#clojure – 2012-09-27

2012-09-27

00:28	qfr_und_qfr	casion, sweety, don't you just love sneaking in with infestors from the back and neuralling their entire tank line while you crash zerlgings, banelings and ultralisks in from 3 different directions?
00:29	arrdem	TIL #clojure plays sc2....
00:29	qfr_und_qfr	Of course.
00:29	qfr_und_qfr	Who doesn't?
00:30	qfr_und_qfr	cue balance whine of course when I did that.
00:30	arrdem	meh. if you can micro infestors that well you deserve it.
00:30	arrdem	personally I'd opt for an advancing wall of mutas and lings
00:30	arrdem	(it being the engage win)
00:31	qfr_und_qfr	you box them, unburrow them all and spam neural on all the tanks really.
00:31	qfr_und_qfr	It'smore timing it well with coming from all directions
00:32	qfr_und_qfr	I play random anyway and my TvZ is slightly better than my ZvT so the balance whine was unwarranted
00:32	alex_baranosky	this is the Clojure channel right?
00:32	arrdem	alex_baranosky: last time I checked...
00:32	alex_baranosky	k, just making sure Colloquoy didn't transport me to another land
00:33	Fossi	sc2 \o/
00:33	Fossi	could play some randoms again
00:33	qfr_und_qfr	Mad jelly at mah neural parasite.
00:34	qfr_und_qfr	Underused honestly since the range nerf, you can still use it, itś just no longer the answer to everything but it definitely can be used on tanks and thors.
00:34	Fossi	then somehow i don't find the time anyway ;)
00:34	qfr_und_qfr	Or like, I often go ultrabane ZvP and your biggest enemy then are archons and being able to neural them is great
00:34	qfr_und_qfr	automatically stops banelings from wasting themsleves on them
00:47	john2x	noob question, how do I `use` a java package I added to dependencies by [net.sourceforge.cssparser/cssparser "0.9.7"].. (use 'net.sourceforge.cssparser/cssparser) gives a FileNotFoundException..
00:49	scottj	john2x: you import the java class you want
00:55	john2x	scottj: oh right. d'oh. thanks!
02:26	augustl	iirc that most people think records are a bad idea, but I don't remember why and can't seem to think of any reason why they are bad. Any anti-record peeps around that would care to enlighten me?
02:35	xeqi	augustl: do you mean the 'use maps where possible' crowd?
02:36	unlink	Wow I thought I missed a huge upheaval in the vogue philosophy of the programming language. Then I realized I wasn't in #haskell.
02:59	mikehoy	I'm trying to (load "test") with leiningen and I'm getting class path errors I've added export JAVA_HOME="/usr/bin/java" and export PATH="/home/USER/bin/:$PATH" to my ~/.bashrc file
03:03	xeqi	mikehoy: do you have a file named test.clj?
03:03	mikehoy	yes I do
03:04	mikehoy	actually the FileNotFoundException Could not locate test__init.class or test.clj on classpath: clojure.lang.RT.load (RT.java:432)
03:04	mikehoy	oops
03:04	mikehoy	bad paste
03:04	arrdem	pastebin
03:04	arrdem	~paste
03:04	clojurebot	paste is https://refheap.com/
03:05	mikehoy	do you want a paste bin of test.clj and the bashrc file?
03:05	mikehoy	I'm running ./lein repl
03:05	xeqi	whats the path to test.clj from your project root?
03:07	mikehoy	http://dpaste.com/806696/
03:08	kostafey	Can somebody help me with configure nrepl in emacs?
03:08	xeqi	mikehoy: you need to put test.clj in the src/ or test/ folders
03:09	mikehoy	just put it in /src no luck
03:09	lpetit	Hello there
03:11	mikehoy	xeqi: also tried /test no luck
03:11	borkdude	mikehoy who do you type ./lein instead of lein?
03:11	mikehoy	borkdude: ./lein
03:12	borkdude	why
03:12	mikehoy	borkdude: ./lein repl
03:12	mikehoy	borkdude: so it will execute, otherwise it does nothing
03:12	borkdude	in that case the lein script must be in the sandbox also
03:13	mikehoy	can I just mv it ?
03:13	borkdude	mikehoy better is to put it on the path
03:13	mikehoy	export lien="/path/to/lien" ?
03:14	borkdude	mikehoy it depends on what kind of shell you are using I guess, bash?
03:14	mikehoy	borkdude: yes
03:15	borkdude	mikehoy then smth like that yes
03:15	borkdude	http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/prepostpath.htm
03:15	borkdude	mikehoy but then different
03:16	borkdude	mikehoy for example: export PATH=$PATH:~/opt/leiningen
03:18	borkdude	mikehoy in my .bashrc I have export PATH=$PATH:~/bin
03:18	borkdude	and the lein script is in ~/bin
03:18	mikehoy	borkdude: ok that is what I have as well
03:18	mikehoy	I will try that now
03:18	mikehoy	then I can run lein from anywhere?
03:19	borkdude	mikehoy yes, but restart the shell first
03:19	mikehoy	source /etc/profile?
03:19	borkdude	what?
03:19	clojurebot	what is exceptions
03:24	mikehoy	borkdude: you fixed it bro, thanks.
03:25	borkdude	:-)
03:27	mikehoy	borkdude: what do I have to do to run a clj program without invoking the repl?
03:27	borkdude	mikehoy check out lein run
03:27	mikehoy	borkdude: ok
03:28	borkdude	mikehoy lein help run displays some hints
03:29	ori-l	does anyone know how to configure readline behavior for lein repl? pressing the up arrow gives me (reverse-i-search), much like ctrl+R in bash. i'd like it to scroll through the command history
03:35	borkdude	gtg
04:22	kral	namaste
05:54	augustl	xeqi: went afk, sorry. Refs protocol, yes I think so.
06:21	zoldar	does anybody working with nrepl.el experience a problem where pressing enter in repl buffer on unbalanced form causes emacs to freeze with 100% cpu usage?
06:23	clgv	zoldar: does your form block? I experienced 100% cpu load with lein+nrepl when the form blocks
06:23	zoldar	clgv: but it isn't even complete, the repl should just open a new line
06:24	clgv	zoldar: oh ok. then thats probably different
06:25	zoldar	it's a bit frustrating, because every time when this happens in the middle of work, I have to kill emacs process and start again, setup buffers, jack-in, recover contents etc...
06:32	clgv	humm nrepl.el is still young...
06:33	zoldar	but it's already widely used so I hoped that maybe I'm not alone with that issue
06:38	zoldar	it happens even on a clean project after typing in a form like "(+ 1 2<enter>" ... suppose that must be something with my specific setup. Will try to dig into it later
06:40	clgv	zoldar: search in his issue tracker for a related issue and add a comment or create a new issue if there is none
06:44	zoldar	clgv: I will, when I'll isolate it better
06:45	augustl	is there a way to check which "fields" a record has?
06:46	clgv	augustl: keys
06:47	clgv	augustl: though some of them are no fields of the java object
06:47	augustl	hmm, I need to make an instance of the record to do that
06:47	augustl	so yeah, by "a record" I mean the actual record "class"
06:47	clgv	augustl: java reflection
06:48	augustl	clgv: I see
06:48	clgv	augustl: something like clojure.contrib.repl-utils/show which unfortunately ceased existence during migration
06:48	augustl	trying to find a scheme to handle the problem I'm currently having - using maps means strings being keys some times (json parse), and keywords others (mongodb query results)
06:48	clgv	but you can have a look at it to find out how it is done
06:49	augustl	seems records would be a good solution, but would like to validate that the stuff I JSON parse doesn't contain unknown keys, etc
06:49	clgv	augustl: so, what is the problem?
06:50	clgv	what is the problem with unknown keys?
06:50	augustl	clgv: the problem with strings vs. keywords is that for example a validation function will have to handle the fact that the object it validates some times uses strings for keys and some times uses keywords
06:50	augustl	depending on whether I create or update, basically
06:51	augustl	I currently clojure.walk/stringify-keys before I validate
06:51	augustl	but since my system does expect a certain set of keys to be present, not all keys you could possibly imagine, something stricter, like records, seems to make sense
06:52	clgv	augustl: you can use `select-keys` to get a map containing only the specified keys
06:52	augustl	by the way, are keywords garbage collected? The Ruby equivalent, symbols, aren't, so it's not safe to "keywordize" user input
06:53	clgv	augustl: you have to recheck but I think they are internalized
06:54	augustl	clgv: what does internalized mean?
06:55	clgv	you can check it here: clojure.lang.Keyword/intern
06:56	augustl	clgv: thanks
06:57	augustl	(inc clgv)
06:57	lazybot	⇒ 4
06:57	augustl	eww, side effects
06:57	clgv	augustl: they are stored there in a hashmap with WeakReference
07:27	Cheiron	Hi, is it possible to install lein2 and lein on the same machine?
07:31	mpenet	Cheiron: yes, see the Upgrading page on the leiningen wiki, you end up with lein1 and lein commands
07:34	Cheiron	mpent: i installed lein 1.x with brew . i guess i have to run $ mv ~/usr/local/bin/lein ~/usr/local/bin/lein1 ?
07:34	Cheiron	mpenet: i installed lein 1.x with brew . i guess i have to run $ mv ~/usr/local/bin/lein ~/usr/local/bin/lein1 ?
07:34	mpenet	I wouldn't know, I am not on OSX, but probably
07:35	mpenet	Cheiron: "which lein" should return its location
07:35	Cheiron	yes, i run it and posted the earlier line
07:36	Cheiron	so that should be fine?
07:36	mpenet	yes
08:06	lpetit	Seems like americans are still recovering from strangeloop. Nobody seems to wake up early, today :)
08:29	mpenet	Awesome overload
08:29	lpetit	mpenet: hello, and uh ?
08:30	mpenet	nevermind, trying to be funny in a language I clearly don't master
08:30	lpetit	mpenet: same here :)
09:10	clgv	hello you two
09:23	lpetit	clgv: hello
09:52	jkkramer	lpetit: hey, just posted an emacs-to-ccw report to the ccw mailing list. overall, very good experience. thanks for making ccw
09:53	casion	is there a preferred way of handling ftp connections other than using commons-net directly?
09:53	lpetit	jkkramer: I'll read it with great interest, thanks for this !
10:00	mpenet	hello clgv
10:00	clgv	now I notice that I never read the CCW ML...^^
10:02	lpetit	jkkramer: whoops, your message was awaiting moderation. I accepted it, sorry for the delay
10:04	clgv	oh, 0.10.1 is released
10:04	lpetit	clgv: indeed, forgot to mention it here
10:04	clgv	a pity I cant program anything today - gotta finish my slides first
10:04	lpetit	hopefully bug reports will stop, and I'll be able to focus on adding features :)
10:05	clgv	I'll find them bugs - I have some magic ability regarding that ;)
10:05	lpetit	clgv: I have faith in you :-P
10:06	jcromartie	Compjure time: why does (routes (some-middleware x) y z) seem to apply the middleware to y and z as well
10:07	jcromartie	specifically, I am adding a paging middleware to the first route in a sequence, but the rest of the routes are affected
10:07	jcromartie	and I don't understand why
10:07	jcromartie	weavejester: you around?
10:07	weavejester	jcromartie: I am indeed
10:07	jcromartie	(routes …) doesn't thread things through the handlers
10:07	jcromartie	right?
