#clojure – 2012-11-02

2012-11-02

00:00	frenchyp	ok, thanks for clearing that out
00:10	brainproxy	best practices for exception messages?
00:11	brainproxy	i.e. should they (never) contain line breaks? maximum length?
00:26	jkkramer	brainproxy: no advice from me re messages, but you might consider using ex-info to include relevant data in the exception for the caller to check out
00:29	TimMc	See notes on slingshot.
00:36	brainproxy	jkkramer: thanks
00:36	brainproxy	TimMc: slingshot looks awesome, need to remember to make a study of it
01:20	myguidingstar	xeqi: thank you so much. I've written a very first repl
01:20	xeqi	myguidingstar: hurray!
02:30	ForSpareParts	Does Clojure code get cached somehow by clojure.lang.Compiler?
02:30	ForSpareParts	It looks like my Java program is running an old version of my Clojure code, but I don't know why.
02:38	amalloy	AOTed code lives on disk, and its compilation is generally pretty mysterious. lein clean will get rid of it
02:45	ForSpareParts	amalloy, How can I load a file on demand?
02:46	ForSpareParts	Like outside of the classpath?
02:47	ForSpareParts	I tried Compiler.loadFile(), but as you pointed out, that's getting me AOT'd code.
04:22	wingy	is there a way to make an xml string without the <xml> tag https://www.refheap.com/paste/6336
04:34	_ulises	wingy: any reason why you'd want that? is it to compose xml snippets?
04:34	wingy	_ulises: im going to send xml in a http request for a service and its documentation shows xml without the xml tag
04:35	_ulises	wingy: strange; have you tried sending the xlm with the <xml...> and seeing if the service complains? perhaps the <xml...> bit was omitted from the documentation for brevity
04:36	wingy	_ulises: perhaps they accept without xml?
04:36	_ulises	wingy: in any case, you could try generating the xml using hiccup
04:37	wingy	yeah that would be as good
04:37	wingy	easier to write since you don't have to use xml/element to create it
04:38	amalloy	you don't have to use xml/element for data.xml either
04:38	_ulises	amalloy to the rescue! \o/
04:38	amalloy	i added sexp-as-element to data.xml, which takes hiccup-style vectors
04:39	wingy	amalloy: in what version? i get an error while trying that
04:40	amalloy	shrug
04:40	amalloy	(and if you're using clojure.xml for anything...god help you. use clojure.data.xml, or any other viable tool)
04:40	wingy	im using clojure.data.xml
05:37	maleghast	Morning All...
05:40	ejackson	morning
05:41	maleghast	Anything exciting happening today?
05:41	_ulises	morning
05:41	maleghast	I mean it __is__ Friday ;-)
06:19	hyPiRion	It's the last day before tomorrow, if that counts for anything.
06:30	wingy	huh?
06:31	Raynes	whoosh
06:35	ejackson	whooooooosh
06:35	ejackson	i'm enjoying your enthusiasm there Raynes
06:35	Iceland_jack	Are you?
06:36	ejackson	i'm a big fan of enthusiasm
06:40	_ulises	I'm just an enthusiast of enthusiasm
06:40	_ulises	badum tish
06:41	ejackson	well done.
07:03	Cheiron	Hi, I want to add Maven Central repo to project.clj to get http://search.maven.org/#artifactdetails%7Corg.apache.zookeeper%7Czookeeper%7C3.3.2%7Cjar
07:03	Cheiron	what is the address of it?
07:17	jakubH	Cheiron: I believe that maven central is checked by lein by default
07:26	clgv	jakubH: Cheiron: yes, maven central is a default repository that is checked by leiningen
07:27	Cheiron	clgv: jakubh: then I don't know why it is complaining when getting zookeeper's Sun's jmx jars
07:27	clgv	Cheiron: well, what exactly does it complain?
07:27	Cheiron	Thanks by the way!
07:27	Cheiron	it can't get jmxri and jmxtools
07:27	clgv	Cheiron: most likely you have an error in [group-id/artifact-id version]
07:27	jakubH	there are always problems with things like the jmx jars; dtailed log of the error would help
07:28	Cheiron	will install them manually
07:28	jakubH	if you have maven, you can also run lein pom and mvn -X dependency:resolve to get detailed error messages
07:28	clgv	Cheiron: I dont see any direct dependency named "jmx..." in that POM
07:29	jakubH	Cheiron: you might also try to add the java.net repo as shown in https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj
07:30	Cheiron	I will, thanks fellas
07:33	jakubH	java.net doesn't help
07:33	Cheiron	meh, [org.apache.zookeeper/zookeeper "3.3.2"] needs jmx libs somehow
07:33	jakubH	the problem with Sun is that these stupid libs are under a license that doesn't allow them being in maven central
07:34	jakubH	here is it described: http://onemanwenttomow.wordpress.com/2007/12/31/maven2-log4j-and-jmx-dependencies/
07:35	jakubH	the same here http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7323248/coludnt-find-the-following-dependencies-com-sun-jmxjmxrijar1-2-1-and-com-su
07:35	jakubH	really extreme pain imposed by Sun+Oracle on the poor world :(
07:41	Cheiron	jakubH: Thanks fella!
07:45	jakubH	yw
08:13	mklappstuhl	https://www.refheap.com/paste/6339
08:19	xeqi	mklappstuhl: mean-daily-returns calls (daily-returns (:etf trade))
08:19	xeqi	which eventually gets to parse-file, which does :etf again
08:20	mklappstuhl	xeqi, man you were fast I was still writing (got distracted then)
08:20	mklappstuhl	xeqi, thank you
08:23	mklappstuhl	xeqi, how would you approach/debug this kind of issue beside looking at the code? It's hard to tell where stuff fails with clojure sometimes
08:26	xeqi	mklappstuhl: I've heard about debuggers like https://github.com/pallet/ritz or the one in eclipse, but I usually manually walk it or stick printlns in
08:28	xeqi	for example here, println in parse-file to make sure trade is nil, then println in daily-returns and see that trade is nil, then see (:etf trade) in mean-daily-returns
08:28	xeqi	for more complex things the call stack is invaluable
09:14	shriphani	hello everyone. I have a question about how somethings in scheme map to clojure. I remember that I could place several defines inside a function definition and use them in the function body. Apart from (let [foo (fn [x]…))) is there a better way to do something about internal functions that don't fit in a line ?
09:23	swarmer	shriphani: letfn ?
09:23	shriphani	swarmer: thanks.
09:57	Cheiron	any good libraries to work with HTTP in clj?
09:58	_ulises	Cheiron: try clj-http
09:58	Cheiron	any another funky cool lib?
10:02	notsonerdysunny	is there a way to have lein2 not check for the project dependencies from the web.. because I know they are already there in the local "~/.m2" cache .. and some of them are installed by me using "lein localrepo" .. this additional checking unnecesarrily delays starting of swank
10:04	cemerick	notsonerdysunny: use `lein -o …` for offline mode
10:05	MasseR	What's the library name for pattern matching?
10:05	xeqi	core.match
10:06	MasseR	Thanks
10:07	notsonerdysunny	thanks cemerick
10:07	notsonerdysunny	I am not able to get how to run lein2 swank-wrap .. I have already set the :main namespace in the project.clj so I tried "lein2 swank-wrap [4005]" with no success .. can you please help?
