed vectors?
12:38	jondavidjohn	good grief clojure has such an esoteric lingo it seems, at least for a noob
12:38	Chousuke	I'm pretty sure iterating a vector is fast
12:38	kaoD_	but not as fast as iterating over a list
12:38	kaoD_	(linearly)
12:38	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: seq is the main abstraction in clojure
12:38	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: it's basically a lazy list
12:38	mthvedt	johndavidjohn: is speed a goal?
12:38	Chousuke	or a generator
12:39	jondavidjohn	Speed and generality, which are probably competing interests
12:39	nDuff	jondavidjohn: what are you trying to do in this code?
12:39	kaoD_	iterating over a vector needs access to its buckets or whatever it's called
12:39	kaoD_	resting a list is easy, just strip the head
12:39	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: you can make these seqs out of many things, like vectors, maps, sets or lists, and there are many functions which operate on seqs
12:40	Chousuke	kaoD_: the seq implementation of vector has access to everything it needs
12:40	kaoD_	but it's slower than a list
12:40	jondavidjohn	so maybe turn whatever collection is passed into a seq. Is it wierd to take in one type and return a different type?
12:40	nDuff	jondavidjohn: ...the general abstraction is seqs; they just don't promise that many things other than reading will be fast.
12:40	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: no, if it makes sense to return a seq
12:41	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: in fact, if you can return a lazy seq, it's usually considered good to do so
12:41	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: since then your user can just call your function and take for example the first three things
12:41	mthvedt	i wonder if you can split one seq into several lazy seqs
12:41	Chousuke	and not pay the cost of getting the lest
12:41	Chousuke	rest
12:41	mthvedt	in the manner of a pile shuffle deal
12:41	Chousuke	;\|
12:41	jondavidjohn	so if a user passes me a list to shuffle, wouldn't they expect a list back? or is it common to pass back a lazySeq
12:41	nDuff	jondavidjohn: ...but what's the actual use case here? It's easier to provide good advice when dealing with specifics rather than generalities.
12:42	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: you would return a lazy seq in that case
12:42	devn	...emacs-live rebinds C-h
12:42	devn	wtf.
12:42	nDuff	jondavidjohn: passing back a lazy seq is common -- improves efficiency, if the consumer only needs part of the list.
12:42	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: since lazy seqs are for all purposes indistinguishable from actual lists
12:42	kaoD_	nDuff: jondavidjohn just wants to shuffle a "pile"
12:42	jondavidjohn	nDuff: I'm implementing a "pile shuffle"(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuffling#Pile_shuffle)
12:42	kaoD_	he wants to make a library, so he doesn't know if his users want it lazy or not
12:42	llasram	jondavidjohn: Most sequence functions just return seqs -- that's definitely the common idiom. The user can then turn that into whatever they want
12:43	jondavidjohn	cool
12:43	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: for example, in clojure it's perfectly fine to do the following (map #(Thread/sleep 1000) (range 100000000000))
12:43	Chousuke	it will take no time providing you actually don't try to get at the latter items
12:44	nDuff	Hmm. A shuffle algorithm isn't necessarily something that _can_ be lazy, then.
12:44	Chousuke	you can imagine Thread/sleep being some hideously expensive computation.
12:44	Chousuke	nDuff: I think there is a lazy shuffle algorithm in contrib somewhere
12:45	jondavidjohn	converting to and operating on a seq will take some rewriting? or is the api similar to a vector?
12:45	nDuff	jondavidjohn: vectors implement ISeq, so if you're operating on the vector using seq operations already, there's no difference.
12:45	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: you have most of the operations available to you except random access
12:46	kaoD_	jondavidjohn: be aware: you cannot random-access a sequence
12:46	kaoD_	because, well, it's SEQuential
12:46	jondavidjohn	Chousuke: cool, which I'm not using
12:46	Chousuke	vectors implement Seqable, not ISeq
12:46	Chousuke	you can call seq on a vector to get a sequence view to it, but it won't be a vector anymore
12:46	clojurebot	doseq is like for, but for side effects instead of values
12:46	jondavidjohn	how would I return a LazySeq once I'm done building the new seq?
12:47	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: you don't do that
12:47	Chousuke	if you were done building a seq, it would not be lazy :)
12:47	jondavidjohn	hah, right, so is this algorithm even lazyable?
12:47	jondavidjohn	So in this case I would just return the seq
12:47	Chousuke	I have no idea, but I suspect it isn't.
12:47	nDuff	jondavidjohn: I can think of variants of it that could be, though they'd get more expensive towards the end.
12:47	kaoD_	jondavidjohn: you just deal cards alternatively into "piles", right?
12:47	kaoD_	and then stack those piles
12:48	jondavidjohn	right
12:48	Frozenlock	Is there a way to use maven-plugins with leiningen?
12:48	kaoD_	it's mathematically solvable?
12:48	jondavidjohn	in order, there's probably a way to calculate the new order
12:48	kaoD_	then if you need speed
12:48	kaoD_	THAT is your solution
12:48	kaoD_	since vectors do support pretty fast random access
12:49	jondavidjohn	right
12:49	lucian	so a user could pass in a vector and receive back a seq
12:49	lucian	you could use the vector as a source as much as you want
12:49	mthvedt	johndavidjohn: i think this will work: partition by n for n piles, then return n sequences that map get 1..n
12:49	technomancy	Frozenlock: no. you can emit a pom with a <plugin> section though I think
12:49	kaoD_	you could even keep the vector interface and make it still vector-like with random access
12:49	mthvedt	partition and map are lazy
12:50	jondavidjohn	that would be some pretty hard math
12:50	kaoD_	jondavidjohn: I don't think so
12:50	jondavidjohn	dealing n cards into n piles (sequentially) and rejoining them
12:50	Chousuke	hm
12:50	Frozenlock	technomancy: thanks
12:50	kaoD_	it seems like easy math to me
12:51	mattmoss	n-th permutation
12:52	Chousuke	,(apply interleave (partition 3 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9]))
12:52	clojurebot	(1 4 7 2 5 ...)
12:52	jondavidjohn	so 10 cards using 3 piles end up [10 7 4 1 8 5 2 9 6 3]
12:53	Chousuke	,(iterate (comp apply interleave) (partition 3 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9])))
12:53	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$interleave>
12:53	Chousuke	hmm
12:53	jondavidjohn	to illustrate it better [10 7 4 1 - 8 5 2 - 9 6 3]
12:53	Chousuke	,(take 1 (iterate (comp apply interleave (partial parition 3)) [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9])))
12:53	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: parition in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
12:53	Chousuke	,(take 1 (iterate (comp apply interleave (partial partition 3)) [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9])))
12:53	clojurebot	([1 2 3 4 5 ...])
12:54	Chousuke	hm
12:54	kaoD_	jondavidjohn: it's something along the lines of (piles, size) -> [(n) -> (+ (* (/ size piles) (mod n piles)) (/ n piles))]
12:54	kaoD_	right?