10:07	clojurebot	to be fair I dunno that I've ever had code out right rejected, it just sits in jira or assembla or where ever, or if I ask if there is any interest (before writing any code) I get told to go write alioth benchmarks
10:08	jcromartie	weavejester: and (wrap-foo (GET …)) returns a perfectly valid handler on its own
10:08	clgv	clojurebot: botsnack
10:08	clojurebot	botsnack is scoobysnack
10:08	weavejester	jcromartie: If you have (routes (some-middleware x) y z), the middleware will only be applied to x
10:08	jcromartie	weavejester: that's what I thought
10:09	weavejester	But because x comes before y and z, if x does not return nil, it might mean that y and z are not evaluated
10:09	lpetit	jkkramer: your feedback on the ml in invaluable, thanks again for having taken the time to report it !
10:09	weavejester	For instance, if x returns some access-denied response if it can't find the route
10:09	jcromartie	ah, I see what the issue is
10:09	jcromartie	weavejester: my middleware is returning a result no matter if the route matches
10:09	jcromartie	I need to test it first
10:10	jcromartie	(when-let [resp (handler req)] ...)
10:12	clgv	lpetit: I cant find the mail on top of the list. :/
10:13	lpetit	clgv: its title is "Emacs to CCW: Experience Report"
10:13	clgv	ccw-users list right?
10:14	lpetit	right
10:15	clgv	maybe I have to be signed in
10:15	lpetit	weird
10:16	clgv	nope. it is not visible and google cant even find it when searching the group
10:16	jcromartie	I've replaced a few thousand lines of Java with 150 lines of Clojure
10:17	jcromartie	and I'm pretty sure I haven't lost anything
10:18	lpetit	clgv: dammit, you're right, I can't see it either, that's weird
10:18	lpetit	because I received it in my inbox !
10:19	clgv	ha!
10:20	lpetit	I'll answer to it, hopefully it will resolve google group's mess
10:21	lpetit	I suspect emacs lobby to have filtered this email out :-D
10:21	clgv	haha, they are everywheren! ;)
10:35	lpetit	clgv: seriously, I can only see one reason : it's in my inbox because i've received it, it's not in the google groups because it has been deleted ?
10:35	lpetit	jkkramer: ^^ ?
10:35	Hodapp	interesting, "Can programming be liberated from the von Neumann style?" by Backus, circa 1978, discusses the idea of ranking the expressive power of languages
10:35	clgv	hit the wrong button when accepting? ;)
10:36	Hodapp	I'd wondered about this myself, but this paper is the first I've seen that puts any algebraic basis whatsoever to it, though it restricts it to FP languages
10:36	lpetit	clgv: no, or I wouldn't have received it myself
10:37	clgv	weird
10:37	casion	Hodapp: why would expressive power measurement be useful?
10:37	jkkramer	lpetit: odd. I definitely sent to Google Groups, not you directly. I did receive an error when trying to post, had to sign into Google, and re-submit. Then it said it would be posted once approved
10:38	lpetit	jkkramer: and I approved it, or so it seems
10:38	Hodapp	casion: Because perhaps you're interested in finding which language is the most expressive.
10:38	jkkramer	lpetit: google groups is notorious for this kind of thing. maybe it's just taking a while to show up?
10:39	lpetit	jkkramer: maybe, but since I received it myself, I'm surprised
10:39	jcromartie	how does my Content-Type header get a charset tacked on?
10:39	clgv	lpetit: maybe google is busy adding its content to all its indices ;) :P
10:39	Hodapp	casion: and because the expressive power may have implications for things such as proofs, automated or otherwise.
10:40	lpetit	clgv: :)
10:41	lpetit	jkkramer: I've got a lot of questions related to your email. Do you prefer to answer here (and right now), or via email (and at your own pace)?
10:42	jkkramer	lpetit: here is fine
10:43	lpetit	jkkramer: "when importing a project …" = I don't understand what the problem was, copying gigabytes of un-versioned app data ...
10:44	jkkramer	lpetit: I had a pre-existing lein project. When I added it to Eclipse, and tried to convert to a lein config, Eclipse copied everything -- including gigabytes worth of app data -- into the bin directory
10:45	jkkramer	lpetit: coincidentally, I was low on hard drive space, and it brought my system to its knees
10:46	lpetit	jkkramer: ha, you mean data from java source paths, resource paths, were copied into bin/, that's it ?
10:46	clgv	eclipse has a checkmark on the import dialog that says "copy into workspace"
10:46	clgv	*checkbox
10:47	clgv	maybe that one is checked by default
10:47	jkkramer	lpetit: the data was outside the classpath, and ignored by git
10:48	jkkramer	clgv: I kept the same project dir on disk, which is outside the default Eclipse workspace
10:48	lpetit	jkkramer: I thought the data was in src or resources/ dir, which could have explained your problem, and your fix (to place exclusions)
10:50	lpetit	jkkramer: if you can produce a step by step guide to reproduce the problem, please file a specific issue for this one, I suspect it may denote something wrong in the way leiningen support is added to an eclipse project
10:51	jkkramer	lpetit: ok, will do
10:51	lpetit	jkkramer: many thanks
10:53	lpetit	"REPL: couldn't figure out how to stop/restart" : then the current Eclise way is not intuitive. What could have helped you ? An entry in the FAQ page (and the FAQ page better visible ?) An entry in the documentation on the wiki page (did you have the reflex to refer to it first ?) ? An addition / a change to the user interface ?
10:54	lpetit	jkkramer: ^^
10:55	lpetit	jkkramer: what was unclear ? The fact that you had to both close the REPL view and hit the red square on the console view, I guess ? Would you expect that closing the REP view would also kill the underlying jvm process?
10:58	jkkramer	lpetit: I initially expected closing the REPL view to kill the process. I didn't even know that Console was related to the REPL. I looked in the installation docs first (http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/wiki/Documentation#Launch_a_REPL_for_the_project)
10:59	jkkramer	lpetit: I tried reproducing the data-copied-to-bin issue with a minimal project without success. Will try some variations...
11:01	lpetit	jkkramer: "trailing enter" : Maybe a tiny gray cross in the upper right corner could act as an easy way to switch the preference from "visible" to "invisible" ?
11:02	jkkramer	lpetit: yeah. or (if possible) having the typed code cover the "trailing enter" text. e.g., if the code had a solid white background color
11:04	lpetit	jkkramer: alas, Eclipse's SWT's StyledText is not as powerful as Swing's text widgets. The solid white background color trick is not possible:-(
11:05	lpetit	jkkramer: "Content Assist" doesn't appear to work. Is it now a solved problem? I wasn't expecting this one, to be honest.
11:06	jkkramer	lpetit: it doesn't work in the repl for me. I mean the yellowish popup with arglists, not the code-completer
11:06	lpetit	Ah
11:07	lpetit	jkkramer: 0.10.1 has a bug fix for code completion when developing in mixed-team (emacs / ccw) : now the clojure-complete hacked ccw version is in its own namespace
11:07	jkkramer	oh…I'm now seeing "Cannot find declaration for symbol under cursor" now in the main editor for content assist. This has happened before. Is there some way to get a log or stacktrace for that?
11:07	lpetit	jkkramer: eclipse logs live in your workspace's .metadata/.log file, if any
11:08	lpetit	jkkramer: you're aware that you need a running repl for the code completion to work, right?
11:08	jkkramer	lpetit: yup it's running
11:08	lpetit	jkkramer: ok
11:10	jkkramer	lpetit: the code completion always works. it's the yellowish popup (which I'm more interested in) that doesn't show, or shows inconsistently
11:10	lpetit	jkkramer: and it shows inconsistently in the REPL only, or also in the editor.
11:11	jkkramer	lpetit: "Context Information" according to the keys pref, bound to Shift+Ctrl+Space. Both repl and editor. Editor sometimes works, repl it never works
11:13	lpetit	jkkramer: yes, it's called "context information" in Eclipse, and "Content Assist" in Eclipse is for "autocompletion :). I can see that it indeed seems to work quite erratically. Would you please file an issue for this one as well, that's absolutely not desired behavior !
11:14	lrenn	off topic, but I know a lot of clojure folks play go, so kaya.gs just released 300 account if anyone is interested.
11:16	jkkramer	lpetit: issue created
11:16	lpetit	jkkramer: "Working with checkouts". There's a task in my todo to "address" the underlying problem of working with several projects at the same time. But the intended fix is not to use the checkouts/ directory, but rather to automatically detect, in the Eclipse workspace, all the projects which happen to be direct dependencies of other projects, and add them to other projects java build paths as "project dependencies".
11:17	lpetit	jkkramer: would that cover your use case correctly?
11:17	lpetit	jkrramer: re: issue thx
11:17	jkkramer	lpetit: absolutely. I don't have any particular attachment to checkouts, just want to develop multiple libs simultaneously
11:17	lpetit	jkkramer: ok
11:17	lpetit	(fine ;) )
11:19	lpetit	jkkramer: now, let's dig into the "Editing" section of your email :)
11:19	jkkramer	lpetit: I will say, with checkouts, I end up editing the files under checkouts dir with only the one project open. With the feature you're describing, I would have multiple projects open, yes?
11:20	lpetit	yes
11:20	jkkramer	lrenn: cool. are you the creator of kaya.gs? I hadn't heard of it
11:21	lrenn	jkkramer: no :) I'm just very excited for it and I know a few clojure folks got introduced to go via rhickey.
11:21	kryft	Wow, I didn't know rhickey played go
11:22	kryft	(Reminds me that I should start playing again)
11:22	jkkramer	I was excited when I found out he plays, and is encouraging others to. Clojure and Go are two of my favorite hobbies :)
11:22	lpetit	jkkramer: is this new fact a game changer for "workspace project dependencies instead of checkouts/" ?
11:22	lrenn	me too :)
11:23	jkkramer	lpetit: don't think so, no. I was just being lazy by not creating Eclipse projects for the checkouts yet
11:24	lpetit	jkkramer: ok
11:25	lpetit	jkkramer: Tom Hickey is working on adding the last missing bits of paredit.el into paredit.clj . He already has barrage / slurpage commands on his own fork. Just waiting for him to ping me when he things it's stable enough.
11:26	jkkramer	lpetit: that's excellent to hear
11:26	lpetit	jkkramer: before digging into your editing issues, let's just check your config please: are you in strict mode, or in default mode, for the editor ?
11:27	jkkramer	lpetit: strict
11:27	lpetit	jkkramer: you can switch locally from one to another via Alt+D, or definitely change the defaults from the preferences menu
11:27	lpetit	jkkramer: ok
11:28	lpetit	jkkramer: I don't understand what you mean by ") and ] being interchangeable" ?
11:28	jkkramer	lpetit: in emacs, ], ), and } are interchangeable. they all close (or overwrite) whatever closing bracket your cursor is at
11:29	jkkramer	thinking of an example...
11:30	lpetit	yes please, because I never had the issue for myself, so an example may help understand your "workflow"
11:30	jkkramer	lpetit: e.g., (foo [bar\|]) where \| is the cursor. you could type ] twice to end up here: (foo [bar])\|. in CCW, you end up with: (foo [bar]]) which is invalid
11:31	lpetit	jkkramer: I would argue that you could also only type ) once to end up here: (foo [bar])\| in ccw
11:31	TimMc	bleh
11:31	jkkramer	(foo [bar]]\|) rather
11:32	jkkramer	lpetit: it's possible, it's just more cognitive load to remember which type of closing bracket to use. especially when you're facing a ))])]}) type thing
11:32	TimMc	I really, really like being able to type ] repeatedly to walk to the end of whatever braces sexp I'm in.
