#clojure – 2012-10-15

2012-10-15

03:46	kral	namaste
04:06	josteink	no wonder I was getting the wrong behaviour :)
04:07	tomoj	it seems like some ubuntu packages should have a warning label for developers
04:09	josteink	yeah
04:09	tomoj	rubygems too
04:18	clgv	since leiningen has a built-in upgrade these distribution packages have no additional benefit over installing leiningen directly, I'd say
04:20	josteink	yeah
04:20	josteink	but unless you -know- that
04:20	josteink	the default behaviour for most people is doing an apt-get install
04:21	josteink	and assume they have a reasonably standard working setup
04:21	josteink	with leiningen you dont :)
04:21	clgv	well, you know at least that a package of you linux distribution is very likely to not be uptodate ;)
04:22	josteink	heh
04:22	josteink	speaking of which .. lein --version lists java 1.6 :P
04:24	clgv	uff
04:24	clgv	go get that lein2-preview10 ;)
04:25	antares_	josteink: lein2 can use any JDK you want, just export LEIN_JAVA_CMD. I don't remember if lein1 can.
04:25	clgv	or at least 1.7.1 if you do not want to migrate to 2
04:25	tomoj	clgv: for developers, no additional benefit
04:26	tomoj	for some ops people? dunno..
04:26	clgv	tomoj: is leiningen part of you software installation?
04:26	clgv	I am shipping uberjars ;)
04:26	josteink	antares_: oh I no. I was just replying to clgv's comment about going with a distro's defaults and not being up to date ;)
04:27	josteink	oh i know
04:27	tomoj	me too
04:27	tomoj	maybe some hudson server though?
04:28	tomoj	s/hudson/jenkins/
04:29	clgv	tomoj: ah well, I didn't setup something like that yet
04:30	tomoj	really I just imagine there are sysadmins who would get angry if they ever had to `lein upgrade`
04:31	tomoj	I don't sympathize
04:31	clgv	probably. but then you'd need some ppa-package for ubuntu to get the latest leiningen ^^
04:31	tomoj	huh. https://launchpad.net/~technomancy/+archive/leiningen
04:32	clgv	hmm nothing in there yet
04:33	antares_	there is someone who helps us get Lein2 into next Ubuntu and Fedora releases
04:34	tomoj	quantal?
04:41	antares_	yes
04:57	frawr	Hello
04:58	frawr	Can anyone tell me what the idiomatic way to make ajax calls is in clojurescript?
05:07	tomoj	frawr: the only idiomatic thing I know of is to use closure
05:07	tomoj	well, among some it is idiomatic to use jayq
05:10	frawr	I found some other examples using clojure. going to try these now. thanks.
05:11	frawr	And I thought using jQuery was discouraged. not jayq?
05:11	lpetit	clgv: hello
05:11	tomoj	I'm not sure it's discouraged
05:11	clgv	frawr: noir has some remote features.
05:11	tomoj	discouraged by whom?
05:11	clgv	lpetit: hello
05:11	tomoj	jayq just wraps jquery
05:11	lpetit	clgv: are you using Eclipse Juno ?
05:12	tomoj	I guess it might look like jquery was discouraged because of the discussion about it
05:13	tomoj	but I _think_ that was mostly people getting angry because "closure", and the cljs team defending that choice
05:13	clgv	lpetit: no, not for production yet. I experimented with it at home. the REPL-issue happens with 3.7
05:14	tomoj	closure can't optimize jquery, but if you agree that using a cdn means jquery is free, no problem
05:15	clgv	tomoj: there was a statement by chris granger in his jayq lib
05:15	lpetit	clgv: ok, because I'm adding some trace statements using the Eclipse tracing facilities. Prior to Juno, activating the traces from the user side requires to start Eclipse with a -debug flag as well as specifying the location of a file containing debug options. Starting with Juno, it is possible to dynamically change the trace options from the Preferences.
05:15	tomoj	yeah
05:15	tomoj	pretty convincing
05:16	tomoj	my coworker thinks "if we don't use jquery we'll have to spend months rewriting it and its ecosystem"
05:16	tomoj	I dunno if I agree but jayq makes him easier to convince
05:18	frawr	for this project i don't really care about optimization.
05:19	tomoj	just make sure you keep jquery's wrongness wrapped up tight :)
05:19	frawr	in a seperate ns?
05:20	tomoj	I mean, try not to let the nonfunctional parts of it infect everything
05:20	tomoj	dunno how much jayq already helps with that
05:22	frawr	Aah, i see. Well I just need to make a simple ajax call and that's all. Could even do it the vanilla way but I wanted to learn the right way
05:22	tomoj	hmm
05:23	tomoj	I don't think there is a very good way to deal with anything asynchronous in cljs yet anyway
05:23	tomoj	you lose dynamic bindings for example (hopefully that doesn't matter for you..)
05:24	frawr	nope =)
05:26	clgv	tomoj: but you'd loose those bindings in clojure as well
05:27	tomoj	but clojure has bound-fn
05:27	frawr	hmm, how do they influence one another?
05:27	clgv	ah right. that on captures those explicitely?
05:27	tomoj	yeah
05:30	frawr	btw, does anyone know where to look for a clojure internship?
05:30	tomoj	where are you located?
05:30	frawr	The Netherlands, but I'd prefer an overseas internship
05:31	tomoj	does that mean you want to go somewhere or telecommute?
05:31	frawr	go somewhere
05:31	tomoj	mind if I PM you?
05:31	frawr	Go ahead
06:35	tomoj	I just realized you can type ";; foo" on the first line of a slime repl entry
06:35	tomoj	then use that as a bookmark in history
06:44	Kototama	hi, if I have the string of a JS method, how can I invoke it on the object in ClojureScript ?
06:44	Kototama	something like (.method obj) but where method is a variable
06:45	Bahman	Kototama: Convert it to symbol and then call it.
06:58	qRR7	Bahman, how does one do that?
07:11	hyPiRion	josteink: Why not fire up tramp?
07:11	astrax	qrr7. I'm pretty much a newbie so might be way off but try ((str "." variable) obj)
07:12	qRR7	astrax, you mean ##((symbol ".method") obj)
07:12	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: obj in this context
07:12	qRR7	Well, let's give ##((symbol "+") 1 2 3)
07:12	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: Symbol
07:13	hyPiRion	heh
07:13	hyPiRion	symbol != function
07:13	qRR7	Indeed
07:13	qRR7	I'm pretty sure if that was possible the entire scoping model of the langauge would be pretty fucked
07:14	clgv	&((resolve (symbol "+")) 1 2 3)
07:14	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! resolve is bad!
07:14	hyPiRion	you'd have to run eval to get that working. Though
07:14	qRR7	eval is about as evil as republicans, don't use, don't vote, and don't let your daughter marry it.
07:14	clgv	well, lazybot doesnt like it but it works
07:15	qRR7	clgv, so like, resolve is a spcial form or a function
07:15	clgv	function.
07:15	hyPiRion	a function which maps symbols into functions
07:15	clgv	it resolves the symbol to a variable using the current scope
07:15	qRR7	As in, wha does (let [+ *] (resolve (symbol "+"))) evaluate to?
07:16	qRR7	to addition or to multiplication?
07:16	clgv	(let [+ ] (resolve (symbol "+"))) => clojure.core/+ and (let [+ '] (resolve +)) = clojure.core/*
07:17	qRR7	So it doesn't resolve to the current scope and rather it's a pure function?
07:17	qRR7	Then there's honetly not a lot wrong with it.
07:17	qRR7	It just maps symbols to functions, random pure function
07:17	clgv	it depends on the state of the namespace so it is not pure
07:18	clgv	if you excluded clojure.core/+ and used my.lib then it would resolve to my.lib/+ provided you define + there
07:20	qRR7	Hmm, well, you can define your own my-resolve with identical behaviour if you watn right?
07:54	clgv	qRR7: you want to redefine resolve? why?
08:02	bpr	is there a way to get nrepl to re-load the data_readers.clj file?
08:03	bpr	i'd rather not have to ensure i've got data-readers bound properly
08:05	tomoj	well there are some private functions in clojure.core that can work
08:09	bpr	yeah, i'm checking on that now
08:09	bpr	thanks
08:12	tomoj	seems problematic
08:13	tomoj	I don't think you can do it straightforwardly in the repl
08:13	tomoj	at least with swank, the second load-data-readers call does work, but you don't see the root value
08:13	tomoj	so you still get the old readers
08:15	tomoj	nrepl clone would probably preserve the old readers too?
08:15	tomoj	maybe there's a way to start a new session that would work?
08:16	bpr	yeah, it might come down to that
08:18	Kototama	Bahman: (let [x (symbol "introduction")] (.x js/ich)) does not work
08:23	josteink	the bad thing about running lein on a core i7 or a xeon
08:23	josteink	is that you really have no idea how heavy it is ;)
08:29	clgv	Kototama: it wouldnt work in clojure as well like said before. you have to resolve the symbol
08:47	Kototama	clgv: but how do you invoke it with interop??
08:47	lazybot	Kototama: Definitely not.
08:47	Kototama	(.resolved-sym obj) ??
08:47	lazybot	Kototama: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
08:49	clgv	Kototama: not with the short cut interop but with the longer version: (. obj (resolved-sym))
08:52	Kototama	humm I get an error in clojurescript with (let [+ *] (resolve (symbol "+")))
08:52	Kototama	whereas it works in clojure
08:52	ro_st	resolve isn't in cljs
08:52	ro_st	none of the ns stuff is
08:54	Kototama	ok but then, sorry to ask again, but is there a way to invoke a JS method if I have its name as a string?
08:54	ro_st	anyone hosting datomic on heroku?
08:55	ro_st	Kototama: i fought this battle and lost. i ended up manually populating an atom with string -> fn mappings
08:57	Kototama	hum ok maybe i'll just create a JS function that does that and invoke it from clojurescript but it's disapointing
09:05	ro_st	it's because the (ns) form in cljs is completely different to clj
09:05	ro_st	it's just a wrapper on top of google closure's provide/require
09:06	Kototama	but it makes something common in JS impossible to do in ClojureScript, that's not good
09:07	ro_st	it's a moot point anyway because advanced compilation completely renames everything anyway
09:07	`fogus	ro_st: I don't think Heroku is officially targeted (yet)
09:07	ro_st	`fogus: right now the plan is two reserved micro ec2 instances (a HA pair) for the datomic transactor and then two hk web dynos with peers
09:07	tomoj	Kototama: ((aget js/console "log") "hello")
09:08	`fogus	ro_st, Kototama: Can externs not help you in this case?
09:09	ro_st	`fogus: no. he wants to store eg "my.app.name.space/fn" somewhere and then later find that fn in memory using that string. good old obj[ var ] won't work because adv compilation will munge those pretty names away
09:09	tomoj	not if you export :/
09:10	`fogus	Doh! I said the wrong thing. I meant export
09:10	Kototama	tomoj: this result in an illegal invokation
09:10	`fogus	(defn ^:export foo []...)
09:10	tomoj	oh right
09:10	`fogus	!!
09:10	`fogus	Dang.
09:10	tomoj	(.call (aget js/console "log") js/console "hello") ?
09:11	ro_st	true. in my case, i don't like having internal fns exposed.
