#clojure – 2012-07-10

2012-07-10

01:18	yankov	hm, is huge functions like that https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/core.clj#L54 considered as a good practice in clojure?
01:21	scottj	yankov: depends on the function. rhickey writes long functions with big incremental lets.
01:22	yankov	looks crazy. is it easier to read when you know the language more?
01:24	arohner_	yankov: usually, that is not good style. However, this during the bootstrap of the core namespace, so we cut it some slack
01:24	amalloy	no. to read that, you probably need to study the language for a year, and the function for a week
01:24	arohner_	and it has to be crazy fast
01:25	yankov	ja
01:25	yankov	ha
01:25	amalloy	arohner_: that's part of the macroexpander - doesn't have to be that fast really, just acceptable
01:26	scottj	arohner_: upped your taxi comment on hn :)
01:26	arohner_	amalloy: I'm not so sure. Parts of that have to run at runtime
01:26	arohner_	scottj: ha! thanks
01:26	amalloy	arohner_: the generated code does, yes
01:30	yonatane	i see rich started implementing clojure without a parser. How did he know it even works?
01:31	arohner	yonatane: lisp is designed to be easy to parse. And Rich is pretty smart
01:31	yonatane	:)
01:31	arohner	and he'd written a few other lisps before
01:31	yonatane	which lisps?
01:32	yonatane	actually he also doesn't like test driven programming, according to one of the talks
01:32	arohner	I don't remember the exact names. Something like jFOIL and jFLI
01:32	yankov	got a link?
01:33	arohner	I don't know that the sites are up anymore
01:33	scottj	jfli, Foil, Lisplets, or DotLisp
01:33	scottj	google
01:33	yankov	what are some examples of well-written clojure app?
01:34	arohner	yankov: https://circleci.com/ :-)
01:34	arohner	that's my site, BTW
01:34	yankov	arohner: oh, i was singed up. awesome idea :)
01:35	scottj	yankov: open source ones?
01:35	yankov	i think I received an email that you guys started testing, but haven't tried yet
01:35	yankov	scottj: yup
01:35	yankov	arohner: but circleci is not open-sourced though? so there's no way to check out the code P)
01:36	arohner	I was being cheeky because you didn't specify
01:36	scottj	yankov: leiningen. almost all open source clojure are libraries.
01:36	arohner	there are lots of great OSS libraries
01:36	yankov	thanks, I'll check out
01:40	mcohen	looking for some help with lein
01:40	scottj	yankov: I remember enjoying reading code for https://github.com/mjg123/pacman/tree/gh-pages
01:40	mcohen	i've got the preview7 version of lein 2.0
01:40	mcohen	but it can't find leiningen.core.main once it's "booted" clojure in the repl
01:41	mcohen	so if i edit the lein script, to remove the "leiningen.core.main "$@"" at the end of the invocation to start the jvm, at about line 214, it works fine
01:41	mcohen	clojure starts up and i get the clojure repl
01:42	mcohen	but if i include that last bit - "leiningen.core.main "$@" - then I get a Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError:
01:42	mcohen	and if i look in the stnadalone jar, i don't actually see a main.class under leiningen/core
01:43	mcohen	i see a bunch of main_xxxx.class files
01:43	mcohen	but no plain old main.class
02:14	augustl	how can I make "lein test" keep the jvm running and only reload the files that change?
02:14	augustl	I don't want autotesting, I'd prefer to be able to manually tell it when to start running tests
02:23	ivan	do I have to bother someone to get my messages to the Clojure list to go through?
02:24	ivan	or maybe someone else could also tell "critique my code!" guy about (pst)
03:00	FND	hi - I've just started learning Clojure (I don't have much of a Java background), and can't quite make sense of some code samples I'm looking at
03:01	FND	in particular, I don't understand leading and trailing dots: e.g. `let [dict (java.util.HashMap.)]` -- why the trailing dot?
03:02	Nican	http://clojure.org/java_interop
03:02	Nican	The dot is creating a new instance of the java object.
03:02	FND	ah, thanks!
03:13	ro_st	ibdknox: 0.0.7 looks great!
03:14	ro_st	i'm just not sure how to update it. i've run both the installer command and the simple ./light table commands, but the ui i get doesn't look like the one in your announcement (no live button or bottom-right menu). and it tells me 0.0.8 is available ?
03:15	ro_st	ah, just found ./light update 0.0.7. it's downloading.
03:25	FND	ah I see Light Table is a valid topic for discussion here - in that case: how can I add something to the class path (using v0.0.8, installed this morning)
03:27	ro_st	FND, looks like there is a channel #lighttable
03:28	FND	roger, thanks
04:35	michaelr525	good morning :)
04:35	michaelr525	late morning
04:39	ro_st	lein ring server is supposed to reload clj files, right?
04:44	michaelr525	ro_st: it works for me.. but i
04:44	michaelr525	i'm not sure it works all the time
04:57	ro_st	me neither. it's also not clear what will be reloaded and what won't
04:57	ro_st	should probably RTFM :-)
04:58	FND	there's a revolver joke in there somewhere
05:00	ro_st	so, i have a requirement for a vector of maps to be kept in a particular order. i see we have sorted sets and sorted maps. do we have sorted vectors?
05:02	hyPiRion	ro_st: Like a red-black tree?
05:03	hyPiRion	I don't think so.
05:03	ro_st	this is actually a question about clojurescript. i have a list of nodes (each with a viz representation). the user can add nodes to the end or anywhere in the middle. i'm trying to figure out how to model this with clojure's data structures
05:04	ro_st	an additional constraint is that there is a separate list of node templates that have a proscribed order. that order needs to be kept intact when nodes are created in the active list
05:04	ro_st	in good old js, this'd be an array and i'd use push or .splice as appropriate
05:07	ro_st	i'm thinking i'll start with sorted-set and see where that gets me
06:05	the-kenny	sorted-set doesn't sound right
06:31	wingy	how do i check what dep versions i have installed
06:31	wingy	lein deps show nothing
06:33	michaelr525	wingy: ls lib
06:33	wingy	michaelr525: its empty
06:34	wingy	eg. in node i could just do "npm ls" and it would list all installed deps and their versions
06:34	wingy	so if i specified "2.1.x" in the package.json i could now see what version was installed
06:35	wingy	or "2.1"
06:36	ohpauleez	wingy: If lib is empty, you haven't pulled any deps at all
06:36	ohpauleez	you can also look in ~/.m2 to see what deps you have previously pulled
06:36	ohpauleez	(your local maven cache)
06:38	wingy	ohpauleez: how do i pull deps to the local project then?
06:38	ohpauleez	lein deps
06:39	wingy	hm .. nothing happened .. empty line returned
06:39	ohpauleez	are you using lein2?
06:39	wingy	from the help: deps Show details about dependencies.
06:39	wingy	yeah
06:40	ohpauleez	ahh yeah, it'll happen automatic when you do something like `leon repl`
06:40	ohpauleez	lein repl
06:40	ohpauleez	and if you look at `target` you can see a dependency file
06:41	ohpauleez	but your deps are always listed in project.clj
06:41	ohpauleez	so you can just view that file and find out
06:42	wingy	ohpauleez: but i need to find out exact what version was installed
06:43	ohpauleez	wingy: It's in there
06:43	ohpauleez	you have to specify the version in there
06:43	wingy	but what if i specified a range
06:44	ohpauleez	it uses the leading the version I believe. That usage is usually not used
06:49	wingy	http://docs.codehaus.org/display/MAVEN/Dependency+Mediation+and+Conflict+Resolution#DependencyMediationandConflictResolution-DependencyVersionRanges
06:49	wingy	how do i specify a range correctly?
06:50	wingy	this didn't work: [compojure "1.0,2.0"]
06:50	wingy	or perhaps it did
06:52	wingy	no it didnt
06:53	ohpauleez	You wouldn't do that with compojure, You'd specify the exact version you'd using (because the functionality changes between the versions). The only time people typically use the range in on the version of Clojure they depend on, but that's also very very uncommon. See this: http://grokbase.com/t/gg/clojure/126k0fxk67/wildcards-in-leiningen-dependencies-versions
06:53	ohpauleez	and the versions need to be in a seq (a list) I believe
06:56	wingy	ohpauleez: i cant keep watching for new patches all the time manually
06:56	ohpauleez	which is why the leon outdated plugin exists
06:56	ohpauleez	and you don't want to watch for new versions
06:56	the-kenny	wingy: are you on leiningen 2?
06:56	wingy	the-kenny: yeah
06:56	wingy	ohpauleez: i c
06:56	wingy	ill check on that one
06:57	ohpauleez	you want to develop against concrete versions only, and update when you need new functionality
06:57	ohpauleez	so that you stay stable in your project
06:57	the-kenny	wingy: lein deps :tree
06:57	wingy	ohpauleez: yeah sounds pretty logical
06:57	wingy	ohpauleez: but
06:57	ohpauleez	Sometimes I setup my own SNAPSHOT release of a project on clojars
06:57	ohpauleez	when I want to apply new patches myself for my own projects
06:57	wingy	the last nr eg. 2.2.x tends to be for bug fixes and not change features
06:58	ohpauleez	then before deployment, I might cut my own release or switch to an official release
06:59	wingy	the-kenny: thx
07:00	wingy	ohpauleez: https://github.com/ato/lein-outdated ?
07:01	ohpauleez	that'd be the one. Also you can also use `lein help COMMAND` for more info - the-kenny's suggestion is the first piece of help information on the `deps` command docs
07:02	wingy	ok
07:02	wingy	wow lein-outdated rocks
07:03	ohpauleez	the plugin is mentioned in the previous link I gave you (with an argument against the multi versions you were asking about before)
07:03	ohpauleez	so I think you'll find it useful for sure
07:04	wingy	yeah i already find it better than auto update
07:17	wingy	ohpauleez: something like outdated should be in the core of lein
07:18	ohpauleez	it could get merged in eventually, that's not uncommon, but Leiningen's plugin system is powerful and there are many great plugins
07:25	ro_st	what does it mean when someone does this: (def ^:dynamic var-name value)
07:25	ohpauleez	ro_st: It's a dynamic var (and the name should have earmuffs - my-value)
07:25	ohpauleez	it can be rebound in a binding form
07:26	ro_st	and more importantly, can i use it to store captured config values from System/getenv?