10:09	notsonerdysunny	specifying the namespace again on the lein2 commad helped me run lein2 swank-wrap 4005 <main-ns>
10:09	notsonerdysunny	thanks
10:11	alexnixon	Does a function already exist in clojure which can replace the anonymous fn here (essentially a non-variable-args version of 'apply')?: (condp #(%1 %2) 42 nil? "nil!" number? "number!")
10:13	alexnixon	(I can see other ways of writing this to achieve the same effect but I'm just interested whether this fn exists)
10:17	mklappstuhl	xeqi, how would I access the call stack?
10:18	_ulises	alexnixon: why not use (comp apply vector)?
10:18	_ulises	alexnixon: I know that wasn't your question though :)
10:20	alexnixon	,(condp (comp apply vector) 42 nil? "nil!" number? "number!")
10:20	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$apply>
10:20	_ulises	oh, it'd have to be the other way around
10:20	_ulises	I mean, reverse ... never mind, ignore me
10:21	alexnixon	_ulises: you can get close using apply with (condp apply [42] nil? "nil!" number? "number!")
10:22	_ulises	hrmph
10:25	Gmind	why (defn factorial2 [acc n]
10:25	Gmind	(if (< n 2)
10:25	Gmind	acc
10:25	Gmind	(recur (* acc n ) (dec n)))) will run for (factorial2 1 20) without overflow but larger will be trouble ?
10:25	Bronsa	mi sta venendo il cancro
10:25	Bronsa	ops. wrong chan.
10:25	solussd	Gmind: use ' instead of
10:26	solussd	it'll auto-promote to BigNums
10:26	Gmind	while (defn factorial [n acc] (if (< n 2) acc (recur (dec n) (* acc n)))) will be able to get to > 5000
10:26	solussd	Gmind: also, it should never be overflowing, you should be getting an overflow exception
10:27	Gmind	Yep, it's an exception
10:28	Gmind	ArithmeticException integer overflow
10:28	clgv	Gmind: the long type is finite. so if you exceed it you get an exception. with *' clojure will convert the long to a BigInt which can have arbitrary size
10:29	solussd	yeah, BigInt, not BigNum.
10:31	Gmind	clgv mean "cai l*n gi vay" ?
10:32	Gmind	solussd: what's the difference ?
10:32	clgv	Gmind: hwat?
10:32	Gmind	what's your nick mean ?
10:32	Gmind	I just guess its meaning
10:32	mklappstuhl	I'm generating a list of hashmaps here but I'd like to have these sorted by one field ...
10:32	clgv	nothing special
10:32	solussd	one is for ints, the other for floats, etc
10:32	mklappstuhl	how would I use something like sorted-map in this case?
10:32	mklappstuhl	https://github.com/mklappstuhl/computational-investing.clj/blob/master/src/mklappstuhl/stock_utils/data.clj#L31
10:32	clgv	mklappstuhl: sort-by
10:34	clgv	&(sort-by :b [{:a 10 :b 1} {:a 2 :b 2} {:a 8 :b 3} {:a 1 :b 4}])
10:34	lazybot	⇒ ({:a 10, :b 1} {:a 2, :b 2} {:a 8, :b 3} {:a 1, :b 4})
10:34	clgv	&(sort-by :a [{:a 10 :b 1} {:a 2 :b 2} {:a 8 :b 3} {:a 1 :b 4}])
10:34	lazybot	⇒ ({:a 1, :b 4} {:a 2, :b 2} {:a 8, :b 3} {:a 10, :b 1})
10:40	Gmind	clgv: thank for *', that really work
10:41	clgv	Gmind: the main problem with faculty is that it grows so fast ;)
10:42	Gmind	I'm new to Clojure, as on the way exploring its feature, and I stopped at this Recur keyword for a while. Must be me way too familiar with the old recur way
10:43	clgv	"old recur way"?
10:53	Gmind1	clgv: like non-tail recursion
10:56	solussd	part of me likes the fact that I must be explicit in performing tail call recursion, rather than knowing that certain seemingly inefficient code will be optimized into tail call recursion by the compiler (like in scheme)
11:05	Gmind1	solussd: as paul said somewhere if I can remember right, he said that writing code is what developer responsible for, optimization is what compiler made for.
11:06	Gmind1	.. anyway, just laughing so much when reading this http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyWeHateLisp =]
11:06	solussd	Gmind1: and I wholeheartedly agree-- that said, i dont want to have to avoid recursive calls altogether b/c i dont know weather or not they;ll blow up. if I explicitly make a tail call in a way I know is "safe", I'll use more tail calls. :D
11:07	Gmind1	some reasons are very ridiculous
11:07	solussd	*whether
11:07	MasseR	The match library has a warning that it's alpha quality and shouldn't be used with aot. Does 'lein uberjar' aot compiling?
11:08	Gmind1	that's right . I just feel it's not straight forward sometimes =.="
11:09	jweiss	can someone recommend a way to log to a different file for each thread in the system? seems inefficient to have one function look up the current thread name and rebind out to a FileOutputStream to the thread's file every time a log statement is written.
11:10	jweiss	and using a binding form doesn't work either, because of futures and binding conveyance
11:13	clgv	MasseR: if you specify a :main class with a "-main" function then there will be AOT compiling
11:14	clgv	jweiss: you could use java's ThreadLocal class
11:15	clgv	jweiss: that one will call an initialize method for every thread it was not used yet
11:19	MasseR	clgv: Ok thanks
11:31	clgv	How do I get something more detailed than "Error loading project.clj" from lein2?
11:40	ambrosebs	Pretty cool example of what occurrence typing/heterogeneous maps helps Typed Clojure infer https://gist.github.com/4001974
11:42	Anderkent	clgv: run with DEBUG set
11:42	Anderkent	clgv: DEBUG= lein <command>
11:43	clgv	Anderkent: thx
11:45	pjb3	Hey, I have a clojure app where I'd like it to connect to one database if it's running tests and a different database otherwise
11:46	pjb3	is there a way to set an env var or something when you run lein test?
11:46	pjb3	I mean, I could do APP_ENV=test lein test
11:46	egghead	I usually use bindings for that pjb3, something like (with-dev-db (db stuff))
11:46	pjb3	but it seems like there must be a conventional solution to this already
11:47	egghead	I'm not sure if it's the best solution, but having stuff like dbhost and dbport be dynamically bound has worked for me
11:47	pjb3	egghead: but how do you make the binding behave differently depending on if you run lein test vs. if you are just running the code in lein repl
11:48	stack	hello, I was wondering why about this strange code https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RestFn.java
11:49	egghead	lein test is hard coded to use the test bindings, lein repl I use whatever bindings I want
11:49	alexnixon	pjb3: I've used midje's 'around' form for that in the past
11:51	pjb3	egghead: how is lein test hard coded to use the test bindings?
11:52	pjb3	like, in every test you surround it in (with-dev-db)?
11:53	egghead	ya
11:53	egghead	again, probably not the coolest/cleanest way to do it, just what i've done in the past :)
11:58	alexnixon	egghead: AIUI that's an idiomatic solution
11:59	egghead	good to know
12:01	pjb3	not a fan of wrapping every call in the tests in a macro
12:03	pjb3	I know it's heresy in the Clojure community, but a global var is a better solution then bindings that are dynamically scoped at a high-level, IMO
12:03	alexnixon	pjb3: you could consider using midje: look at the sql example example under "The longer version" https://github.com/marick/Midje/wiki/Setup%2C-Teardown%2C-and-State
12:04	dnolen	pjb3: it just depends.
