#clojure – 2012-07-31

2012-07-31

00:47	muhoo	ordnung, eh?
00:51	nkkarthik	in clojurescript to connect to repl from a page I need to add 'repl/connect' code to the page
00:51	nkkarthik	but this I cannot check-in... into production I mean
00:52	nkkarthik	is there some conventional way that you guys follow?
00:52	emezeske	nkkarthik: (when config/debug (repl/connect))
00:54	nkkarthik	emezeske: ah where do I set this?... is config/debug automatically available at compile time?
00:55	emezeske	nkkarthik: No, I just assumed that your app has some kind of configuration to tell it to e.g. use minified/plaintext assets, verbose logging, etc
00:56	nkkarthik	emezeske: ok... is there a conventional way to set these properties (or specify a file)... in cljsbuild options or somewhere?
00:57	nkkarthik	or do your own way
00:58	emezeske	I'm not sure if there's much of a standard convention at this point
00:59	emezeske	I tend to put my configuration stuff in a crossover .clj file, personally
00:59	emezeske	I don't know if that scales well or not, though
01:00	nkkarthik	emezeske: oh a config.clj file... not config.cljs?... so that this 'connect' code gets compiled out altogether?
01:01	emezeske	nkkarthik: The crossovers allow you to share .clj code with .cljs; I use that for my config so that both clojure and clojurescript have access to the config variables
01:01	emezeske	nkkarthik: You could use a macro to compile out that code altogether if you wanted
01:02	emezeske	nkkarthik: If you are just using cljs, and no clj, then crossovers don't buy you anything
01:03	nkkarthik	emezeske: yeah I just started out with cljs and going through the quick start... and had this question... I thought maybe we use clojure to compile it to javascript and so we can use a clj file to compile it out
01:03	nkkarthik	emezeske: the macro idea sounds good too
01:03	emezeske	nkkarthik: That's definitely an option. If you're just starting out, though, I recommend staying away from advanced features like crossovers until you feel comfortable with the basics
01:03	emezeske	nkkarthik: They are kind of a hack, and are tricky to get right
01:04	nkkarthik	emezeske: yeah I will keep out then :)
01:07	nkkarthik	emezeske: I will stay with the config.cljs file for now then
01:07	nkkarthik	emezeske: by the way... thank you for the plugin
01:08	emezeske	nkkarthik: Yeah, I'm glad you've found it useful!
01:30	mk	can I change part of a function defined using defn, or must I use a second defn to redefine the function?
01:33	mk	,(defn f [n] (* 2 n)) (f 2)
01:33	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
01:34	mk	if I'm on the repl, and there's a thread executing a loop within f, how can I change the 2 to a 3 without interrupting that thread?
01:44	emezeske	mk: The defn macro takes a list of forms, makes a fn, and then puts it into a Var
01:44	emezeske	mk: The list of forms is definitely immutable
01:44	emezeske	mk: And I think the fn is too
01:44	emezeske	mk: Meaning that if you want to change things, you need to change the "f" Var, which you could do by, as you said, another defn
01:45	emezeske	mk: If you want to change the "2" by itself, you'd have to do some work up front
01:45	mk	how do I go about mutating it?
01:45	emezeske	You could make 2 an atom
01:45	emezeske	(defonce multiplier (atom 2))
01:45	emezeske	(defn f [n] (* 2 @multiplier))
01:46	emezeske	Then, somewhere else, (swap! multiplier (fn [old] new-value ...))
01:46	emezeske	That would mutate multiplier in a thread-safe manner
01:47	mk	what does defonce do? the doc's "root value" is confusing
01:47	emezeske	It just ensures that if you reload the namespace the atom doesn't get redefined
01:47	mk	or, what is a "root value"?
01:47	emezeske	It's not strictly necessary, but it can avoid some confusion
01:48	emezeske	I probably shouldn't try to explain the root value, etc -- I would probably not get it right
01:48	emezeske	You can read the docs on Vars if you want to understand that
01:48	mk	oh, I see. Does it redefine if the value has later been removed from the namespace?
01:48	emezeske	I'm not sure, I would guess so, though
01:50	mk	I want to mutate the multiplier while programming via the repl... is atom appropriate for that?
01:53	emezeske	Yep!
01:53	mk	then why don't we use atoms even for definitions?
01:54	emezeske	Well, Vars and atoms have different concurrency properties
01:54	emezeske	Like when you mutate a Var, it's usually done in a thread-local context
01:54	emezeske	Vars are not good for sharing state across threads
01:54	Raynes	emezeske: I think fs's cwd mechanism is a good example of it.
01:54	Raynes	(of how vars work)
01:55	emezeske	Raynes: Yeah, it does, IIRC
01:55	emezeske	Raynes: cwd is a dynamic var, right?
01:55	Raynes	But I don't know, since I might have force pushed a branch at some point. I damaged the universe like that once, much like Walter's crossing over in Fringe.
01:55	emezeske	Fringe, that show with Spock?
01:56	Raynes	emezeske: Haha
01:56	Raynes	Yes.
01:56	emezeske	:)
01:56	Raynes	emezeske: But yes, it is a dynamic var. The fun bit is that you can set it with set!.
01:56	mk	what is a dynamic var?
01:56	Raynes	The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
01:58	emezeske	mk: It's a Var created like (def ^:dynamic x 5) that can be changed in a thread-local dynamic scope via things like (binding ...)
01:58	emezeske	mk: But for more detail, the docs are king :)
01:58	mk	when I mutate a var using the repl, and there's a thread busy crunching data, isn't that out of thread-local?
01:59	emezeske	Yeah, although if you set the root binding (as you mentioned) I do believe it would affect other threads
01:59	emezeske	But really, that is what atoms are for
02:00	mk	so in cases where we suspect that we might end up modifying code in this way, we should use atoms throughout?
02:01	mk	this seems strange
02:02	mk	if we're both writing the same code, and you do it in one go, while I do it interactively using the repl, my code now has atoms everywhere while yours doesn't...
02:02	emezeske	Well, if you reload a namespace with (require ... :reload), all the Vars get changed
02:02	emezeske	And if you really want to, you can set! a Var
02:03	emezeske	I suggest you do some more reading on clojure's concurrency primitives and make an informed decision
02:06	mk	if you look at the first example, with the multiplier - if I've chosen to use the repl to fine-tune the value of multiplier, I end up making it an atom. But if you know what you want the multiplier to be, you'd just (def multiplier 7.23), without using an atom. This doesn't seem strange?
02:07	mk	we end up with the same code, but many of my values are wrapped in atoms. Do I then just remove all of the atom definitions, when I'm done messing via the repl?
02:08	emezeske	This would be a good place to start: http://clojure.org/concurrent_programming
02:09	ro_st	anyone know of a pubsub impl in cljs that isn't the shoreleave one?
02:09	ro_st	it's broken and ohpauleez is AWOL :-)
02:10	mk	emezeske: is there something particular there that I should read?
02:10	ro_st	also, does anyone use enfocus? i'm curious as to whether i can use it to focus a textfield
02:11	emezeske	mk: I would start with reading about Vars and Atoms, to see what the differences/similarities are.
02:12	emezeske	mk: There's no clear answer about which is "better" -- they are different, and which one you want depends a lot on context
02:21	meenal	Hi, can someone please point me to a good example of slingshot ex-info/ex-data in clojure?
02:21	meenal	I am trying to use slingshot to avoid writing custom exceptions
02:24	emezeske	meenal: I happen to know that https://github.com/cemerick/friend/blob/master/src/cemerick/friend.clj uses throw+ and try+
02:24	emezeske	meenal: It's not meant to be an example, but that was the first place I saw slingshot in action
02:26	michaelr`	Is there a way to destructure in one compojure route definition all of the following: a paramter from params with an aliased name, user-agent header, all headers, all session? Something like this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3914
02:27	meenal	thanks emezeske. i will try to read thro' the code
02:34	michaelr`	ok
02:34	michaelr`	that's the way you do it: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3915
02:34	michaelr`	(money for nothing and chicks for free)
02:36	muhoo	the fun thing about slingshot is it shows the local variables at play when the exception happened
02:38	ro_st	michaelr`: i think destructuring is clojure's MVP
02:38	ro_st	it is insanely useful
02:46	y3di	do the prismatic guys ever stop by this channel?
02:46	ro_st	you also want their data store abstractions? :-)
02:47	ro_st	really enjoyed that guy's talk
02:47	emezeske	ro_st: at clojure/west?
02:48	ro_st	yes, that's the one
02:48	ro_st	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Why-Prismatic-Goes-Faster-With-Clojure
02:48	emezeske	ro_st: yeah, that was great
02:48	emezeske	Those guys are using the #&*? out of clojure
02:49	ro_st	it rocks. i wish more big guys would talk about how they use it
02:49	emezeske	aye
02:49	ro_st	convince the fence sitters to take a look
02:49	michaelr`	ro_st: minimal viable product?
02:49	ro_st	most valued pfeature -grin-
02:49	emezeske	*pheature
02:50	michaelr`	oh, we add those all the time to our applications ;)
03:12	ro_st	contains? checks if a key is in a collection. how do i check for the presence of a value in a collection? in this case, a vector?
03:13	DaoWen	I think you can use (.indexOf v element)
03:13	ro_st	whoa. didn't think i'd have to use java!
03:13	DaoWen	of you could use (some #{element} vector)
03:13	emezeske	ro_st: Maybe some?
03:14	emezeske	Hah, DaoWen beat me to it :)
03:15	DaoWen	:)
03:16	djcoin	Is there a problem using .indexOf (besides "it's java") ?
03:16	ro_st	some does the trick. just found it weird that i'd have to drop to java to find that index. of course, i don't have to, because (some) does the job
03:21	DaoWen	ro_st: if you need to check for the presence of a value in a vector, you might think about switching to a set
03:21	DaoWen	it depends on what you're doing of course
03:21	DaoWen	how big your vector is, how often you need to check, etc
03:22	ro_st	i could use a set, but in this case i want the order items were added to remain in place
03:22	DaoWen	one thing I've done in the past is keep a vector AND a set
03:25	emezeske	ro_st: There is a sorted-set if you need it
03:26	DaoWen	emezeske: I think he's trying to maintain things in the order they were added, which isn't necessarily a sorted order
03:26	emezeske	Oh, quite right!
03:26	ro_st	yup
03:26	emezeske	There might or might not be some beer in me
03:27	ro_st	as long as you don't drunk-commit -grin-
03:27	emezeske	I have had to revert drunk commits before, I'm sad to admit
03:30	ro_st	oh dear :-)
03:41	muhoo	wow, nrepl in the hizzy
03:41	muhoo	successfully upgraded to emacs24, latest nrepl.el, and pdo is working
03:46	muhoo	lein2 pdo cljsbuild auto, repl :headless
03:46	ro_st	sounds awesome
03:46	ro_st	what's pdo? :)
03:46	muhoo	ro_st: github.com/raynes/lein-pdo
03:46	ro_st	ok so you have cljsbuild running, and a headless repl, so that you can nrepl in from emacs?
03:46	muhoo	a nifty plugin that lets one lein process handle multiple tasks in parallel. like, a cljsbuild, and a headless repl
03:46	muhoo	ya
03:46	ro_st	i would love to see your emacs and project.clj config for this
03:46	ro_st	please :-)
03:46	muhoo	ro_st: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3918
03:46	ro_st	that looks straightforward
03:46	ro_st	i guess i'm more curious about nrepl.el and how it works with clojure-mode
03:46	muhoo	there's no .emacs , i just manually am loading nrepl.el for now, from github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el
03:46	ro_st	i'm using emacs-live which has swank-clojure and clojure-mode all glommed together
03:46	muhoo	M-x load-file RET /home/clojure/src/nrepl.el/nrepl.el RET
03:47	ro_st	reads nrepl.el issues
03:47	muhoo	easy enough to just read nrepl.el, it's about 1200 lines
03:48	ro_st	i'll make time to play with it this afternoon
03:48	ro_st	it looks great
03:48	muhoo	i find it a lot more approachable than swank, then again, i'm not an old-skool swank user
03:48	muhoo	seems like the keybindings are the same though
03:54	ro_st	cool
04:12	ro_st	i guess if i want a vector sorted, i should use sorted-set or sorted-map, and then (vec) afterwards?
04:13	ejackson	or just call sort !
04:18	amalloy	if you want a vector sorted, you probably don't want a vector
04:22	ro_st	ejackson: i don't see the fn you refer to on http://clojuredocs.org/quickref/Clojure%20Core
04:23	ro_st	amalloy: i actually want a sorted-map, but sorted-map sorts on the key, not on the value, and i need to sort on a field in the map that makes up the values in my map
04:23	amalloy	ro_st: that's a heap
04:23	ro_st	this map is an atom, which makes using a sorted-set problematic (ito updating values in this data)
04:26	ro_st	amalloy: are you referring to heap-sorting?
04:26	ejackson	,(sort [12 4 8 23 1])
04:26	clojurebot	(1 4 8 12 23)
04:26	amalloy	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heap_%28data_structure%29
04:27	ejackson	but amalloy is correct,
04:28	ro_st	ok, this is well out of my comfort zone. i never did compsci :-) can i use a heap/heap sort in cljs?
04:29	ro_st	in this case, i don't need lazy, as it's to sort a series of models in preparation for displaying a list of html nodes
04:30	ro_st	so the full collection will be realised. so i'll start with (sort comp coll) for now
04:59	ro_st	sort fns usually return 1 0 −1 based on whether A is less than, equal to, or greater than B
04:59	ro_st	i see clojure's sort uses true and false. what do i return for the equality case? i won't have this case now, just curious.
05:14	DaoWen	ro_st: I know tis is a bit late, but you might want to use sort-by rather than sort since it sounds like you're sorting on a specific field in a data structure. that will keep your comp function simpler.
05:15	ro_st	yeah, i found that :-)
05:15	ro_st	thanks
05:37	ro_st	surely there's a better way to print vectors and maps to the js console than cljs.core.ObjMap and cljs.core.PersistentVector trees?
05:38	ro_st	reads himera again
05:48	ejackson	ro_st: I just log em to the the console
05:49	ro_st	yeah but having to drill down into PersistentVectors is sucky compared to plain js arrays
05:50	DaoWen	ro_st: what do you mean by "drill down?"
05:51	ro_st	http://rationalist.co.za/uploads/Screen%20Shot%202012-07-31%20at%2011.50.38%20AM-rS07Grmbqs.PNG
05:52	ro_st	i guess i could augment my log fn to dig into these and show the internal items i'm interested in
08:44	lotia	greetings all. new projects, relative noob to clojure. nrepl or swank for new projects.
08:44	lotia	whats better?
08:44	ro_st	nrepl is still brand new
08:45	ro_st	that said, it's probably better for you to learn that and grow with it than take swank on and switch
08:45	lotia	i ask because i'm starting a new pallet project using lein2 and want to be able to eval forms from within my files.
08:45	ro_st	i believe nrepl does that no problem
08:45	lotia	so using emacs, i'd need to get the nrepl client
08:46	lotia	ro_st: thanks. anywhere there's a list of advantages, disadvantages of either? or are the roughly equivalent for most use cases?
08:47	ro_st	swank is about to be deprecated, once the guys doing nrepl get it to the point they're happy with it
08:47	ro_st	coupla weeksish
08:47	lotia	ro_st: thanks
08:48	lotia	anyone using el-get for their emacs here?
08:54	ro_st	i'm using emacs24 for osx
08:54	ro_st	comes with package-install.. i just added the marmalade repo
09:01	lotia	thanks ro_st
09:04	cshell	does anyone know how to pretty print to a file in clojure?
09:04	XPherior	Anyone ever seen the error message "Incorrect table name ''" in Korma?