09:11	Kototama	actually i'm using the icanhaz library and templates are dynamically binded to to the ich object when loaded, so invokations take the form ich.templatename(arguments)
09:11	tomoj	(but if it's a cljs fun, don't need to do that)
09:14	Kototama	your last code works
09:14	Kototama	thank you very much
09:28	Cheiron	Hi, I have an atom (a {:a [] :b [] :c []}) how to add an item to a collection under a key (for example :a) ?
09:29	clgv	Cheiron: (swap! a update-in [:a] conj item)
09:31	Cheiron	clgv: Thanks!
09:34	@rhickey	results from Friday's cond-> name game are here: https://gist.github.com/3885504 - feedback welcome
09:38	`fogus	Oh man! I love #clojure name games. Sorry I missed it
09:48	TimMc	rhickey: It would be really nice to see an example with each of those.
09:49	TimMc	OK, so when-> is a short-circuiting test-> ?
09:50	@rhickey	TimMc: no, test has test expressions and when is conditional on the threaded value itself
09:50	TimMc	And let-> is like a -> with explicit stitching location?
09:50	@rhickey	test-> when->
09:50	TimMc	Oh, I see it now.
09:51	@rhickey	yes, let-> just binds and you have to thread using the bound name yourself
09:51	clgv	rhickey: nice. I currently need something like that to conditionally add to a sequence
09:52	clgv	that's similar to when-> but would need a predicate on the element to add
09:55	TimMc	let->'s naming is a little curious, since it can be used as -> or ->> or a "mix" of the two. I guess there's not much to do about that.
09:56	clgv	TimMc: mabye let=> ? ;)
09:57	clgv	oh I misread test-> - that seems what I want right now ;)
09:57	pjstadig	i've got clojure emitting invokedynamic callsites for instance method reflection
09:59	clgv	rhickey: so when-> and when->> are the new names for -?> and -?>>
09:59	@rhickey	clgv: sort of, they use ordinary when logic, not nil? test
09:59	@rhickey	but ? was dubious in those names as implies boolean
10:00	clgv	ok :)
10:06	djanatyn	:)))
10:06	ebaxt	Hi! Anyone know if the template support (https://github.com/brentonashworth/one/wiki/Design-and-templating) in ClojureScript One is available in a standalone lib?
10:07	djanatyn	the teacher of my java class just told us that instead of submitting java source code, we can just send her a class file
10:07	dnolen	cemerick: do you have a :scope example? - core.logic users won't all get datomic since project.clj isn't really used by anyone but core.logic devs ... yet.
10:07	`fogus	ebaxt: No
10:07	djanatyn	so, if she's got some sort of testing code that runs the main method of a class, what do I need to do for her to be able to run my code?
10:07	Gosh	How do you do for(coll){if(cond) break} ? My current solution is (not (nil? (seq (filter #(< % 0) '(1 2 3 4 -1)))))
10:07	ebaxt	`fogus: OK, thanks
10:07	djanatyn	do I just put (:gen-class) in the namespace declaration, and create a function named "main"?
10:08	cemerick	dnolen: oh, I forgot it was a contrib -> mvn :-)
10:08	djanatyn	or do I need to bundle clojure with everything?
10:08	cemerick	dnolen: just [com.datomic/datomic-free "0.8.3551" :provided "true"] should do it
10:08	cemerick	wait, sorry
10:08	cemerick	dnolen: [com.datomic/datomic-free "0.8.3551" :scope "provided"]
10:09	cemerick	copy/paste error
10:09	dnolen	cemerick: thx
10:11	clgv	djanatyn: (:gen-class) and (defn -main ...)
10:11	clgv	Gosh: you want the shortened seq as result?
10:11	pjstadig	still very much a work in progress https://github.com/pjstadig/clojure/commit/8e42c823d3703c8fd4265a1d54caf9f5a68e7ec1
10:12	pjstadig	2x faster than plain reflection, an order of magnitude slower than type hinting
10:12	pjstadig	i think there's still some performance to be eeked out, though
10:12	djanatyn	clgv: where will that class file generate?
10:12	djanatyn	can I just send her a class file, or do I need to send a jarfile after I do lein's uberjar
10:13	clgv	well if you develop in clojure and AOT you better send a jar since you will get a lot of classes
10:13	djanatyn	heh, okay
10:15	clgv	djanatyn: but ask yourself what will she do if your sent in application does not work? with no sourcecode it's either 100% points or 0 points ;)
10:15	pjstadig	there's a whole calculus of MethodHandles that i known next to nothing about (but I'm learning)
10:20	`fogus	pjstadig: Thanks for helping to make Clojure relevant again! https://twitter.com/headius/status/251336909333348353
10:25	pjstadig	hehe
10:25	clgv	`fogus: haha :D
10:31	zerokarmaleft	Gosh: perhaps you want take-while?
10:32	clgv	$karma zerokarmaleft
10:32	lazybot	zerokarmaleft has karma 1.
10:32	zerokarmaleft	clgv: now i have to change my registered nick
10:33	clgv	well, I just wanted to check ;)
10:34	zerokarmaleft	curious how I even got a single point, since I rarely pipe up in here
10:44	TimMc	`fogus: Is Clojure a "new JVM language"? :-)
10:45	pjstadig	https://twitter.com/headius/status/251474597633998849
10:46	`fogus	I don't know. But I've talked to Charlie about this topic and I think he'd have no qualms making an exception for Clojure in that case. :-o
10:49	uvtc	Strings seem to act like they're sequential, ex. `(doseq [i "hello"] (println i))`. But then why does ##(sequential? "hello") return false?
10:49	lazybot	⇒ false
10:49	S11001001	uvtc: try seqable? from core.incubator
10:51	uvtc	Mm. https://github.com/clojure/core.incubator/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/incubator.clj#L77
10:52	TimMc	uvtc: They're not sequential?, but they're seq'able.
10:52	clgv	&(seq "hello")
10:52	lazybot	⇒ (\h \e \l \l \o)
10:52	uvtc	So there's ISeq, Sequence, and now I see there's a Sequable.
10:52	clgv	&(type (seq "hello"))
10:52	TimMc	You can do ##(first "hello") because it calls 'seq on the arg
10:52	lazybot	⇒ \h
10:52	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.StringSeq
10:53	TimMc	seq special-cases strings.
10:53	uvtc	Right --- I'm familiar with each type having its own seq type.
10:53	uvtc	TimMc: Oh, interesting.
10:53	TimMc	You can't use an interface test because Java doesn't allow post-hoc interface implementation.
10:54	goracio	hi is there alternative to curl in clojure ? i found slurp but if i want to get image then how to convert string to file ?
10:54	TimMc	uvtc: Same deal with arrays.
10:55	uvtc	TimMc: I see. Haven't had to touch arrays from Clojure yet.
10:55	TimMc	goracio: You mean, get the image data?
10:55	uvtc	Thanks all.
10:55	goracio	yep when i use slurp i get string of bytes i guess
10:56	goracio	TimMc: yep when i use slurp i get string of bytes i guess
10:57	TimMc	You'll have to find a lib that can parse image formats.
10:57	TimMc	Java standard library might provide that...
10:57	goracio	hmm maybe there is alternative to slurp ?
10:58	goracio	something like curl
10:59	TimMc	goracio: Are you just trying to write it all to file on disk?
10:59	uvtc	goracio: https://clojars.org/clj-http ?
10:59	goracio	yes - what i need to get file and write it to local directory
11:00	goracio	already looked at that
11:00	goracio	it gets all the session
11:00	TimMc	I could come up with a solution, but I suspect others already know a better answer.
11:01	@rhickey	pjstadig: that's cool - too bad it took them until Java 7 to get it in and probably 8+ to make it fast.
11:01	pjstadig	rhickey: yeah
11:01	pjstadig	i ran it on a java8 build
11:02	pjstadig	no dramatic performance improvement yet
11:02	@rhickey	right
11:02	pjstadig	i wonder if i could be setting up the MethodHandles differently though to get better performance
11:02	pjstadig	looking around at the JSR292 cookbook and such
11:03	@rhickey	pjstadig: one problem you'll have is that the underpinnings of that stuff is all going to change, and with it the perf profile
11:03	pjstadig	rhickey: not sure what you mean by "underpinnings"? you mean on the JVM site?
11:03	pjstadig	side*
11:04	@rhickey	yes, John Rose presented a whole new plan for that at JVM language summit
11:04	pjstadig	i see
11:04	@rhickey	essentially when the optimizer doesn't, it falls to an interpreter
11:05	@rhickey	so he's making the intepreter something the JVM can optimize, vs now which is a lot of native code
11:06	@rhickey	The whole thing is full of promise, but I disagree with Charlie that this is something people should be using now for langs they intend for people to use now on JVMs they are using now.
11:06	pjstadig	rhickey: the "Lambda Forms" talk from 2012?
11:06	@rhickey	pjstadig: I think so
11:06	goracio	TimMc: https://github.com/gorsuch/clojure-curl-spike/blob/master/src/clojure_curl_spike/core.clj
11:07	pjstadig	rhickey: sure agreed, but sun keeps trying to deprecate java6...eventually the "JVM they are using now" will support invokedynamic :)
11:07	goracio	TimMc: :use [clojure.java.shell :only (sh)] and then (apply sh (curl-command url)) maybe that will work :)
11:07	@rhickey	yes, but 7 doesn't well at this point, then we wait for 8 and oracle to pressure them into that
11:08	clgv	pjstadig: not used to oracle owning java now? ;)
11:08	pjstadig	haha
11:08	pjstadig	oops
11:08	TimMc	goracio: I'm sure you could do something less hacky with inputstreams and outputstreams.
11:08	pjstadig	yeah i meant oracle
11:09	@rhickey	the most interesting applications of invokedynamic for Clojure are not reflection sites, but dynamism in vars and protocol dispatch
11:09	@rhickey	and keyword dispatch
11:10	pjstadig	rhickey: yeah reflection seems like an easy first target, but type hinting is probably always going to be faster
11:10	@rhickey	pjstadig: exactly
11:10	pjstadig	though it would be nice to have a faster default than reflection
11:10	pjstadig	maybe i'll experiment with vars or protocol fns next
11:11	pjstadig	i was thinking of trying to tackle multimethods, but you think it would be better to start with vars and/or protocol fns?
11:11	chronno	goracio: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11321264/saving-an-image-form-clj-http-request-to-file
11:12	@rhickey	pjstadig: multimethods are likely to remain dominated by the fact that you must call the dispatch function
11:12	@rhickey	since you don't know what aspect of the args matter to it, and thus can't setup a guard
11:13	@rhickey	vs say known binary dispatch on class
11:13	TimMc	Can you do something with the knowledge that a lot of multimethods dispatch on :type? :-)
11:14	@rhickey	TimMc: possibly, but :type is broader than class
11:15	goracio	chronno: thanks will look at that
11:40	antoineB	hello is it possible to access a var given a string? (in clojurescript)
11:42	antoineB	i can use (js* "the.complete.name"), but i don't know how to get the current namespace
11:44	Chousuke	doesn't clojurescript have 'resolve?
11:44	clgv	seems not. that was discussed earlier today
11:50	@rhickey	now with examples: https://gist.github.com/3885504
11:50	@rhickey	anyone opposed to/confused by names etc?
11:57	clgv	rhickey: oh, test-> can't refer to the expr threaded through in its tests?
11:58	@rhickey	clgv: no
11:59	@rhickey	I had a version that could, not sure how often it would get used
12:00	clgv	rhicky: a version that can should probably have predicate like (fn [threaded, form-result] ...) to be general
12:01	mpenet	rhickey: test-> sounds like something that would be part of a testing library, it could be confusing.
