#clojure – 2012-08-08

2012-08-08

00:34	jamii	https://gist.github.com/57121318932f61a10b2b <- trying to explain these causal ordering clearly, would be very much obliged if anyone could try reading it
00:42	amalloy	well, i want to set the emoticons on fire and i don't care for the use of code blocks to delimit things which are not code. but the article is thought-provoking. is it really true that on a single machine causal ordering is exactly the same as time ordering? it seems like all kinds of asynchrony/concurrency problems still exist
00:44	amalloy	and we hand-wave them away by making the cpu and/or memory synchronize (ie, wait) every so often. which would have the same CAP problems if, say, one cpu caught fire and the others were fine
00:45	amalloy	jamii: ^
00:47	jamii	amalloy: yes, I suppose rather than machines it would be more correct to talk about synchronous threads of execution
00:47	jamii	I didn't want to complicate it too much though
00:48	jamii	The code blocks are a translation artefact. In the original formatting they're nice little bold boxes
00:50	akhudek	clojurescript optimizations past whitespace don't work with goog.base :-(
00:50	jamii	amalloy: I think I'll mention your point as an aside near the bit about memory barriers
00:50	akhudek	seems the closure compiler literally looks for 'this' as the first argument
00:51	amalloy	i don't see anything about memory barriers?
00:52	jamii	'Even your hardware cannot escape this law' links to the wikipedia article on memory barriers
00:57	akhudek	I guess js* is the only way to insert a literal "this", right?
00:57	akhudek	And that is supposed to be a compiler detail?
00:57	jamii	amalloy: thanks. later :)
01:20	muhoo	heh, this made me think of feynman diagrams for some reason: https://gist.github.com/57121318932f61a10b2
02:42	antifuchs	so, which non-slime way of using clojure comfortably with emacs is there? (Or is there a swank-clojure that can cope with the quicklisp slime release cycle?)
02:42	antifuchs	I apparently can't not use quicklisp slime; alllll my emacsing depends on slime-selector.
02:46	antifuchs	or should I just admit defeat and use eclipse + counterclockwise?
02:47	antifuchs	feels just wrong to me not writing lisp in emacs ):
02:50	hoeck1	antifuchs: have you tried nrepl.el (https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el)?
02:50	antifuchs	ah, that was it.
02:51	antifuchs	ooh, it does go-to-definition. nice nice
02:51	hoeck1	I tried it when it was a couple of weeks old and it somehow worked for me, I'm mostly using C-xC-e and C-M-x
02:51	antifuchs	yeah, I feel like I'm flying blind without M-. / M-,
02:52	hoeck1	antifuchs: does that work when you edit files without reloading them?
02:53	antifuchs	I don't know! let's find out (:
02:53	hoeck1	I'm using this alot in indexed python and C code (by using etags)
02:54	antifuchs	ah, heh. M-. seems to consult the running clojure image for definition locations
02:54	antifuchs	which is the way it should be[™] (-:
02:55	antifuchs	oh my, this is working mostly. nice.
02:55	hoeck1	right, but if you C-x C-e a clojure expression in a file, and then change its definition or remove it or change its position in the file, the clojure metadata still contains the its old position
02:55	antifuchs	I know I'm going to miss the slime debugger, but hey, at least I don't have to switch to the terminal and back all the time
02:56	antifuchs	oh, is that so? ):
02:56	antifuchs	why is that?
02:57	hoeck1	when you load a file, clojure adds file and line debug information to the bytecode, and stores :line and :file in the metadata, find-definition then uses that data to open said file and jump to line
02:58	hoeck1	but if you have changed after you loaded it ... :/
02:58	antifuchs	ughhh
02:58	antifuchs	well, that's not a thing ):
02:58	hoeck1	though, it works when you do (require ... :reload)
02:58	antifuchs	so backtraces will be wrong if I make substantial changes to any file?
02:58	antifuchs	ah, hm.
02:59	antifuchs	so, C-c C-k on the file will fix this?
02:59	hoeck1	yes
02:59	antifuchs	ah, that's ok then. thanks (:
03:00	hoeck1	or a more sophisticated find-definition
03:01	antifuchs	that would probably work, too ((:
03:02	antifuchs	well, the thing I'd really like is a swank-clojure that can cope with a recent slime. but it seems I'm not going to get that, except by taking over either slime development, swank-clojure development, or both
03:02	antifuchs	or maintaining a fork of either, which will be despised by both projects. not what I'd like to spend time on (:
03:08	amalloy	antifuchs: nobody will mind if you take over swank-clojure
03:08	antifuchs	hah
03:08	antifuchs	I wish I had the time ):
03:08	amalloy	nrepl.el is the future, but if you're dedicated to slime technomancy will let you take it off his hands with a sigh of relief; he recently gave it the official Deprecated rubber-stamp, i think
03:09	antifuchs	this work related project is already happening in my spare time; if I have to take over another project to get actual work done… /-:
03:09	antifuchs	ah well, ok then
03:09	xeqi	his next blog post will stamp it
03:09	antifuchs	I'm just very very sad that this is the state of things
03:09	amalloy	blame slime
03:09	antifuchs	oh, I am
03:09	amalloy	haha k
03:09	antifuchs	I've been blaming it for the last 5 years (;
03:10	antifuchs	well, maybe not that long
03:11	amalloy	i read something recently arguing that ;) is a decent winky face, but (; looks more like you've had a stroke
03:11	antifuchs	haha
03:12	amalloy	down with backwards smilies!
03:12	antifuchs	I shall subscript future parens & colons
03:13	amalloy	hah, i had to squint at that for a while before i got it
04:16	muhoo	there has to be a cleaner way to do this https://www.refheap.com/paste/4168
04:19	mduerksen	muhoo: have a look at select-keys
04:47	muhoo	nice, (set! clojure.core/print-level 15) works perfectly in nrepl
05:30	TEttinger	what can I do about the long startup time I sometimes get with lein repl? I am using seesaw, which depends on stuartsierra's repo and one of his libs as a dev-dependency, and it just takes a long time to figure out, no, clojure is not supplied by that repo...
05:32	TEttinger	it isn't exactly an error log, but this takes between 30 seconds and a minute to output, I think http://pastebin.com/pzVAAtYG
05:37	TEttinger	ok, that time it only took 15 seconds, but occasionally it hangs and I need to Ctrl-D to stop it
05:55	kral	hola
06:04	antares_	TEttinger: long story short, tools/libraries leiningen uses under the hood iterate over repositories in a very simplistic manner. Why that repository takes so long to respond, I don't know.
06:04	otfrom	morning
06:04	antares_	TEttinger: there is an issue for that in the leiningen tracker but chances are, there is no solution in sight even for leiningen 2
06:04	ejackson	morning
06:10	TEttinger	antares_, can I tell it to avoid auto-refreshing that repo?
06:10	antares_	TEttinger: you can probably set :update to :never, not sure if :never is supported
06:12	antares_	TEttinger: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L143-154
06:18	TEttinger	:update :daily doesn't seem to do anything
06:18	TEttinger	even globally in my project.clj
06:21	antares_	TEttinger: it may be applicable only to snapshot repositories, I'd need to check maven documentation for that
06:22	antares_	TEttinger: bug the person who maintains the slow repository, ask him to make releases to clojars
06:22	TEttinger	not sure which repo it is
06:22	TEttinger	the one it can't find is clojure
06:22	antares_	TEttinger: clojure is an artifact, not the repo
06:23	TEttinger	Could not find artifact org.clojure:clojure:pom:1.+ in ...
06:23	antares_	TEttinger: can you gist the output?
06:23	TEttinger	http://pastebin.com/pzVAAtYG
06:23	antares_	TEttinger: it will iterate over all repositories until the artifact is found
06:23	antares_	but if one repo is being slow, it should not be hard to notice
06:24	antares_	TEttinger: what does your project.clj look like?
06:24	TEttinger	http://pastebin.com/vywaSSda
06:24	antares_	org.clojure:clojure:pom:1.+ is a little unusual
06:24	TEttinger	it could be lein-eclipse
06:25	TEttinger	https://github.com/abrenk/lein-eclipse/blob/master/project.clj
06:26	antares_	TEttinger: no, what is in your project.clj?
06:27	TEttinger	http://pastebin.com/vywaSSda is my project.clj
06:27	antares_	lein-eclipse depends on a specific version until it is explicitly given, that's not a version range
06:27	clgv	TEttinger: you dont need lein-eclipse anyway. just use CCW with it's leiningen integration
06:27	TEttinger	CCW has lein integration now?
06:27	clgv	yes
06:28	clgv	it is shipped since 0.9.0
06:28	antares_	TEttinger: ok, you don't use version ranges either, that's good
06:31	TEttinger	it appears I am up-to-date
06:32	TEttinger	what do I need to do to change a clojure project to a leiningen project?
06:32	TEttinger	in CCW clgv
06:35	clgv	TEttinger: just right-click the project and choose "convert to leiningen project"
06:35	TEttinger	I will try that
06:36	clgv	TEttinger: to be precise: "configure" -> "convert to leiningen project"
07:10	leafw	is it just me, or clojure's stack traces when using monads are not useful at all?
07:11	leafw	the last line referenced is the domonad so-and-so line
07:11	leafw	that with clj 1.4.0
08:27	TEttinger	ugh, this is a weird error... http://pastebin.com/smYDasn9 is the relevant portion of my code, http://pastebin.com/dzfiYXBx is the error log I get
08:28	TEttinger	it seems like a seesaw GUI function is getting called before the needed components exist -- but the function should only be called when there is user input
08:32	edoloughlin	Is contrib/server-socket dead?
08:34	ohpauleez	edoloughlin: I don't think it's part of the new contrib: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
08:35	cmiles74	That's right, it's not in the new contrib libs.
08:35	ckirkendall	ro_st: you there
08:37	cmiles74	edoloughlin: technomancy has a fork with just that code in it; https://clojars.org/server-socket
08:37	ro_st	ckirkendall: i am, i pm'd you
08:38	edoloughlin	cmiles74: Thanks.
08:39	TEttinger	ok, I can't stay up any longer (5:37 AM here). I guess I will ask again tomorrow
08:39	edoloughlin	Is there a canonical way to implement a multithreaded server (for an audio chat app, multiple rooms, each with multiple clients connected)? The answer to this seems promising: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9575483 - any thoughts?
08:40	ro_st	isn't that what aleph is about?
08:40	ro_st	https://github.com/ztellman/aleph/
08:41	edoloughlin	ro_st: On an initial look, it seemed too asynchronous (i.e., message-passing) and more suited to HTTP. Is is performant enough to shlep audio frames around?
08:42	ro_st	i've no idea. i'm merely parroting :-)
08:42	ohpauleez	edlothiol: aleph, java interop with socket server, or another Java lib that fits the bill for your app would work.
08:42	ohpauleez	it really depends on the design constraints
08:43	edoloughlin	Ok. I'll give it another look. Just don't want to commit to something that won't work out...
08:43	ohpauleez	edoloughlin: Then I'd look to see if there's a well supported and documented Java library that fits your use case
08:44	ohpauleez	and spend the effort wrapping interop (where needed) than building from the ground up
08:45	edoloughlin	Seems sensible. The answer to http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9575483 seems nice and Cloure-y though...
08:45	ohpauleez	I'd also build a prototype with aleph - the latest changes have made it very very fast
08:45	edoloughlin	ohpauleez: I'm sold. I'll give it a look.
08:45	edoloughlin	Thanks.
08:47	jsabeaudry	ohpauleez, Oh that is very good news, last time I tried it (approx 5 months ago) it was awfully slow because of a bug in Netty, I'll give it a spin again when I get a chance
08:47	ohpauleez	edoloughlin: That's a bad answer in my opinion - it's showing a misunderstanding of the guarantees of agents. An atom would be better with processing done with futures on tuned thread pool
08:49	edoloughlin	I see. My experience of agents is limited to reading the docs!
08:49	ohpauleez	gotcha, yeah - look through some Java libs/packages and take a look at aleph
09:09	alcy	folks, am trying to use riemann, a monitoring tool written in clojure. am trying to debug it, but not sure whats the correct way. http://aphyr.github.com/riemann/api/riemann.logging.html
09:10	alcy	^ describes the logging api
09:10	alcy	this is how i've described them in its config
09:10	alcy	(logging/init :file "riemann.log")
09:10	alcy	(logging/set-level "riemann.client" Level/DEBUG)
09:11	alcy	but I get this java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: Level, compiling:(null:4)
09:12	alcy	any suggestions what could be wrong ?