09:05	XPherior	I darn sure specified a name.
09:10	gfredericks	cshell: at the very least you could (spit "foo.cljj" (with-out-str (pprint data)))
09:10	gfredericks	and improve from there for any needed perf
09:10	gfredericks	there might be a pprint-str also, not sure
09:17	cshell	gfredericks: cool, i'll give that a shot - thanks!
09:20	ro_st	XPherior: what does the sql dry-run look like?
09:20	XPherior	ro_st: I just noticed that my usage of create-db is returning a PersistentArrayMap. That can't be right, heh.
09:21	ro_st	haha, um, no, probably not :-)
09:23	XPherior	ro_st: Have a look. https://gist.github.com/eecf4c8857596c73b72f
09:23	XPherior	Line 3 is still returning an array map. Weird.
09:25	ro_st	XPherior: db contains an execution result, where i think you actually want a defdb definition
09:26	XPherior	ro_st: I need to create the connection dynamically. I don't know what the DB name is at compile time.
09:27	ro_st	i get that. i speak under correction, but as far as i know korma uses static defdb definitions.
09:27	ro_st	you can probably overcome this by doing what defdb does yourself
09:28	XPherior	I basically am. Check it out. https://github.com/ibdknox/Korma/blob/master/src/korma/db.clj#L60
09:33	ro_st	ah
09:33	ro_st	weird
09:35	ro_st	so, presumably there's something different about the spec there and the one you're providing?
09:40	XPherior	Looks like it, yeah.
09:43	antoineB	hello, how can i construct a list from 2 list?
09:43	antoineB	(apply list '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)) => ((1 2 3) 1 2 3) where i expect (1 2 3 1 2 3)
09:44	xeqi	$findfn [1 2 3] [1 2 3] [1 2 3 1 2 3]
09:44	lazybot	[clojure.set/union clojure.core/lazy-cat clojure.core/concat clojure.core/into]
09:44	xeqi	I'd use concat there
09:47	antoineB	simply concat, thanks
09:51	leafw	what is the current authoritative repository for clojure monads? Used to be part of clojure-contrib
09:51	leafw	but now clojure-contrib is fragmented
09:53	xeqi	~contrib
09:53	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
09:54	xeqi	leafw: looks like https://github.com/clojure/algo.monads/
09:55	leafw	xeqi: thanks. So does that mean that it is included in the main clojure repository?
09:55	leafw	I see, no
09:55	leafw	it is in its own
09:56	xeqi	leafw: no, you'll need something like [org.clojure/algo.monads "0.1.0"] as a dependency
09:57	leafw	thanks
09:57	mk	how do I get lein repl started using 1.3?
09:59	mk	or, does anyone's lein repl start using (clojure-version) 1.3 by default?
10:00	xeqi	mk: make a project using 1.3 and then run `lein repl` in it
10:02	mk	I was running it in a random dir to get access to a repl. I suppose I can just run clojure instead of lein repl?
10:02	mk	is there any difference between the two?
10:03	ToxicFrog	mk: 'lein repl' sets up the CLASSPATH and stuff appropriate to your project, and I think also uses jline automatically
10:04	ToxicFrog	If you don't have a project and just want a Clojure repl, 'clojure' (if your distro comes with it) or 'java -cp ...jline.jar:...clojure.jar jline.ConsoleRunner clojure.main' if it doesn't should do the trick.
10:05	ToxicFrog	Or just 'java -jar /path/to/clojure.jar' if you don't care about readline support.
10:07	mk	yeah, just clojure seems to work. I was under the impression that lein repl was enhanced in some way, though I'm not sure what way that would be since it's about as bland as it gets
10:11	mk	is the only difference between bigint and biginteger the hashcode?
10:12	leafw	how does one specify a local jar in the project.clj?
10:12	leafw	as in, where does one put it so that it ends up in the classpath and it is read as a dependency?
10:13	ifesdjeen	leafw: pretty much the same way as you would do with maven
10:13	ifesdjeen	leafw: you can add :repositories {"local" ...
10:13	leafw	ifesdjeen: I have no idea how to use maven
10:13	ifesdjeen	point to (.toUri (java.io.File. "maven_repository_path"))
10:13	leafw	lein is supposed to shelter us all from maven
10:13	ifesdjeen	:)
10:13	ifesdjeen	yeah, it certainly does
10:14	leafw	so the .toUri you add in the project.clj?
10:14	ifesdjeen	yup
10:14	leafw	ok
10:14	leafw	thanks
10:14	leafw	wouldn't need to if org.clojure/algo.monads "0.1.3-SNAPSHOT" existed.
10:14	ifesdjeen	leafw: hm, people say that you can just say :repositories {"local" "path" }
10:15	leafw	the git repos pom.xml says that's the current.
10:15	leafw	ok
10:15	ifesdjeen	oh my, there's even plugin for that :D
10:15	ifesdjeen	https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-localrepo
10:15	leafw	lein is as complicated as it gets, mostly from lack of documentation.
10:16	ifesdjeen	so far didn't get much issues with that...
10:16	leafw	the default project.clj could have, commented out, all possible examples with a one-liner explaining what they are for. Like for the "local"
10:16	leafw	thanksf or the help ifesdjeen
10:17	ifesdjeen	leafw: npnp
10:17	ifesdjeen	hope it does it's job :)
10:17	leafw	ever since the break down of contrib, I have not been able to use any contrib projects.
10:17	leafw	so trying again
10:18	uvtc	leafw: jumping in to the middle of this, but if you're looking for a project.clj with all possibilities, see https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj .
10:18	DaoWen	mk: no, the difference between bigint and biginteger is not just the hashcode
10:18	leafw	thanks uvtc
10:19	uvtc	leafw: y/w. Also, if you're new, you might find this useful: http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/clojure/brief-beginners-guide/
10:19	mk	DaoWen: what are the main differences?
10:19	DaoWen	sorry, I was looking up a URL
10:19	DaoWen	http://grepcode.com/file/repo1.maven.org/maven2/org.clojure/clojure/1.3.0-alpha5/clojure/lang/BigInt.java
10:20	DaoWen	that's the BigInt class
10:20	DaoWen	you can see right at the top that it wraps both a long and a BigInteger
10:21	leafw	uvtc: thanks, not new to clojure, but haven't used it for 2 years
10:21	leafw	and now it's all different. Still no good IDE unfortunately.
10:21	DaoWen	mk: BigInt will use the native operations for long when possible
10:22	DaoWen	but if the number gets to big then it uses the arbitrary-precision BigInteger methods to do operations like add, multiply, etc
10:23	ifesdjeen	leafw: not sure what would make it for a good ide for you, i use it with emacs + paredit + clojure-mode + autocomplete-mode + swank
10:23	leafw	lein is full of magic that I find hard to grasp. For example, a function defined in core.clj, how do I refer to it from project.clj? core.main having written (defn main ..) doesn't do it.
10:23	ifesdjeen	works really really well for me
10:23	leafw	core/main ?
10:24	leafw	ifesdjeen: emacs destroys my hands. vim, eclipse, or a plain text editor I prefer.
10:24	ifesdjeen	ah
10:24	ifesdjeen	well, only problem with vim I have is that it's not playing with lips as well as emacs does
10:24	DaoWen	leafw: I use lein with vim
10:24	mk	DaoWen: I see, thanks
10:24	ifesdjeen	but i do feel very comfy with it, so dunno)
10:25	leafw	DaoWen: I am at the moment.
10:25	DaoWen	nice :)
10:25	DaoWen	do you use slime.vim?
10:25	leafw	DaoWen: so how does one refer to a fn named "main" in core.clj from project.clj?
10:25	leafw	it's not core.main
10:25	leafw	and not core/main
10:25	xeqi	projectname.core/main ?
10:26	DaoWen	try that ^
10:26	DaoWen	you need the fully-qualified namespace
10:26	DaoWen	leafw: what does the (ns) declaration look like at the top of your core.clj file?
10:26	leafw	project is parse-bib, so parse_bib.core/main fails, and parse_bib.core.mains fails too
10:26	DaoWen	try
10:27	DaoWen	parse-bib.core/main
10:27	DaoWen	(hyphen instead of underscore)
10:27	DaoWen	if that doesn't work
10:28	DaoWen	did you :require it in your ns declaration in the current file?
10:28	leafw	DaoWen: the default
10:29	DaoWen	leafw: what exactly are you trying to do? are you trying to declare the main method in project.clj for a runnable jar or something?
10:29	leafw	DaoWen: parse-bib.core
10:30	antoineB	how could i do a recursive call without a named function?
10:30	leafw	I am doing the simplest thing possible: (ns parse-bib.core) (defn main [] (println "ok"))
10:30	DaoWen	and you just want to call that function from another file?
10:30	leafw	no, I want to define main as the main function in project,clj
10:30	DaoWen	(another namespace)
10:30	DaoWen	ok
10:30	leafw	so either lein doesn't like hyphens
10:31	leafw	in the project name
10:31	leafw	or I don't get it
10:31	Cheiron	How to get the name of a called function? for logging purpose
10:31	leafw	tried all combinations
10:31	DaoWen	yeah, it's weird
10:31	DaoWen	you actually have to declare it as (defn -main [& args] ...) in core.clj
10:31	leafw	that's my experience with lein always: can't get over the simplest things. There is a set of expectations that are not written anywhere about how lein works.
10:31	leafw	trying that
10:32	DaoWen	I guess that's the clojure magic for defining a java main method
10:32	leafw	(reads like static public final void main(String[] args) ....)
10:33	DaoWen	but then in your project.clj you just give the class
10:33	DaoWen	parse-bib.core
10:33	leafw	still doesn't work. So, removing the hyphen from the project name ...
10:33	DaoWen	also, in parse-bib.core you need to tell it to :gen-class
10:33	leafw	I see: so :main is not the function, but the name of the file
10:33	DaoWen	(ns parse-bib.core (:gen-class))
10:33	DaoWen	:main is the name of the class
10:34	xeqi	:main is the namespace
10:34	leafw	finally, it worked
10:34	leafw	thanks
10:34	uvtc	leafw: re. "set of expectations that are not written anywhere about how lein works" ... if you find that lein is making an assumption and not telling you about it, and it's not documented, I'd suggest filing a bug.
10:34	leafw	so lein does respect hyphens in the project name
10:34	leafw	it is :main in project.clj that asks not for the main function but for the class in which a function named -main exists ...
10:34	Cheiron	I'm passing a function to another function, i want to print the name of the passed function. how to do it?
10:34	DaoWen	I don't think these are so much lein quirks as just clojure-java interop quirks
10:35	leafw	uvtc: doing so
10:35	DaoWen	leafw: I think :main is kind of like the class manifest in a JAR file
10:35	DaoWen	it asks for a "main" class
10:35	leafw	because the sample.project.clj doesn't say anything about it in :main
10:36	DaoWen	you could have any number of classes in a JAR with a main method with the legal signature, but you specify one as the "main" class
10:36	antoineB	i get it i just set a name to a fn: (fn f[a] (+ 1 (f a)))
10:36	leafw	DaoWne: the point here is, how is a novice user of lein ever to find out?
10:36	DaoWen	I've only been using lein for a couple of weeks
10:36	DaoWen	I googled how to make a runnable JAR
10:37	DaoWen	there are lots of blog posts on the subject :)
10:38	uvtc	leafw: Note, there's also a #leiningen channel.
10:39	Cheiron	when passing a function and parameters to macro, how to call it? ~(func ~@params) ?
10:39	leafw	uvtc: I hope not to have to use it, thanks
10:43	DaoWen	leafw: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/preview/doc/TUTORIAL.md#uberjar
10:43	DaoWen	leifw: that section on the uberjar option explains everything on making a runnable jar
10:44	leafw	DaoWen: the point here is to use a jar from the file system
10:44	leafw	not to export the project to a jar
10:44	leafw	turns out the :repositories is only for looking for dependencies
10:44	leafw	what a game of guessing. Second guessing the maven developer/superuser that wrote lein
10:45	leafw	lein is wonderful, if one doesn't want to do something out of the ordinary
10:45	leafw	I was hoping referring to a jar would be that
10:46	leafw	maybe :javac-options would let me add a -cp
10:46	DaoWen	leafw: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2404426/leiningen-how-to-add-dependencies-for-local-jars
10:47	leafw	uvtc: so I am moving to #leiningen, looks like the wall is high
10:47	xeqi	~repeatability
10:47	clojurebot	repeatability is crucial for builds, see https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Repeatability
10:47	leafw	DaoWen: thank you. The top answer is a hack.
10:47	xeqi	that explains why lein doesn't want to just include jars from the file system
10:48	uvtc	leafw: looks like the author of lein (technomancy) is not around right now. I'd suggest bringing up your questions again next time he's around.
10:48	DaoWen	leafw: the second answer seems better, but I don't know how to make a private maven repo.... but it looks like the third post explains how
10:48	leafw	I take note. Surely there are good reasons not to depend on a jar but on a repository instead. It's just baffling to a newcomer.
10:49	leafw	there is room for a book on how to create leinigen projects.
10:50	uvtc	A book? Maybe a booklet. Or a pamphlet. Or a leaflet. :)
10:50	DaoWen	leafw: I agree with you there. what if I want to use a JAR that's not in the maven repository? what if I'm using a proprietary JAR that can't be included in the repository? it seems like setting up a local repository just for one JAR in one project is a little bit overkill.
10:50	leafw	uvtc: no, a book, with 10-pgae chapters: a project with jars, why is (defn -main [& args]... needed, and so on.
10:50	Cheiron	Hi, would you please take a look to my with-try macro attempt: http://pastie.org/4365552
10:51	DaoWen	leafw: https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-localrepo
10:51	leafw	DaoWen: the "hack" of ptting the jar in /lib should do it
10:51	leafw	so there is way
10:51	leafw	it is just not elegant
10:51	leafw	neither explained anywhere
10:51	DaoWen	leafw: looks like that plugin goes and make the local repo for you, and then you can add jars with a simple command
10:51	uvtc	leafw: writing good documentation is tricky. If you have any specific feedback on how to reorganize the lein docs to improve clarity, I'm sure technomancy would be all ears.
10:52	leafw	uvtc: indeed, complaining is not useful beyond a point.
10:52	TimMc	leafw: Don't put things in lib.
10:52	TimMc	It won't work, that's why it's not mentioned.
10:53	leafw	TimMC: it didn't work, likely because the algo.monads-0.1.3-SNAPSHOT.jar doesn't work with clojure-1.4.0. Just found that out
10:53	Cheiron	ah, ok. e# :)
10:54	uvtc	Cheiron: e#?
10:54	leafw	I am looking forward to join the priesthood of being able to use lein. Can't be that hard to use algo.monads in a clojure project.
10:54	Cheiron	(catch Exception e#)
10:54	TimMc	leafw: No, it won't work (at least in 1.x) because lib gets cleared.
10:54	TimMc	Are you using the 2.x preview? I came in late.
10:55	leafw	TimMc: using lein from 2 years ago, updated it self to 1.6 or so
10:55	TimMc	Yeah, ./lib is a local cache. Lein 1.x will delete the contents when updating deps.
10:56	uvtc	leafw: Yeah, I'm not sure I'm following exactly what the problem you're having is, but if you want to use a contrib library, I put up some basic notes at http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/clojure/brief-beginners-guide/libs-management-and-use.html#using-contrib-libraries .
10:56	dgrnbrg	hello clojurians
10:56	leafw	so algo.monads-0.1.1-SNAPSHOT exists, but can't run with 1.2, 1.3 or 1.4: error is Exception in thread "main" java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/tools/macro__init.class or clojure/tools/macro.clj on classpath:
10:56	mk	Cheiron: why does e# work?