11:33	jkkramer	(inc TimMc)
11:33	lazybot	⇒ 16
11:33	lpetit	jkkramer: let's revisit this once again before I give up :)
11:34	lpetit	jkkramer: the current behavior in CCW is that when you type ), you jump to the next closing ), when you type ], you jump to the next closing ], when you type }, you jump to the next closing }
11:34	lpetit	jkkramer: now, you have discovered a corner case when there is no "next" ] or next } or next ), and indeed then the raw char is inserted, which is undesirable.
11:34	jcromartie	so Light Table is a web app?
11:35	jkkramer	lpetit: it may be because CCW's way is unfamiliar, but I don't really find that useful. it takes me longer to figure out which type of bracket it to use than it would be to just type ] N times to get to the right place
11:35	lrenn	jcromartie: yes, but it runs locally.
11:35	jcromartie	yeah
11:36	lpetit	jkkramer: for instance, if your facing a ))])]}) type thing, with the current CCW behavior, typing just one } would bring you directly after the }, when your suggesting behavior would just bring the cursor after the next ) or ] or }, right ?
11:36	TimMc	lpetit: I guess the question is whether you want to be bug-compatible (in your view) with Emacs paredit. :-)
11:36	jkkramer	lpetit: right. technically in that case, ccw does it in fewer key strokes, but I would argue it takes me longer because I have to think harder and parse the code myself to decide what to press
11:38	jkkramer	lpetit: I will make a mental note to record a real-life example when I come across one. having trouble thinking up a good contrived one
11:39	lpetit	jkkramer: LOL, ok. I'm open to changing my mind. Just need more contrived example indeed :)
11:41	jcromartie	what does LightTable use to display the UI
11:41	jkkramer	lpetit: it's not a deal breaker by any means. the bigger issues are allowing invalid ] and }, and lack of slurp, which are being addressed.
11:41	lpetit	jkkramer: indeed, we agree without delay that invalid } and ] should not be inserted. Would you please file an issue for this specific topic?
11:42	lrenn	jcromartie: i believe it's html5 + clojurescript but i'm not positive.
11:42	jcromartie	yeah but I mean what is rendering it
11:42	jcromartie	it's some kindof embedded browser
11:42	jcromartie	JWebPane
11:42	jcromartie	maybe?
11:43	lpetit	jkkramer: please note that I'm writing an answer to your email with all the conclusions we're addressing here, so that other people can follow along.
11:43	jkkramer	lpetit: issue created
11:43	lpetit	jkkramer: you're fast. Thx :)
11:46	jcromartie	I guess I'm not sure what Light Table is at this point… is it for building web apps, or building "Light Table apps"
11:46	quentin_	hi! I set up a bounty on Stack Exchange Code Review for this question: http://codereview.stackexchange.com/q/8270/11227 - the guy (not me) is just asking if the code is idiomatic clojure or not, and if not, what should be changed. anybody willing to give it a try? thanks! (sorry if there's an implicit rule forbidding this)
11:46	jcromartie	because this latest video shows some interactive game inside Light Table and the code is in Clojurescript
11:46	jkkramer	jcromartie: from what I gather, it's an experiment. real-world value TBD
11:46	jcromartie	yah
11:47	casion	jcromartie: it's an IDE… that's it
11:47	lpetit	jkkramer: bbl (~30 mins.)
11:47	jcromartie	I guess I'm missing context
11:47	jkkramer	lpetit: k
11:47	metellus	jcromartie: it's for any kind of development
11:48	casion	the context is the concept behind it, but it is simply an IDE designed with some new concepts (and old concepts that are rarely implemented)
11:48	juhu_chapa	Why there is no socket library in https://github.com/clojure? Is a there standard project to do net apps?
11:50	jkkramer	juhu_chapa: I think most people use the Java APIs. or specialized libs like clj-http
11:51	jcromartie	I think the video demo is missing the context of new stuff that's a few steps ahead of the Light Table Playground that's publicly available
11:56	juhu_chapa	jkkramer: I see. Thank you.
11:57	mefesto	Hello everyone. I'm trying to use stencil in my compojure app. I'm using lein-ring for development which reloads my clojure code but the templates don't seem to get reloaded. Anyone know what could be the issue? Seems like it might be how stencil caches templates.
11:58	weavejester	mefesto: Which Ring version are you using?
11:58	mefesto	weavejester: 1.1.6
11:59	mefesto	weavejester: lein-ring 0.7.5
11:59	weavejester	Then it's not an out of date Ring version
11:59	weavejester	It could be that stencil uses defonce
12:00	jcromartie	I've always found code reloading to be iffy
12:00	jcromartie	I just compile my namespaces from SLIME
12:01	weavejester	The latest Ring versions should be better for code reloading
12:01	weavejester	There were several bugs that have been fixed in that regard
12:02	weavejester	I'm pretty sure there's at least one left, but it's rare and I haven't been able to pin it down
12:02	weavejester	It looks like stencil doesn't use defonce
12:02	weavejester	So in theory it should reset the cache when it's reloaded...
12:03	weavejester	Oh, except...
12:03	weavejester	Ah, because the code hasn't changed for stencil, it doesn't reload the namespace
12:04	weavejester	wrap-reload reloads modifed files, and any files that depend on those modifed files
12:04	weavejester	But the cache for stencil is defined in a file that hasn't changed, and whose code does not need to be reloaded.
12:06	mefesto	I guess I need to find a way to disable caching for development but leave it enabled otherwise
12:06	weavejester	mefesto: Have you tried using (stencil.loader/set-cache-policy cache-never) ?
12:06	mefesto	weavejester: no, i'll give that a go now
12:07	weavejester	Where cache-never is also in stencil.loader
12:08	LesZedCB	hello
12:09	weavejester	hi
12:11	mefesto	weavejester: I'm not finding that function. I'm running stencil 0.3.0
12:13	mefesto	weavejester: thanks anyway for the help. i'll give it another look after lunch
12:25	lpetit	jkkramer: back
12:31	juhu_chapa	Where can I download full clojure docs?
12:33	nDuff	juhu_chapa: If you want something to read offline, I strongly suggest purchasing a book. The docs are... really not that great.
12:34	lpetit	jkkramer: "new clojure namespace" confusion. What could be done to improve the situation?
12:34	paultag	Anyone know how I can pass kwargs to clojure-py?
12:35	paultag	to native bindings in clojurepy*
12:35	nDuff	juhu_chapa: ...that said, see the gh-pages branch on github
12:36	lpetit	jkkramer: idea = always pre-populate the input area with the namespace prefix from where the wizard triggering took place, e.g. you trigger the wizard from src/foo/bar then the input comes pre-populated with "foo.bar.<customize>" and <customize> would be pre-selected so that it is automatically replaced by what the user would type?
12:38	juhu_chapa	nDuff: thank you.
12:38	paultag	all I see is https://github.com/halgari/clojure-py/blob/master/examples/flask/utils.clj#L6-10 ← and that looks god-forsaken
12:39	uvtc	paultag: if you don't get any answers here, I suggest the clojure-py ML/group. I've found them to be pretty responsive.
12:40	paultag	uvtc: ah, thanks!
12:40	hiredman	that all looks horrible
12:40	paultag	hiredman: yeah, it really does
12:40	paultag	hiredman: and I'm a day into Clojure, so that's a bit overwhelming, too
12:40	technomancy	clojure-py might be a rough place to start
12:40	hiredman	paultag: don't bother with clojure-py
12:41	paultag	I got the basics with straight clojure, and that's fine
12:41	hiredman	clojure-py is junk
12:41	paultag	but I was trying to wrap some Python I had sitting around
12:41	paultag	I figured I'd try to apply it to some $WORK data
12:41	hiredman	although I am sure others would disgree with me, they are, as per usual, wrong
12:41	paultag	:)
12:42	paultag	it gives a horrid message when you forget (ns ..)
12:42	paultag	(NoneType has no such method rstrip or so)
12:56	jkkramer	lpetit: sorry for delay, got pulled into a meeting. That sounds like a nice solution. Also nice might be an example with dashes/underscores. FWIW, this was only confusing the first time. Afterwards it was fine
12:57	lpetit	jkkramer: ok. But really normally you wouldn't have to worry about underscores here, just enter dashes, and it's converted into underscores (I hoped this one was implied by the "new namespace" name)
12:59	jkkramer	lpetit: it also would be nice if it would create directories for namespace prefixes if they don't exist already. Otherwise, it's "new directory", "new namespace", so there's a potentially-confusing mixture of files/namespaces
12:59	jkkramer	lpetit: … with attendant dash/underscore confusion
12:59	lpetit	jkkramer: very true. Can you add this to the issue ? I think I'll do all in one pass
13:00	lpetit	jkkramer: so thanks to you, I've decided to revisit my agenda for the next thursdays, and work on resolving your feedback-related issues first :)
13:01	jkkramer	lpetit: wow thanks. glad my feedback could be useful
13:02	lpetit	jkkramer: beware, since you were in meeting, I hit Enter on my email answer, and lost among what we've already discussed here, is a request for you to open one or to more bugs.
13:02	lpetit	jkkramer: Since my dashboard is only eventually made of tickets list, it would be a shame if one or two issues were lost in google group's history
13:03	lpetit	jkkramer: very useful.
13:03	lpetit	jkkramer, all: must go, cu
13:03	jkkramer	lpetit: see you. your work on ccw is much appreciated
14:02	mpan	Guys, have you got any particular recommendation for an introduction to the concurrency features in Clojure?
14:08	jcromartie	mpan: good question
14:13	eggsby	mpan: http://blakesmith.me/2012/05/15/understanding-clojure-concurrency-part-1.html and http://blakesmith.me/2012/05/25/understanding-clojure-concurrency-part-2.html are pretty good writeups
14:14	mpan	awesome! thanks!
14:15	eggsby	the first post is mostly concurrency 101 and not related to clojure too much, the second post goes into clojures concurrency data types/STM
14:15	sexpGirl	I need to add a "free-floating .jar and decided to use "lein localrepo" for now. I managed to add the .jar using localrepo: I got copied to ~/.m2/repository/... and doing a "lein localrepo list" I can see it listed however whenever I try to add it to project.clj and do "lein deps" it fails (Could not transfer artifact / It's possible the specified jar is not in any repository)
14:17	xeqi	sexpGirl: what is the path in ~/.m2/repository, what is the dependency vector you're using in the project.clj?
14:17	sexpGirl	now if I try to add another of the .jar listed by "lein localrepo list", it works fine. So somehow localrepo did create a local repository but "lein deps" cannot find it? (I may be getting the name wrong but I can use other jars fine, so I don't think it's a typo)
14:18	sexpGirl	@xeqi: for example this works fine in project.clj ":dependencies [[slingshot "0.8.0"]] but this doesn't ":dependencies [[myjar "1.6.0]]"
14:19	xeqi	is the jar under ~/.m2/repository/myjar/myjar/1.6.0/myjar.jar ?
14:19	sexpGirl	and "lein localrepo list" lists several things, including "slingshot (0.8.0)" and "myjar (1.0.6)" (oops, 1.0.6 I meant above)
14:20	thorbjornDX	hey, what's the consensus (if any) on clojure-py?