12:54	clojurebot	to be fair I dunno that I've ever had code out right rejected, it just sits in jira or assembla or where ever, or if I ask if there is any interest (before writing any code) I get told to go write alioth benchmarks
12:54	kaoD_	fuck you clojurebot
12:55	jondavidjohn	haha
12:55	llasram	&(letfn [(pile [n cards] (->> (range n) (map #(take-nth n (drop % cards))) (apply concat)))] (pile 3 (range 10)))
12:55	lazybot	⇒ (0 3 6 9 1 4 7 2 5 8)
12:55	jondavidjohn	an answer on codereview suggests this " (->> (range n) (map #(take-nth n-piles (drop % cards))) (apply concat))"
12:55	llasram	Yeah, that was me
12:55	llasram	It got noisy here :-)
12:56	llasram	Oh, actually:
12:56	jondavidjohn	llasram: that works but it's reversed
12:57	kaoD_	&(/ 3 21)
12:57	lazybot	⇒ 1/7
12:57	llasram	Oh, easy enough
12:57	kaoD_	&(div 3 21)
12:57	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: div in this context
12:57	kaoD_	what is the integer division operation?
12:57	jondavidjohn	to illustrate it better [10 7 4 1 - 8 5 2 - 9 6 3]
12:57	Chousuke	(I think I have an onelinesr for this now
12:57	jondavidjohn	would be the result I'm looking for
12:57	kaoD_	oooh, you want it REVERSED
12:58	kaoD_	I get it now
12:58	jondavidjohn	Clojure is some serious ninja wizardry...
12:58	kaoD_	(since you're dealing it backwards)
12:58	jondavidjohn	dealing form the top of the original deck, but the first card dealt to a pile ends up the last card in the pile
12:58	Chousuke	,(take 1 (iterate (comp (partial apply interleave) (partial partition-all 3)) [1 2 3 4 5 6])
12:58	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
12:58	Chousuke	,(take 1 (iterate (comp (partial apply interleave) (partial partition-all 3)) [1 2 3 4 5 6]))
12:58	clojurebot	([1 2 3 4 5 ...])
12:58	kaoD_	&(quot 3 21)
12:58	lazybot	⇒ 0
12:58	Chousuke	hm, still some error there
13:00	llasram	&(letfn [(pile [n cards] (->> (range n) (mapcat #(take-nth n (drop % cards))) (reduce conj nil)))] (pile 3 (range 10)))
13:00	lazybot	⇒ (8 5 2 7 4 1 9 6 3 0)
13:00	jondavidjohn	haha, almost, can you deal left to right, instead of right to left?
13:00	jondavidjohn	since we're joining the piles left to right
13:00	jondavidjohn	?
13:00	mattmoss	&(separate (fn [_] (< (rand) 0.5)) (range 10))
13:00	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: separate in this context
13:01	jondavidjohn	I'm sorry, but this is freaking ludicris that you can do that on one line...
13:01	mattmoss	&(filter (fn [_] (< (rand) 0.5)) (range 10))
13:01	lazybot	⇒ (0 4 7 9)
13:01	mattmoss	&(filter (fn [_] (< (rand) 0.5)) (range 10))
13:01	lazybot	⇒ (0 3 4 6 7)
13:01	llasram	&(letfn [(pile [n cards] (->> (range n) (mapcat #(take-nth n (drop % cards))) reverse))] (pile 3 (range 10)))
13:01	lazybot	⇒ (8 5 2 7 4 1 9 6 3 0)
13:01	Chousuke	,(take 5 (iterate (comp (partial apply interleave) (partial partition-all 3)) [1 2 3 4 5 6]))
13:01	clojurebot	([1 2 3 4 5 ...] (1 4 2 5 3 ...) (1 5 4 3 2 ...) (1 3 5 2 4 ...) (1 2 3 4 5 ...))
13:02	kaoD_	Chousuke: you can do these tests in private-msgs
13:02	kaoD_	(I'm doing it there so it doesn't get noisy)
13:02	Chousuke	I was doing most of the work in tryclojure actually
13:02	jondavidjohn	or... you know in an actual repl...
13:02	llasram	Haha
13:02	Chousuke	that algorithm is probably horrendously slow for larger decks though
13:03	jondavidjohn	Chousuke: yours or llasram's?
13:03	Chousuke	mine
13:03	Chousuke	it's too lazy
13:04	Chousuke	so if you have lots of piles and large decks you get loads of thunks
13:04	Chousuke	and at some point it will blow the stack
13:04	llasram	&(letfn [(pile [n cards] (let [cards (reverse cards)] (->> (range n) (mapcat #(take-nth n (drop % cards))))))] (pile 3 (range 1 11)))
13:04	lazybot	⇒ (10 7 4 1 9 6 3 8 5 2)
13:05	jondavidjohn	llasram: so close [10 7 4 1 8 5 2 9 6 3]
13:06	llasram	jondavidjohn: Huh. Why?
13:06	jondavidjohn	the last two piles are reversed
13:06	llasram	Oh, I see
13:06	jondavidjohn	But the problem is this is very cool, but I can't begin to understand what is happening on that line...
13:09	llasram	Ok, reverse the pile selection order, and swap the reversal back to the end:
13:09	llasram	&(letfn [(pile [n cards] (->> (range (dec n) -1 -1) (mapcat #(take-nth n (drop % cards))) reverse))] (pile 3 (range 1 11)))
13:09	lazybot	⇒ (10 7 4 1 8 5 2 9 6 3)
13:11	jondavidjohn	feels like magic...
13:11	llasram	jondavidjohn: It mostly just takes getting familiar with the standard library sequence functions. They are insanely powerful, and because they each return something that the others can consume are easily composable
13:12	Chousuke	functional programming with lazy sequences often does look like magic but it's just unfamiliarity :P
13:12	lucian	jondavidjohn: it's useful to take each bit and give it inputs, see what happens
13:12	Chousuke	also you should understand that these algorithms are not efficient at all. :/
13:12	lucian	jondavidjohn: it's partly like syntax in most languages
13:13	Chousuke	and yeah, looking at what happens at each step is often useful
13:13	jondavidjohn	yeah, going to take me a bit to digest this, but thanks for all the help and info
13:13	lucian	i don't fully understand that expression just by glancing either
13:13	llasram	Chousuke: I'm pretty sure my function is O(n). The constant multiplier is larger an optimally efficient implementation, but I thinkn the allgo is fine
13:13	Chousuke	jondavidjohn: the point about laziness is that you can work with your data as if you always did the entire operation on the data structure
13:14	jondavidjohn	right, evaluate as needed
13:15	Chousuke	it also means you can work with infinite data structures
13:15	jondavidjohn	back to the day job for me (PHP :p), thanks again for everything..
13:17	Chousuke	And even with all this, clojure's flavour of functional programming is significantly less mind-bending than eg. haskell's :P
13:17	Chousuke	Clojure can do everything haskell does, for the most part, but haskell people actually use that crazy stuff.
