2012-10-17
| 00:16 | xeqi | hmm, that sounds like a fun lazybot challenge |
| 00:31 | Raynes | xeqi: What? |
| 00:31 | Raynes | Man, he already looks like Golum. |
| 00:33 | xeqi | forcing memory usage |
| 00:34 | xeqi | though it just leads to not allowing others to use it, so not very nice |
| 00:34 | xeqi | * it would |
| 01:28 | AtKaaZ | ,'hi wingy |
| 01:28 | clojurebot | hi |
| 01:28 | wingy | AtKaaZ: hi wazzup? |
| 01:28 | AtKaaZ | not much, bidding my time thru some datomic docs |
| 01:29 | AtKaaZ | s/dd/d/ |
| 01:39 | wingy | i still need to watch database as a value by rich |
| 01:46 | AtKaaZ | wingy: you mean this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKdV1IgAaFc I didn't finish watching it, I don't understand what he means about the monkey |
| 01:47 | wingy | its the same topic .. i was referring to this one |
| 01:47 | wingy | http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Datomic-Database-Value |
| 01:47 | wingy | yeah must be something that we missed |
| 01:48 | AtKaaZ | he either talked about it before, or it's common knowledge between devs :) |
| 01:48 | wingy | but i can get the concept he is talking about |
| 01:48 | wingy | seems like its something they talked about |
| 01:50 | arrdem | has anyone now present actually used that DB system? I'm really curious about it. |
| 01:53 | ForSpareParts | Do you guys know of any clojure-native physics libraries? |
| 01:54 | ForSpareParts | There's a bunch of Java stuff, but I was hoping there might be something out there that leverages immutable data structures. |
| 02:35 | wingy | anyone here who has used https://github.com/clojure/data.xml and http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.xml and can give some thoughts about which one i should use |
| 02:35 | wingy | for reading and writing xml .. seems that both are capable of doing so |
| 02:38 | wingy | https://github.com/clojure/data.xml seems more powerful |
| 02:38 | wingy | and there is also https://github.com/clojure/data.json |
| 02:38 | wingy | nice fit |
| 02:53 | muhoo | cheshire too |
| 02:54 | wingy | i need some help |
| 02:54 | wingy | with retrieving a specific key of a parsed xml string |
| 02:54 | wingy | https://gist.github.com/3904073 |
| 02:55 | wingy | muhoo: yeah .. why so many different json and xml parsers :) |
| 02:55 | muhoo | oh this xml tag nonsense? i had to do this recently. hmm, let me see |
| 02:56 | muhoo | i used map, filter, and reduce |
| 02:56 | amalloy | i think there's something in clojure.xml or clojure.zip that makes nested access not awful |
| 02:56 | amalloy | muhoo: reduce???? |
| 02:56 | muhoo | amalloy: yes, to stuff them into a map in a different format |
| 02:57 | muhoo | (reduce #(assoc %1 %2 (get-tag %2 m) {} [:tag1 :tag2 :tag3])) or something, i don't recall |
| 02:57 | amalloy | (->> m (:content) (filter (comp #{:expectedfields} :tag)) (first) (:content) (filter (comp #{:us_name} :tag)) (first) (:content))) |
| 02:57 | amalloy | muhoo: reduce/assoc is almost always ebtter as into/for |
| 02:58 | muhoo | wingy: what amalloy said |
| 02:58 | muhoo | god DAMN i knew amalloy would just crush it |
| 02:58 | amalloy | well that's really an awful solution. you want to abstract that out |
| 02:59 | wingy | perhaps i should have a look at zip |
| 02:59 | muhoo | yeah, but for a 1-liner in 30 seconds to illustrate the solution, that's sweet |
| 02:59 | amalloy | (into {} (for [tag [:t1 :t2 :t3]] [tag (get-tag tag m)])) is the right way to do your reduce/assoc, muhoo |
| 02:59 | muhoo | amalloy: thanks |
| 02:59 | amalloy | i <3 into/for so much |
| 03:00 | amalloy | so much that words turn into curious glyphs when i try to speak about it |
| 03:00 | muhoo | funny, i used for a lot when i first started clojure, coming from python. after a while, i abandoned it, and started using map/reduce instead |
| 03:00 | aperiodic | it's grown on me quite a lot |
| 03:01 | aperiodic | one thing i hope somebody puts together w/codeq is some sort of visualization of the functions/macros i'm using the most changing over time |
| 03:01 | amalloy | if i ever write `(map #(` it's like...waiiit a minute, amalloy, put the knife down, nobody has to get hurt |
| 03:02 | amalloy | every so often i decide it's actually what i want, but it's a huge warning sign |
| 03:03 | wingy | :s |
| 03:03 | wingy | so difficult to get |
| 03:03 | wingy | the zip thing |
| 03:03 | aperiodic | yeah, if you're using an anonymous function literal as the map fn, it'll probably read nicer as a for |
| 03:05 | muhoo | good point |
| 03:05 | amalloy | wingy: i don't think zip is very useful for you |
| 03:05 | wingy | amalloy: could we sum it up , what should i use to traverse it? |
| 03:05 | amalloy | you just need a function that's like (first-tag-named m tag-name) |
| 03:06 | amalloy | and then the ->> i did is nicer |
| 03:06 | amalloy | (defn first-tag-named [m tag-name] (first (filter (comp #{:tag-name} :tag)))) |
| 03:07 | wingy | amalloy: btw the :content in the example is a list? |
| 03:07 | amalloy | (->> m :content (first-named :expectedfields) :content (first-named :us_name) :content) |
| 03:08 | wingy | i see |
| 03:09 | amalloy | then maybe write get-in-xml |
| 03:09 | amalloy | which does that silliness when you write (get-in-xml m [:expected-fields :us_name]) |
| 03:10 | muhoo | that's what my get-tag function did |
| 03:11 | fredyr | btw wouldn't the hiccup style representation of the xml be easier to use for traversing? |
| 03:11 | amalloy | fredyr: only a little |
| 03:11 | amalloy | and maybe not even that |
| 03:12 | muhoo | afaict there's no non-ugly way to deal with xml |
| 03:12 | fredyr | it's a bit friendlier to the eyes imo at least |
| 03:13 | amalloy | fredyr: so? try writing that function to operate on hiccup |
| 03:13 | amalloy | it's actually harder |
| 03:14 | amalloy | muhoo: the java folks would probably use http://static.springsource.org/spring/docs/2.5.x/api/org/springframework/aop/framework/AbstractSingletonProxyFactoryBean.html |
| 03:14 | muhoo | hahaha |
| 03:14 | fredyr | :) |
| 03:14 | amalloy | and if you find that name so horrible that you want similar, made-up joke names: http://www.classnamer.com/ |
| 03:14 | muhoo | i am right now procrastinating from dealing with an insane java bureaucracy to get a dialog to pass data back and forth to the main activity in android |
| 03:14 | fredyr | sorry amalloy i'm not arguing against your suggestion, just saying that i found the hiccup rep less noisy |
| 03:15 | amalloy | fredyr: i agree that the hiccup representation looks nicer, and i like using it to write xml |
| 03:15 | amalloy | but it's not a convenient format for processing xml |
| 03:15 | muhoo | amalloy: that is by far the best java function name i've ever seen. thank for that. |
| 03:15 | aperiodic | oh wow, that fake javadoc is right on the money |
| 03:16 | amalloy | aperiodic: not fake at all. you'd think so, but no |
| 03:16 | amalloy | it is a real class that is (was?) included in a real, recent version of a real project |
| 03:16 | muhoo | the onion couldn't have made something up that good |
| 03:17 | abp | Hi, has anyone tried to get some autocomplete working in clojurescript? |
| 03:18 | aperiodic | i thought HBase's WritableByteArrayComparable was bad |
| 03:18 | amalloy | aperiodic: https://twitter.com/ftrain/status/242597696949604352 |
| 03:19 | abp | I would prefer using jquery-ui autocomplete, because I had a similiar requirement in terms of usage in another js-project, so I could grab the configuration from there once I got it working in cljs. |
| 03:20 | amalloy | i actually thought WriteableByteArrayComparable was a reasonable interface when i was doing cassandra or hadoop or whatever project wanted it |
| 03:21 | aperiodic | it actually does make sense, but i've found one invariably has a gut-level repulsion towards it on first encounter |
| 03:23 | aperiodic | i think it's because it's half adjectives |
| 03:25 | muhoo | let's name a class for all the interfaces it supports |
| 03:28 | aperiodic | it seems that way, but it's just an interface for things you can compare writable byte arrays to |
| 03:56 | tomoj | nrepl-set-ns does what I always wanted slime-repl-set-package to do :) |
| 03:56 | tomoj | and it's easier to type.. |
| 03:57 | tomoj | and jumping works! hurray |
| 03:57 | ejackson | tomoj: you on linux ? |
| 03:58 | hoeck1 | tomoj: haven't looked at nrepl.el for a while, can you use it productively now, as a full slime replacement? |
| 03:59 | tomoj | ejackson: yeah |
| 03:59 | tomoj | I dunno, I just tried again |
| 04:00 | tomoj | I don't have paredit in the repl |
| 04:00 | tomoj | but I spent.. years.. that way before |
| 04:00 | tomoj | maybe I can deal with it :( |
| 04:00 | ejackson | hoeck1: I'm using it full time to good effect |
| 04:01 | ejackson | tomoj: are you using any autocomplete ? |
| 04:01 | hoeck1 | ejackson: cool, last time, nrepl (the server) and overtone had still issues with, so I kept using slime |
| 04:02 | tomoj | autocomplete in repl doesn't work yet, hmm |
| 04:02 | tomoj | wow, the completion that works in a file buffer is not at all what I want |
| 04:03 | ejackson | yeah, I've been struggling a bit. What happens if you type a java package like thing: com.tomoj.package ? |
| 04:03 | tomoj | hmm, maybe it is |
| 04:03 | tomoj | actually yeah, that's better |
| 04:04 | tomoj | I think |
| 04:04 | tomoj | ouch |
| 04:05 | tomoj | java packages seem to tab complete ok, I think |
| 04:05 | ejackson | hoeck1: i think samaaron has fixed it all up :) |
| 04:05 | tomoj | except it adds a space at the end |
| 04:05 | tomoj | tab completing namespaces adds a space, which seems silly |
| 04:05 | ejackson | yeah, and what happens if the package is not found ? On my end it exceptions |
| 04:06 | tomoj | and completing at "la.tomoj.ns/" throws a nasty error |
| 04:06 | tomoj | I just get 'no match' |
| 04:08 | tomoj | guess it's good enough to keep trying |
| 04:12 | hyPiRion | yeah, nrepl is kind of nasty in that regard |
| 04:12 | hyPiRion | It's getting better, though. |
| 04:15 | ejackson | tomoj, ok. I get a focus stealing exception and stacktrace ! Trying to fix it now. |
| 04:15 | ejackson | otherwise I'm finding the whole thing great |
| 04:30 | Raynes | ejackson: Oh man, you're talking at the conj? Ugh, I'll refund my donation. No way I can go and listen to that accent for 40 minutes. |
| 04:31 | Raynes | I'm just kidding, I can't deny my love for your accent. It's the whole reason I'm going. If all of the talks except for yours didn't happen, I'd still come away happy. |
| 04:33 | clgv | Raynes: got your founding complete, already? |
| 04:33 | Raynes | Yessir. |
| 04:34 | clgv | uh, that was pretty fast |
| 04:34 | Raynes | It took around… 16 hours? |
| 04:34 | clgv | you probably have to dance ;) |
| 04:34 | Raynes | See the footnote. |
| 04:34 | clgv | yeah, read it. just joking around |
| 04:35 | Raynes | This community is awesome. |
| 04:35 | Raynes | This is my second trip to the conj fully funded without me doing much of anything. |
| 04:35 | Raynes | Except being relatively poor. :p |
| 04:36 | clgv | the clojure community seems to be a very social environment in our capitalism world ;) |
| 04:36 | Raynes | Now I just hope I can get the money out of paypal and into my bank account before the planes leave. |
| 04:36 | Raynes | Paypal horror stories scare me. I wish I could have found something else for donations, but it was all such short notice. |
| 04:37 | clgv | well you got at least 3 weeks, I guess |
| 04:39 | kral | namaste |
| 04:39 | Raynes | aloha |
| 04:43 | mindbender1 | what's all this talk I hear of nrepl acting up for some. I have been totally enjoying a wonderful time doing autocomplete with nrepl.el, switching to cljs repl and back seemlessly from nrepl.el |
| 04:43 | antares_ | Raynes: congrats about hitting the goal |
| 04:44 | Raynes | antares_: Thanks! |
| 04:45 | ejackson | Raynes: cheeky bastard ! |
| 04:46 | ejackson | Raynes: BTW I'm super pleased you got the funding sorted - no way the Conj would be the same w/o you there |
| 04:46 | Raynes | <3 |
| 04:46 | AWizzArd | Were there some changes in Clojure 1.5.0-alpha5 with respect to the -main method? With alpha4 it compiles nicely, but with alphas 5-7 it doesn't. Could it have to do with swank missing support? |
| 04:47 | AWizzArd | Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException, compiling:(swank/commands/basic.clj:182:25) |
| 04:48 | ejackson | Raynes: actually putting this talk together is winding me a bit. Its quite hard to think of something to say that is worth saying to that crowd. You know, like, they're all going to know anyting I say already :) |
| 04:48 | Raynes | People don't notice. |
| 04:49 | Raynes | My entire talk was a code reading. I probably could have just showed the code and everyone would have known what was going on. I just made jokes about flatten and everybody seemed happy. |
| 04:50 | ejackson | yeah, I remember you had a lolcat or two - may follow your lead :) |
| 04:51 | Raynes | I had one of those every other slide, dude. |
| 05:29 | muhoo | Raynes: could be worse, you could be using bitcoin |
| 05:30 | muhoo | actually i'm told stripe and dwolla are better than paypal, but i haven't used them yet |
| 05:30 | tomoj | bitcoin would be worse? |
| 05:30 | tomoj | well, guess it'd be hard to pay for the flight |
| 05:31 | muhoo | trying to get money in and out of it. |
| 05:32 | muhoo | i'll be using clojure and cljs to do a bitcoin interface for a guy soon. not that interested in bitcoin but it's an excuse to use clojure |