07:26	ohpauleez	otherwise, standard (non-dynamic) defs are set for life
07:26	ohpauleez	(like constants)
07:26	ro_st	eg so that i can override these values within midje's background
07:26	nixn	ro_st: http://clojure.org/vars
07:27	ohpauleez	ro_st: You can rebind them whenever you want
07:28	ro_st	so say i have a my.app.config ns which simply gathers values from System/getenv into a bunch of these ^:dynamic values. with midje, would i then have to put all my facts into a (binding) form?
07:29	ro_st	to override those config values
07:30	ro_st	don't want to store config in the code, but for tests, where i want to control the env in which testing occurs, i do want to be able to override config values. trying to determine the simplest way to do this
07:30	ro_st	ohpauleez: how's shoreleave coming along? :-) i've been playing with cljsbuild today, particularly the crossover stuff. works great
07:32	ohpauleez	ro_st: re-dynamic vars - exactly, they're mostly used to store and redefine configs (or resources)
07:32	ohpauleez	shoreleave is coming along! Haven't had as much time to work on the demo apps as I've wanted, but it's getting there!
07:37	ro_st	ohpauleez: is this how i'd do it? https://www.refheap.com/paste/3536
07:38	ohpauleez	Usually binding is a top-level form, like `let`
07:38	ohpauleez	but not sure what the midge specific stuff is
07:38	ro_st	i want to avoid sticking all my facts into a binding because it messes with midje-mode
07:38	ro_st	if the facts aren't top level
07:38	ohpauleez	ahh gotcha
07:39	ro_st	anyone know what brian marick's irc handle is? does he come on here?
07:39	ro_st	otherwise i'll tweetle at him
07:39	haspaker	I've sent my genetic algorithm out on a 200,000 iteration journey
07:40	haspaker	We'll see if it comes up with anything useful after an hour or so
07:40	ro_st	neat! what is its output?
07:41	haspaker	I've feeded the algorithm a function - like (fn[x] (* 10 (+ x 2)))
07:41	haspaker	The goal of the algorithm is to construct a function that is as close to the original function as possible
07:41	haspaker	Without seeing the original function, it can only see what the original function outputs
07:42	haspaker	I've basically constructed to most cumbersome and impractical way ever to do preschool math
07:42	clgv	genetic programming^^
07:43	haspaker	Yeah :P
07:43	ro_st	good luck with that
07:43	ro_st	is this using logic programming?
07:43	haspaker	Depens
07:43	clgv	unlikely
07:43	ro_st	i watched the euroclojure intro to core.logic the other day, very interesting
07:43	haspaker	*depends
07:43	haspaker	What is "logic programming"?
07:43	clgv	haspaker: prolog
07:44	ro_st	https://vimeo.com/45128721
07:45	haspaker	clgv: Ah. Looked it up on wikipedia
07:45	haspaker	And you're right that I don't use it
07:46	haspaker	Didn't even know what it was
07:46	clgv	do you use clojure symbols and constants as building blocks?
07:46	clgv	or more highlevel?
07:52	haspaker	clgv: I use symbols as building blocks
07:52	haspaker	It's only simple math, so all the symbols I need are "+ - * / ) ( x"
07:52	haspaker	And some numbers
07:58	wingy	haspaker: so cool
08:00	ticking	I'm wondering, when is it idiomatic to use multimethods, and when to use pattern matching in defn?
08:01	wingy	ticking: with pattern matching you mean destruction?
08:01	ticking	wingy, yeah
08:01	wingy	or destructuring
08:01	wingy	:)
08:02	wingy	ticking: the latter are used each time when you want to access some elements inside a collection (list, vector, set and map)
08:03	ticking	wingy, yeah I havent quite found a case where I'd use multimethods yet I guess, except for java interop
08:04	wingy	,(defn greet [{:keys [name]}] (str "Hello " name)) (greet {:name "Pete" :age 20})
08:04	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
08:04	wingy	:/
08:04	ticking	hrhr^^
08:05	wingy	ticking: multimethods is something i read yesterday :) i think you will use it when you want something that resembles class system/polymorphism in oop
08:05	clgv	&(letfn [(greet [{:keys [name]}] (str "Hello " name))] (greet :name "Pete" :age 20))
08:05	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (4) passed to: sandbox4972$eval17407$greet
08:05	clgv	&(letfn [(greet [&{:keys [name]}] (str "Hello " name))] (greet :name "Pete" :age 20))
08:05	lazybot	⇒ "Hello Pete"
08:06	wingy	cat and dog is an animal .. but when you do (speak cat) and (speak dog) the former will say "miao" and the latter "woff"
08:07	wingy	oh yeah now i know what sandbox mean, no vars :)
08:11	ticking	(defn noise ([{:dog :type}] (print "woof")) ([{:cat :type}] (print "miau")))
08:11	ticking	thought this would work, so this is where you would need multimethods
08:13	ticking	damn, I really hoped clojure would support this
08:13	wingy	yeah that one would be better refactored into multimethods i think
08:14	ticking	well it doesn't work at all
08:14	nixn	that should be a decision based on types, not on multi-methods
08:14	ticking	I had hoped it would do (noise {:type :cat}) => miao
08:15	ticking	nixn, yeah, it was only a very contrieved example, but clojure doesn't support literals in destructuring right?
08:15	clgv	ticking: no not that way. destructuring is not pattern matching
08:15	ticking	clgv, thanks, that clears up some things, damn I like patter matching ^^
08:16	nixn	s/patter/pattern/ ^^
08:16	wingy	nixn: you mean protocols?
08:16	clgv	you can do (defn noise {:keys [type]}] (case type :dog (print "woof") :cat (print "miau") nil)
08:16	wingy	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8070368/clojure-multimethods-vs-protocols
08:17	clgv	ticking: this is not extendable. implementing it via multimethod would make your noise function extendible to new kinds of animals ;)
08:18	ticking	clgv, right thats a good point, this helps see what multimethods can be used for :) thanks
08:18	nixn	wingy: I'm not quite sure ... a beginner yet
08:19	ticking	clgv, but I think patterns wouldn't hurt either ;)
08:20	clgv	ticking: dnolen is implementing a pattern matching lib "core.match"
08:21	wingy	ticking: seems that you could/should use protocols instead for this simple case: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/defprotocol
08:21	ticking	clgv, awesome ^^
08:22	ticking	wingy, yeah I'm currently reading about those as well
08:22	ticking	I'm wondering if I have something like a rectangle
08:22	wingy	cool im not the only beginner
08:22	wingy	ticking: btw are you using light table to test things out?
08:23	wingy	a good recommendation!
08:23	ticking	should I represent them by doing a map {:x 0 :y 0 :width 5 :height 10} or a record
08:24	clgv	ticking: start off with a map. if you need soething different you can change
08:24	ticking	wingy, currently I'm using clooj, until I get my swank running, once light table is out I'll use that but the playground is too limited for my image processing stuff ^^
08:25	ticking	clgv, thanks I'll do that ^^
08:26	wingy	didnt know about that one
08:29	ticking	wingy, what lead you to clojure^^?
08:30	wingy	ticking: light table lol
08:30	wingy	i always felt that FP was cool .. read about haskell and clojure before the switch
08:31	wingy	then i saw the light table demo and felt that clj code looked cool and gave it a real shot
08:31	wingy	also i used LiveScript on node.js which introduced many FP concepts including a std lib like the one in Haskell
08:32	wingy	so i was totally drawn to FP and wanted to use a real modern FP lang
08:32	wingy	ticking: and you?
08:32	ticking	wingy cool ^^ yeah light table seems to draw a lot og folks towards lisp ^^
08:33	ticking	wingy, I wanted to use a lisp at work and clojure seemed like the one that would most likely get permitted ^^
08:34	wingy	yeah .. watch http://blip.tv/clojure/neal-ford-neal-s-master-plan-for-clojure-enterprise-mindshare-domination-5953926 .. he talks about different strategies to draw people to clj
08:34	wingy	light table is a good step
08:34	ticking	hrhr
08:35	wingy	ticking: its modern and supported by heroku .. one of the criterias that must be fulfilled :)
08:35	ticking	hrhr
08:35	ticking	normally I'm a joxa guy lisp on erlang, feels a bit cleaner than clojure but is by no way widespread^^
08:36	wingy	is there a lisp on erlang?
08:36	ticking	yeah ^^
08:36	wingy	https://github.com/rvirding/lfe
08:36	ticking	well it's on beam (erlang vm) just like clojure is on the jvm
08:37	ticking	nope http://joxa.org/ ^^
08:37	ticking	lfe is a lisp 2
08:37	ticking	I find it annoying if vars and funs reside in different namespaces
08:37	ticking	clojure and joxa are a lisp-1 same namespace for both
08:37	ticking	which does clojure really nice ^^
08:43	wingy	what's up with all that xml :)
08:43	wingy	is it an erlang thing?
08:43	ticking	hu xml ^^?
08:43	wingy	oh
08:43	wingy	no they were just placeholders
08:44	ticking	ah those you mean, yeah thats just macro pattern annotation ^^
08:44	ticking	nothign you see besides the docs
08:44	wingy	ticking: you know erlang?
08:44	ticking	wingy, yeah but I always hated its syntax ^^
08:45	Hodapp	I've never used Erlang but it sounds like it has one of the only models of concurrency that's actually known to scale well in practice
08:45	wingy	perhaps erlang is a better fit with lisp since they are both FP?
08:45	ticking	wingy , totally
08:46	ticking	Hodapp, yeah also its system of concurrency is not only optimized on parallelism but also on robustness and fault tolerance^^
08:47	ticking	makes the whole "let if fail" thing possible
08:47	wingy	ticking: perhaps clojure could be run on erlang some day?
08:47	wingy	just like it is run in .NET, Java and JavaScript
08:48	wingy	then we don't need to switch lang
08:48	ticking	wingy, possible people are creative, but I don't think it would be worth it
08:48	ticking	the cool thing about lisp is that concepts are very uniform across dialects
08:48	wingy	since why would i make that switch to joxa if it only runs on erlang .. and erlang is not as supported as java
08:48	ticking	also clojure has its quirks because its based on jvm, joxa has its quiks from beam
08:49	ticking	wingy, it depends on what you want to do, erlang has a huge supportive user base, but with a different focus than java
08:50	wingy	yeah
08:50	ticking	wingy, erlang is an infrastructure language
08:50	wingy	no matter what i use i will be certain it will be a lisp lang
08:50	wingy	its way ahead of it's time :)
08:50	ticking	hrhr yeah ^
08:52	cshell	cemerick: Is it correct that the openid workflow in friend assumes that the user types his openid identifier in and posts it and then gets redirected to the provider's login screen, rather than allowing the user to select his provider explicitly via chooser?