09:17	hoeck1	alcy: you need to import the Level class
09:18	hoeck1	alcy: which is probably one from log4j: http://logging.apache.org/log4j/1.2/apidocs/org/apache/log4j/Level.html
09:18	alcy	hoeck1: that particular tool does import the class https://github.com/aphyr/riemann/blob/master/src/riemann/logging.clj
09:20	hoeck1	alcy: maybe importing the class in the config file works, using: (import '(org.apache.log4j Level))
09:22	hoeck1	alcy: or using its full name, in case the config is evaluated with the class loaded already: (logging/set-level "riemann.client" org.apache.log4j.Level/DEBUG)
09:25	alcy	hoeck1: thanks, that kinda seems to work, no errors - although I dont actually get any debug msgs :(
09:26	alcy	hoeck1: do you know if its possible to set the root logger to debug ?
09:32	drostie	';'L;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;..............................................................;......................////L;;;;;;;;;;;;;..................;;;;;;;;;;;.....................;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;.........................
09:32	drostie	PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPIIILLL
09:33	AWizzArd	Excellent, very good.
09:35	drostie	er, sorry.
09:35	ro_st	i see your cat found the keyboard
09:41	michaelr525	hello
09:41	drewr	oh herro michaelr525
09:42	michaelr525	anyone knows what's the part after the + is called in this timestamp: "2012-08-05T13:41:08+0000"
09:42	htr	michaelr525: tz offset ?
09:43	michaelr525	htr: probably you are right..
09:43	michaelr525	why 4 digits?
09:43	hoeck1	alcy: no, never used log4j for myself, from looking at the api, you can get the root logger with (org.apache.log4j/getRootLogger)
09:43	michaelr525	do you know which format should I use to parse it with clj-time?
09:43	htr	michaelr525: HHMM iirc
09:44	htr	michaelr525: I've no idea
09:44	hoeck1	alcy: maybe that works, there is also Level/ALL
09:44	michaelr525	hhh
09:45	alcy	tarting to (again) play with riemann !
09:46	alcy	oops. bad paste
09:46	alcy	hoeck1: thanks, will give that a try
09:47	bhenry	sqlkorma users… am i using the order function correctly for multiple order by's? this doesn't make sense to me. https://gist.github.com/44e29ca0118cc3910b08
09:54	bhenry	ping ibdknox
09:54	ro_st	what about multiple (order) clauses?
09:55	bhenry	yeah. i just tried a sql-only on it and it only puts in one.
09:55	bhenry	i'll try the multiple and see what happens.
09:56	wmealing	would someone be kind enough to tell me exactly what kind of an error this is ? http://hastebin.com/
09:56	bhenry	ro_st: looks like that should do it. thanks.
09:56	wmealing	i dont know java, but.. i'm not using that class and nor is it referenced anywhere i can see in my files
09:57	ro_st	wmealing: i think you pasted the wrong url
09:57	ludston	wmealing: Could you give us a real link?
09:57	wmealing	ah damnit, sorry
09:57	wmealing	http://hastebin.com/sijisagovo.coffee
09:59	ludston	It looks like the library you're using has some java dependency that you haven't got anywhere
09:59	wmealing	zug ok
10:00	wmealing	this is fedora, and openjdk-1.7.0.3
10:00	wmealing	probably some internal, unimplemented class
10:01	ludston	http://www.jarfinder.com/index.php/java/info/com.sun.tools.xjc.Options
10:02	wmealing	i'm not sure if its "legal" to just download those jars and chuck them in my runtime, is it ?
10:02	ludston	Looks like it's from an oracle XML library. If you google "jaxb" you ought to find a more legit looking/licenced download
10:03	wmealing	ok
10:18	rplevy	trying to figure out a good way to accomplish the inverse of a line-seq, i.e. a Java stream interface surrounding a lazily evaluating seq.
10:29	llasram	rplevy: `proxy` the appropriate class, use an atom to hold the seq evaluation state ?
10:39	xeqi	wmealing: it looks like the knowledge api has a bunch of dependencies listed as "provided" - http://search.maven.org/remotecontent?filepath=org/drools/knowledge-api/5.4.0.Final/knowledge-api-5.4.0.Final.pom
10:39	xeqi	so you've got to track them down yourself
10:40	xeqi	http://search.maven.org/#search\|gav\|1\|g%3A%22com.sun.xml.bind%22%20AND%20a%3A%22jaxb-xjc%22 might be the one currently giving problems
10:41	rplevy	llasram: interesting idea, thanks
11:35	jst23	are there any particularly obvious things to refactor in this: https://gist.github.com/3295977
11:36	jst23	in particular, is there a better name for what i'm doing with make-coll (that has to be somewhat common, right?)? Also, I guess I could come up with some ways to remove the repetive doseqs, but not any ways that really add any clarity
11:40	djcoin	jst23: i'm a complete noob at clojure (for now ! :)). Just for curiosity, what are you coding ? A drag&drop in clojure script ?
11:40	jst23	djcoin: yup exactly. just a small layer on top of the google closure DragDrop stuff
11:41	mdeboard	jst23: I'd just refactor that into three separate, smaller functions
11:45	jst23	mdeboard: hmmm.. I'm having trouble figure out what three things I should break out. one for the addDragDropItem doseqs, maybe one for the add listener doseqs, what else?
11:49	clgv	I get an ArrayOutOfBoundException when using pallet's lift. it seems that something in the ssh session might be wrong specified. any ideas on that?
11:52	mdeboard	jst23: That was about it
11:58	arkh	when changing namespaces at a repl via (in-ns …) is it normal in 1.4 for (doc …) to not work? Is it because (doc) was moved to clojure.repl/ ?
11:58	arkh	maybe it was always there and I didn't notice ...
11:58	acheng	doc was moved
11:59	arkh	ok - thank you
11:59	acheng	(or, i remember being told doc was moved. my earlier statement makes it sound like i know more about the move than i do :-P)
12:01	arkh	I thought I remember it being in clojure.core shrug
12:02	acheng	I think you're right, fwiw
12:08	tos9	Is Criterium still the thing people use for timing small snippets?
12:08	nDuff	tos9: How seriously? I mean, there _is_ the time macro
12:09	tos9	nDuff: Not seriously, they're dumb microbenchmarks for curiosity's sake.
12:09	tos9	I'll check out time.
12:10	nDuff	tos9: It's built into clojure.core; just (time (+ 2 2))
12:11	hugod	clgv: what are you trying to do with lift?
12:11	tos9	nDuff: Yeah, just saw it, I misread the docs as time-to-array so I didn't notice it :P
12:12	clgv	hugod: just the simple ls example with a node-list
12:14	hugod	clgv: if you gist what you are using, I can have a look...
12:14	clgv	hugod: on localhost with username and password it works but not on a remote machine (with username and password)
12:14	clgv	hugod: ok I'll do
12:16	clgv	hugod: that's it https://www.refheap.com/paste/4176
12:17	hugod	clgv: and a stacktrace if you could...
12:19	hugod	also, which version of pallet?
12:20	clgv	hugod: pallet version 0.7.1 - stacktrace: https://www.refheap.com/paste/4178
12:23	hugod	just to be clear, you are trying to ssh with password rather than using a key?
12:24	clgv	hugod: I did that as fallback since I got the same error with keys
12:25	hugod	clgv: using keys is the default, so may be simpler to debug - you can ssh to the box using your ~/.ssh/id_rsa key?
12:25	clgv	hugod: yes, I can.
12:26	hugod	if you're on osx you could try adding your key to the ssh agent with 'ssh-add -k your-key-file'
12:27	clgv	hugod: same error and stacktrace (leaf cause) with the keys
12:28	clgv	hugod: I am on Ubuntu (Linux MINT) and connecting to ubuntu
12:29	hugod	clgv: is there an ssh-agent running?
12:29	clgv	hugod: ok, after adding the key via "ssh-add" on console it now works
12:30	clgv	hugod: so what do I need to change to do this from clojure with pallet?
12:31	hugod	not sure the options are the same on ubuntu, but you may be able to permanently add your key to the agent with ssh-add -K your-key-file
12:32	hugod	the cause of this is a switch to using the ssh-agent in 0.7.1 - unfortunately there is no support in jsch (the underlying ssh lib) for adding keys to an agent programmatically yet
12:33	hugod	I have an issue open for that
12:33	clgv	:(
12:33	lotia-away	greetings all. anyone have a link or reference to a base .gitignore for lein2 projects?
12:33	clgv	hugod: so why are there options to specify key-paths at all?
12:35	lotia	should the target directory be excluded?
12:35	hugod	clgv: prior to 0.7.1 we weren't using the system ssh-agent, so we could just specify the keys - which works well except for passphrases
12:35	hugod	clgv: they are still used by the automated-admin-user crate, to authorise your key on remote nodes
12:36	clgv	hugod: uhh then I used 0.7.0 a couple of weeks ago. there keys were working
12:37	technomancy	lotia: just do `lein new sample; cat sample/.gitignore`
12:38	hugod	clgv: I didn't realise people didn't use system ssh-agents in general - keys without passphrases aren't very secure
12:41	clgv	hugod: the problem is that I have some private nodes A-D that are only accessible through a node X. hence I would need something to be able to deploy to those nodes through X
12:41	TEttinger	ugh, this is a weird error... http://pastebin.com/smYDasn9 is the relevant portion of my code, http://pastebin.com/dzfiYXBx is the error log I get
12:41	TEttinger	it seems like a seesaw GUI function is getting called before the needed components exist -- but the function should only be called when there is user input
12:41	lotia	technomancy: thanks
12:43	hugod	clgv: one way would be to use ssh port forwarding, and specify the gateway IP and forwarded ports in the node-list
12:44	clgv	hugod: I have no idea how to do that via pallet. can you give an example?
12:49	hugod	clgv: on your gateway box, ssh -L 8022:A:22, then port 8022 on your gateway IP can be used to access machine A
12:59	emezeske	t
12:59	clgv	hugod: is 'with-ssh-tunnel doing the job?
13:08	rbxbx	raph_amiard re: clojurescript-lua article
13:08	rbxbx	I'm guessing the line
13:08	rbxbx	a table is used to store the function, and the __call metamethod is used to _travesty_ the table as a regular function, so that the call mechanism is unified.
13:08	rbxbx	should say "is used to _traverse_ the table".
13:08	rbxbx	It does make for an amusing typo though :)
13:08	hugod	clgv: you can use with-ssh-tunnel from with a pallet crate function, and then run another lift/converge over that port, but that's probably a little trickier to get right. Sounds like we should provide first class support for this for pallet - an issue would be welcome https://github.com/pallet/pallet/issues
13:15	clgv	hugod: what would you add as info to the ticket? I can only come up with one sentence now
13:16	tos9	How do I do arithmetic with BigInts in a cross-interpreter compatible way? Python ints are all BigInts, so clojure-py is happy with just taking (+ big stuff), but clj wants (+' big stuff), but clojure-py doesn't seem to support the latter
13:17	tos9	Or perhaps it's just not in the default namespace, perhaps I need to find out where it's generally found.
13:19	tos9	mdeboard: I don't, and can never imagine needing, java interop.
13:19	mdeboard	tos9: So, just a syntax choice then?
13:19	tos9	mdeboard: Well, I haven't used python interop either, although IIUC the syntax for accessing the host language is more or less the same?
13:20	clgv	hugod: https://github.com/pallet/pallet/issues/155
13:20	mdeboard	tos9: I wonder about performance losses though
13:20	tos9	mdeboard: Also, besides ^, I probably wouldn't ever contribute to the JVM implementation, but could imagine contributing if the interpreter were written in Python.
13:20	nDuff	...I mean, I really, _really_ love Python-the-language
13:21	nDuff	but the GIL strikes me as making it a bad choice of targets
13:21	uvtc	Did clojars just recently begin listing dependencies?
13:21	technomancy	uvtc: yeah, new feature
13:21	hugod	clgv: thanks - btw we have a #pallet too...
13:21	tos9	mdeboard: mmm. I'm sure benchmarks are out there somewhere, but a PyPy-generated JIT would beat the JVM's without stuff like type hinting or whatever I'd bet
13:22	SegFaultAX\|work2	nDuff: I'd like to coin a new argument strategy with regards to Python: Reductio ad GILium.
