#clojure – 2012-10-26

2012-10-26

00:00	egghead	;)
00:00	Sgeo	Heard of it, didn't pay much attention
00:00	ynniv	Sgeo: that's what we all want...
00:01	egghead	Sgeo: they have optional types and mirror-based reflection like strongtalk, but it's a browser thing...
00:01	Sgeo	I've heaerd of them in the context of Newspeak
00:06	bfabry	sigh nope, lein trampoline repl still gives me a repl that doesn't reload when I tell itto
00:21	amalloy	i think ynniv missed my point, which was that especially if your codebase is mostly correct, any rate of false positives will lead you to get more false positives than true positives
00:55	uroborus_labs	Does anyone know of a good example of using a jquery plugin with clojurescript?
00:56	uroborus_labs	I seem to be having trouble mostly with the externs I think...
01:44	tomoj	standard java.util.concurrent.Future behavior seems to be that .cancel permamently breaks the Future
01:45	tomoj	shouldn't we get something better for clojure?
01:54	antares_	tomoj: what should .cancel do in your opinion?
01:58	uroborus_labs	Is there a dedicated clojurescript channel?
01:59	ivan	uroborus_labs: yes but nobody uses it
01:59	uroborus_labs	Yeah noticed that...
01:59	uroborus_labs	I have having a lot of trouble getting externs to work with it
01:59	ivan	nobody uses the channel, that is
02:01	ivan	uroborus_labs: did you add some :externs to your project.clj for lein-cljsbuild?
02:02	uroborus_labs	Yup
02:02	ivan	have you written working externs before?
02:02	uroborus_labs	I placed the file in resources/externs/myexternfile.js
02:02	uroborus_labs	Nope
02:02	uroborus_labs	Does cljsbuild auto scan for changes in project.clj?
02:03	ivan	I have no idea, I'm only familiar with the vanilla Closure Library toolchain
02:03	uroborus_labs	ahh ok
02:04	dnolen	uroborus_labs: have you seen http://lukevanderhart.com/2011/09/30/using-javascript-and-clojurescript.html?
02:04	dnolen	uroborus_labs: also you should look at how jayq does it.
02:05	uroborus_labs	Yeah I read that and scaned the jayq source code
02:05	uroborus_labs	Multiple times
02:05	uroborus_labs	lol
02:05	ivan	how do you know your extern isn't working? are you seeing renamed properties in the compiled code?
02:06	uroborus_labs	Yes
02:06	dnolen	uroborus_labs: there's also a thread about that on the Clojure ML right now
02:10	uroborus_labs	ivan: Thanks for the release-notes link. Doing some digging now about the auto extern loading
02:25	Momol	hi there
02:26	Momol	is anyone progamming in clojure uses a BSD system ?
02:58	uroborus_labs	Good lord, 3 hours of BS bug finding on why I was not doing externs correctly when the issue was somewhere in setting cljsbuild compilation from :advanced to :simple
03:00	uroborus_labs	I should say setting :optimizations
03:00	tomoj	you abandoned advanced?
03:00	uroborus_labs	Found this out through testing https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/tree/master/samples/hello-js
03:00	uroborus_labs	The examples in the readme failed to work unless advanced was set
03:00	uroborus_labs	tomoj: Any idea why that would be?
03:00	uroborus_labs	Or anyone else for that matter?
03:01	uroborus_labs	I should say, the example while following the readme failed when :optimizations was set to :advanced
03:02	uroborus_labs	Setting it to :simple both allowed the example to work and fixed the issue I have been stuck on for many many hours.
03:02	uroborus_labs	Is this a bug?
03:08	amalloy	Momol: everyone on osx, right?
03:09	Momol	amalloy: was thinking about openbsd and freebsd
03:09	amalloy	~anyone
03:09	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
03:13	Momol	I wanted to know if BSD are a good system for clojure developpment. Java is not popular on these systems so
03:13	Momol	for linux, you have libraries and all tools to develop quickly in clojure, but I have some doubt on *BSD. Maybe it is complex
03:14	tkoskine	OpenBSD ports/packages (on -current) have clojure and leiningen.
03:16	amalloy	the only thing you need is the jre, and a bash interpreter for leiningen
03:17	amalloy	famous last words maybe, but as far as i know that's all you need
03:23	Momol	amalloy: and jre isn't a prob on *BSD ?
03:26	tkoskine	Well, you could go and test it :). If there is a bug the jre maintainers on *BSDs would probably like to know about it.
03:26	tomoj	was the question about advanced and externs answered?
03:34	Sgeo	Hmm.
03:35	Sgeo	Can someone help me please?
03:35	shachaf	Sorry, Sgeo.
03:35	Sgeo	I need to know what the likely response would be if I asked, can someone help me please?
03:36	tomoj	anyone?
03:36	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
03:36	Sgeo	....I fail at humor
03:36	tomoj	no, I do
03:36	shachaf	Nope, it's definitely Sgeo.
03:36	tomoj	:)
03:36	Sgeo	I think shachaf is likely to poke fun at me in any event.
03:38	Sgeo	Which is good, because I like collecting fun, and every planck time of every planck length is an event.
04:02	tomoj	hmmm https://gist.github.com/32b0838b3d1f6322a10b
04:04	tomoj	&(next (reductions conj [] [1 2 3]))
04:05	lazybot	⇒ ([1] [1 2] [1 2 3])
04:05	tomoj	better way?
04:06	bosie	https://gist.github.com/3957533 why is my output empty?
04:07	tomoj	for?
04:07	clojurebot	for is not a loop
04:07	tomoj	lazy?
04:07	clojurebot	lazy is hiredman
04:07	tomoj	:(
04:07	tomoj	well
04:08	bosie	tomoj: not sure i understand you ;)
04:08	bosie	tomoj: because for is lazy, i wrapped it in take
04:08	tomoj	take is lazy too
04:08	bosie	dang
04:08	tomoj	(doseq [x [0 1 2 3] y [3 2 1 0] :while (< 0 x)] (println x y))
04:09	bosie	tomoj: right but then i have to change my for loop
04:09	bosie	tomoj: wouldn't doall do what i want?
04:10	Sgeo	tomoj, doc is a macro
04:11	Sgeo	bosie, doall works if you want the results from the for
04:11	Sgeo	So yes
04:11	bosie	Sgeo: cheers
04:12	tomoj	Sgeo: that's not the problem
04:13	tomoj	bosie: I doubt you want all the nil return values of println
04:13	tomoj	you can use dorun
04:13	amalloy	he probably doesn't want the printing effect of println either. just use for and return a bunch of vectors
04:13	bosie	tomoj: good point
04:14	Sgeo	bosie, is that your exact code, or is it a substitute for ... hmm
04:14	Sgeo	Ah. I wasn't sure
04:14	bosie	Sgeo: exact code. i was just playing with for in the repl
04:14	Sgeo	Ah
04:14	Sgeo	Hmm, usually attempting to show a lazy-seq at the REPL forces the lazy-seq to be fully realized
04:15	Sgeo	Although of course a take would allow for only the realization of ... you get the point
04:16	bosie	Sgeo: yes, i overlooked that take is lazy too
04:17	Sgeo	And the fun thing is, by using take at the REPL like that, you actually prevented the entire lazy sequence from the for from being realized
04:17	bosie	fun isn't the word i would have used ;)
04:19	bosie	thanks
04:21	josteink	is there any shell-like command like ls to list out the members of a namespace?
04:22	tomoj	shell-like? you mean you want to use it from a shell?
04:22	tomoj	&(keys (ns-publics (find-ns 'clojure.repl)))
04:22	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! ns-publics is bad!
04:23	josteink	tomoj: a repl often gives me the same feeling as a shell :)
04:23	josteink	lets see
04:25	josteink	cool
04:26	josteink	is there some function to call to get the name/symbol of the current repl namespace?
04:26	Sgeo	,ns
04:26	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
04:27	josteink	oh
04:27	josteink	I see
04:27	josteink	thanks
04:27	Sgeo	,(ns-name ns)
04:27	clojurebot	sandbox
04:28	Sgeo	,(special-symbol? 'ns)
04:28	clojurebot	false
04:30	tomoj	&(.name ns)
04:30	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! class clojure.lang.Namespace is bad!
04:30	tomoj	:(
04:30	tomoj	I think namespaces should be Named
04:30	tomoj	oh
04:30	tomoj	ns-name
04:31	Sgeo	It just calls .getName
04:31	Sgeo	,(.getName ns)
04:31	clojurebot	sandbox
04:31	josteink	now if I could find a way to quote that, I would actually have an automated ls command
04:31	Sgeo	,(ns-name 'sandbox)
04:31	clojurebot	sandbox
04:32	Sgeo	quote?
04:32	clojurebot	quote is is unsyntax quote and '
04:32	tomoj	:(
04:32	Sgeo	josteink, what do you mena?
04:32	Sgeo	mean
04:32	josteink	(ns-name ns) => user
04:32	josteink	I want 'suer
04:32	josteink	er
04:32	josteink	'user
04:33	Sgeo	Without ' is how symbols typically print
04:33	Sgeo	Hmm
04:33	josteink	so that I can pass it to (keys (ns-publics (find-ns NS)))
04:33	josteink	lets test
04:33	Sgeo	,(pr-str 'foo)
04:33	clojurebot	"foo"
04:33	Sgeo	,print-readably
04:33	clojurebot	true
04:33	josteink	my bad
04:33	amalloy	josteink: i don't think you understand quoting yet. the value is the symbol user (which doesn't have any special decoration on it); you put the ' in to ask the compiler not to try to evaluate it
04:33	Sgeo	Somehow I don't think printing the symbol foo as foo is "readable"
04:33	josteink	(keys (ns-publics (find-ns (ns-name ns)))) actually print out things correctly
04:34	josteink	Sgeo: heh
04:34	amalloy	Sgeo: of course it is (let [f 'foo] (= f (read-string (pr-str f))))
04:34	Sgeo	,(read-string "foo")
04:34	clojurebot	foo
04:35	Sgeo	huh.
04:35	Sgeo	I have a feeling I'm derping a bit
04:35	Sgeo	josteink, I have to know why you're doing ns-name then find-ns
04:35	Sgeo	,(doc find-ns)
04:35	clojurebot	"([sym]); Returns the namespace named by the symbol or nil if it doesn't exist."
04:36	Sgeo	They're approximately inverses
04:36	josteink	Sgeo: oh I see
04:37	josteink	agreed. this is much simpler
04:37	josteink	(defn ls [] (keys (ns-publics ns)))
04:40	Mr_Bond	hey josteink, where are you from?
04:40	Mr_Bond	Scandinavia?
04:40	josteink	norway
04:40	Mr_Bond	Same, kewl ;)
04:41	josteink	basically just thought it would be useful to have a "ls command" to investigate the namespaces Im in when running tutorials from git-repos
04:41	josteink	:)
04:42	josteink	you know, when the tutorial starts with "git clone", "lein repl" and "(load"
04:54	Mr_Bond	josteink: good idea! :) Clojure is fun, just started learning it my self.
04:55	Mr_Bond	Only thing that I find difficult, is pinpointing issues turning up in java backtrace
04:55	josteink	heh
04:55	tomoj	a hopefully soon-to-be-released library may help with that
04:58	Mr_Bond	tomoj: yeah, that would be very nice. Is there one on the roadmap?
04:58	Mr_Bond	I would still use clojure without one.
05:00	amalloy	tomoj's boundless optimism is an inspiration to us all
05:00	tomoj	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Clojure-Stack-Trace
05:04	josteink	anyone know who runs infoq or what their primary target/aim is?
05:05	josteink	ive seen it mentioned quite a few times for programming related content and functional programming in paritcular
05:09	Raynes	josteink: http://www.infoq.com/about
05:10	josteink	well that was easy :)
05:11	Raynes	I liked Google currents when my phone had the space to use it.
05:11	Raynes	That thing sucks up disk like a vacuum cleaner.
05:11	josteink	heh
05:12	josteink	I have 6GBs space or so on my galaxy nexus
05:12	josteink	that should be gooxd enough :)
05:12	Raynes	I have about 10MB of space on my Evo.
05:12	josteink	evo....
05:12	josteink	is that the carrier-mungled version of the galaxy s1?
05:13	Raynes	No idea.
05:13	Raynes	This is the old evo, anywyas.
05:13	Raynes	anyways*
05:13	josteink	ah. htc desire
05:13	Raynes	Not actually mine anymore. Giving it to my mother since I got an iPhone 5 today.
05:13	josteink	known for its infinitely insufficent storagecapacity
05:13	Raynes	No kidding.
05:16	kral	namaste
06:18	leoncamel	hey. As a newbie, I can def a variable, like this (def a 1). But, how can I undefine a ?
06:18	leoncamel	(def ^:dynamic a 1)
06:19	leoncamel	sorry, wrong window. :)
06:19	tomoj	(ns-unmap ns 'a)
06:19	leoncamel	tomoj: OK. cool. thansk.
06:19	shachaf	You can do that (it seems), but are you sure you want to?
06:20	tomoj	I understood "undefine" to mean "completely undo the effect of the def on the namespace"
06:20	tomoj	but I wonder about "make it appear as if the root is unbound"
06:21	leoncamel	What is the side-effect about (ns-unmap ns 'a) ?
06:22	tomoj	if you do that, evaluating 'a would cause "Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context"
06:22	tomoj	as if you had never evaluated '(def a 1)
06:23	leoncamel	I am newbie, just playing in my REPL. When I type "(def a 1)", a quick question just come to my mind: How can I undefine(or remove) symbol a from current environment.
06:24	tomoj	yes, that sounds like ns-unmap
06:24	tomoj	(doc ns-unmap)
06:24	clojurebot	"([ns sym]); Removes the mappings for the symbol from the namespace."
06:24	leoncamel	tomoj: OK. I got it.
06:25	tomoj	wow, datomic will not let you stick a long in a double field
06:31	bosie	tomoj: since you mentioned datomic, how is the "db is effectively local"?
06:31	tomoj	I like it so far
06:32	bosie	tomoj: in sql terms, it would query the entire dataset and process it locally? (e.g. apply a filter on it)
06:32	tomoj	not necessarily the entire index
06:32	tomoj	er, dataset
06:32	bosie	no but the entire 'table'
06:32	tomoj	well there are no tables
06:32	tomoj	but there are indices
06:32	bosie	right
06:33	tomoj	depending on how you write a query, it may not need to fetch much more than needed
06:33	bosie	tomoj: without processing on the server?
06:34	tomoj	if by "server" you mean the transactor, it only does writes
06:34	bosie	ok
06:36	tomoj	with the free version a peer has to talk to some processes the transactor starts to fetch data
06:36	bosie	wow
06:36	bosie	just saw the pricing for datomic pro
06:36	AtKaaZ	tomoj: what?
06:36	tomoj	what what
06:37	AtKaaZ	tomoj: on the free version the transactor fetches the data? ie. reads
06:37	tomoj	well, I don't understand the internals very well. the free transactor starts processes that listen on 3 ports. the peers have to talk to one or more of those to fetch data from the transactor-local storage
06:38	tomoj	I suspect one of them is an h2 sql db which the peer talks to, but I'm not sure
06:38	AtKaaZ	I don't know that many details, but I guess that could still mean that the transactor isn't used to read data ie. queries
06:39	tomoj	right, that seems likely
06:39	bosie	AtKaaZ: so if the transactor isn't reading the data, who is?
