#clojure – 2012-11-14

2012-11-14

00:00	adu	Raynes: where are you?
00:00	antares_	Raynes: we are in pretty different weight classes but yeah
00:00	Raynes	antares_: How much do you weigh, sir?
00:01	antares_	Raynes: ~ 145 lbs
00:01	Raynes	Were you assuming me to weigh less or more?
00:01	Raynes	Oh wait, were you calling me fat?
00:02	Raynes	:p
00:02	antares_	Raynes: :)
00:02	adu	Raynes: should I repeat myself?
00:02	Raynes	adu: That's a decision you have to make yourself.
00:02	adu	what is conj?
00:03	adu	is it in NC?
00:03	adu	this must be it
00:04	Raynes	I'm in Eldridge, Alabama.
00:04	adu	I'm in Maryland
00:04	Raynes	In aproximately 13 hours I will be in Raleigh, North Carolina.
00:04	Raynes	approximately*
00:05	adu	but I'll be in NC after the 18th
00:05	adu	but aparently that just won't do
00:05	Raynes	I will be leaving the morning of the 18th. :p
00:07	adu	I feel like I wouldn't fit in anyways, though, I've only written 2 webnoir sites
00:07	xeqi	TylerGillies: I notice its looking for "fuseresource", but the path has "fusesource"
00:07	TylerGillies	xeqi: ack! thanks
00:08	TylerGillies	must have typoed it
00:08	TylerGillies	good catch
00:19	zodiak	I hope the conj videos will be up lickety split for all us poor people out there :)
00:20	zodiak	heck.. give it to the group for a conj-free ;)
00:21	zodiak	I still chuckle at the erlang conf out in SF, which is like $500 for a 'cheap' ticket
00:24	TylerGillies	is there something analogous to 'import org.foo.bar.*' in clojure?
00:24	adu	TylerGillies: use
00:24	TylerGillies	adu: thanks
00:25	TylerGillies	use org.foo.bar or use org.foo.bar.* ?
00:25	zodiak	isn't require :refer :all the proper way now ?
00:25	adu	possibly
00:25	zodiak	I believe as of 1.4 it is
00:26	zodiak	(:require [org.foo.bar :refer :all])
00:26	adu	I only ever do (:require [… :as …])
00:26	zodiak	open to being wrong/stupid/moron
00:28	zodiak	TylerGillies, you got it ?
00:28	TylerGillies	its not finding the jar, not sure if because it didn't download this dep as a dependency or im doing it wrong
00:28	TylerGillies	FileNotFoundException Could not locate org/iq80/leveldb__init.class or org/iq80/leveldb.clj on classpath: clojure.lang.RT.load (RT.java:432)
00:29	zodiak	TylerGillies, you using lein/lein2 deps ?
00:29	TylerGillies	zodiak: yes
00:29	TylerGillies	the libs downloaded
00:29	TylerGillies	not sure if this dependency was implicit, im following instructions on the java page
00:30	zodiak	TylerGillies, fling up your project.clj someplace (pastiebin or some such)
00:31	amalloy	looks like a problem in your ns clause, not your project.clj
00:31	TylerGillies	zodiak:
00:31	TylerGillies	http://pastebin.com/Kr9u52pb
00:31	TylerGillies	amalloy: http://pastebin.com/6Y5V0qzm
00:33	amalloy	leveldb is a java project, not clojure. require is for clojure namespaces, not java stuff
00:33	TylerGillies	ah
00:33	TylerGillies	im a ruby guy, we started doing some stuff in clojure for performace, in the hopes of moving more towards that direction
00:33	TylerGillies	so im somewhat of a novice
00:33	adu	iirc, import is for java
00:34	zodiak	import is indeed the ticket
00:34	TylerGillies	ah
00:34	TylerGillies	thanks guys
00:35	zodiak	np
00:35	TylerGillies	looks like the :refer :all syntax is off now though
00:35	zodiak	yeah.. you don't use :refer :all with import.. jst import and use as usual
00:36	zodiak	sorry, import and then program as usual (not use as in :use)
00:36	TylerGillies	zodiak: ah, thanks
00:36	TylerGillies	i used .*, and it didn't complain
00:36	TylerGillies	hopefully that doesn't shoot me in the foot later
00:36	zodiak	it's java so, probably :P
00:38	TylerGillies	lol
00:43	TylerGillies	looks like Rich Has Spoken on not being able to import * http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/ddca7ec56ea8b51f?pli=1
00:47	zodiak	clojure is a pragmatic language, it's not like python with it's BDFL
00:47	zodiak	if you need to import .* go for it, jst know the risks ;)
00:48	TylerGillies	so you _can_ import .* ?
00:48	TylerGillies	the above reference makes it seem its not possible
00:49	zodiak	I think you can, I read that message as 'not a great idea' .. but then .. it's way past my bedtime ;)
00:49	TylerGillies	heh
00:50	TylerGillies	i added .*sdfsdf to the (import ...) and it didn't complain, so im not gonna take failure of output to mean success
00:51	TylerGillies	im just gonna jar tf the jar file and manually add the classes i need :)
00:54	ynniv	why would you import something that you aren't referencing?
01:02	TylerGillies	ynniv: ask the java documentation that ;)
01:03	ynniv	if you aren't referencing a class, what is the point of importing it?
01:03	TylerGillies	referto previous statement
01:03	TylerGillies	figured out what problem was
01:03	TylerGillies	repl was open before i did lein deps, doh
01:05	ynniv	the previous statement being that the class couldn't be found?
01:08	TylerGillies	previous statement being "ynniv: ask the java documentation that ;)"
01:10	ynniv	That isn't making any sense, but I'm glad that you found lein deps. You probably want to use lein 2.0, which no longer needs the deps command.
01:15	TylerGillies	ynniv: it was tongue in cheek, hence the ";)" im not a java guy but from a lot, if not most, of the java projects i've seen, import org.foo.* is quite common
01:15	TylerGillies	ynniv: so in a round about way i was asking "Ask the people who made that normal why they do it"
01:16	ynniv	importing org.foo.* is a shortcut that is usually frowned upon even with Java folks because it reduces readability
01:17	ynniv	because the code you are reading imports , you don't know which classes are in which packages, hence you want to import
01:17	TylerGillies	well it seems social pressure if not enough because through my power of observation i see that it is quite prevalent
01:18	ynniv	only in sample code, or with people who don't use an IDE
01:18	ynniv	IDEs will use an import for every class to make it clear where classes come from
01:18	TylerGillies	ynniv: in sample code, i don't really know from the interwebs whether someone uses an IDE or not
01:19	TylerGillies	since im not a java guy, as previously stated, i don't have much interaction with them face-to-face
02:07	amalloy	technomancy: thanks for the pointer to parsatron. looks reasonably well designed, and small enough to learn to use easily
02:10	amalloy	although i don't think i've seen such a high letfn-per-LOC in any other clojure file ever
02:38	jasonyeh	hi, has anyone experimented with Nate Young's the.parsatron?
02:47	amalloy	jasonyeh: i dunno how long you've been in the channel, but i was just saying that i recently took a look and it seems pretty good although i haven't tried it
02:52	jasonyeh	amalloy: thanks, was confused by the line "(eof)" in bf parser in the readme. the "(eof)" seems to prevent repl printing the parsed result
02:54	amalloy	well, the parsed result isn't very interesting: it's just the input string split up into characters. he's using the bf parser to recognize/validate bf, but not to do anything interesting with it
02:55	Raynes	amalloy: Wow, what are the odds of that?
02:55	Raynes	That he would ask about it like 10 seconds after you said you liked it.
02:57	amalloy	i think the simplest change to make (bf xs) return its parsed input would probably be (defparser bf [] (let->> [parsed (many (instruction)) _ (eof)] parsed))
02:58	Raynes	amalloy: What are you doing with parser combinators anyway?
02:59	amalloy	not much. marveling, mostly, and reflecting how gloss is kinda-sorta a parser combinator but missing many of the usual building blocks
02:59	Raynes	I don't think I share your interest in things like that.
02:59	Raynes	I get off on monads and applicative functors, but not parser combinators.
02:59	Raynes	Did you see me using arrows earlier? It was hot.
03:00	amalloy	i looked at your paste, but to say that i saw it would be an overstatement
03:00	Raynes	It was one line, dude.
03:00	Raynes	FOCUS.
03:00	Raynes	https://github.com/Raynes/haskheap/blob/master/src/Network/Haskheap.hs#L32
03:01	amalloy	oh, are those arrows? i remember either *** or &&& just being juxt
03:02	amalloy	i guess it must be &&& that's juxt, and *** is the "knit" i added to useful?
03:02	Raynes	amalloy: `(f *** f) (a,b)` = `(f a, f b)`
03:02	Raynes	I don't know how it works at all (haven't learned about arrows), but cool.
03:03	amalloy	(f *** g) (a,b) = (f a, g b)?
03:03	Raynes	Yes
03:04	shachaf	over both :: (a -> b) -> (a, a) -> (b, b)
03:04	shachaf	amalloy: Any lenses in your near past/future?
03:05	amalloy	shachaf: the extent of my knowledge about lenses is someone else's statement that they're a convoluted way to get clojure's update-in wedged into a static-typed language
03:06	amalloy	i skimmed an article once but didn't learn much
03:06	shachaf	amalloy: That doesn't sound right.
03:06	shachaf	A lens is a "functional reference" to some value which is "within" another value in some sense.
03:06	jasonyeh	amalloy: sorry for the dumb question, what's the underscore in (defparser bf [] (let->> [parsed (many (instruction)) _ (eof)] parsed))?
03:07	amalloy	a name for the result of (eof), _ conventionally meaning "i'll ignore this"
03:07	shachaf	Reading deeply-nested values is easy -- (foo . bar . vaz) -- but updating can be annoying in Haskell.
03:07	shachaf	A lens is sort of like a composable (getter, setter) pair that you can use for both purposes.
03:08	shachaf	But the really nifty part is a generalization of lenses to traversals, which are references to N values instead of just one.
03:08	shachaf	For example, you can say "world.monsters.traverse.appendages.traverse.position.x += 1" to move all the appendages of all the monsters one unit to the right.
03:09	shachaf	(The above is actual Haskell code.)
03:17	Sgeo__	I feel like maybe I'm glad I never tried to implement lenses in Clojure. I wouldn't have known about the cool stuff
03:17	Sgeo__	Just more the idea that the logic is in the lenses rather than in the data structure or the function
03:21	brainproxy	Raynes: jimduey mentioned to me a couple of weeks ago that he's working on a protocol based arrows implementation for clojure
03:21	brainproxy	sounded excited about it, but hasn't put anything on GitHub yet
03:21	Raynes	I can't get excited about Haskell things in Clojure.
03:24	clgv	Raynes: me neither.
03:24	brainproxy	Raynes: have you spent any time with frege?
03:24	clgv	I always wonder why there are some people eagerly describing monads in clojure, as well...
03:25	shachaf	Sgeo__: Hmm?
03:25	jjido	clgv monads are supposed to be the answer to side-effects in a pure language :)
03:25	brainproxy	clgv: the abstractions can prove pretty useful, i think that's a fairly practical motivation
03:26	Sgeo__	shachaf, I have vaguely wanted to implement lenses in Clojure at one point, but haven't gotten around to it, and now I doubt that I'd know what the traversal stuff is, so probably wouldn't have done it, which would be sad, so maybe it's good that I didn't do it.
03:26	shachaf	Traversals are the future.