| 05:32 | tomoj | you might get someone to give you dwolla in #bitcoin-otc, but if paypal screws you, you're just screwed |
| 05:32 | tomoj | of course dwolla is scary too :( |
| 05:32 | muhoo | and i'm getting paid in bitcoin, so i get to figure out how to exchange that for real money. it's a PITA |
| 05:32 | tomoj | using gloss? |
| 05:33 | muhoo | naw, just json to bitcoind |
| 05:33 | muhoo | cheshire :-) |
| 05:33 | tomoj | I see |
| 05:33 | muhoo | but implementing the protocol using gloss/aleph would be fun too |
| 05:33 | wei_ | have you heard of coinbase? might be useful to check out |
| 05:34 | muhoo | there are a bunch of those, yes |
| 05:34 | tomoj | I just found 364 lines of code towards a bitcoin clojure library |
| 05:34 | muhoo | really? where? |
| 05:34 | tomoj | haven't touched it since march :( |
| 05:34 | tomoj | sitting on my disk |
| 05:35 | muhoo | hahaa |
| 05:35 | muhoo | well if you want to stuff it onto github, maybe it'll get picked up |
| 05:39 | muhoo | wei_: i did try to convince him to use a commercial service like coinbase, but no, he wants his own server, and his own web ui. |
| 05:39 | Raynes | muhoo: Careful, muhoo, you just told him you'd maintain his project. |
| 05:39 | Raynes | Now he'll expect things of you. |
| 05:39 | muhoo | i said nothing of the sort. |
| 05:39 | muhoo | read the transcript :-) |
| 05:39 | tomoj | needs updating for latest bitcoin, maybe gloss |
| 05:39 | Raynes | In so many words. |
| 05:39 | tomoj | and it has no docs |
| 05:40 | Raynes | Sounds like conch.sh. |
| 05:40 | tomoj | I think I can do that within a month or so and publish it after I confirm that it actually works |
| 05:41 | muhoo | cool. for what i'm doing, i'll have to stick with bitcoind and json, but it'd be interesting to see a native clj implementation. |
| 05:41 | tomoj | also, datomic.. |
| 05:42 | muhoo | it uses datomic? |
| 05:43 | tomoj | no |
| 05:43 | tomoj | I just started playing with datomic |
| 05:43 | tomoj | but I think it could be interestin |
| 05:49 | muhoo | i noticed an isomorphism in clojure immutability, couchdb, git, and bitcoin. |
| 05:50 | muhoo | and datomic |
| 05:51 | muhoo | there's a kind of common thread through all of them. |
| 05:52 | tomoj | was it you who wrote that blog post? |
| 05:53 | tomoj | couchdb, though? |
| 05:53 | tomoj | its implementation? |
| 05:54 | tomoj | I've wondered if couchdb has the properties necessary for datomic storage |
| 05:59 | abp | Meanwhile, got my jquery-ui autocomplete working. It actually wasn't very hard. |
| 05:59 | abp | With Clojurescript. |
| 06:09 | tomoj | shouldn't vars be named? |
| 06:13 | edlich | They should. |
| 06:15 | ddeaguiar | wow, just installed the emacs-live config. really like it. |
| 06:16 | ejackson | ddeaguiar: yeah samaaron should get a medal for that. Its hyper useful. |
| 06:17 | ddeaguiar | ejackson: no kidding. I've gone through various permutations of emacs configs for working with clojure and think I've found the winner for me. |
| 06:43 | clgv | is there a cheat sheet for emacs and slime (not specialized on clojure)? |
| 06:44 | ejackson | clgv... yes... i have printout on my desk |
| 06:44 | clgv | ejackson: you got a link for me? |
| 06:45 | ejackson | right next to the paredit one :) |
| 06:45 | ejackson | clgv.... looking |
| 06:46 | ejackson | http://www.pchristensen.com/slimecommands.pdf |
| 06:46 | clgv | ejackson: thx. looks good |
| 06:49 | pyykkis | ejackson: would you happen to have a link to paredit cheatsheet also? :) |
| 06:49 | ejackson | hehehe LMGTFY :) |
| 06:49 | ejackson | http://emacswiki.org/emacs/PareditCheatsheet |
| 06:49 | clgv | awesome |
| 06:50 | clgv | right I need paredit. does that ship with emacs or do I need to install that separately? |
| 06:51 | pyykkis | d'oh. :D Thanks a lot ejackson. :) |
| 06:51 | ejackson | np |
| 07:03 | clgv | will .emacs still be executed when I add an .emacs.d/init.el ? |
| 07:06 | hyPiRion | clgv: I don't think so, unless you manually load it from init.el |
| 07:06 | hyPiRion | But it depends on what it checks first, I guess. |
| 07:06 | clgv | I already hate editing all those files ;) |
| 07:07 | ejackson | if you use samaaron's emacs live you can edit your own 'pack' that plays nicely with everything else |
| 07:09 | clgv | so to be safe I move the stuff from .emacs to .emacs.d/init.el? |
| 07:10 | AtKaaZ | cmdrdats, welcome |
| 07:11 | cmdrdats | hey :) |
| 07:11 | Raynes | $lmgtfy paredit cheatsheet |
| 07:11 | lazybot | http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=paredit+cheatsheet |
| 07:12 | Raynes | ejackson: ^ |
| 07:13 | ejackson | lol |
| 07:13 | mindbender1 | technomancy: is it possible to get a cljs repl from a standalone clj repl |
| 07:15 | AtKaaZ | cmdrdats, good stuff there with clj-minecraft and clj-memorystone |
| 07:20 | cmdrdats | thanks - i need to get back onto it sometime |
| 07:20 | cmdrdats | atkaaz: the craftbukkit guys have changed a ton of api's since I've done work it, so going to be a bit of a learning curve :P |
| 07:21 | AtKaaZ | I'm checking fightingsail |
| 07:21 | AtKaaZ | yeah it was tough but I learned some, still new to clojure though |
| 07:25 | AWizzArd | I already found the nrepl.el emacs support, but didn’t see what Leiningen plugin is needed to start an nrepl server from the shell. |
| 07:26 | ejackson | AWizzArd: i think for lein2 just doing lein repl brings up nrepl with a random port number to attach to |
| 07:31 | antares_ | AWizzArd: lein repl :headless or just lein repl starts an nREPL server |
| 07:35 | AWizzArd | ok, will try that, thanks you two |
| 07:40 | cmdrdats | atkaaz: nice - fightingsail is no more than a skeleton though, but at least it sets up a 3d environment :) |
| 07:41 | AtKaaZ | cmdrdats, I saw jme3, but some deps fail to resolve, maybe they removed jogl from maven or something |
| 07:45 | AtKaaZ | works even so :) |
| 07:45 | cmdrdats | atkaaz: curious - I'm amazed it works with broken deps |
| 07:45 | AtKaaZ | yep about 4 of them |
| 07:46 | AtKaaZ | I looked are repos like this: http://dev.nightlabs.org/maven-repository/repo/com/jme3/oggd/3.0.0-SNAPSHOT/ |
| 07:46 | AtKaaZ | but no .jar there |
| 07:47 | AtKaaZ | i see two cubes which aren't cubes cubes, rectangular cubes? |
| 07:48 | AtKaaZ | on like an island |
| 07:49 | antares_ | AtKaaZ: you can use search on search.maven.org and oss.sonatype.org. Note that it may be that Maven Central is having an issue and returning 404s, it happens every so often. |
| 07:51 | AtKaaZ | thanks antares_, already found two on sonatype, ogg and vorbis |
| 07:55 | cmdrdats | atkaaz: yep, that's as far as I got with fightingsail, i'm afraid |
| 07:55 | cmdrdats | then i got stuck trying to get the water to work, then distracted with work :P |
| 07:56 | AtKaaZ | i noticed that the ones I found were already below lol |
| 07:56 | AtKaaZ | well it works now, at least doesn't complain about ogg missing:) |
| 07:56 | cmdrdats | nice :) |
| 07:56 | Apage43 | bluhr |
| 07:56 | Apage43 | using clojure.data.xml |
| 07:57 | Apage43 | there's not a way to prevent it from downloading the same DTD over and over when parsing lots of similar xml files |
| 08:22 | edlich | One question please: if I need to capture the state |
| 08:23 | edlich | of a chessprogram (board, rochade, etc.) in between the moves. |
| 08:23 | edlich | What should I take in cloujure? |
| 08:23 | edlich | (just one thread here, Alpha-Beta search comes later with safe datatypes) |
| 08:23 | edlich | def var and change value with alter-var-root? |
| 08:23 | edlich | But "vars are fundamentally intended to hold constant values" (Emrick, Carper,Grand) But Refs Atoms & Agents look like overkill because no thread-magic happens here. |
| 08:24 | clgv | edlich: you can use an atom if you have only one thread anyway |
| 08:25 | hyPiRion | edlich: The best would be to have a function which takes in the former state and an action, and then returns the new state |
| 08:25 | hyPiRion | You could then recurse over it by e.g. reduce. |
| 08:25 | clgv | hyPiRion: `iterate` even ^^ |
| 08:25 | antares_ | edlich: just use an atom, it is blazing fast when there is no contention (e.g. with just 1 thread) |
| 08:26 | hyPiRion | clgv: Yeah, even iterate. |
| 08:26 | edlich | even if the synchronous stuff is not needed. ok. |
| 08:26 | antares_ | edlich: for async updates you can use an agent |
| 08:26 | antares_ | but for chessboard state you probably won't ever care about performance characteristics of the two |
| 08:26 | antares_ | so just use an atom, it is dead easy to reason about |
| 08:27 | edlich | yes performance comes in another modele |
| 08:27 | edlich | module |
| 08:27 | clgv | edlich: I am not quite sure if there is any problem at all where alter-var-root is encouraged (except for "robert.hooke") |
| 08:28 | edlich | @hyRiPiRion I also thought about no state but let the (shit) rotate in a loop while getting the new move... ;-) |
| 08:30 | edlich | So atoms, agents and no state at all has to be tested... |
| 08:34 | edlich | So thanks all! |
| 08:44 | hyPiRion | edlich: it's more work to think without state, yeah :p |
| 08:45 | alexander__b | is it possible/neat to use clojure on android? |
| 08:45 | alexander__b | and if so, are there any good guides for complete android newbies that just don't like java? heh |
| 08:46 | alexander__b | I just set up an emulator and the SDK with an API and src. that's all of my android knowledge. I have a vague understanding of the underlying principles, with activities, views, etc. I just... don't want to use java. |
| 08:47 | antares_ | alexander__b: http://clojure-android.blogspot.com/, http://www.deepbluelambda.org/programming/clojure/creating-android-applications-with-clojure. I don't know how much easier it is in the end but some people do it. |
| 08:47 | alexander__b | thanks |
| 08:49 | edlich | hyPiRion: yes. But it's the more fascinating perfect solution. I think it can work. Because I can always replay all moves! (Arena chess sends the entire line on each move) |
| 09:16 | edlich | :sthubner Did you wrote me yesterday about euroclojure? |
| 09:27 | babilen | Hi there. XML processing in Clojure (clojure.data.zip.xml et al.) is breaking my head. I am trying to parse https://www.refheap.com/paste/5938 and get a sequence such as ((("en" "foo") ("sv" "føø")) (("en" "bar") ("zh" "bar"))) -- I can access the content and even the attribute, but I have no idea how to get hold of the tags. Any hint would be appreciated. |
| 09:29 | antares_ | babilen: you can use jsoup directly for XML if you find data.xml or zippers too painful. that's what I do. |
| 09:29 | antares_ | jsoup.org |
| 09:30 | duck1123 | I've found that XOM is fairly easy to use from Clojure |
| 09:31 | ejackson | babilen: i've used enlive well for this |
| 09:31 | babilen | antares_: I happily use c.data.zip.xml if I know which tag (sequence) I am after. I am just not sure how to formulate something like "all (tag, content) tuples of all children of tag page" or something like that. |
| 09:32 | babilen | ejackson: Yeah, I was thinking about enlive, but that is yet another dependency for something that should (IMHO) be really easy. |
| 09:32 | mklappstuhl | hey there |
| 09:32 | babilen | Thanks for the tips though and I'll take a look at jsoup, XOM and enlive for that. |
| 09:34 | duck1123 | XOM is probably only worth it if you need ns support, the other options are probably a better fit for your usecase |
| 09:35 | duck1123 | still, it does handle XPath well enough that it would make parsing that doc pretty easy |
| 09:39 | babilen | I'll take a look at enlive. Bit sad that I'll probably spend the next 2 hours learning it before I can tackle the problem at hand. But well, guess that is OK. |
| 09:41 | algernon | babilen: enlive is fairly straightforward, imo. if you want all (tag, content), that's pretty much [:.tag] (do-what-you-want-with-it) in a defsnippet. |
| 09:43 | babilen | algernon: Yeah, I have the impression that learning enlive will pay off and I am sure that the solution will be quite easy in the end. I just haven't used it before and therefore have to start from the beginning. But thanks for the heads up! |
| 09:45 | Cheiron | Hi, what is the difference between assoc-in and update-in? |
| 09:46 | ejackson | Cheiron: update in calls a function f on the element, assoc-in just assocs a new value |
| 09:46 | babilen | Cheiron: The latter takes a function |
| 09:46 | Cheiron | but the final output should be the same? |
| 09:47 | ejackson | ,(update-in {:a 1} [:a] inc) |
| 09:47 | clojurebot | {:a 2} |
| 09:48 | antares_ | ,(assoc-in {:a 1} [:a] 100) |
| 09:48 | clojurebot | {:a 100} |
| 09:48 | antares_ | Cheiron: it depends on what function you pass in. If the new value depends on the old one, use update-in. If it's just an arbitrary value, use assoc-in. |
| 09:49 | _ulises | quick question: isn't nrepl-jack-in supposed to ask me where my project directory is? |
| 09:51 | ejackson | _ulises: i always just get it to infer it from the currently active buffer |
| 09:51 | _ulises | ejackson: ah, interesting |
| 09:51 | _ulises | ejackson: I was under the impression that if it couldn't infer then it'd ask you |
| 09:52 | ejackson | perhaps you have a project.clj in your root dir ? :P |
| 09:54 | _ulises | ejackson: no, that's not the case |
| 09:54 | _ulises | ejackson: I recently migrated; I must've broken something |
| 09:54 | _ulises | ejackson: and not read the docs properly, of course. |
| 09:54 | ejackson | i don't know how it works really, to be honest :) |
| 09:54 | ejackson | always do the thing that works... and carry on. |