10:56	dgrnbrg	i'm having an issue getting a namespace that uses a macro for doing dynamic codegen to compile efficientyl
10:56	dgrnbrg	is there a way to get the macroexpansion to occur at AOT time?
10:57	Cheiron	i think because it generates a name, e could be bind somewhere else
10:57	leafw	uvtc: the program I am writing depends on algo.monads. I thought it would be nice to use lein to aleviate the dependency issues, but it is resulting in me wasting your time
10:57	Cheiron	mk: variable capture issue of other Lisps
10:57	uvtc	leafw: Oh, no waste of time. :) Sorry if that came out wrong.
10:58	leafw	sorry, didnt mean to make it sound harsh on you, rather on me (I am fumbling with lein when I expected a smooth ride)
10:58	leafw	so does anybody know what clojure version would work with algo.monads?
10:59	DaoWen	Cheiron: you are right, the e# syntax helps to avoid variable capture
10:59	leafw	uvtc: I see in your tutorial that the right approach is to query first maven central
10:59	mk	what is that syntax called?
10:59	TimMc	gensyn
10:59	TimMc	*gensym
11:00	TimMc	"generate (unique) symbol"
11:00	leafw	a pity maven central has 0.1.0 and not 0.1.3 for algo.monads
11:00	TimMc	&[`[e# e#] `[e# e#]]
11:00	lazybot	⇒ [[e__18236__auto__ e__18236__auto__] [e__18237__auto__ e__18237__auto__]]
11:01	uvtc	DaoWen: what is "variable capture"?
11:01	xeqi	leafw: looks like the algo.monads test suite passes on >=1.2.0 http://build.clojure.org/job/algo.monads-test-matrix/
11:01	DaoWen	uvtc: name capture
11:01	uvtc	DaoWen: what is "capture"? :)
11:02	DaoWen	uvtc: it happens with macros. Cheirion was trying to make a try/catch-like macro
11:02	leafw	xeqi: thanks
11:02	uvtc	DaoWen: Ah. Will research further next time I'm reading about macros. Thanks.
11:02	mk	I'm looking at clojure.org/reader, and it has nothing about # suffix. Where are the docs on this?
11:02	DaoWen	uvtc: what are you reading?
11:03	TimMc	mk: It's really the syntax-quote that does it.
11:03	leafw	xeqi: maven central has 0.1.0 for algo-monads, but setting it as dependency and then "lein run" doesn't download the jar into /lib, and fails with "Could not locate clojure/algo/monads__init.class or clojure/algo/monads.clj on classpath"
11:04	uvtc	DaoWen: I mean that I wanted to know what the term "capture" meant, and you pointed out that it has to do with macros, and at the moment I've only skimmed the documentation on macros.
11:04	leafw	ok "lein deps" did it
11:04	leafw	would have expected that to hppen as fallback from lein run
11:05	xeqi	leafw: that would be my expectation too, we try to make sure all reuired tasks are run in lein2
11:05	mk	TimMc: thanks, I see that in the docs now, where it says ends with '#'
11:05	DaoWen	uvtc: "capture" happens when a name declared in a macro conflicts with a name already declared in the scope where it's used, so the macro "captures" the user's attempts to reference the binding they declared--and bad stuff happens
11:05	xeqi	not sure how well that was done in lein1, esp not if you have n older version
11:05	leafw	xeqi: nice to hear there is a better version of lein in the works
11:06	leafw	xeqi: using lein 1.6.1.1
11:06	uvtc	DaoWen: Thanks. :)
11:07	leafw	finally ready to go; thanks uvtc, xeqi and DaoWen.
11:15	TimMc	uvtc: There are two kinds of capture (maybe one has a different name): 1) Macro introduces a binding that shadows an existing lexical binding, 2) macro's introduced binding is shadowed by an internal lexical binding in the expansion.
11:15	TimMc	I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a good example of the second.
11:18	jsabeaudry	Is it new that cljsbuild triggers a compilation when a clj file changes and not only when a cljs file changes?
11:20	uvtc	TimMc: thanks for the info. Added to my own notes for when I dig into macros. :)
11:21	DaoWen	TimMc: (fn [x] (let [loop #(apply prn %&)] (loop 1)))
11:22	uvtc	TimMc, DaoWen : Previously, I'd used the term "capture" to refer to pieces of regexes that matched. Like \1 and $1.
11:24	uvtc	s/I'd used/I'd only used/
11:24	DaoWen	uvtc: this is a big problem in computer science--we re-use words way too much and give them way too many different meanings. I believe the "name capture" idea originally comes from the Lambda Calculus.
11:25	uvtc	Yeah. Trouble is, if you invent too many new words, you end up with too much jargon. :)
11:25	TimMc	It's a problem everywhere.
11:26	DaoWen	haha, good point.
11:27	DaoWen	oh wow, I just realized my example was totally messed up
11:28	entel	has anyone got the noir plugin to work with leinengen 2? is it even possible?
11:29	DaoWen	entel: you might want to try #leiningen
11:30	entel	DaoWen: ok thanks
11:37	m0smith	Any clojurescript gurus around? I am getting this not too helpful error: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: Only :refer-clojure, :require, :require-macros, :use and :use-macros libspecs supported
11:37	m0smith	(#{:use-macros :require-macros :require :use} k)
11:37	nDuff	m0smith: Can you gist (or otherwise pastebin) your ns declaration?
11:38	m0smith	(ns crossfire.board (use [crossfire.protocol.location :only [display open?]]))
11:38	melipone	hello
11:38	nDuff	m0smith: ...so, first, that should be :use
11:39	melipone	how do a get a list of rows from an Incanter matrix?
11:39	m0smith	nDuff: you are a genius, thanks
11:40	TimMc	melipone: Try seq.
11:41	melipone	I tried seq but it still gives me a matrix back not a list of rows
11:43	melipone	timmc: sorry, appearances are deceiving. it does behave like a list of rows
11:43	m0smith	nDuff: now I get SEVERE: crossfire.board:4: ERROR - required "crossfire.protocol.location" namespace never provided
11:44	m0smith	I am using cljsc, where does it expect to be compiling from?
11:48	goodieboy	Anyone know of a leiningen plugin that would provide the ability to download resources from s3, by looking at a config map in project.clj?
11:48	goodieboy	... s3, or some other url
11:49	DaoWen	meliphone: I think the Incanter Matrix class supports the .toArray method, which returns a double[][] -- which may or may not be helpful
11:52	uvtc	Just added an example to http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/some-fn .
11:53	uvtc	Incidentally, it would be pretty cool if there were a way for the site to send an automated message every time someone added an example.
11:53	uvtc	I mean, an irc message to this channel.
12:10	nDuff	m0smith: I'd have to look at the source for the file containing crossfire.protocol.location.
12:16	augustl	when I stop and restart my "lein ring server-headless", the :session key is not present in the first request, even though the :cookies entry is there. How come?
12:16	augustl	in subsequent requests, the :session works fine
12:17	augustl	correction: the :session key is present, but is empty
12:17	augustl	a minor annoyance, but still an annoyance :)
12:18	technomancy	https://twitter.com/gghhzz/status/230335904097656833 woo go clojure.org
12:18	hiredman	augustl: the defalut session store is an in memory store, you kill the process you lose it
12:18	augustl	hiredman: I'm using the cookie store
12:18	augustl	so the full session is present in the cookie
12:20	augustl	technomancy: Google Closure is similar (not only in name): you basically need to buy a book
12:20	augustl	the docs on the Google Closure site are abysmal
12:21	hiredman	shrug
12:22	hiredman	I've gotten most of what I needed from the google closure api docs
12:22	hiredman	the real pain is often the css for the ui widgets is not really documented
12:23	mabes	,(doc realized?)
12:23	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if a value has been produced for a promise, delay, future or lazy sequence."
12:23	mabes	,(realized? (iterate inc 1))
12:23	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPending>
12:24	mabes	I am misunderstanding what the realized? doc string is telling me...
12:24	hiredman	,(realized? (next (iterate inc 1)))
12:24	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPending>
12:24	hiredman	fuh
12:24	hiredman	,(realized? (rest (iterate inc 1)))
12:24	clojurebot	false
12:25	hiredman	mabes: basically iterate doesn't produce it's fist item lazily, so it is not a lazy seq, but its rest is
12:26	mabes	hiredman: ah, got it.. ok, I can work with that. Thanks!
12:26	technomancy	wooooo eldoc in nrepl.el
12:27	m0smith	nDuff: https://github.com/m0smith/crossfire/blob/master/src/crossfire/protocol/location.clj
12:29	nDuff	m0smith: ...so that's .clj, not .cljs
12:29	m0smith	nDuff: yes I was hoping to make a cross-compatible code base
12:29	nDuff	ahh.
12:32	m0smith	would that confuse the cljs compiler?
12:32	nDuff	m0smith: Yes. lein-cljsbuild will automate making .cljs copies of the .clj files you want to use in both worlds for you.
12:32	nDuff	m0smith: ...I do suggest using it.
12:33	m0smith	nDuff: many thanks
12:33	technomancy	mmm... taste the rainbow: https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el/network
12:34	eggsby	hey technomancy have you had problems with large output from nrepl.el ?
12:35	technomancy	eggsby: no, but I can't say I've used it on projects with lots of output
12:36	pbostrom	augustl: when you restart the server, the session is not intialized until after you make the first request, the server looks at the cookie, recognizes it, then sticks something in the session for all subsequent requests
12:36	eggsby	technomancy: for me, something as simple as: (for [x (range 0 1000)] (println x " \| hi")) results in "error in process filter: could not decode object 1"
12:37	technomancy	eggsby: no problem here. are you on Emacs 24 and nrepl.el master?
12:37	eggsby	ya :(
12:37	eggsby	actually just marmalade nrepl
12:38	technomancy	there's been a fair bit of activity since then; might try the latest
12:38	eggsby	will do, thanks
12:40	mk	is there a swap! that returns the old value?
12:47	nDuff	m0smith: Pull request pending.
12:48	augustl	pbostrom: so even if I have a cookie session, it puts stuff in memory?
12:48	nDuff	Oof.
12:49	nDuff	...ignore that, please...
12:51	nDuff	(...so, the "ignore that" was in reference to the first rev of the pull request)
12:51	augustl	I assumed the :session values were added as soon as the middleware sees the cookie
12:52	TimMc	mk: Not anything in core.
12:53	TimMc	You could do something fancy with a side-effecting fn and another atom...
12:57	mk	I see. It looks like a watch might work too, at least for some purposes
12:57	m0smith	nDuff: I'll pull it now
13:06	m0smith	nDuff: that seems to have done the trick. Thanks again
13:10	pbostrom	august1: you should think of the cookie and session as two separate entities, if your app/service puts some key-value pair in the cookie, it will persist in the browser when you restart the server (depending on how the cookie is configured), if you put something into the session, it will persist in the server's memory by default (although I believe you can configure alternate session stores)
13:11	technomancy	question for anyone familiar with proxies: does it make sense to have one setting for HTTP proxies and a separate one for HTTPS?
13:11	Hodapp	technomancy: 'setting' in what sense?
13:12	technomancy	Hodapp: say you'd want to use a different proxy host for HTTPS?
13:12	technomancy	I'm ... not really sure
13:12	technomancy	basically I get all these feature requests for proxy support in Leiningen and I have no idea how proxies work or how people would expect them to be set =)
13:13	nDuff	technomancy: ...for a SOCKS proxy, it's typically the same one for all protocols
13:13	TimMc	(defn swap2! [a f & args](defn swap2! [a f] (let [old (promise)]
13:13	TimMc	(let [oldp (promise)
13:13	TimMc	f* (fn [oldv] (deliver oldp oldv) (apply f oldv args))]
13:13	TimMc	(swap! a f*) @oldp))
13:13	technomancy	Apache's HTTP client uses separate http.proxyHost vs https.proxyHost settings, so presumably there's a reason for that
13:13	nDuff	technomancy: ...but some shops _do_ have protocol-specific proxies rather than using SOCKS.
13:13	TimMc	mk: crud, I thought I had the one liner in my clipboard, but... there you go
13:13	technomancy	nDuff: that's what I was wondering; thanks
13:14	TimMc	mk: Rather: https://gist.github.com/3218623
13:22	m0smith	nDuff: One last question I hope. When I copy the resulting .js file to my webserver directory, it is looking for a deps.js but I can't see where that is supposed to come from
13:29	pbostrom	m0smith: I think it's a GClosure compiler thing, I get rid of it by putting this inline in the html: <script type="text/javascript"> var CLOSURE_NO_DEPS = true; </script>
13:30	nDuff	m0smith: set CLOJURE_NO_DEPS=true in your javascript before including it.
13:30	pbostrom	m0smith: before loading your .js file
13:30	nDuff	Ahh.
13:31	tufflax	Is it sane to want letmulti---local multimethods in a function?
13:31	m0smith	Thank you both. That got rid of that error.
13:32	m0smith	Now I just have to figure out how to get JS to call my code
13:33	rplevy	is jetty-util incompatible with ring-jetty-adapter, and if so does anyone know a version combination (or something) that is compatible?
13:35	rplevy	the stack trace is especially unhelpful here, but I get a classnotfound for org.eclipse.jetty.util.component.Destroyable
13:35	weavejester	rplevy: What's jetty-util?
13:37	emezeske	m0smith: (defn ^:export my-fn [] ...)
13:37	nDuff	emezeske: last I knew, m0smith wasn't using advanced compilation (yet).
13:37	emezeske	m0smith: That tells the google closure compiler to make that function available to JS even when advanced optimizations are on
13:37	emezeske	nDuff: Well, good to get in the habit now
13:37	nDuff	nod
13:38	nDuff	m0smith: ...so, it should just be your.module.name.your_function(args), that is, completely normal javascript calling convention
13:40	eggsby	hey thanks technomancy using the master branch fixed the problem
13:40	m0smith	nDuff: I look in the .js file and none of my code, namespaces, etc is in there. At least a naive search does not find it
13:47	nDuff	Hmm -- there's an error in the source, and cljsbuild is only reporting it once, silently failing on subsequent passes. That's annoying.
13:48	rplevy	nm I was just had the name of a class wrong because they changed it recently
13:48	rplevy	and jetty-utils is included already
13:49	m0smith	nDuff: Should I use require instead? Use is slightly more convienent is all
13:50	emezeske	nDuff: If you can reproduce this "only reporting an error once" problem, open a bug
13:52	nDuff	emezeske: Can, but not sure I have the time to build a minimal reproducer right now. Also, likely a lein-cljsbuild thing rather than a cljs thing proper.
13:53	m0smith	nDuff and emezeske: I was :use to include a file that defined a protocol. That would cause the error. Swtiching to :require fixed the error and makes more sense anyway
13:54	technomancy	m0smith: whaaaaat?
13:54	technomancy	I don't think that's possible
13:54	emezeske	nDuff: Well, if you aren't willing to make a repro, it's not getting fixed, because I have never seen that problem.
13:57	m0smith	technomancy: Debuggin a cljs problem.
13:57	technomancy	oh, ok; I know nothing about cljs
14:13	mk	is a var (setting aside dynamic scope) simply an atom but with only the reset! change semantic?
14:14	gtrak`	mk: vars are namespaced
14:14	gtrak`	I guess that's the dynamic-scoped bit
14:15	gtrak`	but they're also carry a thread-local stack for mutation, atoms are synchronous between all threads
14:15	gtrak`	s/they're/they
14:16	cemerick	saying "X is like an atom, but without the atomicity" is a curious comparison to try to make :-)
14:16	amalloy	cemerick: i don't think vars are missing any atomicity
14:17	amalloy	alter-var-root behaves like swap, and binding can't ever have contention/races
14:17	mk	isn't the stack only used in dynamic scope?