12:02	lpetit	rhickey: let-> does not have the same symmetry as the others. Would let->> mean something?
12:04	clgv	I'd change the 'name in let-> to first position as it would be in (let [x 10] ..)
12:05	duck11231	does let-> support destructuring?
12:05	lpetit	duck11231: seems so, but you'd need the restructuring to work for each step
12:06	duck11231	right, that's still better than nothing
12:06	yazirian	i agree with clgv, let-> has its args backwards
12:06	lpetit	duck11231: hmm, no
12:07	Sgeo	Oh hey, the ordering of let-> does mean that it could be used within -> as far as I can tell
12:07	lpetit	duck11231: name must be a symbol, it's the returned value in the body of the macro-expanded let
12:08	lpetit	I see little value in let->, anyway
12:10	@rhickey	Sgeo: yes, that's a big objective of let->
12:11	Sgeo	rhickey, is being comfortably usable from within -> also an objective, because it seems to do that too
12:11	@rhickey	lpetit: let-> solves the problem of all threaded forms not first or last
12:11	lpetit	rhickey: I see it now
12:12	@rhickey	gets rid of libs like this: https://github.com/pallet/thread-expr/blob/develop/src/pallet/thread_expr.clj#L40
12:12	@rhickey	erm, https://github.com/pallet/thread-expr/blob/develop/src/pallet/thread_expr.clj
12:13	Sgeo	Hmm, what's letfn?
12:13	duck11231	so, when-> is meant to replace -?>
12:13	@rhickey	duck11231: well, -?> is not in core, but covers same ground yes
12:14	@rhickey	the ? stuff is a mismatch with anypred?
12:14	@rhickey	all of which are boolean
12:14	Sgeo	How about a monad->
12:14	Sgeo	Replace Enlive's do-> (I think)
12:16	@rhickey	Sgeo: link?
12:16	antares_	Clojure docs project progress report, week 1: http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2012/10/15/clojure-documentation-project-progress-report-the-week-of-october-14th/
12:16	Sgeo	Erm, I don't know of anyone who's defined a monad->, but do-> is defined https://github.com/cgrand/enlive/blob/master/src/net/cgrand/enlive_html.clj#L653
12:17	Sgeo	I _think_ that do-> expresses the Reader monad, but I'm not sure, I haven't looked at it closely enough
12:18	lpetit	clojure.core.incubator/-?> stops threading when threaded value becomes nil, not falsy. Beware semantic regressions when time comes to migrate
12:18	zerokarmaleft	rhickey: nitpick, it seems inconsistent to have the binding order in let-> as expr name instead of name expr
12:18	@rhickey	zerokarmaleft: that's to facilitate its use within ->, and the reason it doesn't take a vector of pairs
12:19	@rhickey	lpetit: understood, but who threads booleans?
12:20	zerokarmaleft	ah, i see
12:22	zerokarmaleft	sorry, should've read scrollback
12:24	lpetit	rhickey: -?> was initially introduced to help threading interop calls, who know what does guys do with it ;)
12:24	lpetit	s/does/those/
12:25	@rhickey	lpetit: they don't have to switch. wehn-> does what it says on the tin
12:25	@rhickey	when->
12:25	duck11231	I can see a potential use with threading boolean values. Less of a use for nil-sfe threading of those values
12:27	@rhickey	lpetit: but we don't yet have an alternative universe of not-nil boolean logic. I've thought about is? == not nil?, and things like is->, brings up when-is, if-is etc
12:27	lpetit	sure, I just wanted to highlight the corner case, 'cause of course once it's out the door, there will first be a word spread on when-> supersedes -?>, and then later "work for bloggers" explaining the pitfalls of looking not closely enough at what one does with respect to the other :) (and in the end, I'll be all for deprecating -?>)
12:29	@rhickey	lpetit: an alternative is that wehn-> would be nil?-based, but will that cause it's own confusion?
12:29	@rhickey	its
12:30	duck11231	considering that difference. I can see the need for both of them. It's like how keep doesn't replace (comp filter identity)
12:30	lpetit	rhickey: yes, probably, since when works for falsy values.
12:31	@rhickey	my guess is, given when->, no one will ever need the other
12:31	jlongster	dnolen: is :import supported in `ns` in ClojureScript?
12:31	lpetit	rhickey: the ? in -?> had not this confusion, since it was intended to be a reminder of what is found in object oriented languages such as groovy with foo?.bar?. etc.
12:31	dnolen	jlongster: it is
12:32	lpetit	rhickey: I bet on it also
12:32	lispnik	hello. could someone enable me on clojure-dev and the dev.clojure.org jira? my CA was received a few weeks ago
12:32	jlongster	dnolen: ok, the "differences" wiki page doesn't mention and differences but I'm getting the error "Only lib.Ctor specs supported in :import" for a simple line: (:import [ctco.expr.simple Simple])
12:33	jlongster	I can continue to hack on it if the error isn't immediately obvious
12:33	dnolen	jlongster: did you try [ctco.expr.simple.Simple] ?
12:34	gfredericks	so I guess test-> won the cond-> battle?
12:34	@rhickey	gfredericks: that's what's being discussed, yes
12:34	jlongster	dnolen: I did not, still not very familiar with all of the different forms for namespaces
12:34	jlongster	same error
12:35	gfredericks	these macros look quite useful
12:35	dnolen	jlongster: heh, it takes some time to figure out - tho really that's unnecessary if you want to use Simple in ClojureScript.
12:36	dnolen	jlongster: we added :import mostly for making GClosure ctors more pleasant to work w/.
12:37	jlongster	dnolen: ok, I'll keep playing around with it. What do you mean that it's unnecessary though? Simple is a local, user-defined record in a difference file
12:37	jlongster	*different
12:38	dnolen	jlongster: :import is about foreign ctors (read ... not Clojure)
12:38	jlongster	ah, ok
12:38	dnolen	jlongster: so just :require foo and you can write foo/Simple in your file.
12:40	jlongster	yeah, it seemed that :import was used so that you could just write (Simple. foo) instead of (foo/Simple. foo)
12:40	jlongster	https://github.com/cjfrisz/clojure-tco/blob/master/src/ctco/util.clj#L29
12:40	jlongster	anyway, I'm learning by assumptions here so I'll go read the real docs.
12:41	dnolen	jlongster: you can :use foo and Simple will work.
12:41	dnolen	jlongster: if it doesn't that's a bug.
12:41	jlongster	ok, I'll try that
12:41	dnolen	jlongster: :use :only to be precise
12:41	jlongster	how come Chris uses :import there?
12:42	dnolen	jlongster: because Clojure JVM types/records are backed by Java classes.
12:42	jlongster	aah, ok. thanks!
12:42	dnolen	jlongster: doing that is a bit of antipattern - better for Chris to provide fns and not import types/records like that.
12:43	jlongster	ok
12:44	hugod	rhickey: pallet-thread will continue to exist. As far as I can tell the new macros don't cover the same use case.
12:46	@rhickey	hugod: I don't see it - most of those are covered (better) by let->
12:46	@rhickey	that lib special cases a bunch of constructs for use in ->
12:46	@rhickey	let-> supports all constructs
12:47	@rhickey	hugod: It's fine if it still exists of course :)
12:51	jcrossley3	weavejester: quick sanity check, please: the :context key in the ring request should return an empty string "" for an app mounted at the root context, right?
12:51	weavejester	jcrossley3: I believe it's nil
12:52	weavejester	jcrossley3: But nil and "" should be treated the same in this case, since a blank path prefix is the same as no path prefix.
12:53	jcrossley3	weavejester: so consider redirecting to a context-relative path: (redirect (str (:context request) "/some/path"))
12:53	jcrossley3	that should work for "" or nil
12:53	weavejester	jcrossley3: Right
12:53	jcrossley3	weavejester: is there some helper somewhere that does that or is that just a known convention?
12:54	weavejester	jcrossley3: Hiccup has a base-url binding, but there isn't any helper because :context is currently just a Compojure convention.
12:55	weavejester	jcrossley3: However, I'm planning on adding it to Ring for version 1.2 since it's worked well as a de-facto standard.
12:55	jcrossley3	weavejester: good :)
12:55	weavejester	jcrossley3: I'm toying with the idea of setting a context binding, but I'm not certain yet.
12:57	dnolen	rhickey: in the codeq podcast you mentioned there were some features in the CLJS analyzer that that you would like to see worked into codeq, anything specific?
12:57	jcrossley3	weavejester: how would that be more convenient than just having :context as a standard request key?
12:57	amalloy	i have to say i like let-> now that i've thought about it a bit. it's not that useful on its own (right?), but it's a great way to introduce some steps into a -> pipeline using some construct that doesn't ordinarily fit into the ->, like a for-comprehension: (-> x (blah) (let-> ys (for [y ys] (foo y))))
12:58	amalloy	which i think is what hugod's stuff in pallet-thread is for?
12:59	Sgeo	It could be useful on its own I think, if the place to thread through varies a lot
12:59	Sgeo	I could be wrong
13:01	@rhickey	amalloy: right
13:01	weavejester	jcrossley3: You wouldn't need to pass the request map or context explicitly when creating a resource with URIs
13:01	@rhickey	dnolen: I think we need to factor analysis a bit more, breaking out the js-isms
13:01	amalloy	Sgeo: certainly possible. i don't think that's nearly as common, especially because let-> means the name would have to stay the same: how often will it make sense to call something "xs" three or four times, and thread it through at a different spot?
13:02	weavejester	jcrossley3: If you think about all the links on a HTML page and how often you'd need to pass the context to them
13:02	@rhickey	dnolen: in particular for codeq, we want an interpreter for ns forms that works completely i nthe analysis/environment space, not by affecting namespaces
13:02	weavejester	jcrossley3: Also, just to clarify, the :context and :path-info keys wouldn't be part of the base Ring SPEC, but would be added by Ring middleware.
13:03	weavejester	jcrossley3: Like :params is added by wrap-params, but isn't in the Ring SPEC
13:03	TimMc	amalloy: That's an argument for keeping the initial-value arg in the first position in let->
13:03	@rhickey	then we could e.g. figure out the aliases created by ns, and attempt to resolve names in usages cases via a walk
13:03	TimMc	(Earlier someone was proposing having the binding name go first, which makes a different sort of sense.)
13:03	amalloy	TimMc: of course; that's where rich put it. is there some movement to change it? i don't think that's a good idea
13:03	@rhickey	the ultimate target is to add uses to definitions
13:03	@rhickey	usages
13:04	@rhickey	this fn calls these others
13:04	jcrossley3	weavejester: that's cool. i guess i'm just equating the :request key to the servlet spec's getContextPath, which is kind of a punt, forcing the dev to dictate when it's used.
13:04	@rhickey	macroexpansion aside
13:04	pooya72	So I feel like I walked into a room full of clojure celebrities ;) rhickey, dnolen, weavejester... me >:)
13:04	hugod	rhickey: the pallet-thread macros thread through the body of each of the forms - I'll have to try using the new macros, but I don't see how let-> replaces them (yet)
13:04	technomancy	I wonder if you could define a print-method for namespaces
13:04	@rhickey	hugod: let-> binds the name, it's use in the forms is transparent and requires no work
13:05	@rhickey	its, darn fingers
13:05	dnolen	rhickey: gotcha
13:06	Sgeo	How is let-> significantl better than pallet-thread's arg-> ?