03:27	clgv	but until now I haven't seen an example where one of these monad implementations would improve clojure code. in the tutorials it was harder to read most of the time
03:28	brainproxy	clgv: because of having to setup the monad context, or what do you mean?
03:29	clgv	brainproxy: I just read 3-4 tutorials briefly, yet. maybe it's the added indirection.
03:30	brainproxy	i think protocol-monads can possibly help w/ that a bit, but there is still a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem
03:30	clgv	additionally, I have not seen a "Clojure success story with monads", yet ;)
03:31	brainproxy	i.o.w. to understand what it's doing for you, you need something of a mental model of what monads are all about in the first place
03:32	jjido	what are they all about?
03:32	brainproxy	jjido: encapsulating various plumbing patterns for moving data between functions
03:33	clgv	brainproxy: where would you really see a need to use them in clojure in your projects?
03:33	brainproxy	clgv: sure.. so the project I'm working on has a really nasty control flow scenario
03:33	brainproxy	using state-transformer and maybe monad and writer monad together seems to be helping
03:34	clgv	humm, you cant sketch the scenario outline, can you?
03:34	amalloy	clgv: the `for` macro is a special-cased implementation of the list monad. -?> in contrib is a special-cased implementation of the maybe monad
03:35	clgv	amalloy: ah ok, in these cases they are manifesting implicitely
03:35	brainproxy	okay, so consider a uri pattern that looks like /api/[filter]/[item]/[collection]/[item]/[collection]/[item]...
03:35	brainproxy	now, assume that when trying to resolve the various hops between item,coll,item,coll...
03:36	amalloy	that's basically how it goes. monads are a useful tool for capturing and working with common patterns that come up even if you don't know about them
03:36	brainproxy	you have diverse data sources that can spit back data which doesn't match up well between different kinds of collections and items
03:36	amalloy	i implemented a clojurey version of the io monad in jiraph, so that i could do computations that appear side-effecty on the database, but make them safe to re-do in case of partially-committed transactions
03:37	clgv	ok
04:07	thorwil	where did -?> go for clojure 1.4?
04:09	clgv	thorwil: it's still in core.incubator lib
04:10	clgv	I'd wish that it was included in clojure.core by 1.5 - but there is no info on that
04:11	thorwil	ok. it seems impossible to find it via google. even when calling it nilsafe
04:12	clgv	thorwil: lookup the core.incubator lib^^
04:12	clgv	thorwil: defnilsafe is the macro used to implement those threading macros
04:14	_ulises	morning folk
04:14	_ulises	clgv: what TZ are you on? you seem to be here during my mornings :)
04:14	clgv	_ulises: GMT+1
04:14	_ulises	cool
04:16	clgv	thorwil: well, 1.5 will get when-> which tests for logical true during threading
04:18	clgv	thorwil: ah and (test-> (comp not nil?) ... ) would work it seems
04:20	thorwil	good. whatever works that is less noisy then maybe-m
04:21	clgv	thorwil: currently I juest use -?> from core.incubator
04:21	clgv	*just
04:32	otfrom	morning
04:32	otfrom	I'm guessing everyone here is not going to the conj.
04:37	_ulises	otfrom: how so? is it happening like right now?
04:38	clgv	_ulises: tomorrow I think
04:39	_ulises	ah
04:39	muhoo	it's EST time, so, tonight if you're in GMT-ish land
04:40	muhoo	EDST, to be pedantic
04:41	clgv	muhoo: huh. it says 15th and we have the same date :P
04:44	otfrom	muhoo: I thought the east coast US was back on EST
04:45	clgv	it's tomorrow for GMT+1 as well since it's a negative offset ;)
04:46	otfrom	I figured anyone on here this time of the morning wasn't in NC
04:46	muhoo	ah, right, summer is DST, winter is not (reverse)
04:52	thorwil	with the code in https://github.com/thorwil/tlog i can log in as admin and then the /admin will no longer redirect. but /admin then still does not use my handler, but delivers "Sorry, you do not have access to this resource."
04:56	muhoo	are you sure the session is getting saved?
04:56	muhoo	also, note the :: in your realms
04:56	thorwil	i'm not sure of anything. but if the session is not saved, wouldn't it still redirect?
04:57	muhoo	auth realms must be fully qualified
04:57	muhoo	so i wouldn't use ::, i'd explicitly call out where those realms are defined instead
04:58	muhoo	not ::admin, but :tlog.wherever/admin
04:59	Raynes	muhoo: I've probably asked you this 400 times: are you going to the conj?
04:59	muhoo	Raynes: sadly, no.
04:59	muhoo	are you there already?
05:00	Raynes	Why do people keep asking me that? It's a whole day before the conference even starts.
05:00	Raynes	Right? I haven't missed half the conference or anything, right?
05:00	muhoo	because you can time travel too
05:00	Raynes	Cause like 10 people have asked me if I was there already today.
05:00	muhoo	as well as write haskell.
05:00	Raynes	The Doctor isn't here right now.
05:04	clgv	better get going then ;)
05:05	muhoo	speaking of the Doctor, does rhickey still have that fourth doctor hair? i wanted to give him a scarf at clj/west.
05:06	muhoo	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fourth_Doctor.jpg <-- conj keynote speaker
05:06	thorwil	muhoo: :tlog.init/admin makes it work. thank you. all the examples are flat and no mention of this auth realm business
05:06	maleghast	guffaw
05:07	maleghast	"To the TARDIS!"
05:08	muhoo	thorwil: if it's not explicit in the docs, maybe ask cemerick about it, or report it as a feature request to add it to the docs
05:08	muhoo	the examples assume everything is in one namespace. you've got what looks like an mvc-ish thing going there => trouble.
05:08	clgv	thorwil: it's more a namespaced keyword shortcut issue^^
05:10	muhoo	also, i don't know if he calls it a realm, but those keywords need to be namespaced
05:10	clgv	thorwil: you will have the exact same problem if you use that shortcut for namespaced keywords elsewhere. as a rule of thumb only use something like "::my-keyword" if they are only used in the same namespace - otherwise always fullqualify them
05:10	thorwil	just the usual web pseudo mvc. though just today i wondered about going model -> database or persist and view -> respond
05:11	muhoo	try it, see what fits the problem domain best, i guess.
05:15	Licenser	I wonder is there a good place to start with noir+pinot ?
05:18	clgv	Licenser: afair, you shouldnt use pinot anymore but the libs it was split to
05:18	Licenser	ahhh sneaky
05:19	Licenser	clgv I read the article about that but thought it's still inside the smae library
05:19	piranha	Maybe I'm wrong, but I had the impression that Datomic has some event/notification mechanism to notify you when certain data has changed... Am I wrong?
05:38	Raynes	antares_: Thanks for updating monger. I didn't even know you did it until I tried to push a commit just a second ago. :p
05:38	Raynes	It's deployed.
05:38	antares_	Raynes: sweet
05:39	antares_	this reminds me, we need to update it again, although I guess 1.3.4 fixes are not relevant for refheap
05:40	Raynes	antares_: When are we going to write a rethinkdb driver together? :D
05:43	antares_	Raynes: it is hilarious that a company called RethinkDB is just a me-too mongodb clone :(
05:43	antares_	and by hilarious I mean sad
05:43	Raynes	antares_: From what I've seen, it appears to be better than mongodb in most of the areas where people complain about mongodb.
05:43	Raynes	Am I wrong?
05:44	antares_	possibly but they are still a me-too player now
05:44	Raynes	I don't know what that means. Is it anything like shitting rainbows?
05:45	antares_	yes but you shit them inside
05:45	antares_	so, it makes you über cool but nobody will notice
05:53	nickik	Is there a UseCase where I would prefer Mongo/rethink over Datomic? I do not know Mongo or rethink very well
05:54	Raynes	The case where you want an open source database.
05:55	nickik	Raynes, I think Mongo has some more support for geodata
05:55	nickik	some pre defined querys
05:56	nickik	or something
06:28	Chiron	any clojure lib that allows for something like Scala match case ?
06:29	Anderkent	how is scalas match case different from clojures match ?
06:30	Anderkent	,(doc match)
06:30	clojurebot	I don't understand.
06:30	Anderkent	geh
06:30	antares_	Chiron: core.match
06:30	antares_	Anderkent: destructuring is very limited in scope compared to pattern matching in Erlang or Scala
06:31	Chiron	does it worth to introduce it if i need match/case only two or three times in my code ?
06:31	antares_	Chiron: it's up to you, I don't think it is a huge dependency by any means
06:32	Chiron	is it possible to use core.match were cases should match class Types ?
06:32	Chiron	something like (instance?)
06:37	orbidansm	hello mate
06:38	antares_	Chiron: see core.match documentation, they supposed to have it
06:39	Chiron	ok . thanks :) amazing clojureworks btw
06:39	orbidansm	I'm using ERC Version 5.3 with GNU Emacs 24.1.50.1 (i486-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.20.1, multi-tty) of 2012-09-18.
06:52	antares_	Chiron: you mean, clojurewerkz? thanks!
06:52	Chiron	oh, clojure.match couldn't be used with AOT :/
08:22	ro_st	what's the idiomatic way to respond 404 with noir?
08:23	_ulises	ro_st: there's a bunch of response helpers in noir I think
08:27	ro_st	just searched the noir source. no helper
08:31	jweiss	anyone got a link to how to destructure nested maps? i found {{:keys [bar]} :test} but that seems to only allow you to assign names to values at one level of the structure.
08:35	jweiss	ah here we go http://java.dzone.com/articles/clojure-destructuring
08:35	jweiss	{{bar :bar} :test}
08:35	jweiss	weird, never saw that syntax before.
08:35	Anderkent	ro_st: (noir.statuses/get-page 404) ?
08:36	Anderkent	ro_st: or just set the response status code and not provide any content, it should do the statuses/get-page automatically then
08:37	ro_st	going to try that, Anderkent: {:status 404}
08:42	Kototama	I specified [org.clojure/clojure "[1.4.0,1.5.0)"] in project.clj but lein2 uses clojrue 1.5 beta1 nonetheless, any ideas?
08:46	ro_st	Anderkent: it just serves up an empty 404. so i guess i need to manually respond with 404 and the statuses/get 404
08:48	ro_st	(response/status 404 (statuses/get-page 404)) works
08:48	ro_st	they couldn't just make (response/404) ? tsk.
08:49	Mr_Bond	you could suggest a patch to them :)
08:50	Mr_Bond	I'm sure they are not hostile against improvements
08:50	ro_st	i had to write 404, like, twice. like, DRY, y'know.
08:50	Mr_Bond	do they also supply you with free finger-massages?
08:50	Mr_Bond	from the excessive keyboard typing?
08:51	ro_st	no, but they should, now that you mention it
08:51	Mr_Bond	yes :)
08:51	ro_st	(noir.perks/finger-massage!)
09:10	Chiron	Hi, any better ideas how to write this in idiomatic Clojure ?
09:10	Chiron	http://pastie.org/5377160
09:15	joegallo	Hard to say, without seeing cond-1, cond-2, and action-2.
09:15	_ulises	Chiron: what joegallo said
09:15	danlarkin	yeah what joegallo said
09:15	joegallo	yeah!
09:15	joegallo	:D
09:16	Chiron	cond-1 and cond-2 are (instance?)
09:16	Chiron	action-1 returns a list
09:16	joegallo	it is not idiomatic to call instance with 1 argument... :)
09:16	joegallo	s/1 argument/0 arguments/
09:17	_ulises	Chiron: perhaps better if you paste your actual code? (if you can)
09:17	joegallo	unless this is the code for launching ze missiles, how about you just paste more?