14:17	gtrak`	mk: stack is used on lookup
14:18	mk	but if there's nothing put on the stack using binding, or the var isn't defined dynamic in the first place (do I have that right?), then it's simply an atom, and it's not thread-local
14:18	gtrak`	it's not an atom...
14:19	mk	gtrak`: right, I mean that it might as well be
14:19	gtrak`	so... why would I prefer to use (def a (atom 0)) instead of (def a 0)?
14:20	mk	I have no idea, at the moment
14:20	foodoo	changing of (def a 0) is only intended for development purposes. Isn't that the issue?
14:21	Gnosis-	How does one decide whether to use an atom or a ref?
14:21	gtrak`	it might be more a statement of intent I guess
14:21	gtrak`	convention
14:21	amalloy	Gnosis-: use a ref if an atom lacks a feature you need
14:21	Gnosis-	ah, okay
14:22	mk	foodoo: I don't know. It's a bad idea to confused def with assignment, so perhaps that convention is there to avoid misleading those new to clojure
14:22	amalloy	the only features i can think of are: coordinating with other refs; being able to return something other than the current value from a swap! (that one can be worked around, but it's easier to just use a ref)
14:23	mk	but really, it seems like (def v ...), used to assign a new value to v, isn't that much different from (swap! ...)
14:23	gtrak`	swap! takes a function and does a compare-and-swap
14:23	gtrak`	spin-loops if it has to
14:23	mk	gtrak`: you're right, I meant reset!
14:23	gtrak`	right
14:25	pbostrom_	there may also be a time when you want to coordinate side effects with a single ref
14:26	gtrak`	looks like var roots follow volatile semantics, JLS only guarantees 32-bit reads to be atomic
14:26	mk	and yes, like amalloy said, alter-var-root covers swap! (and therefore compare-and-set!)
14:27	gtrak`	probably not a real issue if you use boxed numbers
14:27	mk	I was under the impression that atoms offered something in addition to vars, but really, vars are effectively atoms, and in addition they provide dynamic scope
14:28	gtrak`	mk: it's misleading to keep saying that
14:28	gtrak`	atoms and vars are implemented totally differently
14:28	mk	gtrak`: I welcome correction :)
14:28	gtrak`	and have different use-cases
14:28	cemerick	amalloy: Of course; s/atomicity/CAS, but that wouldn't have rolled off the keyboard as nicely.
14:28	gtrak`	well, you know, for these things I like to just look at the source code
14:29	hiredman	vars are interned, they are linking construct, not a state management construct
14:29	mk	gtrak`: it doesn't matter if something is implemented + 4 1 or + 1 4, it's still the same result, unless one is faster. Vars seem to offer all of the features that atoms do, and then some
14:30	mk	hiredman: they seem to have everything you need in order to manage state
14:30	gtrak`	vars are volatiles... atoms are AtomicReferences under the hood
14:30	mk	gtrak`: I'm not saying that one extends the other
14:31	mk	gtrak`: what do you mean by volatiles?
14:31	gtrak`	there's a java keyword 'volatile' that offers particular memory semantics
14:31	hiredman	mk: the semantics of swap! are clearly a compare and swap, alter-var-root's semantics are not really defined
14:32	gtrak`	I think even if semantics were the same, the argument is the same as using a global vs a local... don't
14:32	hiredman	multiple alter-var-root's from different threads can stomp on each other
14:32	hiredman	vars are a linking construct
14:32	mk	hiredman: I don't think swap! does comparison unless you implement that in the function (which you can)
14:32	hiredman	clojurebot: vars?
14:32	clojurebot	http://www.slideshare.net/mudphone/fun-with-vars
14:33	hiredman	clojurebot: vars \|are\| a linking construct
14:33	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
14:33	hiredman	mk: swap! is a CAS
14:33	hiredman	e.g. if the value of atom changes it reruns the functions on the new value
14:34	augustl	how do you call a Java constructor that takes varargs? Just passing (MyThing. foo bar baz) doesn't seem to work.
14:34	gtrak`	augustl: into-array
14:34	gtrak`	varargs are arrays in java
14:34	hiredman	at the jvm level vargs don't exist, the java compiler turns java varargs in to an array
14:35	mk	hiredman: I'm pretty sure alter-var-root does the same. "atomically alters the root binding by applying f..."
14:35	augustl	gtrak`: looking it up, thanks
14:36	hiredman	mk: incorrect
14:36	mk	what happens if the value changes?
14:37	gtrak`	turns out alterRoot is synchronized anyway, that's slower than a CAS generally
14:37	hiredman	mk: if you aren't going to read what I type I will also put you on ignore, I told you what happens already
14:38	TimMc	nDuff: map vector
14:38	mk	hiredman: sorry, it's possible that I missed what you said among the other messages, or didn't understand you. I'll read up
14:38	TimMc	nDuff: Possibility of infinite seq?
14:39	nDuff	TimMc: Not necessarily infinite, but big enough that memory use is a relevant concern.
14:39	mk	hiredman: I still don't see where you answered my question
14:40	nDuff	mk: I do.
14:41	nDuff	mk: <hiredman> e.g. if the value of atom changes it reruns the functions on the new value
14:41	mk	I'm not talking about atoms, I'm talking about vars
14:41	nDuff	...
14:41	nDuff	mk: you were given an example of a behavior atoms have that vars don't. That's pretty relevant.
14:42	mk	we're talking about alter-var-root. Doesn't that restart, in exactly the same way as atoms do?
14:43	mk	I could be wrong, but that's what I'm taking the documentation to mean when it says "atomically"
14:43	hiredman	no, it locks, unlike atoms
14:43	aphyr	What's the canonical way to do exponentiation in 1.3? add clojure.math.numeric-tower?
14:45	foodoo	clojure.math is not an official library, is it?
14:46	gtrak`	mk: CAS is a processor instruction, much more fine-grained than locking on the var object, you might get a similar result, but the semantics and implementation aren't the same
14:46	amalloy	aphyr: (reduce * (repeat n b)) is pretty easy if your exponent is an integer
14:47	mk	I see. So vars offer all the functionality of atoms, but in some cases atoms offer better performance at the cost of potentially executing (hopefully pure) functions repeatedly
14:47	aphyr	Yeah, kinda floored that this isn't builtin, haha
14:47	foodoo	I usually do (Math/pow a b)
14:47	gtrak`	yea, that's the whole point of CAS
14:47	aphyr	(need something that supports the rational types)
14:47	amalloy	aphyr: it is built in, you are on the jvm
14:47	zerokarmaleft	how large would a set of bindings in a let be before being considered non-idiomatic or bad style?
14:47	gtrak`	it's a case of cpu manufacturers pandering to software implementers
14:48	hiredman	~vars
14:48	clojurebot	vars are a linking construct
14:48	technomancy	zerokarmaleft: it depends on whether you're using them all in the body or using them to construct further bindings
14:48	amalloy	but seriously the core lib is so huge there's no reason to pollute it with operations that are easily constructed by composing existing stuff
14:48	mk	it should be added to that that vars offer all the same functionality as atoms
14:48	zerokarmaleft	technomancy: to construct further bindings, but the last set of bindings are also used in the body...for readability
14:49	aphyr	amalloy: just weird that there's +, -, *, /, but expt requires changing project.clj. First language I've ever used where that was the case, haha.
14:49	zerokarmaleft	it just smells...imperative, in a way
14:49	technomancy	zerokarmaleft: in that case I'd be comfortable letting it get pretty big, but consider whether you can't rewrite it using ->
14:49	foodoo	aphyr: well, you can still use (Math/floor x y)
14:50	foodoo	if you are on the JVM
14:50	mk	whenever vars and def are brought up, people suggest that they shouldn't be changed at runtime, hinting that the reason for this is some sort of concurrency issue ("use atoms instead when you want concurrency")
14:51	mk	but vars are as safe as atoms. Potentially more safe, since they block instead of repeatedly executing.
14:51	nDuff	mk: If nothing else, rebinding is going to make it hard on people reading your code.
14:51	hiredman	~vars
14:51	clojurebot	vars are a linking construct
14:51	technomancy	no
14:51	technomancy	they're less safe because they don't have to be dereferenced, so you can have mutability sneak into a function that looks pure
14:52	technomancy	don't do it
14:52	nDuff	(inc technomancy)
14:52	lazybot	⇒ 34
14:53	mk	technomancy: not sure that I follow how that might happen
14:54	amalloy	mk: (defn f [x] (+ x config/batch-size))
14:54	amalloy	is (f 10) always the same value or no?
14:55	joly	not referentially transparent if the var value is going to change
14:55	joly	that's bitten me before
14:56	technomancy	technically it's very difficult to write clojure functions that are guaranteed referentially transparent exactly because of alter-var-root and runtime-def, but for most purposes "referentially transparent unless someone does something completely daft" is perfectly fine.
14:57	aphyr	How do you feel about the use of dynamically bound vars for IO, though?
14:57	aphyr	e.g. print-dup, out, etc?
14:58	technomancy	aphyr: the presence of earmuffs in a function makes it obvious that a function isn't referentially transparent, so there's not much room for confusion
14:58	mk	I think I see. We want to make sure that we have an explicit @ (or deref) at the start of all such values
14:58	technomancy	well, and the whole IO thing of course
14:58	aphyr	Yeah, like (prn) is definitely not referentially transparent, not even in the fixed IO sense. ;-)
15:00	mk	I was initially worried about what was happening when I defn'd using the repl. I was under the impression that this might put the entire program into an invalid state
15:00	technomancy	mk: that happens in some other languages (ML-based ones in particular) since they don't have the concept of vars, your changes do not apply retroactively.
15:01	technomancy	different parts of the program will have access to a different version of your function
15:01	technomancy	(this is true of some Clojure constructs like defmacro and defprotocol, which is one of many reasons you should always use defn if you can)
15:02	mk	is this still the case in clojure, in some rare cases? for example, a thread in a long-term recurring function
15:02	technomancy	if it goes through a var, it's safe
15:02	technomancy	if it dereferences the var and holds on to the raw fn, then it will retain the old value
15:04	mk	ok, all of this is very good to know. I take it that the problems with mutation don't apply if I'm mutating things intentionally using the repl?
15:04	technomancy	right; the primary reason (possibly only reason?) vars are mutable is to support interactive development.
15:05	foodoo	they do, because you may have suprising results. But when in doubt, restart the repl
15:06	mk	foodoo: I'd like to try to know about those surprises, because if I'm using the repl to crunch a few hours of data, restarting isn't practical
15:06	foodoo	if you have some old functions that still exist in the repl but don't exist in your code
15:07	foodoo	and you accidentally invoke them again for whatever reason
15:07	mk	I take it that we covered the main ones (not going through a var, and defmacro/defprotocol)
15:08	technomancy	in web apps you often see stuff like (run-jetty #'myapp {:port 8080}) in order to pick up dev-time reloads of myapp
15:11	mk	the way I'm thinking of it now, atoms are for the program to modify, while vars are there for the programmer; keeping in mind that changing a var might make a transparent-looking function no longer transparent, they're both safe in that changing them usually won't break clojure
15:18	dnolen_	mk: also if you use a def to change the value of something that should be an atom the likelihood of another Clojure programmer using your lib will diminish to zero ;)
15:18	dnolen_	someone should ad that case to kibit.
15:18	dnolen_	add
15:19	ohpauleez	dnolen_: It's a good idea
15:19	dnolen_	Raynes: even better if reheap got kibit support :) not sure if you've tried that yet.
15:19	technomancy	kibit-as-a-service
15:19	dnolen_	Raynes: it would give refheap the oneup over all the other Clojure paste services.
15:19	technomancy	does kibit require eval?
15:20	dnolen_	technomancy: no.
15:20	technomancy	cool
15:20	ohpauleez	technomancy: no
15:20	ohpauleez	it's totally static
15:21	technomancy	oh gross, it tells you to replace single-clause if with when
15:21	danlarkin	yesssssssssssssssssss
15:21	amalloy	technomancy: i told you, you're hugely in the minority in preferring it the other way
15:21	mk	dnolen_: that should never happen, assuming that the programmer knows to only use def manually, right?
15:21	mk	(via source, or repl)
15:21	danlarkin	amalloy technomancy: agreed
15:22	ohpauleez	technomancy: Why would you want it another other way?
15:22	technomancy	ohpauleez: because use of when indicates side-effects
15:22	ohpauleez	You're ticket still sits in the kibit repo for that haha
15:23	dnolen_	kibit (technomancy remix) ?
15:23	technomancy	huh... Kibit's reader crashed; see kibit.check/read-file:java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::friend/unauthorized-uri
15:23	technomancy	I guess that is a pretty weird keyword
15:24	ohpauleez	technomancy: because of a bug in clojure you can't do scoped keywords
15:25	ohpauleez	technomancy: I can sort of see your point about `when`, but I personally don't think of side effects when I see `when`
15:25	ohpauleez	I think of a clause where this is only a true branch, and nothing more
15:25	qerub	Is there an any? function somewhere in clojure.core? It should work like (defn any? [f seq] (reduce #(or %1 %2) (map f seq))).
15:25	pjstadig	don't worry technomancy i've got your back
15:25	ohpauleez	hahaha
15:25	aphyr	(some?)
15:26	technomancy	ohpauleez: so you think it's a design flaw that you can call if with only two args?
15:26	dnolen_	qerub: some, but note it doesn't return true/false
15:26	uvtc	ohpauleez: My understanding is `when` has an implied `do`, therefore you use it when you want side-effects.
15:26	pjstadig	the battle lines are drawn!
15:26	ohpauleez	hahah
15:26	qerub	dnolen_: Thanks!
15:26	danlarkin	pjstadig: you and technomancy are clearly wrong and you know it
15:26	ohpauleez	everyone, place your bets
15:26	technomancy	it's not like this is a thing I made up; it's a long-standing convention even from older lisps
15:26	pjstadig	i know only that you are wrong, danlarkin
15:27	technomancy	even used in CL, which is famous for not giving a crap about FP and side-effects
15:27	aphyr	(when) is easier to debug with print statements. :-P
15:27	technomancy	aphyr: which are (wait for it) side-effects =)
15:27	amalloy	technomancy: ::foo/bar is a token that can only be read if you're eval'ing as you go :P
15:27	technomancy	if you need to debug in an if, use (doto x prn)
15:27	amalloy	which seems like a pretty terrible choice for clojure's reader
15:27	aphyr	Yeah, but it's not like (if is free of side effects either. :/
15:28	ohpauleez	technomancy: I totally recognize the convention, and I don't think two arg if is a design flaw
15:28	technomancy	aphyr: of course; if is more general
15:28	aphyr	if/when only clues you in as to whether the immediate lexical scope has side effects
15:28	aphyr	not a very useful distinction in my mind :/
15:28	ohpauleez	I think two arg if leads to unintential bugs at times, and I think when is more readable. Implicit do or not
15:28	danlarkin	ohpauleez +1
15:29	danlarkin	I think we won
15:29	technomancy	pft
15:29	ohpauleez	haha
15:29	pjstadig	how is when more readable than a single branch if
15:29	pjstadig	they're like practically the same thing
15:29	technomancy	I've never seen a bug come from if; what would be an example of that?
15:29	pjstadig	except that a when can have side-effects
15:29	qerub	Hey technomancy! Long time no see. Do you still do any Ruby nowadays?
15:29	amalloy	technomancy: you probably haven't read the ten thousand SO questions on (defn ! [n] (if (zero? n) 1) (* n (! (dec n))))
15:30	mk	the reason you use when instead of if is the same reason for using for ( : ) in java instead of for (int i=0;i...). By using when, you save readers having to decide each time they look at the word whether or not the branch has an else or not.