06:39	AtKaaZ	as I understand it the peers "talk" directly to the storage (so to speak)
06:40	tomoj	peers run queries, the transactor handles writes (and sometimes may run queries to service transactions..)
06:40	tomoj	in pro the transactor and peer machines don't have to communicate directly at all, they just both talk to postgres or dynamodb
06:40	AtKaaZ	tomoj: like the nested queries? those with d/entity
06:41	AtKaaZ	tomoj: I mean, when does transactor run queries?
06:41	tomoj	when a transaction function called in a transaction runs a query
06:41	bosie	AtKaaZ: http://www.datomic.com/uploads/3/5/9/7/3597326/6646785_orig.jpg
06:42	AtKaaZ	that makes sense
06:42	tomoj	like :db.fn/retractEntity probably runs a query to figure out what to retract?
06:43	tomoj	s/directly at all/directly at all (for queries)/
06:45	AtKaaZ	bosie: that Cache you see in peer app server, is reads/queries done by peer (directly getting them from storage/memcached) as I understand it
06:46	bosie	AtKaaZ: hm, then the arrows are wrong i guess
06:47	AtKaaZ	bosie: the two arrows point to cache as in: reads from storage/memcached into cache
06:47	bosie	AtKaaZ: sorry, i misread you
06:48	AtKaaZ	query gets its data from liveindex+cache, where liveindex would be updated when trasactor did a write
06:50	AtKaaZ	tomoj: I wonder if a :db.fn with like Thread.sleep can hold the transactor
06:51	tomoj	I'd think so
06:51	tomoj	no reason to sleep I can think of
06:51	tomoj	nothing's going to be different when you wake up
06:52	AtKaaZ	but I'm just thinking if some evil function would take too long to compute
06:52	tomoj	yeah, dunno
07:07	bairui	tomoj: s/foo/foo bar/ == s/foo/& bar/
07:08	tomoj	orly
07:08	bairui	in vim, anyway :)
07:08	tomoj	neat
07:09	tomoj	sed too
07:09	bairui	yep; sed: vim, I am your father.
07:11	bairui	well... grandfather? ancestor?
07:11	AtKaaZ	no no, leave it at that, it was funny;)
07:12	bairui	:) fair
07:26	Girvo	hey everyone
07:27	Girvo	q: is TDD viable in Lisp/Clojure? I'm working in a dialect called Pharen, quite inspired by clojure (compiles to PHP) and am used to TDD using classes. how does it work with just functions?
07:31	Girvo	any good resources for TDD in clojure?
07:35	Cheiron	Grivo: check speclj
07:38	Girvo	cheers @Cheiron
07:39	Cheiron	Grivo: and of course clojure.test , midje
07:41	JulioBarros	Hi. I'm coming back to a web app I have not touched in a long time. Had to resolve a couple of dependency issues but now am getting "Could not locate ring/util/serve__init.class"
07:41	JulioBarros	Any ideas on what could be causing it?
08:01	josteink	what's the difference between (ns somenamespace) and (in-ns 'somenamespace) ?
08:02	tomoj	(ns foo.bar) can do more, like (ns foo.bar (:require foo.baz)), and it also refers to clojure.core automatically
08:04	shachaf	Lenses are "pretty nifty".
08:04	shachaf	Do they have those in Clojure?
08:04	josteink	tomoj: ah ok. thanks
08:05	tomoj	I don't know
08:05	tomoj	are lenses anything like conal's semantic editor combinators?
08:05	tomoj	cgrand referenced lenses in a talk
08:05	josteink	google says "Lenses are the coalgebras for the costate comonad "
08:05	tomoj	but I only read the slides
08:06	josteink	lenses are coco
08:06	tomoj	and I think the conclusion was "that's too complicated for this task"
08:06	tomoj	http://vimeo.com/45695419
08:08	shachaf	tomoj: Yep, they're related.
08:08	shachaf	A simple version of a lens is a (getter,setter) pair.
08:08	tomoj	I still don't understand semantic editors, but I feel vaguely like I want them in clojure
08:09	shachaf	They can be composed, which is the nice part.
08:09	shachaf	The new "lens" library for Haskell way generalizes them, of course.
08:30	antoineB	hello, i would like get the "first" element of a concurrent list, and update the list to "rest"
08:30	antoineB	should i use a ref or atom?
08:32	antoineB	(first @my-list) (swap! my-list rest) is unsafe between the two sexp
08:32	josteink	so ... you are creating a queue? :)
08:33	antoineB	yes
08:33	antoineB	FIFO
08:34	_ulises	antoineB: why do you say those two sexps are unsafe?
08:35	antoineB	the thread can stop at end of first sexp, and another can start at fist sexp
08:36	antoineB	the two thread will peek the same "first" element
08:36	_ulises	antoineB: I didn't know you were talking threads :)
08:36	_ulises	sorry for the silly question
08:40	josteink	_ulises: when you are talking "concurrent" you are talking about threads ;)
08:40	_ulises	josteink: I'll blame it on the lack of caffeine
08:40	josteink	heh
08:40	josteink	personally I usually blame that I mostly ready the bottom 5 lines, not a 2 page backlog :P
08:41	_ulises	what backlog?
08:42	josteink	http://invalid.ed.ntnu.no/~jostein/uploads/irc_backlog.png
08:42	josteink	whatever has passed out of the screen
08:42	josteink	:)
08:43	_ulises	1) I can see myself 2) I meant "what backlog" in a "I don't read the backlog at all" kind of way
08:44	_ulises	;)
08:44	josteink	ah
08:44	josteink	heh
08:44	antoineB	josteink: you can ignore connection/deconnection of user in irssi
08:45	antoineB	to get it more clear
08:45	josteink	antoineB: considering it. Im no longer a channel-op in busy, troll-ridden channels
08:46	josteink	so to quickly be able to spot a bad host is no longer that important ;)
08:50	josteink	/ignore -channels #clojure,#scheme,#linux * JOINS PARTS QUITS NICKS"
08:51	josteink	there we go :)
08:51	AntelopeSalad	i have a question, sort of... i've been reading through the clojure programming book and recently watched a video tutorial from one of the authors
08:51	antoineB	nobody answer my question
08:51	AntelopeSalad	he built a url shortener using compojure and ring
08:51	AntelopeSalad	my question is, everyone claims clojure is great because everything is immutable
08:51	AntelopeSalad	but right off the bat he setup mutable variables
08:51	Mr_Bond	wow, your in both clojure and scheme. Isn't that a bit mongamist? :P
08:51	josteink	antoineB: Im not competent enough to answer it. I would have cheated and just faceded a java concurrentqueue :)
08:52	Mr_Bond	monogamist..
08:52	AntelopeSalad	what's the point in boasting about immutable data structures if you're just doing to use the function that makes things mutable?
08:52	AntelopeSalad	*doing = going
08:52	_ulises	antoineB: what operations are you trying to implement on the queue? peek or pop?
08:52	josteink	AntelopeSalad: well.. you probably need a sequence-number generatator
08:52	antoineB	pop
08:52	josteink	AntelopeSalad: that function will probably need some mutable data
08:53	antoineB	but a concurrent pop
08:53	AntelopeSalad	josteink: he uses an atom on some counter and also made a mutable map
08:53	_ulises	antoineB: so pop returns (first...) and updates to (rest...) right?
08:53	ambrosebs	Can someone please point me to a library that can call private Java methods/access Java fields?
08:53	josteink	AntelopeSalad: ah well. havent seen the video. cant tell if the guy does stupid things or not :)
08:53	antoineB	yes
08:53	cemerick	AntelopeSalad: Using an atom (or other reference type) does not make the data structures it holds mutable; rather, it provides a stable identity that does change over time.
08:53	ambrosebs	Is it in contrib?
08:53	antoineB	and i can't do the two in swap! or reset
08:53	AntelopeSalad	josteink: he's the co-author of the clojure programming book, he can't be that stupid
08:54	josteink	heh
08:54	_ulises	antoineB: why not? (please excuse me if it's a silly question)
08:54	cemerick	AntelopeSalad: We discuss this in chapter 4
08:54	AntelopeSalad	i didn't get to chapter 4 yet in the book, i did a lot of reading in the past 2 days and then wanted to watch a video tutorial
08:55	_ulises	antoineB: I think I get why you can't
08:55	_ulises	get it*
08:55	AntelopeSalad	cemerick: you were the video author right?
08:55	_ulises	not my day today obviously
08:55	AntelopeSalad	i vaguely remember the name in the slide
08:55	cemerick	AntelopeSalad: FWIW, yeah
08:56	AntelopeSalad	your book is really good btw
08:56	AntelopeSalad	i was just curious if a lot of web oriented clojure apps end up having a ton of mutable data (or things that act like they are mutable)
08:56	AntelopeSalad	is there no real downside to using atom? it seemed handy in that counter use case
08:57	cemerick	AntelopeSalad: Having a single identity is hardly a "ton", compared to typical imperative programming environments.
08:57	cemerick	In the URL shortener example, it's just a convenient stand-in for an external database.
08:57	antoineB	_ulises: swap! and reset update the atom with the return of the function
08:58	_ulises	antoineB: yeah, I realised that after I asked you the question :(
08:58	AntelopeSalad	ah, i see. so normally you would be getting a count of entries from a db
08:59	tomoj	is it possible that .take on a LinkedBlockingQueue never returns, while the queue fills up with items?
08:59	AntelopeSalad	cemerick: btw, do you have any other video tutorials floating around? i didn't see anymore in your channel
09:00	tomoj	hmm
09:00	tomoj	I switched to openjdk and the problem seemed to go away
09:00	tomoj	not sure if that was voodoo
09:01	cemerick	AntelopeSalad: I've done a couple, but they're not on youtube.
09:01	cemerick	Nothing as comprehensive, though.
09:02	AntelopeSalad	ok
09:05	AntelopeSalad	cemerick: can you post the links to them? even if they touch on some subjects in the book it wouldn't hurt to watch them
09:07	Kototama	Hi, I know about checkouts but is there a way with leiningen to run lein clean / lein deps / lein install for 4 differents projects at once?
09:08	TimMc	Kototama: With shell scripting, yes.
09:08	cemerick	AntelopeSalad: old, old, old: http://cemerick.com/2010/11/02/continuous-deployment-of-clojure-web-applications/ http://cemerick.com/2010/03/25/why-using-maven-for-clojure-builds-is-a-no-brainer/
09:08	cemerick	The maven one in particular is quite irrelevant at this point.
09:09	AntelopeSalad	ah, yeah you explained that lein is its successor
09:09	TimMc	Kototama: for p in repos/foo repos/bar repos/etc ; do (cd -- "$p"; lein clean deps install); done
09:09	antoineB	_ulises: i used ref
09:10	_ulises	antoineB: I was going to say that that's what you probably want if you want blocking reads, etc.
09:10	TimMc	And once I get to work, I'll be able to paste a little modification that makes that for loop stop if any of those repos fails to build.
09:10	_ulises	antoineB: care to share the code? :)
09:11	antoineB	is not realy usefull because is not a generic queue
09:11	antoineB	https://gist.github.com/3958679
09:11	Kototama	TimMc: I need something platform independent
09:11	Kototama	I'm trying to get rid of our shell scripts
09:14	TimMc	Write it in Python then.
09:15	TimMc	Python is great for cross-platform automation.
09:15	Kototama	i don't want windows developpers to have to install python to develop on a clojure project
09:15	TimMc	Do they have Cygwin?
09:15	Kototama	nope
09:15	antoineB	jscript ?
09:16	Kototama	yeah jscript lol but then I need to main two different set of build script
09:16	Kototama	maintain
09:16	TimMc	What's wrong with installing Python?
09:16	antoineB	never touch jscript
09:16	antoineB	TimMc: "installing" maybe
09:17	TimMc	Maven
09:17	antoineB	Kototama: build a new clojure dsl, one for jscript and one for bash ? :)
09:17	Kototama	"please install java, leiningen, git" and also python but just two runs two shell commands thanks
09:18	Kototama	i think i'll create a lein plugin that go up one directory and launch the same commadn in the other if it's possible :p
09:18	TimMc	Kototama: I think there's a lein plugin to develop multiple projects in the same tree.
09:19	Kototama	but which one? I found https://github.com/maravillas/lein-multi but it's not what i'm looking for, nor checkouts directory solve the problem
09:19	TimMc	lein itself uses something...
09:19	Kototama	i'm not even sure they work on windows, can you create a symlink on windows?
09:19	TimMc	Not really.
09:20	TimMc	NTFS has some weird shit that I don't know about, though...
09:20	TimMc	Maybe just have a "parent" (outer) project with a lein hook that distributes the commands in order to the various "subprojects"...
09:22	TimMc	Kototama: If you can write the same thing in Windows batch scripting, just have two scripts.
09:22	TimMc	That's not an uncommon or unreasonable thing to do.
09:22	Kototama	how do hooks work?
09:23	TimMc	I don't recall, but I've used one... let me check.
09:23	josteink	Kototama: you can create symlinks on windows with NTFS. Its just that the OS provides no tools for it ;)
09:23	Kototama	or I use the lein exec plugin and write a clojure script that do the 4 lein commands :D
09:24	josteink	the filesystem itself supports it fully
09:24	josteink	well screw me sideways
09:24	josteink	http://pastebin.com/N0XDinvC
09:24	josteink	there you go :)
09:25	Kototama	ahhhhh maybe https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-sub
09:25	TimMc	josteink: Cool!
09:25	Kototama	josteink: not so bad :-)
09:25	Kototama	it does not solve the install problem though
09:26	TimMc	It doesn't?
09:26	Kototama	no checkouts is more to augment the classpath than anything else
09:26	TimMc	Oh, you mean checkouts, not lein-sub.
09:26	Kototama	yep
09:27	Kototama	i'm trying lein sub write know... we will see...
09:31	Kototama	lol the cljsbuild hook get applied to all projects ;-(
09:34	Kototama	but otherwise it seems to work, this is really great
09:37	clgv	tools.logging: does not really give me correct line numbers within a namespace although I use the convenience macros. whats wrong there?
09:39	Kototama	with profiles I can discriminate with project needs to be build a war or not, everything fine.
10:40	tomoj	crazy to find me asking a question hours ago on the second page of related google results
10:41	clgv	tomoj: it's a pretty unique question then?
10:42	tomoj	not really
10:42	tomoj	"LinkedBlockingQueue clojure seq" oslt
10:42	clgv	what do you want to know?
10:43	clgv	happens that I currently have the LinkedBlockingQueue javadoc open ;)
10:44	tomoj	I just want a seq from it
10:45	clgv	with or without blocking?
10:45	tomoj	blocking, of course
10:45	clgv	just do (repeatedly #(.take lbq))
10:46	ejackson	tomoj: I've used cgrand's code for this to great effect: http://clj-me.cgrand.net/2010/04/02/pipe-dreams-are-not-necessarily-made-of-promises/
10:46	tomoj	yeah I saw that, and based this on it
10:46	clgv	ejackson: tomoj: he added a close-fn that put's an EOF in it.
