#clojure – 2012-08-10

2012-08-10

00:10	mk	is compile-time something different from read/eval-time?
00:14	_tca	mk: it's a part of "eval-time"
00:14	mk	does it refer only to the evaluation of fns (compilation/bytecode generation), or to any eval?
00:15	_tca	what other kind of eval is there?
00:18	mk	well, when (+ 1 2) is evaluation, no bytecode is generated. + is mapped to an instance of a fn, that fn takes 1 and 2 and returns 3. But when fn explicitly eval'd (through loading or repl), bytecode is generated
00:18	mk	evaluated*
00:20	mk	so basically, the thing that eval usually does is one thing, and then there are times when eval hits a freshly-read fn special form, and bytecode generation occurs
00:20	_tca	how does that not get compiled?
00:21	mk	_tca: does what not get compiled?
00:21	_tca	(+ 1 2)
00:21	clojurebot	3
00:21	uvtc	clojurebot no longer needs the weirding module!
00:22	uvtc	I mean, you know, the leading comma.
00:22	mk	well, + got compiled a long time ago. Then an instance was assigned into the clojure namespace map under "+" (and probably copied to the current namespace)
00:22	mk	(fn [] 1)
00:22	mk	,(fn [] 1)
00:22	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval27$fn__28 sandbox$eval27$fn__28@647c1f70>
00:22	mk	,(fn [] 1)
00:22	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval55$fn__56 sandbox$eval55$fn__56@68ad1b9f>
00:23	mk	the difference between 28 and 56 means that a new fn class was compiled, and instantiated
00:25	_tca	so a program that has no function defenitions in it doesn't get compiled?
00:26	mk	yeah I'm not sure what the terminology on that is. But yes in the sense of no-class-is-generated, I think that's the case
00:27	mk	a bunch of instances just get... instantiated
00:31	mk	actually, I think the only time something like a function gets instantiated programmatically is in the case of (defn makefn [] (fn [] 1))
00:41	brainproxy	okay.. so my coworker is building a clojure project which my clojure project depends on; the latter is not open source, so can't put it out on clojars, but it's in a private repo on github so I can get at it easily enough
00:42	brainproxy	what's the best way to set it up as a dep in my project.clj?
00:43	brainproxy	i'm not asking about syntax so much as I am about a methodology that favors repeatability, short of setting up a private clojars instance
00:43	dnolen	brainproxy: you can install it locally. if it's a git repo, lein checkouts works.
00:43	brainproxy	oh, derp
00:43	xeqi	best -> company repository ; easiest -> git pull and `lein install`
00:44	brainproxy	didn't even know about lein checkout
00:44	dnolen	brainproxy: supposedly deprecated but pretty darn useful still.
00:45	brainproxy	yeah.. `lein help checkout` didn't give me anything
00:45	dnolen	brainproxy: people involved in or using CLJS use it all the time when testing against CLJS HEAD
00:46	brainproxy	dnolen: is it a pre lein2 feature only?
00:47	dnolen	brainproxy: I believe it still exists in lein2 in some form.
00:47	brainproxy	researching..
00:48	xeqi	brainproxy: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/FAQ.md - question 5
00:49	brainproxy	xeqi: cool, thatnks
01:08	uvtc	Just a ##(println "test") here.
01:08	lazybot	⇒ test nil
01:11	brainproxy	so I have my checkouts/ dir and the other project symlinked into it, e.g. checkouts/foo
01:11	brainproxy	but when I `lein repl` in my project and (require 'foo), it says it can't find it on the classpath
01:12	brainproxy	i tried sticking it in :dependencies but then the repl wouldn't start at all, as it couldn't find the dep... like it's not checking in checkouts/
01:12	brainproxy	I must be missing a step
01:15	xeqi	step1 : make it work without checkouts
01:16	brainproxy	nvm, i'm just tired, was doing something stupid
01:16	xeqi	then you can use checkouts to work on them in parallel
01:16	mk	how do things get added to (loaded-libs)?
01:16	mk	is load, which loads from the classpath, the only way?
01:19	mk	if I call (ns ...) from the repl, nothing new appears in loaded-libs
01:26	tomoj	maybe use all-ns instead?
01:26	tomoj	require/etc work for adding stuff to (loaded-libs)
01:32	muhoo	lein checkout is good when you're depending on a moving target in development
01:33	muhoo	for production, if the jar is private, a private repo is better though.
01:33	brainproxy	muhoo: you mean setup a private clojars or maven?
01:33	muhoo	i mean a private maven repo, which i found is just a directory tree
01:34	brainproxy	ah gotcha
01:34	muhoo	there's some maven tools to create one IIRC, but i just hacked one up by mimicking the directory structureo of ~/.m2
01:34	muhoo	structure, not structureo. this isn't core.logic
01:34	brainproxy	speaking of that... so i have checkouts/foo, and foo has something like this
01:34	brainproxy	:repositories {"local" ~(str (.toURI (java.io.File. "./maven_repository")))}
01:34	xeqi	`lein deploy file:///path/to/repo` might work
01:35	brainproxy	and some of foo's deps are indeed in ./maven_repository
01:35	xeqi	to publish to a file repo
01:35	brainproxy	now, if I launch a repl in the project root of foo, all is well
01:35	brainproxy	however, if I'm in the project which has foo in chckouts/foo
01:36	muhoo	might. i do checkouts by having for example stuff/foo stuff/bar , and then "ln -s stuff/foo stuff/bar/checkouts/foo" then, from bar, i have access to foo
01:36	brainproxy	and I launch a repl, when i (require 'foo.core) it's throwing exception complaining about missing classes
01:36	mk	tomoj: I'm mostly wondering what (loaded-libs) is used for
01:36	brainproxy	iow, it doesn't seem to be honoring the ./maven_repository thing
01:39	xeqi	brainproxy: in foo, if you do `lein pom` does it produce a relative path?
01:39	xeqi	in the <repository> tag for that
01:40	muhoo	i don't remember the syntax of :repositories, but i'd try :repositories {"myrepo" "file:///maven_repository"}
01:40	muhoo	oh, wait
01:40	muhoo	:local-repo "/home/dude/.lein/repo"
01:40	muhoo	that too
02:00	rbarraud	Hiya arbscht
02:00	rbarraud	Any highlights here today?
03:19	arrdem	,(doc conj)
03:19	clojurebot	"([coll x] [coll x & xs]); conj[oin]. Returns a new collection with the xs 'added'. (conj nil item) returns (item). The 'addition' may happen at different 'places' depending on the concrete type."
03:39	rahcola	if I have a type defined by (defrecord Foo []), why (= (type (Foo.)) (type (->Foo))) => false
03:52	ejackson	rahcola: weirdness. You shouldn't get that. I'm on 1.4 and it evals to true
03:53	yonatane	Is there a proper version of the 2008 Clojure Sequences talk? http://blip.tv/clojure/clojure-sequences-740581
03:54	yonatane	This one is cut after a few seconds
03:55	rahcola	ejackson: ok, this might be something related to the repl session
04:20	rahcola	or not, even in a clean repl session (= (Behavior. 1 1) (->Behavior 1 1)) => false
04:21	rahcola	where (defrecord Behavior [name duration])
04:26	ejackson	rahcola, clojure-version ?
04:28	clgv	rahcola: works in 1.4.0
04:29	clgv	in 1.3.0 as well
04:30	ejackson	rahcola: I had a similar experience before when using AOT compilation as -> does some strange stuff
04:30	ejackson	do you have .class files lying around perhaps ?
04:32	clgv	it might happen if you compiled the defrecord two times
04:34	clgv	like that: (defrecord Behavior [name duration]) (def a (->Behavior 1 1)) (defrecord Behavior [name duration]) (def b (Behavior. 1 1)) (= a b) => false
04:38	clgv	rahcola: (->Behavior 1 1) expands to (new user.Behavior 1 1) as well as (Behavior. 1 1) does - provided the record has less than 20 fields
04:45	rahcola	ok, definately a problem with stale .class files
04:45	rahcola	purged them, and now the project doesn't even compile
04:47	rahcola	yeah, solved
04:53	clgv	rahcola: what was it?
04:54	rahcola	stale .class file for the record type I guess
04:54	rahcola	the ->TypeName function probably held a reference to the old class and the TypeName. was using the new class
04:54	rahcola	or something
04:55	rahcola	appearantly I need to make a habbit of running lein clean
04:58	rahcola	ejackson, clgv: thanks for the help
04:59	otfrom	morning
05:05	ejackson	morning
05:05	naeg	hi *
05:11	otfrom	ejackson: we really need to get stuck back into redstats with all our spare time
05:12	ejackson	otfrom: hehe sparetime -> 0 :)
05:13	otfrom	tell me about it
05:14	otfrom	though as Sam Aaron suggested we should make time instead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-GGEJRz6So&feature=related
05:15	ejackson	Sam is a smart dude :)
05:23	clgv	"This video is not available in your country." - hoooorrrray to intellectual property :(
05:26	otfrom	boo
05:26	otfrom	it is the Making Time bit from Withnail and I if you can find a non-UK version to watch
06:02	kral	namaste
08:22	_ato	anyone know of a Clojure source parser and serializer pair that preserves whitespace and comments?
08:24	clgv	_ato: what's the goal?
08:25	_ato	script bumping of version numbers in project.clj
08:26	_ato	I'll just hack it with regexes otherwise, I've several times found myself wanting to be able to manipulate a file full of Clojure data or even code without messing up the formatting though and wondered if anyone's has the same itch and solved it. ;-)
08:28	clgv	_ato: I'd go with regexps as well
08:29	cemerick	_ato: you're looking for https://github.com/cgrand/sjacket
08:29	clgv	cemerick: interesting
08:29	cemerick	_ato: It's rough, but worked well when I was fiddling to accomplish the same thing.
08:30	cemerick	And, the regex approach is already underway @ https://github.com/relaynetwork/lein-release if sjacket proves not-yet-ready
08:31	_ato	brilliant
08:32	_ato	lein-release's README is virtually identical to the one I just wrote
08:32	_ato	cemerick: thanks!
08:32	cemerick	:-)
08:32	cemerick	I'm hoping sjacket can eventually be brought in. It definitely seems to be a brighter path than regexes.
08:35	_ato	I even searched for "lein-release" but was distracted by a decoy. https://github.com/technomancy/lein-release
08:36	cemerick	sneaky :-\|
08:51	eduard	is it possible to reset emacs/swank repl after I use'd clojure.string - it says "replace already refers..." and doesn't compile?
08:52	eduard	or I need to restart clojure-jack-in?
08:57	clgv	if I have projectX is there a possibility to include projectX.jar as jar in the projectX-standalone.jar?
08:58	jsabeaudry	Wow, just wow, RandomAccessFile.writeShort does 2 writes of 1 byte instead of 1 write of 2 bytes...
09:07	jsabeaudry	No wonder java is slow
09:07	clgv	jsabeaudry: you can switch to java.nio
09:08	loliviera	hi, i'm trying to use clj-time and congomongo but i can;t make the conversion work. I'm receving the following error message when i try to extend ConvertibleFromMongo as indicated by the docs: interface somnium.congomongo.coerce.ConvertibleFromMongo is not a protocol
09:08	loliviera	but i'm sure the ConvertibleFromMongo is a prococol
09:08	loliviera	https://github.com/aboekhoff/congomongo/blob/master/src/somnium/congomongo/coerce.clj#L31
09:11	cemerick	jsabeaudry: "RandomNamespacingEntity.foo does $STUPID_THING. No wonder $LANGUAGE is slow." :-\|
09:15	ro_st	macrologists, i'd appreciate some input: https://www.refheap.com/paste/4225 disclaimer: i've written zero macros.
09:17	ro_st	the resulting functions are used in an undo/redo stack, which, when run, returns a closure for undo to use, which, when run, returns a closure for the redo to use, which, when run, returns a closure for the undo to use… you get the idea
09:18	clgv	ro_st: can you minimize this example? or break it up into it's several features?
09:18	ro_st	i already have working undo/redo and several fns that do this written in long-hand. i'm wondering if i can clean up
09:18	jsabeaudry	clgv, Thanks I'll look into that, any idea which class has equivalent functionality in nio?
09:18	ro_st	let me cut out the concrete
09:18	clgv	jsabeaudry: there should be a shortbuffer
09:24	XPherior	Can anyone help me come up with an implementation for the 'with-specification' function? https://gist.github.com/1a69309438b44227e9ca
09:24	XPherior	It should return a vector of pairs (names to values). In the end, I want to pass that to a let form.
09:25	clgv	XPherior: (defmacro with-specification [& args] [~@args]) - but it seems of not much use
09:27	XPherior	clgv: Gimmie a sec to think.
09:27	clgv	XPherior: you could just write the let-form instead
09:28	XPherior	clgv: I'm used it in conjunction with a 'where' macro, like the Haskell style.
09:28	XPherior	Where turns it into a let
09:29	clgv	XPherior: maybe you should sketch what it should do? input, output ...
09:30	XPherior	clgv: I think I've confused myself with too many macros. :)
09:30	ro_st	clgv: https://www.refheap.com/paste/4226
09:30	wmealing	say i wanted to mention the line number in a log file, how can i find the current line number easily ?
09:32	XPherior	wmealing: I'm not sure that's going to be easy because of how it compiles to Java and/or bytecode. :/
09:33	XPherior	Maybe I'm completely wrong though.
09:33	wmealing	that was my thought too
09:33	wmealing	although the reader somehow knows about it
09:33	XPherior	That's true/
09:34	XPherior	clgv: I want to do something like: (let (with-spec (x 1)) x) ; => 1
09:34	XPherior	Basically have with-spec return a vector
09:34	XPherior	The macro you wrote was the same thing I did, it doesn't work
09:35	wmealing	XPherior, my motive was simply for the debugger to be able to know where the logline was generated
09:36	XPherior	wmealing: Yeah, I understand why you'd want that.
09:38	ckirkendall	ro_st: why do you do something like (defcommand [inval] {:do #(...) :undo #(..).}) then you could do this with out macros.
09:39	clgv	XPherior: but thats a simple let. why call it different?
09:40	XPherior	Because another macro is going to stick it in the let. I'm using a where macro to declare my data at the bottom of a test.
09:41	XPherior	I'll show you if I can write it the way I want. It's going to be a really neat testing language
09:41	clgv	XPherior: uff that sounds like you complicate it a lot
09:42	XPherior	It's not as bad as it sounds.
09:43	ro_st	ckirkendall: i'd like to use a macro to wire up the fns so that they return closures of each other
09:43	ro_st	but, for readablity, i'd like the hand-wrtten source to simply be :do … and :undo ...
09:44	ro_st	also, i'd like the macro to produce te code that does the register at the bottom, so that it's all nice and DRY
09:44	ckirkendall	how about this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/4227
09:45	ckirkendall	ro_st: it would also be eays to add syntax checking in for :do and :undo
09:45	clgv	ro_st: have a look at an article or book chapter on macro. when you read it you should be able to straightforwardly write that down
09:47	ckirkendall	ro_st: I missed the recusion piece of this.
09:47	clgv	ro_st: generating multiple forms in a macro can be done, e.g. via `(do (defn ...) (register ...))
09:48	ro_st	ckirkendall's first stab gives me enough to get me all the way, i think
09:48	clgv	ro_st: I mean the macro returns code that defines the function first and then registers it
09:49	ro_st	oh, no. it doesn't show how to put the undo inside the do at ?undo, which is the whole point of the exercise (so that the undo has access to the do's let bindings because it's a closure
09:49	ro_st	clgv: i have done some reading, and i suppose i should do more homework before consulting #clojure
09:50	clgv	ro_st: one hint - build the macro incrementally and check if each step works as expected with macroexpand
09:52	ro_st	good advice, thank you
09:53	casion_	out of curiosity are there any other decent working environments for clojure besides counterclockwise/emacs+slime/vimclojure?
