#clojure – 2012-11-04

2012-11-04

00:13	hughfdjackson	is it convention to use dynamic scoping only in the case where you have some kind of impure function or state-holding var for testability
00:13	hughfdjackson	or are there other common uses?
00:13	hughfdjackson	(elisp style configuration injection via scope? :P)
00:13	bbloom	hughfdjackson: configuration is a pretty common use case
00:14	Raynes	hughfdjackson: Every time I see your name I think I'm reading "hughjackman" and I get all excited.
00:14	hughfdjackson	haha
00:14	hughfdjackson	I get disappointed
00:14	hughfdjackson	i don't know if i exist in my own google bubble now, but it used to ask me if i meant hugh jackman whenever i was curious if people could find me by that
00:16	hughfdjackson	bbloom: that's interesting; for some reason i thought that'd be a 'left behind' practice
00:16	bbloom	hughfdjackson: left behind by what?
00:17	hughfdjackson	the community
00:17	bbloom	hughfdjackson: i mean: replaced by what?
00:17	bbloom	hughfdjackson: consider a client library for an http api. It would be pretty reasonable to have (def ^:dynamic api-endpoint "http://api.example.com")
00:18	bbloom	you could then pretty easily rebind that for different environments
00:18	hughfdjackson	totally :) it was not a rational thought
00:18	bbloom	(binding [api-endpoint "http://api.example-test-server.com"] ...)
00:19	dnolen	hughfdjackson: it's also a useful way to push information deep into a program with the insane tedium of the threading that value everywhere.
00:19	hughfdjackson	in answer to your 'by what' question: configuration injected into higher-order functions was my first guess
00:19	bbloom	for sure! consider current-user :-)
00:19	hughfdjackson	:P i can see how writing that way would be a totally PITA though
00:20	bbloom	it's common in web apps to have a request var too
00:20	hughfdjackson	that holds? O.o
00:20	bbloom	the current request....
00:20	hughfdjackson	oop, we're in a one-thread spawned per user model?
00:21	bbloom	not necessarily
00:21	bbloom	but there is only one executing piece of code per thread... kinda by the nature of um... threads....
00:21	bbloom	see bound-fn
00:21	bbloom	,(doc bound-fn)
00:21	clojurebot	"([& fntail]); Returns a function defined by the given fntail, which will install the same bindings in effect as in the thread at the time bound-fn was called. This may be used to define a helper function which runs on a different thread, but needs the same bindings in place."
00:23	hughfdjackson	smells like closing over dynamic scope
00:23	hughfdjackson	:D crazyness
00:23	bbloom	that's what it is
00:25	hughfdjackson	:) thanks for the context, it really helps
00:29	rlb	Raynes: happen to know of anything like refheap for small images, even with a really short lifespan (for example, I have a 10k incanter plot I wanted to show someone)?
00:30	rlb	(someone for whome it wouldn't easier for me to just post the source...)
00:30	rlb	s/whome/whom/
00:30	Raynes	Is there a reason you've ruled out sites like imgur?
00:31	rlb	Raynes: ignorance?
00:31	Raynes	:p
00:31	Raynes	imgur is pretty nice. Don't think it requires registration.
00:31	Raynes	exifhost is something a friend works on, but I think it requires registration. It has the benefit of showing exif data, but I highly doubt you care in this case.
00:31	rlb	yeah -- thanks that might be exactly what I want.
00:32	rlb	right -- this is something they're welcome to trash an hour after I post it (and probably should)
00:33	rlb	that reminds me I still mean to contact the incanter author about ssh -X/Y being broken -- see if it's something that can be fixed...
00:34	bbloom	rlb: imgur preserves images only if they get traffic
00:35	bbloom	rlb: which the FAQ apparently says 1 view per six months is all that's needed, heh
00:35	rlb	saw that
00:40	hughfdjackson	cron job? :D
00:41	jyu	does anybody use the vimclojure, how to arrow up the prvious expression and it seems the C-CR does not work.
01:16	bbloom	jyu: the vimclojure maintainer is very responsive on his google group
01:15	amalloy	Raynes: i think for an image host, showing exif data is an anti-feature
01:15	Raynes	amalloy: I'm not sure what you mean.
01:16	amalloy	Raynes: if you upload a picture to the web with exif data, your chance of being murdered by a stranger goes up by at least 300%
01:16	amalloy	because it has location and all kinds of stuff
01:17	Raynes	amalloy: There is more than just location data there. Data about the camera is what is important, and the site was authored by a guy interested in high profile photography (who knows other people interested in it as well).
01:18	Raynes	Also, people tweet with locations, put it on their facebook statuses, etc.
01:18	Raynes	Nobody seems to care about privacy anymore.
01:33	notsonerdysunny	why does clojure.core.Vec (created by doing (vector-of :long 0) ) not implement IEditableCollection which would enable transient on the vector ? or am I missing something?
01:53	amalloy	my guess: because transients require work, and primitive vectors are mostly ignored
01:57	Sgeo	amalloy, what's the best way to learn about how the data structures in Clojure work, reading the source or reading some sort of documentation?
01:57	amalloy	$google higher order persistent clojure vector
01:57	lazybot	[Understanding Clojure's PersistentVector ... - Higher-Order] http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/02/01/understanding-clojures-persistentvector-implementation/
01:57	Sgeo	Cool, thanks
01:58	amalloy	any more detail than that, probably you want to look for anything about array-mapped hash tries, especially by phil bagwell
03:40	_francis	I need to use LaTeX in a seesaw (swing application) - does anyone know of a good starting point/have any useful information on the matter?
04:21	Anonny	A clojurescript vector is cljs.core/PersistentVector, a lists is cljs.core/List... any idea what a string is?
04:22	Anonny	For defmethod purposes.
04:27	TEttinger	is there a list of companies that have announced that they use clojure?
04:29	Anonny	Don't think it's up to date but http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Clojure+Success+Stories
04:31	Raynes	Not so much that it isn't up-to-date as much as it isn't all inclusive. If companies haven't added themselves to it, they're not going to be listed. It's still a big resource.
04:33	TEttinger	thanks
04:34	TEttinger	I love Clojure, but I am really pretty early in the learning process still
04:34	TEttinger	haven't written a macro yet
04:34	Anonny	It's amazing what you can do with only functions.. :)
04:34	TEttinger	it's a very powerful/succinct language.
04:35	lpvb	TEttinger: there's also clojure job listings to tell you what companies use clojure: http://www.indeed.com/q-Clojure-jobs.html
04:37	Anonny	This CLJS is driving me nuts, though. I can catch vectors with (defmethod xxx cljs.core/PersistentVector [etc] (etc)).. But I have no ideas how to make a defmethod for cljs strings.
04:38	Anonny	Feels like I'm missing something obvious.
04:47	Anonny	Aaaand the answer was js/String
05:17	wingy	TEttinger: will you go with clj?
05:22	TEttinger	wingy: I haven't programmed very much lately, but when I write little things it usually seems to be in clj
05:23	wingy	its the perfect language
05:24	Raynes	"I don't always program, but when I do, I prefer ClojuresScript."
05:25	Anonny	That's what I was thinking too.. :D
05:26	wingy	yeah love cljs
05:26	wingy	but its so heavy
05:27	wingy	isn't it compiled to js like coffeescript so it won't load other stuff to the browser?
05:28	Anonny	I don't understand that question. Could you clarify?
05:28	wingy	it seems to load a lot of code into the browser
05:29	wingy	it compiles to a big js file
05:29	Anonny	It is compiled to JS. But if you compile it correctly (advanced mode) the closure compiler should trim out everything you don't use.
05:29	Anonny	That makes it significantly smaller.
05:30	wingy	if i use advanced mode, can i still use third party libs in my code?
05:30	wingy	or will the variable names be changed
05:31	Anonny	I'm fuzzy on that part honestly. Yes, they'll be changed unless you mark them not to be changed or some such.
05:31	Anonny	This might answer.
05:31	Anonny	http://lukevanderhart.com/2011/09/30/using-javascript-and-clojurescript.html
05:32	wingy	yeah i remember that one
05:38	Anonny	Might also take a look at how jayq wraps jquery since Chris had to figure out how to mix advanced comp and an external library for that.
06:15	yarn	Hi everyone, how do I correctly use a google closure aware library from clojurescript? I tried :libs ["resources/public/js/boob-moog-google-doodle/deps.js"] in my project.clj file, to no avail
06:15	yarn	(trying to require the Moog Google Doodle: http://code.google.com/p/bob-moog-google-doodle/
06:16	yarn	I get an exception "goog.require could not find: doodle.moog.Moog"
06:16	joro	if I do (reduce clojure.set/intersection a b c) do I gain perforamnce if I order a b, and c increasingly by size
06:24	ambrosebs	Is there a high res Clojure logo around?
06:25	ambrosebs	Actually, I think the one I found might just be enough.
06:25	ambrosebs	nvm :)
06:26	wingy	ambrosebs: what are you going to do with it?
06:26	ambrosebs	Put in on a poster advertising Typed Clojure for uni. Rich already gave the thumbs up thankfully.
06:28	ambrosebs	Is there an official source for a large version?
06:29	wingy	ambrosebs: what is _typed_ clojure?
06:29	ambrosebs	https://github.com/frenchy64/typed-clojure
06:30	ambrosebs	Clojure + optional type system
06:30	ambrosebs	WIP, but has been my honours project.
06:32	wingy	looks cool
06:33	ambrosebs	:)
06:34	wingy	can typing reduce bugs?
06:35	wingy	but on the other hand the code grows
06:35	Iceland_jack	Does it wingy?
06:35	Iceland_jack	That depends on a lot of things
06:36	ambrosebs	wingy: IMO it helps the most when you've got higher-order code. Fns taking Fns taking...
06:39	ambrosebs	wingy: but I think the benefits of static typing speak for themself. Whether Typed Clojure can bring most of the benefits is yet to be seen.
06:39	Bodil	ambrosebs: I don't remember where I found it originally, but I've got an SVG logo here if you don't mind inkscaping off the opacity etc: https://raw.github.com/bodil/catnip/master/resources/catnip/m/clojure-glyph.svg
06:41	ambrosebs	Bodil: I googled the name of the file and found the original, cheers!