09:06	bordatou`	okay, i couldn't find how to disable autoupdate in lein, every time when i copy a local jar into lib folder and do a jar then everything gets deleted
09:07	bordatou`	what a mess
09:08	bordatou`	hello
09:08	bordatou`	]
09:10	bordatou`	]
09:10	bordatou`	]
09:11	clgv	bordatou`: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/1.x/sample.project.clj#L59
09:11	cshell	he's gone
09:12	cshell	bordatou`: why are you spamming ']'?
09:13	bordatou`	cshell: i am sorry not spamming
09:13	wingy	does anyone else agree with my comment in here that it should be (do seq) and not (do coll) http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/doall
09:13	wingy	i mean doall
09:15	cshell	bordatou`: <clgv> bordatou`: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/1.x/sample.project.clj#L59
09:15	the-kenny	wingy: doall/dorun calls `seq' on its arguments. `seq's argument is a coll, it returns a seq, so I disagree
09:15	bordatou`	cshell: I know clgv did pointed me to that link, I tried most of the options and still couldn't prevent lein from deleting local jar in lib folder
09:16	bordatou`	cshell: i tried update online?
09:16	wingy	the-kenny: but that detail shouldn't be told to the users .. its implementation detail .. eg. you should pass a sequence to it .. but it is nice to you and would auto convert if you passed a coll
09:17	wingy	coll is not a seq .. so looking at the signature you can't pass a seq
09:17	wingy	but a seq would work
09:17	wingy	(its the only one that works but its auto converting for you in the background)
09:18	wingy	another question: collections cant be lazy? they are concrete data structures right?
09:18	the-kenny	The docstring could be clearer
09:18	cshell	bordatou`: line 59
09:19	wingy	the signature as well .. where can i post change requests like this?
09:19	wingy	for clojuredocs and the original one
09:20	cshell	pull requests on github?
09:20	wingy	for clojure or clojuredocs?
09:20	bordatou`	cshell: all this time i have been looking at https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/preview/sample.project.clj
09:21	the-kenny	wingy: Clojure. You should open a ticket in JIRA for this
09:21	clgv	&(doseq [x [[] '() {} #{}] (println (doall x)))
09:21	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )
09:21	clgv	&(doseq [x [[] '() {} #{}] (println (doall x))
09:21	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading, starting at line 1
09:22	clgv	&(doseq [x [[] '() {} #{}]] (println (doall x)))
09:22	lazybot	⇒ [] () {} #{} nil
09:22	cshell	bordatou`: yeah, that's for 2+
09:22	clgv	wingy: so "coll" is right
09:22	bordatou`	damm, thanks cshell.
09:22	wingy	clgv: ok since i can pass a coll then it should be like that i guess
09:23	cshell	np
09:23	wingy	but since i can pass a seq as well shouldn't it at least be in the signature as well?
09:23	wingy	(doall coll\|seq)
09:23	clgv	wingy: you stick too much to unimportant details...
09:24	wingy	details are not unimportant :)
09:24	wingy	seq is not coll
09:24	wingy	,(seq? [1 2 3])
09:24	clojurebot	false
09:24	ohpauleez	,(sequential? [1 2 3])
09:24	clojurebot	true
09:24	ohpauleez	wingy ^
09:25	octagon	is there a rich hickey chia pet available for purchase?
09:25	octagon	if not, can someone please get that going?
09:25	ohpauleez	,(seqable? [1 2 3])
09:25	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: seqable? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
09:26	ohpauleez	wait, that's in contrib, use sequential
09:26	michaelr`	,(seq [1 2 3])
09:26	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
09:27	wingy	ohpauleez: that means the correct thing is to have (doall sequential)
09:27	ohpauleez	no it does not
09:27	ohpauleez	,(sequential? (seq [1 2 3]))
09:27	clojurebot	true
09:27	ohpauleez	,(sequential [1 2 3])
09:27	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: sequential in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
09:28	ohpauleez	,(sequential? [1 2 3])
09:28	clojurebot	true
09:28	wingy	(doall coll) .. thats what i am saying
09:28	wingy	oh wrong
09:29	ohpauleez	you can pass in anything that is sequential, seq, collection, etc -for the reason suggested above. But fundamentally, anywhere you see "coll" this is usually true
09:29	wingy	i mean (doall sequential) seems right since you can pass whatever that is sequential? .. a coll or a seq
09:29	ohpauleez	but seq? and sequential? are not the same
09:29	wingy	(doall coll) means (doall (seq [1 2])) wouldn't work
09:30	the-kenny	,(coll? (seq [1 2 3]))
09:30	clojurebot	true
09:30	the-kenny	,(coll? [1 2 3])
09:30	clojurebot	true
09:30	wingy	ok that was something new :)
09:30	ohpauleez	because collections implement sequential
09:30	clgv	(inc the-kenny)
09:30	the-kenny	\o/
09:31	ohpauleez	they're all tries underneath, afaik
09:44	wingy	ok made this i think would help me get it more: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3538
09:51	clgv	&(seq? (cons 1 nil))
09:51	lazybot	⇒ true
09:52	wingy	clgv: yeah
09:54	wingy	according to this one https://www.refheap.com/paste/3538 when it says coll in the doc it means all colls and seqs since seqs are colls .. i thought it wasnt
09:57	wingy	its updated if you (all beginners here) want the latest one :)
09:59	michaelr`	cool.. i replaced jetty with aleph and the percieved page loading speed seemed to improved noticeably
10:00	wingy	michaelr`: did you need to change your source code to fit aleph async style?
10:00	michaelr`	wingy: nope
10:00	wingy	cool
10:00	michaelr`	wingy: it has ring-compatible sync mode
10:00	wingy	nice
10:01	michaelr`	check here if you are interested: https://github.com/ztellman/aleph/wiki/HTTP
10:01	wingy	thx
10:09	minikomi	hi there
10:09	cmiles74	Good morning :)
10:09	minikomi	good evening (from tokyo!)
10:10	cmiles74	:P That's far from Western Massachusetts.
10:10	minikomi	haha
10:10	minikomi	I just tried to run this on 4clojure but keep getting a time out.. https://www.refheap.com/paste/3539
10:11	minikomi	is there something silly I missed?
10:11	minikomi	(problem 115..)
10:11	cmiles74	I pasted it in and it ran in 0.045 secs... I'm using Clojure 1.3
10:11	locojay1	hi i would like to apply multiple functions to a sequence using map. i could do (comp f1 f2 ...) but this would require that each function has same return value (elem of sequence). my function only do some monger update's. thanks
10:12	minikomi	bummer
10:12	minikomi	seems the site is a bit wonky at the moment haha
10:12	cmiles74	Ah.
10:12	minikomi	local repl is also 30~50 ms for me
10:13	cmiles74	minikomi: Here's a gist of the same code, https://gist.github.com/3083515
10:13	minikomi	all but the last one pass for http://www.4clojure.com/problem/115 haha.. it times out..
10:15	tmciver	locojay1: how about using juxt?
10:15	locojay1	tmciver: thanks this is it.
10:15	gfredericks	locojay1: can you give an example input and output?
10:19	minikomi	bummer
10:19	minikomi	well, guess I'll go to bed & try again tomorrow haha
10:21	locojay1	gfrederikcks : input is a sequence of integers, and i would like to apply multiple functions which update some stuff in mongodb given a integer . so there's no reall output.
10:22	gfredericks	locojay1: ah ha, so it is side effects; I would use doseq; (doseq [n my-ints] (f1 n) (f2 n) (f3 n))
10:23	gfredericks	I think that's what you're asking for
10:23	gfredericks	also (doseq [n my-ints] (doto n (f1) (f2) (f3))) would work too I think
10:25	locojay1	thanks
10:29	locojay1	that's what i was looking let each number supplied to multiple function instead of using comp and have each function return the same input
10:31	gfredericks	juxt does something similar, but is more pure-function-style rather than side-effect-style
10:36	locojay1	since i m doing db plumming i guess doto is better as docs this.
10:36	gfredericks	,(doc doto)
10:36	clojurebot	"([x & forms]); Evaluates x then calls all of the methods and functions with the value of x supplied at the front of the given arguments. The forms are evaluated in order. Returns x. (doto (new java.util.HashMap) (.put \"a\" 1) (.put \"b\" 2))"
10:36	duck1123	(doall (for [n my-ints f ['f1 'f2 'f3]] (f n)))
10:37	gfredericks	duck1123: doseq could do that too couldn't it?
10:37	duck1123	well, doseq won't save the result. Can doseq take multiple pairs?
10:37	duck1123	I guess I don't do that enough
10:38	gfredericks	&(doseq [a [1 2], b [:hey :ho]] (println a b))
10:38	lazybot	⇒ 1 :hey 1 :ho 2 :hey 2 :ho nil
10:38	gfredericks	duck1123: he said no output so I assume saving the result would be unnecessary and wasteful
10:38	duck1123	true
10:55	edge86	what's the term for extra keywords in arguments such as this here?
10:55	edge86	(for [x (range 100000000) y (range 1000000) :while (< y x)] [x y])
10:55	edge86	I want to learn about them but they're tricky to google. for clairity, I'm looking at the :while in the above line
10:57	ohpauleez	edge86: Optional keyword arguments
10:57	edge86	thanks!
10:57	ohpauleez	you get them doing something like: (defn my-func [arg & opts] (let [optional-args (apply hash-map opts)] ..))
10:58	ohpauleez	edge86: np
11:03	augustl	how do I "map" a map? Need to run all values through a function.
11:03	nDuff	augustl: zipmap?
11:03	augustl	nDuff: looking it up, tnx
11:05	nDuff	augustl: ie. (let new-map (zipmap (keys old-map) (map some-fn (values old-map)))
11:08	michaelr`	also:
11:08	michaelr`	,(into {} (map (fn [p] p) {:a 1 :b 2}))
11:08	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
11:14	gfredericks	,(into {} (map identity {:a 1 :b 2}))
11:14	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
11:14	gfredericks	,(into {} {:a 1 :b 2})
11:14	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
11:22	ttimvisher	what's the easiest way to get a reference to a private field on an object?
11:24	gfredericks	if there's nothing in the clojure Reflector class then probably just through the standard java reflection api
11:24	gfredericks	the clojure Reflector might not be public-intended in any case
11:30	david	Hello.
11:31	david	I have a map that I'd like to traverse and for each item I'd like to do a test and if that test is true I'd do some side-effect such as println. What would be the best construct to use for this?