09:53	ro_st	emacs+nrepl.el :-)
09:54	ro_st	some folks use intellij and la-clojure, i believe
09:54	casion_	ro_st: I havent been able to find those folks :\|
09:55	ro_st	not got the patience to learn emacs?
09:55	casion_	trying to get my brother to try out clojure and he can't stand emacs, vim or eclipse
09:55	ro_st	ah
09:55	casion_	I've used emacs for 2 decades lol
09:55	ro_st	the counter-intuitive issue is that clojure is easier with emacs
09:55	casion_	trying to get others to try clojure
09:55	ro_st	but getting emacs first is hard
09:55	casion_	yeah, I know
09:55	michaelr`	casion_: i'm using sublime2 for editing clojure
09:56	ro_st	2 decades, nice. you must be close to approaching novicehood, now?
09:56	michaelr`	and `lein repl` for repl
09:56	ro_st	michaelr`: masochist
09:56	casion_	michaelr`: I looked into that, can you give me an overview of its capabilities with the clojure plugin?
09:56	michaelr`	i didn't try the clojure plugin
09:56	casion_	ro_st: pretty much. I can use it pretty well, but I still don't know a lick of elisp
09:56	michaelr`	i just use it for editing
09:56	casion_	that long using emacs, and clojure is my first lisp heh
09:57	michaelr`	ro_st: the painfull thing sometimes is that I don't have a debugger at hand
09:57	casion_	michaelr`: so you run lien-repl in a terminal (or inside st2?)
09:57	michaelr`	ro_st: when i tried ccw i looked like the debugger there works really well
09:57	ro_st	michaelr`: coding without paredit is the painful thing
09:58	michaelr`	casion_: in a terminal
09:58	casion_	yeah, I've only been using clojure for about a month, and I can't begin to think of how people manage without paredit
09:58	ro_st	and having to manually copy code into a repl? ouch
09:58	ro_st	that'd do my bloody head in
09:58	casion_	michaelr`: yeah, how do you handle testing while you work in st2?
09:59	casion_	just copy stuff to the repl?
09:59	michaelr`	ro_st: well, i mostly don't copy code there. i usually change something in the editor and then reload the namespace to try it
09:59	wmealing	XPherior, http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-849?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel
09:59	michaelr`	or when i just need to try something i just type it in the repl
10:00	wmealing	i dont know if you care, or dont.. but either way i'm not the only one who wants it
10:00	ckirkendall	ro_st: adding in the recursion actually made this a bit simpler. https://www.refheap.com/paste/4227
10:01	ro_st	michaelr`: take a week off, learn emacs, come back to me so that i can apologise to you for the pain you went through, and so that i can accept your gratitude for the suggestion -grin-
10:01	casion_	a week to learn emacs?
10:01	michaelr`	hehe
10:01	michaelr`	i tried using emacs a few times
10:01	michaelr`	even with paredit and slime
10:02	ro_st	took me a week to get to the point where i could open it, open a file, start a repl, compile and run
10:02	ro_st	without swearing once
10:02	casion_	a week?
10:02	michaelr`	i just can't stand it, it's such a time demanding piece of junk
10:02	XPherior	Okay, I can simplify the problem. I want to pass the args x 1 y 2 to a function or macro and get back [x 1 y 2 all [1 2]]
10:02	ro_st	and then a day or two of referenching printed cheat sheets for stuff
10:02	XPherior	I can't for the life of me figure out how to write that
10:02	casion_	it's not that hard lol
10:02	casion_	michaelr`: how so do you find it time demanding?
10:02	ro_st	ckirkendall: awesome!!
10:03	casion_	ro_st: hey man… I still have an emacs cheatsheet on my desk
10:03	casion_	albeit one I made for myself for some obscure shit, but still
10:03	XPherior	So something like (let (implicits x 1 y 2) ...) Where it becomes (let [x 1 y 2 all [1 2]] ...)
10:03	ckirkendall	casion_: I think he mean it takes a week to realize how powerful it really is.
10:03	ro_st	ckirkendall: so to be clear, when calling the resulting fn, it'd return the undo all wired up, and calling the undo would return a closure that is the same as calling the initial fn with the initial args?
10:03	ckirkendall	yes
10:04	ckirkendall	no
10:04	casion_	ckirkendall: eh, I think that's nonsense too.
10:04	ro_st	casion_: by emacs-in-a-week i mean get to the point where i can focus on work
10:04	ro_st	pick a font and a colour scheme, be able to compile and run clojure in a repl
10:04	michaelr`	casion_: time demanding to learn how to work with it and time demanding because the defaults are really shitty and every simple feature i am used to from other editors i have to digg some piece of elisp code from some arcane site etc..
10:04	casion_	michaelr`: I see. That's how I felt when I tried st2 ;)
10:04	ckirkendall	it took me about a week to switch over after 15 years of java development in eclipse and intellij
10:05	michaelr`	casion_: hehe
10:05	casion_	searching through plugins, taying to figure out all the keys, new names for stuff, weird tabbed shit etc..
10:05	casion_	trying*
10:05	ro_st	michaelr`: you just need to push through. there is gold at the end of the rainbow
10:05	ckirkendall	ro_st: yes it returns an clojure of the orignial do
10:06	CmdrDats	i tried to switch back to ccw after a while of emacs.. I couldn't handle not being able to arbitrarily add new functionality to my editor
10:06	casion_	I have to use eclipse for one major project… I can't say it's something I look forward to
10:07	pandeiro	anyone know any good Clojure- or programming-related podcasts besides Relevance's recent one with Rich Hickey?
10:07	ro_st	ckirkendall: thank you so much. i'll try it out!
10:07	ro_st	CmdrDats: yes, exactly. adding Sass/Compass support was M-x package-install scss-mode
10:08	ro_st	pandeiro: unfortunately not. there are the disclojure vids on vimeo
10:08	casion_	michaelr`: do you know of any sublime learning resources? something like "Sublimetext for people with beards and a wretched pinky finger"
10:08	ro_st	in fact, just search infoq.com, blip.tv, and vimeo for clojure and sort by date
10:08	pandeiro	ro_st: can vimeo stuff be downloaded?
10:08	ro_st	most of it can
10:09	pandeiro	yeah i am wanting to listen to stuff in transit and my data connection is useless for audio/video
10:09	ro_st	ah right
10:09	cemerick	pandeiro: http://mostlylazy.com is one, which will be getting back on the horse shortly
10:09	ro_st	it'd be nice to grab all the vimeo stuff, esp the euroclojure stuff
10:09	michaelr`	casion_: hmm, just look at it's help to see the key shortcuts and there is a lot of stuff in the menus... what exactly are you looking for in an editor?
10:09	ro_st	some awesome stuff there
10:10	ro_st	cemerick: lookin' forward to that
10:10	CmdrDats	i was actually determined to contribute to ccw - but I got to cloning the repo and realized that I'm really not interested in dealing with eclipse plugins….
10:10	pandeiro	cemerick: cheers
10:10	Cheiron	Hi, I'm collecting analytics data. My main data structure is a map that will be consisting of many nested map. Only one thread is accessing the map. Does it makes sense to use a transient map then persist it when I'm done?
10:10	casion_	michaelr`: well… I'm not looking for anything. Many of my friends keep bugging me to try sublime, and I make an effort to try new things as such
10:11	casion_	michaelr`: if somehow it turns out to be decent, I'll use it. not much more to it than that
10:11	ro_st	casion_: ST2 is actually pretty self evident
10:11	ro_st	this'll get whoever started
10:11	ro_st	http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/tools-and-tips/sublime-text-2-tips-and-tricks/
10:12	ro_st	it covers the package installer plugin which is crucial
10:12	wmealing	&form ! nice
10:12	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: form in this context
10:12	casion_	ro_st: there's been a few times where I want a function, and I can't even figure out what it's called in st2
10:12	michaelr`	casion_: well, it's simple, has very good visual experience and very good defaults and sytax coloring themes
10:12	casion_	however I cant think of anything specific atm, it's been about 3-4 months since I tried st2 last
10:12	casion_	err
10:12	casion_	st1
10:12	ro_st	i use it for php maintenance and quick text munging
10:12	casion_	I just dl'd st2 2 weeks ago
10:13	ro_st	what's nice about st2 is it is FAST
10:13	ro_st	a great default editor for osx
10:13	michaelr`	and this ^^^^^^^^^^^
10:13	michaelr`	it's fast yes
10:13	ro_st	ok. break time. happy cloding all
10:13	michaelr`	i'm using it on windows
10:13	casion_	It'd be worth using if a single buffer (or tab.. whatever they call it) can't hang the whole god damned editor
10:16	casion_	oh there we go, subleimeblockcursor. that makes life way better in this thing
10:18	Cheiron	if a data structure is transient, does this mean each nested data structure inside it is transient also?
10:19	michaelr`	casion_: what does it do?
10:19	casion_	michaelr`: block cursor instead of the default pipe
10:19	casion_	so you can actually see the cursor
10:19	michaelr`	casion_: haha
10:24	michaelr`	casion_: i would really love to have decent clojure integration with st2, and an integrated debugger is a dream :)
10:24	casion_	michaelr`: the sublimerepl doesnt seem too bad
10:24	Cheiron	how to check of a data structure is transient or not?
10:24	casion_	it's not nearly as nice as slime so far, but it's usable
10:24	michaelr`	casion_: really?
10:24	casion_	maybe I'm missing something though, will see
10:24	michaelr`	casion_: i'll have to try it
10:28	dgrnbrg	is there a way to run leiningen on a project without being in that project's directory?
10:48	`fogus	Good morning my conservative brethren!
10:49	mdeboard	Keep it down, we're watching Wapner
10:49	dnolen	`fogus: haha
10:50	cemerick	Oh no, it's started. :-)
10:51	ohpauleez	haha, this is mint
10:51	cemerick	anyone got that clojurescript-haskell effort underway, so we can all finish the conversion?
10:51	`fogus	I wonder if Clojure programmers are more likely to eat at Chick-Fil-A?
10:52	`fogus	Too much? ;-p
10:52	cemerick	`fogus: just the right amount!
10:52	casion_	I refuse to eat there because of their stance on serving shitty tasting food :P
10:52	scriptor	most boring chicken sandwich I've ever had
10:52	cemerick	`fogus: congrats on the new book, BTW. I'm very much looking forward to it. :-D
10:53	casion_	new book?
10:54	`fogus	cemerick: It's not a book yet. Time will tell if it ever becomes one
10:55	cemerick	Well then, whatever it becomes.
10:55	cemerick	Perhaps I should say 'Good Luck' then.
10:56	scriptor	casion_: this might be it http://blog.fogus.me/2012/08/07/100-languages-in-100-weeks/
10:57	casion_	jeez, does everyone in here write books?
10:58	casion_	I came to this chat to learn, not to read
10:58	ohpauleez	certain people perpetuate the pop-culture-of-computer-science
10:58	ohpauleez	and it annoys me to no end that certain people have such a large and receptive audience
10:59	mdeboard	I know you're talking about me
10:59	casion_	in 1 month of learning clojure, I've bought 4 books on the subject… and ended up speaking with 4/7 authors
10:59	casion_	weird community you people have, all accessible and such
11:00	ohpauleez	mdeboard: haha
11:03	michaelr`	wrap-facebook-auth is a macro, if i do (count (wrap-facebook-auth {} (doall (albums)))) i get 12, but if i do (count (doall (wrap-facebook-auth {} (albums)))) i get 7?
11:03	cemerick	casion_: There's the secret Clojure Authors' Guild next door; most of us hang there so we don't have to be amongst the plebs. :-P
11:04	michaelr`	remove that question mark
11:04	michaelr`	anyway, the question is what is the difference here?
11:04	casion_	cemerick: oooOOOoooOOOooo, sounds secretive and powerful
11:05	cemerick	Yup, Clojure book authorship: that's where all the power is.
11:05	`fogus	ohpauleez: Sounds like a nice beer-induced discussion.
11:06	cemerick	ohpauleez: X is blue and Y is red is eternal linkbait.
11:07	scriptor	wait, rich hickey hasn't written a clojure book, has he?
11:07	jsabeaudry	Why does this throw an exception about no matching clause: http://pastebin.com/UYpMzh5g ?
11:08	ohpauleez	`fogus: I'll see you at the conj :) dnolen, you want in too? we'll start at the "small language" discussion and make our way to pop-culture-computer-science.
11:08	ohpauleez	cemerick: For sure
11:09	`fogus	jsabeaudry: What are you hoping to accomplish with that snippet?
11:09	ohpauleez	cemerick: I've been debating picking up your ML lib, but I'm lacking free cycles
11:09	cemerick	ML?
11:09	clojurebot	XML is case-sensitive
11:09	jsabeaudry	`fogus, I'm trying to do different things based on which function I receive as an argument
11:10	ohpauleez	cemerick: Machine learning - the name of the lib escapes me
11:10	cemerick	oh :-(
11:10	jsabeaudry	`fogus, So I tried case but it does not seem to like functions
11:10	cemerick	ohpauleez: look elsewhere, I'm afraid
11:10	ohpauleez	psssh no worries, but sound pieces of advice in the readme
11:11	cemerick	glad you found it without me linking :-)
11:12	acheng	it'd be nice if this irc client could color-code entries by #hashtag. it'd be easier to follow the different conversations
11:15	Cheiron	I have a ref type that wrap a map, this map is consisted of many many nested maps. how this effects the rules of immutability? (updating an immutable data structure causing a new one to be returned)
11:16	casion_	jsabeaudry: that's interesting
11:16	jsabeaudry	`fogus, Here is a btter example with functions test and test2 : http://pastebin.com/1kELTuGZ
11:16	XPherior	Can anyone help me figure out why I'm getting the exception at the bottom of my Gist? https://gist.github.com/1a69309438b44227e9ca
11:16	XPherior	I feel like it's something obvious
11:16	`fogus	jsabeaudry: case will not work for you there. If you really want to go that route then you'll need condp
11:16	jsabeaudry	`fogus, casion_ : test works and test2 throws a no matching clause exception
11:17	casion_	jsabeaudry: well, you can get rid of that by having a default
11:17	casion_	jsabeaudry: but it still doesnt compare the functions… and I do not know why
11:18	nDuff	XPherior: tried asking macroexpand what that expands into?
11:18	nDuff	XPherior: ...by the way, are you sure you really want flatten there (being, as it is, a recursive operation)?
11:20	jsabeaudry	`fogus, Oh yes if I replace "case fn" by "condp = fn" it does work. I really though that was the definition of case however...
11:20	`fogus	case does a lot of complicated things.
11:21	casion_	`fogus: why doesnt case work in this instance?
11:21	`fogus	jsabeaudry: All caveats about "are you sure you really want to do this yada yada" apply. ;-)
11:25	gtrak	macrowizards: this seems too complicated, is there a simpler way? https://gist.github.com/3314988
11:25	jsabeaudry	`fogus, casion_ : Ah I should have rtfm, the test constant of case must be a compile time litteral...
11:26	XPherior	nDuff: Yeah, I think that's messing me up
11:26	casion_	jsabeaudry: i see
11:32	llasram	gtrak: The '#' suffix only has special effect for symbols which appear plain w/in syntax-quote, so you can actually drop it for all of the symbols in that gist
11:32	gtrak	ah
11:34	gtrak	symbols which appear plain, ah, since I'm doing ~ it doesn't matter
11:35	chouser__	Oh, Yegge...
11:35	llasram	Right. "Appear plain" <-- probably a better phrasing, but thought better than "un-unquoted" :-)
11:35	hiredman	chouser__ lives
11:36	chouser__	with too many underscores, apparently
11:36	`fogus	chouser__: Sounds like an exasperated parent. ;-)
11:36	gtrak	is there any way to simplify the make-servlets thing? I'm just getting rid of it I think. The idea was to just specify a map of servlets to handlers but it doesn't seem worth it.
11:37	hiredman	I expect at some point someone is going to email the article to the ml (cause no one hasseen it right?) and it will spin off yet another thread of nonsense
11:37	cemerick	103 replies later?
11:38	chouser	I opened this window to see if anyone needed to be comforted, or anything needed to be defused.