13:17	seangrove	I'll have to give up on testing cljs code for now, I've been defeated
13:19	dnolen	this is a pretty awesome CLJS series of tutorials - including how to contribute back to the compiler! http://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs
13:20	SegFaultAX	Is cljs/lua dead?
13:25	dnolen	SegFaultAX: raphael amiard is not actively working on it from what I can tell, but it seems like it's in decent spot for someone else to pick it up if so inclined.
13:26	kaoD_	jondavidjohn: I still think it's mathematically solvable
13:26	kaoD_	see this
13:26	kaoD_	&(map #(let [per-pile (quot 9 3)] (+ 1 (* (mod (- per-pile 1 %) per-pile) per-pile) (quot % per-pile))) (range 9))
13:26	lazybot	⇒ (7 4 1 8 5 2 9 6 3)
13:27	kaoD_	it utterly fails with (not= (mod elements piles) 0)
13:27	kaoD_	but hey, it's not bad for starters :P
13:35	uvtc	I was asking about Clojure + Android on the ML. I wonder, has there been any movement on having Clojurescript transpile Clojure to Java?
13:35	mdeboard	wut
13:35	technomancy	you mean compile?
13:36	uvtc	Er, right. Compile Clojure ==> Java.
13:37	S11001001	uvtc: you don't need that; you can convert jvm bytecode to dalvik bytecode. That's what the scala toolchain does.
13:37	technomancy	uvtc: you can't represent locals-clearing in Java
13:38	uvtc	S11001001: I should probably ask about these details on clojure-android...
13:38	uvtc	S11001001: Thanks.
13:39	uvtc	technomancy: What is "locals-clearing"?
13:40	technomancy	uvtc: without locals-clearing (or TCO) you get memory leaks when using lazy seqs since keeping them in a local prevents them from being GC'd
13:41	uvtc	technomancy: ok, related to GC. Thank you.
13:41	technomancy	locals-clearing emits bytecode to avoid references to unused locals once they're not used anymore
13:41	technomancy	but the bytecode it emits can't be generated from javac
13:41	uvtc	technomancy: oh, interesting.
13:42	tomoj	huh, I thought it was just "var = null"
13:43	TimMc	technomancy: Wait, javac doesn't do locals-clearing? o.o
13:43	technomancy	tomoj: yes, but how do you handle it if the last reference is in a call to another method?
13:43	technomancy	tomoj: you have to null it after it's placed on the stack frame for the call
13:44	mthvedt	TimMc: javac isn't smart enough to figure out if a reference isn't going to be used
13:44	TimMc	Shouldn't it be?
13:45	mthvedt	the general case is a tough problem
13:45	technomancy	not with the granularity needed to deal with laziness
13:46	jonasac	just got reply from the modulecounts.com maintainer today, a couple of weeks ago i suggested he added clojars, and he did :)
13:46	TimMc	technomancy: Apparently this is how you do it manually in Java: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Util.java#L146
13:47	TimMc	As seen here: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L521
13:47	tomoj	ah, I wondered what that was supposed to do
13:47	TimMc	Someone in the channel explained it to me a while back. (Possibly technomancy!)
13:47	technomancy	TimMc: haha; gross
13:47	technomancy	wasn't me =)
13:48	technomancy	aw man, that indentation... ugh
13:51	hcumberdale	Hi ;)
13:51	TimMc	They do it that way to make you cringe.
13:51	hcumberdale	How to add custom jars to my project?
13:51	mthvedt	i don't understand how that code would work
13:51	hcumberdale	they are not in any maven2 repo
13:52	S11001001	mthvedt: order of arg evaluation is guaranteed in java
13:52	uvtc	technomancy: First shalt thou indent the code. Then shalt thou indent 4 spaces --- no more, no less. Four shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Five is right out.
13:53	technomancy	uvtc: haha; nice
13:53	S11001001	mthvedt: like common lisp, unlike r5rs scheme
13:53	technomancy	hcumberdale: first step is to get them into a repository
13:53	hcumberdale	technomancy is it not possible to work with an own lib folder
13:54	hcumberdale	like having a "lib/own.jar" dependendy in project.clj?
13:54	technomancy	hcumberdale: there is no good way to do it
13:54	technomancy	there are some bad ways
13:54	hcumberdale	is there any lein2 functionality to add files to the local m2 repo?
13:54	mthvedt	S11001001: so the point is to pass the ref to o to countfrom while clearing it on the stack?
13:55	S11001001	mthvedt: it's not a ref, it's whatever o is. Java is a pass-by-value language; it is merely that so many of those values are references.
13:55	the-kenny	hcumberdale: lein install?
13:56	mthvedt	S11001001: right, i meant ref in the java sense
13:56	hcumberdale	the-kenny lein install third_party_lib.jar ?
13:56	S11001001	mthvedt: then yes.
13:56	S11001001	welcome to wonderful world of side-effects and operation ordering
13:56	the-kenny	Oh, a random jar. Don't think so. I use maven for that
13:56	technomancy	hcumberdale: a better question might be who is asking you to use a jar without putting it in a repository? because they need to get their act together.
13:56	technomancy	there's a lein-localrepo plugin to do that
13:57	technomancy	but it's addressing the symptoms, not the actual problem
13:57	mthvedt	is there a good way to use reify that supports equality among instances of that reified class
13:57	hcumberdale	technomancy it is a licensed third party module
13:57	hcumberdale	handed out as .jar
13:57	hcumberdale	to use it in java projects within ant files
13:57	hcumberdale	or dirty maven hacks
13:58	hcumberdale	so I just want to have a third-party-libs folder in my lein2 project
13:58	hcumberdale	to move the jar there
13:58	technomancy	you can use localrepo for that
13:58	technomancy	but you should file a bug report too
13:58	S11001001	hcumberdale: when we dealt with that, we wrote a pom and added it to our maven repo.
13:59	hcumberdale	technomancy a bug report? why?
13:59	hcumberdale	S11001001 then you need an own maven repo
13:59	technomancy	because distributing a jar by hand is crazy
13:59	mthvedt	like if i have (defn myfn [arg] (reify MyClass …)), is there a succinct way to have (= (myfn "foo") (myfn "foo"))
13:59	hcumberdale	technomancy, that's how big companies like HP work ;)
14:00	S11001001	mthvedt: = falls back on Object.equals when it doesn't know what to do
14:00	S11001001	mthvedt: this sucks but is better than nothing
14:00	technomancy	hcumberdale: you mean poorly? =)
14:01	hcumberdale	technomancy they work just like they work. ;)
14:03	technomancy	it's lay
14:03	technomancy	lazy
14:03	abp	A few minutes ago I thought Java and it's ecosystem are only acceptable for large companies which can afford that waste of time. ;x
14:03	hcumberdale	technomancy what's a better way for them to do it?
14:03	abp	But they waste even more time. :D
14:03	mthvedt	S11001001: i'm having trouble coming up with a non-hideous implementation of equals that works for this
14:03	hcumberdale	Handing it out with a own maven server?