06:50	ejackson	ambrosebs: how did the seminar go ?
06:51	ambrosebs	ejackson: went a bit too fast and had some extra time. Except I realised afterward it was because I forgot my last 2 slides :P
06:51	ambrosebs	Oh well, good experience.
06:51	ambrosebs	Snuck in a quick demo too.
06:51	ejackson	nice one!
06:51	ejackson	good validation for your work
06:52	ambrosebs	ejackson: planning to do more demoing at the conj.
06:53	ejackson	yeah - demos are the key to drive adoption, and hence contributions
06:56	ambrosebs	ejackson: could I send you this poster once it's done to check?
07:02	ejackson	ambrosebs: sure thing
07:09	meredydd	What do I need to do to make (run-tests) notice my tests?
07:10	meredydd	I'm in a namespace, I've just done:
07:10	meredydd	(deftest x (is (= 0 1)))
07:10	meredydd	(run-tests)
07:10	meredydd	...and it says "Ran 0 tests containing 0 assertions"
07:11	meredydd	Oh, God, never mind.
07:11	meredydd	<-- fool.
07:55	flying_rhino	hello
07:56	flying_rhino	I would like to know what IDE solutions do we have for Clojure? I tried enclojure (netbeans version) but it is only available for clojure 1.2. What is there for 1.4 version?
07:57	flying_rhino	developing without IDE is PITA.
07:58	rodnaph	most ppl use emacs i think flying_rhino. i use vim. i've heard intellij has some decent integration if u need an IDE.
07:58	rodnaph	IDE's won't give you any more integration than emacs though, it's pretty complete.
07:59	_ulises	+1 for emacs
07:59	flying_rhino	okay is there 'batteries included' emacs or vim packaged with newest clojure?
07:59	rodnaph	u can try an emacs starter kit like - https://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit
08:02	flying_rhino	this 'starter-kit-lisp' thing will make it possible to work with Clojure?
08:03	rodnaph	not used it myself but i think so, should include this somewhere - https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
08:10	flying_rhino	I think you guys really need better getting started page
08:12	Scriptor	there's been a lot of discussion on that, but I think the concensus is that clojure.org is terrible for beginners
08:12	antares_	flying_rhino: see http://clojure-doc.org
08:12	flying_rhino	Scriptor: you are a guy that buit pharen?
08:13	Scriptor	flying_rhino: yep
08:13	flying_rhino	Scriptor: big fan
08:13	Scriptor	thanks :)
08:13	flying_rhino	Scriptor: didn't have chance to use it much, but I like the idea
08:14	Scriptor	no worries, I'm still not sure whether it will every see much serious use
08:14	Scriptor	but it's fun to play around with, at the very least
08:14	joro	do you use unit tests, or TDD while writing clojure?
08:14	flying_rhino	but seriously, Clojure needs some sort of one click install
08:15	rodnaph	Scriptor: that looks neat, i was playing around with the same idea myself a while ago - https://github.com/rodnaph/clj-php
08:15	flying_rhino	Python has it and the only obstacle for clojure is that it builds on top of Java. But that's not a reason enough
08:16	rodnaph	flying_rhino: the "one click install" for clojure is installing leiningen - http://leiningen.org/
08:16	Scriptor	rodnaph: nice, I started it before I knew clojure well at all, so it's far from a clojure -> php compiler
08:16	Scriptor	so that niche is still open :)
08:17	rodnaph	yah same here, it was very much to learn the ideas.
08:17	rodnaph	i stopped though because i think the idea has really been superseded by clojurescript (which will have pluggable backends soon i think)
08:18	Scriptor	didn't know about the pluggable backends
08:18	rodnaph	don't think it's landed yet, but it's defo in the works. might be part of the clojure-in-clojure effort.
08:18	Scriptor	I think someone here mentioned that semantically, you'll never have a "true" clojure to php compiler, since php has mutable strings
08:18	Scriptor	so that guarantee that strings will never change isn't there
08:19	Scriptor	which messes up equality, and so on
08:19	pau\|c	Hi, I've spent a few hours fighting with NoClassDefFound and ClassNotFound exceptions. I've been playing with various combinations of noir, clj-http, monger and chesire.
08:19	pau\|c	Any idea whether there are incompatibilites between those libs, or whether there's something wrong with my setup (I've cleared out ~/.m2 a few times)
08:20	flying_rhino	well php has mutable everything
08:20	antares_	pau\|c: please post full stack trace and your project.clj
08:20	flying_rhino	so I don't really see why strings are the problem
08:20	antares_	pau\|c: that exception cannot be caused by "incompatibilities"
08:21	Scriptor	flying_rhino: it's somewhat theoretical
08:21	rodnaph	i don't think the mutable part of php will cause any problems, it'll just be a detail of the host. ie. you can mutate java stuffs in clojure.
08:21	flying_rhino	if you don't give people means to change strings from withing implementation, I don't get why would it matter that strings are mutable
08:21	flying_rhino	*within
08:21	Scriptor	but essentially, it means that if you compare two strings that should be the same, they might not actually be the same
08:21	rodnaph	(not that i really think anyone should invest much time in trying to get a good clj to php compiler)
08:22	Scriptor	strings can be changed by other php functions that you can't control
08:23	pau\|c	antares:_ http://pastebin.com/QTgxg0ws
08:25	pau\|c	I get the same stack trace with noir 1.3.0-beta10
08:34	pau\|c	antares_: updated version, where I'm certain everything is 'clean' https://gist.github.com/4011912
08:35	antares_	pau\|c: are you using Monger 1.3.2 or earlier?
08:35	pau\|c	1.3.1
08:35	antares_	pau\|c: then upgrade to 1.3.3: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/1.3.x-stable/ChangeLog.md
08:36	antares_	pau\|c: http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2012/10/31/monger-1-dot-3-3-is-released/
08:37	pau\|c	antares_: bah, not sure why I was on 1.3.1. will upgrade, thanks.
08:37	antares_	the problem is that if data.json not available, extending its protocols is tricky and before 1.3.2 it wasn't done correctly
08:37	antares_	but 1.3.3 will use cheshire, data.json 0.1.x or data.json 0.2.x, whichever is available
08:37	pau\|c	ok
08:46	flying_rhino	rodnaph: from what I understand Lenanigen is build tool for clojure, it is not one click install
08:48	rodnaph	flying_rhino: it's kind of more than just a build tool, aside from java it's all you need to get started with clojure, which is why i suggested it. there is also lighttable which you might find interesting as a complete solution http://app.kodowa.com/playground
08:49	Scriptor	it's not a gui installer, but it can knock out two birds with one stone
08:49	Scriptor	since you'll likely need it for any serious projects later on, in addition to getting clojure
08:50	raek	flying_rhino: Leiningen is for clojure what the 'python' and the 'virtualenv' commands are for Python
08:50	raek	Clojure is distributed as a library
08:50	raek	so you need more stuff to actually use it
08:51	raek	it's too bad Leiningen hasn't been officially endorsed as a part of Clojure
08:51	raek	95% of all clojure programmers use Leiningen
08:51	flying_rhino	okay now that I have Lein, what now?
08:52	rodnaph	and the other 5% probably don't have keyboards.
08:52	raek	you create a project (yes, even for trivial stuff) and declare which version of clojure you want to use
08:52	raek	and any libraries you want to use
08:53	raek	then you can run "lein repl" in the project dir to start playing around
08:54	raek	flying_rhino: also: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/TUTORIAL.md
09:05	mammoth	my connection died
09:06	mammoth	okay, one more thing: is there command prompt for windows that doesn't completely and absolutely sucks?
09:06	callen	I think I'm close to being able to put to words what I don't like about enlive.
09:07	classcast	mammoth: there is the Windows PowerShell
09:07	mammoth	I don't think they have Windows 7 64 bit version
09:07	mdaines	I'm trying to invoke a function four times. What's the idiomatic way to do that?
09:07	mammoth	ah they do
09:08	classcast	it's .Net - I dont think it would be that limited
09:08	mammoth	nevermind found it
09:08	rodnaph	mdaines: dotimes maybe? depends exactly what ur doing though probably.
09:08	mammoth	thanks
09:08	mammoth	thanks, classcast
09:10	mdaines	Using a DataInputStream and want to read 4 bytes. I want each to be an element in the returned seq
09:10	classcast	mdaines: (repeatedly 4 (.readByte dis))
09:11	classcast	needs to be a function thus: (repeatedly 4 #(.readByte dis))
09:13	mdaines	excellent, thanks classcast
09:17	leoncame`	how can I check if a symbol is a macro or not?
09:21	classcast	leoncame`: you can resolve the symbol to its variable and check its metadata for :macro true
09:21	goracio	hi there is there any with fluent english and good clojure knowledge i wrote some articles about clojur and need an reviewer :)
09:22	snake-john	Hi I'm trying to use the reducers library .
09:22	snake-john	(require '[clojure.core.reducers :as r])
09:22	Hodapp	goracio: PM me.
09:22	snake-john	(into [] (r/mapcat my-fn coll)
09:24	classcast	snake-john: I guess `into` will have to do with your question ;)
09:24	leoncame`	classcast: Cool.
09:25	snake-john	sorry I'v got code like (into [] (r/mapcat my-fn coll) working sequently. I now want to make it parrellel. But my col has only 15 elements.
09:26	snake-john	I see that fold which is used by r/map uses a default of 512 to decide if fork-join is going to be used
09:27	ejackson	that's right
09:27	snake-john	How do get map to use a splitting factor of 1
09:28	ejackson	dunno actually ;)
09:28	ejackson	are you sure fork-join is what you want ? Perhaps pmap or agents are better ?
09:29	classcast	snake-john: do your 15 tasks use up enough time so that this is really worth it?
09:30	snake-john	Well I just playing around and want to experiment…. but each collection element transform is doing quite some work...