09:19	Chiron	http://pastie.org/5377198
09:19	Chiron	cond-1 and cond-2 are calling to instance? functions
09:24	orbidansm	can you use if instead of cond ?
09:30	Chiron	properly yes
09:30	Licenser	Okay I'm back to bug you all gain, I'm trying to get a little web applicaiton to run and am truely surprised how much walls I run into o.o. Is noir and the related clojure script libraries still maintained or is there a new thing to go with?
09:31	wink	Licenser: do you have a special problem? because I started a new noir app with 1.4 last week and it worked very well
09:32	Licenser	wink I try to get noir+noir-cljs to work and it all keeps failing stacktraces, something with a hiccup file not working
09:32	wink	Licenser: err, ok, I used no clojurescript, sorry, misread
09:32	Licenser	^^
09:33	Licenser	I was a bit surprised since people are soo happy with clojure
09:33	zodiak	Licenser, not to sound stupid here but, have you tried running through the clojurescript quickstart ?
09:34	zodiak	because it surely doesn't mention noir ;P
09:34	zodiak	as with all things comp sci, take it all back to first principles if you hit a roadblock
09:34	Licenser	zodiak I know the clojure basics and clojurescripts basics
09:34	zodiak	good show, fling up a stracktrace on pastie then
09:35	Licenser	zodiak my question is not about the stacktrace, I figured the problem itself (it's just a version incompatibility), more about the state of the libraries or if there is something new around since I looked last :)
09:36	zodiak	oh .. spiffy :)
09:36	zodiak	well, ~personally~ I use compojure+moustache so.. I maybe the wrong person to answer
09:36	maleghast	Licenser: I've had a lot more luck leaving Noir out of the equation and just using Comojure, fwiw
09:36	zodiak	maleghast, +1 internets
09:37	maleghast	zodiak: I thank you… ;-)
09:37	Licenser	Comojure = compojure?
09:38	zodiak	Licenser, yes
09:38	maleghast	Licenser: yes, my typing sucks, what can I tell ya?
09:38	Licenser	maleghast mine too ;) just wanted to be sure
09:38	Licenser	but I guess I crawl back under my erlang rock for now
09:38	maleghast	Licenser: no worries
09:38	Licenser	^^
09:39	maleghast	Licenser: Erlang, eh? And I thought I had some esoteric language interests...
09:39	maleghast	;-)
09:39	patrkris	hi folks, i'm trying out reducers in Clojure 1.5 with the following code: https://www.refheap.com/paste/6668
09:39	patrkris	why do I get an OutOfMemoryException when running (reducerslib)?
09:39	Licenser	maleghast ^^ all the other parts of the applicaiton are written in erlang, I was pretty much interested in the clojure/clojurescript integration
09:40	Licenser	but since I fail at making that simple I guess the energy to getting it all figured out is bigger then the energy saved for me in this case
09:40	maleghast	Licenser: Fair enough - if I had the time and / or a business need I think that I would enjoy ClojureScript too, but as it is I've not had the opportunity to use it yet.
09:40	maleghast	If you want a nice, terse syntax for generating JS, why not look at Coffee?
09:41	Licenser	nods would have loved to, since I adore clojure but well :) I hardly can expect other contributors to fight with stuff when I have already trouble with it :P
09:42	zodiak	ugh.. coffeescript is jst.. horrible :)
09:42	zodiak	tell me, honestly asked, how do you ~sanely~ debug coffeescript ?
09:42	zodiak	(assuming something slips past tdd etc ;)
09:42	maleghast	zodiak: raised eyebrow That's fair, I guess, but seeing as nodeJS can run it interactively I think there are a few ways
09:44	zodiak	maleghast, that's what is stopping me adopting it. debugging. I mean, I can compile down into js, find the bug in the js and then reverse back into the cs
09:44	zodiak	but.. it feels... nasty
09:45	zodiak	I am open to other ways :)
09:45	nicl	Hey all, I've just started my first serious Clojure application - a compojure app which exposes an API to create and store books (along with reviews, and some meta data - author, isbn etc.)
09:46	nicl	I have a few questions: 1. what are the recommended libraries which abstract sql interaction - I've seen korma. Is there anything else I should be aware of?
09:47	maleghast	zodiak: Yeah, I can see that… As I thought, you can do it with Node, see the second answer, here -> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11068023/debugging-coffeescript-line-by-line
09:47	Licenser	zodiak it's doable but not pleasent
09:47	nicl	2. SQL or Mongo ? - I've experienced with SQL but haven't used a noSQL db before. This is a purely personal/hobby project so it would be nice to learn something new in mongo, but is this widly inappropriate / what do people suggest?
09:47	Licenser	nicl SQL
09:47	nicl	(this might be a hopeless/too broad question)
09:47	Licenser	or Riak
09:47	zodiak	maleghast, reading
09:48	Licenser	nicl and if you use SQL please go for postgresql
09:48	patrkris	nicl: Datomic ;) http://datomic.com
09:48	zodiak	nicl, clj-record if you want activerecord instead of data-mapper ;)
09:49	nicl	patrkris: ha - I guess that would be appropriate although I am slightly scared by it!
09:50	zodiak	maleghast, ta for the link.. time to play about with it and see how it shapes up :)
09:50	patrkris	nicl: yeah, me too... but it's beautiful
09:50	Mr_Bond	doesn't ACID transactions in datomic pretty much kill the performance it gains over regular rdbs?
09:51	clgv	Mr_Bond: I thought ACID in an immutable db is easier thus cheaper, no?
09:51	Mr_Bond	no
09:51	nicl	Licenser: not sure if you are suggesting I use SQL, or that there is an actual library called SQL for interacting with an SQL db?
09:52	Licenser	nicl I suggest not using mongo actually, there are many scarry things to be read about that
09:52	Mr_Bond	to be ACID compliant, the write has to be commited to disk before the transaction is finnished
09:52	Mr_Bond	commited as in fsync
09:53	clgv	Mr_Bond: really, so in-memory dbs cannot be ACID compliant?
09:53	Mr_Bond	clgv: that is correct
09:53	algernon	I'd suggest using mongo, because for a hobby project, when one wants to learn something new, it's perfect. (and monger has great docs to boot, better than korma's imo)
09:54	Mr_Bond	it's the only way to guarantee consistancy from the databases perspective
09:54	maleghast	Certainly MongoDB is a powerful, stable product that no one should be frightened of, but like all tools it has its uses, and also there are things for which it is not fit.
09:54	Mr_Bond	it's like if you turn off fsync in mysql, it's dirt fast
09:55	patrkris	Mr_Bond: but why do you think it will perform worse than RDBMS? because of the extra layer added over the storage service (datomic on top of e.g. DynamoDB or PostgreSQL)?
09:55	maleghast	nicl: I suggest that if you are not in any danger of losing any money then have a go with Mongo - it's well suited to the domain that you describe, it's fast to get up and running and you'll learn something new.
09:56	Mr_Bond	patrkris: I didn't say it would, I just thought it would kill most of the performance gains nosql typically has
09:56	devn	"if you're not in danger of losing money, use mongo!"
09:56	devn	^-new mongodb tagline
09:56	Licenser	maleghast how about riak? It's also a pretty awesome K/V store
09:56	Mr_Bond	common issues with mongodb, is sharding on wrong keys (having data moving about too much), and scaling out when it's too late
09:57	Mr_Bond	if you avoid those, and follow guidelines, you'll moste likely be fine
09:57	Mr_Bond	and what devn said
09:57	Mr_Bond	:)
09:57	maleghast	Licenser: I hear it is, though what I hear is that it's particularly well suited to very high traffic writes, due to its design choices
09:57	patrkris	Mr_Bond: I think Rich says that datomic is not good for massive amounts of writes
09:58	patrkris	but its fast for reads and provides ACID
09:58	Licenser	maleghast it scales very well and has a nice data integrety scheme
09:58	patrkris	and that's by design
09:58	zoldar	I don't know if that still holds for current release, but mongodb has some insane default settings with regard to handling write operations
09:59	Mr_Bond	patrkris: yes, but reads are typically not slow in rdbs either
09:59	maleghast	devn: Hardly, there are large organisations using it in anger, the trick is to not use it for everything and to use it well, like any tool. My point to nicl was that he / she may as well learn something new (be it Mongo, Riak, Cassandra, RethinkDB) if there is no financial or business risk.
09:59	nicl	wow - sounds like I will just have to decide what I want to learn.
09:59	nicl	there is no financial risk - it is purely a spare time/learning thing
09:59	maleghast	nicl: precisely
09:59	Mr_Bond	go for it :)
09:59	patrkris	Mr_Bond: right... but I guess (I don't know much about this) scaling is harder
09:59	nicl	thanks for all the advice
09:59	maleghast	Why not hook it up to all of them one after the other and see which one you like best?
09:59	Licenser	:)
10:00	Mr_Bond	patrkris: yeah
10:00	nicl	maleghast: if I get the time!!!
10:00	maleghast	Don't forget ArangoDB :-)
10:00	algernon	nicl: use whatever has the best docs, if you want to learn :)
10:02	zoldar	for the record, here's an experiment that somebody did some time ago on mysql: bypassing the whole sql parsing layer and talking straight to ndb api: http://yoshinorimatsunobu.blogspot.com/2010/10/using-mysql-as-nosql-story-for.html
10:03	mtd	otfrom if it's on-topic, I have a random question about the upcoming London Clojurians hackathon's structure: do we come and work on our own projects, or one that's given to us on the day, or something in-between?
10:13	nicl	mtd: when is the hackathon?
10:17	orbidansm	hackathon is like coding dojo, I guess. But longer
10:18	orbidansm	I havent been to any clojure hackathon
10:19	mtd	nicl: Dec 8, Tower 42 - http://www.meetup.com/london-scala/events/91346712/
10:19	mtd	orbidansm: so...like a dojo, there is an assigned project, right?
10:19	marutks	yes
10:19	nicl	mtd: thanks
10:20	mtd	nicl: np
10:54	otfrom	mtd: are you talking about Hack The Tower?
11:00	otfrom	mtd: I don't know if there is a "set problem" as such, but it is focusing on building webistes
11:00	otfrom	*websites
11:42	tgoossens	hi. i'm just thinking. If i have "pieces" ([x y] coordinate) on a "board". One way to do this is to have define a board. {:pieces #{}} which has a set of pieces
11:42	tgoossens	i write all the functions to add pieces and do some useful stuff with this
11:43	tgoossens	but then
11:43	tgoossens	i want it to happen in constant time
11:43	tgoossens	so
11:43	Anderkent	why do you want it to happen in constant time?
11:43	tgoossens	:pieces must now be a map of vector->piece
11:43	Anderkent	oh sorry i thought that was it, continue :P
11:44	wingy_	ibdknox: good LT update automation :)
11:44	tgoossens	:)
11:44	tgoossens	then
11:45	tgoossens	when i compare it how i do it in java (this was part of an assignment in a course on OO but now i'm trying to do it in clojure (for myself))
11:45	tgoossens	then
11:45	tgoossens	board.hasPiece(Piece)
11:45	tgoossens	and all other stuff could still be used
11:45	tgoossens	but I don't see how i can (in a clean way)
11:45	tgoossens	suddenly adapt everything to the map
11:46	tgoossens	that suddenly was introduced instead of the set
11:46	tgoossens	-- that ends the question
11:47	tgoossens	(note: i've only been exploring clojure for one month now. my only experience is OO so far)
11:47	tgoossens	(got interested into it by accident :D and so far i love it)
11:47	Anderkent	,(vals {[0 1] {:type :rook} [2 3] {:type :king}})
11:48	clojurebot	({:type :king} {:type :rook})
11:48	Anderkent	you can look at a map as if you were looking at a set, if you just want to check whether something is in a map
11:49	tgoossens	What i'm trying to ask is. Do i have to "rewrite" all my functions, do i "write new ones", or something else?