11:32	david	I meant *tree not map
11:33	ttimvisher	gfredericks: thanks for the pointer
11:34	locojay1	what is the correct syntax for something link (defn play [elem & args] (doto elem args)) (play 3 println println) should output 33. but i get ArraySeq cannot be cast to Fn. thanks
11:35	ttimvisher	actually, my problem may be even more complicated. I'm getting a reference to an implementation of a service from a spring classpath context and the instance variable is obviously only in the implementation class
11:35	ttimvisher	:)
11:35	gfredericks	locojay1: try (doseq [f args] (f elem)), or ((apply juxt args) elem)
11:39	locojay1	same issue its more why can i wrap inside a function ((juxt print print) 3) works and output is 33 but (defn play [elem & forms] ((juxt forms) elem)) will output error
11:42	nDuff	locojay: I'm wondering if perhaps you want (apply juxt forms) there.
11:42	duck1123	because forms is a sequence where juxt takes just functions. (you'll need to use apply)
11:43	locojay1	thanks
11:43	nDuff	locojay: I suspect that you want (play 3 print print) to become ((juxt print print) 3) rather than ((juxt (print print)) 3)
11:44	sayyestolife	Ok. My previous IRC-client bugged out so I'll try again.
11:44	sayyestolife	I have a tree that I'd like to traverse and for each item I'd like to do a test and if that test is true I'd do some side-effect such as println. What would be the best construct to use for this?
11:45	foxdonut	any thoughts on having 'map' only once in (->> coll (map f1) (map f2) (map f3)) ?
11:47	nickmbailey	do cljs projects handle javascript dependency management with lein somehow?
11:48	foxdonut	score another one for the rubber duck. (map (comp f3 f2 f1) coll)
11:55	_wingy	what would one use xml for in clojure land?
11:56	duck1123	producing or reading?
11:56	RickInGA	_wingy: probably interfacing with other systems
11:56	duck1123	namespace aware?
11:56	_wingy	or is the mentality to move away from it as far as possible
11:56	foxdonut	web services perhaps
11:57	_wingy	RickInGA: yeah thats what i thought about. Do you think its ok to only provide JSON http api?
11:58	_wingy	duck1123: both i guess
11:58	foxdonut	_wingy: who is consuming your api?
11:58	duck1123	for producing, just hiccup works well enough for me
11:59	_wingy	no one atm. i need to know if xml is someone we should provide or is it ok to ditch it eniterely
11:59	duck1123	for reading, it depends on if you need ns-support
11:59	nDuff	Hmm.
11:59	_wingy	some web services only have xml support others have only json
12:00	_wingy	they dont care about their users need they choose what feels right for them
12:01	_wingy	is that stupied since youl could have both the xml and json customers if you provide both
12:01	duck1123	I like xml-picker-seq if you need ns-support
12:04	duck1123	of course, now that I look over the relevant code. I'm wondering if I'm actually using that lib anymore or am completely using XOM
12:06	kaoD	hi
12:08	uvtc	hi, kaoD
12:16	dnolen	nDuff: I looked at the patch, looks OK, if you add some tests I'll apply.
12:23	nDuff	dnolen: nod. Will repost w/ a test case added shortly.
12:33	dnolen_	nDuff: yeah testing CLJS via Node not recommended.
12:33	nDuff	...hrm; we have some other tests that assume a default namespace of user.
12:37	nDuff	dnolen_: Updated patch attached.
12:44	dnolen_	nDuff: one thing I'm confused by is why we need the reader-ns dynamic var ... why can't we just create-ns w/ the cljs-ns
12:48	droidboi	i am looking for work in london
12:49	droidboi	UK
12:50	droidboi	what are the type of jobs there
12:50	nDuff	dnolen_: ...oooh. Actually, in trying to fix things up, I broke some of the original intent.
12:51	droidboi	banking?
12:51	nDuff	dnolen_: ...if I'm following correctly, reader-ns was intended to be a gensym to distinguish it from any namespace the user might _intentionally_ be trying to refer to.
12:52	droidboi	or more broadly, 'finance'.
12:52	droidboi	what is the typical job
12:53	nDuff	dnolen_: ...that said -- I don't know the code in question well enough to really be comfortable with the solution in question; this really was just a direct port of DSkarda's patch.
12:53	dnolen_	nDuff: I don't follow. this is about handling ::foo. not :alias/foo or :fill-ins/foo
12:53	dnolen_	nDuff: er :full-ns/foo
12:54	dnolen_	nDuff: so I don't see why we need any of those dynamic vars, could be missing something tho ...
12:56	nDuff	Oooh.
12:57	nDuff	Investigating that, found a bigger bug (places where the test suite was explicitly testing for wrong behavior)
12:59	dnolen_	nDuff: in the reader tests?
13:00	nDuff	in core.test, ie. (assert (= #{:user/shape} (parents ::rect)))
13:00	nDuff	...but that's within (ns cljs.core-test)
13:00	dnolen_	nDuff: ah right, yeah, probably copy and pasted old tests.
13:02	nDuff	dnolen_: ...so, reverting the non-test code and making the line "(if-let [form (binding [ns (create-ns ana/cljs-ns)] (read rdr nil nil))]" results in some of those being expanded to :cljs.user/* rather than :cljs.core-test/*, which isn't right...
13:03	dnolen_	nDuff: "some" ?
13:04	nDuff	Presumably all, but haven't explicitly validated contrary.
13:04	nDuff	(some (constantly true)) => true, after all.
13:05	dnolen_	nDuff: so worth investigating why cljs-ns doesn't handle this. seems to unexpected to me.
13:10	dnolen_	nDuff: ok I understand what's going.
13:10	nDuff	dnolen_: ...well, I don't really understand the logic here. We're setting up the ns for the reader just once, at the beginning of form-seq, right? So even if cljs-ns gets rebound partway through, it seems fully expected to me that the ns wouldn't change. If there's something in the code that's expected to handle that case correctly by intent, well I don't know it well enough to follow.
13:10	dnolen_	nDuff: read time vs. analyze time problem, still think the intention of the old patch could be clearer.
13:11	dnolen_	::foo -> :cljs-unknown-ns/foo, which we can fix when we encounter keywords via analysis.
13:12	dnolen_	nDuff: ^ this was the intention of the original patch.
13:12	nDuff	nodnod.
13:12	nDuff	that's what I was intending (and failing) to describe earlier when I was talking about why there was a gensym in the first version.
13:13	dnolen_	nDuff: the original patch is good, it should be left alone, just updated for master. Would be nice to add a comment on what reader-ns is, a namespace that most be resolved at analysis time.
13:14	nDuff	...well, it's not quite good -- I was getting a test failure off it.
13:14	dnolen_	nDuff: I mean skarda's patch - what was failing?
13:15	nDuff	Hmm -- runs fine now. scratches head
13:16	dnolen_	nDuff: skarda's patch updated for master + tests welcome and will be applied.
13:16	nDuff	nod. Generated, will be posted shortly.
13:16	dnolen_	nDuff: a comment around the role of reader-ns please if you don't mind.
13:17	dnolen_	nDuff: thx much.
13:18	nDuff	dnolen_: attached as CLJS-266-r3.patch
13:26	dnolen_	nDuff: applied to master
13:26	wingy	is there a reason for "get" to be a function when you can just use the collection as the function?
13:27	wingy	and they work exactly the same
13:28	nDuff	(oops -- missed the request for a comment 'til looking back at the channel just now)
13:28	dnolen_	nDuff: I added it, no problem.
13:32	dnolen_	nDuff: thx for the bump on that ticket.
13:49	nDuff	dnolen_: np; very much a scratching-my-own-itch thing. (Using a lot of watchers crossing namespaces, so wanted to have namespaced keys on them)
13:54	kaoD	how can I put a lazy sequence inside another lazy sequence without the inner one being evaluated in the outer cons?
14:05	wingy	working in FP style is like working with cards .. you shuffle them .. you sort them .. you mix them etc
14:06	wingy	each collection is like a deck of cards
14:06	wingy	poker time!
14:09	scriptor	how would you reduce a deck?
14:10	wingy	summing all values?
14:10	TimMc	scriptor: Fire.
14:13	TimMc	(reduce burn flame deck)
14:13	ohpauleez	Interview with Alan Kay by Binstock: http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/interview-with-alan-kay/240003442
14:13	ohpauleez	"the web was done by amateurs"
14:13	ohpauleez	SO good
14:15	ttimvisher	what's the proper `class` test in a multi-method for `{}`?
14:18	ttimvisher	anyone have a preferred way to load up their entire source into swank so that something like `C-c <` works properly?
14:21	bobo_	when i have a running swank with emacs (jack-in). Kan i get it to fetch new dependencies without havint to restart?
14:22	technomancy	bobo_: not really
14:23	bobo_	ok thanks =)
14:23	technomancy	you can manually fetch new versions if you declare a runtime dependency on pomegranate, but there's no good way to apply updates to project.clj
14:24	bobo_	its not that much work to restart it. Just wanted to be sure im not missing something
14:24	madsy	Ahh.. demoscene party coming up, and I'm all out of ideas for demo effects
14:24	madsy	Stupid brain.. work!
14:29	joegallo	ttimvisher: IPersistentSet, probably.
14:30	foxdonut	madsy: pound your head like an old TV
14:30	joegallo	that is, clojure.lang.IPersistentSet.
14:30	ttimvisher	joegallo: referring to the class question? ended up using java.util.Map
14:31	ttimvisher	isa? and implements? continue to confuse me :(
14:31	joegallo	derp, i'm so dumb.
14:31	joegallo	i read that as #{}...
14:31	wingy	ohpauleez: yeha nice article
14:31	joegallo	anyway, yeah, java.util.Map is probably just fine.
14:31	ttimvisher	i'm the dumb one, of course, because i forgot that i was wrapping it in a ref anyway
14:32	ttimvisher	so now i'm trying clojure.lang.Ref
14:32	joegallo	ttimvisher: and it seems that that's good enough for rhickey: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core/reducers.clj#L77
14:32	wingy	ohpauleez: reminds me about Bruce Lee who didn't believe in style as well .. he wanted you to forget style .. there is no style in fighting .. there is the shortest distance between you and the opponent
14:33	wingy	clojure seems pretty good in this aspect .. keep it simple
14:33	ttimvisher	any day Brue Lee comes up in #clojure is a good day
14:34	ttimvisher	:)
14:34	foxdonut	lol
14:35	wingy	principles are universal no matter what field you are in
14:36	ttimvisher	so i've got a multimethod defined with class as the dispatcher
14:36	ttimvisher	i have method defined with clojure.lang.Ref as the dispatch value
14:36	ttimvisher	and when i try to call it with a defined using (ref ...)