10:46	tomoj	https://gist.github.com/d5207c5a5074af29b4ac
10:47	tomoj	rich is producing, not me, so don't need that
10:47	ejackson	rightio
10:48	clgv	tomoj: ok then you could just use (repeatedly #(.take lbq))
10:48	clgv	tomoj: that gist is only more verbose
10:48	tomoj	ah!
10:48	tomoj	I felt there must have been a better way
11:25	ToBeReplaced	first time using lein midje; when i do lein midje, i show my failures, then Subprocess failed before I get to any lein test summary.... lein test has no issues... anyone have any guesses where to look? Leiningen 2.0.0-preview10 on Java 1.7.0_09-icedtea OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM
11:25	leoncamel	what is proper way to execute a external command? I can not find clojure.contrib.duck-streams now.
11:27	clgv	~contrib
11:27	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
11:28	clgv	"clojure.java.shell" or "conch" will help you
11:29	leoncamel	clgv: OK. thanks.
11:30	AtKaaZ	anyone using emacs 24.2 can paste their init.el ?
11:31	antares_	I have an entire repo for emacs.d :)
11:31	AtKaaZ	lol that's a lot of lines
11:32	AtKaaZ	cool I'll check that
11:32	antares_	AtKaaZ: http://github.com/michaelklishin/emacsd, although it is by no means an example of an impressive Emacs setup
11:32	leoncamel	AtKaaZ: what are you looking for? configurations for nREPL+emacs?
11:33	AtKaaZ	leoncamel: yes exactly (on windows)
11:35	hyPiRion	AtKaaZ: https://github.com/bodil/emacs.d is a good one to look at.
11:36	AtKaaZ	thanks I'll check, antares_'s seems to be using .emacs I was expecting init.el
11:36	hyPiRion	Though it's not for windows.
11:37	AtKaaZ	understood
11:39	Bodil	hyPiRion: Thanks, I guess. :)
11:39	leoncamel	AtKaaZ: My emacs.d become complex and complex, I don't know if it helps. But, I would like recommend this repo : https://github.com/purcell/emacs.d
11:40	nDuff	AtKaaZ: See https://github.com/overtone/emacs-live -- there are videos showing the features and such.
11:41	S11001001	AtKaaZ: my emacs config is top secret, can't share without risking national security
11:41	AtKaaZ	:))
11:41	leoncamel	nDuff: yes. It so dam cool... :) I LOVE that.
11:45	AtKaaZ	awesome video, I wonder if the text really glows like that
11:46	adu	which video?
11:46	AtKaaZ	http://vimeo.com/22798433
11:47	adu	doubtful
11:47	AtKaaZ	yep I just saw the end:)
11:48	ambrosebs	Just released Typed Clojure 0.1, please try it out https://github.com/frenchy64/typed-clojure
11:48	adu	OMG
11:48	adu	typed clojure!
11:48	nDuff	sweet!
11:48	adu	is it anything like typed racket?
11:49	ambrosebs	it's wannabe typed racket, yes :)
11:49	ambrosebs	nDuff: thanks!
11:49	nDuff	adu: If you're curious, you should read the paper ambrosebs published.
11:49	adu	ambrosebs: I think something just happened in my pants
11:49	adu	which paper?
11:49	ambrosebs	should be in the readme
11:49	clgv	ambrosebs: does it work without a modified clojure?
11:50	adu	"A Practical Optional Type System for Clojure"?
11:50	ambrosebs	clgv: It only works on 1.5.0-beta1
11:50	ambrosebs	clgv: probably
11:50	ambrosebs	adu: yep
11:51	clgv	ambrosebs: why i "tc-ignore" not metadata?
11:51	adu	ambrosebs: did I show you my typed lisp thing?
11:51	adu	http://andydude.github.com/droscheme/cmd/gos.html
11:52	adu	it's just an S-expr representation of Go code
11:53	ambrosebs	clgv: the library "analyze" generates an AST from the Clojure compiler. Sometimes metadata doesn't make it through, so as a rule I don't do any metadata where you might expect.
11:54	ambrosebs	clgv: It was the quickest thing that works.
11:55	clgv	ambrosebs: ah ok. then that might be a future feature ;)
11:56	ambrosebs	clgv: I don't see how (tc-ignore 1) would work with metadata though.
11:57	clgv	ambrosebs: would `1` be type checked?
11:57	ambrosebs	I mean, 1 isn't IMeta
11:57	clgv	I know. but would it make sense to wrap it in tc-ignore?
11:58	ambrosebs	clgv: probably not. Until we have a new compiler, I'm happy with tc-ignore.
11:59	ambrosebs	which may be never :)
11:59	adu	new compiler?
11:59	clgv	ambrosebs: despite from tc-ignore you could have the "typed clojure" annotations in a different namespace, right?
11:59	ambrosebs	adu: ie. CLJS
12:00	adu	I thought CLJS was as good as CLJ
12:00	ambrosebs	clgv: sure
12:00	ambrosebs	clgv: these are the sorts of issues I haven't fleshed out yet though.
12:00	clgv	ambrosebs: that was why tc-ignore disturbed me ;)
12:00	ambrosebs	clgv: yes, it's a horrible hack of course!
12:01	ambrosebs	adu: CLJS compiler is much nicer to work with.
12:01	adu	hmm, maybe I should check it out, I've only used CLJ
12:02	ambrosebs	adu: check out the compiler namespace, it's just multimethods and maps.
12:02	ambrosebs	quite remarkable.
12:04	ambrosebs	I would be grateful if anyone's tried Typed Clojure 0.1 to let me know that it works.
12:05	ambrosebs	I've been the only user for so long, it's a little nerve wrecking releasing it :)
12:05	ambrosebs	I probably screwed up something.
12:11	adu	I'd like to try it
12:12	ambrosebs	adu: Glad to help if you run into any trouble.
12:17	adu	ambrosebs: "Could not find artifact typed:typed:jar:0.1 in central (http://repo1.maven.org/maven2)"
12:17	adu	o wait n/m "Retrieving typed/typed/0.1/typed-0.1.jar (71k)from https://clojars.org/repo/"
12:18	ambrosebs	I actually just pushed it 1m ago LOL
12:18	adu	sweet
12:18	ambrosebs	forgot to release the release
12:19	wunki	is there a thumbnail library in Clojure?
12:20	adu	ambrosebs: is there a "defn>"?
12:21	ambrosebs	adu: nope, I wouldn't encourage one either.
12:21	nDuff	wunki: If you don't find anything on Clojuresphere, the typical thing is to pick a Java library that looks sane.
12:21	technomancy	ambrosebs: would it be possible to specify annotations as metadata on vars?
12:21	ambrosebs	adu: just use (ann var type)
12:22	adu	ambrosebs: is this important: "CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: COLUMN_AFTER in class clojure.lang.Compiler, compiling:(analyze/core.clj:825)"?
12:22	ambrosebs	technomancy: no reason why not.
12:22	wunki	nDuff: doesn't seem to be. Adding java to the google query :)
12:22	ambrosebs	adu: ah.
12:22	technomancy	ambrosebs: seems like the natural place for it provided you're not annotating someone else's code
12:23	adu	ambrosebs: I got that after "(use 'typed.core)" in "lein repl"
12:23	ambrosebs	adu: clojure-version ?
12:23	nDuff	wunki: ...by the way, I _do_ recommend clojuresphere (http://www.clojuresphere.com/) as a good place to look for Clojure libraries.
12:23	adu	ambrosebs: 1.4.0
12:23	nDuff	wunki: ...notably, searching there, it _does_ find a thumbnail library.
12:24	ambrosebs	adu: ok, it only supports 1.5.0-beta1
12:24	adu	oic
12:24	adu	let me change the project
12:24	ambrosebs	adu: can you run "lein deps :tree" and paste it somewhere?
12:24	ambrosebs	or just let me know where 1.4.0 is coming from
12:24	TimMc	adu: http://refheap.com
12:25	ambrosebs	technomancy: is there a particular reason why you'd prefer metadata? I don't personally see the difference.
12:26	adu	https://www.refheap.com/paste/6161
12:26	technomancy	ambrosebs: just that clojure already has a mechanism for annotating vars; seems odd to make up your own when one already exists
12:26	gensymv	hello, clojure newbiew here: what is the use case for "lein repl" starting a server?
12:26	gensymv	*newbie
12:26	jkkramer	wunki: I use Scalr in a clojure project. I have a ~100 line clj file to make working with loading/saving images a bit easier that I could open source
12:26	ambrosebs	technomancy: fair enough. Blindly copied Typed Racket there.
12:26	gensymv	*starting to listen
12:26	adu	gensymv: I just used lein repl to test stuff
12:26	ambrosebs	adu: what's your project.clj
12:27	wunki	nDuff: I didn't know clojuresphere was a site, I though it was a "saying". Thanks
12:27	gensymv	adu, my question has nothing to do with the code you posted^^
12:27	gensymv	i am just curious.
12:27	technomancy	gensymv: leiningen used to have issues with stdin from within your project, so it had to set up a socket for repl communication
12:27	technomancy	gensymv: turns out it's a useful property to have for remote debugging anyway
12:28	gensymv	so if i don't really know what i am doing (which is the case), i might as well continue using clojure with rlwrap.
12:28	gensymv	technomancy,thanks.
12:28	technomancy	rlwrap is pretty crappy actually
12:28	adu	ambrosebs: ok, now that I have 1.5.0-beta1 in the project, leing repl/use now says "WARNING: defrecord already refers to: #'clojure.core/defrecord in namespace: user, being replaced by: #'typed.core/defrecord"
12:29	gensymv	technomancy, why do you say that?
12:29	technomancy	gensymv: history support isn't as good; no tab completion
12:29	ambrosebs	adu: just require it, don't use
12:29	ambrosebs	(require 'typed.core)
12:29	wunki	jkkramer: you don't have to do it for me. I'm only using for a side project. If however you wanted to do it anyway. Let me know
12:30	wunki	jkkramer: pm me if so, gotta go eat
12:30	adu	I thought it didn't matter
12:30	jkkramer	wunki: it's short and relative self contained. i'll gist it...
12:30	gensymv	technomancy, as far as i see leiningen repl doesn't have tab completion either
12:30	ambrosebs	adu: could you possibly start a new file?
12:30	technomancy	gensymv: lein1 or lein2?
12:30	adu	ambrosebs: ok
12:30	jkkramer	wunki: https://gist.github.com/3959731
12:30	gensymv	technomancy, 1.7
12:31	technomancy	gensymv: yeah, that's just using rlwrap. lein2 has a much better repl.
12:31	ambrosebs	adu: (:require [typed.core :refer [check-ns ann]])
12:32	TimMc	technomancy: At least it's not jline.
12:33	adu	I tried "(require [typed.core :refer [check-ns ann]])" in the repl and got a ClassNotFoundException
12:33	technomancy	TimMc: jline1 is the crappy one; jline2 is sweet
12:33	TimMc	adu: Put a ' before [typed...
12:33	TimMc	technomancy: Oh, interesting.
12:34	adu	YEY
12:34	adu	that worke
12:34	TimMc	adu: require is a fn, not a macro, for better or worse -- so it needs to have the libspec quoted.
12:34	ambrosebs	adu: typed.core/cf checks a form, you might want that to experiment with
12:34	ambrosebs	adu: try (cf 1)
12:35	adu	ambrosebs: I get "[(quote 1) {:then tt, :else ff} empty-object]"
12:35	ambrosebs	great
12:35	adu	I have no idea what that means
12:36	ambrosebs	adu: it's a bit complex. (quote 1) is the singleton type containing just one.
12:36	ambrosebs	adu: the rest is extra stuff.
12:37	ambrosebs	try (ann-form (fn [a] a) (All [x] [x -> x]))
12:37	ambrosebs	and import ann-form
12:37	ambrosebs	it should all be working.
12:38	ambrosebs	technomancy: what kinds of better inference were you expecting from Typed Clojure?
12:38	adu	ambrosebs: "(typed.core/cf (Math/sqrt 4))" gives me "AssertionError Assert failed: (class? cls) typed.core/Class->symbol (core.clj:2275)"
12:38	ambrosebs	adu: that's not right :)
12:39	adu	do I win a beta testing chocolate cookie?
12:40	technomancy	ambrosebs: well, trivially in the collatz example, it should be possible to infer the return value, right?
12:40	ambrosebs	adu: the first bug report :)
12:41	ambrosebs	technomancy: yes, IMO that's only handy for anonymous functions. I have a convoluted syntax that infers the return: (fn> [[a :- Number]] a)
12:41	TimMc	technomancy: COuld not reproduce, I was able to get a value other than 1.
12:42	technomancy	ambrosebs: sure; cool
12:43	TimMc	(Never mind, my joke fails because his Collatz function doesn't actually check for loops, per se.)
12:44	technomancy	is it a goal at all to support checking code that's unannotated based on guesses coming from inference?
12:45	ambrosebs	technomancy: that's for a separate tool.
12:45	technomancy	ok, I see
12:47	ambrosebs	technomancy: a tool between those is one that gives a pretty good guess of the types, and allows the user to double check them before being used like normal.
12:48	edward_123	anyone used compojure knows how to redirect to a custom 404 page when 404 happens? right now i only have route/not-found "page not found."
12:48	technomancy	ambrosebs: I expect there's also room for a tool that can avoid reflection that way too
12:49	ambrosebs	technomancy: yes, just need to figure out how to integrate it into the Compiler.
12:49	dnolen	ambrosebs: so you see typed clojure as kind of a final pass after an more robust inferencer pass?
12:51	ambrosebs	dnolen: I meant porting a large amount of untyped code could be pretty annoying, so a decent inferencer would help there. Typed Clojure is fundamentally bidirectional checking only.
12:52	ambrosebs	adu: fixed it, any more ;)
12:54	adu	ambrosebs: nice
12:54	egghead	edward_123: just put the html instead of "page not found."
12:58	dnolen	ambrosebs: ejackson mentioned S Peyton-Jones was excited about Typed Clojure at FPDays ;)
12:58	ejackson	indeed !
12:59	ejackson	I pointed him at your dissertation - hot off the presses.
12:59	edward_123	@egghead, oh it can also be dynamic content if I can corresponding function as long as the function returns string right?
12:59	egghead	ya edward_123
13:01	edward_123	Thanks!
13:08	dnolen	ejackson: so did you get any feedback from folks that were familiar w/ constraint solvers?
13:08	ambrosebs	dnolen: ejackson: no way!
13:09	ejackson	ambrosebs: yes way. He is working at the moment on optional static typing in Haskell too.
13:10	dnolen	word on the street is that all the cool kids are doing it
13:10	ejackson	The idea is that it turns all static errors into warnings at compile time, and throws at runtime instead
13:10	technomancy	sounds like a hard sell to haskellers
13:10	dnolen	technomancy: it's already in GHC
13:10	ejackson	stuff is available and more coming.
13:11	ejackson	apparently their main use case is refactoring
13:11	technomancy	sure, haskellers just like to talk about how runtime errors are a thing of the past
13:12	ambrosebs	Well, we're about to find out if the monads in my dissertation are actually well typed then ;)
13:12	ejackson	dnolen: feedack - not really. Did have a prologer cut off one of my answers to say how much more expressive core.logic was than prolog in solving the soduku puzzle.