11:49	TimMc	Well, you can for the keys.
11:49	TimMc	tgoossens: If you change the backing store, you'll need to change the implementations of the functions, but probably not their contracts.
11:50	tgoossens	the typical argument from an oO-fanatic would be now: "that it is a set or a map should be encapsulated". And having only experience with OO, i cannot deny this argument
11:50	tgoossens	what am i not seeing?
11:51	Anderkent	a set or a map have completely different meanings
11:51	TimMc	A user of your fns shouldn't know whether it's a set or a map, but your fns absolutely should know.
11:51	Anderkent	any function that directly interacts with the set/map will have to be updated
11:51	Anderkent	but after it is it can behave in the same way as before
11:52	Anderkent	thus the fact it is a set and/or map is hidden from anyone who uses the function
11:52	clojurebot	Alles klar
11:52	TimMc	~botsmack
11:52	clojurebot	botsmack is headdesk
11:52	tgoossens	mmm
11:52	TimMc	clojurebot: forget botsmack \|is\| headdesk
11:52	clojurebot	I forgot that botsmack is headdesk
11:52	TimMc	~botsmack
11:52	clojurebot	botsmack is headdesk
11:52	tgoossens	not quite getting it (yet)
11:52	TimMc	Damn inference engine.
11:52	Anderkent	look back at your board.hasPiece, it used some kind of set, map or array as a backend, right?
11:52	tgoossens	yes
11:53	Anderkent	if you changed the backend data type, you would have to change board.hasPiece
11:53	TimMc	tgoossens: Think of it algebraicly: (has-piece (make-board ...) ...) should return a certain answer independently of the implementation.
11:53	tgoossens	correct
11:53	tgoossens	oh
11:53	Anderkent	but anything that uses hasPiece does not change
11:53	Anderkent	it's the same way here - your (has-piece) function has to be changed
11:53	Anderkent	but anything that calls (has-piece) does not.
11:53	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
11:53	Anderkent	Does that make sense?
11:54	tgoossens	mmyes
11:55	tgoossens	it was just
11:56	tgoossens	hmm
11:56	tgoossens	could multimethods help here?
11:56	tgoossens	dispatch on collection type
11:57	tgoossens	or is that just bullshit
11:57	tgoossens	if for some reason
11:57	tgoossens	multiple forms of board are present
11:57	tgoossens	but then.. why would that happen hmm
11:57	tgoossens	maybe i'm seeing problems where there aren't any
11:59	Anderkent	if you want to support multiple types of boards
11:59	Anderkent	then protocols are probably what you want to use
11:59	tgoossens	because of the speed?
11:59	TimMc	Nah, protocols are restrictive.
11:59	tgoossens	or because of the "interface-like" behaviour
11:59	TimMc	Multimethods are far more flexible.
12:00	tgoossens	i like multimethods so far
12:00	tgoossens	seem quite powerful
12:00	tgoossens	but read that they are slower (because of the dynamic dispatch)
12:00	tgoossens	but that speed
12:00	Anderkent	the speed doesn't really matter 99% of the time
12:00	tgoossens	is not relevant here
12:00	tgoossens	anderkent: as you say. that is only in critical systems :p
12:02	firesofmay	Hi, I am looking to design LOGO programming environment in clojure. Can anyone give me pointers on how to get started on it? Like the libraries I should look at?
12:02	firesofmay	Its just to learn/fun.
12:03	tgoossens	ps: it really nice i don't have to invent my own type everytime ovr again :p
12:04	mtd	otfrom: yes, I was wondering about "Hack the Tower". I've got a website idea I'd like to build, and would love to do it in clojure with some people working on similar problems sitting next to me to bounce ideas off of, and vice-versa, but I don't want to waste anyone's time and money if the purpose of that meetup is to hack on salesforce.com's API or similar...just wondering what the structure was planned to be, as I'm not a hackathon regular.
12:09	tgoossens	Anyone heard of java "Future"
12:09	tgoossens	?
12:10	Anderkent	yes, similar things in clojure are futures or promises
12:10	tgoossens	a friend told me a couple of minutes about it
12:10	tgoossens	never heard of it
12:12	tgoossens	looks ok to me
12:13	mycelloandi	firesofmay: take a look over here http://clojure-libraries.appspot.com should be a graphics section
12:14	tgoossens	Do i get this straight? Promises are the same as futures. but you can "deliver" later on a value? instead of defining what thread will do it?
12:14	firesofmay	mycelloandi, okay thanks. I was just checking out quil. I am wondering if there is something that will help me dynamically interact and generate. Will check it out. :)
12:15	holo	hi
12:15	mycelloandi	firesofmay: you could also use html5 canvas or svg via clojurescript
12:16	firesofmay	mycelloandi, I see. any advantage of doing/using that?
12:16	mycelloandi	easy to say "hey check this out" and just send a url :-)
12:17	Anderkent	with promises, you create it first and give it to someone other thread. Then at some point you deliver the promise, saying "You can now use this value"
12:17	tgoossens	ok. then i got it right :)
12:17	tgoossens	thanks
12:17	Anderkent	with futures, you ask some other thread to run computation for you, and wait for the result
12:17	holo	when i run a script with `lein run -m script.spam`, i get a "java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.string" if i remove an unneeded library. if i put it there with a require (and i don't even use it) the script runs perfectly. do i need to clean something?
12:17	tgoossens	so futures are more for thread-pool like stuff / executors?
12:19	firesofmay	mycelloandi, Hmm. Point taken.
12:25	pjstadig	if anyone it at the Sheraton for the conj and wants a chocoroom, stop by the board room
12:25	danlarkin	stop giving away our chocorooms paul
12:27	wink	I'm not sure I want to ask for details.
12:27	egghead	:)
12:33	alexnixon	why doesn't LazySeq have a .toString method?
12:33	tgoossens	think about what would happen
12:34	tgoossens	if it is an infinite sequence
12:34	tgoossens	like (repeat 5)
12:34	tgoossens	not sure that "is" the reason
12:34	alexnixon	then "here be dragons" as always with lazy sequences
12:34	tgoossens	but it makes sense to me
12:34	alexnixon	,(str (doall (lazy-seq [1 2 3])))
12:34	clojurebot	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@7861"
12:34	alexnixon	,(str (seq (doall (lazy-seq [1 2 3]))))
12:34	clojurebot	"(1 2 3)"
12:35	alexnixon	seems odd
12:35	Anderkent	well, why the doall?
12:35	Anderkent	doesnt seem odd without doall at all :)
12:35	alexnixon	oh, I was just playing (to see whether it returns a realized lazy seq, or a seq)
12:36	alexnixon	and to point out that the "your sequence could be infinite" doesn't really apply when your lazy seq has already been realized
12:36	Anderkent	but you don't want the output of str to change depending on whether the seq was realized or not
12:37	ebraminio	Hi, how I can use map here? (merge* @fy @fz) to (merge* (map #(@%) fy fz))
12:38	alexnixon	no, I agree you don't. I'm wondering why it doesn't just realize the seq, and just allow users to call .toString on an infinite sequence and shoot themselves in the foot
12:38	ebraminio	merge* is a custom (user defined) function and fy fz are two futures here
12:39	Anderkent	alexnixon: because you don't know whether a lazy seq is infinite or not, and you might want to call str on infinite seqs as well (f.e. in a debugger)
12:39	Anderkent	ebraminio: (merge * (apply deref fy fz))
12:39	Anderkent	should be map
12:39	Anderkent	not apply
12:40	Anderkent	but basically @x => (deref x)
12:41	alexnixon	the debugger argument is a good one, but I don't think the "you don't know if it's infinite or not" is. We let users (apply hash-map col) when col could be infinite.
12:44	mefisto	so, if I want to implement something that matches keywords to functions (as in, if we get this keyword, call this function, as defined in a map or something like that) do I need to make a macro for that?
12:44	ebraminio	Anderkent, thanks a lot! :) can you help me a bit about it? when i write code i get this error Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$future_call$reify__5684 I guess (apply ...) is lazy, am I must (into [] x) it?
12:44	Anderkent	alexnixon: the expectation is that (str x) should be safe to do on any x
12:45	Anderkent	ebraminio: sorry, i said lower: it should be map. (merge* (map deref fx fy fz))
12:47	Anderkent	mefisto: you can have functions in maps, but if you're just dispatching on a keyword you might want multimethods instead
12:47	Anderkent	,((:my-str-keyword {:my-print-keyword prn :my-str-keyword str}) \A \B)
12:47	clojurebot	"AB"
12:48	alexnixon	Anderkent: then why not (str (range)) => "(0 1 2 3 4 ..."
12:49	alexnixon	perhaps I should just use prn and not worry about .toString
12:49	mefisto	Anderkent: ok, thanks!
12:49	Anderkent	alexnixon: what if each element is very costly? say you have a lazy seqs of files on remote server... How many do you fetch? What if they have side effects?
12:50	ebraminio	Anderkent, Sorry again, I am getting this "Wrong number of args (1) passed to" how I can fix it?
12:51	Anderkent	ebraminio: (apply merge* (map deref fx fy fz)) . Sorry! I knew I wanted apply there.
12:51	alexnixon	Anderkent: then I'd argue that you shouldn't use str without understanding that you'll realize some portion of your sequence. If you don't want that, don't use str
12:53	Anderkent	That means str is suddenly dangerous to use and I can't just print stuff in a repl. Bad cost just to have (str ...) instead of (str (seq ...))
12:54	Anderkent	honestly I'm surprised prn does evaluate lazy seqs
12:55	ebraminio	Anderkent, oh great, but very sorry again, I am getting "Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$future_call$reify__5684"
12:56	alexnixon	Anderkent: so what about this: (let [x (range) y (seq x)])
12:56	ebraminio	Anderkent, (apply merge* (map deref [fy fz]))
12:56	ebraminio	Anderkent, thanks a lot :)
12:56	alexnixon	Anderkent: if you don't call .toString on y, things are fine. If you do call .toString on y, you go OOM
13:01	tgoossens	i must admit. The first time i wanted to print lazy sequences. I was quite confused why it didn't work
13:01	alexnixon	I'm actually confused by that example - how do you explain this? &\| (let [x (range) y (seq x)] (realized? x)) \|&
13:01	lazybot	⇒ true
13:02	ebraminio	Anderkent, http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/logic_boat.png as a gift for you :)
13:02	TimMc	&(let [a (atom nil)] (reset! a a) a)
13:02	lazybot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
13:04	TimMc	^ There are other things that can't be printed safely, by the way.
13:04	tgoossens	sense it makes none? :p
13:04	TimMc	Is that a bug? I don't know.
13:04	Anderkent	alexnixon: (seq x) realizes the first element of x if i recall correctly
13:05	alexnixon	Anderkent: that may be, but realized? should apply to the whole sequence
13:06	alexnixon	at least that's my understanding of it
13:06	TimMc	Wait wait wait, since when does lazybot have this &\| [1 2 3] \|& inline eval syntax?