12:12	pjb3	starting to think APP_ENV=test lein test isn't such a bad solution :)
12:12	technomancy	pjb3: typically you would load test-specific config from the test-resources directory, which is only on the classpath during test
12:13	pjb3	test-resources?
12:13	technomancy	you don't need any special support from your testing lib just to change the DB connection parameters
12:14	pjb3	technomancy: is there an example of this somewhere?
12:15	technomancy	pjb3: all the projects I've worked on have used the same config for dev/test and just pulled in special config during production from the deployment mechanism
12:15	technomancy	so I don't know off the top of my head
12:16	pjb3	technomancy: what did you mean by test-resources directory, like test/resources/dbconfig.clj or something?
12:17	technomancy	no, just test-resources/config.clj
12:18	pjb3	what is test-resources? Is that a leiningen thing?
12:18	technomancy	yeah
12:18	pjb3	is that mentioned in the docs somewhere?
12:18	joegallo	technomancy: i work on a project like that, we do the same thing.
12:19	technomancy	pjb3: dev-resources certainly is... not sure about test-resources
12:19	technomancy	joegallo: you don't say?
12:19	bobbrahms	I have this large java maven spring project that I'd like to use clojure with. I'm using clojure-maven-plugin. The existing java build builds classes into target/classes. When I mvn clojure:compile I get ClassNotFound exceptions where I refer to my java classes. How do I tell the clojure-maven-plugin where to look for my java classes?
12:19	joegallo	small world
12:21	technomancy	https://github.com/Seajure/metaverse/blob/master/test/metaverse/nser.clj
12:22	technomancy	^ nix for namespaces
12:26	egghead	i've been doing that scala course by odersky, its making me appreciate clojure more and more
12:28	dnolen_	low hanging CLJS fruit for somebody w/ CA who wants to help out - fix Herwig's patch for CLJS-401, then we can cut a new CLJS release - http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-401
12:29	bobbrahms	Can anyone tell me how to tell clojure-maven-plugin where to look for my java class files?
12:29	bobbrahms	or point me in the right direction?
12:30	bobbrahms	I'm trying to add clojure to my spring project, but the plugin doesn't seem to know where my java class files are.
12:31	technomancy	bobbrahms: the guy who knows clojure-maven-plugin lives in new zealand, so you're not likely to get a response for another few hours just fyi
12:32	bobbrahms	Thanks for the info!
12:44	Anderkent	bobbrahms: can you do clojure:repl and print out the classpath? See if target/classes is on it (it should).
12:48	qubit[01]	!paste
12:48	qubit[01]	(paste)
12:49	qubit[01]	Hi all, Im new to clojure, I have a file that im parsing whose 4th and 3rd columns are high and low temperature, how would I store the smallest spread ? http://pastebin.com/0BANKrmF
12:49	qubit[01]	Im struggling with how to set the variable, I know (min ), just how do I assign it to something to return ?
12:51	S11001001	qubit[01]: you can't set variables
12:51	S11001001	&(doc min)
12:51	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/min ([x] [x y] [x y & more]) Returns the least of the nums. nil
12:51	S11001001	qubit[01]: be prepared for a completely different way of problem solving than what you're used to
12:51	S11001001	&(doc line-seq)
12:51	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/line-seq ([rdr]) Returns the lines of text from rdr as a lazy sequence of strings. rdr must implement java.io.BufferedReader. nil
12:51	S11001001	&(doc map)
12:51	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/map ([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & colls]) Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in ea... https://www.refheap.com/paste/6342
12:51	S11001001	&(doc apply)
12:51	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/apply ([f args] [f x args] [f x y args] [f x y z args] [f a b c d & args]) Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending intervening arguments to args. nil
12:52	S11001001	qubit[01]: everything I just asked lazybot about are your essential tools to solve your probelm
12:52	S11001001	problem
12:52	qubit[01]	hmm
12:53	Anderkent	qubit[01]: you might want to make a function that given a filename returns a list of differences between 3rd and 4th column values
12:54	qubit[01]	ahh ok, thanks :)
12:54	Anderkent	qubit[01]: then having that list you can reduce it the smallest one using min
12:54	qubit[01]	coolio, I'm working through codekata to try to learn clojure
12:54	S11001001	&(min 2 3 1 4 5 7 32)
12:54	lazybot	⇒ 1
12:54	Anderkent	have fun :)
13:00	jro	(defn lz[i] (cons i (lz (lazy-seq (inc i))))) (take 3 (lz 3))
13:00	jro	StackOverflowError ontrail.core/lz/fn--408 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:31)
13:02	rjo	I do not see problem in my lazy sequence ^
13:07	raek	rjo: (assuming you are "jro") you should write it as (defn lz [i] (lazy-seq (cons i (lz (inc i)))))
13:08	raek	that is, lazy-seq wraps a seq (here a cons) and delays it
13:10	rjo	thanks! I was looking the documentation in (defn lz [i] (lazy-seq (cons i (lz (inc i)))))
13:10	rjo	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/lazy-seq
13:10	rjo	sorry
13:11	rjo	is this somehow releted to (clojure-version)
13:11	rjo	"1.4.0"
13:11	rjo	since the documentation is for 1.3
13:11	Anderkent	Anyone using REPL-y had an issue where ctrl-c while entering multiline statements messes up your terminal?
13:12	raek	rjo: you can also write it like this: (defn lz [i] (cons i (lazy-seq (lz (inc i)))))
13:12	raek	but then the first step is not lazy
13:12	Anderkent	rjo: in general your recursion must be within lazy-seq
13:12	raek	rjo: in your example you had the lazy-seq around the argument to lz, not around the (lz ...) expression)
13:19	rjo	oh, thanks. I was blind.
13:24	bobbrahms	Anderkent: The directory is in the classpath. I see where my error is, I have the class in a different place than it should be. Thanks!
13:25	Anderkent	Glad you figured it out.
13:25	qubit[01]	how do I get this http://pastebin.com/mQsjcJHT to work, its just returning the entire list instead of the max entry in the list
13:25	qubit[01]	is there a spread operator in clojure ?
13:26	alexnixon	,(doc apply)
13:26	clojurebot	"([f args] [f x args] [f x y args] [f x y z args] [f a b c d ...]); Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending intervening arguments to args."
13:27	rjo	is it generally a good pattern in clojure to define lazy seqs?
13:28	technomancy	rjo: depends what "define lazy seqs" means?
13:28	rjo	well, in this case I wanted to create time intervals consisting of weeks
13:29	rjo	so I wrote:
13:29	rjo	(defn from [date-time] (cons (week-period date-time) (lazy-seq (from (time/plus date-time (time/days 7))))))
13:29	rjo	(defn n-weeeks-from [date-time n] (take n (from date-time)))
13:29	qubit[01]	any critiques on this http://pastebin.com/Kv2LdgYg ? Gets the lowest temperature spread from a column based file
13:29	technomancy	calling lazy-seq directly is usually unnecessary unless you're writing very low-level code
13:30	TimMc	Really?