| 09:58 | _ulises | ejackson: yeah, slime worked for me and then I decided to migrate :'( |
| 09:58 | _ulises | ejackson: no worries and thanks anyway |
| 09:58 | ejackson | what isn't working |
| 09:58 | ejackson | there are a couple of options |
| 09:59 | ejackson | if you open the pom.xml you want, and then m-x nrepl-jack-in it should work |
| 09:59 | ejackson | or if you run lein repl from the cmd line, you can then connect to that nrepl from emacs with m-x nrepl |
| 10:04 | _ulises | ejackson: now it all works; I had a stale nrepl server running who knows where. I've killed it and jacked-in from a buffer in my project and the world is again a safe place. Thanks! |
| 10:05 | ejackson | good to hear |
| 10:13 | goracio | hi are there any syntax checker for clojure ? was seeking mistake half an hour - i use sublime and loaded project to eclipse with clojure plugin eclipse didn't complaint about mistake |
| 10:14 | goracio | or maybe this is not mistake ? (ns ... (testpro.models.replies as mrepl) no : before as |
| 10:14 | nDuff | goracio: There are some static-checking tools available. |
| 10:14 | nDuff | ...and yes, that's not a mistake; it has a valid meaning. |
| 10:15 | AtKaaZ | what does it mean? |
| 10:15 | scriptor | as the error says, it should be :as instead of as |
| 10:15 | goracio | error says that there is no file |
| 10:15 | goracio | nothing about : |
| 10:15 | mklappstuhl | I'm given a task to develop a server with simple domain logic (mainly storage & rest stuff) and I'd like to avoid java (which is used on the desktop side of this project) ... my experience in clojure is not very high, nontheless I'd like to have some good arguments in the java vs. clojure debate |
| 10:15 | nDuff | Yes, it's trying to use testpro.models.replies.as |
| 10:15 | nDuff | which isn't what they want, but _is_ syntactically valid. |
| 10:16 | AtKaaZ | sweet haha |
| 10:16 | babilen | algernon: Hmm, I don't quite understand your example. I am trying to *extract* information from the XML file I pasted earlier and I don't know which tags will be used as children to <page>. I want to extract all children of <page> and get (tag, content) tuple. |
| 10:16 | scriptor | ah, you still need to add a colon before the `as` though |
| 10:16 | nDuff | scriptor: Only if you want it to be treated as a keyword rather than an instruction to load something named "as". :) |
| 10:16 | AWizzArd | I am using nrepl now for the first time. Instead of sseeing docstrings I get this error message: „eldoc error: (error No buffer named *nrepl-connection*)”. In the shell I did a „lein repl :headless” and connected to it. In my emacs config I added „(add-hook 'nrepl-interaction-mode-hook 'nrepl-turn-on-eldoc-mode)”. Ideas? |
| 10:16 | AtKaaZ | I'll add that to my list, thanks goracio:) |
| 10:16 | goracio | so no checker could tell that this is a mistake ? |
| 10:16 | babilen | algernon: I've started playing with enlive but haven't (yet) found a way to get the (tag, content) pair of all children of a location |
| 10:16 | jkkramer | ns is notoriously tricky for newcomers. best to read and absorb the docs carefully. ##(doc ns) |
| 10:16 | lazybot | ⇒ "Macro ([name docstring? attr-map? references*]); Sets *ns* to the namespace named by name (unevaluated), creating it if needed. references can be zero or more of: (:refer-clojure ...) (:require ...) (:use ...) (:import ...) (:load ...) (:gen-class) with the syn... https://www.refheap.com/paste/5940 |
| 10:17 | nDuff | goracio: it could be detected as a warning, but not a 100% error |
| 10:17 | babilen | algernon: And it looks as if defsnippet is used in the context of generation rather than scraping. |
| 10:17 | goracio | nDuff: from where as a warning ? |
| 10:17 | scriptor | goracio: because it's still valid clojure code |
| 10:17 | nDuff | goracio: I didn't say anything detects it as a warning _now_. |
| 10:17 | nDuff | goracio: ...but there is at least one static checker available. |
| 10:17 | goracio | lein check also give no warning only file not found mistake |
| 10:18 | nDuff | goracio: see https://github.com/jonase/kibit |
| 10:18 | algernon | babilen: ah, right. yes, defsnippet is generation. (I mostly used enlive for that, let me refresh my memory) |
| 10:18 | nDuff | goracio: ...but again, I'm not asserting that it actually throws a warning, just saying it _could_ if someone chose to add it. |
| 10:18 | scriptor | hmm, where is the source for lein check? |
| 10:18 | goracio | nDuff:will check that |
| 10:19 | goracio | scriptor: what you mean ? |
| 10:19 | nDuff | goracio: ...if you care about that particular case being supported, by all means submit a patch to kibit adding it. |
| 10:19 | scriptor | goracio: sorry, wasn't directed at you, just wondering in general |
| 10:20 | scriptor | it'd be interesting to see how easy it'd be to add a warning for that to lein check, although I probably don't know enough clojure to do that |
| 10:20 | scriptor | or to kibit, for that matter |
| 10:20 | ohpauleez | I or Jonas will approve all good patches for kibit rules - we certainly welcome them |
| 10:22 | algernon | babilen: off the top of my head: (html/select *your-content* [:page html/content]) should get you a list of all the children of page, which you can map over and extract whatever further stuff you need with enlive functions |
| 10:24 | algernon | hrm, perhaps that's not right.. looking at enlive-tutorial's scrape3.clj, that does something similar to what you want, I think |
| 10:25 | babilen | algernon: Yeah, I know how to get content of tags/nodes that I know in advance. But here I only know that I want all children of something. I could, naturally, do something like (map (juxt :tag html/text) (html/select p [:page html/content])) and clean up the results manually, but that feels wrong. |
| 10:29 | scriptor | ohpauleez: as a rough sketch, would a rule checking for as/:as errors looking something like [(use ?x as ?y) (use ?x :as ?y)] ? |
| 10:30 | ohpauleez | yes |
| 10:30 | ohpauleez | Scriptor: ^ |
| 10:33 | scriptor | extending that to (ns (:use …)) might be trickier ... |
| 10:44 | pandeiro | say i'm making an API and i want to have a special version of it for REPL usage: better to use the same function names in whatever.repl ns, or do something to differentiate (like an asterisk)? |
| 10:51 | gtrak | pandeiro: what's the difference except maybe using literals and data for things? |
| 10:51 | goracio | is there any equivalent to "and" "or" in clojure ? ( if (this and that) (do this) (otherwise)) |
| 10:52 | gtrak | goracio: try and or or, but it's prefix notation |
| 10:52 | hyPiRion | goracio: (if (and this that) (do this) (otherwise)) |
| 10:52 | hyPiRion | same applies to or |
| 10:53 | goracio | ah ok |
| 10:54 | goracio | seems obvious how i didn't try this :) |
| 10:54 | gtrak | goracio: they're macros so they short-circuit |
| 10:55 | gtrak | ,(and (println 1) (println 2)) |
| 10:55 | clojurebot | 1 |
| 10:55 | gtrak | since println returned nil |
| 10:58 | clgv | pandeiro: if you want to separate it like that thats ok I guess. you can even do better and annotate with metadata the function you want to use in the repl frequently and have a "list-command" function that parses the namespace for functions with that metadata |
| 10:59 | ejackson | clgv: that's sneaky-cool. |
| 10:59 | clgv | ejackson: yeah, I used it in a DSL to automatically `refer` the DSL words when loading a document ;) |
| 11:01 | pandeiro | clgv: hmm, not sure i understand how to do that |
| 11:01 | pandeiro | gtrak: the difference in this case will be that this is a cljs lib that will do async requests, and i would like syncronous versions for use at the repl |
| 11:02 | gtrak | ah, can you wrap everything in promises? |
| 11:02 | gtrak | I think a separate ns makes sense |
| 11:03 | pandeiro | gtrak: hmm, hadn't considered that, i am basically wrapping the google closure xhr.net.io or whatever it is |
| 11:03 | gtrak | I'm doing the same thing in jvm-land |
| 11:03 | pandeiro | i think the repl ns is a good idea, just wondering if there is an established way to handle functions that are specifically for development vs. the actual api versions |
| 11:04 | gtrak | in jvm clojure, I might consider putting it in a test ns |
| 11:04 | clgv | pandeiro: docstrings? ;) |
| 11:04 | pandeiro | clgv: got those :) |
| 11:04 | clgv | pandeiro: depends on what you mean with "handle"^^ |
| 11:04 | gtrak | if it's code that isn't going to be used live, then it shouldn't exist live |
| 11:05 | pandeiro | clgv: handle as in 'present to the user of the library' |
| 11:05 | pandeiro | gtrak: in this case, it shouldn't be called anywhere in an actual cljs app, ergo the closure compiler should not include it |
| 11:05 | gtrak | ah ok |
| 11:05 | gtrak | best of both worlds, then |
| 11:06 | pandeiro | playing with async fns at the cljs repl is a pain b/c of how println works* |
| 11:06 | gtrak | I wish I could have whole-program optimization on jvm :-) |
| 11:06 | abp | Hm, default in protocols should handle everything that the protocol is not explicitly extend to, shouldn't it? |
| 11:06 | abp | Even keywords in Cljurescript |
| 11:06 | gtrak | b/c it has to load all the classes recursively |
| 11:07 | pandeiro | anyway i think i will just mirror the fn names in the repl namespace and see if anyone complains later... thks clgv gtrak |
| 11:07 | mklappstuhl | I'm given a task to develop a server with simple domain logic (mainly storage & rest stuff) and I'd like to avoid java (which is used on the desktop side of this project) ... my experience in clojure is not very high, nontheless I'd like to have some good arguments in the java vs. clojure debate ... does anyone have any links or comments to that? |
| 11:08 | clgv | mklappstuhl: declarative desciption of your rest api/resources could be one |
| 11:16 | mklappstuhl | clgv: what exactly do you mean my declarative? the way java does it also seems kind of declarative to me |
| 11:19 | abp | Good that no one answered to my question, I were tangled in a lack of attention. :) |
| 11:20 | wingy | I can't get how I can make compojure reload the code |
| 11:20 | abp | wingy: Are you running jetty from the repl? |
| 11:20 | weavejester | wingy: How do you want it to reload the code? Automatically? Via the REPL? |
| 11:21 | wingy | abp weavejester: I have this line in the server file: (run-jetty #'handler {:port (get config :port) :join? false}) |
| 11:21 | wingy | its wrapped in a "main" function which I run on the cli: (-main) |
| 11:21 | clgv | mklappstuhl: well usually in clojure due to macros (and maybe also the literal notation for sets and maps) you can be declarative within the language and without xml-bloat |
| 11:22 | weavejester | wingy: That looks okay so far. |
| 11:22 | abp | weavejester: Starting via run-jetty, passing a var, then reloading code stopped working for me a while ago. With nrepl in eclipse. |
| 11:22 | wingy | that starts the server .. i thought the #'handler would make the code reload when running: (require 'myapp.server :reload-all) |
| 11:22 | clgv | mklappstuhl: if you really convince your project leader(s) you will have to compare the best java lib with the best clojure lib anyway and show them that it is faster to do in clojure and hence cheaper... |
| 11:23 | abp | weavejester: Used lein-ring with nrepl-server started from :init for a while, so I do it like that now too. |
| 11:23 | weavejester | wingy: Passing it as a var means run-jetty will take the latest version of the var. |
| 11:24 | weavejester | wingy: What part isn't "reloading"? |
| 11:24 | weavejester | wingy: The definition of handler? |
| 11:24 | wingy | weavejester: i added a println message in a route handler and it is using the latest since i can see the new message |
| 11:25 | weavejester | wingy: So why do you think it isn't reloading? |
| 11:25 | wingy | weavejester: i just realized it now .. but the hiccup templates are not reloading |
| 11:25 | wingy | so perhaps it has something to do with hiccup? |
| 11:26 | wingy | let me retry |
| 11:28 | weavejester | wingy: There shouldn't be anything special with Hiccup with regard to reloading. |
| 11:28 | weavejester | wingy: But it might be that you haven't reloaded your view namespaces |
| 11:30 | wingy | weavejester: actually now it worked with (require 'myapp.server :reload-all) |
| 11:30 | mklappstuhl | clgv: ok, got what you meant by declarative... thought you were referring to a specific lib or something like that |
| 11:31 | abalone | basic naive question: can ClojureScript (javascript) be used for server administration / deployment to cloud infrastructure, etc? |
| 11:32 | nDuff | abalone: If you have infrastructure that lets you do it with javascript alone, sure. :) |
| 11:33 | abalone | nDuff: is that rare? |
| 11:33 | nDuff | abalone: ...inasmuch as you have RESTful APIs and such, it can probably be done, but you'd be building a lot of parts on your own |
| 11:33 | mklappstuhl | nDuff: why would you aim to do that? |
| 11:33 | weavejester | wingy: Out of interest, what version of Clojure are you running? |
| 11:34 | nDuff | vs having higher-level APIs available for other platforms (Java, Ruby, &c). |
| 11:34 | nDuff | mklappstuhl: I wouldn't. |
| 11:34 | nDuff | mklappstuhl: ...but abalone asked. |
| 11:34 | abalone | nDuff: sounds like it would be better to use some existing thing |
| 11:34 | nDuff | abalone: Yup, sure would. |
| 11:34 | wingy | weavejester: 1.4 |
| 11:34 | abalone | nDuff: darn. i was trying to come up with excuses to use clojurescript |
| 11:35 | wingy | weavejester: the values defined with (def) doesnt update |