14:20	sexpGirl	@xeqi: myjar is in ~/.m2/repository/myjar/myjar/1.0.6/... However... It's not "myjar.jar" but "myjar-1.0.6.jar", would that be the error?
14:21	xeqi	sexpGirl: myjar-1.0.6.jar is right, I was typing too fast
14:21	paultag	thorbjornDX: I just asked
14:21	paultag	thorbjornDX: 12:36 < hiredman> paultag: don't bother with clojure-py
14:21	paultag	thorbjornDX: 12:36 < hiredman> clojure-py is junk
14:21	sexpGirl	@xeqi: no I got it wrong on my first line ; )
14:21	sexpGirl	@xeqi: oops nevermind, read too fast
14:21	thorbjornDX	paultag: ah, gotcha :)
14:22	paultag	thorbjornDX: the biggest problems i've hit (less then 2 hours in) is it failes to handle a missing (ns) declr, as well as not being able to use kwargs on native bindings
14:22	paultag	thorbjornDX: well, it can, but you have to setattr on a function and invoke that
14:22	thorbjornDX	paultag: ah, sounds messy
14:22	sexpGirl	one thing different inside ~/.m2/repository/ is that, say, for slingshot I have .sha1, .pom and .pom.sha1 but I don't have these for my local free floating jar
14:22	paultag	thorbjornDX: 12:34 < paultag> all I see is https://github.com/halgari/clojure-py/blob/master/examples/flask/utils.clj#L6-10 ← and that looks god-forsaken
14:23	paultag	thorbjornDX: if you find a way around that voodoo, let me know :)
14:23	mpan	is there a way to say: "when this goes out of scope, run cleanup on that"?
14:24	thorbjornDX	paultag: I don't plan on using it right away, I just wanted to experiment w/ it since the interop could be nice (assuming it's implemented well)
14:24	paultag	thorbjornDX: ack on that
14:24	mpan	i.e. explicitly release some resource when the corresponding something gets GC-ed
14:24	technomancy	mpan: GC is nondeterministic, so that ends up not working very well
14:24	aperiodic	mpan: "goes out of scope" and "gets garbage collected" don't have any temporal locality
14:24	xeqi	sexpGirl: hmm, I'd expect :dependencies [[myjar "1.0.6"]] to work
14:25	sexpGirl	@xeqi: is there an easy way to "trace" what 'lein deps' does here?
14:26	xeqi	not really. can you paste the output somewhere?
14:26	mpan	so if I want a resource released? do it manually and explicitly?
14:26	sexpGirl	@xeqi: sure... First I've got another question: can lein / Maven work on a user account which has no Internet access?
14:27	xeqi	set `:offline true`, and it will only grab from the ~/.m2 cache
14:27	aperiodic	mpan: whenever i've tried anything besides that, it just lead to pain
14:27	sexpGirl	I mean: it seems to be working fine "offline" with all the other .jars, but not with "myjar".
14:28	aperiodic	mpan: you can implement closeable, do your cleanup in .close, and then use the with-open macro, which gets rid of the boilerplate
14:28	mpan	ok thanks!
14:28	mpan	thank you all
14:29	xeqi	thats cause they are found in the ~/.m2 cache, but the myjar one isn't. nothing specific to offline there
14:32	sexpGirl	@xeqi: I see... (preparing the paste) but... "lein localrepo list" shows myjar though
14:33	xeqi	I'm guessing theres a mismatch between whats in the ~/.m2 cache and the dependency vector in the project.clj, but without a project.clj or a error saying what is actually being looked for its hard to say
14:38	sexpGirl	@xeqi: here's the entire process: http://pastebin.com/XZxmwUun (I create the local repo, then list it, then lein deps without the dep, then add it and re 'lein deps' and there's the error message)
14:39	shaungilchrist	so I wanted a way to work w/ datomic queries - just wondering if there is a better/simpler way of doing this https://gist.github.com/3795605
14:44	sexpGirl	@xeqi: could the lack of a .pom in the ~/.m2/repository/myjar/myjar/1.0.6/ be causing the issue ?
14:46	xeqi	sexpGirl: it would cause it to go out and look for it in a repo, but I would have expected it not to care about not finding one
14:47	sexpGirl	@xeqi: could it be that he wouldn't care about not finding one, but that he's upset that he cannot even contact the repo? (because there's no Internet access?) [I'll check this out ASAP]
14:48	sexpGirl	btw... There's no way lein / Maven would be going to automatically upload a private .jar in a public Internet repository right !?
14:48	xeqi	lein shouldn't
14:49	xeqi	looks like theres some work being done on pom generation https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-localrepo/pull/3
14:49	hiredman	depends what you mean by "upload" "public internet repository" and "private jar"
14:49	xeqi	but that it should work without it, but would produce the download messages
14:53	sexpGirl	@hiredman: by "private jar" I mean a .jar containing company/proprietary information that shouldn't end up on the big bad Internet ; )
14:55	cvkem_	clojure.core/reduce seems to return non-lazy sequences. Is this correct? If so, why is it non-lazy?
14:55	chouser	reduce must be non-lazy
14:56	cvkem_	For what reason? A lazy version would be usefull, for me at least.
14:56	jkkramer_	cvkem_: see reductions
14:56	technomancy	reduce doesn't operate in terms of seqs
14:57	technomancy	seqs are the only thing that can be lazy in clojure
14:57	technomancy	reduce can only be lazy in a language like Haskell
14:57	sexpGirl	technomancy: btw thanks for clojure-mode
14:58	technomancy	sexpGirl: oh, I didn't write that
14:59	technomancy	I just merge pull requests for it
14:59	cvkem_	Trying to understand Haskell, but haven't come far enough yet to understand why haskell can and clojure can't
14:59	technomancy	cvkem_: all values in Haskell are lazy
15:01	cvkem_	technomancy, what is my best option to process an (possibly infinite) sequence, where an element on the input can produce multiple elements at the output?
15:01	technomancy	(apply concat (map ...)) probably?
15:03	cvkem_	technomancy: oke, I did not know apply was lazy. But as it is this sounds good.
15:03	technomancy	apply inherits the laziness of its argument
15:04	cvkem_	sounds logical .
15:05	cvkem_	technomancy: thanks
15:10	sexpGirl	Is it possible to have lein and be able to do "lein deps"
15:10	sexpGirl	sorry
15:11	sexpGirl	Is it possible to have lein installed (lein deps works etc.), to do nrepl-jack-in etc. without having Maven? Is it possible that I miss Maven on my system? (I don't find the 'mvn' command)
15:13	technomancy	sure, mvn hasn't been needed since leiningen 1.1.0
15:14	sexpGirl	@technomany: but a maven.jar is needed or does lein do everything that Maven does?
15:14	TimMc	technomancy: ...but if mvn is on your classpath, it gets used.
15:14	sexpGirl	s/technomany/technomancy/
15:16	sexpGirl	"apt-get install maven", 145 newly installed, 261 MB of additional disk space will be used <-- geez!
15:17	lpetit	sexpGirl: no maven.jar is needed.
15:18	sexpGirl	@lpetit: ok, thanks
15:18	lpetit	sexpGirl: how did you install leiningen? Which version ?
15:19	abalone	are there any reasons to use (take 1 ...) instead of (first ...) ?
15:21	emezeske	abalone: (take 1) returns a lazy sequence, so it doesn't necessarily realize the first element
15:21	emezeske	abalone: (first) returns the element itself, thus necessarily realizing it
15:21	abalone	emezeske: thanks!
15:23	sexpGirl	@lpetit: Leiningen 2.0.0-preview10 ran the shell script which did install everything. Note that everything seems to work fine: I did create a project, I can run "lein deps" from a shell, I can "nrepj-jack-in" from Emacs etc. It's only once I start to add a free-floating .jar that I enter a world or hurt :-/
15:24	lpetit	sexpGirl: "add a free floating .jar". Can you explain (repeat?) how you actually added this free-floating .jar ?
15:24	scriptor	sexpGirl: side note, you don't have to prefix nicks with an @, also most irc clients let you autocomplete nicks by hitting tab
15:26	sexpGirl	@lpetit: sure, I did use "lein localrepo", here's a quick summary of what work and what doesn't: http://pastebin.com/XZxmwUun
15:26	Moses_	Anyone here use lein-cucumber? I've been trying to get it working for 2 days, seems a bit quirky. I wonder if I'm doing something horribly wrong.
15:27	sexpGirl	lpetit: (oops, got the <tab> this time ; ) basically lein localrepo seems to work, it does create the ~/.m2/ repo, it does list myjar when I do "lein localrepo list" but as soon as I had the dep into project.clj "lein deps" fails (and hence my nrepl-jack-in fails)
15:30	lpetit	sexpGirl: having lein deps not working after a lein-localrepo call seems consistent with what the "Free-Floating Jars" section of https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Repeatability is saying
15:30	beberlei	hi, could someone hint me why http://pastie.org/4831277 still produces "Exception: org.postgresql.util.PSQLException: Can't infer the SQL type to use for an instance of clojure.lang.MapEntry. Use setObject() with an explicit Types value to specify the type to use." in the [(cast. ] line?
15:31	lpetit	sexpGirl: meaning, it's like you're out of luck if you don't publish it on the evil Internet, or an internal Nexus / Archiva server, or a private s3 bucket
15:32	lpetit	sexpGirl: I can imagine you can somehow add a :repositories key to your :user profile, tho I don't know what kind of undesired side effect this may have
15:34	sexpGirl	lpetit: damn... That's where I start to question if tying "Maven-the-kitchen-sink" to the lein was really that great. I mean, sure, Maven decided it was better to not commit .jar to your (D)VCS but we've always been doing exactly that and we have 100% deterministic and reproducible builds and 0% of Maven here :(
15:36	sexpGirl	but oh well... private S3 bucket it may be then (I'll still try a few other things first). One more thing to do on my TODO list ; )
15:38	beberlei	fixed it myself
15:38	lpetit	sexpGirl: sorry, I think I've seen answers to this elsewhere, but don't remember. Good luck
15:40	Moses_	What testing engine should I be using with Clojure? I've been trying lein-cucumber, but that seems impossible to get working. Is there something else out there that's more widely accepted by the community?
15:40	Raynes	sexpGirl: Everyone ever decided committing binaries to something like git is terrible. What happens when you change update those jars to new versions over time? With even small jars, the repository will eventually grow unreasonably large.
15:41	hiredman	clojure.test is what we use at work, and it is what comes with clojure
15:41	hiredman	and clojure.test tests are what lein's built in testing stuff runs
15:43	Moses_	Thanks hiredman, I'll just use that.
15:44	sexpGirl	@Raynes: it works fine for us, medium codebase, around 300KLOC. I'm just a bit bitter that Maven if forced down anyone's throat who want to do 'serious' Clojure work (not everyone agrees that Maven is great, far from it). But if it's what has been decided, then so be it and I'll learn it ; (
15:44	hiredman	lein is not maven
15:44	hiredman	it uses the same dependency resolution stuff, but that is it
15:46	emezeske	sexpGirl: Why do you commit the jars to version control, though, as opposed to just tagging your releases and having a top-level build target that recreates all of the jars?
15:46	hiredman	if you have a team project, I strongly recommend setting up something like archiva over messing with lein-localrepo
15:46	Raynes	sexpGirl: Can you paste the contents of ~/.m2/repository/myjar/myjar/1.0.6/myjar-1.0.6.pom ?