13:06	@rhickey	arg-> requires a []
13:07	@rhickey	thus not composable
13:08	@rhickey	or, I guess it is , just ugly
13:08	@rhickey	very surprising to me that given its presence, the rest of the lib exists
13:09	@rhickey	that lib gives me a headache
13:11	Sgeo	I think the idea is that in the body of the other macros, the -> form still acts like it's in effect
13:11	@rhickey	Sgeo: It's too complicated for me
13:12	Sgeo	I think binding-> is the easiest to understand
13:12	Sgeo	Example-wise
13:12	@rhickey	pallet-thread aside, looking for final feedback before I push this into core
13:13	@rhickey	for latecomers, this being: https://gist.github.com/3885504
13:17	amalloy	rhickey: the docstring for test-> could maybe use something clarifying that the tests are not threaded into
13:21	`fogus	rhickey: I apologize for arriving late to the party and potentially repeating someone else, but I'd love to see an example use in each docstring.
13:21	@rhickey	amalloy: what would you guess otherwise? thread-firsting into predicates?
13:21	amalloy	rhickey: that's something i might guess, yes
13:22	gfredericks	I remember TimMc having that sort of impression initially the other day
13:25	@rhickey	`fogus: we don't do that elsewhere. Perhaps one day we'll have an :example entry per fn
13:25	`fogus	rhickey: Fair enough. I only ask because the examples are much easier for me to understand than the words. :-(
13:26	@rhickey	there are examples at the bottom of the gist
13:26	`fogus	Yep, those are the examples that I mean
13:26	@rhickey	else wait, codeq will show you examples in the wild soon enough :)
13:28	hyPiRion	Documentation is the semantics of a function or macro, examples explain the documentation.
13:28	`fogus	rhickey: Speaking of, it seems that every time the Datomic team releases something you solve some massive issue that I was encountering the week before. Thanks for that.
13:29	@rhickey	`fogus: that's good!
13:29	`fogus	You're helping me to fool my co-workers into thinking I'm some kind of genius! ;-)
13:29	@rhickey	amalloy: is this enough? (refresh) https://gist.github.com/3885504
13:30	amalloy	looks good to me
13:31	`fogus	RIP Phil Bagwell. http://blog.typesafe.com/rip-phil-bagwell
13:31	`fogus	Sad
13:32	pjstadig	wut?
13:32	pjstadig	that is sad
13:32	uvtc	I just read about luriel on HN. Too many of these lately. :(
13:33	pjstadig	i had a good time talking to phil at the conj
13:34	`fogus	Same here
13:35	yazirian	same here, had lunch with him, he was cool
13:39	Raynes	R.I.P. He gave me good advice and excellent conversation
13:40	@rhickey	We all owe Phil
13:40	pjstadig	is there information about a cause of death?
13:52	olabini	Raynes: yeah, me too.
14:08	iwillig	is there an easy way to go from a structs.Map to a clojure map ? js->clj seems to return the stucts.Map
14:25	XPherior	Does anyone have a few minutes to help me review a read-me I wrote for a project? I want to make sure it makes sense.
14:25	nDuff	XPherior: You'd have a better chance of volunteers if you posted a link -- easier to decide whether to do an in-depth review of something when one can skim it first.
14:26	XPherior	Okay, nDuff. https://github.com/MichaelDrogalis/zombie
14:28	nDuff	...so, some small quibbles: - assuming that everyone uses lein (it's sad, but not everybody can; see: projects w/ Maven dependencies, shops standardized on other build tools, &c); - assuming familiarity w/ QuickCheck (a line or two describing _how_ it's similar might be helpful).
14:28	nDuff	...the actual library usage and examples seem clear.
14:29	XPherior	I did kind of gloss over those things, yeah.
14:29	oskarth	when I pull down a new dep with lein deps, my nrepl says it can't locate class on classpath, but when I restart nrepl process it works. How do I tell nrepl to update without me restarting it manually?
14:29	XPherior	That's good to hear that. It's kind of a different concept. Wanted to make sure the examples conveyed what the library is about.
14:30	XPherior	oskarth: I don't think you can. You need to restart the JVM, IIRC.
14:30	hiredman	oskarth: you cannot, unless you add a dependency on pomegranate
14:30	oskarth	I see. And what's the easiest way to do that from emacs?
14:31	oskarth	feels like I'm doing something wrong everytime I force quit it
14:31	XPherior	I think you just jack-in again? Maybe?
14:32	oskarth	hm, that bugs if I have the same buffer name, but it works if I rename my current one
14:32	oskarth	works well enough though. Thanks :)
14:34	hiredman	nrepl.el is not as pleasant to work with as slime+swank-clojure for all technomancy has deprecated swank-clojure
14:34	XPherior	Sure thing, oskarth
14:34	hiredman	it is very rough
14:37	djanatyn	how can I get a keyword to evaluate to, uhh, a value that is bound?
14:37	djanatyn	(let [foo 10] (frobify :foo)) ;=> 10
14:37	TimMc	Keywords aren't used to refer to values.
14:37	amalloy	djanatyn: don't do it, man
14:37	djanatyn	haha, I was thinking I might be doing it wrong
14:38	Sgeo	That foo doesn't really exist, I think
14:38	TimMc	There may technically be a way, but I might technically have to throw things at you.
14:38	XPherior	This is not the foo you were looking for.
14:38	arrdem	ah the joyous cries of "you're doing it wrong"...
14:38	ghadishayban	rhickey: any advice for taking a first whack at CLJ-1082, reducing over subvecs of primitive vectors?
14:38	Sgeo	I think all instances of it in the let (including in the expansion of macros) could be replaced with bar with no effect
14:38	TimMc	djanatyn: What are you trying to work around?
14:39	amalloy	shrug it's totally possible, if you only want it to work for literal keywords; but in that case it's not very useful
14:39	Sgeo	I guess you could make a macro to scan for let and make those available in a dynamic var
14:39	amalloy	Sgeo: madness
14:39	djanatyn	TimMc: I'm trying to build a tiny object oriented system in clojure to have fun with macros
14:39	amalloy	(defmacro frobify [k] (symbol k))
14:40	XPherior	Eeek, objects. Run.
14:40	arrdem	XPherior: ppft. they're not so scary.. just overgrown k->v maps
14:40	XPherior	Objects put me in fostercare.
14:41	djanatyn	I think I'm going to give up on this for now anyway
14:41	djanatyn	closures are fun
14:41	Sgeo	Why am I now reading Scala documentation?
14:41	TimMc	XPherior: :foo is an object. :-)
14:41	XPherior	I choose to ignore hat, TimMc :)
14:41	XPherior	That*
14:41	Sgeo	Scala has macros these days, doesn't it?
14:53	ebaxt	How can I "refresh" the class path so that nrepl sees newly added dependencies?
14:54	TimMc	I'm starting to think that sould be added to the top of the README, if it isn't already...
15:04	TimMc	ebaxt: Restarting nrepl, or using pomegranate.
15:05	ebaxt	TimMc: Thx :)
15:07	Raynes	<shamelessplug> http://blog.raynes.me/blog/2012/10/12/help-fund-my-trip-to-the-conj/ </shamelessplug>
15:19	Sgeo	Uh
15:19	Sgeo	Apparently I am utterly confused about &env
15:21	Sgeo	djanatyn, hi
15:21	Sgeo	I might actually be able to write frobify
15:24	mindbender1	djanatyn: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Mixin-based-Inheritance on the difference between a programming language and a programming system
15:24	TimMc	Sgeo: It would be pointless, since the keyword would have to be specified as a literal.
15:24	TimMc	You couldn't do (let [foo 5 x :foo] (frobify x))
15:24	amalloy	Sgeo: i already showed how to do it the pointless way TimMc is talking about, and a non-pointless way is not possible
15:24	amalloy	or, i guess maybe that's not true
15:24	Sgeo	TimMc, by making a macro that does stuff with &env, I should be able to get both keys and values in a data structure
15:25	amalloy	Sgeo: the values won't be useful to you, because they're compile-time values
15:25	amalloy	but you could expand to (case kw :foo foo, :bar bar), for all locals known to be in scope
15:25	TimMc	Haha, nice.
15:25	Sgeo	amalloy, I accidentally expanded to the values in my experimentation
15:26	Sgeo	Dangit I just closed my command prompt
15:26	amalloy	(defmacro frobify [k] `(case ~k ~@(for [sym (keys &env), clause [(keyword sym) sym]] clause)))?
15:27	amalloy	yes, that works
15:28	Sgeo	Should be able to return a map with some fooling around, I think
15:28	Sgeo	(Expand to a map)
15:28	amalloy	Sgeo: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12502933/expression-that-returns-all-currently-scoped-symbols-in-clojure/12504032#12504032
15:29	Sgeo	Ahh, I was going to work it out myself
15:29	Sgeo	*Aww
15:30	amalloy	feel free to not read the implementation, mate
15:30	Sgeo	Too late.
15:30	Sgeo	But it does some extra stuff that I'm not looking at, so
15:31	`fogus	Sgeo: It's great fun to work this stuff out. I occasionally add little nuggets to my Evalive project as they dawn on me (or when I understand what the heck is happening)
15:31	Sgeo	Evalive?
15:32	`fogus	https://github.com/fogus/evalive
15:33	Raynes	`fogus: wtfn
15:34	Raynes	`fogus: You're my hero.
15:34	`fogus	That was Alan Dipert's idea, I only named it ... he deserves all praise and/or hate
15:35	Sgeo	https://www.refheap.com/paste/5885
15:35	Sgeo	^^my solution
15:36	amalloy	Sgeo: (into {} (for...))
15:36	Sgeo	Oh, that would probably be better
15:36	Sgeo	Thanks
15:36	Sgeo	WTF is Persona?
15:37	Sgeo	Some sort of proprietary OpenID-like thing?
15:39	Sgeo	https://www.refheap.com/paste/5886
15:44	Sgeo	djanatyn, ^^
15:45	lpetit	Raynes: ping
15:46	Raynes	lpetit: Howdy partner.
15:46	lpetit	Raynes: howdy. I just filled my modest contribution to your fundraiser. Just wanted to let you know.
15:47	Raynes	I see! Thank you very much, kind sir!
15:47	lpetit	You deserve it.
15:47	Raynes	Hardly modest!
15:48	lpetit	Raynes: compared to what I should have invested to go myself, it is. Everything's relative :)
15:48	Raynes	Haha
15:49	lpetit	Was just a quick hello, now's time to go to bed for me, see ya
15:52	Raynes	Night!
15:53	TimMc	Raynes: Persona still doesn't support Firefox password manager.
15:53	Raynes	Evil.
15:55	jlongster	TimMc: the ultimate goal is to have Persona integrated into Firefox itself. Also, the idea is to get rid of passwords, so password manager is kind of a different thing anyway
15:56	Sgeo	And no integration with OpenID?
15:56	TimMc	As long as I don't have to remember the damn ID, whatever.
15:57	TimMc	s/ID/password/
15:57	Raynes	I used personas because it's easy and I'm lazy. Not much else to say there.
15:57	jlongster	Sgeo: no, it's a much different (and not broken) tool
15:57	Raynes	:p
15:57	Sgeo	How is OpenID broken?
15:57	jlongster	TimMc: you very rarely do, if ever
15:57	Raynes	I think I'll just defer any criticism to this jlongster fellow from now on. He seems hip on the matter.
15:58	TimMc	jlongster: ?