13:12	ejackson	i certainly wasn't about to disagree.
13:13	dnolen	ejackson: heh
13:13	dnolen	technomancy: just like the SMLers & OCamlers before them.
13:14	technomancy	dnolen: ocaml struck me as a much more chill community
13:14	technomancy	"Oh, you absolutely need speed? It's cool if you write mutable code then. We won't judge you."
13:15	technomancy	much less dogmatic
13:15	dnolen	technomancy: maturity of community perhaps?
13:15	technomancy	couldn't say for sure. maybe being slightly more industry-leaning than haskell.
13:16	Iceland_jack	Haskell is too divided between research and usability I feel
13:19	egghead	Iceland_jack: why do you say that? haskell is certainly useable, just not necessarily accessible :)
13:19	Iceland_jack	I probably wasn't specific enough
13:20	Iceland_jack	It is useable but sometimes you need stability of ideas as much as you need stability of libraries or code
13:22	Iceland_jack	With Haskell there are always new things--arrows, lenses--that mix with people trying to solve problems
13:22	Iceland_jack	I do love Haskell though
13:23	gtrak`	I find myself writing this a lot in async code, is there a better way? (let [call #(if % (%))] ... (call some-param))
13:24	djcoin	I'm far from being an expert, but my trouble with haskell is functional overengineering maybe and laziness. Ocaml is more pragmatic but for ~20 years it seems it did not evolved as much as it should have (and by the way, not used at much as it should I guess - when I see how Go is getting traction .. it seems to me as a weaker OCaml). Again, i'm far from an expert.
13:25	Iceland_jack	I think Haskell is definitely on the right track
13:25	technomancy	yeah, it's a shame Go has so much momentum while OCaml comparatively languishes
13:25	Iceland_jack	OCaml is an excellent language
13:25	djcoin	Yeah, it is a total incomprehension for me. You can take OCaml + Lwt, and you get basically Go
13:26	technomancy	it's the curly braces
13:26	djcoin	:(
13:26	gtrak	curly braces make it go fast
13:27	dnolen	technomancy: I don't think I'll ever use Go myself but I understand the appeal for the mainstream devs.
13:28	djcoin	dnolen: maybe their were told that it is web scale yet imperative :)
13:29	djcoin	they *
13:29	technomancy	maybe it's like the groovy of systems-level code
13:29	technomancy	the appeal comes from addressing the obvious pain points without requiring you to change the way you think
13:30	nDuff	${DEITY} that thing is awful
13:30	technomancy	yeah that's probably not quite fair to go
13:30	nDuff	bloody near impossible to tell what a given piece of code does without ridiculous amounts of context
13:31	technomancy	it's not bad (apart from ignoring interactive development, which is unforgivable) it's just unambitious
13:34	ToBeReplaced	okay i can't get midje to work at all >> has anyone else had any issues? i'm reckoning that i just don't know what i'm doing with java
13:35	ToBeReplaced	if i do lein new foo; cd foo; lein midje; i get ran 1 test, yadda yadda, then finally "Subprocess failed"
13:37	egghead	can anyone speak to clj-metrics vs something like reimann ?
13:45	ambrosebs	adu: Gos is pretty cool!
13:45	ambrosebs	adu: any macros?
13:46	ambrosebs	adu: or is that more droscheme's thing?
13:53	adu	ambrosebs: right
13:53	adu	ambrosebs: droscheme is the macros, and gos is just a transpiler from S-expr => Go
13:54	ambrosebs	adu: and the types are just directly from Go?
13:54	adu	yes
13:54	ambrosebs	cool
13:54	adu	I've been meaning to do a release of droscheme
13:54	adu	but I've been so busy with my new job
13:55	adu	iirc, the andrew-working branch (https://github.com/andydude/droscheme/tree/andrew-working) is half-way between master branch and what I have now
13:57	ambrosebs	I should go to bed :) Hearing SPJ knows about Typed Clojure kept me up another hour :P
13:57	adu	nice
13:58	ambrosebs	thanks a bunch for being the first known user of Typed Clojure xD
13:58	ambrosebs	seriously.
13:58	adu	np :)
13:58	ambrosebs	cya
13:58	adu	later
14:07	mac_	Hello folks! Anybody up for a short code review (80-odd lines)? I'm getting performance that's surprising me with its slowness, and I thought somebody might see where I've gone wrong.
14:07	emezeske	~anyone
14:07	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
14:07	emezeske	mac_: Nothing wrong with pasting the code in question
14:08	emezeske	mac_: But people might not want to commit to a code review before seeing it :)
14:08	mac_	oh, of course.
14:09	grzm	Just getting started with clojurescript and following along Mark McGranaghan's node.js clojurescript demo at http://mmcgrana.github.com/2011/09/clojurescript-nodejs.html and am getting the following error:
14:09	grzm	.ObjMap.fromObject(["Content-Type"], {"Content-Type":"text/plain"}).strobj());
14:09	grzm	^
14:09	grzm	TypeError: Property 'strobj' of object {"Content-Type" "text/plain"} is not a function
14:09	mac_	It's a backtracking sudoku: https://gist.github.com/3960341
14:09	dnolen	grzm: it's probably unwise to follow that particular tutorial it's quite old.
14:09	grzm	This is when running the first http example.
14:09	grzm	dnolen: that's what I was gathering.
14:09	dnolen	grzm: it's relies on private implementation details
14:10	grzm	dnolen: and that too, from here : http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9193705/where-in-clojurescript-is-the-strobj-function-defined
14:10	grzm	dnolen: any pointers on more modern places to start? In particular, I'm interested in using cljs with node.js
14:12	emezeske	mac_: Probably not performance-related, but do you know about get-in and assoc-in?
14:12	grzm	dnolen: btw, I'm incredibly impressed with the level of activity you're able to maintain on the lists, Stackoverflow, and I see it extends to IRC as well :)
14:12	dnolen	grzm: wild west that. node.js support is still early days.
14:12	mac_	emezeske: I see I've reinvented the wheel.
14:12	dnolen	grzm: ohpauleez is forging some ground there.
14:12	mac_	Thought I might have.
14:13	emezeske	mac_: Only a little bit :)
14:13	grzm	dnolen: cheers. I'll take a look
14:13	mac_	That implementation is slower than a Python implementation that's using (broadly) the same algorithm; Python gets mutable arrays, of course, so there's likely a meaningful win there, but I'm still surprised.
14:14	mac_	(Python wins when I have it do many boards, in an attempt to amortize startup costs)
14:14	ohpauleez	grzm: Let me scroll back a second and catch up
14:15	ohpauleez	grzm: I'm your man!
14:15	__zfn__	Hi all/
14:15	__zfn__	I use lein with clojure 1.2.1
14:15	grzm	ohpauleez: good to hear :)
14:16	__zfn__	How to update clojure version?
14:16	dnolen	mac_: you are constructing many transient values tho right? lots of conversions to set, and calls to set/difference. that's not the case in the Python code if I recall
14:16	technomancy	three remaining blockers on lein2 rc; woo
14:16	ohpauleez	I have a full app - disk-io, lots of Clojure/edn data, core.logic, interaction with unix utilities - all on node.js
14:16	mac_	dnolen: I'm constructing many transient sets in my python version, as well.
14:16	ohpauleez	as a scripting app
14:16	technomancy	anyone want to fix https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/805?
14:16	dnolen	mac_: by converting to python sets?
14:16	dnolen	mac_: I'm assuming you're basing this on Norvig's version?
14:17	mac_	dnolen: No, from-scratch by me.
14:17	ohpauleez	technomancy: exciting!
14:17	ohpauleez	grzm: Are you stuck with anything in particular or just looking for starting points?
14:17	grzm	ohpauleez: currently googling you and node.js to see what you've got out there, but currently only see links to irc logs. do you have any node.cljs articles/projects out there I might take a gander at?
14:17	mac_	dnolen: My python version does the same build-three-sets thing that my clj version does; mutability is likely adventageous there too, though.
14:18	dnolen	mac_: are you running the JVM w/ -server?
14:18	mac_	dnolen: dunno; lemme see.
14:18	grzm	ohpauleez: just getting started. Haven't done extensive js work, much less node.js, and thought using clojurescript would make it a little less painful
14:18	dnolen	mac_: if you're using lein you probably are
14:18	mac_	dnolen: using the clj wrapper script from homebrew.
14:18	ohpauleez	grzm: I was going to hold off pushing mine to Github, but let me add that remote and I'll link you
14:18	mac_	it's not passing -server.
14:18	mac_	Lemme try.
14:18	grzm	ohpauleez: so I was going to work through Mark's demo
14:19	grzm	ohpauleez: cheers
14:19	ohpauleez	grzm: That's a good place to start - the latest Google Closure Lib has promises in it (they're called Resultes)
14:19	ohpauleez	You need to use them to escape callback hell and program with values
14:19	technomancy	never mind; I think that issue I linked to is already fixed
14:19	ohpauleez	I'm going to highlight that in my Conj talk this year
14:20	mac_	dnolen: can't tell if that made a difference.
14:20	mac_	My "benchmarking" (using the term loosely) isn't good enough to tel.
14:20	dnolen	mac_: you generally need multiple runs for the JVM to warm up, how long does it take to solve your board?
14:21	emezeske	mac_: This is probably micro-micro optimization, but it seems like representing the board using numbers instead of strings would be appropriate
14:21	dnolen	mac_: also if you're doing this at the terminal w/ clj then you're messing JVM+Clojure+compile your script startup time
14:21	dnolen	you're measuring I mean
14:21	mac_	dnolen: yeah, I know I'm paying all the startup time every time.
14:22	mac_	But if I have it solve say 20 boards, python still wins.
14:22	grzm	ohpauleez: I take it https://github.com/ohpauleez/ttt is what I'm looking forward to?
14:22	ohpauleez	yes
14:22	ohpauleez	:)
14:22	dnolen	mac_: how long does it take?
14:22	mac_	oh, hang on.
14:23	mac_	at ~20 boards, clj takes ~13 seconds wall time, and python takes ~20.
14:23	mac_	So it looks like I'm catching up after all.
14:23	mac_	(Although that second thread means my CPU time is higher)
14:23	mac_	Clearly, I need to examine this more closely.
14:23	mac_	(I take it from the other quietness that nobody has seen a drastic performance foulup in that implementation?)
14:24	dnolen	mac_: it's actually pretty nice looking code, minor things here and there.
14:24	mac_	dnolen: thanks!
14:24	mac_	It's my first real lisp program.
14:24	mac_	Done a fair amount of functional (OCaml, mostly), but never typed this many parentheses in a row before.
14:25	dnolen	mac_: i was going to say, it seemed like you done some FP before
14:25	amalloy	yeah, agreed it reads pretty well mac_. that last (if (empty? wins) nil (first wins)) could just be (first wins)
14:25	Kneferilis	how clojure compares to falcon?
14:25	mac_	amalloy: oh, excellent. What I did felt gross.
14:26	mac_	Got a meeting to run to. Thanks for the help!
14:26	amalloy	oh, and (apply str (interleave x y)) is (clojure.string/join x y)
14:28	hyPiRion	,(clojure.string/join "," [1 2 3])
14:28	clojurebot	"1,2,3"
14:28	tomoj	it seems clj-http is incompatible with cheshire.custom? :(
14:28	hyPiRion	,(apply str (interleave "," [1 2 3]))
14:28	clojurebot	",1"
14:29	amalloy	oh, i see. i was thinking of interpose, because it's such a common pattern
14:29	amalloy	thanks hyPiRion
14:30	hyPiRion	I tend to mix them up as well, I feel like I always have to check if I'm using the right one
14:31	Apage43	tomoj: you can always ask clj-http for a stream and pass it to decode-stream
14:31	tomoj	encoding is the problem
14:32	tomoj	otherwise I could maybe implement a custom response coercion (except clutch won't use it)
14:40	amalloy	am i totally crazy for wanting to turn an if-let into let+if? i have something like (if-let [x (...)] (f x) (let [x' (...)] (g x))), where f and g are very similar-looking expressions. it seems like it might read better to do (if (x-exists?) (let [x (...)] (f x)) (let [x' (...)] (g x)))
14:43	dakrone	tomoj: check out https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http/blob/master/src/clj_http/client.clj#L41-51
14:43	dakrone	tomoj: you can rebind the fns for it if you want to use whatever you'd like
14:43	tomoj	ohh
14:43	tomoj	I didn't notice they were dynamic
14:43	tomoj	excellent, thanks
14:44	hiredman	amalloy: we need compiler magic to take let-if-try-let do the right thing
14:44	Apage43	oh neat, that means I could pull in clj-http without cheshire. Mind I don't think I've ever actually used one and not the other in any project yet..
14:44	hiredman	like other lisps have cdddddr
14:45	dakrone	Apage43: yes, it's all set up so you can exclude cheshire from the deps if you don't want to use it
14:45	spligak	could someone explain this idiom to me? I understand you can drop a hash-map into it, but I'm curious as to what's happening in the function arguments. is there some implicit conversion going on? https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http/blob/master/src/clj_http/client.clj#L75
14:46	tomoj	destructuring?
14:46	clojurebot	destructuring is http://clojure.org/special_forms#let
14:46	amalloy	good idea. if the compiler sees you've mashed the names of six built-ins together into a single symbol, it should figure out what the heck you want that to do
14:46	hiredman	yes
14:46	hiredman	dwim
14:46	dakrone	spligak: the response map is being destructured, the :status key is being pulled out and bound to 'status'
14:47	tomoj	(g x') I assume?
14:47	amalloy	i remember having a hell of a time figuring out destructuring from the examples in JoC. might have been the hardest part of the book for me to understand
14:47	amalloy	tomoj: yep, good catch
14:47	ohpauleez	grzm: Take a look now: https://github.com/ohpauleez/ttt
14:47	ohpauleez	shield your eyes from all the hacks
14:47	ohpauleez	:)
14:48	tomoj	hmm
14:48	ohpauleez	it's very much a scratching pad for me
14:48	dakrone	http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/functions.html#destructuring_of_function_arguments
14:49	spligak	tomoj, dakrone interesting. thanks for the direction here - had skimmed a bit on the topic. was jarring to see it in the wild for the first time.
14:49	spligak	(very new to clojure)
14:50	Gurragchaa	so Clojure runs anywhere that has a JVM installed, right? And if so, can it call all the functions from the Java API, OpenGL in particular?
14:50	spligak	dakrone, oh wow. those examples are excellent. thanks.
14:50	technomancy	Gurragchaa: not really, OpenGL is typically native code
14:50	egghead	hey sjl are you around?
14:51	dakrone	spligak: np, good luck!
14:51	sjl	egghead: yes
14:52	egghead	sjl: I was playing with your wrapper around codahale's metrics -- by default all my bean metrics are under default.default.metricname -- is there any way to change this?
14:52	emezeske	Gurragchaa: If OpenGL can be used by Java on a given platform, then yes, Clojure can use OpenGL via the Java APIs.
14:52	sjl	egghead: http://metrics-clojure.readthedocs.org/en/latest/names.html
14:53	Gurragchaa	so Clojure could theoretically be useful for cross-platform OpenGL game development?