15:47	hiredman	do not check in jars
15:47	sexpGirl	@Raynes: that's the thing: there's no pom, so I'm manually creating one : )
15:47	ivan	jars in version control = free stabbing
15:47	Raynes	Also, 300KLOC is a medium codebase? I just caught that one. Wow. I've been writing Clojure for too long. I've never even seen 300 lines of code.
15:48	Raynes	300k lines of code*
15:48	emezeske	Raynes: I'd actually call 300k small-to-medium
15:49	sexpGirl	@Raynes: that is one the reason I'm learning Clojure ; )
15:49	emezeske	Raynes: In the corporate world, at least
15:49	Raynes	In what language?
15:49	mefesto	probably java/spring/hibernate/xml hell
15:49	mefesto	or javaee
15:49	hfaafb	300k is small coming up on medium?
15:50	sexpGirl	@hfaafb: in Java Spring / hibernate / XML hell I'd say it's about between small and medium but closer to medium ; )
15:51	Hodapp	hmm, let's see how many lines of C++ I have here
15:53	Raynes	I should write a script to count the lines of all of flatland's projects.
15:54	Raynes	I'd be surprised if they passed 10k together.
15:54	sexpGirl	find . -iname "*clj" -exec cat {} \; \| wc -l
15:54	sexpGirl	; )
15:54	Hodapp	bash-4.1$ find \| egrep "\.(cpp\|h)$" \| while read N; do cat "$N"; done \| wc -l
15:54	Hodapp	591917
15:54	Raynes	I'm doubtful they'd even near it.
15:54	hfaafb	591k
15:54	Hodapp	710671 if I add in .c, .java
15:54	hfaafb	what does that program do
15:55	Hodapp	not much
15:55	Hodapp	it's "Enterprise"(tm)(c)(r)
15:56	Hodapp	and let's be honest, it's C++, so about 560K of that 591K is just there as scaffolding for the 31K
15:56	Raynes	Hah
15:56	paultag	not like java
16:00	sexpGirl	OK I'm making progress... I wrote a .pom and now I can nrepl-jack-in and at the REPL I can see my jar if I do, say: (println (seq (.getURLs (java.lang.ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader))))
16:09	jcromartie	if you want to count lines of code, go get cloc
16:09	jcromartie	http://cloc.sourceforge.net/
16:10	jcromartie	I use it all the time
16:10	jcromartie	:) like when comparing the initial Java version of this API to the Clojure version (1500 -> 150)
16:12	Amaryl	thanks for the tip!
16:17	aaelony	what's an idiomatic way to take 2 structures (each is a vector of maps) and join / merge them by common key? https://www.refheap.com/paste/5342
16:18	Moses_	Does this sound like a lein problem? http://pastie.org/4831468
16:21	jcromartie	,(map merge [{:a :foo} {:a :bar}] [{:b :bat} {:b :baz}])
16:21	clojurebot	({:b :bat, :a :foo} {:b :baz, :a :bar})
16:21	tos9	aaelony: (map into s1 s2) Seems like a thing. No idea if there's something even more obvious.
16:21	jcromartie	map into or map merge
16:21	technomancy	Moses_: which lein version is that?
16:21	Raynes	aaelony: (map merge s1 s2)
16:21	jcromartie	merge-with for more control
16:21	hiredman	Moses_: it is a problem with your user.clj
16:21	Moses_	Leiningen 2.0.0-preview10 on Java 1.6.0_24 OpenJDK Client VM
16:21	aaelony	jcromartie & tos9 thanks, I need to learn this!
16:22	xeqi	Moses_: looks like a lein-cucumber problem; https://github.com/nilswloka/lein-cucumber/blob/master/project.clj requires [leiningen-core "2.0.0-preview3"] for some reason
16:22	Moses_	user.clj is not a part of my project =\
16:22	technomancy	Moses_: if you are just getting started with the language I would strongly suggest using clojure.test instead of cucumber
16:22	hiredman	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.Exception: Too many arguments to def (user.clj:14)
16:22	hiredman	that tells you on which line to look
16:22	technomancy	hiredman: probably leiningen.core.user
16:22	aaelony	raynes, thanks too
16:22	Moses_	Okie dokey, thanks everyone
16:23	pandeiro	what is the equivalent to the :dev dependencies in lein2?
16:23	xeqi	:profiles {:dev {:dependencies ....}}
16:25	pandeiro	xeqi: thanks
17:01	Raynes	Jose Valim on twitter: "@IORayne everyone here knows you! You should come next year :) and tks for talking about elixir to others !"
17:01	Raynes	technomancy: I bet you spent the whole time there talking about me and how fantastic I am.
17:02	technomancy	dude I opened up mix and I saw task chaining via the `do` task and it warmed my icy heart
17:02	technomancy	I think I told him to add proper alias support, but I don't think that's happened yet
17:07	Cheiron	Hi, I installed clojure-vim but what do i need to know about it (i'm familiar with vi) ?
17:07	aperiodic	what is clojure-vim? pretty much everybody uses vimclojure and/or slimv
17:08	Cheiron	yes sorry, i mean vimclojure
17:08	Cheiron	my bad
17:08	emezeske	Cheiron: ":help vimclojure"
17:09	SegFaultAX	Isn't running :help foo the first thing anyone does after installing something in vim?
17:09	emezeske	SegFaultAX: Apparently not.
17:10	Cheiron	i'm getting E149: Sorry, no help for vimclojure
17:10	scriptor	isn't there a readme?
17:10	Cheiron	yes should be. thanks for help all
17:11	SegFaultAX	Sounds like you either didn't install it correctly or you haven't built the helptags.
17:11	thorbjornDX	Cheiron: how did you install it? using pathogen?
17:12	Cheiron	no, extracting the zip and move it by hand
17:12	SegFaultAX	Cheiron: Run helptags on it then.
17:12	Cheiron	oki, thank you
17:13	antoineB_	hello
17:14	SegFaultAX	antoineB_: Hallo.
17:15	antoineB_	assuming i have a (java) function that use CharSequence[] or a ByteBuffer, can i pass to it clojure object?
17:15	antoineB_	in other word need i convert so seq into a java Object?
17:16	antoineB_	*convert a seq
17:17	emezeske	antoineB_: Is this related? http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/to-array
17:18	hiredman	seqs are java objects
17:18	SegFaultAX	Clojure objects /are/ java objects.
17:19	mindbender1	emezeske: how can I get rid of this error: ERROR: JSC_MISSING_PROVIDE_ERROR. required "goog.dom.query" namespace never provided
17:20	mindbender1	I'm trying to compile domina and I'm getting the error
17:20	antoineB_	emezeske: i think it should do the trick
17:20	antoineB_	thanks
17:20	emezeske	mindbender1: I guess probably by providing goog.dom.query
17:20	antoineB_	so if seqs are java object, what they inherit from?
17:20	hiredman	depends on the seq
17:21	SegFaultAX	antoineB_: Let me be more specific: everything in Clojure is just Java.
17:21	hiredman	,(supers (class ()))
17:21	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.IMeta java.lang.Iterable clojure.lang.ISeq clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection java.util.Collection ...}
17:21	emezeske	mindbender1: What version of domina/lein-cljsbuild?
17:21	hiredman	,(supers (class []))
17:21	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.IMeta java.lang.Iterable clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection clojure.lang.IFn java.lang.Comparable ...}
17:21	emezeske	mindbender1: I think if you're using the latest versions of each that should not happen
17:21	hiredman	,(supers (class #{}))
17:21	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.IMeta java.lang.Iterable clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection clojure.lang.IFn java.util.Collection ...}
17:21	antoineB_	ok
17:21	hiredman	etc
17:21	mindbender1	emezeske: ok let me make sure
17:23	antoineB_	thanks
17:23	SegFaultAX	Why is it that I enjoy porting bits of Clojure to Lua so much?
17:24	Raynes	Do you also enjoy cutting yourself and bdsm?
17:24	Raynes	If so, you might be a masochist.
17:24	SegFaultAX	Raynes: Why do you say that?
17:24	ivan	I hear some ClojureScript thing can emit Lua
17:24	SegFaultAX	Raynes: Not a fan of Lua?
17:24	Raynes	Because this is #clojure and I need to be biased.
17:25	Raynes	Port bits of Lua to Clojure instead. More fun.
17:25	SegFaultAX	Raynes: There's nothing to port. I can't think of a single Lua feature that Clojure doesn't already have or support.
17:28	technomancy	1-based vectors?
17:28	technomancy	that may have been below the belt =)
17:28	SegFaultAX	technomancy: That's a misfeature of Lua.
17:29	technomancy	don't know if you'll find anyone disagreeing within a few netsplits of this channel
17:31	jcromartie	oh boy Clojure and Lua :)
17:31	jcromartie	I spent 6 months doing Lua full-time
17:31	jcromartie	I loved it before that...
17:32	casion	I did some renoise stuff in Lua… that's why I ended up trying clojure again. My hate of developing stuff in lua
17:32	jcromartie	but this system twisted and abused it beyond belief….
17:32	casion	it grew to a substantial and unreasonable size
17:32	SegFaultAX	I not a big fan of the "Everything is a Table. Everything. (Except numbers, strings, threads, functions, userdata, booleans, and nil)
17:32	SegFaultAX	"
17:33	jcromartie	I think it's more that the only collection type is the table
17:33	jcromartie	if you don't count strings
17:33	SegFaultAX	jcromartie: Exactly.
17:34	jcromartie	but I've had pleasant experiences in Lua
17:34	SegFaultAX	jcromartie: Js suffers from the same problem. At least it pretends to have Arrays (not really, though). Maybe it's symptomatic of all prototypical languages? I don't know.
17:35	jcromartie	yeah, I think I see Lua as a slightly more pure JS
17:37	SegFaultAX	jcromartie: I think if they added an array-type collection to Lua, I would be infinitely happy. The ugliness of the standard library because tables can be used as arrays or maps bothers me. Plus it would make functional programming in Lua a bit nicer.
17:37	jcromartie	iterating over different kinds of collections using the same few higher-order functions sounds familiar :)
17:38	jcromartie	but yeah
17:42	SegFaultAX	jcromartie: Upon further reflection, I also think some sort of tuple type would be a fantastic addition. Or a collection that can actually be used as a key in a map.
17:42	jcromartie	you can't use a table as a key? it's been a while
17:43	SegFaultAX	jcromartie: Sure you can. But the implementation uses the pointer as the key internally.
17:43	SegFaultAX	jcromartie: Which means to index that key, it has to be the /exact same object/.
17:43	jcromartie	yeah, not the value
17:45	SegFaultAX	jcromartie: Not having hashable tables makes sets very hard to implement.
17:45	SegFaultAX	jcromartie: So some other hashable collection could be introduced.
17:50	gjcourt	say I do a (ns foo (:require [clojure.tool.logging :as logging]) (pringln logging))
17:50	hiredman	won't work
17:50	gjcourt	right, is there any way that will work?
17:50	hiredman	(the compiler will spit out an error)
17:51	gjcourt	i get this ompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: logger in this context,
17:51	hiredman	gjcourt: how about you just ask how to do what you want to do, instead of asking how to make your half solution work
17:52	gjcourt	ok, i want to import clojure.tools.logging into a namespace and then use functions from logging as if it were in that namespace
17:53	gfredericks	(ns foo (:require [clojure.tools.logging :refer [the functions I want to use]]))
17:53	hiredman	are you saying you want to re-export the functions?