13:30	mpan	Is there an approximate equivalent to the programming style of http://hackedbellini.org/development/writing-asynchronous-python-code-with-twisted-using-inlinecallbacks/ for doing evented code in Clojure?
13:31	TimMc	If by "low-level" you mean "helper fns", sure.
13:31	rjo	technomancy, do you mean that (n-weeks-from [date-time n] ... (map (partial * 7) (range 0 n)) is better?
13:32	technomancy	rjo: probably, yeah
13:32	mpenet	mpan: Lamina is probably what you are looking for
13:33	technomancy	TimMc: I've only written a lazy-seq directly once, and even that I realized three hours later could be expressed in terms of for
13:33	mpan	And sort-of related to the previous question: Is there a way to make a "generator"? i.e. some value that can be called and maintains internal execution state between calls
13:33	mpan	mpenet: I'll look into that. Thanks!
13:33	TimMc	mpan: lazy-seq :-)
13:33	raek	mpan: lazy sequences and functions closing over atoms can both be used for that
13:34	S11001001	&(doc reductions) ;mpan, or what TimMc said
13:34	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/reductions ([f coll] [f init coll]) Returns a lazy seq of the intermediate values of the reduction (as per reduce) of coll by f, starting with init. nil
13:34	raek	'iterate' can be worth checking out too
13:34	mpan	Those take explicit state passed in and out?
13:34	rjo	is there any other differences in those two, other than just the style?
13:35	S11001001	mpan: yep
13:35	raek	mpan: yes, state is "updated" via recursion
13:35	mpan	But is there a way to write code such that an expression "yields" multiple values as it gets called multiple times?
13:35	mpan	Or is that stylistically non-idiomatic?
13:35	S11001001	mpan: that is stylistically verboten.
13:35	raek	(lazy-seq ...) is kind of like yield
13:35	S11001001	mpan: referential transparency is greatly favored
13:35	technomancy	mpan: if you have multiple values, you should use a seq
13:35	mpan	All right. Thanks so much, you all!
13:37	Anderkent	qubit[01]: looks okay, you can use % instead of %1 in your lambda if you only have one arg in it. You might also want to use split-lines instead of split, unless you really only want \n and not \r\n.
13:37	qubit[01]	Anderkent, ok both good suggestions :)
14:02	qubit[01]	who would I return a range in a list, like arr[5 .. 12] ?
14:02	qubit[01]	which would return elements 5 - 12 as a new list
14:02	dgrnbrg	qubit[01]: are you using vectors or sequences?
14:02	technomancy	qubit[01]: take/drop
14:02	dgrnbrg	or subvec
14:03	qubit[01]	vectors
14:03	qubit[01]	ok cool
14:06	xeqi	mklappstuhl: you could (throw (Exception. "forced exception")) or such when the :eft in the case your paste had. There are other ways, but thats the easiest
14:07	TimMc	qubit[01]: NB: subvec just does index arithmetic on the original vector (and thus keeps a pointer to the whole thing).
14:32	qubit[01]	any critiques on this binary search in clojure ? Doesnt quite feel right http://pastebin.com/9mi9f1ti
14:35	S11001001	qubit[01]: change bsearch calls to "recur" instead
14:35	qubit[01]	,(recur)
14:35	TimMc	qubit[01]: You're using a random-access algorithm on a sequential-access data structure.
14:36	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
14:36	S11001001	qubit[01]: also remember that `if' is like ternary op, not a "statement"
14:36	qubit[01]	,(doc recur)
14:36	clojurebot	No entiendo
14:36	nDuff	qubit[01]: ...by the way, please consider using a pastebin without the flashy animated ads in the future. gist.github.com and refheap are both good.
14:36	technomancy	nDuff: how many times is this going to happen before you break down and submit a lazybot pull request? =)
14:36	S11001001	qubit[01]: and refheap is clojurian so it's all dogfoody
14:37	TimMc	mmm, dogfood
14:37	qubit[01]	kk thanks all
14:37	qubit[01]	https://www.refheap.com/paste <-- much prettier
14:37	nDuff	technomancy: Heh. Last time I looked at lazybot's source, I didn't see a bunch of known existing triggers there -> assumed they were out-of-band somewhere, and didn't want to dig.
14:38	technomancy	nDuff: annoyance is a powerful motivator though
14:38	qubit[01]	TimMc, what is a random access data structure in clojure ?
14:38	TimMc	vector
14:40	qubit[01]	coolio
14:45	TimMc	nDuff: Oh those args... that must be for hinting, yeah?
14:47	nDuff	TimMc: Hard to have hinting work right if you don't know the object you're going to be invoked against until runtime... and why not take class/type names, then, rather than meaningless names?
14:49	TimMc	&(let [& 5] ((fn [&] &)))
14:49	lazybot	⇒ 5
14:54	dnolen_	bbloom: CLJS-401 resolved
14:54	egghead	is there something like 'some' that will return the found item rather than just returning true or false?
14:55	egghead	i.e. return the first thing in the collection to satisfy th epredicate
14:55	technomancy	egghead: (comp first filter)
14:55	egghead	hmm, and so because first is lazy it won't filter the entire collection?
14:56	egghead	pretty nice... thanks technomancy
14:56	technomancy	sure
14:56	technomancy	might be more complicated with chunked sequences
14:57	egghead	hmm, swapping out (comp first filter) with some worked... now to try to wrap my head around how that composition works...
14:57	bbloom	dnolen_: good
15:01	TimMc	&(let [& 0 ampers (memfn assoc & _)] (ampers [1 2 3] 'first 'place))
15:01	lazybot	⇒ [(first place) 2 3]
15:05	amalloy	you are a sneaky devil, TimMc
15:14	callen	oh herro UnicodeDecodeError, long time no see.
15:16	TimMc	amalloy: I'm actually rather dissatisfied with it. I feel like it could be more compact and misleading.
15:16	TimMc	It's not immediately counterobvious enough to be cute.
15:18	Bronsa	playing with the clojure compiler http://i.imgur.com/vagyp.png
15:25	lynaghk	dnolen_: ping
15:27	dnolen_	lynaghk: pong
15:28	lynaghk	dnolen_: What's the story with the fancy-unification you mentioned to me at Strata?
15:28	lynaghk	dnolen_: is that something that's going to land soon, on the drawing board, or what?
15:28	dnolen_	lynaghk: I have a pretty nice idea.
15:29	dnolen_	lynaghk: during unification you can queue a constraint for a var. after unification these will be run to make sure they weren't violated. I think this should handle your use case cleanly.
15:30	lynaghk	dnolen_: are you in the market for implementation help in the next week? I'm pushing pretty hard on rolling out an alpha for the chart stuff and would like to start filling out the rewrites.
15:30	dnolen_	lynaghk: definitely on the table for 0.8.0, after I get out of all this election insanity, I'm planning on working on it.
15:30	dnolen_	lynaghk: not planning on doing anything on this until after Nov. 6th
15:31	dnolen_	lynaghk: it's a minor change that I can apply to master so maybe mid next week
15:31	lynaghk	dnolen_: okay. You're thinking that there'd be an extra parameter, "constraints", given to IUnifyTerms?