09:30	classcast	snake-john: I just wanted to save you some time in case they might be pretty quick anyway ;)
09:31	snake-john	I am working just on a chess program and each item in the collection is a chess piece and the map fns calc the possible moves
09:33	snake-john	so far the reducers have helped me a lot because I do not need to create in-between vectors
09:36	classcast	snake-john: humm I wonder why they have `n` on the low-level anyway if they just default it to 512 and do not expose it to the highlevel functions
09:38	snake-john	I think one is supposed to right a custom map function. but unfornatlly all helper functions are private so its a lot of work
09:45	classcast	snake-john: I guess that it's due to the alpha status ;)
09:50	snake-john	@classcast I think your right…. anyway its a great library ! do you have any idea when clojure 1.5 will officially come out?
09:53	classcast	1.4 had 7 betas after the alphas
09:55	snake-john	oh so it could take another year...
09:56	classcast	snake-john: maybe not that long but probably several months. there is hardly any info on deadline if there are any
09:56	Deston	Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong with this exercise from the clojure koans? Why does the output contain "street-address, city, state" and not the values? http://pastebin.com/w69Squev
09:58	classcast	Deston: your quoted list expression is wrong. you want the values of the symbols in the list and not the unevaluated symbols
10:01	Deston	Interesting. It works if it's a vector instead of a list.
10:01	classcast	Deston: try that one http://pastebin.com/G1miy9R5
10:02	classcast	&(let [a 1 b 2 c "hello"] '[a b c])
10:02	lazybot	⇒ [a b c]
10:02	classcast	Deston: as you can see above it wont work with the vector either
10:03	Scriptor	you don't need to quote the vector
10:03	Deston	yeah, I didn't quote the vector and it did work.
10:03	classcast	well thats something different ;)
10:03	Scriptor	lists need to be quoted to prevent them from getting evaluated as a function call
10:03	classcast	[a b c] = (vector a b c), '(a b c) = (list 'a 'b 'c)
10:04	classcast	lesson: a quoted list works only for constant lists as abbreviation ;)
10:05	classcast	Deston: but as you can see in my example, your code was too complicated anyway
10:06	Deston	yeah. I'm just working with what I've seen in previous koans exercises.
10:08	Deston	Thanks for the assistance.
10:16	duck1123	Is there an easy way to expose the "/META-INF/resources/webjars/" directory of any of the jars on my classpath as static resources with compojure?
10:16	duck1123	I haven't been able to get it right yet
10:17	weavejester	duck1123: Anything on the classpath can be exposed using route/resources
10:17	weavejester	duck1123: But I'm not sure that /META-INF/resources is on the classpath
10:18	duck1123	So would specifying that in lein make it work? Or would that only be for that project?
10:19	weavejester	Specifying what in Lein?
10:19	duck1123	I'm wondering if there's something I can specify to make sure that that path is added to the cp
10:19	duck1123	let me try some thigss first
10:20	weavejester	This is in a war file, right?
10:20	duck1123	yeah, from http://www.webjars.org/
10:21	duck1123	actually wait. I'm not deploying a war
10:21	duck1123	I'm running an aleph server started from lein run
10:22	weavejester	So why is there anything in META-INF?
10:23	duck1123	All these jars have a different js lib in META-INF (for the benefit of setups that ARE packaged as wars)
10:23	duck1123	I'm trying to see if I can make use of it from compojure
10:23	weavejester	Okay, so these are jars designed for use with Java servlets
10:23	weavejester	And not Clojure
10:23	duck1123	right
10:24	weavejester	Try loading up a REPL
10:24	weavejester	and using the clojure.java.io/resource function
10:24	weavejester	To see if "META-INF/resources/webjars/some/file/you/know/exists" returns a URL or nil
10:25	duck1123	ah ha! I've been trying with an initial /
10:53	snake-john	@classcast I think I found out how-to override the 512 default. Instead of using reduce I just have to use fold with which I can supply an n. But as you thought my code runs actually slower. because n probably needs to be pretty large to overcome the Thread overhead
10:54	joro	if I do an intersection of two sorted sets, does the core algorithm utilize the fact that, you can do the intersection by choosing a subset of a larger set using min and max of the smallest set?
10:55	classcast	snake-john: ah nice.
11:30	Hodapp	goracio: 'They are fine frameworks and languges but all of them praise OOP paradigm. I have no big experience with programming but i can say that this concept is overcomplicated from my point of view. I even think that people just didn’t understand objects concept and started using it in another way, mostly wrong way. I could say that nowadays it’s Class programming.'
11:30	Hodapp	yeah, that's pretty much true...
11:35	joro	Hadapp: who wrote that quote?
11:55	Hodapp	joro: goracio did :)
11:58	joro	clojure-experience has been very interesting. I'm still a newbie yet, but when the codebase has increased, I find to reuse much more than in any other language.
11:59	goracio	well i'am wrting series of articles about clojure and clojurescript will anounce it soon on clojure forum
11:59	antares_	goracio: make sure your blog is aggregated by planet.clojure.in
12:00	joro	I've not used statically typed FP-lanugages for any serious things, though. I do not know how clojure compares to them.
12:00	goracio	antares_: ok will check that - now it's on tumblr
12:12	mdaines	Any recommendations for dealing with byte constants? Writing a chain of (cond) seems clunkier than it does in Java.
12:16	bbloom	mdaines: dealing with them in what way?
12:16	mdaines	Parsing in binary data. First byte indicates what to do with the next few bytes.
12:17	antoineB	hello, what is the most efficient (distinct (sort a)) or (sort (distinct a)) ?
12:18	rlb	mdaines: do you mean cond or case?
12:19	rlb	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/case
12:19	mdaines	Actually, I didn't see there was a case.
12:19	rlb	might be more what you want
12:19	mdaines	Thanks.
12:19	rlb	certainly
13:35	dnolen	ambrosebs: poster looks good to me!
13:36	ambrosebs	dnolen: thanks!
13:40	callen	dnolen: liked your talk on "Clojure for Schemers"
13:40	callen	dnolen: the audience seemed like they were being a little defensive though.
13:45	jonasen	What's the difference between VarExpr and TheVarExpr in the Clojure compiler?
13:45	jonasen	ambrosebs: ^^ maybe you know that one :)
13:47	ambrosebs	Isn't TheVarExpr (var a)
13:47	ambrosebs	But what is VarExpr... :)
13:48	ambrosebs	Possibly (foo ...) vs. (var foo)
13:48	dnolen	callen: that was sound long ago, I forget what about?
13:48	dnolen	that was so long ago I mean
13:49	jonasen	ambrosebs: That's probably it. Thanks
13:49	ambrosebs	jonasen: np
13:49	ambrosebs	jonasen: what are you doing so deep?
13:50	jonasen	ambrosebs: Just playing around... I'd like to port http://github.com/jonase/scape to jvm clojure instead of just clojurescript
13:52	ambrosebs	is `analyze` useful?
13:56	jonasen	ambrosebs: it is, I have created an "lite" version of analyze for this project.. just to understand the underpinnings better
13:56	ambrosebs	jonasen: sweet
13:57	jonasen	I really wanted to enhance the analysis phase for codeq.. but that turned out to be much harder then anticipated
13:58	ForSpareParts	Could someone help me debug this? http://pastebin.com/m4dGy11f
13:58	ambrosebs	how does it work?
13:59	ForSpareParts	It's supposed to create a class using the bundled java hooks and a function that's been passed in
13:59	ForSpareParts	but when you call it from another namespace, there are collision problems.
13:59	dnolen	jonasen: what was so challenging?
14:08	jonasen	dnolen: the short version: macros get in the way
14:11	tomoj	(fn [part] (memoize (fn [& args] (d/tempid part))))
14:12	tomoj	or (fn [] (memoize (fn [part & args] (d/tempid part)))) ?
14:15	jonasen	I tried to use the clojurescript analyzer to add codeq support for clojurescript (with a more advanced analysis phase than the clojure version)... The codeq Analyzer protocol works on one source file at a time calling "git cat sha ..." and passing the source text to the Analyzer protocol functions. This doesn't play nice with e.g., https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/analyzer.clj#L669 and https://github.com/clojure/cloj
14:16	dnolen	jonasen: that line in the CLJS analyzer an optimization thing, we could probably make that optional.
14:16	dnolen	is an
14:18	Sgeo_	,(let [-> inc] (-> 5)) ; ##(let [-> inc] (-> 5))
14:18	lazybot	⇒ 5
14:18	clojurebot	6
14:19	jonasen	dnolen: but the problem is pretty fundamental I think. If you want to figure out which var's are in use you pretty much have to macroexpand. If you are handed source code for one file at a time there is no way to find do the macroexpansion.
14:20	jonasen	As long as you don
14:22	jonasen	As long as you don't have access to all the source code you have no choice but to resort to "guess work" (which the codeq analyzer does, i.e., (.startsWith (name sym) "def") etc.)
14:22	dnolen	jonasen: I guess I don't see why codeq can't be modified to make doing the right thing possible? or are you saying you might as well continue with scape? :)
14:22	Sgeo_	I guess one advantage Clojure has over Tcl is that it's actually possible to analayze Clojure code
14:22	Sgeo_	Pretty sure it's actually impossible with Tcl
14:25	ForSpareParts	Is there anyway to create an abstract class with gen-class?
14:25	jonasen	dnolen: There is good reason to not do any macroexpansion too as that means eval-ing (possibly untrusted) code, especially if you intend to index every clojure github project (which would be awesome).
14:26	Sgeo_	Run it in a VM?
14:26	Sgeo_	(Not suggesting Clojail, it has some issues that might make code intended to not be run in Clojail break)
14:27	jonasen	one idea is to only macroexpand clojure.core macros. That would probably get you 95% of the way to correctness
14:29	Sgeo_	Write a macroexpander where only pure non-I/Oy functions run?
14:29	Sgeo_	And any macro that tries to execute an impure function gets marked as well as places that rely on that macro?
14:29	Sgeo_	(e.g. all uses of Noir's defpage, I think)
14:32	tomoj	I always imagined an lxc per project. is there a way to avoid needing a new jvm for every commit?
14:32	dnolen	jonasen: right
14:34	Sgeo_	lxc?