17:53	SegFaultAX	gjcourt: Also, http://blog.8thlight.com/colin-jones/2010/12/05/clojure-libs-and-namespaces-require-use-import-and-ns.html
17:53	SegFaultAX	gjcourt: That's the best article I've found for learning how require/import/use/refer work.
17:54	SegFaultAX	gjcourt: Including the nice shorthand syntax that the ns form provides.
17:54	gjcourt	thanks for the resouces guys :]
17:57	gjcourt	hiredman: ideally i could re-export then, yes
17:57	hiredman	gjcourt: is that your end goal?
17:58	gjcourt	i would like to be able to (use 'foo) (info "hello world")
17:58	gjcourt	where foo exports the info of clojure.tools.logging after setting up log4jk
18:00	hiredman	why?
18:00	clojurebot	why not?
18:01	hiredman	what problem doesn that solve that using tools.logging directly doesn't?
18:01	gjcourt	hiredman ideally i'd use http://www.paullegato.com/blog/log4j-clojure/ and the clj-logging-config library, but i need a custom appender and I'm not sure if clj-logging-config will allow me to config https://github.com/kencochrane/raven-java
18:02	hiredman	gjcourt: is that really an answer to my question?
18:02	gjcourt	exporting functions into my namespace is what it's not doing for me
18:03	hiredman	you have some code you want to run that configures the logger, and you have some code that logs
18:04	Moses_	Anyone know of a good example of doing model testing in clojure web apps? I'm trying to figure out how I should write my database backed model such that its easy to test.
18:04	hiredman	configuring logging and logging are two different things, so why not have a namespace that configures logging then you load it, and then just use clojure.tools.logging directly
18:04	gjcourt	and ideally that would all be owned in a "logging" namespace from withing my project so that I only have to do it once
18:04	gjcourt	hiredman i could do that
18:05	gjcourt	in fact it's what I'm doing, albeit not working atm because of some log4j wonkiness i don't understand, but yes
18:05	hiredman	gjcourt: have you considered just using log4j.properties? it is nice declarative logging config, which clj-logging-config is not
18:05	gjcourt	i have a log4j.properties
18:05	hiredman	and you need further config?
18:06	gjcourt	hiredman: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2110/Screenshots/0i2.png
18:06	gjcourt	im wondering why the appended isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing... and how i could be mis-configuring it
18:06	gjcourt	appender*
18:15	casion	is there any decent modern source of info on dealing with XML in clojure? almost everything I'm finding is out of date
18:18	hyPiRion	casion: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.xml
18:18	hyPiRion	Is that what you're after?
18:19	casion	hyPiRion: I've been trying to use clojure.xml and I'm not getting very far
18:19	casion	I need to parse, diff, mutate and write a large xml file
18:20	brehaut	casion: do you know about clojure.data.xml ?
18:20	mindbender1	emezeske: which cljsc does cljsbuild use when compiling clojurescript. Is there a place where I can get extensive documentation on how to configure the behavior and environment for cljsbuild
18:20	hyPiRion	ooo
18:20	casion	brehaut: no I do not
18:20	hyPiRion	(nevermind that, I'm cleaning my keyboard)
18:21	brehaut	casion: https://github.com/clojure/data.xml
18:21	casion	brehaut: thank you!
18:21	dnolen	mindbender1: the cljs compiler doesn't offer much more than what lein-cljsbuild provides. but no there's not a really a good reference atm beyond the source.
18:22	brehaut	casion: its not a panacea, and is i think a WIP, but its better than just clojure.xml by itself. i also use data.zip with it from memory
18:22	mindbender1	dnolen: I especially need to let cljsbuild know that goog.dom.query was provided by goog/dojo/dom/query.js, how can I do that
18:23	mindbender1	I have tried passing the libs option
18:23	casion	brehaut: I've been trying to mess around with data.zip, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around mutating things once I've hit the element I need
18:24	brehaut	casion: im trying to find an example of using it myself
18:24	brehaut	i also find it a wee bit of a mind bender
18:25	brehaut	casion: i cant claim this is a good example, but https://github.com/brehaut/necessary-evil/blob/master/src/necessary_evil/value.clj
18:25	brehaut	casion: looks like im using clojure.zip, clojure.xml, clojure.data.zip and clojure.data.zip.xml but not data.xml ?
18:25	dnolen	mindbender1: that's definitely a question for emezeske
18:26	brehaut	casion: so that shows how much i know sorry :(
18:26	casion	brehaut: I think you're making things worse lol :)
18:26	brehaut	yup
18:26	brehaut	very sorry
18:26	mindbender1	emezeske: come to my rescue
18:27	casion	brehaut: data.xml is a good re-start for me though, I think I can work with this
18:27	brehaut	phew. good luck
18:27	casion	you know, besides rewriting a day's worth of work
18:27	brehaut	:/
18:28	Cheiron	hi, vimclojure doc, section Omni completion . <C-X><C-O> i tried command-x and ctrl+x but nothing happened. what I'm missing?
18:28	mindbender1	cljsbuild source is actually a beast of a source
18:29	brehaut	casion: i dont know how they interact with data.xml but xml-> and xml1-> from data.zip.xml are really useful for walking stupid xml verbosity (such as you find in xml-rpc)
18:29	emezeske	mindbender1: I don't think you need to do anything special to use query.js, as long as it's on the classpath
18:29	sexpGirl	ooooh that is so sweet: our old (fatty) internal desktop Java apps have a custom way to add jars to the classpath dynamically at runtime (don't ask me why: not my call and it's been working fine since years and years) but... The nice stuff is I can call that method from Clojure's REPL (nrepl / nrepl.el under Emacs) and all our jars are dynamically added to the classpath. Me happy : )
18:29	mindbender1	emezeske: how do i get it on the path is my problem.. goog third party provides it
18:30	emezeske	mindbender1: Use the latest domina,?
18:30	mindbender1	yes
18:30	emezeske	That should be all AFAIK
18:31	casion	brehaut: I'm getting so confused between clojure.zip, clojure.data.zip, clojure.xml, clojure.data.zip, clojure.data.xml, clojure.data.zip.xml
18:31	brehaut	yeah :/
18:31	emezeske	mindbender1: https://github.com/levand/domina/blob/master/project.clj
18:31	emezeske	mindbender1: Domina depends on the third-party stuff.
18:31	casion	I would think someone has to have figured this out in the cljs world?
18:31	emezeske	mindbender1: If you're having problems, I think probably you need to talk to someone who knows about domina
18:32	emezeske	mindbender1: You are using domina "1.0.1-SNAPSHOT" ?
18:32	mindbender1	emezeske: ok thanks I'll try
18:32	mindbender1	yes
18:32	emezeske	mindbender1: Oh, wait, I have a thought
18:32	emezeske	mindbender1: Domina has the third-party lib as a dev dependency
18:33	emezeske	mindbender1: Are you using the dev profile?
18:33	mindbender1	yes
18:33	mindbender1	no
18:33	emezeske	Try that.
18:33	TimMc	hyPiRion: Locking screensavers are pretty much the best thing for when you nee to clean your keyboard.
18:36	casion	it seems like data.zip.xml is the most reasonable option for parsing and data.xmp for writing
18:36	casion	xml*
18:40	mindbender1	emezeske: yay!
18:41	mindbender1	how could I not have thought about that..thanks o much
18:41	emezeske	mindbender1: Glad to hear you got it working. Suggestion: fix the Domina docs!
18:42	emezeske	They should definitely mention that.
18:42	mindbender1	emezeske: ok will do
18:47	hyPiRion	TimMc: I'll keep that in mind.
18:48	technomancy	https://github.com/heroku/pulse/blob/master/src/pulse/emitter.clj#L31 <- is there ever a way this would make sense?
18:48	technomancy	(take-last (count @some-seq) @some-seq)
18:48	technomancy	o_O
18:49	hiredman	technomancy: take-last, not take
18:49	metellus	some-seq could change between the count and the take-last
18:50	metellus	it's not wrapped up in a dosync
18:50	technomancy	hiredman: I mean if N is the size of the seq, take is take-last, right?
18:50	technomancy	metellus: yeah, but take here is essentially identity, which is easy to do atomically =)
18:52	metellus	they do a lot more inside that let though, and it's all dependent on the value of (count @stats-buff-a)
18:53	technomancy	sure, but if you deref the seq first, then count that, it'd be guaranteed to be consistent
18:53	metellus	they also need to drop-last, but yes
18:53	metellus	I agree that they could and probably should do it that wya
18:53	metellus	way
18:54	sexpGirl	at the repl, is there a way to get a handle to the last object returned (from the last repl call)?
18:54	sexpGirl	Say I just created a JFrame and I'd like to close it, can I "get" it?
18:55	hiredman	you have 1, 2 and *3
18:55	mindbender1	technomancy: how can I get lein2 install task to install to local .m2 repo rather than just writing the jar to the taget dir
18:55	technomancy	mindbender1: I don't understand
18:56	sexpGirl	@hiredman: thanks, works fine
18:57	mindbender1	technomancy: oh sorry I think that's because cljsbuild hooked into the install task so the jar was written to the target dir
18:59	emezeske	mindbender1: lein-cljsbuild doesn't hook into install
18:59	mindbender1	emezeske: it does
18:59	emezeske	https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/blob/master/plugin/src/leiningen/cljsbuild.clj#L239
18:59	emezeske	It doesn't
18:59	emezeske	It might hook some other task that gets invoked during install
19:01	sexpGirl	so if there's 1, 2 and *3, when is an object returned by the REPL eligible for GC? (it's just out of curiosity)
19:02	mindbender1	when I first ran lein install in the domina root it triggered cljsbuild maybe the install task triggers the compile task
19:02	emezeske	I'm pretty sure it does.
19:03	emezeske	Anyway, I'm not sure what lein-cljsbuild has to do with .m2 repos or jars in target dirs
19:05	mindbender1	emezeske: I wanted the domina jar to be installed in my local .m2 repo
19:05	mindbender1	so that lein can pull it in from there
19:06	emezeske	But... what does that have to do with lein-cljsbuild ?
19:07	mindbender1	emezeske: nothing.. I thought it was a problem with lein to see the jar get written to the target dir
19:07	emezeske	I see.
19:07	mindbender1	but that's because it has hands off to cljsbuild
19:08	mindbender1	which I suspect wrote the jar to target dir
19:08	aperiodic	mindbender1: lein wrote the jar to the target dir. you need to have a jar to install, so it makes it, and it has to put it somewhere before it installs it, so it goes in the target dir.
19:09	mindbender1	aperiodic: what happens afterwards.. do I go to the target dir and invoke lein install again
19:09	aperiodic	mindbender1: no. the jar has been installed. you don't need to do anything.
19:10	aperiodic	mindbender1: i don't know why seeing the jar in the target dir is throwing you for such a loop
19:11	technomancy	sexpGirl: 1, 2, and *3 are all references that would prevent GC, if that's what you mean
19:12	mindbender1	aperiodic: because i actually thought it hadn't and maybe that I have to manually use mvn to install it
19:12	aperiodic	mindbender1: lein is awesome. trust it. ;)
19:12	mindbender1	sure
19:12	aperiodic	mindbender1: if you're really worried about that, though, you could just look in your ~/.m2
19:12	mindbender1	i did
19:12	mindbender1	it's there
19:21	mpan	,'&
19:21	clojurebot	&
19:21	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading
19:23	mpan	it's just a regular symbol, right? just that fn and the like treat it specially?