13:22	mdeboard	tos9: Oh I mean between a clj-py implementation and a python implementation
13:22	SegFaultAX\|work2	nDuff: Every argument about Python will eventually lead to "the GIL man, the GIL"
13:22	tos9	Not that I've written anything performance critical yet.
13:23	mdeboard	SegFaultAX\|work2: Agreed :P
13:23	technomancy	nDuff: I don't imagine it'll ever beat the JVM at what the JVM is good at, but there are plenty of things the JVM sucks at
13:23	nDuff	SegFaultAX: For a language where having good constructs for supporting in-process parallelism is one of the draws, it strikes me as more pertinent than usual.
13:24	hiredman	tos9: I doubt it
13:24	tos9	Anyways -- didn't the landscape survey of clojure just recently come out and mention clojure-py as being quite popular :)?
13:24	SegFaultAX\|work2	nDuff: There are lots of interesting features that Python lacks. Threading support is hardly at the top of /my/ list.
13:24	mdeboard	nDuff: I think with clojure-py -- and believe me, I am definitely more inclined to your opinion -- the draw is higher levels of abstraction
13:25	SegFaultAX\|work2	mdeboard: Or the fact that there are loads of "trivial" language features that Python simply cannot or will not provide.
13:26	mdeboard	SegFaultAX\|work2: Besides real anonymous functions, which are those?
13:26	tos9	hiredman: Well. No sense arguing about it :) I'm sure I can either find one or cook one up. But my first point was more relevant to me.
13:26	tos9	(Er, find or cook up a comparison benchmark)
13:26	SegFaultAX\|work2	mdeboard: I've said this several times in #python, but I find blocks a la Ruby to be absolutely fantastic.
13:27	SegFaultAX\|work2	mdeboard: Note that those aren't exactly the same as anonymous functions.
13:27	technomancy	shame they're not first-class
13:27	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: First class in what way?
13:28	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: IIRC all of Ruby's callables are first class. Blocks, procs, lambdas, etc.
13:28	technomancy	SegFaultAX\|work2: well, in the conventional way they're not first-class in that there's a distinction between blocks, procs, and lambdas. blocks get converted into procs when you try to use them in a first-class manner, but there's still a distinction, which is stupid
13:29	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: The distinction is actually pretty useful. Blocks don't create their own scope (eg they're a child of the scope from which they are evaluated)
13:29	technomancy	but in a more general sense they're not first-class because the primary mechanism for calls in ruby is the method, and you can't carry a method around the same way you can a proc
13:29	technomancy	SegFaultAX\|work2: that's the distinction between procs and lambdas, not blocks. but I strongly disagree that it's useful.
13:30	technomancy	anyway, if you end up trying to use blocks in a real first-class way it's sort of possible, but it's extremely un-idiomatic
13:31	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: I'm still not entirely clear on what you mean by "real first-class". Is it the fact that they are converted to procs when passed that makes them not first class?
13:32	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: Maybe you could cook up some pseudocode?
13:33	SegFaultAX\|work2	But anyway, having a syntactic construct for anonymous code blocks is really handy I find.
13:33	uvtc	technomancy: thanks. Just submitted a small pull-request.
13:34	uvtc	technomancy: It's more of a feature-request though. :)
13:35	technomancy	SegFaultAX\|work2: right; blocks are just unboxed procs. they mostly behave the same way, but it's a unnecessary distinction
13:36	technomancy	I guess my complaint revolves more around how methods aren't flexible enough
13:36	technomancy	there's such a huge gap between methods and procs
13:36	tos9	If I may bring things back to my original question, does anyone happen to know of a solution :)?
13:36	technomancy	you can't partially apply them and pass them around cleanly
13:38	mdeboard	13:14 <tos9> How do I do arithmetic with BigInts in a cross-interpreter compatible way? Python ints are all BigInts, so clojure-py is happy with just taking (+ big stuff), but clj wants (+' big stuff), but clojure-py doesn't seem to support the latter
13:38	mdeboard	Since I started this cosmic derail figured I might as well repose the original question.
13:39	clgv	hugod: ssh tunnels set up. thx for that hint :)
13:39	mdeboard	repost*
13:39	tos9	I suppose I can do something like (resolve '+') or whatever and then define it to be + -- I guess that'd work?
13:40	hiredman	you'll kill performance that way
13:41	tos9	Hm, why's that?
13:41	tos9	mdeboard: Thanks :)
13:42	hiredman	breaks inlining (which breaks intrinsics, not that I think +' has an intrinsic)
13:45	clgv	$findfn {:a 10 :b 20} [:a 10 :b 20]
13:45	lazybot	[]
13:45	clgv	that will do ##(->> {:a 10 :b 20} seq flatten)
13:45	lazybot	⇒ (:a 10 :b 20)
13:45	clgv	but is there a better built-in way?
13:48	devth_	if i have some unary fn, how do i apply it separately to each item in a collection?
13:48	acheng	map
13:48	acheng	(map fn collection)
13:49	devth_	ah, right. will that force evaluation over a lazy collection?
13:49	acheng	devth_: ^
13:49	acheng	oh
13:49	acheng	(doall ...
13:49	acheng	(doall (map fn coll))
13:49	jsabeaudry	Anyone knows of a lein plugin that will indicate if new versions of dependencies of the project are available?
13:50	devth_	acheng: thanks
13:51	acheng	devth_: :)
13:51	clgv	jsabeaudry: lein-outdated but that doesnt work currently due to changes of the maven repo :/
13:51	jsabeaudry	clgv, oh nice, does it still work with the clojars dependencies?
13:51	tos9	hiredman: Well. I guess being a bit slower in clojure-py is worth it if it means supporting clj then.
13:55	hugod	clgv: (apply concat {:a 10 :b 20})
13:55	clgv	jsabeaudry: nope. since it searches maven first
13:56	clgv	hugod: thats better
13:56	hyPiRion	,(reduce into {:a 10 :b 20})
13:56	clojurebot	[:a 10 :b 20]
14:06	SegFaultAX\|work2	Is the netsplit over?
14:09	alcy	transient :)
14:21	mattmoss	In (foo a (bar x)), (bar x) will be evaluated before (foo a ...), correct? Or does (bar x) get passed into (foo ...) somehow and evaluated as needed?
14:22	ohpauleez	mattmoss: eval'd first
14:22	estebann_	mattmoss: unless foo is a macro
14:23	hyPiRion	If foo is a function, foo will be evaluated first, then a, bar, x, then (bar x), and finally the whole thing
14:23	ohpauleez	that is true
14:24	mattmoss	Well, send is a fun, so there. :)
14:24	mattmoss	Thanks guys...
14:24	hyPiRion	You should try it out sometime
14:24	hyPiRion	Like, hmm
14:24	mattmoss	I was just deliberating between send and send-off, for (send a (fn ...) (long-io-operation))
14:25	hyPiRion	,(let [prn #(do (prn %) %)] ((prn +) (prn 4) (prn ((prn -) (prn 1)))))
14:25	clojurebot	#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@367de0d>
14:25	clojurebot	4
14:25	clojurebot	#<core$_ clojure.core$_@2c67ab37>
14:25	clojurebot	1
14:25	clojurebot	-1
14:25	clojurebot	3
14:25	mattmoss	As opposed to (send a (fn [x (long-io-operation)] ...))
14:25	gfredericks	,(doc send)
14:25	clojurebot	"([a f & args]); Dispatch an action to an agent. Returns the agent immediately. Subsequently, in a thread from a thread pool, the state of the agent will be set to the value of: (apply action-fn state-of-agent args)"
14:26	mattmoss	Where the latter would seem to warrant send-off
14:26	gfredericks	mattmoss: that second syntax isn't valid
14:26	gfredericks	but I guess you just mean to do the io op in the function
14:26	gfredericks	rather than passing it the result
14:27	mattmoss	,(send (agent nil) (fn [_] (+ 1 2)))
14:27	clojurebot	#<Agent@23170428: nil>
14:27	mattmoss	where (+ 1 2) is a long io operation
14:27	mattmoss	lol
14:27	gfredericks	right; send-off sounds like the right thing to do there
14:27	gfredericks	since that's what it's for
14:28	mattmoss	Yeah, I'm just trying to be careful where I do the ops, and know whether I should use send or send-off.
14:29	mattmoss	,@(send (agent nil) (fn [_] (+ 1 2)))
14:29	clojurebot	nil
14:31	mattmoss	Hmm... I could do....
14:31	jsabeaudry	Anyone has a cljs externs file for jqueryui ?
14:31	mattmoss	(send a (let [x (long-io-op)] (fn [_] x)))
14:32	mattmoss	eh, no. now i'm just getting bizzare, nevermind
14:41	mattmoss	,@(send (agent 0) (fn [a] (let [x 5] (+ a x))))
14:41	clojurebot	0
14:41	mattmoss	,@(send (agent 0) (let [x 5] (fn [a] (+ a x))))
14:41	clojurebot	0
14:44	TimMc	You're not giving it time to do anything.
14:45	mattmoss	yeah, i know...
14:45	mattmoss	but in my repl, the one finished faster
14:45	mattmoss	faster -> immediately
14:45	TimMc	Doesn't mean much. Put it through criterium.
14:46	mattmoss	Understand the former. What's the latter?
14:46	TimMc	A benchmarking lib for Clojure. Does all the warmup, gc, statistics, etc.
14:46	mattmoss	Ah, ok. I wasn't actually concerned about the speed.
14:47	mattmoss	It was curious to me that my repl reported 0 for one and 5 for the other.
14:47	TimMc	Just a race condition, yeah?
14:47	mattmoss	Was looking for confirmation that that was just coincidence, unpredictability.
14:47	mattmoss	clojurebot confirmed that for me.
14:47	hyPiRion	,(let [agt (agent 0)] (send agt (fn [a] (let [x 5] (+ a x)))) (await agt) @agt)
14:47	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
14:49	hyPiRion	Oh, while I'm at it: ##(let [a {:a (promise)}] (deliver (:a a) a) a)
14:49	lazybot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
14:49	hyPiRion	meh.
14:49	mattmoss	lol
15:06	melipone	hi! I'm confused on how to include my java classes with leininghen. I see :aoc and :aot and other things and the website does not have info on that
15:07	mdeboard	melipone: What do you mean include them with leiningen? Are you simply trying to import them for use in a Clojure module?
15:07	technomancy	melipone: :aot is unrelated to Java; you probably want :java-source-paths
15:07	mdeboard	Yeah listen to technomancy
15:08	melipone	technomancy: thanks! and it will compile the java sources?
15:08	technomancy	melipone: that's what they tell me.
15:08	technomancy	never used it myself =)
15:08	jsabeaudry	heh
15:08	mdeboard	wut
15:08	melipone	technomancy: I know you did leiningen. What's :aoc?
15:09	technomancy	never heard of it
15:09	technomancy	sounds like a typo
15:09	melipone	what's :aot then?
15:09	gfredericks	Ahead-Of-Time compilation
15:10	gfredericks	for if you need .class files in your jar for one reason or another
15:10	acheng	so, like time-travel
15:10	gfredericks	it compiles before you write the code
15:10	melipone	geez who needs that?
15:10	acheng	people behind on deadlines
15:10	gfredericks	if you want executable jars you need it
15:11	gfredericks	I think if you want to generate java classes to be consumed elsewhere you'll need it
15:11	gfredericks	does it give you a startup boost? I dunno.
15:11	melipone	gfredericks: don't really understand - "to be consumed elsewhere" means
15:12	gfredericks	by a java program e.g.
15:12	gfredericks	I've done that before; there was a framework that wanted me to provide it some classes
15:12	gfredericks	so using AOT meant those classes were really in the jar rather than generated at runtime
15:13	melipone	gfredericks: but which jar?
15:13	gfredericks	the jar generated by `lein jar` or `lein uberjar`
15:13	technomancy	if you don't know you need it, you don't need it =)
15:14	gfredericks	clojure has a lot of those features
15:14	melipone	technomancy: not true. we didn't know we needed electricity
15:14	gfredericks	melipone: I don't think he meant it to apply to all the things
15:16	melipone	gfredericks: okay, I think I understand that the java code is not automatically compiled with doing "lein jar" is that it?
15:16	acheng	zipper question: (-> zipper zip/next (zip/edit assoc :content "foo") zip/root) .... returns something that is not the same type as zipper.... how do i get something of the same type?