14:44	callen	Sgeo_: since nobody else piped up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LXC
14:45	Sgeo_	Ah, cool
14:45	jonasen	dnolen: Anytime you wan't to statically analyze lisp programs, macros get (by definition) in the way since there is no way to know what they do with your s-expressions. On the other hand, If you do macroexpansion you are 1. no longer doing _static_ analysis, 2. lose valuable information as all "macro call sites" are lost. I have come to the conclusion that analysing lisp programs is a hard problem.. and therfor interesting :)
14:48	dnolen	jonasen: aren't there some assumptions here about the macro system at play? If Clojure offered something more akin to Scheme syntax-rules - simple rewriting - I think this would be less problematic.
14:49	jonasen	dnolen: I'm not familiar with schemes hygienic macro system
14:50	dnolen	jonasen: arbitrary code not allowed - pattern matching, rewriting only
14:50	jonasen	dnolen: ok
14:51	dnolen	jonasen: sufficient for many macros - and insane for sophisticated ones like pattern matching
14:52	jonasen	dnolen: I learned scheme once but never got as far as creating my own macros.. But I do remember they looked scary
14:53	dnolen	jonasen: they are actually quite nice - Scheme's problem is that syntax-rules really is awful for more complex macros. syntax-rules really is pretty simple to understand.
14:53	dnolen	I haven't ventured into syntax-case or the macro features of Racket
15:41	bbloom	jonasen: is there any reason you can't do dynamic analysis too?
15:41	bbloom	jonasen: i.e. run the macro expansions inside a security context and with a timeout?
15:47	bbloom	the static vs dynamic divide always seemed strange to me.... most static type systems have "soundness" (ie. termination) as a built in quality. but that severely limits what you can have them represent. seems like "terminates within 3 seconds" is a reasonable requirement to enforce externally :-P
15:48	jonasen	bbloom: sure, that's possible. But the problem with using the clojurescript analyzer (or ambrosebs 'analyze') for codeq still stands.
15:49	bbloom	jonasen: you're referring to the need to recurse into files you depend on?
15:50	jonasen	yes
15:50	bbloom	dnolen: this brings up the idea of a protocol for the module system....
15:51	Sgeo_	There's a language extension to Haskell that allows some cases in which type checking might not terminate, I think
15:51	bbloom	Sgeo_: i think i saw that. and lots of other work too on proving more dynamic properties with termination. see: dependent types
15:52	bbloom	jonasen: would you be interested in helping decouple the clojurescript compiler from gclosure and to make the module system more pluggable? i'm imagining supplying/finding/loading/whatever a module out of codeq
15:53	bbloom	jonasen: no idea what that looks like yet.... needs a lot of thought
15:54	dnolen	bbloom: termination is not enough in a system in which macroexpansion can fully interact w/ the runtime. sandboxing might help but given the freedom Clojure programmers have I think there are probably a lot of wacky macros out there.
15:55	dnolen	to which I've contributed my share
15:55	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, of course there will be things that are simply too difficult to analyze statically. but expanding most macros has got to beat heuristics like startsWith "def"
15:56	bbloom	s/analyze statically/analyze
15:56	dnolen	bbloom: thus my earlier point about syntax-rules. The Scheme people already thought about this. syntax-rules is reasonable default if you want the most of the corpus to be analyzeable w/o jumping through hoops.
15:57	bbloom	dnolen: oh yeah, that makes sense to me, but it's too late to change all the macros out there now :-P
15:57	dnolen	yep
15:57	jonasen	bbloom: that's exactly what I meant when I said that expanding clojure.core macros would get you 95% there
15:58	bbloom	jonasen: being that i haven't memorized core yet.... are there any macros in core who's execution could be a security or stability risk?
15:59	bbloom	jonasen: maybe i'm paranoid, but i wouldn't even run those outside of a security context & timeout :-) at which point you can get 98% of the way there by also expanding user macros... .assuming you solve the dependency/module problem
16:00	jonasen	The problem is: is a symbol (without a ns-part) in an s-expression a local or a var? With that information it would be easy to substantially enhance the codeq clojure analyzer
16:01	tomoj	will a security context prevent d/connect + d/transact?
16:02	bbloom	jonasen: doesn't the analyzer's :var form include a :name property? can't you just check for (namespace (:name vast-ast-node)) ? non-nil means it's a var
16:03	jonasen	bbloom: you can't run the available analyzers in codeq (as things are now)
16:03	bbloom	jonasen: right, because of the module system.... i think we're going in circles :-)
16:04	jonasen	I'd love to be able to participate in the codeq unsession at clojure-conj.. Any and all notes from that session would be much appreciated. Video would be even better :)
16:06	Sgeo_	Am I the only one who thinks Clojure/Tcl communication would be fun?
16:07	Iceland_jack	Heh.. possibly
16:11	Sgeo_	They're both very flexible languages, they both have notions of immutability
16:12	clj_newb_2345	how do I write a clojure structure out ot file
16:12	bbloom	spit
16:12	clj_newb_2345	(spit f _structure_) ends up printing out "lazy sequence"
16:12	bbloom	,(doc spit)
16:12	clojurebot	"([f content & options]); Opposite of slurp. Opens f with writer, writes content, then closes f. Options passed to clojure.java.io/writer."
16:12	clj_newb_2345	i need to convert the structure to a string first
16:12	clj_newb_2345	perferably a string that I can read back using "read"
16:13	bbloom	clj_newb_2345: are you sure you haven't already got a string?
16:13	bbloom	clj_newb_2345: try (class _structure_)
16:13	bbloom	(println (class _your_thing_)) and report back what you get
16:14	clj_newb_2345	got it working with with-out-str println
16:15	bbloom	clj_newb_2345: ah, yeah, spit uses str, not pr
16:16	jonasen	bbloom: I'm not sure what you mean with a module system, but if cljs.analyzer/get-expander was customizeable it might be possible to use the clojurescript analyzer with codeq.
16:16	jonasen	But enhancing the codeq _clojure_ analyzer would be more useful as there is much more clojure code out there than clojurescript
16:17	bbloom	jonasen: there are a few things that you need knowledge of namespaces and vars to do. get-expander is one example of resolution
16:18	bbloom	jonasen: another example is that analyze-deps you pointed out
16:18	bbloom	jonasen: it calls io/resource and then analyze-file
16:18	bbloom	in theory, there are several related functions that differ depending on where you're looking up files to satisfy dependencies, resolve vars, etc
16:19	bbloom	the implementation that is there now loads up files using the java class path
16:19	dnolen	bbloom: analyze-deps is not necessary - the analyzer would work just fine w/o it - that's just for optimization like said before.
16:20	bbloom	dnolen: right, but that's not true for macros nor is it true for :use without :only
16:21	dnolen	bbloom: yes but analyze-deps doesn't look at macros.
16:22	dnolen	bbloom: er sorry didn't read closely enough. right.
16:22	bbloom	jonasen: does codeq use the "real" jam clojure analyzer? or is it ad-hoc?
16:23	bbloom	jam -> jvm
16:23	bbloom	dammit Textual, how do i forcibly turn off autocorrect?
16:25	jonasen	bbloom: the codeq analyzer doesn't do much (clojure specific) analysis: https://github.com/Datomic/codeq/blob/master/src/datomic/codeq/analyzers/clj.clj#L29
16:26	bbloom	jonasen: yeah, pretty ad-hoc
16:26	bbloom	would be nice to use the clojurescript analyzer there... despite the fact that it needs some work to support big boy clojure
16:27	jonasen	bbloom: that was my idea too.. but it was more difficult than I initially thought :)
16:28	dnolen	bbloom: jonasen: rhickey said he'd like to see bits of the CLJS analyzer integrated too. My understanding is that codeq in it's current is a proof of concept and it's up to the community to push it along further. like ClojureScript was/is to a large degree.
16:28	bbloom	jonasen: yup, now that we're on the same page, let me reiterate: i think the module system needs to be decoupled :-)
16:29	bbloom	jonasen: it should be able to look up a namespace in datomic, rather than on the file system
16:29	bbloom	this way you can go back and run the analyzer on an older version of the code
16:29	bbloom	without relying on the java classpath
16:33	jonasen	dnolen: bbloom: It's getting really late here. Thanks for an interesting discussion, hopefully we can continue another day.. these are all interesting problems
16:39	lpvb	cljsc takes a very long to compile
16:39	dnolen	lpvb: yeah you shouldn't use it, I recommend lein-cljsbuild
16:40	dnolen	lpvb: it has auto mode so you don't pay for JVM boot + CLJS self compile every time you change somehting.
16:45	Sgeo_	An explicit compile step for a Lisp seems ... counterintuitive
16:47	dnolen	Sgeo_: I guess you haven't looked at many Lisps - there quite a few compilers that do whole program optimization
16:47	S11001001	Sgeo_: ANSI Smalltalk is a variant of smalltalk with enough late-binding features removed such that building an AOT build infrastructure for it is feasible.
16:48	Sgeo_	But you could still change code around at runtime, I'd assume?
16:49	dnolen	Sgeo_: probably greatly depends on the implementation
16:52	lpvb	dnolen: thanks
16:52	dnolen	lpvb: np
16:53	dnolen	lpvb: still, I agree we definitely need to improve compile times ;)
17:16	matt444	Hello, I am unable to find a function that lets you replace a substring by position, does not exist?
17:16	matt444	clojure.string/replace replaces by a pattern.
17:21	AimHere	matt444, you could probably patch things together with subs
17:22	Sgeo_	Is there a Java method that could do it, perhaps?
17:23	unlink	Why does `lein ring server' on OS X start a new focus-stealing Java application when I run it?
17:23	unlink	Said application appears in Command-Tab as `clojure.main'.
17:28	Apage43	unlink: if you ever actually import any swing or awt classes that will probably happen
17:28	Apage43	regardless of whether they are instantiated
17:32	unlink	That's heinous.
17:32	unlink	Is it possible to suppress that?
17:34	S11001001	matt444: All String methods are also available. Just remember that there's even odds you'll screw up an index if you do index-based string manipulation directly, hence the preference for patterns
17:37	Apage43	unlink: I believe it's part of static {} blocks in the class, so if the classloader loads them, that's going to happen.