| 11:35 | nDuff | abalone: If you aren't getting asked to build web UIs to your infrastructure, count yourself lucky. Otherwise, you'll find an excuse sooner or later. :) |
| 11:35 | wingy | should i wrap them in (defn) or is it a better way to having them reloading? |
| 11:36 | mklappstuhl | nDuff: oh, then this question was directed to abalone , sorry |
| 11:37 | nDuff | wingy: ...if you want to be able to mutate something without coordination, sounds like a job for an atom, unless you'd have a reason a dynamic var would make more sense (like being able to install temporary, thread-local values during test execution)... |
| 11:37 | abalone | mklappstuhl: yeah, i'd only want to use clojurescript if the existing already-invented wheels were on par with other options |
| 11:37 | clgv | abalone: clojure can though. the lib is called pallet |
| 11:38 | abalone | OH IS THAT SO? cackles |
| 11:38 | abalone | clgv: that is very good to hear |
| 11:38 | abalone | i may have my dream after all |
| 11:38 | wingy | nDuff: i just want the value to update when I run (require 'myapp.server :reload-all) .. the suggestions are still atom/dynamic var ? |
| 11:39 | clgv | I only use rsync and exec-script right now, but that library even has built-in support to install ubuntu-packages remotely ;) |
| 11:39 | abalone | clgv: i'm very glad you mentioned it |
| 11:40 | clgv | or even more advanced setup instances on cloud services^^ |
| 11:54 | wingy | this is so weird .. suddenly the hiccup templates aren't reloading again when doing (require 'myapp.server :reload-all) |
| 11:56 | abp | wingy: Do you have multiple java processes running? |
| 11:57 | wingy | abp: i have light table and this app server running |
| 11:57 | abp | wingy: I once had a problem with an old server still running and answering the requests.. |
| 11:58 | wingy | now its working again |
| 11:58 | wingy | i have no clue |
| 11:58 | wingy | let me start a new instance and try it again |
| 11:58 | abp | wingy: Yes. My problems were with hiccup templates too. Will investigate as soon as I can. |
| 11:59 | abp | wingy: Got to go now. Good luck. Will have a look at the irc-logs later. |
| 11:59 | wingy | abp: ok thx |
| 12:00 | wingy | think i knw what the problem is |
| 12:00 | wingy | the namespace wasn't reloading |
| 12:01 | wingy | i reloaded the hiccup template namespace separately and it worked .. though reloading the main server file should reload the template namespace since i used :reload-all |
| 12:01 | wingy | i thought |
| 12:03 | clgv | wingy: maybe the templates are loaded within a function - then you would have to reload-all and call that function |
| 12:04 | wingy | clgv: no the route is executing that function to get the template |
| 12:04 | wingy | and the route executes it everytime i refresh the browser |
| 12:05 | wingy | im sure that the namespace wasn't updated .. i can actually see this with the repl wait |
| 12:05 | clgv | ok. that would have been a possible explanation ;) |
| 12:06 | wingy | yepp .. that was the case |
| 12:07 | wingy | so that leaves .. why isn't template namespace reloading when i reload the main file |
| 12:07 | wingy | i think i read something about it in the doc |
| 12:09 | wingy | (require 'myapp :reload-all :verbose) confirms that it reloads only itself and not the other files it requires in the head |
| 12:11 | wingy | seems to be a clojure issue then .. does anyone know how i can reload a file and all the other files it requires recursively til the chain is ending? |
| 12:12 | jkkramer | wingy: a common practice is to reload a file or section as you edit it using the appropriate shortcut in your IDE - e.g., C-c C-k in Emacs. it's a lot easier than putting in "(require … :reload)" all the time in the repl |
| 12:12 | wingy | yeah |
| 12:13 | wingy | waiting for Light Table to be ready .. im using Sublime text atm |
| 12:14 | jkkramer | eclipse & counterclockwise are relatively easy to setup if you don't want to go down the Emacs rabbit hole |
| 12:15 | wingy | jkkramer: i should look at eclipse/ccw |
| 12:17 | hldfr | wingy I switched to emacs from sublime text recently, I'm not looking back to anything else now |
| 12:17 | wingy | hldfr: im more of a fan of light table though .. its the future! |
| 12:18 | hldfr | wingy: yes, it's exciting :) |
| 12:18 | wingy | i would have used emacs if not for light table though |
| 12:18 | hldfr | I must try light table sometime |
| 12:19 | wingy | try it now .. the repl is awesome |
| 12:19 | wingy | live eval |
| 12:19 | wingy | much better than using the lein repl to test out snippets |
| 12:19 | nDuff | Is light table actually useful for real-world projects now? Last I played with it it was a fun toy, but Emacs was still the right thing for actual work. |
| 12:20 | hldfr | getting the jar |
| 12:20 | wingy | nDuff: its not ready for real world projects |
| 12:20 | hldfr | I've been reading about it time to time |
| 12:20 | wingy | more like a repl for now |
| 12:21 | thorbjornDX | supposedly lighttable has project integration now, but I haven't used it with much success |
| 12:21 | wingy | but its on its way .. the features look good for real world projects when its ready |
| 12:22 | thorbjornDX | I would love to see scm integration of some sort |
| 12:22 | wingy | still buggy and missing basic features for ditching your favorite ide |
| 12:22 | TimMc | No paredit yet? |
| 12:22 | wingy | yeah i think he'll cover it .. he's a good visionary .. knowing where we should head |
| 12:23 | wingy | TimMc: no |
| 12:23 | hldfr | I've been wondering if emacs-live is just meant for music, or do people also use it as a good default emacs config for clojure ? https://github.com/overtone/emacs-live |
| 12:25 | hldfr | love the doc popup as seen here https://github.com/downloads/overtone/live-coding-emacs/live-coding-config-in-use.png |
| 12:29 | thmzlt | hldfr: I use emacs-live for clojure in general |
| 12:29 | hldfr | thmzlt I'm new to both clojure, emacs, is it good off the shelf or needs more work/understanding of emacs ? |
| 12:30 | hldfr | s/or/or does it/ |
| 12:30 | nDuff | hldfr: emacs-live is a pretty nice off-the-shelf package. |
| 12:30 | thmzlt | hldfr: good off the shell, I use because I don't want (yet) to figure out emacs |
| 12:31 | nDuff | hldfr: ...much easier to configure than building your own emacs setup from scratch.. |
| 12:31 | hldfr | nDuff thmzlt sounds perfect, gonna try tonight :) |
| 12:31 | nDuff | hldfr: ...that said, to get a good experience out of it, you _will_ want to learn to use paredit-mode. |
| 12:31 | pipeline | paredit has driven me insane so far, i have not got the knack |
| 12:31 | thmzlt | nDuff: what is there to learn about paredit? |
| 12:31 | nDuff | thmzlt: the keybindings? |
| 12:32 | nDuff | hldfr: ...that said, paredit will help your productivity enough that it'll pay for itself in very little time. |
| 12:32 | technomancy | learning paredit is all about coming to grips with your own shortcomings |
| 12:32 | technomancy | realizing that your editing desires are often corrupt and that you need to change your expectations to focus on what is right |
| 12:32 | thmzlt | I don't know any paredit keybindings and I use it just fine, what should I know? |
| 12:32 | hldfr | nDuff nice, I'm yet to explore paredit too, thx |
| 12:33 | thmzlt | technomancy: example? |
| 12:33 | technomancy | thmzlt: people get frustrated about paredit because it prevents them from performing actions that would result in broken structure |
| 12:34 | nDuff | thmzlt: the slurp commands are the big ones to me, but individual workflows differ. |
| 12:34 | technomancy | it shows them that they're asking the wrong questions. don't ask "how can I delete this paren" but "how can I move this expression to the right place" |
| 12:34 | hldfr | would love to do that ^ |
| 12:34 | pipeline | also it occasionally crashes out. |
| 12:34 | thmzlt | technomancy: right. |
| 12:35 | nDuff | pipeline: Only bugs I've seen in the paredit version shipped with emacs-live surround overwrite mode |
| 12:35 | nDuff | pipeline: ...and I use it day-in-day-out. |
| 12:35 | thmzlt | technomancy: but all I do is C-k to move forms around |
| 12:35 | nDuff | (and overwrite mode is evil) |
| 12:35 | egghead | paredit really is one of those things that is confusing at first but insanely rewarding |
| 12:36 | thmzlt | also, if you C-k from within a string, it breaks |
| 12:36 | technomancy | thmzlt: 50% of the benefit of paredit is just what it doesn't let you do. but the slurp and splice commands are definitely worth learning. |
| 12:36 | egghead | a lot of what I use it for (moving around blocks of code) is similar to d% in vim tho |
| 12:36 | technomancy | thmzlt: o_O |
| 12:36 | technomancy | haven't seen that |
| 12:36 | nDuff | thmzlt: Not the version I'm running. |
| 12:36 | nDuff | thmzlt: ...correctly cuts only the remainder of that string for me. |
| 12:36 | thmzlt | maybe it's caused by something else in emacs-live |
| 12:38 | thmzlt | yeah, I just tested it now and it worked fine, but sometimes it kills the closing \" |
| 12:39 | technomancy | interesting |
| 12:41 | gfredericks | technomancy: you can splice back out of the string as well |
| 12:41 | technomancy | oh fancy; didn't realize splice worked inside strings |
| 12:41 | technomancy | and it unquotes |
| 12:41 | technomancy | huh; the cheat sheet doesn't cover convolute-sexp |
| 12:42 | gfredericks | technomancy: I didn't know about M-" so we inter-learned each other |
| 12:42 | gfredericks | in a very symmetric way |
| 12:42 | technomancy | gfredericks: o/ |
| 12:42 | gfredericks | \o |
| 12:42 | technomancy | =D |
| 12:43 | gfredericks | it's like we each had half a locket... |
| 12:44 | goracio | suppose we have 2 lists - list1 list2 : how to get list1 without elements in list2 ? |
| 12:44 | nDuff | Hrm. |
| 12:47 | jkkramer | goracio: (remove (set list2) list1) |
| 12:48 | nDuff | ...be nice if there were a way to do this only within a thread / binding context / such... |
| 12:48 | goracio | jkkramer: thanks it's magic i don't understand so far but it works :) |
| 12:49 | pjstadig | technomancy & gfredericks: you guys are weird |
| 12:49 | pjstadig | but informative |
| 12:56 | rlb | TimMc: yeah, incanter window's blank here via ssh -X or -Y. It works fine locally... |
| 12:56 | rlb | s/window's/window is/ |
| 12:59 | Kototama | so for the daring minds using clojurescript with lein cljsbuild auto I have written a little emacs mode: https://github.com/kototama/cljsbuild-mode |
| 13:02 | TimMc | rlb: The window does appear, though? |
| 13:13 | jcromartie | what's the easiest way to serve up a REPL from my Java web app |
| 13:22 | andrewmcveigh | jcromartie: I've done it with clojure.tools.nrepl, fairly straightforward. |
| 13:27 | Cheiron | Hi, I have a map of maps . i want to iterate through the maps , if any of the maps isn't consisting of three elements, i want to return false. otherwise return true (which means each of the nested maps consist of three elements) |
| 13:27 | S11001001 | ,(doc all?) |
| 13:28 | clojurebot | Cool story bro. |
| 13:28 | S11001001 | ,(doc every?) |
| 13:28 | clojurebot | "([pred coll]); Returns true if (pred x) is logical true for every x in coll, else false." |
| 13:28 | S11001001 | Cheiron: you can use every? *again* in the pred you pass to the outer every? |
| 13:29 | TimMc | (every? #(= (count (val %)) 3) map-of-maps) |
| 13:29 | S11001001 | TimMc: I think Cheiron wants to test the submaps' sizes |
| 13:29 | Cheiron | yes indeed |
| 13:30 | S11001001 | ..in which case maybe you don't need to nest |
| 13:30 | Cheiron | don't need to nest? |
| 13:30 | Cheiron | the data structure I have is a map of maps |
| 13:30 | Cheiron | can't change that |
| 13:30 | TimMc | S11001001: Pretty sure that's what my code does. |
| 13:30 | S11001001 | Cheiron: I thought you wanted to lift the "does this have 3 elts"? test twice |
| 13:30 | S11001001 | but maybe you only want to lift it once |
| 13:30 | TimMc | &(every? #(= (count (val %)) 3) {:x {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} :y {:d 4 :e 5 :f 6}}) |
| 13:31 | lazybot | ⇒ true |
| 13:31 | hyPiRion | 'Course you can: (every? #(= (count (val %)) 3) (apply concat map-of-maps)) |
| 13:31 | S11001001 | hyPiRion: nope, keys |
| 13:31 | hyPiRion | o |
| 13:32 | Cheiron | TimMc: why you are passing val? |
| 13:32 | hyPiRion | ,(val [0 1]) |
| 13:32 | clojurebot | #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry> |
| 13:32 | hyPiRion | Well, val takes a map entry and gives the value in that entry. |
| 13:33 | Cheiron | oh eye c |
| 13:33 | thorbjornDX | what's the best way to profile clojure code? |
| 13:33 | TimMc | That predicate gets Map.Entry key-value pairs. The values, in this case, should be 3-element maps. |
| 13:33 | Cheiron | thorbjornDX: VisualVM ? |
| 13:34 | TimMc | Hmm, someone in here does work on a commercial JVM profiler... I can't recall the name. |
| 13:34 | thorbjornDX | Cheiron: I'll give it a look |
| 13:35 | jcromartie | what replaces add-classpath? |
| 13:36 | Cheiron | TimMc: Thanks, it works ! |
| 13:37 | technomancy | jcromartie: pomegranate, sorta |
| 13:37 | clojurebot | ok, fail. pomegranate is installed, but this dies: |
| 13:37 | technomancy | clojurebot: jerk |
| 13:37 | clojurebot | you cut me deep, man. |
| 13:37 | TimMc | clojurebot: forget ok, fail. pomegranate |is| installed, but this dies: |
| 13:37 | clojurebot | I forgot that ok, fail. pomegranate is installed, but this dies: |
| 13:38 | TimMc | pomegranate |
| 13:39 | TimMc | Oops. OK, that worked in PM. I thought "." was causing it problems, but I guess not. |