19:32	holo	hi
19:33	SrPx	How do I slice a collection? [1 2 3 4 5] to [2 3]
19:34	TimMc	mpan: Yes, the destructuring macro captures it. You can in fact (def & 5).
19:34	TimMc	SrPx: subvec on vectors if you don't mind that it keeps a reference to the original vector.
19:36	TimMc	sexpGirl: GC on a REPL return value can't happen until the value is a few lines back.
19:37	SrPx	It keeps a reference? How?
19:38	hiredman	trees
19:38	holo	i installed lein-heroku by putting :plugins [lein-heroku "0.1.1"] in project.clj. with lein deps it downloaded the file, but when i do `lein heroku help`, lein says: heroku is not a task. Use "lein help" to list all tasks. what's going bad?
19:40	technomancy	holo: that plugin is pretty old; I'd recommend using the toolbelt instead
19:40	technomancy	the JVM boot time is too annoying anyway
19:40	technomancy	for it to be a pleasant experience
19:42	TimMc	SrPx: subvec just modifies the index you give it and passes it through to the underlying vector.
19:43	SrPx	Is it any bad? TimMc
19:43	TimMc	s/you give it/you give the resulting vector-like get method/
19:43	Frozenlock	The google closure library offers a function to encode in base64, but accept an argument to make it 'websafe' and use an alternate alphabet. Does it mean that browsers won't accept some characters normally used in the typical base64? http://closure-library.googlecode.com/svn/docs/closure_goog_crypt_base64.js.html
19:44	TimMc	SrPx: It's only bad if the original vec is huge (or you do this in a big loop) and you don
19:44	TimMc	't let go of the subvec for a while.
19:46	SrPx	Is there an alternative ?
19:46	SrPx	Hm nvm,
19:46	holo	technomancy, i read a previous irc conversation with your intention to give up on this. i thought the development continued anyway, as there is a commit of about 16 days. i think besides those reasons, to have a git integrated, hands-off heroku tools installation is something desirable
19:46	technomancy	holo: the template is still maintained, and for the time being it's in the same repository
19:47	technomancy	how do you mean git-integrated?
19:48	SrPx	if I have a function 'shift' that rotates a vector 1 step right, and I want to rotate it n steps right, how do I do it? (what-goes-here n (shift my-vector))
19:48	holo	technomancy, i mean self contained
19:48	technomancy	you mean something that can be declared in project.clj?
19:49	holo	technomancy, yes, distributed as code, and then installed automatically inside the same repo
19:49	technomancy	yeah, there are pros and cons
19:50	technomancy	the major drawback is that it will always be lagging behind the canonical implementation and will only ever implement a pretty small subset of the commands
19:50	SrPx	wow, technomancy here ...
19:53	technomancy	I'm always here
19:54	SrPx	That's awkward.
19:54	Frozenlock	technomancy in #clojure is like the sun's rising each morning, except it's even more certain.
19:54	SrPx	Suddenly I feel like I'm around the people who run the world.
19:55	SrPx	Anyway, what is the right way to do this, again? (dotimes [x n] (last (do-something my-vec))) I know this is too verbose, I just want to apply do-something to my vector n times and return the result
19:56	aperiodic	(nth (iterate do-something my-vec) n)
19:56	technomancy	dotimes is for side-effects
19:56	SrPx	Hmm lmgt
19:59	SrPx	Thats fine, thanks
20:13	dale	I've got a map of objects from a Java library in an atom. I'm writing a function that does "find new object or create new and store it in the map." The catch is that creating the object has side-effects. What's the best way to do that? Right now I'm doing (locking the-map-of-objects ...find or create...).
20:14	dale	I'm not sure if it's advisable to grab the guard on a Clojure map instance? Would it be better to do something like compare-and-set the key in the map to my thread ID, and then only create and store the object if compare-and-set actually set?
20:14	hiredman	locking an immutable map is ridiculous
20:15	hiredman	e.g. any "change" is a new map, so your lock does nothing
20:15	hiredman	so you need to lock something else
20:15	dale	Duh, yes, thanks.
20:15	dale	As it turns out I'm actually locking the atom that contains the map, sorry.
20:16	dale	So change my above comment to read "I'm not sure if it's advisable to grab the guard on an atom." I don't know if Clojure does that itself. Really I just need any object I can lock so I can serialize the operations.
20:16	hiredman	dale: you may consider just using the contrib cache stuff
20:17	hiredman	dale: https://github.com/clojure/core.cache
20:20	dale	hiredman: OK, thanks, reading that now.
20:21	hiredman	(I am assuming you are making a cache or something similar)
20:22	dale	It's really not a cache. I'm working on a XMPP bot, so it's a collection of rooms the bot is in.
20:22	hiredman	seems pretty straight forward
20:22	hiredman	(swap! a conj (get-room-name))
20:23	Cheiron	Hi, what does this error mean: CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class
20:23	hiredman	ctor means constructor
20:24	chouser	It means your parameter count or types are incorrect
20:24	Cheiron	i'm trying to call SpoutConfig from clojure https://github.com/nathanmarz/storm-contrib/blob/master/storm-kafka/src/jvm/storm/kafka/SpoutConfig.java
20:25	Cheiron	for the first parameter I did: (java.util.ArrayList. ["localhost"]) and for the second: number-of-partitions (int 7)
20:25	Cheiron	the remaining three are strings
20:26	dale	hiredman: I've got a map of room names to MultiUserChat instances, which are objects you use to interact with the room. So my current code does (swap! rooms assoc room-name multi-user-chat-obj).
20:26	hiredman	dale: I would not recommend keeping mutable stateful objects inside clojure reference types
20:26	hiredman	well, maybe an agent
20:27	Cheiron	here is http://pastie.org/4832604
20:28	hiredman	dale: consider just keeping string names and recreating the muc objects as required, or keeping strings + a memoized string->muc function
20:28	dale	hiredman: I thought about using an agent, but that felt a bit like overkill. Plus the "asynchronicity" of that gets in the way of the API I'm trying to develop a bit. I could do that, though.
20:28	aperiodic	Cheiron: gotta put the (int number-of-partition) in the ctor special form
20:28	aperiodic	Cheiron: otherwise it's a long
20:29	dale	hiredman: Can you give me the gist of the problem with keeping some library's stateful/mutable objects in a Clojure map?
20:29	Cheiron	aperiodic: sorry but i'm not following you, I already calling (int) on number-of-partitions
20:30	aperiodic	Cheiron: by the time it gets to the ctor, it's a long.
20:30	Cheiron	aperiodic: ? why?
20:31	hiredman	dale: functions applied to refs or atoms can be run multiple times, so something like (swap! a (fn [x] (.someMethod (:blah x)))) can result in calling .someMethod multiple times
20:31	dale	hiredman: A memoized string->muc function would seem to be the same thing I'm proposing, looking at the source for (memoize). It looks like it just makes an atom with a map. It also wouldn't prevent me from accidentally creating two MultiUserChat instances for the same room if two requests to join came in at the same time.
20:31	hiredman	dale: the clojure reference types are designed to provide indentities over values
20:32	Cheiron	aperiodic : this (SpoutConfig. kafka-brokers (int number-of-partitions) docs-jobs-topic zk-root consumer-id) still issues the same error
20:33	hiredman	Cheiron: make sure the code you are looking at in github matches the version of the library you are running against
20:33	aperiodic	Cheiron: hmm... I can't reproduce this now, but i feel like i've run into that before
20:33	aperiodic	Cheiron: ignore me
20:35	Cheiron	hiredman: other possible diagnoses?
20:35	hiredman	Cheiron: the code you are actually running (whatever version of the library you pulled in) is not the same as what is on the master branch in github
20:36	hiredman	so check
20:36	hiredman	man javap and dump the bytecode of the class
20:36	dale	hiredman: OK, I can appreciate that. However, practically speaking, I've got these muc instances I want to keep around. I guess I'm asking what the best way to interop with Java is in this case. Use of locking is just the first thing that came to mind.
20:37	hiredman	the best way is to avoid xmpp and smack if you can do it :)
20:38	hiredman	streaming xml is not a good start to anything
20:38	aperiodic	i think i was confusing two different changes that happened with 1.3 numerics
20:38	dale	Heh.
20:39	Cheiron	hiredman: that is scary :D you are right!!
20:39	dale	I'd actually rather be on IRC, but unfortunately I'm on XMPP. Smack is actually pretty nice looking to me so far.
20:39	hiredman	last time I messed with smack, I found that dealing with it at a very low level (below most of smack) was best
20:39	dale	Complete non-Clojure-ness of Smack aside.
20:39	dale	OK, I'll just keep my use of locking in place until something blows up on me because of it.
20:40	hiredman	so I would create muc objects, which would cause smack to join the muc, then just discard the objects and deal with the packets directly
20:40	dale	I'm actually kind of surprised this isn't a more common issue when dealing with Java libraries, but I haven't done much with Java in a good long while I suppose.
20:40	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/master/src/hiredman/clojurebot/xmpp.clj#L71
20:41	technomancy	is CL-style gensym usage the only way to make a macro that has a let which spans multiple syntax-quotes?
20:41	technomancy	I should know this
20:41	hiredman	yes
20:42	technomancy	cool, thanks
20:42	aperiodic	what is CL-style gensym usage?
20:42	mpan	Is there a recommended way to reinterpret the standard "loop and modify state" operations of an imperative application in a functional style?
20:42	hiredman	,(let [x (gemsym)] `(let [~x 1] ~x))
20:42	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: gemsym in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
20:43	hiredman	,(let [x (gensym)] `(let [~x 1] ~x))
20:43	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [G__54 1] G__54)
20:43	mpan	as in, the main loop of a given application
20:43	technomancy	aperiodic: you don't want to know; it's a mess =)
20:43	gfredericks	mpan: the simplest transformation is the loop form; but probably not the most idiomatic
20:44	mpan	or rephrased: how do clojure applications tend to structure the core of their state and its transformations?
20:44	gfredericks	state is avoided when you can do it without bending over too far backwards; 98% of the rest of the time you use an atom or two
20:46	rads	mpan: the book Clojure Programming has some good information on that topic
20:47	mpan	thanks guys!
21:00	SrPx	Why this won't work? (def (symbol "x") 1)
21:00	Bronsa	because def expects a symbol
21:00	Bronsa	and (symbol "x") wont get evaluated
21:00	SrPx	How do I make a symbol from a string?
21:01	Bronsa	dirty trick, (def #=(symbol "x") 1) but don't do that.
21:02	emezeske	SrPx: (eval `(def ~(symbol "x") 1))
21:02	emezeske	SrPx: I would probably never do that, though
21:02	SrPx	Why?
21:02	clojurebot	why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone
21:02	emezeske	SrPx: Why do you need to def something where you don't know the symbol name up front?
21:02	brehaut	these days the answer to why is the ram gone is frequently 'jquery'
21:03	Bronsa	just (defmacro (def-by-string [str & body] `(def ~(symbol str) ~@ body))
21:03	Bronsa	(defmacro def-by-string [str & body] `(def ~(symbol str) ~@ body))
21:04	SrPx	emezeske: something like that (doseq [op ["+" "-" "*" "/"]] (defn (str "vec" op) ...))