14:53	egghead	d'oh, figures I would have missed it, thanks sjl
14:53	sjl	np
14:53	emezeske	Gurragchaa: Yes
14:53	emezeske	Gurragchaa: https://github.com/ztellman/penumbra
14:54	emezeske	Gurragchaa: Look in the test/ directory for examples of simple games
14:54	technomancy	Gurragchaa: yeah, but not everywhere Java runs
14:55	tomoj	dakrone: needs to be bound at middleware time, though?
14:55	technomancy	just on whatever subset of platforms have lwjgl support
14:55	tomoj	hmm, that shouldn't be the case, I must have screwed up
14:55	dakrone	tomoj: I didn't think it did, but I haven't actually tried it with a different library
14:57	tomoj	oh, looks like clutch calls cheshire.core/generate-string directly
14:58	dakrone	ahh, can't help there then
15:15	frawr	Hi, I have some weird behaviour with lein uberjar. When I run the project with lein run it works, but when i java -jar my standalone jar my main can't be found. Any clues?
15:16	technomancy	frawr: missing a gen-class
15:16	frawr	Only needed in the main's ns right?
15:17	dnolen	ohpauleez: so I see ttt is out there.
15:18	technomancy	frawr: specifically for uberjar, yes
15:18	antares_	frawr: for the standalone jar to work, yes, it is unlikely that you are implementing Java classes in Clojure if you are asking this
15:19	frawr	(ns ap.server.setup (:gen-class)) and in the project definition :main ap.server.setup/quick-start, and quick-start is a fn with only the rest argument in the labdalist
15:19	TimMc	frawr: You can also use my lein-otf plugin if you don't want to have your code AOT'd (so gen-class would be unnecessary of course).
15:20	TimMc	Someone has made a fork of it for lein 2 as well.
15:20	technomancy	frawr: you can also do java -cp my-standalone.jar clojure.main -m my.ns
15:20	frawr	antares_: I don't think that's what I'm asking
15:20	technomancy	without any aot
15:20	antares_	technomancy: isn't :main supposed to take an ns name?
15:20	technomancy	antares_: it can take a var name too, but that's not very well-tested
15:20	technomancy	could be a bug
15:21	antares_	technomancy: I am curious how that works for uberjars
15:21	antares_	if Main-Class in the jar manifest is a class
15:21	technomancy	oh yeah, not at all
15:21	technomancy	it's only for lein run
15:21	technomancy	frawr: that's your problem
15:21	technomancy	should probably put a warning around that or something
15:22	technomancy	not really any way we could support that
15:22	antares_	frawr: your main class ns should have a function named -main and in :main you should specify only namespace, not a var/function
15:22	amalloy	technomancy: whaaaat, of course you could. emit your own gen-classed -main that calls the named var
15:22	frawr	Aah ok
15:22	technomancy	amalloy: right, I mean not without violating the prime directive
15:22	amalloy	$google leiningen prime directive
15:22	lazybot	[compilation - FileNotFoundException when making a jar file from the ...] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3246883/filenotfoundexception-when-making-a-jar-file-from-the-clojure-file
15:23	frawr	didn't know that
15:23	amalloy	i'm disappointed
15:23	technomancy	I just made that up
15:23	clojurebot	I don't understand.
15:23	technomancy	but it sounds good
15:23	antares_	$google what is clojurebot
15:23	lazybot	[irc log: #clojure on 2012-10-12] http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/clojure/irc-logs/2012/10-12.html
15:23	amalloy	it sure does. in this context what does it mean? don't make up code in the user's project or something?
15:23	frawr	and when using java -cp standalone.jar clojure.main -m my.ns, should my.ns be just a ns with a -main too?
15:25	amalloy	yes
15:25	antares_	frawr: basically, you run namespaces. By convention they must have the -main function that takes & args
15:27	frawr	The error running my jar makes more sense too then, it listed the fn i wanted to use as mai as part of the ns, with a dot instead of a slash
15:29	frawr	thnx, works!
15:33	grzm	ohpauleez: thanks! looking forward to it (was pulled away from my desk for a bit)
15:39	technomancy	frawr: yeah, we should probably warn in uberjar when :main is set to a var
15:39	technomancy	it's useful for specifying several run targets in aliases but not or uberjars
15:39	frawr	Didn't really think about it, but that makes sense.
15:42	Cheiron	clojurebot: besame mucho
15:42	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
15:49	frawr	Anyone from the netherlands here?
15:59	jamii	Fun with parsing - http://scattered-thoughts.net/blog/2012/10/25/strucjure-reading-the-readme/
16:03	flying_rhino	hello guys
16:04	AntelopeSalad	is there anything better than ring/jetty out there for powering a web server?
16:04	dnolen	jamii: neat stuff, is there some specific you have planned for strucjure?
16:04	emezeske	AntelopeSalad: Do you have a specific problem with ring/jetty?
16:05	AntelopeSalad	emezeske: yes, it's getting destroyed under load by artifical benchmarks
16:05	flying_rhino	I am wondering is it possible to program in clojure in imperative way, like in Java. I am not saying imperative is better, I just want to know is it doable in principle?
16:05	hiredman	flying_rhino: no
16:05	emezeske	AntelopeSalad: And you're convinced that this is ring or jetty's fault?
16:05	nDuff	...well...
16:05	ivan	flying_rhino: yes
16:05	AntelopeSalad	emezeske: no, that's why i asked if there's an alternative to test against
16:05	nDuff	flying_rhino: _possible_, yes, but very painful.
16:06	ivan	is it really that painful to use doto and mutable objects?
16:06	ivan	it's just freakishly ugly
16:06	AntelopeSalad	i basically put up a node/express server vs clojure/ring (i would have used compojure but the documentation is bad) , and the ring setup was getting beat up, i was hoping there was an alternative
16:06	nDuff	ivan: When all your language facilities are built to work with immutible objects? Yes.
16:07	dnolen	AntelopeSalad: ring/jetty and are very fast.
16:07	emezeske	AntelopeSalad: It's pretty unlikely that the bottleneck is in ring or jetty, as opposed to your application code
16:07	jamii	dnolen: I'm really excited by http://www.viewpointsresearch.org/html/work/ifnct.htm and http://boom.cs.berkeley.edu/
16:07	dnolen	AntelopeSalad: you probably testing w/ a bunch of silly dev route stuff in place.
16:07	flying_rhino	the thing is, I like some stuff about lisp (like macro system and first class functions), and I even like a lot of things about immutability but there are things I can't use it for. For example, game development (I am thinking of developing a game for JVM), almost screams mutable state.
16:07	AntelopeSalad	i dunno, the app code came from the ring documentation
16:07	jamii	dnolen: I want to apply the same kind of thinking to building p2p networks
16:08	jamii	dnolen: I'm going to start porting bloom to clojure next week
16:08	dnolen	AntelopeSalad: doesn't mean much. I've done a ton of pointless benchmarking of netty/jetty/node.js in the past. netty can eat Node.js for breakfast.
16:08	dnolen	AntelopeSalad: jetty is fine for nearly any workload that's not a chat server.
16:08	AntelopeSalad	all i did for clojure was setup a handler to report back hello world with no templating
16:09	ohpauleez	dnolen: ttt is in the wild, but shield your eyes - I did it premature so there was an example of some node.js magic people could work from
16:09	AntelopeSalad	and then i did the same with express
16:09	AntelopeSalad	then i ran it against ab
16:09	flying_rhino	so basically what do you do for things that are best done in mutable way (like some things in game development?)
16:09	tomoj	sounds like a good test if you're going to be serving 100000 'hello world's a second
16:09	AntelopeSalad	http://pastebin.com/FP5vxyWT
16:09	ohpauleez	I ripped the logic query out temporarily and restored the working, but extremely naive for-comprehension
16:09	AntelopeSalad	that is the test setup and results
16:09	dnolen	AntelopeSalad: do some more homework, look at the Jetty docs, if you seeing less than 4000-5000 req/s you're doing something wrong. if you're building a regular website, who cares anyway.
16:10	AntelopeSalad	this is on my horrible computer running in a VM so the reqs/s will be low for both
16:10	dnolen	ohpauleez: still looks like it will be a really sweet resource!
16:11	tomoj	the req/s differences there look.. unimportant
16:11	flying_rhino	guys?
16:11	ohpauleez	dnolen: Here's hoping! :)
16:11	emezeske	AntelopeSalad: How are you running the clojure code? lein ring?
16:11	AntelopeSalad	tomoj: look at the -c 150 one, the node server is pumping out 50% more reqs/s
16:12	AntelopeSalad	that is a non-trivial amount
16:12	AntelopeSalad	emezeske: i followed the ring's documentation
16:12	dnolen	jamii: yeah I've been following along - sounds like you've finally find some time to put it together. You're at HackerSchool right?
16:12	AntelopeSalad	https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/wiki/Getting-Started
16:12	AntelopeSalad	i used this exactly, except ring 1.1.6
16:12	AntelopeSalad	and clojure 1.4
16:12	jamii	dnolen: Yep. I really needed this kind of environment to actually get moving. Far too easily distracted otherwise :)
16:12	tomoj	yeah, if you're just serving hello worlds
16:13	dnolen	jamii: been wanting to find some time to really dig into Bloom but I've been busy w/ other things, look forward to seeing the trail you blaze.
16:13	jamii	dnolen: thanks
16:13	dnolen	jamii: yeah I love the VPRI/FONC stuff
16:13	AntelopeSalad	tomoj: what do you propose is a better test, should i return a 5kb string instead?
16:14	ordnungswidrig	hmm, me has only 500/s for a simple "OK" response with -c 50
16:14	ordnungswidrig	osx seems to do sth wrong
16:14	dnolen	AntelopeSalad: actually those benches look about right, the difference doesn't look large enough to care though. Once you have template, DB, etc I can't imagine there being an interesting diff.
16:14	ohpauleez	amalloy: Thanks for the typo catches
16:15	AntelopeSalad	dnolen: 50% isn't enough to care about?
16:15	AntelopeSalad	what about an api server that doesn't serve templates?
16:15	AntelopeSalad	or a game backend that's just returning json too with websockets, etc.
16:15	emezeske	AntelopeSalad: That benchmark is fairly useless with respect to both of those examples
16:15	ordnungswidrig	AntelopeSalad: is it tuned until no more? Regarding settings, buffer sizes etc?
16:16	AntelopeSalad	ordnungswidrig: not at all, i have no experience with clojure. i was just bored this afternoon and wanted to setup a comparison between it and node
16:16	AntelopeSalad	because i'd like to learn something as a general purpose web language
16:16	dnolen	AntelopeSalad: if you want better than Node.js async perf, I already said use Netty.
16:16	ordnungswidrig	AntelopeSalad: don't do it :-)
16:17	AntelopeSalad	ordnungswidrig: don't do what?
16:17	AntelopeSalad	dnolen: will that still work with ring and compojure?
16:17	dnolen	AntelopeSalad: w/o seeing a real workload, it's hard to extract any meaning from those numbers.
16:17	AntelopeSalad	i like the way compojure handles routes a lot
16:17	emezeske	AntelopeSalad: To answer your question earlier, 50% is definitely not enough to care about, compared to other factors like developer productivity
16:18	emezeske	AntelopeSalad: Unless you really, really know you're going to be serving tens of thousands of qps or something
16:18	dnolen	AntelopeSalad: I believe Aleph may have ring compat.
16:18	ordnungswidrig	AntelopeSalad: such tests, when you don't know how to tweek to max performance
16:18	AntelopeSalad	yeah, it's just bs tests atm, there's no real world data to run it against
16:19	ordnungswidrig	I do web development since 15 years and I never had a case where the bottleneck was the http server implementation :)
16:20	AntelopeSalad	i only asked because cost might be a deciding factor at some point
16:20	AntelopeSalad	i figured "oh man, 50% wtf... that's going to be 50% more expensive"
16:20	emezeske	ordnungswidrig: I've run into cases where the HTTP server was the bottleneck, and the answer was _easily_ "throw a couple more servers at it."
16:20	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: I've never, ever seen the bottleneck be there.
16:21	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: it's pretty much always datastore, occasionally inefficient app-layer logic...
16:21	emezeske	AntelopeSalad: Unless you are serving at a massive, massive scale, paying for engineers dominates paying for servers
16:21	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: "50% more" doesn't matter if that 50% is 0.5% of your runtime.
16:21	ordnungswidrig	emezeske: sure, there are those cases. But they are special in my experience. and often enough you can change application architecture to reduce the necessary load on servers, conditional requests, caching etc.
16:21	AntelopeSalad	emezeske: yeah of course, if it gets really big then you're in a great position to hire people who know how to deal with it
16:21	ordnungswidrig	nDuff: exactly!
16:22	AntelopeSalad	i was looking at it from a perspective of playing a game
16:22	ordnungswidrig	AntelopeSalad: it's like having to pay income tax. it's a good sign, saying that you acutally have income
16:22	AntelopeSalad	it may involve sending back and forth a lot of small size packets
16:22	emezeske	ordnungswidrig: We agree: 50% means basically nothing. :)
16:23	ordnungswidrig	AntelopeSalad: your problem will be more likely how many connection can be handled at once.
16:23	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: ...also, you want to pay attention (lots of attention!) to how things scale on multi-core architectures
16:23	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: ...which is not really one of node's strengths, but the direction hardware has been heading in for ages.
16:23	AntelopeSalad	ord: from those tests it looks like the jetty server would eventually crumble with more concurrency
16:23	dnolen	AntelopeSalad: I ran a Netty+Clojure benchmark on an Amazon Compute Cluster 2 years - I had no idea what I was doing & the hello world benchmark hit >20K req/s.
16:24	AntelopeSalad	nDuff: my VM is only running off 1 core, and scaling node to use multi-cores is nearly automatic and super easy
16:24	dnolen	AntelopeSalad: I'm sure Jetty could break 10-15K on the same machine.
16:25	technomancy	flying_rhino: you can use java arrays and such from clojure
16:25	AntelopeSalad	dnolen: i'm not sure what that is, some type of server cluster?
16:25	dnolen	AntelopeSalad: 8 core 23gb box.
16:25	flying_rhino	technomancy: that's good to know
16:25	AntelopeSalad	processor concurrency is something clojure gives us for free right?
16:26	emezeske	AntelopeSalad: Jetty is _not_ going to be your bottleneck for serving http. It just isn't worth worrying about.
16:26	dnolen	AntelopeSalad: my point is, I'd trust any JVM lib for scaling over Node.js
16:26	technomancy	flying_rhino: http://meshy.org/2009/12/13/widefinder-2-with-clojure.html <- good example of falling back to java-like code when speed is more important than maintainability
16:26	AntelopeSalad	i mean, to utilize >1 core there's nothing you have to touch?
16:26	dnolen	AntelopeSalad: Jetty & Netty autoscale yes.
16:26	flying_rhino	can I create something like Java struct? (mutable class with no methods)
16:26	dnolen	AntelopeSalad: of course in a real app you probably need to do a lot of knob twiddling.
16:26	technomancy	flying_rhino: you can do that with deftype, but usually it's a waste of time
16:27	technomancy	it's there for those 2% cases when mutability is actually a problem, but it's extremely rare
16:27	antares_	AntelopeSalad: there is no such as "concurrency for free". If your server or app does use concurrency in bottleneck areas, with multiple cores you will get close-to-linear throughput increase.