15:31	dnolen_	lynaghk: no need
15:32	dnolen_	lynaghk: you can cue constraints on the substitution which comes in an extra parameter already
15:32	dnolen_	er queue
15:32	lynaghk	dnolen_: ah, yeah. that was my second guess = )
15:34	dnolen_	lynaghk: yeah it should be pretty simple and very useful. one place I could get help is how to support this via simple unification where the unification form is usually quoted ... multimethods?
15:34	lynaghk	dnolen_: Not sure how I'd implement a special symbol meaning "no value for this key" with that system, though.
15:34	dnolen_	lynaghk: ^
15:35	lynaghk	dnolen_: not following. A multimethod so that people can extend the unification sematics a la cart for their own datatypes?
15:36	dnolen_	lynaghk: when I implement I plan on writing up an example in the repo to demonstrate how this works.
15:36	dnolen_	lynaghk: no how interpret custom symbols
15:36	TimMc	Bronsa: Creepy.
15:36	Bronsa	thanks.
15:36	dnolen_	lynaghk: '(1 2 ?x) where ?x must be a map, or any arbitrary predicate really
15:36	lynaghk	dnolen_: ah. args to the multimethod would be what?
15:38	dnolen_	lynaghk: or might be better to pass constraints as map of constraint fns ...
15:38	dnolen_	lynaghk: this is what I mean by i could use help, I don't know what the interface should look like. implementing the internal is easy
15:39	lynaghk	dnolen_: I'll gist up my wildest dreams this afternoon and we can see if they make any sense
15:40	dnolen_	lynaghk: that will be very helpful.
15:49	dnolen_	lynaghk: I'm assuming for your use case simple constraints are sufficient? I've been thinking about "deep constraints" as well after seeing Will & Dan's talk at StrangeLoop
15:49	lynaghk	dnolen_: yes, I believe my constraints are simple. Not sure what the technical meaning of deep is though.
15:49	dnolen_	i.e. no subterm of this term should violate this constraint
15:50	dnolen_	'(1 2 ?x) where is x is an arbitrary nesting of lists where even numbers don't appear.
15:51	lynaghk	dnolen_: yes, everything I have in mind satisfies that---assuming there is a way to handle the "doesn't have key". E.g., {:this 1 :no-haz !_ :that {:also-no-has !_ :c 3}}
15:51	lynaghk	dnolen_: yeah, nothing like that as far as I'm aware.
15:51	dnolen_	cool
15:52	dnolen_	the simpler case is easier to handle anyhow, I can the other thing later.
15:52	dnolen_	I can add I mean
16:20	holo	hi
16:20	holo	##(= '' "spam")
16:20	lazybot	⇒ true
16:21	TimMc	...
16:21	holo	i know single quotes for strings is not valid in clojure, but returning true is an expected behaviour even?
16:21	S11001001	holo: are you looking for [+' +]
16:21	bbloom	,(count '(= '' "spam"))
16:21	clojurebot	2
16:22	TimMc	bbloom: not quite
16:22	bbloom	,'(= '' "spam")
16:22	clojurebot	(= (quote (quote "spam")))
16:22	holo	TimMc, haha, i think it was yesterday you asked me if i knew about this. today by accident, i did it again
16:22	bbloom	my point was that what looks like 2 arguments to = is actually one argument
16:22	bbloom	,(= 1)
16:22	clojurebot	true
16:22	TimMc	bbloom: Oh wait, you're right.
16:23	holo	bblom, great
16:23	holo	i mean *bbloom
16:23	TimMc	,(count ''(= '' "spam")) ;; this is basically what I was thinking of
16:23	clojurebot	2
16:24	dnolen_	jimduey: I'm curious if you ever tried benchmarking the monad versions of core.logic (beyond the fork/join one) and how they fared?
16:24	TimMc	,(count (flatten ''''''''' spam))
16:24	clojurebot	9
16:24	bbloom	many clojure (and most lisps) functions have seemingly odd arity base cases, but they are actually useful for code generation targets
16:24	TimMc	Unary literals!
16:24	bbloom	consider:
16:24	bbloom	,(*)
16:24	clojurebot	1
16:24	bbloom	,(+)
16:24	clojurebot	0
16:24	TimMc	,(=)
16:24	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$-EQ->
16:24	S11001001	because it makes them monoidal
16:25	bbloom	S11001001: shh beat me to it :-P
16:25	bbloom	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoid
16:25	bbloom	not sure why = isn't defined for 0 arguments
16:25	bbloom	it is defined for 1, however
16:25	S11001001	among the clojure data structure types, there are more monoids than non-monoids
16:26	ToBeReplaced	feel like i'm missing a core func... how would you express "integral type"... best i have is #(and (not (ratio? %)) (rational? %))
16:26	bbloom	,(doc integer?)
16:26	clojurebot	"([n]); Returns true if n is an integer"
16:26	bbloom	,((juxt integer? class) 1)
16:26	clojurebot	[true java.lang.Long]
16:26	ToBeReplaced	,(integer? 1M)
16:26	clojurebot	false
16:27	ToBeReplaced	,(#(and (not (ratio? %)) (rational? %)) 1M)
16:27	clojurebot	true
16:27	bbloom	hm
16:27	S11001001	,(class 1M)
16:27	clojurebot	java.math.BigDecimal
16:27	bbloom	shrug numbers are hard :-P
16:27	bbloom	oh yeah, you're looking for N
16:27	bbloom	,(integer 1N)
16:27	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: integer in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
16:27	bbloom	,(integer? 1N)
16:27	clojurebot	true
16:27	ToBeReplaced	ah ya
16:28	S11001001	,(#(and (not (ratio? %)) (rational? %)) 1.5M)
16:28	clojurebot	true
16:28	bbloom	integer? seems to work :-)
16:28	ToBeReplaced	yea integer? sounds good :) thanks
16:30	lynaghk	dnolen_: https://gist.github.com/4004131
16:32	dnolen_	lynaghk: thx, will check it out.
16:33	lynaghk	dnolen_: thank you! If some of those things are terrible ideas definitely let me know---I haven't done enough logicy stuff to get a feel for what is and is not a wise systems decision.
16:35	bbloom	lynaghk: cool stuff :-) i've been thinking about lots of the same kinds of things with respect to declarative UI
16:36	lynaghk	bbloom: it's easy to imagine cool things. Just need to get it workin' now = )
16:36	bbloom	lynaghk: the rewrite rules are kinda cousins with cascading stylesheets....
16:36	lynaghk	bbloom: ehhhhhh...that is not obvious to me.
16:38	bbloom	lynaghk: consider your :fill color property. someone describing a graph could omit some key style information, like fill color, but specify rewrite rules to insert colors later
16:38	lynaghk	bbloom: especially since I don't think the rules are necessarily composable. Having an automagic priority model that worked based on specificity of the match would be cool though
16:39	lynaghk	bbloom: the current implementation renders out to SVG and so user-provided CSS stylesheets are definitely on the table
16:39	bbloom	lynaghk: specificity is only one option for composition
16:41	bbloom	lynaghk: WPF doesn't have a specificity model. it just has a staged model: 1) core-styles, 2) theme, 3) control-styles, 4) app-styles, 5) animated values
16:41	bbloom	something like that
16:41	bbloom	lynaghk: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms745683.aspx
16:42	bbloom	lynaghk: ah, here it is: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms743230.aspx#listing
16:43	bbloom	they call it "precedence"
16:44	TimMc	$findarg map % [1 1N 1M 1.5 1/2] [true true false false false]
16:45	lazybot	[]
16:45	TimMc	:-(
16:46	bbloom	lynaghk: does that make the connection clearer?