14:03	hcumberdale	-a +an
14:04	technomancy	hcumberdale: right
14:04	Frozenlock	technomancy: I'm trying to write a Lein plugin. It need to run after a uberjar. Any suggestion on which function I should hook myself?
14:04	technomancy	it can just be a pile of static files on disk behind http basic auth
14:04	technomancy	no excuses
14:04	technomancy	Frozenlock: if it needs to run after every uberjar then just hook the uberjar task function itself
14:05	technomancy	otherwise write an alias that composes the two
14:05	Frozenlock	Great, thank you very much!
14:05	technomancy	no problem
14:05	xumingmingv	,(loop [input "help"]
14:05	xumingmingv	(println "xxx")
14:05	xumingmingv	(print "=> ")
14:05	xumingmingv	(recur (read-line)))
14:05	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
14:07	xumingmingv	why the result of these lines of code will be "=> xxxx" rather than "xxxx =>"?
14:07	devn	cemerick: you around by any chance?
14:07	cemerick	devn: depends :-P
14:08	technomancy	xumingmingv: need to flush stdout
14:08	devn	haha, i think im missing something w/r/t using friend
14:08	devn	let me gist something for you to peek at
14:09	xumingmingv	(loop [input "help"]
14:09	xumingmingv	(println "xxx")
14:09	xumingmingv	(flush)
14:10	xumingmingv	(print "=> ")
14:10	xumingmingv	(recur (read-line)))
14:10	xumingmingv	technomancy: like this?
14:12	technomancy	xumingmingv: please don't paste code into the channel
14:12	technomancy	you need to flush after print
14:13	devn	cemerick: i gisted it, but i just discovered i'm missing ring.middleware.reload, and that seems like a likely culprit, investigating that avenue first
14:13	xumingmingv	technomancy: ah, thanks!
14:14	cemerick	devn: friend definitely doesn't require the reload middleware
14:14	cemerick	it does require params, keyword-params, and whatever others are mentioned in the readme
14:15	hcumberdale	cemerick friend is awesome
14:15	cemerick	The compojure handlers/api or handlers/site über-middlewares are both well-suited.
14:15	cemerick	hcumberdale: :-)
14:21	hcumberdale	lein localrepo does not work
14:22	devn	ring.middleware.reload -- where have you gone?
14:22	devn	ah, ring-devel
14:28	mudge	anybody here use seesaw? When I try to compile my code with lein jar, compiling a file hangs
14:30	antares_	mudge: it means you have a top-level code that blocks (like starts a server of some kind)
14:31	mudge	antares_: thanks, but all I put in my code that hangs it is this: (:use seesaw.core)
14:31	mudge	antares_: so mabe on startup seesaw is doing something on the network and so hanging
14:31	antares_	mudge: you can use VisualVM to create a thread dump
14:36	mudge	antares_: i don't really want to download and install that software
14:37	antares_	mudge: why?
14:37	antares_	mudge: it's one of the most useful tools in the JVM ecosystem
14:38	technomancy	mudge: vaguely recall a bug like that caused by j18n which seesaw pulls in
14:39	technomancy	you can get a thread dump without visualvm; I think swank supports it too
14:43	mudge	antares_: good to know, I just have enough software to lean how to use at the moment, but I will probably circle around to VisualVM sometime
14:43	hcumberdale	how can I (:require a java class?
14:44	mudge	technomancy: thanks
14:44	hcumberdale	(:require [my.java.class :as abc]) does not work
14:44	borkdude	what's the deal with new similarly looking statically typed imperative languages for the JVM? http://confluence.jetbrains.net/display/Kotlin/Basic+syntax+walk-through
14:44	hcumberdale	(:import my.java.class) works, but no alias
14:44	mdeboard	Anyone know the closest Java analog to C#'s MemoryStream class?
14:45	p_l	mdeboard: SomethingBuffer
14:48	borkdude	Has this been mentioned before here? http://www.infoq.com/research/next-jvm-language
14:48	Frozenlock	I have some difficulties adding a hook to leiningen in a plugin... could someone take a look at this small test and tell me if I have done something horribly wrong? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7033
14:49	mdeboard	p_l: I see
14:50	antares_	Monger 1.4 is released: http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2012/11/27/monger-1-dot-4-0-is-released/
14:51	hcumberdale	is it possible to include a java class with alias in clojure?
14:52	antares_	hcumberdale: no
14:54	mudge	well my class is compiling, it just takes about 2 mintues to compile --- which is so long. Without (:use seesaw.core) compilation is fast
14:55	kevin5672	How do I go about finding the source of a lein error like this: "Error: Could not find or load main class"
14:55	seangrove	Does clojurescript not come with a clj->js? I'm almost certain I've gotten errors saying it does
14:58	Raynes	seangrove: IIRC it will as of the next release.
14:58	seangrove	Ah, ok, that's fine then, just wanted to make sure I wasn't going mad.
15:07	lynaghk	ping: dnolen, hugod: I just finished up some gnarly record-stuff for doing matching with core.logic: https://gist.github.com/4004131#file_rules.clj
15:08	lynaghk	dnolen, hugod: in case you guys are interested. Basically the problem I needed to solve was to unify against a subset of the keys of records of a certain type. The solution I found was to make a custom record that behaves like a partial-map, but additionally checks the type of the map it is being unified against.
15:09	TimMc	hcumberdale, antares_: Yes, you can alias a class.
15:10	TimMc	hcumberdale: https://github.com/baznex/imports/blob/master/src/org/baznex/imports.clj#L64
15:11	dnolen	lynaghk: hmm, looks like your just looking for a specific value for a key in the other map?
15:11	hugod	lynaghk: interesting! I was considering writing something to allow specification of missing keys in sub-maps (which can't be done now if the sub-map doesn't actually exist)
15:12	lynaghk	dnolen: yes, that and the type of the other map
15:12	dnolen	lynaghk: by type do you mean record?
15:12	dnolen	type of the other record?
15:12	lynaghk	dnolen: yep.
15:13	dnolen	lynaghk: I guess that hard to express as two more constraints instead of doing it in the unification?
15:14	antares_	this series of tutorials on ClojureScript is seriously awesome: https://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs/tree/master/doc
15:14	dnolen	antares_: very awesome
15:14	lynaghk	dnolen: yes, I think it'd be tricky to do with lvars (though I could be wrong)
15:16	lynaghk	dnolen: in particular because you need an lvar for the whole record (so you can constrain its type) and lvars that unify with certain keys inside of that record.
15:16	dnolen	lynaghk: yeah, in anycase, very cool that you were able to solve your problem.
15:17	lynaghk	dnolen: yeah, it's a long time in coming, so I'm jazzed. Once the constraint map stuff lands I'll be set.