11:38	chouser	Happy to see neither is the case.
11:38	cemerick	chouser: Nice to see your handle, in any case. :-)
11:38	hiredman	/topic Anarcho-Crypto ML Collective
11:38	cemerick	Although you missed the moment when I almost hurled the laptop across the room.
11:39	ohpauleez	cemerick: haha
11:39	chouser	oh, dear. Not regarding Yegge I hope?
11:39	hiredman	maybe he saw yegge across the room?
11:39	ohpauleez	now, everything is right in the world
11:39	cemerick	ha
11:39	chouser	Good to see you man. Congrats on the walking/thinking paths. Look nice.
11:39	cemerick	Group hug on `fogus. :-D
11:40	`fogus	chouser: I got lost on the paths yesterday :-o
11:40	chouser	`fogus: perfect!
11:40	cemerick	chouser: Less about Yegge than about the inevitable traction that those…notions…will likely get for years.
11:40	pjstadig	`fogus: seriously. you're office is like 2 miles from my house
11:40	pjstadig	which is also my office :)
11:41	`fogus	pjstadig: In Burke?
11:41	cemerick	I better have a drink in my hand the first time someone asks if I'm a Clojure Conservative.
11:41	chouser	cemerick: would make a great topic to casually dismiss in an audio conversation...
11:41	pjstadig	oh
11:41	pjstadig	hmm
11:41	pjstadig	nvm
11:41	pjstadig	i was thinking you were at the Fair Oaks office
11:41	pjstadig	i saw Fair Oaks and Orlando and stopped :)
11:42	cemerick	chouser: Dude, anytime. Here, even easier: Monday, 10:30am. There.
11:42	`fogus	pjstadig: Nah, I have my own little space here
11:42	chouser	cemerick: yes
11:42	llasram	gtrak: Maybe something like?: https://gist.github.com/3315099 (nb: untested, may have typos etc)
11:43	cemerick	chouser: I'm serious. If you're not on skype, I'll have a conversation with a sock puppet wearing a sign that says 'chouser, for realz'.
11:43	gtrak	llasram: ah fun, I've never used list* like that
11:43	cemerick	chouser: are you in EST?
11:43	chouser	cemerick: me too. The only delay on my end has been travel, which is now sorted for a while
11:44	chouser	cemerick: yes, EST
11:44	cemerick	OK. There's funky timezone business in Indiana, IIRC.
11:44	`fogus	cemerick: picking up the podcast again?
11:45	cemerick	Not really sure if I'm submitting a conj proposal yet.
11:45	cemerick	gah, wrong window :-(
11:45	ohpauleez	So I wasn't going to come out with this information, but cemerick and I are working on a new podcast: The Conjervative
11:45	casion_	now we all know!
11:45	chouser	ha!
11:46	ohpauleez	haha
11:46	hyPiRion	haha
11:46	joly	too funny
11:46	cemerick	`fogus: been meaning to for a couple of months now. Going to try to get serious real-soon-now. :-)
11:46	`fogus	cemerick: I look forward to it. I've loved every episode so far
11:47	`fogus	pjstadig: Bummer. I was hoping we could easily meet for lunch.
11:47	cemerick	`fogus: If you're interested, come on.
11:48	`fogus	cemerick: If I ever have anything interesting to say then sure.
11:48	pjstadig	`fogus: yeah, well we should work something out sometime, Burke is still not too distant
11:49	cemerick	`fogus: oy vey
11:51	gtrak	the left/right spectrum applies to everything... old news
11:51	mk	how can I get the docstring using a function? (I'm trying to return a list ns-map keys that begin with "Returns a lazy", (map doc (keys (ns-map ns))) doesn't work due to doc macro)
11:51	gfredericks	mk: use the vals of the ns-map
11:51	gfredericks	those will be vars, and you can get their metadata
11:52	gfredericks	so (map (comp :doc meta) (vals (ns-map ns))) probably
11:52	llasram	So... Steve Yegge accused the Clojure community of being radically conservative... or something?
11:52	cemerick	wow, time zones in Indiana have a deeper history than I thought: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Indiana
11:52	mk	gfredericks: great, thank you
11:53	hiredman	llasram: he accused the clojure community of being secret ml and haskell lovers
11:53	pjstadig	hiredman: he accused them of being ml and haskell lovers
11:53	pjstadig	no secret
11:53	llasram	hiredman: I was looking in all the wrong places -- just found G+ rant :-)
11:53	cemerick	Who's this Yegge fellow everyone's on about? :-P
11:54	pjstadig	or having been "prepopulated" from ML and Haskell
11:54	hiredman	clojure is a 5th column for java for ml/haskell dependng who ask, I guess
11:54	llasram	I used to really like his writing, and actually picked up Clojure in the first place because of his foreword to /JoC/
11:55	hiredman	who you ask
11:55	pjstadig	cemerick: it seems that time zones have a deep history...most anywhere
11:55	acheng	there's a large country out there that has one time zone (or used to)
11:57	casion_	I've never touched haskell or ML, so obviously he's wrong
11:57	gtrak	I'd love to learn those things
11:57	`fogus	I think Sam Aaron's tweet is the perfect rebuttal. :-)
11:57	casion_	wait, I did touch haskell… but it was ugly and the community was odd
11:58	cemerick	There is no rebuttal. Trying to come up with one is like attempting to be clever in response to being mooned.
11:59	hiredman	I have rebuttal:
11:59	hiredman	that's dumb
11:59	ohpauleez	so, how many other people just tried to come up with a clever response to being mooned and failed to?
12:00	pjstadig	hiredman: you say that about everything
12:00	ohpauleez	surely, I'm not alone
12:00	hiredman	it is a zinger, I admit, I've been working on it all morning
12:00	ohpauleez	pjstadig: hiredman that is true
12:00	cemerick	pjstadig: beat me to it ;-)
12:00	acheng	maybe he thrives on being discussed. he's growing stronger now.
12:00	cemerick	no doubt
12:00	mdeboard	https://twitter.com/d6/status/233954764008873984
12:00	mdeboard	relevant
12:00	pjstadig	agreed, let's stop discussing
12:01	ohpauleez	inc
12:01	cemerick	the twitters will be roiling for hours now; probably more gas there than in #clojure anyway
12:02	casion_	on a lighter note… it's sunny
12:03	casion_	and I have to take a 2 hour buss journey to see my wife perform on a trapeze
12:03	casion_	how can I solve this with clojure?
12:03	ohpauleez	probably atoms
12:04	hiredman	~women
12:04	clojurebot	women are just jealous, since lisp has nice curves. -- Chousuke
12:05	Chousuke	I wish I could remember the context where I said that
12:05	hiredman	for a quote like that, who needs context
12:05	nDuff	casion_: Bus ride sounds like good hammock time.
12:05	nDuff	casion_: ...so you can at least be operating in accordance with Clojure _principals_. :)
12:06	casion_	nDuff: in this area, 'bus ride' is a euphemism for 'walking between bus stops in the searing heat'
12:06	casion_	hammock time involves a brain that's not occupied with not dying of heat stroke lol
12:06	nDuff	casion_: Ahh. Yeah, that's not so much fun.
12:07	hiredman	Chousuke: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2009-03-23.html#17:29
12:09	casion_	nDuff: I live in florida, and i have bradbury-eggleston syndrome...
12:09	casion_	stupid wives.
12:09	nDuff	casion_: nod. In her case, it's a complication from spina bifida -- no sweat response at all.
12:10	nDuff	...suffice to say that we're looking forward to moving up north when the opportunity arises.
12:10	casion_	I've been trying to figure out how to move north
12:11	casion_	we just extended our house since we couldnt figure out the logistics of moving.. so that probably wont happen for a while
12:13	hiredman	cemerick: this load-file-command thing is horrible, are you suggesting nrepl.el should slurp in clojure code and send it across the wire as a string for evaling when loading a file?
12:14	chouser	Bleh. I started writing a response that was only going to compare Clojure as it acutally is to Yegge's own defenition of software conservatism.
12:14	chouser	But even that is tiring
12:14	hiredman	my scratch.clj is 2438 lines
12:15	chouser	"actually", "definition" ...still tiring
12:17	mk	is there a fn for mapping just keys?
12:18	mk	I mean value. Takes map, returns map with fn applied to each value
12:19	nDuff	mk: I think the common approach is to use zipmap but just pass the key through
12:19	nDuff	err
12:19	nDuff	...not zipmap, but forgetting what it _is_
12:22	chouser	nDuff: no, you're right
12:23	mk	so just giving it the (keys) and mapped (vals)? Isn't that slightly inefficient?
12:24	chouser	,(let [m {:a 1 :b 2}] (zipmap (keys m) (map inc (vals m))))
12:24	clojurebot	{:b 3, :a 2}
12:25	mk	presumably it has to do unneeded lookups
12:25	chouser	or (let [m {:a 1 :b 2}] (into m (for [[k v] m] [k (inc v)])))
12:26	mk	ah, thanks
12:26	chouser	mk: the fns keys and vals don't do lookups, they just walk the tree
12:27	mk	seems like you'd need two walks. Though that might be no more inefficient than creating the extra vecs
12:38	chouser	mk: each is a walk, but zipmap consumes them simlutaneously
12:50	DaoWen	nDuff: I moved to Texas from up north last year. I was so sick of the freezing winters with snows all the time... The summer heat sucks, but I still think the freezing winter was way more miserable.
12:51	DaoWen	(just don't move too far north)
12:52	nDuff	DaoWen: I've lived in cold before and enjoyed it -- the significant other even moreso (she's from Chicago).
12:52	cgag	i find it hard to believe people who claim they like cold
12:52	cgag	madness
12:52	mebaran151	I'm a big cold liker, though I grew up in LA
12:53	DaoWen	nDuff: I don't so much hate the cold as the snow and ice
12:53	DaoWen	if it were freezing outside but the ground was always dry then I might like it
12:54	rlb	DaoWen: there's always McMurdo Station
12:55	mattmoss	Cold and snow are liked by me provided I don't have to shovel.
12:55	rlb	hmm, though perhaps it's melty there at the station...
12:56	mk	are hierarchies only used to determine multimethod dispatches?
12:58	lynaghk	ping: emezeske
12:59	S11001001	mk: internally, yes, but the api is public
13:00	mk	does they tend to get used for anything?
13:00	S11001001	mk: I never have, but can't say about others
13:01	mk	lynaghk: looks like you summoned him from clear outside of irc
13:02	gtrak	when there is ice, code from home...
13:03	mk	S11001001: right. I was just wondering if it was something that found uses beyond multimethods. Presumably not so much
13:04	S11001001	mk: I have a special dislike for type hierarchies; maybe some of that translates over
13:05	mk	what's wrong with type hierarchies?
13:09	S11001001	the cost/benefit is all out of whack
13:10	mk	what's the cost?
13:11	S11001001	dealing with co/contravariance and the substitution rules that come with it
13:12	acheng	woah, partial can handle keyword args. nice!
13:13	DaoWen	S11001001: don't variance rules only apply when you have parameterized types?
13:14	S11001001	you always have parameterized types, because you always have functions
13:14	technomancy	chouser: so... I'm procrastinating on clj-stacktrace bugs... just so you know =)
13:15	DaoWen	S11001001: ah, good point.
13:16	skoodge	I am trying to write a macro similar to "extend", which takes maps with protocol specs as arguments and then builds the correct deftype definition. The problem is that I want these maps to be evaluated on macro invokation, so that I can pass vars containing the maps. How do I do that? using (eval) seems not very clean
13:19	nDuff	skoodge: yes, but using macros rather than HOFs isn't very clean either. :)
13:20	skoodge	nDuff: I would like to use a HOF if possibe, but how can I do the equivalent of an "unquote-splice" in a HOF?
13:20	mk	why do functions imply parameterized types?
13:21	nDuff	skoodge: ...well, I'm not saying you _can_; sometimes a macro is the right tool for the job.
13:21	nDuff	(and, err, it depends on where/why/how you're using unquote-splice)
13:21	nDuff	(sometimes uses of unquote-splice can be replaced by passing a function around, sometimes it can be replaced with apply, sometimes it can't be replaced)
13:22	S11001001	mk: a function that takes an object is also a function that takes a string (functions are contravariant in their parameter positions), and a function that returns a string is a function that returns an object (covariant)
13:23	skoodge	nDuff: I need an unquote-splice à la the following: `(deftype ~name [param#] ~@specs) I have no idea how to do that in a HOF. I can't do something like (apply deftype specs) because deftype is a macro
13:23	stuarthalloway	given a non-infinite supply of afternoon, what Clojure tickets should I be screening
13:23	nDuff	skoodge: yup; if you really need deftype, you really need a macro
13:24	nDuff	skoodge: I wasn't saying you _could_ do what you wanted with a HOF, just that if you're getting your hands dirty with macros, you may need to resign yourself to getting your hands dirty with eval
13:24	technomancy	thinking of putting out leiningen 2 preview8 early next week, any open issues that should be addressed before it goes out?
13:25	mk	S11001001: I don't usually think of strings as a subtype of object. They're more like haskell typeclasses. I'm probably confused somewhere, though
13:25	S11001001	mk: just an example
13:25	skoodge	nDuff: yes, that's what I feared. Thanks anyway, I thought maybe there was some clever HOF trickery that could have helped here.
13:26	mk	S11001001: what's an example of problems with the substitution rules?
13:27	skoodge	nDuff: btw, is the situation of requiring a macro that evaluates its arguments all that unusual? I try to avoid eval if possible, but it seems like a good idea to write macros that evaluate their arguments, since this gives you macros that are still composable
13:27	S11001001	mk: give me the type relationship between immutable rectangle and square (the problem is harder for mutable so I'm starting light)
13:29	mk	ok, so the usual "a square is a rectangle"
13:33	antifuchs	a square is somebody trying to teach OOP using geometric shapes? (:
13:33	mk	geometric shapes are nice. Animals, on the other hand, are a huge mistake
13:35	septomin	once in high school i wrote a C++ chess program where Queen inherited from Rook and Bishop
13:35	septomin	why not to give the stroustrup book to teenagers
13:35	xclite	well duh
13:36	xclite	queen should inherit from king, obviously
13:36	acheng	when we did message passing in SICP i had a walking pot of coffee and if you found it you could get two game moves per tick instead of one
13:36	nvy	hello
13:36	mk	septomin: sounds right to me. The queen is part of both typeclasses
13:36	mk	nvy: hey, welcome
13:37	emezeske	mk: I actually think that geometric shapes are a bad example for OOP, especially the "square is a rectangle" thing
13:37	technomancy	septomin: classic
13:37	nvy	I'm very new to Clojure, and always having troublr receiving some kind of dependency exceptions - or something simply doesn't work
13:38	nvy	I was following this: https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/wiki/Getting-Started
13:38	mk	emezeske: why's that?
13:38	nvy	and last command gives, "That's not a task. Use "lein help" to list all tasks."
13:38	emezeske	mk: Well, a square is not a rectangle. A rectangle has a width and a height, and a square only has a single size
13:39	emezeske	mk: The only things that can really go in a geometric shape interface are extremely broad, like "getArea()" and they can't share any code
13:39	scriptor	well, a square could be defined as a rectangle with the same values for width and height
13:39	nvy	I don't know whether it's fine to ask questions about libraries that aren't included in Clojure by default :)
13:39	emezeske	scriptor: That is a stupid example though
13:40	emezeske	scriptor: Like, if I saw a class Square derived from Rectangle that just added a bunch of checks to make sure width==height, I would be pissed off
13:40	mk	emezeske: squares have both a height and width. They're a constrained rectangle. They may very well me implemented using two fields, width and height
13:40	technomancy	nvy: it's fine. what version of Leiningen are you using? (`lein version`)
13:40	nvy	technomancy: Leiningen 1.7.1 on Java 1.6.0_24 OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM
13:41	mk	emezeske: it wouldn't be efficient, but that's essentially what a square is
13:41	emezeske	mk: Why aren't squares rectangular hyperprisms, then? With a zero depth and hyperdepth? May as well
13:41	technomancy	nvy: ok, you'll probably have an easier time using 2.0.0-preview7; can you try upgrading?