14:36	ttimvisher	i get no method found
14:37	ttimvisher	but
14:37	wingy	but his advice on being formless would not be great in this channel :)
14:37	ttimvisher	,(isa? (class (ref {})) clojure.lang.Ref)
14:37	clojurebot	true
14:37	ttimvisher	so what am i missing?
14:37	ttimvisher	,(class (ref {}))
14:37	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Ref
14:38	ttimvisher	interestingly, the stacktrace i get references: clojure.lang.Ref@18ab088
14:38	ttimvisher	and the @ bit changes everytime
14:38	zakwilson	Pastebin a minimal version of your code.
14:39	hiredman	ttimvisher: @18ab088 is part of the hashcode, it is part of the .toString on refs I believe
14:40	hiredman	ttimvisher: are you trying to call a ref as a function?
14:40	hiredman	oh
14:40	ttimvisher	zakwilson, hiredman: https://gist.github.com/3085419
14:41	hiredman	what is class*?
14:41	zakwilson	beat me to it
14:41	hiredman	it doesn't seem to be returning the class, it is returning the instance
14:42	ttimvisher	whoops, not enough clipboard: https://gist.github.com/3085419
14:42	ttimvisher	i'm using that to ignore the other arguments to the function
14:42	hiredman	ttimvisher: run (def write-hotfix nil) then reload your code
14:43	hiredman	most likely you definied the multimethod with a different dispatch function, then changed it
14:43	hiredman	but defmulti behaves like defonce
14:43	ttimvisher	ah that's right!
14:43	ttimvisher	i'm ashamed to admit that bites me more often than not
14:43	ttimvisher	but you're exactly correct
14:43	ttimvisher	thanks!
14:44	ttimvisher	i keep trying to avoid compulsively `clojure-jack-in`ing but it seems like the right thing to do sometimes
14:49	augustl	"Could not locate leinmidje/midje_color__init.class or leinmidje/midje_color.clj on classpath" hmm
14:51	augustl	anyone seen that one before? Got `[lein-midje "1.0.10"]` in plugins and `[midje "1.4.0"]` in dev-dependencies
14:51	mcohen	wondering if anyone can help me figure out why lein repl works fine in an empty dir, but if i lein new app <name> then cd <name> and then lein repl again, i get a NoClassDefFoundError
14:52	mcohen	i've tried lein 1.7.1 and lein 2 preview7
14:53	ToxicFrog	'lein repl' tries to build and load your project so you can interact with it, I think
14:53	ToxicFrog	But I also thought that the default 'app' configuration built out of the box, so that shouldn't be the problem
14:53	ToxicFrog	What's the actual error?
14:54	augustl	hmm lein-midje needs to be both a plugin and a dev-dependency
14:54	mcohen	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError:
14:54	mcohen	Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException:
14:54	technomancy	mcohen: can you put the stack trace on gist or refheap or some such?
14:54	mcohen	sure thing. thanks! one sec
14:55	mcohen	https://gist.github.com/3085504
14:57	mcohen	it takes a few seconds, maybe 10 or so, before you get the "Couldn't Connect" errors being printed
14:57	technomancy	mcohen: what about in lein2?
14:57	mcohen	same thing, but one sec and i'll run it
14:58	augustl	does lein-midje and/or midje have hooks so I can start a server before the tests start running?
14:58	mcohen	https://gist.github.com/3085516
14:58	mcohen	not exactly the same thing actually
14:58	ohpauleez	mcohen: OS, JVM version, and any sort of weird /etc/hosts or firewall/iptables setup?
14:59	technomancy	mcohen: this is a brand new "app" project?
14:59	mcohen	OS X
14:59	mcohen	mcohen$ lein2 -v
14:59	mcohen	Leiningen 2.0.0-preview7 on Java 1.6.0_33 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM
14:59	technomancy	mcohen: try removing the :main line from project.clj
14:59	mcohen	yep, just ran lein new app and didn't touch anything
14:59	technomancy	crazytown
15:00	technomancy	it's possible lein1 populated ~/.m2 with some jars that were corrupted in download
15:00	technomancy	lein2 will refuse to download them if the checksums don't match, but it will use them if lein1 already downloaded them
15:00	technomancy	if removing :main doesn't work try `mv ~/.m2 ~/.m2-bak`
15:01	mcohen	ok, i'll try that. i removed the :main in project.clj but now the trace changed to https://gist.github.com/3085516
15:02	technomancy	ok, it looks like probably the clojure jar wasn't downloaded correctly
15:02	technomancy	shouldn't happen with lein2 going forward with any luck
15:04	uvtc	One great thing about lein is that you can so easily start over again from scratch. Just delete/rename your ~/.m2, ~/.lein, and your ~/bin/lein script, and just start fresh.
15:04	foxdonut	LFS=Lein From Scratch
15:04	dyba	Can anyone tell me why (= 'clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap (class (hash-map))) is not true?
15:05	mcohen	wow, looks like it fetched everything, but still no joy
15:05	mcohen	https://gist.github.com/3085516
15:05	hiredman	,(type 'clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap)
15:05	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
15:05	hiredman	,(type clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap)
15:05	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
15:05	hiredman	,(type (class (hash-map)))
15:05	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
15:05	dyba	ah, ok
15:05	technomancy	mcohen: does it happen with projects using the default template?
15:06	dyba	hiredman: I was working under a wrong assumption when I wrote the test
15:06	technomancy	it's somewhat unfortunate that they are visually indistinguishable
15:06	foxdonut	,(= clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap (class (hash-map)))
15:06	clojurebot	true
15:06	dyba	see i wanted to get the string of the class name and compare it to the result i get w/ (class (hash-map))
15:07	mcohen	technomancy: yeah i think so. basically, lein repl runs fine in an empty dir, but if i type lein new app <name> and then cd into and run the repl i get the error
15:07	augustl	is there a way to get a hold of the "project" that you pass to a leiningen plugin? Want to write a script for initiating the test run myself, but to reuse existing code I need that "project" :)
15:07	dyba	oh, i see, I just got to get rid of the quote. :)
15:07	technomancy	mcohen: what about in `lein new myapp`?
15:07	technomancy	augustl: try the lein-pprint plugin
15:07	dyba	thanks <hiredman>!
15:08	foxdonut	anyone else picture hiredman as an assassin?
15:08	mcohen	yeah, just tried. same thing
15:08	augustl	technomancy: cool, thanks
15:08	mcohen	download clojure-1.4.0.jar though that time
15:09	augustl	technomancy: how do I invoke "lein pprint" without shelling out?
15:10	technomancy	augustl: I don't know what that means
15:10	augustl	technomancy: I want to write a .clj file to use as a script to start my test run. In it I want to invoke the lein-midje to initiate the test run. To do that I need the "project".
15:11	hiredman	http://www.mylibrarybook.com/books/702/William-Gibson/Count-Zero-40.html
15:11	augustl	so I need to invoke "lein pprint" from that script, and I'm wondering if shelling out to call that command is the only way
15:11	technomancy	what does "use as a script" mean?
15:12	augustl	technomancy: invoke it via the command line
15:12	technomancy	you mean like `java -cp [...]`?
15:12	augustl	java -jar path/to/clojure.jar run-tests.clj
15:12	augustl	or something like that
15:12	technomancy	why do you want to do that?
15:13	augustl	so I can control the lifecycle of the test run, none of the testing tools I've found has the hooks I want
15:13	augustl	namely, doing something before the entire suite starts running
15:13	Cheiron	Hi. I want to send a POST request to Ring app. a basic idea how to do it?
15:13	technomancy	ok, you can do it by hand, but you'll have a lot less wheel-reinventing if you write it as a leiningen plugin
15:13	mcohen	can't imagine what it could be, but i'm guessing something on my machine must be borked somewhere. thank you for the help technomancy
15:13	technomancy	mcohen: sorry, I have no idea what's going on there. never seen anything like it =\
15:13	augustl	technomancy: great, I'll investigate that
15:14	augustl	Cheiron: a real one, or a mocked one?
15:14	mcohen	i'll report back what it was when i figure it out
15:14	foxdonut	hiredman: awesome
15:14	technomancy	mcohen: feel free to open an issue on the leinigen github tracker
15:14	Cheiron	augustl: ?
15:14	mcohen	ok, thanks
15:14	augustl	technomancy: that means having the script in a separate project as far as I can tell (since the plugin needs to be a dependency), but it's better than nothing :)
15:15	augustl	Cheiron: do you want to mount your ring app to a http server and do requests on it, or is in-process mocks OK?
15:15	technomancy	augustl: you can put it in the tasks/ dir and then have a .lein-classpath file containing just "tasks"
15:15	technomancy	hm; I need to make that better-documented
15:15	augustl	technomancy: oh, great
15:15	Cheiron	augustl: i will deploy it under immutant
15:15	Cheiron	it will be mounted
15:15	technomancy	it would probably be better to fix the existing plugin to do what you want, but that's a good way to start out and experiment
15:16	augustl	Cheiron: use any old http client then :) There are a few, I use clj-http.
15:16	augustl	technomancy: got an example of such a task anywhere?
15:17	technomancy	augustl: read PLUGINS.md in the doc/ dir of leiningen
15:17	Cheiron	augustl: I mean how to define a function in Ring that will accept POST requests (kind of REST API). forgive my ignorance but never did ring dev before
15:17	augustl	Cheiron: oh, I misunderstood your question. Just check the method of the request?
15:17	augustl	Cheiron: I've never used Ring directly for any "real" applications though, I tend to use compojure which is a routing DSL on top of Ring
15:18	Cheiron	augustl: will check that
15:18	Cheiron	any tool to generate documentations such as the official Clojure libs docs?
15:19	tcrawley	Cheiron: those are generated by autodoc
15:19	technomancy	Cheiron: yes, but please don't use them unless you have already written prose documentation
15:20	technomancy	http://jacobian.org/writing/great-documentation/what-to-write/
15:20	augustl	technomancy: made tasks/run-tests.clj, put http://pastie.org/4233299 in it, added "tasks" to .lein-classpath, how do I invoke it?
15:20	technomancy	augustl: should be tasks/leiningen/run_tests.clj
15:20	technomancy	then just `lein run-tests` should work
15:21	Cheiron	may I ask where is the "autodoc" ?
15:21	augustl	then it shows up in "lein help" as leiningen.run-tests Problem loading: Could not locate leiningen/run_tests__init.class or leiningen/run_tests.clj on classpath:
15:21	Cheiron	technomancy: that is a great reference!