15:30	technomancy	amalloy: ok, how about a mistake that someone who actually knows the language would make?
15:30	technomancy	qerub: whoa; hi. long time.
15:30	mk	as a convention, neither when nor if guarantee that something will or won't have side effects
15:30	technomancy	qerub: I'm actually picking back up a bit of ruby for my work at heroku
15:31	pjstadig	mk: that would be true, except that if can have one or two branches
15:31	pjstadig	so it's not exactly a single/double branch split
15:31	xeqi	heh, I use `when` without side effects all over the place for lein's pom generation
15:32	ohpauleez	technomancy: minimal. But I still think only-true-branching is more readabe as when - especially when you're tracing through code and debugging
15:32	ohpauleez	for a similar reason stated by mk
15:32	ohpauleez	haha I'm also amazed at how everyone is jumping in the pit here
15:32	ohpauleez	:)
15:32	ohpauleez	That said, I come from CL and Python, so I'm a convert
15:32	mk	pjstadig: sure, so use when. Then in all cases where readers see your code, they won't wonder. And if they run into an if with one arg, they can change it to a when
15:33	technomancy	I don't know java, so that example doesn't make sense to me
15:33	pjstadig	i guess the thing is that "when can have have side-effects" is more objective than "readability" arguments
15:33	wingy	what do you think about backends-as-a-service such as Parse?
15:34	pjstadig	if all it boils down to is "readability" then is seems more sensible not to make rules couched in absolute language
15:34	technomancy	there's nothing more readable about it. it's a two-character token vs a four-character token
15:34	mk	technomancy: using an iterating construct versus manually iterating over the array yourself. Each time you look at the latter, you have to decide if it's doing the former.
15:34	ohpauleez	pjstadig: I'll agree with that
15:34	danlarkin	the way I read "if" is ok here comes a choice of two things
15:34	danlarkin	and if there aren't two things it messes up my read-flow
15:34	pjstadig	danlarkin: but that's just not true
15:34	technomancy	danlarkin: so you're ignoring the fact that it works with one
15:35	ohpauleez	but does the implicit do really make you feel that strongly about the side-effects. it's not like when is HIDING the side-effect
15:35	qerub	technomancy: Will it be frustrating to code Ruby again? I'm flirting with Clojure because it isn't a joy to code functionally in Ruby.
15:35	technomancy	ohpauleez: it turns when into a more specific form
15:35	technomancy	ohpauleez: if you can use that extra specificity to communicate something to the reader, you should
15:35	ibdknox	dnolen_: are there thoughts on the changes needed to use the cljs analyzer on JVM Clojure? (i.e. allowing unaliased :require and naked :use)
15:35	mk	pjstadig: the point is that tons of people aren't even familiar with this convention. You'll have whens without sf, and lone ifs with them. So unless you already know the code, you'll have to verify anyway, so what's the use?
15:35	pjstadig	technomancy ohpauleez: and objectively so
15:35	ibdknox	dnolen_: and :import
15:35	ohpauleez	technomancy: So intent. Sure, I can see that
15:36	pjstadig	readability is a bit more subjective
15:36	technomancy	mk: that's why it's good to raise awareness of the convention, because people are confused about it.
15:36	technomancy	qerub: it's definitely frustrating on the tooling side; things have gotten so much more complicated
15:36	ohpauleez	so you're objectivity about "side-effects" is really just readability based on intent
15:36	technomancy	and I don't even have to deal with rvm
15:36	ohpauleez	You see when and you think "here come the side effects"
15:37	ohpauleez	danlarkin sees when and he thinks, "he comes the truth"
15:37	pjstadig	i don't have heart burn over the fact that there's an if somewhere and i should be expecting to see a else clause...and oh no! it's not there! my world is crashing down! as some people seem to think
15:37	qerub	technomancy: What are you thinking of in particular? Bundler…?
15:37	technomancy	qerub: yeah, mostly that. I get a lot of bug reports coming from rvm, so even though I don't use it myself I still have to deal with it =\
15:38	qerub	technomancy: Oh, right; rvm and company.
15:38	dnolen_	ibdknox: related, stuarthallowy has brought up conditional reading ... I'm not sure exactly how the analyzer should be improved to deal w/ full Clojure ... worth figuring out
15:38	pjstadig	ohpauleez: but when you're talking about someones thoughts you're talking about subjectivity
15:38	mk	technomancy: I agree that marking sf is useful, but I think that should be marked in the function itself, not by using when to say "here come side effects... trust me"
15:38	qerub	technomancy: I like what you have done with Leiningen. It's a joy to use. Thanks!
15:38	dnolen_	ibdknox: also, ambrosebs has got something as well.
15:38	technomancy	qerub: also this tendency to just overcomplicate things; I'm working on a test suite that has a define_method inside an instance_eval just to allow for slightly more declarative test definitions, but just causes trouble down the road
15:38	pjstadig	it is an objective that if cannot have a then clause with a side-effect, unless you use a do
15:38	technomancy	qerub: thanks
15:38	ibdknox	dnolen_: his is still using the JVM analyzer though, right?
15:38	pjstadig	or just use a when with an implicit do
15:39	qerub	technomancy: Haha, I feel your pain.
15:39	technomancy	mk: that's a valid desire, but it entails changes to the language itself. I'm talking about working with what we've currently got.
15:40	ibdknox	dnolen_: yeah, and he's making it look like the CLJS output
15:40	dnolen_	ibdknox: perhaps, I haven't looked at it closely. If you want to lead the discussion on this please do, as you really need this stuff, I'll definitely chime in and chip in where I can.
15:40	ibdknox	dnolen_: k, I'll start up a thread later tonight
15:40	dnolen_	ibdknox: standardizing analyzer output, getting column data are two big things. I think column data isn't going to go anywhere without some one spending sometime to write up rationale.
15:41	ohpauleez	&(if true (println 1))
15:41	lazybot	⇒ 1 nil
15:41	mk	technomancy: you're right about that, but I still worry about bugs due to trusting a misleading lone if. The convention seems to be there for the sake of efficiency, but ensuring a lack of side-effects in critical places shouldn't be made "efficient"
15:42	mk	(programmer efficiency)
15:42	technomancy	"If the value of the if form is important in this situation, then the and construct may be stylistically preferable, depending on the context. If the value is not important, but only the effect, then the when construct may be stylistically preferable." - http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node84.html
15:42	ohpauleez	I'm fine reading both forms, and personally I think both things when I read `when`
15:42	ohpauleez	"Only true branch, implicit do"
15:42	technomancy	mk: seeing an if means you can't infer anything
15:42	technomancy	because if is more general, and when is more specific
15:43	mk	technomancy: oh, well in that case you're probably right
15:44	scgilardi	that's "and" vs "when" and I agree with it
15:44	technomancy	and is only for return values, when is only for side-effects, if is somewhere in between due to being more general
15:45	mk	on the other hand, if you mislead some people into fearing sf when there really aren't any by using (when), then not much harm is done
15:45	pjstadig	"As a matter of style, when is normally used to conditionally produce some side effects, and the value of the when form is normally not used."
15:45	qerub	Bye for now!
15:45	pjstadig	ibid.
15:45	ohpauleez	nice to see scgilardi ringing in :)
15:45	pjstadig	what clojure needs is an 'unless' macro
15:46	scgilardi	:)
15:46	ohpauleez	pjstadig: (the-real-when ...)
15:47	ohpauleez	to discourage more sideffects
15:47	technomancy	I think the readability argument only flies if you don't indent properly
15:47	pjstadig	i always found it confusing the way people used if and unless suffix conditions in ruby
15:47	pjstadig	especially when the conditions were negative
15:47	ohpauleez	pjstadig: same
15:48	pjstadig	something unless !notFooBar
15:48	technomancy	pjstadig: the one place I can see that making sense is "raise IOError if disconnected"
15:48	ohpauleez	technomancy: I disagree, but I also have a greater tolerance for when abuse
15:48	ohpauleez	even for its return values
15:48	pjstadig	well sure with an if suffix
15:48	technomancy	because having a non-conditional raise makes absolutely no sense
15:48	pjstadig	but unless especially with complex conditions with ands and ors is confusing
15:49	technomancy	agreed
15:49	pjstadig	i think if suffixes can actually read better sometimes
15:50	pjstadig	or more naturally
15:50	uvtc	In Perl, I think `unless` works well for unlikely events: print "things went well, as expected." unless $catastrophe
15:51	uvtc	Also, Clojure has `if-not` to use if you want `unless` ... (though, there's no implied `do` with `if-not`, fwict)
15:52	ohpauleez	uvtc: `when-not`
15:52	Gnosis-	it would be pretty simple to write an 'unless' macro...
15:52	mk	right, unless is for when you want to make the code seem like it's a normal part of the block, and not a special case
15:52	uvtc	ohpauleez: Hahah. Missed that. Thanks. :)
15:53	pjstadig	that's true
15:53	pjstadig	when-not is basically the 'unless' macro
15:54	arohner	I use 'when' all the time in non-side-effecting code
15:55	mk	for similar reasons, in c-syntax languages I end up converting long ifs which trail down to the bottom of a method or loop into if ( not condition) {... return, or break}
15:55	arohner	but IMO, one-armed ifs should be a syntax error
15:56	pjstadig	arohner: i would actually support that
15:57	Raynes	dnolen: There is an open issue for that.
15:57	pjstadig	let's end all the senseless violence
15:57	mattmoss	Everytime I see someone address ohpauleez, it sounds in my head like someone sighing, rolling their eyes and saying, "Oh, puh-lease..."
15:57	ohpauleez	mattmoss: That's the idea :)
15:58	Raynes	arohner: technomancy hates your guts.
15:58	ohpauleez	it's how most people address me
15:58	mattmoss	I am Master of Obviousness. :\|
15:58	aphyr	(if [float? x) (write-float sock x) (write-int sock x)) etc
15:58	ohpauleez	:)
15:58	uvtc	pjstadig: Yes. Can't we all just get along ... ... ... and agree to rename `not=` to `!=`. ;)
15:59	aphyr	While we're at it, rename set! to =!
16:00	ohpauleez	uvtc: `!` implies stateful change :)
16:00	mattmoss	(with-perl-noise (=! (!= ...)))
16:03	uvtc	ohpauleez: interesting way to look at it, even though it's a leading and not a trailing `!`. Semi-related, I'd always thought that the single-quote mark implied quoting, but just yesterday learned of +'
16:04	uvtc	Any idea why the trailing single quote mark was chosen for that?
16:04	Bronsa	mathematic notation?
16:04	Bronsa	f, f', f'' etc
16:04	uvtc	Ahhhh..... prime.
16:04	augustl	how do I add Java interop return type metadata when I already have a ^{:private true} metadata there? Normally I use #^TheReturnType
16:04	uvtc	Heh. Nice.
16:05	Bronsa	, (let [a'a'a'a' 1] a'a'a'a')
16:05	clojurebot	1
16:05	Bronsa	:D
16:07	Gnosis-	that's an acceptable name?
16:08	uvtc	Gnosis-: acceptable to whom? :)
16:08	amalloy	if you're tarzan
16:08	mk	Gnosis-: by the compiler, but maybe not by humans
16:08	Gnosis-	I meant acceptable to the compiler, haha
16:10	pjstadig	augustl: ^{:tag TheReturnType :private true}
16:10	amalloy	pjstadig: or just use both; metadata tags stack iirc
16:10	mk	Gnosis-: technically any chars are allowed, except for a few reserved ones, and it's not clear what the reserved ones will actually be, so... most are disallowed
16:10	amalloy	&(meta ' ^String ^:private x)
16:10	lazybot	⇒ {:tag String, :private true}
16:11	augustl	pjstadig: is this documented somewhere? :)
16:11	aphyr	augustl: seem to recall it's on the java interop page
16:11	augustl	nothing about #^ on the java interop page
16:11	Gnosis-	mk: how can they be reserved if the current compiler accepts them without complaining?
16:11	mk	I don't see any reason that unicode shouldn't already be allowed, since there's little chance that anything reserved by clojure will come from there
16:11	pjstadig	,(meta '^String x)
16:11	clojurebot	{:tag String}
16:12	augustl	where is the ^foo ^bar meta type syntax documented btw?
16:12	mk	Gnosis-: :: and // etc. are reserved. +'- and many others are explicitly not reserved. Most symbols will eventually not be reserved.
16:12	pjstadig	stacking works too
16:12	pjstadig	,(meta '^String ^:private x)
16:12	clojurebot	{:tag String, :private true}
16:12	mk	Gnosis-: more details http://clojure.org/reader
16:12	pjstadig	augustl: #^ is deprecated syntax
16:12	Gnosis-	pjstadig: what does '^ mean?
16:12	pjstadig	i guess the question is where you read that :)
16:13	augustl	pjstadig: ah
16:13	augustl	I should read the entire doc some day..
16:13	augustl	no idea what # actually is :)
16:13	Gnosis-	mk: ah, thanks
16:14	pjstadig	Gnosis-: ' just means quote the next that is coming and in this case the next thing happens to be a type tag and you don't need a space after the quote
16:14	pjstadig	,(meta ' ^String ^:private x)
16:14	clojurebot	{:tag String, :private true}
16:14	pjstadig	adding a space works too
16:14	pjstadig	or
16:14	pjstadig	,(meta (quote ^String ^:private x))
16:14	clojurebot	{:tag String, :private true}
16:14	uvtc	Bronsa: Gnosis- : now that you mention it, what's the opinion on using a single-quote/apostrophe in symbols, like `ted's-room` or `it's-looking-good`?
16:14	pjstadig	which is kinda what it becomes
16:14	pjstadig	,''^String ^:private x
16:14	clojurebot	(quote x)
16:14	augustl	I suppose this is a symptom of reading code instead of reading docs to figure out how stuff works
16:15	uvtc	,(let [it's-looking-good true] (when it's-looking-good (println "happy day")))
16:15	clojurebot	happy day
16:15	pjstadig	ITYM, 'if' :)
16:15	mk	the various special symbols are there for lazy programmers. Instead of always having to type and look at (deref a), we can write @a, and the reader replaces it
16:18	tufflax	I want to implement my own data structure that shall support conj and pop. I'm using defrecord and I must specify which interface/protocol I'm implementing. So which protocol/interface supports conj and pop? Seq? Is that the name I'm looking for?
16:23	mk	tufflax: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/tree/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang probably ipersistentcollection or something
16:25	tufflax	mk thanks
16:28	technomancy	is it just me, or is it ironic that the clojure source uses "jvm" for its java code despite repeated insistence that the JVM and Java are not the same thing?
16:28	technomancy	I mean, I understand it's a hold-over from when the clr implementation was kept in the source tree, but I'm still amused by it
16:29	pjstadig	technomancy: just rename it...patches welcome
16:29	mk	maybe "stuff for targetting the jvm"?
16:29	gfredericks	s/clojure/lava/ while you're at it
16:29	pjstadig	haha
16:29	pjstadig	personally i think Sybilant is a better name than Clojure
16:29	pjstadig	but who am i to say
16:30	hiredman	lava is really hot right now
16:30	Raynes	technomancy: You'll be sorry when they start adding scala source code.
16:31	technomancy	Raynes: someone is actually using lein-scalac to avoid sbt
16:31	mk	are agents guaranteed to execute things in order of sending?
16:31	technomancy	makes me happy
16:32	pjstadig	mk: for the 'things' sent from the same thread, yes
16:33	llasram	maybe best to say that agents execute things in the order received? :-)
16:33	mk	llasram: perhaps, though a send and receive is presumably the same thing :)
16:34	mk	pjstadig: will things sent from different threads be queued out of order?