15:58	jlongster	Raynes: hah, well, disclaimer: I work for Mozilla
15:58	TimMc	Are you saying that I'd have another password to remember, but would only be prompted to enter it very rarely?
15:58	amalloy	more of a disclosure than a disclaimer
15:58	Raynes	Awesome. I'll definitely defer criticism to you.
15:58	TimMc	Because in that case I'd definitely forget it.
16:00	TimMc	jlongster: On a more important note, do you know of any work being done to establish automatic, behind-the-scenes credentials generation between browser and server?
16:00	jlongster	TimMc: I'm not involved in Persona, so I can't really argue in details right now. You shouldn't ever have to "log in" unless you use a different computer, where you can either enter a password or get a link in your email you just click on.
16:01	jlongster	TimMc: what kind of credentials?
16:02	TimMc	User: Yeah, sign me up on this site with username JRH. Browser: Hi google.com, I'd like to register with username JRH and password o9anyc2ocnh29y5c9h8265. Server: Okey-doke.
16:03	TimMc	And then the password is automatically saved off, and the user can login with the click of a browser button.
16:03	jlongster	No, I don't know of anything like that. Persona is the architecture Mozilla is investing in.
16:04	TimMc	Hmm, OK.
16:04	jlongster	There'd have be a standard for that (outside of Mozilla), and I haven't even heard of a standard protocol
16:07	TimMc	Throw in another protocol for automatic email verification and you'd take almost all the pain out of registration.
16:19	jakov	what is the opposite of (eval)
16:19	jakov	you give it an expression and it changes it into a string representingit
16:21	brehaut	,(doc prn-str)
16:21	clojurebot	"([& xs]); prn to a string, returning it"
16:21	Iceland_jack	prn-str: porn star?
16:21	emezeske	,(pr '(some forms here))
16:21	clojurebot	(some forms here)
16:22	`fogus\|away	The opposite of eval would be Byrd and Friedman's interpretter that plays expressions in reverse
16:22	jakov	pr sends it to stdout im fairly sure
16:23	jakov	is there a way to make it a string
16:23	justin`	marcellus
16:23	justin`	woops
16:23	emezeske	,(pr-str '(some forms here))
16:23	clojurebot	"(some forms here)"
16:23	jakov	ok
16:23	jakov	oh wait somebody said
16:23	jakov	but i didnt understand
16:24	TimMc	jakov: THe opposite of pr-str is read-string; I'm pretty sure the "opposite of eval" is not well defined.
16:24	brehaut	jakov: do you want the opposite of read or eval?
16:24	jakov	TimMc iv just realised i asked the wrong question
16:25	jakov	i wanted the opposite of read-string
16:25	jakov	but people answered anyway... strange, they knew what i meant
16:25	TimMc	:-D
16:26	justin`	I'm having a brain fart. I have a vector that looks like ["a" 1 2 3 "b" 5 5 6 "c" 4] and I need to turn it into a map that looks like {"a" [1 2 3] "b" [5 5 6] "c" [4]}. I basically need to use recursion to solve this, correct?
16:26	Sgeo	,(doc eval)
16:26	clojurebot	"([form]); Evaluates the form data structure (not text!) and returns the result."
16:26	Sgeo	What lexical environment does eval run in?
16:27	Sgeo	The empty one I guess
16:28	Sgeo	user=> (let [a 1] (eval '(get-lexical-env)))
16:28	Sgeo	{}
16:28	brehaut	justin`: start with ##(partition-by string? ["a" 1 2 3 "b" 5 5 6 "c" 4])
16:28	lazybot	⇒ (("a") (1 2 3) ("b") (5 5 6) ("c") (4))
16:28	amalloy	justin`: step 1 is a clearer spec. what do you do if any of the values need to be strings?
16:37	justin`	amalloy: good point! actually the values will all be strings but the "keys" will be of predictable value so partition-by is what I was looking for, thanks brehaut. I had a feeling I was forgetting something
16:38	nDuff	If I'm manually creating a Thread object -- is there a way to copy the current set of thread-local bindings over to it?
16:38	AtKaaZ	hi, how do you call this feature of clojure that it doesn't require explicit typing(types) ie. for functions params and stuff like that
16:38	hyPiRion	AtKaaZ: Dynamic?
16:39	Sgeo	I would call it dynamic typing
16:39	brehaut	nDuff: bound-fn?
16:39	AtKaaZ	ok, I'm making a list of bad side-effects of that :))
16:39	nDuff	AtKaaZ: We already know.
16:39	AtKaaZ	I mean, it's good, but it can be evil
16:40	nDuff	AtKaaZ: ...People who see that as a serious problem that are already not using Clojure.
16:40	AtKaaZ	nDuff, I'd agree, but you have to have some experience in clojure to be able to track down errors due to that
16:40	Sgeo	Stack traces in Clojure are annoying :(
16:40	AtKaaZ	especially since they are not explicitly taken care of
16:42	nDuff	Sgeo: There are some libraries that prettify them.
16:42	amalloy	nDuff: i don't agree. dynamic typing causes serious problems, and yet here i am. static typing causes serious problems too
16:43	nDuff	amalloy: Fair point. "A sufficiently serious problem to justify using another language" would have been more clear.
16:43	AtKaaZ	like this one: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/datomic/uIhKawJWL7o/gJ4doDknYfkJ
16:43	AtKaaZ	no definitely no use another languange, none is that good (didn't try haskell tho)
16:44	amalloy	just as wrong, though. you don't need any justification to use another language. if you wanted to say that, you would say "sufficiently serious problems to preclude using clojure", but then it's a useless sentence: people who hate clojure's features enough to not use it, are not using it
16:44	AtKaaZ	Sgeo, cool, which do you like most?
16:44	technomancy	amalloy: isn't that what nDuff said though?
16:44	Sgeo	AtKaaZ, at the moment, Clojure, but my whims are subject to change at a moment's notice.
16:45	hyPiRion	So what's the normal argument against dynamic typing? That it causes more bugs because you don't know the type of a value you're receiving or passing?
16:45	ystael	When I type the name of a class in my code, where in Clojure is the code that decides what Class object becomes the value of this symbol?
16:45	technomancy	hyPiRion: certain classes of error are invisible until runtime
16:46	Sgeo	hyPiRion, the idea is that static typing will catch classes of bugs for you sooner.
16:46	AtKaaZ	Sgeo, haha, well for me clojure(+datomic) seems to be the lang I so dearly needed to do what I wanted to do before but failed in langs like cpp,js,php+sql,java+bdb
16:47	hyPiRion	Sgeo: So the idea is that having the overhead of static typing is better because you'll have less bugs.
16:47	hyPiRion	technomancy: My personal opinion is that those errors are the hard ones, and that errors that have to do with types are more like small "fuckups".
16:47	brehaut	hyPiRion: the overhead of static typing is always a tradeoff, and whether it is better or not depends where the code in question falls on that scale
16:48	hyPiRion	/s/errors/bugs
16:48	nlew	Not the "overhead". Static typing is an additional tool to model your problem.
16:48	technomancy	hyPiRion: yeah, nobody really makes that argument for languages like Java that don't have type inference, but in languages like Haskell and OCaml, the cost is much, much lower
16:48	Sgeo	hyPiRion, not "less" bugs, but you'll find out about the bugs sooner. It's like turning a logic error into a syntax error.
16:48	technomancy	hyPiRion: if you don't have experience in a type system, then you won't know how to structure your programs in a way that the type system can catch larger-scale bugs
16:49	hyPiRion	technomancy: Ahh, gotcha.
16:49	technomancy	*if you don't have experience in a good type system
16:49	technomancy	Java doesn't count
16:49	brehaut	hyPiRion: http://matt.might.net/articles/intro-static-analysis/
16:49	hyPiRion	Sgeo: Okay, so that's the rationale.
16:49	AtKaaZ	not sure if it's just dynamic typing at work, but this is the list of issues encountered so far: https://gist.github.com/3895312
16:50	brehaut	AtKaaZ: nothing about that would be solved with static types
16:50	AtKaaZ	do you mean the hash-map part? brainproxy
16:51	AtKaaZ	oops, brehaut
16:53	Sgeo	,(hash-map {:a 1 :a 2})
16:53	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: :a>
16:53	AtKaaZ	,(source hash-map)
16:53	clojurebot	Source not found
16:53	Sgeo	What is meant by (hash-map {:a 1 :a 2}) works?
16:53	hyPiRion	,(hash-map :a 1 :a 2)
16:53	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: :a>
16:54	hyPiRion	shrugs
16:54	AtKaaZ	,(. clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap (create {:a 1 :a 2}))
16:54	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: :a>
16:54	AtKaaZ	Sgeo, on 1.5.0 alpha6
16:54	AtKaaZ	as in, it doesn't except
16:55	Sgeo	I don't see how that last one would be solved in a statically-typed environment
16:55	nlew	It seems to for me
16:55	nDuff	AtKaaZ: ...can't say I see how that's a static typing problem.
16:55	hyPiRion	Hah, it's this discussion again
16:55	hyPiRion	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Allow+duplicate+map+keys+and+set+elements
16:56	AtKaaZ	Sgeo, nDuff, you're probably right, let me recheck and see why I added it
16:56	emezeske	What does that have to do with static/dynamic typing?
16:56	AtKaaZ	nlew, it throw now for me too, wonder why it worked yesterday hmm
16:57	amalloy	the newest 1.5 release is more lenient on calls to hash-map, hash-set, array-map, array-set, and probably the sorted maps/sets as well
16:57	amalloy	as specifically requested by many users
17:01	TimMc	\o/
17:02	emezeske	/o\
17:02	AtKaaZ	I can't believe it, I can't get it to work (anymore) on either Clojure 1.5.0-alpha6 or 1.5.0-master-SNAPSHOT
17:03	AtKaaZ	which means, it always shows duplicate key
17:04	amalloy	AtKaaZ: what you got working before was (hash-map :a 1 :a 2), not (hash-map {:a 1 :a 2})
17:04	AtKaaZ	oh right
17:04	AtKaaZ	thanks so much amalloy
17:05	AtKaaZ	does that make it dynamic typing issue? possibly?
17:06	amalloy	no, so far just you being excited about the word dynamic
17:06	hyPiRion	AtKaaZ: Reverse it: How would static typing help?
17:07	TimMc	,{:a 1 :a 2}
17:07	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: :a>
17:07	TimMc	^ That's a compile error, i.e., static.
17:07	AtKaaZ	maybe I didn't ask the right question at first, this type of coding is somewhat specific to clojure, and it's like relaxed coding, not caring to make sure the params are right or all conditions met
17:07	S11001001	AtKaaZ: you can't make sure all conditions are met anyway
17:07	AtKaaZ	so I should've asked, what's that called?
17:08	TimMc	Program proof of correctness? :-)
17:08	AtKaaZ	S11001001, maybe at least as much as I'd do in java
17:08	TimMc	Or lack thereof.
17:08	nlew	AtKaaZ: What would you prefer Clojure did in this case? I'm confused what you think the issue is.
17:08	AtKaaZ	timmc, sounds relevant, I feel that it's a little less in clojure than it was in java though
17:08	AtKaaZ	nlew, check for duplicate keys I guess, and throw
17:09	nlew	Isn't that exactly what it's doing?
17:09	S11001001	AtKaaZ: does java prevent you from initializing a HashMap with duplicate keys, at compile time?
17:09	AtKaaZ	nlew, in 1.5.0 alpha 6 (hash-map :a 1 :a 2) doesn't throw
17:09	AtKaaZ	S11001001, probably not?