| 13:39 | thorbjornDX | Cheiron: visualvm seems like overkill for my problem, maybe I just want "time" :p |
| 13:39 | TimMc | thorbjornDX: You want benchmarking? |
| 13:39 | Cheiron | clojurebot: this IRC desrves a better bot, like me ! |
| 13:39 | clojurebot | Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time |
| 13:39 | TimMc | >_< |
| 13:40 | thorbjornDX | TimMc: yeah, I think that's more accurate |
| 13:40 | thorbjornDX | TimMc: I have a feeling my memory is exploding too, but I can live with that for now |
| 13:40 | TimMc | clojurebot: benchmarking is https://github.com/hugoduncan/criterium |
| 13:40 | clojurebot | You don't have to tell me twice. |
| 13:41 | TimMc | thorbjornDX: ^ Works nicely. |
| 13:41 | thorbjornDX | TimMc: thanks for the link, looks good |
| 13:41 | Cheiron | thorbjornDX: https://github.com/ptaoussanis/timbre |
| 13:42 | thorbjornDX | Cheiron: ah, this looks good. Thanks :) |
| 13:48 | TimMc | YourKit, that's the one. |
| 13:49 | TimMc | Wait, why does a logging lib include a profiling utility? |
| 13:53 | dnolen | ohpauleez: hey when you get a second can you chime in on this http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-395 |
| 13:54 | ohpauleez | dnolen: definitely, I'll look right now |
| 13:56 | ohpauleez | weird, I'm working on two nodejs CLJS apps and I haven't seen that error |
| 13:59 | ohpauleez | I'll assign it to myself and see what I can find. |
| 14:00 | dnolen | ohpauleez: do you use advanced optimization or just simple? |
| 14:00 | Cheiron | the body of when is enclosed with implicit do , right? |
| 14:00 | dnolen | Cheiron: yes |
| 14:00 | ohpauleez | dnolen: I have it on simple right now |
| 14:00 | Cheiron | which means the body could consist of many forms, correct? |
| 14:00 | dnolen | Cheiron: yes |
| 14:01 | Cheiron | hmmmm, strange |
| 14:01 | dnolen | ohpauleez: do you see the error if you switch to advanced? |
| 14:01 | Cheiron | I have a when, the body is executed even if the condition is false, once i wrap the body with do , when is behaving as expected |
| 14:02 | TimMc | Cheiron: in CLJ or CLJS? |
| 14:02 | Cheiron | Clojure |
| 14:02 | dnolen | Cheiron: paste |
| 14:04 | Cheiron | http://pastie.org/5074427 |
| 14:04 | Cheiron | Storm powered project |
| 14:05 | ohpauleez | dnolen: Nope, on my own branch no errors. I'll try on master and poke around |
| 14:05 | Cheiron | Oh, extra ) at line 3 |
| 14:06 | dnolen | ohpauleez: thx much |
| 14:06 | ohpauleez | np |
| 14:06 | Cheiron | thank you all guys, it was the extra ) at line #3 |
| 14:07 | Cheiron | don't blame me, blame the long coding sessions :) |
| 14:07 | Cheiron | clojurebot: have you read "Hackers and Painters" ? |
| 14:07 | clojurebot | I don't understand. |
| 14:25 | doomlord | does there exist a tool for searching a sourcebase for a function by providing sample input and output. i think lisps' would suit this. eg you submit (??? [1 2][3 4])=> [1 2 3 4] and the return value is 'concat. (or any other funtions that are empirically found to do that). one could imagine such a tool caching the queries and so on |
| 14:26 | xeqi | $findfn [1 2] [3 4] [1 2 3 4] |
| 14:26 | lazybot | [clojure.set/union clojure.core/lazy-cat clojure.core/concat clojure.core/into] |
| 14:26 | xeqi | https://github.com/Raynes/findfn |
| 14:26 | xeqi | doomlord: ^ |
| 14:28 | doomlord | i figured clojures' nifty literals would make it quite handy... in haskell-land hoogle's "type based search" is pretty useful |
| 14:28 | doomlord | but an example based version could be even easier to use |
| 14:28 | doomlord | interesting link thanks |
| 14:30 | doomlord | someone should build a website using that :) |
| 14:31 | doomlord | i suppose it could use concurrency to avoid halting-problem issues.. (spawn some tests, cancel ones that dont halt after a threshold) |
| 14:39 | ivenkys | gents noob, generic question : Is there a canonical easy-to-read tutorial for Clojure , for newbs to Functional Programming ? |
| 14:39 | S11001001 | ivenkys: rhickey's video intro for java programmers; extremely easy/impossible to read |
| 14:40 | nDuff | Many of the resources that are widely agreed tend to be things that ship in dead-tree form. |
| 14:40 | ejackson | ivenkys: if you're coming at this from non-FP / non-lisp then a book is your best bet |
| 14:41 | lfranchi | ivenkys: i'd recommend clojure-koans to get you started writing it, and 4clojure.org was helpful for me too. i had no real functional experience beforehand, and it got me going at least |
| 14:41 | ivenkys | nDuff: dead-tree would work in a pinch - |
| 14:42 | ivenkys | S11001001: the impossible to read bit is a hindrance |
| 14:42 | nDuff | ivenkys: It's not short, but the O'Reilley book http://www.clojurebook.com/ is widely recommended. If you want something that focuses on concepts over practice, on the other hand, The Joy Of Clojure is pretty near canonical -- thing is, opinion is widely split on whether it's better as a first or second book. |
| 14:42 | ivenkys | ejackson: hence something to read - my lisp knowledge is rudimentary at best - i dont *really* grok it |
| 14:43 | ivenkys | lfranchi: i will give those a look - |
| 14:44 | S11001001 | ivenkys: it's impossible to read because it's a video, not a text :) |
| 14:45 | ivenkys | S11001001: i know - |
| 14:46 | ivenkys | nDuff: sounds reasonable - i have heard good things about JoC |
| 14:47 | ivenkys | if it helps at all - i do high-volume low latency servers (think Trading Servers) in Java - so something along those lines would be great |
| 15:22 | amalloy | Cheiron: (every? (comp #{3} count) (vals map-of-maps)) |
| 15:23 | TimMc | Ridiculous. |
| 15:28 | Cheiron | amalloy: Wow! |
| 15:30 | ohpauleez | Alan Malloy is the champion of comp |
| 15:30 | Cheiron | amalloy: Still digesting it :D |
| 15:30 | Cheiron | I have always want to use comp but it looks I have a low IQ |
| 15:34 | dnolen_ | amalloy: nice |
| 15:37 | hyPiRion | (->> (vals map-of-maps) (map count) (apply = 3)) |
| 15:42 | ohpauleez | hyPiRion: Save the performance and use a lambda |
| 15:43 | hyPiRion | ohpauleez: If I needed performance I wouldn't be in this channel |
| 15:46 | amalloy | ohpauleez: what performance? his is probably a smidge faster than mine |
| 15:47 | ohpauleez | amalloy: I ready it too fast and thought the `apply` was short-sighted |
| 15:47 | ohpauleez | shortsighted** |
| 15:47 | ohpauleez | I retract my claim haha |
| 15:48 | hyPiRion | Hm, would it make sense to reimplement every? not-any? and friends with reduce + reduced now? |
| 15:48 | amalloy | though i must say i don't like the ->> there. it hides the important stuff on the right, and puts the uninteresting stuff on the left |
| 15:48 | ohpauleez | hyPiRion: I was JUST thinking that |
| 15:49 | ohpauleez | screams for reducers |
| 16:02 | ghadishayban | how do you get clojurebot to require? |
| 16:02 | hyPiRion | ,(require '[clojure.string :as s]) |
| 16:02 | clojurebot | nil |
| 16:03 | hyPiRion | ,(s/join "," [1 2 3]) |
| 16:03 | clojurebot | "1,2,3" |
| 16:03 | ghadishayban | oh snap |
| 16:03 | ghadishayban | (require '[clojure.core.reducers :as r]) |
| 16:03 | ghadishayban | ,(require '[clojure.core.reducers :as r]) |
| 16:03 | clojurebot | #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/core/reducers__init.class or clojure/core/reducers.clj on classpath: > |
| 16:03 | hyPiRion | ,*clojure-version* ; still too young, this one. |
| 16:03 | clojurebot | {:interim true, :major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"} |
| 16:04 | ghadishayban | Ah. Oh well. |
| 16:04 | ghadishayban | (let [large-vector (into [] (repeatedly 10000000 rand))] |
| 16:04 | ghadishayban | (r/fold (r/monoid max (constantly Float/MIN_VALUE)) max large-vector)) |
| 16:04 | hyPiRion | ohpauleez: Wow, the speedup is extreme too. |
| 16:05 | ghadishayban | total hack…but parallel max is crazy fast |
| 16:05 | ohpauleez | hyPiRion: I'd imagine so! n-times where n is number of cores? |
| 16:05 | ghadishayban | but you have to fake out the combining fn |
| 16:05 | amalloy | ghadishayban: makes a rather curious result when your input vector is empty, as well |
| 16:06 | hyPiRion | ohpauleez: Well, I guess it depends on how many items you have to look at. |
| 16:07 | hyPiRion | but (every? pos? (range 1 50000000)) went from 5 seconds to... 0.13 mseconds. |
| 16:07 | bfreis | Is there any reason other than "it has not yet been implemented, but will be" to the lack of the family of functions "partition" on the new Reducers library? |
| 16:08 | amalloy | hyPiRion: that sounds more like "you accidentally did no work at all" than "gosh you did that work so fast" |
| 16:08 | hyPiRion | ohpauleez: Yeah, I suddenly realised that my result was false, as well. |
| 16:08 | ohpauleez | yeah, you should see a change based on the cores you have |
| 16:09 | amalloy | bfreis: welllllll, you can't do that so performantly without some more new ideas |
| 16:09 | bfreis | amalloy: what kind of new ideas? |
| 16:09 | amalloy | i dunno, i haven't had them |
| 16:09 | amalloy | but if your reduce function is supposed to accept a seq of things, then the fact that the reducers lib avoids its *own* consing isn't that important: it has to cons up a whole bunch of lists to feed you anyway |
| 16:09 | hyPiRion | ohpauleez: ~2 times faster with 4 cores. |
| 16:10 | hyPiRion | So it's a noticable speedup. |
| 16:10 | amalloy | hyPiRion: i'd be somewhat suspicious of any speedup, really, since range isn't part of the reducers lib |
| 16:10 | amalloy | (yet. my patch seems to have been delayed to past 1.5) |
| 16:11 | amalloy | that is, i would expect a noticeable improvement for (reduce max (vec ...)), but not for (reduce max (range ...)) |
| 16:12 | hyPiRion | amalloy: What do you mean by suspicious? |
| 16:12 | hyPiRion | Certainly this isn't scientific, of course. |
| 16:12 | devinus | amalloy: what does your patch do? |
| 16:13 | amalloy | $google clj-993 |
| 16:13 | lazybot | [Clojure - Clojure JIRA] http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ?selectedTab=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.project%3Apopularissues-panel |
| 16:13 | amalloy | damn it, google |
| 16:13 | amalloy | http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-993 |
| 16:13 | dnolen_ | hyPiRion: the structure of the range datastructure isn't optimal for leverage what reducers can do. |
| 16:13 | amalloy | dnolen_: not true at all |
| 16:13 | dnolen_ | for leveraging |
| 16:13 | amalloy | or, well. true before my patch. unclear what you meant |
| 16:14 | hyPiRion | dnolen_: Sure, but there's still a noticable speedup on lazy-seqs from what I see here. |
| 16:15 | amalloy | hyPiRion: i mean, suspicious that the speedup is due to some unrelated difference/change. reducers shouldn't be able to work on a range any faster than the current implementation of every? |
| 16:15 | hyPiRion | amalloy: Doesn't reduce chunk its input? every? and friends doesn't. |
| 16:15 | amalloy | as it happens, in this case the speedup is because range is chunked, and reducers "handle" chunked seqs, while the current impl of every? doesn't |
| 16:15 | ohpauleez | yeah, that's not true, you'd see a speedup, just not the full potential |
| 16:15 | ohpauleez | right |
| 16:16 | amalloy | but that's really not a gain from using reducers imo, just a better impl of every |
| 16:16 | ohpauleez | you guys already typed the reason |
| 16:16 | dnolen_ | amalloy: what I meant is that range isn't random access so you can't implement fold the way vectors do. |
| 16:16 | amalloy | dnolen_: untrue. my patch does that |
| 16:16 | amalloy | range is random access if you do a little math |
| 16:16 | hyPiRion | amalloy: Nope, it's not a gain from reducers, it's a gain by using reduce + reduced. |
| 16:17 | amalloy | fair enough, hyPiRion |
| 16:17 | dnolen_ | amalloy: ah right, so you don't actually look at the range, rather it's size and work over the sub ranges? |
| 16:17 | amalloy | yes. size, start, step, and end. split up into halves accordingly |
| 16:18 | dnolen_ | hyPiRion: yes reducers benefit from lack of allocation overhead. but it just bends on what you doing whether reducers will actually benefit any given program. |
| 16:18 | hyPiRion | So yeah, it shouldn't increase the speed with more cores, but it should increase it due to more cache hit. |
| 16:18 | dnolen_ | s/bends/depends |
| 16:18 | dnolen_ | hyPiRion: it will increase with more cores w/ the right data structure |
| 16:18 | amalloy | hyPiRion: cache hits? i suppose that's some of it; i would have guessed it's fewer allocations |
| 16:18 | dnolen_ | hyPiRion: it's a good thing you're in Clojure to talk about performance |
| 16:19 | hyPiRion | dnolen_: oh? |
| 16:21 | Daishiman | Hi everyone . I seem to be getting an error when trying these use and require directives on an ns. I'm very new at this, although I understand it's not that simple a topic http://pastebin.com/WqtTu2X7 |
| 16:21 | Daishiman | And I get the error 'Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol, compiling:(core.clj:1)' |
| 16:23 | TimMc | Daishiman: :only (settings) |
| 16:23 | hyPiRion | I should just take a look under the covers on how it's implemented I guess. |
| 16:23 | TimMc | Daishiman: Your error message is saying "I expected a sequence but found a symbol." |
| 16:23 | amalloy | TimMc: down with parens, long live brackets! |
| 16:24 | TimMc | Sure, or :only [settings] |
| 16:27 | Daishiman | Alright, I got it |
| 16:27 | Daishiman | thanks TimMc! |
| 16:37 | emezeske | amalloy: Long live curly brackets! ##(use '[clojure.string :only #{split}]) |