15:21	tcrawley	Cheiron: http://tomfaulhaber.github.com/autodoc/
15:22	augustl	nvm, hyphens vs underscores in clojure file names ftw :)
15:22	Cheiron	tcrawley: thanks!
15:22	uvtc	Cheiron: there's also https://github.com/weavejester/codox , http://fogus.me/fun/marginalia/ , and https://github.com/dakrone/lein-clojuredocs .
15:22	amalloy	technomancy: does my documentation have to be prose? verse sounds so much more interesting
15:23	technomancy	amalloy: I guess free verse could probably work.
15:23	technomancy	if you can fit it into a sonnet, I salute you
15:23	scriptor	no documentation epics?
15:24	amalloy	jiraph: a database in which to store your stuff ;; shakespeare-style
15:24	technomancy	amalloy: you're already in iambic pentameter; good start
15:24	amalloy	that was the idea, yes
15:24	aperiodic	dactyllic hexameter > iambic pentameter
15:24	sduckett	mmm...sea shanties...
15:24	amalloy	i forget what a dactyl is
15:25	uvtc	Cheiron: for prose/verse/sonnet/novella documentation, I suggest just making a directory containing of .md files. Displays nicely on github and simple.
15:25	aperiodic	menin paidea thea, peliadiao achileus
15:25	uvtc	s/of//
15:25	technomancy	terza rima for lyfe
15:25	amalloy	well, that would be useful if i knew how to pronounce latin
15:25	uvtc	Latin is all greek to me.
15:26	technomancy	sing, muse, the rage of achileus, peleus' son
15:26	scriptor	from what I've heard, roman latin sounded a lot like italian
15:26	aperiodic	(inc technomancy)
15:26	nDuff	Heh.
15:26	Cheiron	uvtc: what is prose/verse/sonnet/novella?
15:26	technomancy	that's about the limit of my greek =)
15:26	aperiodic	mine too! :)
15:28	aperiodic	still doesn't have anything on Zeus
15:28	aperiodic	dude just could not keep it in his pants
15:28	uvtc	Cheiron: just extending technomancy's joke there. I mean standalone docs, as opposed to API docs (in your docstrings).
15:28	ToxicFrog	aperiodic: let's face it, there are very few classical gods, demigods, rulers, or heroes who could~
15:28	aperiodic	s/pants/toga/
15:28	aperiodic	ToxicFrog: Odysseus
15:29	aperiodic	but yeah, he is the exception
15:29	scriptor	nah, Odysseus failed to temptation too
15:29	scriptor	it's in the first few pages he's in
15:31	aperiodic	clearly it's been a while since I read the epics
15:32	rainerschuster	hi all. I'd like to port some contrib libs over to .NET. I've read the articles from David porting the libs. Is there a central repo or list, or some kind of coordination?
15:34	rainerschuster	ah ok, i've found a hint: http://www.myclojureadventure.com/p/clojureclr-ports-page-purpose-of-this.html
15:59	augustl	technomancy: I'm getting "Could not locate leiningen/core/eval__init.class or leiningen/core/eval.clj on classpath:" when attempting to require leiningen.core.eval from my custom "task" thing, any ideas?
16:00	antares_	rainerschuster: http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Clojure+Contrib
16:00	antares_	rainerschuster: take a look and then ask on the mailing list
16:01	rainerschuster	antares_: thanks
16:17	kenneth	hey all
16:17	kenneth	so i've been struggling with using a native dependency but i finally figured my problem out
16:18	kenneth	the jar installed by lein is broken, but when installing it manually i can get it to work
16:18	kenneth	is there a way to specify an external jar to include in lein?
16:31	technomancy	kenneth: you can do `lein install` to get it in your local repo, but of course you should push your fixes upstream
16:31	technomancy	augustl: not sure; it works for me
16:32	kenneth	i didn't do any fixes—i just compiled from github source, as opposed to using the clojar which is broken
16:32	kenneth	how does lein install work?
16:32	technomancy	oh, well you should let the maintainer know their deployed version is broken
16:32	technomancy	kenneth: it creates a jar and puts it in the local repository (~/.m2)
16:33	kenneth	ah! so you do `lein install /path/to/jar`?
16:33	technomancy	no, just `lein install` from the project directory
16:33	kenneth	how does it know how to get the jar?
16:34	technomancy	it just makes a jar out of the current project
16:48	wingy	"God created this world with Lisp" :)
16:48	Raynes	He actually hacked it together with Perl.
16:51	duck1123	Which explains all the oddities in the universe
16:54	TimMc	With a 6-day deadline, I wouldn't be surprised if it were mostly shell scripts.
17:04	AWizzArd	hiredman: ping (please look into your prv chat)
17:04	wingy	is core.logic used in Datomic?
17:04	AWizzArd	wingy: no
17:05	wingy	oh .. looked like it
17:09	AWizzArd	wingy: it is based on Datalog: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datalog
17:10	drocamor	Hi
17:10	wingy	AWizzArd: what i meant is Datomic using core.logic under the hood?
17:11	wingy	https://github.com/clojure/core.logic/wiki they mention Datomic
17:12	drocamor	I have a lazy seq (an AWS SQS queue provided by cheshire) and I'm trying to process it 100 items at a time so I can bundle them together and put them some place.
17:12	amalloy	wingy: dnolen's talking about teaching core.logic to read facts from datomic
17:12	drocamor	And this IRC client is garbage
17:12	drocamor	brb
17:12	dnolen_	wingy: rhickey just asked that I create an example of wiring up Datomic indexes to core.logic.
17:12	dnolen_	wingy: you can provide any data source really tho.
17:18	drocamor	I'm having some trouble processing an SQS queue using bandalore. I need to group together 100 messages at a time to do something with them, but when i use partition on the lazy-seq it ends up not deleting the messages. Can anyone provide some insight?
17:19	kenneth	how would i convert a byte[] into a string?
17:19	kenneth	(utf8)
17:20	pjstadig	new String(bytes, "UTF-8")
17:20	Raynes	&(String. (.getBytes "foo") "UTF-8")
17:20	lazybot	⇒ "foo"
17:20	Raynes	Round tripping!
17:20	pjstadig	trippy!
17:37	wingy	core.logic is very awesome
17:38	wingy	core.match as well .. clojure is too great compared to other langs ... learned like never before in just 2 weeks
17:47	dikidoom	> 1
17:47	dikidoom	-> 1
17:48	dikidoom	=> 1
17:49	dikidoom	a quick question: (range 1 2.6 (/ 1.6 3)) returns a list of 4 elements, (range 0.1 1.7 (/ 1.6 3)) returns 3. is that to blame on floating point foo or on range? :)
17:50	dikidoom	ah, i meant (range 0 1.6 (/ 1.6 3)) that second time.
17:51	dikidoom	&(range 0 1.6 (/ 1.6 3))
17:51	lazybot	⇒ (0 0.5333333333333333 1.0666666666666667)
17:52	dikidoom	&(range 1 2.6 (/ 1.6 3))
17:52	lazybot	⇒ (1 1.5333333333333332 2.0666666666666664 2.5999999999999996)
18:02	gtrak``	&[(eval ''1) (eval '''1)]
18:02	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! eval is bad!
18:03	scriptor	This incident will be reported
18:18	aaelony	What's the best clojars lib for sending emails? (I don't need anything especially heavy, just something that can send out alert emails from time to time.) Simple-email? Funnel-mailer? mailfinger? I see many choices....
18:21	jeremyheiler	aaelony: postal looks pretty good, https://github.com/drewr/postal
18:21	andres-v	aaelony: I don't if it's the best, but here is another one, https://github.com/drewr/postal
18:21	aaelony	jeremyheiler and andres-v: cool, thanks
18:21	jeremyheiler	(at least until i get my act together with Lime lol)
18:23	aaelony	wish there were ratings/rankings for clojars libs to help discern
18:24	amalloy	google helpfully sorts results for "clojure mail library" by popularity :P
18:25	aaelony	never heard of google
18:25	amalloy	it's like a www directory listing but with more features
18:25	aaelony	:)
18:25	jeremyheiler	I am glad my completely unfinished and unused library gets good google ranks then lol
18:26	amalloy	jeremyheiler: second place out of two, right? sounds about right if you're not done with it
18:27	scriptor	well, it has an actual website
18:28	scriptor	maybe the algorithms like that
18:28	jeremyheiler	lol
18:28	jeremyheiler	there are a few more, they jsut get lost after all the clojure.org pages that are in the results
18:29	scriptor	let's see if adding -clojure.org helps any
18:38	haspaker	God, LISP syntax actually starts to make sense to me now
18:38	haspaker	Never thought it would happen
18:41	wingy	haspaker: since when?
18:41	OlegYch\|h	eh
18:41	OlegYch\|h	never thoought lisp had syntax
18:41	scriptor	just wait, it'll all seem so simple that you'll want to make your own interpreter next
18:42	scriptor	lisp has syntax, just not much
18:42	Chousuke	I don't understand it when people say lisp has no syntax :/
18:42	amalloy	Chousuke: it's an exciting tag-line; even if it's verifiably nonsense it almost does a good job of getting the point across
18:42	Chousuke	it actually has extensible syntax
18:43	Chousuke	it's just that there are very few syntactic elements so it mostly looks uniform
18:44	haspaker	wingy: Just sat down and realized I can actually _see past_ all the the god damn parantheses. I couldn't do that two days ago
18:44	OlegYch\|h	it's just that lisp syntax is so minimal that it's negligible
18:44	Chousuke	OlegYch\|h: the thing is, every macro has its own syntax
18:45	OlegYch\|h	true, but it's more of a form than syntax
18:45	Chousuke	they all make use of the same basic elements (in clojure, mostly lists, vectors and symbols) but the interpretation of those elements is left to the macro
18:45	scriptor	now we're just entering a debate on semantics :)
18:45	amalloy	OlegYch\|h: no, that's nonsense. (let (asdff) (blah) (lol)) is illegal specifically because it violates the syntax (synonym: grammar) defined by the let macro
18:47	Chousuke	one thing I like about clojure is that it actually has more idiomatic and useful syntactic building blocks compared to CL and Scheme
18:47	amalloy	scriptor: i suspect you are trying to start a debate about the difference between semantics and syntax
18:47	Chousuke	so you can design more expressive and readable syntax for macros.
18:47	nDuff	Hmm.
18:48	scriptor	amalloy: not quite, more on the difference between form and syntax
18:48	scriptor	so linguistic semantics
18:48	Chousuke	of course in CL or scheme you can always extend the reader but that has other problems
18:54	dnolen	Chousuke: extend the reader in Scheme?