13:41	nvy	sure
13:41	septomin	is there a word for unnecessarily trying to replicate the ontological structure of the world?
13:41	emezeske	mk: The point is, if you want to represent a square as a rectangle, just use a Rectangle, don't subclass it
13:41	emezeske	septomin: OOP
13:43	mk	emezeske: I suspect that such a thing is a degenerate hyperprism, and not a square...
13:44	emezeske	mk: It's exactly the same as a Square class that enforces width==height, it just has more than 1 useless field
13:45	DaoWen	mk: getting back to covariance and contravariance
13:45	DaoWen	if you have a method that takes a square in your base class
13:45	emezeske	mk: Anyway, just my opinion, I'll stop off-topicing #clojure now
13:45	DaoWen	you should be able to override it with a method that takes a rectangle in a subclass
13:45	nvy	a side question: I am on Linux, and executing anything-Java (like lein or Clojure) means having to wait at least 5 seconds for it to load. Is there a catch? A fix?
13:46	mk	I'm not sure if that field is zero though. It's probably on topic.
13:46	DaoWen	that's contravariance
13:46	DaoWen	it's a type-widening relationship
13:47	DaoWen	by widening the types of the arguments in a method in a sub-class you can still cover all of the inputs accepted by the original method, so it's legal
13:47	DaoWen	the return-type is the opposite
13:47	rlb	nvy: I'd be surprised if it takes that long after the first time.
13:47	nDuff	nvy: 5 seconds, really? What kind of hardware?
13:47	hyPiRion	nvy: That's not Java, it's Clojure. It's slow at starting up, and we know it.
13:47	pyykkis	nvy: are you using oracle java or something else?
13:47	DaoWen	it's covariant because you can only narrow the type that's returned
13:48	rlb	nvy: here "time clojure < /dev/null" takes about 1.2s fwiw
13:48	mk	DaoWen: ok, what's the problem with that opposition?
13:48	rlb	That's with debian wheezy openjdk 7
13:48	rlb	and the debian clojure1.4 package
13:48	DaoWen	mk: yeah, I don't understand why he says that makes type hierarchies bad
13:49	lynaghk	emezeske: do you have any suggestions on how to compile-in different configs with lein cljsbuild? E.g., using a different main.cljs file to kickoff the app. (Anything better than symlinking the shared codes into different paths and using the :src-path option?)
13:49	rlb	(the openjdk-7-jdk package)
13:49	nvy	I'm on a Laptop with a C2D. Running Noobuntu 12, with an SSD and luks. I checked the clojure time, and it's: user 4s, real 3s
13:49	mk	DaoWen: I'm a bit confused as to why the functions are part of the hierarchy though. Types and functions are different, and all that
13:49	_ato	nvy: in my experience running off an SSD helps startup time but doesn't "fix" it. There's no easy answer to it unfortunately or someone would have solved it by now.
13:49	emezeske	lynaghk: You shouldn't have to symlink anything -- all of the cljs source paths are on the classpath
13:50	emezeske	lynaghk: But I do think the easiest thing right now would be a separate directory for each main.cljs file
13:50	nvy	all right, then
13:50	DaoWen	mk: the functions aren't really part of the hierarchy so much as they interact with the hierarchy
13:50	lynaghk	emezeske: yeah, but src-path takes only one string, right?
13:50	emezeske	lynaghk: I tend to just have several exported "main" functions in one main.cljs file, and just call the one I want
13:50	emezeske	lynaghk: Yes
13:50	nvy	technomancy: using lein 2 works, and the tutorial went through. Cheers
13:51	emezeske	lynaghk: If you have a build like ":base-libs" that points to the common files, that will put them in the classpath where other builds can see them
13:51	nvy	out of curiousity, are a significant number of Clojure programmers using emacs?
13:51	rlb	nvy: a direct "time java -server -jar /usr/share/java/clojure-1.4.jar < /dev/null" is a touch faster, but not enough to matter.
13:51	nDuff	nvy: Yes, very.
13:52	lynaghk	emezeske: "base-libs" is a lein cljsbuild option?
13:52	hiredman	nvy: http://cemerick.com/2012/08/06/results-of-the-2012-state-of-clojure-survey/
13:52	nvy	is there a good /recent/ tutorial to set it up with the repl and all that?
13:52	emezeske	lynaghk: Nah, just a name I made up for a :build identifier
13:52	nDuff	nvy: slime/swank+paredit makes emacs probably the best available environment for writing Clojure
13:52	emezeske	lynaghk: :builds*
13:52	rlb	nvy: and fwiw, I'm on luks, etc. too, (though not an ssd), but my cpu's probably faster.
13:52	mk	DaoWen: right. They way I see it, there are just polymorphic functions on different types. The relations between these types are classtypes, in the haskell sense.
13:52	lynaghk	emezeske: ah. I'm thinking with advanced optimizations everything should be in one build
13:53	DaoWen	mk: I agree that keeping track of variance relationships is a pain, but that wouldn't even apply in clojure so the point is kind of moot.
13:53	nvy	yeah rlb, my CPU is quite slow. I've got a four-year-old thinkpad
13:53	emezeske	lynaghk: It will all get put into one JS file for each dir
13:53	lynaghk	emezeske: rather than try to put the libs into one js file and then the main fn in another.
13:53	rlb	right, mine's a mobile i5.
13:53	mk	DaoWen: unsure of what a variance relationship is
13:53	emezeske	lynaghk: That's not how it will work out
13:53	emezeske	lynaghk: Each JS output file will contain all the code it needs
13:53	mk	or why it wouldn't apply
13:53	rlb	(and even then, for some things 1.2s is too slow -- so I just don't use clojure for those things right now)
13:53	DaoWen	mk: I just meant covariance and contravariance
13:54	nDuff	nvy: ...there are some good videos showing off Emacs Live + Overtone if you're curious about the environment's draw.
13:54	emezeske	lynaghk: If one of your main.cljs files requires a bunch of namespaces from :base-lib, then the output JS for that main.cljs will include everything it needs
13:55	emezeske	lynaghk: The :base-libs dir will have its own JS output, if you build it, but you will never use it
13:55	lynaghk	emezeske: And that will work even if "build A" only has "main-A.cljs" on its classpath, and none of the shared libs?
13:55	DaoWen	mk: in clojure you'd typically make your own hierarchies and check them with isa? or something like that, and I don't think the "is a" relationship is something that confuses many people
13:55	DaoWen	until you get into parameterized types
13:55	mk	DaoWen: yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure that types even directly inherit from each other. The relationship is a typeclass. If there are squares and rectangles, sure, they're both part of the rectangular typeclass.
13:55	rlb	nvy: I haven't tried nailgun, but that might help, depending on what you're doing -- and of course if you use emacs, depending on how you use it, you might not start up very often.
13:55	rlb	(assuming clojure works with nailgun...)
13:56	chouser	technomancy: ha! ok. Something will have to give...
13:56	emezeske	lynaghk: That will work if "build A" only has "main-A.cljs" in its *:source-path. When it's built, its classpath will contain "build A", "build B" and "build Libs"
13:57	lynaghk	emezeske: ahhhh, got it. So put everything on the leiningen classpath, then make individual builds that only have their specific files on the :src path?
13:57	rlb	(oh right, nailgun has no security... -- I haven't actually tried it)
13:57	emezeske	lynaghk: yeah, exactly
13:57	lynaghk	emezeske: ah, sweet. Thanks Evan!
13:57	mk	DaoWen: is a point a circle, or is a circle a point?
13:57	emezeske	lynaghk: no problem, let me know if you have trouble with that
13:58	DaoWen	mk: I'm guessing that's supposed to be a rhetorical question—but I don't see either relationship working.
13:58	nvy	this is crazy, what I've been missing out on for years
13:59	chouser	skoodge: did anybody mention using extend, which is a function, rather than trying to build on top of macros?
13:59	mk	DaoWen: you can cast points into 0-radius circles
14:00	chouser	skoodge: the desire to eval in a macro is often (not always) because an underlying thing is a macro when it should be a function
14:00	skoodge	chouser: I would use that if I could, but unfortunately I have to use deftype on interfaces (I want to extend some built-ins like conj, peek and pop)
14:00	technomancy	nvy: you can get simple clojure code to run in under a second with some tricks on a fast SSD, but it's definitely a weak point. the solution is to keep long-running processes going.
14:00	technomancy	but it means there are certain kinds of programs it's simply not suitable for.
14:01	amalloy	chouser: when i use extend i often end up wanting to make it a macro anyway, so that the functions automatically get the right type-hints
14:01	technomancy	I think 0.7s is my record.
14:01	mk	DaoWen: that suggests that maybe points are circles. But you can also imagine extending a point class, and adding a radius. They both have getPosition, but circles in addition have getRadius. So maybe circles are points.
14:01	nDuff	nvy: ...this is one of the draws of ClojureScript and other alternative implementations -- much faster startup time.
14:01	nvy	technomancy: I guess one could use a ramdisk to run it
14:02	nvy	nDuff: yesplease, is there a website for that?
14:02	nvy	I've been a huge lua fan
14:02	emezeske	Circles are not points are not circles
14:02	emezeske	A circle is a composition of a point and a radius
14:02	amalloy	very cool, gfredericks
14:03	nDuff	nvy: It's an ongoing summer-of-code project, not something polished for production -- you'll see a lot more production readiness from the javascript one right now.
14:03	DaoWen	mk: I agree with emzezeske. the zero-radius circle as a point is kind of an interesting idea—but it's still a point with a radius of zero.
14:03	nDuff	nvy: that said, https://github.com/raph-amiard/clojurescript-lua
14:03	rlb	what's likely the fastest (wrt startup), reasonably solid clojure dialect now?
14:03	rlb	(solid-ish at least)
14:03	DaoWen	mk: it's 2am my time though, so I'm going to have to call it a night with the shapes discussion :-p
14:03	amalloy	probably cljs?
14:04	amalloy	you pay the startup cost at compile time instead of startup time, mostly
14:04	mk	emezeske: co/contravariance and isa have roughly to do with casting. It seems natural to cast a 0-radius circle into a point, and a point into a 0-radius circle...
14:04	rlb	what about the clojure -> gambit route -- does that work?
14:04	mk	DaoWen: have a good night
14:04	rlb	(well yet)
14:04	hiredman	you also lose concurrency, vars, etc
14:04	technomancy	rlb: suspect calling that "solid" would be a huge stretch
14:04	technomancy	it's very new and untested
14:05	rlb	technomancy: right, thanks.
14:05	rlb	And I suppose I should have clarified -- I'm curious about both, but I was only asking about fast run-time startup.
14:05	emezeske	mk: Ugg... If you ever make a geometry library, I will stay far, far away from it
14:05	rlb	(as opposed to fast interpreted behavior -- I don't mind a long comple step in this case)
14:05	technomancy	if you want fast startup time and FP you're stuck with either cljs-on-node or haskell/ocaml
14:06	S11001001	mk: what is the type of the operation on Point to set the radius of the circle?
14:06	technomancy	so the vim nrepl stuff is done in haskell
14:07	technomancy	and jark is ocaml
14:07	S11001001	mk: by set I mean return-copy-with-altered, as yet again the mutable problem is harder
14:07	nDuff	shrug -- I've used cljs successfully in production-y code (client side of an in-house JIRA plugin); it's worked well for what I needed, and patches get merged much more quickly than Clojure proper takes them.
14:07	rlb	technomancy: if you happen to know -- has much been done lately wrt clojure-in-clojure?
14:07	technomancy	rlb: nothing I'm aware of
14:08	mk	S11001001: which circle? to create a point? (circle point radius), or some such
14:08	rlb	technomancy: that seems promising wrt ports...
14:08	mk	to create a circle, I mean
14:09	hiredman	the clojurescript lobby will tell you that clojurescript is cinc, but clojurescript discards a lot of clojure
14:09	rlb	to the extent that it might reduce the non-clj core
14:09	dnolen	rlb: CLJS is effectively a CLJ-in-CLJ, as evidenced by the growing number of implementations based on it. regardless of various opinions from people like technomancy and hiredman.
14:09	hiredman	clojurescript (on javascript) is whole program compilation, which clojure on the jvm is not
14:09	hiredman	which is a very different experience
14:09	S11001001	mk: better yet, given your suggestion that a circle is a point, what is the type of the operation on a circle that alters that radius?
14:10	dnolen	rlb: there's a lot of work going into making it easier and less specific to JS, with the caveat that changes don't disrupt CLJS usage.
14:10	hiredman	yes, there are changes to clojurescript happening to make it easier to port clojurescript, but clojurescript is not clojure
14:10	dnolen	rlb: someone doing a proper CLJ-in-CLJ is probably inevitable and I won't be surprised if it has CLJS in it's genes.
14:10	mk	S11001001: for the record I didn't say that one was either. I gave two arguments, one for why a circle is a point and another for why a point is a circle.
14:10	rlb	dnolen: so (I know nothing) did cljs port the core data structures to clojure code?
14:11	dnolen	rlb: yes.
14:11	mk	S11001001: (circle circle radius), perhaps
14:11	rlb	ahh, ok -- well that is a significant step.
14:11	S11001001	mk: yes, but this is type hierarchy design; you only get to pick one
14:11	S11001001	mk: and what if you pass a radius of 0?
14:11	mk	let's go with it returning a circle
14:11	technomancy	I guess making getting the analyzer portable is a necessary prerequisite to cinc
14:12	technomancy	but that's a 3rd-party lib IIRC
14:12	Gnosis-	has anyone been able to run Java bytecode on GPUs?
14:12	dnolen	rlb: main missing bits which CLJS will probably never handle itself is inline macros, reified namespaces / vars.
14:12	Gnosis-	(or, more specifically, Clojure on GPUs)
14:13	emezeske	dnolen: CLJS won't ever do "eval", will it?
14:13	Gnosis-	it seems like GPUs would be ideal because of their multiple cores
14:13	S11001001	mk: now you have two representations of a point: a point that is not a circle, and a point that is a circle with radius 0. You've gained no expressive power by having a point type.
14:13	dnolen	rlb: things like real keywords/symbols, fast full reader probably likely eventually in CLJS
14:13	dnolen	emezeske: a fully bootsrapped CLJS could do that. but non-goal since that's a lot more code to send over the wire.
14:14	S11001001	mk: a similar game can be played if you reverse the type relationship: the type of the set-radius result is dependent on what value you give for radius if you want to be consistent
14:14	scriptor	clojurescript doesn't have keywords yet?
14:14	dnolen	emezeske: and code that you could not dead code eliminate if eval occurs.
14:14	mk	S11001001: there's only one point. It's fine if there are two representations, but we're not quite talking about representations, yet anyway
14:14	emezeske	dnolen: I agree for web stuff it's not all that desirable, just curious
14:14	scriptor	ah, stored as js strings
14:14	dnolen	scriptor: keywords and symbols in CLJS are strings for perf reasons at the moment.
14:14	emezeske	dnolen: Could be useful for the "cljs is clj with a faster startup time" crowd though
14:15	S11001001	mk: we are talking about representations, because types are sets of values, and we're trying to deal with totality at the same time, which we must, because that's what variance is talking about
14:15	dnolen	emezeske: I imagine we'll get there one day. but I honestly I find CLJS/Lua more compelling since it has potentially easy C interop.
14:15	dnolen	emezeske: compelling for that I mean.
14:15	emezeske	dnolen: That's a good point, C interop would be sweeeeeet
14:16	scriptor	dnolen: any research being done on how they could be implemented as something closer to clojure symbols/keywords?
14:16	dnolen	scriptor: I've put some thought into as well as Brandon Bloom.
14:17	mk	S11001001: are we talking about typeclasses, or some sort of strange subtypes? I'm actually not sure about how I'd want to model constrained sets (like equal-sided rectangles, strings with no spaces, etc.)