21:04	SrPx	to define vec+, vec- and so on (just for learning)
21:04	SrPx	Bronsa: do you know a good macro tutorial?
21:06	emezeske	SrPx: I see. A macro is definitely what you want, then.
21:07	emezeske	As an aside, I would note that * and / for vectors will have substantially different implementations than + and -, if you want to follow the mathematical semantics...
21:08	SrPx	No no.
21:08	emezeske	:)
21:08	SrPx	Any recommended macro tutorial , though ?
21:09	emezeske	SrPx: A last quick question: is (vec+ a b) much better than (map + a b)?
21:10	SrPx	emezeske: no, just for learning, really
21:10	emezeske	Cool.
21:11	SrPx	But wait, that wont work
21:11	emezeske	?
21:15	SrPx	emezeske: nevermind, I thought it was missing a 'zip' somewhere. But if map does what zip does, then what does clojure's zip do? o.o
21:19	SurlyFrog	At one point, were vars dynamic by default and now (1.4.0) you need to explicity specify ^:dynamic when you create it?
21:20	aperiodic	SrPx: turn things into zippers. not at all related.
21:22	SrPx	Might I ask what a zipper is ?
21:23	aperiodic	SrPx: a way of traversing and editing tree structures
21:24	SrPx	Hmm OK. Thanks!
21:24	cemerick	SrPx: Known as Huet Zippers, implemented in clojure.zip
21:25	SrPx	I know I'm asking too much, but I've read somewhere there is a trick you can use with (require) so it brings everything to the current namespace. I can't find it because I don't know the word. What is it?
21:25	casion	oh, new people here…
21:25	SrPx	?
21:25	casion	wrong chat :\| sorry
21:26	casion	while I'm here though I may as well ask again: I need to parse, diff/merge and write and xml file, what would be the ideal way to do about it?
21:26	cemerick	SrPx: You're thinking of :refer; you should generally be selective in what you refer in though: http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/require
21:27	casion	and=an
21:28	SurlyFrog	SrPx: If you are at the REPL, you can also use the `use` form. That should take all public functions from the specified namespac and include them in the current namespace.
21:28	SrPx	cemerick: thanks
21:28	SrPx	SurlyFrog: Only from the REPL?
21:28	SurlyFrog	But, as cemerick stated, it's not really recommended
21:28	SurlyFrog	better form to just import what you really need
21:30	SurlyFrog	Um, I /think/ so….I've always `ns` from code
22:05	cjfrisz	I think tonight is a 2 beers while coding kind of night
22:05	cjfrisz	But two beers of victory!
22:09	dnolen	cjfrisz: looking forward to your talk!
22:09	cjfrisz	dnolen: Thanks! Are you speaking, as well?
22:10	dnolen	cjfrisz: no, I passed on submitting anything this year.
22:10	cjfrisz	dnolen: But you're going to be there, right?
22:11	dnolen	cjfrisz: but sounds like there'll be good IU representation this year ;)
22:11	dnolen	cjfrisz: yes
22:11	cjfrisz	dnolen: Excellent! I've been wanting to actually meet you in person!
22:11	dnolen	cjfrisz: the same!
22:13	dnolen	cjfrisz: Will & Dan's prez went over very at Strange Loop.
22:13	cjfrisz	dnolen: I heard!
22:13	dnolen	cjfrisz: not everday you see a type inference for the simply typed lambda calc built in 10 mins.
22:13	cjfrisz	dnolen: I haven't seen it yet
22:14	clj_newb_234	is CLIM the most amazing GUI that lisp ever had?
22:14	clj_newb_234	(I'm implementing a graphical interactive repl in clojurescript that executes on clojure, and want to know what to study)
22:49	hammer	so has anyone run clojurebot themselves?
22:49	hammer	fiddling with the source code but i can't figure out how to start the thing
22:51	Sgeo_	Is Catnip considered any good?
22:52	hammer	Sgeo_: I haven't used it yet, but it looks really promising, especially with things like noir
22:52	uvtc	Sgeo_: cats think it's pretty swell. ;)
23:29	uvtc	What is the technical difference between a special form and a macro? I see that `if` and `def` are special froms, whereas `and` and `or` are macros...
23:31	eggsby	a macro is a special form uvtc
23:31	eggsby	special forms in general are things that do not follow the basic function application/value rules
23:32	eggsby	i.e. if it isn't just a functions body being gradually substituted by the values of it's parameters then it can be said to be a 'special form'
23:32	uvtc	eggsby: Sounds good. Thanks.
23:33	uvtc	I noticed that, in the output of `(doc ...)`, it actually spells out "Special Form" for `def` and `let`, whereas others specifically says "Macro".
23:33	uvtc	But I see what you mean: all macros are special forms.
23:35	eggsby	uvtc: you could say a macro is a special type of special form
23:35	uvtc	It's extra special. :)
23:37	eggsby	if is for building predicates, def is for assigning things for future reference, macros are for manipulating syntax trees :)
23:37	SrPx	http://lispwannabe.wordpress.com/2008/10/24/closures-in-clojure/ this is not a closure, is it ?
23:38	shachaf	Looks like a closure to me.
23:38	shachaf	But what does "closure" mean? Usually when people say it they refer to an implementation detail.
23:38	shachaf	If you mean lexical scope, that piece of code certainly uses lexical scope.
23:39	cjfrisz	shachaf: a closure generally refers to a function which closes over the values of its free variables
23:40	cjfrisz	shachaf: In the fn that is returned by the function definition, x is free and closes over the value given by the argument
23:40	shachaf	cjfrisz: I know that.
23:41	cjfrisz	shachaf: More generally, a good non-implementational definition of a closure is "code and the value of its free variables"
23:41	shachaf	That seems "implementational" to me. :-)
23:41	Urthwhyte	Quick Q: What's the clj equivalent of mechanize+beautifulsoup?
23:41	SrPx	I thought a closure was a function that returned a function that could access and update variables local to that function
23:42	shachaf	No.
23:42	cjfrisz	SrPx: See my definition above
23:42	shachaf	You're probably best off not worrying about what the word "closure" means. Lexical scope is the important concept.
23:43	eggsby	Urthwhyte: you can use clj-http to scrape html, you could use enlive to parse html and select nodes
23:43	eggsby	plenty of parsing options tho
23:43	SrPx	cjfrisz: what do you mean with closes over?
23:43	eggsby	SrPx: in either case, clojure certainly supports closures :)
23:43	eggsby	SrPx: https://www.refheap.com/paste/5348
23:44	Urthwhyte	eggsby: Would it be recommended to use clj-http over java.url? I assume it's just a wrapper?
23:44	SrPx	shachaf: why? I liked to use what I thought was a closure on my last language.
23:44	eggsby	clj-http rules Urthwhyte
23:44	eggsby	you definitely want the ring abstraction
23:44	eggsby	it makes http a pleasure to work with, java.url not so much
23:45	cjfrisz	SrPx: Do you see how "x" is free in the body of "plusn"
23:45	eggsby	enlive is kind of complex but pretty powerful, there's stuff like tagsoup and things with jquery-ish syntax as well
23:45	SrPx	'free'?
23:45	cjfrisz	SrPx: The function that "plusn" returns doesn't bind "x"
23:45	cjfrisz	SrPx: It uses the value that was passed to plusn
23:45	Urthwhyte	I'm a Python/Ruby convert - working with Java all summer at Google made me appreciate the JVM, but man do I hate the language :(
23:46	eggsby	Urthwhyte: https://github.com/swannodette/enlive-tutorial/
23:46	Urthwhyte	so Clojure is geting me back to scheme roots
23:46	cjfrisz	SrPx: In other words, it's closing over the value of "x"
23:46	eggsby	this tutorial starts out by scraping hackernews
23:46	Urthwhyte	Going through that right now :)
23:46	eggsby	nice
23:46	SrPx	hmm
23:46	shachaf	cjfrisz: I'd be perfectly happy with saying that ((fn [x] (fn [y] (+ x y))) 5) = (fn [y] (+ 5 y)), for example. No free variables. :-)
23:47	eggsby	SrPx: you can call many different things closures
23:47	cjfrisz	shachaf: Yes, but that argument only works in the concrete example of applying that function
23:48	cjfrisz	Without the application, x is still free in the body of the inner fn
23:48	shachaf	OK, but you said that the closure is that function with its free variables.
23:48	SrPx	That's what I thought of a closure, and it's on the definition on WIkipedia, so let's use that: def counter(): x = 0 def increment(y): nonlocal x x += y print(x) return increment
23:48	SrPx	How would you implement this in clojure?
23:49	cjfrisz	Ahh, no, I said is the function with the values of its free variables
23:49	shachaf	cjfrisz: Right.
23:49	shachaf	I'm perfectly happy to say "x is free in (fn [y] (+ x y))"
23:50	cjfrisz	shachaf: Good, because that's the right way to say it :-)
23:50	shachaf	Talking about free variables is important.
23:51	shachaf	Talking about lexical scope is important.
23:51	cjfrisz	Amen
23:51	shachaf	Talking about closures is probably not as important. :-)
23:51	shachaf	Certainly when you're vague on all these concepts, and you're not implementing anything.
23:52	cjfrisz	shachaf: for the most part, I agree
23:52	cjfrisz	I think it's worth getting the idea of lexical scope and free variables down pat first
23:52	cjfrisz	That's certainly how all the good PL books present it: lexical scope and free varialbes, then closures
23:54	uvtc	Say, jumping in here, but just so I understand the terminology correctly: free variables are the ones which live outside of your lexical scope, but which are closed over and which you can access from inside your local scope, correct?
23:54	shachaf	Are you defining "free variable" in terms of "closure"? :-(
23:55	shachaf	uvtc: A use of a variable is free in an expression if it isn't bound to anything.
23:55	SrPx	I guess I understand all those
23:56	eggsby	it's strange because in clojure we don't work with variables often
23:56	uvtc	shachaf: Right --- it's already set up outside the lexical scope.
23:56	eggsby	mostly we simply work with values
23:56	shachaf	For example, x isn't free in (fn [x] x), but y is free in (fn [x] y)
23:56	SrPx	The python example I put in implements a counter using closure. It defines x on counter's scope and returns increment which uses that x.
23:56	shachaf	SrPx: Stop worrying about, like, mutation, man.
23:56	SrPx	And increments it. Right? How would you do that in clojure, for illustration?
23:57	shachaf	Don't increment things. Why would you do that?
23:57	uvtc	eggsby: Right. No variables, per se.
23:57	eggsby	in the counter example of mutating some nonlocal state, that's just something you wouldn't do in clojure, you can, but it'd be about as far from "idiomatic" as you could get
23:57	SrPx	shachaf: because it is the example ?
23:57	eggsby	now, you could do it by simply redefining some symbol over and over
23:57	shachaf	Well, it's an irrelevant example.
23:57	eggsby	but I don't think that would be a particularly useful example of a closure
23:57	shachaf	Y'all're all about immutability, right?
23:58	SrPx	Sure, will that symbol be on counter's scope?
23:59	eggsby	no, it would be in the namespaces scope
23:59	cemerick	odd: why does (goog.getUid x) work in cljs? (goog/getUid x) also works (as I'd expect).
23:59	SrPx	That's weird