16:47	TimMc	$findarg % 2 3 5
16:48	lazybot	[clojure.core/+ clojure.core/unchecked-add clojure.core/+' clojure.core/unchecked-add-int]
16:54	TimMc	$findarg every? % [1 1.2 1/2] true
16:54	lazybot	[]
16:54	TimMc	$findfn 1 true
16:54	lazybot	[clojure.core/== clojure.core/odd? clojure.core/number? clojure.core/integer? clojure.core/distinct? clojure.core/boolean clojure.core/< clojure.core/= clojure.core/> clojure.core/>= clojure.core/<= clojure.core/pos? clojure.core/rational? clojure.core/await-for]
16:55	TimMc	Is findarg just timing out, or what?
16:56	holo	how do i remove these extra parentheses around the map? '('('({})))
16:56	holo	i mean, in an obvious way
16:57	bbloom	holo: huh? those parens are a list
16:57	technomancy	meta-s
16:57	bbloom	,'()
16:57	S11001001	holo: there's no good answer without more details
16:57	clojurebot	()
16:57	bbloom	,''()
16:57	clojurebot	(quote ())
16:57	holo	bbloom, do you know any paretheses that aren't lists in clojure?
16:58	Chousuke	unless you count comments, there aren't any :P
16:58	S11001001	&((juxt identity type) (map identity [1,2,3]))
16:58	lazybot	⇒ [(1 2 3) clojure.lang.LazySeq]
16:58	TimMc	holo: Are you asking about a value or text in your editor?
16:58	S11001001	&(type '(1,2,3))
16:58	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.PersistentList
16:59	holo	TimMc, it's a value. i'm assuming the number of enclosing lists is unknown
17:00	holo	S11001001, i'm sorry for the ill explained question. i hope it's clear now
17:01	Raynes	(first (filter map? (iterate first l)))
17:01	TimMc	holo: Do you know the difference between '('('({}))) and '((({}))) ?
17:03	S11001001	holo: Raynes's solution is probably what you want, but you really shouldn't end up with any data in that shape ("unknown" recursion without an explicit termination data case is a recipe for destructuring disaster)
17:03	holo	TimMc, no. my verbose example would be (list (list (list {})))
17:04	TimMc	holo: Ah, that is different from what you asked for!
17:05	holo	TimMc, i see. i think your example with just one quote does match the last one i wrote
17:05	holo	Raynes, you're great! thanks
17:06	ivan	http://emareaf.deviantart.com/art/Rich-Hickey-321501046 via GIS
17:07	ivan	(trying to find the "it's just data!")
17:07	TimMc	holo: 'foo is (quote foo)
17:07	TimMc	ivan: Haha, nice.
17:08	holo	S11001001, a query to a database will return me a ({something}) e.g. i think it would be a good idea to not worry the amount of enclosing around the data, and just always apply that function
17:09	TimMc	That sounds like a very bad idea.
17:09	holo	TimMc, that's possible
17:09	S11001001	holo: TimMc merely typed faster than I could.
17:12	TimMc	Aside from weird future bugs, you're going to miss out on patterns in your code that you would later be able to factor out.
17:12	holo	TimMc, this is just for foreign code. that i'm not able or willing to factor
17:14	mpan	Guys, how relevant/useful/necessary do you suppose some of the formal theory is to practically using a functional language?
17:14	TimMc	holo: I'm not sure what you're talking about, but OK.
17:14	Raynes	TimMc: He is saying that this is code that he doesn't control that is giving him the crappy listified result.
17:15	TimMc	Raynes: holo is still writing code, and presumably more than one piece...
17:15	S11001001	holo: ok then, as long as you have some guarantees somewhere
17:15	S11001001	mpan: quite
17:16	holo	yes, it's like Raynes say. sorry my slow reply
17:17	TimMc	mpan: It's useful, but not essential.
17:40	mpan	I tried to ask this earlier, and I'm not sure if my net connection died right before or right after the message went through. Apologies if I'm being repetitive.
17:40	mpan	I'm just wondering, how necessary is it to understand the underlying theory to use a functional language effectively?
17:40	mpan	For example, I was reading about fixed point combinators, but I can't imagine how the idea came about or how concrete examples were discovered.
17:49	S11001001	mpan: S11001001: mpan: quite\r\nTimMc: mpan: It's useful, but not essential.
17:50	mpan	Awesome! Thanks!
17:50	technomancy	be sure to read at least Out of the Tarpit and Equal Rights for Functional Objects
17:51	amalloy	mpan: http://lazybot.org/logs/#clojure/
17:51	mpan	Thank you.
17:52	mpan	I was looking at a different logger before, but that one seems to be delayed and batched, and it hadn't gotten up to anywhere near the present time
17:52	S11001001	amalloy: in this case, lazybot split from me for a chunk
17:53	amalloy	really? what's different?
17:53	S11001001	(5:19:35 PM) S11001001: lazybot: mail mpan S11001001: mpan: quite\r\nTimMc: mpan: It's useful, but not essential.
17:54	amalloy	~search for mail
17:54	clojurebot	if you can access the email account that is signed up then you winn
17:54	amalloy	dangit, i don't remember clojurebot's log-search feature. hiredman?
17:54	amalloy	because i didn't see that message either, S11001001
17:54	mpan	Strange, though, because every one of my TCP connections believed they were still alive
17:54	hiredman	it is disabled
17:54	mpan	I thought they timed out much quicker than that
17:54	mpan	(They just didn't work.)
17:55	hiredman	when I moved clojurebot to a t1.micro the oomkiller kept killing elasticsearch (provides the indexing and search)
17:55	jimduey	dnolen_: re: benchmarking core.logic. I haven't yet, but I'm working towards doing that.
17:58	dnolen_	jimduey: cool, curious to hear about that.
18:03	lpvb	what happened to the clojure android effort?
18:04	pisketti	Was there any?
18:04	lpvb	._.
18:04	mpan	I remember seeing proof-of-concept demos
18:04	jimduey	dnolen_: I'm thinking (hoping :)) to see quite an improvement when using the continuation monad.
18:04	pisketti	lpvb: awesome idea
18:05	Raynes	$google lein-droid
18:05	lazybot	[alexander-yakushev/lein-droid · GitHub] https://github.com/alexander-yakushev/lein-droid
18:06	dnolen_	jimduey: cool! I'm skeptical about the performance of multiple monads in core.logic (I think you alluded to this in your post) but I'm interested in the numbers.
18:44	ticking	Um, are performance improving patcheswelcome to the core? (Factor 3x on partition-by)
18:45	dnolen_	ticking: they are
18:45	dnolen_	lynaghk: ping
18:46	ticking	dnolen_: cool, I assume the requirement to sign the contributors agreement is transitive?
18:48	dnolen_	ticking: you mean had signed for a specific project?
18:50	ticking	dnolen_, no I mean that only the final contributor has to sign it, so that the "author" doesn't
18:51	ticking	I think it could take quite a while for the paper to arrive in the usa from germany ^^ a hierarchy would be usefull ^^
18:52	ticking	say I'd put the code in public domain or gpl or whatever and somebody else put it into a pull request
18:59	dnolen_	ticking: don't really understand the finer points of EPL style licenses - perhaps someone else can say something about that.