16:27	flying_rhino	technomancy: well some things about games are inherently mutable, unfortuantely
16:27	technomancy	that's one opinion
16:27	AntelopeSalad	antares_: i meant from a writing code perspective
16:27	antares_	jetty will make use of extra cores to some extent, given that you have many concurrent requests
16:28	nDuff	flying_rhino: Remember the ants demo? :)
16:28	AntelopeSalad	if you setup a few lines of logic to handle spawning child processes in node it'll do its thing automatically give you multi-core usage
16:28	technomancy	the only thing inherent about mutability is the fact that you're running on a Von Neumann architecture
16:28	hyPiRion	I've made a lot of different simulators and agents for different bots without mutability
16:28	flying_rhino	technomancy: you pretty much have to update entire state every tick. In case of RPG I intend to make taht's every 0.25 seconds.
16:28	AntelopeSalad	antares_: ok, that sounds good
16:28	hyPiRion	/s/bots/games
16:28	antares_	AntelopeSalad: Clojure gives you safe defaults and building blocks. No "concurrency for free" with any language.
16:28	antares_	AntelopeSalad: yeah except that spawning a new OS process is dead slow
16:29	emezeske	flying_rhino: It's perfectly possible to write a Clojure game without using mutable structs
16:29	flying_rhino	nDuff: I am not aware of any ants demo. Can you provied me a link.
16:29	antares_	comparatively to a new thread or Erlang process/Gorouting
16:29	technomancy	flying_rhino: you're coming at the problem with preconceived biases that aren't based on empirical measurements
16:29	nDuff	flying_rhino: https://gist.github.com/1093917
16:29	amalloy	$google functional retro games
16:29	lazybot	[Purely Functional Retrogames, Part 1] http://prog21.dadgum.com/23.html
16:30	AntelopeSalad	btw i didn't intend for this to be any type of flame-y conversation
16:30	AntelopeSalad	i seriously like clojure a lot
16:30	AntelopeSalad	(from what i've read so far at least in the "clojure programming" book and fooling around with the repl)
16:30	nDuff	flying_rhino: ...or, for a newer version: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3099
16:30	antares_	AntelopeSalad: me neither, I find node.js a good choice for Web apps. See http://aphyr.com/posts/244-context-switches-and-serialization-in-node
16:31	riddochc	Sorry, been busy.
16:32	emezeske	amalloy: That's a good entry, although some of the problems he runs into are pretty erlang-specific
16:32	ordnungswidrig	hmm, any idea why stock run-jetty will stop at 50% cpu on both cores?
16:32	AntelopeSalad	antares_: this looks like a good article but wouldn't you share state in the db most of the time anyways?
16:32	AntelopeSalad	seems like suicide to have state locked into your app process
16:32	ordnungswidrig	with stop I mean, limit
16:32	AntelopeSalad	then you lose any form of scaling out
16:32	emezeske	amalloy: Like I guess erlang doesn't let you keep shadowing the same local, e.g. (let [a 1 a (+ a 1) a (- a 5)] ...) ?
16:32	antares_	AntelopeSalad: this is a typical Web app developer perspective
16:32	emezeske	amalloy: I could see how that would be annoying
16:32	ordnungswidrig	AntelopeSalad: you will limit yourself to how fast you can seek a disk.
16:32	antares_	AntelopeSalad: google for Wooga and Erlang. They used to share state via data stores. 24 boxes. In-process state with Erlang in the app — 1 box.
16:33	AntelopeSalad	i mean, if i wanted to store session info on a user. i'd surely put it into redis or some other third party memory storage not the app
16:33	ordnungswidrig	AntelopeSalad: session does not scale. it's shared state that forces you to synchronization, transactions etc.
16:33	antares_	AntelopeSalad: yeah, that's what Wooga did in one of their games
16:34	AntelopeSalad	this way you could have 1 or 50 app servers reading from the same redis server
16:34	antares_	AntelopeSalad: grew up to 24 machines. Shoveled state in and out all the time for no reason. In-process state reduced hardware requirements to 1 machine.
16:34	amalloy	emezeske: i actually haven't read much of it, but i don't think that matters. it's a series on writing games without state, which must be of interest
16:34	antares_	AntelopeSalad: when all you do is Web apps, everything looks like a bunch of stateless servers and shared state in Redis
16:34	antares_	a lot of software is not like that or should not be like that
16:35	AntelopeSalad	antares_: yeah, that is good right?
16:35	ordnungswidrig	AntelopeSalad: datomic has a nice model: a writer (transaction) multiple reader nodes having local caches for indexes etc.
16:35	emezeske	amalloy: Oh, it is very much of interest.
16:35	antares_	AntelopeSalad: how is that good?
16:35	AntelopeSalad	if you keep state out of your process, then you can freely scale out without it being a big deal
16:35	antares_	AntelopeSalad: having just 1 option you try to apply to everything does not sound good to me
16:35	AntelopeSalad	*app process
16:35	emezeske	amalloy: I think I ended up on that blog from that series, and ended up reading every entry exhaustively... O_o
16:35	amalloy	yeah, i like his blog too
16:36	antares_	AntelopeSalad: is a game something you'd do like that?
16:36	antares_	AntelopeSalad: with game/player state always being stored in and taken out of Redis?
16:36	AntelopeSalad	for a game? i'm not sure. i haven't really thought about that fully ever
16:37	AntelopeSalad	if it's important data i'd probably save it on disk and have a copy in memory for faster access
16:37	antares_	AntelopeSalad: see http://www.slideshare.net/wooga/erlang-factory-sanfran
16:37	ordnungswidrig	AntelopeSalad: btw. think of cutting your state into parts. maybe you can distribute the state on different nodes then. or you can work with eventual consistency.
16:38	AntelopeSalad	wow this talk looks like it'll be quite interesting
16:40	AntelopeSalad	antares_: do you happen to know if the video of this is posted anywhere?
16:40	antares_	AntelopeSalad: I don't know. Another talk by the same person: http://www.slideshare.net/hungryblank/getting-real-with-erlang, see slide 46
16:41	AntelopeSalad	app servers don't need to be monolithic either
16:42	antares_	the only reason is why so much software is I/O bound is because a lot of software is written that way: all state is always sholved in and taken out of a data store, even if there is no real reason for doing so
16:42	antares_	"we just have always been doing it, right?"
16:43	AntelopeSalad	right
16:43	antares_	that's not at all how things are in many other areas of software
16:43	AntelopeSalad	i think it's because we can't even trust our web servers
16:43	AntelopeSalad	they need to be restarted pretty frequently
16:43	emezeske	antares_: You know... there are some good reasons for how web apps are architected, with databases, etc. Right?
16:44	AntelopeSalad	also (maybe not in clojure's case tho) if you push a new build that requires restarting the app
16:44	antares_	with erlang and to some extent Clojure (or Scala and Java w/ Akka), you can have sane state management and recovery
16:44	antares_	so keeping state in-process is not a problem
16:44	antares_	emezeske: there are good reasons but Web developers blindly apply the same approach to EVERYTHING
16:45	AntelopeSalad	i thought one of clojure's main philosophies was to eliminate state and only deal with pure data
16:45	emezeske	antares_: Well, it turns out that most web apps are kinda similar to one another
16:45	antares_	and then spread the gospel of node.js, redis and other stuff that is only necessary if you do things in a particular way
16:45	hyPiRion	AntelopeSalad: Clojure's main philosophy is to make software development less complex.
16:46	antares_	AntelopeSalad: eliminate state? Useful programs always have state. The question is how you change and incapsulate it.
16:47	AntelopeSalad	antares_: in the first slide show, what are those blue dots on slide 46?
16:47	AntelopeSalad	are they supposed to be processes?
16:47	antares_	presumably processes, Erlang or not
16:47	antares_	the point is that in Erlang, distribution is transparent and processes across machines form a single "cluster"
16:48	ordnungswidrig	why ist there still no OTP for clojure? Seems so natural.
16:49	AntelopeSalad	what would be contained in each process in this example?
16:49	antares_	AntelopeSalad: in their game example, one player's state
16:49	AntelopeSalad	some piece of the final app and then the "process cluster" is the combination of each sub-app?
16:49	antares_	but there are always additional processes that carry out smaller tasks
16:49	ordnungswidrig	http://www.12factor.net/processes
16:51	antares_	ordnungswidrig: keep in mind that that "guide" assumes that what you build is Web apps, on multiple layers. Assets packagers clearly indicate that.
16:52	ordnungswidrig	absolutely. but the idea of process as an complete processing unit is nice.
16:52	AntelopeSalad	i'm not sure i understand how their state is stored and gotten back out
16:52	antares_	AntelopeSalad: in erlang processes. Do you know anything about Erlang?
16:53	antares_	AntelopeSalad: it is NOT stored until a round or the entire game is over
16:53	AntelopeSalad	i know nothing except a lot of people joke at how cryptic its syntax is
16:53	antares_	not stored to a database
16:54	antares_	erlang VM can have up to millions of Erlang processes, some of them store state for the duration of a game round
16:54	antares_	when the round is over, it is stored to the database
16:55	antares_	but all intermediate changes are not stored there, they are kept in the app and propagated to players
16:55	AntelopeSalad	sounds dangerous
16:55	antares_	this cuts number of requests by 99%, as slide 46 indicates
16:55	AntelopeSalad	what happens if something goes wrong and the process crashes?
16:55	antares_	AntelopeSalad: it is not dangerous because Erlang has the concept of supervision trees
16:56	antares_	AntelopeSalad: it is restarted by its supervisor. Whole trees of processes can be restarted.
16:56	AntelopeSalad	and it knows what to put back in?
16:56	antares_	AntelopeSalad: that is NOT an OS process, so process crashes means you have issues in your code or something like a network split has happened
16:56	AntelopeSalad	ah
16:57	antares_	AntelopeSalad: it can load something form a database or simply start from scratch
16:57	antares_	in an interactive game if a piece of state is gone, it sucks but you cannot make every single change persistent anyway
16:57	antares_	there are too many of them
16:57	AntelopeSalad	i was thinking of it as a worst case scenario like
16:57	AntelopeSalad	what if you pay for something in the game and then something happens with the process, the round isn't over yet
16:57	AntelopeSalad	if it crashes and restarts you lose what you paid for
16:57	antares_	so they are batched in some shape or form. The difference is that if an OS process goes down, you lose a lot of state + need to reinitialize everything
16:58	antares_	in Erlang, a process that goes down is usually monitored by another process and will be restarted
16:58	antares_	(or not, it is up to developers)
16:58	antares_	AntelopeSalad: changes that you pay for are probably not stored just in process
16:58	antares_	AntelopeSalad: but 99% of state changes can be
16:59	AntelopeSalad	i see an item moving into your inventory as being a state change
16:59	antares_	AntelopeSalad: that does not happen that often
16:59	antares_	if you care, you can store that
17:00	antares_	but movements that happen all the time, it makes no sense to try to store every single one of them
17:00	antares_	that's just too wasteful
17:00	AntelopeSalad	yeah, i agree with that, trying to store every single one would be a bit much
17:00	antares_	and if you crash it does not necessarily make sense to recover EVERYTHING
17:00	AntelopeSalad	it would only be useful if you wanted to make a full on replay of something
17:01	antares_	AntelopeSalad: databases have buffers and periodically flush data to disk, nobody seems to be too concerned about that
17:01	antares_	one database goes so far its clients do not check for network errors, and Web developers go gaga over its benchmarks
17:01	Apage43	..
17:01	AntelopeSalad	in most cases that is their job
17:01	antares_	AntelopeSalad: but it's the same thing
17:01	emezeske	/join #erlang
17:01	antares_	you cannot persist everything, it will be too time consuming
17:02	antares_	so you choose what to store (in case of databases, fsync), apparently in many cases that is a tiny fraction of total state changes
17:02	AntelopeSalad	you might not need to persist everything, but you'll probably have to handle everything in your app
17:02	AntelopeSalad	like, player x moved from old-coords to new-coords
17:03	antares_	so?
17:03	Cheiron	A java method requires Class as a parameter, how to pass that in clj?
17:03	Sgeo	,(class Object)
17:03	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
17:03	AntelopeSalad	i was just getting that in the end you will transfering back and forth a lot of traffic
17:03	antares_	Cheiron: (class x) or (Class/forName "String")
17:04	antares_	AntelopeSalad: eh?
17:04	TimMc	Cheiron: Just write the classname.
17:04	antares_	AntelopeSalad: no you won't. 99% of your state changes happen in-process.
17:04	antares_	or at least they can
17:04	Cheiron	TimMC: using the class name is throwing classnotfoundexception
17:04	clojure	ohpauleez: so is ttt pretty zippy on the command line?
17:04	AntelopeSalad	client moves from old to new -- client sends that to the server -- server says ok, it's a legit movement back to the client -- client continues
17:05	antares_	AntelopeSalad: well, if clients cannot talk to each other directly, there is no way around that
17:05	antares_	a lot of state can even be stored on the client only (maybe not in multiplayer games, but just software)
17:05	ohpauleez	For those curious, here's a screencast of me using ttt and how to use it (2 min): http://www.pauldee.org/TTT-Intro.mov
17:05	dnolen	ohpauleez: oops that was my question, about ttt's on the command line.
17:05	AntelopeSalad	you might need to check vs a central server to make sure it's within a specific bounds
17:05	dnolen	ohpauleez: sweet!
17:05	ohpauleez	dnolen: ^ very zippy
17:05	antares_	AntelopeSalad: and how is it different when your server is completely stateless?
17:05	AntelopeSalad	sort of like having validation code running on your server, of course you need it -- you can't just trust the client (javascript) straight up
17:06	antares_	it is not but you send even more data around, for no good reason
17:06	antares_	AntelopeSalad: again, why?
17:06	AntelopeSalad	yeah it's not different in the end
17:06	antares_	because Ruby on Rails works that way?
17:06	dnolen	ohpauleez: are you going to publicize this or waiting to clean it up a bit?
17:06	AntelopeSalad	i have no idea, i never used rails
17:06	antares_	of course you can (again, maybe not in games, but in general you can)
17:06	Apage43	multiplayer games do a -lot- client side. The server is there mostly to make sure the things the clients say make sense (aren't cheating), and that they sync up.
17:06	nDuff	nod.
17:06	antares_	in games client-side state means cheaters will try to exploit it
17:06	emezeske	antares_: Are you suggesting that you can leave validation to the client?
17:07	antares_	but you sure can store and change a lot of the state in the client
17:07	ohpauleez	dnolen: I'm ok with people checking it out now, but I'm going to clean it up a little bit before I hit the list with it
17:07	antares_	emezeske: absolutely
17:07	dnolen	ohpauleez: cool
17:07	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: ...you don't need to make the server validate _every_ move -- those can be batched.
17:07	antares_	emezeske: the only case where it won't work is if you also have an API
17:07	nDuff	No point to making your app unnecessarily latency-sensitive.
17:07	ohpauleez	dnolen: The best piece of code in there is "blocking-deref" which I think is pretty essential for sane use of Node.js
17:07	AntelopeSalad	nDuff: yeah, i'm not a game dev -- i'm sure there's all sorts of tweaks you can do to minimize the back and forth traffic
17:07	AntelopeSalad	but it's something i want to persue in the future
17:07	dnolen	ohpauleez: is that a macro?