14:18	scriptor	dnolen: any writeups I could read?
14:18	cgray	dnolen: sorry to beat my own hobbyhorse (and i joined the conversation in the middle), but what is the philosophical objection to inline macros in cljs?
14:19	mk	S11001001: the relationship I'm talking about is: you have one type, rectangle, and another type, square. Each has distinct values, and a 1 1 rectangle is distinct from the 1 1 square. But you can safely cast any square value into a rectangle value.
14:19	dnolen	scriptor: not really. I should do that. Or you could read the source and see how symbols/keywords are currently handled.
14:20	scriptor	looking through the regular clojure impl now
14:21	mk	S11001001: this means that you can mess around with squares, and then just suddenly pretend that you were dealing with a rectangle from the very start (that's casting)
14:22	Gnosis-	mk, S11001001: maybe I'm way off, but what if you had one type for "set of points"? and functions such as circle?, rect?, etc. that tested whether a set of points was a circle or rectangle, etc.?
14:23	Gnosis-	I definitely don't know any details of what you're trying to do, though :)
14:23	mk	Gnosis-: we're trying to understand types, with respect to clojure's hierarchies. Circles would be represented with only one point, and a radius
14:24	S11001001	Gnosis-: we're discussing the value of type hierarchies; I'm proposing that they're far more trouble than they're worth, and I assume mk agrees, as the last proposed API isn't a hierarchy anymore :)
14:24	Gnosis-	mk: ahhh... if you're trying to understand type hierarchies, then disregard what I said :)
14:24	mk	S11001001: is what I described not a hierarchy?
14:25	dnolen	cgray: no philosophical objection - just yet to see a compelling design document.
14:25	mk	S11001001: I think it's a classtype hierarchy. If there's such a thing as a "type" hierarchy, that might be something different entirely.
14:26	S11001001	mk: it isn't; presence of an isomorphism isn't sufficient to infer presence of a hierarchy
14:26	cgray	dnolen: ok, makes sense.
14:26	mk	S11001001: why not? what is a hierarchy above that?
14:26	S11001001	mk: type hierarchies feature variance, but total (explicit) coercion to Rectangle is just an isomorphism
14:27	S11001001	iow toString is an isomorphism but I wouldn't describe it as meaning that all toStringable things are strings
14:27	S11001001	sorry, toString is a homomorphism
14:27	S11001001	mk: haskell-wise I'm speaking of the Show typeclass of course
14:28	mk	you don't need to explicitly coerce the values. You can choose to use the original square as a representation of a rectangle. Its type changes, its data does not.
14:29	mk	(its value also changes, but again, the representation is still the good ol' java Square "class")
14:30	technomancy	btw; lein search is now much faster thanks to using incremental index updates
14:30	technomancy	no more 20-minute wait for those of you on the other side of the pacific
14:33	mk	S11001001: if we're in java, which we can agree is a terrible model of these things, and we've recently thrown those squares into a rectangle list, we can turn these rectangle values back into square values by using instanceof Square, and then doing an explicit cast
14:38	ibdknox	I'm trying to decide if I should respond to Yegge's nonsense
14:39	Iceland_jack	ibdknox: don't :P
14:39	technomancy	my g+ account was mysteriously deleted, so I'm actually straight up not able to read it.
14:39	technomancy	it's proven to be a blessing in disguise.
14:39	ibdknox	lol
14:39	hiredman	I for one already have my copy of "ml for the working programmer" on order
14:39	ibdknox	hiredman: haha
14:40	ibdknox	technomancy: what were your previous languages?
14:40	davidd___	I'm an anarchist programmer
14:40	technomancy	ibdknox: elisp and ruby mostly
14:40	Iceland_jack	technomancy: You're not missing much, it was interesting if you remove your Serious Glasses® before reading it
14:40	emezeske	ibdknox: Did Yegge comment on Light Table or something?
14:40	davidd___	no, on programmer 'politics'
14:40	technomancy	ibdknox: I did really enjoy about a week's worth of ocaml last summer
14:40	technomancy	which has undoubtedly tainted me
14:41	ibdknox	emezeske: no, he used Clojure as a "case study"
14:41	emezeske	ibdknox: Uh oh
14:41	cemerick	very light touch on the 'study' part of that phrase
14:41	ohpauleez	ibdknox: Abraham lincoln was taller than five feet, I have five toes, how many keystrokes should an ideal function take?
14:41	ibdknox	lol
14:41	technomancy	cemerick: "It was Yegge in the study with the candlestick!"
14:41	ibdknox	ohpauleez: 27, everyone knows that ;)
14:41	ohpauleez	We need to turn his name into verb
14:41	mattmoss	lol
14:41	cemerick	technomancy: shoulda s/candlestick/dart
14:42	technomancy	cemerick: uh oh, really?
14:42	ohpauleez	"You function is complected, you've totally yegged the meaning here"
14:42	dnolen	cemerick: "light" aka "never bother to look at Clojure survey which basically shows Haskell/ML programmers don't generally give two craps about Clojure"
14:42	stuarthalloway	suggestions welcome for how/whether to fix http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1039
14:42	antifuchs	hahahaha, it's great to see how yegge manages to troll alll the language communities (:
14:43	stuarthalloway	also looking for suggestions as to which patches to screen today
14:43	technomancy	if you come from elisp and JS, I guess clojure seems pretty rigid.
14:43	technomancy	given that elisp is the perl of lisps.
14:44	antifuchs	technomancy: more like the awk (:
14:44	antifuchs	as in ward
14:45	ibdknox	meh, I'll leave it be
14:45	ibdknox	in happy news, there will be a big Light Table update next week :D
14:45	ohpauleez	yessssssssss
14:46	technomancy	I guess I can stop feeling sorry for yegge over how he got roasted on the seajure mailing list
14:46	scriptor	technomancy: what happened?
14:46	amalloy	stuarthalloway: i don't mind selfishly suggesting http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1032, which is a bug for which i managed to drum up five "voters"
14:46	ibdknox	Real Work® can soon be done in the playground
14:46	stuarthalloway	amalloy: will do
14:47	technomancy	scriptor: he made some points that I agreed with about certain attitudes in the Clojure community but then followed it up with some really horrible examples when pressed for details.
14:47	technomancy	and got taken to town over it
14:49	dnolen	ibdknox: excellent!
14:49	ibdknox	dnolen: this is definitely an experiment. I'm interested to see how it works out :)
14:50	scriptor	ibdknox: ah, so new/interesting feature?
14:50	amalloy	thanks stuarthalloway!
14:50	ibdknox	I haven't figured out what to call it, but introduces the notion of a document that is made up of parts from many files
14:51	ibdknox	but works as if it were a single file - meaning you can move between the various editors like you normally would
14:51	scriptor	neat! also pretty awesome that this is coming so soon
14:53	ibdknox	I think after this update, the playground is going to turn into a very nice starting point for CLJS (something we really, really need)
14:53	gfredericks	~ping
14:53	clojurebot	PONG!
14:53	ibdknox	I watched a very smart guy struggle endlessly trying to get the CLJS repl working
14:53	hiredman	see, there is the mistake
14:54	cemerick	stuarthalloway: have def strip :type metadata and issue a warning? Seems decidedly Wrong.
14:54	cemerick	if only `type` used e.g. :clojure.core/type or something.
14:54	hiredman	the compilation model for cljs makes the repl very "meh" so it is not good place to start
14:54	stuarthalloway	cemerick: I am just afraid of breaking anything
14:55	ibdknox	hiredman: well to be fair, he was upset about compile times and was trying to get the repl up to make development faster
14:55	cemerick	stuarthalloway: anyone putting :type meta on vars would have hit this and bounced off due to the error, no?
14:55	hiredman	cemerick: well really the :default case for print-method needs to be smarter
14:55	dnolen	ibdknox: that would be sweet - CLJS is productive but only if you've gone through the gauntlet a few times.
14:55	acheng	ibdknox: a document woven from many files sounds like literate progamming but in the other direction. have you written a blurb about this somewhere?
14:55	S11001001	mk: this should probably go in #haskell instead :)
14:55	ibdknox	acheng: not yet, but soon
14:55	hiredman	cemerick: I think you'd only really see it doing a def at the repl
14:55	acheng	ok cool
14:56	cemerick	ibdknox: this may be OT for you, but the cljs REPL will work over nREPL (and therefore lein, ccw, reply, and nrepl.el) shortly: https://gist.github.com/3308381
14:56	ibdknox	acheng: in practice it's been really neat - still a lot of work to do around making it really efficient finding the things you want to add to the document, but that's just a matter of time
14:56	ibdknox	cemerick: oh nice!
14:56	mk	ibdknox: is it this a virtual file that imports other files? Is it used for display like the function bubbles are, or for something else?
14:57	dnolen	cemerick: neat!
14:57	cemerick	hiredman: anything that prints a var that contains the offending meta will pop the error. (do (def ^{:type :a} a 5) nil) will set the trap.
14:57	mk	S11001001: I don't think haskell allows that two distinct things might represent the same value
14:57	hiredman	cemerick: sure, but outside of the repl how oftend do people print vars?
14:57	cemerick	nearly never, sure
14:58	ibdknox	mk: basically imagine function bubbles, without a lot of the visual weight and that seem to connect together as far as text interaction goes
14:58	cemerick	Been meaning to ask: what do people use for cljs tooling? /cc dnolen lynaghk et al.
14:58	pjstadig	i like to print my vars each morning so i know where i left off the night before
14:58	S11001001	mk: there is a natural transformation from Maybe to []
14:58	cemerick	Mostly cljsbuild and a terminal REPL, probably?
14:59	hiredman	maybe print-method needs a rewrite in to two levels
14:59	technomancy	cemerick: had a prolonged case of easing the pain caused by not using cljsbuild in here yesterday
14:59	dnolen	cemerick: lein, lein-cljsbuild
14:59	hiredman	the first level looks at (type ...) or (class ...) and the second level explicitly passes the result
15:00	hiredman	so you could call a different method without mucking with the metadata
15:00	cemerick	dnolen: Have you gotten a cljs repl working through lein? I've not had luck without the nREPL middleware I gisted.
15:00	hiredman	lein-cljsbuild + codemirror in the browser
15:01	dnolen	cemerick: lein-cljsbuild can start REPLs standard or browser
15:01	ibdknox	dnolen: cemerick: I've actually got pretty much everything done for the CLJS stuff, just need to hook it into a websocket so that another browser can listen - I've been modifying LT in itself lately
15:01	dnolen	ibdknox: nice
15:01	stuarthalloway	cemerick: not sure if there is any legitimate reason for such hints
15:01	cemerick	dnolen: oh, the cljsbuild repls; sure, that's a different animal.
15:02	cemerick	stuarthalloway: Although: printing anything else IMeta that isn't IObj but which has a :type slot is going to bonk even if def screens it out.
15:02	hiredman	stuarthalloway: I dunno if you caught my suggestion about splitting print-method I think it could be done in a backwards compatible way, but doing it that way is certainly more complicated
15:03	mk	S11001001: perhaps, but you can't choose to represent the same list values as either arrays or linked lists
15:04	stuarthalloway	hiredman, cemerick thanks -- think I will paste summary into ticket and if somebody cares enough they can code ie
15:04	stuarthalloway	s/e/t
15:06	S11001001	mk: depends on what you mean by value :)
15:10	kenneth	hey -- so i was having this problem yesterday which seems to be related to AOT compilation of a dependency -- https://gist.github.com/7c21052f4d192abc362d
15:11	kenneth	is there any way to fix that?
15:11	rhoward	can this done in clojure: adding icons to images which expand on mouseover. eg: https://stipple.com/a#browse/photos/3298561
15:12	emezeske	rhoward: Anything you can do in javascript, you can do in clojurescript
15:13	drewr	...except access an attribute that's also a reserved word
15:13	amalloy	drewr: (aget x "int"), done?
15:14	drewr	I had some use that was apparently beyond that functionality
15:14	mk	S11001001: I mean the usual. The natural value 1 as distinct from the rational 1, and values are equal to themselves, and can't be put twice into a set, and they assure referential transparency
15:15	drewr	some node lib that had "boolean" attr as a function
15:16	S11001001	sure, but haskell does have isomorphisms (i.e. two things having different values but representing the same thing), and it doesn't have type hierarchies
15:17	cmiles74	Does the autodoc plugin get cranky with lein2? I'm wondering if it's me or not.
15:17	amalloy	drewr: you can still do that, it's just unpleasant
15:18	drewr	amalloy: oh; dnolen told me at the time it was a compiler bug but maybe it's been fixed or worked around
15:18	amalloy	i don't actually use cljs at all, but i think the following would work: (.call (aget x "boolean") x args)
15:18	amalloy	if dnolen says it's impossible, he's probably right though
15:19	drewr	;-)
15:19	dnolen	drewr: amalloy: seems possible, though I also recall this bug maybe getting fixed. if it hasn't seems like a relatively simple fix.
15:19	stuarthalloway	amalloy: looks like the patch https://gist.github.com/b7ecd4395a0d3d473de6 would try to treat s as an Exception and then as a seq, in the case where log-error gets retried after a failed .offer
15:20	gfredericks	&(let [++ #'+] (with-redefs [+ (fn [a b] (++ a b))] (+ 1 2)))
15:20	lazybot	⇒ 3
15:20	gfredericks	can anybody explain to me why that doesn't stack overflow?
15:20	gfredericks	(by calling the new function over and over)
15:20	dnolen	drewr: just tried at the the repl (.-boolean (js-obj)), seems to work.
15:20	amalloy	stuarthalloway: yikes, you're right. should be (if (instance? Exception s) (log-error q s) (try ...)), right?
15:20	drewr	dnolen: great!
15:21	amalloy	oh wait, no, it already is that way, just the indentation looks weird in the diff you're looking at
15:21	mk	S11001001: the natural 1 and the rational 1 don't represent the same thing. They're distinct entities, values, incidentally both called 1
15:21	stuarthalloway	amalloy, that is what I was checking next :-)
15:22	stuarthalloway	the patch is easier to read than the gist -- you tricked me!
15:22	amalloy	gfredericks: + is inlined
15:23	S11001001	mk: yes, though that doesn't forbid a nat -> rat isomorphism
15:23	gfredericks	amalloy: that's it, thx
15:25	S11001001	mk: and I'm totally a fan of them being distinct values as well
15:29	mk	S11001001: in addition, some languages allow that the very same value (not merely isomorphic) can be represented in different ways. In java, you might represent the very same value using two distinct classes
15:30	mk	in clojure, there are longs and bigints
15:31	mk	S11001001: have to go though, thanks for the chat
15:38	Gnosis-	has anyone written a conditions system similar to Lisp's condition sytem?
15:38	Gnosis-	Common Lisp's*
15:39	Gnosis-	I think it would be a fun project to write one :) http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html
15:41	Gnosis-	it seems like a condition-handlers var that's a list of handler maps would be the natural way to do this
15:45	cemerick	Looks like the cljs repl can only be used once? Quitting a cljs REPL and then starting another one up results in org.mozilla.javascript.EcmaError: TypeError: Cannot read property "StringBuffer" from undefined (cljs/core.cljs#6154)
15:49	dnolen	cemerick: you mean trying to start the Rhino REPL again from the Clojure REPL?
15:49	devn	Hello conservatives.
15:49	devn	RE: https://plus.google.com/u/0/110981030061712822816/posts/KaSKeg4vQtz
15:49	cemerick	dnolen: yeah
15:50	kenneth	anybody? i'm kind of stuck here, no idea how to debug this issue
15:50	dnolen	cemerick: just tried at the command line - works for me. but that's using vanilla Clojure 1.4.0 repl.
15:51	kenneth	https://gist.github.com/7c21052f4d192abc362d
15:51	cemerick	dnolen: Yeah, same here; I'm using script/repl in the cljs source tree.
15:52	cemerick	cljs master FWIW
15:52	dnolen	cemerick: yep, I'm not seeing that on master, are you constructing a new env each time?