15:16	gfredericks	if by "java code" you mean "java bytecode" then yes. it just copies the .clj files into the jar
15:17	melipone	gfredericks: thanks, I see how that could speed up things
15:18	gfredericks	only initially; it'll slow down jarring
15:18	gfredericks	I don't think people use it unless they need it for something concrete
15:19	gfredericks	I think it tends to end up compiling a bunch of deps as well
15:19	melipone	gfredericks: yikes!
15:20	gfredericks	yeah just don't use it if you don't need it
15:21	acheng	hm. even (-> zipper zip/next zip/root) returns something of another type
15:22	TimMc	acheng: A different concrete type, sure.
15:22	TimMc	It still is accepted by all the zipper fns though, right?
15:23	hiredman	zip/root returns the thing, not the zipper, if I recall
15:23	acheng	TimMc: my zipper is a PersistentVector and the result is PersistentStructMap ... ah. i want to feed it to xml->
15:23	amalloy	(inc hiredman)
15:23	lazybot	⇒ 13
15:24	acheng	thanks all. i just need to follow zip/root with zip/xml-zip
15:25	TimMc	Interesting.
15:25	amalloy	or define a "top" function that stays in zipper-land
15:26	mattmoss	,(send (agent "three") inc)
15:26	clojurebot	#<Agent@6d80f813: "three">
15:26	amalloy	(defn top [zipper] (last (take-while identity (iterate zip/up zipper)))), right?
15:27	mattmoss	,(inc "three")
15:27	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
15:27	mattmoss	nevermind
15:28	TimMc	mattmoss: Try this in your REPL vs /msg clojurebot: (let [a (agent 0)] (send a inc) (Thread/sleep 2000) @a)
15:29	TimMc	I guess clojurebot is doing something to the threadpools.
15:29	acheng	amalloy: thanks. (I think in my case I want to go to xml zipper land.)
15:32	mattmoss	TimMC: got it fine...
15:33	estebann_	is there any way to programmatically get what symbols a binding form will bind too?
15:33	clojure-newcomer	hey guys, how do I ensure a let and doseq don't lose a later return value from a function ?
15:34	emezeske	clojure-newcomer: Can you elaborate on what you mean by "lose a later return value"?
15:34	nDuff	clojure-newcomer: It's not clear what you mean by that.
15:34	nDuff	clojure-newcomer: ...by the way, you might consider choosing a nick you can keep even in the future when you're no longer a newcomer. :)
15:34	clojure-newcomer	sorry guys… I'll try to explain a bit better
15:34	clojure-newcomer	nduff: I love Clojure, but feel like I'll always be a newcomer at the moment :-)
15:34	amalloy	estebann_: ##(destructure '[[a b] (range)])
15:34	lazybot	⇒ [vec__68872 (range) a (clojure.core/nth vec__68872 0 nil) b (clojure.core/nth vec__68872 1 nil)]
15:35	estebann_	amalloy: thanks!
15:35	mattmoss	TimMC: thanks for the note, btw. I keep forgetting to await with clojurebot and agents.
15:37	nDuff	clojure-newcomer: ...if you actually want to keep all the results from your doseq (ie. if it's not just for side effects), perhaps what you want instead is (vec (for ...)); by contrast, if you just want to collect one item from within the doseq, that might be a case for set!'ing a dynamic var with a thread-local binding.
15:37	nDuff	clojure-newcomer: ...but those are just two guesses as to what you _might_ be trying to do. :)
15:38	TimMc	amalloy: whoa whoa whoa
15:38	TimMc	Since when is this destructure thing available?
15:38	amalloy	TimMc: 0.x i think
15:39	hiredman	"forever"
15:39	TimMc	dammit, still haven't read through core.clj
15:39	clojurebot	underscores in namespaces is a bad idea
15:39	ohpauleez	said as: "forrrr evvvvv errrrr"
15:39	clojure-newcomer	ok guys… hopefully this paste bin will explain… show what I get to work, and when I fail :-( http://pastebin.com/Pb9LmiYH
15:39	clojure-newcomer	apologies for the formatting...
15:41	emezeske	clojure-newcomer: When you say {:status 204} is not returned... what is returned?
15:41	nDuff	clojure-newcomer: In the future, would you mind not using pastebin.com? It's full of ads, and some of us avoid it.
15:41	clojure-newcomer	nDuff: oh sorry… is there one you guys use ?
15:42	amalloy	~paste
15:42	clojurebot	paste is https://refheap.com/
15:42	nDuff	clojure-newcomer: refheap or gist.github.com are both good.
15:42	clojure-newcomer	emezeske: from my println in the next function in the chain it looks like no return value
15:42	amalloy	i think some scoundrel also remapped ~gist to refheap
15:42	amalloy	~gist
15:42	clojurebot	gist is forget paste
15:42	nDuff	clojure-newcomer: (refheap is written in Clojure, maintained by Raynes, so it has some amount of local favoritism)
15:43	TimMc	clojurebot is Hotel California for factoids
15:43	clojure-newcomer	think I am suffering from eval/laziness or just plain fail
15:43	emezeske	clojure-newcomer: By "no return value" do you mean nil?
15:43	amalloy	TimMc: seriously. i'm doing brain surgery on this factoid now
15:44	amalloy	he has at least half a dozen accidental meanings for gist
15:44	mattmoss	TimMc: What do you think of this? https://gist.github.com/3297977
15:45	amalloy	hiredman: am i getting the forget syntax wrong? i'm PMing "forget gist \|is\| forget ~paste", but he still remembers it
15:45	amalloy	(ie, he remembers that gist is "forget ~paste", which some wacko taught him)
15:48	clojure-newcomer	emezeske: sorry, think I am having a bad day… seems to be working now, guess I am tired… I am definitely still suffering a little from a lack of understanding of eval, laziness and other aspects of the language
15:51	TimMc	mattmoss: I don't know anything about agent restarting.
15:52	mattmoss	Anyone know about using restart-agent within an agent's error handler? https://gist.github.com/3297977
15:52	hiredman	amalloy: that may be an infered fact
15:52	amalloy	oh jeez
15:53	TimMc	hiredman: Any API for getting clojurebot's list of values for a given key?
15:55	hiredman	no
15:56	gfredericks	repeat calls until the probability is < 0.01% that you haven't seen soemthing
15:56	hiredman	at one point I had plans to expose it as a wiki sort of thing, maybe I'll revisit that sometime
15:57	XPherior	Can you use Midje to say something like (fact (+ a b) => 3 (provided a => 1 b => 2)) ?
16:26	emezeske	XPherior: That should be easy to test. I would test it but I'm not at my clojure dev box atm
16:27	emezeske	XPherior: If it doesn't work, you could do (fact (+ (a) (b)) => 3 (provided (a) => 1 (b) => 2))
16:33	estebann	given a function is there a way to get its signature(s) programatically ?
16:35	hyPiRion	estebann: ##(:arlists (meta #'interpose))
16:35	lazybot	⇒ nil
16:35	hyPiRion	##(:arglists (meta #'interpose))
16:35	lazybot	⇒ ([sep coll])
16:35	estebann	hyPiRion: thanks!
16:38	hyPiRion	You're welcome. If you cannot sharp-quote it (#'), then use ##(let [foo map] (-> foo var meta :arglists)) instead :)
16:38	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: foo in this context
16:38	hyPiRion	Well, eh, screw that.
16:40	hyPiRion	Hm, you cannot really work on metadata from a function you e.g. pass in, or are there hacks to get around that?
16:40	estebann	I sure hope so
16:42	raek	no, your program needs to get hold of the var, not the function
16:44	raek	multiple vars can contain the same value (function in this case)
16:44	raek	so "what is the var for this function?" is not well-defined
16:45	estebann	so for my use case I should probably check out the def or defn source to see how that metadata gets set in the firstplace?
16:46	raek	I don't know what your use case is.
16:47	raek	in some cases you can use a macro (for instance, clojure.repl/doc does this)
16:47	estebann	I want to get the arglists for an anonymous function
16:47	hiredman	why?
16:47	clojurebot	why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone
16:48	raek	I'm not sure that's possible, unfortunately
16:48	estebann	i'm trying to be fancy... I'm messing around with symbol resolution for a user-supplied function
16:48	hiredman	that doesn't mean anything
16:48	technomancy	not having reader-provided meta on anonymous fns really sucks
16:49	estebann	user gives me a function, i read it but don't evaluate it
16:49	estebann	i manipulate symbols
16:49	estebann	then evaluate
16:49	hiredman	technomancy: the metadata isn't reader provided
16:50	hiredman	~def defn
16:50	technomancy	yeah, I guess fn* would need to provide it
16:50	technomancy	anyway, it sucks
16:51	technomancy	the :line and :file stuff must come from the reader though
16:57	technomancy	wow, it hurts to look at that def
17:00	estebann	anyway, for what its worth it looks like the private function sigs is where the magic happens
17:31	atoi	so...
17:31	atoi	I've installed Leiningen
17:31	atoi	it ran it's little self install stuff, I think, the first time I ran it.
17:31	atoi	but now I actually want to just run clojure myfile.clj
17:31	atoi	and I still don't have a clojure executable anywhere.
17:32	scriptor	did you set up a project with lein?
17:32	atoi	secondarily...
17:32	atoi	no. oh, lein works kind of like virtualenv for Python then? No I've not set up a project I just want to screw around with like one file.
17:32	hiredman	atoi: just grab the clojure jar from the clojure.org website and run java -jar clojure.jar youfile.clj
17:32	scriptor	atoi: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/TUTORIAL.md
17:32	scriptor	lein new <project-name> to start
17:32	atoi	cool.
17:32	atoi	I have another question though.
17:33	atoi	I want to make a data structure that is like ... filled with nils. then I receive incoming events and store them in this structure in a FIFO manner.
17:33	atoi	but `pop` and `conj` seem to both remove and add to the same area.
17:33	atoi	vectors, last. lists, first.
17:33	atoi	so if it's a list.
17:33	atoi	[1 2 3]
17:34	holo	hi
17:34	atoi	and then I pop it's [2 3] ... then I conj and it's [x 2 3] where x is what I conj'ed in.
17:34	hiredman	there is a persitentqueue impl, but before going to that I would suggest thinking through what you are doing
17:34	scriptor	atoi: conj works differently for different types of collections
17:34	atoi	scriptor, I noticed that.
17:34	atoi	hiredman, I have. This is how you do what I want to do.
17:34	hiredman	"filled with nils"
17:34	atoi	but I want to store, say, the last X items.
17:35	atoi	hiredman, that actually doesn't matter, sorry.
17:35	atoi	I just want to store the last X events in a rotating fashion.
17:35	atoi	and pop/conj don't seem to give me what I want in that regards.
17:35	hyPiRion	Circular buffer then.
17:35	atoi	it's actually inside a (dosync (alter myref)) kind of thing.
17:35	atoi	but... I don't know that it matters.
17:35	atoi	hyPiRion, where is that documented?
17:35	holo	this is a little offtopic, but the other channels are really non-responsive. in pgadmin, do you also have the problem browsing through the 700 postgres databases on heroku? it would be nice to hide the disconnected ones, which are mostly all of them
17:35	hyPiRion	Oh, there's none in Clojure core, but you want that.
17:36	atoi	there's really no way to pop from the end and push to the top??
17:36	lazybot	atoi: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
17:36	hiredman	he wants a queue (fifo) that there is one
17:36	hyPiRion	But you could use clojure.lang.PersistentQueue in some fashion, I believe
17:36	hyPiRion	Do it like...
17:36	metellus	he wants a stack (lifo)
17:36	atoi	no
17:36	atoi	I don't want a stack.
17:36	atoi	I want a fifo queue
17:36	hiredman	metellus: he said fifo
17:37	metellus	wow yeah sorry I don't know what I was thinking
17:37	nDuff	atoi: Joy of Clojure talks about why neither lists nor vectors are appropriate for use as FIFOs, and how PersistentQueue (which is what you want) gets the desired behaviors of both.
17:37	atoi	I need to look back and say "are the last X events I've seen all failures?"
17:37	atoi	cool. I guess I'll google PersistentQueue.
17:37	nDuff	...oh, so actually more like a circular buffer?
17:38	hyPiRion	,(let [queue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY] (-> queue (conj 1) (conj 2) (conj 3) (pop)))
17:38	atoi	nDuff, I'm not familiar with that term, but I want old events to fall out.