18:56	dnolen	Chousuke: I suppose you mean that some popular implementations allow it
18:56	dnolen	nDuff: another CLJS bug? or bug in another lib?
18:57	nDuff	dnolen: I reported this one earlier, you asked me to file a ticket, and I put it off.
18:57	dnolen	nDuff: ah
19:00	SegFaultAX\|work2	It absolutely floors me how expressive clojure is. I was just looking at clout... an entire route matching library in less than 150 LOC.
19:06	mebaran151	Hey #clojure, what's the best way to create an object to pass as options in Clojurescript?
19:07	mebaran151	I have a jquery library I need to interop with
19:08	emezeske	mebaran151: ibdknox/jayq has a clj->js function that does that
19:08	yonatane	is there any point in interoping with clojure's source?
19:08	mebaran151	thanks emezeske
19:09	emezeske	mebaran151: I think if you google "clj->js" there are a few different implementations floating around
19:09	mebaran151	I wish Clojurescript exported a native constructor (something like (js-map "a" 1 "b" 2) )
19:18	mebaran151	btw, emezeske, I'm working on a fileupload widget for this site (partially in bootstrap); any suggestions?
19:19	emezeske	mebaran151: None come to mind
19:26	nDuff	Blerg.
19:32	SegFaultAX\|work2	Does anyone use Jetty + Nginx to serve their Clojure web applications?
19:33	technomancy	SegFaultAX\|work2: sure
19:34	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: Would you be willing to share your nginx configuration?
19:34	technomancy	SegFaultAX\|work2: oh, I don't set the nginx part up myself
19:35	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: I mostly just want to see how the proxy pass is setup.
19:35	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: Do you have access to it?
19:35	technomancy	no, it's just used in the heroku routing layer
19:35	technomancy	I mean I probably could but it wouldn't be anything like what you would want =)
19:36	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: Do you work at Heroku?
19:36	amalloy	yonatane: i don't think you'll get an answer to that question because it doesn't make sense. what does it mean to interop with clojure's source?
19:36	technomancy	SegFaultAX\|work2: yeah
19:36	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: Would it be in the build pack?
19:37	amalloy	SegFaultAX\|work2: i'll find 4clojure's nginx setup
19:37	SegFaultAX\|work2	Probably not...
19:37	technomancy	SegFaultAX\|work2: that's the main thing, yeah
19:37	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: Thanks!
19:38	technomancy	SegFaultAX\|work2: oh, I mean that's the main thing I do at heroku. the build pack doesn't contain any nginx config.
19:38	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: What's the main thing you do? Manage the build pack?
19:39	technomancy	yeah, the Clojure buildpack plus some other general build infrastructure; also the heroku client installers
19:39	amalloy	SegFaultAX\|work2: https://gist.github.com/5e766a7ab6f1976eeeb0
19:39	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: That's pretty cool. I did see the talk from the guy who manages the Erlang buildpack at SF Erlang conf.
19:40	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: Kind of a neat way to handle deploying lots and lots of websites.
19:40	emezeske	nDuff: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/wiki/Using-a-Git-Checkout-of-the-ClojureScript-Compiler
19:40	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: That's it? Awesome! So all the other routing configuration is handled by Ring?
19:41	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: (Or whatever you happen to be using)
19:41	amalloy	yes
19:41	amalloy	for higher performance, you could set up nginx to handle some static files for you
19:41	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: That's easy enough.
19:42	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: I really just wanted to see how the proxy pass was handled.
19:42	amalloy	but ring is fast, and 4clojure feels very snappy in every browser, from what i hear
19:42	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: For serving other types of Java web applications, the configuration is a bit more involved, eg http://wiki.nginx.org/JavaServers
19:42	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: Do you have to configure a context for your domain? Can I see that, too if you do?
19:43	amalloy	only if you want to serve multiple applications out of the same jetty container
19:43	amalloy	we just run embedded jetty in the 4clojure process
19:43	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: Ah, so you use uberjar (or equiv) and bundle the application server in your war file?
19:44	amalloy	lein run in production, baby
19:45	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: I don't see jetty in the deps for 4clojure, how do you bundle it with the application?
19:46	ibdknox	lein run is for winners.
19:47	amalloy	i dunno, actually. we must get it transitively from something like ring
19:47	ibdknox	ring brings it in with the ring-jetty-adapter
19:47	amalloy	yeah
19:47	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: Oh, I see.
19:48	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: Sorry to keep bothering you, but how do you deploy the application? I imagine you git-push and have some post-receive-hooks do the rest?
19:48	ibdknox	SegFaultAX\|work2: http://toroid.org/ams/git-website-howto
19:48	ibdknox	that's a nice simple way of setting it up ^
19:49	SegFaultAX\|work2	ibdknox: Isn't that what I just said? :D
19:49	amalloy	no, i just ssh in and deploy manually. none of us are terribly good at server admin
19:49	ibdknox	SegFaultAX\|work2: clearly it was for amalloy's benefit ;)
19:49	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: So is there downtime on every code upgrade, then?
19:49	amalloy	yeah, somewhere in the neighborhood of ten seconds i think
19:50	ssutch	say i want to wrap forms in noir to add a csrf token validation, what would be the most sane way to approach that?
19:50	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: Is there a god/monit/other process that makes sure jetty doesn't die?
19:51	ibdknox	ssutch: write a new form function that takes the same stuff as hiccup's and just adds your csrf in there
19:51	amalloy	there's a cron job restarting it if it stops responding
19:51	ssutch	ibdknox what about validation?
19:52	amalloy	if you figure out a better way to do all of this i'm sure we'd welcome the help. currently it sorta chugs along and works most of the time, and eventually repairs itself when it stops working
19:52	ibdknox	ssutch: do it as middleware
19:54	ssutch	ibdknox i'll try it out, thanks!
19:54	ibdknox	ssutch: np, good luck :)
19:55	ibdknox	ssutch: oh, I forgot about this
19:55	ibdknox	ssutch: https://github.com/weavejester/ring-anti-forgery
19:55	ibdknox	use that
19:55	ibdknox	even better :D
19:55	Raynes	ibdknox: Have you seen validateur
19:55	Raynes	https://github.com/michaelklishin/validateur
19:56	ssutch	hey that looks exactly like what i wanted to do
19:56	Raynes	Noir also has validation middleware. Not sure how these compare.
19:56	SegFaultAX\|work2	Is there anything that weavejester hasn't already implemented?
19:58	amalloy	i hear he's still struggling on getting his traveling-salesman solution down from O(n^2)
19:59	SegFaultAX\|work2	:D
20:00	Raynes	amalloy: Careful, that joke's an antique.
20:02	ibdknox	Raynes: yeah, when I looked at it, it didn't really seem to serve the same purpose
20:04	Raynes	ibdknox: It doesn't?
20:05	ibdknox	Raynes: maybe it does now? I dunno. It is certainly order of magnitude more complicated
20:05	SegFaultAX\|work2	How is that joke an antique?
20:05	ibdknox	orders*
20:06	Raynes	SegFaultAX\|work2: Implies it is an old joke that people have said before.
20:06	SegFaultAX\|work2	Raynes: Oh, yea.
20:07	SegFaultAX\|work2	Raynes: But so is "emacs is a great operating system... now all it needs is a decent text editor" but I still chuckle every time :)
20:08	SegFaultAX\|work2	Raynes: Also, for your reading pleasure: http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html
20:11	carlo_au	Is Light Table trying to do what Emacs + SLIME do?
20:11	SegFaultAX\|work2	carlo_au: Not really.
20:13	ibdknox	only in so far as both let you write software :)
20:13	ibdknox	insofar*
20:14	carlo_au	SegFaultAX\|work2: what'sthe main point of difference?
20:15	ibdknox	carlo_au: have you seen any of my videos?
20:15	carlo_au	ibdknox: maybe, url?
20:15	ibdknox	carlo_au: http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/04/12/light-table---a-new-ide-concept/
20:16	dnolen	carlo_au: I don't see Emacs switching to WebKit for starters.
20:16	SegFaultAX\|work2	carlo_au: It's just different.
20:16	ibdknox	carlo_au: http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/05/21/the-future-is-specific/
20:16	SegFaultAX\|work2	carlo_au: Emacs is a text editor, slime is a lisp client.
20:16	carlo_au	ibdknox: oh, you're Chris?
20:16	ibdknox	I am indeed
20:16	carlo_au	ah :)
20:19	SegFaultAX\|work2	carlo_au: In my opinion the main "point of difference" is the change in perspective of what a code unit is. Traditionally IDE's force you to think of a file as an increment. Light table challenges this idea.
20:19	SegFaultAX\|work2	carlo_au: There are some other novel (and not so novel) ideas at play, but for me the change in the way code is manipulated is a big factor.
20:20	ibdknox	SegFaultAX\|work2: before it's all said and done I hope to change the notion of what editing means
20:20	SegFaultAX\|work2	ibdknox: That's the impression I've got from your talks etc.
20:20	ibdknox	speaking of talks
20:20	SegFaultAX\|work2	ibdknox: And in general I like the idea.
20:20	ibdknox	You guys should come to my OSCON talk :)
20:20	ibdknox	It should be really neat
20:20	lynaghk	ibdknox: when are you getting in to PDX?
20:20	ibdknox	dnolen: everything was working for you again right?
20:21	SegFaultAX\|work2	ibdknox: Most of the other functionality (quick access to docs, running code in real-time, etc.) are well covered by other power editors (vim, etc.)
20:21	ibdknox	lynaghk: weds afternoon
20:21	lynaghk	ibdknox: we should make some time to parrrty.
20:21	lynaghk	ibdknox: oh, this Wednesday?
20:21	ibdknox	next
20:21	ibdknox	I'm only coming to give my talk unfortunately :(
20:21	lynaghk	you flying out Thursday?
20:21	ibdknox	friday
20:21	ibdknox	so I have a little buffer
20:22	lynaghk	party buffer, dude.
20:22	lynaghk	though I bet a lot of people are going to be looking for you.
20:22	ibdknox	lol
20:23	ibdknox	lynaghk: we should definitely catch up while I'm there, you giving a talk?
20:23	lynaghk	ibdknox: yeah, I have a talk on Friday at 10 a.m.
20:24	ibdknox	C2 stuff?
20:24	lynaghk	ibdknox: I'll probably be bumming around OSCON a fair bit though, since it's something like ten minutes from where I live
20:24	dnolen	ibdknox: yes!