17:08	TimMc	Cheiron: You'll need to (:import ..) it then.
17:08	emezeske	antares_: Uh...
17:08	dnolen	ohpauleez: demo looks cool, and yeah, fun to see command line usage of Clojure that isn't glacial
17:08	antares_	AntelopeSalad: on crappy mobile networks, again, a lot of state is kept in the client for at least some time
17:08	TimMc	Cheiron: or use the pacakge-qualified name.
17:08	antares_	emezeske: Uh what?
17:08	ohpauleez	dnolen: Function - it just ticks Node.js until a promise is fulfilled
17:08	dnolen	ohpauleez: neat
17:09	dnolen	ohpauleez: sounds worthy of blog post
17:09	antares_	emezeske: are you saying that nobody does that? How about lots-of-state-on-the-client libraries like Ember or even backbone?
17:09	ohpauleez	dnolen: it's coming :)
17:09	AntelopeSalad	antares_: handling a lot of state on the client seems worse for mobile dev
17:09	antares_	AntelopeSalad: yeah? what will you do when your app detects there is no network connection?
17:09	AntelopeSalad	if you're talking about stiching up templates with js template libs, that's going to be put serious stress on a mobile device
17:10	AntelopeSalad	*stitching
17:10	emezeske	antares_: You made it sound like the server doesn't need to validate input it's receiving. If that's not what you mean, then fine.
17:10	Sgeo	I'm under the impression that multiplayer games sometimes do store quite a bit of state client-side that server doesn't check, because a bit of cheating is not as bad as having a server that barely runs because it needs to check everything
17:10	Sgeo	And using a lot of bandwidth and time for every frame that the client needs to display
17:10	ordnungswidrig	Sgeo: the server can batch-validate later
17:10	antares_	AntelopeSalad: what will your super-neat server-based mobile app do when it has no network connection? it has to either keep state in the app for at least some time or drop it on the floor
17:10	AntelopeSalad	Sgeo: there's probably client side prediction to make it look smooth without crushing the server, but then every x frames or milliseconds it checks back to make sure you're in bounds
17:11	Sgeo	Can't batch-validate whether client is using semitransparent textures on walls in 3d games
17:11	emezeske	Sgeo: The server in a multiplayer game should check all state that could affect the outcome of the game
17:11	antares_	so, it turns out, completely stateless apps is just one historically formed case with "traditional Web apps"
17:11	AntelopeSalad	antares_: i don't know, i don't develop for mobile devices yet
17:11	emezeske	Sgeo: Of course graphical state doesn't matter, e.g. in counterstrike source, the ragdoll physics are not synced among clients because they don't really affect the outcome
17:11	antares_	with mobile clients, real-time games and data processing, in-process state is an important part of the equation
17:12	dnolen	ohpauleez: cool to see the datalog query lang, I checked out the core.logic bits seems like a nice and simple use case.
17:12	emezeske	Sgeo: For things like transparent texture hacking, they do a lot of hashing to check things server side, but obviously that's a cat and mouse game
17:13	ohpauleez	dnolen: I agree; it's a simple way to say, "Here's a quick way logic makes this easy"
17:13	Sgeo	But the possibility of cheating is still better than the alternative of having the server compute every bitmap and send it to the client
17:13	AntelopeSalad	antares_: in the case of losing connection, i have to guess that the server will keep everything in order and keep trying until it eventually either times out or the client comes back from the dead
17:13	ohpauleez	dnolen: I agree with martin - you can get pretty far with unify, binding-map, set, and filter
17:13	antares_	AntelopeSalad: that's not what I am talking about
17:13	antares_	AntelopeSalad: my network is down, the user added something in the app
17:13	antares_	AntelopeSalad: what do you do if you cannot send a piece of data to your shiny node.js backend?
17:13	emezeske	Sgeo: Well, onlive did it the latter way (server computes everything), although they did not do well as a business
17:14	antares_	AntelopeSalad: drop the change or keep it in the app until network access is back? I think the answer is obvious.
17:14	AntelopeSalad	antares_: in that case, keep it in the app for sure -- if we're talking about a content oriented web app that isn't really multi-player
17:15	AntelopeSalad	but "app" in this case would be javascript on the client most likely
17:15	antares_	AntelopeSalad: so there you go, you are dealing with more sophisticated state changes. If that happens to include concurrency, bam, it's a lot of fun. Clojure is one of a few languages where state management is much more predictable, even with a lot of concurrency going on.
17:16	AntelopeSalad	i'm not sure why node would fail with that use case
17:16	antares_	AntelopeSalad: javascript or not, the belief that all software is stateless or should be such is wrong
17:16	dnolen	ohpauleez: yep. lynaghk is working on some cool things it's giving me ideas for things to work on.
17:16	AntelopeSalad	your state would be partially stored in some client side code that is 100% isolated from the server -- the server choice at this point has no bearing
17:16	antares_	AntelopeSalad: node tries to hide concurrent state management from you by only having 1 thread and callback soups everywhere
17:17	AntelopeSalad	it auto-spawns child processes and manages them internally, i don't know the exact details though
17:17	dnolen	ohpauleez: I think by making it clear how to build simple rules system maybe be a better entry point for most people than the raw miniKanren itself
17:17	Apage43	wait what
17:17	antares_	AntelopeSalad: yeah, I guess you never developed anything that's not a Web app and my point will not get across
17:17	ohpauleez	dnolen: We were just hacking on all that stuff this past weekend - you should have seen the whiteboard - so.much.core.logic.
17:17	antares_	AntelopeSalad: it does not autospawn a thing
17:17	dnolen	ohpauleez: ah right, did you meat up with Kevin in NYC?
17:17	dnolen	ohpauleez: oh, your in Portland now right?
17:18	AntelopeSalad	antares_: if you use the cluster module it forks children and then has its own messaging system setup
17:18	antares_	AntelopeSalad: maybe some servers do, again, this can be "automatic" only as long as there is no need to share any state and process interactions are trivial
17:18	ohpauleez	dnolen: I totally agree - more than happy to help with those efforts. Yeah, I'm out in Portland mostly full-time now
17:19	dnolen	ohpauleez: he's got some neat things he wants to do w/ the grammar of graphics stuff, a lot of it really can be done w/ simple unification + simple constraints (my new idea)
17:19	AntelopeSalad	antares_: i think that brings us in a full circle haha
17:19	antares_	AntelopeSalad: but that's not Node. That's some cluster module. And fork(2) is an expensive operation.
17:20	AntelopeSalad	it might not be able to handle state in that case which is why people just throw their state in redis
17:20	AntelopeSalad	cluster is a core module for node
17:20	AntelopeSalad	just like http is a core module for node
17:21	ohpauleez	dnolen: For sure. I'd be interested in taking a look at what you cook up for simple constraints- it's one area of core.logic I haven't ventured into yet
17:21	Apage43	I remember when it wasn't =P
17:21	Apage43	that is, it used to be its own thing
17:22	Apage43	it's been pulled into the standard distribution, but it doesn't do anything "special" to make it work well with node
17:22	Sgeo	Similarly to how lazy-seq exists, something for developers to make their own lazy-seq like things
17:22	Apage43	it just sets up a way for you to message the leader, basically
17:22	AntelopeSalad	Apage43: yeah
17:22	AntelopeSalad	it works though
17:22	Sgeo	Such that client code does not have to deal with forcing
17:22	AntelopeSalad	and it's basically hands free once you set it up
17:23	Apage43	right, assuming no shared state
17:23	AntelopeSalad	yep
17:23	dnolen	ohpauleez: basically a simple way to take any predicate and attach it to a var, soon as the var becomes ground it will run. This will let people say things like only unify if number, or if this class, etc.
17:23	AntelopeSalad	that's why everyone keeps their web servers statelesss
17:23	AntelopeSalad	and all of this stemmed from the TL;DR part of this: http://aphyr.com/posts/244-context-switches-and-serialization-in-node
17:23	ohpauleez	dnolen: YES!!!
17:24	Apage43	because it sucks to write a stateful one in node =P
17:24	AntelopeSalad	he basically says it's not an issue if you keep state out of the app
17:24	ohpauleez	It's like you were sitting on my laptop last night
17:24	ohpauleez	I was in the weeds working on core.contracts+test.generative+Alloy and facing that exact situation
17:24	AntelopeSalad	Apage43: and in clojure it won't be a problem to run a multi-core/server stateful app?
17:24	AntelopeSalad	i haven't gotten to managing state and concurrency yet in the book
17:25	Apage43	not nearly so much as in node, no
17:25	Apage43	multi-server you have the same issues
17:25	Apage43	but not with multi-core
17:25	AntelopeSalad	multi-server seems pretty standard to me
17:25	ohpauleez	dnolen: ^ (my current approach is a generic "spec" hashmap that gets unified and processed for each any backend. Making it open for extension)
17:25	antares_	AntelopeSalad: I am convinced that Web developers run everything stateless because 1) they have never seen a different approach because Web devs only work on Web apps, 2) almost all modern languages suck at error handling and recovery, which is very important for in-app state
17:26	antares_	it has nothing to do with "scaling out". Your state is still shared, you just shifted the bottleneck to the database. And once you have a few DB machines, the whole consistency/availability dance begins.
17:26	AntelopeSalad	no matter what choice you make, a single server is eventually going to crumble with enough pressure
17:26	ordnungswidrig	antares_: and today's web developers know only database for persistence.
17:26	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: Nobody is denying the need to scale to multiple servers.
17:27	antares_	AntelopeSalad: cool, why again should I keep my app completely stateless?
17:27	Apage43	AntelopeSalad: sure, but with the node-cluster approach you couldn't easily do something like distributing users over the works, but then giving the users affinity to a particular worker, and then just manage that state on that worker
17:27	technomancy	I dunno, I think people spend way too much time thinking "what if we become the next facebook"
17:27	Apage43	*workers
17:27	antares_	AntelopeSalad: I can keep it mostly stateful and sync when important evens happen
17:27	antares_	*events
17:27	nDuff	...trying to hard to keep things stateless means your caches aren't close to your requests
17:27	AntelopeSalad	Apage43: can't you use a load balancer that handles sticky sessions?
17:27	antares_	that's what the presentation above basically demonstrates
17:27	Apage43	AntelopeSalad: not with node-cluster..
17:28	nDuff	so you move things out into memcached or such, but then you're going over a network rather than being able to refer to local memory.
17:28	AntelopeSalad	Apage43: why not?
17:28	Apage43	because once it hits a server you don't get to pick what worker the connection goes to
17:28	nDuff	Apage43: ...well, that's not quite true; there are techniques for that.
17:28	Apage43	since its dispatched before you know who it's from
17:28	AntelopeSalad	your clustered app is running on 1 port, it doesn't spawn a "real" new process
17:29	nDuff	Apage43: First person to get a request assigns a cookie. Cookie comes through on all future requests. Load balancer looks at it to pick first-choice handler.
17:29	AntelopeSalad	as far as your load balancer knows, it's just a single app (i would think, i never tested it full hand)
17:29	AntelopeSalad	*first
17:29	ivan	can I query postgres with datalog queries yet?
17:30	nDuff	...oh, you're talking about separate-process workers being locally dispatched w/ something not as smart as HAProxy or such? Ugh.
17:30	antares_	nDuff: this means now you have a stateful load-balancer ;) won't you want to scale load balancers once you become the next facebook?
17:30	AntelopeSalad	i don't even care about scaling right now haha
17:30	AntelopeSalad	i just didn't want to spent 50% more
17:30	AntelopeSalad	and you guys cleared it up that it won't be a direct 50% cost increase
17:30	nDuff	antares_: Yes, I have a stateful load balancer. There are damned good ones on the market -- but it doesn't need to be as stateful as you think, if it's just using a hash of the cookie for assignment.
17:30	wingy	technomancy: or they are just curious about how it works :)
17:31	antares_	nDuff: I was kidding. "Smart proxies" definitely can solve some problems well, and there are good off-the-shelf solutions.
17:32	AntelopeSalad	nDuff: are you running any decently large sites atm with ring serving everything?
17:32	dnolen	ohpauleez: another thing would be "ghost" values
17:33	dnolen	ohpauleez: values which can be replaced by other values w/ failing unification
17:33	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: Nope. My last decently large site was a Django shop. Python's not exactly a high-performance language, not Django a high-performance stack... but it didn't matter, because we did a decent job at horizontal scaling.
17:33	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: Same thing applies here, except that the JVM is one helluva faster runtime than CPython.
17:34	dnolen	ohpauleez: w/o I mean
17:34	AntelopeSalad	can you give me a ballpark on how much traffic you guys had and how much it cost per month for hosting?
17:34	AntelopeSalad	doesn't need to be exact, just a rough estimate
17:35	ohpauleez	dnolen: ahh gotcha - would be useful when doing a lot of data-oriented unification
17:37	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: In PM.
17:37	wei_	in clojure, you extend the reader by rebinding data-readers. how to do so in clojurescript? looks like data-readers is not bound.
17:41	dnolen	wei_: hasn't been done yet as far as I know. could be wrong
17:42	wei_	i see, thanks
17:44	Cheiron	Hi, any idea what is this ? http://pastie.org/5120925
17:45	scriptor	what's the code giving that error, Cheiron
17:45	Cheiron	trying to test Storm topology with Storm provided macros
17:54	riddochc1	that feels like chaos
17:54	riddochc1	SOrry.
17:54	riddochc1	Wrong channel.
17:55	Cheiron	it it possible to exclude a namespace from :aot of lein?
18:01	technomancy	Cheiron: ...yes?
18:02	Cheiron	I checked the sample.project.clj
18:02	Cheiron	but didn't find an option to exclude a namespace from :aot
18:02	technomancy	:aot is a vector
18:03	technomancy	oh, you mean exclude it from :aot :all? there's nothing for that, no.
18:04	Cheiron	I see, thanks!
18:05	technomancy	I think :aot might support a vector of regexes as well though
18:07	aperiodic	it does
18:10	Cheiron	it does? so something like com.domain.* will compile the whole name space but not clojure.pprint ?
18:11	aperiodic	it will compile every namespace that match com.domain.* and any namespaces they use/require
18:12	aperiodic	as far as i know there's no way around that
18:13	Cheiron	I see
18:14	wingy	does aleph work with ring/compojure?
18:14	technomancy	yeah, that's a long standing clojure bug
18:25	ivan	wingy: pretty sure it does
18:27	Apage43	wingy: you can even use compojure to route async stuff
18:27	Apage43	see (wrap-ring-handler) and (wrap-aleph-handler) in the Aleph API
18:28	wingy	https://github.com/ztellman/aleph/wiki/HTTP
18:28	wingy	yeah .. nice
18:28	wingy	now i can choose when to do (a)synchronous handling
18:28	Apage43	yup.
18:30	Apage43	you can do stuff like use compojure to dispatch to a websocket handler
18:31	wingy	are there reasons to use jetty instead of aleph? seems like aleph scales better
18:32	tomoj	:(
18:32	Apage43	well if you stick with pure ring, you get the rest of the servlet ecosystem
18:32	Apage43	if you're into that kind of thing
18:33	Apage43	you can spit out WAR files that you can just drop on any servlet-compatible container and have them go
18:33	xeqi	wingy: source?