17:38	clojurebot	#<PersistentQueue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue@8d94bf51>
17:38	hyPiRion	,(let [queue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY] (-> queue (conj 1) (conj 2) (conj 3) (peek)))
17:38	clojurebot	1
17:38	nDuff	atoi: Yup. Sounds like what you _really_ want here is a circular buffer (aka "ring buffer") more than a PersistentQueue.
17:38	atoi	OK. 1. thanks hyPiRion for the help, 2. thanks nDuff and others for pointing that out.
17:39	TimMc	You could build something on top of pqueue that pops every time there's a conj.
17:39	atoi	Is there a 3rd party ring buffer that's easy to get access to? Because it seems like clojure.lang.PersistentQueue is at least at hand...
17:39	hyPiRion	You can simulate one with persistentQueue, though. check if the size is larger than your desired size, then if that's true, pop it off.
17:39	nDuff	atoi: https://github.com/amalloy/ring-buffer for one
17:40	hyPiRion	Or, actually, follow nDuff's link. Should be way better.
17:40	atoi	hyPiRion, I'll really be doing like (dosync (pop (conj ...
17:40	atoi	so I'd want to just have a set size pq.
17:40	hyPiRion	Yeah - there's none in core, so you have to get some 3rd party.
17:42	atoi	I guess it's just that I'm not a Lisp/Clojure programmer that that seems insane. :D
17:42	nDuff	What seems insane? Not having a ring buffer in core?
17:42	nDuff	What language _does_ have a ring buffer in core?
17:42	atoi	No, something you can use as a fifo queue.
17:42	atoi	Which is all I need, really.
17:42	nDuff	atoi: There's stuff you could use, but that would be unnecessarily slow/crappy
17:43	nDuff	atoi: ...whereas a ring buffer is exactly perfect.
17:43	hiredman	clojure has clojure.lang.PersistentQueue and also access to all the queues in the jre
17:43	atoi	Actually it would work out of the box, which would be perfect. :)
17:43	nDuff	atoi: ...just like, say, a Python list -- you could use it, but it'd be slower/crappier than a ring buffer for your purpose.
17:43	hiredman	so there are like at least 10 to choose from
17:43	atoi	I think PersistentQueue will be just fine.
17:43	hiredman	maybe 10 exactly
17:44	atoi	It's just that, as a complete Clojure noob, looking at the "Clojure cheat sheet" I wasn't able to find anything which works as FIFO. Which... isn't the end of the world, really. Thanks for the help. :)
17:44	hiredman	(which would make "at least 10" a pretty good guess on my part, since I only ever use lbq)
17:49	atoi	That is such the least of my worries today. :)
17:49	nDuff	...actually, it's funny -- being accustomed to using ring buffers in direct memory access situations, ie. network drivers, having them actually be persistent structures that involve allocation/deallocation to manipulate
17:51	hyPiRion	You're saying it doesn't make sense?
17:51	nDuff	hyPiRion: No, I'm not saying it doesn't make sense
17:52	atoi	Because I'm a total dumb dumb... why would (let [queue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY] (conj queue 1) (conj queue 2) (prn (count queue))) print 0 and then nil?
17:52	nDuff	hyPiRion: I'm just saying that my sensibilities as a system-level developer accustomed to using ring buffers for ultra-efficient zero-allocation type operations are... amused.
17:53	nDuff	hyPiRion: ...there's still value to the structure, but it doesn't have the characteristics that make it so incredibly attractive for the use cases where I more typically see ring buffers used.
17:53	hiredman	atoi: nil is the result of the expression
17:53	hyPiRion	atoi: You're not changing it. Do you know Java?
17:53	hiredman	the expression is not printing it
17:53	atoi	hiredman, that's not what I'm worried about, but that makes sense.
17:53	atoi	the 0 is what's weird.
17:53	hiredman	Persistent in clojure.lang.PersistentQueue should tell you the rest
17:54	nDuff	atoi: (conj queue 1) creates a new queue with 1 added, it doesn't change the original one
17:54	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_data_structure
17:54	hyPiRion	nDuff: I see, heh.
17:54	ToxicFrog	atoi: the queue is immutable. (conj queue 1) returns a new queue with 1 added, it doesn't alter the original in place.
17:54	nDuff	atoi: ...same as how other structures in Clojure work.
17:54	hiredman	http://clojure.org/data_structures
17:54	atoi	ah. yeah. right....
17:54	scriptor	atoi: (prn (count (conj queue 1))) should print 1
17:56	atoi	right...
17:56	atoi	well, fortunately, (dosync (alter window pop) (ref-set window (into [(:state event)] @window))) seems to do what we want... which is great...
17:56	atoi	when we (let window be a list.
17:57	TEttinger	,(let [queue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY] (prn (count (conj queue 1))))
17:57	clojurebot	1
17:57	TEttinger	,(let [queue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY] (prn (conj queue 1)))
17:57	clojurebot	#<PersistentQueue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue@9e3779ba>
17:57	TEttinger	,(let [queue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY] (print (apply str (conj queue 1))))
17:57	clojurebot	1
18:00	kenneth	hey -- concurrency question
18:03	kenneth	i'm trying to write a function which creates a serial queue, ie. a thread, and returns a function which asynchronously executes its argument (itself a function) in the thread
18:05	hiredman	why don't you just create a thread?
18:05	kenneth	ie. something like this (defn make-queue [] (let [thread (.start (Thread. something))] (fn [f] (do-in-thread f thread))))
18:05	hiredman	or better yet use an executor
18:06	kenneth	except i can't quite figure out what to make the thread do to act like a queue
18:06	amalloy	yeah, that's just a pretty rubbish agent, thread-pool, and/or executor
18:06	hiredman	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/concurrency/executors.html
18:06	hiredman	well, agents are not tired to a single thread
18:06	kenneth	wishing i had libdispatch right now :)
18:07	amalloy	no, but it's not clear he actually wants that anyway
18:07	hiredman	sure
18:08	kenneth	in c / lib dispatch i'd just create a serial queue and dispatch_async into this queue
18:08	hiredman	sometimes I feel like I could replace myself with a bot that just says "whoa, stop and think about it, read up about it"
18:08	emezeske	kenneth: Have you looked at http://clojure.org/agents and decided that isn't appropriate for your problem?
18:08	hiredman	kenneth: look, I linked you to the docs, go read them
18:09	kenneth	hiredman: that's what i'm doing at the moment
18:09	kenneth	executor docs
18:17	wmealing	is this channel logged ?
18:18	nDuff	wmealing: Yes.
18:18	nDuff	wmealing: ...and those logs are easily found by Google.
18:18	Raynes	wmealing: Yes. In two places.
18:19	wmealing	i'm finding some older ones
18:19	wmealing	will keep looking
18:19	atoi	Hello, I'm back with stupid questions.
18:19	atoi	(defn [x y & children] (prn y)) -> java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Parameter declaration prn should be a vector (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
18:19	kenneth	hiredman: does this make sense? https://gist.github.com/26b6bddf451b5b1fc7dc
18:19	atoi	This is obvious. BUT WHY?
18:19	Raynes	wmealing: http://raynes.me/logs/irc.freenode.net/clojure
18:19	scriptor	atoi: you don't have a function name :)
18:20	wmealing	thanks
18:20	atoi	oh, haha!
18:20	kenneth	also, in this case, does .execute block?
18:20	atoi	I'm rushing too much.
18:20	hiredman	kenneth: it's not a persistent queue
18:20	wmealing	Raynes, 1 year of logging :)
18:21	kenneth	hiredman: gonna add persistence later'
18:21	kenneth	trying to figure out the queue before i figure out the persistence
18:23	hiredman	kenneth: if you want a persistent queue I would recommend looking at something like hornetq (jvm message bus) which has an in vm transport
18:24	hiredman	an executor is not really a queue (but generally will have a queue inside the implementation somewhere)
18:24	hiredman	if the values you are trying to persist are functions you are going to have trouble there
18:34	AWizzArd	In my deftype I want to hint a var as ^:unsynchronized-mutable and as ^double. Is (deftype [^double ^:unsynchronized-mutable foo]) the way to do it, or should I say (deftype [^{:tag 'double :unsynchronized-mutable true} foo]) instead?
18:35	AWizzArd	Obviously I forgot the name of the type, but my question is about meta data anyway (:
19:22	amalloy	AWizzArd: those are both fine afaik
19:22	TimMc	"^" stacks just fine
19:23	atoi	I want to do zero? on a list, but it may have nils in it and I only want "true" if they're all zero of some sort and no exception if there's nils.
19:24	atoi	is there some sort of test to see if there's nils in a collection? I think I'm missing something.
19:25	TimMc	atoi: (every? #(or (nil? %) (zero? %)) my-list) <-- like that?
19:25	mattmoss	,(filter nil? [:a :b nil :c])
19:25	clojurebot	(nil)
19:26	TimMc	Wait, you want nil to be treated no differently than any non-zero value?
19:26	mattmoss	,(some nil? [:A :b nil :c])
19:26	clojurebot	true
19:26	atoi	I think I have it. yeah.
19:26	atoi	some is what I'm after.
19:26	TimMc	atoi: (every? zero? my-list)
19:26	atoi	TimMc, that blows up with nils involved
19:26	TimMc	&(zero? nil)
19:26	lazybot	java.lang.NullPointerException
19:26	TimMc	Huh, who knew.
19:26	atoi	I do, now. :)
19:26	TimMc	I'd consider that a bug.
19:27	TimMc	&(doc zero?) unless it says it expects a number...
19:27	lazybot	⇒ "([x]); Returns true if num is zero, else false"
19:27	technomancy	muhoo: I can't repro the bug where `lein repl :headless &` breaks without stdin
19:27	technomancy	any details about how you were able to trigger it?
19:28	atoi	TimMc, mattmoss: I think this maybe: (and (not (some nil? @mylist)) (every? zero? @mylist))
19:28	Raynes	&(some #(or (nil? %) (zero? %)) [0 0 0 nil 0])
19:28	lazybot	⇒ true
19:28	Raynes	&(some #(or (nil? %) (zero? %)) [0 0 0 0])
19:28	lazybot	⇒ true
19:28	atoi	Raynes, yeah, that's not what I want.
19:28	Raynes	&(some #(and (not (nil? %)) (zero? %)) [0 0 0 nil 0])
19:28	lazybot	⇒ true
19:28	Raynes	&(some #(and (not (nil? %)) (zero? %)) [0 0 0 0])
19:28	lazybot	⇒ true
19:29	Raynes	I can't code.
19:29	Raynes	Leave me alone.
19:29	atoi	,(and (not (some nil? (0 0.0 nil))) (every? zero? (0 0.0 nil))
19:29	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
19:29	atoi	whoops
19:29	mattmoss	,(every? (fnil nil? false) [0 0 0 nil 0])
19:29	clojurebot	false
19:29	atoi	fnil? hmm!
19:29	mattmoss	,(every? (fnil nil? true) [0 0 0 nil 0])
19:29	clojurebot	false
19:29	mattmoss	I'm not doing it right. I don't know the actualy problem. :)
19:30	Raynes	&(every? (fnil zero? 1) [0 0 0 1])
19:30	lazybot	⇒ false
19:30	Raynes	&(every? (fnil zero? 1) [0 0 0])
19:30	lazybot	⇒ true
19:30	Raynes	mattmoss, atoi: ^
19:30	technomancy	heh; fnil on nil?
19:31	atoi	&(every? (fnil zero? 1) [0 0 0 1 nil])
19:31	lazybot	⇒ false
19:31	mattmoss	&(every? (fnil zero? 1) [0 nil 0 1])
19:31	lazybot	⇒ false
19:31	atoi	nice.
19:31	Raynes	atoi: What this does is replace a nil first arg to zero? with 1, so that it still returns false for a nil but doesn't actually get called with it.
19:32	atoi	Right. I just read up on that. Nice.
19:32	atoi	:)
19:32	atoi	what is the & for?
19:32	mattmoss	eval to lazybot
19:32	atoi	o i c
19:32	Raynes	It's what makes lazybot evaluate the code.
19:32	atoi	I thought that was ,
19:32	Raynes	lazybot isn't clojurebot
19:32	amalloy	it's like salt. you just sprinkle it on to make your code awesome
19:32	mattmoss	thats' clojurebot
19:32	atoi	ah
19:32	mattmoss	Mmm, salt. And thyme.
19:36	shajith_	yeah i've seen that too
19:36	shajith_	um, misfire:/
19:37	AWizzArd	amalloy: yes, looks fine, I tested both ways.