15:53	cemerick	though I'm getting the same over nREPL too, which prompted me to go to script/repl to verify…
15:54	technomancy	Gnosis-: an implementation exists, but it's been disavowed by its author
15:54	Cheiron	Hi, would you please have a look at this question: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/clojure/MfRvSMZV_ok%5B1-25%5D
15:54	Gnosis-	technomancy: haha, why?
15:54	cemerick	kenneth: can you re-ask?
15:55	technomancy	Gnosis-: I think it did too much
15:55	hiredman	I imagne because a condition system is only useful if people use it, 90% of the time you deal with exceptions you are catching other people's
15:55	Gnosis-	oh. I was picturing a very simple implementation
15:55	cemerick	dnolen: just did a complete wash-and-repeat. Same error.
15:55	Gnosis-	with some macros for ease of use
15:55	technomancy	and what hiredman said
15:55	Raynes	emezeske: Hi
15:55	hiredman	~slingshot
15:55	clojurebot	slingshot is the successor to clojure.contrib.condition: https://github.com/scgilardi/slingshot
15:55	kenneth	cemerick: i'm seeing https://gist.github.com/7c21052f4d192abc362d this exception / compilation error
15:56	hiredman	kenneth: I told you last night, mismatched clojure versions
15:56	kenneth	hiredman: right, how do i attack / debug that?
15:56	kenneth	how would that even happen on a clojar?
15:57	hiredman	kenneth: you are using something that was aot compiled to bytecode with a different version of clojure
15:57	technomancy	clojurebot: have you excepted ex-info into your heart?
15:57	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc?al?
15:57	Gnosis-	hiredman: what if there was a macro for wrapping calls to foreign code that would map exceptions to conditions wherever possible?
15:57	hiredman	clojure.contrib.condition speak of the devil
15:57	hiredman	kenneth: what version of clojure are you using?
15:57	kenneth	hiredman: my project.clj only has one dependency: [com.github.drsnyder/beanstalk "1.0.0-SNAPSHOT"] + clojure 1.3 (also tried 1.4)
15:58	hiredman	clojure.contrib.* is deprecated post 1.2
15:58	hiredman	Gnosis-: shrug
15:58	hiredman	kenneth: so this beanstalk thing may not work post 1.2
15:59	xeqi	kenneth: https://github.com/drsnyder/beanstalk/blob/master/project.clj
15:59	xeqi	shows using 1.2.0 / contrib
15:59	kenneth	okay, so i should use one of the java libs via interop then…
15:59	hiredman	it is way weird though, because the project.clj doesn't look like it aot compiles
15:59	seancorfield	and parts of contrib are AOT compiled and can't be used with 1.3 or later
15:59	hiredman	ah, right
15:59	hiredman	the aot contrib
16:00	hiredman	kenneth: it is for the best, a lot of little wrapper things like this are not very good
16:00	seancorfield	there's four old contrib modules that are AOT compiled and if you use code that depends on them, then you're stuck on clojure 1.2
16:00	dnolen	cemerick: can't repro here as long as I fully construct the REPL each time according to CLJS Getting Started wiki.
16:01	xeqi	kenneth: https://github.com/weavejester/lein-beanstalk looks like it talks to the java api too, so that might be best
16:01	cemerick	dnolen: e.g. (repl/repl (rhino/repl-env)), correct?
16:04	cemerick	A full terminal log, FWIW: https://gist.github.com/3317393
16:09	alexyakushev	Does anyone need a patched 'count-words' function for Emacs that counts how many Yegges (as unit of measurement) there are in the text?
16:09	alexyakushev	It says that the last gem was about 1.93 Yegges
16:10	amalloy	stuarthalloway: i have a patch for sortedmap/kvreduce that fixes the issue in your patch, as well as a separate issue regarding handling of Reduced values. should i attach it to your ticket, or create a new issue since it addresses another problem?
16:11	stuarthalloway	amalloy: create a new ticket, just with the different part -- my ticket is already ok'ed
16:11	amalloy	stuarthalloway: i added a comment to your ticket explaining that i don't think your patch is correct yet; mind taking a look?
16:11	stuarthalloway	amalloy: will do
16:11	stuarthalloway	breaking for the aft though -- probably Sunday
16:12	amalloy	okay. still want a separate ticket, given that i think i'm fixing your patch as well?
16:12	stuarthalloway	have a great weekend, fellow conservatives :-)
16:13	dnolen	cemerick: works just fine for me.
16:13	cemerick	meh, ok
16:15	cemerick	gfredericks: you'll get there sometime tomorrow
16:16	dnolen	chouser: nice post!
16:16	gfredericks	well I hope when I do that it makes me angry
16:16	cemerick	dnolen: well, it pops up using the cljs maven dep too. Oh well, someone else will either hit it or not.
16:16	nDuff	Is there a motion in emacs/paredit for bringing the following line's code to the pointer? Simply pressing delete at EOL brings all the leading whitespace over.
16:16	cemerick	gfredericks: if you haven't facepalmed a couple dozen times already…
16:17	gfredericks	cemerick: I must not be opinionated enough? so far it seems reasonable
16:17	Raynes	emezeske: Ping me when you've got a couple of moments. I've got problems to complain about.
16:17	chouser	dnolen: thanks. I don't consider Yegge a troll, so this is feeding, right?
16:17	gfredericks	reasonable that some people are conservative, not the conservative ideas themselves
16:18	technomancy	context: http://groups.google.com/group/seajure/browse_thread/thread/18baa18ffdbdd790/917004da1b517f11
16:20	alexyakushev	nDuff: I use 'join-line' from the line I want to bring up
16:21	cemerick	gfredericks: My temperature was raised simply by his throwing around political labels like a frenzied monkey working a carnival dunk tank…in a domain that has thankfully avoided the (mis)use of those labels for the most part before now.
16:22	cgray	My understand of Yegge's argument is "functional languages like Haskell are statically typed and therefore conservative, Clojure is functional, therefore Clojure is conservative"
16:22	technomancy	«When people announce: "hey, I made a loop macro!" the response absolutely can NOT be: "why can't you just write it as a series of maps and reductions?" If anyone says that they need to be re-educated in the economic importance of embracing diverse programming styles.»
16:23	acheng	cemerick: gfredericks: yeah, no one likes to be bundled and boxed... he continues to grow stronger as we discuss him. i wouldn't have read it had i not heard about it here
16:23	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/what.gif
16:23	gfredericks	yeah I guess he did make strong assertions about the permanence of the labels
16:25	technomancy	haha: "Clojure's been around for over three years now. It's fairly mature. But
16:25	technomancy	it's not in the TIOBE top 50 languages. [...] To me that says Clojure is doing something seriously wrong."
16:25	gtrak`	you guys ever seen 'lein compile' compile the same namespace twice? what's that about...
16:26	gtrak`	doing :aot :all
16:26	technomancy	gtrak`: probably an issue with timestamps
16:26	Raynes	technomancy: Oh man, that's awesome.
16:26	cemerick	Anyway; politics and programming are two of my favorite pastimes/topics, and they are both incredibly nuanced fields with rich histories and interesting futures. It's sad to have seen them intertwined and abused so poorly in the process.
16:26	technomancy	gtrak`: on the filesystem
16:27	gtrak`	technomancy: it goes away when I remove the class from the :main key
16:27	technomancy	Raynes: yeah, better get valim on the phone and let him know the clock is ticking.
16:27	technomancy	gtrak`: oh, in that case it's a leiningen bug. does it happen on master too?
16:27	gtrak`	1.6.1.1
16:28	technomancy	gtrak`: wow
16:28	gtrak`	old?
16:28	technomancy	beyond old
16:28	technomancy	nearly 12 whole months
16:28	gtrak`	hehe, sorry I guess we have some legacy clojure code here that depends on it ;-)
16:28	gtrak`	but it seems harmless
16:29	technomancy	yeah, it will probably mostly work, but the number of bugs that have been fixed since then is enormous =)
16:30	dnolen	chouser: I actually always considered him to be a bit of celebrity troll who had a soft spot for Lisp & JS
16:34	scriptor	it's also nicely timed with election season
16:35	gtrak`	I don't know why he bothered with submitting as evidence that someone said macros are risky, his only piece of evidence
16:36	gtrak`	the point of a language is to give a baseline of abstractions
16:37	gtrak`	he should just use forth
16:38	scriptor	a paper citing the opinion of one person at a conference as a marker for general opinion would get laughed at in most scientific fields
16:51	cgray	technomancy: I asked the other day about writing a plugin for a new jvm-based lang... I've written an ant task, but my boss (i.e. the compiler writer) hates the idea of including ant.jar in the compiler... is that fairly standard practice?
16:52	technomancy	cgray: it's probably fine to keep it in a separate artifact
16:53	cgray	technomancy: it = the ant task?
16:53	technomancy	yeah
16:53	chouser	dnolen: oh, no, so I did feed a troll? But I like so many of his articles...
16:53	dgrnbrg_	I am pondering a new use of lein that I have encountered at work
16:53	technomancy	chouser: I hate to break it to you, but ... yeah
16:53	chouser	shoot
16:53	dgrnbrg_	I'm building a research environment, and there are global/config variables that I want to set that should be visible inside the project
16:54	technomancy	top of HN; too late to back out now. pivot to having done it ironically. =)
16:54	dgrnbrg_	things like "where should I save results?" or "which hosts should be used for rendering?" or "which datasources are on the table?"
16:54	chouser	technomancy: ha!
16:54	dgrnbrg_	Is there a good way to pass leiningen project keys into the project's JVM?
16:55	dgrnbrg_	or is there another accepted way of doing that kind of thing?
16:55	technomancy	dgrnbrg_: take a look at configleaf
16:55	chouser	I would have left it with Rich's tweet, except I'm not happy being called a liberal either. :-P
16:55	technomancy	which is a wonderful name
16:55	technomancy	chouser: "classical liberal" maybe?
16:55	dgrnbrg_	technomancy: this looks AWESOME!
16:55	dgrnbrg_	thank you
16:55	technomancy	early-20th-century definition
16:55	antifuchs	wow, those binary political classifications again.
16:55	technomancy	thank dsantiago
16:56	gtrak`	oo, rich's HN response is good: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4366661
16:56	hiredman	dgrnbrg_: my favorite for that kind of thing is to just but a config.clj on the classpath that just contains a map of config options
16:57	hiredman	the coolest sound binary classification is hard style / soft style, so that is what we should use
16:57	hiredman	sounding
16:57	antifuchs	hiredman: ahahah yes, always.
16:58	antifuchs	also, mandatory dance routines
16:59	technomancy	hiredman: like hard/soft sci-fi? http://harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=231
16:59	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_%28martial_arts%29
17:00	technomancy	H.G. Wells is totally JS sci-fi
17:00	antifuchs	hiredman: I thought you meant dance styles
17:00	hiredman	hard or soft style egg
17:00	hiredman	using the word "style" is where the style comes from
17:00	antifuchs	also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnfbEU5wUHg - assembly is jump style programming
17:01	technomancy	uvtc: no, the important thing there is endianness =)
17:01	uvtc	technomancy: hahaha. :)
17:02	chouser	gtrak`: heh, yes, but he uses "FOX-news" in the way he complains about Yegge using "conservative"
17:03	gtrak	chouser: ha, that's something clearly a liberal would say
17:16	gtrak	anyone seen a java.io.FileNotFoundException: maven-artifact-2.0.8.jar error with lein-ring?
17:20	pauldoo	Is there any difference between the final value object produced by (vec '(1 2 3)) and [1 2 3] ? I'm observing that using the latter uses much less memory..
17:21	gtrak	doubtful
17:21	hiredman	(vec '(1 2 3)) will create a list, turn it into an array and make a vector from it
17:21	hiredman	(if I recall)
17:21	pauldoo	yep, that's correct
17:21	hiredman	[1 2 3] it depends
17:21	pauldoo	but should the vector value it returns be any smaller than [1 2 3]
17:22	hiredman	pauldoo: how are you measuring?
17:22	gtrak	perhaps your GC hasn't kicked in yet in the first case
17:23	pauldoo	gtrak: yeh maybe, though I am calling (System/gc) before measuring heap usage.. it seems to be fairly repeatable
17:23	uvtc	This http://clojars.org/repo/ is a big list of group-id's, correct?
17:23	pauldoo	hiredman: I'm using lots of these things and placing them into collections. I'm then calling System.gc, then Runtime.getRuntime().availableMemory(), etc to measure heap usage
17:23	technomancy	uvtc: the first segment of the group-id, rather
17:24	hiredman	I suppose the create from array for vectors could have a special case
17:24	uvtc	Did not know group-id's could have multiple segments. What does a multi-segment group-id look like?
17:24	hiredman	pauldoo: have you seen tuples?
17:24	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/tuples
17:25	technomancy	uvtc: com.cemerick/drawbridge, for example
17:25	pauldoo	hiredman: hehe, by coincidence I've been peering at your tuples code for a few hours tonight. I'm interested in reducing memory usage and I was considering a hardcoded 3-tuple deftype..
17:26	pauldoo	hiredman: I got stuck at needing to make my 3-tuples comparable, and noticed that [1 2 3] form gave me most of the reduce memory usage I want already
17:26	hiredman	I noticed tuples hit the "most forked today" list for clojure
17:26	uvtc	technomancy: Oh. dot-separated. Like namespaces. Hm.
17:27	uvtc	technomancy: thanks for finding me that example.
17:28	hiredman	pauldoo: I think the tuples are comparable
17:29	pauldoo	hiredman: I'll go drag those in and see how those compare. they boil down to fixed java classes with N fields right? no other runtime baggage?
17:30	hiredman	yes
17:30	pauldoo	hiredman: perfection :)
17:30	mindbender1	God bless technomancy for M-.
17:30	hiredman	the elements are still objects though, so integers will be boxed
17:30	Raynes	technomancy: https://github.com/textmate/textmate
17:30	Raynes	Er darn
17:30	Raynes	technomancy: https://github.com/textmate/textmate/pull/37 actual link
17:31	hiredman	pauldoo: I should warn you they have not seen a lot of use, so there could be rough edges
17:31	hiredman	if you are holding primitives you may also look at gvec
17:32	technomancy	Raynes: ieure is tops
17:32	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/gvec.clj
17:34	technomancy	mindbender1: wasn't me dude =)
17:35	pauldoo	hiredman: I'm using the version from clojars.. Do I really need to (generate-tuples) in my own code.. ?
17:36	hiredman	pauldoo: no, you should be able to use the constructor functions from tuples.core
17:36	hiredman	like in the readme
17:36	pauldoo	(oh, I was looking at your test code..)
17:37	hiredman	the test code is like that for a reason that escapes me at the moment
17:38	pauldoo	hiredman: hm, so your tuples suffer from the same compareTo issue that my attempt at defrecord does
17:38	Cheiron	I want to measure how much space my algorithms is occupying. how to do it?
17:38	hiredman	pauldoo: what is that?
17:38	Cheiron	connect jconsole to lein repl?
17:39	pauldoo	hiredman: I'm using these objects, as well as String objects as keys into a map
17:39	pauldoo	hiredman: they blow up when compared against String values
17:40	hiredman	ah
17:40	amalloy	pauldoo: if you're using a heterogeneous sorted-map, you need to provide a comparator that can compare the things in it
17:40	Cheiron	why map literal creates an array map but not a hash map by default?
17:40	amalloy	eg, you couldn't store vectors and strings as keys in a sorted-map either without additional work
17:41	rbxbx	Is https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire the preferred tool for json parsing/encoding currently since the deprecation of contrib ?
17:41	technomancy	rbxbx: yup
17:41	hiredman	rbxbx: since before
17:41	rbxbx	technomancy hiredman thanks :)
17:41	Raynes	rbxbx: cheshire is probably the most common, but there is also an acceptable contrib library to use too.
17:41	pauldoo	amalloy: hm, yeh of course.. this problem must be coming from elsewhere...
17:41	Raynes	https://github.com/clojure/data.json
17:41	Raynes	AFAIK, cheshire is much faster.