18:33	wingy	okay .. im not familiar with WAR files and servlets .. have to read up on that
18:34	Apage43	it's the sort of thing that's more valuable if you have lots of existing Java infrastructure
18:34	wingy	xeqi: coming from node.js where we learned async handling = higher performance
18:35	wingy	Apage43: i see
18:36	Apage43	there are places where it's faster to just respond immediately, rather than do the whole async queueing hoopla, especially if its a request that you can fulfill very quickly (don't have to hit network or disk) and without much computation
18:38	Apage43	async handling isn't magic, it's just a way of coordinating work that happens to make a lot of sense if you have lots of things that wait on other things
18:40	wingy	isnt that the case when doing web apps with a database?
18:40	emezeske	I feel like the disadvantages of async I/O aren't mentioned enough
18:40	emezeske	It makes things harder to debug, and opens you up to spaghetti callback code
18:41	emezeske	You can also introduce horrible problems by accidentally doing CPU-intensive work in the worker
18:41	Apage43	++
18:42	Apage43	yeah, there's a lot you have to be careful around
18:42	wingy	emezeske: what if you don't have to mess with callbacks
18:42	emezeske	wingy: All the other things still apply
18:42	technomancy	never thought I'd be so happy to see a proper stack trace after that
18:42	wingy	if you just wrap your functions with an async handler that will take care of putting your return value to the callback (https://github.com/ztellman/aleph/wiki/HTTP)
18:43	emezeske	technomancy: Exactly -- async callstacks are so not helpful
18:43	wingy	so it makes sense to just stick with jetty instead of aleph?
18:43	emezeske	wingy: Unless you have a very specific workload where jetty is just not working out for you? Yes. (IMHO)
18:44	wingy	lets just do that then .. jetty .. you are a damn lucky server
18:44	aperiodic	i get the impression that everybody who uses node.js writes their own idiosyncratic flow control library in order to avoid losing their mind
18:45	emezeske	aperiodic: Yep! Everyone ultimately tries to create a synchronous-looking API on top of the async :)
18:45	Apage43	aperiodic: not everyone, a lot of them have already lost their minds and have become comfortable with it :)
18:45	wingy	everyone is using async.js
18:46	emezeske	aperiodic: haha
18:47	wingy	the fact is that i feel synchronous coding where you don't have to think about server arhictecture is better .. you just focus on the domain problem
18:47	emezeske	wingy: Synchronous code is undoubtedly easier to read.
18:48	Apage43	and reason about
18:48	wingy	screw scaling .. i want a happy life :)
18:49	emezeske	wingy: You can scale both ways
18:53	tomoj	async.js seems way off
18:56	wingy	tomoj: it's whatever node.js needs it to be
18:59	dnolen	ohpauleez: LOGIC-63 resolved
18:59	ohpauleez	dnolen: Excellent, I'll take a look at the ticket now to see the resolution, I'm definitely curious
18:59	dnolen	ohpauleez: typo :P
19:00	ohpauleez	:(
19:00	ohpauleez	dnolen: I apologize
19:00	dnolen	ohpauleez: from copy and pasting Clojure into ClojureScript, -withMeta -> -with-meta
19:00	dnolen	ohpauleez: on LCons deftype
19:00	dnolen	ohpauleez: nah, wasn't obvious
19:00	Sgeo	Why does tryclj allow def and the bots don't?
19:00	ohpauleez	Ahh that makes sense
19:01	dnolen	ohpauleez: thanks for actually trying / using core.logic on CLJS :)
19:01	ohpauleez	dnolen: Thank you for providing me with something to try!
19:06	technomancy	Sgeo: probably because everyone in the channel shares a sandbox with lazybot
19:06	Raynes	Sgeo: Well clojurebot doesn't use clojail, so it has no def sandboxing at all.
19:06	technomancy	whereas tryclj can build the notion of a session
19:06	Raynes	Sgeo: On tryclj, everyone gets their own sandbox. In this channel, everybody shares a single sandbox.
19:06	Raynes	Sgeo: It is entirely possible to make lazybot work like tryclj, I just haven't done it.
19:09	dnolen	ohpauleez: whenever I work on core.logic on CLJS - I realize, CLJS is pretty freaking awesome.
19:10	ohpauleez	dnolen: It really is incredible - the reader, protocols, rich data types, and macros - you can pretty much build anything
19:11	dnolen	ohpauleez: LOGIC-61 resolved
19:11	dnolen	ohpauleez: I think that's it for your CLJS tickets
19:12	ohpauleez	dnolen: Thank you so much, definitely very helpful (I needed partial-map for something)
19:12	dnolen	ohpauleez: partial maps will no longer escape, really meant to be used internally anyway. They always become regular maps when they become a result
19:13	ohpauleez	excellent, that totally works for me
19:39	dnolen	core.logic 0.8.0-beta2 going out
19:40	pandeiro	dnolen: know anything about elm?
19:40	dnolen	pandeiro: yeah I saw a presentation about it at ELC
19:40	dnolen	at StrangeLoop
19:41	pandeiro	just discovered it, some interesting ideas applicable to cljs dev
19:41	technomancy	which one was presented first?
19:42	dnolen	technomancy: Elm was I think
19:42	dnolen	pandeiro: what in particular?
19:42	pandeiro	dnolen: functional reactive programming
19:43	technomancy	elm was the more reactive one, yeah
19:43	technomancy	that was rockin'
19:44	pandeiro	something like Mouse.position always having the cursor's coords, is that really 'functional'?
19:44	pandeiro	i am not interested in paradigm purity, just trying to understand things
19:44	dnolen	pandeiro: it's very interesting I'd like to see much more non-trivial examples though. I also wasn't sold on hiding the details of the platform
19:45	dnolen	pandeiro: my impression was a FP version of Lively Kernel but much less mature.
19:45	pandeiro	dnolen: i am torn on that b/c it seems js can be so low level for a high level language
19:45	pandeiro	the way you have to do things
19:45	pandeiro	the need for jquery
20:06	ohpauleez	To those interested in learning more about ClojureScript+Node.js
20:06	ohpauleez	http://www.pauldee.org/blog/2012/clojurescript-and-node-js-an-experience-report/
20:15	wingy	is there a way to add a key/value pair to a map if the key value pair is inside a list or vector?
20:15	wingy	[key value]
20:16	black_joe	(keyword) will convert data of another type into a key.
20:16	Raynes	Not what he wants.
20:16	wingy	nope
20:17	Raynes	&(apply assoc {:a :b] [:c :d])
20:17	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: ]
20:17	Raynes	&(apply assoc {:a :b} [:c :d])
20:17	lazybot	⇒ {:c :d, :a :b}
20:17	Raynes	wingy: ^
20:17	wingy	(some-fn {} [key value]) ;=> {key value}
20:17	jkkramer	&(conj {:a :b} [:c :d])
20:17	lazybot	⇒ {:c :d, :a :b}
20:18	Raynes	Huh, cool.
20:18	wingy	jkkramer: there you go
20:18	jkkramer	&(conj {:a :b} '(:c :d)) ;but not this
20:18	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry
20:19	wingy	yeah vector only
20:25	Sgeo	Are there any good libraries for making lazy data types and functions to operate on them?
20:32	dnolen	ohpauleez: nice post
20:32	ohpauleez	dnolen: Thanks, I hope people find it useful (and don't mind the bits of passive voice use)
20:34	ivan	does tools.nrepl support any kind of incremental response? I'd like to write command-line tools that don't want for all of stdout before writing something
20:53	Sgeo	When is it appropriate to use get?
20:53	Sgeo	(doc get)
20:53	clojurebot	"([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present."
20:58	ohpauleez	Sgeo: When your key is not a keyword
20:58	ohpauleez	or when your collection can be a number of things (all that support get)
20:58	Sgeo	,({1 2 3 4} 1)
20:58	clojurebot	2
20:59	ohpauleez	,([1 2 3 4] 1 2)
20:59	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: PersistentVector>
20:59	Sgeo	,(get [1 2 3 4] 1 2)
20:59	ohpauleez	,(get [1 2 3 4] 6 2)
20:59	clojurebot	2
20:59	clojurebot	2
21:00	ohpauleez	,(get {"a" 1} "a" 2)
21:00	clojurebot	1
21:00	jamii	I keep getting bitten by this:
21:00	jamii	secd.core> NIL
21:00	jamii	#secd.core.NIL-I{}
21:00	jamii	secd.core> (class NIL)
21:00	jamii	secd.core.NIL-I
21:00	jamii	secd.core> (class #secd.core.NIL-I{})
21:00	jamii	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
21:00	ohpauleez	,(get {"a" 1} "b" 2)
21:00	clojurebot	2
21:00	ohpauleez	Sgeo: does that help?
21:00	Sgeo	Yes
21:01	ohpauleez	excellent
21:01	ohpauleez	jamii: What is it you're trying to do?
21:01	technomancy	Sgeo: OTOH calling the map without get will do the same thing
21:01	technomancy	so get is typically used if the map might be nil
21:01	ohpauleez	jamii: Ohh, nil is lowercase
21:01	technomancy	and you're looking up a non-keyword key
21:02	ohpauleez	yes
21:02	ohpauleez	I use it most in threading macros
21:02	ohpauleez	for that reason
21:02	jamii	ohpauleez: this is a record called NIL. The name is not important. The problem is whenever you use record literals to construct a record that has zero args, the resulting object is a map.
21:02	jamii	ohpauleez: Which breaks protocol dispatch
21:02	amalloy	technomancy: get can probably optimize better than calling the map as well
21:03	gfredericks	what are records that have zero args?
21:03	ohpauleez	jamii: Definitely sounds like a bug to me. Is there any literature against creating Records of zero args?
21:03	gfredericks	(defrecord Foo [] ...)?
21:03	ohpauleez	gfredericks: My thought too
21:03	gfredericks	the point is to have a mappish thing of a custom type, but not caring about any particular fields?
21:04	amalloy	on reflection i don't think that's true actually, never mind
21:04	ohpauleez	jamii: Would you better served with deftype?
21:04	jamii	ohpauleez: deftypes don't have literals at all, so I can't prn and then read them
21:05	ohpauleez	jamii: You could define reader-literals (if you're ok using 1.5.0-beta1)
21:05	ohpauleez	actually - they're in 1.4 too
21:06	jamii	secd.core> (class `~NIL)
21:06	jamii	secd.core.NIL-I
21:06	jamii	secd.core> (class (eval `~NIL))
21:06	jamii	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
21:06	ohpauleez	and if you need the the reader, what's wrong with using nil, which would give you the protocol dispatch
21:07	amalloy	jamii: `~x is always identical to x
21:07	jamii	amalloy: ok, so this is the core of the problem
21:07	jamii	secd.core> NIL
21:07	jamii	#secd.core.NIL-I{}
21:07	jamii	secd.core> (eval NIL)
21:07	jamii	{}
21:08	jamii	Compared to:
21:08	jamii	secd.core> (SEL 't 'f)
21:08	jamii	#secd.core.SEL-I{:then t, :else f}
21:08	jamii	secd.core> (eval (SEL 't 'f))
21:08	jamii	#secd.core.SEL-I{:then t, :else f}
21:08	jamii	Records with zero args eval to maps, not themselves
21:08	amalloy	why are you calling eval on a defrecord? like, agreed it probably shouldn't behave this way, but...
21:08	gfredericks	record literals in the code get eval'd right?
21:09	jamii	amalloy: I'm splicing a record into a macro. Then trying to figure out why the result has a map in it.
21:10	jamii	amalloy: https://www.refheap.com/paste/6177
21:12	jamii	I think record literals with zero args are broken and splicing in macros is just one of the places it shows up
21:13	gfredericks	jamii: this isn't actually a blocker for you, right? you could emit a call to the constructor instead?
21:13	amalloy	well '(run NIL empty-registers) isn't the same as `(run ~NIL ~x), it's the same as `(run ~'NIL ~x)
21:13	jamii	gfredericks: I'm just playing around anyway so its not blocking anything important.
21:14	jamii	amalloy: ok, say we do this the other way around
21:15	jamii	amalloy: huh, thats interesting - this actually works
21:16	jamii	https://www.refheap.com/paste/6178
21:17	jamii	But this doesn't: https://www.refheap.com/paste/6179
21:17	Sgeo	I should set up an IRC bot based on .... a UMLbox bot in another channel
21:17	Sgeo	Would be nice to have a Clojure bot where defmacro works
21:17	amalloy	of course. in the first, instr is the symbol NIL, and in the other it's the value of NIL in your namespace
21:18	amalloy	you want the symbol, not the value, so what happens when you eval a record shouldn't be relevant to you
21:18	jamii	amalloy: Right. Except I am actually using eval at runtime.... :)
21:19	jamii	amalloy: Ok, so what I'm actually trying to probably do doesn't make much sense and I'm not at all blocked on this. I'm just trying to verify that the eval behaviour is wrong.
21:19	amalloy	looks wrong to me
21:19	jamii	amalloy: ok
21:19	jamii	So I'm sane
21:19	jamii	Huzzah
21:20	jamii	amalloy: the code that ran into this was (eval `(fn [registers#] (run ~(vary-meta form assoc :tag (class form)) registers#)))
21:20	jamii	amalloy: Since I have to run those instructions a couple of thousand times I was wondering if it would be faster to replace them by a clojure where the dispatch was already known
21:21	jamii	amalloy: But it doesn't work because the zero-arg instructions eval to {} in the above
21:21	Sgeo	o.O eval is broken?
21:21	jamii	Sgeo: I think so? Records should probably eval to themselves
21:24	jamii	Aha - http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1093
21:25	jamii	Workaround - (eval (assoc NIL :dummy nil))
21:34	wingy	is it possible to use clojure to make android apps?
21:35	Raynes	Yes.
21:36	Raynes	https://github.com/alexander-yakushev/lein-droid
21:36	wingy	thx
21:47	tbaldridge	so, I'm trying to install the clojure-starter-kit for emacs 24.2 on osx (in terminal mode)
21:47	tbaldridge	for some reason it's not doing anything at all
21:47	tbaldridge	I'm doing this: https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/master/README.md
21:48	tbaldridge	but emacs complains that "clojure-mode is not available for install"
21:48	tbaldridge	any ideas?
21:52	tbaldridge	so for the logs...aparently it's M-x package-install starter-kit
22:39	Sgeo	Oh hey, Clojure Conj is in NYC?
22:40	Sgeo	Oh, it differs every year. Darn.
22:42	TimMc	Has it ever been in NYC?
22:44	amalloy	no
22:44	TimMc	That's what I thought.
22:45	Sgeo	Hmm, what is http://www.meetup.com/Clojure-NYC/events/16166984/
22:54	ToBeReplaced	what does "Core was generated by `java -client -XX:+TieredCompilation -Xbootclasspath/a:/home/ToBeReplaced/.lein/'" mean?
22:55	TimMc	Sgeo: "NYC Clojure Users Group" - "Clojure Conj 2011 Roundup"
22:55	TimMc	Deviously misleading title, I'll agree.
22:56	Sgeo	Oh.
22:56	Sgeo	Well, hey, at least I learned there's an NYC Clojure users group
22:56	Sgeo	Wonder if I should try going