15:18	mudge	antares_, technomancy: I did a thread dump and I see that my clojure file with (:use seesaw.core) is compiling so slow because the threads are reading files it looks like
15:18	dnolen	lynaghk: yep, if you can find a second to do the unify bit, I can work on the constraint map stuff next weekend and next week during my travels
15:19	lynaghk	dnolen: unify bit?
15:19	dnolen	lynaghk: or I tackle it as well - just allow the multi-arg unify w/ constraint map last.
15:19	dnolen	unifier I mean of course
15:20	lynaghk	dnolen: ohhh
15:21	lynaghk	dnolen: I did that a few days ago. I guess Github didn't tell you about it: https://gist.github.com/4116442
15:21	dnolen	lynaghk: sweet!
15:21	hugod	dnolen, lynaghk: I still haven't fully grokked how/where unifier is meant to be used
15:22	dnolen	hugod: it's just an api so users don't have to dig into run if they don't want to.
15:22	hugod	ah, ok
15:23	hcumberdale	do I need with-open when I use with-in-str?
15:24	hugod	dnolen: am I right in thinking I'll need to do something similar to lynaghk to unify both {:a {:b 1}} and {} with {:a {:c ::not-found}}?
15:24	devn	or rather, why it doesn't print in the nrepl buffer in emacs
15:27	dnolen	hugod: not sure if that applies to what lynaghk is doing - you need to express some kind of `or` there. or I could ponder some kind of (optional ...) wrapper which w/ will unify w/ ::not-found
15:28	hugod	dnolen: ok - I really want to say that the path [:a :b] in the map is not set, rather than matching the structure
15:29	hugod	[:a :c] that is
15:29	dnolen	hugod: sounds like something higher level that can be built on what I described, no?
15:31	hcumberdale	how can I convert StringReader to InputStream ?
15:32	hugod	dnolen: I guess so - unifiying with ::not-found works, and a wrapper for that would be nice not to have to rely on ::not-found directly. I'm not sure how to do the 'or' bit yet.
15:33	antares_	mudge: that's very strange. I don't even thing seesaw is a large library. Please ask on the mailing list?
15:33	dnolen	hugod: pondering it some more this could be done w/ path-constraint ... something like (not-setc x [:a :c])
15:33	dnolen	hugod: I'm not going to add that by I'll try to cook up a gist later that shows how this can be done.
15:34	mudge	antares_: thanks, I posted on the mailing list a moment ago: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/seesaw-clj/OoweKH4AiAY
15:34	hcumberdale	>> (ByteArrayInputStream. (.getBytes s)) is this really the best way to do this?
15:34	hugod	dnolen: thanks!
15:38	jonasen	dnolen: another useful feature for the unifier would be segments: (unify [1 ??x 5] [1 2 3 4 5]) would succeed and bind ??x to (2 3 4). Have you discussed such a feature at all?
15:41	dnolen	jonasen: hmm haven't really considered that - it's also not very clear how that should work - has deep repercussions for unification of anything sequential.
15:42	dnolen	jonasen: or maybe not ... haven't thought about it at all.
15:44	jonasen	dnolen: have you seen http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/gjs/6.945/psets/ps05/ps.txt
15:44	mudge	antares_: my seesaw directory in classes is 8.5M, that seems large to me
15:44	jonasen	dnolen: it's on pattern matching, but unificatition is kind of the same thing. search for `??` for some examples
15:44	mudge	ls
15:44	lazybot	boot lost+found proc src srv
15:47	dnolen	jonasen: it's worth investigating - would consider it if someone else worked it out.
15:49	jonasen	dnolen: this old gist of mine (https://gist.github.com/2236019) was an attempt to do something like ??x with core.logic but I didn't get very far
15:50	dnolen	jonasen: yeah wouldn't want to do that as a goal - to much hassle - you'd want to change unification.
15:51	cemerick	hcumberdale: yes, though keep an eye on what encoding you're using to get bytes from the string
15:52	dnolen	jonasen: you want a new kind of logic var - if encountered during unification of sequential type a different path would be taken.
15:52	hcumberdale	cemerick, it 'should' be UTF-8
15:53	cemerick	hcumberdale: well, if you don't specify, it'll use your platform default, which almost certainly won't be utf-8 everywhere
15:53	hcumberdale	but I get the "Content is not allowd in prolog" when I try to xml.zip it
15:53	hcumberdale	seems to be a encoding issue
15:54	cemerick	"xml.zip it"?
15:54	hcumberdale	(xml-> (zip-str string) :element text)
15:55	cemerick	oh, from zip-filter
15:55	hcumberdale	zip-str from http://nakkaya.com/2009/12/07/zipping-xml-with-clojure/
15:55	jamii	With the latest emacs-live, I get 'Symbol's value as variable is void: feature' on startup
15:55	jamii	Not sure how to begin debugging it...
15:58	mudge	Is it normal for leiningen to put the class files of a dependancy into target/classes ?
15:58	wytukasuaarit	hcumberdale, you taste like poo.
15:59	cemerick	hcumberdale: that's pretty old; better to use the newer data.xml and data.zip libraries.
16:01	jamii	Starts breaking between release/1.0-BETA-4 and release/1.0-BETA-5
16:07	tomoj	suppose @x always waits for 1s and then returns 42. so (do @x @x) waits for 2s and returns 42
16:07	tomoj	if x implements IPending, should realized? always return false?
16:08	tomoj	or should x not implement IPending?
16:16	antares_	tomoj: I'd say it should keep track of whether 1 second passed. Just like core things that can be dereferenced, they cache their results.
16:16	tomoj	what you mean is that my x should not implement IDeref?
16:17	tomoj	I don't think I can accept changing x to immediately deref to its result after the first time
16:17	tomoj	but the result will indeed be cached
16:17	tomoj	you'll just still get the 1s delay
16:21	TimMc	tomoj: Sounds like a promise.
16:21	tomoj	a clojure.core/promise?
16:21	TimMc	Yes.
16:22	tomoj	no, once a clojure.core/promise is delivered a result, deref'ing will always immediately return that result
16:24	TimMc	Sorry, I mean it sounds like you that's what you want.
16:24	tomoj	no, I definitely don't want that
16:24	tomoj	cljque.promises/promise is closer to what I want but still wrong
16:25	TimMc	Oh, right. And not clojure.core/delay?
16:26	tomoj	indeed, again definitely not because that's only synchronous, but also because (delay (Thread/sleep 1000) 42) only sleeps once
16:27	TimMc	I didn't realize that was desied behavior.
16:27	tomoj	I guess the question is, must (false? (realized? x)) mean "@x has never returned a value for anyone"?
16:29	tomoj	I just want (true? (realized? x)) to mean "if you do @x now, you'll get a value immediately" and (false? (realized? x)) to mean "if you do @x now, you'll have to wait for a value"
16:32	tomoj	hmm, shit
16:40	mudge	can a gen-classed .class file use code written in a .clj file? or does code it use also have to be in a .class file?
16:41	nDuff	mudge: gen-classed methods just call through to clojure.lang.RT
16:41	mudge	nDuff: what does that mean?