17:09	S11001001	AtKaaZ: i.e., what happens when you Map<String,String> x= new Map<>(); x.add("hi", "42"); x.add("hi", "84");
17:09	AtKaaZ	didn't check
17:10	AtKaaZ	overwrites?
17:10	S11001001	AtKaaZ: I know what happens, but how about trying it out in javac and seeing what happens
17:10	S11001001	new HashMap, whatever
17:10	AtKaaZ	but I mean, in clojure since {:a 1 :a 2} is not allowed, it would be inconsistent(?) to allow (hash-map :a 1 :a 2)
17:11	S11001001	AtKaaZ: no, hash-map is a function, {} is syntax
17:11	brehaut	(let [a :a b :a] (hash-map a 1 b 2))
17:11	brehaut	what should happen there?
17:11	AtKaaZ	so I felt like that check was ommited simply as a side-effect of clojure-style coding
17:12	AtKaaZ	,(macroexpand (let [a :a b :a] (hash-map a 1 b 2)))
17:12	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: :a>
17:12	AtKaaZ	,(let [a :a b :a] (hash-map a 1 b 2))
17:12	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: :a>
17:12	AtKaaZ	,(macroexpand '(let [a :a b :a] (hash-map a 1 b 2)))
17:12	clojurebot	(let* [a :a b :a] (hash-map a 1 b 2))
17:12	brehaut	AtKaaZ: dont evaluate it; i could obviously have done that myself. think about it
17:13	brehaut	if that became (let [a :a b (complex-expression-that-evaluates-to-:a)] …) would you still expect the same result?
17:13	AtKaaZ	ok I'm failing :)
17:13	AtKaaZ	yes
17:13	AtKaaZ	the throw i mean
17:13	brehaut	and what about in a literal
17:13	AtKaaZ	what's that?
17:14	brehaut	{a 1 b 2}
17:14	AtKaaZ	same I guess, doesn't the literal call something like put behind the scenes?
17:14	jamii	is there a way to test if something is a record?
17:15	AtKaaZ	brehaut, that literal still throws in clojure 1.5.0 master
17:16	brehaut	i personally dont give a rats arse what an alpha does. unfinished things are by definition unfinished
17:17	AtKaaZ	brehaut, ok, maybe it's a temporary bug, since it threw in earlier version, but I feel it's meant as a feature
17:17	brehaut	it can well be a feature
17:17	dnolen	jamii: clojure.lang.IRecord
17:17	jamii	dnolen: thanks
17:18	AtKaaZ	,(alength {:a 1 :b 2})
17:18	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: alength>
17:18	AtKaaZ	,(.size {:a 1 :b 2})
17:18	clojurebot	2
17:19	mindbender1	In the beginning was a list of things
17:20	S11001001	mindbender1: did it contain all things?
17:21	hyPiRion	Well, if it was a list of things in Clojure, then the list didn't contain itself.
17:21	mindbender1	S11001001: an operation was defined that allowed that to happen
17:21	AtKaaZ	he probably means all things in the subsystem, so not the list itself (assuming it resides in the parent system)
17:22	S11001001	hyPiRion: speak for yourself. ##(let [xs (to-array [42]) xs' (vec xs)] (aset xs 0 xs') xs')
17:22	lazybot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
17:23	S11001001	hyPiRion: (xs' is a vector whose only element is itself)
17:23	AtKaaZ	the list is in the same subsystem
17:23	oskarth	I have a macro that defines functions that takes an arg maps. What would be an idiomatic way to access these keys?
17:23	amalloy	jamii: that's only as of a very new version of clojure, though
17:23	oskarth	outside of the function that is
17:24	arohner	what is the preferred vim plugin for clojure these days?
17:24	hyPiRion	S11001001: Neat. Doesn't look like an intended feature though
17:24	dnolen	amalloy: wasn't in 1.4.0?
17:24	amalloy	&clojure.lang.IRecord
17:24	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.IRecord
17:24	jamii	amalloy: thats ok, I'm targetting 1.4 anyway
17:24	hyPiRion	Have you some hacks for maps or sets too? I've been unable to do that.
17:24	S11001001	hyPiRion: it was intentionally not fixed
17:24	amalloy	oh, apparently it was. my mistake
17:24	S11001001	so in that sense, it's intentional
17:24	hyPiRion	S11001001: Ah.
17:25	AtKaaZ	,((fn [ & all] {:pre (= 1 2 ) } 0 ) 'a)
17:25	clojurebot	0
17:25	AtKaaZ	can't have :pre ?
17:25	dnolen	oskarth: not sure what you mean
17:27	jkkramer	,((fn [& all] {:pre [(= 1 2 )]} 0 ) 'a) ;see http://clojure.org/special_forms#fn
17:27	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: (= 1 2)>
17:28	AtKaaZ	jkkramer, much appreciated thanks
17:28	oskarth	dnolen: trying to write a mock HDL, and I've a defchip macro that takes a map of pins on the chip. I want to be able to do (get-args mychipfn) and have it return a list of the keys I used to define that chip, but not sure about how to approach it
17:29	Sgeo	It suddenly occurs to me that that form of pre and post condition bothers me
17:29	Sgeo	Suppose I have a macro that puts arbitrary maps at the beginning of function definitions for some reason
17:30	Sgeo	Suddenly, it's asked to place a map with keys :pre and :post
17:30	Sgeo	Boom, things break
17:30	AtKaaZ	they do?
17:30	emezeske	oskarth: Couldn't your macro do two defs -- one for the function itself, and one for the arg map?
17:30	dnolen	oskarth: neat you should chat with dgrnbrg :)
17:30	dnolen	oskarth: another option I like if you can bear giving up various fn arg sugar - reify IFn,
17:31	oskarth	emezeske: yeah, that's one approach indeed
17:31	AtKaaZ	that map with :pre is it part of the function code ?
17:31	TimMc	&((fn [] {:pre false})) ;; no problemo
17:31	lazybot	⇒ {:pre false}
17:31	dnolen	oskarth: fn metadata as well
17:31	dgrnbrg	oskarth: hello!
17:31	oskarth	hi dgrnbrg!
17:31	AtKaaZ	TimMc, I take that as a yes? :)
17:31	dgrnbrg	oskarth: I've been writing an HDL in clojure for the past 10 months
17:32	oskarth	dnolen: how does reify IFn work?
17:32	oskarth	I like the metadata idea
17:32	TimMc	AtKaaZ: Nope. "part of the function code" doesn't mean anything to me.
17:32	oskarth	dgrnbrg: oh, cool!
17:32	dgrnbrg	https://github.com/dgrnbrg/piplin is the project
17:32	AtKaaZ	TimMc, it means pretty much like Sgeo implied
17:32	dgrnbrg	It allows you to essentially write normal clojure code, but it generates special structures that can be simulated or synthesized to verilog
17:33	oskarth	neat
17:33	dgrnbrg	it also adds a flow-typing system, so that you can encode type compatibility and promotion rules, and control the bit representation of types
17:33	AtKaaZ	TimMc, actually I take that back, seems harmless
17:33	oskarth	sounds quite advanced - I started doing this as an exercise in writing a DSL as I'm working through elements of computing systems
17:34	dgrnbrg	it has pattern matching for union types, allows you to use destructuring for composite datatypes
17:34	dgrnbrg	it's got tons of extension points as it's an open system, so that you can implement things like complex fixed point arithmetic as a library
17:35	jcromartie	hiya everybody
17:35	jcromartie	I'm doing some trivial game dev stuff in Clojure, and trying to work out a sensible foundation
17:35	AtKaaZ	Sgeo, now I get what you mean, like if your function returns a map with :pre ... let me test
17:35	dgrnbrg	and it's designed to use as a base for HDL synthesis, so that you could write a higher level hdl and compile/eval as piplin, which would give you cycle simulation and synthesis to verilog
17:36	oskarth	ah
17:36	AtKaaZ	ok not returns:)
17:38	oskarth	dgrnbrg: is there a write-up or so of it somewhere? looking through the code some but have a hard time grokking it all (esp not coming from a hardware background)
17:38	Sgeo	AtKaaZ, if I make a macro that expands to (fn [stuff] <some map here> more stuff)
17:38	dgrnbrg	oskarth: I have made some work in that direction, but I haven't finished the fully writeups. There's a lot of mostly correct information on the wiki
17:38	oskarth	ok, will have a look :)
17:38	dgrnbrg	although I refactored the namespaces so they aren't accurate
17:39	dgrnbrg	also, if you look at the examples/ folder, that has simple examples
17:39	dgrnbrg	the basic structure is this:
17:39	dgrnbrg	types.clj has the type/promotion system hooks in it, and types/*.clj are all the type implemenatitons
17:39	AtKaaZ	Sgeo, I see that if I make it a function , probably due to laziness, the return value is ignored so no map is returned ie. ((fn [] (evilprint) 1 ) )
17:39	dgrnbrg	sim.clj has a simulation engine, modules.clj has a way to make verilog-style modules
17:40	dgrnbrg	verilog.clj is the verilog output backend
17:40	emezeske	Sgeo: Ever hear the story about the patient that complained to her doctor that her arm hurt when she twisted it backwards ackwardly? The doctor said, "don't do that."
17:40	AtKaaZ	Sgeo, even as a macro looks like, ie. (defmacro evilprint [] `{:pre [false] }) ((fn [] (evilprint) 1 ) )
17:40	dgrnbrg	vcd.clj has a vcd file outputter
17:40	Sgeo	I just don't like the special casing
17:40	dgrnbrg	if you look at the tests, they exercise most of the functionality of most of the parts, so that you can see how specific features can and cannot be used
17:41	dgrnbrg	and oskarth--i respond very quickly to email about piplin :)
17:41	dgrnbrg	if something's unclear, i'll be happy to write up a wiki page on it for you (and everyone else); it's hard to know what to document and work on w/o guidance from users/potential users
17:41	oskarth	ok nice :)
17:42	Sgeo	(fn [] {:blah foo} (comment Im just a normal function))
17:42	Sgeo	(fn [] {:post foo} (comment oops))
17:42	dnolen	dgrnbrg: so I notice you have some tests where it looks like you benchmark piplin against Icarus?
17:43	dgrnbrg	dnolen: actually, those tests run piplin & run piplin's synthesized output in icarus, to confirm they're cycle-accurate
17:43	dgrnbrg	that my simulation model and verilog's simulation model haven't diverged in the ways that I want to guarentee :)
17:43	dnolen	dgrnbrg: gotcha
17:44	dgrnbrg	there's a much faster simulator in the pipeline (compiles directly to jvm bytecode), but that's not ready yet
17:44	dnolen	dgrnbrg: so remind, is the goal to make an language more expressive / easier to use than verilog ?
17:44	dnolen	dgrnbrg: wow
17:45	AtKaaZ	Sgeo, that :pre it seems harmless even if as macro, am I missing something maybe?
17:46	dgrnbrg	Verilog is terrible for expressiveness and for typing. VHDL is terrible for expressiveness, too (but has a decent type system). I want to use the power of a real programming language to generate the hardwar estructures
17:46	dgrnbrg	for instance, it's not that hard to write a software version of a CLOS network, but it's quite hard to implement it in hardware
17:46	dgrnbrg	I want to unify those descriptions, but still generate the same circuit as if you'd hand-optimized it
17:46	dnolen	dgrnbrg: crazy stuff ;)
17:47	dgrnbrg	plus, as ola bini talked about @ strange loop, macro languages are more powerful than non macro languages
17:47	dgrnbrg	and by embedding an HDL in clojure, you get macros, so the world becomes your oyster
17:48	amalloy	Sgeo: yes, if you do something crazy like put maps inside the body of functions you know nothing about, then sometimes for certain maps you will get behavior you didn't want
17:48	amalloy	but there is no reason to ever do the former, so why worry?