13:06	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3]
13:06	Anderkent	I think there's a difference between 'lazy as a contract' and 'lazy as an implementation detail'
13:06	Anderkent	but I might be wrong/confused
13:07	Anderkent	seq's are lazy of the 'implementation detail' kind, so they're presumed safe to print
13:07	Anderkent	lazy-seqs are lazy of the 'I told you I'm lazy' kind, so they aren't safe to print
13:07	TimMc	I wouldn't say that.
13:07	Anderkent	Might be wrong her e:)
13:07	alexnixon	Anderkent: even though assuming that a seq is safe to print is dangerous
13:07	alexnixon	see my example above
13:07	TimMc	An infinite seq is contractually lazy. It wouldn't make sense any other way.
13:07	Anderkent	sure you can make things that break the expectations
13:09	raek	it's interesting that (str some-seq) actually realizes it...
13:10	Anderkent	TimMc: can you make an infinite seq without using lazy-seq somewhere?
13:10	raek	I think it is realized because toString uses its hashcode
13:10	seangrove	Hey all, I've been working in Clojurescript for awhile now, have some questions
13:10	raek	Anderkent: sure, you could define a new ISeq (that, for example, returns itself when you call rest on it)
13:10	seangrove	I would like to write a macro that will read from some template files locally and insert them as strings in the clojurescript code at compiletime
13:11	alexnixon	trying to keep this on track - my proposal is that it's more consistent, and more in line with the "principle of least surprise" for lazy sequences to have a .toString method
13:11	seangrove	Just want to make sure I'm thinking of this rigth with cljs - macros will run at compiletime, and therefore have access to the file system, right?
13:12	TimMc	alexnixon: I think a more appropriate track is to look at how prn handles lazy seqs.
13:12	Negdayen	seangrove: yep, should be so.
13:12	TimMc	(The whole print family of fns.)
13:12	seangrove	Negdayen: Thanks, cljs sometimes causes a bit of circular thought for me
13:12	Negdayen	(that's assuming cljs still uses clojure macros--should be so)
13:19	alexnixon	TimMc: (str (range 0 2)) => "clojure.lang.LazySeq@3c2". (pr-str (range 0 2)) => "(0 1)"
13:20	Anderkent	I think it's definitely surprising for .toString to realize lazy-seqs, but then again I find it surprising pr does it.
13:20	alexnixon	TimMc: (str (range)) => death. (pr-str (range)) => death.
13:20	alexnixon	so it seems that calling .toString on a lazy sequence does realize the whole thing, but also prints garbage
13:21	Anderkent	in which case it manages to combine the worst of both cases
13:21	alexnixon	Anderkent: yep :-(
13:21	alexnixon	Anderkent: and bolsters the argument for giving clojure.lang.LazySeq a .toString method
13:23	alexnixon	ah, and of course Stuart Sierra has gotten there first: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/clojure-dev/F68GRPrbfWo
13:23	Anderkent	(defn prange ([] (prange 1)) ([n] (prn 'Realized' n) (cons n (lazy-seq (prange (inc n))))))
13:23	Anderkent	is useful for exploring that
13:24	Anderkent	(should be double quotes around realized, of course)
13:24	Anderkent	and indeed it realizes all of it - try (str (take 10 (prange))
13:25	alexnixon	yeah as the email above (and raek pointed out) it's because hashCode is called
13:26	alexnixon	so sensible behaviour is either 1. give lazy-seq a toString method which doesn't realize the seq, and prints garbage. 2. give lazy-seq a toString method which does realize the seq, and prints it
13:27	Anderkent	yep
13:30	alexnixon	well at least that's the issue clarified, even though I'm not sure which of those is the better option
13:30	alexnixon	have to go now - thanks for the help
13:30	tgoossens	easy question: how to turn "nil" into "false"
13:31	tgoossens	(other than using if)
13:32	alexnixon	(defn truthy [x] (comp not not))
13:32	Anderkent	tgoossens: what should it do on not-nill values?
13:32	tgoossens	wel
13:32	tgoossens	*well:
13:32	Anderkent	false on nil true on everything else?
13:32	tgoossens	yes
13:32	tgoossens	(def haspiece? [{:keys [pieces] :as board} piece]
13:32	tgoossens	(pieces piece))
13:33	Anderkent	,(not (nil? nil))
13:33	clojurebot	false
13:33	Anderkent	hm
13:33	pyrtsa	tgoossens: (doc boolean)
13:33	tgoossens	thats it!
13:33	tgoossens	thanks
13:33	pyrtsa	Often not needed, like you probably know.
13:34	Anderkent	you dont want boolean since it will give you false on false.
13:34	Anderkent	,(not (nil? false))
13:34	clojurebot	true
13:34	Anderkent	,(boolean false)
13:34	clojurebot	false
13:34	pyrtsa	Then (comp not nil?)
13:35	tgoossens	,(boolean nil)
13:35	clojurebot	false
13:40	tgoossens	when i rewrote my OO project from last year in clojure. I'm going to mindblow the professor (or so i hope :p )
13:41	akhudek	tgoossens: is the rewrite shorter?
13:41	tgoossens	i just started today :p
13:41	tgoossens	but for the functionality i rewrote atm
13:41	tgoossens	yes
13:42	tgoossens	its just. i find it a real pity that the coming years everything will be in the theme of "OOP": "OO is the best, and all you should do is OO"
13:42	tgoossens	and I would like an opinion on that
13:42	tgoossens	but i'll first create an example
13:42	tgoossens	many people in my study
13:43	tgoossens	have heard ONLY of OO. Don't event know that there are other ways to program
13:43	tgoossens	thats just lame
13:43	tgoossens	and I want to try to change that awareness a bit
13:43	tgoossens	(not in the shortterm, but in the longterm)
13:44	akhudek	tgoossens: it takes time for popularity to shift. The lack of popularity for functional languages has been a hotly debated topic for many many years
13:44	akhudek	since the first lisp probably :)
13:45	tgoossens	any advice on what I should talk with my professor about?
13:45	tgoossens	akhudek: probably yes. All i want for now is the professors opinion
13:46	tgoossens	(ps: university of leuven, belgium)
13:47	akhudek	not particularly. If you want his opinion just ask and listen. Don't discard what he says idly.
13:47	scriptor	just ask him what his opinion is on functional programming
13:47	scriptor	before you show off your code to him
13:47	tgoossens	you're right
13:47	scriptor	I'm sure he's had plenty of students trying to impress him before
13:47	Iceland_jack	Don't be surprised if he doesn't care that much
13:48	tgoossens	why would that be?
13:50	madsy	tgoossens: If anyone tries to sell you OO as some ultimate method, show them http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?GoldenHammer
13:51	akhudek	tgoossens: profs come in as many variations as people elsewhere. Some are just interested in their narrow domain and may not find the OO vs functional debate interesting. Ohter profs love questions like that and will happily spend time talking to you about it and perhaps trying to convince you of their point of view. You won't know until you talk to him/her.
13:52	tgoossens	madsy: lol
13:52	tgoossens	akhudek: i'll just ask his opinion. and see how it goes :)
13:53	Iceland_jack	That's a good plan
13:53	scriptor	also, stay humble
13:54	Iceland_jack	^^
13:55	tgoossens	oh. don't worry about that. I've been interfering humbly in a professors teaching before succesfully ;)
13:56	tgoossens	and now he mentions what i told. in his classes :)
13:57	tgoossens	and now a confession:
13:58	tgoossens	it has only been a month since my first contact with functional programming and clojure in particular
13:58	tgoossens	before that i was "OO-fanatic" ("oo" is the best)
13:58	tgoossens	but i prefer to become more pragmatic :)
13:59	Iceland_jack	It sounds like you're still forming your opinions and preferences
13:59	tgoossens	yes
13:59	tgoossens	absolutely
13:59	Iceland_jack	so I'd think carefully before becoming too dogmatic either way
13:59	Iceland_jack	Not saying you are, but it's not unheard of
13:59	TimMc	,{(range) 5}
14:00	clojurebot	{(0 1 2 3 4 ...) 5}
14:00	TimMc	,(hash-map (range) 5)
14:00	tgoossens	yes. thats why i'm learning about FP on myself
14:00	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
14:00	tgoossens	and OO will be in class
14:00	scriptor	hmm...
14:00	Iceland_jack	Glad to hear that
14:00	tgoossens	but that doesn't rule out
14:00	TimMc	Iceland_jack: The zeal of the convert?
14:01	tgoossens	that i want the opinion of my prof :)
14:01	Chiron	Hi, i don't really understand tree-seq (tree-seq vector? seq [[1 2 [3]] [4]]) would you please explain to me its output ?
14:01	Chiron	, (tree-seq vector? seq [[1 2 [3]] [4]])
14:01	clojurebot	([[1 2 [3]] [4]] [1 2 [3]] 1 2 [3] ...)
14:01	tgoossens	but as you said
14:01	tgoossens	currently sstill forming
14:01	tgoossens	and a lot of "quoting" of the talks i saw about clojure & fp
14:02	tgoossens	(even overexcited perhaps)
14:04	tgoossens	g2g bye!
14:14	bobo_	doesnt it work to modify an atom if you do it in another thread? just calling my function seems to work. but submiting it to a executor doesnt seem to work?
14:15	TimMc	bobo_: It's not really clear what you're asking. Wht did you do, what did you expect, and what actually happened?
14:16	bobo_	I have an atom, i have a function that resets the value. When i call that function, the value of the atom resets.
14:16	bobo_	but when i submit the function to a scheduledexecutor, nothing happens
14:16	bobo_	ive been away from clojure for way to long
14:16	TimMc	So you have any evidence the fn is actually being run?
14:16	TimMc	*Do
14:17	bobo_	hm, good point
14:24	piranha	I've retrieved contrib.datalog from old monolithic contrib, which is fun - could be used as an in-memory db for cljs apps, but it seems to be quite slow :(
15:06	`fogus	piranha: There are many reasons why it's slow, the least of which is that it does a lot of set operations
16:03	seangrove	I can't seem to get the google closure hash library working in clojurescript properly: https://gist.github.com/4074776
16:03	seangrove	It's saying the required namespace was never provided
16:04	seangrove	If I just require [goog.crypt :as crypt] instead of [goog.crypt.Md5 :as md5] it works, but the md5 methods aren't there
16:07	Chiron	Hi, list comprehension is clear choice , but any other ways ? http://pastie.org/5379078
16:08	znDuff	"get the coll-3 of each coll-2 of each coll-1"?
16:09	znDuff	Chiron: An example that's complete enough to be independently runnable would be helpful. Otherwise, it's not clear what the "coll-3" of a "coll-2" _is_.
16:09	Chiron	coll-1 has a seq 'call-2' . each element in coll-2 has a seq named 'coll-3'
16:10	znDuff	Chiron: ...also, if you're doing this for side-effects, which the do-some-thing name implies, you should probably be using doseq rather than for.
16:10	znDuff	...
16:11	znDuff	Chiron: It's still not clear. Let's go at it from a different direction: How does what you have already differ from what you want?
16:12	Chiron	the current for works (which it is something like Java's nested loops) . i'm only wondering how list comprehension could be done in Clojure in another way
16:13	znDuff	Chiron: "list comprehension" is Python terminology -- it's not exactly common here.
16:13	Chiron	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/for
16:14	znDuff	shrug. Even so, I haven't seen it used in Clojure outside the documentation, and people coming from Python.