| 16:37 | lazybot | ⇒ nil |
| 16:38 | amalloy | haha, nice |
| 16:38 | emezeske | I actually, in a perverse way, kind of like that |
| 16:38 | emezeske | In principle it really is a set |
| 16:38 | amalloy | emezeske: i sympathize, but i still have no choice but to take away your clojure license for this abomination |
| 16:39 | emezeske | amalloy: I'm no stranger to operating without a license. |
| 16:39 | ohpauleez | haha |
| 16:40 | emezeske | ~guards |
| 16:40 | clojurebot | SEIZE HIM! |
| 16:42 | bfreis | What would be a good way (performance-wise) to look for a "pattern" in a reducible collection, if that pattern consists of, say, 3 elements from the collection? For instance, suppose I want to find all the local maximums of a sequence of numbers. |
| 16:42 | TimMc | emezeske: Consider me a convert. |
| 16:43 | amalloy | &(partition 3 1 (range 8)) |
| 16:43 | lazybot | ⇒ ((0 1 2) (1 2 3) (2 3 4) (3 4 5) (4 5 6) (5 6 7)) |
| 16:43 | TimMc | bfreis: What are the local maximums of (range 10)? |
| 16:43 | bfreis | amalloy: that's exactly why I was looking for an implementation of "partition" on reducers :p |
| 16:44 | bfreis | TimMc: it is just the last element |
| 16:46 | TimMc | bfreis: The b for any (a b c) where (and (< a b) (< c b))? |
| 16:47 | bfreis | TimMc: yes, that's what I call an example of a "pattern" I'm looking for in a sequence. But I would like to do so using reducers, not just sequences (which is trivial: (filter matches-my-pattern (partition my-pattern-size 1 my-sequence))) |
| 16:48 | TimMc | I see -- because the input sequence collapses to a smaller output sequence. |
| 16:49 | amalloy | like i said, there's no real way to benefit from reducers in this problem |
| 16:50 | amalloy | you can't fold in parallel, because some input items are used in more than one output item and you can't combine intermediate results in any way i can see |
| 16:51 | amalloy | and you can't avoid consing up a bunch of lists for your triples, so the non-parallel part of the reducers lib can't cut down on consing for you |
| 16:51 | technomancy | clojurebot: litany against cons |
| 16:51 | clojurebot | litany against cons is "I must not cons. Cons is the perf-killer. Cons is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my cons and permit it to pass over me and through me, and when it has gone past I will turn my GC to see its path. And where it has gone there will be nothing; only I will remain." |
| 16:52 | TimMc | amalloy: And if the pattern recognition is slow compared to allocation and GC, then...? |
| 16:52 | amalloy | TimMc: then who cares if you use reducers or sequences? |
| 16:53 | TimMc | I suppose if the triples can only be generated linearly, that's a problem. |
| 16:54 | bfreis | amalloy: I was thinking about a way to avoid consing lists. What if I write some kind of mutable datatype, with an array of the appropriate type, representing a circular buffer with the size of the partition I want? Then there would be no consing. Do you think it is any good? |
| 16:55 | amalloy | you could probably do that. doesn't seem worth the bother for me, since consing is unlikely to be your primary bottleneck, but i'm not writing your app |
| 16:55 | huangjs | hey, just wondering if there's extra clojure/conj ticket available |
| 17:27 | Mr_Bond | Clojure is fun :) |
| 17:29 | Daishiman | Hey guys, another question: I have a function that starts a number of threads that just print stuff with (dotimes ...... (.start (Thread. (fn [] (print "stuff"))))), and while the function body appears to run without issues, the prints within the thread bodies seem to have no effect. |
| 17:29 | S11001001 | Daishiman: future is a cooler way to write .start Thread. fn [] |
| 17:30 | gfredericks | Daishiman: I think print doesn't flush the buffer? |
| 17:30 | S11001001 | Daishiman: and you probably don't have the dynamic binding to *out* in your thread |
| 17:30 | S11001001 | Daishiman: which, incidentally, will magically be fixed when you rewrite to use future instead |
| 17:30 | gfredericks | S11001001: isn't stdout the root binding anyhow? |
| 17:30 | S11001001 | gfredericks: I don't know Daishiman's setup |
| 17:31 | Daishiman | @S11001001: any docs that might reference how to use futures |
| 17:31 | Daishiman | ? |
| 17:31 | S11001001 | ,(doc future) |
| 17:31 | gfredericks | (future (print "stuff")) |
| 17:31 | clojurebot | "([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a future object that will invoke the body in another thread, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent calls to deref/@. If the computation has not yet finished, calls to deref/@ will block, unless the variant of deref with timeout is used. See also - realized?." |
| 17:34 | Mr_Bond | I'm trying to call java.nio.file.Files.walkFileTree(), my namespace has java.nio.file.Files. How would I do it? I tried "(.walkFileTree Files)", but it seems to try .walkFileTree on java.lang.Class |
| 17:34 | _ulises | ,(future 1) |
| 17:34 | clojurebot | #<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: no threads please> |
| 17:34 | _ulises | pah |
| 17:35 | Daishiman | @S11001001: Seems to be doing the trick |
| 17:35 | gfredericks | ,&(future 1) |
| 17:35 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: & in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)> |
| 17:35 | gfredericks | &(future 1) |
| 17:35 | lazybot | java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! future-call is bad! |
| 17:35 | brehaut | there is no future for you here, gfredericks |
| 17:36 | S11001001 | ,@(future 42) |
| 17:36 | clojurebot | #<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: no threads please> |
| 17:36 | S11001001 | heh |
| 17:36 | gfredericks | ,(let [future identity] (future 42)) |
| 17:36 | clojurebot | 42 |
| 17:36 | emezeske | Mr_Bond: Have you tried something like (Files/walkFileTree) ? |
| 17:36 | S11001001 | Daishiman: good. Also you just got thread pooling for free |
| 17:36 | Mr_Bond | emezeske: ahh! Thanks! |
| 17:36 | Daishiman | Can the execution of a future be controlled with regular threading methods such as sleep()? |
| 17:37 | S11001001 | Daishiman: yeah |
| 17:37 | Daishiman | S11001001: excellent |
| 17:38 | S11001001 | ,(send-off (agent 21) (partial + 21)) |
| 17:38 | clojurebot | #<Agent@59abb215: 21> |
| 17:38 | S11001001 | no threads, eh? |
| 17:38 | aperiodic | Mr_Bond: /g d |
| 17:38 | aperiodic | oops |
| 17:39 | Mr_Bond | cool, it works :) I wasn't sure (proxy) would do the trick or not, but it does :) |
| 17:40 | Mr_Bond | spent almost whole trying to make the walkfiletree work |
| 17:40 | duck1123 | Daishiman: this might help, http://www.clojureatlas.com/org.clojure:clojure:1.4.0?guest=t#ref/futures |
| 17:40 | Mr_Bond | I learned you can reload a class in lein. That's useful |
| 17:40 | Mr_Bond | lein repl |
| 17:52 | Mr_Bond | when you are writing functions inside a (proxy), is it possible to set variables outside the proxy? I mean something like (let [size 0] (proxy (doSomethingWithSize [] ...))) |
| 17:52 | amalloy | it's never possible to set variables in any circumstances |
| 17:52 | Mr_Bond | or (def size 0); first |
| 17:53 | Mr_Bond | Or perhaps it's better to use gen-class for it? |
| 17:55 | hiredman | def is always global |
| 17:55 | raek | Mr_Bond: you can do something like (let [state (atom ...)] (proxy ... methods that read or update state...)) |
| 17:56 | Mr_Bond | raek: cool, thanks! |
| 18:03 | edlich | Can someone tell me what's wrong here: |
| 18:03 | edlich | (def myat (atom :empty)) |
| 18:03 | edlich | (swap! myat nthrest '(:a :b :c :d :e) 3) |
| 18:04 | edlich | wrong args passed to nthrest |
| 18:04 | gfredericks | ,(doc nthrest) |
| 18:04 | clojurebot | "([coll n]); Returns the nth rest of coll, coll when n is 0." |
| 18:04 | gfredericks | takes two args but you're giving it three |
| 18:04 | edlich | But this works: (reset! myat (nthrest '(:a :b :c :d :e) 3)) |
| 18:04 | Daishiman | Speaking of futures, I keep getting a " Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/let" for a let block within a future. I'm not really sure what this error means. |
| 18:04 | gfredericks | edlich: you're effectively calling (nthrest :empty '(:a :b :c :d :e) 3) |
| 18:05 | edlich | I do not see three |
| 18:05 | gfredericks | edlich: swap! is for including the current value as part of the update; reset! is for ignoring the current value |
| 18:05 | gfredericks | edlich: so with swap! the current value is transparently passed to the update function as the firs arg |
| 18:05 | edlich | nthrest has two args (puzzeld) |
| 18:05 | gfredericks | edlich: yes but you're giving it effectively three |
| 18:05 | gfredericks | there is the current value of the atom (:empty) and the two extra args you passed to swap! |
| 18:06 | gfredericks | '(:a :b :c :d :e) and 3 |
| 18:06 | edlich | so what would be a correct swap? |
| 18:06 | gfredericks | edlich: what are you trying to do? just set the value to the nthrest of the two args and ignore the current value? |
| 18:07 | gfredericks | edlich: i.e., why can't you just use reset! ? |
| 18:07 | edlich | I have a list, want to drop 3 elements and swap it into the atom |
| 18:07 | gfredericks | edlich: if you don't care what the current value of the atom is, use reset! |
| 18:07 | edlich | reset is fine but I have a book saying that reset is not good. Because normally the value comes from a function! |
| 18:07 | edlich | ah ok! |
| 18:08 | edlich | Got it! Thanks a lot!! |
| 18:08 | gfredericks | no problem |
| 18:08 | gfredericks | clojure bang functions are great for making people wonder if you're yelling at them |
| 18:08 | amalloy | edlich: the recommendation is to avoid updating an atom without regard for its previous value, not to avoid using reset! if that's what you really want to do |
| 18:09 | ivan | still waiting for some !? functions |
| 18:09 | thmzlt | what's the semantic of "!" in a function name? |
| 18:09 | brehaut | not safe in a transaction |
| 18:09 | technomancy | ivan: for destructive predicates? why not |
| 18:09 | ivan | thmzlt: mutation |
| 18:09 | nDuff | thmzlt: Side-effecting. |
| 18:09 | thmzlt | thanks |
| 18:09 | technomancy | why not ‽ |
| 18:09 | Mr_Bond | are atoms slow? |
| 18:09 | gfredericks | thmzlt: screwing things up |
| 18:09 | brehaut | i am infavor of ‽ |
| 18:09 | nDuff | Mr_Bond: No. |
| 18:09 | thmzlt | in ruby it is "something dangerous", but everything is dangerous in ruby |
| 18:10 | ivan | technomancy: perhaps in a quantum system? |
| 18:10 | technomancy | ivan: I had the heisenberg uncertainty principle in mind |
| 18:10 | gfredericks | it is a destructive update and a predicate in superposition |
| 18:10 | Mr_Bond | Hm, I thought this java.nio.walkFileTree would be way faster than (file-seq) |
| 18:10 | TimMc | Maybe it'sa destructive operations that tells you if it succeeded. |
| 18:11 | gfredericks | when you examine the value you will find that either something has been destructively updated or else you have a boolean value |
| 18:11 | TimMc | ivan: Actually, yeah -- you modify information by reading it in quantum computing. Good call. |
| 18:12 | gfredericks | you also modify it by modifying it |
| 18:12 | TimMc | Sure. |
| 18:15 | Mr_Bond | Ah, lol. It is, it's about 8x faster :) |
| 18:15 | Mr_Bond | thanks for all the help guys, appreciate it! |
| 18:25 | thmzlt | is clojurescriptone.com the thing to use to get started with clojurescript? (I already know a little clojure) |
| 18:26 | nDuff | I'm wondering if I ought to make http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12940052/extending-a-library-provided-protocol-without-impacting-other-users/12943585 a mailing list post. Feels like something there should be a clean way to do, but if there is one, I'm not aware of it. |
| 18:34 | dnolen_ | nDuff: not a good iea |
| 18:34 | dnolen_ | idea |
| 18:34 | nDuff | dnolen_: I agree. |
| 18:34 | nDuff | dnolen_: ...using the reader would be much, much saner. |
| 18:34 | nDuff | dnolen_: (if you're talking about the specific use case) |
| 18:35 | nDuff | dnolen_: ...and monkey-patching is pretty darned squicky (if you're talking about the general case) |
| 18:36 | nDuff | ...but it is what it is; I have a bunch of data already serialized to an external datastore using msgpack, with strings constrained such that the only ones that start with ":" should be keywords, and code which uses keyword-based access. |
| 18:36 | dnolen_ | nDuff: make your own protocol, default it to delegate to the original protocol - but handle this type specially. |
| 18:36 | nDuff | dnolen_: The objects that need to be handled are generated by the msgpack library; I can't change their type. |
| 18:37 | nDuff | ...oh |
| 18:37 | nDuff | Ahh. |
| 18:37 | nDuff | ...okay, I could do that, but I'd need to replace rather a lot of clj-msgpack |
| 18:37 | nDuff | as the protocol in question isn't called by my code, but by it. |
| 18:37 | nDuff | (granted, there isn't _that_ much of clj-msgpack to replace) |
| 18:38 | dnolen_ | nDuff: yes, was just about PITAness depends on API surface |
| 18:38 | dnolen_ | was just about to say I mean |
| 18:45 | callen | actually, if you want an example of how a bad API can thoroughly ruin something, just write some Scala code. |
| 18:46 | callen | you need a table of elements just for the operators specific to the HTTP library, at least in Perl the digraphs were composable and reusable in multiple contexts. In scala you have to memorize of the context of a specific arcane symbol per API. |
| 18:46 | callen | infinite combinations. SO MUCH FUN </sarcasm> |