16:41	nDuff	mudge: so they're completely able to see non-AOT'd code.
16:42	mudge	nDuff: thanks, good to know.
16:42	nDuff	mudge: (it also means they're not particularly efficient)
16:43	mudge	nDuff: you mean the .class files will be more efficent than the .clj?
16:43	mudge	nDuff: is that what you are saying?
16:43	nDuff	No.
16:43	nDuff	I mean that gen-class just builds wrappers.
16:43	nDuff	...those wrappers call other code, which will in turn be just as efficient as they would have been were they not called by gen-class
16:44	nDuff	but, of course, the wrapper itself is a single function call's worth of overhead
16:45	mudge	nDuff: okay. But we need gen-class in order to create a .class file that Java can see right? So there's no way around it.
16:45	nDuff	mudge: well, that depends.
16:47	nDuff	mudge: ...I mean, if you're writing your own, arbitrary Java code, it can ask the Clojure runtime to give it anything you want, with no wrapper involved. If you're passing a callback to Java code, you can give it something from reify or proxy.
16:47	mudge	nDuff: I'm building a module for a Java Web Start application that uses Swing, so I'm planning to use seesaw which is a nice library using Swing underneath. However when I aot the code the seesaw library gets much larger,
16:47	mudge	nDuff: I'm buidling somethign that Java code will call --- and I have no control over the Java code which will use my stuff.
16:48	nDuff	mudge: it's an available option to only build your gen-class wrappers without AOT'ing everything.
16:48	nDuff	mudge: Okay -- if the entry point is from Java code you don't control, and there's no alternate calling convention that lets you invoke it without a pre-named class, then it sounds like you do have a use case for gen-class.
16:49	mudge	nDuff: cool, do you know of any downsides to that? Because seesaw is like 100kb in .clj and like 8mb when I aot it.
16:49	nDuff	Only real downside is that startup is slower.
16:49	mudge	nDuff: downside to making my gen-class file call .clj files instead of .class files
16:49	nDuff	yup.
16:50	mudge	nDuff: okay. startup of what?
16:50	nDuff	those namespaces need to be compiled from clojure when they're loaded if they aren't compiled ahead of time
16:50	nDuff	so -- startup of whatever's loading the namespaces. :)
16:50	mudge	nDuff: i see, thanks
16:52	mudge	nDuff: is there a way to tell lein not to compile the the namespaces that I require or use?
16:52	nDuff	I don't remember what there is, but yes.
16:52	nDuff	s/there/that/
16:52	mudge	nDuff: okay, tanks
16:52	mudge	thanks
16:54	tomoj	there is?!
16:55	nDuff	mudge: see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4062643/how-can-i-minimize-the-aot-compilation-in-leiningen-clojure
16:55	mudge	nDuff: okay
16:55	nDuff	...hrm; that's more than a little old.
16:56	tomoj	wow, lein by default solves the transitive aot problem now? sweet!
16:57	firesofmay	Hi, is it possible to create a web repl for overtone, where the user can write scripts and on the server side it executes them, transports back the sounds generated via some protocol and the browser plays it on the client side.
16:57	tomoj	oh. https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/141 :(
16:57	firesofmay	I don't know if the browser can do that. So I am curious.
16:58	tomoj	firesofmay: I think that should be possible. but 1) you have to worry about them executing dangerous code and 2) I'm really unsure about this, but I think overtone itself is dangerous, since it calls out to supercollider - so it may be easy for them to crash your jvm
16:59	firesofmay	tomoj, Ah I see.
17:00	technomancy	tomoj: lein includes a workaround
17:00	tomoj	the other hard part is streaming overtone's output out, dunno how you'd do that
17:00	technomancy	there's been an open issue for it since forever =\
17:00	firesofmay	tomoj, The idea from where I am coming from is, I have seen that there is a lot of barrier in just trying out overtone, I myself had lot of problems getting it running.
17:00	tomoj	technomancy: but it still breaks protocols?
17:00	firesofmay	tomoj, yeah, lets forget the whole crashing part, how can you stream the overtone output? Any ideas?
17:00	technomancy	tomoj: yep; doesn't seem to be a way around that problem
17:00	technomancy	other than not using protocols
17:00	tomoj	:)
17:00	tomoj	or fixing CLJ-322
17:01	technomancy	which works great for me
17:01	technomancy	heh; good luck
17:01	tomoj	firesofmay: hmm
17:02	tomoj	I don't think you can do that inside the jvm
17:02	firesofmay	tomoj, I see.
17:02	tomoj	again, not sure. but maybe you can just wire the SC output with jack to something that streams out?
17:02	tomoj	guess I'd ask #supercollider
17:02	firesofmay	tomoj, I am quite to new this so no idea.
17:02	firesofmay	tomoj, okay yeah that may be a good idea.
17:06	tomoj	firesofmay: http://code.google.com/p/darkice/
17:06	tomoj	could be relevant
17:06	tomoj	I've been thinking about streaming overtone to a browser for a long time, but never considered a web repl. cool idea
17:07	firesofmay	tomoj, checking.
17:07	firesofmay	tomoj, yeah. having a web repl would mean anyone can checkout overtone without any barrier of installing.
17:08	firesofmay	tomoj, interesting project.
17:14	mbcev	So I don't have a direct clojure question, but it's semi-related... I know the MVC design pattern was born out of SmallTalk (the poster child for OOP), what about with Functional Programming? Are there similar frameworks slash design patterns slash formalisms that seem to fit Functional Programming particularly? Or is it entirely irrelevant because it depends entirely on how you choose to design your particular system architecture?
17:16	TimMc	map/reduce?
17:16	jamii	tomoj, technomancy: I'd be pretty interested in getting streaming working for https://github.com/jamii/concerto too
17:17	jamii	I imagine there would be a lot of overlap with any web-repl project
17:17	Frozenlock	Does a uberjar run faster than the equivalent separated jars?
17:18	tomoj	jamii: streaming what?
17:18	Frozenlock	(Any load time difference, or is it just for convenience?)
17:18	p_l	I figure there is possible load time difference, but mostly the convenience of not fucking around with the madness that is CLASSPATH
17:19	technomancy	mbcev: middleware is a common "pattern" in Clojure
17:19	technomancy	Frozenlock: no difference
17:20	jamii	tomoj: streaming overtone audio
17:21	solussd	is metadata as a way to mark data as validated by a validator a correct use of metadata? I have some code with validators being called in the view layer and in the model layer. Depending if data is coming from the API or the web portal it may be validated twice. I was considering, as an optimization, marking data as validated and having the validator check for that metadata before performing validation. thoughts?
17:22	solussd	after all, it is data about the data. :)
17:22	technomancy	solussd: sure, except for the fact that it can't be attached to strings or numerics
17:22	solussd	technomancy: it'll always be a record or map
17:24	bryanl	in clojure, there isn't a way to have a range as a hash key is there?
17:24	mbcev	technomancy: So, with middleware you're referring to Ring, right?