17:38	S11001001	~(do (require 'clojure.string) [(clojure.string/replace "z" #"z" "\\\\") (clojure.string/replace "z" #"z" (constantly "\\\\"))])
17:38	clojurebot	clojure euler is http://clojure-euler.wikispaces.com/
17:38	S11001001	,(do (require 'clojure.string) [(clojure.string/replace "z" #"z" "\\\\") (clojure.string/replace "z" #"z" (constantly "\\\\"))])
17:38	clojurebot	["\\" "\\"]
17:38	S11001001	yummy
17:39	S11001001	,(clojure.string/replace "z" #"z" "\\") ;my favorite feature of replace
17:39	clojurebot	#<StringIndexOutOfBoundsException java.lang.StringIndexOutOfBoundsException: String index out of range: 1>
17:39	S11001001	,(clojure.string/replace "z" "z" "\\")
17:39	clojurebot	"\\"
17:40	S11001001	,(clojure.string/replace "z" #"z" (java.util.regex.Pattern/quoteReplacement "\\"))
17:40	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: quoteReplacement, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:40	S11001001	ugh
18:09	alex_baranosky	seems to be something tricky about using type hints on java method calls that have vararg signatures
18:10	alex_baranosky	this is giving me reflection warnings, any suggestions?: https://gist.github.com/4014270
18:17	dnolen	alex_baranosky: into-array doesn't have a return type-hint
18:17	alex_baranosky	I didn't know how to type hint a array of Strings.., so that's the issue, thanks
18:18	dnolen	,(class (into-array String []))
18:18	clojurebot	[Ljava.lang.String;
18:18	dnolen	^"[Ljava.lang.String;"
18:18	dnolen	alex_baranosky: ^
18:18	bbloom	dnolen: isn't there a special case for primitive arrays?
18:18	alex_baranosky	dnolen: thanks: nice and esoteric
18:18	dnolen	alex_baranosky: but really all you care about is ^objects
18:18	dnolen	alex_baranosky: ^objects should work I think.
18:19	bbloom	isn't there ^strings too ?
18:19	bbloom	and ^ints, floats, etc
18:19	alex_baranosky	I tried ^strings, that one doesn't work
18:19	dnolen	bbloom: don't think there is one for strings, only primitives, and ^objects
18:19	amalloy	^objects shouldn't work if he has an array of strings. afaik String[] isn't a subclass of Object[]
18:20	dnolen	amalloy: but isn't varargs always ^objects?
18:22	alex_baranosky	amalloy: correct, ^objects didn't work but ^"[Ljava.lang.String;" did
18:22	alex_baranosky	^strings might not be a bad addition to Clojure
18:22	amalloy	dnolen: no
18:23	bbloom	alex_baranosky: make a patch :-) src/clj/clojure/genclass.clj, search for prim->class
18:24	alex_baranosky	bbloom: thanks, I may just do that
18:24	dnolen	amalloy: gotcha
18:25	amalloy	alex_baranosky: from reading the jodatime and jollyday docs, i don't think that ^Interval hint is buying you anything, btw
18:25	amalloy	oh no, silly me, of course it is
18:26	alex_baranosky	amalloy: yeah getHolidays is overloaded so needs the hint
18:32	Sgeo_	I really don't understand the [Ljava.lang.String thing
18:33	Sgeo_	What's going on that that shows up like that?
18:33	amalloy	$google jvm array class name
18:33	lazybot	[How does array class work in Java? - Stack Overflow] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2910774/how-does-array-class-work-in-java
18:33	Sgeo_	ty
18:34	bbloom	i always forget that strings aren't considered "primitives"
18:35	bbloom	trying to write some java after clojure (or even just c#) and the number of string == bugs that a linter finds and warns me to use .equals is astronomical :-P
18:58	callen	bbloom: strings are an abstraction.
18:58	Sgeo_	Is there any circumstance where Clojail is used in such a way that malicious code is not supposed to be able to detect that Clojail is in use?
18:59	bbloom	callen: primitives are an optimization ;-)
18:59	Sgeo_	Haskell doesn't have that concept of reference identity
18:59	Sgeo_	Much simpler to think about
18:59	callen	bbloom: not really, they're data that doesn't require abstraction or intermediate translation to represent in the hardware.
19:00	callen	bbloom: an array of integers is a pretty straightforward thing to represent at the machine level.
19:00	bbloom	callen: how is that not an optimization?
19:01	callen	bbloom: what you call an optimization, I call an unburdened and simple representation of data that comes naturally to the hardware.
19:02	callen	bbloom: eliding potentially unnecessary operations is a more obvious case of an optimization. Or vectorization.
19:03	bbloom	callen: i'm not interested in arguing semantics -- all i said was that i forget to use .equals on strings b/c im used to languages that have either operator overloading or stronger notions of equivalence
19:04	Sgeo_	"Primitives" in some languages such as Java might be more directly representable, but can be annoying if they don't play nice with the general abstraction that the language uses.
19:05	Sgeo_	An int is not a java.lang.Object, which seems bizarre to me
19:05	dnolen	Sgeo_: I thought Haskell also has escape hatches to get to low level mutable reps
19:05	dnolen	representations
19:05	Sgeo_	dnolen, yes, but at least those are escape hatches, not things you tend to need to interact with on a regular basis.
19:05	Sgeo_	*directly interact with
19:06	Sgeo_	Although, I think things like Int# are not Haskell itself but GHC stuff, not sure
19:07	dnolen	Sgeo_: so the store is more or less the same. Reality sets in.
19:07	dnolen	story
19:08	dnolen	40 years of FP research and sometime you still need to get to a primitive mutable thing.
19:08	dnolen	50 years sorry.
19:08	callen	I think it's impossible to ever overcome that need for some subset of things.
19:09	callen	as long as practical limitations reign.
19:09	Sgeo_	dnolen, to implement a language on an imperative machine?
19:10	dnolen	Sgeo_: I didn't say anything about implementing a language on imperative machine.
19:10	Sgeo_	The bigger problem is I/O which seems to be naturally imperative. In Haskell it's fairly simple to interact with the outside world in an imperative-style way, but it would be nice with more functional-style approach
19:10	callen	I/O isn't that big of a problem.
19:11	callen	I'm not trying to be contradictory, I'm serious.
19:12	callen	the sometimes-necessity of mutable state/imperativeness doesn't need I/O to be a problem.
19:21	callen	Sgeo_: in particular, monads and arrows have provided a lot of insight into how to encapsulate I/O. FRP is an alternative to typically callback-driven interactive global state.
19:22	callen	The deeper issue is that any declarative programming style is never going to escape directly to a set of instructions that are more optimal/faster than what a human operating with a lower level set of primitives could accomplish. There are fundamental limitations preventing that from happening.
19:25	shachaf	Not if the lower-level primitives are complicated enough that no human could hope to reason about them. :-)
19:25	Sgeo_	But at what point is that gap small enough that working non-declaratively is about as much use as working in assembly?
19:25	callen	shachaf: thus, C.
19:25	shachaf	callen: "thus, CPUs"
19:25	callen	why do people think everything is a totality?
19:25	shachaf	Because they hate the halting problem?
19:25	KirinDave	Ha
19:25	callen	Why not work at a higher-level with the understanding that you might run into a brick wall that requires stepping down the ladder of abstraction?
19:26	callen	Python/Ruby people are perfectly comfortable accepting that sometimes they need to use the C FFI.
19:26	shachaf	Who said not to?
19:26	KirinDave	callen: Actually, they're comfortable wedging everything they can into C.
19:26	Sgeo_	When are those sometimes?
19:26	callen	because a lot of people seem to act as if everything can be done in their language of choice.
19:26	KirinDave	callen: because their interpreters are pretty bad.
19:26	callen	KirinDave: keenly aware of that.
19:26	Sgeo_	Interacting directly with hardware, drivers etc., but when else?
19:27	Sgeo_	Need for speed at cost of programmer sanity?
19:27	KirinDave	Also: "abstraction" means something entirely different int he OO, imperative world.
19:27	callen	KirinDave: actually, you're a good person to ask. Does Haskell ever stop feeling like I'm solving unnecessary puzzles?
19:27	KirinDave	In the functional world it usually means something very broad and optimizable. In the OO world it's about stacking ontologies ever higher into specific cases.
19:27	callen	because I'm getting pretty tired of taking 2 hours to do something that takes 5 minutes in Python or Clojure.
19:27	callen	KirinDave: drop the strawman, nobody's interested in bashing OO here.
19:27	KirinDave	callen: Trying to build a Scala project? ;)
19:28	KirinDave	callen: Is neither a straw man nor did I bring up that world. You did with Ruby+Python.
19:28	Sgeo_	callen, are you counting debugging time in those 5 minutes?
19:28	KirinDave	Even comparing them is to have an impedance mismatch.
19:28	callen	Sgeo_: debugging my python code is a pleasure and not often necessary outside of the experimental REPL phase.
19:29	callen	I'm not super interesting in comparisons or dick-waving.
19:29	Sgeo_	I should try to learn and understand clojure-test-mode at some point
19:29	callen	It's a serious question
19:29	callen	does Haskell ever stop feeling like a chore?
19:29	KirinDave	callen: I'm not sure what you are interested in.
19:29	KirinDave	callen: Yes.
19:29	callen	because I've talked to other people who've invested between 2-5 years into it
19:29	bbloom	callen: most of your comments in the last few minutes certainly seem like dick waving
19:29	callen	and it never started being more productive than Brand X
19:30	callen	so I'd like to know if I should cut my losses or not.
19:30	KirinDave	callen: If not constantly learning is a problem for you, you might want to cut your losses on the entire profession of programming.
19:30	KirinDave	Because no toolchain eliminates that requirement.
19:30	callen	I should've expected as much.
19:30	callen	It's not about the learning, it's about the productivity.
19:30	wkelly	callen: how much time have you put in?
19:30	KirinDave	It's a fundamental feature of the medium at this stage of its lifecycle.
19:31	callen	I love learning, that's why I'm learning Haskell. It's benefited my Python code a LOT
19:31	callen	more than Lisp or Clojure ever did
19:31	callen	however, I'm having trouble seeing that I'll ever become more productive in Haskell than Python or Clojure.