17:41	pauldoo	amalloy: it's a hash map thing, so I've presumably misread exactly where this problem is coming from
17:42	hiredman	a map in java would normally use .hashcode and .equals, but I guess you could use .hashcode and .compareTo
17:42	rbxbx	Raynes performance isn't super important, but this is good to know. Thanks.
17:46	Raynes	emezeske: I'll find you. I'll hunt you down.
17:47	Cheiron	Hi, what are the advantages of array map over hash map?
17:47	Cheiron	I might be wrong but i guess hash maps are O(1)
17:47	gtrak	insertion-order iteration, rt?
17:48	gtrak	an array-map will eventually become a persistenthashmap if you do enough assocs
17:48	gtrak	http://clojure.org/data_structures#Data%20Structures-ArrayMaps
17:49	technomancy	Cheiron: big-o notation is immaterial for small values of N
17:50	pauldoo	hiredman: it's actually a call to Util/equiv which is causing my issue. I haven't figured out what the other object type is, but one is certainly a tuple. Util/equiv calls to compareTo (via Tuple3's equiv), and this is when I get my crash
17:50	emezeske	Raynes: Haha, I am kind of busy but I can try to respond
17:51	Cheiron	so why the designers of clojure decided that map literal will create an instance of array map?
17:51	Raynes	emezeske: No worries. :)
17:51	emezeske	Raynes: Don't blame me if my Engrish is the badness
17:51	Raynes	I promise I wont kill you or anything.
17:51	hiredman	pauldoo: do you know which objects .compareTo is being called? what is the stacktrace?
17:51	amalloy	hiredman: check https://github.com/hiredman/tuples/blob/master/src/tuples/core.clj#L191
17:51	pjstadig	hiredman: pauldoo: that may be an issue, since clojure's equality and hashing functions aren't open
17:52	pauldoo	hiredman: I haven't figured that out yet. The objects are keys to PeristentArrayMaps. I thought I was only using String and Tuple, but Util/equiv works fine between these types on the repl.
17:52	pjstadig	any classes you create that don't fall into clojure's equality partitions probably won't work well with hashmaps
17:52	pauldoo	hiredman: I'll need to do a little more digging
17:52	hiredman	amalloy: oh, huh, I wonder that I did that for
17:52	Raynes	emezeske: Anyways, I'm mostly wondering if there is some example of a working project targeting nodejs with lein-cljsbuild. I tried it, but doing (:require [cljs.nodejs :as node]) and having :target :nodejs results in an exception stating that cljs.nodejs doesn't exist.
17:52	amalloy	hiredman: faster than comparing (seq this) to (seq other), probably
17:53	hiredman	amalloy: it is gaurded by an (if (instance? Sequential though
17:53	amalloy	hiredman: so? you can't compare all Sequentials, can you?
17:53	amalloy	&(compare [1 2] '(1 2))
17:53	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentVector
17:53	hiredman	it calls the tuples .compareTo, which should work on all Sequentials, it uses nth
17:54	hiredman	ah
17:54	amalloy	hiredman: no, your tuple compareTo casts to vector
17:54	hiredman	yeah
17:54	hiredman	and nth is from randomaccess not Sequential
17:54	amalloy	from Indexed, i think
17:55	hiredman	right randomaccess is the java one
17:55	amalloy	yeah, that sounds right
17:55	emezeske	Raynes: Unfortunately, I don't know of any such example (could be one, I just am not aware)
17:55	Raynes	emezeske: It should Just Work, right?
17:55	emezeske	Raynes: I've never set that up myself, so I am not sure whether it works, etc, although I would expect it to
17:55	Raynes	I can put together an example for you if that'd be helpful.
17:56	Raynes	But there isn't any hurry for you to look at it.
17:56	Raynes	If we can get things working, we can add an example project.
17:57	emezeske	Yeah, I would be very much in favor of adding an example project
17:57	emezeske	And I would like things to work nicely with nodejs, so I can help with that for sure
17:57	Raynes	Awesome. I'll throw what I've got onto github and ping you. You can take a look whenever you've got some time.
17:58	pauldoo	hiredman: sorry, I was deep in code there and missed the conversation. Do you understand what the problem might be? (or should I keep debugging?)
17:58	hiredman	I have an idea
17:58	emezeske	Raynes: Sweet. Mind opening a lein-cljsbuild issue so I don't forget?
17:59	Raynes	Will do. I'm kinda worried I'm just doing something stupid though, so don't hold it against me if it isn't an actual issue with lein-cljsbuild. :p
17:59	pauldoo	hiredman: hehe, cool :) I'm guessing it occurs on hash-collision between a tuple and a string. But I can't reproduce this in a repl, and I only have a strong suspicion the other type is a string
17:59	emezeske	Raynes: No worries -- doesn't matter how we get to a working example project as long as we get there!
17:59	hiredman	pauldoo: more likely a list
18:00	hiredman	hmmm that didn't fail in my test either
18:01	pauldoo	hiredman: whatever the values in the list returned by re-seq are
18:01	pauldoo	hiredman: I'd have guessed strings, but they might be some other CharSequence things
18:02	hiredman	pauldoo: if you could paste a stacktrace that would be good
18:02	hiredman	pastebin
18:03	Raynes	emezeske: Issue 114 created, kind sir.
18:03	solussd	"Caused by: java.io.IOException: File name too long". I'm screwed, aren't I?
18:04	Raynes	Well, you could use a shorter file name.
18:04	nDuff	solussd: On a Microsoft platform, I'm guessing?
18:05	nDuff	(there _are_ limits on *nix systems as well, but they tend to be pretty insanely long)
18:05	pauldoo	hiredman: http://pastebin.com/F2XmFxM3
18:05	emezeske	Raynes: grazie
18:06	hiredman	pauldoo: fuh, weird
18:07	hiredman	oh
18:07	hiredman	I see
18:07	hiredman	yeah, I cannot use .compareTo for a composite type like that
18:07	solussd	nDuff: Heroku
18:07	nDuff	hiredman: ...oh, this reminds me -- I went looking for where the existing substring-matching factoids live in clojurebot (to submit a patch to warn folks away from pastebin.com), and had no luck finding it.
18:07	solussd	nDuff: and OSX
18:07	nDuff	solussd: ...how long _is_ this filename?
18:08	solussd	nDuff: it's the name of a function (the expansion of several macros w/ closures)
18:08	solussd	I don't know what it is expanded though, not in the stacktrace
18:08	nDuff	...hrm, just 255 bytes in OS X; that's... limiting.
18:09	solussd	it's 255 bytes on just about all modern filesystems
18:09	nDuff	solussd: ...anyhow, the usual approach for this kind of case is to make the end of it a hash when the rest would go over
18:09	solussd	mae the end of what a hash?
18:09	solussd	*make
18:09	nDuff	solussd: ...oh, you're right -- it's total path length I was thinking about (that's usually several K, but comparatively tiny on win32 except when using the Unicode file API)
18:10	nDuff	solussd: nod -- replace the tail of the filename with a hash of its contents with a known maximum length
18:10	solussd	but the file is a .class being generated by the clojure compiler
18:11	nDuff	Ahh.
18:11	solussd	at least i'm assuming since I'm not reading any files and the exception is thrown on a line that ultimately expands into a function
18:13	solussd	methinks the clojure compiler should support arbitrarily long class$subclass.class names, bc namespaces are classes and functions are subclasses
18:16	amalloy	solussd: are you using cryptfs or something? i had this problem when AOT-compiling an unusually-deeply-nested function, because cryptfs was like doubling the filename's length
18:17	amalloy	eg, ##(class ((fn [] ((fn [] ((fn [] ((fn [] ((fn [] ((fn [] (fn []))))))))))))))
18:17	lazybot	⇒ sandbox8867$eval26107$fn__26108$fn__26109$fn__26110$fn__26111$fn__26112$fn__26113$fn__26114
18:19	amalloy	granted the clojure compiler perhaps ought to be a little more careful about the length of the filenames it generates, but even that absurdly long classname is easily short enough to fit in a filename unless your filesystem mangles it
18:20	talios	amalloy - one might suggest at that point your should just stop using anonymous functions and move them out to a well named one.
18:20	amalloy	talios: sure, except that lots of macros introduce incidental functions for you
18:21	Raynes	And enlive introduces like 400 for you.
18:21	talios	of course - theres nothing to stop the compiler putting all of those $fn's at the same level, they don't HAVE to be nested, just cause the clojure source is nested
18:21	amalloy	eg, try compiling (for [xs foo, ys xs, zs ys, z zs] z), which generates a function nested about as deeply as that
18:22	hiredman	pauldoo: 0.0.2 is up on clojars
18:22	talios	this is something where I think method handles/invoke dynamic would be good - they don't HAVE to be classes.
18:22	pauldoo	hiredman: I've just thought, is it because my tuples contain strings?
18:23	hiredman	pauldoo: it because tuples equiv calls .compareTo which compares the elements, and strings and keywords are not comparable
18:24	pauldoo	hiredman: yay! success!, it works :) Thanks for the amazing real-time support! :)
18:25	hiredman	it owuld be nice to hear if it works out for you (better memory footprint) or not (for whatever reason)
18:26	pauldoo	hiredman: just running that test now… * drumroll *
18:27	pauldoo	hiredman: more memory usage than literals.. apparently..
18:27	hiredman	Hah, well, egg on my face then?
18:28	pauldoo	hiredman: I mean [a b c] seems to use less memory than (tuple a b c)
18:28	amalloy	really? how is it even possible for a Tuple3 to use up more memory than a vector?
18:28	pauldoo	amalloy, I have no idea.. I also have no idea why [a b c] takes less space than (vec collection-known-to-contain-3-things)
18:29	hiredman	pauldoo: I would start questioning the measurements
18:29	amalloy	me too
18:29	pauldoo	amalloy: I suspect my very naive memory testing is partly to blame. I'm just using System.gc, and Runtime.*Memory()
18:29	pauldoo	hiredman: yep - me too, I completely question the measurements
18:29	amalloy	a valid implementation of System/gc is (constantly nil)
18:30	kenneth	hey -- i'm getting a class not found exception for "broker" with this code https://gist.github.com/1278d12a6792b7a2ff7a
18:30	pauldoo	amalloy: yep - I know.. :P
18:30	amalloy	(vec '(a b c)) is absolutely going to create exactly the same object as '[a b c], but it may create more ephemeral garbage
18:30	kenneth	running lein run -m broker
18:30	hiredman	~namespaces
18:30	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
18:31	kenneth	used to work fine. i did change my (ns) macro, did i fuck up my gen-class something?
18:32	hiredman	^-
18:34	pauldoo	hiredman: thanks for the help tonight.. I'm stopping now but I might look further into this memory usage. I agree that my numbers are likely to be borked.
18:36	casion	any suggestions for 'good' clojure projects to peruse the source of for learning purposes?
18:37	casion	I've been browsing github, rosetta code and the clojure source, but I'd be interested in anything else folks find useful to check out
18:38	kenneth	hiredman: okay, refactoring for a two-level namespace
18:38	hyPiRion	casion: Are you interested in dipping your toe in the pool, or do you want to drink from the firehose?
18:39	casion	hyPiRion: stuff I can understand is as good as stuff that will make me want understand more
18:40	casion	so… anything :)
18:40	kenneth	hiredman: i'm using a two-level namespace now (lein run -m cb.broker) :)
18:40	hiredman	casion: there is a lot of variety, at lot of which compared to what we have work (were we are very strict about style) makes me cringe
18:40	casion	hiredman: I didnt understand that… I think you missed a word in there?
18:41	hiredman	casion: should be "a lot"
18:41	casion	or a comma or something
18:41	casion	ah ok
18:42	kenneth	i'm still having the same problem though -- not sure what's wrong with my ns definition¬ i think it's connected to that
18:42	hiredman	so I think just reading a lot is good, so you are exposed to the differences
18:42	casion	I'm still figuring out functional programming concepts and more or less funding idiomatic clojure code has been invaluable in this regard
18:42	casion	finding*
18:44	hiredman	casion: leinigen might be good, fair sized project with many contributors
18:44	hiredman	kenneth: pastebin the stacktrace
18:45	xeqi	casion: I like ring and compojure sources
18:45	hiredman	https://github.com/scgilardi/slingshot/ has some interesting sort of conditional compilation
18:46	kenneth	hiredman: https://gist.github.com/1278d12a6792b7a2ff7a -- added the stack trace at the bottom
18:46	xeqi	lein has to do a bunch of java/filesystem interaction, but parts of it could be good
18:47	hiredman	kenneth: and what is the path from the project root to your clojure file?
18:47	hiredman	xeqi: yeah, well, so do real programs :)
18:47	kenneth	hiredman src/clj/cb/broker.clj
18:48	kenneth	hiredman: fwiw, i did a test with an empty core.clj in the same folder, and running lein run -m cb.core and that works fine
18:48	hiredman	what version of lein?
18:48	kenneth	(all i did was println inside the -main of the otherwise empty file)
18:48	kenneth	1.7.1 and clojure 1.4
18:49	hiredman	kenneth: does the file load?
18:49	hiredman	like if you copied and pasted it in to the repl are their errors?
18:50	hiredman	my guess is lein is trying to load the namespace, fails, and falls back to looking for the class
18:52	pbostrom	kenneth: you appear to be requiring the java package com.surftools.BeanstalkClient, is that correct?
18:54	pbostrom	kenneth: by that I mean, that's probably not what you want to do
19:12	Cheiron	How to profile clojure code with jvisualvm? I attached jvisualvm to a running lein repl but it is measuring jlint
19:13	gtrak	?
19:13	gtrak	Cheiron: it should work, not there are two lein processes usually
19:13	aperiodic	are you sure you're hitting the right java process?
19:13	gtrak	note*
19:13	Cheiron	i started cpu profiling, but all profiled methods are jlines
19:14	Cheiron	from jvisualvm, Local -> jline.ConsoleRunner (pid 6980) and connect
19:14	gtrak	... did you read what we just said?
19:15	aperiodic	try different processes
19:19	Cheiron	forgive my ignorance but under Local, there are only two items, VisualVM and jline.ConsoleRunner (pid 6980)
19:23	aperiodic	are you sure the repl is running? when you have visualvm open and you launch more lein repls, do you see them show up?
19:24	aperiodic	on my visualvm (1.6.0_33 build 120430 on OS X 10.6.8), any clojure applications show up as 'Clojure application (pid xxxxx)'
19:24	Cheiron	yes the lein repl is running. I launched a second lein repl. both are shown as jline.ConsoleRunner (pid ....)
19:25	Cheiron	I'm launching the repl with lein
19:25	aperiodic	i have repls running and i don't see any jline.ConsoleRunner processes
19:26	Cheiron	should I launched a raw Clojure repl? (without lein)
19:26	Cheiron	*launch
19:26	aperiodic	worth a shot, i guess
19:27	aperiodic	sounds like a problem with visualvm, honestly. not sure what to do, sorry
19:28	Cheiron	actually my environment is exactly like yours, both the jvm and the os
19:28	aperiodic	hmm
19:28	aperiodic	what lein version?
19:29	aperiodic	s/what/which/
19:29	kenneth	hiredman: sorry i stepped out for a second
19:29	Cheiron	Leiningen 1.7.1 on Java 1.6.0_33 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM
19:31	aperiodic	Cheiron: i'm using lein2 from master. give either that or lein2-preview7 a shot
19:32	kenneth	i'm indeed importing the package com.surftools.BeanstalkClient -- https://github.com/jpeffer/JavaBeanstalkClient/blob/master/src/main/java/com/surftools/BeanstalkClient/Client.java
19:32	kenneth	\
19:32	amalloy	hiredman: i'm trying to use a scheduled executor to perform background tasks at regular intervals as you usually advocate, but i can't see a way to get all my background tasks to share threads from an automatically-sized pool, because ScheduledThreadPoolExecutor mandates that corePoolSize==maximumPoolSize. do you know any clever solution to this, or should i just suck it up and give each background task its own executor (and thus thread)?