16:35	llasram	If that's your definition, then definitely yes -- the purpose of agents is to serialize asynchronous updates to a identity
16:37	mk	llasram: ok, good. I was thinking that the spec might have left open that the actions are placed in a set rather than a queue, or that one might create an agent with a priority queue
16:37	mk	I guess that can't be done
16:37	acheng	,(let [a 1] (eval (read-string "a")))
16:37	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
16:38	acheng	"Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context"
16:38	tufflax	Hm, IPersistentCollection specifies that cons is part of the interface but not conj, what's up with that?
16:39	tufflax	I don't see any interface mentioning conj
16:39	llasram	mk: Ah, not that I'm aware of. You'd probably need to create your own new reference type to support that sort of thing
16:41	gtrak`	mk: that kind of goes against the state-change aspect of an agent, yea? sounds like you just need the worker pool part
16:41	llasram	To the `future`!
16:42	mattmoss	,(class 'a)
16:42	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
16:42	mk	acheng: interesting - same thing for ,(let [a 1] (eval 'user/a)) I'm not sure why that happens
16:42	mattmoss	,(class #'a)
16:42	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: a in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
16:42	mattmoss	,(let [a "a"] (class #'a))
16:42	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: a in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
16:42	mattmoss	Hmm.
16:42	dnolen	tufflax: the names in Clojure don't always reflect the names used for the Java Interfaces - look at RT.java. fwiw, the naming between fns & protocols is more consistent in ClojureScript.
16:43	gfredericks	mattmoss: ##(class #'clojure.core/nth)
16:43	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.Var
16:44	tufflax	dnolen so my original problem: what should I put as interface in my defrecord when implementing conj?
16:44	mk	gtrak`: well, one might want a construct that doesn't care about the order of incoming actions, but does care about preserving state. This is different from a worker pool
16:44	mattmoss	thanks, g
16:44	dnolen	tufflax: whatever is in IPersistentCollection - cons + whatever else.
16:45	dnolen	I mean cons + whatever that interface defines
16:46	amalloy	tufflax: you can't have a special impl of conj in a defrecord, only a deftype, afaik
16:46	tufflax	dnolen I think you misunderstood me. When I'm implementing a function in a record, I must state the interface.
16:47	gtrak`	mk: yea, looks like agents don't guarantee execution order either
16:47	tufflax	amalloy hm why not?
16:47	dnolen	tufflax: in records you can implement methods on interfaces, and fns on protocols.
16:47	dnolen	tufflax: and amalloy is right.
16:47	amalloy	because records are maps. defrecord comes with implementations of all the map interfaces, including conj
16:47	dnolen	tufflax: you're not allowed to customize the map behavior of records
16:48	acheng	hm... if i have a value and a string, is it possible to let-bind the value to a variable named in the string, and then eval the string?
16:48	tufflax	oh i see
16:48	mattmoss	If I do (defn foo [] ...) and (def f #'foo) ... both (f) and (@f) both work. Why? Is it an implicit deref without the @ ?
16:48	Bronsa	vars are implicitly dereffed
16:48	tufflax	Ok then. Say I'
16:48	tufflax	ops, pressed enter too early :p
16:49	Bronsa	(during function call)
16:49	tufflax	Ok then. Say I'm using deftype, what interface should I state as the interface I'm implementing when I'm defining conj?
16:49	mk	gfredericks: regarding varless symbols, mapped directly to values without an intermediary var, I think part of the problem is that you would no longer have an explicit construct for safely working with concurrency, like (alter-var-root)
16:49	mattmoss	Bronsa: thanks
16:50	gfredericks	mk: alter-var-root is for NOT working safely with concurrency
16:50	mk	gtrak`: interesting - do you have a link to where it talks about that? (agent execution order)
16:51	gfredericks	I thought all sends from the same thread should execute in the same order
16:51	mk	gfredericks: in that case you could just use def, no? alter-var-root has a potential verification function attached
16:51	Bronsa	mattmoss: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Var.java#L391-412
16:52	acheng	mk: ya, alter-var-root is heavy-handed to the max. i found the only valid use case. it's all mine
16:52	gtrak`	mk: I was looking at this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5669084/is-clojures-send-asynchronous
16:52	gfredericks	mk: you could still do changes atomically; namespaces as a whole could be implemented as atoms
16:53	mk	gfredericks: if that's the case for the same thread, then why not for other threads? Don't they all use the same queue?
16:53	pepijndevos	why do zippers use metadata instead of a protocol?
16:53	tufflax	dnolen amalloy: What should I put in my deftype instead of some-interface? (deftype MyDataStructure [data] some-interface (conj [this element] ...))
16:54	gfredericks	mk: I don't know why that wouldn't be the case; it's just non-deterministic when things happen more or less at the same time
16:54	mk	gfredericks: I think you're correct, and I think that I like the idea of namespaces as atoms substantially more than what we have now. I think it might be much easier to understand and think about.
16:55	Bronsa	tufflax: you should put clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection, and replace conj with cons
16:56	tufflax	Bronsa ok. Will I be able to use conj then or just cons?
16:56	Bronsa	cons of clojure.core has nothing to do with cons on the IPersistentCollection interface
16:56	mk	gfredericks: well... things can happen more or less "at the same time" in the same thread. Shouldn't change for extra threads, if a proper concurrent queue is used...
16:56	gfredericks	how do things happen at the same time in the same thread?
16:56	tufflax	bronsa ok
16:57	tufflax	So how does cons become conj then?
16:57	gfredericks	the source of conj calls RT.cons I think
16:57	gfredericks	or RT.conj calls #cons
16:57	tufflax	ah ok
16:57	mk	is there any reason that namespace maps weren't implemented as atoms?
16:57	pandeiro	does cljs not have clj->js anymore???
16:57	lazybot	pandeiro: Yes, 100% for sure.
16:57	Bronsa	yes
16:58	gfredericks	mk: atoms didn't exist initially
16:58	tufflax	thanks for clearing that up
16:58	Bronsa	RT.conj calls #cons
16:58	mk	gfredericks: how do they happen at the same time in different threads, assuming we've got a concurrent queue?
16:58	gfredericks	mk: I mean the sends are done at the same time; obviously they go into the queue in some order but it's hard to say anything interesting about it
16:59	pandeiro	ah oops, i am a moron, sorry
16:59	pandeiro	i was wanting js->clj
17:00	mk	gfredericks: right. But if we have that guarantee, then logging agents become much more useful, to take one example
17:02	mk	and if we don't have that guarantee, then priority queues can be added to agents
17:05	tufflax	If anyone have the time, please take a look at this longish question http://pastebin.com/iHGwgf6i
17:06	kaoD_	hi
17:06	tufflax	hi
17:06	kaoD_	do multimethods support overloading by arity?
17:06	hiredman	multimethods support everything
17:06	kaoD_	(through overloaded dispatch fn, of course)
17:06	kaoD_	hiredman: that's good news then, I was afraid arity was fixed
17:07	tufflax	has* :P
17:12	kaoD_	tufflax: has?
17:15	tufflax	correction of my previous message
17:16	kaoD_	oh, I thought you were correcting me :P
17:20	mk	the reason agents don't guarantee ordering except in a single thread is that sends are only queued in the agent's queue at the end of a transaction, not at the actual logical time that the send occurs
17:27	cmajor7	does korma (transaction …) rollback on the exception?
17:29	pandeiro	how could i do the Array.prototype.slice.call(someArrayLikeObject, 0) trick with cljs? syntax?
17:30	pandeiro	nm, got it: (.call js/Array.prototype.slice thatArrayLikeObj 0)
17:31	cmajor7	I would think it does: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/JDBC-11 but I am not sure whether I can use a "is-rollback?" to detect that..
17:40	kaoD_	is there any way to slurp stdin until EOF?
17:41	kaoD_	slurp itself seems to stay there waiting for more input (or maybe it's windows' fault)
17:45	mk	(def foo) is equivalent to (intern ns foo) ?
17:46	S11001001	kaoD_: yep it's windows's fault; how are you sending eof?
17:47	kaoD_	S11001001: not sending EOF, I expected Windows to append EOF after piping from an echo
17:47	kaoD_	though I'm probably wrong
17:48	S11001001	who really knows; it's windows
17:51	goodieboy	technomancy: hey, i'm thinking about writing a leiningen plugin. Are there directions somewhere to do it properly for the latest leiningen?
17:53	goodieboy	ok, i think this must be the place to look: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/PLUGINS.md
17:53	kaoD_	goodieboy: I was just going to point you there
17:53	technomancy	yup
17:53	kaoD_	it's unbelievably easy
17:54	goodieboy	kaoD_: good to know :)
17:54	goodieboy	thanks
17:55	emezeske	Once you know about technomancy, though, it becomes believably easy
17:55	Raynes	goodieboy: https://github.com/Raynes/lein-tag Here is a very simple example you can look at too.
17:55	goodieboy	Raynes: awesome thanks
17:56	cgray	technomancy: is writing a lein plugin for any jvm-based language essentially the same difficulty?
17:58	technomancy	cgray: for any compiler that has an ant task (which hopefully should be all of them), yes
17:59	cgray	technomancy: ok, good to know, then I've gotta write an ant task first :)
17:59	Raynes	technomancy: I thought we didn't use ant these days?
17:59	technomancy	Raynes: not for any of the core stuff
17:59	technomancy	Raynes: but lein-scalac uses it
18:00	Raynes	cgray: Did you invent a JVM language?
18:00	cgray	Raynes: I didn't but there is one being invented at my work
18:00	Raynes	technomancy: You should use uncle.
18:00	technomancy	har har
18:00	Raynes	cgray: Make them stop.
18:01	Raynes	technomancy: https://github.com/flatland/uncle
18:01	Raynes	technomancy: I was serious.
18:01	technomancy	oh
18:01	technomancy	lancet is a bit weird
18:01	technomancy	but I don't have any plans to develop lein-scalac further, so whatevs
18:02	Raynes	Dude. You should totally turn lein into a complete Scala sy… oh, wait. I guess that's all there is to it, really. Just compiling Scala.
18:02	Raynes	It's cool how little is necessary to make Leiningen an <insert jvm lang here> build tool.
18:03	technomancy	well the problem with scala specifically is the compiler is so slow that everyone ends up using the incremental compiler, and that's not hooked up to lein
18:03	technomancy	but it's not my problem =)
18:03	Raynes	technomancy: You're a pretty cool chap.
18:04	eggsby	Raynes: I had to leave the office before I got a chance to thank you last friday -- Thank you!
18:04	Raynes	eggsby: What did I do?
18:05	eggsby	hmm, LA clojure meetup about cljs... wonder if I should go
18:05	Raynes	Besides my normal awesome level which doesn't necessitate thank yous.
18:05	eggsby	Raynes: fixed a retarded thing I did w/ refheap :p
18:06	Raynes	Oh.
18:06	Raynes	Oh, right. Forgot about that.
18:06	Raynes	You're lucky refheap has terrible traffic. :p
18:30	muhoo	what's the trick for debugging lein2 plugins? how does one get an in-lein repl to interactively work with the plugin?
18:30	muhoo	i.e. not the project, but lein itself.
18:30	technomancy	muhoo: if you have :eval-in :leiningen in project.clj, then `lein repl` in the plugin project will put you in the right place
18:31	muhoo	fantastic, thanks!
18:32	technomancy	huh; I realized I added shorthand for forcing a repl to eval-in lein without changing the project.clj in lein1
18:32	technomancy	oh, but you can do it with lein-assoc in 2.x
18:33	muhoo	whut?
18:33	technomancy	`lein assoc :eval-in :leiningen repl`
18:33	technomancy	it's a plugin that gives you a higher-order assoc task
18:33	llasram	Ooooh
18:33	technomancy	you can add arbitrary project.clj keys on the command line
18:33	llasram	Now that is fancy
18:33	muhoo	oh https://github.com/technomancy/lein-assoc
18:33	technomancy	=D
18:34	muhoo	there is so much fancy stuff in lein these days. it's kind of disorienting
18:34	technomancy	tempted to merge that into lein proper
18:34	technomancy	muhoo: higher-order tasks open up a lot of possibilities
18:34	muhoo	ya, i was stunned by how quickly raynes put together lein-pdo.
18:35	Raynes	muhoo: I was stunned at how long it took me, actually.
18:35	Raynes	It was harder than I thought it'd be.
18:35	technomancy	there's always https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Plugins
18:35	technomancy	but it's not exhaustive
18:35	technomancy	for instance, Raynes forgot to add lein-pdo =
18:35	technomancy	)
18:36	mk	how are symbols resolved? As far as I can tell, there's a special map from symbols to vars in each namespace. But is there some sort of secondary map for aliases, and requires? Are aliased symbols added to this map? Is there a separate map for vars that have been set to private?
18:37	technomancy	,(take 10 (ns-map ns))
18:37	clojurebot	([sorted-map #'clojure.core/sorted-map] [read-line #'clojure.core/read-line] [re-pattern #'clojure.core/re-pattern] [keyword? #'clojure.core/keyword?] [unchecked-inc-int #'clojure.core/unchecked-inc-int] ...)
18:38	technomancy	not sure if that includes aliases
18:38	technomancy	oh, there's a separate ns-aliases
18:38	mk	does that mean there's a second map, or is it just a filter?
18:39	technomancy	pretty sure it's a separate map
18:39	technomancy	since an alias by itself isn't a first-class thing afaik
18:41	mk	hmm. When the reader hits a symbol (it is the reader that does this, right?), how many and which maps does it check before finding the var that it will assign inside the form? (it assigns the var, and not e.g. a fully qualified symbol, correct?)
18:42	mk	presumably for fully qualified symbols, the answer is two maps: the global map of namespaces containing the namespace, and then the namespace itself (which is a map) for the name
18:43	wingy	could someone provide datomic hosting?
18:44	muhoo	heh, (pprint (ns-map ns)) caused java to go to 99% cpu and nrepl to lock up
18:45	muhoo	nrepl-connection up to 38644 lines
18:45	mk	,(ns-map 'doesntexist)
18:45	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: No namespace: doesntexist found>
18:46	mk	,(in-ns 'extant)
18:46	clojurebot	#<Namespace extant>
18:46	mk	,ns
18:46	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
18:46	muhoo	C-x C-k, problem solved
18:46	mk	,(in-ns 'extant) (ns-map 'extant)
18:46	clojurebot	#<Namespace extant>
18:47	mk	,(do (in-ns 'extant) (ns-map 'extant))
18:47	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ns-map in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
18:47	mk	,(do (create-ns 'extant) (ns-map 'extant))
18:47	clojurebot	{ProcessBuilder java.lang.ProcessBuilder, Enum java.lang.Enum, SuppressWarnings java.lang.SuppressWarnings, Throwable java.lang.Throwable, InterruptedException java.lang.InterruptedException, ...}
18:48	amalloy	mk: do you not own a repl?
18:49	TimMc	amalloy: Don't make fun of the poor!
18:49	mk	amalloy: publicly checking how the bot handles namespaces
18:50	muhoo	wow, soon there will be more lein plugins than there are apps in the apple app store.
18:50	mk	...and making a mistake or two
18:51	muhoo	and yet, rhickey uses ant :-/
18:52	Frozenlo`	o_O
18:53	muhoo	nice, a way to use heroku without having to deal with ruby: https://github.com/technomancy/lein-heroku
18:53	Frozenlo`	Any recommendation regarding tests plugins?
18:53	technomancy	muhoo: keep in mind that's very unofficial =)
18:53	Raynes	I didn't find dealing with Ruby much of an issue.
18:54	technomancy	yeah, actually you don't even need to have rubygems installed anymore
18:58	kaoD_	is there any way to slurp piped stdin in windows and not wait forever for more input?