19:39	Frozenlo`	Playing with Noir and lein-cljsbuild: is there a way to make the browser autorefresh when saving a file?
19:44	rbxbx	Frozenlo` if you're on a mac LiveReload would fit the bill nicely
19:44	rbxbx	http://livereload.com/
19:45	Frozenlo`	On a PC :-(
19:48	wmealing	although if your using chrome, https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/jnihajbhpnppcggbcgedagnkighmdlei
19:48	Frozenlo`	wmealing: let's say 'not Mac'
19:48	technomancy	it is really bizarre how Apple invented the personal computer and then tried their hardest to distance themselves from it
19:48	gfredericks	ah so linux then
19:49	technomancy	FSVO invented
19:49	gfredericks	Frozenlo`: get thyself a virtual box
19:49	Frozenlo`	wmealing: Seems really promising!
19:49	wmealing	Frozenlo`, there are others.. ive seen them
19:49	wmealing	i just dont remember
19:49	technomancy	Frozenlo`: you can use mozrepl to set up after-save-hooks from emacs to cause reloads in gecko-based browsers
19:50	Frozenlo`	technomancy: I do prefer Chrome... but to have this in Emacs I might make the jump :)
19:51	technomancy	mozrepl is amazing
19:51	technomancy	it's like slime for gecko
19:52	technomancy	you can basically rewrite the internals of firefox on the fly
19:52	n00b6502	can clojure have an absolute separation between pure & side-effect functions like haskell
19:53	Frozenlo`	technomancy: Would be nicer in elisp ;-)
19:53	technomancy	Frozenlo`: how about scheme? http://sourceforge.net/projects/minno/
19:54	technomancy	hrm; I guess that project was abandoned
19:54	technomancy	too bad
19:54	n00b6502	are there any text editors with color coded bracket depth
19:54	nDuff	n00b6502: With checking for that by the compiler rather than by convention? No; if you want that kind of formality, use Haskell.
19:54	nDuff	n00b6502: Yes, emacs does that well.
19:54	Frozenlo`	I've yet to try it. I have elisp, clojure and CL under my belt.
19:54	wmealing	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RSnHN6S52c <-mozrepl example
19:54	ivan	n00b6502: La Clojure has that too
19:54	wmealing	n00b6502, vim does it
19:54	wmealing	n00b6502, google "rainbow braces"
19:54	n00b6502	is there a gedit plugin
19:54	technomancy	Frozenlo`: you could resurrect http://common-lisp.net/project/closure/ =D
19:54	nDuff	hurl
19:54	rbxbx	look for rainbow parentheses in your editor
19:54	n00b6502	rainbox braces ah ok
19:54	nDuff	gedit?!
19:54	n00b6502	rainbox
19:54	n00b6502	rainbow shit
19:55	Frozenlo`	technomancy: and leave the poor w3m alone?
19:55	n00b6502	sorry i've used windows editors for too long. emacs and vi are alien to me
19:55	casion_	rainbow-delimiters in emacs
19:55	gfredericks	rainbow shit is the worst kind of natural disaster
19:55	wmealing	casion_, THANKYOU!
19:55	technomancy	gfredericks: I think they have treatment for that problem now
19:55	technomancy	some kind of pill
19:55	wmealing	ive been looking for the emacs one for a while
19:55	casion_	I love rainbow-delimiters-mode so much.
19:56	wmealing	casion_, does your theme mess with it ?
19:56	technomancy	IMO rainbow parens are unhelpful because they make it easy to match up delimiters in your brain
19:56	antifuchs	haha, yay closure (:
19:56	casion_	wmealing: nope
19:56	n00b6502	ivan, you say there is a clojure variant that can separate effects & pure ? i'd always thought seperate 'procedures' and 'functions' would be a simpleway to do it
19:56	casion_	it's fast and well-behaved
19:56	technomancy	antifuchs: have you used it?
19:56	wmealing	technomancy, how is that unhelpful ?
19:56	antifuchs	technomancy: I have! I also tried hacking on it a while ago
19:56	casion_	technomancy: unhelpful because they make it easy?
19:56	antifuchs	but that was before I had much of a clue about CLIM
19:56	ivan	n00b6502: er I meant the rainbow braces; I don't know about that
19:56	technomancy	wmealing: it slows you way down
19:56	casion_	that doesnt make sense to me at all :\|
19:57	technomancy	that kind of stuff shouldn't be handled by your brain at all
19:57	technomancy	needs to be pushed way down the stack
19:57	antifuchs	paredit++ (:
19:57	gfredericks	technomancy: I was imagining some meteorological event that sometimes occurs after rainbows. The sort of thing that might ruin your farm.
19:57	casion_	technomancy: it makes it much easier to read someone else's heavily nested code
19:57	technomancy	counting parens is like sounding out each individual letter when you're reading
19:57	wmealing	i have problems with paredit mode sometimes,
19:57	casion_	when writing your own, not so much writing
19:57	casion_	not so much*
19:57	wmealing	it doesn't always work how i'd want..
19:57	casion_	I'
19:58	antifuchs	wmealing: yeah; it should be relatively easy to recover though
19:58	technomancy	it's probably necessary when you're learning, but once you know how it works it slows you way down; you need to learn to do it instinctively below the conscious level of your brain
19:58	casion_	I'm new to clojure and cl, and I've had no issue with paredit yet
19:58	gfredericks	"...that was the year the rainbow shat and took out all the farms west of Highway F..."
19:58	antifuchs	you can still insert/delete delimiters
19:58	nDuff	n00b6502: ...Clojure _can't_ have statically validated pure functions without preventing other JVM code from participating. I suppose someone could built a checker that used a whitelist...
19:58	technomancy	gfredericks: eep
19:59	Frozenlo`	isn't (show-paren-mode) enough?
19:59	Frozenlo`	No need to count them, and it's quite low profile.
19:59	wmealing	technomancy, what about matching brace highlight ?
19:59	wmealing	and is there a key to jump to the matching ()
19:59	casion_	yes, )
20:00	technomancy	jumping to the matching delimiter is definitely the way to go
20:00	casion_	or (
20:00	wmealing	ok
20:00	casion_	inside the sexp
20:00	casion_	same for []
20:00	gfredericks	how do you jump to matching delimiters in paredit?
20:00	technomancy	matching highlight isn't as bad since it's not as distracting. I'm on the fence as to whether it's a net positive or not.
20:00	casion_	gfredericks: just hit a close parens
20:00	antifuchs	I love love love C-M-u (jump "up" out of current subexpression). Makes things so much easier
20:01	wmealing	casion_, doesn't do it on mine.
20:01	casion_	and that jumps to the closing of the current sexp
20:01	antifuchs	also, C-M-t (transpose expressions) (-:
20:01	gfredericks	casion_: how about jumping the other way?
20:01	casion_	oh
20:01	casion_	righ
20:01	technomancy	antifuchs: I think I tried compiling closure in 06 or so, but I couldn't ever get it to run
20:01	antifuchs	technomancy: yeah, way too late at that point (;
20:01	antifuchs	wmealing: usually, C-M (control+meta) is the prefix for expression-based commands
20:02	antifuchs	wmealing: so, C-M-f and b will take you forward and backwards an expression
20:02	technomancy	antifuchs: by that time conkeror came along and saved me
20:02	casion_	gfredericks: pretty sure it's c-m-f
20:02	antifuchs	same for u and so on
20:02	casion_	let me chceck
20:02	antifuchs	technomancy: it's a really nice browser. implemented more of css than mozilla at the time (:
20:02	antifuchs	but, hah. that was ages ago
20:02	casion_	nope
20:02	casion_	hmm
20:02	technomancy	I can see the appeal
20:02	antifuchs	I am really super impressed that one single person wrote it
20:02	wmealing	antifuchs, yep that works.. hawt.
20:03	technomancy	though mozilla is so much more dynamic than other browsers that it eases a lot of the same pain points
20:03	antifuchs	wmealing: yay (:
20:03	wmealing	i'm pretty new to emacs , about a month after work hours.. hacking and playing
20:03	antifuchs	Gilbert also made most of the underlying gui toolkit (McCLIM)
20:03	casion_	antifuchs: c-m-f is what I tohught it was, but it's not working correctly in this buffer
20:03	casion_	very odd
20:03	antifuchs	and he once said he made the browser to browse the CLIM spec nicely (-:
20:03	wmealing	casion_, c-m-t does some kind of text movement
20:03	antifuchs	like, I can't even comprehend how that makes sense. but it's amazing.
20:04	technomancy	hah
20:04	antifuchs	wmealing: yeah, it switches the expression to the left of the cursor with the one on the right
20:04	casion_	wmealing: c-m-t should transpose words
20:04	wmealing	transpose, good mnemonic.. ok i can remember that
20:05	antifuchs	wmealing: C-t works on chars, M-t works on words, C-M-t works on expressions (:
20:05	casion_	ah, m-t is transpose words, c-m-t is transpose sexp
20:05	antifuchs	(and C-t works on bash, too)
20:05	casion_	antifuchs: is constantly 1 second ahead of me :P
20:05	antifuchs	casion_: hah!
20:06	antifuchs	too few people know that readline and most shells understand C-t and do the painful backspace-backspace-type-type dance
20:06	antifuchs	(hard to watch) (:
20:06	Frozenlo`	eshell
20:07	casion_	antifuchs: cocoa text-boxes understand them as well in os x
20:07	antifuchs	yessssss
20:07	casion_	along with most basic emacs commands
20:07	casion_	by default
20:07	n00b6502	is Haskell the only language with rigouroous seperation of sideeffects/pure functions
20:07	antifuchs	indeed. <3.
20:07	antifuchs	(that was to casion_, not to n00b6502; I don't know the authoritative answer to that, sorry)
20:08	casion_	it blows my brain into many pieces when I sit down at windows and c-a/e c-t/m-t m/c-b-f-n-p etc.. don't work in everything
20:09	casion_	in linux/unix I can just open emacs and do whatever heh
20:09	Frozenlo`	solution: install emacs on windows
20:09	technomancy	n00b6502: I think Coq and Agda have it too
20:09	casion_	Frozenlo`: that is rarely an option for me
20:10	Frozenlo`	use the portable Emacs on a thumb drive?
20:10	Frozenlo`	IIRC, that's how I started learning emacs.
20:10	casion_	Frozenlo`: that is what I try to do usually, but even then, when you step out of emacs you're screwed
20:11	casion_	in os x it works everywhere, and linux there's not much you can't do with emacs
20:11	technomancy	there are other languages that separate out side-effects from pure functions, but none nearly as popular as haskell
20:11	n00b6502	everything has at least one thing broken i guess
20:11	n00b6502	haskell: the record system
20:11	casion_	from what I've read, it's intentional in clojure?
20:12	technomancy	n00b6502: suck is a unit vector; various software doesn't suck less, it just sucks in a direction a given hacker finds more or less disagreeable.
20:12	n00b6502	scala has haskell style monads, right?
20:12	xeqi	n00b6502: as in do notation?
20:12	xeqi	or.. what does haskell style mean
20:13	dnolen	n00b6502: even Haskell solution for controlling effects is wanting as evidenced by monad transformer hassles.
20:13	technomancy	as far as optimizations clojure's compiler is intentionally a bit dumb because hotspot picks up the slack
20:13	n00b6502	hehe i'm still not sure i can explain what a monad is, but i understand how blahblah -> IO () etc controls side effects and more
20:13	xeqi	I'd expect coq, omega, and a lot of other languages at the high end type theory to seperate side effects as well
20:13	n00b6502	>>= and do etc
20:14	n00b6502	haskell surprised me - for a long time i refused to touch it (alien syntax) - now i find everything else ugly
20:14	xeqi	n00b6502: monad is an abstraction, that any functional language can do
20:15	dnolen	xeqi: specifying code with multiple kinds of effects & not making it a PITA is an still a wide open research problem as far as I can tell.
20:15	xeqi	well, any language with a hof equivalent
20:15	xeqi	dnolen: true
20:15	n00b6502	IO .. or seperation into seperate io systems like file, network, graphics ...
20:16	casion_	my understanding of haskell is limited, but isn't a monad essentially a function that generates a state?
20:16	brainproxy	what's an idiomatic dir to specify for an embedded database that's writing to the local filesystem? resources/ ?