20:24	lynaghk	ibdknox: yeah, though more of a higher level overview than what I gave at Clojure/West---in particular talking about some of the advantages and tradeoffs of using Clojure vs. JavaScript.
20:25	SegFaultAX\|work2	lynaghk: What about ClojureScript vs CoffeeScript?
20:25	ibdknox	dnolen: I wrote a launcher in java that should make all of this much more painless. Just need to test it out. The install/use will then just be download this jar, double click it
20:25	ibdknox	lynaghk: cool
20:26	ibdknox	lynaghk: well, as time draws near, I'll let you know my plans
20:26	lynaghk	In particular I'm getting really excited about Clojure's soon-to-be-cross-platform domination---I looked into writing C2 for CoreGraphics (iOS rendering tech) via Lua ClojureScript this past weekend. And this morning I find out there's a solid looking Clojure -> project. So now I have options!
20:26	carlo_au	ibdknox: that sql example is really nice (watching the video)
20:26	lynaghk	ibdknox: sounds good, you've got my cell in your email somewhere I believe.
20:27	lynaghk	SegFaultAX\|work2: CoffeeScript is JavaScript, so I don't think there's much of a distinction worth talking about. It's a bit better, but not wildly different (which is its big advantage/disadvantage)
20:27	lynaghk	ibdknox: are you familiar with R at all?
20:27	ibdknox	lynaghk: only at a very high level
20:28	ibdknox	I've seen it used, never used it myself
20:28	SegFaultAX\|work2	lynaghk: Is that different from using ClojureScript's JS backend?
20:28	technomancy	eliminating the statement/expression distinction places it at least above python
20:28	SegFaultAX\|work2	lynaghk: The result is the same.
20:28	lynaghk	ibdknox: ah. The "ggplot2" library for R is a really great exploratory data visualization library.
20:28	ibdknox	SegFaultAX\|work2: not really, CLJS has new semantics, coffeescript does not
20:29	lynaghk	It's at a much higher level than C2. I'm toying with the idea of porting it to Clojure/C2 and maybe mashing it up with some of this Session stuff kovas has been working on.
20:29	ibdknox	lynaghk: I might have to check that out. I was messing around with Incanter the other night making histograms of usage patterns :)
20:29	SegFaultAX\|work2	ibdknox: Hmm, really? Can you cite some specific examples? I'd like to read up on this.
20:30	lynaghk	ibdknox: R is a quirky language, but yeah. I only use it these days to play with ggplot2, which is great for doing initial visual analyses of datasets.
20:30	ibdknox	SegFaultAX\|work2: just think about truthiness
20:30	technomancy	does session use nrepl?
20:30	lynaghk	hiredman: anything in particular? There's a lot of pieces he's working on as part of that project
20:30	ibdknox	hiredman: what has you excited?
20:30	hiredman	technomancy: I have a pull request that switches it to nrepl
20:31	technomancy	hiredman: cool
20:31	hiredman	ibdknox: I like the idea of a computational document, sort of relaxed/more flexible spreadsheet
20:31	SegFaultAX\|work2	ibdknox: Go on? Once the CLJS is compiled to javascript the broken truthiness is still there. How is CLJS making it less ugly different from, say, CoffeeScript making it less ugly?
20:32	lynaghk	SegFaultAX\|work2: because you the programmer get to work with non-broken truthiness.
20:32	SegFaultAX\|work2	Does CoffeeScript not provide that? TIL.
20:32	ibdknox	It didn't
20:32	ibdknox	I dunno if it does now
20:32	technomancy	coffeescript does provide new semantics
20:32	SegFaultAX\|work2	Any other particular examples?
20:32	ibdknox	hiredman: yeah, absolutely. There's goodness to that idea
20:32	technomancy	everything is an expression
20:32	lynaghk	SegFaultAX\|work2: it has some nice things like the existential operator, but you can still find plenty of ways to shoot yourself in the foot
20:33	hiredman	lynaghk: just progress really, I want to see what I think of his new stuff, there are some issues I have with the existing implementation, I don't think I completely understand why he thinks reader tags are super, so I am interested to see
20:33	lynaghk	SegFaultAX\|work2: clj has immutable semantics, much richer data structures (e.g., sets), lazy sequences (so you can mess with infinite lists easily, &c. &c.
20:33	ibdknox	hiredman: I think those concepts will fit really well into LightTable when it's ready for it
20:33	SegFaultAX\|work2	lynaghk: I'm not yet familiar with the existential operator. Is it a similar concept to existentials in Haskell?
20:34	hiredman	it seems to me the existing loop idea needs to be split, so you have a loop as a thing running in the clojure server, which is has a proxy loop in cljs in the browser
20:34	lynaghk	SegFaultAX\|work2: it just lets you see if something is undefined vs. falsey, which is tricky to do right is JS because it's so flexible
20:34	SegFaultAX\|work2	lynaghk: Ah, those are some good examples.
20:34	SegFaultAX\|work2	lynaghk: Yea, that's a good point.
20:35	hiredman	either that, or the protocol between the server and the browser needs to be a little more complex than prn/read-string because somethings (like vars) prn in clojure but cannot be read in clojurescript
20:35	hiredman	and somethings like #<Object> can be prn'ed but not read
20:35	lynaghk	hiredman: yeah. I think tagged literals are nice to read but I'm not sure how fundamentally there is any difference between them and, say, XML tags.
20:37	ibdknox	I don't want them to start appearing in code :(
20:38	lynaghk	ibdknox: tagged literals? Why not? I would have expected you to be all over that, so that Light Table could, e.g., read #color[:rgb, 1, 223, 39] in someone's codebase and render it as a colorpicker.
20:38	hiredman	but you can already embed incanter charts in session (chart -> image -> data uri) which is always the first thing I try to do with a gui repl
20:39	lynaghk	hiredman: are they dynamic?
20:39	hiredman	nope
20:39	lynaghk	hiredman: if you're into that kind of thing, after I watched his talk I spent a few hours putting together a "manipulate" demo that uses Himera to dynamically compile mathematical fns, extracts the free vars from them, and gives you sliders: https://github.com/lynaghk/c2-demos/tree/manipulate/manipulate
20:40	hiredman	neat
20:40	lynaghk	it's super rough, and nothing really too exciting. What I'm interested in is how you generalize that in Clojure to cover the same kinds of things that Mathematica's manipulate covers---anything renderable, basically. Plots render as plots, text as text, shapes as shapes...
20:43	hiredman	yeah, it is interesting, you need a set of rules for turning things in to "renderable datastructures" (tagged literals?) and then manipulate has to know how to manipulate those
20:43	lynaghk	hiredman: I think the open "IRenderable" protocol is something that Kovas is thinking about as part of Session.
20:45	hiredman	yeah, but you don't want to have things taht know how to render themselves, you want things than can be translated in to a manipulatable/renderable data representation
20:45	lynaghk	hiredman: Since we're using Clojure I just assume that everything we get is an easily-manipulable data structure = )
20:47	hiredman	lynaghk: that does help
20:49	lynaghk	hiredman: primarily I'm interested in seeing what a family of protocols will look like for different kinds of UI widgets, especially with some reactive stuff e.g. https://github.com/halgari/reactive
20:53	ssutch	anyone else tried the lein-light plugin? i am getting FileNotFoundException - could not locate leiningen/core/eval...
21:26	beffbernard	how do you create an list initialized to 0 of size n?
21:27	beffbernard	I did it this way and I feel bad: (map (fn [a] 0) (take 24 (range)))
21:27	gfredericks	,(repeat 5 0)
21:27	clojurebot	(0 0 0 0 0)
21:28	gfredericks	beffbernard: though if you're planning on making random updates to it you probably want a vector
21:28	beffbernard	thank you sir.. I feel dumb now
21:28	beffbernard	gfredericks: sure
21:33	brehaut	why is clojure.core/repeat implemented with (take n (range)) rather than just (range n)? is it something to do with chunked seqs?
21:34	brehaut	wait, ignore me
21:38	gfredericks	man #clojure needs some self esteem
21:40	wkelly	lol
21:47	gtuckerkellogg	heh
21:56	unnali	brehaut: you're the best!
21:57	brehaut	lol
21:59	madsy	I see that atoms in ClojureScript call a function whenever it's referenced. Is it potensially faster to copy the dereferenced atom into a let if I need to read it multiple times?
22:10	gfredericks	madsy: that sounds like a reasonable thing to say; and for clojure-proper probably safer
22:20	locojay1	hi how can i destruct in argument a nested map
22:22	gfredericks	,(let [nested-map {:foo {:bar 12}}, func (fn [{{bar :bar} :foo}] bar)] (func nested-map))
22:22	clojurebot	12
22:22	locojay1	cool thanks
22:23	gfredericks	locojay1: if it were me I'd use get-in or -> instead of destructuring
22:25	locojay1	yeah just learned about get-in but just wanted to know how it would work.
22:26	amalloy	&(macroexpand-1 '(let [nested-map {:foo {:bar 12}}, func (fn [{{bar :bar} :foo}] bar)] (func nested-map))) ;; if you're curious
22:26	lazybot	⇒ (let* [nested-map {:foo {:bar 12}} func (fn [{{bar :bar} :foo}] bar)] (func nested-map))
22:26	amalloy	oh
22:27	amalloy	&(macroexpand-1 '(fn [{{bar :bar} :foo}] bar)
22:27	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading, starting at line 1
22:27	amalloy	&(macroexpand-1 '(fn [{{bar :bar} :foo}] bar))
22:27	lazybot	⇒ (fn* ([p__21478] (clojure.core/let [{{bar :bar} :foo} p__21478] bar)))
22:27	amalloy	&(macroexpand-1 '(let [{{bar :bar} :foo} x] bar))
22:28	lazybot	⇒ (let* [map__21486 x map__21486 (if (clojure.core/seq? map__21486) (clojure.core/apply clojure.core/hash-map map__21486) map__21486) map__21487 (clojure.core/get map__21486 :foo) map__21487 (if (clojure.core/seq? map__21487) (clojure.core/apply clojure.core/hash-... https://www.refheap.com/paste/3546
23:01	madsy	lein-cljsbuild have ways to launch repls connected to the browser. Like lein cljsbuild repl-launch. Is it possible to make those work with slime/swank, instead of using them as lisp-inferior in emacs?
23:02	madsy	I mean, it is possible with clojurescript the manual way, but that requires me to launch swank first, and then initiate the cljs repl afterwards inside slime.
23:03	madsy	Not exactly a nice workflow
23:37	ssutch	is there a way to optionally-require
23:57	ivan	ssutch: require inside a function and use (resolve '...) to reference the required thing