19:31	callen	and I'm not the only one with this concern.
19:31	KirinDave	For some things you won't.
19:31	KirinDave	For some things you will.
19:31	callen	wkelly: a very casual 1-1.5 years
19:31	KirinDave	Not every tool is uniformly better.
19:31	Iceland_jack	callen: productivity is a broad term
19:31	callen	wkelly: not serious time though. Lots of fiddling.
19:31	KirinDave	Why is this conversation in #clojure and not #haskell?
19:31	dnolen	KirinDave: +1
19:31	callen	KirinDave: because #haskell people are hateful as fuck.
19:32	callen	KirinDave: and you were already insulting a moment ago
19:32	KirinDave	callen: You have a bad attitude and they smell that
19:32	callen	KirinDave: I don't need a whole channel of that.
19:32	KirinDave	callen: I was?
19:32	KirinDave	callen: Where?
19:32	callen	KirinDave: you suggested I should quit programming
19:32	KirinDave	Oh
19:32	callen	for reasons I never stated I had.
19:32	KirinDave	No, I made a generalizatoin.
19:32	KirinDave	It's not specific to haskell or you.
19:32	callen	don't make excuses.
19:33	callen	own up to it, and try to stay on topic.
19:33	KirinDave	callen: Well you've scared me off. Good luck.
19:33	callen	is the answer: "Haskell is great for some things, awkward for others"?
19:33	bbloom	dnolen: no, callen is trolling
19:33	callen	Because I'll accept that as an answer.
19:33	callen	is it really that unreasonable to ask a well known Haskeller if it ever stops feeling awkward to write code in?
19:34	callen	I came through the other side, so to speak, in terms of comfort level a lot quicker in Common Lisp, Python, Clojure, etc.
19:34	Iceland_jack	For some people it probably never feels awkward, that's a subjective call
19:34	bbloom	callen: no, your tone, intentional or not, is extremely adversarial
19:34	callen	it just seems like a lot more people struggle and struggle harder with Haskell. I'm just trying to get some anecdote on the matter.
19:34	bbloom	callen: if you don't intend to troll, know that you are doing so
19:35	bbloom	callen: and choose your words more carefully
19:35	callen	it would've satisfied me to know that some people feel maximally comfortable in Haskell above all others.
19:35	callen	bbloom: cut the meta conversation. If you have alternatives to me, suggest them via private chat rather than passing on dictates in public chat.
19:36	KirinDave	Batten down the hatches
19:36	bbloom	callen: that would be a perfect example right there...
19:36	KirinDave	Deploy the /ignore! Trollicane a'comin!
19:36	callen	you keep complaining about my trolling, when I'm trying to get answers to the original question
19:36	callen	is there a "safe space" for asking comparative questions about programming languages?
19:36	callen	I wanted to ask in #yfl, but there are some serious haskell haters there
19:36	dubz	lol
19:36	callen	and I wanted to talk to haskell users.
19:37	KirinDave	callen: We've already answered your question. Twice actually.
19:37	KirinDave	callen: You're just really busy being defensive.
19:37	callen	KirinDave: was your answer, "productivity is a broad term"?
19:37	Sgeo_	Considering my constant language switching, I would like a channel where I could talk about various languages
19:37	KirinDave	callen: I am not going to read your history for you.
19:37	Sgeo_	And how interesting a Clojure-Tcl bridge could be.
19:37	callen	Sgeo_: #yfl is one. They're pretty prolog/erlang centric AFAICT. They've used many though.
19:37	dnolen	Sgeo_: :P
19:37	KirinDave	Sgeo_: here is a good place, I suppose. Very few clojure hackers are exclusive.
19:38	callen	Sgeo_: just don't mention haskell there and you'll probably be okay.
19:38	KirinDave	Erlang is another great example of a language with specific talents.
19:38	callen	KirinDave: what are the specific talents of Haskell?
19:38	KirinDave	callen: Correctness, performance, succinct code.
19:39	Iceland_jack	This is just a flamewar waiting to happen.. come on, know better than to ask subjective questions like this on a crowded channel
19:39	KirinDave	callen: Haskell's price is that it's from an entirely different universe of coding that only a few other languages bear relation to.
19:39	callen	KirinDave: that seems reasonable.
19:39	callen	KirinDave: I think one problem is that my priorities are a bit different. I care more about shipping the 80/20 ASAP than I do correctness.
19:39	KirinDave	For contrast, Erlang is incredibly good at making distributed systems. God help you doing string processing in it though. The resulting code is at best "not natural" and at worst an exercise in patience.
19:39	jcromartie	so this post on /r/clojure makes me think: could mapcat be improved?
19:39	jcromartie	http://clojurian.blogspot.ca/2012/11/beware-of-mapcat.html
19:39	KirinDave	callen: For some products that is the right call.
19:39	callen	KirinDave: that combined with my untrained-ness in the heavily recursive and type-driven style leaves me a bit...lost.
19:40	callen	and rather slow at making progress.
19:40	KirinDave	callen: Very few people have training in type-inferenced languages.
19:40	callen	It's not really the type inference that's the hold-up.
19:40	bbloom	KirinDave: stop feeding the troll :-P if you want to discuss this with him go to a private channel. jcromartie actually has an interesting discussion :-)
19:40	callen	it's learning to satisfy the type system and make it happy that takes time for me.
19:40	Iceland_jack	Wait until he tries languages with undecidable type systems..
19:40	KirinDave	callen: There is no difference.
19:41	bbloom	jcromartie: yeah, i saw that too. seems like mapcat could be considered bugged
19:41	callen	KirinDave: I find the incredibly powerful type system incredibly appealing though. Some of my little hacking phases with Haskell have been incredibly enlightening as a result.
19:41	KirinDave	bbloom: That's actually salient to the blog post I am writing.
19:41	callen	s/incredibly//g
19:41	KirinDave	bbloom: It's no surprise lazy-seq comes into play.
19:42	bbloom	KirinDave: cool. I'd like to see space guarantees make their way into the clojure.core doc strings
19:42	KirinDave	Tough to do correctly.
19:42	callen	KirinDave: what's the blog post about? Also, I liked your fizz-buzz post that transitions into macros a lot.
19:43	KirinDave	callen: monoids, you mean?
19:43	callen	sorry, sure.
19:43	callen	I'm still fuzzy on the category theory. Quite so.
19:43	callen	I don't really understand the monad laws or how the different categories relate to the code.
19:43	KirinDave	'sokay. So is SPJ.
19:44	callen	huh?
19:44	callen	how could he be?
19:44	KirinDave	You should ask those questions elsewhere. They're way offtopic.
19:44	brehaut	KirinDave: lol
19:44	callen	monads are off-topic in Clojure?
19:44	KirinDave	callen: Yes.
19:44	callen	they have monadic libraries in Clojure.
19:44	KirinDave	Yes.
19:44	brehaut	and they arent especially idiomatic
19:44	KirinDave	For anyone.
19:44	KirinDave	They're sort of a "look what i can do!"
19:44	callen	er...then why does Haskell use them?
19:44	brehaut	KirinDave: not entirely true; they are useful as macro plumbing
19:45	KirinDave	brehaut: Eehhhhhhhh.
19:45	KirinDave	callen: Because Haskell has strong static typing with a very powerful inference engine and also probably one of the worlds 3 most sophisticated compilers for functional programming (and also a host of hard-won rewriting rules for making that work)
19:46	KirinDave	callen: I've yet to see a good implementation of monadic code in dynamically typed languages.
19:46	callen	what about Haskell necessitates them, as opposed to Clojure, though? The purity?
19:46	KirinDave	You usually have to explicitly annotate which monad you want, and that sort of spoils the exercise.
19:46	KirinDave	The non-strictness.
19:46	callen	oh that explains a lot actually. Cf. OCaml.
19:47	callen	KirinDave: want to take it to #haskell-overflow?
19:48	KirinDave	Nope. I want to go fold laundry and rest my brain after writing a 3k word blog post in one sitting.
19:48	callen	I figured as much. Well I learned something anyway.
19:48	KirinDave	Good luck.
19:48	callen	I'd forgotten how incredibly unpleasant IRC can be for the simplest conversations. This was a good reminder.
19:48	AdmiralBumbleBee	I was enjoying reading the discussion :(
19:49	callen	AdmiralBumbleBee: I'd be happy to talk to you somewhere people won't complain.
19:49	brehaut	hi AdmiralBumbleBee
19:49	shachaf	You don't need to understand category theory to understand the monad laws.
19:49	bbloom	callen: is english your first language?
19:49	KirinDave	The monad laws are sort of obvious, once you realize the intent.
19:49	callen	shachaf: doesn't really matter. All of it gets rubber-stamped with MATH!
19:49	AdmiralBumbleBee	callen: I'm usually the guy who whines about offtopic… and that discussion seemed totally on topic to me
19:50	callen	AdmiralBumbleBee: are you familiar with Haskell at all?
19:50	AdmiralBumbleBee	callen: yes
19:50	AdmiralBumbleBee	I started learning it relatively recently, but I've been very busy
19:50	shachaf	Uh oh, looks like I missed a long discussion in here.
19:50	AdmiralBumbleBee	hi brehaut :)
19:51	callen	AdmiralBumbleBee: story of my life. I've been tinkering with it off and on for over a year.
19:51	AdmiralBumbleBee	callen: oddly enough, I keep running into road blocks with haskell… and what gets me by is understanding the concept applied in clojure
19:51	AdmiralBumbleBee	so any discussion of haskell in a remotely clojure context is super cool for me
19:52	AdmiralBumbleBee	I still have issues understanding monads honestly
19:52	AdmiralBumbleBee	everytime I think I get it, someone tells me that I don't
19:53	AdmiralBumbleBee	then someone tells that person that they're wrong too
19:53	AdmiralBumbleBee	and I go back to square one
19:53	shachaf	AdmiralBumbleBee: You don't need to worry about "underading monads" that much.
19:53	shachaf	"monad" is a pretty generic API for a lot of concrete types.