18:59	jonasac	is it possible for clojure or java programs in general i guess to write persistent data to a file inside a jar ?
18:59	ticking	dnolen_ hrhr thanks anyway :D
19:31	lynaghk	dnolen_: pong
19:33	dnolen_	lynaghk: hey, so yeah most of that looks possible - the `or` bit requires some thinking, but doesn't seem hard. honestly the most challenging thing is determining the interface.
19:33	lynaghk	dnolen_: yeah, I thought that was the case. Nothing I'm trying to do is too crazy. I mean, I feel it's not even really logic programming since there is no backwards/generative magic.
19:34	dnolen_	lynaghk: I'm inclined to change prep to take a form + constraints on the vars and perhaps provide some other form for sugar which will allow for some flexiblity for experimentation.
19:35	dnolen_	in anycase I'll try to add the internals for this + some simple demos later next week.
19:35	lynaghk	dnolen_: that makes a lot of sense, but I wonder if that would mean my syntax is impossible.
19:36	lynaghk	dnolen_: I mean, if I wanted to I could have written each rule + constraints within the body of a run and then iterate over them manually.
19:37	dnolen_	lynaghk: no, but I'm not sure if the specific syntax is something core.logic needs to provide. but definitely interested in anything that make it simple to do what you want.
19:38	dnolen_	,(meta (first '(^foo ?x)))
19:38	clojurebot	{:tag foo}
19:38	lynaghk	dnolen_: yeah, agreed. Basically it comes down to how people can hook into the walk that happens during unification or if they're going to need to walk their stuff themselves first
19:38	dnolen_	lynaghk: prep could look at symbol metadata ...
19:38	dnolen_	,(meta (first '(^::foo ?x)))
19:38	clojurebot	{:sandbox/foo true}
19:38	lynaghk	dnolen_: which will probably come down to how crazy their syntax is.
19:38	dnolen_	that's actually kind of nice
19:38	dnolen_	,(meta (first '(^::not-present ?x)))
19:38	clojurebot	{:sandbox/not-present true}
19:39	dnolen_	,(meta (first '(^::numeric ?x)))
19:39	clojurebot	{:sandbox/numeric true}
19:39	lynaghk	Not all of the constraints are on a single var, though. The not-present constraint, for instance, you can't use because the standard unification will fail
19:40	dnolen_	lynaghk: I got some ideas about this ;) we can do this during prep
19:40	dnolen_	^::numeric ?x could return a logic+var w/ constraint instead of just a logic var.
19:40	dnolen_	anyways gotta do some other things but I got some ideas
19:41	lynaghk	dnolen_: ahhh. yeah, definitely. Thanks for your thoughts on this
19:41	lynaghk	dnolen_: we can get it all figured out in Raleigh = )
19:41	dnolen_	yes!
19:49	ivan	hope you weren't interested in any of the comments on bugs.sun.com
19:49	ivan	https://blogs.oracle.com/darcy/entry/jdk_bug_migration_bugs_sun
19:57	ivan	http://www.xmlvm.org/overview/ huh
20:00	bbloom	it's extensible!
20:00	bbloom	or should i say:
20:00	bbloom	eXtensible!
20:01	lynaghk	bbloom: sorry for missing your comment earlier. I'd just left the keyboard
20:01	bbloom	lynaghk: no worries
20:01	AtKaaZ	hi, is there some editor/ide which can do refactoring like renaming vars or function names in all relevant places?
20:01	lynaghk	bbloom: leaving again now, but I'll take a look at that stuff later. I'm trying to push out some of this grammar of graphics stuff before I leave for Sweden on Monday, so I'll ping you with info about the alpha if you're interested in kicking the tires.
20:02	bbloom	lynaghk: sure, would be happy to try it out and report back my experiences
20:02	lynaghk	bbloom: rad. Any pref on language? Right now Python, R, JavaScript, and Clojure are the targets.
20:03	bbloom	lynaghk: i assume Clojure would be the easiest initial target, no?
20:03	lynaghk	bbloom: yeah, pretty much because I don't need to dick around with EDN generation = )
20:04	lynaghk	bbloom: though the alpha is very minimal (send spec, get SVG back) so there's not a lot the client libs actually do
20:05	bbloom	lynaghk: do you have a tiny swing app with an SVG renderer? i'd imagine that would be the fastest way to iterate, rather than having to refresh the browser each time
20:06	lynaghk	Also, since everything is a map I'm thinking about just accepting JSON and running data-readers on any maps with a :_tag key. E.g., the EDN #my/record.thing {:a 1} is the same as {"_tag": "my/record.thing", "a" 1}
20:06	lynaghk	bbloom: nah, I have no swing experience. The plots use CSS, so a browser is pretty necessary. I could throw a livereload server in the client though.
20:06	lynaghk	so refreshes would be automatic.
20:06	bbloom	mmm automatic refreshes :-)
20:07	bbloom	the _tag json thing is a reasonable approach
20:07	bbloom	keywords and symbols are going to be a real issue for some EDN targets
20:07	lynaghk	okay, I'll consider that feature request #1 for the clj client and see if I can throw it in there later tonight = )
20:08	bbloom	the MRI implementation of ruby, for example, treats every single symbol as a memory leak :-/
20:08	bbloom	EDN is cool, but i'm not sure how well it will be received, so JSON support is probably wise
20:08	lynaghk	bbloom: yeah, that's what I'm thinking.
20:09	bbloom	but i'm much more interested in the graph-description -> svg step, so clojure-only and no json is enough for me to play with it
20:09	lynaghk	bbloom: anyway, I'm going for a run before the Pacific NW sun completely disappears. I'll email you Sunday with deets.
20:09	bbloom	lynaghk: cool, cya
20:09	lynaghk	bbloom: okay. I am giving a talk on this stuff at Oredev in Sweden next Friday if you're feeling up for a quick Euro trip =P
20:10	bbloom	haha thanks but no thanks
20:10	lynaghk	bbloom: but I will also post slides and writeup next week too.
20:35	AtKaaZ	how to make an empty sorted map ?
20:36	AtKaaZ	oh i see
20:41	AtKaaZ	is there something like file for lines or current function?
20:44	S11001001	AtKaaZ: no, but it might work to write a macro that asks the metadata on &form
20:44	S11001001	(defmacro here [] `'~(-> &form meta :line))
20:45	S11001001	AtKaaZ: depends on the details of operation ordering in Compiler.java though
20:47	S11001001	AtKaaZ: if you're writing a debugging macro, though, line and current function are pretty useless, as you can pick it up from exceptions anyway. The really useful thing is to write a macro that scribbles out details of &env (which has the current lexical env, e.g. let bindings & fun args
20:48	AtKaaZ	S11001001, that pretty much works like I wanted to, thanks, but I'm not sure what you mean with operation ordering...
20:50	S11001001	AtKaaZ: the times when the Clojure compiler sticks metadata on forms is pretty ad hoc. It should really mark forms iteratively, before and between each macroexpansion phase. It's not that simple, though
21:10	AtKaaZ	EPL or AGPL? why?
21:24	xeqi	AtKaaZ: for what?