17:25	technomancy	mbcev: ring is probably the first place in Clojure it was introduced, but it's also used in nrepl, clj-http, and Leiningen
17:27	mbcev	technomancy: just found a page painting a better picture of what "middleware" means, thanks. I can see how this idea would be more natural to a LISP, and also just to I/O-esque systems. Thanks! :D
17:27	dakrone	mbcev: http://clojure-doc.org/articles/cookbooks/middleware.html
17:28	Frozenlock	Ah excellent! Then my next possibly misguided question: Is there a way to just send every jars into the same folder? Should I just use lein-tar and decompress the result?
17:29	devn	technomancy: best way to get access to some project dependency without adding to .lein-classpath or :eval-in-leiningen?
17:29	mbcev	dakrone: haha, that's I just came up with. That and the wiki for Middleware lol. Thank you!
17:29	technomancy	devn: what?
17:30	devn	i'd like to require src/foo/core.clj in src/leiningen/blah.clj
17:30	Frozenlock	(I've made a lein-plugin around Getdown to enable auto-update for applications, but if the different jars could be separated that would be very nice: less download at each version bump)
17:30	technomancy	devn: eval-in-project is how you do that
17:30	devn	thanks
17:30	technomancy	sure
17:32	TimMc	technomancy: Have you had any thought as to how documentation might be distributed with Clojure projects?
17:33	technomancy	TimMc: Leiningen symlinks things from doc/ into resources/
17:33	technomancy	works pretty well
17:33	TimMc	Oh yeah? Interesting...
17:34	TimMc	What happens on NTFS?
17:34	technomancy	that's how `lein help readme` works
17:34	technomancy	the symlinks are only used during development
17:35	technomancy	`lein uberjar` copies the linked contents into the jar, not the symlinks
17:35	TimMc	but a Windows user would not be able to package the jar properly?
17:35	technomancy	no
17:35	TimMc	Hmm, OK. Not too worried, though.
17:36	technomancy	bin/release is a shell script anyway
17:36	TimMc	I don't know what that is.
17:36	technomancy	oh, I mean the script that generates the uberjar
17:36	technomancy	unfortunately due to bootstrapping it's more complicated than just running `lein uberjar`
17:37	TimMc	This is a component that lein uses to build lein, or to build arbitrary projects?
17:37	technomancy	specific to lein
17:37	technomancy	I just mean symlinks aren't the only thing preventing using Windows for releases
17:38	TimMc	But bin/release only prevents lein from being released on Windows.
17:45	technomancy	I think
17:54	zackzackzack	How does one go about setting the seed for rand?
17:55	ssideris	technomancy: oh, I didn't realize lein uberjar does not run properly on Windows!
17:55	ssideris	is that a documented limitation?
17:56	technomancy	ssideris: leiningen can't build its own uberjar with documentation on Windows (without Cygwin)
17:56	TimMc	Oh right, Cygwin.
17:56	technomancy	building a typical project's uberjar will work
17:57	ssideris	technomancy: oh ok, thanks, sorry for jumping into the discussion with minimal context :-)
17:59	technomancy	no worries
18:13	solussd	are assertions (assert) disabled in production mode for ring?
18:14	technomancy	ring has production mode?
18:15	bozhidar	I guess someone did too much Rails development :-)
18:19	solussd	the jetty adapter appears to take a :mode option
18:19	solussd	:prod or :dev
18:20	solussd	broader question then- when is assert not true?
18:24	brehaut	solussd: do you have a link to the code that uses :mode?
18:24	brehaut	solussd: i cant seem to find it in https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/master/ring-jetty-adapter/src/ring/adapter/jetty.clj
18:24	brehaut	i suspect im looking in the wrong place
18:26	solussd	ack, sorry, it's not passed to the jetty adapter, it's being used by gen-handler in noir.server (bad code reading)
18:30	solussd	could someone help me understand when assert isn't true? I'm debating whether or not to use pre/post conditions in some places- I'd prefer not to throw assert errors in production (i'd rather have validators in my model later catch things and generate errors to present to the user)
18:31	muhoo	technomancy: it'd be neat if readme.md and docs got included in jars
18:31	muhoo	so one could read the docs without having to go find the github page for a lib
18:33	technomancy	muhoo: you can do that with :filespecs {:type :path :path "README.md"} in project.clj
18:33	technomancy	I don't know if it should be on by default since not everyone uses markdown
18:35	technomancy	could search for the first file matching README* but the logic gets a lot more complicated when it's not declarative
18:35	technomancy	(like you need a separate flag to turn it off)
18:35	muhoo	readme.md is the default in lein new, tho
18:36	technomancy	yeah, but markdown is not a very good format
18:36	technomancy	you shouldn't have to add stuff to project.clj to prevent jar failures just because you are using a better format
18:37	muhoo	maybe there will be an eventual rethink of docs then.
18:37	muhoo	but self-contained docs in a lib package would be nice
18:37	technomancy	maybe the default could include :filespecs
18:37	technomancy	I mean the default project.clj
18:38	technomancy	rather than having it hard-coded in lein itself
18:38	muhoo	makes sense
18:40	muhoo	i could even see a plugin for lein repl or nrepl to show them
18:40	muhoo	maybe even some transformation for nrepl.el that turns md into info and puts them in emacs
18:42	technomancy	heh... that would be cool, but info is completely bonkers-insane
18:42	muhoo	well that may be unneccessary since markdown-mode works
18:43	technomancy	it would be nice if there were a pure-elisp HTML renderer
18:43	technomancy	since you can't rely on w3m being available
18:43	technomancy	but yeah, markdown is usually pretty palatable on its own
18:44	muhoo	that's easiest. or there's a markdown-mode func that renders it to htm and shows it in the browser
18:46	muhoo	but i'd love to have M-x nrepl-doc RET friend RET and see the damn readme.md
18:47	muhoo	as a use case :-)
18:50	dnolen	hugod: ping
18:55	sgarrett\|afk	What's the best way to debug in clojure? Or to get good debugging information?
18:57	dnolen	sgarrett: probably ritz
18:58	sgarrett	dnolen: will that work well with lein?
19:00	muhoo	as a use case :-)
19:01	dnolen	sgarrett: seeing as there's a lein-ritz plugin I'd imagine so
19:01	sgarrett	dnolen: Awesome. Thanks!
19:24	seangrove	lynaghk: What's the state of reflex? Is it suitable for production use still, or has it been deprecated for something newer?
20:21	hugod	dnolen: ping
20:21	dnolen	hugod: pong
20:21	hugod	you called...
20:21	dnolen	hugod: http://gist.github.com/4158004
20:22	dnolen	hugod: getting that to work requires a bit too much knowledge about constraint internals
20:22	dnolen	hugod: I'm working on a macro that will greatly simplify defining fairly straightforward constriants like that
20:22	dnolen	hugod: but I'm assuming that's what you wanted in terms of behavior correct?