19:53	AdmiralBumbleBee	understanding :P
19:54	AdmiralBumbleBee	it's what I want
19:54	shachaf	Er, yes. That word.
19:54	shachaf	Understanding the concrete types is useful.
19:54	shachaf	Once you understand all the "prerequisites", "understanding monads" will come pretty naturally.
19:54	shachaf	Before that, it's just trying to understand an abstraction for its own sake.
19:54	AdmiralBumbleBee	I always want to know implementation details
19:54	AdmiralBumbleBee	I can't stand just knowing how to use things
19:54	shachaf	OK. Monads aren't implementation details. :-)
19:55	AdmiralBumbleBee	I want to know how they work, what they do, what they should do etc..
19:55	shachaf	Monad is entirely "how to use things"
19:55	AdmiralBumbleBee	hmm
19:55	callen	AdmiralBumbleBee: I do the same thing sometimes (translate between Haskell and Clojure) but I find it doesn't help for the truly haskell-specific parts.
19:55	shachaf	Well, OK, I'm exaggerating.
19:55	callen	I don't think it helps with the stuff specific to recursion either.
19:55	AdmiralBumbleBee	this is where I'm conflicting with what I've read and been explained before shachaf :(
19:56	shachaf	AdmiralBumbleBee: Did you see the FAQ?
19:56	shachaf	http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ
19:56	shachaf	http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ#The_M-word in particular.
19:56	AdmiralBumbleBee	yes shachaf
19:56	shachaf	This uses a lot of features: first-class functions: the second argument to (>>=) is a function; type constructors (here m); type class polymorphism; type class polymorphism over type constructors (which few other languages have); parametric (not type class) polymorphism, over a and b. Each of these features is more fundamental than the specific idea of monads. If you understand each feature, then Monad is a small example of how they fit together
19:56	AdmiralBumbleBee	I really think the core issue is that I don't understand type classes, at all
19:57	AdmiralBumbleBee	it seems very strange to me
19:57	callen	oddly, I found the typeclasses part easier to understand. Perhaps because that's largely how I use Python's inheritance.
19:57	amalloy	type classes are not far off from clojure protocols or java interfaces
19:57	shachaf	OK, so that's an important thing to understand before you can understand a specific type class.
19:57	callen	I get stuck on modeling code in terms of recursion more often.
19:57	shachaf	amalloy: They are in how they're used!
19:58	AdmiralBumbleBee	callen: clojure is the first 'high level' language I've used, let alone functional
19:58	AdmiralBumbleBee	I really don't have anything to fall back on for understanding such things
19:59	amalloy	shachaf: really? i'm conversant in the basics of monad use, and the only difference that's obvious to me is that haskell functions/typeclasses can dispatch on return type
19:59	callen	AdmiralBumbleBee: ah, I'm kinda the opposite. I spent most of my years in clisp or Python.
19:59	callen	AdmiralBumbleBee: my only low-level is C.
19:59	amalloy	i would love to hear what else is different
19:59	AdmiralBumbleBee	callen: I've tried python a bit… never used CL
20:00	callen	AdmiralBumbleBee: CL was great if you wanted to write code like a cabin-dwelling unabomber.
20:00	AdmiralBumbleBee	honestly, I've not spent any time in an OO language other than understanding enough objc so I can just write straight C for everything :)
20:00	brehaut	amalloy: handwaving there kinds and ranks stuff makes typeclasses slightly more complicated
20:01	KirinDave	amalloy: " the only difference that's obvious to me is that haskell functions/typeclasses can dispatch on return type" there are more things, but this is a pretty important thing.
20:01	shachaf	It's less "return type" and more "type".
20:02	shachaf	"return-type polymorphism" isn't special.
20:02	shachaf	You have minBound :: Bounded a => a, which isn't a function at all.
20:02	KirinDave	shachaf: Tell this to scala? ;)
20:02	callen	my primary experience of Scala was seeing sbt run out of memory and crash, and being so disgusted that I couldn't even be bothered to continue.
20:03	shachaf	Anyway, many places where you might use interfaces and types in Java, the thing you'd use in Haskell is just types and regular old values.
20:03	callen	shachaf: regular old values? you mean in the context of pattern-matching or something else?
20:04	shachaf	Talking about this in the abstract probably isn't much use. :-)
20:04	KirinDave	shachaf: That is why i am trying to write a series of more concrete posts
20:04	shachaf	Type classes and Java interfaces have different enough uses that thinking of them as "the same thing" is misleading.
20:04	callen	I'm just trying to understand where and what regular old values suffice in Haskell for something else in Java.
20:04	shachaf	They also work differently.
20:05	dnolen	shachaf: I don't think that typeclasses are that different from protocols. The ad-hoc polymorphism of typeclasses was introduced to surmount the special case of equality in SML as far as I understand it.
20:05	AdmiralBumbleBee	so, what is the purpose of a type class?
20:05	AdmiralBumbleBee	is there a simple explanation of that?
20:05	shachaf	callen: Hmm. Well, for example, a list might be sufficient for something which would be Iterable in Java? I don't actually know java, mind you. :-)
20:05	shachaf	dnolen: Type classes aren't really for ad-hoc polymorphism, the name of that paper notwithstanding.
20:05	KirinDave	AdmiralBumbleBee: Well one purpose is to provide a solution to the so-called "expression" problem.
20:05	callen	shachaf: that gives something to chew on at the least.
20:06	shachaf	KirinDave: Huh? Type classes have nothing to do with the expression problem!
20:06	dnolen	shachaf: that's is not my understanding from the literature.
20:06	callen	ogod.jpg
20:06	KirinDave	shachaf: Untrue. :)
20:06	shachaf	callen: See also section 5.4 in the Haskell FAQ I linked to before.
20:06	AdmiralBumbleBee	KirinDave: if that's true… then I get it
20:06	AdmiralBumbleBee	that's what I thought in fact
20:06	AdmiralBumbleBee	but I've been told thats' wrong a few times :(
20:06	callen	shachaf: eggscellent. Thank you!
20:06	KirinDave	It's just one thing.
20:06	KirinDave	Like a specific thing.
20:07	KirinDave	I mean, at the end of the day they don't serve a purpose totally dissimilar from protocols for the workaday programmer.
20:07	callen	shachaf: the veering away from excessive typeclassing/existential-ness makes a lot of sense to me.
20:07	KirinDave	"I know how to fmap this"
20:07	KirinDave	"I know how to show this"
20:07	KirinDave	"Tell me how to treat this as a Num"
20:08	dnolen	shachaf: I'm looking at the Wadler paper right now and your interpretation of type classes make no sense to me.
20:08	dnolen	shachaf: equality in SML was a special case - the only function that worked differently for different types - SML only had parametric polymorphism outside of that.
20:09	shachaf	Right.
20:09	KirinDave	Personally I feel like Haskell is just hitting its stride as a workaday programmer's language.
20:09	KirinDave	A lot of really key libraries have fallen into place. The build system is getting to where it needs to be.
20:09	KirinDave	There is actually a LOT of free code for Haskell out there.
20:09	shachaf	But would you really call (==) "ad-hoc"?
20:09	shachaf	OK, that's just an argument over words. Let's don't have that.
20:10	dnolen	shachaf: yes because it is open world, implicitly defined when you create a new datatype.
20:10	KirinDave	Oh, and I'm trying to hire infrastructure devs with haskell experience. By the by.
20:10	KirinDave	For a pretty different project.
20:10	shachaf	Are you actually using Haskell?
20:10	callen	KirinDave: Haskell seems to be really popular in infrastructure/SRE/devops work. Is there a particular reason for that?
20:10	KirinDave	callen: I would not say it is yet.
20:10	KirinDave	shachaf: yes.
20:10	KirinDave	shachaf: Two components have very high correctness requirements.
20:11	callen	KirinDave: really popular relative to its overall popularity as a ratio of how much people use most languages for such things.
20:11	callen	KirinDave: Haskell's primary use at google in infrastructure. Berkeley too IIRC
20:11	KirinDave	shachaf: I am writing a free-monad based interpreter of a financial algorithm simulator for work. I imported Kan-extensions _like a boss._ ;)
20:12	KirinDave	shachaf: You may have seen me bugging #haskell for help getting that sorted in my head.
20:12	KirinDave	Cuz i've never done it via Free before.
20:12	KirinDave	Oh also Clojure.
20:12	KirinDave	So like.
20:12	KirinDave	Hit me up, peeps who want work.
20:13	callen	definitely not my bag, I'm supposed to quit programming soon so I can be a janitor.
20:14	KirinDave	Or just, you know, cowboy up. :)
20:14	callen	KirinDave: psh, if only you'd seen the reader macros I'd written in CL. Your free monads would wilt.
20:14	KirinDave	Perhaps so.
20:14	callen	gensym ALL THE THINGS
20:15	KirinDave	Nothing scares me after finishing LoL.
20:15	KirinDave	Cannot be frightened.
20:15	KirinDave	Actually check that.
20:15	KirinDave	One time I had a bug in a haskell program due to whitespace.
20:15	callen	I still think BoS type error -> delete file bug for GHC was pretty choice.
20:15	callen	KirinDave: I'm surprised you've done LoL.
20:16	shachaf	It's an unfortunate flaw in GHC that it only typechecks non-whitespace characters. :-(
20:16	KirinDave	callen: I've done a lot of regrettable things in my life.
20:16	callen	KirinDave: IIRC, LoL spends a decent amount of time making fun of purity-fascists.
20:16	KirinDave	callen: I do too.
20:16	KirinDave	Purity is a tool. Just like non-strictness.
20:16	AdmiralBumbleBee	lol?
20:16	callen	AdmiralBumbleBee: Land of Lisp.
20:16	AdmiralBumbleBee	ah
20:17	callen	AdmiralBumbleBee: a silly world for silly people. You should visit sometime.
20:17	KirinDave	AdmiralBumbleBee: http://www.amazon.com/Let-Over-Lambda-Doug-Hoyte/dp/1435712757/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352078173&sr=8-1&keywords=let+over+lambda
20:17	AdmiralBumbleBee	yeah… I"ve thought about it
20:17	KirinDave	No no
20:17	KirinDave	Let over Lambda.