17:49	AtKaaZ	amalloy, but I can't reproduce that
17:50	AtKaaZ	help?:)
17:55	TimMc	Sgeo: I share your concern in quality but not in quantity, if that makes any sense.
17:55	TimMc	(comment ...) is a problem anyway -- it should be preceded by a #_
17:57	AtKaaZ	it's not possible to pass the arguments as they are inside a function in clojure right? ie. (func 1 2 3) and inside func they are passed to someotherfunc as 1 2 3 not '(1 2 3) or seq
17:57	AtKaaZ	but with macros is possible
17:58	Sgeo	AtKaaZ, hmm?
17:58	AtKaaZ	ok let me rephrase, sec
17:58	AdmiralBumbleBee	AtKaaZ: you could just use apply
17:58	Sgeo	Not sure _exactly_ what you're asking, but it sounds possible.
17:58	AtKaaZ	,((fn [& all] (hash-map all)) :a 1 :a 2 :b 3)
17:58	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: (:a 1 :a 2 :b ...)>
17:58	AtKaaZ	that should show what I mean
17:59	AtKaaZ	,(hash-map :a 1 :a 2 :b 3)
17:59	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: :a>
17:59	AtKaaZ	that is needed
17:59	AdmiralBumbleBee	,((fn [& all] (apply hash-map all)) :a 1 :b 2 :c 3)
17:59	clojurebot	{:a 1, :c 3, :b 2}
17:59	AdmiralBumbleBee	that is what you want correct?
18:00	AtKaaZ	no way, lol, that's exactly right
18:00	AtKaaZ	why did I think that's not possible?
18:00	Sgeo	Too used to Haskell?
18:00	Sgeo	:p
18:00	AdmiralBumbleBee	because clojure does that sometimes :)
18:00	AtKaaZ	i didn't use it at all, but I remember I once wanted this few days back, and didn't find the solution
18:01	AtKaaZ	thanks for the eye opener, AdmiralBumbleBee
18:01	AdmiralBumbleBee	sure :)
18:01	AtKaaZ	(inc AdmiralBumbleBee)
18:01	lazybot	⇒ 1
18:02	AdmiralBumbleBee	I lost all my inc's from switching nicks, how sad
18:03	AtKaaZ	now if only I could find out what I tried back then... which would benefit from this knowledge that I got now (should be something within last 5 days)
18:04	AtKaaZ	does ccw permanently save repl history ? or does anyone know of a repl logger?
18:06	mindbender1	,(partition 0 [:i :am :cruel])
18:06	clojurebot	(() () () () () ...)
18:07	Sgeo	,(partition-all 0 [:i :am :cruel])
18:07	clojurebot	(() () () () () ...)
18:08	Sgeo	,(partition-all 0.5 [:i :am :cruel])
18:08	clojurebot	((:i) (:am) (:cruel))
18:08	mindbender1	,(> 0.5 0)
18:08	clojurebot	true
18:22	gtrak	what do I do if I want something like the agent's 'await' but more recursive. I want something that would also wait for jobs dispatched by the awaited jobs. Is that possible/stupid?
18:23	AtKaaZ	I hate me, but let's move on :)
18:24	AtKaaZ	agent within an agent?
18:24	gtrak	obviously there can be no cycles
18:24	gtrak	yea
18:24	gtrak	a single agent
18:25	gtrak	but a 'send' within a job running on the agent pool
18:26	gtrak	if i can figure out what the last thing will be, that's a good fit for promise/deliver, but i think it could be more generalized, and I hope the answer isn't 'write something custom around countdownlatch'
18:28	gtrak	but now that I'm thinking through it, I think the dependency-graph needs to be defined outside of the agent
18:28	gtrak	hrmph
18:29	AtKaaZ	sounds good to me
18:30	gtrak	so I will find the leaves... but how do I know if they will be realized?
18:30	gtrak	or... I guess I can't. my head hurts
18:32	AtKaaZ	so you have a parentjob which calls other jobs ? but you don't know which jobs until you execute the parentjob?
18:51	gtrak	AtKaaZ: yea
18:51	gtrak	It might just be an impossible problem..
18:52	gtrak	there's no way to find out which one's going to run last, I can either guess, or know which ones are going to run and use a latch on them.
18:53	Sgeo	You can't run them all and use whichever returns the latest?
18:53	gtrak	Sgeo: how do I know there are no later ones at the point that I'm at?
18:53	gtrak	you identify the data-dependency... and wait for that, I think that's the right answer
18:53	Sgeo	Oh, I thought you knew all the ones that would run when you start them
18:53	Sgeo	AFK
18:54	gtrak	Sgeo: almost
18:55	gtrak	you can't know on message level, but you can bind it to a particular message with a promise, which is what I did naturally anyway, but the only way to know that all of those kinds of things are done, is to additionally keep some state around keeping track of initial jobs and if they've finished or not
18:56	gtrak	assuming the kinds of job of interest all start from the same thread, that would work
18:57	gtrak	I can make that map thread-local or global
18:59	AtKaaZ	sounds like functional programming? each job is a function which contains some elemental code mixed in with calls to other jobs(optionally); all running on a single thread, serially
19:01	gtrak	a stack's a lot like a queue, yea
19:01	gtrak	but the point of async is the controlled decoupling
19:01	gtrak	which is a requirement here
19:02	gtrak	hmm... the key difference is the queue has multiple entry points and it multiplexes its execution, that's what makes it non-deterministic
19:03	AtKaaZ	like a pmap?
19:03	gtrak	sure, but pmap is all parallel, they run on a thread-pool but there's no data dependencies
19:04	gtrak	element 2 doesn't depend on the answer for element 1
19:04	AtKaaZ	ok so you have like a root queue of jobs, which are likely to be executed by multiple threads, cause I imagined they executed sequentially so far
19:04	gtrak	right
19:04	gtrak	they're popped off sequentially at any rate
19:05	gtrak	and in terms of the queue they're sequential with respect to each other
19:06	AtKaaZ	so like one thread pops job1 and executes; thread2 pops jobs2 and executes but if job2 depends on job1 then you want it to wait for it? still unsure that I got it
19:06	gtrak	yea
19:07	gtrak	rather... thread1 pushes job1, job1 pushes job2, I want thread1 to wait for job2, without having to explicitly pass in a promise somewhere
19:07	AtKaaZ	can it just skip job2 until thread1 is done with job1 and instad do next job3?
19:07	AtKaaZ	oh i see
19:08	gtrak	if thread1 pushes 2 jobs, the order might be job1 job2 job1.1 or job1 job1.1 job2
19:08	gtrak	I want it to wait for whatever the last one happens to be
19:08	gtrak	if I do await in the first case and time it wrong, job 1.1 happens afterwards
19:09	gtrak	where job 1.1 is a job pushed by job1 :-)
19:10	AtKaaZ	right, but you say that thread2 can take the next job while thread1 is busy waiting for job1 to finish?
19:10	gtrak	yes
19:11	gtrak	the problem I'm trying to solve is how to notify thread1 that job2 and job1.1 have both run, without requiring that they both run in the first place :-). I think the answer is, at the conditional that decides to push job 1.1, I need to push up the latch
19:11	AtKaaZ	ok so in that case thread2 can take job2 because job1 didn't yet push job1.1 even if it pushes it after job2 or before job2, which would mean thread2 should probably know if job2 depends on job1 else it would take it
19:11	gtrak	if I know it's going to run..
19:12	gtrak	yea, but there's a race condition
19:12	gtrak	hmmm.
19:12	gtrak	the answer is... do everything that affects the queue with continuation-passing style
19:13	gtrak	maybe..
19:13	gtrak	haha
19:13	AtKaaZ	what does that mean?
19:13	gtrak	thread1 should only dispatch a single job, but pass it a continuation to dispatch another at its leisure
19:13	gtrak	that would serialize the order of the jobs once again
19:15	gtrak	instead of agents, I would use futures, basically
19:15	gtrak	futures within the single agent
19:15	gtrak	top-level agent
19:15	AtKaaZ	I think I lost it, lol, but job1.1 depends on the previous code executed prior to it inside job1 ? ie. has to wait for that code to execute before it being launched?
19:15	gtrak	yea
19:16	gtrak	haha, I will think about this some more, but it is very helpful to talk through it :-)
19:17	AtKaaZ	ok so basically each job in the queue should be executed serially until completion, even if it launches subjobs they are to be executed serially too(ie. likely by the same thread executting the parent job no?)
19:17	gtrak	yea
19:17	AtKaaZ	but jobs in queue may depend on each other
19:18	AtKaaZ	ok i think i got it so far
19:18	gtrak	it can be asynchronous from the perspective of the top-level thread, but I can hide the details and serialize its execution
19:18	gtrak	de-multiplexing
19:19	gtrak	i think that's the right answer, sorry to confuse you and run :-)
19:19	AtKaaZ	it's all good afaic;)
19:20	gtrak	thx
19:46	timsgardner	anyone know good ways to constrain printing in clojurescript, ala print-level, print-length?
19:48	emezeske	timsgardner: Unfortunately I think the answer to your question is "add such a feature to clojurescript's printer"
19:49	holo	hi
19:49	emezeske	holo: hallo
19:52	timsgardner	emezeske: yeeeah, thought it might be… ho hum
20:22	mattmoss	I'd appreciate some eyes on this: https://gist.github.com/3896521
20:22	mattmoss	Don't know what's going on there.
20:27	xeqi	mattmoss: add a second set of parens around the (fn ..)
20:29	mattmoss	xeqi: Ahhh...! Thanks... I need a brain update.
20:54	nsxt	any guides for putting nginx in front of a clojure app?
20:55	hiredman	just do it?
20:55	nsxt	hahaha
20:55	emezeske	nsxt: I don't think there's anything clojure-specific about it; just proxy_pass (or whatever) to the port your clojure app is listening on
20:56	nsxt	i ask because i came across this http://wiki.nginx.org/JavaServers and was wondering if i had to deploy it in a certain fashion
20:57	nsxt	but i'm guessing it's just a matter of "lein ring server" (in the case of compojure) and then config nginx to proxy_pass it over
20:59	hiredman	I like lein ring uberwar + jetty-runner, but it seems like a lot of people get by with lein ring server and similar
21:02	brehaut	apparently im behind the times. theres lein ring support? and a jetty runner
21:02	brehaut	;
21:07	nsxt	emezeske, hiredman: thanks, that was too easy and now i am slightly ashamed of myself
21:36	lynaghk`	dnolen, ohpauleez: do you know of anyone who has had luck doing ClojureScript with IE8?
21:37	technomancy	hiredman: why uberwar rather than uberjar?
21:38	ohpauleez	lynaghk: What sorts of things? We have ran an IE-compat on some of our stuff and it seemed fine. Internally we do WebKit specific stuff for one app. Are you seeing weird issues
21:38	technomancy	brehaut: I just use ring-jetty-adapter's run-jetty in -main
21:38	brehaut	technomancy: likewise
21:38	brehaut	with a horrible bash script in init.d
21:38	amalloy	technomancy: war+jetty lets you use jetty's container-based features, like running multiple apps in a single jvm
21:38	brehaut	(really i should look at supervisord or something)
21:39	amalloy	for personal use i just lein run; at work we deploy wars into the jetty container
21:39	lynaghk`	ohpauleez: we've got a fully completed app that is blowing up IE8 and I didn't know if it was some of our libs or something in cljs itself. Sounds like core should be fine then, eh?