16:15	znDuff	...anyhow -- other approaches. shrug. You can look at what the for macro expands to, of course.
16:15	Chiron	thank you
16:25	seangrove	Ok, after digging around in the goog-closure jar, it looks like none of them actually include the md5 library
16:26	seangrove	anyone know if it's fundamentally incompatible, or just omitted for some reason?
16:27	wei_	is there a clj socket library? or do people just use java sockets?
16:29	wei_	^ I see there's a wrapper called pocket
16:29	nightfly_	I just use Java sockets but: https://clojars.org/search?q=socket
16:31	zodiak	hrm. stupid question, in vimclojure, how do I map \rt to run all tests for the project, not jst the tests in the current buffer ?
16:32	lkjklkjj	If I have a java array #<long[] [J@75da931b> How do I stop class cast exception when calling (java.util.Arrays/asList )
16:32	lkjklkjj	[J cannot be cast to [Ljava.lang.Object
16:33	raek	lkjklkjj: does this work? (let [^:longs array (expression-yielding-array)] (java.util.Arrays/asList array))
16:34	raek	sorry, "^longs"
16:35	raek	perhaps this works too (let [^"[J" array ...] ...)
16:35	lkjklkjj	^no :(
16:39	lkjklkjj	This works fine as its a list of Object
16:39	lkjklkjj	(java.util.Arrays/asList (.toArray (java.util.ArrayList. [4 3 2 1])))
16:41	zackzackzack	When I am writing tests with clojure.test, how can I test to see if a code throws an error?
16:42	lkjklkjj	but this (java.util.Arrays/asList (.array (-> (java.nio.LongBuffer/allocate 4) (.put 4) (.put 3) (.put 2) (.put 1)))) fails with [J cannot be cast to [Ljava.lang.Object;
16:46	TimMc	THat seems... unlikely.
16:55	alexyk	hey -- clojurescriptone wants leon 1.7. How can I have 2 leins coexist?
16:55	alexyk	lein, not león.
16:57	znDuff	alexyk: calling the old one "lein1" is the typical approach.
16:57	alexyk	znDuff: is that enough? just get the old lein driver and call it?
16:57	znDuff	yup.
16:58	wei_	thanks nightfly_
16:59	jamii	http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/post/35721129714/let-me-tell-you-about-fake-geek-guys
16:59	jamii	Ooops
16:59	jamii	I need to just close non-hackerschool tabs :(
17:02	andrewmcveigh	lkjklkjj: I think you want "doto" instead of "->"
17:10	lkjklkjj	still just can't figure out how to call asList correctly (def mla (.array (doto (java.nio.LongBuffer/allocate 4) (.put 4) (.put 3) (.put 2) (.put 1)))) mla #<long[] [J@626287d3> (java.util.Arrays/asList mla) ClassCastException [J cannot be cast to [Ljava.lang.Object;
17:10	amalloy	lkjklkjj: asList takes an Object[]. you don't have an Object[], you have a long[]
17:11	amalloy	there is no way to call asList with the result of (.array someLongBuffer)
17:11	lkjklkjj	Shouldn't it take T whatever T is?
17:12	amalloy	provided that T subclasses Object, which primitives do not
17:12	lkjklkjj	Ah
17:13	lkjklkjj	Thanks I that would explain it
17:13	TimMc	Argh, right.
17:14	terom	(Java compiler accepts Arrays.asList(somePrimitiveArray), but it will create a List with one Object in it what would be your primitive array. It's still probably something you don't want...)
17:28	devn	Is anyone else annoyed w/r/t finding the most recent version of any given modular contrib library?
17:29	hiredman	what do you mean?
17:29	znDuff	devn: Seems like the kind of thing Maven is good at.
17:29	devn	Where do you look if you're about to require, for instance, logging?
17:29	hiredman	by which I mean, no
17:29	devn	To find the most recent version, I mean.
17:29	hiredman	clojure.tools.logging
17:30	devn	What is your workflow to find the latest version you can require?
17:30	hiredman	I don't look for the latest version
17:30	devn	So in project.clj you type what?
17:30	hiredman	devn: it's already in there, and it never changes
17:31	devn	hiredman: Suppose you're on a new project...
17:31	devn	What would you do?
17:31	hiredman	I go to https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging and read the readme
17:31	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging#installation
17:32	devn	Wouldn't it be nice to just hit clojars and see the release there?
17:32	hiredman	devn: why?
17:32	hiredman	I never go to the clojars website
17:32	hiredman	the release is most likely not even in clojars
17:33	hiredman	contrib stuff goes to maven central
17:33	devn	hiredman: Right, how do search maven central?
17:33	hiredman	depends, I genenrally don't though
17:33	devn	Why not?
17:33	hiredman	because I don't search for things that are in maven
17:34	brehaut	devn: https://oss.sonatype.org/index.html
17:34	devn	brehaut: loading... I'm on a plane
17:34	hiredman	I search for a projact or library that does X, and when I find one I go to the installation / usage instructions
17:34	hiredman	project
17:34	brehaut	devn: oh well shit, thats an ext or whateveritscallednow app
17:34	brehaut	devn: but it will let you search central
17:35	devn	hiredman: brehaut: I guess all I'm getting at is that we have these disparate sources and methods for finding current versions for one ecosystem
17:35	hiredman	there is no single ecosystem
17:35	brehaut	i <3 distributed ecosystem
17:35	hiredman	that is a myth
17:35	devn	Depends on how you define ecosystem
17:36	franics_	Hello all - I'm using clojure java.jdbc to run some sql queries against a AWS RDS mysql instance and I'm getting some extremely long query times. SQL reports that the query takes ~4 sec[0] - however the time for the entire process with JDBC is taking ~30 seconds. Has anyone else had issues with this/have thoughts on the matter?
17:36	franics_
17:36	franics_	Please note that I am running the query from an amazon server in the exact same zone as the DB instance.
17:36	franics_
17:36	franics_	http://paste.lisp.org/display/133749 - the code I'm using
17:36	franics_
17:36	franics_	[0] As showing by profiling the query
17:37	devn	"gem install foo" vs "realize that contrib is now modular and each lib has its own github repo, navigate to said github repo and find the most recent version assuming the author updated the readme, but well, you may want to search maven central just in case"
17:37	hiredman	there is no single source of maven info
17:37	devn	that's just weak sauce
17:37	hiredman	there are many maven repos with many different things
17:37	hiredman	no, gems are weak sauce and dumb
17:38	brehaut	devn‽ leins defaults let you do just the same (unless you want to play on bleeding edge contrib snapshots)
17:38	brehaut	its not rocket surgery to set up more repos either
17:38	devn	hiredman: care to qualify that?
17:38	hiredman	devn: you qualify yours first
17:39	devn	i asked first
17:39	hiredman	no
17:40	hiredman	I do not care to qualify that
17:40	devn	look: I just think it's silly that we can't come up with one place to search for patently clojure dependencies.
17:40	devn	i think it is a shitty user experience
17:40	franics_	devn: agreed - I'd love to know if you've any thoughts as to make it better.
17:42	devn	franics_: a new clojars maybe?
17:42	franics_	devn: why would it have to be new - and what precicely would you do to improve on the current formula?
17:43	devn	franics_: it doesn't have to be new -- it could just be building on the existing clojars
17:43	francis	just realized my name was spelled wrong smh
17:43	devn	but what i imagine is: you go to clojars, and you see releases for things that are in maven central that lots of clojure-folk use
17:43	devn	regardless of whether they live on clojars
17:44	devn	tools.logging, for instance. i feel like you should be able to search for that.
17:44	francis	Ah, that's cool - though I'm not sure how you would get data about jars that don't live there
17:44	devn	francis: scrape maven central
17:46	devn	francis: whether anyone likes gems or not, you can at leasr `gem search -r foo` and find meaningful libs. I still don't get how leiningen's search utility is supposed to work or be useful to new users. most tutorials in clojure start out with: get leiningen.
17:46	devn	s/leasr/least
17:48	devn	honestly a lot of this stuff is /done/ and works, it's just that it's usually given a really annoying interface
17:48	devn	For instance: Here's the output of `lein search` with no args...
17:49	devn	Wrong number of arguments to search task.
17:49	devn	Expected ((project query page))
17:49	devn	Super informative, eh?
17:50	francis	devn: Talk to Phil about it - I'm sure if you've got some improvement your willing to implement he'd be more than happy to discuss improving lein
17:50	devn	So you type `lein help search` -- better, but it's still just kind of weird
17:50	francis	*you're
17:50	francis	devn: personally I never use lein search and as such don't feel your pain in this particular situation
17:50	devn	Fair enough -- I'll bring it up at the conj. Hopefully hiredman doesn't beat me up
17:51	devn	They just told me to put away my 'puter. Wheels down RDU.
17:51	devn	Cheers
17:51	francis	devn: have fun at the conj yo
17:51	hiredman	when have I ever beat anyone up?
17:52	francis	I'm sure everyone already heard this before - but...
17:52	francis	Hello all - I'm using clojure java.jdbc to run some sql queries against a AWS RDS mysql instance and I'm getting some extremely long query times. SQL reports that the query takes ~4 sec[0] - however the time for the entire process with JDBC is taking ~30 seconds. Has anyone else had issues with this/have thoughts on the matter?
17:52	francis
17:52	francis	Please note that I am running the query from an amazon server in the exact same zone as the DB instance.
17:52	francis
17:52	francis	http://paste.lisp.org/display/133749 - the code I'm using
17:52	francis
17:52	francis	[0] As showing by profiling the query
17:53	TimMc	francis: Please don't re-paste like that -- I can still see the first copy at the top of my screen.
17:53	francis	TimMc: noted.
17:55	seangrove	Hey guys, wondering about the goog-closure.jar, and where it comes from
17:55	seangrove	Is it centrally maintained, or can I compile my own version? The few I've found so far are missing the md5 libs
17:56	seangrove	(speaking about clojurescript of course)
17:57	ivan	I just put closure-library\closure and closure-library\third_party\closure in my CLASSPATH
17:58	ivan	you can make your own jar with those, I guess
18:02	technomancy	devn: looks like a bug that the project arg is shown in the error message there
18:03	technomancy	they screwed us up by removing the old index format, so there was a while where lein search just wouldn't work
18:05	seangrove	ivan thanks, I'll give that a try, been a rough patch after a great start.
18:08	egghead	hmm, with expectations and with-redefs, does the redef only happen once per file? I'm making some changes to atom in one redef that are showing up in another with-redef
18:11	technomancy	devn: fixed
18:13	egghead	ah, I was confusing redef-state with with-redefs
18:13	egghead	nope, nvm
18:14	alexyk	I have a name conflict in my namespace from imports, how do I rename the colliding symbol away?
18:16	gfredericks	alexyk: they both come from other namespaces?
18:17	alexyk	yep
18:17	gfredericks	the easy way is to not refer at least one of the namespaces -- i.e., give it a prefix
18:17	alexyk	that kind of answered my question :)
18:17	gfredericks	I know refer lets you rename things
18:17	gfredericks	but I don't know the exact syntax
18:18	gfredericks	but prefixing is the normal approach I think
18:18	gfredericks	e.g., (:require [clojure.string :as s])
18:19	Apage43	refer takes a :rename {from-symbol to-symbol ...}
18:19	Apage43	if you really do want to do that
18:22	azkane	is there a function to check if a string is a substring of another? other than using a regex?