| 18:52 | emezeske | callen: Are you talking about Dispatch for scala? Looking at the docs... so much pain. |
| 19:01 | technomancy | oh dear: http://www.amazon.com/Dispatch-ebook/dp/B007RE79X8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1333606637&sr=8-1 |
| 19:01 | technomancy | there is a book. on an http client. |
| 19:01 | technomancy | oh, only 23 pages. that's some consolation. |
| 19:03 | brehaut | "Dispatch is probably the most popular library for doing HTTP requests from Scala" |
| 19:03 | brehaut | where to begin |
| 19:04 | callen | brehaut: technomancy Dispatch is 40% of why I abandoned Scala. |
| 19:04 | callen | the other 60% has a lot to do with oxymoron named sbt. |
| 19:05 | callen | technomancy: leiningen is the beautiful antebellum Clojure noobies step through on their way to enlightenment. sbt is the brutal gauntlet of sorrow Scala newbies sprint through as they get their limbs hacked off. |
| 19:06 | technomancy | I've heard a few horror stories |
| 19:07 | hyPiRion | brehaut: "Think of it as a Scala version of curl or wget." |
| 19:07 | callen | technomancy: the best part, is the horror just gets worse as time goes on and you have to tackle edge-cases. sbt is like the worst of cmake and cabal combined. |
| 19:09 | Sgeo | What's the issue with Dispatch? |
| 19:10 | callen | Sgeo: satanspawn. |
| 19:10 | Sgeo | I haven't looked closely at it, but it mentions Either and promises, both simple concepts |
| 19:10 | callen | Sgeo: you've just walked into our daily 5 minutes of hate. I like to remind people how good they have it. |
| 19:11 | technomancy | usually a mention of maven is enough to get a few good shivers |
| 19:11 | Sgeo | val svc = url("http://api.hostip.info/country.php") |
| 19:11 | Sgeo | val country = Http(svc OK as.String) |
| 19:11 | Sgeo | val length = for (c <- country) yield c.length |
| 19:11 | callen | Sgeo: doesn't work as well in practice as you'd think. Try it with something non-trivial. |
| 19:11 | Sgeo | This looks simple enough, if for is essentially Scala's equivalent of do notation |
| 19:11 | brehaut | Sgeo: it is |
| 19:11 | callen | technomancy: yeah so actually I was wondering, why do so many clojurians seem to be using maven? Are they hiding out in a java project? |
| 19:11 | Sgeo | Although I don't know what this 0K as.String thing is |
| 19:11 | technomancy | callen: I'm the wrong person to ask =) |
| 19:12 | callen | technomancy: I just figured you'd understand the habits of your non-users. :P |
| 19:12 | TimMc | Sgeo: OK, not 0K, I think |
| 19:12 | callen | guess that was silly. |
| 19:12 | Sgeo | Well, there doesn't seem to be another way to use a standalone jar, other than making a maven repo |
| 19:12 | technomancy | callen: contrib projects use it because c. lein 1.4 there was no way to deploy to remote maven repositories |
| 19:13 | Sgeo | It's sort of hindering me a lot |
| 19:13 | technomancy | callen: I don't see a lot of usage of maven outside contrib projects |
| 19:13 | callen | technomancy: just wondering, because it's usually the first example after the lein package + version notation. |
| 19:13 | technomancy | certainly not in OSS, maybe it's more common for internal projects |
| 19:14 | Sgeo | What should I call a language that's heavily based on Clojure but takes a crucial concept from Tcl? |
| 19:14 | callen | that's what I figured anyway. |
| 19:14 | thorbjornDX | Sgeo: Tclojure |
| 19:14 | Sgeo | Tclj seems nice and pun-y, but implies that it's centered around Tcl but it isn't |
| 19:14 | callen | Sgeo: TickleMeElmo |
| 19:14 | Sgeo | thorbjornDX, ooh |
| 19:14 | hyPiRion | Wow, both T and Clojure, two great lisp implementations in one. |
| 19:15 | Raynes | aperiodic: http://www.marthastewart.com/sites/files/marthastewart.com/images/content/web/contests/halloween/best_of_halloween09_empire_state_bldg_xl.jpg |
| 19:15 | callen | Tcl...is not lisp. |
| 19:15 | hyPiRion | callen: I was talking about T. |
| 19:15 | Sgeo | callen, but there are some really cool things about Tcl that I wish more Lisps did |
| 19:15 | TimMc | I'm keeping my damn mouth shut. |
| 19:16 | callen | Sgeo: prolific mutable string eval? What? |
| 19:16 | TimMc | I have a record of coming up with horrible names that people end up using. |
| 19:16 | Sgeo | callen, the eval part |
| 19:16 | Sgeo | And strings aren't mutable |
| 19:16 | callen | Sgeo: you realize lisps used to do prolific eval and they backed off of it for a reason, right? |
| 19:16 | callen | cf. dynamic scope |
| 19:17 | Sgeo | callen, if it can be given a lexical scope... |
| 19:17 | Sgeo | Although currently the easiest way I see to do that involves uplevel, and I think people are scared of it |
| 19:17 | Sgeo | Kernel does something or other, I should read that paper again |
| 19:17 | emezeske | Sgeo: uplevel is cool, but it takes some getting used to for sure |
| 19:18 | TimMc | Sgeo: Wait, this will be a language? Language naming is way harder than lib naming. |
| 19:18 | callen | Sgeo: I wasn't linking them, I was mentioning it as another example of something that turned out to be a bad idea. |
| 19:18 | emezeske | Sgeo: Also, uplevel can be used for such great evil in the wrong hands |
| 19:19 | Sgeo | emezeske, so can macros |
| 19:20 | Sgeo | TimMc, I'm not particularly expecting it to become the next big language |
| 19:20 | _tca | Sgeo: have you looked at wat |
| 19:20 | technomancy | lava's a good name; it's not taken |
| 19:20 | Sgeo | _tca, haven't heard of it |
| 19:20 | _tca | http://manuel.github.com/wat-js/doc/manual.html |
| 19:21 | TimMc | Sgeo: Do you expect it to solve one problem and then go away? In that case, "cloture". |
| 19:22 | TimMc | (Silence falls as everyone reads up on parliamentary procedure.) |
| 19:22 | _tca | even if you don't plan on using it, read the manual before you start working on your own |
| 19:22 | Sgeo | _tca, sounds interesting, for all I know, this might do exactly what I was thinking, plus more |
| 19:23 | callen | uplevel is fucking diabolical. |
| 19:23 | _tca | last time you mention this Tcl thing i don't know anything about it sounded like f-expressions to me |
| 19:23 | Sgeo | _tca, ah, no, it still doesn't do what I want |
| 19:23 | _tca | which is? |
| 19:24 | Sgeo | I want the determination of when to evaluate arguments to occur at the call site, not determined by the operative/applicative |
| 19:24 | Sgeo | Or at least, if it's going to be unevaluated, evaluate part of it before the operative sees it |
| 19:25 | Sgeo | I could probably use Kernel/wat's model of lexical scoping though, as soon as I understand/remember what it is |
| 19:29 | Sgeo | Example: |
| 19:30 | Sgeo | (if (nil? blah) '(println "nil") '(println "not nil")) |
| 19:31 | Sgeo | Oh hey, wat's example of the Error monad is EXACTLY why I wanted to combine delimc and protocol monads |
| 19:34 | _tca | Sgeo: why cant you do it with a macro |
| 19:34 | Sgeo | _tca, because I want my language to not have the macro/function distinction. |
| 19:34 | dustingetz | sego: what is protocol monad |
| 19:34 | dustingetz | only google references refer to jim duet's monad protocols, which is an impl detail |
| 19:34 | Sgeo | _tca, (and arguably Kernel/wat do not in fact have a operator/applicative distinction, as all applicatives should theoretically be operators) |
| 19:35 | Sgeo | dustingetz, yes, I meant that implementation of monads, because I dislike algo.monads. |
| 19:35 | _tca | Sgeo: there has to be some distinction where the evaluation happens |
| 19:36 | Sgeo | _tca, presumably, if is a function that calls eval |
| 19:38 | TimMc | Sgeo: So any function could do syntax transformations on argument expressions if chose to? |
| 19:39 | Sgeo | Yes. But only if it's actually passed a syntax expression |
| 19:39 | Sgeo | In my example |
| 19:40 | Sgeo | (if (nil? blah) (println "nil") (println "not nil")) will always print "nil" then print "not nil" |
| 19:41 | TimMc | Sgeo: And these syntax expressions, would they keep the lexical scope of their origin? |
| 19:42 | Sgeo | lexical scoping is definitely something I want to do... somehow... hmm |
| 19:42 | TimMc | (if (nil? blah) #(println "nil") #(println "not nil")) |
| 19:42 | Sgeo | Well, not "of their origin", no, use lambdas to make closures for that. |
| 19:43 | TimMc | Never mind, that doesn't support transformation. |
| 19:44 | TimMc | Sgeo: (when true '(println x)) -- what is x's scope? |
| 19:44 | Sgeo | If when does an uplevel sort of thing, it's whatever's in scope at the when level |
| 19:45 | Sgeo | But the lexical scoping aspect is still something I need to think through. |
| 19:45 | TimMc | OK. I figured you had a scoping model in mind already. |
| 19:46 | Sgeo | Hrm. |
| 19:46 | Sgeo | I just realized I have no idea how to distinguish: |
| 19:47 | Sgeo | (def code '(println x)) |
| 19:47 | Sgeo | (when true x) |
| 19:47 | Sgeo | From |
| 19:47 | Sgeo | (when true '(println x)) |
| 19:47 | TimMc | (when true code), you mean |
| 19:47 | Sgeo | Oops, you're right |
| 19:48 | Sgeo | Or even whether distinguishing at that point would be desirable. Or if not distinguishing immediately kills all claims of lexical scope |
| 19:51 | Sgeo | I still don't understand why people hate Kernel's $prefixes so much |
| 19:54 | Sgeo | I think it might be sufficient to have some constructs make a clean scope? |
| 19:55 | Sgeo | I would imagine defn introducing a clean scope, but that's just def+fn, and fn usually makes closures |
| 19:55 | Sgeo | Hrm. |
| 19:55 | Sgeo | Making a clean-scope function? |
| 19:55 | aperiodic | Raynes: maybe i can just wear a big box that says "~/.m2" |
| 19:57 | TimMc | aperiodic: EEEEK! |
| 19:57 | TimMc | aperiodic: You might get jars thrown at you. |
| 19:57 | Sgeo | Would having defn not be capable of making a closure be problematic for anyone? |
| 19:58 | Sgeo | Does anyone ever do something like... oh, I guess they do |
| 19:58 | huangjs | hi, I'd like to ask for opinions on current status of web development in clojure comparing to node.js. what are the pros and cons? |
| 19:58 | huangjs | oops, brb |
| 19:58 | aperiodic | Sgeo: you mean fn? absolutely |
| 19:58 | Sgeo | (let [a (atom 0)] (defn f [] (swap! a inc))) |
| 19:58 | Sgeo | aperiodic, no, I mean defn |
| 19:59 | nDuff | huangjs: I'm not sure they're comparable -- I mean, you can use clojurescript to write code for node.js, if you felt like it, but using Clojure server-side the idiom set is completely different. |
| 19:59 | aperiodic | Sgeo: i think that would be fine for me |
| 19:59 | nDuff | *Clojure-on-JVM server-side |
| 19:59 | aperiodic | TimMc: why would you have jars just lying around?? |
| 19:59 | lazybot | aperiodic: Uh, no. Why would you even ask? |
| 19:59 | Sgeo | aperiodic, any good names for a function that clears what I don't think can even rightly be called lexical anymore scope? |
| 20:00 | huangjs | nDuff: i only want to cmopare the server side |
| 20:00 | huangjs | the eco system, libraries |
| 20:00 | nDuff | huangjs: Clojure is built to take extremely good advantage of highly parallel systems (lots and lots of cores). |
| 20:00 | emezeske | huangjs: The JVM is one of the most sprawling ecosystems out there |
| 20:00 | huangjs | i don't care, i care about the speed of development, and easier of debugging (which node sucks) |
| 20:00 | Sgeo | But note that Java libraries are usually unidiomatic to Clojure |
| 20:01 | huangjs | JVM has loads of bloated libraries, |
| 20:01 | technomancy | yeah but node.js has the advantage of not being legacy bullshit |
| 20:01 | technomancy | everybody knows there are only like five languages worth using |
| 20:01 | huangjs | which is CL Scheme Clojure Prolog and Haskell |
| 20:01 | hiredman | technomancy: people will think you are serious |
| 20:02 | technomancy | hiredman: oh I don't know about that |
| 20:02 | nDuff | *shrug*. The Clojure debugging story isn't that great either, if you compare to what used to be available on CL |
| 20:02 | emezeske | huangjs: You just asked about the ecosystem, and then you say you don't care... ? |
| 20:02 | nDuff | ...but I'd take it over Node any day. |
| 20:02 | huangjs | nDuff: true |
| 20:02 | nDuff | ...some of the profiling and debugging tools built for the JVM are downright excellent, if you're willing to deal with some impedence mismatch. |
| 20:03 | Sgeo | nDuff, used to be available? |
| 20:03 | Sgeo | Did SLIME die? |
| 20:03 | brehaut | deprecated |
| 20:04 | Sgeo | o.O |
| 20:04 | brehaut | http://technomancy.us/163 |
| 20:04 | huangjs | ok, question, what's the counterpart of 'express' in clojure? the 'passport' or 'everyauth' for auth, the engine.io for real-time stream? |
| 20:04 | huangjs | how could you make slime die? |
| 20:04 | Sgeo | brehaut, "what used to be available on CL" |
| 20:04 | huangjs | sigh... |
| 20:04 | Sgeo | CL, not Clojure. |
| 20:04 | nDuff | Sgeo: I don't consider CL a living language, and I don't have time for a flamewar about it. |
| 20:04 | brehaut | oh, cl |
| 20:05 | huangjs | what is the defacto awesome environment for CL |
| 20:05 | huangjs | nDuff: CL is pretty alive, |
| 20:05 | Frozenlock | And now with Quicklisp even more so. |
| 20:06 | huangjs | and i just finished a prototype using obscure mongrel2 + cl, good, but development speed still can't beat node even i know much better in CL |
| 20:07 | huangjs | btw, anyone who has spare clojure/conj tickets, please sell it to me :) |
| 20:07 | doomlord | does clojure stdlib have something like CL's "with-slots" ... preferably like this (with obj (... all components of 'obj' are bound in a let available here..) ) |