21:40	brehaut	amalloy: thats good to know
21:40	technomancy	brehaut: upstart makes daemonization pretty easy
21:40	technomancy	clojars has a good example of a simple setup for that with a fallback JVM
21:41	technomancy	amalloy: hm cool; makes sense for more complicated deploys
21:42	ohpauleez	lynaghk: I'm almost certain core is fine. email detail errors if you want me to look into it. I know some people have IE compat issues with certain functionality (browser repl) and libraries (enfocus)
21:42	amalloy	technomancy: also makes for more complicated deploys
21:42	technomancy	heh; yeah
21:42	amalloy	jesus god i spent all day today helping lance debug our deploy script as part of upgrading from cake to lein
21:43	amalloy	but, i think we successfully deployed our first lein-built artifact
21:44	technomancy	nice
21:44	lynaghk`	ohpauleez: thanks. More of a hypothetical at this point; I'm happy with my current IE strategies: "Chrome Frame" or "HELL NO".
21:45	dnolen	lynaghk: I've never heard of any problems recently.
21:45	dnolen	I haven't I mean.
21:45	lynaghk`	dnolen: yeah, I got the sense it was more issues with DOM stuff that we're doing.
21:46	dnolen	lynaghk`: I know there a couple of users have posted IE bugs - but it's been a while since we've seen those.
21:46	brehaut	technomancy: im struggling to find the upstart config. SYSADMIN.md suggests im looking for clojars.conf somewhere?
21:47	brehaut	technomancy: however, i cant seem to find that file
21:59	Sgeo	The only way to win is to cheat >:D
22:02	tomoj	is there a better way than (q '[:find ?v :in $ [?e ...] :where [?e :attr ?v]] db (index-range db ...)) ?
22:02	Sgeo	Can anyone submit 4clojure questions?
22:02	Sgeo	,(count (range 5))
22:02	clojurebot	5
22:02	Sgeo	Hmm
22:03	Sgeo	Best way to do an infinite seq of numbers?
22:03	brehaut	it depends what you want the seq of numbers to be
22:04	brehaut	,(repeat 1)
22:04	clojurebot	(1 1 1 1 1 ...)
22:04	brehaut	,(range)
22:04	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
22:04	xeqi	,(range)
22:04	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
22:04	xeqi	,(iterate identity 1)
22:04	clojurebot	(1 1 1 1 1 ...)
22:04	Sgeo	How would I do range where it starts at a different number, besides ##(map (partial + 1) (range))
22:04	lazybot	java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
22:05	Sgeo	:(
22:05	dnolen	tomoj: what are you trying to do? I'm just now finally digging into Datomic ...
22:05	brehaut	,(doc range)
22:05	clojurebot	"([] [end] [start end] [start end step]); Returns a lazy seq of nums from start (inclusive) to end (exclusive), by step, where start defaults to 0, step to 1, and end to infinity."
22:05	tomoj	use index-range to restrict to a date range (domain date, not transaction date)
22:05	brehaut	,(iterate inc 3)
22:05	clojurebot	(3 4 5 6 7 ...)
22:05	tomoj	then run a query on just those
22:05	gfredericks	,(drop 2 (range))
22:05	clojurebot	(2 3 4 5 6 ...)
22:05	shachaf	,(range 3 (/ 1.0 0.0))
22:05	clojurebot	(3 4 5 6 7 ...)
22:05	Sgeo	,(doc iterate)
22:05	clojurebot	"([f x]); Returns a lazy sequence of x, (f x), (f (f x)) etc. f must be free of side-effects"
22:06	Sgeo	brehaut, awesomme
22:06	shachaf	(Note: Don't do that.)
22:06	dnolen	tomoj: hmm, it's not my impression that's what index-range is for - don't you just want to use a db function?
22:07	tomoj	my understanding is that a db function would not take advantage of indexes
22:07	tomoj	i.e. if you want today's docs, you have to pull in every doc and check the timestamp
22:08	Sgeo	,(let [s (range 5)] (for [i s j s] [i j]))
22:08	clojurebot	([0 0] [0 1] [0 2] [0 3] [0 4] ...)
22:08	Sgeo	,(let [s (range 2)] (for [i s j s] [i j]))
22:08	clojurebot	([0 0] [0 1] [1 0] [1 1])
22:08	Sgeo	Perfect.
22:08	Sgeo	,(** 2 3)
22:08	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ** in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
22:08	Sgeo	,(Math/pow 2 3)
22:08	clojurebot	8.0
22:10	Sgeo	Would it be too much of a giveaway that cheating is expected if the function the user has to write would need to determine the truth or falsity of Fermet's Last Theorem?
22:10	Sgeo	Although I'd need to make it obvious that that's what it would need to do
22:10	hiredman	tomoj: transaction functions get passed the db value, I don't see why you couldn't query it
22:11	Sgeo	How do I submit problems to 4clojure?
22:12	tomoj	hiredman: no transaction involved, this is query
22:12	dnolen	tomoj: from the docs I don't see how index-range could do what you want. it's just going to give you slice of an index of datoms. those datoms are organized in any that you have any control over as far as I know.
22:14	dnolen	are not organized
22:15	brehaut	Sgeo: you make a pull request on github i think
22:15	Sgeo	brehaut, and are problems where the only solution is cheating acceptable?
22:15	brehaut	i have no idea
22:16	brehaut	i presume not
22:16	Sgeo	Aww, darn
22:16	brehaut	i have no idea though
22:19	dnolen	tomoj: actually I think you're right. I see a thread on the ML about this.
22:21	dnolen	tomoj: people were making :avet indexes of :db.type/instant and asking for index-range to determine a start point
22:21	dnolen	tomoj: how do you know what n to start at?
22:22	Sgeo	Oh hey I found the listing of all 4cloure problems
22:27	technomancy	brehaut: I think the upstart config is just on the clojars-maintainers mailing list
22:27	tomoj	dnolen: n being the start time?
22:27	brehaut	technomancy: ah, thanks
22:27	tomoj	just whatever I want - e.g. 1 day ago
22:27	technomancy	oversight probably
22:27	tomoj	I wish you could get a reverse range
22:29	dnolen	tomoj: seems like you are right, so is that you're problem with that query ... that you't can't get a reverse range?
22:31	amalloy	Sgeo: once you have solved 50 problems, a link appears in the header allowing you to submit a problem
22:32	Sgeo	amalloy, ah
22:32	Sgeo	Awesome
22:33	tomoj	well the query seems to work fine, would be nice to get a reverse range so I don't have to e.g. do a range 1 day ago -> today, then if I want more 2 days ago -> 1 day ago, etc
22:34	tomoj	but was just wondering if there was a, uh, more idiomatic (?) way to write the query
22:39	JvJ	hey, anyone good with java interop here?
22:40	JvJ	I'm getting a class not found exception when loading an ns with :gen-class
22:42	jcromartie	JvJ: can you paste anything relevant?
22:42	JvJ	Here's my NS : (ns enjine.core.EnjineDebug
22:42	JvJ	(:gen-class)
22:42	JvJ	)
22:42	JvJ
22:43	hiredman	JvJ: you need to use the full class name in your :extends
22:43	JvJ	(defn -toString
22:43	JvJ	[this]
22:43	jcromartie	not paste like that :)
22:43	JvJ	"An enjine debug unit.")
22:43	jcromartie	...
22:43	JvJ	sry bout that
22:43	jcromartie	https://www.refheap.com/ is a Clojure-flavored paste site
22:44	hiredman	JvJ: you need docstring for gen-class
22:44	hiredman	to read the
22:44	JvJ	I was looking at a tutorial for it
22:45	hiredman	http://clojure.org/compilation is a good place to start
22:45	gert	do I need a clojure 1.5.0 alpha for the reducers library? Or can I use it with 1.4 as well?
22:46	JvJ	thanks hiredman
22:46	hiredman	gert: the code is not present in 1.4
22:46	gert	hiredman: I vaguely remember it being available as a separate jar, but maybe I'm dreaming?
22:47	hiredman	you are
22:47	gert	is there a release schedule for 1.5? I would love to use the reducers for our application, but I'm slightly hesitant to use 1.5 before it's out of alpha...
22:48	gert	although it seems pretty stable in my experience....
22:51	tomoj	reducers still need work imo, I'm hoping 1.5 is still a ways out :(
22:54	dnolen	tomoj: it doesn't sound like that.
22:54	gert	hmmm... interesting dilemma. I'm a couple of months away from releasing our application... and reducers would be awesome for our use case. I think I'm going to use it.
22:55	gert	living on the edge :)
23:00	tomoj	reduce-kv seems hobbled :(
23:00	tomoj	the extra transforms would not be too badly missed, maybe
23:28	jlongster	dnolen: is node.js support still working in latest cljs? I have a stupid simple test project and the main function doesn't seem to run: https://github.com/jlongster/cljs-node-fun/blob/master/src/test/core.cljs
23:29	dnolen	jlongster: it should as far as I know - ohpauleez uses it
23:29	dnolen	jlongster: I don't so I can't saw much about it.
23:31	jlongster	dnolen: ok, thanks. I'm not sure why but I always have trouble getting started! I'll hack on it some more.
23:33	dnolen	jlongster: you try stuff that not enough people work on ;)
23:34	dnolen	jlongster: nearly all the interest in ClojureScript is web centric
23:35	jlongster	yeah, that makes sense, since most people are probably using Clojure on the server
23:35	jlongster	I'll try to wrangle in some node though! Could be helpful in certain cases.
23:35	dnolen	jlongster: yeah
23:35	dnolen	jlongster: a lot of people are interestd in node.js, but it takes a special kind of person to dig into poorly documented code and actually help out :)
23:36	jlongster	dnolen: so you think it's worth digging into? I could be that kind of weird person that finds that a fun challenge.
23:36	dnolen	jlongster: I haven't looked at that stuff because there's just a ton of other stuff to do that's not node related at all.
23:36	dnolen	jlongster: definitely worth digging into.
23:37	jlongster	sweet
23:37	jlongster	I'm used to node, so it may just be the gateway drug to Clojure, we'll see!
23:38	dnolen	jlongster: it would be nice, if somebody actually spent some time on it we'd have a compelling scriptingsolution.
23:38	dnolen	jlongster: I spent a little time in the early days on a Node.js based CLJS REPL
23:38	dnolen	jlongster: knocked the socks off of Rhino, but I just don't have time to polish it off.
23:39	jlongster	dnolen: nice, I like the sound of that. It does sound promising to remove the JVM for that kind of stuff.
23:39	jlongster	(in terms of "precompiling" scripts)
23:39	dnolen	jlongster: well you still need the JVM to compile the forms, but once the REPL is fired up it's just zippier than Rhino.
23:40	jlongster	yeah, V8's definitely faster
23:40	dnolen	like 1000X
23:40	jlongster	haha
23:40	jlongster	I'm not sure Mozilla even supports Rhino anymore
23:53	doomlord_	is clojure good at implementing erlang style actors
23:53	dnolen	gfredericks: hmm, I just applied your patch for CLJS-383 and I have not run into any issues with advanced compilation.