18:23	gfredericks	the string class has that I think
18:23	znDuff	azkane: the java standard library's String class has methods for that, yes.
18:24	kofno	(.contains ...)
18:24	kofno	I think
18:24	azkane	oh, i thought there was a clojure function for that, will use the java one thanks!
18:32	alexyk	say I did (use 'bad) and regret it. How do I dissociate bad namespace from current?
18:33	Apage43	alexyk: if you didn't clobber any symbols you can use ns-unmap and ns-publics
18:37	alexyk	(ns-unmap ['user 'server])
18:37	alexyk	ArityException Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$ns-unmap clojure.lang.AFn.throwArity (AFn.java:437)
18:37	alexyk	?
18:37	alexyk	doc ns-unmap says it takes [ns sym]
18:39	alexyk	omg nm
18:39	brehaut	(ns-unmap 'user 'server)
18:40	alexyk	yeah, a case of rusty idiocy/idiotic rustiness
18:40	alexyk	in #Haskell 3 people would have said that already! you guys rock
18:41	brehaut	?
18:42	alexyk	brehaut: rustiness on my part :)
18:43	brehaut	right
18:43	alexyk	I'm glad folks here are helpful in all cases :)
18:43	alexyk	btw there's a remove-ns
18:53	zodiak	stupid question.. I have a defn inside a (-> ..), how do I 'promise' I will defn one of these methods later ?
18:53	zodiak	or rather; (-> f add-behaviors show!) .. and I defn add-behaviors later in the same file
18:54	cgag	declare?
18:54	zodiak	how do I say 'promise it will come later' (ala prototype ?)
18:54	cgag	(declare add-behavior)
18:54	zodiak	aahhh
18:54	zodiak	yup. (doc declare) has it.. awesome ta
18:59	mpan	what's the simplest (not necessarily proper) way to use a jar I have locally?
18:59	znDuff	mpan: ...well, the _proper_ way is to install it in your local Maven repo (the ~/.m2/ cache)
18:59	znDuff	mpan: ...which Maven has a subcommand to do.
19:00	mpan	I wasn't aware I even had maven, except that lein brought it along at some point
19:01	znDuff	well -- see if you have a mvn command
19:01	znDuff	if you don't, you might need to install it.
19:01	mpan	autocomplete for "mv" only has "mv" so I guess I don't
19:02	mpan	is there somewhere I can just drop the jar as a one-off for now?
19:02	mpan	google also suggests I do it "properly" but I've dug myself into a deadline hole
19:05	znDuff	Well -- yes, but you'll have to create a .pom file by hand
19:05	mpan	I was really hoping just to point lein at a path
19:05	mpan	(wouldn't mind hard-coding it for now)
19:05	znDuff	if you want to call it example.com/mylib 1.0, then create ~/.m2/repository/example/com/1.0/
19:07	znDuff	...and drop mylib-1.0.jar in there
19:07	mpan	does that approach require writing more config also? or just make the path and drop the jar?
19:08	znDuff	...and create a mylib-1.0.pom file that looks like https://gist.github.com/4075744
19:08	znDuff	and that's it.
19:08	znDuff	so -- you drop the jar, and you create the tiny little XML file, and that's it.
19:10	mpan	great! thank you!
19:12	thmzlt	anyone having "Invalid memory access" issues with lein and OS X?
19:21	wei_	what's idiomatic clojure to continuously read from a socket?
19:22	gfredericks	without any context at all, I would think you could do that with a lazy seq
19:24	amalloy	wei_: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1054170/clojure-variables-and-looping may be relevant
19:24	seangrove	What's a better/more efficient way to write this function to detect if a string contains a double-byte char: https://gist.github.com/a38106fe15a521288708
19:24	wei_	gfredericks: how do you do that in another thread so the repl is still responsive?
19:25	seangrove	It has to target clojurescript though, so can't use Java utils
19:27	gfredericks	wei_: you don't have to do it in another thread
19:27	wei_	ah, just read through amalloy's link. thanks
19:27	Apage43	seangrove: it's worth noting that any unicode codepoint > 127, not 255, will have a multi-byte encoding
19:28	seangrove	Ah, good point
19:28	seangrove	As far as writing an efficient function though?
19:28	seangrove	Recur keeps it from having to traverse the whole string, but it looks clunky
19:29	dnolen	seangrove: if efficiency is the main concern just right it just like you in JS w/ loop/recur.
19:29	Somelauw	Can't you use filter and check if the resulting lazy-seq has at least 1 element?
19:29	dnolen	er s/right/write
19:29	TimMc	In CLJS, what are the elements of a string seq?
19:30	seangrove	It's not the biggest concern, it's used on short strings, and rarely, but was just curious
19:30	TimMc	(some #(...) string)
19:30	seangrove	TimMc: I believe strings of length-1
19:30	TimMc	Bah, OK.
19:30	Somelauw	like (seq (filter #(> (.charCodeAt % 0) 255))
19:30	TimMc	That spawns a ton of tiny strings.
19:31	dnolen	seangrove: if efficiency doesn't matter then TimMc's suggestion works fine.
19:32	Somelauw	oh, some does that as well
19:33	seangrove	Ah, yes, some, that looks like what I wanted
19:36	seangrove	Thanks TimMc, appreciate it
19:50	mpan	I'm getting a strange error from "lein deps" using a local repo https://www.refheap.com/paste/6688
19:50	mpan	I followed some tutorials but I may have messed up the process midway
19:50	mpan	can someone help me understand what that error is?
19:51	mpan	the jar file is in the same spot as the pom file but it doesn't seem to find it?
19:52	znDuff	mpan: Pasting the POM wouldn't be a bad place to start.
19:52	mpan	here's the pom file https://www.refheap.com/paste/6689
19:53	mpan	the jar and the pom file are both in the same spot in the local repo
19:56	znDuff	your local repo isn't at ~/.m2/repository?
19:56	znDuff	anyhow -- what does your project.clj look like?
19:57	mpan	:repositories {"local" ~(str (.toURI (java.io.File. "mvn_repo")))}
19:57	mpan	under :dependencies, there is [jgap/jgap "3.6.2"]
19:58	mpan	I was following a tutorial that recommended making a new directory for it
19:58	mpan	should I use the one under .m2 instead?
19:58	znDuff	Does it work properly if you don't do that, and use the default local repository?
20:01	mpan	should I just copy the directory structure over?
20:02	znDuff	Sure.
20:05	mpan	it seems to have worked
20:05	mpan	thank you!
20:06	mpan	in the future, should I use mvn's install directly to the default repo?
20:06	znDuff	It's what I do, anyhow.
20:06	znDuff	Wouldn't be surprised if whitespace in the path were an issue.
20:07	znDuff	(with respect to why the other approach wasn't working)
20:08	mpan	in general, should I worry about naming my directories with spaces?
20:10	zodiak	why in a repl does (source foo) not work after I have done; (defn foo "test" [] "x")
20:10	zodiak	it works for (source doc) jst dandy
20:10	zodiak	mpan, yeah.. spaces in dirs/filenames are jst a pain in the tucas
20:11	ivan	zodiak: Clojure doesn't preserve the source for functions it compiles
20:11	ivan	,serializable-fn
20:11	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: serializable-fn in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
20:11	ivan	serializable-fn?
20:11	clojurebot	serializable-fn is a hack for preserving source of a compiled function: https://github.com/technomancy/serializable-fn
20:12	ToxicFrog	zodiak: (source) works by tracking down the original .clj file and reading it, AIUI
20:13	zodiak	spiffy .. ta
20:18	ivan	so (source) is probably a lot of fun if you've changed the .clj file
20:22	amalloy	mpan: definitely don't use spaces in directory/namespace names. they're equivalent to java package names, which are restricted exactly to java identifiers
20:24	znDuff	mpan: In an ideal world, you wouldn't have to worry about it.
20:24	znDuff	mpan: ...in the real world, it tends to expose bugs that would otherwise not trigger.
20:25	znDuff	mpan: ...so -- if I wanted to spend my time finding and fixing bugs in other peoples' software, I'd have my home directory have a space in its path.
20:25	znDuff	amalloy: the context here isn't namespace names, but Maven repo path names.
20:26	zackzackzack	Is there a way to get leiningen to be more verbose? I'm trying to debug a "error in opening zip file" and not having much luck.
20:27	zackzackzack	Found DEBUG=TRUE but it doesn't help much.
20:36	DaReaper5	Hi again! I have another clojure question. This time about hwo to return an input stream in the body of a message.
20:36	DaReaper5	I have the following: :body (io/input-stream (simple.FastReportTest/reTest)
20:37	DaReaper5	simple.FastReportTest/reTest returns a ByteArrayInputStream
20:38	zodiak	zackzackzack, I don't think so, but, without sounding like a troll, write a few tests around the fn that deals with the zip files.. no ?
20:39	DaReaper5	I get the following error: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No implementation of method: :make-input-stream of protocol: #'clojure.java.io/IOFactory found for class: nil
20:39	zackzackzack	zodiak: This is more of a dependency issue than anything else. I'm using leiningen as a tool right now and to write tests would mean I would have to set it up locally and test it here
20:42	DaReaper5	any help would be much appreciated. To sum up my question again: How to i return an input stream properly in the body of a message?
20:45	DaReaper5	The following also does not work: :body (java.io.ByteArrayInputStream. (simple.FastReportTest/reTest)
20:46	DaReaper5	I get a java.lang.NullPointerException
20:46	DaReaper5	However on a local test using the same java code i know null is not being returned.
20:47	DaReaper5	:(
20:48	znDuff	DaReaper5: Can you provide enough context that we can actually reproduce your result?
20:50	DaReaper5	it would take way too much for you to reproduce exporting a dynamically created jasper report. However ALL i want to know is what is the standard convention for returning an input stream that is NOT a file. (I can return files fine)
20:50	znDuff	(ideally, enough context and not the tiniest bit more)
20:51	DaReaper5	to return a ByteArrayInputStream in :body do i do: [:body (java.io.ByteArrayInputStream. (simple.FastReportTest/reTest)], [:body (io/input-stream (simple.FastReportTest/reTest)], or something else
20:52	DaReaper5	[:body (io/input-stream "file.xls") ] works
20:52	DaReaper5	hmm maybe more high level context:
20:52	znDuff	...so, if you're returning something lazy that isn't valid when it's evaluated later, that would be the more usual cause of that kind of issue.
20:53	znDuff	that's not specific to input streams, though
20:53	DaReaper5	i have a clojure web server which responds to api calls. I am creating a test that returns a dynamically created file, but am having issue with ":body"
20:53	DaReaper5	"returning something lazy
20:54	DaReaper5	"?*
20:54	znDuff	"lazy" == "not existing until referenced" (or until read).
20:54	znDuff	...it's very, very easy to make things lazy in Clojure
20:55	znDuff	and if you have something that's lazy and gets evaluated after you're outside of a thread-local scope where valid bindings for it existed, you get problems like what you're describing here
20:55	znDuff	but because you aren't giving us enough context to reproduce, that's guesswork.
20:55	znDuff	You're fixating on the "but it's an input stream!" bit, but if that input stream runs code that depends on thread-local context before it can be read, that code matters. :)
20:56	spear	Hey guys. I'm going to try to not sound like a noob here. A few months ago I was planning to learn clojure, but then I read an article that said it was significantly slower than Java.
20:56	spear	It said that because Clojure generated docstrings (for production as well as development programs, when its only needed for dev), it was slower. Has anything been done about this?
20:56	znDuff	spear: docstrings have nothing to do with it.