20:16	n00b6502	when i say "its a wrapper for a return value that indicates state" haskellers tell me it isn't
20:17	gfredericks	~monad
20:17	clojurebot	monad is #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.sql.SQLSyntaxErrorException: Syntax error: Encountered "=" at line 1, column 38.>
20:17	technomancy	brainproxy: resources/ gets put on the classpath
20:17	technomancy	so I'd avoid using it for things accessed explicitly by path
20:17	n00b6502	its not always state. it can be IO, state, "maybe", many things cpontrolled by the same syntax
20:17	hiredman	clojurebot: monad?
20:17	clojurebot	monad is the new gotos
20:17	casion_	lol
20:18	n00b6502	i always liked the method in C of indicating effect with pointers to systems but the standard libraries dont work like that :)
20:18	casion_	the C method is =
20:18	casion_	pretty simple
20:18	n00b6502	isn't it "mutable state is the new goto
20:18	gfredericks	n00b6502: I like "mutable data structures"
20:19	technomancy	~gourds
20:19	clojurebot	SQUEEZE HIM!
20:19	n00b6502	i mean i like the practice in C of banning globals and passing system pointers around so you can tell from a prototype what a function can and can't do
20:19	casion_	n00b6502: I think you mean c++
20:19	brainproxy	technomancy: thanks!
20:19	n00b6502	you can do it in C too just fine
20:19	brainproxy	think I'll just use ./databases/ relative to the project's root
20:19	casion_	it's not idiomatic to do as such in C
20:20	n00b6502	whatever ... you certainly can do it :)
20:21	n00b6502	i've not used clojure yet, the lisp macros seem intruiging
20:22	n00b6502	do many peopl do haskell style currying in clojure
20:22	n00b6502	(partial foo ... ) ... ?
20:23	n00b6502	but its possible to make macros to declare curryable functions ?
20:23	gfredericks	$google currj
20:23	lazybot	[Fiction Review: “Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk” by Ben Fountain ...] http://lit.newcity.com/2012/06/05/fiction-review-billy-lynns-long-halftime-walk-by-ben-fountain/
20:23	gfredericks	crap
20:23	gfredericks	$google github currj
20:23	lazybot	[Guide to I.S. Ravdin Papers, University of Pennsylvania University ...] http://www.archives.upenn.edu/faids/upt/upt50/ravdin_guide.pdf
20:23	gfredericks	O_O
20:23	gfredericks	https://github.com/fredericksgary/currj
20:23	gfredericks	I am unnotable
20:24	technomancy	gfredericks: why not just call it curried/fn?
20:24	technomancy	require/as dude
20:25	xeqi	oh, and since no one else has referenced it: https://github.com/clojure/algo.monads/
20:25	technomancy	gfredericks: also, what's let* in this context?
20:25	gfredericks	technomancy: because I don't have the best ideas first all the time
20:25	gfredericks	technomancy: a work in progress :)
20:25	technomancy	heh
20:25	antifuchs	brainproxy: I've seen tmp/ used
20:26	gfredericks	let* and fn* are the two major special forms left I think
20:26	gfredericks	they're both harder because they create locals
20:26	antifuchs	(oh my, was scrolled way up, disregard)
20:26	technomancy	gfredericks: I don't follow
20:26	technomancy	why do you have to cover special forms?
20:26	amalloy	technomancy: he wants to do smarter currying
20:26	Gnosis-	what's the best way to interface Clojure with Ruby on Rails?
20:27	gfredericks	technomancy: I'm taking the expression inside the macro and sussing out which bits can be computed when. I macroexpand the whole thing first so I only have to deal with special forms and locals/vars
20:27	amalloy	((curried/fn [x y] (if (even? x) y (inc y))) 0) => (fn [y] y)
20:27	technomancy	gfredericks: oh, to avoid runtime overhead?
20:27	n00b6502	in clojure is #(somefunction arg1 %) another way of doing curry
20:27	n00b6502	or rather alternative
20:27	gfredericks	technomancy: well the current implementation is almost all runtime overhead, but it doesn't have to be
20:28	gfredericks	technomancy: either way I don't know how to not deal with special forms
20:28	technomancy	Gnosis-: https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http =)
20:28	TimMc	n00b6502: That's more like partial application.
20:28	wmealing	another emacs question, is there a "nice" way to auto-tidy clojure code ?
20:28	n00b6502	currying is just "partial application by default"?
20:28	Gnosis-	technomancy: huh, what? HTTP?
20:28	gfredericks	amalloy: I'm working on a refactoring now that would involve an independent piece that does the exact let-lifting that you said you wanted earlier
20:28	amalloy	<3
20:29	amalloy	wmealing: M-q if you have paredit on, i think C-M-q otherwise
20:29	wmealing	ok
20:29	technomancy	gfredericks: if you disallow varargs isn't auto-currying just a matter of inspecting & args and calling partial appropriately?
20:30	gfredericks	technomancy: that's a naive currying yes; I want precomputation as well
20:30	amalloy	technomancy: did you parse what i said? he's trying to be smarter
20:30	Frozenlo`	Eh guys... what's the command to list directory recursively in ubuntu?
20:30	wmealing	find
20:30	gfredericks	technomancy: I have an actual project that I want to use this in. I've hand-curried several functions and it's stupid and messy and hard to follow
20:30	amalloy	Frozenlo`: i think /join #unix?
20:30	wmealing	or #ubuntu
20:30	TimMc	Oh god, not #ubuntu.
20:31	n00b6502	is clojure usable on android
20:31	TimMc	Just go to the man pages, they won't listen either, but at least they'll proide information.
20:31	Frozenlo`	Next time I won't ask here, I promise :P
20:31	wmealing	n00b6502, there is a repl
20:31	Peregrine	for certain definitions of usable
20:31	technomancy	ok, I see
20:31	casion_	Frozenlo`: ls- R?
20:32	casion_	no ?
20:32	casion_	wtf is wrong with me
20:32	Frozenlo`	casion_: Yes!
20:32	casion_	also, I just did that in /
20:32	casion_	fuck me :(
20:32	amalloy	find, guys. the answer is find, because find is always the answer
20:32	technomancy	no tree
20:32	TimMc	unless it is ed
20:32	amalloy	such a good program
20:32	technomancy	asciiart <3
20:32	amalloy	TimMc: find \| ed ## god knows what this will do
20:32	gfredericks	I don't think you're doing it right if you don't use xargs at some point
20:32	Gnosis-	technomancy: so HTTP is a good way to interface with RoR? or should I try a JNI bridge with Ruby?
20:33	Gnosis-	or even JRuby?
20:33	n00b6502	is the syntax for records/structs in clojure/lisps a pain
20:33	casion_	n00b6502: I'm pretty new to clojure, but I quite like the record syntax
20:33	technomancy	Gnosis-: HTTP is an excellent way to interact with web applications in general =)
20:33	amalloy	n00b6502: "is the syntax for x a pain" => "if so, write your own syntax"
20:33	TimMc	n00b6502: Can't speak for other lisps, because syntax varies widely, y'know? Anyway, records aren't used much in Clojure. The syntax is fine, if that mattered.
20:33	technomancy	n00b6502: you generally don't need records in clojure
20:34	casion_	most of the time it seems you can just use maps anyway
20:34	Gnosis-	technomancy: haha. but what if there's a large Ruby on Rails app that I want to add functionality to with Clojure?
20:34	amalloy	technomancy: perhaps rich would say more like: you generally don't need records, and clojure makes that explicit
20:34	amalloy	but i dunno. who am i to pretend i'm rich
20:35	technomancy	Gnosis-: if it absolutely has to be in the same process, you can use jruby. but it's simpler to communicate over queues or rest APIs; lots of people use rabbitmq, for instance.
20:35	Gnosis-	ah, thanks
20:36	technomancy	Gnosis-: I think there was a talk at clojurewest on some of the pitfalls of doing it in-process
20:36	technomancy	by arohner maybe?
20:36	arohner	Gnosis-: technomancy: yes, that was me
20:36	n00b6502	is it true lisp object systems are just macros
20:37	arohner	Gnosis-: https://github.com/strangeloop/clojurewest2012-slides/raw/master/Rohner-JRuby.pdf
20:37	Gnosis-	many thanks
20:38	hiredman	you can use torquebox(jruby) + immutant(clojure) which are both built on jboss so you get interop via jboss queues etc
20:38	arohner	the video gets released next week. No idea if it's any good
20:39	arohner	the biggest problems are 1) jruby is immature 2) there is lots of extra complexity, due to managing multiple JRuby runtimes in the same process and 3) ruby and clojure don't mix well, if you want to share Models, because Clojure assumes immutability, while Ruby assumes mutability
20:40	gfredericks	man I couldn't even use a java.whatsit.AtomicReference in jruby
20:40	Gnosis-	arohner: I don't think I'll use JRuby, just because I doubt this RoR app is even compatible (it's not a trivial app)
20:41	arohner	Gnosis-: I was pleasantly surprised, a standard rails3 app w/ mongo just worked out of the box
20:42	Gnosis-	arohner: for your point #3, what if a Ruby wrapper object was equivalent to a Clojure ref? just brainstorming :)
20:43	arohner	activerecord rows aren't refs, and clojure refs assume they are a pointer to an immutable object, with equality identity
20:43	Gnosis-	hiredman: thanks, I'll check out immutant...
20:43	arohner	you could probably write a ref-like thing that could work, but it would be very messy, and not a standard clojure ref
20:44	hiredman	Gnosis-: they have a channel on freenode #immutant
20:44	technomancy	personally sending json messages across rabbit would be my first choice
20:44	technomancy	but it depends on where you want to add clojure; every project's different
20:45	Gnosis-	technomancy: https://we.riseup.net/crabgrass/about <--- this is the RoR app, for what it's worth
20:45	hiredman	technomancy: I think immutant <-> torquebox uses json over hornetq
20:45	hiredman	(or at least that is the idea of how it would work)
20:46	hiredman	http://immutant.org/tutorials/overlay/index.html
20:47	technomancy	hiredman: yeah, but he said jruby would be a difficult jump
20:48	hiredman	ah, well
20:52	n00b6502	clojure is eager eval?
20:53	gfredericks	except for all the lazy seq stuff
20:53	muhoo	after playing around with protocols/types, i wouldn't want to have to go back to doing stuff with inheritance and helpers
20:53	muhoo	core.cljs is just a thing of beauty
20:53	technomancy	muhoo: heyyyy
20:53	technomancy	muhoo: I can't repro the bug where `lein repl :headless &` breaks without stdin
20:54	technomancy	any details as to how you're triggering it?
20:54	muhoo	technomancy: hi there. really? hmm. i'm on linux, jvm 1.6
20:54	antifuchs	arohner: oh, hey, fancy seeing you here. love circleci (-:
20:54	arohner	antifuchs: great!
20:54	muhoo	i've also reproed it on busybox/arm/beagleboard too
20:54	technomancy	heh; cool
20:55	technomancy	muhoo: does it happen on master?
20:55	muhoo	oh, good point.i'm using preview7
20:55	muhoo	what's the trick to run lein from git master?
20:55	muhoo	thanks for looking into that, btw
20:56	technomancy	muhoo: run `lein install` from the leiningen-core dir and you should be good
20:56	muhoo	will that wipe out my preview7?
20:56	technomancy	nope, just run bin/lein from the checkout to test it
20:56	muhoo	perfect, will try now
20:58	muhoo	technomancy: [2]+ Stopped ./bin/lein repl :headless
20:58	technomancy	muhoo: do you have easy access to openjdk 7?
20:58	muhoo	could find a machine to install it on, sure
20:59	muhoo	i'll try that and see how it goes
20:59	technomancy	if it's not too much hassle
20:59	antifuchs	technomancy: btw, I was looking into porting swank-clojure over to a more recent slime (maybe tracking quicklisp releases); would you mind walking me through how you do development on it one of these days?
21:00	antifuchs	(I'm going to be hackationing next week, so should have a bit of spare time for an interesting side project)
21:00	technomancy	antifuchs: I actually took it over from its original author; I'm not very familiar with the internals
21:00	muhoo	ok, will do
21:00	technomancy	the only parts I've worked on are the launching
21:00	antifuchs	technomancy: I don't mind that, I'm mostly interested in how you launch & test it (:
21:00	technomancy	muhoo: oddly enough I can't even get lein repl working on 1.6
21:01	muhoo	!