21:24	AtKaaZ	own clojure projects
21:24	AtKaaZ	I mean, projects written in clojure
21:26	technomancy	you can't use clojure in GPL'd projects
21:26	xeqi	I choose EPL cause it reduces the license complexity of the ecosystem and for my users
21:26	xeqi	technomancy: ?
21:26	AtKaaZ	really?
21:26	ivan	technomancy: wait what seriously?
21:26	technomancy	the EPL's patent clause is ironically considered "additional restrictions" by the GPL
21:27	xeqi	ah
21:29	xeqi	luckily most java gpl projects I've seen use the "classpath exemption"
21:30	technomancy	the GPL with the classpath exception is effectively no different from the EPL afaict
21:31	technomancy	or the LGPL
21:31	AtKaaZ	"A number of developers have told us that they are prohibited from adding a dependency covered by the AGPL due to the viral nature of the license."
21:32	AtKaaZ	where I read, it seems EPL is better
21:32	xeqi	for some definition of "better"
21:32	technomancy	the EPL is not very good at doing what the AGPL does
21:32	AtKaaZ	yep xeqi
21:33	AtKaaZ	"With the EPL, Developers don’t have to worry that a single library will taint an entire server-side application and compel the release of source code." lol
21:36	AtKaaZ	http://vschart.com/compare/eclipse-public-license/vs/gnu-affero-general-public-license
21:37	seancorfield	as someone who's been thru a software license audit at a large corporation, i can say that licensing is important to such companies ;)
21:37	hughfdjackson	is there a canonical online book for clojure?
21:37	hughfdjackson	by which i mean.. de-facto, for begineers
21:37	hughfdjackson	*beginners -.-
21:38	hughfdjackson	not canonical at all.
21:38	technomancy	hughfdjackson: you mean free?
21:38	hughfdjackson	I don't mind paying, but instant gratification would be nice
21:38	hughfdjackson	:D
21:38	technomancy	hughfdjackson: hard to beat clojurebook.com
21:38	seancorfield	Clojure Programming would be my recommendation - yes, clojurebook.com
21:38	xeqi	+1 for clojurebook.com
21:39	hughfdjackson	thanks all :)
21:40	seancorfield	and welcome to the clojure universe hughfdjackson
21:42	AtKaaZ	technomancy, so if I want to release my project under AGPL, I can't have it written in clojure ? or I can't dist the uberjar ?
21:43	hughfdjackson	seancorfield: :D thanks. Here's hoping it'll be a refreshing change from battling js' addition to mutable objects
21:45	dnolen_	hughfdjackson: I think there's a lot to like for a JSer. Simple assocative model minus mutability.
21:48	hughfdjackson	dnolen_: basically what piqued my curiousity; it looks similar enough to be (perhaps) the js i wish js was
21:49	hughfdjackson	out of interest; are you working on that predicate dispatch library anywhere in public? I don't think i saw it on your github
21:50	dnolen_	hughfdjackson: ha, people always ask about that. I do work on it, but in a very slow way via core.logic/match
21:51	xeqi	AtKaaZ: ianal, but I believe you can't distribute the uberjar
21:51	AtKaaZ	xeqi, it makes some sense
21:52	xeqi	or with the agpl even use the combined work across a network
21:52	hughfdjackson	:D fair enough
21:53	AtKaaZ	xeqi, I suppose even if you were to release the project under dual license AGPL and EPL it would still not work?
21:54	Apage43	Then it would basically just be licensed under the EPL
21:54	AtKaaZ	like this project https://github.com/malcolmsparks/clj-logging-config
21:55	xeqi	dual licensing would be fine, everyone would just choose the epl
21:56	Apage43	unless they want to sue you or something, and avoid the patent retaliation language
21:56	AtKaaZ	i hate licenses :/
21:57	xeqi	and hope not to be in conflict with it and get copyright infringment :p
21:57	xeqi	AtKaaZ: yeah, thats why I just choose the EPL for clojure stuff
21:59	AtKaaZ	xeqi, yeah EPL should do, especially for whatever I program, since nobody will touch with a 10feet pole
21:59	Apage43	both AGPL and EPL have patent grant language (if you contribute patent encumbered code, you are granting a license to that patent), but the EPL has the added restriction that if you sue someone over patent related to an an EPL project you are not able to license that project under the EPL, which is why it is not GPL compatible.
22:01	AtKaaZ	this is a good read: http://briancarper.net/blog/579/keyword-arguments-ruby-clojure-common-lisp%5D
22:28	hughfdjackson	i'd have thought that read-string and pr-str would have been defined at about the same time
22:29	hughfdjackson	any rhyme or reason to this decision, or just one of those things that happens with code?
22:32	tomoj	well, pr-str's definition makes use of destructuring, which is defined after read-string
22:33	tomoj	but maybe read-string could have been stuck under there..
22:36	hughfdjackson	:D interesting
22:36	hughfdjackson	although i suppose that makes a lot of sense..
22:39	joegallo	if you want to make a pie from scratch, you must first create the universe, and all that.
22:39	hughfdjackson	mmm sagan pie
22:43	tomoj	every time I didn't put pomegranate on my path and I actually care, I just curse and don't put pomegranate on my path
22:43	tomoj
22:45	tomoj	(= (__ [{:foo #{1 2} :bar #{3}} {:foo #{4}} {:bar #{5 6} :baz #{7}}])
22:45	tomoj	[[:foo #{[1 4 nil] [2 4 nil]}] [:bar #{[3 nil 5] [3 nil 6]}]])
22:45	tomoj	d'oh
22:47	tomoj	also
22:47	AtKaaZ	can we def private atom? similar to defn-
22:47	tomoj	(= (__ {:a {:foo #{1 2} :bar #{3}} :b {:foo #{4}} :c {:bar #{5 6} :baz #{7}}})
22:47	tomoj	[[:foo #{{:a 1 :b 4} {:a 2 :b 4}}] [:bar #{{:a 3 :c 5} {:a 3 :c 6}}]])
22:47	tomoj
22:48	tomoj	(def ^:private foo (atom :foo))
22:48	AtKaaZ	oh it's before the symbol
22:48	AtKaaZ	thanks
22:48	AtKaaZ	works!
22:49	tomoj	there used to be a def- in contrib but it seems to have disappeared
22:50	tomoj	personally I don't use defn- anymore, ^:private is nice an clear
22:50	AtKaaZ	I agree
22:50	Raynes	Only time I use defn- is when working with code that uses it already.
22:50	Raynes	Like Clojure itself.
23:10	lpvb	has anyone done development for windows metro apps or windows phone?
23:10	lpvb	with clojure
23:32	brainproxy	Sgeo: glad you're doing alright
23:45	AtKaaZ	can we loop recur with first and rest inside a macro [firs & res] , trying to parse all by applying a check on first
23:47	AtKaaZ	the problem is in the loop let `(loop [xfirst# ~x allrest# ~all] the ~all is evaluate
23:50	AtKaaZ	if I were to not use the ` should I use eval to evaluate the form inside the macro?
23:54	Sgeo	bradfordw_, thank you
23:54	Sgeo	oops
23:54	Sgeo	brainproxy, thank you
23:59	brainproxy	btw, I've been hacking on the protocol-monads library; implemented a basic mechanism that options lets you check whether the return type of a monadic function matches the type of the monadic value
23:59	brainproxy	Sgeo: ^
23:59	brainproxy	*optionally