19:32	kenneth	this is the first time i ever require java code from clojure so i might be doing it wrong
19:33	xeqi	kenneth: the gist is also trying to :require it, which shouldn't work
19:33	amalloy	kenneth: he was concerned because BeanstalkClient is a terrible name for a java package, and it was likely you were confused into thinking it's a package when it's not. but apparently it is
19:33	hiredman	amalloy: are you schedule lots of longing running taks that run at the same time?
19:34	kenneth	amalloy: yeah, i'm kind of confused by it myself. i don't quite get the point of having a package for the interface implemented by an implementation package
19:34	amalloy	hiredman: right now i only have one not-very-long task. but i'm trying to make this reusable
19:34	amalloy	the idea is to pass a thunk and a duration, and have the thunk called for you every [duration], saving the results somewhere you can get at them
19:35	Cheiron	aperiodic: launching a raw repl shows "Clojure application pid ..."
19:35	amalloy	at the moment, this is to compute/cache a function that might take a very long time, and just serve the last-cached value since being exactly correct isn't important
19:36	hiredman	amalloy: I would lean more towards what scheduledthreadpool provides, but if you want an open ended threadpool you can use a scheduled thread pool to launch futures
19:36	kenneth	okay let me ask you this, then. if i've included this java maven packaging in lein with [com.surftools/BeanstalkClient "1.4.6"] -- considering the library look like this https://github.com/jpeffer/JavaBeanstalkClient/tree/master/src/main/java/com/surftools how would i use it from a clojure project?
19:37	aperiodic	Cheiron: ok, i'm gonna blame this on lein 1.7.1, then. FWIW, I've found profiling/sampling to make much more sense when I compile the project into an uberjar and launch that (so lein/repl/swank stuff doesn't get in the way, I guess)
19:38	hiredman	amalloy: actually for the cache case like that using an stpe to schedule sending actions to an agent might work well
19:39	amalloy	hiredman: yes, agents are certainly easier. i didn't want to do that though, because if your function takes longer than your schedule duration, the agent queue grows without bound
19:39	amalloy	perhaps i'm just jumping at shadows, though, and i should use agents since they're so easy/perfect except for that one problem
19:40	hiredman	you don't want the agent queue to grow without bounds, but you want the threadpool for stpe to grow without bounds?
19:41	hiredman	well, thats not fair, I guess maximumPoolSize would be a bound
19:41	amalloy	right, and it seems to me like the scenario for an agent queue growing without bound (a single badly-behaved task) is more likely than the scenario for the threadpool growing without bound (a large number of concurrently-executing tasks)
19:44	amalloy	as an aside, am i crazy for wanting to customize the thing agents use to store their queue? eg, pass it a max-size-one queue so that tasks can't pile up if repeat sends don't matter
19:46	hiredman	amalloy: I think scheduling jobs that may run for longer then their period is the problem
19:47	mk	amalloy: what do you mean about repeat sends? note that agent tasks aren't queued right away during transactions, but come in in bulk afterwards
19:47	hiredman	one possiblity is to check some kind of mutex in the scheduled job to see if the agent action is running, if not send-off, if so do nothing
19:47	amalloy	okay. so you think, just use agents because they're convenient/performant, and if the queue fills up that's your problem?
19:49	hiredman	no, if their is a chance the job will run longer than the period that is a real problem and should be addressed, one way would be to use something like a try-lock to ensure that only one version of the job runs
19:50	hiredman	the agent cold hold the value + a status flag, and you use 2 actions the first to set the flag and the second to run the job and unset the flag
19:51	hiredman	I guess that still has the queue problem
19:51	hiredman	you need the mutex for each job before you queue/run it
19:51	amalloy	hiredman: i think that's arguably a problem of the person using this cache-queue function, which they should address, but not a problem of the cache-queue implementation
19:53	kenneth	gs
19:53	kenneth	whoops wrong window there
19:53	kenneth	looks like you don't need to require something before importing it! neat
19:53	mdeboard	I will never forgive you.
19:54	amalloy	kenneth: require and import are entirely orthogonal
19:54	mk	amalloy: are you computing something based on new data, like an approximate average or something?
19:54	amalloy	require loads a clojure namespace; import makes available short names for already-loaded java classes
19:55	amalloy	mk: yeah, based on whatever changes have happened to the database
19:56	amalloy	a potentially slow query that can't be sped up (yet), but which doesn't need to be exactly up-to-date
19:56	hiredman	perfect for caching
19:56	kenneth	amalloy: right but i figured it wasn't loaded already. or does including a java package as a dependency in lein auto load it?
19:56	amalloy	hiredman: yeah, which is exactly what i'm doing here
19:57	hiredman	amalloy: you can just provide scheduling and rate limiting as separate complementary bits
19:57	amalloy	oh, rate-limit the agent-send function?
19:57	hiredman	yeah
19:58	mk	amalloy: this doesn't seem like a job for an agent. At least, the agent would be used to accept requests, but then the agent would have to dump them into a managed secondary queue.
19:58	amalloy	that's a good idea. i already have a rate-limit function. but how can i do it? i can't know what rate to limit it to, because i don't know how long the task will take
19:58	hiredman	amalloy: hmmm
19:59	hiredman	yeah I guess you cannot do that separately, would have to take it as an option
20:01	mk	can the agent just decrement numInQueue, while the sender sends and increments it, but only if it's below n?
20:03	hiredman	I noticed https://github.com/stuarthalloway/orolo/blob/master/src/orolo/periodically.clj the other day, which looks neat but I haven't played with it
20:03	hiredman	it exposes scheduled tasks to jmx so you can suspend and resume them
20:07	amalloy	that's cool
20:07	hiredman	it would be cooler if we used jmx at all at sonian
20:09	hiredman	expose counters, etc, over jvm plus something like http://code.google.com/p/jminix/ would be neat
20:19	mk	what is loaded-libs used for?
20:44	wkelly	92===
20:44	wkelly	erm, sorry!
20:44	gfredericks	93+++
20:51	meredydd	Hey, does Hiccup do something weird with thread-local bindings and Ring?
20:52	amalloy	i doubt it
20:52	meredydd	I've just hit an issue where I get strange errors about unbound fns when calling hiccup.core stuff
20:52	meredydd	but it doesn't reproduce when calling the same model fns from the repl
20:53	weavejester	meredydd: What does your code look like?
20:53	meredydd	and it doesn't reproduce if I specifically spawn off a separate thread right before the call
20:53	meredydd	Oh, hello weavejester :)
20:53	weavejester	meredydd: Hey there
20:53	meredydd	It's a Ring handler for an API
20:53	meredydd	which then calls into a bunch of model code
20:53	meredydd	some of which then attempts to send an HTML email, some of which is rendered with Hiccup.
20:54	meredydd	If I make exactly the same calls into the model code from the repl, the emails render and send fine
20:54	weavejester	meredydd: Hiccup doesn't do anything with bindings, except for adding an optional common prefix onto relative URIs.
20:54	meredydd	Okay...so why is it complaining that hiccup.compiler/render-html is unbound?
20:55	weavejester	Well, that would imply that the hiccup.compiler namespace was never loaded.
20:55	meredydd	(but only when I call it from the thread that's servicing the web request - if I spawn a new thread to make the call, it works fine)
20:55	meredydd	Is it not loaded automatically by hiccup.core?
20:55	weavejester	It is.
20:56	weavejester	So… I'm not certain what could be unbinding it. Or making hiccup.core forget. Certainly I've never had any problems like it.
20:56	meredydd	ugh
20:56	meredydd	It's a very temporary and (thread-)local form of forgetting, as well.
20:56	weavejester	Could you reproduce the behaviour in a small project?
20:57	meredydd	Working on it.
20:57	weavejester	Okay, let me know what you find...
20:57	weavejester	Expanding the html macro might also shed some light on the issue.
21:00	meredydd	and just like that, it's started working again, with my original code.
21:01	meredydd	(And I had already started with a fresh VM in an attempt to avoid this problem. Humph.)
21:02	meredydd	I'll get back to you if it starts again and I can narrow it down at all, weavejester.
21:27	wmealing	meredydd, i try to run all my testing in jenkins
21:27	wmealing	allows me to know if i'm doing something stupid
21:49	Cheiron	Hi, any ideas what is wrong with code: http://pastie.org/4453058
21:50	Cheiron	I'm getting ClassCastException java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Associative clojure.lang.RT.assoc
21:54	xeqi	Cheiron: after line 3 what do you think the atom looks like?
21:58	Cheiron	xeqi: sorry unable to figure it out
21:58	xeqi	&(let [accumulator (atom {})] (swap! accumulator #(update-in % [:p1 :p2 :p3] (fnil + 0) 1)) @accumulator)
21:58	lazybot	⇒ {:p1 {:p2 {:p3 1}}}
22:00	Cheiron	yes but why second swap! isn't working? i guess
22:01	xeqi	(get-in {:p1 {:p2 {:p3 1}}} [:p1 :p2 :p3])
22:01	xeqi	&(get-in {:p1 {:p2 {:p3 1}}} [:p1 :p2 :p3])
22:01	lazybot	⇒ 1
22:01	xeqi	&(get-in {:p1 {:p2 {:p3 1}}} [:p1 :p2 :p3 :p4])
22:01	lazybot	⇒ nil
22:02	Cheiron	sorry but still not following why i'm getting classcastexception
22:02	xeqi	&(update-in {:p1 {:p2 {:p3 1}}} [:p1 :p2 :p3 :p4] identity)
22:02	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Associative
22:02	xeqi	there we go
22:02	xeqi	had to figure out which part it was
22:02	xeqi	expected the get to fail
22:02	amalloy	it's the assoc
22:03	amalloy	&(get 1 :foo) works fine
22:03	lazybot	⇒ nil
22:03	amalloy	as an aside: you can guess that from the stacktrace, since get uses ILookup, and assoc uses Associative
22:05	Cheiron	i appreciate your time guys but still unable to figure out why i'm getting the exception :'\|
22:05	xeqi	it is trying to (assoc 1 :p4 1) in your second line
22:05	xeqi	since the value for the :p3 key is 1
22:05	xeqi	second swap! / line 4
22:07	xeqi	basically, line 3 sets the value of :p3 to 1; line 4 expects the value of :p3 to be a map so it can place :p4 1 in it
22:08	Cheiron	but according to update-in
22:08	Cheiron	'Updates' a value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a
22:08	Cheiron	sequence of keys and f is a function that will take the old value
22:08	Cheiron	and any supplied args and return the new value, and returns a new
22:08	Cheiron	nested structure. If any levels do not exist, hash-maps will be
22:08	Cheiron	created.
22:09	metellus	the :p3 level does exist, it's just not a map
22:10	Cheiron	i started to see
22:10	metellus	(or the :p4 level, depending how you look at it)
22:13	alpheus``	where do I find what used to be clojure.contrib.repl-utils?
22:15	xeqi	~contrib
22:15	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
22:17	alpheus``	thanks. last time I used clojure it was 1.2 so 1.4 seems different. really nice, though!
22:17	alpheus``	lein2 is pretty fancy
22:19	duck1123	If I have a fn like (fn [a b & {:as opts}] ...) how do I call that fn if I have the opts in a map? 'apply' doesn't do the trick
22:20	jkkramer	~mapply
22:20	clojurebot	You could (defn mapply [f & args] (apply f (apply concat (butlast args) (last args))))
22:21	Cheiron	I'm running this (dotimes [n 300] (harness))
22:21	duck1123	that's annoying. route-one needs to not use [& {:as opts}]
22:21	Cheiron	with jvisualvm, update_in.doInvoke is called 3600 times. why?
22:22	Cheiron	harness is calling update-in three times, and dotimes repeat harness function 300 times
22:23	Cheiron	why update-in.doInvoke is called 3600?
22:24	jkkramer	Cheiron: update-in is defined recursively
22:26	Cheiron	so every update-in call is issuing four times update-in?
22:27	xeqi	once per key
22:28	Cheiron	is this efficient in my case? am i misusing it?
22:29	Cheiron	should i care about the fact that it is called 3600 times?
22:29	jkkramer	Cheiron: what are the speed and memory requirements of your program?
22:30	Cheiron	it will run on a server machine
22:30	Cheiron	jvisualvm says update-in.doInvoke self time is 16.6 ms
22:30	jkkramer	that's pretty vague
22:30	jkkramer	I'm guessing you don't need to worry about it
22:31	Cheiron	I know but still don't know what our server specs is going to be
22:32	xeqi	thats like asking how much concrete to use in a bridge, but not knowing the weight requirement or strength of the concrete
22:32	Cheiron	very true :)
22:33	xeqi	my instinct is to say the time in update-in will be dwarfed by something else
22:34	Cheiron_	what I'm trying to do is collecting analytics data. what I'm trying to do is to use an atom that refers to a map. the map will be consisting of many other nested maps
22:34	Cheiron_	to save memory, since clojure maps are immutable, do you suggest to use a persistent map?
22:35	Cheiron_	sorry, transient map i mean
22:36	Cheiron_	hmm, guess it wont work since update-in is going to create immutable maps
22:39	Cheiron	while profiling with jvisualvm. i noticed Cons instances are the most created objects. why? afaik, clojure doesn't depend on Cons concepts as other lisps
22:42	cemerick	FYI: Piggieback allows you to run a ClojureScript REPL over any nREPL session—for Leiningen, nrepl.el, Counterclockwise, &c https://github.com/cemerick/piggieback
22:42	cemerick	It's still a bit rough in getting it set up, but it works well AFAICT.
22:46	Cr8	cemerick: just saw the tweet, what's the easist way to get on to lein latest git?
22:48	cemerick	Cr8: clone from https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen, read https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen#building. You'll be off in ~2 minutes.
22:49	cemerick	I hear a new preview release will be out shortly, in which case you can just `lein upgrade`, and use piggieback reasonably easily.
22:49	cemerick	The top priority is getting rid of that horrible :nrepl-handler business.
22:50	cemerick	ideally, just adding piggieback as a Leiningen hook will do, if you're using it primarily. Being able to easily drop in new nREPL middlewares for your app-side REPL servers will become a ton easier shortly as well.
23:00	xeqi	cemerick: is this a rhino backed cljsrepl?
23:00	cemerick	Cr8: oh, yeah; sorry. That'll be waiting on the next sync.
23:01	cemerick	Cr8: you can add https://oss.sonatype.org/content/repositories/releases/ as a repository if you're impatient :-)
23:01	cemerick	xeqi: By default, yes.
23:02	cemerick	I don't suppose I'll ever use anything else (at least until nashorn comes around?!), but I'll be happy to take a patch adding V8 support or whatever.
23:02	xeqi	heh, I had my hopes up for a second for a browser based repl
23:03	cemerick	oh, over nREPL, you mean?
23:03	xeqi	and was trying to imagine how that would look
23:04	xeqi	.. yes? one that I can get all the nice nrepl.el interaction with
23:04	xeqi	I don't know enough to say if thats a new nrepl server or middleware or what
23:05	cemerick	all in good time ;-)
23:05	cemerick	There's a bunch of different approaches that could be taken.
23:08	cemerick	There's actually one radical approach that I think might beat 'em all, though I'm not certain yet: an applet running an nREPL server + piggieback.
23:08	xeqi	I'm sure its more complicated then swtiching rhino/repl-env with browser/repl-env
23:09	cemerick	browser/repl-env may be just fine. Like I said, I'm a noob. :-)
23:11	cemerick	wow: both rhino.clj and browser.clj extend IJavaScriptEnv to IPersistentMap
23:15	alpheus	what's a good way to use the unix mkdir system call? I need the atomicity.
23:30	alpheus	I'd like to use clojure.java.io/make-parents and be assured of failure if the path existed without any race conditions in the face of other processes doing the same thing.
23:43	uvtc	alpheus: Looks like [fs](https://clojars.org/fs) has a mkdir function.
23:44	xeqi	cemerick: does piggyback go in :dependencies or :plugins to be used as nrepl middleware?
23:51	xeqi	has to be :dependencies .. that seems strange