20:24	hugod	dnolen: yes, thanks very much - though I would call it not-pathc or something
20:24	dnolen	hugod: yeah
20:24	hugod	but looks fantastic :)
20:25	dnolen	hugod: gimme a second, cooking up something even cooler
20:25	dnolen	constraints are pretty sweet - kinda just starting to realize how cool this stuff is.
20:26	hugod	the interaction of functional and logic is mind-bending
20:27	hugod	I'm just wondering how I could use this as a pure constraint (or whatever it is called; something similar to >fd and <fd)
20:27	hugod	I think I can just call it
20:28	dnolen	hugod: what do you mean by similar to >fd <fd?
20:29	hugod	it's ok - I think I understand. I'm using these constraints bound to logic vars, so have to project them
20:29	dnolen	hugod: yes I'm fixing that.
20:29	dnolen	hugod: hold one :)
20:29	dnolen	you should never have to projet w/ constraints
20:29	dnolen	project
20:32	hugod	oh, ok - I'm basically doing (run* [q] (fresh [c] (membero c constraints) (project [c] (c))))
20:32	hugod	oh and unifying q with a pattern, that includes a logic var that is in c too
20:41	dnolen	it's always fun when you can use a pre-constructred exception for cheap backtracking ...
20:43	hugod	functional!
20:44	dnolen	erg, I guess nrepl doesn't do sensible macroexpand yet ...
20:45	dnolen	this feel like 2009
20:45	dnolen	feels
20:45	hugod	I don't think it is recursive yet
20:45	dnolen	I'm not even talking about that
20:45	dnolen	just pretty printed code w/ namespace clutter
20:45	dnolen	w/o
20:46	dnolen	the only thing that's bitten me is macroexpand and yucky stacktraces
20:46	hugod	it's moving very quickly
20:47	hugod	not having multiple sessions is a bit of a limitation I find
21:04	dnolen	hugod: look ma, no project! http://gist.github.com/4158004 :)
21:04	dnolen	hugod: and considerably less code
21:05	dnolen	hugod: I added defc, which eliminates all the boiler plate
21:05	dnolen	note ordering doesn't matter, nor how deeply nested the logic vars are in the terms to the constraint
21:06	dnolen	the constraint won't run until all arguments are deeply ground.
21:06	dnolen	I can't imagine this will solve all use cases - but it'll probably handle many of the kinds of simple constraints most people would write.
21:32	hugod	dnolen: wow!
21:32	hugod	I'll have to try it to test set membership
21:33	dnolen	hugod: it's a bit experimental let me know how it works out for you.
21:33	dnolen	hugod: the fun part is that the body of defc is just regular Clojure code
21:34	dnolen	hugod: but by testing the arguments to see if the constraint is ready to run - it frees you from considering projection - performance hit of course - but in this case the flexiblity is a big win I think.
21:35	hugod	dnolen: having to call project isn't too bad, but nicer without it
21:35	hugod	dnolen: being able to defc constraints simply is big though
21:35	dnolen	hugo: exactly :)
21:56	dnolen	hugod: as far as sets it's likely I add explicit support for CLP(Set)
21:57	dnolen	hugod: kinda like CLP(FD), but without all the complications.
21:58	hugod	dnolen: you had a comment in the code about unification with sets being a research problem - I take it that set membership is easier
21:58	dnolen	hugod: so you could do things like (inset x #{:cat :bird :dog})
21:58	hugod	:) I could use that!
21:58	dnolen	(unionset x #{:zebra} y)
21:58	dnolen	hugod: yep, and it's easy to do
21:59	hugod	dnolen: if I have a pattern for a map, can I associate the whole map with an lvar so I can impose a constraint on it? a la {:as ?f}
21:59	dnolen	hugod: I'm putting efficient CLP(FD) on the backburner and focusing on stuff that's easy to implement efficiently.
21:59	dnolen	hugod: in what context?
22:01	dnolen	hugod: relational programming with sets is hard
22:01	dnolen	hugod: sets in the context of constraint programming - easy
22:02	hugod	dnolen: I want to match a map {:some :key} and impose the constraint (not-pathc [:other :key]) on the map
22:02	dnolen	honestly I don't see how you can do anything w/ relational programming that doesn't involve lists.
22:02	hugod	membero seems to work nicely with maps
22:03	dnolen	hugod: well, in Clojure sequences work out as well of course
22:03	dnolen	hugod: is there something you're describing not covered in the gist?
22:06	hugod	dnolen: I can see how it works in the context of the body of a run, but not when passing the pattern and constraints as logic vars themselves (if that sentenced was parsed)
22:07	jcromartie	why can't I do bitwise operations on BigInteger?
22:07	dnolen	hugod: oh right, you're passing in constraints bound to logic vars?
22:07	hugod	dnolen: yes
22:08	dnolen	hugod: is that the missing bit?
22:08	hugod	(let [rules (map prep [[{:some :key} {:a 1} [(not-pathc ???? [:other :key])]]])] ...)
22:10	hugod	dnolen: map destructuring syntax would be nice...
22:10	dnolen	hugod: yeah I'm not sure how your system works so I can't really say
22:11	dnolen	hugod: would need to take a closer look at how you're trying to solve things.
22:11	hugod	dnolen: I'm just trying to associate an lvar with {:some :key} above, so I can put the same lvar in the not-pathc form
22:12	dnolen	hugod: this is all work you want to do before calling run?
22:14	bryanl	what is -> and ->> called?
22:15	hugod	dnolen: no - I process the constraints - resolving the constraint function symbol in each constraint form and then creating a function that uses reduce to call each constraint with the susbtitution map. That function then gets bound to a logic var and called inside run (that is all working already).
22:16	hugod	dnolen: if this is getting too out of scope I'm happy trying things out on my own
22:18	dnolen	hugod: core.logic constraints or something of your own devising?
22:18	hugod	dnolen: these are core.logic constraints (it works with <fd and >fd)
22:19	dnolen	hugod: so why won't it work w/ not-pathc that I gisted?
22:20	aperiodic	bryanl: the threading macros, thread-first and thread-last (though i've also heard the first one called "the arrow macro")
22:21	hugod	dnolen: because I don't know how to get prep to bind an lvar to the {:some :key} map (actually it would be (partial-map {:some :key})
22:21	bryanl	aperiodic: thrush and threading... now it makes sense
22:23	dnolen	hugod: oh like (unifier ({:foo :bar} :as ?x)) !
22:23	hugod	dnolen: yes, I think so
22:25	hugod	dnolen: I can probably work around it for now anyway, but putting the map inside a map
22:25	hugod	back in 15mins
22:25	dnolen	hugod: yeah I'll ponder that, probably not that hard to add support for in prep and thus unifier
22:25	dnolen	hugod: I gotta run myself. will think on it
23:14	TimMc	bryanl: I like to call them stitching macros.
23:14	brehaut	TimMc: thats a much better than the other common name that people normally use
23:15	brehaut	(which i wont mention to minimise confusion)