21:01	muhoo	works great here. thanks for pushing nrepl.el along too. it's fantastic to have a slime-like env going, without slime :-)
21:01	technomancy	muhoo: oh, because I'm currently using a custom reply build that I compiled with 1.7
21:01	technomancy	reverting back to the stable build fixed it
21:01	technomancy	whew
21:02	technomancy	antifuchs: it's pretty much like any other leiningen project; I guess the only thing that makes it different is that I use :eval-in-leiningen to make it boot faster
21:02	technomancy	so it's running in the same process as leiningen rather than starting a subprocess
21:02	antifuchs	ahh, nice
21:03	technomancy	antifuchs: so you should be able to just run `lein swank` from the project root and you're off to the races
21:03	antifuchs	do you have any neat tricks for patching it in a running image? (:
21:03	antifuchs	ah, excellent
21:03	technomancy	antifuchs: curious though, have you seen ritz?
21:03	technomancy	it's probably closer to what you want
21:03	antifuchs	I have not!
21:03	antifuchs	that sounds neat.
21:03	technomancy	https://github.com/pallet/ritz
21:03	antifuchs	* Allows stepping from breakpoints
21:03	antifuchs	crazy
21:04	technomancy	it doesn't work with the absolute latest slime, but it's a newer rev than swank-clojure uses
21:04	antifuchs	that sounds way nice. thanks for the pointer!
21:04	technomancy	sure
21:04	technomancy	plus its maintainer actually understands how it works =)
21:04	antifuchs	hahaha, that's an excellent thing
21:04	technomancy	I'm actually planning on officially deprecating swank-clojure very soon
21:04	antifuchs	so I heard
21:05	antifuchs	hope one of the alternatives can take over google juice soon (:
21:05	muhoo	nrepl.el ftw
21:05	antifuchs	right now, searching for emacs and clojure finds tons of swank-clojure tutorials
21:05	technomancy	that's always been swank's achilles' heel
21:06	antifuchs	heh, popularity? (;
21:09	technomancy	muhoo: yeah, just confirmed it's fine here on 1.6
21:09	muhoo	it's fine, meaning, non-reproducable there?
21:09	technomancy	yeah
21:09	technomancy	are you in bash?
21:09	muhoo	i am
21:10	technomancy	same here
21:12	muhoo	btw, one of the fun things about running java from nix is the ssl certs keystore is empty. easy to fix, but took me a few hours to figure out the first time.
21:13	technomancy	yeah, that's a bit of a drag
21:13	muhoo	lein requires ssl, so it fails to install
21:14	technomancy	oh yeah, I haven't been using nix's jdk since preview7
21:14	muhoo	i just copy /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-sun/jre/lib/security/cacerts to wherever/jre/lib/security :-)
21:15	muhoo	actually, that might be a good doc item for leiningen
21:16	technomancy	wait, it fails to install completely?
21:16	technomancy	lein ships with the clojars cert now, so it shouldn't depend upon it existing in the JDK
21:20	muhoo	yes, i think the problem is in the shell script
21:20	tacoman	I'm using lein2 with lein-tarsier, and vimclojure apparently can't find any code in the project on the classpath
21:20	tacoman	is there something I'm missing in the docs about how to configure it?
21:20	technomancy	muhoo: oh, so it's not the JDK's cert store then
21:20	technomancy	but curl's?
21:21	muhoo	no, jdk's. lein requires lein new-new and bultitude
21:21	tacoman	uh, nevermind. bit of user error on my testing when I switched to lein2
21:21	muhoo	so, the lein jar installs, but then won't run, because it tries to install newnew and bultitude, and can't becuase the certs donn't exist
21:21	technomancy	yeah, but it primes the cert store internally before trying to resolve newnew and bultitude
21:21	technomancy	or at least it should
21:21	technomancy	maybe something's happening out of order
21:22	tacoman	not sure if I'm happier that I got that working or that I actually asked the question right before realizing what was up
21:22	technomancy	no, load-certificates comes before load-plugins
21:22	muhoo	technomancy: https://www.refheap.com/paste/4191
21:23	muhoo	OpenJDK Runtime Environment (build 1.7.0-release-b127)
21:23	muhoo	export LEIN_VERSION="2.0.0-preview7"
21:23	technomancy	muhoo: eep
21:24	technomancy	muhoo: thanks for the heads up
21:24	muhoo	it's very easy to fix though, just make sure the cacerts is populated.
21:24	technomancy	it's already populated at runtime
21:24	muhoo	ain't your fault people ship jvms with empty ssl certs
21:25	muhoo	debian apparently fixes this by linking to /etc/java-6-sun/security/cacerts. nix apparently not so much.
21:25	technomancy	I wouldn't sweat it except we already have code in it to address literally this exact situation
21:26	muhoo	in preview7? or later?
21:26	technomancy	preview7
21:27	technomancy	your stack trace comes from literally the exact line after load-certificates
21:27	technomancy	oooooh wait though
21:27	muhoo	regression?
21:27	technomancy	I think the cert was renewed since preview7
21:27	technomancy	can you try it with master?
21:27	muhoo	probably, hang on.
21:28	technomancy	definitely need to handle the expiry case though
21:28	technomancy	rotation is hard
21:31	muhoo	ok, i'm in an urubus loop here. how can i run lein from git on a machine that doesn't have lein?
21:32	gfredericks	from git?
21:32	gfredericks	`git lein pull repl`
21:32	gfredericks	\| xargs -0
21:33	amalloy	cough ouroboros. urubus is...difficult to recognize
21:33	muhoo	sorry, spelling
21:33	amalloy	muhoo: see the readme, under the Building tag
21:33	gfredericks	clojure-jack-in doesn't include the dev deps?
21:34	muhoo	amalloy: thanks, lein1 to the rescue
21:35	amalloy	gfredericks: i feel like you and i are on different planets, and one planet is totally misunderstanding muhoo
21:35	gfredericks	amalloy: my last statement wasn't re: muhoo
21:35	_Vi	Should "clojure-contrib" be used?
21:36	gfredericks	amalloy: and everything before that was a joke
21:36	muhoo	technomancy: ok, it works from bin/lein, using git.
21:36	xeqi	~contrib
21:36	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
21:36	muhoo	but, it could be an artifact of what lein1 does!
21:38	muhoo	ok, it is hard to do a clean experiment on lein2 from git
21:38	_Vi	What library should be used to make str-utils/re-partition available?
21:38	gfredericks	man the core.match README has a one line error and I have to submit a patch through jira to get it fixed?
21:38	muhoo	because it pulls its stuff from leiningen-core/lib/*
21:39	muhoo	but when installed, lein2 seems to pull stuff from the net. and that's when it runs into certificate problems.
21:39	amalloy	_Vi: i don't know what that function is, but it sounds like ##(doc re-seq)
21:39	lazybot	⇒ "([re s]); Returns a lazy sequence of successive matches of pattern in string, using java.util.regex.Matcher.find(), each such match processed with re-groups."
21:42	_Vi	amalloy, Not that. In general, should I supposed to use functions mentioned on http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/str-utils-api.html in the new code?
21:42	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/str-utils-api.html and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
21:42	amalloy	sigh, i need to get that autocorrect fixed
21:42	gfredericks	dnolen: the namespace in the clojure example in the core.match readme is out of date; is there anything I can do or easiest for you to fix it yourself?
21:44	dnolen	gfredericks: thx, fixed
21:44	gfredericks	(inc dnolen)
21:44	lazybot	⇒ 7
21:44	gfredericks	dnolen: thanks!
21:46	_Vi	Oh, I see "Deprecated since clojure-contrib version 1.2"... Where is description of what I should use instead?
21:46	gfredericks	in core.match if I want to match ('foo _) where the thing has to be a seq, (match [x] [(['foo _] :when seq?)] true) doesn't work? is there any way to do that?
21:47	cgag	i'm trying to print a lazy seq, I'm doing (println (str "my seq: " (doall myseq))), but still getting "my seq: LazySeq029834"... What am I doing wrong? I guess it's still a lazy seq, just fully realized?
21:47	gfredericks	cgag: pr-str
21:47	gfredericks	(str some-lazy-seq) is never helpful realized or not
21:48	eggsby	in core.match, I don't understand the point of the variable binding inside the match vectors, wouldn't you already have a symbol bound to the value if you can match off of it?
21:48	gfredericks	eggsby: I don't understand the question
21:49	eggsby	i.e. (let [a 1 b 2] (match [a b] [1 x] (println "You found" x "!")))
21:49	eggsby	if you already can match off of the values of a and b, they are bound in scope already right?
21:49	amalloy	(match [1 2] [1 x] ...)
21:50	amalloy	(match someone-elses-value [1 x] ...)
21:50	cgag	gfredericks, that works, thank
21:51	amalloy	(match [[1 2] [3 4]] [_ [3 x]] ...)
21:52	eggsby	ah okay, I can see it's usefulness w/ destructuring
21:52	eggsby	thanks amalloy
21:53	gfredericks	I'm using core.match in tests for macro expansions and so seq vs vector is significant
21:53	amalloy	(match foo [x x] (dude foo has two of the same item!))
21:53	amalloy	anyway, destructuring isn't the half of it
21:54	eggsby	hmm, I probably just don't properly understand all the stuff you can do w/ pattern matching
21:57	muhoo	technomancy: ok, the problem definitely is in the shell script, not the jvm or clojure. the process stops when backgrounded, before the jvm even launches.
21:58	gfredericks	the guard examples in the core.match wiki seem to be wrong. Not sure where to get better docs :/
21:59	muhoo	technomancy: and, it is something in my bashrc or profile :-(
22:00	muhoo	not reproable using a clean shell with stock .bashrc and .profile
22:01	technomancy	muhoo: the plot thickens!
22:01	muhoo	the plot shows i'm an asshole :-(
22:10	gfredericks	amalloy: (match [2 3] [x x] false [x y] true) won't compile o_O
22:11	gfredericks	it complains that x is repeated
22:16	dnolen	gfredericks: yeah that's not allowed.
22:16	gfredericks	dnolen: how do I assert that two things should match?
22:17	dnolen	gfredericks: it's simply not possibly ... work has not been done to support that.
22:17	dnolen	possible
22:17	gfredericks	oh, okay
22:17	gfredericks	thanks
22:18	dnolen	gfredericks: on the bright side I'm getting the hunkering to really fix core.match now that I'm wrapping up core.logic 0.8
22:18	gfredericks	:)
22:19	dnolen	gfredericks: so things like that will probably addressed, as well as outstanding bugs, ugliness and AOT issues.
22:20	gfredericks	dnolen: I hope no one ever accuses you of not working hard
23:34	mefisto`	I'm trying to start a new conjure project, and following the getting started guide on the conjure wiki, I do "lein conjure new" and get the error: Unknown command: new ... not sure what to do
23:36	amalloy	mefisto`: conjure? you really don't want to use conjure
23:36	mefisto`	amalloy: no?
23:36	amalloy	unless someone's written a new project named conjure in the last three years
23:37	amalloy	which is about how long ago the conjure i know was used at all
23:38	mefisto`	what's the matter with it
23:39	Peregrine	mefisto, I believe the command you're using would work if you were using lein 1 and had the lein_conjure plugin installed.
23:40	Peregrine	However it will not work with lein2 until they have an updated template for lein 2.
23:40	Peregrine	But I am pretty inexperienced with clojure so take my comments with a grain of salt.
23:44	mefisto`	Peregrine: I see, ok
23:48	Raynes	mefisto`: Nobody uses conjure.
23:48	Raynes	Which is what amalloy was saying.
23:49	Peregrine	Since it was updated 10 hours ago I wouldn't say nobody but probably pretty few
23:50	Raynes	Okay, I guess the author uses it.
23:50	Raynes	And if you really, really like rails.
23:51	metajack	If I'm using datomic-free in ring, should I be pooling the connections somehow, or just calling d/connect and not worrying about it?
23:52	mefisto`	what are people using mostly?
23:53	Raynes	Compojure is the popular choice. As is Noir.
23:54	Raynes	But, of course, we're not telling you to not use conjure. Just be aware that you probably wont get any help with it except from the author himself.
23:55	Raynes	I think the reason conjure never caught on was because Compojure is much simpler and a lot of people come to Clojure to get away from the giant Rails-like frameworks.
23:55	Raynes	Not that I'm saying there is anything wrong with Rails. Heaven knows I don't want to get in one of those arguments. :p
23:56	mefisto`	prepare for rails rage!!!!!
23:56	xeqi	rjs was the bestest
23:57	mefisto`	anyway, ok I was hoping that conjure would be a way to cater to my laziness but it was too good to be true