| 20:08 | TimMc | doomlord: Is that like destructuring? |
| 20:08 | huangjs | TimMc: it's like symbol macro |
| 20:08 | huangjs | TimMc: you can modify the slots, not vars bound |
| 20:09 | doomlord | ah i keep forgetting its very good at destructuring , but not quite: i'm after something where you dont need to specify which components to map; it just brings all into the scope. |
| 20:09 | Sgeo | TimMc, with-slot lets you take a CLOS object and, instead of needing to use (slot-value my-obj 'slot) to get the value and (setf (slot-value my-obj 'slot) ...) to set it, within the body of with-slots you can use slot and (setf slot ...) |
| 20:09 | doomlord | almost like assigning the "this" pointer in C++ |
| 20:09 | doomlord | (not that C++ can do it heh) |
| 20:09 | Sgeo | huangjs, there is a library, not in stdlib, for symbol-macrolet |
| 20:09 | Sgeo | If that's any help |
| 20:10 | Sgeo | But usually you don't mutate objects, so the idiom might not be as useful |
| 20:10 | doomlord | i still think it would be useful for reading things to pass on in immutable-land |
| 20:11 | huangjs | Sgeo: yeah, that makes sense in clojure |
| 20:11 | Sgeo | Could write a macro to do it fairly easily |
| 20:11 | Sgeo | At least the reading and binding part |
| 20:11 | Sgeo | Actually, there is something |
| 20:11 | doomlord | yes i figured one could. |
| 20:12 | Sgeo | ,(let [{:keys [a b c]} {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}] (str "My a is " a " and my b is " b " and my c is " c)) |
| 20:12 | huangjs | hey, please share your opinions, i know there are many good people here, what's your opinions comparing clojure and node.js for web dev? |
| 20:12 | clojurebot | "My a is 1 and my b is 2 and my c is 3" |
| 20:13 | TimMc | huangjs: You just asked that. |
| 20:13 | huangjs | TimMc: i know |
| 20:13 | Sgeo | doomlord, oh, all components automatically? |
| 20:13 | Sgeo | That... sounds like a security hole waiting to happen. |
| 20:13 | doomlord | that looks very close to what i have in mind, but yes a version that just grabs everything automatically |
| 20:13 | Sgeo | Pretty sure with-slots doesn't actually do that either |
| 20:13 | TimMc | Bleh, spooky magically appearing bindings. |
| 20:14 | nDuff | huangjs: I'm not sure this is the right place to ask if you don't want people whose opinions are colored by language aesthetics. |
| 20:14 | doomlord | its just like a "this" pointer for OOP |
| 20:14 | Sgeo | doomlord, the OOP languages you have in mind, are they all statically typed? |
| 20:14 | nDuff | huangjs: ...I mean, there are a _lot_ of places where JavaScript has admitted major design flaws, and it's pretty hard for someone who's picky to get past those and focus only on development velocity. |
| 20:14 | doomlord | you've got the object ... you can access the components with (obj :member) anyway.. its just makig it less verbose |
| 20:15 | huangjs | nDuff: i love and hate javascript, flexible, powerful, but retarded |
| 20:15 | Sgeo | Yeah, Common Lisp's with-slots also asks for the names |
| 20:15 | doomlord | to me this is better than OOP because there's nothing special about one of the 'objects' passed to a function |
| 20:15 | emezeske | doomlord: Seems like a bad idea -- what if someone later on adds a field to the object that you used as a name inside the (with obj ...) |
| 20:15 | doomlord | thats somethign i've never liked in c++ etc |
| 20:15 | Sgeo | doomlord, you're asking for a feature from Common Lisp that Common Lisp doesn't actually have. |
| 20:16 | TimMc | Actually, it can't be done. |
| 20:16 | shaungilchrist | huangjs agreed it is like a turrets savant, totally capable but entirely vulgar |
| 20:16 | doomlord | not really a feature from CL.. just inspired |
| 20:17 | doomlord | "what if someone later adds a field.." - welll i'm used to that sort of hazard in C++ , collisions between arguments, locals, and members |
| 20:17 | emezeske | doomlord: By adding a property to an object, couldn't someone possibly break your (with obj ...) overloading some name that is used there for a different purpose? Seems very fragile |
| 20:17 | TimMc | doomlord: If knowledge of the possible set of fields isn't available at macro-expand time, you can't set up the bindings. |
| 20:17 | emezeske | doomlord: Yeah, but in C++ it's not much of a hazard because the compiler will happily warn you |
| 20:17 | Sgeo | TimMc, hey, that's one of the things that my language will allow. |
| 20:17 | TimMc | haha |
| 20:17 | Sgeo | Suddenly, my language idea seems less attractive. |
| 20:17 | TimMc | :-P |
| 20:18 | TimMc | "toljure" |
| 20:18 | TimMc | as in |
| 20:18 | doomlord | ok the fact its dynamic precludes it |
| 20:18 | TimMc | toljureso |
| 20:18 | TimMc | (Except I didn't really tell-you-so in the first place.) |
| 20:18 | doomlord | so if i have many functions using a set of common bindings ... it might be better to just make a macro that grabs a specific set of bindings |
| 20:19 | Sgeo | Then again, just because someone can do something stupid, doesn't mean they should be stopped from doing it |
| 20:19 | doomlord | (with-xyz srcVector ... ) |
| 20:19 | Sgeo | doomlord, if that's your planned use case, go for it, I think |
| 20:19 | _tca | Sgeo: you should implement the individual things you want in clojure first |
| 20:19 | Sgeo | That sort of fill-in-the-blank thing is the easiest sort of macro to write |
| 20:20 | Sgeo | Heck, go insane and write a macro to write macros to do that |
| 20:20 | huangjs | shaungilchrist: well said! |
| 20:20 | TimMc | shaungilchrist: Oh, "Tourette's". |
| 20:20 | TimMc | I was trying to figure out wtf you were talking about. |
| 20:21 | doomlord | i think i'd do it with a prefix... (defn cross(vec-a vec-b) (with-xyz a vec-a (with xyz b vec-b ( [ -(* ay bz )(* az by).... |
| 20:21 | brehaut | everyone has probably seen this already but http://www.ioccc.org/2012/tromp/hint.html that blew my mind |
| 20:21 | shaungilchrist | haha.. I meant like tower defense... |
| 20:22 | emezeske | doomlord: If you have a prefix, isn't the advantage over (:property object) rather negligable? |
| 20:23 | doomlord | i guess so; however you could use more verbose argument names and less verbose prefixes in the body of the function |
| 20:23 | doomlord | i concede its not clear cut though |
| 20:24 | doomlord | heh the cross product example is a bad one because clojure's destructuring arguments can do it better |
| 20:24 | doomlord | (defn vec-cross[[ax ay az][bx by bz]] (...)? |
| 20:26 | emezeske | Seems pretty reasonable. |
| 20:27 | doomlord | oh isn't it possible to call things with maps as an argument anyway |
| 20:28 | doomlord | oh no that doesn't do it |
| 20:33 | amalloy | okay, pretty cool, brehaut |
| 20:33 | Sgeo | ,'(blah blah '(bla `(woot ~wut ~~huh))) |
| 20:33 | clojurebot | (blah blah (quote (bla (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote sandbox/woot)) (clojure.core/list wut) (clojure.core/list (clojure.core/unquote huh))))))) |
| 20:34 | Sgeo | ,`(a b c `(d e f ~honk ~~honk)) |
| 20:34 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: honk in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)> |
| 20:34 | Sgeo | ,`(a b c `(d e f `(g h ~honk ~~honk))) |
| 20:35 | clojurebot | (sandbox/a sandbox/b sandbox/c (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote sandbox/d)) (clojure.core/list (quote sandbox/e)) (clojure.core/list (quote sandbox/f)) (clojure.core/list (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/seq)) (clojure.core/list (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list #) (clojure.core/list #) (clojure.co... |
| 20:35 | emezeske | Sgeo: Don't you have your own repl? :P |
| 20:35 | Sgeo | honk |
| 20:37 | brehaut | amalloy: the downside is it makes me acutely aware of how little i know about computation |
| 20:41 | notsonerdysunny | I have imported a simple java class into clojure repl usint (import 'callback.runme) |
| 20:41 | notsonerdysunny | I have imported a simple java class into clojure repl usint (import callback.runme) |
| 20:41 | brehaut | (repeatedly notsonerdysunny) |
| 20:42 | notsonerdysunny | it has a main method and I am unable to call its main |
| 20:42 | Sgeo | Is deflfn an ugly name for my language's equivalent of defn? |
| 20:42 | notsonerdysunny | I tried (.main (callback.runme.)) and (callback.runme/main) |
| 20:42 | notsonerdysunny | and main is a static member function .. |
| 20:43 | notsonerdysunny | both the attempts to call the main member function were unsuccessfull .. it say it is unable to find a variable named main .. can somebody help? |
| 20:43 | brehaut | notsonerdysunny: what is the artiy of main? |
| 20:44 | notsonerdysunny | one argument .. with array of strings |
| 20:44 | Sgeo | ,(.charAt "honk" "HONK" ":o)") |
| 20:44 | clojurebot | #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: charAt for class java.lang.String> |
| 20:44 | Sgeo | ,(Math/sin 1 2 3 4 5) |
| 20:44 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: sin, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)> |
| 20:45 | Sgeo | Hmm. Different error |
| 20:45 | Sgeo | notsonerdysunny, sure the portion before / is correct? |
| 20:45 | brehaut | notsonerdysunny: then you'll need to pass that in then |
| 20:46 | brehaut | ,(apropos 'array) |
| 20:46 | clojurebot | (object-array boolean-array long-array short-array char-array ...) |
| 20:47 | brehaut | at a guess (callback.runme/main (make-array String 0)) ? |
| 20:48 | notsonerdysunny | thanks brehaut that fixed it .. |
| 20:49 | brehaut | notsonerdysunny: arity is important to functions on the JVM. javas overloaded methods are effectively name munged to have the airty and type as part of the 'name'. so if you dont include the appropriate arguments, the reflector will say that it cant find the arguments |
| 20:49 | notsonerdysunny | brehaut: what surprises me is it does not complain about arity mismatch .. but says the method is not found.. K now I know .. thanks again |
| 20:49 | brehaut | (approximately) |
| 20:50 | brehaut | thats an implementation detail of java bleeding out |
| 20:51 | Sgeo | Now, if only we can bleed out the rest of Java too. |
| 20:52 | doomlord | clojure on llvm :) |
| 20:53 | doomlord | would be nice to have a native lisp with all the neat features of clojure (like destructuring function args etc) |
| 20:54 | brehaut | liskell |
| 21:01 | rlb | TimMc: yes -- the incanter window does show up via ssh -X or -Y, but it's blank. |
| 21:37 | Frozenlock | Eh.. I have a little problem with Noir. I know for a fact that :dev is being passed as the mode. However, when I use noir.options/dev-mode? in the repl, I get false. Any ideas what I might be missing? |
| 21:40 | Frozenlock | Perhaps it needs to be started from lein? |
| 21:41 | doomlord | whats the difference between :x and 'x |
| 21:42 | doomlord | both appear to work in maps |
| 21:43 | Frozenlock | Wouldn't "x" work too? |
| 21:44 | doomlord | doesn't seem to |
| 21:44 | Frozenlock | &(get {"x" 1} "x") |
| 21:44 | lazybot | ⇒ 1 |
| 21:44 | doomlord | x tries to evaluate itself wheras both :x and 'x appear to be a literal |
| 21:44 | doomlord | ah "x" not x sorry |
| 21:45 | doomlord | well i think :x is nicer than 'x ... but is there some underlying difference. |
| 21:46 | xeqi | &(identical? :x :x) |
| 21:46 | lazybot | ⇒ true |
| 21:46 | xeqi | &(identical? 'x 'x) |
| 21:46 | lazybot | ⇒ false |
| 21:46 | Frozenlock | Yes, iirc a keyword evaluate to itself. |
| 21:57 | hiredman | /win 15 |
| 22:04 | TimMc | &(= ':x :x) |
| 22:04 | lazybot | ⇒ true |
| 22:07 | TimMc | doomlord: Keywords refer to themselves. They're used for ad-hoc structuring of data e.g. {:foo 1 :bar "hello"} and as interned values for comparison e.g. (= :error (:result foo)). |
| 22:09 | TimMc | doomlord: Symbols are intended to be dereferenced at some point. The code (count foo) has two symbols, both of which are replaced with other values at eval time. (Exception: Compiler literals such as 'if, 'do, etc.) |
| 22:11 | doomlord | ok thanks |
| 22:12 | doomlord | symbol almost like a pointer or reference. keyword more like an enum perhaps |
| 22:30 | TimMc | Basically. |
| 22:33 | mindbender1 | Thinking in Clojure? |
| 22:54 | xeqi | anyone have an example of using https://github.com/edgecase/dieter ? |
| 23:12 | sent-hil | I included [ clojure.contrib.math :only ( abs)] in my file, how do I install the library? |
| 23:13 | sent-hil | I'm getting this error: https://gist.github.com/5b7569e8b11c8a9a86dc |
| 23:21 | antares_ | sent-hil: clojure.contrib.math has been obsolete for over 1 year. Use math.numeric-tower (https://github.com/clojure/math.numeric-tower), the README mentions its Leiningen dependency |
| 23:21 | antares_ | sent-hil: for abs, you can use Math/abs from the JDK without any libraries |
| 23:21 | antares_ | ,(Math/abs -1.2) |
| 23:22 | clojurebot | 1.2 |
| 23:22 | sent-hil | antares_: that works, thx! |
| 23:23 | Sgeo | I'm sad that it's easy to implement automatic differentiation on arbitrary mathing functions in Haskell but not so in Clojure |
| 23:24 | Sgeo | Because if a function works on Nums, it's using one of a number of primitive Num using functions, and I can define a new type of Num that behaves how I want and functions that deal with Nums will use my functions |
| 23:24 | ForSpareParts | Any of you guys know of a Clojure-native physics library? Something that leverages the immutable-data stuff? |
| 23:24 | Sgeo | But with Clojure, everything uses Math/whatever, and I can't replace that |
| 23:27 | xeqi | I have similar feelings for the networking. I liked ruby's artifice for mocking external apis |