20:17	AdmiralBumbleBee	wait
20:17	KirinDave	Land of List is baby talk.
20:17	AdmiralBumbleBee	which is which
20:17	KirinDave	err, Lisp.
20:17	KirinDave	Let over Lambda is abbreviated "LoL" for a reason.
20:18	callen	KirinDave: what about AMOP?
20:18	shachaf	«eLet Over Lambda (ISBN 978-1-4357-1275-1, 376+iv pp.) is one of the most hardcore computer programming books out there. Starting with the fundamentals, it describes the most advanced features of the most advanced language: COMMON LISP.»
20:18	KirinDave	callen: What about it?
20:18	shachaf	Poe's law applies to Lisp people, I think.
20:18	KirinDave	shachaf: Uh, in this case I concur. It's a fairly insane book.
20:18	KirinDave	shachaf: "hardcore" meaning "I love lisp. Oh god I love lisp so much. Take me, lisp!"
20:19	KirinDave	But once you've seen (defmacro … (let (x …) (lambda (y) …))) a few times you begin to go mad and it all becomes easier.
20:26	jcromartie	I think the LoL guy is a bit full of himself.
20:27	jcromartie	but maybe it's only because I don't understand his genius :)
20:27	AdmiralBumbleBee	he must be _really_ good with lisp then
20:28	callen	AdmiralBumbleBee: http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/toc just take a look for yourself.
20:29	AdmiralBumbleBee	callen: Im already there :)
20:29	AdmiralBumbleBee	this seems like a decent book to me
20:30	AimHere	Well that book has some neat ideas
20:30	AimHere	The 'Common Lisp Uber Alles' tone of the book is a bit obnoxious
20:31	bbloom	dnolen: i see a yourkit notice on the core.logic project. what's the deal with open source licenses for that? can i get one if i want to profile some clojure stuff?
20:32	dnolen	bbloom: yeah just ask, you just need to send them a link to your project, give 'em a couple of days is all.
20:32	amalloy	bbloom: their licensing page has a pretty clear statement
20:32	AdmiralBumbleBee	I like opionated books
20:32	bbloom	dnolen: amalloy: thanks
20:33	dnolen	speaking of Common Lisp, I looked at a bit ACL2 today - pretty cool stuff.
20:38	bbloom	dnolen: have you found it to be generally useful? my experience with jvisualvm is pretty lackluster
20:38	dnolen	bbloom: jvisualvm sucks IMO.
20:38	bbloom	"oh? lots of object[] were allocated? thanks...."
20:38	dnolen	bbloom: YourKit is much better and much much faster.
20:39	xeqi	dnolen: acl2 is pretty neat
20:39	bbloom	dnolen: sadly, their email system isn't all that fast.... trail key hasn't come :-P
20:39	dnolen	bbloom: yes it takes a couple days
20:39	bbloom	dnolen: it say "less than 5 minutes" after i filled out the trail form lol
20:39	bbloom	trial*
20:40	dnolen	xeqi: yeah was playing around w/ it in Racket today, it has graphical support for it via Dracula.
20:40	dnolen	well more like interface support I mean
20:40	dnolen	bbloom: hah yeah, no, it took a couple of days for me.
20:41	bbloom	dnolen: probably old copy from when the CTO was nervously refreshing his inbox all day :-)
20:42	jcromartie	so, java.awt.Rectangle is a useful class… why didn't I just use this all along
20:44	jcromartie	should just make a protocol around it
20:58	bbloom	dnolen: heh so the license just came
20:58	dnolen	bbloom: cool
20:58	bbloom	dnolen: first glance at the cljs compiler... i'm surprised to see that emit and analyze are both almost exactly equal in terms of time...
20:59	dnolen	bbloom: makes sense to me, surprised by which part?
20:59	bbloom	dnolen: i'd have expected analyze to be a tad slower, since it's doing lots more allocations
20:59	bbloom	i expected printing strings to be faster :-P
20:59	dnolen	bbloom: analyzer is fast, I keep saying that. No one believes me ;)
21:00	bbloom	dnolen: i believe you
21:00	bbloom	i just want to get my iteration times on the test suite from 30 seconds to 3 seconds
21:00	bbloom	step 1 might be to buy that new 13 macbook pro ... mmmm
21:00	dnolen	bbloom: heh, 24-25 seconds for me on 2.66 ghz, good luck w/ that.
21:01	dnolen	bbloom: one big problem is Fogus's time literal test, adds 10 seconds.
21:01	dnolen	bbloom: it be nice if we could have that test be optional.
21:01	dnolen	bbloom: well 10 seconds on the slower JS engines.
21:01	bbloom	i'm consistently impressed by rhino's slowness
21:02	bbloom	i might just be forced to do a node repl impl :-)
21:02	dnolen	bbloom: it's epic, I dream about Nashorn
21:02	bbloom	dnolen: just googled that... heh "available for java 8 in late 2013"
21:03	bbloom	oh and 30 seconds was for the repljs start
21:03	bbloom	my test times are more like 2 minutes
21:04	dnolen	bbloom: yeah it used be 30 seconds for me for all 3 engines.
21:05	dnolen	bbloom: but that was like a 8 months ago when CLJS was considerably simpler.
21:05	dnolen	bbloom: hrm, actually maybe 30 seconds for V8
21:05	bbloom	dnolen: I think we could recapture some of that simplicity :-)
21:06	bbloom	dnolen: much of the complexity comes from too much stuff happening in a single pass
21:07	bbloom	dnolen: llvm has dozens....
21:08	bbloom	http://llvm.org/docs/Passes.html
21:10	wingy	i am following the nr 1 rule of using macros .. don't
21:14	dnolen	bbloom: I meant simpler as in the core.cljs
21:14	dnolen	bbloom: core.cljs is more than 2X larger
21:15	dnolen	bbloom: but sure
21:15	bbloom	dnolen: is core.cljs really all that complicated? i mean, there's lots of stuff, but it's all pretty straightforward, right? are you referring to the various optimizations?
21:17	dnolen	bbloom: it's all relative :)
21:39	tmciver	exit
21:46	bbloom	what's the quickiest/easiest way to call a private java constructor ? (yes, i know bad idea, etc etc, i just want to test something in the repl real quick)
21:47	brainproxy	wingy: macros are a good tool, you just have to learn when to use them and when to favor solutions that in the long run are / will be simpler to understand and maintain
21:48	brainproxy	wingy: one thing they can do for you that functions can't is give you a way to work around eager argument evaluation
21:49	brainproxy	you may not need that often, but when you do, you pretty much have to use a macro
21:59	amalloy	bbloom: reflection
22:00	bbloom	amalloy: yeah, i'm muddling around with getConstructor, etc... is there a popular clj lib to make this trivial?
22:00	amalloy	shrug
22:01	amalloy	clojure.lang.Reflector has a lot of relevant stuff
22:11	bbloom	amalloy: grep setAccessible yields no results, so probably not useful :-)
22:11	bbloom	amalloy: thanks tho
22:15	wingy	brainproxy: yeah
22:24	mudge	does anyone know what clojure book covers building clojure projects the most or best?
22:28	xeqi	building as in build systems, or building as in growing a code base?
22:29	mudge	xeqi: about using clojure build systems like lancet or leiningen
22:29	mudge	I think I want to learn more about how to use ant in clojure
22:49	scottj	mudge: the first edition halloway book covers lancet, not sure about second. in general I think clojurebook.com is the best overall book currently.
22:49	mudge	thansk scottj
22:50	mudge	i'm checking out if the second halloway book covers lancet
22:50	scottj	mudge: but I don't think clojurebook.com talks about ant or lancet, I imagine it focuses on lein
22:52	mudge	thanks scottj: I wonder what book covers lein the best
22:55	mudge	i wish there was a book just on leiningen
23:01	xeqi	all the cool stuff in lein2 was created within the past year, so I doubt any book covers it much
23:01	xeqi	mudge: is there something in particular you're trying to do?
23:11	mudge	xeqi: well i have an unusual build process I need to implement where I need to build several projects together and package them together. Actually I'm thinking that maybe what I should do is make each project a seperate lein project
23:11	mudge	and make a project for the build that packages together the jars of the other projects
23:12	callen	mudge: I'm going to venture a guess and say..."yes"
23:12	callen	technomancy: ^^ ?
23:12	mudge	xeqi: is there a way to call lein tasks from within a clojure program?
23:13	mudge	So that in my build project I'd like to call lein jar on my other projects and then get those jars and package them together and deploy
23:13	callen	mudge: that seems reasonable to me.
23:13	lynaghk	I'm giving a talk on Clojure + data visualization next week and just put together this handout: http://keminglabs.com/oredev_handout.pdf I'd love feedback.
23:13	mudge	thanks callen
23:13	lynaghk	It's way more data visualization than Clojure, at the moment.
23:14	xeqi	mudge: you don't want the sub projects in a repo?
23:15	xeqi	usually I'd see each seperate project get built, and then a top level one that includes them
23:15	xeqi	like ring
23:15	mudge	xeqi: i'm new to building with leiningen, I don't see the advantage of putting things in repos other than being able to access them remotely if I had a computer somewhere else or was going to share something
23:15	lpvb	is there a way to get lein repl to watch for changes in files and reload namespaces?
23:16	lynaghk	lpvb: not natively as far as I'm aware, but you might want to check out: https://github.com/clojure/tools.namespace
23:18	mudge	xeqi: all my build project does it take the jars of the other project, add a configuration file, and zip them together and them deploy the zipped file. Does ring do something like this?
23:19	mudge	jars of the other projects*
23:23	xeqi	similar, but different as it's a library; including ring/ring, brings in ring/ring-devel, ring/ring-core, etc
23:43	mudge	xeqi: thanks
23:43	mudge	I noticed that the lein jar task includes the clojure source code files. What if I just want the class files?
23:47	mudge	I found out on my own: putting this in the project.clr: :omit-source true
23:50	mudge	just curious: what's everyone's favorite editor for Clojure programming?
23:58	ivan	mudge: Emacs. Though I often read code in IDEA.
23:59	mudge	ivan: cool, i use Emacs for clojure too