19:02	technomancy	kaoD_: on unix EOF results in a nil return value from read-line iirc
19:02	technomancy	not sure about slurp
19:03	kaoD_	technomancy: I'm interested in stdin as a whole, not line by line... I know I can fake it but it just feels hacky
19:03	technomancy	yeah, but you could try it and see if it has the same problem
19:03	kaoD_	you're right, I'll try
19:25	amalloy	is there a clever way to take from a sequence up to, and including, the first item that satisfies a predicate? i think i've written that function before, but not well
19:30	mk	amalloy: source for take-while http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/take-while
19:32	metellus	amalloy: the best I can find is split-with or partition-by and then grabbing the first element from the second seq
19:34	gfredericks	amalloy: if nothing satisfies it returns the original?
19:34	amalloy	gfredericks: yeah, that's the plan
19:34	mk	in that source I linked, put the cons in front of the when
19:35	gfredericks	(fn f [pred coll] (if (empty? coll) coll (let [[x & xs] coll] (if (pred x) [x] (cons x (lazy-seq (f pred xs)))))))
19:36	amalloy	gfredericks: never use [x & xs] destructuring when consuming/producing a lazy seq, btw
19:36	amalloy	& xs uses next, not rest
19:36	gfredericks	amalloy: now I know
19:37	amalloy	i'm always tempted, and usually remember not to
19:38	gfredericks	amalloy: using core.logic for a while made writing that ^ code feel really weird
19:41	mk	(defn take-while' [pred coll] (lazy-seq (when-let [s (seq coll)] (cons (first s) (when (pred (first s)) (take-while' pred (rest s)))))))
19:41	mk	seems to work, and mimics take-while
19:42	gfredericks	maybe name it take-until
19:43	kaoD_	I'm having a hard time realizing when to use macros or when to stick with code... (which probably means I don't understand the subject enough) any quick tips/references?
19:43	mk	or take-along (...the non-matching value)
19:43	rbxbx	kaoD_ avoid macros until it's no longer feasible to do otherwise.
19:45	rbxbx	kaoD_ they're a sharp (and valuable) tool which one should exercise caution in using. As to learning when it's no longer feasible to do otherwise... I guess that just comes with experience?
19:45	kaoD_	rbxbx: that's what I suspected
19:45	kaoD_	thanks
19:45	technomancy	the best way to learn is to try to consume a codebase that uses too many macros
19:46	kaoD_	technomancy: what do you mean consume?
19:46	mk	kaoD_: you don't need to worry that you're missing out on the magic of lisp if you're not spending time defining macros. Clojure has many constructs that set it apart as a much higher-level language, and macros are only a minor part of all that
19:46	technomancy	kaoD_: I mean use it as a library or something
19:46	rbxbx	kaoD_ better yet try to fix a bug in the project's issue-tracker :)
19:47	kaoD_	technomancy: oh, as in "product consumer"
19:47	kaoD_	been there
19:47	kaoD_	(many times with my own macros, haha)
19:48	kaoD_	thanks for the insight
19:48	technomancy	I guess the key is you need to try to use the macros in ways that the original author didn't intend
19:50	emezeske	technomancy: One of the biggest gripes I have with macro-heavy libraries is that they basically force the user to write macros to deal with them
19:50	emezeske	technomancy: E.g. if you have repetition in your use of a macro that you'd like to factor out, you have to write a macro
19:51	technomancy	heh; yeah, infectious macros
19:51	emezeske	exactly
19:51	kaoD_	and then... why macros? I mean, in which case are they useful? it all comes down to experience or is there any sort of pattern/well-suited task for macros?
19:52	arohner	in core.logic, if I have a logic variable that is a map, how do I write the expression "(== 3 (:foo q))"?
19:52	arohner	I tried the naive way and I'm getting NPE
19:53	technomancy	kaoD_: usually if you write a macro you should do it after writing the macroless way first
19:53	amalloy	arohner: i don't think that's possible yet. as of recently it wasn't, anyway
19:53	technomancy	so people can pick which way is appropriate for their circumstances; maybe they don't care about composability and want the extra convenience
19:54	kaoD_	technomancy: ugh, that means double mainteinance
19:54	benedikt	I'm using lein and emacs (+ clojure-mode) for clojure. starting the swank server with "M-x clojure-jack-in" makes it bind to 0.0.0.0. I want to bind to localhost.
19:54	arohner	amalloy: really? seems like it should be possible to build a fn that does that, even if it isn't built in
19:54	benedikt	I ws discussing this here the other day but I never managed to change the bind address.
19:54	technomancy	kaoD_: not really, the macro version needs the function version to exist anyway
19:54	amalloy	kaoD_: wat. write the macro to use the function
19:55	kaoD_	lol, so obvious
19:55	benedikt	technomancy: i belive you said that this is no longer the default behavior, but this is the default behavoir with the current lein.
19:55	amalloy	arohner: it needs hooks into the unification code
19:55	technomancy	benedikt: the version of lein is immaterial; it's the version of lein-swank that matters
19:55	technomancy	but you might want to try https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el instead
19:56	benedikt	technomancy: right. so lein is using an outdeted version of swank?
19:56	hyPiRion	You should keep the amount of macros to a minimum though, they're not first class citizens.
19:56	technomancy	benedikt: right
19:56	benedikt	technomancy: one might argue this is an issue.
19:57	benedikt	technomancy: thanks for the link, this seems useful.
19:57	technomancy	if you have a solution for how to retroactively fix old versions I would be glad to hear it =)
19:57	benedikt	technomancy: actually, i'm working on this time machine...
19:57	technomancy	sweeeet
19:58	benedikt	so if one uses this nrepl.el, one isn't dependent on lein any more?
19:59	benedikt	scratch that
19:59	technomancy	no, you still need lein, but you don't need any lein plugins
19:59	benedikt	as long as it doesn't listen to 0.0.0.0 i'm happy.
20:04	arohner	amalloy: looks like (pred) works, as a worst case
20:04	arohner	(logic/pred q #(= 3 (:foo %)))
20:04	arohner	what does "non-relational" mean, in a core.logic docstring?
20:05	amalloy	it's not a two-way function
20:05	amalloy	you can't, eg, use that pred to build the map {:foo 3}, only to check that it fits after someone else has built it
20:06	arohner	ah, right
20:11	benedikt	technomancy: this one also seems to listen to 0.0.0.0
20:14	technomancy	ugh; crap
20:14	technomancy	Raynes: what the heck, man?
20:14	arohner	more stupid core.logic questions. How can I write "q is not a member of [x y z]"?
20:15	gfredericks	arohner: "not" is not very natural
20:15	gfredericks	but you can definitely say (!= q x) (!= q y) (!= q z)
20:16	benedikt	technomancy: i'm leaning towards using iptables --- but thats not really a fix for the problem. Personally, I think this is the wrong default, and a dangerous one.
20:17	technomancy	benedikt: it definitely is. it was fixed years ago in swank, but I've only started using `lein repl` a couple weeks ago, so I didn't notice.
20:17	technomancy	working on a fix
20:17	benedikt	so lein uses a version of swank that is outdated by years?
20:17	arohner	gfredericks: thanks
20:18	technomancy	no, lein uses whatever version of swank you tell it to
20:18	benedikt	the is a messy swamp of tools. then why am I using an outdated swank version?
20:18	benedikt	and what baout nrepl.el
20:19	technomancy	nrepl.el is just using the built-in `lein repl` task, which I'm fixing right now
20:19	technomancy	I don't know how you installed lein-swank, so it's hard to say anything about that
20:19	benedikt	technomancy: "lein self-install"
20:20	technomancy	that doesn't install lein-swank
20:20	benedikt	..
20:20	benedikt	then I dont know either!
20:20	technomancy	you would have had to either put it in your user profile, a project.clj, or run `lein plugin install`
20:20	benedikt	most likely lein plugin install
20:21	technomancy	though that would only work for lein 1.x
20:21	technomancy	if you're using 2.x, check ~/.lein/profiles.clj
20:21	benedikt	i am
20:22	benedikt	[lein-swank "1.4.3"]
20:23	technomancy	so does just regular `lein swank` start on localhost or 0.0.0.0?
20:23	technomancy	maybe it's specific to the elisp launcher?
20:23	mk	the namespace can map directly to classes without first putting them in a var?
20:24	technomancy	hm; actually that's not right; jack-in is hard-coded to localhost
20:25	benedikt	yes and no.
20:25	benedikt	it opens 33804 on * and 4005 on localhost
20:25	benedikt	"Listening for transport dt_socket at address: 33804. \n Connection opened on localhost port 4005"
20:25	technomancy	oh, ok... that is cdt then
20:26	technomancy	I have no idea what's going on with that code =(
20:26	technomancy	lemme see if it's easy to disable
20:26	benedikt	why is that listening on all interaces?
20:26	benedikt	interfaces*
20:26	benedikt	(cdt, that is)
20:27	technomancy	I'm sure it's just an oversight
20:27	benedikt	sounds like a bug :)
20:27	technomancy	definitely
20:27	technomancy	I got all the cdt support submitted as a big pull request without any real explanation of how it works =(
20:27	benedikt	I have to leave now, i'll happily continue when i get back
20:28	mk	where is the clojure code that resolves a var by looking things up in the namespace?
20:28	technomancy	ok, you should be able to disable it by putting :swank-cdt false in project.clj
20:28	technomancy	or in your user profile
20:28	casion	how would one evaluate something like '(+ 1 2)
20:28	benedikt	technomancy: is my user profile ~/.leun/profiles.clj?
20:29	technomancy	benedikt: yeah, under the :user section of the map
20:29	mk	,(eval '(+ 1 2)) ;?
20:29	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
20:29	technomancy	benedikt: thanks for catching this and the repl issue
20:30	adu	,(first [1 2 3])
20:30	clojurebot	1
20:30	casion	mk: thank you
20:30	adu	,(first '(1 2 3))
20:30	clojurebot	1
20:31	paxan	Has anybody been able to run JUnit tests via lein successfully? I am trying lein-junit, but I must be missing some important tip in its documentation regarding how to make it work. It simply succeeds very quietly with zero regard for failing tests
20:31	benedikt	technomancy: :)
20:32	adu	paxan: there should be a test for that
20:32	paxan	adu, got that plugin's src cloned. It passes its own tests :)
20:33	adu	:)
20:38	technomancy	benedikt: just pushed a fix to make the repl task bind to localhost only by default
20:40	Raynes	technomancy: What did I do?
20:40	technomancy	Raynes: benedikt just pointed out that `lein repl` listens on 0.0.0.0 by default
20:41	Raynes	Pretty sure I didn't have anything to do with anything related to that, technomancy.
20:41	technomancy	well I had to blame someone
20:43	amalloy	technomancy: it's my fault: i heard someone complain about it and was like "whoa that's awful" instead of "technomancy: ^ awful"
20:48	technomancy	hah
20:49	technomancy	it could be cemerick's fault since that's what nrepl defaults to, but arguably in the context of nrepl-as-a-library it's a decent default
20:55	xeqi	technomancy: what did you use to record your clojure screencast?
21:01	guns	Hello, I am trying to determine if Unicode characters are explicitly valid in symbols. LispReader.java is very liberal, but clojure.org/reader says "alphanumeric"
21:01	guns	Does this mean [A-Za-z0-9] or POSIX [:alnum:]?
21:05	guns	Further confusing the issue is that Clojure 1.3+ allows ' in symbols
21:08	mk	,(defn ↬ [a] a)
21:08	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
21:08	gfredericks	,(let [↬ :foo] ↬)
21:08	clojurebot	:foo
21:08	guns	mk: the actual pattern for symbols is "[:]?([\D&&[^/]]./)?([\D&&[^/]][^/])"
21:09	guns	But that includes quite a bit more than "alphanumeric"
21:09	mk	guns: the only reason any characters would be prohibited is because clojure reserves them
21:10	guns	I've been freely using Unicode in my personal Clojure code, but someone mentioned that it is not part of the spec
21:10	guns	from clojure.org/reader: "(other characters will be allowed eventually, but not all macro characters have been determined)"
21:10	gfredericks	I can't imagine there being non-ascii macro characters
21:11	gfredericks	maybe because I have no imagination
21:11	mk	or because it might reserve them in the future. Since I doubt that ↬ and the rest would ever be reserved by clojure, I really don't see why they would be prohibited even now
21:11	guns	Well, I'm happy with the status quo
21:11	gfredericks	#+ and #- might be coming
21:11	guns	just having a discussion about whether it's "legal" clojure code
21:11	mk	it's nice to see that they aren't, when it comes to code
21:12	mk	if someone knows a good reason not to use unicode now and assume that it won't be prohibited, I'd love to hear it
21:13	guns	Even ASCII symbols like as->zs are commonly used, but don't adhere to the published definition
21:14	gfredericks	-> is used in clojure itself
21:14	amalloy	mk: the main reason would be portability of your source files. if you save a file as UTF-8 (say), and someone reads it as if it were Latin-1 (say), you might have issues if one of your multi-byte characters contains a 0x20
21:15	amalloy	i think the clojure reader always reads files as UTF-8 now, but that's just an implementation detail; no promises about the character encoding
21:15	guns	I guess if we just continue to use Unicode, clojure/core will be forced to support it indefinitely
21:15	guns	:)
21:16	mk	it's strange that > isn't listed among the permitted symbols in http://clojure.org/reader
21:16	gfredericks	those docs aren't very maintained
21:17	gfredericks	somebody was complaining about it not mentioning \' the other day
21:17	mk	I think the main problem is people saving their files in non-utf8... I don't have much sympathy for that
21:21	mk	guns: what are you using unicode for? I've always wanted to replace -> with →, but I'm not sure that'd go over well
21:22	guns	mk: λ α β Σ, and so on for concision.
21:22	gfredericks	how do those get munged?
21:23	guns	I wouldn't do it in a team environment, but for myself, I have a very nice multibyte input setup
21:23	guns	gfredericks: what do you mean? in the clojure symbol table?
21:23	gfredericks	no in class names and other java things
21:24	gfredericks	&((fn λ [] (fn [] :no)))
21:24	gfredericks	,((fn λ [] (fn [] :no)))
21:24	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval27$??__28$fn__29 sandbox$eval27$??__28$fn__29@3984d9f6>
21:24	gfredericks	,((fn fooλbar [] (fn [] :no)))
21:24	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval57$foo??bar__58$fn__59 sandbox$eval57$foo??bar__58$fn__59@4684c5b4>
21:24	goodieboy	technomancy: we're using leiningen < 2, can we still use the ".lein-classpath" feature for testing plugins?
21:25	gfredericks	the ?? is rather disturbing there
21:25	guns	That's true
21:25	mk	gfredericks: my repl shows the lambda, might be clojurebot bug
21:25	gfredericks	oh okay; so java must allow it
21:26	guns	Java identifiers explicitly allow unicode; I'm not sure if this impacts clojure in any way
21:26	guns	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se7/html/jls-3.html#jls-3.8
21:26	gfredericks	so clojure must only munge a few reserved symbols
21:28	goodieboy	technomancy: well dang, it works :)
21:28	mk	eclipse doesn't like ↬ in method names
21:29	mk	it doesn't complain when given non-english alphabets, though
21:29	arohner	with core.logic, how do I say "all elements of seq x are members of seq y"?