20:56	DaReaper5	sorry, (clojure noob) but i thought it was all in one thread because the static java method is being called inside the clojure method
20:57	znDuff	DaReaper5: it's not about the threading, it's about the bindings, and their ability to go out of scope
20:57	znDuff	DaReaper5: ...again, typically. This is, again, guesswork, because you aren't showing code.
20:57	DaReaper5	so i should bind the return of the java method to a variable then provide that variable!!!
20:58	mpan	I have something created with proxy, extending a base class, and when I try to call a method on it, I get nil: https://www.refheap.com/paste/6691
20:58	mpan	I'm expecting an empty vector
20:58	ivan	spear: startup times are not really a problem if you keep your JVM running
20:58	znDuff	DaReaper5: ...waitamoment. If _all_ you're returning is that one value, why not just evaluate to that value?
20:59	DaReaper5	sorry i still am not lisp/clojure minded
21:00	DaReaper5	i was trying to provide the return of the method as a parameter to io/input-stream
21:00	znDuff	Ahh.
21:00	znDuff	Sorry -- I misunderstood your question as something more complex
21:01	DaReaper5	when (as i understand it). In order for the return value/instance to be used it has to be binded to a variable (let)? Right?
21:01	DaReaper5	one second checking
21:01	znDuff	(io/input-stream (simple.FastReportTest/reTest)) calls the static function, and passes its return value to io/input-stream
21:01	mpan	if I change the method I'm overriding to return a string, I still get nil: https://www.refheap.com/paste/6692
21:02	mpan	have I got the syntax for 'proxy' wrong or something?
21:03	DaReaper5	Ugh trying all possible combinations for testing is going to be anoying. https://www.refheap.com/paste/6693
21:03	znDuff	DaReaper5: You don't need to do that -- I misunderstood your question.
21:03	DaReaper5	Could you tell me what i have to do? Should i specify foo2 as a ByteArrayInputStream? Should i replace io/input-stream with ByteArrayInputStream
21:04	znDuff	DaReaper5: ...no need for the let there -- it adds nothing.
21:04	DaReaper5	... xnDuff so i could posibly pass the method call assuming that its return will be used as a parameter?
21:04	spear	ivan, znDuff "My summary is that it spends 95% of the startup-time loading the clojure.core namespace (the clojure.lang.RT class in particular) and filling out all the metadata/docstrings etc for the methods. This process stresses the GC quite a bit, some 130k objects are allocated and 90k free-d during multiple invokes of the GC (3-6 times), the building up of meta data is one big source of this massive object churn."
21:04	spear	From the article
21:04	znDuff	DaReaper5: {:body (io/input-stream (simple.FastReportTest/reTest))} is fine. Initially you were using square brackets rather than curly, which is a rather different thing.
21:05	znDuff	spear: Yes, but that's _startup_ time.
21:05	znDuff	spear: Who cares about startup time? It's runtime that's important for most applications.
21:05	znDuff	spear: ...if you're writing something that needs to start up quickly, Java is usually the wrong language too.
21:05	DaReaper5	oh sorry about that (was just separating things out in the irc)
21:06	DaReaper5	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13140875/intermittent-error-serving-a-binary-file-with-clojure-ring does the following :body (ByteArrayInputStream. pixel-bytes)}))
21:06	DaReaper5	... however this did not work for me
21:06	spear	Is regular runtime comparable to Java?
21:07	znDuff	spear: Clojure isn't exceptionally fast at runtime either for a single thread, but it parallelizes astonishingly well -- I've seen major performance gains via a Clojure rewrite for code running on extremely parallel hardware.
21:07	mpan	I'm so confused. If I make an proxy for j.l.Object it works fine. If I make a proxy for some strange class with a type parameter T, it gives me nil instead of what my overriding method should be returning.
21:07	znDuff	spear: ...so -- if you're doing something where you can take advantage of having Clojure's STM available instead of locking, and will be running on lots of cores, Clojure is a good fit. Otherwise, if you're performance-bound, probably not.
21:07	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
21:07	mpan	Is my issue the fact that the class uses generics?
21:08	toofishes	hi everyone. i'm trying to do something like this (reduced into a standalone one-liner), but the apply isn't working as i hoped. (map apply [#(Integer/parseInt % 16) #(Long/parseLong % 16) #(Short/parseShort % 16)] ["a0" "a0" "a0"])
21:08	toofishes	ArityException Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$eval419$fn clojure.lang.AFn.throwArity (AFn.java:437)
21:08	DaReaper5	znDuff, http://grokbase.com/t/gg/clj-noir/1234t3bx3g/noir-hooking-gzip-middleware-in-noir does :body (java.io.ByteArrayInputStream. (.toByteArray out))})
21:08	DaReaper5	but that did not work for me either (because it is practially the same)
21:08	DaReaper5	so i come here to see if i am being stupid with syntax
21:09	spear	Ah I see
21:09	spear	thanks, znDuff
21:09	znDuff	DaReaper5: The tiny snippets you give us aren't obviously wrong, but they lack enough context to evaluate.
21:10	znDuff	DaReaper5: ...I mean, some web frameworks expect the return value to be a dict with a :body key, but you haven't even told us what you're using.
21:10	DaReaper5	znDuff ... but i just want to return an input stream :P. Not sure what else i should provide. Shouldn't this be basic for clojure web servers?
21:10	mattmoss	(doc juxt)
21:10	clojurebot	"([f] [f g] [f g h] [f g h & fs]); Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the juxtaposition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, and returns a vector containing the result of applying each fn to the args (left-to-right). ((juxt a b c) x) => [(a x) (b x) (c x)]"
21:10	mattmoss	toofishes: Take a look at juxt.
21:11	DaReaper5	however, most of the example i fine are returning static files (gah!)
21:11	DaReaper5	examples*
21:11	znDuff	DaReaper5: Build a reproducer that doesn't require your huge dependency chain. You won't be able to get help that isn't guesswork until you can do that.
21:12	znDuff	DaReaper5: ...it shouldn't be that hard to find a non-file inputstream -- the standard library includes some memory-backed ones, after all.
21:13	DaReaper5	could you reference me a non-file inputsream :)
21:13	znDuff	I search through the Java standard library docs when I need such a thing
21:13	znDuff	don't keep it all off the top of my head.
21:13	mpan	oh my gosh, I just did the same thing twice and it worked only the second time
21:13	DaReaper5	okie dokie
21:14	DaReaper5	true
21:14	mpan	I'm a bit scared now
21:14	gfredericks	the javadocs list "Direct Know Subclasses" when you look at inputstream
21:14	gfredericks	s/Know/Known/
21:14	toofishes	mattmoss: i'm not looking at applying each function to each arg, it looks like that is what juxt does? more like [(functionA argA) (funcB argB) (funcC argC)]
21:14	mpan	my best explanation is that I'm not properly loading my changes into the repl
21:16	mattmoss	toofishes: Then maybe just... (map (fn [f a] (f a)) [fs...] [as...])
21:16	mattmoss	toofishes: The function you map with can have multiple arguments... one arg per collection provided.
21:16	DaReaper5	hmm something different and interesting: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Class cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
21:16	DaReaper5	new error
21:16	DaReaper5	progres!?
21:17	toofishes	mattmoss: oh, geez. that sounds so easy now.
21:17	toofishes	thank you!
21:17	mattmoss	,(map (fn [f x y] (f x y)) [+ -] [1 2] [3 4])
21:17	clojurebot	(4 -2)
21:18	toofishes	,(map (fn [f a] (f a)) [#(Integer/parseInt % 16) #(Long/parseLong % 16) #(Short/parseShort % 16)] ["a0" "a0" "a0"])
21:18	clojurebot	(160 160 160)
21:18	mattmoss	wootage
21:19	mattmoss	,(map (fn [f a] (let [x (f a)] [x (class x)]) [#(Integer/parseInt % 16) #(Long/parseLong % 16) #(Short/parseShort % 16)] ["a0" "a0" "a0"])
21:19	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
21:19	mattmoss	oops
21:19	mattmoss	,(map (fn [f a] (let [x (f a)] [x (class x)])) [#(Integer/parseInt % 16) #(Long/parseLong % 16) #(Short/parseShort % 16)] ["a0" "a0" "a0"])
21:19	clojurebot	([160 java.lang.Integer] [160 java.lang.Long] [160 java.lang.Short])
21:20	DaReaper5	ITS ALIVE! IT WORKED
21:20	DaReaper5	wow
21:20	mattmoss	Bwhahaha?
21:20	DaReaper5	:body foo2
21:20	DaReaper5	thats it
21:20	DaReaper5	no bs needed before it
21:48	mpan	I introduced a new local dependency, ran lein deps and it succeeded, but I'm still getting a classnotfoundexception at runtime
21:48	mpan	How should I debug this?
21:49	mpan	the class is in the jar and the jar is in the place I expect under ~/.m2/repository/
21:50	yedi	http://blog.wolfram.com/2012/11/14/code-length-measured-in-14-languages/
21:51	yedi	clojure trashes everything except for mathematica
21:55	mpan	gfredericks: supposedly that's what wolfram alpha is, approximately
21:55	mpan	the thought of it confuses me as well
21:56	mpan	ah! second time today! doing the same thing twice yields different results! first incorrect then correct
21:56	gfredericks	my point is that I think mathematica is rather special-purpose
21:56	mpan	if only I knew where I was actually differing
21:58	mpan	gfredericks: I suppose wolfram themselves have a vested interest in the business success of it
21:59	mpan	I certainly don't imagine myself waking up tomorrow and thinking to myself... hm, I'll write a web-app in mathematica/matlab/etc
22:44	yedi	i swear the process for getting clojure/swank/lein working with emacs is a mechanism for filtering out idiots from the clojure community
22:45	brehaut	yedi: nrepl+lein2 is much easier to get going than swank
22:46	brehaut	see also http://technomancy.us/163
22:46	ivan	Emacs itself is the great filter
22:46	yedi	sweet, thanks
22:47	brehaut	ivan: hmm. it's a filter alright, but swank is/was an especially weird piece of the puzzle
22:51	azkane	so is there an advantage in using swank over nrepl?
22:52	brehaut	you like pain?
22:52	brehaut	theres some features that swank supports that nrepl doesnt have yet
22:52	brehaut	emphasis on yet
22:53	brehaut	from memory i think swank has some better debugging / stepping stuff?
22:53	brehaut	i never used it though, so i cant say
22:55	Sgeo__	Isn't there some ritz thing? I haven't tried it though. I should
23:00	brehaut	Sgeo__: thats a name i have seen but have no familiarity with
23:05	amalloy	ritz does indeed have more features than stock swank/slime. IME it was a lot harder to set up, and the payoff wasn't really that big because the bytecode and line numbers the compiler generates confuse the heck out of the debugger
23:12	Sgeo__	Is it worth to set up over plain nREPL.el?
23:30	yedi	whats the best/simplest way to do line by line file processing?
23:37	hyPiRion	simplest is probably line-seq
23:37	hyPiRion	,(doc line-seq)
23:37	clojurebot	"([rdr]); Returns the lines of text from rdr as a lazy sequence of strings. rdr must implement java.io.BufferedReader."
23:38	yedi	cool, ty
23:38	hyPiRion	just be a bit careful with it though - as it is lazy, you cannot close the buffer before you've actually finished reading all the lines.
23:39	hyPiRion	you could wrap it in a doall if you know you're going to process all the lines in the file.
23:42	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/4075459