21:30	gfredericks	(everyo #(membero % y) x)
21:30	gfredericks	after writing everyo
21:30	gfredericks	and that only works if you don't mind it succeeding multiple times for repeats
21:30	arohner	how do I write everyo? :-)
21:30	arohner	I'm still uncertain about how core.logic is implemented, and what is possible
21:31	gfredericks	(defn everyo [goalo coll] (matche [coll] ([[]]) ([[x . xs]] (goalo x) (everyo goalo xs))))
21:32	arohner	gfredericks: awesome. thank you. Is there something I should have read? I've read the primer on the wiki, but I still have lots of questions
21:32	mk	why do namespaces map directly to classes, instead of classes wrapped in vars?
21:32	gfredericks	arohner: The Reasoned Schemer
21:33	gfredericks	arohner: what are your questions? I'm right this second preparing a talk on core.logic so I'm interested in that sort of thing above and beyond the normal
21:33	gfredericks	I should probably even take notes on your questions :)
21:34	arohner	the main thing I'd like to understand is, enough of the implementation so that it I have an intuitive understanding of how to extend it
21:34	arohner	i.e. I didn't know that goals were functions, or how to compose new goals
21:34	arohner	i.e. I don't know what's "magic" and what's "user code"
21:34	gfredericks	by "extend it" do you mean writing your own goals, or really really extending it?
21:34	gfredericks	maybe you don't know what you mean yet
21:35	arohner	right, I don't know which kinds of extension are easy, and which take serious work
21:35	gfredericks	k cool
21:36	arohner	an hour ago I was wondering, if I have a logic variable q, and q is a map, how do I write the goal "q has a key named :foo, with value 3"
21:36	gfredericks	holy crap
21:36	gfredericks	afaik you can't
21:36	casion	maan, functional programming still maakes no sense to me :(
21:36	arohner	(pred q #(== 3 (:foo q)) worked for me
21:37	gfredericks	well if your map is ground you can do that
21:37	arohner	though as amalloy pointed out, that's non-relational
21:37	gfredericks	core.logic doesn't have good support for logic-variables-as-maps; you basically have to match all the keys at once which isn't very useful
21:38	gfredericks	that's partly because there's not a clear way for it to solidify a partially-specified map
21:38	gfredericks	i.e., if you said (run 1 [q] (q-has-value :foo 12)), what should it return?
21:38	gfredericks	(has-value q :foo 12) I should have said
21:39	arohner	{:foo 12} might be reasonable
21:39	arohner	in my particular case, I was selecting a map from a seq of maps
21:39	gfredericks	:/
21:40	gfredericks	also what about (run 1 [q] (fresh [x] (has-value q x 12)))
21:40	arohner	It appears I don't have goalo
21:40	gfredericks	that was an argument
21:41	arohner	oh, right
21:42	xeqi	gfredericks: couldn't that use the same value of x that (run1 [q] (fresh [x] (== q [x 12]))) would?
21:42	gfredericks	xeqi: it could; all these things feel a little icky though
21:43	gfredericks	the former because it doesn't distinguish between "this map might have had more keys" and "this map couldn't have more keys"
21:44	arohner	does it need to? that seems like a separate constraint
21:44	gfredericks	I mean the value returned from run
21:46	gfredericks	(run 2 [q] (conde ((firsto q 7)) ((== q [7])))) return two different things
21:46	muhoo	emezeske: it looks to me like lein-cljs plugin somehow manages to pull in support, but i can't figure out where it actually gets that or how it finds it or where it gets it from
21:47	gfredericks	while (run 2 [q] (conde ((has-key q :foo 7)) ((== q {:foo 7})))) wouldn't
21:49	muhoo	emezeske: nm, i found it, cljsbuild (without the lein-)
22:04	arohner	gfredericks: I'm getting stackoverflows when I use your everyo
22:04	arohner	(l/run* [q] (everyo #(l/membero % [4 5 6]) q))
22:04	amalloy	Raynes: lazybot seems to have passed out
22:05	muhoo	,(l/run* [q] (everyo #(l/membero % [4 5 6]) q))
22:05	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: l, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
22:06	muhoo	bot appears to be alive, alhough it doesn't seem to do core.logic :-)
22:06	amalloy	muhoo: does that look like lazybot to you?
22:06	muhoo	it looks like a bot to me
22:07	muhoo	,are you a bot?
22:07	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: are in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
22:07	gfredericks	arohner: that gives you a stack overflow?
22:07	muhoo	,guards
22:07	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: guards in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
22:07	arohner	gfredericks: yes, running c.l 0.7.5
22:07	muhoo	,"foo"
22:07	clojurebot	"foo"
22:07	muhoo	ah, clojurebot
22:07	muhoo	#"foo"
22:08	muhoo	which one is ##"foo"
22:09	gfredericks	arohner: it might just be that's how the infinite-answers thing manifests itself
22:09	gfredericks	(run 5 ...) works fine for me
22:09	muhoo	&"alive?"
22:10	arohner_	ah, yes
22:10	arohner_	run* .. gives stackoverflow, run 5 terminates immediately. thanks
22:11	mk	gfredericks: namespace's map actually is implemented as an atom, for what it's worth
22:11	gfredericks	mk: cool
22:14	goodieboy	technomancy: is it possible to use .lein-classpath when the plugin requires dependencies that the project doesn't have?
22:15	goodieboy	... my plugin is using the "fs" library, but when testing in my project, "fs" can't be found
22:17	casion	as I don't think I have a proper grasp of functional programming yet, can someone look at this http://ideone.com/JUDLG and give me some clues on how to do it better?
22:18	casion	it's just a small simulation of aa very simple game i suppose
22:18	casion	it looks awful to me but I can't think of how else to approach it
22:20	Raynes	The variety of pastebins people use in here never ceases to amaze me.
22:20	Raynes	:p
22:21	casion	heh, yeah
22:22	Raynes	I think it'd be fun to write a pastebin.
22:22	casion	I wrote that on my ipad while out on the porch, so it was already there
22:22	Raynes	I'd want it to look like https://www.refheap.com
22:22	casion	convenient
22:22	xeqi	I think it'd be fun to break a pastebin
22:23	cmajor7	what is the use of "#{::user}"? it evaluates to a current namespace, e.g. #{current.ns/user}, but what is the purpose?
22:24	Raynes	cmajor7: Sometimes you need there to be a difference between the :foo from the bar namespace and the :foo from the baz namespace.
22:24	Raynes	It isn't particularly common though.
22:24	cmajor7	I am looking at "friend" roles
22:25	cmajor7	they are defined as #{::user ::admin ::etc}, and was wondering on how to store them in DB
22:25	cmajor7	I guess I can just store them as user, admin and such..
22:26	cmajor7	do you know the "friend"'s purpose? thx
22:26	gfredericks	,(name ::admin)
22:26	clojurebot	"admin"
22:27	cmajor7	gfredericks: but ,(name :admin)
22:27	cmajor7	is also "admin"
22:27	gfredericks	yep
22:29	cmajor7	mm… do you know why "friend" for example uses "::"?
22:29	gfredericks	nope
22:30	cmajor7	e.g. https://www.refheap.com/paste/3951
22:30	gfredericks	it's used as a value rather than a key?
22:30	cmajor7	it is a set..
22:31	cmajor7	what do you mean "rather than a key"?
22:31	gfredericks	a key in a map
22:31	xeqi	cmajor7: in order to use `derive` to make a heirarchy the keywords need to be namespaced
22:31	gfredericks	I guess I can imagine a justification
22:31	gfredericks	ooh that
22:32	gfredericks	that sounds by far the most likely
22:32	xeqi	you can actually have the roles be anything if I remember correctly
22:32	xeqi	you just don't get the ability to `derive` a heirarchy then
22:35	cmajor7	xeqi: I see.. reading about it now. thank you
22:56	muhoo	cmajor7: :: is a fully qualified symbol, no?
22:56	muhoo	,::foo
22:56	clojurebot	:sandbox/foo
22:57	cmajor7	right, "it" is just a "current name space forward slash it"
22:58	gfredericks	&(identical? (keyword "foo/bar") (keyword "foo" "bar"))
22:58	gfredericks	,(identical? (keyword "foo/bar") (keyword "foo" "bar"))
22:58	clojurebot	true
23:03	muhoo	emezeske: if you're around, i'm trying to figure out exactly how lein-cljsbuild pulls in cljsbuild, so i can do some checkouts stuff to work on it
23:03	muhoo	actually, it'd be great to hear what your workflow is for working on lein-cljsbuild, i might as well start with that
23:05	muhoo	actually, in general how to use a plugin from checkouts, might be an interesting question
23:09	Raynes	amalloy: You have access to the VPS too btw.
23:15	amalloy	yeah, but you do weird shit with lazybot and if i touch him you get annoyed
23:16	technomancy	is anyone still seeing the bug where C-c C-k with nrepl.el would occasionally take a few tries to go all the way through?
23:16	Raynes	amalloy: Dude. All I do is run ./lazybot
23:16	Raynes	Seriously, that's precisely all I do.
23:16	technomancy	I can't repro, but I can't tell if I'm just getting lucky or if the bug is gone
23:16	Raynes	I mean, I do it in a tmux session, but that isn't required. :P
23:17	technomancy	dude, at least nohup it
23:17	Raynes	Why?
23:17	clojurebot	why not?
23:17	Raynes	I stick it in a tmux session so I can attach and watch over my world.
23:18	technomancy	I guess if everyone has access to the tmux session it's fine
23:18	Raynes	Why would anyone else need access to my tmux session?
23:18	technomancy	I dunno; it's fine; disregard
23:18	Raynes	amalloy doesn't care about lazybot's output unless it stops doing it in which case he just wants to restart it which doesn't involve my tmux session at all.
23:18	Raynes	:P
23:19	technomancy	but if you do run it outside a tmux, then you should use nohup
23:19	amalloy	for what it's worth i nohup 4clojure, but i don't know why
23:19	technomancy	from seeing how clojars is deployed I found upstart to be surprisingly simple
23:19	technomancy	it is nice if everything works via familiar /etc/init.d scripts
23:20	Raynes	technomancy: What does nohup do? Apparently I don't understand.
23:21	Raynes	I thought it was to make it run in the background.
23:21	technomancy	it prevents it from exiting when the parent process (bash in this case) terminates
23:21	Raynes	Which is what tmux does for me in the first place.
23:21	Raynes	But tmux never terminates.
23:21	technomancy	right, I meant if you run it outside tmux you need it
23:21	Raynes	Oh, reading comprehension.
23:22	technomancy	but upstart is much nicer
23:22	Raynes	I thought you said 'inside'.
23:22	amalloy	technomancy: i've also never seen a process end when my bash ends
23:22	amalloy	so i wonder if perhaps nohup is a relic of simpler times, when that happened?
23:22	Raynes	I sure have.
23:22	Raynes	amalloy: As a matter of fact, I've killed 4clojure like that before.
23:22	technomancy	it happens
23:23	technomancy	http://groups.google.com/group/clojars-maintainers/browse_thread/thread/d4149ec96316d5b1/4c66317ac3ecd9bb?lnk=gst&q=upstart#4c66317ac3ecd9bb <- nice description of clojars' upstart usage from _ato
23:25	technomancy	I'm going to go out on a limb and say that particular nrepl.el bug is gone
23:28	muhoo	technomancy: nrepl.el is very very cool, thanks, i'm now switched over to using it
23:29	Raynes	muhoo: Welcome to the resistance.
23:29	muhoo	technomancy: sorry for so brutally whacking the popups, but all the popups had turned my sessions into an experience not unlike browsing porn sites.
23:29	technomancy	muhoo: oh, haha; irc/github nick mismatch =)
23:29	Raynes	You would know.
23:30	technomancy	I think you're right about the repl experience, but the fix in that pull request was just a bit too far-reaching
23:30	muhoo	agreed, i was just in a hurry
23:31	technomancy	muhoo: so you actually prefer just seeing the message going to stdout vs the whole trace?
23:31	muhoo	actually, what i've come to really enjoy is the way lein does it: a single-line clj-stacktrace summary
23:31	muhoo	and (pst) to get the rest if needed
23:32	muhoo	though, a hotkey in emacs to pop up the (pst) would be slick, so as not to pollute the repl buffer with a huge stacktrace
23:32	technomancy	what if clj-stacktrace omitted irrelevant frames by default?
23:32	muhoo	i think it does already, or at least shortens them
23:32	hiredman	as always, I object, who decides what is irrelevant?
23:33	technomancy	hiredman: I know you object =)
23:33	technomancy	I'm asking muhoo because it never occurred to me that the behaviour of only showing .getMessage was actually preferred by anyone
23:33	muhoo	well, look. i type (ns 'foobar) too many times
23:33	hiredman	removing stack traces is optimizing for ignorance, it makes a better experience for people who can't read them
23:34	muhoo	and, a whole host of errors i make constantly in a repl, like (require foo.bar.baz) instead of (require 'foo.bar.baz)
23:34	muhoo	do i really need a 2-page stacktrace every time?
23:34	technomancy	muhoo: I'm just wondering if you're objecting to their length or their presence at all
23:35	technomancy	I think reply must have some magic to auto-refer clojure.repl into every ns or something... interesting
23:35	muhoo	i'm objecting to (1) popups in general, they disorient me, and (2) huge spews when i just made a typo
23:35	technomancy	muhoo: sure, I'm saying what if the trace went to stdout instead
23:36	technomancy	and if they were shorter
23:36	muhoo	i actually wrote a hack for noir where it sends the stacktrace to /tmp/noir-error.clj, and then i auto-revert-mode a buffer that has taht in it
23:37	muhoo	so when i blow something up, i just go to the buffer (or have it open in another window) and look at it, and the most recent error to occur is right there looking at me, with the top frame at the top, etc. (and some context and ring-request at the bottom too)
23:38	muhoo	i like full stacktraces, and i enjoy the way clj-stacktrace cleans them up.
23:39	muhoo	but i also like not having to look at them, when often the first line is all i need.
23:39	muhoo	(also nice not to have to scroll around to find the top of them, which is why i wrote that hack for noir/ring)
23:39	technomancy	sure
23:40	technomancy	I think you can actually set :caught in :repl-options in project.clj if you want to tweak it
23:40	muhoo	cool, i'll take a look at that.
23:40	technomancy	at least you could in 1.x; hopefully that's still possible
23:40	technomancy	anyway, that would let you swap between prn and pst
23:41	muhoo	well, i'm fully converted over to lein2 now, so i'd have to find a way that works with it
23:42	technomancy	I actually didn't even know that the default was just to show the exception message
23:42	muhoo	really? wow. you've been using swank i presume
23:43	technomancy	only started paying attention to lein repl now with nrepl.el
23:46	muhoo	i see no :caught in leiningen/sample-project.clj
23:47	technomancy	it might not be documented; try putting it in :repl-options
23:49	muhoo	i'll try, but the word "caught" appears nowhere in the lein2 source
23:49	technomancy	yeah, it would get passed through to reply
23:55	amalloy	technomancy: oh, is reply the one responsible for me no longer getting reasonable exception messages in swank?
23:55	amalloy	or are those not related?
23:56	technomancy	hrm
23:56	technomancy	unrelated
23:56	technomancy	you may be getting bit by a clj-stacktrace bug?
23:57	amalloy	maybe. i've never included clj-stacktrace on purpose
23:57	technomancy	it comes for free
23:57	technomancy	because it's too awesome not to
23:58	amalloy	how can i disable it? i've had nothing but grief anytime i've had a project that uses it
23:58	technomancy	... what?
23:58	technomancy	how ... I mean
23:59	technomancy	why would you want gross normal stack traces?
23:59	amalloy	stacktraces coming from inside clj-stacktrace's processing code, instead of from my code
23:59	technomancy	oh, right
23:59	amalloy	so that i can't track down any damn thing
23:59	technomancy	first thing would be to bug chouser to make his clj-stacktrace changes public so I stop procrastinating on the project
23:59	technomancy	second thing would be to switch to nrepl.el